Game of Thrones: Oathkeeper
April 27, 2014 10:58 PM - Season 4, Episode 4 - Subscribe

The fourth episode featured stories from Kings Landing, the sea, and lots of stuff in the north and north of the wall, and maybe possibly put the season's biggest mystery to rest.

HODOR!
posted by mathowie (439 comments total) 7 users marked this as a favorite
 
If Ser Pounce is cut from the show, we riot!!!

Ser Pounce is accounted for, so you can call off the riot.
posted by homunculus at 11:02 PM on April 27, 2014 [7 favorites]


Unless you've already payed for the torches and pitchforks and they're non-refundable, in which case do what you think is best.
posted by homunculus at 11:02 PM on April 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


Dear Jaime: either get a hook or learn how to fight with a cutlass or rapier because a two-handed or bastard- sword is no longer your deal kthxbai.
posted by lonefrontranger at 11:03 PM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


OK SO

at the very end of the episode, with the baby -- the White Walker-type thing that did the thing to the baby was NOT like the other white walkers. Its face is different, its hands are different, it has weird horn things. What the hell is going on? Are the White Walkers working for that weird ice demon thing?
posted by KathrynT at 11:06 PM on April 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


Ser Pounce is accounted for, so you can call off the riot.

I'm disappointed that they included him in their policy of aging up the children. :)
posted by Jacqueline at 11:06 PM on April 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


Does anyone else get the impression that Daenarys might have inherited a bit of her father's madness?
posted by Jacqueline at 11:07 PM on April 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


Wow, so, that last scene huh?
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:07 PM on April 27, 2014 [4 favorites]


Does anyone else get the impression that Daenarys might have inherited a bit of her father's madness?

Yes, and I could NOT be happier about that. The shot of her standing in from of a huge black flag while the screams of her enemies wafted up from below? Dany is metal as fuck.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:08 PM on April 27, 2014 [16 favorites]


Bran started on the show as like a 7 year old kid and now he looks like a 24 year old. I wonder how that's going to work for future seasons of the show?
posted by mathowie at 11:08 PM on April 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


That last scene was indeed mind-blowing. Are they implying that Craster is responsible for the return of the White Walkers???
posted by Jacqueline at 11:09 PM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also also: if Natalie Dormer tried to seduce me that way, I would prob betray my mom too.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:09 PM on April 27, 2014 [5 favorites]


I'm straight and so would I!
posted by Jacqueline at 11:11 PM on April 27, 2014 [6 favorites]


Does anyone else get the impression that Daenarys might have inherited a bit of her father's madness?

Yep. I turned to my husband at that point and said "I think she might have a bit of the old Targaryen what-what, you know."
posted by KathrynT at 11:11 PM on April 27, 2014 [8 favorites]


It's like the learning-to-read scene was mirrored in the who-killed-Joffrey scenes. That was pretty heavy handed.

But yay, the Briene and Pod adventures can begin!
posted by rewil at 11:11 PM on April 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


That last scene was indeed mind-blowing. Are they implying that Craster is responsible for the return of the White Walkers???

Not unless he's had waaaaaaay more sons than daughters -- there was that scene at the end of. . . last season? was it at the end of last season? where you had the entire column of white walkers, it looked like there were hundreds of them.
posted by KathrynT at 11:12 PM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


Count me in as having a massive girl-crush on Margaery as well. Also "our little secret"?? *shiver*
posted by lonefrontranger at 11:14 PM on April 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


where you had the entire column of white walkers, it looked like there were hundreds of them. I don't think that was hundreds of White Walkers, I think most of them were wights.
posted by Jacqueline at 11:14 PM on April 27, 2014


What the hell is going on? Are the White Walkers working for that weird ice demon thing?

Maybe the Walkers have different social castes: workers, soldiers, etc. The one with the horns might be a queen, in charge of reproduction. It's interesting that they seem to reproduce by changing humans into Walkers.

Are they implying that Craster is responsible for the return of the White Walkers???

I think it implies that he's contributed to their growth, certainly, but I doubt it's just him. They must get take more children from the Wildlings, too.
posted by homunculus at 11:14 PM on April 27, 2014


at the very end of the episode, with the baby -- the White Walker-type thing that did the thing to the baby was NOT like the other white walkers. Its face is different, its hands are different, it has weird horn things. What the hell is going on?

"Gift for the gods."
posted by Sys Rq at 11:16 PM on April 27, 2014


Dear Jaime: either get a hook or learn how to fight with a cutlass or rapier

That was hilarious. Of course Bronn would hit him with his own hand.
posted by homunculus at 11:17 PM on April 27, 2014


The whole point of either a broadsword or a hand-and-half (aka bastard) sword is that they both require two hands to use effectively. I didn't get a good enough look at the hilt to see if Oathkeeper is a broad or bastard but either way, neither is the correct tool for a one-handed man. You could technically use a hook for some of the two-handed moves but you'd be slower. Better still would be to learn cutlass or rapier and use the hook as a dagger or better yet a sword-breaker.

/western martial arts nerd derail
posted by lonefrontranger at 11:26 PM on April 27, 2014 [7 favorites]


It's interesting that they seem to reproduce by changing humans into Walkers.

The baby seemed pretty cool with it, too; I'm starting to wonder if I should be on Team White Walker, actually...

Also the column of White Walkers/ wights was the closing shot of season 2 I'm pretty sure.
posted by furiousthought at 11:26 PM on April 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


Also: Littlefinger is the creepiest creep who ever creeped his way out of Creepville. That dude is LOATHSOME. I'm starting to wonder if he didn't commit regicide just to get Sansa alone on a boat.
posted by KathrynT at 11:32 PM on April 27, 2014 [14 favorites]


Oh good lord yes Littlefinger is Creepy Creep McCreeperson! I think three different people actually yelled that in synch at our place!
posted by lonefrontranger at 11:34 PM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


Since there seems to be some confusion: Wights vs. White Walkers (the top sections of those wiki pages are show-only so just stop scrolling when you get to the "In the books" header if you want to avoid book information).
posted by Jacqueline at 11:35 PM on April 27, 2014 [4 favorites]


But yay, the Briene and Pod adventures can begin!

I love that Brienne and Pod are a team now.
posted by homunculus at 11:37 PM on April 27, 2014 [3 favorites]


Just rewatched that last scene -- yes, those are mostly wights in the attack column. We only see two Walkers.
posted by KathrynT at 11:38 PM on April 27, 2014 [1 favorite]


BTW, for anyone who can't get enough of Burn Gorman, he's also on AMC's Revolutionary War spy series TURN.
posted by homunculus at 11:39 PM on April 27, 2014


So, about Brienne and Jaime: during the scene where he gave her the sword and the armor, I think he realized that she was smitten with him. And during the scene where he watched her ride away, I think that he realized that he in turn was smitten with her. Did anyone else take it that way?
posted by homunculus at 11:55 PM on April 27, 2014 [11 favorites]


homunculus, I took it EXACTLY that way. Also, Brienne's tiny lip-quiver just devastated me.
posted by KathrynT at 11:57 PM on April 27, 2014 [2 favorites]


Yeah, they're great together.

They portrayed Jaime as completely likeable again in this episode, as if the last episode never happened. But imo it doesn't make his character more complex, it just makes the fact that the showrunners didn't understand what they'd done more jarring.
posted by homunculus at 12:23 AM on April 28, 2014 [21 favorites]


The whole point of either a broadsword or a hand-and-half (aka bastard) sword is that they both require two hands to use effectively. I didn't get a good enough look at the hilt to see if Oathkeeper is a broad or bastard but either way, neither is the correct tool for a one-handed man.

It looked to me like the hilt was designed to be wielded with one hand, which would make sense since it was custom made.

I had a sword called Oathkeeper once. It wasn't that good, though.
posted by homunculus at 12:24 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


it just makes the fact that the showrunners didn't understand what they'd done more jarring.

Yes. Boo, hiss. And Cersei doesn't seem at all upset what happened in the sept, she's just back to being pissy with him and worrying about her son (different son, though). And Jaime's back to being deferential and cozying her along while carrying on with his own agenda. Seems like viewers who didn't catch that the sept scene was supposed to be "complicated" would be left going "huh?"
posted by torticat at 12:33 AM on April 28, 2014


I dunno, I think Cersei was pretty cold towards Jaime in this episode. Maybe Lena Headey decided to play it like a rape despite what the director thinks.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:36 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Cersei seemed 100% done with Jaime, but the rest of Jaime's story was pretty sympathetic, so now the sept scene seems... pointless? random? not the way to get from point A to point B? like, you could have just had them have a big (whispered) argument in the sept and it would have made more sense?
posted by furiousthought at 12:45 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


(the top sections of those wiki pages are show-only so just stop scrolling when you get to the "In the books" header if you want to avoid book information).

All the pages on that wiki are like that, which is great for those of us who haven't read the books. Here's the page for Ser Pounce. The book section isn't spoilery, but it's clear that the cat's back story is more interesting in the books.

I wonder if Ser Pounce has the same powers as Ser Pounce-a-lot.
posted by homunculus at 1:16 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I want to see where they keep their lil white walkers. Can we call them crawlers?
posted by whorl at 1:57 AM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Friendly PSA: While the identity of the White Walker in the final scene has been revealed on HBO's website and in some show-centric wikis, please note that it has NOT been revealed to the viewers yet so let's not talk about that in this episode's thread.

I'm almost done writing up the spoilers-friendly fan theories thread for the Blue so we can discuss it over there and/or wait until it's revealed on the show and then discuss it in that episode's thread.
posted by Jacqueline at 2:02 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I dunno, I think Cersei was pretty cold towards Jaime in this episode.

I felt like she was pretty much the same as she'd been before. Cold, yes. She'd pretty coldly rejected his overtures in previous episodes, told him everything was different, acted disgusted by his lost hand, unreasonably questioned why he'd abandoned her.

I just didn't see anything different in how they were interacting in this episode.
posted by torticat at 2:15 AM on April 28, 2014


Does anyone else get the impression that Daenarys might have inherited a bit of her father's madness?

I think Barristan Selmy is concerned. He's seen Targaryens go mad before.
posted by homunculus at 2:19 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Friendly PSA: While the identity of the White Walker in the final scene has been revealed on HBO's website and in some show-centric wikis, please note that it has NOT been revealed to the viewers yet so let's not talk about that in this episode's thread.

HBO has already edited it off their site, as well, so looks like it was posted in error (link is summary of this episode - no other spoilers).

Anyway: interesting episode, especially what's happening in the north. I feel stupid asking this, but can someone remind me how and why Locke got to the Wall, if it's known?

Thought the scene with the Meeren slaves was good, possibly a counterpoint to the criticism that the show portrays Dany as the big white savior - in this scene, we see the slaves rising in rebellion themselves rather than being rescued. And interesting to see Margery apparently didn't know that her family were involved in Joffrey's death.

(Few other thoughts but they go too much into the differences with the book so probably best left out at this point)
posted by Pink Frost at 2:28 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think that ending was a spoiler for book readers. I don't recall that from the books at all. I've seen theories in post book reading forum sessions, but I don't recall any actual exposition of that. There are tales from legend, but at this point in the books that's all they are. I still feel like we ought to stay away from saying who or what that dude is though.

If it is a spoiler for book readers then that's pretty hilarious.
posted by vbfg at 2:34 AM on April 28, 2014 [9 favorites]


If it is a spoiler for book readers then that's pretty hilarious.

It is! When I saw that scene my jaw hit the floor and I exclaimed "Holy shit!"

(See, nonreaders, we really DON'T have all the answers!)
posted by Jacqueline at 2:43 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


We'll call him Horns
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:49 AM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


The A.V. Club gives it a B.
posted by homunculus at 2:58 AM on April 28, 2014


can someone remind me how and why Locke got to the Wall, if it's known?

Bolton told him to find Bran and Rickon after Theon (aka Reek) revealed that they're still alive and suggested that Jon Snow might know where they are. Ironically, it looks like Jon might take Locke right to Bran.

The family that flays together, stays together.
posted by homunculus at 3:12 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


OK, so Horns apparently has the power to turn human infants into White Walkers. Is this where all WWs come from? Do other WWs have this power, or just Horns?

Craster had probably supplied them with a few dozen babies over the past couple of decades, but where did WWs come from before that? Did they have another source for babies (kidnapping them from wildlings?) or were there just very few WWs before Craster started making his offerings? What in the world gave Craster the idea to do this in the first place?

My mind is spinning over all the implications. I hope they flesh this out more this season and don't just leave us waiting until GRRM finishes writing the books...
posted by Jacqueline at 3:16 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Bolton told him to find Bran and Rickon after Theon (aka Reek) revealed that they're still alive yt and suggested that Jon Snow might know where they are

Oh yeah, of course. Thanks.

OK, so Horns apparently has the power to turn human infants into White Walkers.

Yeah, no idea what's going on here. I'd assumed that the WW were either eating the babies or turning them into wights, not that they'd become WWs themselves!
posted by Pink Frost at 3:20 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


For a while now, it's seemed that Dany was a touch mad. That look on her face whenever she starts yelling "I'm so and so, with nouns, and I will have the kingdom I can never remember living in" it's come off as petulant child in many ways.

It's great that she freed a bunch of horribly abused boys who were taught to serve unquestionably, but she freed them to fight and die for her. Lovely that she freed slaves, but there's a little too much of satisfied look on her face when they adoringly worship her.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:38 AM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


So, are we supposed to think Jamie sucks at his job, or what? The very next scene after Cersei's rant about him only having one guard posted is Margery sneaking in to the king's bed. Plus, you know, as someone pointed out in the other thread, during his time in the Kingsguard three kings have been killed. And he was defeated and captured in one of his first major battles with Robb. So, is he actually supposed to be good at this knight gig or what? I think it's set up that prior to losing his hand he had a reputation as a duellist and tournament fighter, but other than that?
posted by Diablevert at 3:38 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Jamie's never really cared about much except for being with Cersei and being a good fighter. He says as much when Tywin orders him to go back to Casterly Rock.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:03 AM on April 28, 2014


The spoilers-friendly fan theories post is finished and up on the Blue now.

It's intended to be more of a whole-series analysis of various theories instead of an episode-by-episode discussion, but if you need somewhere to post your book-informed / episode-inspired "ZOMG THEY DID THE THING DID YOU SEE THEM DO THE THING" squee then please feel free to vent it over there. :)

I do think that we readers have a LOT to talk about amongst ourselves with regards to last night's final scene in the context of what we know (and don't know) from the books, so I hope that y'all will meet me there.
posted by Jacqueline at 5:12 AM on April 28, 2014 [6 favorites]


HODOR. That hurt to watch.

I was very upset by the baby killings on previous episodes (I usually skip the scenes and then read recaps now, saves the nightmares) and so this time I ended up being oddly very happy. Yay, little white crawler! Go make a snowman with your siblings.

Count me on Team White Walkers for now because at least they rescue babies, more than any of the humans have.
posted by viggorlijah at 5:37 AM on April 28, 2014 [9 favorites]


The scene with Sana and Baelish was interesting because it felt like we were seeing a matured Sansa for the first time. Usually she's putting up a demure front, but this time she was acting as if she was thoughtful person, with intelligence. In short, an equal.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:46 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


The idea that Craster brought about the re-emergence of the White Walkers is very interesting. It's a bit like the Patient Zero idea at the onset of the AIDS epidemic. That one regular person's actions could change the world forever. Not a politician, not a bazillionaire, not someone with a world-changing agenda; just a person.
posted by double bubble at 5:54 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I like that Dany is starting to come off as unhinged.

Where the hell is Gendry already? As one of the more significant departures from the books (and that's all I will say about that) I'm itching for an update.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:55 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


BTW, for anyone who can't get enough of Burn Gorman, he's also on AMC's Revolutionary War spy series TURN.

It's weird, a month ago I didn't know who he was and now he's everywhere I look: Pacific Rim, The Dark Knight Rises, Torchwood, and here.
posted by A dead Quaker at 6:00 AM on April 28, 2014


The idea that Craster brought about the re-emergence of the White Walkers is very interesting. It's a bit like the Patient Zero idea at the onset of the AIDS epidemic. That one regular person's actions could change the world forever. Not a politician, not a bazillionaire, not someone with a world-changing agenda; just a person.

Then the return of dragons at the same time would be a coincidence. Craster's lifespan was that of a human, and the return of the magic to the world that's been hinted at in the series is epochal. My sense is that his lifespan more likely coincided with the rebuilding of the undead forces and that his household was likely one of many sources of sacrificial offerings from various groups beyond the Wall. Craster's place is fairly close in, when you think about it. What did they say last night? Sixty miles?
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:07 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


It doesn't have to be a coincidence. Weren't the dragons eggs thought to be dormant? They didn't hatch until well after Craster had presumably started his "sacrifices".
posted by double bubble at 6:11 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


It's weird, a month ago I didn't know who he was and now he's everywhere I look: Pacific Rim, The Dark Knight Rises, Torchwood, and here.

Speaking of the skull-faced dude, is that a new actor playing an old character, or a new character, or am I just not remembering him from before? Beardy McPut-Upon looked familiar to me, but not that dude.
posted by Diablevert at 6:21 AM on April 28, 2014


Speaking of the skull-faced dude, is that a new actor playing an old character, or a new character, or am I just not remembering him from before? Beardy McPut-Upon looked familiar to me, but not that dude.

I thought the same thing, but apparently he was in S3 too according to IMDB.
posted by The Michael The at 6:24 AM on April 28, 2014


Hunh. I suppose the beyond the wall stuff has never been my favorite storyline, maybe that's why I don't remember.

Sidebar: one of the posters at the AV Club referred to Dany's flag flying over the city as her "Mission Accomplished" banner, which I thought was apt and amusing.

She doesn't seem mad, to me though, just arrogant. The utter certainty of a young girl in her righteous, I-can-save-the-world phase, except instead of starting an Amnesty International chapter at her middle school or campaigning to free the house elves, she has mythical beasts of near limitless power and an army of 8,000 at her back.
posted by Diablevert at 6:35 AM on April 28, 2014 [19 favorites]


She doesn't seem mad, to me though, just arrogant.

Eh, I think semi-crucifying the masters was a wee bit crazy.

Shit like that certainly doesn't give me any confidence that her reign over Westeros will be a peaceful and prosperous once if/when she's successful in conquering them (speculation, not spoilers).
posted by Jacqueline at 6:41 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


" I am Daenerys Stormborn of House Targaryen, of the blood of Old Valyeria. I am the dragon's daughter, and I swear to you that those who would harm you will die screaming."

A chip off the old mad block!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:56 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I didn't know what to make of the comments that framed Jamie as being abusive in his relationship to Cercei prior to the sept scene, in which it was apparent, but then the scene between Jamie and Tyrion in this episode validated those comments. He has absolutely no regard for the fact that those are his kids, too. It's like he thinks of them as Cercei's problem. It becomes harder to tell if he really loves Cercei or if she is just the body he likes to use for his kink.


On another note, the scene where Pod becomes Brienne's squire seemed like a nice, lighthearted, change of pace. I'm looking forward to that storyline. And I'm glad that Bran is finally included in a way that makes me not hate his section of the show for the filler it has been.
posted by GrapeApiary at 7:17 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


argh I'm so worried now for Tommen! they're making him soo likeable and sympathetic which, you know what that means. Ugh.
posted by lonefrontranger at 7:17 AM on April 28, 2014


I agree about Jaime and the kids. He's never seemed to care one way or the other about them. Now Cersei and Tyrion are going on like he's devastated. Don't they notice he's not really all that sad about Joffrey?
posted by double bubble at 7:23 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Eh, I think semi-crucifying the masters was a wee bit crazy.

Crassus wasn't crazy, just brutal. The crushing of Spartucus' slave revolt seems to be the obvious historical reference here.

I don't disagree that Dany seems to suffering from a touch of megalomania/messiah complex. But I don't think that necessarily should make one fear for her rationality, at this point. We'll have to see what happens if her ambitions are thwarted --- can she still correctly assess her position and react appropriately? Then she'll be alright. If she continues down her course in a self-destructive way, maybe not. I wouldn't put it past Martin to knock her down to nothing again, but it's hard to see how low she can go with her BFFs Puff, Smaug & Co. at her side.
posted by Diablevert at 7:28 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I'm not sure I agree, about the way Jamie feels about is kids. I mean, of course he can't treat them like his own children- even they themselves think he's just their uncle.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:29 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Jacqueline: "Eh, I think semi-crucifying the masters was a wee bit crazy."

I guess you haven't you read the Khal Drogo version of the New Testament.

Martin 25:40: "And the Queen shall answer and say unto them, 'Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, I shall have it done unto thee.'"
posted by barnacles at 7:33 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


homunculus: It looked to me like the hilt was designed to be wielded with one hand, which would make sense since it was custom made.

argh. that makes absolutely no sense then! You can't wield a double-edged blade to its proper effect with one hand, you just can't! The whole point of a broad, heavy, two-edged weapon is that you have both edges in play in forehand and backhand arcs, meaning you need to be able to both parry and block in a 360° globe of defence, including two-handed blocks where you're using force and leverage to use the sword as a shield as well, by grasping the blade towards the tip with a (gauntleted) hand - this is why these are intended to be TWO HANDED or HAND-AND-A-HALF weapons (a bastard-sword is slightly lighter and more versatile but still used for two-handed defences). A one-handed person is going to be useless at defensive tactics (beyond a simple disengage) with a two-handed weapon, plus the added weight will slow them down. They're more effective with a lighter, faster single-edged slashing or stabbing blade such as a sabre (aka katana), cutlass or rapier, and using a small buckler, dagger or sword breaker in the off-hand - any of which can be used as an attachment / accessory to Jaime's stump.

I know, I know, it's Hollywood but their attention to detail in this stuff has been so good up to this point, it just was very jarring to me that they'd custom make such an inappropriate blade. Grrr. I swear, I'll shut up about it now.
posted by lonefrontranger at 7:37 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


If it is a spoiler for book readers then that's pretty hilarious.

Others take your eyes!
posted by tempestuoso at 7:37 AM on April 28, 2014


You can't wield a double-edged blade to its proper effect with one hand, you just can't!

Just consider it magic.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:43 AM on April 28, 2014


I want to see where they keep their lil white walkers. Can we call them crawlers?

Where can you get White Walker diapers? Do they use paper or cloth? Is White Walker baby poop made of snow?

What if all the snow that falls is actually baby poop?

!
posted by randomination at 7:43 AM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


My question is how did the white walker keep the baby from freezing? Presumably the snow-henge they seem to live in is not just down the street, so it's probably a bit of a hike to carry a warm little baby if you're a creature-presumably-made-of-ice-that-makes-things-freeze-even-if-they-are-a-long-way-away. Are we to infer that white walkers can control what they turn cold?
posted by tempestuoso at 7:52 AM on April 28, 2014


You can't wield a double-edged blade to its proper effect with one hand, you just can't!

Just consider it magic.


The magic of Valyrian steel.
posted by mwhybark at 7:55 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


If I were royal and lost my arm like Jaime I'd have an attachment for everything, you guys want eggs? spatula arm!
posted by pwally at 7:58 AM on April 28, 2014 [10 favorites]


Is the question here why would Tywin make a sword for his one-handed son that is obviously not appropriate for someone missing a hand? I can't imagine Tywin really cares what is best suited for Jaime. He's more interested in a status symbol to pass down from generation to generation.

Or is the question why is Jaime practicing with the wrong sword? Stubborn, maybe?
posted by double bubble at 8:00 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


meh, he gave it away to Brienne anyway which is probably his tacit acknowledgement of the fact that either he or the sword are useless for each other.
posted by lonefrontranger at 8:02 AM on April 28, 2014 [7 favorites]


> If I were royal and lost my arm like Jaime I'd have an attachment for everything, you guys want eggs? spatula arm!

My dad, who was born with his right arm missing from the elbow down, does have an attachment for everything. He has a golf ball sized device attached to the steering wheel of his car and an attachment for his arm that fits over it. Ever since I was a kid I've called it his egg cup.

He only uses this and the hook, though he's collected various things the NHS have given him over the years.
posted by vbfg at 8:10 AM on April 28, 2014 [8 favorites]



Also also: if Natalie Dormer tried to seduce me that way, I would prob betray my mom too.


That was a funny scene, because my wife asked if Olenna had suggested that Margaery just go sleep with Tommen or what. And then that scene happened, and I looked at her and I said if Natalie Dormer came to my bedroom, no matter what age I was, and just talked with me like that...well...let's just say there'd be some secrets.
posted by nubs at 9:08 AM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


I have a lot of though but most of them are BRIENNE THE MOBLE KNIGHT ON A QUEST FOR THE PRETTIEST OF PRINCESSESS WITH HER NOBLE SQUIRE POD YESSSSSSSSS
posted by The Whelk at 9:09 AM on April 28, 2014 [10 favorites]


I thought "Ha, top that Cersei" then considered her past relationships and got very weirded out.

Was surprised and relieved that the scene with Tommen was so chaste though, especially after the BEST GRANDMA EVER gave different advice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:11 AM on April 28, 2014 [7 favorites]


We in this house went:

" she's not going to ...straight up seduce a twelve year old?"

Frankly we where a little surprised they didn't Go There cause well it's Game of Thrones.


lady olenna is my life coach.
posted by The Whelk at 9:11 AM on April 28, 2014 [13 favorites]


Given past form from the show I was relieved she left him to the Hand of the King.
posted by vbfg at 9:12 AM on April 28, 2014 [9 favorites]


I thought it was brilliantly done, because Olenna basically says "I was good...but you're better" and then Margaery goes and shows how to seduce without having to do more than sit down and talk with someone.
posted by nubs at 9:13 AM on April 28, 2014 [11 favorites]


I enjoyed a lot of parts of this episode, but it was annoying that last week all we could discuss was how the show used rape wrongly/poorly/lazily, and this week they fulfilled the T&A quota by, rather than having important conversations in a brothel so that there's sex in the background, having important conversations in Craster's Keep while there's rape in the background.
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:16 AM on April 28, 2014 [20 favorites]


I think the difference is that we already know the mutineers at Craster's Keep are evil, whereas some people believe that Jaime is basically good.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:21 AM on April 28, 2014


rape in the background

That REALLY bothered me too; gratuitously rapey.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:23 AM on April 28, 2014 [24 favorites]


DynamiteToast, the Craster's Keep casual ongoing rapes in the background bothered the fuck out of me; at times with the show I have to choose to just move past the casual sexual violence. So it's not that it was unnoticed, I'm just choosing to let it go at the moment.

And again - the books do not do the "Return to Craster's Keep" - when Sam leaves it after Mormont's death, that's the last we see of the happy band that chooses to stay there. So, completely made up for the show. (The book notes that several of the men were moving in on the daughter-wives, but I think that was it - and I'm pretty sure that the show played the Mormont scene very close to the books, the big difference I remember being that Sam had to be shaken from his shock and made to get going in the book, instead of doing it himself).

(That said, I loved the creepy, monotone chant of the Craster-wives. And I appreciate that the show needs to do something with both (a) Bran and (b) Jon here to build up their storylines a bit. Loved the reaction of the Night's Watch high table when Jon gets his volunteers and they realize that this might have been a mistake - Jon is now seen as a leader and willing to put his life on the line to achieve important mission, as opposed to sitting at the Wall).
posted by nubs at 9:25 AM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Was surprised and relieved that the scene with Tommen was so chaste though, especially after the BEST GRANDMA EVER gave different advice.

Considering Tommen's age and that Margaery wanted to keep her visit(s) a secret, not overplaying her hand and risking an adverse reaction was better. And less creepy.
posted by ersatz at 9:27 AM on April 28, 2014


Lovely that she freed slaves, but there's a little too much of satisfied look on her face when they adoringly worship her.

My reaction was "Yay! You wrecked our economy! You sure are pretty though, so I'm pretty sure you have something better in place ready to roll out, right? . . . right?"

I mean slavery is bad and a city that is 75% slaves is gross and terrible, but I think it's a delicate task to be affecting economic reform on that scale without having things get worse before they get better.
posted by KathrynT at 9:29 AM on April 28, 2014


[Couple comments nixed, if there's a "HBO accidentally sorta spoilered a thing and then redacted it" deal going on probably best not to introduce that into the thread.]
posted by cortex at 9:31 AM on April 28, 2014


Friendly reminder that HBO making a gaffe in their episode synopsis does not make that information fair game for this thread as it was not actually shown in the episode.

As a workaround, we are referring to the White Walker in question as "Horns" until his identity is revealed on screen.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:32 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I mean slavery is bad and a city that is 75% slaves is gross and terrible, but I think it's a delicate task to be affecting economic reform on that scale without having things get worse before they get better.

You can't let some fiery tart wield supreme executive power just because she threw some swords at you.
posted by maudlin at 9:36 AM on April 28, 2014 [18 favorites]


Considering Tommen's age and that Margaery wanted to keep her visit(s) a secret, not overplaying her hand and risking an adverse reaction was better. And less creepy.

Not only that, it's more seductive. By allllmost kissing him and then going for his forehead, she's got him in a place where all he can think about is what will it be like to kiss her?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:38 AM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


"Wonderful job on the slave rebellion, shall we set up a new mercantile system with labor laws and administration taken from the lower orders and friendly existing nobility?"

"naw, I think I'll cackle madly while slaughtering the slavers, that seems like it can't go wrong."

"okay dokey then, you're the girl with the dragons, just try not to go murderously insane like every other member of your family."

"*cackles madly*"
posted by The Whelk at 9:39 AM on April 28, 2014 [15 favorites]


Remember the Targaryan house words, guys. Are they "Fire and Economic Reforms?" Are they "Fire and Reasonable Compromise?" No, they're motherfucking FIRE AND BLOOD and our adorable little white-haired princess is merely living up to her extremely badass ancestry
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:43 AM on April 28, 2014 [34 favorites]


*sighs and puts away banners reading FIRE AND SUSTAINABLE REFORM.*
posted by The Whelk at 9:45 AM on April 28, 2014 [30 favorites]


OCCUPY MEREEN
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:46 AM on April 28, 2014 [6 favorites]


Change We Can BURN WITH FIRE
posted by davidjmcgee at 9:47 AM on April 28, 2014 [6 favorites]


What do we want? MURDER! When do we want it? MURDER!
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:52 AM on April 28, 2014 [7 favorites]


Ben Wyatt's ideal stay at home Dad job would be writing an economic book on how Westeros can move from monarchy to democratic socialism.
posted by The Whelk at 9:53 AM on April 28, 2014 [12 favorites]


Dany embodies "no justice, no peace." Except from outside the community of people on whom the injustice is inflicted.
posted by prefpara at 9:54 AM on April 28, 2014


Not only that, it's more seductive. By allllmost kissing him and then going for his forehead, she's got him in a place where all he can think about is what will it be like to kiss her?

Oh god, you're probably right. And to think, just for a second I thought Marge was going, "so, should I make out with him here? Nah, he's twelve."
posted by Diablevert at 9:57 AM on April 28, 2014


Ughhh at the gratuitous rape in this episode. The worst thing is, everyone insisting that what we saw last week "wasn't a rape scene" gets to point to the scene at Craster's and insist that THAT is what rape is. Something evil strangers do. And the show playing Jaime for a downtrodden hero signals that the show's creators absolutely share this viewpoint.

It creeps me right the fuck out. It's hard not to read long Facebook posts from people I actually know, breathlessly insisting that what happened with Jaime and Cersei last week wasn't rape. The unrealized subtext is "if that I did that to you, it wouldn't be rape." Or, perhaps more charitably, "If your on-off boyfriend did that to you, it wouldn't be rape."
posted by almostmanda at 10:02 AM on April 28, 2014 [13 favorites]


To make things fractionally less creepy, the actor who plays Tommen now is seventeen years old. (Same age as the actor who plays Arya!)
posted by KathrynT at 10:02 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


at times with the show I have to choose to just move past the casual sexual violence

I managed to do this during the first part of that scene where everyone is silhouetted by madly wondering where the fuck we were. I was like "this looks like some Dreadfort shit, doesn't it? Ramsay looks odd. Is that Ramsay?" because WHY DO THEY KEEP PUTTING THE STUPID DREADFORT IN THE CREDITS if it's not in the show? Am I the only one who had this problem? probably
posted by furiousthought at 10:03 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Dany's got some really good people around her. Her knights are savvy, and her translator and Grey Worm are brilliant and committed to the cause. I wonder how they'll react when the figurehead of a mission they seem to honestly believe in falls to pieces?

I do think Dany is going to fall to pieces. She's seemed a bit...unstable...to me ever since she saw her brother murdered with molten metal, and reacted by getting a bit glassy-eyed and saying that she guessed he wasn't a true dragon after all.
posted by rue72 at 10:03 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah Margaery uses the right tools for the job. With Renly she offered her brother; with Joffrey she humored his sadism and admired his weapons; with Tommen she chats and pets his cat. She's not interested in seducing Tommen, just becoming his secret BFF to preempt any attempts by Cercei to turn him against her.

Aaaaaand subtly starting the wheels turning in his little pre-adolescent brain, of course. That scene was beautifully done.
posted by torticat at 10:06 AM on April 28, 2014 [13 favorites]


Everyone is all "Littlefinger is supercreep," but I'm all "whatevs, Aidan Gillen is hot."
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 10:06 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


*sighs and puts away banners reading FIRE AND SUSTAINABLE REFORM.*

I demand fan art depicting these banners.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:14 AM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Ughhh at the gratuitous rape in this episode. The worst thing is, everyone insisting that what we saw last week "wasn't a rape scene" gets to point to the scene at Craster's and insist that THAT is what rape is. Something evil strangers do. And the show playing Jaime for a downtrodden hero signals that the show's creators absolutely share this viewpoint.

The rape at Crastors (what did the leader say, "fuck em till they die"?!) and drinking wine out of the late commander's skull and taking a knife to that baby right in front of his aunts and mothers -- it was just too much. No need to show us a living Hieronymus Bosch painting, honestly.

I didn't get the feeling that Jaime was meant to be so sympathetic in this episode? *Bronn* of all people called him out for being selfish and cowardly for doubting and abandoning his brother. Cersei was grieving and possibly the most disillusioned person of all time, and Jaime was dry and dead as a stick beside her, and didn't seem to have any love or sympathy for her or their children at all.

Bronn straight up tells Jaime that ruthlessness is more important than having ideal form when it comes to fighting, and Jaime responds by packing off Brianne and Pod together into the wilderness. Brianne and Pod have got to be the most tenderhearted and least ruthless professional fighting duo of all time! I mean, even Ned would have said that Brianne could let her hair down with the "honor" stuff, and wtf is Pod even going to do with that ax? Isn't there a third Clegane brother or some other asshole (this world has no dearth of assholes, he can't find *one*?) who Jaime can send out with them?!
posted by rue72 at 10:16 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


And the show playing Jaime for a downtrodden hero signals that the show's creators absolutely share this viewpoint.

I know, I think that is super-gross.

The worst thing is, everyone insisting that what we saw last week "wasn't a rape scene"

I don't think anyone here at least argued that what happened on the show last week wasn't rape.

Some book-readers, myself included, were upset that the show deviated from the books in that scene, leaving us with an story arc in which Jaime is apparently on the road to redemption with just a tiny detour in which he rapes his sister.
posted by torticat at 10:17 AM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


If I were royal and lost my arm like Jaime I'd have an attachment for everything, you guys want eggs? spatula arm!
posted by pwally at 7:58 AM on April 28 [5 favorites +] [!]


There's no other way to read this than in Jack Handey's voice.
posted by GrapeApiary at 10:20 AM on April 28, 2014 [11 favorites]


The House is taking Arya to Lysa. Littlefinger is taking Sansa to Lysa.

What are the chances that there will actually be a Stark family reunion this time, as opposed to the soul crushing of the Red Wedding?

Ugh... Just realized that Littlefinger+Lysa means there will be another wedding.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:22 AM on April 28, 2014


Jaime was dry and dead as a stick beside her, and didn't seem to have any love or sympathy for her or their children at all.

Jaime is coming to terms with the fact that the people he has loved/is supposed to love are stone-cold monsters. First Joffrey, now Cersei, who wants him to help her have their own brother put to death, and now wants Sansa's head on a stick too. Jaime knows or believes Tyrion and Sansa are innocent, so he's having a hard time getting on the same page with Cersei at the moment.
posted by torticat at 10:26 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


The House is taking Arya to Lysa.

Imagining Hugh Laurie as Sandor Clegane is making me happy.
posted by davidjmcgee at 10:29 AM on April 28, 2014 [18 favorites]


Everycunt lies.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:33 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


The House is taking Arya to Lysa.

It always takes me more than 5 minutes to see my typos.
posted by sparklemotion at 10:33 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


argh. that makes absolutely no sense then! You can't wield a double-edged blade to its proper effect with one hand, you just can't!

I agree, it's silly, even if Valerian steel makes it lighter and sharper than other blades. But then when Tywin had the sword made he was assuming Jamie would be going back to Casterly rock, so maybe it was meant to be primarily ceremonial. Brienne has it now, so I guess it doesn't matter. I do look forward to watching her use it.
posted by homunculus at 10:34 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Interesting to see such unanimous squeeing over a scene that was textbook grooming. And Littlefinger is the creep?
posted by Iteki at 10:34 AM on April 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


Yeah, Jaime's had his shit messed up. When he left KL, he was Jaime Lannister, Kingslayer, most feared swordsman in the land; a golden child who might have shit for honour but he didn't have to care.

Then he spent a long time as a prisoner. During his escape, his world view got radically altered - he lost a sword hand, and Brienne - a woman who carries herself with more honour and nobility than just about anyone he's ever dealt with - called him out for being a whiny baby who has never known hardship. So, he's seeing things a little differently now and that maybe that honour and reputation thing he didn't care about maybe matters a little bit.

Then he gets home, and discovers that his father's only use for him is as heir, his sister has learned to live without him, and that while he has children he doesn't know them, they don't know him, and there is no way to bridge that gap.

He's a man without a clear identity any more; he doesn't know who he is, where he fits, and is without a map. It doesn't make the fact that he raped his sister for "old time's" sake any less forgivable, but this is why Jaime remains interesting to me.
posted by nubs at 10:35 AM on April 28, 2014 [6 favorites]




I'm guessing that Olenna was once betrothed to Aemon. Shippin' old people, yup yup.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:38 AM on April 28, 2014 [10 favorites]


Interesting to see such unanimous squeeing over a scene that was textbook grooming. And Littlefinger is the creep?

I see your point but I think there's a qualitative difference and not just one of degree. Some things that wouldn't be appropriate in other contexts might be okay when it's with your arranged marriage fiance.

Grooming is about manipulating someone into a relationship that they otherwise wouldn't choose to have, but Margaery and Tommen don't get to choose whom they marry.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:47 AM on April 28, 2014


I thought it was creepy grooming, too, and said so to my husband, though I still think that Natalie Dormer has pretty, pretty doll eyes.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 10:49 AM on April 28, 2014


Interesting to see such unanimous squeeing over a scene that was textbook grooming

oh I don't disagree at all, hence my *shiver* comment about her "it's our little secret" comment. Because that is straight-up word for word exactly the same thing I was told at the same age and I won't go into that any further but eeek.
posted by lonefrontranger at 10:50 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


Putting aside Natalie Dormer's hotness for a moment, I'm still not sure that the concept of grooming can be precisely applied here. I mean, this is a world in which it's totally normal to be betrothed to a person as a child, possibly a person who is much older than you are. If I knew I was eventually going to HAVE to marry some random kid who was 10 years younger than me and would also have complete power over my life and the lives of my whole family, I'd be doing everything I could to get him on my side, too.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:55 AM on April 28, 2014 [7 favorites]


Jaime is coming to terms with the fact that the people he has loved/is supposed to love are stone-cold monsters. First Joffrey, now Cersei, who wants him to help her have their own brother put to death, and now wants Sansa's head on a stick too. Jaime knows or believes Tyrion and Sansa are innocent, so he's having a hard time getting on the same page with Cersei at the moment.

Cersei has been terrified that Tyrion is picking off her children one by one since he sent off Myrcella and then ordered Joffrey to participate in the assault on King's Landing. Sansa has always been a reminder to Cersei of her own mortality, because they've got some Wicked Queen/Snow White dynamic in Cersei's head, and I'm sure that Sansa being Tyrion's wife isn't helping matters. I think that she's *mistaken* in villainizing Tyrion and Sansa, but it seems to me that she's doing it out of genuine fear and grief, not because she's a monster. I think that's how everyone else is taking her actions, too -- that she's grieving and scared (and sloshed)? They saw how she was over Joffrey's body, and nobody has ever doubted her love for him.

If anything, I think it's Jaime who's being strangely cold. His sister/"soul mate" is literally going mad with grief and he rapes her and otherwise stays away. His brother is on trial for murder and his father is a judge, and he doesn't visit. Has he even talked to Tywin about this? And he hasn't shed a tear, he's just practicing his fencing and posting the usual single guard at what might be his lone remaining child's room. I don't know, I don't get any feeling that he's "redeeming" himself.
posted by rue72 at 10:58 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


In other words, grooming is so horrible because it's a person with power manipulating someone who is powerless. But Tommen isn't powerless- even though he is little more than a pawn at this point, he's also the king of Westeros.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:02 AM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


Seems to me by his actions in this episode that Jaime is perhaps resigned to his fate now. I have to wonder if he is going to do something big pretty soon to finish filling in his pages of the white book.
posted by Poldo at 11:08 AM on April 28, 2014


On a less ephebophilic note, was I the only one brought out of the story a little by "kill the masters" being written (in blood?) in English on that one wall?

I mean, I get that English is the stand-in for "Common" in this world, but the episode started with a reminder that most people on that side of the world do not speak Common. We didn't hear a single person in Meereen speak or understand Common, so why would the words be written on the wall in Common?
posted by sparklemotion at 11:10 AM on April 28, 2014 [24 favorites]


Yeah, that bothered me too.
posted by davidjmcgee at 11:16 AM on April 28, 2014


I doubt we're supposed to read into it, I mean it's not like Grey Worm just decided to show off his new skills (or else it would've probably said "Masters kill" with a backwards R in there). Guess they just hoped less people would be jarred by the error than by a subtitle.
posted by DynamiteToast at 11:19 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


But that's no fun, so my theory is that the slaves are never taught the phrase in Valyrian for "Kill the Masters" by some weird form of brainwashing, so they had to use Common. Seems plausible.
posted by DynamiteToast at 11:20 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


But had we ever seen written English on the show?

I know it's pretty ridiculous that it doesn't bother me that they're *speaking* English but does bother me that they'd be *writing* it, but there it is.
posted by davidjmcgee at 11:24 AM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


she's doing it out of genuine fear and grief, not because she's a monster.

I hear you, rue72, but I think the reason it's impossible to have sympathy for her is that she has always hated Tyrion pretty much because he is short and ugly. That's what makes her a monster. The problem isn't that she's capable of making a mistake, but that her mistakes are rooted in deep, unjust prejudice. She is vain, superficial, and selfish and loves Joffrey and Jaime inasmuch as they are extensions of herself (god knows there was no other reason to love Joffrey). Because of those faults, she's never been able to appreciate Tyrion's qualities. If she had been able to appreciate/understand Tyrion, then she, like Jaime, would know that he would not kill a child (and for that matter, wouldn't use that method even if he did).

She doesn't know Tyrion at all, that's the problem.
posted by torticat at 11:29 AM on April 28, 2014


%n: "But had we ever seen written English on the show? "

Yep, the Big Book of What Color Everyone's Hair Was from season 1 was clearly written in English, and we saw King Robert sign his name in recognizable cursive English that same year.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:30 AM on April 28, 2014 [22 favorites]


Cool. Thanks!

Big Book of What Color Everyone's Hair Was

Coming soon from GRRM, surely.
posted by davidjmcgee at 11:32 AM on April 28, 2014 [12 favorites]


(Personally, I just chalk up the appearance of written English in fictional fantasy/SF settings as just the TARDIS's translation matrix doing its job for the viewers at home.)
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:33 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


But had we ever seen written English on the show?

The White Book, which is the book which records all the stuff about the Kingsguard (you know, the book Jamie is so emo about), is written in English.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:33 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


was I the only one brought out of the story a little by "kill the masters" being written (in blood?) in English

It bugged me more that what was shown was more like "kill one master in a corridor". I get that it's pragmatic "we can't afford to show the big battles" business, but I feel like it's having a diminishing effect on Dany's storyline -- it makes her victories seem small and trivial.

(Basically the show has two uses for the Unsullied, both decorative: massed in cut-and-paste squares, or lined up along roadsides.)

The shot of Dany on the pyramid under the huge flag had Triumph of the Will undertones, I thought.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:33 AM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Interesting to see such unanimous squeeing over a scene that was textbook grooming. And Littlefinger is the creep?

Yeah I don't think it's squeeing like that was all cute and cuddles. More just awe of Margaery's scary skills. She's a schemer, and the comparison with Littlefinger is probably apt on more levels than just the grooming.

Personally I find the "if Natalie Dormer came to my bedroom" comments uncomfortably close to "I'd hit that" territory, but maybe that's just me.
posted by torticat at 11:37 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


Oh, and also, on Reading Rainbow: Storm's End Edition, they have pretty explicitly just started treating Westerosi writing as English, as shown in this exchange.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:37 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


But had we ever seen written English on the show?

Also the note about Robb which Arya spotted at Harrenhal.
posted by homunculus at 11:45 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't get any feeling that he's "redeeming" himself.

rue72 (with apologies, I'm not trying to nitpick your comments but just interested in this line of discussion), you don't think that the direct and stark (ha) contrast between "I want that little bitch dead and her head on a stick" and "you will use Ned Stark's sword to protect Ned Stark's daughter"* was meant to be seen as pretty much evil vs good?

Not that things are usually that cut and dried on GoT but I thought in this instance they were.

*not exact quotes
posted by torticat at 11:48 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


drinking wine out of the late commander's skull

Which is laughably cartoonish "he's a really bad guy" framing -- it's clearly not a particularly effective drinking vessel but GET ME I'M DRINKING OUT OF MY VANQUISHED ENEMY'S SKULL.

If anything, in juxtaposition it makes the multiple background raping even more troublesome; it's not consequential, it's not even the usual HBO titillation, it's simply rape as set-dressing.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:49 AM on April 28, 2014 [9 favorites]


drinking wine out of the late commander's skull

What did they do with the rest of Mormont? 'Cause he wasn't a small fellow.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:50 AM on April 28, 2014


I mean just the fact that he's choosing Brienne over Cersei (not romantically, but tactically) is a sign of positive movement on Jaime's part.
posted by torticat at 11:52 AM on April 28, 2014


It wasn't enough for him to drink wine from the skull. He had to go and really rub it by announcing - Oh look at me, who ever would have thought that I'd make it all that way to super crazy bad guy status drinking wine out of this dead old dudes skull.
posted by Arbac at 11:52 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


What did they do with the rest of Mormont? 'Cause he wasn't a small fellow. Do they have barbeque sauce beyond the Wall?
posted by Jacqueline at 11:52 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Ok so that skull thing drove me insane, because the base of a human skull is riddled with holes.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:53 AM on April 28, 2014 [13 favorites]


Also (a) "let's randomly put a wolf-trap right next to the caged direwolf" seems awfully handy, and (b) you would think "hey boss, we just trapped another huge wolf just like Jon Snow's" might be KIND OF a clue as to who the little highborn you've just captured might be.

What did they do with the rest of Mormont?

Well, they did already note how delicious Watch funeral pyres smell.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:53 AM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Speaking of languages: How to Speak Dothraki (90's Muzzy Parody)
posted by homunculus at 11:53 AM on April 28, 2014


Ok so that skull thing drove me insane, because the base of a human skull is riddled with holes.

Maybe not in this universe, where all of our main characters are actually Liliputians living in a giant's eye.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:57 AM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


I hear you, rue72, but I think the reason it's impossible to have sympathy for her is that she has always hated Tyrion pretty much because he is short and ugly. That's what makes her a monster. The problem isn't that she's capable of making a mistake, but that her mistakes are rooted in deep, unjust prejudice. She is vain, superficial, and selfish and loves Joffrey and Jaime inasmuch as they are extensions of herself (god knows there was no other reason to love Joffrey). Because of those faults, she's never been able to appreciate Tyrion's qualities. If she had been able to appreciate/understand Tyrion, then she, like Jaime, would know that he would not kill a child (and for that matter, wouldn't use that method even if he did).

Jaime didn't know that Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey, though. If anything, he seemed reluctant to believe that Tyrion hadn't, since he asked asked both Bronn and Tyrion and had to be persuaded. His unwillingness to kill Tyrion seemed to me to be because Tyrion is his brother, regardless of what might have happened with Joffrey.

I also don't think that Cersei hates Tyrion for being short and ugly, I think she hates him because Tywin does (and she's always trying to follow Tywin's lead -- she seems as terrified of him as Tyrion is, and she and Tyrion are always competing to not be least-favorite child with him). Also, like Tywin, I think Cersei has always had an issue with Tyrion because their mother died giving birth to him. This conspiracy theory she's concocted, that he's stealing away/killing her children one by one, I think *that* might have to do with him being "short and ugly" and a relatively easy target. I think she's projecting a lot of her fears onto him because he's maybe the one person who is an easier target than she is, and is therefore relatively "safe" to hate.

Her thing with Jaime and Joffrey is complicated, I think, because she says flat out (I think midway in S2? I've mentioned the scene before) that she thinks Joffrey is a monster as punishment for her and Jaime's "sin," but she also says that having him saved her when she was a despondent young bride. I think she feels similarly about Jaime, in that I think she thinks it's sinful to be with him and their relationship is a corrupting force, but it's also a lifeline for her.

you don't think that the direct and stark (ha) contrast between "I want that little bitch dead and her head on a stick" and "you will use Ned Stark's sword to protect Ned Stark's daughter"* was meant to be seen as pretty much evil vs good?

Bronn had *just* told Jaime that he was going to get slaughtered unless he played dirty, and then Jaime responded by sending out the two *least* dirty people into the wilderness. Jaime has also *just* seen the only people I can even sort of believe he loves in the world, Tyrion and Cersei, destroyed by some kind of huge conspiracy that they don't understand, and he's deciding to barely talk to anyone or get involved at all. So to me, pawning off the sword on Brianne (that sword is also representative of duty, Jaime's duty toward his family and the future) looks like self-justification on Jaime's part, a way of salving his conscious without real cost to himself, rather than simply "good."

I mean, I think it's also supposed to be complicated, I don't think that it's about Jaime being a "good guy" or a "bad guy." Just like, I think that Cersei calling for her brother and sister-in-law and who even knows who else's head on a stake is bad, but it's also a sign of her pain and fear at her child's death and her withdrawal from the world (she's pulling away from *everyone,* she seems completely isolated at this point, to me).
posted by rue72 at 11:58 AM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Ok so that skull thing drove me insane, because the base of a human skull is riddled with holes.

Well you can plug them I suppose. There were peoples IRL who were claimed to drink out of human skulls (Scythians, at least). But that was another thing that made me think we were at the Dreadfort at first. Ramsay Bolton's gotta have entire china cabinets fulla skull cups and repurposed human parts.
posted by furiousthought at 12:00 PM on April 28, 2014


Which is laughably cartoonish "he's a really bad guy" framing -- it's clearly not a particularly effective drinking vessel but GET ME I'M DRINKING OUT OF MY VANQUISHED ENEMY'S SKULL.

Yeah, I loved that he couldn't even actually drink out of it, the wine was spilling everywhere. Listen up, horrible Night Watch villain guy: your life is not a movie.
posted by rue72 at 12:01 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


If you're gonna refashion the skulls of your enemies into drinking vessels, which I 100% support as everybody needs a hobby, you should probably flip them upside down first.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:03 PM on April 28, 2014 [6 favorites]


showbiz_liz: "Considering Tommen's age and that Margaery wanted to keep her visit(s) a secret, not overplaying her hand and risking an adverse reaction was better. And less creepy.

Not only that, it's more seductive. By allllmost kissing him and then going for his forehead, she's got him in a place where all he can think about is what will it be like to kiss her?
"

Also, she made an implicit offer of "if you marry me, we can have sex any time you want" with the "once we are married, I'll belong to you" comment
posted by I am the Walrus at 12:10 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


So to me, pawning off the sword on Brianne (that sword is also representative of duty, Jaime's duty toward his family and the future) looks like self-justification on Jaime's part, a way of salving his conscious without real cost to himself, rather than simply "good."

I like this reading.
posted by GrapeApiary at 12:14 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


rue72: "Brianne and Pod have got to be the most tenderhearted and least ruthless professional fighting duo of all time! I mean, even Ned would have said that Brianne could let her hair down with the "honor" stuff, and wtf is Pod even going to do with that ax? Isn't there a third Clegane brother or some other asshole (this world has no dearth of assholes, he can't find *one*?) who Jaime can send out with them?!"

Well, he is pretty sure that Pod won't stab her in the back and rape her. He can't be sure about either Clegane
posted by I am the Walrus at 12:16 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


Actually he is probably pretty sure both Clegane brothers would assault her
posted by I am the Walrus at 12:17 PM on April 28, 2014


[Nixed a comment. Heya, maybe please less "it's probably not a spoiler but here's a thing from the books so spoiler alert here's a major character motivation thing" and more with just sitting on that sort of thing for now and wait for more of a book-oriented space to dig into it. It's hard to speculate affirmatively that the show is not addressing a thing vs. just hasn't gotten around to it, caution is the thing to err on.]
posted by cortex at 12:19 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Oh man, I wonder if Brienne and Pod are going to cross paths with Arya and the Hound.
posted by homunculus at 12:20 PM on April 28, 2014


can someone remind me how and why Locke got to the Wall, if it's known?

Bolton sent him; but yes, he does seem to have made that journey remarkably quickly, given that we're still waiting for Yara's "fastest ship in the fleet" to arrive.

(Also: "chose the Wall over losing my hand". Heh.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:23 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Friendly reminder: If anyone wants to talk about Cersei's motivations beyond what has already been explicitly revealed in the show, one of the fan theories in the all spoilers FPP is actually specifically about that. Please feel free to MeMail if you need clarification on which theory I'm referring to.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:24 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Oh man, I wonder if Brienne and Pod are going to cross paths with Arya and the Hound.

I would pay money for this.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:26 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I clicked on the FPP and learned things I didn't want to learn :-(

I should listen closer to spoiler warnings
posted by I am the Walrus at 12:27 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


Re: Yaras fastest ship in the fleet - IIRC the iron islands are on the opposite side of the continent from the Dreadfort; ie the Dreadforts closest water approach requires sailing around the entirety of it.

As for why she would go that way - Krakens don't do well when they get too far from water. Her idea is based on a quick raid and rescue and return to the sea.
posted by nubs at 12:29 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


BB, I figured that comment would get nixed, but that was a fair point if potentially spoilerish.

rue72, Cersei holds her brother responsible for his mother's death, yes--a death in which he was clearly blameless. Yet she stands by while her own son kills for sport.

She is disgusted by Tyrion's physical deformity and now by Jaime's, yet she coddles, enables, and chuckles along with her son's egregious cruelty to innocent people. To the degree that she cares, it is always in terms of how other people will see him and whether he will undermine his own power with his increasing insanity. She never actually expresses concern for his victims; isn't that telling?

Re Jaime's sending Brienne away, I think it's to be taken as a sign of his great respect for her, not an abdication on his part. It's not like he can go racing off to find Sansa on his own, he's the captain of the king's guard (and plus, he's disabled and can't fight as well as Brienne can anyway). He sees Brienne as his equal at this point, so he arms her in every respect he can, and sends her off. Also, I disagree that Brienne can't be ruthless. Jaime knows she can be VERY ruthless once her loyalties are engaged.
posted by torticat at 12:32 PM on April 28, 2014


Oh man, I wonder if Brienne and Pod are going to cross paths with Arya and the Hound.

Next Time on The Amazing Race:

Team Honorable But A Little Thick

~ vs. ~

Team Fuck The King

Also, I'm calling it: Locke (who I wouldn't have thought had it in him to play guileful assassin?) dies by dire wolf. 60% chance Bran warging into one of his wolves, 40% Jon's wolf.
posted by furiousthought at 12:35 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


I somehow managed to completely forget who Locke was, and I was like "ooo who is this nice man helping Jon out?" I am an idiot.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:37 PM on April 28, 2014 [20 favorites]


For all that I like to think that I am an oh-so-savvy show watcher, I forgot too. [hangs head in shame]
posted by Jacqueline at 12:38 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Well, maybe once he takes the oath Locke will have a change of heart and become a loyal member of the Night's Watch and a good friend to Jon Snow.

But probably not.
posted by homunculus at 12:39 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Is it weird that I'm hoping for a shot of a white walker nursery filled with wraith-like blue-eyed tots?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:40 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Is it weird that I'm hoping for a shot of a white walker nursery filled with wraith-like blue-eyed tots?

I demand fan art of this too.

And we should totes go with the suggestion to call them White Crawlers.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:42 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


I didn't pick up on Locke being a bad guy until the ominous music started as he stood up. I was super-confused at that point.
posted by double bubble at 12:43 PM on April 28, 2014


Is it weird that I'm hoping for a shot of a white walker nursery filled with wraith-like blue-eyed tots?

Do Want To Build A Snowman?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:45 PM on April 28, 2014 [12 favorites]


Do Want To Build A Snowman?

YES YES YES I DEMAND A FAN MUSIC VIDEO OF THIS.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:49 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yes. Boo, hiss. And Cersei doesn't seem at all upset what happened in the sept

Really? She seemed drunker in this episode than they had ever shown her. Like, withdrawn depressed kind of drunk. Defeated by life because everything sucks all at once.

I don't get what some people want to see from this, do they want to see some scene where she flips out on him, or tries to have him killed or something? That would be satisfying for the disgusted people, but just not really in character.

I enjoyed a lot of parts of this episode, but it was annoying that last week all we could discuss was how the show used rape wrongly/poorly/lazily, and this week they fulfilled the T&A quota by, rather than having important conversations in a brothel so that there's sex in the background, having important conversations in Craster's Keep while there's rape in the background.

Yea, i was REALLY hoping this show could avoid using the "they're bad people, so they rape lol!" thing as a lazy club over and over and had even argued with people saying that they hadn't thusfar, and wouldn't.

Kinda losing ground on that one, since that's totally what they're doing.

Which is laughably cartoonish "he's a really bad guy" framing -- it's clearly not a particularly effective drinking vessel but GET ME I'M DRINKING OUT OF MY VANQUISHED ENEMY'S SKULL.

If anything, in juxtaposition it makes the multiple background raping even more troublesome; it's not consequential, it's not even the usual HBO titillation, it's simply rape as set-dressing.


Pretty much this. They felt like villains from a 80s kids cartoon, but since it's hbo and they can show boobs and sex OMG THERE'S RAPE IN THE BACKGROUND.

The drinking out of the skull thing seems like something that would happen on fucking like, he-man.

If you're gonna refashion the skulls of your enemies into drinking vessels, which I 100% support as everybody needs a hobby, you should probably flip them upside down first.

This actually made it even more heavy handed and silly, if that even felt possible. They had to use the bottom part so it was super obviously a skull even to the slow on the uptake people.

I've been saying since ep1 that this season is oddly cheesy compared to the previous ones, and this is only hammering that stake with a huge sign on it into the ground.
posted by emptythought at 1:00 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Really? She seemed drunker in this episode than they had ever shown her. Like, withdrawn depressed kind of drunk. Defeated by life because everything sucks all at once.

Agreed. Cersei's demeanor in this week's episode reminds me of that expression, "Depression is anger without enthusiasm."

I don't get what some people want to see from this, do they want to see some scene where she flips out on him, or tries to have him killed or something? That would be satisfying for the disgusted people, but just not really in character.

She could very well be tremendously angry at Jaime, but what can she actually do about it? There is no one she can turn to for help or revenge because telling anyone what he did blows open the whole incestuous affair and all her children not being legitimate heirs of King Robert. She can't even yell at him about it without attracting unwanted attention (there are ears everywhere in King's Landing, even when you think you're in private).

Her only real options are to give him the cold shoulder and find some way to numb her anger and pain. And that's exactly what she's doing.

Lena Headey is absolutely killing it this season, IMO.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:12 PM on April 28, 2014 [9 favorites]


Yea, i was REALLY hoping this show could avoid using the "they're bad people, so they rape lol!" thing as a lazy club over and over and had even argued with people saying that they hadn't thusfar, and wouldn't.

I agree that they use it as set dressing too much and that the background action seemed gratuitous. On the other hand, though, what are they supposed to be doing up there, playing backgammon and debating Proust? Getting a chance to eat Craster's food and rape his wives and daughters was the entire reason they mutined in the first place. Could the show have been less over the top in how it depicted that? Definitely. But it's entirely in character.

As for the cheeseballness of the whole series being on the uptick this season, I think that's something you're bringing it to it. If you go for epic and miss you land in cheeseball, but the show's iconography and willingness to embrace all the gilt-covered-paperback tropes of the genre are about the same as ever, as far as I can tell. GoT has always been a show with about ten shots per episode suitable for airbrushing onto the side of a van, a few hammy monologues notwithstanding I don't think that's changed markedly. Plus I think the skull speech was hammy in part because the show needed to quickly sketch in the "who are these guys and why do we hate them" with some characters we haven't seen in like a season, so there's not a lot of time for subtle character work.
posted by Diablevert at 1:13 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I've been saying since ep1 that this season is oddly cheesy compared to the previous ones
I think cheesy is a better word than lighthearted for the scene I described earlier. Starting with the big, dramatic reveal of Pod's face (as Jamie is giving Brienne all that gear), down to handing him the axe and watching him scamper to fit her horse, cheese all the way through.
posted by GrapeApiary at 1:14 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


She is killing it. We've seen sad drunk Cersi before but I pretty much turned to the SO and said " wow, that is so not her first glass this evening and why do I get this creeping feeling she's going to do something everybody is gonna regret?"
posted by The Whelk at 1:15 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Regarding the background rape at Craster's Keep, while I agree that it seemed a bit over-the-top gratuitous in the way it was filmed, I don't object to them deciding to depict the rape of these women on screen.

Non-spoilery book-vs-show comparison: One of the main advantages the show has over the books is that the show is not limited by GRRM's POV characters narrative structure. In the books, when Sam (our POV character) leaves Craster's Keep with Gilly, that's the last we see of the mutineers*. But you can easily guess what happens next to the women left behind and it probably goes pretty much like what we saw in the episode.

So, is the show really "worse" than the books because it shows us these rapes, or is it just being more honest about consequences that previously had been easier to ignore because they happen off-page?

Yeah, it's upsetting. But it's supposed to be. I like that we're finally seeing what happens to the minor characters after our POV heroes abandon them.

*Also not a spoiler because it's clear that the show is deviating significantly from the books on the Craster's Keep plotline. So don't take "last we see of the mutineers" as a clue to what will happen with them in the show.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:24 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


I somehow managed to completely forget who Locke was

I too forgot completely and was wondering why Count Rugen was at the wall.
posted by elizardbits at 1:33 PM on April 28, 2014 [20 favorites]


Where are Brienne and Pod going, anyway? If they're looking for Sansa, shouldn't they be questioning people who were at the wedding and might have seen her leave? Brienne and Pod could be the Holmes and Watson of King's Landing.
posted by homunculus at 1:52 PM on April 28, 2014


Friendship will guide them.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:56 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


showbiz_liz: "I somehow managed to completely forget who Locke was, and I was like "ooo who is this nice man helping Jon out?" I am an idiot"

I was like "Is he from The Princess Bride?"
posted by I am the Walrus at 1:58 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I also totally spaced that we'd seen that friendly crow-in-training before. And I watched the first three seasons about month ago. I was off work! Gimme a break!
posted by mzurer at 2:00 PM on April 28, 2014


Friendship will guide them.

....oh with Brienne The Knight and Pod The Squire the searching will never end it's Finding Sansa Tiiiiiiiime.
posted by The Whelk at 2:02 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Some interesting things this episode:

Opening scene: Grey Worm talks about being taken from his home as a baby into slavery.
Closing scene: a baby is taken from his home to the White Walkers.

Both Grey Worm and Jon Snow give rousing call-to-arms-type speeches.

Olly, the kid who the Thenns sent to Castle Black, (who is a show-only character) says he's a good archer. I gotta think this will come back somehow.

Lots of mentoring relationships: Littlefinger/Sansa, Olenna/Margaery, Margaery/Tommen, Barristan/Dany (though Dany rejects her mentor's advice).
posted by ocherdraco at 2:04 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think we actually last saw Locke two weeks ago, not just last season. So after all my "zomg you casuals never remember stuff from previous seasons" comments in MetaTalk I am feeling especially sheepish. :(
posted by Jacqueline at 2:05 PM on April 28, 2014


Yeah, we last saw him at the Dreadfort, when Roose sent Locke on his mission, and Locke and Ramsay had a bit of a bro-out over the various maimings they had accomplished since they last saw each other.
posted by ocherdraco at 2:06 PM on April 28, 2014


I recognized him, but TOTALLY missed that his name was Locke now. I was like "WTF is Vargo Hoat doing at the Wall, how did that happen?!"

+1 for paying attention, minus a million for not realizing that they cut Vargo and replaced him with a totally different character.
posted by KathrynT at 2:07 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


check yer memail Jacqueline ;-)
posted by KathrynT at 2:13 PM on April 28, 2014


The whole point of either a broadsword or a hand-and-half (aka bastard) sword is that they both require two hands to use effectively.

Yeah, but there are buffs you can get that let you wield two-handed and hand-and-a-half weapons with only a -1 penalty. Dunno if it's worth it when they're only doing 1d8 v. 1d6.

What I don't get is Jaime's metal hand doesn't fall of when he's waving it around, but Bronn can just pop it off and hit him with it? Bad design.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:54 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Friendly PSA: While the identity of the White Walker in the final scene has been revealed on HBO's website and in some show-centric wikis, please note that it has NOT been revealed to the viewers yet so let's not talk about that in this episode's thread.

Oops, soz. That said, I'd suggest conjecture would get us there eventually.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:07 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also weren't there two other Stark kids? What happened to them? I feel like I haven't even been watching this show, sometimes.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:11 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Also weren't there two other Stark kids?

Tony and Howard? They turned out alright.
posted by sparklemotion at 3:16 PM on April 28, 2014 [12 favorites]


And interesting to see Margery apparently didn't know that her family were involved in Joffrey's death.

Here's the scene. I'm wondering, why did Olenna tell Margaery the truth? Wouldn't it be more prudent for Margaery not to know? I guess she wants her granddaughter to know what she did for her, but it would have been safer for them both if Margaery didn't have to feign ignorance now.

Olenna seems pleased that Cersei's attention is on Tyrion for now. We still don't know if the tournament of the little people was deliberately meant to help frame Tyrion, as I suspect it was, but if he's executed then that distraction will be gone. Olenna made a point of telling Margaery that he didn't do it, maybe there are more plans in store for him.
posted by homunculus at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2014


Also weren't there two other Stark kids? What happened to them? I feel like I haven't even been watching this show, sometimes.

Robb-Killed
Sansa-in the company of Littlefinger
Bran-North of the wall, currently capative at Craster's Keep
Arya-tooling around the Riverlands with the Hound, who intends to sell her Lady Arryn, her aunt, up at the Eyrie. They are not nice people.
Rickon-Traveling, with the wilding woman Osha, to Umbers, a minor house of the North and ally of the Starks.
Jon Snow-the bastard, part of the Night's Watch and on his way to Craster's Keep to kill several mutinous Watchmen and possibly find his brother, who he only recently found out is still alive.
Krikel-rumored child of Catelyn's affair with Hodur, whereabouts unknown, believed to be hidden in Essos.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


No, the...the young ones. That umm, Theron (Grey Worm? Sluggy?) said he burned to bits, but then he didn't burn? And they were hanging out with...that woman? Or the beard guy? They went to stay at someone's place, and ran into Legless in a barn, and he sent them away? The...with the thing?
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


GoT has always been a show with about ten shots per episode suitable for airbrushing onto the side of a van

This is hilarious. Also, true.
posted by JenMarie at 3:19 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also weren't there two other Stark kids? What happened to them?

Not sure which two Stark kids you're referring to, so here's the current status on all of them and when they were last seen:

Robb: Dead at the Red Wedding (S03E09)

Jon: In the Night's Watch at the Wall, preparing for an assault on the mutineers at Craster's Keep (S04E04)

Sansa: In the creeptastic clutches of Littlefinger, supposedly on her to her aunt Lysa Tully-Arryn in the Vale (S04E04)

Arya: On a hilarious buddy road trip with the Hound (S04E03)

Bran: Captured by the mutineers at Craster's Keep, along with Hodor, Meera, and Jojen, his direwolf Summer, and Jon's direwolf Ghost (S04E04)

Rickon: Last seen headed to Greatjon Umber's Hold with Osha and his direwolf Shaggydog (S03E09)
posted by Jacqueline at 3:22 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah, Rickon! That little ragamuffin! And wasn't there a little Stark girl as well? A little blonde girl, younger than Rickon? Or am I thinking of Newt from Aliens?
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:23 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


No, the...the young ones. That umm, Theron ... said he burned to bits, but then he didn't burn?

You're thinking of Bran (the paraplegic warg) and Rickon (the youngest). See above.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:24 PM on April 28, 2014


And wasn't there a little Stark girl as well? A little blonde girl, younger than Rickon?

Yes, that's Krikel.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:24 PM on April 28, 2014 [6 favorites]


And wasn't there a little Stark girl as well? A little blonde girl, younger than Rickon?

Nope. The only Stark daughters are Sansa and Arya.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:25 PM on April 28, 2014


Brandon is pulling your leg about Krikel. Naughty Brandon. :P
posted by Jacqueline at 3:25 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I've gotta go away for a while guys, and take a good, long look at myself.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:26 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


Don't believe Jacqueline, she really doesn't know much about the show and rarely comments.

You're thinking of Krikel.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:26 PM on April 28, 2014 [10 favorites]


Olenna is continuing Marge's education, I was honestly surprised she wasn't in on it but of course you'd want her reaction to be genuine. If Her granddaughter is going to exceed her in ambition she needs to know every weapon at her disposal.
posted by The Whelk at 3:26 PM on April 28, 2014


WHY HAVE WE NOT TALKED ABOUT SAD HODOR IS NOW?

Hodor! Hoooodor.....
posted by The Whelk at 3:27 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


Sad Hodor was really messed up, major downer. Hope someone gets to kill the guys who were stabbing him.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:29 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Don't believe Jacqueline, she really doesn't know much about the show and rarely comments.

I suppose that posting fake information in the TV episode discussion threads is one possible strategy for keeping nonreaders guessing about whether readers are actually spoiling something with our comments, but I can't say that it's a strategy that I support. :P
posted by Jacqueline at 3:29 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Hope someone gets to kill the guys who were stabbing him. Maybe Krikel?
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:29 PM on April 28, 2014


WHY HAVE WE NOT TALKED ABOUT SAD HODOR IS NOW?

Like the Buster-injuring, I'm trying not to think about Sad Hodor this week.

Everyone will be ok next week right?
posted by sparklemotion at 3:29 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


I recognized him, but TOTALLY missed that his name was Locke now. I was like "WTF is Vargo Hoat doing at the Wall, how did that happen?!"

OH REALLY is that it? Now I am confused. I just recognized him as "hand-cutting-off mercenary" and thus in Roose Bolton's employ as an assassin. Is "Locke" just an alias?
posted by furiousthought at 3:30 PM on April 28, 2014


Saaaad Hodoring Hodor. Everybody leave the gigantic gay Irish DJ alone! That's like injuring a unicorn.
posted by The Whelk at 3:30 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


turbid dahlia, can we please sit you down with a bunch of pictures of all the different characters from the show and have you tell us each of their names and what their role is? This would be a good exercise because reasons. ;)
posted by Jacqueline at 3:31 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


(yessssssssssss we will have the next great confused GOT viewer meme yessssssssss I can already taste the virality)
posted by Jacqueline at 3:37 PM on April 28, 2014


my SO's method of Hair Color+ Major Personality Trait + Title is pretty effective and is a plot point in the early seasons! Brown Grumpy King could not have fathered Blonde Jerk Prince!
posted by The Whelk at 3:37 PM on April 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


I recognized him, but TOTALLY missed that his name was Locke now. I was like "WTF is Vargo Hoat doing at the Wall, how did that happen?!"

+1 for paying attention, minus a million for not realizing that they cut Vargo and replaced him with a totally different character.

check yer memail Jacqueline ;-)


Can I check my memail too, please? :) I've read the books and still have no idea/recollection what's going on here.
posted by torticat at 3:41 PM on April 28, 2014


Anyone who wants to know what the hell I'm talking about, memail me -- it is not particularly spoilery in the "future events" sense but I am personally extremely conservative with book/show comparative stuff so I'd prefer to keep it in memail.
posted by KathrynT at 3:46 PM on April 28, 2014


Well, for the chaps you've got The Goat, Old King Harry, Ser Fisto, Shine, The Councillor, Tyrion, Elminster, and at least three Frost Wanderers. For the girls you've got Tallboy, Crubbins, the Slag Witch, Mother Hubbard, Queen Sultry, and Queen Stabby.
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:48 PM on April 28, 2014 [6 favorites]


Oh and Krikel (sex unknown).
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:49 PM on April 28, 2014


Really? She seemed drunker in this episode than they had ever shown her. Like, withdrawn depressed kind of drunk. Defeated by life because everything sucks all at once.

Agreed. Cersei's demeanor in this week's episode reminds me of that expression, "Depression is anger without enthusiasm."


To respond in kind... really?? I feel like we have rarely seen her without a glass in her hand, not even starting with this season. She's been drinking like a fish at least since the Blackwater battle. Maybe I need to rewatch.

She'd been cold to Jaime ever since he returned, rejecting all his overtures. Which made the sept scene particularly bad, because it looked like he'd run out of patience and decided just to take what she was unwilling to give.

But what was it that made you guys think she seemed drunker than usual? She was angry, yes, and out for blood, but that was all a direct continuation of her feelings following the assassination of Joffrey.
posted by torticat at 3:52 PM on April 28, 2014


Back to Olenna and Littlefinger pointedly confessing to the murders. Why? Didn't they give us enough clues last week that it was them. What did it do for the story to spell it out so clearly in the next episode? Seems like if Littlefinger would kill his conspirators, then the last thing he would do was tell a young naive girl the while story. And Olenna is just way to cool to need credit.
posted by double bubble at 3:52 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


WHELK STOP HODORING IT IS TOO SAD grahhh cannot unsee :(
posted by lonefrontranger at 3:53 PM on April 28, 2014


That's like injuring a unicorn.

Yeah exactly, except...everything.
posted by goethean at 3:55 PM on April 28, 2014


[stupid iphone. I always manage to hit post accidentally half way through. Thank the others for the edit button or I'd sound like a loon.]
posted by double bubble at 3:56 PM on April 28, 2014


Oh good cuz that cut off made you sound like you'd been murdered halfway through your comment and I wondered if Littlefinger and Olenna had breached the fourth wall and were now silencing us as part of the coverup.
posted by Jacqueline at 3:58 PM on April 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


if Littlefinger would kill his conspirators, then the last thing he would do was tell a young naive girl the while story.

LF is grooming Sansa, and like I said I think in last week's thread, he doesn't care if she knows how the sausage is made and actually wants her to. She's got NOWHERE else to turn, so it's fairly safe for him.

I agree that Olenna's confession seemed unnecessary, and was probably more for the viewers' benefit than for Margaery's. Although--similar to Littlefinger--Olenna also may want to start gently (!) introducing Margaery to the need for occasional ruthlessness. So she drops her hint and then quickly steers the conversation away.
posted by torticat at 4:03 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Well if they had you would know for sure right after they drop a few pointed hints next Sunday and then spell it out in detail the next week. No mystery here, no ser.
posted by double bubble at 4:04 PM on April 28, 2014


Nice parallels, torticat -- it seems that both Littlefinger and Olenna are grooming younger proteges to play the game of thrones.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:06 PM on April 28, 2014


I somehow managed to completely forget who Locke was, and I was like "ooo who is this nice man helping Jon out?" I am an idiot.

I can't claim to be any better. I am beyond terrible with faces, so I have a hard time recognising TV characters. My non-reading SO was the one who spotted him ("why is the guy who cut off Jaime's hand at the Wall?").

On the rape scenes in Craster's Keep: at least one rape is explicitly described in the book, from Sam's POV just before he leaves the Keep (ASOS, Samwell II - chapter summary). I agree that they weren't necessary, but it's not a case of the showrunners making something up out of nothing.
posted by Pink Frost at 4:07 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


It bugged me more that what was shown was more like "kill one master in a corridor". I get that it's pragmatic "we can't afford to show the big battles" business, but I feel like it's having a diminishing effect on Dany's storyline -- it makes her victories seem small and trivial.

Kyle, just wanted to say my husband had EXACTLY the same reaction. He thought if the show could devote like a whole season's worth of budget & resources to the Blackwater battle, they could have done a little more for Dany's biggest conquest so far than one dude getting stabbed in an alley.

(Personally I hate battle scenes and didn't mind, but it does seem way out of proportion, and yes, diminishing of Danaerys's military achievements.)
posted by torticat at 4:09 PM on April 28, 2014


I hope it means that they're saving up their budget so they can blow it all on dragons and direwolves.
posted by Jacqueline at 4:11 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I thought the OKAY THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED IN CASE YOU MISSED IT, VIEWERS scene explaining the poisoning conspiracy was a little overwrought on Olenna's part but ..whAtever.

But what was it that made you guys think she seemed drunker than usual? She was angry, yes, and out for blood, but that was all a direct continuation of her feelings following the assassination of Joffrey.

I think it was just how it was shot? Like the camera was really focusing on those constant refills and big ass tankard of wine while she's being cold and upset and scary. Like before she drinks a lot but it's kind of background thing ha ha Cersi has a drinking problem but now it's really in the viewer's face, HEY LOOK HOW BIG THIS GLASS IS, THAT'S CLEARLY HER THIRD, OH DEAR.
posted by The Whelk at 4:11 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


I actually think they were using a fairly wide angle lens when we came into the scene. They have a tendency to distort things and even without distortions are generally unflattering for human faces.
posted by mzurer at 4:14 PM on April 28, 2014


furiousthought: "OH REALLY is that it? Now I am confused. I just recognized him as "hand-cutting-off mercenary" and thus in Roose Bolton's employ as an assassin. Is "Locke" just an alias?"

No, Locke is not an alias. Locke is the name of the character in the show who cuts off Jaime's hand, is in the employ of Roose Bolton, and has been sent by Bolton to Castle Black in an attempt to find Bran and Rickon. He is a pretty bog-standard Westerosi dude from the North who happens to be vicious and working for the also vicious Bolton, so he feels he can let his cruel nature shine through with actions like the hand chopping. (Qyburn, the ex-maester Cersei now prefers to Pycelle, was in the group of Bolton's men that Locke was leading when he captured Jaime.)

Vargo Hoat is the name of the character in the books who cuts off Jaime's hand. His role has been entirely replaced by Locke in the show, though their paths are not identical. Hoat is the lisping leader of the Bloody Mummers, a group of particularly vicious sellswords who have not shown up in the show, their role seeming to be entirely replaced by the group of Bolton's men that Locke was leading. Hoat is from Qohor, one of the nine free cities in western Essos. (As with Bolton's men in the show, in the books, Qyburn is introduced tagging along with the Bloody Mummers and taking care of Jaime's stump after his hand has been cut off.)
posted by ocherdraco at 4:25 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


In the opening shot of that scene with Cersei, she's also noticeably wobblier than we've seen her when she's been drinking previously (though she seems to stop wobbling when she starts talking to Jaime).
posted by ocherdraco at 4:26 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


But what was it that made you guys think she seemed drunker than usual?

It's in the framing and her acting at the very beginning of the scene; the camera lingers on her and you see her drooping a bit, as if she's on the verge of passing out but hiding it well. We've seen her a bit sloppy before and other characters have remarked on it --- she was totes trashed for the Blackwater battle, but that was a pretty stressful event --- but they definitely seem to be suggesting her drinking has gotten worse.

As an aside, it's been funny watching you and rue debate, toricat, because I think you're both right about your chosen favorite, and would agree with your sympathetic readings of each. That's what I like about the writing and acting on GoT, there's real depth. Jamie's temperament is a puzzle to me in some ways in the context of the show, maybe I'll post about it later when I can think how to explain what I mean.
posted by Diablevert at 4:32 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]




I understand that there are real and frankly accurate criticisms about the behavior at Craster's Keep as over the top for the point of titillation. Maybe that's true, wouldn't surprise me. But, there's one point about the watch that I think gets lost in the TV show and could use the occasional bit of reinforcement: the lion's share of the people of the Watch are legit bad people, pressganged into service in the middle of nowhere in payment of some debt to society. I think it's important to remember that, because the only Watch the viewer really follows are the *exception* to the rule: Benjen Stark, Mormont, Snow, Sam - hell, even Locke's bullshit Valjean story. We see the noble and the good Watch, but most of the rank and file of the people at Castle Black are unrepentant murders, thieves, and rapists. They don't really lose those impulses just because they say some words in a church, and frankly there is a huge danger in giving these assholes weapons, as the fate of Mormont demonstrates. It's really only the leadership that tends to be any sort of highborn, and whatever leadership structure that exists is dancing a delicate balancing act by not only keeping them together as a unified group, but actively arming and training them.

The scene isn't a hill I'm keen to die on, so I don't want to be seen as concocting excuses. There are certainly other ways to choose to demonstrate this fact about the Watch, but it might be some of the motivation intended: to remind these people that the Watch are, frankly, a pretty untrustworthy line of defense against whatever is coming out of the North.
posted by absalom at 5:28 PM on April 28, 2014 [16 favorites]


I love that everybody forgets that Sansa has kind of tried to kill Joffrey twice. First, when she made the move to shove him off the bridge before the Hound pulled her back, and second when she goaded him into fighting in the vanguard at Blackwater (but then Cersei called him back before he had the chance.) She's not generally totally innocent or anything, just innocent of this.

As for Dany, well, I like that I can't be sure exactly how the show is going to deal with her from here on, but we're pretty clearly into a situation where's she's bought her own hype about the Mhysa stuff and is going to be making some poor decisions. Which, you know, about damn time. I love Dany but she needs to go through a lot before she's going to be ready to take over Westeros. It's like what Tywin said (and I'm pretty sure Ned said back in Season 1 as well) that Robert thought that winning was the same thing as ruling. Dany is at that point right now. And it's not just with her conquering, either. Dany is getting addicted to the adulation and is making decisions based on crowd favor. Anyone familiar with Urinetown knows how that turns out.

Interestingly, Cersei also has the winning=ruling thing going on, but because her position is so much more tenuous it's a continual battle for her. She has no single good idea of what to do with power but she must have it because she must rule because that means she wins and you win or you die. Hell yes she's paranoid.

When Jaime gave Brienne the sword, and then turned to the armor under the sheet saying he had something else for her, my immediate joking response to my friends was "Pod?" Because, you know, the idea of Jaime keeping Podrick under a sheet as a surprise for Brienne was and is deeply amusing to me. Imagine my surprise a minute later.

Finally, to answer a question posed at Castle Black: A cripple being hauled on a sled through the snow by a simpleton moves at the rate of one Hodor per Hodor.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:01 PM on April 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


Is it weird that I'm hoping for a shot of a white walker nursery filled with wraith-like blue-eyed tots?

Speaking of white walkers, we know that the bodies of wights don't rot. The babies are WWs rather than wights, but apparently they grow - otherwise, there will really be a nursery full of eternally preserved blue-eyed babies somewhere in the north.
posted by ersatz at 6:05 PM on April 28, 2014


Is it weird that I'm hoping for a shot of a white walker nursery filled with wraith-like blue-eyed tots?


Ice, Ice Baby keeps going through my head when seeing the White Walker riding with the baby.

(self link)
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:27 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Everyone On Game Of Thrones Is An Amateur Compared To Littlefinger

I disagree. Varys is better.

I wrote a thing about Harry Potter for a different site a million years ago, where the point was analyzing the chess game in book one for predictions about what would happen later in the series. My main point was that the smartest thing Ron does in the game is to take the role of the knight, and be willing to sacrifice himself to win the game. Basically, in the chess game between Dumbledore and Voldemort, Dumbledore would be willing to choose to be a knight, and to sacrifice himself, while Voldemort could only conceive of being King, and sacrificing others, and that was his biggest weakness.

In the chess game between Littlefinger and Varys, Varys is playing for the realm while Littlefinger is playing for Littlefinger.Varys has a thousand people loyal to him because nobody else even considers them as players. Littlefinger forces people's hands and everybody hates him, more or less. Also, Varys has goals and plans and contingencies. Littlefinger wants "everything" and thinks that chaos is a ladder.

Littlefinger is smart - very, very smart - but Varys is wiser. Also, unlike Voldemort and DUmbledore, Varys doesn't care about honor so much, as long as the realm survives. Littlefinger is on the seas with a fugitive heading to the damned Aerie to regroup. Varys is plotting a dragon invasion from his seat at the small council (to judge based on the conversation Arya overheard in S1.)

Between the two of them, my money's on Varys every time.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:35 PM on April 28, 2014 [14 favorites]


Between the two of them, my money's on Varys every time.

Varys turned Ros, one of Littlefinger's prostitutes, into a spy. Littlefinger found out and had sold her to Joffrey. Littlefinger just orchestrated the murder of a King, nobody suspects him and he's headed north to cement his power base even further.

Don't bet on Varys every time.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:42 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


Oh right on - they are worthy adversaries for sure and there will be individual moments, but Varys has the longer view and a better understanding of how to get there. In the coming storm (not meant in a spoilery way because I don't know what will happen here) Baelish might be able to use the chaos but Varys will be the one behind it.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:49 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Varys is playing for the realm while Littlefinger is playing for Littlefinger.

I'm not actually sure what or who Littlefinger is playing for. Wasn't he the one who said (to Sansa) that it's best that nobody knows what you want so they can't predict how you're going to try and get it? It's odd to me that he's unmarried and has no heirs (not even bastards?), especially since that's a clear but inexplicable and, in the context of Westeros, unique choice that he's made for himself. Probably the oddest thing I've ever noticed him doing was when he started that in-depth conversation with Varys by asking detailed questions about Varys's castration as a lead up to flattering Varys and telling him how much he admires him. Wtf? Littlefinger is much *weirder* than Varys. Comparing them is like comparing apples and oranges because of that.

Varys has had a strange life, and he's a brilliant man, but his motivations and preoccupations are relatively easy to grasp. He also explains himself fairly well. For example, when he wanted to get on Tyrion's good side, he told him the story of the sorcerer and then showed Tyrion the bound and imprisoned sorcerer. Got it. In contrast, when Littlefinger wants to get on Varys's good side, he has a conversation like I brought up above.


posted by rue72 at 7:06 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Man, you just reminded me that this season so far lacks anything equaling "do you live in fear of my gash?" and that makes me sad
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:09 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


While we are ranking schemers, how about the Queen of Thorns? Olenna Tyrell seems like she is in the same league as Varys and Lord Baelish.
posted by Area Man at 7:10 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


It's odd to me that he's unmarried and has no heirs (not even bastards?), especially since that's a clear but inexplicable and, in the context of Westeros, unique choice that he's made for himself.

This is pretty clear-cut in the show, I think. He never married because his icy twisted heart belonged solely to Catelyn. Now he's off to marry Cat's sister, what with Cat being dead and all. And bringing Cat's comely daughter along.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:11 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


Sansa's had some smart moments for a while. It's just usually smarter for her to keep her mouth shut. She can be naive, but she's been double-majoring the school of hard knocks.

Littlefinger is such a terrific villain. He is evil, and he is not ashamed to be evil. His evil seems to give him vigor and strength. He is Chaotic Evil, and not of the "hoo hoo crazy" Joker variety.

Sad Hodor makes my blood boil. I can only pray that his assailants will all fart themselves to death.

Margaery is playing the game smart and well. I assume, sadly, that her general competence and relative decency means that she is destined for a cruel and bloody death.

Olenna Tyrell is most definitely the Best Grandma Ever. Droppin' bodies.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:16 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


Oh, and last week's rape just made this episode super weird, and not in a good way.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:18 PM on April 28, 2014 [7 favorites]


Man, you just reminded me that this season so far lacks anything equaling "do you live in fear of my gash?" and that makes me sad

I feel like Littlefinger walks around in a palpable cloud of inappropriate sexual tension. He wears it like cologne. I want a bottle episode of Varys and Littlefinger wondering around together chatting all night, "Before Sunrise"-style.

This is pretty clear-cut in the show, I think. He never married because his icy twisted heart belonged solely to Catelyn. Now he's off to marry Cat's sister, what with Cat being dead and all. And bringing Cat's comely daughter along.

I know they keep trying to sell the "Littlefinger loves Catelyn/the Tullys" but I just can't buy it. Because Littlefinger is just so freaking *weird.* And also because that kind of storybook love doesn't actually exist in this show's world, it's just something told to children like Sansa to romanticize their shitty role in life, so as to keep their resistance to a minimum.

Sad Hodor makes my blood boil. I can only pray that his assailants will all fart themselves to death.

That scene killed me. What I found most interesting about it, though, was how the already very burly and scary man, at the end, spat on Hodor and said, "if I were your size, I'd rule the world." Those men saw Hodor as *lucky*? They were *jealous* of him?!
posted by rue72 at 7:20 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I know they keep trying to sell the "Littlefinger loves Catelyn/the Tullys" but I just can't buy it. Because Littlefinger is just so freaking *weird.* And also because that kind of storybook love doesn't actually exist in this show's world, it's just something told to children like Sansa to romanticize their shitty role in life, so as to keep their resistance to a minimum.

Not love. Jesus no. Littlefinger is the ultimate Nice Guy™, believing that he was entitled to Catelyn because he really wanted her and those Stark boys were dumb jocks.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:24 PM on April 28, 2014 [13 favorites]


That scene killed me. What I found most interesting about it, though, was how the already very burly and scary man, at the end, spat on Hodor and said, "if I were your size, I'd rule they world." Those men saw Hodor as *lucky*? They were *jealous* of him?!

Yeah, right? I saw it as, these mutineers are the worst sort of bullies and tinpot dictators. They "rule" a degraded home of long-abused women and girls. They have the tiniest bit of power, and so they run with it. They're drunk on the power they have, even though anybody with a shred of decency could see that, even in the annals of villainy, these guys have NOTHING to be proud of. NOTHING.

So, when somebody like Hodor comes along, who's just a physically large dude, they're in some way threatened by that. Hodor is not allowed to be bigger than they are. It has to be more fodder for their bullying and cruel, shitty dreams.

Littlefinger is the ultimate Nice Guy™

Maybe, but you can't ever really take that title away from Jorah Mormont.

(tips a blizzard of a thousand fedoras, each one more m'lady than the next)
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:27 PM on April 28, 2014 [15 favorites]


I saw it as, these mutineers are the worst sort of bullies and tinpot dictators.

Maybe. But they did see the Wights and Walkers up close and lost most of their brothers in that battle. They've seen the end of the world and some of them just don't give a damn anymore and are letting their bad sides run wild.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:46 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


So having just rewatched the episode with my husband, I think the reason that Cersei comes across as hitting the sauce much harder than usual in this episode is that her wine cup literally does not leave her hand once during the entire scene and is in fact often held near or in front of her face in the majority of her shots.

So there was a super-heavy visual emphasis on the wine this episode. The cinematography was broadcasting a very clear message: "See Cersei. See Cersei drink. Drink, Cersei, drink."

The only other time I can remember seeing her wine cup featured so prominently in her shots was back during the Battle of the Blackwater, and even then I don't know if it was nearly as omnipresent as it was in this scene.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:19 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


Yeah we know Cersei is a lush but we haven't seen Drunk Wobbly Wineglass Never Leaves Her Hand Cersei since like, the battle of Blackwater where she's convinced she's going to die.
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah, what I said last night was, "and thus starts the period wherein Cersei is never seen without wine in her hand."
posted by Navelgazer at 8:23 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I hope she gets one of those double-beercan hats.
posted by Sticherbeast at 8:25 PM on April 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


"It's not easy being drunk all the time. If it were easy, everyone would do it."

It's a shame that Cersei and Tyrion don't get along. They have such similar hobbies. :)
posted by Jacqueline at 8:25 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


He is the God of Tits and Wine (nsfw).
posted by homunculus at 8:38 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]




I know they keep trying to sell the "Littlefinger loves Catelyn/the Tullys" but I just can't buy it. Because Littlefinger is just so freaking *weird.* And also because that kind of storybook love doesn't actually exist in this show's world, it's just something told to children like Sansa to romanticize their shitty role in life, so as to keep their resistance to a minimum.

I don't think it's meant to portray storybook love, but more that Littlefinger is creepily obsessed, fixated, monomaniacal about Catelyn and considered her as this prize he deserved but was cruelly and unjustly deprived of.
posted by JenMarie at 8:50 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


Yeah, I don't think Littlefinger was ever in love with anyone but Littlefinger. But his conception of himself has always included possession of Cat.
posted by ocherdraco at 8:55 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Littlefinger is creepily obsessed, fixated, monomaniacal about Catelyn and considered her as this prize he deserved but was cruelly and unjustly deprived of.

Yes, spot-on.

Here's an excerpted transcript of the sexposition scene in S01E07:
(Context: Ros is applying for a job in Littlefinger's brothel, and as part of the interview she's sexing up another applicant while Littlefinger observes.)

Ros: Why don't you join us, My Lord?

Littlefinger: I'm saving myself for another.

Ros: What she doesn't know won't hurt her.

Littlefinger: A stupid saying. What we don't know is usually what gets us killed.

Ros: She must be very beautiful.

Littlefinger: No, not really. Impeccable bloodlines though.

Ros: I do believe My Lord's in love.

Littlefinger: For many years. Most of my life really. (Play with her ass.) And she loved me too. I was her little confidant, her plaything. She could tell me anything, anything at all. She told me about all the horses that she liked, the castle she wanted to live in and the man that she wanted to marry. A northerner with a jaw like an anvil.

Littlefinger: So I challenged him to a duel. I mean, why not? I'd read all the stories. The little hero always beats the big villain in all the stories. In the end, she wouldn't even let him kill me. "He's just a boy," she said. "Please don't hurt him." So he gave me a nice little scar to remember him by and off they went.

Ros: Is she still married to him?

Littlefinger: Oh no. He got himself killed before the wedding... And she ended up with his brother, an even more impressive specimen. She loves him, I'm afraid. And why wouldn't she? I mean, who could compare to him? He's just so... Good.

Littlefinger: Do you know what I learned, losing that duel? I learned that I'll never win, not that way. That's their game, their rules. I'm not going to fight them. I'm going to fuck them. That's what I know. That's what I am. And only by admitting what we are can we get what we want.

Ros: And what do you want?

Littlefinger: Oh, everything, my dear. Everything there is.
So it's not just that he was obsessed with having Catelyn Tully, but that obsession became interwoven with his insecurity about his social standing and his ambition to beat the other nobles. It's all one big twisted mess of desire, resentment, and lust for power.

Now, compare his conversation with Ros in season one with his exchange with Sansa in this week's episode:
Littlefinger: I'd risk everything to get what I want.

Sansa: And what do you want?

Littlefinger: Everything.
As he answers "Everything," he caresses her arm and runs his eyes over her chest before looking her in the face again. IRRC, he didn't touch the prostitutes who worked for him in his brothel even though he could have any of them whenever he wanted, yet he DOES caress Sansa Stark.

Littlefinger's desire for "everything" in a political power sense seems to be fundamentally intertwined with his desire for the bodies of Tully women.

SO. FUCKING. CREEPY.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:10 PM on April 28, 2014 [15 favorites]


I just noticed that both Littlefinger and Sansa share a common theme of growing up expecting real life to be just like in the stories and then being very painfully disappointed when it wasn't.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:12 PM on April 28, 2014 [6 favorites]


Yeah, I don't think Littlefinger was ever in love with anyone but Littlefinger. But his conception of himself has always included possession of Cat.

That's the thing, I just don't buy that he actually cares all that much about that. I mean, maybe he's the Jay Gatsby of the story, but even Gatsby had a girlfriend! The thing of Littlefinger having no bastards or paramours but working essentially as pimp and having inappropriate sexual tension with *everyone* just makes me think that something weirder is afoot.

Littlefinger: Do you know what I learned, losing that duel? I learned that I'll never win, not that way. That's their game, their rules. I'm not going to fight them. I'm going to fuck them. That's what I know. That's what I am. And only by admitting what we are can we get what we want.

He says right there that after the dual he thought, basically, fuck that noise. Why would he still "save himself" for her after that? Even if it was about possessing Catelyn, there's nothing to say he could *only* possess Catelyn.

I just noticed that both Littlefinger and Sansa share a common theme of growing up expecting real life to be just like in the stories and then being very painfully disappointed when it wasn't.

Yes, exactly, that's what I meant about "storybook love" (or "storybook" anything really) and it not having a place in reality.
posted by rue72 at 9:15 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


If I didn't know that GRRM's development of Littlefinger's character predated the era of PUA internet communities, I'd assume that he'd gotten his inspiration from those forums.

Make a slight update to Littlefinger's vocabulary and he's basically whining to Ros about how unfair it was that the girl he wanted "friendzoned" him despite him being such a "nice guy." His characterization of how Catelyn treated him contains that old familiar implicit assumption that a certain number of friendship inputs should entitle one to a commensurate number of sex outputs.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:25 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I thought the rapes in Craster while horrible on scene were better in theme than the rape of Cersei last week. Someone above called them a hieronymus bosch painting come alive, and that was part of it - the grime, the sense of dull futility, the absence of any glamourisation of what was happening.

And there's so much about the basic life of ordinary people in GOT. Life is harsh and brutal.

The crucification of the masters made perfect sense to me. Danny just marched her freedman army past 137 miles of dead slave children. She now rules a city where 3/4 of the people are recently freed and brutally treated slaves. A symbolic gesture like that establishes her far better with her main supporters and she can show justice to the surviving families after this from a position of power.

There's a very clear sense in the show that the further North you go, the closer you are to survival and animal existence. It's only down south in Westeros, that you have the time to have civilisation. Up North, there's no code past vows that can and are broken, and surviving. Trade with a man who sacrifices infants because the alternative is death. Down south, you have more options.

Then you go over to where it's almost always summer - over on the Inland Sea with Danny, where no-one is talking about stocking up for winter and you have crumbling cities from great empires still thriving on slave labor, and you have societies that are constricted by the weight of their own civilized culture.
posted by viggorlijah at 9:36 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


The sheer vulnerability of a lot of the women we've seen is really chilling. Craster's "wives," that tavern owner's daughter (where Arya and The Hound slaughter the bad guys), the young daughter of the farmer The Hound robs. There's pretty much nothing whatsoever stopping these roving bands of men from having their way with these women.
posted by JenMarie at 9:55 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


Jacqueline, Nice Guys are eternal, omnipresent, and exist even in other worlds. They are legion and EVERYWHERE.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:01 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


a hieronymus bosch painting come alive

there was a notable absence of anyone using anyone else's anus as a flowerpot
posted by elizardbits at 10:08 PM on April 28, 2014 [5 favorites]


there was a notable absence of anyone using anyone else's anus as a flowerpot

Shhh, no book spoilers!
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:13 PM on April 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


That hasn't just spoiled the book, it's spoiled my Friday night.
posted by turbid dahlia at 10:16 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


asoiaf book 6: the godswood of unearthly delights
posted by elizardbits at 10:28 PM on April 28, 2014 [4 favorites]


tbh i see asoiaf more as a series of goya's works than bosch's

saturn devouring his son is clearly a targaryen

yard with lunatics and/or the madhouse are craster's keep

los caprichos serve as the background for the entire series
posted by elizardbits at 10:32 PM on April 28, 2014 [1 favorite]


why do i have these art feelings at 130am
posted by elizardbits at 10:32 PM on April 28, 2014 [3 favorites]


better than having fart feelings
posted by Jacqueline at 10:35 PM on April 28, 2014


the real moral of this story is don't panic and eat that big piece of hash when the guardia civil stop you outside the prado, they only wanted to tell you that you left your motorbike headlights on
posted by elizardbits at 10:39 PM on April 28, 2014 [2 favorites]


I can't watch the guy trying to drink from a skull without thinking of the sad thirsty king and now I've spent an hour rereading all of Oglaf.
posted by rewil at 11:54 PM on April 28, 2014 [8 favorites]


Maybe the writers are going to do something clever like have Jon Snow not murder all of mutineers in a spectacle of gore, but it certainly looks like the writers are setting up a hovel full of people that we don't have to feel conflicted about Jon Snow murdering in said spectacle of gore with his wolf pal.

I think it would have revealed more about Jon Snow's character if the mutineers were actually decent people and Jon Snow were forced to make even marginally hard choices. Like, what if the mutineers had saved rather than captured Bran? Then Jon would have to choose between loyalty to his family vs. loyalty to the watch.
posted by Pyry at 12:09 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


If Creeplefinger wasn't so inherently creepy and slimy, I would love to see him and Sansa team up to form an awesome ultimate web of subterfuge that eventually brings down every villain on a massive scale, but only after *those* two team up with Team Arya/Hound, combining cunning with stealth and combat skillz.
posted by tracicle at 3:04 AM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


OK, so I kinda loved this episode, possibly more than any other this season (except the Purple Wedding). I like how it is structured so that the two big set pieces that bookend it mirror each other.

First, we have Grey Worm being all just and inspiring the slaves to victory over their masters, freeing themselves in the process. However, the scene with Dany being all ruthless and taking her place in her massive, lonely fortress shows how misplaced Grey Worm et al's faith in her might be.

Then, the Burn Gorman character (name escapes me) also sees himself and the other mutineers as essentially slaves, who honestly believe that they have freed themselves from the supposed tyranny of the highborn and their feudal structures. There is certainly a parallel between the Unsullied and the Night's Watch.

I love the way that the show is perverting any and all of the things viewers could sorta rely on: that Dany is good and just, that the Night's Watch are good and just. Looking back, it's always been more complicated than that, but now I've not the foggiest idea who to root for and I really, really enjoy that feeling.

(But yeah, I could do without the general policy of add-a-rape-to-up-the-stakes.)
posted by dumdidumdum at 3:55 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


You root for Tyrion obviously. Tyrion and Pod and Tallboy. Snow is kinda boring just like actual snow. I root for the wolves of course, and Ser Pounce, and I guess Joffrey Far From The Tree by association. Also Hodor. Jean Reado and Alligator Girl at Skullfist Fort are cool too. The rest are a bit whatevs.
posted by turbid dahlia at 4:55 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


the Night's Watch are good and just

The Night's Watch is a press-gang of criminals and exiles (though some were falsely accused or losers in power struggles). Its purpose is good and just (though ridiculed by many who have lost belief that there are real threats beyond the wall) but we are meant to understand that its members are largely stigmatized in the rest of society, and that many are very bad people indeed.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:40 AM on April 29, 2014 [4 favorites]


Pod and Brienne better live up to my dreams as being as great as the Ayra/Hound and Tyrion/Bronn double acts.

As for Jaime, if you've got a solid metal hand, even if you didn't have a custom dagger version for fighting, surely you'd at least use the METAL HAND to deflect sword blows. I mean the shape of the hand seems like it would be ideal for catching a sword blade and then stabbing your opponent in the gut with your sword.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:47 AM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


turbid dahlia: "Ser Fisto"

I missed that sexposition scene
posted by I am the Walrus at 5:59 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


I'm intrigued to see where they go with Daenerys. It was obvious that the other shoe was going to drop eventually - I just don't know what that other shoe will be.

The crucification of the masters made perfect sense to me. Danny just marched her freedman army past 137 miles of dead slave children. She now rules a city where 3/4 of the people are recently freed and brutally treated slaves. A symbolic gesture like that establishes her far better with her main supporters and she can show justice to the surviving families after this from a position of power.

It seems well-calculated to have Daenarys responding more or less in kind to a hideous atrocity. She is not a monster. She is responding to evil. Nobody is going to weep for the Masters of Meereen. The problem is that responding in kind does not always work out. What she's doing is "just" by the standards of fictional morality - and yet, there are good reasons why we don't support crucifixion in the modern world. It's not just out of mercy to the criminals, although there is also that.

I honestly don't know where Daeny's story is going, but I look forward to seeing it unfold. GRRM has gone on record as saying that he doesn't like straight-up good vs. evil morality plays, so it's good to see that her story is becoming more complicated.
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:18 AM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also, from the wife: "Why doesn't she just set up shop in the city-states she's freed? Screw Westeros, she's got a better thing going."
posted by Sticherbeast at 7:20 AM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


Also, from the wife: "Why doesn't she just set up shop in the city-states she's freed? Screw Westeros, she's got a better thing going."

That's Dany's version of 'believing fairytale stories.' She grew up hearing nothing but how she was one of the last true rulers of Westeros, and she hasn't even recognized it as baggage yet, much less set it aside.

Also:
The drinking out of a skull thing would've bothered me a lot more, but it was Burn Gorman and all I could think was, "They should've sent Owen Harper to the Wall a lot sooner."
posted by mordax at 7:56 AM on April 29, 2014 [5 favorites]


Ser Fisto

More of a Ser Jitsu, really. Fisto had a big silver, you know, fist, whereas Jitsu's gold hand is damn near exactly the same as Jaime's, to the point that I wonder if it might actually be what they based it on.

/He-Man and the Pedants of the Universe
posted by Sys Rq at 8:18 AM on April 29, 2014 [4 favorites]


It's an unfair world if Natalie Dormer does not become an actual Queen in real life.
posted by shothotbot at 8:48 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


I honestly don't know where Daeny's story is going, but I look forward to seeing it unfold. GRRM has gone on record as saying that he doesn't like straight-up good vs. evil morality plays, so it's good to see that her story is becoming more complicated.

You know, it's interesting; I think most people think that some complication is about due for her storyline, and the presumption has been that she will in some way be humbled, will fail. Because this will humanise her again, we anticipate that she will weigh things differently if she comes to understand the possibility of loss, may be more willing to negotiate, to compromise and show mercy if she comes to understand that it's better to turn your enemies to allies and put them to work than simply to destroy them.

But it would be equally interesting if she just keeps on winning and grows more and more merciless as a result --- just, perhaps, but merciless. Just trucks right on, making people bow before her and crushing those who will not, and amassing more and more power. Making the trains run on time, as it were. That's the other iconography her standing in front of that flag on the tower could evoke. Even the Lannisters might look pretty good then, with their human scale problems and betrayals, verses pure implacable might.
posted by Diablevert at 8:51 AM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


yeah Dany standing on the tower in front of that giant banner was a real creepy callout to the whole Rise of the Third Reich kind of thing.
posted by lonefrontranger at 9:38 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


If Creeplefinger wasn't so inherently creepy and slimy, I would love to see him and Sansa team up to form an awesome ultimate web of subterfuge that eventually brings down every villain on a massive scale, but only after *those* two team up with Team Arya/Hound, combining cunning with stealth and combat skillz.

Actually, forget Littlefinger and the Hound, imagine if Sansa and Arya teamed up? They're getting trained to be perfect complements in terms of their skills. It's too bad they've never really gotten along, but as adults that might not be true -- and even if it is, that doesn't mean they wouldn't be able to work together. Also too bad they're women, so if they marry to solidify alliances it'll probably decrease rather than increase their power, on net.

Speaking of odd couples, I'm hoping that Dany arrives in Westeros while Marg is queen, because imagine *them* having a tete-a-tete! Dany's all about the big knockout and Marg is all about the bob-and-weave -- I think it would be really interesting seeing them at odds.

But by then, I think that Dany might actually have completely lost it. I honestly think that her sanity isn't going to hold out much longer (total speculation, I just think there have been signs). So I think that, at the point that they're in Westeros (if they get there), Dany will probably just be a figurehead who her entourage tries frantically to contain, rather than a real player.
posted by rue72 at 11:06 AM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


So I think that, at the point that they're in Westeros (if they get there), Dany will probably just be a figurehead who her entourage tries frantically to contain, rather than a real player.

Pure speculation: Or maybe they won't be able to contain her at all and she'll be like the Mad King Aerys all over again and suddenly everyone we've hated in Westeros will seem much less bad by comparison and perhaps even elevated to the status of heroes for fighting against her.

Since GRRM seems to enjoy writing in redemptive arcs and other things that make previous "villains" much more sympathetic, why not do the flip side of that and make previous "heroes" worse and worse until one day we realize with horror that they're now the bad guys?
posted by Jacqueline at 11:44 AM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


Jacqueline, I think the argument can be made that the process is already underway. Arya is one example; I also think a similar process is underway with Bran (not to be a "villain" as I don't think the series really has them) just to be characters that we are uncomfortable with/dislike what they've become.

In Bran's case I see a certain symmetry in terms of Jaime's arc and am not willing to put it past GRRM to very deliberately work to have the audience sympathize with Jaime and dislike Bran by the end of the series.
posted by nubs at 12:03 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


I also think a similar process is underway with Bran (not to be a "villain" as I don't think the series really has them) just to be characters that we are uncomfortable with/dislike what they've become.

Yeah, Bran crossed a line for me when he warged into Hodor. It made practical sense, but it was such a screwed up thing to do. To me, that decision to warg into Hodor was sort of the opposite of how Tyrion decided he wouldn't go through with consummating his and Sansa's marriage. Bran made the practical but coercive/disrespectful choice, and Tyrion made the dangerous but more respectful choice. It's not quite the same, because Bran and his friends (including Hodor) were in immediate physical danger, and I don't think that Bran is "bad" because of it...but it did cross a moral line, I think.

Dany has always had a bloodthirsty side to her that has made me uncomfortable, though. In the first season, she was so dismissive when her brother was boiled alive in front of her, and in the second season, she was so nonchalant about tying the "witch" to her husband's funeral pyre, and of course since then, she's been an all-out general. It's not that those things are so "bad" relative to what other characters are doing, it's more that she seems to not even have to put any effort into justifying bloodthirstiness and brutality to herself. She didn't even *think twice* about crucifying those masters. I don't think she was *wrong* to do it, it just...seemed too easy for her (emotionally/morally).
posted by rue72 at 12:22 PM on April 29, 2014 [4 favorites]


For anyone who plays "Threes" on their phone: During the scene at the Night's Watch when the brothers slowly one by one started standing to join Jon Snow's mission, my brain started chiming in for each one with the "Threes" number voices. "Hullo." "Hiii." "Oh! Hey!" "Hi guys!" "Rawr!"
posted by dnash at 12:34 PM on April 29, 2014 [5 favorites]


Fisto had a big silver, you know, fist

Oh, you think they meant Fisto, but clearly they meant Fisto. He's programmed for your pleasure!
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 12:44 PM on April 29, 2014


Hi, I came here to complain about how I can't take any TV show that features harm to babies and holy shit this episode left me feeling the worst of any prior GoT episode. And after past Craster episodes, that was a high bar.
posted by Theta States at 1:02 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


the baby wasn't harmed, it was just made more awesome
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:03 PM on April 29, 2014 [8 favorites]


Dany has always had a bloodthirsty side to her that has made me uncomfortable, though. In the first season, she was so dismissive when her brother was boiled alive in front of her, and in the second season, she was so nonchalant about tying the "witch" to her husband's funeral pyre, and of course since then, she's been an all-out general. It's not that those things are so "bad" relative to what other characters are doing, it's more that she seems to not even have to put any effort into justifying bloodthirstiness and brutality to herself.

Danny has been merciless at times, but not, I think, bloodthirsty. I re-watched the scene where her brother gets it; immediately before he is killed he storms drunkenly into the tent, sticks a sword in her gut and threatens to kill her and/or cut the unborn child from her womb. And you think she was a little cold for not shedding a tear at his death? She tries to get him to back down before he gets himself in trouble, too. The witch-woman killed her son.

There's a great deal to be said for mercy, and it's not that I don't think Dany's self-righteousness is going to buy her trouble pretty soon, one way or another. But in GoT-world, ruthlessly dealing out brutal punishment to those who cross you is about the most rational course you can take.
posted by Diablevert at 1:03 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


I thought I saw a basket of baby arms next to evil Night's watch guy? What was in that basket?
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:06 PM on April 29, 2014


I thought I saw a basket of baby arms next to evil Night's watch guy? What was in that basket?

Some sort of animal leg haunches, maybe from butchering the pigs? Or preserved meat from the cold cellar? It was definitely animal haunches.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:09 PM on April 29, 2014


Yeah that baby scene totally upset me and made me leak. HBO isn't safe for new moms.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 1:09 PM on April 29, 2014 [5 favorites]


I thought I saw a basket of baby arms next to evil Night's watch guy? What was in that basket?

Yeah, I thought that's what they were too at first, and when he said, "Feed the beast," I thought he meant the White Walker. But it turned out that he meant the Dire Wolf, and I don't think that particular Dire Wolf has a taste for baby arms. They were probably rabbit legs or something.
posted by Sys Rq at 1:09 PM on April 29, 2014


Hi, I came here to complain about how I can't take any TV show that features harm to babies and holy shit this episode left me feeling the worst of any prior GoT episode.

My husband spent that whole scene rubbing my back and saying "It's all fake, that's a four month old they've smeared with fake blood and corn starch goop to look newborn, the snow is all CGI, this is being shot on a nice warm sound stage, the baby's mother is right outside of the shot, in between takes the White Walker probably chucks it under the chin and makes it grin, it's OK sweetie, SWEETIE IT'S OK IT'S ALL PRETEND."
posted by KathrynT at 1:12 PM on April 29, 2014 [12 favorites]


Yeah that baby scene totally upset me and made me leak. HBO isn't safe for new moms.

Yeah, my wife is due in three weeks, and I'm sure our tolerance for baby-violence will only plummet further.

We were instinctually bothered by the idea of a baby being left in the cold, but once it became clear that the baby wasn't going to be eaten, we relaxed. We were both wincing, and she was shielding her eyes, but we were pretty accepting of what ultimately happened. Say what one will about White Walkers, at least you know they're actually going to raise the damned thing.
posted by Sticherbeast at 1:17 PM on April 29, 2014 [4 favorites]


Ok, animal haunches make more sense honestly, just must have seen it wrong.
posted by DynamiteToast at 1:19 PM on April 29, 2014


Yeah that baby scene totally upset me and made me leak. HBO isn't safe for new moms.

Bingo.


What did they say last night? Sixty miles?

I refuse to think a fantasy kingdom wouldn't use the metric system. :)
posted by Theta States at 1:20 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


Man, people are upset about a littke baby getting turned into a fucking legend by some frost demon lord, but what about Summer? She fell in a pit of spikes!
posted by turbid dahlia at 1:27 PM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


Yeah, I just replayed and freeze-framed on the basket-o-meaty-bits and there's no way those are baby parts. The knobby bone end thing (don't know the proper anatomical term) is WAY too big.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:30 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


the baby wasn't harmed, it was just made more awesome

I'm lately semi-obsessed with the concept of the White Walkers as ascended beings – entirely innocent angels who happen to wander the earth, occasionally making meat puppets out of the dirty & vicious things that inhabit the sweltering lands to the south to keep them contained. Like, Melisandre's manichean view of the good fire god and the evil god of darkness is correct, but she's mistaken about which one is evil and which one is good.
posted by furiousthought at 1:55 PM on April 29, 2014 [8 favorites]


The knobby bone end thing (don't know the proper anatomical term) is WAY too big.

Are they adult sized?

Anyway, the way the baby was introduced ("what the fuck is that?") suggested that it was the first child born since the mutiny. At the very least, the first male child.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:00 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


what about Summer? She fell in a pit of spikes!

Are you sure there were spikes? I looked at the scene again but couldn't make any out.

I suddenly have a bad feeling that Summer might get killed and Ghost will become Bran's new companion. I hope not, but unlike on Hannibal, not even the dogs/wolves are safe on GOT.
posted by homunculus at 2:33 PM on April 29, 2014


I dunno, they looked like spikes to me, but either way she was still surprised! Unnecessary animal surprise!
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:38 PM on April 29, 2014


the baby scene was awful because who wants to spend valuable game of thrones watching time having to mute the horrible shrill piercing shrieks of an angry cold baby

also it was crappy because the baby didn't immediately ride off on a demonic pony
posted by elizardbits at 3:00 PM on April 29, 2014 [7 favorites]


It's all fake, that's a four month old they've smeared with fake blood and corn starch goop to look newborn

IIRC, the standard newborn "makeup" used on ER was cream cheese and strawberry jam.
posted by Sys Rq at 3:05 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


If Ser Pounce is cut from the show, we riot!!!

It looks like the riot might be back on: Game Of Thrones is already taking away its most adorable character yet
posted by homunculus at 3:43 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]




Dany has always had a bloodthirsty side to her that has made me uncomfortable, though. In the first season, she was so dismissive when her brother was boiled alive in front of her, and in the second season, she was so nonchalant about tying the "witch" to her husband's funeral pyre, and of course since then, she's been an all-out general. It's not that those things are so "bad" relative to what other characters are doing, it's more that she seems to not even have to put any effort into justifying bloodthirstiness and brutality to herself. She didn't even *think twice* about crucifying those masters. I don't think she was *wrong* to do it, it just...seemed too easy for her (emotionally/morally).

This just made me realize that as much as I love Dany, she has never "swung the blade," as it were. Saying "Dracarys" doesn't quite cut it there. (I just checked. There is one arguable exception to this, but it's a big one, and that is Miri Mraz Duur. Dany lights the pyre. Of course, she also wakes up with dragon hatchlings at the end of that little adventure, so it might be an exception in many ways.)
posted by Navelgazer at 5:07 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


the baby scene was awful because who wants to spend valuable game of thrones watching time having to mute the horrible shrill piercing shrieks of an angry cold baby

I felt the same way listening to the background rape noises/images during the Craster's Keep's scenes. I think you can depict people as super awful creepy awful people without having to play rape soundtracks behind important dialogue. I'm pretty much done watching GoT at this point, I'll go back and check out the books.
posted by jessamyn at 6:31 PM on April 29, 2014 [6 favorites]


I really liked the first scene this week, in focusing in on the secondary characters because I find it so elemental to the world-building in GoT.

That said, did people reading the Grey-Worm-learning-to-read as empowerment (for the character) or assimilation (to the dominant Westerosi culture) or a combination of both?
posted by warm_planet at 7:01 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


I wanted to know if Grey Worm and the other Unsullied can have sex in GRRM's world. There are plenty of ways to have sex outside of PIV, and you have a giant disciplined male army that is emotionally attached to each other and presumably (at least in the books) trained to be celibate, but Danny is breaking that down. Right now she has an army that is superior to just about every other army in this world, by having no emotional connections except to her but at some point, isn't an Unsullied going to look at someone outside the army and think "Hey, he/she's kinda nice" and want more than just the friendship of his brother Unsullieds? They will want families. The Dothrakis fixed that by bringing their families along as a giant nomadic army, the Westeros manage their kinda-crappy by comparison milirary through only fighting domestically and praying really hard that no-one comes over the Narrow Sea to invade.
posted by viggorlijah at 7:13 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm pretty much done watching GoT at this point, I'll go back and check out the books.

Unless it's just the visual/auditory medium that makes those scenes extra upsetting for you, I don't think you're gonna like the books any better. In fact, the books are actually a lot MORE triggery at times.

Although HBO has added in a LOT of gratuitous female nudity and replaced a bunch of implicit off-the-page rapes with explicit on-the-screen rapes, they've also cut out a lot of bad stuff too. There are still some things that even HBO considers to be over-the-line distasteful.

For example, the in-books description of the training of the Unsullied. Without going into detail, I'll just say that what the Masters do to the trainees (and what they make the trainees do) is so ridiculously over-the-top sickeningly evil that I cracked up laughing while reading it because it was just too farcical to be taken seriously as backstory. It was so bad that I wouldn't have been surprised if he'd ended the exposition with "...The Aristocrats!" I lost a lot of my respect for GRRM as a writer because of stuff like that.

The show's version of explaining how the Unsullied are trained cut out most of the squickier details and sort of glossed over the parts they kept. I think that one of the main advantages that the show has over the books is that the showrunners have reined in some of GRRM's weirder creative decisions in the way that his publisher's editors should have but failed to. The show's handling of the Unsullied is one of the best examples of that.

I suppose that since the written word is a less intrusive medium than TV that you could mitigate this problem by just skimming / skipping over the bad parts. But be warned that if the rape scenes in the recent episodes bother you enough to stop watching the show that there's actually much worse than that in the books.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:27 PM on April 29, 2014 [6 favorites]


Right now she has an army that is superior to just about every other army in this world, by having no emotional connections except to her but at some point, isn't an Unsullied going to look at someone outside the army and think "Hey, he/she's kinda nice" and want more than just the friendship of his brother Unsullieds? They will want families.

I actually think that they're addressing that, or at least starting to explore that, with Grey Worm's friendship with Missandei (Dany's translator). When she was asking about his birth family, he tried to shut that down right quick, and he also committed himself even more strongly to his (personal) mission of abolition. The Unsullied were trained to be tools/objects, and I think that before they can start really connecting with others as people, they're going to have learn to think of themselves as people. I think that could be a really messy process.

Grey Worm is just one character, but I think he's probably going to be our window into that world, and I think right now he's shifting from "follow orders" to "follow the (chosen) mission" and soon he might shift to "follow your heart," at least in some aspects of life, but I don't think he's gotten to that place yet. I think he's still thinking of himself as a tool to be used for a purpose, it's just that now he's discovering that he can decide on that purpose himself -- it might be a while before he starts thinking of himself as more than just a tool or other people as either masters or slaves and actually as people themselves.

Dany's army is interesting to me because virtually all the rank-and-file are either castrated men or women, but her top brass are Missandei, Grey Worm, and three macho soldier guys who aren't castrated. She also talks a big game about everyone being free, but I think she's relatively autocratic -- she's obviously in charge, and the buck stops with her. I'm not sure if her command structure actually supports her (I think genuine) ideals. I don't think she's being hypocritical at all, I think that it's more like, she's had a failure of imagination? Or maybe just not enough political theory classes, lol.

I think it means something that her freemen call her "mother," not "sister," and I think there could very well end up being some kind of rebellion against her. I doubt that anyone in her "army" would want to kill her, but I do think that they're going to want to limit her power, because I think that even though her authority isn't nearly as constrictive as their old masters, they might end up having a taste for egalitarianism that doesn't mesh well with her current style of command.
posted by rue72 at 7:29 PM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


if Grey Worm and the other Unsullied can have sex in GRRM's world

From what I understand, the training of Unsullied, includes divorcing them as much as possible from all personal relationships, so that they can be an interchangeable/unstoppable force, like an army of ants.

But Dany has changed that picture, and that's why Grey Worm's motives/context seem more intriguing, because he's been the first Unsullied to find real value in individuating himself from the group.

So whether Grey Worm could see value in having sex with Missandei seems like it could go as

1. Hey this worked out great, being part of the Unsullied horde sucks!

or

2. This really screwed things up, Unsullied is the way to go.

or the showrunners could just fail to deliver on this subplot. Siiiigh.
posted by warm_planet at 7:33 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


I wanted to know if Grey Worm and the other Unsullied can have sex in GRRM's world. There are plenty of ways to have sex outside of PIV...

The show has strongly implied that Gray Worm would like to find out for himself with Missandei.

At a minimum, it seems like the Unsullied are capable of forming romantic attachments, much like asexuals in our world. Just because someone can't or doesn't want to fuck doesn't mean that they don't still fall in love.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:36 PM on April 29, 2014


I really, really want to see more of Missandei. Not just because she's maybe the most gorgeous person on the show (though, yeah) and also somehow hasn't been overtly hyper-sexualized yet (though those days might be numbered) but because of where she fits in the narrative.

Of Dany's advisors, Jorah found her. Barristan Selmy found her. Daario more or less found her. Grey Worm took best and most immediately to freedom, and so stood out from the crowd of Unsullied. But Dany saw Missandei's value and dealt for her. Missandei is basically Dany's only "hire," in that way. Missandei is also Dany's only advisor with real experience in the diplomacy of Essos.

And I'm kind of hoping that said diplomacy is going to take a greater role in future episodes.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:48 PM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


I think that even though her authority isn't nearly as constrictive as their old masters, they might end up having a taste for egalitarianism that doesn't mesh well with her current style of command.

Daenarys did ask the Unsullied to choose their own leader. While it's never made clear exactly what process they used to select him, it seems likely that Gray Worm was democratically elected.

We also know that the Night's Watch democratically elect their Lord Commander, although Janos Slynt and Alister Thorn's conversation in this week's episode implied that once elected the position is for life.

One of the recurring themes of the series is how much the feudal system screws over everyone who isn't the Lord of a powerful House. Since GRRM's schtick is subverting fantasy tropes, I'm hoping that the end game answer to "Who will sit on the Iron Throne?" is "Nobody" because the smallfolk revolt, kill all the nobles, and institute a constitutional republic.

So I'll be keeping a close eye on the only (?) two democratic organizations in this otherwise autocratic world for hints that this form of governance might start catching on.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:56 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


Missandei is basically Dany's only "hire," in that way

I think that's part of why I loved that first scene, because Missandei is shown frequently as having her own agency and being independent, and she's choosing to use her time tutoring Grey Worm.

Is it because she knows she wants to give him a tool for further independence? or is it because she knows that literacy is a key to further power in the Westerosi society?

I'm kinda hoping it's not just because she has a crush...I want her to have ulterior motives
posted by warm_planet at 7:56 PM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


That said, did people reading the Grey-Worm-learning-to-read as empowerment (for the character) or assimilation (to the dominant Westerosi culture) or a combination of both?

I read Grey Worm learning the "common tongue" mostly as empowerment, as in, learning to think his own thoughts and finding his voice. When Dany was surprised he wanted to keep the name he'd had as a slave, he seemed to be saying that the name represented his own fortitude and accomplishments, rather than his enslavement. I think that making the choice to learn this language is representative of him learning to speak for himself, and that his *choice* and *work* is what's important, because it means he's choosing to have more of "a say" in his life, not whether the actual language is a language of freedom or free people or not.

As for why Missandei is teaching him...I'm very curious about her, too. She's brilliant, and I wonder how she feels about being the handmaiden instead of the queen herself.

the training of Unsullied, includes divorcing them as much as possible from all personal relationships, so that they can be an interchangeable/unstoppable force

Exactly, the Unsullied (and all the slaves) were commodified. It's funny, because the commodifaction of labor actually seems to be going in the opposite direction in Westeros.

In the East, many people are objectified and commodified as slaves, but they're being freed. In the West, many people are practically wild animals, but can be tamed more and more through the use of wages/money/commodification (Tyrion does that by buying a friend/guard, Bronn, and a girlfriend, Shae).

At a minimum, it seems like the Unsullied are capable of forming romantic attachments, much like asexuals in our world. Just because someone can't or doesn't want to fuck doesn't mean that they don't still fall in love.

Actually, I would go in the other direction, in that I think that the Unsullied would definitely be able to fuck or do basically anything they were ordered to do, but I think that they might have to take some time finding their humanity again (which the Masters tried hard to train out of them) and even figuring out what love is (which I doubt any of them have experienced?) before being able to do something like love. Though they're obviously capable of it, I mean, they are human beings.
posted by rue72 at 8:00 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


For what it's worth, though this almost certainly wasn't intended, the first glimpse of the "kill the masters" script looked like it was just a marking on a door, which was the most chilling thing in the episode for me. They really played up the fascist elements in the invasion of Meereen in a way I don't think the books did. Maybe it's just because I'm working on a series about the fascist period, but it all felt very March on Rome to me.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:04 PM on April 29, 2014 [3 favorites]


because it means he's choosing to have more of "a say" in his life, not whether the actual language is a language of freedom or free people or not

Thanks, I like this thought.

The scene seemed to be framed as Grey Worm resisting Missandei's coaching to use Westerosi conversationally, and maybe I was reading into that dynamic of the power of language too much?

But then Grey Worm seem to be expressing his motives for individuation to start the uprising, esp. as the very visible "Kill the Masters" so I like the framing of language as a tool of agency.
posted by warm_planet at 8:13 PM on April 29, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm hoping that the end game answer to "Who will sit on the Iron Throne?" is "Nobody" because the smallfolk revolt, kill all the nobles, and institute a constitutional republic

...this would be So AMAZING on so many levels

But the more I watch this show I feel like the answer will be "Nobody" because everything dissolves into chaos/everyone is annhiliated by White Walkers

and GRRM likes to describe snow blowing across the wilderness
posted by warm_planet at 8:37 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]




The drinking out of a skull thing would've bothered me a lot more

You know, since they opened with a closeup on the skull I was able to see very clearly that it was a prop, a sculpture of a skull, to the point that I wondered if the dialog would explain why they have wooden skull goblets or something. The following soliloquy undermined my suspension of disbelief as a result.

In fact, it undermined it to the point that when the guy mentioned Gin Alley, I wondered in my head, "Huh, do they have distilled spirits in Westeros?"

Rome: no distilled spirits
Early medieval Europe: no distilled spirits
Late medieval europe: just barely

...and there does seems to be a diffusion of distillation from the Near East, so perhaps Dorne offers firewater among its array of voluptuary trade goods.
posted by mwhybark at 10:07 PM on April 29, 2014


Unsullied training, for those who wish to know (spoiler: it's laughably stupid and evil, as Jacqueline suggests above).
posted by turbid dahlia at 10:22 PM on April 29, 2014 [2 favorites]


Actually, I would go in the other direction, in that I think that the Unsullied would definitely be able to fuck or do basically anything they were ordered to do

They lack genitalia, thus the name. Do we know if the strap-on has been invented in this universe?
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:53 PM on April 29, 2014


They still have their tongues and fingers.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:08 AM on April 30, 2014


Well, ok, I guess I was going with a pretty limited definition of the word 'fuck'
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:14 AM on April 30, 2014


They lack genitalia, thus the name. Do we know if the strap-on has been invented in this universe?

I was about to ask you to use your imagination but...actually, then my own imagination led me to realize that the only prosthesis we've seen so far is Jaime's terribly designed hand? Which Tyrion said was steel, right?

I feel like that would be the worst thing possible to wear in the summer -- have you ever tried to go down a metal slide in the summertime, while wearing shorts? Imagine if that slide were your PROSTHETIC HAND. Ouch! Then there's also the rust (they're right on the sea!), and it must be so heavy...it really should be wooden, albeit coated in gilt. Also, I'm unclear on how it stays on, because Bronn could just pull it off in a heartbeat, so it's not threaded, but it also never falls off randomly.

Props to the Westerosi for finding some ingenious way to attach it to Jaime's arm, but that hand's overall poor design makes me think that prostheses aren't a "thing" in Westeros yet. No idea about the East, though.
posted by rue72 at 12:15 AM on April 30, 2014


I guess I was going with a pretty limited definition of the word 'fuck'

Lesbians don't have penises and they can fuck...
posted by Jacqueline at 12:19 AM on April 30, 2014




There was this great scene in episode one this season between Margaery and Brienne, and they talked about the difference between fighting with words and fighting with weaponry, and a woman's lot in Westeros, as it were, but unfortunately a lot of that scene got cut. Maybe it'll end up on the extra features on the DVD.
I hope so. I'd really like to see that.
posted by homunculus at 12:47 AM on April 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


It's actually kind of annoying that they cut a scene like that, which sounds really interesting, while finding time for gratuitous scenes like Oberyn's orgy and Craster rape shack. I know they weren't in the same episodes, but the pattern is discouraging.
posted by homunculus at 1:15 AM on April 30, 2014 [13 favorites]


It's actually kind of annoying that they cut a scene like that, which sounds really interesting, while finding time for gratuitous scenes like Oberyn's orgy and Craster rape shack. I know they weren't in the same episodes, but the pattern is discouraging.

Annoying, maybe. Surprising, though? At this point, four years in? At a certain point I feel like the people who would like a great deal more philosophical discussion with a feminist subtext of the relative position of women in Westeros society and a lot less explicit sex and violence have to understand: This ain't that show. The show has a lot of strong, complex, important and influential female characters. And also Grand Guignol levels of bloodshed and T&A. It's been that way from episode one. If you feel like a bad person for liking the show because of that, you're free to not watch it. But it is what it is.
posted by Diablevert at 5:38 AM on April 30, 2014 [6 favorites]


I love the way that the show is perverting any and all of the things viewers could sorta rely on: that Dany is good and just, that the Night's Watch are good and just. Looking back, it's always been more complicated than that, but now I've not the foggiest idea who to root for and I really, really enjoy that feeling.

The only thing I could rely on: Everything is terrible.
posted by Theta States at 7:03 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Everything is terrible.

What's worse, except getting drunk as hell on your local varieties of booze, they don't seem to have recourse to any other kind of substance abuse. We haven't seen or heard anything that might be their equivalent of opium dens, pot smoking, shroom tripping or any such. The "poppy's milk" seems to be only in the possession of maesters and for all purposes it looks like it just knocks you down into semicoma. Do they even have something like coffee, at least? What a nightmare.
posted by Iosephus at 7:58 AM on April 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


Maybe 'lemoncakes' are really stuffed full of hash.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:01 AM on April 30, 2014 [2 favorites]


Do they even have something like coffee, at least? What a nightmare.

My god, you're right. This is truly a hellish land.
posted by Theta States at 9:21 AM on April 30, 2014 [4 favorites]


Well, they do have this stuff called moon tea, which -- oh. Strike that.

In real life, someone is marketing various teas/tisanes assigned to major houses and characters. I'm not taking the ingredient list for Earl Greyjoy at face value, but as it already includes Earl Grey, how much worse could it get?
posted by maudlin at 9:46 AM on April 30, 2014


Bran: Captured by the mutineers at Craster's Keep, along with Hodor, Meera, and Jojen, his direwolf Summer, and Jon's direwolf Ghost (S04E04)

Rickon: Last seen headed to Greatjon Umber's Hold with Osha and his direwolf Shaggydog (S03E09)



Are there any other Dire Wolves unaccounted for? There was one killed in the first season and one at the Red Wedding, verdad?


Yeah, Bran crossed a line for me when he warged into Hodor. It made practical sense, but it was such a screwed up thing to do. To me, that decision to warg into Hodor was sort of the opposite of how Tyrion decided he wouldn't go through with consummating his and Sansa's marriage. Bran made the practical but coercive/disrespectful choice, and Tyrion made the dangerous but more respectful choice. It's not quite the same, because Bran and his friends (including Hodor) were in immediate physical danger, and I don't think that Bran is "bad" because of it...but it did cross a moral line, I think.

I imagine that line is going to get crossed again and that you'll appreciate it this time around. (have not read the books). I think the torture of Hodor sets up a situation where Bran has to do it again.
posted by GrapeApiary at 9:49 AM on April 30, 2014


Sansa and Robb's direwolves are dead, Rickon, Bran and Jon's direwolves are all with (or near) their owners, presumably Jon will reunite with Ghost if he goes to Crasters' Keep. Arya let her wolf Nymeria go so it wouldn't get killed and we haven't seen it since I don't think.
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:52 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


thank you kindly
posted by GrapeApiary at 9:53 AM on April 30, 2014


Do they even have something like coffee, at least? What a nightmare.

In Season 1, Episode 2, the Lannisters are are breakfast and Tyrion asks for a mug of dark ale with breakfast.

WIN WIN?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:55 AM on April 30, 2014 [4 favorites]


Bran crossed a line for me when he warged into Hodor

Wow, I totally missed that plot point. Is there a good place to get point-by-point recaps?
posted by warm_planet at 10:06 AM on April 30, 2014


Are there any other Dire Wolves unaccounted for? There was one killed in the first season and one at the Red Wedding, verdad?

Known direwolves

Arya's wolf Nymeria is unaccounted for. She was last seen in the Riverlands, where Arya and the Hound are now, so I think there's a chance we might see her again this season.
posted by homunculus at 10:06 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Wow, I totally missed that plot point. Is there a good place to get point-by-point recaps?


It's when Jon and the Wildlings are right outside that little castle where Bran and co are hiding. Hodor is freakin out, everyone's all like "Hodor stop hodoring," Bran possesses him and puts him to sleep, and then Jojen is like "UM WHAT"
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:11 AM on April 30, 2014


Here's the scene.

I don't see how Bran really had any other choice: Hodor was going to give away their hiding place to the Wildlings and get them all killed. I can't fault him for that, but if he starts doing it just for the hell of it, that will be another matter.
posted by homunculus at 10:23 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


What if a direwolf ate Ser Pounce? Would it be like the animal version of the Red Wedding?
posted by Area Man at 10:26 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I don't get "he crossed a moral line". They tried to shush him, asked him to be quiet, but it wasn't working. In light of how cold blooded the Wildings can be, it wouldn't have been healthy to get caught.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:26 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


I think the torture of Hodor sets up a situation where Bran has to do it again

plus that line, "if I were the same size as you, I'd be king of... everything" reads as foreshadowing.
posted by mwhybark at 10:30 AM on April 30, 2014 [4 favorites]


If Bran is able to perfect his control of warging when he wargs into Hodor, maybe he can progress to larger and larger things. Eventually dragons.

Bran-as-Hodor takes the Iron Throne. Calling it now. (a sure way to make sure GRRM kills them off)
posted by GrapeApiary at 10:35 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


Oh yeah, last season.

Thanks showbiz_liz and homunculus! Who needs recaps when you know detail-oriented fans :) ?
posted by warm_planet at 10:36 AM on April 30, 2014


Yeah, I don't get "he crossed a moral line". They tried to shush him, asked him to be quiet, but it wasn't working. In light of how cold blooded the Wildings can be, it wouldn't have been healthy to get caught.

I always found the show handling of that moment odd because in the books, it's made clear that wargs can take over other humans; Sixskins is an example of that. But I seem to recall that it is considered taboo/immoral or unethical somehow; that it is considered one of the worst things a skinchanger can do.

So on the TV show, Bran is told no one can do that; in the books (IIRC), the response is more "you should never do that - that's wrong."
posted by nubs at 10:38 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm not sure we've been introduced to a character named Sixskins yet. Best to leave him out.
posted by GrapeApiary at 10:44 AM on April 30, 2014


We have, but he went by Orell.
posted by KathrynT at 10:48 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


he has appeared on the show but under a different name.
posted by elizardbits at 10:48 AM on April 30, 2014


I stand corrected.
posted by GrapeApiary at 10:50 AM on April 30, 2014


Sorry, I should've edited that to Orell. I've reached a saturation point it seems, where the books and the shows are confused and blended in my head.
posted by nubs at 10:54 AM on April 30, 2014


The first time I watched show Bran warging into Hodor I thought I remembered Meera's response as more astounded that was possible, than upset he did it, which led me to believe they were just cutting the moral aspect out of it for TV and portraying it as something that wasn't done. Rewatching it though she does seem more upset about it though.
posted by DynamiteToast at 11:09 AM on April 30, 2014


Yeah, I don't get "he crossed a moral line". They tried to shush him, asked him to be quiet, but it wasn't working. In light of how cold blooded the Wildings can be, it wouldn't have been healthy to get caught.

He turned a person into a meat puppet, that was the moral line he crossed. Their lives were at stake, I'm not saying he's a black-hat for doing it (sometimes doing the right thing isn't the smart thing), but it's still wrong to take over someone's mind and use them like a puppet. Regardless of what the general GoT social norms are for warging, how could his friends not worry at seeing that? If Bran can do that to Hodor, he can do that to them.
posted by rue72 at 11:37 AM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]




Meera seems like a really decent person. My feelings about her aren't complicated.
posted by Area Man at 12:11 PM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


He turned a person into a meat puppet, that was the moral line he crossed.

The way that I watch that scene, it seemed like he didn't even really mean to do it.

Like Hodor was Hodoring, they were trying to get him to be quiet, and where a desperate able-bodied person might have reached up to put his hand over Hodor's mouth without really thinking about it, desperate Bran reached up to do the mental version of that.

He jumped out of him just as quickly, and seemed surprised that it even happened, and has shown no inklings of wanting to do it again (even though wouldn't it be so much easier to just mind-control Hodor instead of having to ask him to do everything). So, I don't think any moral line has been crossed... yet.

That being said, it seems like they are playing up Bran getting a little too worg-addicted so I could see him making troubling choices in the future, and intentionally taking over another person (except to get that person out of imminent danger) seems like a kind of horrible thing to do.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:40 PM on April 30, 2014 [5 favorites]


worg-addicted

There's your drug, Iosephus
posted by GrapeApiary at 1:25 PM on April 30, 2014 [1 favorite]


I want a new worg

one that won't make me hodor
posted by The Whelk at 1:31 PM on April 30, 2014 [9 favorites]


you are hereby sentenced to eternity in the firey depths of earworm hell
posted by elizardbits at 2:40 PM on April 30, 2014 [4 favorites]


my god is an evil god
posted by The Whelk at 3:00 PM on April 30, 2014




Now I absolutely want the show and books to end with Bran warged inside a dragon sitting on the Iron Throne, and everyone going oh the prophecy was literal.....
posted by viggorlijah at 5:23 PM on April 30, 2014 [5 favorites]


wargs into Hodor

One does not simply warg into Hodor.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:07 PM on April 30, 2014 [15 favorites]


He turned a person into a meat puppet, that was the moral line he crossed.

True, but it's Hodor, who I think has essentially been played as a meat puppet without a rider for a long time already. Have we ever seen Hodor express his own motivations or think about anything? It also makes me wonder if maybe someone was warging him previously.
posted by corb at 4:02 AM on May 1, 2014


> SWEETIE IT'S OK IT'S ALL PRETEND

Suspension of disbelief apparently goes too far sometimes.
posted by Sunburnt at 7:29 AM on May 1, 2014


It's actually kind of annoying that they cut a scene like that, which sounds really interesting, while finding time for gratuitous scenes like Oberyn's orgy and Craster rape shack. I know they weren't in the same episodes, but the pattern is discouraging.

I'm just happy to see male bisexuality on television, and not have it be attached to some sort of sociopathic villain/antihero (at least, not yet?). Oberyn's particular brand of bisexuality is stereotypey and his speech about it is heavy-handed, but I appreciate that it's made so explicit.

But yeah, the rape scenes, total unnecessary garbage.
posted by almostmanda at 10:10 AM on May 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


Good point. I am glad they had him give that speech, so I retract that particular complaint. But I do wish they'd include more scenes like the one between Brienne and Margaery which got cut. Hopefully it will show up online.
posted by homunculus at 10:18 AM on May 1, 2014


I so wish Oberyn had been naked in that scene with Tywin. Not just for the eyecandy, not even just for the representation (although who the hell participates in an orgy with their pants on?!) but because I think the symbolism of Tywin hoping to catch Oberyn in a vulnerable moment would have been nicely inverted if Oberyn had been able to suavely handle that entire pointed conversation while completely nude. It would have been an example of nudity genuinely used for artistic reasons, for character reasons, for plot reasons. . . but no. It makes the gratuitous female nudity seem grosser by comparison.
posted by KathrynT at 10:36 AM on May 1, 2014 [20 favorites]


So I'll be keeping a close eye on the only (?) two democratic organizations in this otherwise autocratic world for hints that this form of governance might start catching on.

Don't forget the army north of the wall. Mance Rayder didn't rally all those people/giants/etc behind him by force, they're sort of in a coalition forces kind of situation where they willingly united to deal with shit.

I feel like that would be the worst thing possible to wear in the summer -- have you ever tried to go down a metal slide in the summertime, while wearing shorts? Imagine if that slide were your PROSTHETIC HAND. Ouch! Then there's also the rust (they're right on the sea!), and it must be so heavy...it really should be wooden, albeit coated in gilt. Also, I'm unclear on how it stays on, because Bronn could just pull it off in a heartbeat, so it's not threaded, but it also never falls off randomly.

When they first put it on, they show that it has a boot-like fabric and leather lace-up piece that goes up to about his elbow, and just clamps onto his arm. For some reason when Bronn ripped it off they didn't really show that. It was a weird inconsistency to me.

The "poppy's milk" seems to be only in the possession of maesters and for all purposes it looks like it just knocks you down into semicoma. Do they even have something like coffee, at least? What a nightmare.

With the full disclosure that i haven't read the books, my friends who have say that phrase comes up hilariously often in the books.

I find it hard to believe in a world this shitty, where drugs exist, that people aren't doing them. Opium tea has existed for an incredibly long time for example...
posted by emptythought at 11:25 AM on May 1, 2014


I think the symbolism of Tywin hoping to catch Oberyn in a vulnerable moment would have been nicely inverted if Oberyn had been able to suavely handle that entire pointed conversation while completely nude.... It would have been an example of nudity genuinely used for artistic reasons, for character reasons, for plot reasons. . . but no. It makes the gratuitous female nudity seem grosser by comparison.

I would argue that Daenerys confronting Daario in the nude does exactly this. And shows some character development at that, because 1st season Dany would absolutely not been able to be as confident when dealing with a dude who showed up to watch her bathe.

That being said, I'm heartened by the rumours that Emilia Clarke is refusing to do any more nudity in the show.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:59 AM on May 1, 2014


I'm ashamed to admit I was late in watching this week's episode because of post-birthday-revelry hangove illness. So everyone else has said what I would have said.

I liked that Brienne's armor is just armor. None of that boobplate crap.

I didn't believe the end of the Margaery/Tommen scene. He just rolls over and heads back to sleep? Yeah, no. Because you know.
posted by Justinian at 3:00 AM on May 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Margaery is one of my favorite characters right now. Besides the fact that competent schemers are always fun to watch, she's more interesting than other manipulators like Littlefinger to me by virtue of the fact that there's a real tension in her personality between her ambitiousness and what seems like an earnest desire to be a good force in the world.
posted by invitapriore at 9:51 AM on May 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I didn't believe the end of the Margaery/Tommen scene. He just rolls over and heads back to sleep? Yeah, no. Because you know.

I need to watch again, but while he lies down I didn't recall his eyes closing. For all it's egregiousness in other areas, I don't think it's going to show a teenage boy jacking off; and at times I think the show is learning that implying is much better than showing.
posted by nubs at 9:54 AM on May 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


I liked that Brienne's armor is just armor. None of that boobplate crap.

What kind of armor did Medieval women really wear?
posted by homunculus at 10:05 AM on May 2, 2014


Beautiful Death: Kill the Masters
posted by homunculus at 10:07 AM on May 2, 2014


Yeah nubs, I wasn't seriously proposing that we be shown that. It was in the nature of a joke.
posted by Justinian at 12:14 PM on May 2, 2014


Sorry, I guess my joke meter is broken today :)
posted by nubs at 12:42 PM on May 2, 2014


I too forgot completely and was wondering why Count Rugen was at the wall.


Oh gosh yes, this is exactly what I was thinking. Doesn't he have to help plan a murder and wedding?

KILL THE MASTERS - Psychic Paint

end of the episode:
"Who's a cute widdle walker? You are! Yes, you are! Yes, you arrrrrrreeeeee!"
posted by tilde at 2:09 PM on May 2, 2014




I guess you gotta find some reason to feel superior when your shows get a fraction of the attention of Game of Thrones.
posted by Justinian at 6:10 PM on May 2, 2014


I find it hard to believe in a world this shitty, where drugs exist, that people aren't doing them. Opium tea has existed for an incredibly long time for example...

It's always seemed to me that 'milk of the poppy' pretty much is opium. And probably under the jealous control of the maesters, at least in Westeros. In an era that their magic had become unreliable, chemistry could be a close second in maintaining their position.

Much like in real medieval history, we see that the common people drown their sorrows in drink.
posted by snuffleupagus at 6:07 AM on May 3, 2014


Can someone explain something: when Bran, Hodor, Jojen and Meera are captured at Craster's Keep, Jojen is quite sick and has a seizure. It's been said before that he does that after he's been warging, right? So was he warging then or shortly before that? I don't recall that he was. Or does he also have the seizure more regularly; it seems like maybe he is more and more?
posted by marylynn at 4:30 PM on May 3, 2014


I don't think Jojen is a warg; he has visions and can see the future, but I don't believe he's ever done the skinchanger routine.

At any rate, he was certainly not well.
posted by nubs at 4:41 PM on May 3, 2014


Well, Unusullied have tongues and fingers, so they can please a lady in other ways. I just don't know how much they can enjoy on their own/be pleasured beyond, y'know, cuddles.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:33 PM on May 3, 2014


They still have their prostates.
posted by Sys Rq at 12:16 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


They were castrated as children so they would likely find that idea singularly unappealing.
posted by Justinian at 1:10 PM on May 4, 2014






"Fuck beside the King" is in poor taste and that's from someone who can almost recite entire episodes of Archer.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:23 PM on May 4, 2014


I've started to hit refresh every 30 seconds on the fanfare site.
posted by Justinian at 9:37 PM on May 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


Previous threads have been posted from as early as 9:52 PM to late as 10:58 PM on the West Coast, so you may need to switch fingers from time to time.
posted by homunculus at 10:06 PM on May 4, 2014


Crows are a Flat Circle
posted by homunculus at 10:21 PM on May 4, 2014


Can't... feel... hands...
posted by Justinian at 10:29 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


I asked the mods what was up and mathowie said that he's still watching but that anyone can submit a post for the new episode.

But I don't know what to write -- he's so good at the episode summaries that I'm drawing a blank when I try to think of something. :(
posted by Jacqueline at 10:40 PM on May 4, 2014


I submitted one. It's crap, but it's a thing.
posted by KathrynT at 10:48 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Is there a queue or something? No see nada.
posted by Justinian at 10:49 PM on May 4, 2014


Can't... feel... hands...

You're taking the Jamie cosplay a little too seriously.
posted by homunculus at 10:50 PM on May 4, 2014


YAY IT THERE
posted by elizardbits at 10:50 PM on May 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Says right on the submit page that they're being queue'd

i was about to submit one, but oh well
posted by emptythought at 10:50 PM on May 4, 2014


you take the next one emptythought, I was in a rush and didn't do a very good job.
posted by KathrynT at 11:33 PM on May 4, 2014


Epic post ahead, sorry, but I've only just gotten around to watching this.

Also also: if Natalie Dormer tried to seduce me that way, I would prob betray my mom too.

I'm gay and that would work on me. Tommen's in for a wild ride with her.

So, about Brienne and Jaime: during the scene where he gave her the sword and the armor, I think he realized that she was smitten with him. And during the scene where he watched her ride away, I think that he realized that he in turn was smitten with her. Did anyone else take it that way?

Yes. I think each is recognizing in the other that they are so unique, so different, that they can never truly find happiness in Westerosi society. That can be an incredibly strong bond. I would, however, be disappointed if they mesh romantically; that's the trope we're expecting. Best friends, on the other hand, would be fascinating to watch.

I think Barristan Selmy is concerned. He's seen Targaryens go mad before.

"Every time a Targaryen is born, the gods flip a coin and the world holds its breath."

I think it might be a little less simplistic than that. (Though bear in mind we're only seeing her actions, not her thoughts.)


And interesting to see Margery apparently didn't know that her family were involved in Joffrey's death.

She had to be kept completely innocent for plausible deniability. If she'd known anything at all about the plot, someone would have found a way to get it out of her. She needed to be pure as the driven snow while all that was going on.

I'm a little disappointed that they spelled it all out so precisely though. Trust your viewers to pay attention to your story.

If it is a spoiler for book readers then that's pretty hilarious.

The White Walkers and such? Yeah, it's a spoiler for book readers unless it shows up in book 6 or 7. It might well be one of those divergent book/tv things.

Sansa has grown up very fucking fast. And she's finally showing her intellect; she's not just a princesses and knights kinda gal. This is going to be a verrrrrrrrrrrrry interesting thing to follow.

Eh, I think semi-crucifying the masters was a wee bit crazy.

A bit, maybe, but she very much believes in eye-for-an-eye 'justice,' so to her the reaction is completely rational. In a sense, it is. You killed 163 slaves just to taunt me? Well 163 of you are getting nailed to trees. Big mistake. Big. Huge. Enjoy dying slowly.

It's been interesting to see Margaery turn into a subtle player of the game. As said above, that forehead kiss means all he'll be thinking about is what it'll be like to kiss her for real. A very clever touch, there. And while yeah he's 12, this is Westeros, and he's the king, and sexual innocence isn't really a Thing for Westerosi once puberty hits (unless they're female and noble in which case they must remain 'pure'.)

To make things fractionally less creepy, the actor who plays Tommen now is seventeen years old. (Same age as the actor who plays Arya!)

That makes me feel a lot less gross. In other news, I have a wedding planned for next year. He doesn't know yet.

He's a man without a clear identity any more; he doesn't know who he is, where he fits, and is without a map. It doesn't make the fact that he raped his sister for "old time's" sake any less forgivable, but this is why Jaime remains interesting to me.

Yeah, Jaime's lost at this point. He's the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard who can't actually fight. He's legally prohibited from inheriting Casterly Rock. His sister doesn't seem to want any of that business anymore. Everything that has defined him as a man has been stripped away from him. So how does he rebuild?

I'm guessing that Olenna was once betrothed to Aemon.

What was that about the decrepit banging up against the nonexistent? One wonders how different the history of Westeros would have been had she not--let's not mince words here--stolen her sister's intended through pussy power. Hypothetically, she marries Aemon. Thus he can't go to the Citadel. Thus he doesn't end up on the Wall. Thus he ends up sitting the Iron Throne.. hmm.

Jaime didn't know that Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey, though. If anything, he seemed reluctant to believe that Tyrion hadn't, since he asked asked both Bronn and Tyrion and had to be persuaded. His unwillingness to kill Tyrion seemed to me to be because Tyrion is his brother, regardless of what might have happened with Joffrey.

Jaime, for all his faults, is an extremely perceptive judge of people. "Are you seriously asking if I would kill my brother?" was him saying "I don't believe you killed Joffrey."

Also, have to say in the middle of this: The repeated rapes at Crasters were grotesque and unnecessary in the extreme. Simply showing the bruises would have told the story more eloquently and far less gratuitously.

Sad Hodor made me sad and leaky in my face.

Seems like if Littlefinger would kill his conspirators, then the last thing he would do was tell a young naive girl the while story. And Olenna is just way to cool to need credit.

I believe Littlefinger is grooming Sansa--recognizing another (potential) major player in The Game--in the same way Margaery is grooming Tommen. I think one of them is going to be more successful, with a lot more blowback, than the other.

In the chess game between Littlefinger and Varys, Varys is playing for the realm while Littlefinger is playing for Littlefinger.Varys has a thousand people loyal to him because nobody else even considers them as players. Littlefinger forces people's hands and everybody hates him, more or less. Also, Varys has goals and plans and contingencies. Littlefinger wants "everything" and thinks that chaos is a ladder.

This is insightful, both for book and TV. Varys has larger ambitions. Littlefinger just wants "everything."

Olenna Tyrell seems like she is in the same league as Varys and Lord Baelish.

They wish they were in her league. She's miles ahead of them.

I know they keep trying to sell the "Littlefinger loves Catelyn/the Tullys" but I just can't buy it.

Don't forget the mentions of how much Sansa looks like Catelyn did at that age, the age when Littlefinger would have been obsessed with her.

Is it just me, or does it look like the guy playing Jorah has aged considerably in a year and/or is seriously physically ill? Watching this episode, I was like "Get to a fucking doctor, man." And yeah, Bran is aging too rapidly for the series--but so is Arya. At least they finally killed that caterpillar.

Actually, I would go in the other direction, in that I think that the Unsullied would definitely be able to fuck

Um, they are not. One needs certain parts for what we generally term fucking, and they are lacking those.

Are there any other Dire Wolves unaccounted for?

Nymeria, Arya's wolf, who she drove off after the encounter with Joffrey and Micah.

I didn't believe the end of the Margaery/Tommen scene. He just rolls over and heads back to sleep? Yeah, no. Because you know

I think HBO would consider it beyond the pale to show a nominally 12 year old masturbating furiously, no matter how old the actor is. Or at least I hope they would. There's artistic honesty and then there's gratuitousness (which basically, for HBO, means boobs and/or rape. More dongs please.)


Also I find some really amazing contrasts between conversations in this episode and the next but that's for a different thread.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 6:59 PM on May 7, 2014 [2 favorites]


what happened?
posted by homunculus at 11:17 PM on May 12, 2014


rue72: Bran crossed a line for me when he warged into Hodor. It made practical sense, but it was such a screwed up thing to do.

As noted on the Skinchanger page on A Wiki of Ice and Fire (notes from the books): according to Haggon, a free-folk skinchanger, mentor to Varamyr Sixskins,
  • Dogs are easy to bond with, because they are so much like humans and trusting; it becomes easier with time to enter one.
  • Wolves are harder; one has to forge a lasting bond, much like a marriage. A man might befriend a wolf, even break a wolf, but no man could truly tame a wolf.
  • Birds are very tempting, but a warg may soon lose contact to the mundane things of earth, and want only to fly.
  • Cats are cruel and vain beasts and can’t be easily controlled, only forced.
  • Elk and deer are prey; wear their skins too long, and even the bravest man becomes a coward.
An unwritten code of ethics for wildling skinchangers, as told by Haggon, forbids them:
  • To eat of human meat.
  • To mate as wolf with wolf.
  • To seize the body of another man (this is the worst abomination).
In the books, Jojen freaks out when Bran quiets Hodor down through warging, mirroring Haggon's sentiment on taking over another person, but in the series, Jojen seemed in awe of Bran's skill, even encouraging Bran to continue to use Hodor when necessary (or was I mis-reading those scenes?).

Sys Rq: IIRC, the standard newborn "makeup" used on ER was cream cheese and strawberry jam.

As if babies weren't delicious enough as it is. Chubby little cheeks covered in cream cheese and jam? Omnomnomnom.
posted by filthy light thief at 9:02 AM on April 10, 2015 [2 favorites]


even encouraging Bran to continue to use Hodor when necessary

(Strictly speaking that happens again next episode I think? But yes, I read Jojen's looks and nods as "yes yes go on warg into Hodor".)

Anyway, we're rewatching this series the moment, and this is the episode that fully spells out the poisoning plot. And I'm left with the question: WHY DO IT IN SUCH A CONVOLUTED WAY?

Littlefinger and Olenna conspired to do it together (Littlefinger calls the Tyrells "my new friends") so clearly they've been in communication to plot it out. So why doesn't Olenna simply bring the poison with her to the feast, rather than relying on the whole fragile "Dontos gives the necklace to Sansa, Sansa wears the necklace to the feast" plot? The whole thing would've failed had Sansa woken up that morning and decided "nah, it doesn't go with my dress."

I mean, it's not like they're going to search Olenna on the way in, right?

It's also very convenient to the plot that Joffrey abuses Tyrion so much at the feast and does the whole "you be my cupbearer" thing: it neatly sets him up as the fall guy, literally the one left holding the chalice when Joffrey dies. Not part of the plan, surely? Although Dontos spiriting Sansa away is part of the plan and even without Joffrey's taunting, that would have neatly thrown suspicion onto Tyrion.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:31 AM on April 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


I believe the intention all along was for it to appear either as if Joffrey just choked to death (the historical inspiration for the Purple Wedding is the death of Eustace IV) or as if Sansa did it since she disappears after the feast - and having the poison smuggled in on her person works because (a) she is about the last person anyone would suspect and (b) it implicates her, leaving her no choice but to be with Littlefinger.

Been a long time since I watched these episodes, but I believe the necklace was a deliberate gift from the Tyrell's to Sansa for the wedding day (at least, that is what I recall of how it is presented in the books), which is a nice way of tying up Sansa in the social convention of needing to then wear it to the wedding.
posted by nubs at 9:58 AM on April 10, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah - framing Sansa (and by extension Tyrion) seemed like a backup plan in case it didn't get passed off as a random thing.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:10 AM on April 10, 2015


nubs: I believe the necklace was a deliberate gift from the Tyrell's to Sansa for the wedding day (at least, that is what I recall of how it is presented in the books)

Nope, Ser Dantos gave her a silver hair net, which he insists she wear. From A Wiki of Ice and Fire:
Dontos then gives her a hair net that resembles a silver spiderweb with amethysts in it. He tells her to wear it, for "It’s magic, you see. It’s justice you hold. It’s vengeance for your father. It’s home."
The rest of that linked article doesn't (currently) spoil anything from future episodes, as it is only a summary of Chapter 65 from A Clash of Kings, when Sansa gets the hair net. Here's a bit more context, in the form of a page (or so) of that chapter, leading up to that quoted line, portraying more of the fairy tale relationship that Sansa and drunken Ser Dantos have in the books.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:45 PM on April 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I was trying to stick to the necklace here as this thread is from before the Show Only/Books Included divide and was just trying to elide over the differences; the core of it is that the gift is given to Sansa with the insistence that it be worn to the wedding.
posted by nubs at 2:55 PM on April 10, 2015


Sorry about crossing the streams. For future MeFites looking at these threads, the FanFare labels were added in early June, over a month after this post first went live, so there were no show only/books included split until Episode 9 of Season 4.
posted by filthy light thief at 10:03 PM on April 10, 2015


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