The Good Place: Tinker, Tailor, Demon, Spy
October 17, 2019 7:15 PM - Season 4, Episode 4 - Subscribe
Uncertainty abounds when an unexpected visitor arrives.
Jason recognized Janet's gender identity!
posted by acidnova at 7:30 PM on October 17, 2019 [58 favorites]
posted by acidnova at 7:30 PM on October 17, 2019 [58 favorites]
The lighting on this episode was bright and harsh. I mean, when you could put your own makeup on in the reflection of your co-star's forehead ...
There was a little more gross-out humor in this episode too. (The freak animal, exploding demons, Derek's sex toys.) But overall, I did think it was the funniest one of the season.
posted by NorthernLite at 7:35 PM on October 17, 2019
There was a little more gross-out humor in this episode too. (The freak animal, exploding demons, Derek's sex toys.) But overall, I did think it was the funniest one of the season.
posted by NorthernLite at 7:35 PM on October 17, 2019
I like this Jason, and it’s a perfectly reasonable evolution of the character.
I’m less certain that it’s Vicky in the suit, but they’ll definitely switch her out for Michael soon.
posted by Etrigan at 7:40 PM on October 17, 2019 [5 favorites]
I’m less certain that it’s Vicky in the suit, but they’ll definitely switch her out for Michael soon.
posted by Etrigan at 7:40 PM on October 17, 2019 [5 favorites]
The thing about Vicky is, she knows how to act...she was convincing as Real Eleanor. So I buy that it could be her.
But I did not see Jason figuring out Bad Janet which I should have!
Also...what IS Glenn's deal I wonder?
posted by emjaybee at 8:42 PM on October 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
But I did not see Jason figuring out Bad Janet which I should have!
Also...what IS Glenn's deal I wonder?
posted by emjaybee at 8:42 PM on October 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
The demon horse picture come to life is Niednagel's best work all season.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:16 PM on October 17, 2019 [30 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:16 PM on October 17, 2019 [30 favorites]
The minute the show went to commercial after that hug, I kept saying, "Wait! Where's the "Not a girl!" from Janet?" Out loud. In my empty apartment. This is one of the few shows that gets my full attention.
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 9:29 PM on October 17, 2019 [41 favorites]
posted by The Wrong Kind of Cheese at 9:29 PM on October 17, 2019 [41 favorites]
I probably only caught it because of people calling that there were imposters, but I totally called the didn’t say “not a girl” thing
posted by flaterik at 10:28 PM on October 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by flaterik at 10:28 PM on October 17, 2019 [4 favorites]
The grin Michael has in response to something near the end totally looked like the grin he gave at the end of season 1 when they figured it out.
That makes me think he’s Vicki!Michael.
posted by flaterik at 11:10 PM on October 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
That makes me think he’s Vicki!Michael.
posted by flaterik at 11:10 PM on October 17, 2019 [2 favorites]
I'm very appreciative that they dressed Manny Jacinto in the suit again for the final scene.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 1:01 AM on October 18, 2019 [31 favorites]
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 1:01 AM on October 18, 2019 [31 favorites]
I thought this was a great episode.
The fire squid is a Chekhov's Gun I desperately want to see go off at some point.
At the end, they are literally going to hell in a handcart!
posted by kyrademon at 4:38 AM on October 18, 2019 [34 favorites]
The fire squid is a Chekhov's Gun I desperately want to see go off at some point.
At the end, they are literally going to hell in a handcart!
posted by kyrademon at 4:38 AM on October 18, 2019 [34 favorites]
The bucket of Glenn on the cart as Michael and Jason leave was a nice touch. It also tells me that Glenn will be back.
posted by Thorzdad at 4:43 AM on October 18, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 4:43 AM on October 18, 2019 [5 favorites]
The Wrong Kind of Cheese me too! I'm so happy it was bad Janet who broke up with Jason.
posted by ellieBOA at 5:08 AM on October 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 5:08 AM on October 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
I've been kinda meh on this season so far, but I loved this and I'm really, really looking forward to the next one, a lot.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:51 AM on October 18, 2019
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:51 AM on October 18, 2019
Also, we finally have a reasonable explanation for Mark Zuckerburg and Jack Dorsey.
Soon they will pupate into their final demon form.
posted by Mogur at 5:58 AM on October 18, 2019 [31 favorites]
Soon they will pupate into their final demon form.
posted by Mogur at 5:58 AM on October 18, 2019 [31 favorites]
I'm wondering: if Janet is marbled in the Bad Place, and Bad Janet is now revealed, who's maintaining the Neighborhood and its created residents?
posted by bassooner at 6:58 AM on October 18, 2019 [16 favorites]
posted by bassooner at 6:58 AM on October 18, 2019 [16 favorites]
Maybe it runs on autopilot for a bit? I AM glad that they didn't use that as the reason to rescue her - it's clear that they're doing it because it's the right thing to do.
posted by Mogur at 7:00 AM on October 18, 2019
posted by Mogur at 7:00 AM on October 18, 2019
One order of IHOP Eggs, please! Not too hot, if you don't mind.
I'm not thrilled with fakeJanet, but it's over and done with and wound up sending Jason and Michael out to rescue her, so fine. But if it's fakeMichael, I'll be pissed. That would mean one of the most touching Michael/Eleanor moments we've ever seen (his pep talk from episode 2) is actually a Vicki/Eleanor moment and that would SUCK.
Also, I realized why I'm liking things less this season. I miss Chidi, and I REALLY miss having all of Team Cockroach working together. I hope the whole experiment ends soon.
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:11 AM on October 18, 2019 [12 favorites]
I'm not thrilled with fakeJanet, but it's over and done with and wound up sending Jason and Michael out to rescue her, so fine. But if it's fakeMichael, I'll be pissed. That would mean one of the most touching Michael/Eleanor moments we've ever seen (his pep talk from episode 2) is actually a Vicki/Eleanor moment and that would SUCK.
Also, I realized why I'm liking things less this season. I miss Chidi, and I REALLY miss having all of Team Cockroach working together. I hope the whole experiment ends soon.
posted by Frayed Knot at 7:11 AM on October 18, 2019 [12 favorites]
I’m just so proud of Jason.
I also miss the gang being together, but for now I’m taking the win.
posted by rewil at 8:31 AM on October 18, 2019 [5 favorites]
I also miss the gang being together, but for now I’m taking the win.
posted by rewil at 8:31 AM on October 18, 2019 [5 favorites]
Also, I realized why I'm liking things less this season. I miss Chidi, and I REALLY miss having all of Team Cockroach working together. I hope the whole experiment ends soon.
YES THIS THANK YOU
posted by palomar at 9:13 AM on October 18, 2019 [6 favorites]
YES THIS THANK YOU
posted by palomar at 9:13 AM on October 18, 2019 [6 favorites]
Well, I said last week that if they go back to this well, I imagine they'll do it in a way that subverts expectations and I can honestly say I didn't expect Glenn to explode.
And Jason/Jake dressed Bad Place Retro is always welcome.
I have to admit, sort of on the topic of how the Fake Good Place will function with only a magnetized Bad Janet, I've always been a little unclear on exactly how a Janet functions as both the mainframe of a neighborhood and its Siri/Alexa-ish assistant. Especially in terms of how the original, non-rebooted Good Janet functioned in season one's neighborhood. It seems that Michael and other demons have some powers they don't need Janets for (exploding Jason's motorcycle? Whatever happens when he snaps his fingers to reboot?) Original Good Janet couldn't lie, and even after 800 reboots had trouble pretending to be Bad Janet at first, so what was going on when she said "that train belongs to Shawn, the judge" or "we have a Category 55 Emergency Doomsday Crisis" or when she was kind of mean to Chidi in the metalworking shop?
I don't really know if I even want the show to clear any of this up, but I do have the feeling there's at least one more shoe to drop when it comes to Janet.
posted by lampoil at 9:15 AM on October 18, 2019
And Jason/Jake dressed Bad Place Retro is always welcome.
I have to admit, sort of on the topic of how the Fake Good Place will function with only a magnetized Bad Janet, I've always been a little unclear on exactly how a Janet functions as both the mainframe of a neighborhood and its Siri/Alexa-ish assistant. Especially in terms of how the original, non-rebooted Good Janet functioned in season one's neighborhood. It seems that Michael and other demons have some powers they don't need Janets for (exploding Jason's motorcycle? Whatever happens when he snaps his fingers to reboot?) Original Good Janet couldn't lie, and even after 800 reboots had trouble pretending to be Bad Janet at first, so what was going on when she said "that train belongs to Shawn, the judge" or "we have a Category 55 Emergency Doomsday Crisis" or when she was kind of mean to Chidi in the metalworking shop?
I don't really know if I even want the show to clear any of this up, but I do have the feeling there's at least one more shoe to drop when it comes to Janet.
posted by lampoil at 9:15 AM on October 18, 2019
I'm just gonna say -- since they actually got the actress who plays Vicky back, I doubt they're going to waste that on having her off-screen. I'm not saying that just because I have a crush on Vicky, although I do have a crush on Vicky, and since I can't be alone...
(I mean, look, they brought back Workout Chris Evans Demon, this is only fair)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:16 AM on October 18, 2019 [9 favorites]
(I mean, look, they brought back Workout Chris Evans Demon, this is only fair)
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:16 AM on October 18, 2019 [9 favorites]
I'm wondering: if Janet is marbled in the Bad Place, and Bad Janet is now revealed, who's maintaining the Neighborhood and its created residents?
Was it ever actually Good Janet who said she was barely able to maintain the Neighborhood and all the Janet-babies?
posted by Etrigan at 9:39 AM on October 18, 2019 [8 favorites]
Was it ever actually Good Janet who said she was barely able to maintain the Neighborhood and all the Janet-babies?
posted by Etrigan at 9:39 AM on October 18, 2019 [8 favorites]
Maybe Derek is somehow maintaining the neighborhood? Or maybe it's the Janet-babies themselves?
posted by overglow at 10:18 AM on October 18, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by overglow at 10:18 AM on October 18, 2019 [5 favorites]
> I'm wondering: if Janet is marbled in the Bad Place, and Bad Janet is now revealed, who's maintaining the Neighborhood and its created residents?
spent a lot of time talking about that with my partner last night. any other show i’d think of it as a plot hole, but with this one i’m pretty sure it’s a sign that there’s something fucky going on.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 10:31 AM on October 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
spent a lot of time talking about that with my partner last night. any other show i’d think of it as a plot hole, but with this one i’m pretty sure it’s a sign that there’s something fucky going on.
posted by Reclusive Novelist Thomas Pynchon at 10:31 AM on October 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
I'm just gonna say -- since they actually got the actress who plays Vicky back, I doubt they're going to waste that on having her off-screen.
Well, it's lucky then that Michael and Jason are going to the Bad Place where Vicky can show up, because I don't think it's Vicky in a Michael suit.
posted by Pendragon at 10:49 AM on October 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
Well, it's lucky then that Michael and Jason are going to the Bad Place where Vicky can show up, because I don't think it's Vicky in a Michael suit.
posted by Pendragon at 10:49 AM on October 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
If next week is about the neighborhood's status being maintained by Derek, it will be the one time I don't get irritated by Jason Mantzoukas. That would be hilarious.
NGL, I'm bummed about impostors too. It feels very been there, done that. But it sounds like the writers love writing that kind of thing, and the actors love acting it, so I guess I'm not surprised they went that route.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 11:13 AM on October 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
NGL, I'm bummed about impostors too. It feels very been there, done that. But it sounds like the writers love writing that kind of thing, and the actors love acting it, so I guess I'm not surprised they went that route.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 11:13 AM on October 18, 2019 [3 favorites]
Yeah, it might be Bad Janet lying that she can't maintain in order to pass off her "mistakes." I can't recall if pre-swap Janet said she was having a hard time with that or not.
This might be my favorite episode because the end was just so sweet. I was surprised Eleanor didn't mention earlier that Michael's sacrifice proved it was him, but I guess that was for the Janet reveal. From the AV Club review:
"the real magic of the moment is in how it allows Jason to rely on the one thing he truly knows to cut through the tangle of the myriad things he definitely does not. Jason loves Janet, and Jason knows Janet. He’s been left bereft and confused by Janet’s abandonment of him (which he now excitedly blames on “her weird sister”), but, whether by clever trap or by accident (even money there), he observed one little detail about the woman (not a woman) he loves and everything made sense. "
Awwwwwwwwwwww.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:45 AM on October 18, 2019 [9 favorites]
This might be my favorite episode because the end was just so sweet. I was surprised Eleanor didn't mention earlier that Michael's sacrifice proved it was him, but I guess that was for the Janet reveal. From the AV Club review:
"the real magic of the moment is in how it allows Jason to rely on the one thing he truly knows to cut through the tangle of the myriad things he definitely does not. Jason loves Janet, and Jason knows Janet. He’s been left bereft and confused by Janet’s abandonment of him (which he now excitedly blames on “her weird sister”), but, whether by clever trap or by accident (even money there), he observed one little detail about the woman (not a woman) he loves and everything made sense. "
Awwwwwwwwwwww.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:45 AM on October 18, 2019 [9 favorites]
He’s been left bereft and confused by Janet’s abandonment of him (which he now excitedly blames on “her weird sister”), but, whether by clever trap or by accident (even money there), he observed one little detail about the woman (not a woman) he loves and everything made sense.
Go back and take in the look on Jason's face when she doesn't correct him and they hug. That look is a forking aces moment of acting and directing.
posted by Etrigan at 12:06 PM on October 18, 2019 [18 favorites]
Go back and take in the look on Jason's face when she doesn't correct him and they hug. That look is a forking aces moment of acting and directing.
posted by Etrigan at 12:06 PM on October 18, 2019 [18 favorites]
If next week is about the neighborhood's status being maintained by Derek, it will be the one time I don't get irritated by Jason Mantzoukas. That would be hilarious.
Hard to imagine that Derek wouldn't know that Janet got replaced by Bad Janet, let alone not say anything about it.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:52 PM on October 18, 2019 [4 favorites]
Hard to imagine that Derek wouldn't know that Janet got replaced by Bad Janet, let alone not say anything about it.
posted by ZeusHumms at 12:52 PM on October 18, 2019 [4 favorites]
This was a funny episode on its own, but having a Janet swap seems like the laziest impostor situation they've had so far. Rebooting was supposed to be something special to our Janet, not a throwaway line to retcon Bad Janets not being able to impersonate Good Janets. Even if Michael isn't Vicki now, he's being sent off to the bad place with Jason who wouldn't notice a Michael swap if he's focused on saving Janet.
I miss the part of the show where they would try to tackle ethical dilemmas. I don't want to see that replaced with second-guessing who is who in every scene like it's a Mission Impossible movie.
posted by Gary at 12:56 PM on October 18, 2019 [8 favorites]
I miss the part of the show where they would try to tackle ethical dilemmas. I don't want to see that replaced with second-guessing who is who in every scene like it's a Mission Impossible movie.
posted by Gary at 12:56 PM on October 18, 2019 [8 favorites]
Hard to imagine that Derek wouldn't know that Janet got replaced by Bad Janet, let alone not say anything about it.
Do we know that Derek knows there are other Janets?
posted by Etrigan at 1:01 PM on October 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
Do we know that Derek knows there are other Janets?
posted by Etrigan at 1:01 PM on October 18, 2019 [2 favorites]
Hard to imagine that Derek wouldn't know that Janet got replaced by Bad Janet, let alone not say anything about it.
I haven't rewatched, but I got the impression that Derek — who is now wearing all white, presumably as a result of his many reboots — was showing them the handcuffs that somehow (?) revealed the truth about Janet on purpose.
posted by purpleclover at 1:13 PM on October 18, 2019 [4 favorites]
I haven't rewatched, but I got the impression that Derek — who is now wearing all white, presumably as a result of his many reboots — was showing them the handcuffs that somehow (?) revealed the truth about Janet on purpose.
posted by purpleclover at 1:13 PM on October 18, 2019 [4 favorites]
I think it's fair to say that Derek, in all his myriad of permutations, moves in mysterious ways.
posted by Grangousier at 2:28 PM on October 18, 2019 [23 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 2:28 PM on October 18, 2019 [23 favorites]
bassooner: I'm wondering: if Janet is marbled in the Bad Place, and Bad Janet is now revealed, who's maintaining the Neighborhood and its created residents?
etrigan: Was it ever actually Good Janet who said she was barely able to maintain the Neighborhood and all the Janet-babies?
Doesn't matter what she said -- back in S2 when Janet started to glitch because Jason was with Tahani, we were shown that the integrity of the neighborhood depends on Janet maintaining it. So if our Janet is a marble in Hell, they better explain why the Neighborhood didn't go poof.
posted by tzikeh at 3:57 PM on October 18, 2019 [4 favorites]
etrigan: Was it ever actually Good Janet who said she was barely able to maintain the Neighborhood and all the Janet-babies?
Doesn't matter what she said -- back in S2 when Janet started to glitch because Jason was with Tahani, we were shown that the integrity of the neighborhood depends on Janet maintaining it. So if our Janet is a marble in Hell, they better explain why the Neighborhood didn't go poof.
posted by tzikeh at 3:57 PM on October 18, 2019 [4 favorites]
Also that's not Vicki. When Eleanor said to Michael that she "figured out" that he conned her with a fake freak-out, I thought it was super-clear from Michael's response that he was letting her believe that since it would make her happy and he wouldn't have to worry that she'd think less of him - not that Vicky was thinking on her feet and agreed because she didn't know what Eleanor was talking about. (Seriously go back and watch Ted Danson still best actor on tv)
posted by tzikeh at 4:01 PM on October 18, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by tzikeh at 4:01 PM on October 18, 2019 [6 favorites]
Rebooting was supposed to be something special to our Janet, not a throwaway line to retcon Bad Janets not being able to impersonate Good Janets.
Well, once everyone finds out about the trick, of course they're gonna try it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:29 PM on October 18, 2019 [4 favorites]
Well, once everyone finds out about the trick, of course they're gonna try it.
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:29 PM on October 18, 2019 [4 favorites]
I don't recall this being discussed before (so apologies if it has) but since Derek was Janet's first "baby" and he got his own plunger - does that mean all the people created for this neighborhood have plungers somewhere? Is there a field of plungers? Could one then, theoretically, start rebooting all those people until they became something akin to real humans? Is this how we reboot the universe from scratch and start a new earth? Have I gone off the rails?
posted by acidnova at 5:22 PM on October 18, 2019 [21 favorites]
posted by acidnova at 5:22 PM on October 18, 2019 [21 favorites]
When Janet begged Michael to kill her in after her malfunctions from lying (kill me kill me kill me!), he asked about the integrity of the neighbourhood. Janet told him he just needed to get another Janet from the warehouse once she was dead. So I guess Bad Janet took over running the mainframe or whatever, even if it was Good Janet (and a bit of Derek) who originally created it.
posted by mephisjo at 5:42 PM on October 18, 2019 [6 favorites]
posted by mephisjo at 5:42 PM on October 18, 2019 [6 favorites]
First of all, I really enjoyed this episode. It had more big laughs than any so far this season and all the focus on whether Michael was an imposter succeeded in making me forget all about the possible bad Janet situation. Jason saving the day was just delightful and unexpected, but totally supported by history and the logic of the world and characters.
However, one thing thing that really bugged me was that nobody even tried to verify Michael's identity by asking him something only the real Michael would know. It seems like there's tons of experiences that Michael and Elenor have shared that Vicky couldn't possibly be aware of. Is there some obvious reason such a test wouldn't have worked? I understand it undermines the dramatic tension, but sometimes I think the show relies a bit too much on characters saying "this is the only way" and requiring the audience to take a leapof into faith and accept it as so.
posted by Cogito at 9:05 PM on October 18, 2019 [10 favorites]
However, one thing thing that really bugged me was that nobody even tried to verify Michael's identity by asking him something only the real Michael would know. It seems like there's tons of experiences that Michael and Elenor have shared that Vicky couldn't possibly be aware of. Is there some obvious reason such a test wouldn't have worked? I understand it undermines the dramatic tension, but sometimes I think the show relies a bit too much on characters saying "this is the only way" and requiring the audience to take a leap
posted by Cogito at 9:05 PM on October 18, 2019 [10 favorites]
THOUGHTS!
I think that's still Vicki!Michael. Vicki was able to pull similar tricks to Michael's seeming self-sacrifice tonight, Bad Janet clearly made the "lie detector" such that it would blow up Glenn before he could get any further with his meddling, and I can't think of a good reason to do that if Glenn was bringing mistaken intel to Team Cockroach.
Basically:
If Michael is Our!Michael and Team Cockroach can't trust him anymore, that's all upside as far as Bad Janet is concerned. If Michael is Vicki, and Team Cockroach knows it, even if they're unsure that's a problem that Bad Janet needs to solve. And while Glenn gave us his suspicion that the Michaels were switched while Janet was distracted on the train, and Bad Janet gave us her version of marbelling Janet while Michael was distracted on the train, neither are trustworthy accounts and both of them being switched makes much more sense.
Jason's word search was awesome.
And yeah, I picked up on the "not a girl" thing in the moment and was psyched that Jason did as well.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:20 PM on October 18, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think that's still Vicki!Michael. Vicki was able to pull similar tricks to Michael's seeming self-sacrifice tonight, Bad Janet clearly made the "lie detector" such that it would blow up Glenn before he could get any further with his meddling, and I can't think of a good reason to do that if Glenn was bringing mistaken intel to Team Cockroach.
Basically:
If Michael is Our!Michael and Team Cockroach can't trust him anymore, that's all upside as far as Bad Janet is concerned. If Michael is Vicki, and Team Cockroach knows it, even if they're unsure that's a problem that Bad Janet needs to solve. And while Glenn gave us his suspicion that the Michaels were switched while Janet was distracted on the train, and Bad Janet gave us her version of marbelling Janet while Michael was distracted on the train, neither are trustworthy accounts and both of them being switched makes much more sense.
Jason's word search was awesome.
And yeah, I picked up on the "not a girl" thing in the moment and was psyched that Jason did as well.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:20 PM on October 18, 2019 [5 favorites]
Something is just so off in this season - after whipping through tightly written plot for three seasons, this one is glacial by comparison and the writers have put drastically little effort into developing the humans they’re supposed to save. That one guys line about Mariah Carey’s butterfly tattoo being his masters thesis — so much to mine there! I’m sticking with it but man so far it’s been so hollow...
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:24 PM on October 18, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 11:24 PM on October 18, 2019 [10 favorites]
The tub of Glenn did have "1 GLENN" in Afterlife Wingdings.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:52 PM on October 18, 2019 [14 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 11:52 PM on October 18, 2019 [14 favorites]
If you look back you'll see that my predictive capacities are lamentable, but I wonder if it's not only still Vicki in there, but that after a while spent being Michael she'd rather join Team Cockroach.
posted by Grangousier at 3:43 AM on October 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:43 AM on October 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
Something is just so off in this season - after whipping through tightly written plot for three seasons, this one is glacial by comparison and the writers have put drastically little effort into developing the humans they’re supposed to save. That one guys line about Mariah Carey’s butterfly tattoo being his masters thesis — so much to mine there! I’m sticking with it but man so far it’s been so hollow...
I disagree that he plot pacing is slower this season; we're only on episode three -- since the opening hour-long was split into two, and it showed. And as of this episode, we have already gotten another demon probably turning on the System, Michael and Jason heading into the Bad Place, a turnaround for John the gossip columnist, a strategy for handling Brett, a Jason-Derek-Janet love triangle seemingly resolved by basically everyone deciding to act like a grownup, Jason maturing noticeably when he comes to value something beyond his own impulses, and a runner about Eleanor and Michael each cracking under the strain and showing the limits of even relatively reformed/good people/demons. And that's without mentioning the impostor plots.
Instead, I think there are two issues here: First, the new plot direction essentially doubles the cast, which leaves a lot less time for developing any of the characters or establishing clear dynamics as we have with TeamCockroach. The writers' solution so far is to make the show about Team Cockroach and their travails, and especially bout Eleanor and (to a lesser extent) Jason and their love lives.
Second, this season seems less interested in actual moral philosophy. We got a little bit about simulationism and solipsism a couple of episodes back, but otherwise there's not much discussion of these ideas. Part of that is related to problem one: mindwiping Chidi and lumping him in with the new humans puts him mostly out of focus, and he's generally been the show's vehicle for introducing those ideas. In the past, the effort to insert ruminations on moral philosophy forced the show to do things outside the "sitcom plotting" box; this season, though, it feels like the writers mostly want to pay off character arcs in more conventional ways, and the distinct elements are relatively muted.
The show isn't slowing down, but its signature plot turns do feel less substantial because the stakes are purely plot-related stakes, not thematic stakes.
posted by kewb at 5:22 AM on October 19, 2019 [19 favorites]
I disagree that he plot pacing is slower this season; we're only on episode three -- since the opening hour-long was split into two, and it showed. And as of this episode, we have already gotten another demon probably turning on the System, Michael and Jason heading into the Bad Place, a turnaround for John the gossip columnist, a strategy for handling Brett, a Jason-Derek-Janet love triangle seemingly resolved by basically everyone deciding to act like a grownup, Jason maturing noticeably when he comes to value something beyond his own impulses, and a runner about Eleanor and Michael each cracking under the strain and showing the limits of even relatively reformed/good people/demons. And that's without mentioning the impostor plots.
Instead, I think there are two issues here: First, the new plot direction essentially doubles the cast, which leaves a lot less time for developing any of the characters or establishing clear dynamics as we have with TeamCockroach. The writers' solution so far is to make the show about Team Cockroach and their travails, and especially bout Eleanor and (to a lesser extent) Jason and their love lives.
Second, this season seems less interested in actual moral philosophy. We got a little bit about simulationism and solipsism a couple of episodes back, but otherwise there's not much discussion of these ideas. Part of that is related to problem one: mindwiping Chidi and lumping him in with the new humans puts him mostly out of focus, and he's generally been the show's vehicle for introducing those ideas. In the past, the effort to insert ruminations on moral philosophy forced the show to do things outside the "sitcom plotting" box; this season, though, it feels like the writers mostly want to pay off character arcs in more conventional ways, and the distinct elements are relatively muted.
The show isn't slowing down, but its signature plot turns do feel less substantial because the stakes are purely plot-related stakes, not thematic stakes.
posted by kewb at 5:22 AM on October 19, 2019 [19 favorites]
A couple of commenters over on the AV Club point out that William Jackson Harper would have been working on Lost Holiday and Midsommar for part of the production schedule, which might explain his diminished involvement this season.
posted by JDHarper at 7:06 AM on October 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by JDHarper at 7:06 AM on October 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
Midsommar wrapped the summer before last. I'm not that familiar with the other movie, so IMDbd it. Looks like it was made in 2018 too.
posted by NorthernLite at 10:10 AM on October 19, 2019
posted by NorthernLite at 10:10 AM on October 19, 2019
I like Chidi very much but am not at all keen on the Chidi/Eleanor relationship, so this season is a bit mixed for me (though I like that Jason clued in -- I need to check if there are any callbacks to the time he figured it out in Dance, Dance Resolution -- but then Jason is my absolute favourite character on this show). I'm not a fan of Derek, but I do appreciate that he was just here for sex jokes and that worked for me.
As for is Michael fake -- this seems pretty silly, there are lots of things Michael knows from this reboot that the Bad Place wouldn't know and it's strange that no one is doing that as a solution. (For instance, Michael sacrificing himself and referring to the trolley problem in Rhonda, Diana, Jake, and Trent.)
I liked this episode a lot -- it's by far the best one this season -- but I'm not totally sure about the shape of everything so far.
posted by jeather at 10:43 AM on October 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
As for is Michael fake -- this seems pretty silly, there are lots of things Michael knows from this reboot that the Bad Place wouldn't know and it's strange that no one is doing that as a solution. (For instance, Michael sacrificing himself and referring to the trolley problem in Rhonda, Diana, Jake, and Trent.)
I liked this episode a lot -- it's by far the best one this season -- but I'm not totally sure about the shape of everything so far.
posted by jeather at 10:43 AM on October 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
I do have a crush on Vicky, and since I can't be alone
You are not alone, my friend. I don't know why, but both Vicky and Bad Janet appeal to me in ways they very probably shouldn't.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 10:58 AM on October 19, 2019 [7 favorites]
You are not alone, my friend. I don't know why, but both Vicky and Bad Janet appeal to me in ways they very probably shouldn't.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 10:58 AM on October 19, 2019 [7 favorites]
I don't know why, but both Vicky and Bad Janet appeal to me in ways they very probably shouldn't.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 10:58 AM on October 19
Eponysterical.
posted by ejs at 1:09 PM on October 19, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 10:58 AM on October 19
Eponysterical.
posted by ejs at 1:09 PM on October 19, 2019 [10 favorites]
Me and my partner started watching a month or two ago, and caught up just before this season started. The deceleration is real, and I'm glad to know it isn't just us. This was a good episode gagwise: the terrible horse thing, the wordsearch, the chimes, the nachos being finished between shots. I'd even say the impostor misdirection worked, as I was too focused on how Michael could prove genuineness to think about Janet.
Watching an episode a week as it comes out really changes the show, though. I almost want to wait and binge to keep the pace up.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 3:45 PM on October 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
Watching an episode a week as it comes out really changes the show, though. I almost want to wait and binge to keep the pace up.
posted by Wrinkled Stumpskin at 3:45 PM on October 19, 2019 [2 favorites]
Lucky for Jason and Michael that Bad Janet built them a DEMON EXPLODER five minutes before they decided that they needed to invade the Bad Place.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 4:21 PM on October 19, 2019 [21 favorites]
posted by Parasite Unseen at 4:21 PM on October 19, 2019 [21 favorites]
The lighting on this episode was bright and harsh.
This show is really, really inconsistent about its ability or willingness to properly light dark skin. The worst example was the peep chili episode, because that was a Chidi tour de force and the motherfuckers did not light him. It is a thing I do not appreciate about this show that I mostly love very much.
the deceleration is real
Right? I think it’s because the nature of their group goal is just...less exciting. Running an experiment to try to reform 4 people we don’t get to see much of and aren’t invested in is a snoozer. I thought that’s what they were going to blow up in their usual fourth episode explosion, but...nope. So we’re missing Chidi, who is an essentially part of the group dynamic, and their goal is kinda boring.
That’s tough to write. Hopefully they shake it up a bit more soon.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:57 PM on October 19, 2019 [7 favorites]
This show is really, really inconsistent about its ability or willingness to properly light dark skin. The worst example was the peep chili episode, because that was a Chidi tour de force and the motherfuckers did not light him. It is a thing I do not appreciate about this show that I mostly love very much.
the deceleration is real
Right? I think it’s because the nature of their group goal is just...less exciting. Running an experiment to try to reform 4 people we don’t get to see much of and aren’t invested in is a snoozer. I thought that’s what they were going to blow up in their usual fourth episode explosion, but...nope. So we’re missing Chidi, who is an essentially part of the group dynamic, and their goal is kinda boring.
That’s tough to write. Hopefully they shake it up a bit more soon.
posted by schadenfrau at 5:57 PM on October 19, 2019 [7 favorites]
However, one thing thing that really bugged me was that nobody even tried to verify Michael's identity by asking him something only the real Michael would know. It seems like there's tons of experiences that Michael and Elenor have shared that Vicky couldn't possibly be aware of.
This REALLY bothered me too. Like, anything Eleanor and Michael talked about on Earth - the library, the diner, the road trip, etc. So much Vicky couldn't possibly know.
posted by tzikeh at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2019 [1 favorite]
This REALLY bothered me too. Like, anything Eleanor and Michael talked about on Earth - the library, the diner, the road trip, etc. So much Vicky couldn't possibly know.
posted by tzikeh at 7:36 PM on October 19, 2019 [1 favorite]
Like, Eleanor asking Michael "What did you do to me in a diner in Arizona?"
Whether it's really Michael or Vicky/Michael, imagine the character's response (and the other characters' responses)!
posted by tzikeh at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2019
Whether it's really Michael or Vicky/Michael, imagine the character's response (and the other characters' responses)!
posted by tzikeh at 7:38 PM on October 19, 2019
I disagree that he plot pacing is slower this season; we're only on episode three -- since the opening hour-long was split into two, and it showed.
I hope you're right. At this point last season, 4 chapters in, the group was in Australia and the show was in a similar position. The show was still very funny but seemed aimless. The next episode is when Jeremy Bearimy happened and things really got going.
posted by Gary at 10:36 PM on October 19, 2019 [5 favorites]
I hope you're right. At this point last season, 4 chapters in, the group was in Australia and the show was in a similar position. The show was still very funny but seemed aimless. The next episode is when Jeremy Bearimy happened and things really got going.
posted by Gary at 10:36 PM on October 19, 2019 [5 favorites]
I think it's possible to find something only Michael and Eleanor would know, but harder than you'd think. Everything that happened on Earth the Bad Place would have access to through Eleanor's file. Before that, Eleanor only has spotty memories, most of which are from while Michael was still bad (lying to the Bad Place about the number of reboots but still sending reports back and surrounded by fellow demons). Maybe something that happened in the Good Place Mail Depot or the IHOP.
posted by lampoil at 7:03 AM on October 20, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by lampoil at 7:03 AM on October 20, 2019 [2 favorites]
Rebooting was supposed to be something special to our Janet, not a throwaway line to retcon Bad Janets not being able to impersonate Good Janets.
Rebooting has been a thing, with our Janet, Derick, and now Bad Janet. I don't think it's just 'not-a-robots' who can be affected that way though. The group is starting to notice it with Chidi too. I think the humans have been rebooted a bunch and that's why they're growing.
posted by Garm at 2:50 PM on October 20, 2019 [5 favorites]
Rebooting has been a thing, with our Janet, Derick, and now Bad Janet. I don't think it's just 'not-a-robots' who can be affected that way though. The group is starting to notice it with Chidi too. I think the humans have been rebooted a bunch and that's why they're growing.
posted by Garm at 2:50 PM on October 20, 2019 [5 favorites]
Yay, Jason! The word search made me laugh out loud; in that half-second before the reveal, I expected to see the letters for "BOOBS" circled or something, but the actual gag was even better. (And then he did actually save the day by searching for a word and not finding it!!)
posted by mixedmetaphors at 3:36 PM on October 20, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by mixedmetaphors at 3:36 PM on October 20, 2019 [12 favorites]
I keep trying to figure out how this is going to end, because I don’t think they can get away without Saying Something. Like they’ve stated their answer to the main thematic question of how to be a good person a bunch of times — you gotta try, dude — but how are they gonna resolve it? Do they succeed in overhauling the moral universe? Probably according to David Hume’s bundle theory of the self? Does the good place resist? Does it turn out that people are not happy in the current good place?
That’s a lot for 9 more episodes?
I have to imagine at some point when writing this season they all collectively went “oh, fork me.”
posted by schadenfrau at 5:01 PM on October 20, 2019 [1 favorite]
That’s a lot for 9 more episodes?
I have to imagine at some point when writing this season they all collectively went “oh, fork me.”
posted by schadenfrau at 5:01 PM on October 20, 2019 [1 favorite]
I don't want to remind anyone of politics but I just have to say, any time I hear someone refer to Donald Trump as "president" in my head I hear Janet making one of her corrections: "Not a legitimate president". It helps, one little tiny bit.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:32 PM on October 20, 2019 [10 favorites]
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:32 PM on October 20, 2019 [10 favorites]
I want to thank whoever here pointed out that Janet falling in love with the stupidest member of the team is very reasonable, because the gap between her brainpower and Jason's versus her brainpower and any other member of the team is very similar. Basically his intellect is not a stumbling block for her because it's pretty much equivalent to Tahani or Eleanor or Chidi when you're at Janet's level.
The Jason figuring it out moment here was probably my favorite twist of the whole show.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:38 PM on October 20, 2019 [19 favorites]
The Jason figuring it out moment here was probably my favorite twist of the whole show.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:38 PM on October 20, 2019 [19 favorites]
Rebooting has been a thing, with our Janet, Derick, and now Bad Janet. I don't think it's just 'not-a-robots' who can be affected that way though. The group is starting to notice it with Chidi too. I think the humans have been rebooted a bunch and that's why they're growing.
Ooooooh, deep. I like this. This would explain a lot. Someone reboot me 200+ times, stat!
The Jason figuring it out moment here was probably my favorite twist of the whole show.
Mine too, obviously. But heck, even Jason figured out they were in the Bad Place once.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:38 AM on October 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
Ooooooh, deep. I like this. This would explain a lot. Someone reboot me 200+ times, stat!
The Jason figuring it out moment here was probably my favorite twist of the whole show.
Mine too, obviously. But heck, even Jason figured out they were in the Bad Place once.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:38 AM on October 21, 2019 [2 favorites]
64 comments and no one mentioned Eleanor's amazing barrette ponytail? I was staring at it all episode; it made me jealous of people with thin hair.
(the switching plot was a little meh, but at least they have a reason to go back to hell now)
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:54 PM on October 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
(the switching plot was a little meh, but at least they have a reason to go back to hell now)
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:54 PM on October 22, 2019 [2 favorites]
Rebooting has been a thing, with our Janet, Derick, and now Bad Janet. I don't think it's just 'not-a-robots' who can be affected that way though. The group is starting to notice it with Chidi too. I think the humans have been rebooted a bunch and that's why they're growing.
I hope it’s not that, because that devalues the growth that comes from experience. FauxGoodJanet was rebooted “like 40 million times”, which means she couldn’t have learned anything from them, while the humans are getting better because they’re learning and growing from new experiences and situations.
posted by Etrigan at 4:32 AM on October 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
I hope it’s not that, because that devalues the growth that comes from experience. FauxGoodJanet was rebooted “like 40 million times”, which means she couldn’t have learned anything from them, while the humans are getting better because they’re learning and growing from new experiences and situations.
posted by Etrigan at 4:32 AM on October 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
no one mentioned Eleanor's amazing barrette ponytail? I was staring at it all episode
I was busy trying to figure out if her buttondown-under-a-sweater look is supposed to be an indication of her increasing maturity or if it's just an outfit choice they're making for the season.
posted by Emmy Rae at 5:16 AM on October 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
I was busy trying to figure out if her buttondown-under-a-sweater look is supposed to be an indication of her increasing maturity or if it's just an outfit choice they're making for the season.
posted by Emmy Rae at 5:16 AM on October 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
I think that's her "professional" look, since she's posing as Architect. (Though...now that I think of it, she's been doing more to design the simulation than Michael. She really is acting as Architect.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 7:52 AM on October 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 7:52 AM on October 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
How many offers to record those mandatory ethics training videos a lot of companies have do you think William Jackson Harper (who, I agree, I really missed this episode) has had to turn down since this show started?
posted by tobascodagama at 8:22 AM on October 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
posted by tobascodagama at 8:22 AM on October 23, 2019 [3 favorites]
I want to understand if there's a deeper meaning behind the reason Eleanor is almost always wearing stripes.
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:08 AM on October 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 9:08 AM on October 23, 2019 [2 favorites]
From an interview with wardrobe head Kirston Mann after season 3, "Eleanor's penchant for wearing stripes — like the colorful Kule sweater, above — have generated frenzied speculation. Is it the number of bad things that Eleanor has done? Or some depiction of the non-linear, afterlife time loops à la Jeremy Bearimy? Mann will only divulge that she and Bell are partial to stripes, but otherwise, keep those theories going, benches."
posted by grandiloquiet at 12:14 PM on October 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by grandiloquiet at 12:14 PM on October 23, 2019 [1 favorite]
Our Luggage: A Non-Binary Ode to The Good Place’s Janet [Autostraddle]
posted by ellieBOA at 10:24 AM on October 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 10:24 AM on October 24, 2019 [5 favorites]
Incidentally, and coincidentally, found the origin of the T-shirt style featured at the top of the show. It's designed by a Dutch design studio, Experimental Jetset, which blogged about "'Helvetica-list' t-shirts" in 2005.
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:37 PM on October 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 1:37 PM on October 24, 2019 [2 favorites]
It's weird that those shirts don't feel retro or nostalgic in the way that a Frankie Say Relax shirt would in 1997.
posted by jason_steakums at 1:56 PM on October 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 1:56 PM on October 24, 2019 [1 favorite]
The helvetica list shirts, they were a big thing in the mid-2000s but they just aren't really evocative of a time, they're just like adrift cultural detritus.
posted by jason_steakums at 2:25 PM on October 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 2:25 PM on October 24, 2019 [4 favorites]
Had to post that my kid and I were just in the airport with Demon Chris from The Bad Place. We were very near him through security and all the way to our gate area, and we decided we'd talk to him if he got on our same flight. Alas, he did not. I can confirm, however, that the dude is seriously jacked. He was wearing a short-sleeved shirt and his arms are rippling with muscles. Clearly he *has* been going to the gym. A lot.
posted by BlahLaLa at 4:22 PM on October 24, 2019 [12 favorites]
posted by BlahLaLa at 4:22 PM on October 24, 2019 [12 favorites]
Not only did Jason figure out Bad Janet's deception, but he was also right that they should've trusted both Michael and Glenn.
posted by ckape at 8:22 PM on October 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
posted by ckape at 8:22 PM on October 24, 2019 [8 favorites]
One of my (very, very many) favorite backstage anecdotes was from the podcast about this episode, where someone talked about how they asked someone in their art department to come up with the sex toys by basically giving her next to no direction. I can't remember exactly so I'm paraphrasing, but it was something like "we need things that ostensibly are sex toys, but they have to look really weird, and there are no limits." And the person doing the work just hesitated a second, then said, "....'kay, I got this." And then just basically went crazy with a hot glue gun.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:08 PM on July 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:08 PM on July 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
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posted by wabbittwax at 7:21 PM on October 17, 2019 [5 favorites]