The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power: Partings
September 25, 2022 6:24 AM - Season 1, Episode 5 - Subscribe
Nori questions her instincts; Elrond struggles to stay true to his oath; Halbrand weighs his destiny; The Southlanders brace for attack.
I had to grab this frame of Galadriel joyfully taking the boys to school. Look at that face, she loves it! And she's a good sport, she gave Valandil a promotion.
We all agree that The Stranger is Gandalf right?
posted by adept256 at 7:56 AM on September 25, 2022
We all agree that The Stranger is Gandalf right?
posted by adept256 at 7:56 AM on September 25, 2022
Yeah. He's Gandalf and he's here to help.
I thought that the whole oath thing was dumb. Stop having dramatic conversations and making ultimatums, and just talk to Durin. No oath needs to be broken when the guy is right there! And then they got there eventually, which is nice. People in stories so rarely take my advice.
Are we meant to believe that Halbrand surrendered to Sauron at some point (and therefore killed one of his own?)
posted by Acari at 8:18 AM on September 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
I thought that the whole oath thing was dumb. Stop having dramatic conversations and making ultimatums, and just talk to Durin. No oath needs to be broken when the guy is right there! And then they got there eventually, which is nice. People in stories so rarely take my advice.
Are we meant to believe that Halbrand surrendered to Sauron at some point (and therefore killed one of his own?)
posted by Acari at 8:18 AM on September 25, 2022 [5 favorites]
We all agree that The Stranger is Gandalf right?
We're supposed to think that, sure. But I keep going back to the image of his "crash site" and its striking resemblance to the Lidless Eye.
posted by SPrintF at 8:20 AM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
We're supposed to think that, sure. But I keep going back to the image of his "crash site" and its striking resemblance to the Lidless Eye.
posted by SPrintF at 8:20 AM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I thought that the whole oath thing was dumb. Stop having dramatic conversations and making ultimatums, and just talk to Durin. No oath needs to be broken when the guy is right there! And then they got there eventually, which is nice. People in stories so rarely take my advice.
Yes, I was glad that they finally got to that point. I was so sure they wouldn't, and one of my least favorite storytelling devices is when two characters could easily resolve something by just talking to each other and then they...don't. It's such a cheap device. I'll second that the relationship between Elrond and Durin (and also Disa) is a real highlight of the show for me. Elrond is clearly a savvy political player in some ways, but it's also clear that he truly values the friendship he has with Durin.
The Harfoot scenes I'm always tempted to just fast forward. It's not just the fact that not much happens, but I just find them so cutesy and folksy in a way that is cloying and grates very quickly. I don't know if that's just me. The hobbits were definitely the least interesting part of LotR for me (especially in the movies, and the Sam/Frodo, master/servant thing was super uncomfortable), but the Harfoots are way worse than that. It's just this whole "Oh look at these pure of heart small little hobbits living their perfect, simple life, aren't they precious" and it's just...not interesting to me.
Also the Harfoots feel kind of shoehorned in to the rest of the story. Like, the storylines for Elrond/Durin, Galadriel/Halbrand, and Arondir/Bronwyn all have a much clearer connection. We may not have the whole picture yet, but at this point, you can see how those threads will connect to each other eventually, and also at least glimpses of how they connect to the larger story.
And I'm assuming the Stranger is not Gandalf just because that seems too obvious. But they need to start revealing more about who he is soon to make this more interesting.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:29 AM on September 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yes, I was glad that they finally got to that point. I was so sure they wouldn't, and one of my least favorite storytelling devices is when two characters could easily resolve something by just talking to each other and then they...don't. It's such a cheap device. I'll second that the relationship between Elrond and Durin (and also Disa) is a real highlight of the show for me. Elrond is clearly a savvy political player in some ways, but it's also clear that he truly values the friendship he has with Durin.
The Harfoot scenes I'm always tempted to just fast forward. It's not just the fact that not much happens, but I just find them so cutesy and folksy in a way that is cloying and grates very quickly. I don't know if that's just me. The hobbits were definitely the least interesting part of LotR for me (especially in the movies, and the Sam/Frodo, master/servant thing was super uncomfortable), but the Harfoots are way worse than that. It's just this whole "Oh look at these pure of heart small little hobbits living their perfect, simple life, aren't they precious" and it's just...not interesting to me.
Also the Harfoots feel kind of shoehorned in to the rest of the story. Like, the storylines for Elrond/Durin, Galadriel/Halbrand, and Arondir/Bronwyn all have a much clearer connection. We may not have the whole picture yet, but at this point, you can see how those threads will connect to each other eventually, and also at least glimpses of how they connect to the larger story.
And I'm assuming the Stranger is not Gandalf just because that seems too obvious. But they need to start revealing more about who he is soon to make this more interesting.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:29 AM on September 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was really bothered by the thing with the oath. Oaths are important in Tolkien: witness the endless tragedy inspired by the Oath of Feanor, and the lengths that his sons were driven to by the Oath.
So you put Elrond in a position where he feels obliged to take a big important oath (even though I don't know why he felt he had to know what Durin was hiding); and he takes the oath on his father's name, which is enormously important to both him and the world as a whole.
So what happens? in that conversation with Gil-Galad, he basically breaks the oath by confirming to Gil-Galad that he had made a promise not to tell anyone about the ore that the Dwarves were mining! The conversation itself was enough to break the oath!
And then in practically the next scene he hands the chunk of mithril to Celebrimbor, which also breaks the oath!
And not only does nothing happen, but the friend whom he betrayed is all, "Yeah, okay, no biggie."
If you as a filmmaker are making a big deal out of a promise, complete with ritual swearing, and someone breaks the promise, there should be consequences. Especially in Tolkien.
This episode just bothered me in a lot of ways: the weird shit with the mithril being necessary to save the elves of Middle-Earth was just... so clearly invented for dramatic purposes, much like the way Arwen was "dying" in Jackson's RoTK. It makes no sense and instead of the characters being at odds and under pressure because of natural forces of history and ambition (like the Numenoreans wanting to build an empire in M-E, which in fact they do), the writers are throwing weird shit into the mix to force things forward.
It's like adding too much yeast to the bread-machine: the dough over-rises and then collapses.
posted by suelac at 8:29 AM on September 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
So you put Elrond in a position where he feels obliged to take a big important oath (even though I don't know why he felt he had to know what Durin was hiding); and he takes the oath on his father's name, which is enormously important to both him and the world as a whole.
So what happens? in that conversation with Gil-Galad, he basically breaks the oath by confirming to Gil-Galad that he had made a promise not to tell anyone about the ore that the Dwarves were mining! The conversation itself was enough to break the oath!
And then in practically the next scene he hands the chunk of mithril to Celebrimbor, which also breaks the oath!
And not only does nothing happen, but the friend whom he betrayed is all, "Yeah, okay, no biggie."
If you as a filmmaker are making a big deal out of a promise, complete with ritual swearing, and someone breaks the promise, there should be consequences. Especially in Tolkien.
This episode just bothered me in a lot of ways: the weird shit with the mithril being necessary to save the elves of Middle-Earth was just... so clearly invented for dramatic purposes, much like the way Arwen was "dying" in Jackson's RoTK. It makes no sense and instead of the characters being at odds and under pressure because of natural forces of history and ambition (like the Numenoreans wanting to build an empire in M-E, which in fact they do), the writers are throwing weird shit into the mix to force things forward.
It's like adding too much yeast to the bread-machine: the dough over-rises and then collapses.
posted by suelac at 8:29 AM on September 25, 2022 [22 favorites]
I have dragged my wife lengthwise through this show, over her protests, and I honestly can't blame her for being mad about it at this point. There are individual bright spots, and things like costuming and set design are glorious (although wherever Elrond's conversation with Gil-Galad was supposed to be, it was... a soundstage. Really a soundstage) but it's very clear to me that while the writers have a list of beats they want to hit and an idea of the shape they're aiming for, they have no idea how to take those things and create a story. I find the proto-hobbits reasonably charming but there's not a narrative there - it's just a series of events. No one has goals other than "don't die" and Gandalf (I'm assuming he's Gandalf because I don't credit these guys with any subtlety, plus it's an "explanation" for Gandalf's historical association with the hobbits) being barely verbal and not having any clear goal either just makes those sections draaaag.
I can sort of see where they're going with the Numenor plotline, too, although I think it'd be much easier to make it interesting and dramatic if they'd centered the narrative around Elendil and his family, because they have goals! They are doing things! They are close enough to the political center to see what's going on there (and I actually like where I think they're going with the royal house drama) but far enough that they have human desires and interactions. Wedging Galadriel in there just... makes no sense. We already recognize Isildur's name! Just go with him! And bargain-basement Aragorn over there needs to be in a different story, because he's not doing anything in this one.
I enjoy Elrond and Durin in isolation, and it would be a really interesting arc to follow the fall of Moria, but the showrunners just can't help themselves and need to pour invented drama all over it. Where are the goddamn Rings of Power? That's what I expected that plotline to be, and while I don't mind the diversion, I just can't help worrying that the whole thing is going to turn out immensely stupid.
And it'd gonna be stupid because this show doesn't understand elves. It fundamentally doesn't get the racial tensions, the perspective of immortal beings, why humans would fear and resent them, or really anything about Valinor at all, as far as I can tell. I like the actress playing Galadriel and I always have time for a warrior woman but my god, there's zero nuance here. Gil-Galad has... no understandable motivations that aren't manufactured plot stupidity, Celebrimbor is not meaningfully here at all despite being literally the creator of some of the Rings of Power, and... you know what, I like Arondir fine. He's got motivations. That could be, in the hands of better writers, a really good and poignant plotline. As it is, it's merely less annoying than most of the others.
There's just no movement here. They've got the scope entirely wrong, and it's not working as a story. Sure is pretty, though.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:15 AM on September 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
I can sort of see where they're going with the Numenor plotline, too, although I think it'd be much easier to make it interesting and dramatic if they'd centered the narrative around Elendil and his family, because they have goals! They are doing things! They are close enough to the political center to see what's going on there (and I actually like where I think they're going with the royal house drama) but far enough that they have human desires and interactions. Wedging Galadriel in there just... makes no sense. We already recognize Isildur's name! Just go with him! And bargain-basement Aragorn over there needs to be in a different story, because he's not doing anything in this one.
I enjoy Elrond and Durin in isolation, and it would be a really interesting arc to follow the fall of Moria, but the showrunners just can't help themselves and need to pour invented drama all over it. Where are the goddamn Rings of Power? That's what I expected that plotline to be, and while I don't mind the diversion, I just can't help worrying that the whole thing is going to turn out immensely stupid.
And it'd gonna be stupid because this show doesn't understand elves. It fundamentally doesn't get the racial tensions, the perspective of immortal beings, why humans would fear and resent them, or really anything about Valinor at all, as far as I can tell. I like the actress playing Galadriel and I always have time for a warrior woman but my god, there's zero nuance here. Gil-Galad has... no understandable motivations that aren't manufactured plot stupidity, Celebrimbor is not meaningfully here at all despite being literally the creator of some of the Rings of Power, and... you know what, I like Arondir fine. He's got motivations. That could be, in the hands of better writers, a really good and poignant plotline. As it is, it's merely less annoying than most of the others.
There's just no movement here. They've got the scope entirely wrong, and it's not working as a story. Sure is pretty, though.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:15 AM on September 25, 2022 [16 favorites]
This is the first episode I didn't love. I can accept a bridge episode, but it didn't feel like anything moved forward. And the mithril stuff was beyond frustrating -- I thought they were setting up the reason for the 3rd Age enmity between elves and dwarves, but I guess they just wanted to show that Elrond is a really swell guy? The table thing was funny, but it's like it was thrown in to make the elves not seem as bad for sniffing around the dwarves' find. Like, my guys, you had how many thousands of years to find this mithril if you thought it was so important?
On the other hand, if they are intentionally making the leaders (Halbrand, Gil-Galad, Miriel, Durin's dad) suck here, that's kind of interesting. It's not very Tolkien, but I'd be excited to see a story in Middle Earth where people are having to manoeuvre around lacking leadership.
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:30 AM on September 25, 2022
On the other hand, if they are intentionally making the leaders (Halbrand, Gil-Galad, Miriel, Durin's dad) suck here, that's kind of interesting. It's not very Tolkien, but I'd be excited to see a story in Middle Earth where people are having to manoeuvre around lacking leadership.
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:30 AM on September 25, 2022
My understanding is that canonically, Gandalf does not arrive to Middle Earth until thousands of years after the time that Rings of Power is depicting. So I think the stranger is a wizard, but not Gandalf. I don't think the show is attempting to re-write major canon points.
posted by gnutron at 10:07 AM on September 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by gnutron at 10:07 AM on September 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I don't think the show is attempting to re-write major canon points.
...We aren't watching the same show, then. They're playing incredibly fast and loose with the timeline (which they sort of have to - as someone else pointed out in these threads, you'd have the humans dying of old age between every episode, otherwise.)
posted by restless_nomad at 10:34 AM on September 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
...We aren't watching the same show, then. They're playing incredibly fast and loose with the timeline (which they sort of have to - as someone else pointed out in these threads, you'd have the humans dying of old age between every episode, otherwise.)
posted by restless_nomad at 10:34 AM on September 25, 2022 [8 favorites]
Seconding everyone's love of the Elrond and Durin dynamic. It feels genuine, and I love the banter between the two.
Also agree about the Mithril sub-plot feeling crammed in. Not going to nit-pick about it not being canon, because it's jumping with both feet out the canon window, but as people have mentioned above, it feels like magic, unearned drama sauce that is supposed to propel motivations.
Someone, I think on reddit, made the comment that this is simultaneously the slowest and fastest show that they've seen. The time-jumps for back-story blow your hair back but then we're in mystery-box mode for several episodes waiting with waning interest to find out if so-and-so is evil or not.
My money is still on Hal-ron (Sau-Brand? Haul-Bron? I'm here all week!), but the way that the little ominous notes that they give the Stranger (the Slim-Shady wizard and friends tracking him, the cold fire of his landing site, the fireflies dying, the scary way he heals himself) gives me pause.
Also, when Halbrand plopped his Sigil Satchel onto the crate, it sounded like a bag of tiny circular metal things.
posted by ishmael at 10:42 AM on September 25, 2022
Also agree about the Mithril sub-plot feeling crammed in. Not going to nit-pick about it not being canon, because it's jumping with both feet out the canon window, but as people have mentioned above, it feels like magic, unearned drama sauce that is supposed to propel motivations.
Someone, I think on reddit, made the comment that this is simultaneously the slowest and fastest show that they've seen. The time-jumps for back-story blow your hair back but then we're in mystery-box mode for several episodes waiting with waning interest to find out if so-and-so is evil or not.
My money is still on Hal-ron (Sau-Brand? Haul-Bron? I'm here all week!), but the way that the little ominous notes that they give the Stranger (the Slim-Shady wizard and friends tracking him, the cold fire of his landing site, the fireflies dying, the scary way he heals himself) gives me pause.
Also, when Halbrand plopped his Sigil Satchel onto the crate, it sounded like a bag of tiny circular metal things.
posted by ishmael at 10:42 AM on September 25, 2022
There are many things that aren't right in this show, but they don't bother me. I am really enjoying it, and have no problem just saying "eh, whatever" to the various plot holes, weird motivations, obviously made-up stuff to paper over story that's just not in the LOTR appendices, etc. I'd follow Galadriel anywhere, Arondir's great, and the dwarves are just too perfect to put down.
I do notice, however, how much the each episode's intro reminds me of Foundation, and how much long shots of Numinor's city looks like any one of a dozen Marvel or Star Wars cities.
The whole thing is pretty, and maybe that's as good a reason to keep watching as any.
posted by lhauser at 10:43 AM on September 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I do notice, however, how much the each episode's intro reminds me of Foundation, and how much long shots of Numinor's city looks like any one of a dozen Marvel or Star Wars cities.
The whole thing is pretty, and maybe that's as good a reason to keep watching as any.
posted by lhauser at 10:43 AM on September 25, 2022 [1 favorite]
I really like some things about the show, but there just keep being these massive plot holes, mostly involving the entire Southlands plot.
Like, the elves were there to keep an eye on things, right? Make sure Sauron doesn't come back/the people there don't swear loyalty again? And somehow things get bad enough that Halbrand runs away and the orcs can destroy all these villages and Numenor can be very easily convinced "shits bad, gotta invade" and literally no one has noticed anything going on this whole time? Are the elves supposed to bad at their one job? (This included Galadriel who's apparently been searching all over for signs of Sauron for centuries!) Is the village we're focused on like, some obscure backwater? Did all of the other elf scouts get killed/ captured too, and no one noticed? It's unclear. See, for a parallel, Rohan in The Two Towers. Things are bad, a subset of people know things are bad and getting worse, and the king doesn't know/isn't reacting because he's under Saruman's control! And high ranking people go along with the fantasy that things are fine because they're scared of both the king and Wormtongue.
Numenor is also apparently both so ready to help the Southlanders that there's not enough room to take everyone and also near revolt about sending volunteer troops (except maybe not, see big parade at the end). Ok, maybe they're going for a nation divided deal, but the crowd at any given point is just doing what the plot needs them to do.
It's just.... A succession of plot beats at this point. In some really gorgeous settings with some nice interactions between some characters. But still, just a bunch of plot beats.
posted by damayanti at 10:44 AM on September 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
Like, the elves were there to keep an eye on things, right? Make sure Sauron doesn't come back/the people there don't swear loyalty again? And somehow things get bad enough that Halbrand runs away and the orcs can destroy all these villages and Numenor can be very easily convinced "shits bad, gotta invade" and literally no one has noticed anything going on this whole time? Are the elves supposed to bad at their one job? (This included Galadriel who's apparently been searching all over for signs of Sauron for centuries!) Is the village we're focused on like, some obscure backwater? Did all of the other elf scouts get killed/ captured too, and no one noticed? It's unclear. See, for a parallel, Rohan in The Two Towers. Things are bad, a subset of people know things are bad and getting worse, and the king doesn't know/isn't reacting because he's under Saruman's control! And high ranking people go along with the fantasy that things are fine because they're scared of both the king and Wormtongue.
Numenor is also apparently both so ready to help the Southlanders that there's not enough room to take everyone and also near revolt about sending volunteer troops (except maybe not, see big parade at the end). Ok, maybe they're going for a nation divided deal, but the crowd at any given point is just doing what the plot needs them to do.
It's just.... A succession of plot beats at this point. In some really gorgeous settings with some nice interactions between some characters. But still, just a bunch of plot beats.
posted by damayanti at 10:44 AM on September 25, 2022 [9 favorites]
Also, I think the show has a Sopranos crew problem, wherein you have these massive empires that create incredible structures (the Numenoreans, Elves and Dwarves), but it feels like they have the population of a Broadway show. Which is a lot of people, but not enough people.
I mean it's easy to get overwhelmed by the level of detail and miss it, but holy shit the Numenoreans have a canal system with causeways and locks that go up waterfalls.
posted by ishmael at 10:49 AM on September 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
I mean it's easy to get overwhelmed by the level of detail and miss it, but holy shit the Numenoreans have a canal system with causeways and locks that go up waterfalls.
posted by ishmael at 10:49 AM on September 25, 2022 [6 favorites]
The whole thing is pretty, and maybe that's as good a reason to keep watching as any.
That thought occurred to me too- the show definitely feels more cinematic and expensive than other shows. The use of the score to accent dramatic moments contributes to that too.
posted by ishmael at 10:53 AM on September 25, 2022
That thought occurred to me too- the show definitely feels more cinematic and expensive than other shows. The use of the score to accent dramatic moments contributes to that too.
posted by ishmael at 10:53 AM on September 25, 2022
Eh, I actually like how poorly the elven military occupation of the Southlands worked. The elves (minus Arondir) disdained every person they met as the great-great-great-grandchild of a Morgoth collaborator and desperately wanted to return to the "civilized" lands of the elves. The humans despised the immortal overlords who kept watch over them at arrowpoint. Of course the elves ended up with bad information! But it also explains why Galadriel stayed away; as far as she knew, the Southlands had been watched over continuously since Morgoth's defeat and thus couldn't be the site of Sauron's resurgence.
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:00 AM on September 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:00 AM on September 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I'd follow Galadriel anywhere, Arondir's great, and the dwarves are just too perfect to put down.
Hard agree.
I would like to call a moratorium tho on the action trope where they "practice" with sharp, lethal weapons. Feels reckless and dumb, like looking into the barrel of a rifle. Galadriel is too smart/put-together for that.
Inevitably with those "training sessions", after a few moments of parry-thrusting, I realize that they are never going to actually make contact, making it feel hollow and devoid of danger.
posted by ishmael at 11:03 AM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Hard agree.
I would like to call a moratorium tho on the action trope where they "practice" with sharp, lethal weapons. Feels reckless and dumb, like looking into the barrel of a rifle. Galadriel is too smart/put-together for that.
Inevitably with those "training sessions", after a few moments of parry-thrusting, I realize that they are never going to actually make contact, making it feel hollow and devoid of danger.
posted by ishmael at 11:03 AM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
I have to say, it's also kind of hard to believe that the Southlands were in any way associated with the fighting for Morgoth. Mordor (let's be straight, that's where we are) is a HELLA LONG WAY from northern Beleriand, where the bulk of the fighting against Morgoth took place. It took a longass time for the ancestors of the Edain to migrate slowly into Beleriand, and the other humans who sided with Morgoth were from northern Middle Earth, not Mordor, Harad, Umbar, etc.
So did these Southlanders fight for Morgoth and then slowly migrate thousands of miles to the southwest, retaining their loyalty to Morgoth the whole time? I'm so confused.
I really want to like this: it is gorgeous! The acting is pretty good! But the plotting makes me jump up and down and wave my arms in frustration.
On another note, I saw someone on YT last night note that Halbarand is particularly good at talking his way out of things. And Adar's is pretty clearly not Sauron. And Sauron at this point in the timeline is supposed to be pretty attractive.
So I'm wondering if, among all the other ways they're playing fast and loose with the timeline, Sauron has already come to Numenor? (Although if so I would have expected him to be cozying up with Pharazon, and that hasn't really happened yet.)
On another another note, I am intrigued that the Numenorean resentment of the Elves really doesn't seem to connect to the One Big Thing about Elves that men would be expected to resent, which is their immortality. Instead it's all hand-waving and thinly-veiled references to immigration and xenophobia. But in the canon (sorry for the pedantry), Numenor turns against the Elves because Men are forbidden from travelling to the Undying Lands, and because Elves are clearly so much more wise/powerful/artistic than they are. Numenoreans want to go to Valinor because they think it will help them live forever: they want, basically, to BE ELVES.
I have other thoughts about the Palantir, and Miriel's claim that they're all missing, and what we know about the Palantiri in Middle-Earth, but I'll spare you.
posted by suelac at 11:10 AM on September 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
So did these Southlanders fight for Morgoth and then slowly migrate thousands of miles to the southwest, retaining their loyalty to Morgoth the whole time? I'm so confused.
I really want to like this: it is gorgeous! The acting is pretty good! But the plotting makes me jump up and down and wave my arms in frustration.
On another note, I saw someone on YT last night note that Halbarand is particularly good at talking his way out of things. And Adar's is pretty clearly not Sauron. And Sauron at this point in the timeline is supposed to be pretty attractive.
So I'm wondering if, among all the other ways they're playing fast and loose with the timeline, Sauron has already come to Numenor? (Although if so I would have expected him to be cozying up with Pharazon, and that hasn't really happened yet.)
On another another note, I am intrigued that the Numenorean resentment of the Elves really doesn't seem to connect to the One Big Thing about Elves that men would be expected to resent, which is their immortality. Instead it's all hand-waving and thinly-veiled references to immigration and xenophobia. But in the canon (sorry for the pedantry), Numenor turns against the Elves because Men are forbidden from travelling to the Undying Lands, and because Elves are clearly so much more wise/powerful/artistic than they are. Numenoreans want to go to Valinor because they think it will help them live forever: they want, basically, to BE ELVES.
I have other thoughts about the Palantir, and Miriel's claim that they're all missing, and what we know about the Palantiri in Middle-Earth, but I'll spare you.
posted by suelac at 11:10 AM on September 25, 2022 [12 favorites]
I think that brief scene of Evil Eminem was Adar's (Sauron's, if this theory is correct) memory of when he was pretty, maybe? And then the tavernkeeper not recognizing him infuriated him? But that is very far away from canon so I'm not betting large sums on it.
posted by restless_nomad at 11:17 AM on September 25, 2022
posted by restless_nomad at 11:17 AM on September 25, 2022
Has anyone caught the name of the corrupted elf/ Lee Pace-looking character?
posted by porpoise at 12:17 PM on September 25, 2022
posted by porpoise at 12:17 PM on September 25, 2022
That's the guy they're calling Adar, which means "father" in either Quenya or Sindarin.
posted by suelac at 1:11 PM on September 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by suelac at 1:11 PM on September 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I think that brief scene of Evil Eminem was Adar's (Sauron's, if this theory is correct) memory of when he was pretty, maybe? And then the tavernkeeper not recognizing him infuriated him?
Pretty sure they were inspecting the Stranger crater? Also one of them was holding a plate with the constellation that the Stranger was so worried about.
posted by ishmael at 2:57 PM on September 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
Pretty sure they were inspecting the Stranger crater? Also one of them was holding a plate with the constellation that the Stranger was so worried about.
posted by ishmael at 2:57 PM on September 25, 2022 [2 favorites]
I am enjoying the hell out of this, in stark contrast to my usual inability to un-clench if I’m perhaps a little too familiar with the source material.
What I’m enjoying even more is all the doctorate-level Tolkien exegesis that keeps showing up here, especially from suelac. Please, spare no one.
posted by hototogisu at 7:31 PM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
What I’m enjoying even more is all the doctorate-level Tolkien exegesis that keeps showing up here, especially from suelac. Please, spare no one.
posted by hototogisu at 7:31 PM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
They're playing incredibly fast and loose with the timeline (which they sort of have to - as someone else pointed out in these threads, you'd have the humans dying of old age between every episode, otherwise.)
Yeah, nothing is safe, and the very fact that we're seeing some people means that all time is compressed - Isildur alive here means that everything about Sauron must be compressed together veryveryquickly. The Rings of Power haven't even been forged yet!
posted by corb at 8:04 PM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Yeah, nothing is safe, and the very fact that we're seeing some people means that all time is compressed - Isildur alive here means that everything about Sauron must be compressed together veryveryquickly. The Rings of Power haven't even been forged yet!
posted by corb at 8:04 PM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
Thank you hototogisu!
My thinking on the Palantiri is pretty obvious: Miriel claims that this is the only Palantir she knows about. But we saw multiple Palantiri in LotR, thousands of years later. They were made by Feanor and brought to Middle-Earth by the Noldor Exiles, and presumably used for communication. Most were probably lost in the wars, but clearly Elros was given some when Numenor was established.
The poem Gandalf recites to Pippin on the way to Minas Tirith says that Elendil brought seven stones with him to Middle-Earth when he fled Numenor. So I think it's pretty clear that the as-yet unseen son Anarion is camped out in western Numenor with a bunch more Elf-friends, and the last seven Palantiri.
posted by suelac at 8:28 PM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
My thinking on the Palantiri is pretty obvious: Miriel claims that this is the only Palantir she knows about. But we saw multiple Palantiri in LotR, thousands of years later. They were made by Feanor and brought to Middle-Earth by the Noldor Exiles, and presumably used for communication. Most were probably lost in the wars, but clearly Elros was given some when Numenor was established.
The poem Gandalf recites to Pippin on the way to Minas Tirith says that Elendil brought seven stones with him to Middle-Earth when he fled Numenor. So I think it's pretty clear that the as-yet unseen son Anarion is camped out in western Numenor with a bunch more Elf-friends, and the last seven Palantiri.
posted by suelac at 8:28 PM on September 25, 2022 [3 favorites]
There are many things that aren't right in this show, but they don't bother me. I am really enjoying it, and have no problem just saying "eh, whatever" to the various plot holes, weird motivations, obviously made-up stuff to paper over story that's just not in the LOTR appendices, etc
I agree.
Isildur alive here means that everything about Sauron must be compressed together veryveryquickly. The Rings of Power haven't even been forged yet!
we've now seen five of the eight episodes which tells me that season one is not going to get to the big deal showdown with Sauron which is depicted in the prologue of Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring -- not even close.
Methinks we've still got a long way to go ...
posted by philip-random at 10:29 PM on September 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
I agree.
Isildur alive here means that everything about Sauron must be compressed together veryveryquickly. The Rings of Power haven't even been forged yet!
we've now seen five of the eight episodes which tells me that season one is not going to get to the big deal showdown with Sauron which is depicted in the prologue of Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring -- not even close.
Methinks we've still got a long way to go ...
posted by philip-random at 10:29 PM on September 25, 2022 [4 favorites]
This is the first episode that kind of annoyed me, for all the reasons people have listed, but I still enjoyed it.
I think what ultimately holds the show together is the overall aesthetic, which is really strong. For me anyway, a lot of the comic book and fantasy media out there feel very similar - not that they can't be good or bad, but they're all using the same palette. With this show I feel like I immediately know that I'm watching it, and it's ultimately a unique world I like visiting.
posted by Alex404 at 12:55 AM on September 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think what ultimately holds the show together is the overall aesthetic, which is really strong. For me anyway, a lot of the comic book and fantasy media out there feel very similar - not that they can't be good or bad, but they're all using the same palette. With this show I feel like I immediately know that I'm watching it, and it's ultimately a unique world I like visiting.
posted by Alex404 at 12:55 AM on September 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
I think there are multiple seasons planned. We might get some of the Rings forged by the end of this season. Or we might get a Sauron reveal, which I think is still to come (I think Adar will end up as the Mouth of Sauron, not Sauron himself).
suelac, I take your point about geography. I think what they're doing is, rather than look back towards the Silmarillion where North is evil's domain, they're looking forward towards LOTR where the South and East are under Mordor's dominion. (Problematic, JRR, problematic my dude)
In-universe, I guess I can headcanon Halbrand's folk as former Easterlings of Ulfang and Ulwarth's Houses, who ended up as Southrons after the world was broken in the War of Wrath (maybe??)
As for "why didn't Galadriel know there were Orcs in the Southlands": I think the problem here is that, at this point, no one is thinking globally. We're seeing a bunch of fragmentary stories from isolated societies that fear or disdain outsiders. This is the sort of thing that the Council of the Wise later gets formed to counter (Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Saruman and I forget who else). Also there are no Palantìri on the mainland (yet) that we know of, so information necessarily travels slowly and haphazardly, at the speed of foot or horse.
(We don't even know if Arondir has tried to send word to Gil-Galad, or what Gil-Galad would do if the message reached him)
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:40 AM on September 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
suelac, I take your point about geography. I think what they're doing is, rather than look back towards the Silmarillion where North is evil's domain, they're looking forward towards LOTR where the South and East are under Mordor's dominion. (Problematic, JRR, problematic my dude)
In-universe, I guess I can headcanon Halbrand's folk as former Easterlings of Ulfang and Ulwarth's Houses, who ended up as Southrons after the world was broken in the War of Wrath (maybe??)
As for "why didn't Galadriel know there were Orcs in the Southlands": I think the problem here is that, at this point, no one is thinking globally. We're seeing a bunch of fragmentary stories from isolated societies that fear or disdain outsiders. This is the sort of thing that the Council of the Wise later gets formed to counter (Galadriel, Elrond, Gandalf, Saruman and I forget who else). Also there are no Palantìri on the mainland (yet) that we know of, so information necessarily travels slowly and haphazardly, at the speed of foot or horse.
(We don't even know if Arondir has tried to send word to Gil-Galad, or what Gil-Galad would do if the message reached him)
posted by Pallas Athena at 6:40 AM on September 26, 2022 [7 favorites]
This show does feel a little like it's meandering, but I love looking at it so darn much.
I'm still wishing for a super-extended version of Lord of the Rings
posted by Fleebnork at 10:57 AM on September 26, 2022
I'm still wishing for a super-extended version of Lord of the Rings
posted by Fleebnork at 10:57 AM on September 26, 2022
I seem to be one of the few one who loves the Harfoots (I know: their accents! their twee!) because of how they are *survivors*. Completely defenseless, perpetually terrified, they still manage to survive and even thrive and enjoy life, all while sinking every last build point into Hide and Move Silently.
Tolkien told us that hobbits were good at hiding, and now we know why.
posted by Mogur at 12:18 PM on September 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
Tolkien told us that hobbits were good at hiding, and now we know why.
posted by Mogur at 12:18 PM on September 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
I seem to be one of the few one who loves the Harfoots (I know: their accents! their twee!) because of how they are *survivors*.
I'm not a fan of musicals, and I usually skimmed past the songs in the books, but Poppy's song really got to me! The notion of striving and searching, despite the hardships along the way, really hit a chord in me.
posted by ishmael at 12:42 PM on September 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm not a fan of musicals, and I usually skimmed past the songs in the books, but Poppy's song really got to me! The notion of striving and searching, despite the hardships along the way, really hit a chord in me.
posted by ishmael at 12:42 PM on September 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Tolkien told us that hobbits were good at hiding, and now we know why.
It would be interesting if the Harfoots interacted with the Drúedain, the Wild Men, who briefly appeared in the person of Ghân-buri-Ghân, who assisted the Riders of Rohan. That might be too deep a cut for this series, but the Harfoots and the Woses both seem to specialize in keeping out of sight to avoid trouble.
posted by SPrintF at 12:43 PM on September 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
It would be interesting if the Harfoots interacted with the Drúedain, the Wild Men, who briefly appeared in the person of Ghân-buri-Ghân, who assisted the Riders of Rohan. That might be too deep a cut for this series, but the Harfoots and the Woses both seem to specialize in keeping out of sight to avoid trouble.
posted by SPrintF at 12:43 PM on September 26, 2022 [5 favorites]
I didn't realize it until reading some of these comments, but I think one of the reasons I really really like this so far is BECAUSE it's so slow. We get time to marinate in these places with these people. How rare is that in today's big IP shows???
Also, the music's growing on me. This ep's ending had me about as giddy as Two Towers did in the theater, tbh.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:34 PM on September 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also, the music's growing on me. This ep's ending had me about as giddy as Two Towers did in the theater, tbh.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:34 PM on September 26, 2022 [3 favorites]
season one is not going to get to the big deal showdown with Sauron which is depicted in the prologue yt of Jackson's Fellowship of the Ring
That will be the end of the series (season 5), I would guess.
If it's all planned out, I don't mind the show taking its time to set up things in season 1 to pay off later. I like this world. I think the characters/actors and design elements are enough to look at. And the pieces are moving around the board. I'm sure we'll get some big set piece battle soon enough, but I'd be happy for that to be in the season finale. I like that we're taking time to get places and not pushing hard and fast, chewing up lots of plot.
posted by crossoverman at 5:37 PM on September 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
That will be the end of the series (season 5), I would guess.
If it's all planned out, I don't mind the show taking its time to set up things in season 1 to pay off later. I like this world. I think the characters/actors and design elements are enough to look at. And the pieces are moving around the board. I'm sure we'll get some big set piece battle soon enough, but I'd be happy for that to be in the season finale. I like that we're taking time to get places and not pushing hard and fast, chewing up lots of plot.
posted by crossoverman at 5:37 PM on September 26, 2022 [1 favorite]
We need to talk about the Harfoots. (slPaste)
posted by fiercekitten at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
posted by fiercekitten at 7:01 PM on September 26, 2022 [8 favorites]
That Harfoots article is spot on, although it does neglect to mention that at one point sprained-ankle guy says it should be okay as long as we’re at the front of the convoy and then they immediately place that family at the back, along with the young woman who already lost the rest of her family. As pretty as these CG vistas often are, it seems that no amount of money can buy good writing. So little in this show makes sense in either the macro/plot level or the character/emotional level.
posted by snofoam at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2022
posted by snofoam at 8:02 PM on September 26, 2022
I also like the Harfoots. I think they help change up the tone of the show.
One thing I also keep in mind is that by the end of the show a lot of these really nice places are going to be destroyed, Numenor and Khazad-Dum in particular. Imagining that the Harfoots are at least going to found the Shire helps counterbalance the grimness of that inevitability.
Edit: Although on further research, it seems that Khazad-Dum is fine by the end of the Second Age.
posted by Alex404 at 12:39 AM on September 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
One thing I also keep in mind is that by the end of the show a lot of these really nice places are going to be destroyed, Numenor and Khazad-Dum in particular. Imagining that the Harfoots are at least going to found the Shire helps counterbalance the grimness of that inevitability.
Edit: Although on further research, it seems that Khazad-Dum is fine by the end of the Second Age.
posted by Alex404 at 12:39 AM on September 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
We need to talk about the Harfoots.
1. That article paints a too rosy tinted image of the Hobbits, in my opinion. Frankly, their clannish ways and insistence of disliking outsiders and never wanting to learn about greater world always struck me as just a few steps from a small town racism.
2. The points the article makes about how harsh and pragmatic the Harfoots compared to the caring Hobbits we know is something Nori also pointed out in Episode 3. She explicitly questions what's the point of just surviving if they're leaving friends behind. By the usual narrative rules, it's pretty clear that she's going to be spark or leader that brings the Harfoots more in line with the Hobbits that we know.
Supposedly the show is planned out to the extent that creators know what the last shot will be, and that some of the things seen in Season 1 won't pay off until Season 5, which will be the final season. We're gonna have to be patient.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:05 PM on September 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
1. That article paints a too rosy tinted image of the Hobbits, in my opinion. Frankly, their clannish ways and insistence of disliking outsiders and never wanting to learn about greater world always struck me as just a few steps from a small town racism.
2. The points the article makes about how harsh and pragmatic the Harfoots compared to the caring Hobbits we know is something Nori also pointed out in Episode 3. She explicitly questions what's the point of just surviving if they're leaving friends behind. By the usual narrative rules, it's pretty clear that she's going to be spark or leader that brings the Harfoots more in line with the Hobbits that we know.
Supposedly the show is planned out to the extent that creators know what the last shot will be, and that some of the things seen in Season 1 won't pay off until Season 5, which will be the final season. We're gonna have to be patient.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:05 PM on September 27, 2022 [3 favorites]
The Shire isn't founded until Third Age 1601, so I hope we don't see these Harfoots found the Shire. This show is condensing thousands of years of Legendarium into a few years but it seems to be set right at the end of the Second Age, so I hope that it stays there. More likely we'll see them settle on the Anduin near Gladden Fields, and the main Harfoot will turn out to be Smeagol's grandmother.
posted by surlyben at 8:42 PM on September 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by surlyben at 8:42 PM on September 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
Yeah I'm assuming they're the lead-in to Gollum.
posted by restless_nomad at 5:14 AM on September 28, 2022
posted by restless_nomad at 5:14 AM on September 28, 2022
I'm not a fan of musicals, and I usually skimmed past the songs in the books, but Poppy's song really got to me!
I am a fan of musicals, but I skip the poetry in LOTR because I find reading verse tedious (except for the Man in the Moon song in Fellowship). And Poppy's song was nice.
The music in general here is pretty good...most of my experience of Bear McReary's work is Battlestar Galactica, which seemed to be all drums. I'm not noticing the music here, which is really a soundtrack composer's job. It underlies what you see on the screen, clues the viewer about emotion and foreshadowing. I'm actually less impressed with Howard Shore's theme than with Bear McReary's scoring.
Frankly, their clannish ways and insistence of disliking outsiders and never wanting to learn about greater world always struck me as just a few steps from a small town racism.
Well, I think you're right. The Hobbits were the everyday people of Tolkien's England, good and bad. Bilbo and Frodo were more cosmopolitan, Merry and Pippin were young and open to experience, and Sam started out very much a product of his place and people. I think he grew more tolerant after his experience in the war of the Ring, but remained the insular, backwater hobbit at heart. The Harfoots look like an honest look at what kind of culture led to the Shire society of the third age.
posted by lhauser at 6:50 AM on September 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I am a fan of musicals, but I skip the poetry in LOTR because I find reading verse tedious (except for the Man in the Moon song in Fellowship). And Poppy's song was nice.
The music in general here is pretty good...most of my experience of Bear McReary's work is Battlestar Galactica, which seemed to be all drums. I'm not noticing the music here, which is really a soundtrack composer's job. It underlies what you see on the screen, clues the viewer about emotion and foreshadowing. I'm actually less impressed with Howard Shore's theme than with Bear McReary's scoring.
Frankly, their clannish ways and insistence of disliking outsiders and never wanting to learn about greater world always struck me as just a few steps from a small town racism.
Well, I think you're right. The Hobbits were the everyday people of Tolkien's England, good and bad. Bilbo and Frodo were more cosmopolitan, Merry and Pippin were young and open to experience, and Sam started out very much a product of his place and people. I think he grew more tolerant after his experience in the war of the Ring, but remained the insular, backwater hobbit at heart. The Harfoots look like an honest look at what kind of culture led to the Shire society of the third age.
posted by lhauser at 6:50 AM on September 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
guys they literally shipped galadriel and halbrand
posted by lalochezia at 9:11 PM on September 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by lalochezia at 9:11 PM on September 28, 2022 [6 favorites]
I wanted to like this show but have not really been able to. I've read LOTR a few times throughout my life and it was my favorite book. I can't really seem to be able to get in to fantasy anymore. I don't know it's weird. It seems I can't really do the suspension of disbelief like I can for other stuff.
Nothing wrong if you like it. Wish I could.
Anyways. I don't care for the way they are playing with the identity of the Stranger. At least two episodes they have shown him in the crater with a shot that looks just like the eye of Sauron. I'd be disappointed if they all this foreshadowing and it turned out to be someone else. Who knows with these guys though.
posted by Justin Case at 8:24 AM on September 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
Nothing wrong if you like it. Wish I could.
Anyways. I don't care for the way they are playing with the identity of the Stranger. At least two episodes they have shown him in the crater with a shot that looks just like the eye of Sauron. I'd be disappointed if they all this foreshadowing and it turned out to be someone else. Who knows with these guys though.
posted by Justin Case at 8:24 AM on September 30, 2022 [1 favorite]
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Mild note: If something happens to Disa, I will metaphorically burn down the creator's home cities.
Galadriel and Halbrand is a more complicated pairing and one that doesn't always work. Mostly because both are always fighting and therefore aggressive with other characters, which can wear thin. Still, they both have softer sides, which are slowly being revealed, though Halbrand's final decision to join the expedition to Middle Earth didn't feel earned and came off as sudden.
The Hardfoot story arc is fine, though generally the least interesting at this point. Nothing terrible at all, but the mystery of the stranger is wearing a little thin, but that's just a me thing.
The ending of the episode felt very grand, like it was the final episode of the season, which felt odd. But it was gloriously hopeful and beautifully shot, so that was great. Just means everything is going to go to crap, right?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:41 AM on September 25, 2022 [8 favorites]