The White Lotus: That's Amore
November 27, 2022 7:19 PM - Season 2, Episode 5 - Subscribe
Tania and Portia embark on a whirlwind excursion with Quentin and Jack. Unsure what to believe, Harper gets real with Cam and Daphne.
I think this was the best episode of the series so far, in either season. Just utterly captivating. Nearly every character was out of character from our first point meeting them. Lots of good scenes but my favorite was Bert and Dominic just being real with each other. Two tremendous acting talents shooting the shit. It was great.
Valentina breaks my heart. I still don't know what her deal is but I know she is so lonely, and it may just be that. If she is gay (I'm really not sure!), she is the inverse of Armond, who is still is the one character in both seasons who was the most comfortable being unapologetically himself.
This episode also still confirms my belief that Lucia and Mia are this season's main characters.
posted by guiseroom at 3:46 AM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
Valentina breaks my heart. I still don't know what her deal is but I know she is so lonely, and it may just be that. If she is gay (I'm really not sure!), she is the inverse of Armond, who is still is the one character in both seasons who was the most comfortable being unapologetically himself.
This episode also still confirms my belief that Lucia and Mia are this season's main characters.
posted by guiseroom at 3:46 AM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
I'm not 100% sure, but I think Daphne was showing her kid's photo to indicate that her blonde, blue-eyed child was the child of her blonde, blue-eyed trainer.
These fucking people. All they care about is scoring points. (Specifically referring to Cam and Daphne, but a little bit the other rich folks too).
posted by ishmael at 10:57 AM on November 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
These fucking people. All they care about is scoring points. (Specifically referring to Cam and Daphne, but a little bit the other rich folks too).
posted by ishmael at 10:57 AM on November 28, 2022 [18 favorites]
I'm not 100% sure, but I think Daphne was showing her kid's photo to indicate that her blonde, blue-eyed child was the child of her blonde, blue-eyed trainer.
That was how I interpreted it.
posted by gaspode at 11:18 AM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
That was how I interpreted it.
posted by gaspode at 11:18 AM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
This show. Just when you think the tension might let go a bit it just keeps ratcheting up.
Portia and Albie failed to hook up with each other and both ran off with sex workers.
"Look at that pool! These are some high-end gays."
posted by arha at 12:01 PM on November 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
Portia and Albie failed to hook up with each other and both ran off with sex workers.
"Look at that pool! These are some high-end gays."
posted by arha at 12:01 PM on November 28, 2022 [9 favorites]
The Puccini opera does tie in very nicely with the local legend of the moor’s head - the stranger who seduced a local girl with promises of marriage, who already had a wife at home, and was killed for that. It’s about empty promises, crushed hope, seduction by false pretense. With the moor, it ends in murder, with Puccini, it ends in suicide. I think we might get both murder and suicide by the end of the series - suicide seems clearly tied to the Tanya plot - the forshadowing at the Tarot reading. Someone mentioned Dominic as a potential candidate.
I could see Dominic killing himself! He seems like he’s protesting a bit too much with all that talk about not getting love affairs. To me, that story about the cowboy mostly just suggests that he has a bad habit of falling for straight guys. I think it’s more likely to allude to the naughty nephew rather than Greg. I think Dominic is not satisfied by the transactional nature of the arrangement, and also, he knows it will end soon, because he’s running out of money. Soon he won’t be able to afford any of the beauty he lives for. I could see him not sticking it out to the bitter end and instead wanting to go out in style - killing himself in a final, dramatic, grand gesture. And he might want to use Tanya as a prop. She does add a certain flair to things.
Worst case scenario: he’s been thinking about suicde for ages, but has always been too craven to go through with it, so he tries to talk Tanya into a double-suicide to fortify his resolve. “Would you die for beauty” does seem a bit sinister, a bit like testing the waters. But I’m sure Tanya is safe.
However I don’t see any seduction by false pretense in this storyline. There’s a fair bit of pretense (the rentboy pretending to be the nephew), but it’s used for cover, not for seduction. I don’t think Portia is horribly deceived. She might be somewhat unsettled by the revelation, but I can’t see her being terribly crushed. She was having some fun, not planning to marry.
Seduction by false pretense might be at play between Albie and Lucia. But this time it’s the local girl who’s doing the pretending. I love Lucia, but at this point I definitely think she’s trying to play Albie. First I thought she wanted to become the girlfriend and be taken back to the States, but now I feel silly about that, because there is no reason whatsoever to believe she’d be naive enough to think that could work. She has clearly clocked Albie as someone who wants to save the damsel, and now she’s inventing an ogre he can save her from. Let’s hope it will only cost him money.
I’ve been fairly sceptical about Albie so far, but this episode he has won back a lot of points with me, for the gracious goodbye with Portia. If they leave it at that, they’re both a bit redeemed in my eyes.
I’m still rooting for Lucia not to get punished for her hustle. My dream ending is that she can keep up the charade until the end, and he leaves, a bit poorer (but honestly, he can afford it, can’t he?), but feeling good about himself.
(I had a theory, where Albie asks Lucia to be his girlfriend and promises to take her to America, and then gets cold feet and goes back to Portia, to more closely match the original tale. But it’s too convoluted, and there are not enough episodes left).
posted by sohalt at 2:23 PM on November 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
I could see Dominic killing himself! He seems like he’s protesting a bit too much with all that talk about not getting love affairs. To me, that story about the cowboy mostly just suggests that he has a bad habit of falling for straight guys. I think it’s more likely to allude to the naughty nephew rather than Greg. I think Dominic is not satisfied by the transactional nature of the arrangement, and also, he knows it will end soon, because he’s running out of money. Soon he won’t be able to afford any of the beauty he lives for. I could see him not sticking it out to the bitter end and instead wanting to go out in style - killing himself in a final, dramatic, grand gesture. And he might want to use Tanya as a prop. She does add a certain flair to things.
Worst case scenario: he’s been thinking about suicde for ages, but has always been too craven to go through with it, so he tries to talk Tanya into a double-suicide to fortify his resolve. “Would you die for beauty” does seem a bit sinister, a bit like testing the waters. But I’m sure Tanya is safe.
However I don’t see any seduction by false pretense in this storyline. There’s a fair bit of pretense (the rentboy pretending to be the nephew), but it’s used for cover, not for seduction. I don’t think Portia is horribly deceived. She might be somewhat unsettled by the revelation, but I can’t see her being terribly crushed. She was having some fun, not planning to marry.
Seduction by false pretense might be at play between Albie and Lucia. But this time it’s the local girl who’s doing the pretending. I love Lucia, but at this point I definitely think she’s trying to play Albie. First I thought she wanted to become the girlfriend and be taken back to the States, but now I feel silly about that, because there is no reason whatsoever to believe she’d be naive enough to think that could work. She has clearly clocked Albie as someone who wants to save the damsel, and now she’s inventing an ogre he can save her from. Let’s hope it will only cost him money.
I’ve been fairly sceptical about Albie so far, but this episode he has won back a lot of points with me, for the gracious goodbye with Portia. If they leave it at that, they’re both a bit redeemed in my eyes.
I’m still rooting for Lucia not to get punished for her hustle. My dream ending is that she can keep up the charade until the end, and he leaves, a bit poorer (but honestly, he can afford it, can’t he?), but feeling good about himself.
(I had a theory, where Albie asks Lucia to be his girlfriend and promises to take her to America, and then gets cold feet and goes back to Portia, to more closely match the original tale. But it’s too convoluted, and there are not enough episodes left).
posted by sohalt at 2:23 PM on November 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm not 100% sure, but I think Daphne was showing her kid's photo to indicate that her blonde, blue-eyed child was the child of her blonde, blue-eyed trainer.
The baby-daddy is totally the trainer. The opening sequence has a woman riding on a donkey, accompanied by a man, which is clearly an allusion to Mary and Josef, which is clearly an allusion to intransparent paternity.
posted by sohalt at 2:37 PM on November 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
The baby-daddy is totally the trainer. The opening sequence has a woman riding on a donkey, accompanied by a man, which is clearly an allusion to Mary and Josef, which is clearly an allusion to intransparent paternity.
posted by sohalt at 2:37 PM on November 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
There are allusions everywhere. I first starting paying attention to Mike White when I realized The Good Girl was a retelling of Madame Bovary, which I'd just read. In this season, I see possible nods to the Italian-set Death in Venice, Portrait of a Lady, and some of the work of gay playwright Edward Albee.
I thought this episode was the most interesting of the second season to date, but I also thought earlier episodes were too static, and I have not been a fan of Aubry Plaza's role in this. Her dourness seems to envelop—or speak for—everyone else, which is as good a transition as any to talk about duplicates. I'm starting to see duplicates everywhere: Portia echoes Tania. Dom echoes his father. Harper and Ethan strike me as similarly dour, smart and seething. But there are spitfire parallels between Cam and Harper's personalities too. Lucia and Mia often walk arm and arm, and they, too, have much in common, as do Albie and Portia's respective sex worker paramours.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:00 PM on November 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I thought this episode was the most interesting of the second season to date, but I also thought earlier episodes were too static, and I have not been a fan of Aubry Plaza's role in this. Her dourness seems to envelop—or speak for—everyone else, which is as good a transition as any to talk about duplicates. I'm starting to see duplicates everywhere: Portia echoes Tania. Dom echoes his father. Harper and Ethan strike me as similarly dour, smart and seething. But there are spitfire parallels between Cam and Harper's personalities too. Lucia and Mia often walk arm and arm, and they, too, have much in common, as do Albie and Portia's respective sex worker paramours.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:00 PM on November 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
My hunch is that Greg is the cowboy since Quentin remarked that his cowboy-love was awhile ago, but he'd still do anything for him - so that suggests Jack is too young to be the cowboy.
I'm a bit rusty in my memory -before Greg leaves he has a call in which he say "she doesn't suspect anything" - was that his cell or the room phone? If the latter, would suggest perhaps it was a local call.
Quentin has promised Tanya the chance to get back at Greg and have a tryst of her own - what I don't quite get is how that would benefit Greg. Perhaps the man Quentin sets her up with will do the killing? There is something un-killable about Tanya though - she is so solidly who she is - I wouldn't be shocked it she ends up somehow accidentally killing her hitman.
Other thoughts:
-My hunch is the man who got angry with Lucia is her boyfriend, who knows what she does for money and while he tolerates it, he also doesn't like it.
-I don't get why Dominic doesn't just cut off Lucia and Mia - a bit unbelievable. I mean, I can believe he feels bad for cutting their arrangement short, but a hard time believing he wouldn't prioritize his own reputation with his son first - plus he's clearly worried Albie is learning the wrong lessons here. Lucia certainly seems to be pushing her luck.
-Valentina as a character isn't quite believable to me - are we supposed to believe this is the first time she's made a move on someone? Because she sure seems to not know what she's doing. I get Sicily is likely not the easiest place to a be a lesbian in her generation, but given her intense professionalism the whole plot line feels a bit off.
-The wine tasting scene was a delightful mix of tension and excess. That, and Bert approaching a moment of growth but then doubling down on his "simple" perception of reality were my two favorite scenes of this episode.
posted by coffeecat at 3:32 PM on November 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm a bit rusty in my memory -before Greg leaves he has a call in which he say "she doesn't suspect anything" - was that his cell or the room phone? If the latter, would suggest perhaps it was a local call.
Quentin has promised Tanya the chance to get back at Greg and have a tryst of her own - what I don't quite get is how that would benefit Greg. Perhaps the man Quentin sets her up with will do the killing? There is something un-killable about Tanya though - she is so solidly who she is - I wouldn't be shocked it she ends up somehow accidentally killing her hitman.
Other thoughts:
-My hunch is the man who got angry with Lucia is her boyfriend, who knows what she does for money and while he tolerates it, he also doesn't like it.
-I don't get why Dominic doesn't just cut off Lucia and Mia - a bit unbelievable. I mean, I can believe he feels bad for cutting their arrangement short, but a hard time believing he wouldn't prioritize his own reputation with his son first - plus he's clearly worried Albie is learning the wrong lessons here. Lucia certainly seems to be pushing her luck.
-Valentina as a character isn't quite believable to me - are we supposed to believe this is the first time she's made a move on someone? Because she sure seems to not know what she's doing. I get Sicily is likely not the easiest place to a be a lesbian in her generation, but given her intense professionalism the whole plot line feels a bit off.
-The wine tasting scene was a delightful mix of tension and excess. That, and Bert approaching a moment of growth but then doubling down on his "simple" perception of reality were my two favorite scenes of this episode.
posted by coffeecat at 3:32 PM on November 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Ah, okay, pieces fall together for a plausible murder. I have been thinking all along that Greg left Tanya for a few days in order to set up murder plans. I am now thinking that involved having Quentin befriend Tanya while he is away. And that when Greg was on the phone on the balcony, he was speaking to Quentin. And that Quentin will receive a part of Tanya's money in order to help Greg. But Quentin may be conflicted and could be having cold feet. He looked pretty stricken at the opera.
posted by nanook at 3:43 PM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by nanook at 3:43 PM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
Oh, and Daphne telling Harper "Maybe you should get a trainer" seems particularly loaded given that Harper expressed interest in have kids, but they clearly aren't having sex.
posted by coffeecat at 4:04 PM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 4:04 PM on November 28, 2022 [5 favorites]
I love Lucia, but at this point I definitely think she’s trying to play Albie.
I heard a theory on a podcast that Lucia might be related to Albie, Dom and Bert. Opens a different can o worms.
posted by ishmael at 4:18 PM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
I heard a theory on a podcast that Lucia might be related to Albie, Dom and Bert. Opens a different can o worms.
posted by ishmael at 4:18 PM on November 28, 2022 [1 favorite]
"I heard a theory on a podcast that Lucia might be related to Albie, Dom and Bert. Opens a different can o worms."
Woah! I got curious about Alessio's role as there has been so much talk about it since his second appearance, and I speak Italian. But it's ambiguous in Italian too. In their first encounter, they were promising to call each other that night, as couples do. In the second, he starts out by asking her if she's been having fun, and she says yes, and quickly starts claiming that she was just taking a walk in the face of what appears to be jealousy. It's hard to tell: He said one line I simply couldn't catch. But I was aware that he seemed to be looking Albie's way the whole time.
posted by Violet Blue at 4:27 PM on November 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Woah! I got curious about Alessio's role as there has been so much talk about it since his second appearance, and I speak Italian. But it's ambiguous in Italian too. In their first encounter, they were promising to call each other that night, as couples do. In the second, he starts out by asking her if she's been having fun, and she says yes, and quickly starts claiming that she was just taking a walk in the face of what appears to be jealousy. It's hard to tell: He said one line I simply couldn't catch. But I was aware that he seemed to be looking Albie's way the whole time.
posted by Violet Blue at 4:27 PM on November 28, 2022 [3 favorites]
Prediction: The high-end gays are going to break Tania's heart by making it clear they just want money from her - probably quite a lot of money.
posted by Paul Slade at 10:55 PM on November 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 10:55 PM on November 28, 2022 [4 favorites]
... Lucia might be related to Albie, Dom and Bert.
That would be hilarious - that would be 100% comedy of the first order. And this is my beef with the series - I don't find much humor in any of this - its mostly all bitter and miserable and 'transactional.' Mostly I'm watching to find out who gets killed and how. It's a bit as if Patricia Highsmith lived another ~30 years and found a producer in Ho-wood to give her a deal. I enjoyed the Ripley books, but not in a relaxing way - and I would never think of them as 'comedy.'
Also, Valentina's interaction with Mia was pretty fucking heartbreaking. Seriously - such a frank, open, honest portrayal of loneliness and despair.
It's a weird show - like, deeply weird. I don't like these rich people and sure as shit don't envy them.
“Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me. They possess and enjoy early, and it does something to them, makes them soft where we are hard, and cynical where we are trustful, in a way that, unless you were born rich, it is very difficult to understand. They think, deep in their hearts, that they are better than we are because we had to discover the compensations and refuges of life for ourselves. Even when they enter deep into our world or sink below us, they still think that they are better than we
are. They are different. ”
I heard an interview with Mike White not that long ago and this was the thing, that keeps popping into my head - he was not born, nor raised 'rich.'
posted by From Bklyn at 2:39 AM on December 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
That would be hilarious - that would be 100% comedy of the first order. And this is my beef with the series - I don't find much humor in any of this - its mostly all bitter and miserable and 'transactional.' Mostly I'm watching to find out who gets killed and how. It's a bit as if Patricia Highsmith lived another ~30 years and found a producer in Ho-wood to give her a deal. I enjoyed the Ripley books, but not in a relaxing way - and I would never think of them as 'comedy.'
Also, Valentina's interaction with Mia was pretty fucking heartbreaking. Seriously - such a frank, open, honest portrayal of loneliness and despair.
It's a weird show - like, deeply weird. I don't like these rich people and sure as shit don't envy them.
“Let me tell you about the very rich. They are different from you and me. They possess and enjoy early, and it does something to them, makes them soft where we are hard, and cynical where we are trustful, in a way that, unless you were born rich, it is very difficult to understand. They think, deep in their hearts, that they are better than we are because we had to discover the compensations and refuges of life for ourselves. Even when they enter deep into our world or sink below us, they still think that they are better than we
are. They are different. ”
I heard an interview with Mike White not that long ago and this was the thing, that keeps popping into my head - he was not born, nor raised 'rich.'
posted by From Bklyn at 2:39 AM on December 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
I've laughed quite a few times with this season, but I get the gist of what you mean.
Isn't that the tone of Mike White's series overall, though? An exploration of human frailty, and how people react when they are thrust into situations that they are not prepared for, despite whatever resentments that have been piling up under the surface for years.
posted by ishmael at 8:37 AM on December 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
Isn't that the tone of Mike White's series overall, though? An exploration of human frailty, and how people react when they are thrust into situations that they are not prepared for, despite whatever resentments that have been piling up under the surface for years.
posted by ishmael at 8:37 AM on December 1, 2022 [2 favorites]
And trying, to the best of their ability, to deal with their situations. It's just that so many people are unprepared for life as it comes.
Wealth, according to White, just seems to coax all the wrong traits out of people, leaving them bereft when they have to deal with the consequences of situations that they helped cultivate.
posted by ishmael at 8:43 AM on December 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
Wealth, according to White, just seems to coax all the wrong traits out of people, leaving them bereft when they have to deal with the consequences of situations that they helped cultivate.
posted by ishmael at 8:43 AM on December 1, 2022 [1 favorite]
"I don't find much humor in any of this - its mostly all bitter and miserable and 'transactional.'"
Agreed, and I think it differs radically from the first season which had more compelling, but also more human characters.
I thought Murray Bartlett's charm-filled and rage-fueled energy was wonderful in Season 1. His foe Jack Lacy was detestable but just as compulsively watchable because he would just not let go. I also empathized with his new bride, torn being doing the right thing and being comfortable, just as I empathized with Steve Zahn's manhood and cancer travails, Connie Britton's do-it-all womanhood exhaustion, and their son's silent quest for something else. I liked things about these people, or at least related to aspects of their humanity.
Mike White at his best is brilliant: See, for example, the Good Girl or the series Enlightened. But at his worst, he is terrible. Season 2 of White Lotus reminds me a bit of Beatriz at Dinner, which I loathed. Everything starts with the characters, and most of the characters in the second season are, frankly, a bit dull and feel too function-driven.
posted by Violet Blue at 12:28 PM on December 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
Agreed, and I think it differs radically from the first season which had more compelling, but also more human characters.
I thought Murray Bartlett's charm-filled and rage-fueled energy was wonderful in Season 1. His foe Jack Lacy was detestable but just as compulsively watchable because he would just not let go. I also empathized with his new bride, torn being doing the right thing and being comfortable, just as I empathized with Steve Zahn's manhood and cancer travails, Connie Britton's do-it-all womanhood exhaustion, and their son's silent quest for something else. I liked things about these people, or at least related to aspects of their humanity.
Mike White at his best is brilliant: See, for example, the Good Girl or the series Enlightened. But at his worst, he is terrible. Season 2 of White Lotus reminds me a bit of Beatriz at Dinner, which I loathed. Everything starts with the characters, and most of the characters in the second season are, frankly, a bit dull and feel too function-driven.
posted by Violet Blue at 12:28 PM on December 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
Having thought about it a bit more, I think Ethan knows that Cam and Daphne are broke.
He is deeply resentful of Cam, knew that Cam would try to pitch to him on this trip, and wanted the opportunity to turn him down and rub it in his face.
And he's gonna kill somebody.
posted by ishmael at 6:44 PM on December 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
He is deeply resentful of Cam, knew that Cam would try to pitch to him on this trip, and wanted the opportunity to turn him down and rub it in his face.
And he's gonna kill somebody.
posted by ishmael at 6:44 PM on December 2, 2022 [4 favorites]
I like that this episode, along with all the plot advancements and hints, is also a treatise on love and on beauty in their many forms: the characters themselves and their affairs but also the opulence in clothing, architecture, landscape and music. The White Lotus, both seasons, seems to have an interest not just in what lures rich people to a beautiful place - but also on how that place affects them insidiously. Sicily itself has built its appeal from the violence of volcanic destruction, from that of waves of invaders over the century, and from ‘Cosa n’osera’- beauty derived from suffering and spilt blood.
I also find it remarkable that the characters have been sketched out in so much detail- but that we still don’t know who the main ones are - although it has been Lucia and Myra who are doing the best to tie everyone together. The main characters must be the one or ones who are about to do something terrible - and it is only that act who will give them the status.
posted by rongorongo at 12:05 AM on December 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
I also find it remarkable that the characters have been sketched out in so much detail- but that we still don’t know who the main ones are - although it has been Lucia and Myra who are doing the best to tie everyone together. The main characters must be the one or ones who are about to do something terrible - and it is only that act who will give them the status.
posted by rongorongo at 12:05 AM on December 3, 2022 [8 favorites]
"He is deeply resentful of Cam, knew that Cam would try to pitch to him on this trip, and wanted the opportunity to turn him down and rub it in his face.
And he's gonna kill somebody."
Oh, man, you got my attention with that!
posted by Violet Blue at 7:46 AM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
And he's gonna kill somebody."
Oh, man, you got my attention with that!
posted by Violet Blue at 7:46 AM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
Rongorongo, yes, you said it well, something I have been feeling about both seasons. It is as if the places themselves have a kind of living presence, and an interest in the visitors and staff that are on their land. And almost like they have a script waiting and all that needs to happen is that certain people, with specific desires and backstory arrive, and they then start to play out that script. Mostly for ill and tragedy, but occasionally for some kind of inner growth.
posted by nanook at 1:33 PM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by nanook at 1:33 PM on December 3, 2022 [1 favorite]
I'm wondering if Rocco being sent to the beach will have bad repercussions because, like, he's new to, and incompetent at, setting up scuba gear, and so he'll accidentally kill the folks from the season opening.
posted by Pronoiac at 3:18 AM on December 12, 2022
posted by Pronoiac at 3:18 AM on December 12, 2022
Oh, and Daphne telling Harper "Maybe you should get a trainer" seems particularly loaded given that Harper expressed interest in have kids, but they clearly aren't having sex.
This was my read too. She says she is going to show a picture of her blonde, blue-eyed trainer, but then shows the kids. I read that as: "Harper, you need to have a kid."
That the trainer is the babyfather never crossed my mind, but it's also fairly obviously the case!
posted by chavenet at 4:11 AM on January 27, 2023
This was my read too. She says she is going to show a picture of her blonde, blue-eyed trainer, but then shows the kids. I read that as: "Harper, you need to have a kid."
That the trainer is the babyfather never crossed my mind, but it's also fairly obviously the case!
posted by chavenet at 4:11 AM on January 27, 2023
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posted by Apocryphon at 11:13 PM on November 27, 2022 [6 favorites]