Arrow: Midnight City
January 29, 2015 3:54 AM - Season 3, Episode 11 - Subscribe
Lazarus Queen rises from the dead, Laurel continues to be awful at literally everything, and Felicity learns facts about helicopters.
Actual synopsis:
AV Club recap
Actual synopsis:
Roy and Diggle try to stop Laurel following in her sister's footsteps before she gets killed. Brick captures 3 city alderman and threatens to kill them if the police don't cede The Glades to him. Malcolm tells Thea that their family is being hunted and tracked down by Ra's al Ghul and they must leave town immediately. Felicity agrees to help Ray become The Atom.imdb entry
AV Club recap
I was really, really glad that Laurel was not automatically good at being the Black Canary just because she Felt So Strongly and was Full of Pain. I mean, I don't expect this stuff to be too realistic, but her like week and a half of going to the gym is NOT going to make her a superhero immediately. Laurel continues to be awful at literally everything is an excellent synopsis although for this at least I think it made the show better and not worse.
I did really enjoy Felicity (obviously) and that helicopter conversation was a DELIGHT. She is, at this point, about the only thing fun in the show for me. Everything else is both literally and figuratively dark since they all spend their time in a basement and then go out at night and attack people. I think the show used to have more levity (like Oliver and Thea's mother) and a lot of that is gone. I don't just mean stuff that's funny, I mean lightness and happiness and good times. I'm hoping that when Oliver comes back to them things perk up a little bit because this is feeling like kind of a slog now, especially compared to The Flash.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:00 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
I did really enjoy Felicity (obviously) and that helicopter conversation was a DELIGHT. She is, at this point, about the only thing fun in the show for me. Everything else is both literally and figuratively dark since they all spend their time in a basement and then go out at night and attack people. I think the show used to have more levity (like Oliver and Thea's mother) and a lot of that is gone. I don't just mean stuff that's funny, I mean lightness and happiness and good times. I'm hoping that when Oliver comes back to them things perk up a little bit because this is feeling like kind of a slog now, especially compared to The Flash.
posted by Mrs. Pterodactyl at 6:00 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
Knowing good and well Sterling City doesn't have anybody that could give Diggle that cut. You know he'd be stuck going to the Great Clips down the street from the club.
posted by cashman at 6:09 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by cashman at 6:09 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
This show suffers in our viewings because we time shift the Flash and watch them together, and right now the Flash is really enjoyable and this is kind of a slog. I'm hoping getting Oliver back to Starling City will help, but between Laurel and Roy there's not really anything going on that I'm that interested in. The flashbacks this season have been a letdown compared to seasons past, and Oliver hanging out in the cabin isn't adding much drama either. The past two episodes were basically Felicity and Ray and a lot of filler for me.
I think it will probably get better, though.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:13 AM on January 29, 2015
I think it will probably get better, though.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 6:13 AM on January 29, 2015
I think the point of Arrow is to be dark and kind of batmanesque. I actually prefer it, but I watch both it and Flash knowing that Flash is suppose to be more lighthearted then Arrow.
There's some levity in Diggle.
posted by royalsong at 6:40 AM on January 29, 2015
There's some levity in Diggle.
posted by royalsong at 6:40 AM on January 29, 2015
Lazarus Queen
(makes mental note that if for some unforeseen reason I ever need a drag name, that matter is now sorted out)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:54 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
(makes mental note that if for some unforeseen reason I ever need a drag name, that matter is now sorted out)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:54 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
For the Arrow=dark, Flash=bright, I've come to think that they're doing something similar to the 90's Batman Animated Series and Superman Animated Series. To get the 'Dark Night' aesthetic across, the animators on the Batman show started with black paper, and then only added color where necessary. So the default was black black black. For the Superman show, where Superman and Metropolis required a totally different feel, they started with sky-blue paper and then added backgrounds and animation on top of that. I feel like maybe that was something that come up in production planning for Arrow and Flash; let's make it feel like Starling City : Gotham City :: Central City : Metropolis.
posted by bartleby at 10:06 AM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by bartleby at 10:06 AM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
She is, at this point, about the only thing fun in the show for me. Everything else is both literally and figuratively dark since they all spend their time in a basement and then go out at night and attack people. I think the show used to have more levity (like Oliver and Thea's mother) and a lot of that is gone. I don't just mean stuff that's funny, I mean lightness and happiness and good times.
I pretty much would not be watching this show except for Felicity (and Diggle to some degree). I am not watching it because I lurve Oliver Queen, because most of the time he's pretty dour and unlikeable except around Felicity or on The Flash. And Laurel just sucks, and the insistence on people lying about who's dead for months on end and who can't be told who's a supserhero is ridiculous.
I was reading the Vulture review of last week's episode and was totally agreeing with this:
"I really want to like Laurel. Really, I do. Laurel should be in her own element in the courtroom. But even in this brief scene, Katie Cassidy can’t convince me that (1) Laurel is worth getting to know; or (2) that Laurel is a good lawyer.
If you’re seen as an interloper by two fan favorites like Diggle and Felicity, it’s going to be difficult to get the audience onboard with you. Also: LAUREL, TELL YOUR DAD THAT YOUR SISTER SARA IS DEAD. There’s no reasonable excuse for delaying the bad news this long."
Vulture is also keeping track of how many shirtless scenes there are and how many episodes Laurel goes without announcing her sister's death. 10 now. SHEESH. The faking of Sara was just....gack.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:00 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I pretty much would not be watching this show except for Felicity (and Diggle to some degree). I am not watching it because I lurve Oliver Queen, because most of the time he's pretty dour and unlikeable except around Felicity or on The Flash. And Laurel just sucks, and the insistence on people lying about who's dead for months on end and who can't be told who's a supserhero is ridiculous.
I was reading the Vulture review of last week's episode and was totally agreeing with this:
"I really want to like Laurel. Really, I do. Laurel should be in her own element in the courtroom. But even in this brief scene, Katie Cassidy can’t convince me that (1) Laurel is worth getting to know; or (2) that Laurel is a good lawyer.
If you’re seen as an interloper by two fan favorites like Diggle and Felicity, it’s going to be difficult to get the audience onboard with you. Also: LAUREL, TELL YOUR DAD THAT YOUR SISTER SARA IS DEAD. There’s no reasonable excuse for delaying the bad news this long."
Vulture is also keeping track of how many shirtless scenes there are and how many episodes Laurel goes without announcing her sister's death. 10 now. SHEESH. The faking of Sara was just....gack.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:00 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh god Laurel pretending to be Sara might be the worst thing anyone on the show has ever done, including the villains. That was stomach turningly awful.
The first season dynamic where she was fighting for the little guys in court and Oliver was fighting for them in the streets worked. This doesn't.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:48 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
The first season dynamic where she was fighting for the little guys in court and Oliver was fighting for them in the streets worked. This doesn't.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 11:48 AM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Finally, Diggle says what all of us were thinking:
What the hell is wrong with you, Laurel? Good thing you got your ass kicked, otherwise MORE people could have died! Now go to your room, young lady, and give me 10 training montages. And think about what you did so this doesn't happen again (spoiler alert: she'll continue being The Worst).
Watching Roy fill out physically into an actual grown man with mature thoughts and self-restraint is quite gratifying, and I love seeing Vinnie Jones bring a truly menacing bad guy character to the city.
That one scene with Merlyn and Roy... Two beautiful men whose faces were so close and passionate-looking made me all shippy inside. I actually jumped off our couch and yelled MAKE OUT OR AT LEAST RUB YOUR BUTT CHINS TOGETHER! It was a beautiful thing.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 12:18 PM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
What the hell is wrong with you, Laurel? Good thing you got your ass kicked, otherwise MORE people could have died! Now go to your room, young lady, and give me 10 training montages. And think about what you did so this doesn't happen again (spoiler alert: she'll continue being The Worst).
Watching Roy fill out physically into an actual grown man with mature thoughts and self-restraint is quite gratifying, and I love seeing Vinnie Jones bring a truly menacing bad guy character to the city.
That one scene with Merlyn and Roy... Two beautiful men whose faces were so close and passionate-looking made me all shippy inside. I actually jumped off our couch and yelled MAKE OUT OR AT LEAST RUB YOUR BUTT CHINS TOGETHER! It was a beautiful thing.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 12:18 PM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I am at this point mystified what the point is in lying to Dad Detective while telling everyone else, and it's a weird stupid plot point. I could maaaaybe buy it if it was a sneaky plan to protect Laurel's identity from ever getting out that she felt guilty about having to use on her family, but doing it because her dad has a heart condition is just nonsense. As, frankly, is everyone not seeing Merlyn around town when he makes no attempt to stealth around. Not even a baseball cap or something, just rolling through town in his giant, unsubtle limo. *And* the magic mind control drugs that seem to never show up again... if I were a villain, I'd whip those out whenever I felt like it, but I guess no one sees a use for them beyond that one incident?
At least Roy has stuff to do now, and gets to be reasonably competent, but ooof, I feel like the dropped plot threads are all over the place.
posted by tautological at 2:27 PM on January 29, 2015
At least Roy has stuff to do now, and gets to be reasonably competent, but ooof, I feel like the dropped plot threads are all over the place.
posted by tautological at 2:27 PM on January 29, 2015
I think the show used to have more levity
Well, they DID fridge two major female characters top provide more angst for the main character. I don't think you can expect much lightness from a show where the writers took "Women in Refrigerators" as a how-to guide. So very, very 90s.
posted by happyroach at 2:28 PM on January 29, 2015
Well, they DID fridge two major female characters top provide more angst for the main character. I don't think you can expect much lightness from a show where the writers took "Women in Refrigerators" as a how-to guide. So very, very 90s.
posted by happyroach at 2:28 PM on January 29, 2015
Can we talk about how Oliver is not dead? The show just kind of handwaved that away. Neither the sword wound or the fall were survivable. Are they just going to never mention that again?
And while we're on the subject, how is Malcolm alive after being stabbed in the heart and pronounced dead?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:52 PM on January 29, 2015
And while we're on the subject, how is Malcolm alive after being stabbed in the heart and pronounced dead?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:52 PM on January 29, 2015
Knowing good and well Sterling City doesn't have anybody that could give Diggle that cut. You know he'd be stuck going to the Great Clips down the street from the club.
This is a good point. Digg is apparently the only black person in all of Starling, especially since the gang stopped eating burgers all the time.
Maybe he catches a train the Central City for coffee and haircuts with Joe West
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:55 PM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is a good point. Digg is apparently the only black person in all of Starling, especially since the gang stopped eating burgers all the time.
Maybe he catches a train the Central City for coffee and haircuts with Joe West
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 2:55 PM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Can we talk about how Oliver is not dead?
I had assumed that/Merlyn coming back was a function of slightly different Magic Herbs from the ones that live in Oliver's trunk and are some sort of cure-all. They've used that as a handwavey excuse for patching people up before, and I guess we get that instead of a Lazarus Pit, since apparently Tatsu could brew up whatever it was.
(It would also explain why Ra's cares so little about killing his ninja minions in that practice session of his; if you know you can revive everybody, as long as you get to them relatively quickly, then you can always go for the kill in training. And it would give Nyssa a lot more reason to be angry with Oliver over not contacting the League in the first place re: Sara's death.)
posted by tautological at 5:09 PM on January 29, 2015
I had assumed that/Merlyn coming back was a function of slightly different Magic Herbs from the ones that live in Oliver's trunk and are some sort of cure-all. They've used that as a handwavey excuse for patching people up before, and I guess we get that instead of a Lazarus Pit, since apparently Tatsu could brew up whatever it was.
(It would also explain why Ra's cares so little about killing his ninja minions in that practice session of his; if you know you can revive everybody, as long as you get to them relatively quickly, then you can always go for the kill in training. And it would give Nyssa a lot more reason to be angry with Oliver over not contacting the League in the first place re: Sara's death.)
posted by tautological at 5:09 PM on January 29, 2015
I would watch the fuck out of Joe West and Diggle having a barber shop date.
Then maybe whiskies after, while they exchange villain stories.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 7:42 PM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Then maybe whiskies after, while they exchange villain stories.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 7:42 PM on January 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I would watch the fuck out of Joe West and Diggle having a barber shop date.
Yeah, but Joe seems to be the only black man in Central City. Maybe he can't find a decent barber either, which is why he keeps wearing that fugly beanie.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:14 PM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yeah, but Joe seems to be the only black man in Central City. Maybe he can't find a decent barber either, which is why he keeps wearing that fugly beanie.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:14 PM on January 29, 2015 [3 favorites]
Can we talk about how Oliver is not dead?
The fact that they did this with no explanation is kind of cool on the one hand (because who's going to believe whatever explanation they give?), but on the other, we have the Lazarus Pit explanation from the comics and they're deliberately holding that back and/or not using it. I'm hoping that some reason for not using the Lazarus Pits becomes clear later.
Laurel is pretty much the worst right now but I have to say Dad Lance is not supposed to be an idiot and if he doesn't figure out pretty quickly that the woman he saw on the fire escape is Laurel instead of Sara, I'm going to be annoyed. Having said that, I do like that Laurel isn't competent yet and that the show isn't holding back on saying so or showing it in the fight sequences, where she looks rough and incompetent next to Roy and Diggle.
Ray was actually heroic and badass for a normal this time around. If they want him to be Steve Jobs as hero, it was about time to show him being heroic instead of just smarmy. Roy's confrontation with Malcolm Merlyn was a delight. Also, I continue to ♥ Felicity and Diggle, who are the best things about this show in so many ways.
So there were a lot of good elements but not much came together. For me, the show's in the rough mid-season spot where things aren't building so much as layering. The plot elements are in place and need to simmer for a few episodes before we get on the downhill slope to the end of the season. This was the hard part for me of each of the two previous seasons, so I'm inclined to just accept that the next few episodes will be not so interesting on their own but will contribute to the strong endings I've come to expect from the Arrow crew.
posted by immlass at 9:32 AM on January 30, 2015
The fact that they did this with no explanation is kind of cool on the one hand (because who's going to believe whatever explanation they give?), but on the other, we have the Lazarus Pit explanation from the comics and they're deliberately holding that back and/or not using it. I'm hoping that some reason for not using the Lazarus Pits becomes clear later.
Laurel is pretty much the worst right now but I have to say Dad Lance is not supposed to be an idiot and if he doesn't figure out pretty quickly that the woman he saw on the fire escape is Laurel instead of Sara, I'm going to be annoyed. Having said that, I do like that Laurel isn't competent yet and that the show isn't holding back on saying so or showing it in the fight sequences, where she looks rough and incompetent next to Roy and Diggle.
Ray was actually heroic and badass for a normal this time around. If they want him to be Steve Jobs as hero, it was about time to show him being heroic instead of just smarmy. Roy's confrontation with Malcolm Merlyn was a delight. Also, I continue to ♥ Felicity and Diggle, who are the best things about this show in so many ways.
So there were a lot of good elements but not much came together. For me, the show's in the rough mid-season spot where things aren't building so much as layering. The plot elements are in place and need to simmer for a few episodes before we get on the downhill slope to the end of the season. This was the hard part for me of each of the two previous seasons, so I'm inclined to just accept that the next few episodes will be not so interesting on their own but will contribute to the strong endings I've come to expect from the Arrow crew.
posted by immlass at 9:32 AM on January 30, 2015
I was cringing to my wife during the entire Laurel pretending to be Sarah scene. That was JUST FREAKIN' WRONG. I feel the end result of this will be that her father finds out the truth, DOESN'T HAVE A HEART ATTACK, and then tells Laurel he never wants to speak to her again. She just needs to take her pop to the hospital waiting room and break the news there if she's so freaked out over his heart. I'm starting to feel as if Sarah Ain't Dad Laurel is as bad as Fell Off the Wagon Laurel. Not to mention, the scene in the holding cell with the henchman was just wrong from an ethical perspective.
The show happily offers up Oliver as the Arrow out right torturing people or threatening their lives to get them to confess to information, but it's done in the guise and role of the vigilante. Here, Laurel is abusing her position as an assistant DA to do the same, and that simply didn't go over well for me. It would be one thing if Laurel did it as the Black Canary, but as Laurel the Assistant DA, no. Take her bar license. Though, I loved the retort from Roy, "I trained with Oliver, you went to law school." BOOM.
I was happy to see her fights not going well because of her lack of training. I won't mind if she improves, but it'd make no sense for her to step out and be radical.
I don't think Oliver necessarily should have been dead, i.e., was brought back from death. I'd argue that he wasn't stabbed with the sword in an instantly lethal spot and when he fell, he fell only so far and was cushioned by snow. Then, the freezing weather helped at least keep him on the brink of death until he could be provided full medical treatment. After all, his buddy's story to Ra's was going to be that someone recovered Oliver and helped him back to life - which he thought would be a rational story to tell the guy who's in charge of a league of assassins. So one could speculate that Ra's won't go, "FOOL, I killed him. I totally fatally, instantly, killed him, and then I saw how far he fell, there's no way he could have survived!"
Ray Palmer. Atom. I keep hearing word that he'll get a potential spin off, but I've yet to see anything that would make me want to watch what would essentially be a merging of Arrow and Flash, with the rich vigilante from the former and the likely brightness of the latter. I dunno, he's just not different or interesting enough yet to make me want to watch show around him. However, he was a lot better this episode and if Felicity has given him the greenlight, I'll trust him.
posted by Atreides at 9:48 AM on January 30, 2015
The show happily offers up Oliver as the Arrow out right torturing people or threatening their lives to get them to confess to information, but it's done in the guise and role of the vigilante. Here, Laurel is abusing her position as an assistant DA to do the same, and that simply didn't go over well for me. It would be one thing if Laurel did it as the Black Canary, but as Laurel the Assistant DA, no. Take her bar license. Though, I loved the retort from Roy, "I trained with Oliver, you went to law school." BOOM.
I was happy to see her fights not going well because of her lack of training. I won't mind if she improves, but it'd make no sense for her to step out and be radical.
I don't think Oliver necessarily should have been dead, i.e., was brought back from death. I'd argue that he wasn't stabbed with the sword in an instantly lethal spot and when he fell, he fell only so far and was cushioned by snow. Then, the freezing weather helped at least keep him on the brink of death until he could be provided full medical treatment. After all, his buddy's story to Ra's was going to be that someone recovered Oliver and helped him back to life - which he thought would be a rational story to tell the guy who's in charge of a league of assassins. So one could speculate that Ra's won't go, "FOOL, I killed him. I totally fatally, instantly, killed him, and then I saw how far he fell, there's no way he could have survived!"
Ray Palmer. Atom. I keep hearing word that he'll get a potential spin off, but I've yet to see anything that would make me want to watch what would essentially be a merging of Arrow and Flash, with the rich vigilante from the former and the likely brightness of the latter. I dunno, he's just not different or interesting enough yet to make me want to watch show around him. However, he was a lot better this episode and if Felicity has given him the greenlight, I'll trust him.
posted by Atreides at 9:48 AM on January 30, 2015
It's weird that the Ray Palmer storyline hasn't really touched on Atom's comic book power, which is being able to change his size on the subatomic level. There was apparently a reference I missed to "dwarf star matter" (the source of the comic book Atom's size changing power) in an episode, but other than that hasn't everything just looked like a generic armor? I'd be more on board for a show if he had the size changing ability. They also already have a Supergirl show in the works for (I think unconfirmed, but very likely) shared universe; an Atom show would seem like overexpanding.
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:14 AM on January 30, 2015
posted by Bulgaroktonos at 10:14 AM on January 30, 2015
I want to say that Palmer has mentioned size shrinking on the show and the "nano chip" that Felicity fixed by replacing with a quantum processor was the key to achieving it.
posted by Atreides at 12:53 PM on January 30, 2015
posted by Atreides at 12:53 PM on January 30, 2015
Well, they DID fridge two major female characters top provide more angst for the main character.
I'm gonna disagree on characterizing either of those deaths as Fridging, assuming we're talking about mom and Sarah. Mom was a well developed character who we got to know in good and bad actions who died for a real threat, in part because of her own actions and associations. Sarah was offed somewhat abruptly but was herself a competent hero who had sacrificed of her own accord in the past. Her death was more about who she was to Oliver but it also made sense for Merlyn to target her based on her association with the Guhls. Using her rather than Joe Random League Member is more about the audience's attachment to her.
The character more egregiously Fridged on Arrow was Tommy.
posted by phearlez at 7:49 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm gonna disagree on characterizing either of those deaths as Fridging, assuming we're talking about mom and Sarah. Mom was a well developed character who we got to know in good and bad actions who died for a real threat, in part because of her own actions and associations. Sarah was offed somewhat abruptly but was herself a competent hero who had sacrificed of her own accord in the past. Her death was more about who she was to Oliver but it also made sense for Merlyn to target her based on her association with the Guhls. Using her rather than Joe Random League Member is more about the audience's attachment to her.
The character more egregiously Fridged on Arrow was Tommy.
posted by phearlez at 7:49 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Supergirl seems confirmed, but it's on CBS, so I doubt it's a shared universe. I think there were rumors based on some common producers, but I'm pretty sure the network execs nixed that idea.
I kind of get the impression that Ray's armor's size-changing ability is going to be a surprise to him, I don't recall him talking about size shrinking so much as the "dwarf star" being a really compact source of an astounding amount of energy. I'll agree that nothing in the Ray Palmer character as written so far has made me interested in watching an Atom spin-off.
I'm glad that they've allowed Roy to mature and develop - depending on how long it takes for Oliver to get back, it'd be totally plausible for Roy to don the green hood and pretend that the Arrow is still around for a few shows.
Laurel continues to be awful at literally everything
And apparently has a camera crew following her around 24/7 to capture her awfulness, since the "TV news" footage of the first failed rescue attempt was implausibly clear and vibrant for a security camera or cell footage or whatever they claimed they were showing.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:06 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
I kind of get the impression that Ray's armor's size-changing ability is going to be a surprise to him, I don't recall him talking about size shrinking so much as the "dwarf star" being a really compact source of an astounding amount of energy. I'll agree that nothing in the Ray Palmer character as written so far has made me interested in watching an Atom spin-off.
I'm glad that they've allowed Roy to mature and develop - depending on how long it takes for Oliver to get back, it'd be totally plausible for Roy to don the green hood and pretend that the Arrow is still around for a few shows.
Laurel continues to be awful at literally everything
And apparently has a camera crew following her around 24/7 to capture her awfulness, since the "TV news" footage of the first failed rescue attempt was implausibly clear and vibrant for a security camera or cell footage or whatever they claimed they were showing.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:06 PM on January 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
Man, they should just start calling the show The Increasingly Poor Decisions of Laurel Lance.
I'm on the same page as just about everyone else. Laurel getting her ass kicked was glorious, and I loved people calling her out on her idiocy.
I think the most aggravating thing about Laurel is how dumb everything is. Like it didn't occur to her that her dad would notice if Black Canary started showing up in town again? And when he does, the best solution is to impersonate Sara on the phone and in person? Her dad can't see that her body type is completely different from Sara? (Not ragging on either woman's appearance, but the difference is obvious.) Gah.
And it takes a man getting murdered in front of her for her to finally make her wonder if suiting up as the Canary was maybe not a good idea.
I also enjoyed the helicopter conversation, and wish that all Ray/Felicity interactions were like that, instead of the stalkery behavior and the Dead Fiance angst.
They still aren't giving Dig much to do, but David Ramsey continues to sell whatever tiny moments he gets.
I liked that Annoying DJ Dude turned out to be a LofA spy.
I like the actors who play Maseo and Tatsu but am beyond bored with the material they've been given to work with.
posted by creepygirl at 8:14 PM on January 30, 2015
I'm on the same page as just about everyone else. Laurel getting her ass kicked was glorious, and I loved people calling her out on her idiocy.
I think the most aggravating thing about Laurel is how dumb everything is. Like it didn't occur to her that her dad would notice if Black Canary started showing up in town again? And when he does, the best solution is to impersonate Sara on the phone and in person? Her dad can't see that her body type is completely different from Sara? (Not ragging on either woman's appearance, but the difference is obvious.) Gah.
And it takes a man getting murdered in front of her for her to finally make her wonder if suiting up as the Canary was maybe not a good idea.
I also enjoyed the helicopter conversation, and wish that all Ray/Felicity interactions were like that, instead of the stalkery behavior and the Dead Fiance angst.
They still aren't giving Dig much to do, but David Ramsey continues to sell whatever tiny moments he gets.
I liked that Annoying DJ Dude turned out to be a LofA spy.
I like the actors who play Maseo and Tatsu but am beyond bored with the material they've been given to work with.
posted by creepygirl at 8:14 PM on January 30, 2015
Sarah was offed somewhat abruptly but was herself a competent hero who had sacrificed of her own accord in the past. Her death was more about who she was to Oliver but it also made sense for Merlyn to target her based on her association with the Guhls.
I might say Sara was fridged to develop another character in the show, but if she was, it was to develop Laurel rather than Oliver.
I've said this somewhere else in one of these threads, but I'm torn on whether ditching Sara for Laurel should be a good thing (fridging is a separate matter). There's a lot of similar plot turf covered by the two Lance sisters even before you get to the single leather jacket. The thing is, Sara has been consistently better written and more interestingly plotted, and it's a shame that comic canon "requires" Laurel to be the one who survives.
Perhaps if Felicity hadn't taken up so much of the plot room that Laurel might have owned in her absence, not to mention the actress' better chemistry with Oliver (Felicity's actress has better chemistry with everybody than just about anybody else, and the Ollie/Laurel chemistry works best when it does as friends), dropping Sara for Laurel would have made more sense. As it is, Sara was more fun to watch and have around--but on the other hand, how would we all have reacted if the show had ditched Laurel? We care about Sara, but I suspect if Laurel had vanished at the beginning of S3, we wouldn't have been nearly as bothered.
Objectively there's not really room for more than two of Felicity, Laurel, and Sara given plot and budget constraints. As matters stand, I'm not sure they picked the right one to go. They need to sell Laurel a lot better (not harder, BETTER) to really make that work for me.
posted by immlass at 8:21 PM on January 30, 2015
I might say Sara was fridged to develop another character in the show, but if she was, it was to develop Laurel rather than Oliver.
I've said this somewhere else in one of these threads, but I'm torn on whether ditching Sara for Laurel should be a good thing (fridging is a separate matter). There's a lot of similar plot turf covered by the two Lance sisters even before you get to the single leather jacket. The thing is, Sara has been consistently better written and more interestingly plotted, and it's a shame that comic canon "requires" Laurel to be the one who survives.
Perhaps if Felicity hadn't taken up so much of the plot room that Laurel might have owned in her absence, not to mention the actress' better chemistry with Oliver (Felicity's actress has better chemistry with everybody than just about anybody else, and the Ollie/Laurel chemistry works best when it does as friends), dropping Sara for Laurel would have made more sense. As it is, Sara was more fun to watch and have around--but on the other hand, how would we all have reacted if the show had ditched Laurel? We care about Sara, but I suspect if Laurel had vanished at the beginning of S3, we wouldn't have been nearly as bothered.
Objectively there's not really room for more than two of Felicity, Laurel, and Sara given plot and budget constraints. As matters stand, I'm not sure they picked the right one to go. They need to sell Laurel a lot better (not harder, BETTER) to really make that work for me.
posted by immlass at 8:21 PM on January 30, 2015
Is Tatsu a wizard? I don't get it. She healed him with gauze and herbs? Wut?
I can't help but like Katie Cassidy because she was original Ruby on Supernatural and original Ruby was awesome. I hope they give her more to do than mope around soon. She's definitely capable of being a believable badass.
Having said that Thea is by far my favourite character now. She is a surprisingly believeable swordstress, and she has that delightful edge of sanity/ morally questionable survivor thing going on. She could literally do anything!! I hope to god they do something with her.
Vinnie Jones is just not doing it for me as a villain
posted by fshgrl at 9:16 PM on January 30, 2015
I can't help but like Katie Cassidy because she was original Ruby on Supernatural and original Ruby was awesome. I hope they give her more to do than mope around soon. She's definitely capable of being a believable badass.
Having said that Thea is by far my favourite character now. She is a surprisingly believeable swordstress, and she has that delightful edge of sanity/ morally questionable survivor thing going on. She could literally do anything!! I hope to god they do something with her.
Vinnie Jones is just not doing it for me as a villain
posted by fshgrl at 9:16 PM on January 30, 2015
I think my quibble with calling it Fridging is that I don't think a character who has had a change to grow and achieve for herself and whose death fits into an actual narritive can quite qualify. Sarah being offed may have been a poor choice of continuing actors and plot lines but it's served to do more than just make Ollie broody. It's not just using her as a throwaway lever. But that's really getting in deep on parsing the definition of a pop culture term, so I'll just say that I wish they hadn't done it. Offing Laurel and using that to lever Sarah out of the League and driving plot that way would have been far more welcome to me.
and it's a shame that comic canon "requires" Laurel to be the one who survives.
Given that Black Canary was originally DINAH Lance I don't think you can even excuse it that way.
posted by phearlez at 11:13 AM on January 31, 2015
and it's a shame that comic canon "requires" Laurel to be the one who survives.
Given that Black Canary was originally DINAH Lance I don't think you can even excuse it that way.
posted by phearlez at 11:13 AM on January 31, 2015
They had to kill Sarah because she was a morally pliable character and the whole show is about Oliver's journey away from that.
I mean, she was a cool character but she was broken. She just adopted the groupthink of any situation she found herself in or aligned herself with anyone she slept with within 20 minutes. Ollie was (is) like that during the flashbacks, instant foxhole trauma-bonded buddies with everyone he meets. But he's had to move on, look at the bigger picture, regain his internal moral compass and free will. He stopped letting people use him and manipulate him. That's like the whole story of the show. Sarah couldn't do it, she tried and failed. So she had to die to advance the story and as a kinda cautionary tale.
posted by fshgrl at 12:24 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, she was a cool character but she was broken. She just adopted the groupthink of any situation she found herself in or aligned herself with anyone she slept with within 20 minutes. Ollie was (is) like that during the flashbacks, instant foxhole trauma-bonded buddies with everyone he meets. But he's had to move on, look at the bigger picture, regain his internal moral compass and free will. He stopped letting people use him and manipulate him. That's like the whole story of the show. Sarah couldn't do it, she tried and failed. So she had to die to advance the story and as a kinda cautionary tale.
posted by fshgrl at 12:24 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Given that Black Canary was originally DINAH Lance I don't think you can even excuse it that way.
Laurel's full name is Dinah Laurel Lance. Her dad called her that once when he was exasperated with her.
He stopped letting people use him and manipulate him. That's like the whole story of the show. Sarah couldn't do it, she tried and failed. So she had to die to advance the story and as a kinda cautionary tale.
The show has allowed many characters to fail and be given second and third and nth chances, so I don't see any reason why Sara's failures are the only ones that should be final and insurmountable and an automatic death sentence from a storytelling point of view.
posted by creepygirl at 2:21 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Laurel's full name is Dinah Laurel Lance. Her dad called her that once when he was exasperated with her.
He stopped letting people use him and manipulate him. That's like the whole story of the show. Sarah couldn't do it, she tried and failed. So she had to die to advance the story and as a kinda cautionary tale.
The show has allowed many characters to fail and be given second and third and nth chances, so I don't see any reason why Sara's failures are the only ones that should be final and insurmountable and an automatic death sentence from a storytelling point of view.
posted by creepygirl at 2:21 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Let's just wait for the end of the season:
Producer 1: "So for the angsty part of the climax, which character are we going to kill off? Diggle?"
Producer 2: "The one black man in the cast? I don't think so. We have two women, axe one if them."
Producer 1: "We aren't touching Lauren. She's canon and stuff."
Producer 2: "Dude, nobody likes her."
Producer 1: "They WILL LIKE her. I'll MAKE them like her."
Producer 2: "So that leaves..."
The two if them look meaningfully across the room at Emily Bett Rickards...
posted by happyroach at 3:31 PM on January 31, 2015
Producer 1: "So for the angsty part of the climax, which character are we going to kill off? Diggle?"
Producer 2: "The one black man in the cast? I don't think so. We have two women, axe one if them."
Producer 1: "We aren't touching Lauren. She's canon and stuff."
Producer 2: "Dude, nobody likes her."
Producer 1: "They WILL LIKE her. I'll MAKE them like her."
Producer 2: "So that leaves..."
The two if them look meaningfully across the room at Emily Bett Rickards...
posted by happyroach at 3:31 PM on January 31, 2015
I don't see any reason why Sara's failures are the only ones that should be final and insurmountable and an automatic death sentence from a storytelling point of view.
Well she went back to being an assassin permanently. Once they did that I knew she was going to die because it's a comic book and the bad guys die. Eventually well see how Oliver escaped Wallers clutches and there'll be a ham handed parallel situation except he makes a different choice and gets to live!
They better not touch Felicity! I'm still mad about Tommy.
posted by fshgrl at 5:33 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well she went back to being an assassin permanently. Once they did that I knew she was going to die because it's a comic book and the bad guys die. Eventually well see how Oliver escaped Wallers clutches and there'll be a ham handed parallel situation except he makes a different choice and gets to live!
They better not touch Felicity! I'm still mad about Tommy.
posted by fshgrl at 5:33 PM on January 31, 2015 [1 favorite]
I found both sides of the why Sarah died argument compelling. But in the end, I feel confident it was less a philosophical matter than an economical one. The team was getting too big. Plus, they wanted to get Laurel as Black Canary. So they needed both an instigating factor for Laurel and Sarah out of the way.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:23 AM on February 1, 2015
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:23 AM on February 1, 2015
She was destined to die from the start I'm pretty sure.
posted by fshgrl at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2015
posted by fshgrl at 4:56 PM on February 1, 2015
She was destined to die from the start I'm pretty sure.
That wouldn't surprise me, but Felicity wasn't originally planned to be a big part of the show and she's the heart of team Arrow now. What the showrunners planned isn't as important to me as a viewer as how the show plays out on screen. Laurel's plots have been consistently weak to terrible, including things that have happened since Sara was killed. While the showrunners have pulled it out before, they're not doing a great job here, perhaps in part because the "morally flexible" charge that was a sticking point for Sara is also a big problem for Laurel as a DA (she's unethical as all get-out in addition to her vigilante sideline). To sell Laurel as a better Canary, she needs to be better at it or potentially better at it than Sara. If the writers had handled Laurel better up to now, that might be the case. Sadly, Laurel has been consistently the weakest-written link, which makes her a hard sell.
posted by immlass at 9:08 AM on February 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
That wouldn't surprise me, but Felicity wasn't originally planned to be a big part of the show and she's the heart of team Arrow now. What the showrunners planned isn't as important to me as a viewer as how the show plays out on screen. Laurel's plots have been consistently weak to terrible, including things that have happened since Sara was killed. While the showrunners have pulled it out before, they're not doing a great job here, perhaps in part because the "morally flexible" charge that was a sticking point for Sara is also a big problem for Laurel as a DA (she's unethical as all get-out in addition to her vigilante sideline). To sell Laurel as a better Canary, she needs to be better at it or potentially better at it than Sara. If the writers had handled Laurel better up to now, that might be the case. Sadly, Laurel has been consistently the weakest-written link, which makes her a hard sell.
posted by immlass at 9:08 AM on February 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
The law stuff is so badly done that I am not sure the writer's room understands that she's unethical.
Laurel's full name is Dinah Laurel Lance. Her dad called her that once when he was exasperated with her.
Yeah, they're doing Black-Canary-as-the-daughter; it was DC's run around the whole "what the hell year is this" problem they had as time went on. We originally had a BC who wasn't born with the Lance name and later they fiddled about and said oh no, this one is the daughter who grew up around mom supering.
But the point is they're already willing to diverge from traditional canon that I don't think you can claim anything "requires" it other than a slavish attention in one area while disregarding it entirely in a dozen others.
posted by phearlez at 11:20 AM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Laurel's full name is Dinah Laurel Lance. Her dad called her that once when he was exasperated with her.
Yeah, they're doing Black-Canary-as-the-daughter; it was DC's run around the whole "what the hell year is this" problem they had as time went on. We originally had a BC who wasn't born with the Lance name and later they fiddled about and said oh no, this one is the daughter who grew up around mom supering.
But the point is they're already willing to diverge from traditional canon that I don't think you can claim anything "requires" it other than a slavish attention in one area while disregarding it entirely in a dozen others.
posted by phearlez at 11:20 AM on February 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
Neither the sword wound or the fall were survivable.
No, I'm sticking with the "Oliver was only mostly dead" theory, and Tatsu's healing being non-supernatural. Although that does suggest a certain sloppiness on Ra's's part which is at odds with his reputation.
I think part of the problem in this episode was just way too many separate plot threads. I count four separate plots here: the main one (which itself encompasses Team Arrow vs. Brick & co., the Palmer stuff, and Laurel pretending to be Sara), present-day Oliver recovering, flashbacks with Oliver in Hong Kong and Malcolm & Thea leaving or not leaving Starling City.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:15 PM on February 3, 2015
No, I'm sticking with the "Oliver was only mostly dead" theory, and Tatsu's healing being non-supernatural. Although that does suggest a certain sloppiness on Ra's's part which is at odds with his reputation.
I think part of the problem in this episode was just way too many separate plot threads. I count four separate plots here: the main one (which itself encompasses Team Arrow vs. Brick & co., the Palmer stuff, and Laurel pretending to be Sara), present-day Oliver recovering, flashbacks with Oliver in Hong Kong and Malcolm & Thea leaving or not leaving Starling City.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:15 PM on February 3, 2015
The law stuff is so badly done that I am not sure the writer's room understands that she's unethical.
Even if you throw out all of the DA position abuse, Laurel has offered a veritable buffet of unethical behavior: torturing a witness to Sara's murder while he's in a hospital bed, violating the anonymity of AA by stalking and attacking a fellow AA member's abusive boyfriend, then breaking a promise to her dad not to go out vigilanteing again, and of course, lying to her dad about Sara's death while blabbing about it to everyone else, including Thea (for no damn reason). And that's just so far this season.
The weak-ass attempt to justify the last with "he has a heart condition" is utterly nonsensical given Laurel's simultaneous decision to go out on the streets as a vigilante. Her father outright TOLD her he couldn't bear it if something happened to her, and she's still doing it. If she doesn't know that there's a chance she could be seriously injured or killed as a vigilante, breaking her dad's heart, then she's either dumb as a post or delusional. Neither of which makes her awesome superhero material from my point of view.
While not as bad as some of the other stuff listed above, I think the decision to go out vigilanteing based on training a few hours after work for a couple months is morally questionable. She's a liability when more competent crime fighters like Roy have to spend time and energy rescuing her.
When I try to make sense of all of the behavior listed above, the best explanation I can come up with is that Laurel is a selfish, self-centered person who does what she wants and then thinks of justifications for whatever she wants to do. Telling her dad Sara was dead again would be icky and painful, so she doesn't do it and trots out the "heart condition" excuse. Vigilanteing makes her feel important and powerful, so her dad's heart condition suddenly doesn't matter and it's all about saving the city.
If this arc was what was planned from the start, and the intention was for Laurel to come off as anything other than awful, then there was either bad planning, bad writing, or both.
posted by creepygirl at 5:31 PM on February 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Even if you throw out all of the DA position abuse, Laurel has offered a veritable buffet of unethical behavior: torturing a witness to Sara's murder while he's in a hospital bed, violating the anonymity of AA by stalking and attacking a fellow AA member's abusive boyfriend, then breaking a promise to her dad not to go out vigilanteing again, and of course, lying to her dad about Sara's death while blabbing about it to everyone else, including Thea (for no damn reason). And that's just so far this season.
The weak-ass attempt to justify the last with "he has a heart condition" is utterly nonsensical given Laurel's simultaneous decision to go out on the streets as a vigilante. Her father outright TOLD her he couldn't bear it if something happened to her, and she's still doing it. If she doesn't know that there's a chance she could be seriously injured or killed as a vigilante, breaking her dad's heart, then she's either dumb as a post or delusional. Neither of which makes her awesome superhero material from my point of view.
While not as bad as some of the other stuff listed above, I think the decision to go out vigilanteing based on training a few hours after work for a couple months is morally questionable. She's a liability when more competent crime fighters like Roy have to spend time and energy rescuing her.
When I try to make sense of all of the behavior listed above, the best explanation I can come up with is that Laurel is a selfish, self-centered person who does what she wants and then thinks of justifications for whatever she wants to do. Telling her dad Sara was dead again would be icky and painful, so she doesn't do it and trots out the "heart condition" excuse. Vigilanteing makes her feel important and powerful, so her dad's heart condition suddenly doesn't matter and it's all about saving the city.
If this arc was what was planned from the start, and the intention was for Laurel to come off as anything other than awful, then there was either bad planning, bad writing, or both.
posted by creepygirl at 5:31 PM on February 4, 2015 [3 favorites]
Did everyone notice that Thea was reading a Brad Meltzer novel?
In one of the first episodes where Palmer's secret project is revealed, there's a line about how he's adapting OMAC armor. So who knows what this Atom's powers will be in the end (though I hope it's shrinking!)
posted by sevenyearlurk at 7:36 PM on February 4, 2015
In one of the first episodes where Palmer's secret project is revealed, there's a line about how he's adapting OMAC armor. So who knows what this Atom's powers will be in the end (though I hope it's shrinking!)
posted by sevenyearlurk at 7:36 PM on February 4, 2015
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Comics Canary is a master of unarmed combat. Show Laurel has a very long way to go.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:36 AM on January 29, 2015 [1 favorite]