Supernatural: Thin Lizzie
November 5, 2015 8:46 AM - Season 11, Episode 5 - Subscribe

Sam and Dean investigate a series of murders at a local B&B that also happens to be Lizzie Borden's old home. When a man tells them he saw a little girl around the B&B around the time of the murders, the brothers realize Amara may be responsible.

The broader discussion of being soulless in this episode really appealed to me. From what Sam went through, to how Jenna and Sydney reacted vs how Len reacted, I can't help but wonder how I would react. Also, Sam mentioned that Dean knows what it's like too, does he mean when Dean was a demon? Demons still have a soul, don't they? They're just evil souls, right?
posted by numaner (8 comments total)
 
The answer, as usual, is it depends on what the plot demands. :)

Amara can feed on demons and souls. When Castiel was seeking power a few seasons back he seemed to be able to absorb demons as well. They are souls twisted by the torture of Hell into something unrecognizable. But presumably still souls.

It was interesting to see different responses to being soulless. Not everyone instantly turns to a cold blooded killer.

I've seen discussion in other places about whether Dean is fully back to himself this season. Could he possibly be soulless? He is a little colder than usual, but I tend to think that's just a response to his experiences with the Mark.
posted by 2ht at 9:22 AM on November 5, 2015


My impression is that demons do have souls (albeit dark and twisted)...I think that's pretty much *all* they are actually, inside whatever host "meat-suit" they're in at the time (since unlike Dean last season, most don't remain in their original bodies).

When Sam was soulless, it actually seemed to disturb some of the creatures he ran into when they peered inside.
posted by Pryde at 12:39 PM on November 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


It was interesting to see the different reactions from Len and Sydney. Guess the reaction might depend on how damaged your sould already is by your life experiences.

Len was a really fun character.
posted by cfoxhi at 3:54 PM on November 5, 2015


Carrying on from last week's episode, this one also felt like a throwback in some ways with the brothers heading out to a small town to investigate a MOTW. It ended up connecting back to the Darkness stuff, but there were stretches when this felt like the kind of stuff that used to be the show's bread n' butter. (There was even a Ghost Facers shout out! Wonder if we'll be seeing them again soon.)

I felt bad for Len, and his fate seemed really sad and unfair. He killed the babysitter to save the brothers, and even if he didn't feel remorse he hadn't done anything (yet) to merit life imprisonment or the chair. I found myself thinking that if they could lock him up where he couldn't act on his worst instincts, maybe his soul could be restored and he could get on with life as a normal person again.

I get the impression that having no soul mostly frees you to act on things you've been repressing. Sam (who is a very caring, charitable guy but has a frustrated martyr side) became a total sociopath, reveling in finally acting selfishly. The babysitter became a killer, but she still had this desire to save the kid from his parents. (Why would somebody with no soul care about giving a kid a better life? She had those instincts as a normal person, and losing her soul made her act on them even if deep down she didn't care about the kid anymore either.) Len was presumably a rather innocent, sweet guy, and having no soul left him adrift but he had no raging, suppressed id to act on. But he did seem upset to not feel remorse for killing the babysitter, which is sort of confusing. Doesn't it take some goodness to worry that you're not good?

Did anybody else get a little creeped out when the babysitter compared touching Amara's hand to chocolate cake and orgasms? I mean, it was obviously some kind of magical bliss thing and we could see it on her face, but her saying that kind of crossed a line for me. If Len had described meeting Amara like that it would have sounded SO gross and wrong. Putting the line in the mouth of the babysitter made it sound less creepy, but I was still surprised to hear it on the show. It didn't ruin the episode, but it did briefly stop the story cold for me while I went, "Wait, WTF, show?".
posted by Ursula Hitler at 7:31 PM on November 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


I enjoyed the episode, but man. I already knew, on an intellectual level, that the whole show is filmed in Vancouver, and that the writers treat literally every location in the US as being A Small-to-Medium-Sized Midwestern Town regardless of what spot on the map the writers hit with a dart that week. But it still always bothers me to have it set someplace near where I live or that I've actually spent time in. Let me tell ya: real-life Fall River is nothing like A Small-to-Medium-Sized Midwestern Town. So that ended up being kind of distracting for me, especially every time they talked to that very Midwestern-sounding cop. I really do wish they'd make at least a token effort to differentiate one place from another, especially when, as in this episode, there's a specific reason for that particular choice of location, rather than the usual darts-at-a-map method.

But he did seem upset to not feel remorse for killing the babysitter, which is sort of confusing. Doesn't it take some goodness to worry that you're not good?

I think you can be intellectually upset ("I am aware that this thing was supposed to occur, and it didn't, this is potentially problematic") without being emotionally invested either way, which was sort of the read I got on Len - it fit with his whole detached attitude about his entire life. In other words, you apparently don't have to be good, you just need to understand the concept of goodness.
posted by mstokes650 at 9:40 PM on November 5, 2015


I think you can be intellectually upset ("I am aware that this thing was supposed to occur, and it didn't, this is potentially problematic") without being emotionally invested either way, which was sort of the read I got on Len - it fit with his whole detached attitude about his entire life. In other words, you apparently don't have to be good, you just need to understand the concept of goodness.

I related this back to what it was like when I was in a deep depression. Things would happen or I would do thing and I would intellectually know it was good or what I needed to do to be good but I wouldn't feel it.

I know I should feel sad about what happen to you and will go through the motions of what I would normally do to comfort or help but really I don't care.

Not a pleasant place to be in. This was actually one of the things that made me realize just how bad it had gotten.
posted by Jalliah at 7:57 AM on November 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


Quotes

Amara: I'm going to help you, Sydney.
Sydney: You think I need help? Well, I -- maybe you’re right. Tonight, anyway.
Amara: [holds one of Sydney's hands in hers]
Sydney: How did -- how did you do that? Oh, I feel like ecstasy-orgasm chocolate cake! You’re an angel!
Amara: Do I look like a whiney-wing suck up?

Sam: Um, a couple was ax murdered in Fall Rivers, Massachusetts at ... wait for it ... the Lizzie Borden Bed and Breakfast museum.
Dean: A B&B and a museum. Yeah. That doesn’t sound like a tourist trap at all.
Sam: I mean the thing is the inn was Lizzie Borden’s actual house. In 1892 she hacked up her mom and stepdad there. Or allegedly hacked them up. She was acquitted and spent the rest of her days in Fall Rivers hounded and persecuted by the townspeople.
Dean: So you’re thinking revenge killing.
Sam: [shrugs]
Dean: Why now? It was probably some psycho fan who’s seen too many slasher flicks.
Sam: Could be, but the inn was locked up. No signs of entry or exit. Half a dozen guests. None of whom saw or heard any intruders.
Dean: Well, maybe the murderer was actually competent. Wait a minute. I know what this is. This has something to do with your freaky fetish for serial killers.
Sam: It's not a fetish.
Dean: You've always wanted to see that house!
Sam: Dean, two people are dead. In Lizzie Borden’s home. We got no leads on Amara. I say we check this out. [closes his laptop and rises.] Besides, the entire Borden clan are buried in Fall Rivers. Including Lizzie.

Dean: What is that smell?
Sam: I think it’s this. It’s like a lavender toilet water. [squeezes the perfume sprayer.]
Dean: Bottled toilet water? Why do you keep spraying it?
Sam: I just wanted to see of the squeezy thing worked.
Dean: Wow.
Sam: I think it was supposed to be a perfume or something.
Dean: Alright. I think I’m gonna go check the rest of the inn 'cause now I’ve got grandma all over me.

Len: [babbling endlessly in the backseat of the Impala] Kitten videos, chicken and waffles, eucalyptus scent. I don’t care for it anymore. Used to swoon for dark, curly hair. Now, not so much. Do you think I had a stroke? Or maybe it’s a brain tumour. What’s really freaky is all the stuff that used to make my skin crawl now seems ... eh.
Dean: [pulls the car up to the address given by Sydney, turns off the engine, silently mouths, “Shut up the hell up,” to Sam]
Len: I couldn’t shake a guy’s hand before. God, that wetness. Now I could lick the sweat off a stranger's...
Dean: Okay!
Len: Yeah. Any body part. I’m serious. I feel weird, man.

Len: First of all, I ripped my hand out of the cuff.
Dean: Well, you saved us, Len.
Len: Yeah, that’s not why I mauled myself. I wanted to see if I could do it. It hurt. Like a mother. But it didn’t wig me out. At all. I picked up my thumb like it was a mini-hot dog.
Dean: I'm not gonna lie. That’s worrisome.

Trivia

Jared Padalecki has the same birthday as Lizzie Borden.

Sam uses the alias "Detective Collins" to which costar Misha Collins responded on Twitter. Collins tweeted: @mishacollins: Hey @jarpad, don't u feel like a total f-ing badass when u call yourself agent "Collins?" Don't u just feel so GodDamn cool all the sudden? Jared replied by saying he felt like he was "overcompensating for something".

There is actually a Lizzie Borden Bed and Breakfast in the house where the Borden axe murders took place. The house used for the exterior shots is not the real Lizzie Borden Bed and Breakfast. It does not even resemble it. But a photo of the real house can be seen on the back of a pamphlet that Sam picks up in the lobby.

Sam and Dean use the aliases Agents Collins and Gabriel. Phil Collins and Peter Gabriel were members of the band Genesis.

Sydney comes out of a bar called Molly's Hatchet Room. The band, Molly Hatchet, did a cover of Thin Lizzy's "The Boys Are Back In Town", and "Thin Lizzie" is the name of this episode.
posted by orange swan at 4:47 PM on December 18, 2021


Interesting mention of "Ghostfacers" in the cold open. It could indicate that Ed or Harry or both are still carrying on with their little endeavour, or it could be a reference to their past work.

The victims seem unusually poignant in this episode. Amara took three people who were already living miserable lives -- Len, Sydney, Jeordi -- and made things so much worse for them.
posted by orange swan at 4:49 PM on December 18, 2021


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