Doctor Who: The Caretaker
September 27, 2014 1:31 PM - Season 8, Episode 6 - Subscribe
Coal Hill School has a new caretaker and an unwelcome visitor.
Gareth Roberts' contribution to Season 8 puts The Doctor in the middle of Clara's real life, which leads to some friction with Danny.
The only thing standing between us and a Coal Hill School series now is the fact that I made it up last week, and no one has any intention of making such a thing. This episode confirms that it could be fun, though.
Also, it seems that Missy has an assistant. And is God.
Gareth Roberts' contribution to Season 8 puts The Doctor in the middle of Clara's real life, which leads to some friction with Danny.
The only thing standing between us and a Coal Hill School series now is the fact that I made it up last week, and no one has any intention of making such a thing. This episode confirms that it could be fun, though.
Also, it seems that Missy has an assistant. And is God.
Also, still no Ian or Barbara reference -- unless "I had a teacher just like you" line was a reference to Barbara, which I could live with.
posted by bettafish at 3:35 PM on September 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by bettafish at 3:35 PM on September 27, 2014 [2 favorites]
So I'm sure that Clara is going keep that promise. Yup, absolutely.
But Danny asks a good question. Why did Clara lie about The Doctor? It's not that big a secret considering The Doctor had a fan club (granted most of them are dead).
I'm having trouble with The Doctor leading the alien away from a big, empty building into a big building only occasionally empty. Just pop the Tardis onto a different floor in the alien's building. Or least cut The Doctor's line about needing a big, empty building. That just emphasized the ridiculousness.
Other than that and The Doctor's terrible treatment of Danny, I liked it.
I'm on-board with the promised land thing. I have every confidence it will pay off. Well, not every confidence but enough. Mostly. Sort of.
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 5:54 PM on September 27, 2014
But Danny asks a good question. Why did Clara lie about The Doctor? It's not that big a secret considering The Doctor had a fan club (granted most of them are dead).
I'm having trouble with The Doctor leading the alien away from a big, empty building into a big building only occasionally empty. Just pop the Tardis onto a different floor in the alien's building. Or least cut The Doctor's line about needing a big, empty building. That just emphasized the ridiculousness.
Other than that and The Doctor's terrible treatment of Danny, I liked it.
I'm on-board with the promised land thing. I have every confidence it will pay off. Well, not every confidence but enough. Mostly. Sort of.
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 5:54 PM on September 27, 2014
But Danny asks a good question. Why did Clara lie about The Doctor? It's not that big a secret considering The Doctor had a fan club (granted most of them are dead)
General knowledge of the existence of aliens, etc., was wiped out in some plot convolution in the first Matt Smith season (I think). I don't think anyone has a memory of stuff like the various extraterrestrial invasions from the Davies years.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:05 PM on September 27, 2014
General knowledge of the existence of aliens, etc., was wiped out in some plot convolution in the first Matt Smith season (I think). I don't think anyone has a memory of stuff like the various extraterrestrial invasions from the Davies years.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:05 PM on September 27, 2014
Perhaps a bit contrived, but as a vehicle for introducing getting the three of them together, an enjoyable one. Had they managed to keep the cameras horizontal during all the action scenes, I might have said very enjoyable.
I really like the way in this series the production team is set-dressing just outside the TARDIS doors. Of course it only works if you park in a confined area, but it's a great touch.
Again, Danny tells us nothing about his background (when cancelling a plan with Clara). Not flagged up at all, but highly suspicious.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 8:06 PM on September 27, 2014
I really like the way in this series the production team is set-dressing just outside the TARDIS doors. Of course it only works if you park in a confined area, but it's a great touch.
Again, Danny tells us nothing about his background (when cancelling a plan with Clara). Not flagged up at all, but highly suspicious.
posted by Juso No Thankyou at 8:06 PM on September 27, 2014
I really liked this episode. Fake Matt Smith was very funny.
Mickey, Rory, and Danny are all great individually, but it's a little weird for there to be a pattern of the male companion being a sadsack schlub while the female companion is hypercompetent.
At io9, Charlie Jane Anders picks up on something that I missed:
Of course, this episode plays completely differently for long-time Doctor Who fans than for casual viewers — because anyone who's watched the show for a long time will pick up on the Doctor's reference to "Artron energy" early on. The Doctor keeps insisting it's not his fault the Skovox Blitzer is here, but he also says it's probably attracted by all the Artron energy in London. And there's really only one source of Artron energy that we know of: the Doctor himself. So he's lying, and this is all his fault. In fact, that may be why the Doctor is being even more arrogant than usual and boasting that he's saving the planet — because he's actually cleaning up his own mess.
posted by painquale at 4:34 AM on September 28, 2014 [12 favorites]
Mickey, Rory, and Danny are all great individually, but it's a little weird for there to be a pattern of the male companion being a sadsack schlub while the female companion is hypercompetent.
At io9, Charlie Jane Anders picks up on something that I missed:
Of course, this episode plays completely differently for long-time Doctor Who fans than for casual viewers — because anyone who's watched the show for a long time will pick up on the Doctor's reference to "Artron energy" early on. The Doctor keeps insisting it's not his fault the Skovox Blitzer is here, but he also says it's probably attracted by all the Artron energy in London. And there's really only one source of Artron energy that we know of: the Doctor himself. So he's lying, and this is all his fault. In fact, that may be why the Doctor is being even more arrogant than usual and boasting that he's saving the planet — because he's actually cleaning up his own mess.
posted by painquale at 4:34 AM on September 28, 2014 [12 favorites]
I really liked this one. I also quite liked the AV Club's review of it.
posted by Kitteh at 5:18 AM on September 28, 2014
posted by Kitteh at 5:18 AM on September 28, 2014
I liked most of this one a lot, but really didn't like the Doctor's insistence that Danny must be a P.E. teacher. I've seen white people visiting a professional or academic environment express disbelief that a person of color is a professor, a university president, a library director, etc., and sometimes even state outright that s/he didn't earn whatever position s/he is in (a belief which seems to be grounded in some alternate universe where positions of authority are available for the asking).
I can believe the Doctor's behavior comes down to his recently (and frequently) expressed contempt for the military, but his attitude seems a bit weird there when you think of his former closeness with UNIT and his use of them even up to The Sontaran Strategem and The Day of the Doctor. It's also hard not to see the situation as what it looks like on its surface--a white caretaker expressing contempt for a black teacher, belittling his intellect and accomplishments for no good reason.
Maybe something happened offscreen that really soured the Doctor on the military in general. Or maybe the screenwriters weren't aware of how the scene would read in certain quarters (or, alternately, thought they were but were sadly mistaken).
In any case I think they should have thought of some other bristly interaction the Doctor and Danny could have, perhaps with the Doctor unintentionally insulting Danny and Danny unintentionally insulting the Doctor as well.
posted by johnofjack at 6:18 AM on September 28, 2014 [12 favorites]
I can believe the Doctor's behavior comes down to his recently (and frequently) expressed contempt for the military, but his attitude seems a bit weird there when you think of his former closeness with UNIT and his use of them even up to The Sontaran Strategem and The Day of the Doctor. It's also hard not to see the situation as what it looks like on its surface--a white caretaker expressing contempt for a black teacher, belittling his intellect and accomplishments for no good reason.
Maybe something happened offscreen that really soured the Doctor on the military in general. Or maybe the screenwriters weren't aware of how the scene would read in certain quarters (or, alternately, thought they were but were sadly mistaken).
In any case I think they should have thought of some other bristly interaction the Doctor and Danny could have, perhaps with the Doctor unintentionally insulting Danny and Danny unintentionally insulting the Doctor as well.
posted by johnofjack at 6:18 AM on September 28, 2014 [12 favorites]
I liked most of this one a lot, but really didn't like the Doctor's insistence that Danny must be a P.E. teacher.
Yeah, that had some pretty uncomfortable racist undertones to it. Otherwise it was the best episode of this season or at least the first one that I liked.
posted by octothorpe at 7:17 AM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
Yeah, that had some pretty uncomfortable racist undertones to it. Otherwise it was the best episode of this season or at least the first one that I liked.
posted by octothorpe at 7:17 AM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
I too feel like the scenes between The Doctor and Danny had some undertones, and I can actually accept that they were unintentional; for all I know, this script was written before the part of Danny was even cast. I hope so.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:29 AM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:29 AM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I'd suggest the situation is quite different in the UK, especially in London, from the United States. It would be absurd to suggest that the UK isn't a racist country, but it appears that race works differently here. For example, Clara and Danny might appear mismatched as a couple because one is a Guardian reader and the other an ex-squaddie but ethnically various couples are commonplace in London and have been for decades. There aren't very many things in this area that I feel I can state categorically, but the fact that the PE teacher jibe isn't to do with Danny's ethnic background, but his military one is one of them.
posted by Grangousier at 8:49 AM on September 28, 2014 [10 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 8:49 AM on September 28, 2014 [10 favorites]
The undertone is that Danny is a soldier and the Doctor really dislikes soldiers (for some as yet totally unrevealed reason). In the Doctor's mind a soldier could not possibly teach a "smart" subject like math and is only qualified to teach P.E. The script did not need to have the Doctor repeat the P.E. insult at every chance, but S8 has not been subtle about things like Vastra and Jenny being married and this rengerated Doctor being clueless about human niceties.
posted by plastic_animals at 8:50 AM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by plastic_animals at 8:50 AM on September 28, 2014 [2 favorites]
Maybe something happened offscreen that really soured the Doctor on the military in general.
He was a soldier himself, in a military, during a centuries long war in which his own side became so increasingly brutal and destructive that it forced him to personally destroy his entire race. That would do it, right?
posted by misfish at 10:47 AM on September 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
He was a soldier himself, in a military, during a centuries long war in which his own side became so increasingly brutal and destructive that it forced him to personally destroy his entire race. That would do it, right?
posted by misfish at 10:47 AM on September 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
Plus he was also stuck on Trenzalore for 900 years fighting skirmishes and a re-start of the Time War. It is not clear to me that his sudden souring on soldiers is a result of either, however.
posted by plastic_animals at 11:01 AM on September 28, 2014
posted by plastic_animals at 11:01 AM on September 28, 2014
I am torn on this one. I'm glad Danny is finally in on the secret (and Courtney, too), but I'm tired of the Doctor being not just abrasive, but actively mean.
posted by ocherdraco at 12:21 PM on September 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
posted by ocherdraco at 12:21 PM on September 28, 2014 [4 favorites]
The Doctor's antipathy toward soldiery is almost surely going to be addressed in future episodes. It's the most prominent theme of this season. There's Journey Blue, the toy soldier without a gun, Danny's mysterious past, the Blitzer in this episode that was defeated with its obedience to authority, etc.
This makes sense as a thematic through-line for the season. The Doctor now acknowledges his past as the War Doctor, but he now knows that he committed genocide. He's become hostile toward people who kill in war because he's thrilled to have discovered that he's not one of them.
More importantly, I think this is a natural place for the show to go now that they have an older actor again. Capaldi's Doctor is back to acting like the First Doctor: imperious and lordly, classist and arrogant, supercilious and rude. To him, soldiers represent unthinking grunts. The First Doctor got away with this attitude. He pushed his companions around, and their complaints were just whines. Modern Doctors, on the other hand, exhibit extreme haughtiness only in their off moments. They're otherwise empathetic and emo. Narratively, this change is because of the Time War. Extra-narratively, it's because overt paternalism and authoritarianism are much more unpalatable now than they were before.
Modern Doctor Who is less tolerant of that quintessentially '60s attitude, so I think we are seeing the development of a season revolving around the question: what if the First Doctor had modern companions? What if they called him on his elitist bullshit?
posted by painquale at 2:23 PM on September 28, 2014 [6 favorites]
This makes sense as a thematic through-line for the season. The Doctor now acknowledges his past as the War Doctor, but he now knows that he committed genocide. He's become hostile toward people who kill in war because he's thrilled to have discovered that he's not one of them.
More importantly, I think this is a natural place for the show to go now that they have an older actor again. Capaldi's Doctor is back to acting like the First Doctor: imperious and lordly, classist and arrogant, supercilious and rude. To him, soldiers represent unthinking grunts. The First Doctor got away with this attitude. He pushed his companions around, and their complaints were just whines. Modern Doctors, on the other hand, exhibit extreme haughtiness only in their off moments. They're otherwise empathetic and emo. Narratively, this change is because of the Time War. Extra-narratively, it's because overt paternalism and authoritarianism are much more unpalatable now than they were before.
Modern Doctor Who is less tolerant of that quintessentially '60s attitude, so I think we are seeing the development of a season revolving around the question: what if the First Doctor had modern companions? What if they called him on his elitist bullshit?
posted by painquale at 2:23 PM on September 28, 2014 [6 favorites]
Also: Clara and Danny were very much teachers in this episode. They did a good job acting like teachers, I thought. I liked that Clara asked whether the kids would be safe, and it was great to see Clara in what felt like a real job that mattered to her. But the main audience for this show is kids, and I kept wondering how kids would react to the sudden realization that the Mary Sue character they identify with is supposed to be their English teacher. It aged her a little --- which is for the better, in my opinion --- but I wonder if younger viewers will be as willing to treat her as an audience surrogate. A lot of this episode was about what teachers do outside of class, and it's weird to see your teacher at the supermarket over the summer, let alone canoodling on the couch or flying away in time machines.
posted by painquale at 2:41 PM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by painquale at 2:41 PM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
The Doctor's antipathy toward soldiery is almost surely going to be addressed in future episodes. It's the most prominent theme of this season. There's Journey Blue, the toy soldier without a gun, Danny's mysterious past, the Blitzer in this episode that was defeated with its obedience to authority, etc.
I just watched the first two Series 8 episodes again and I think you're right. I didn't notice any of his hostility towards soldiers in Deep Breath but in Into the Dalek there's his refusal to take Journey Blue with him, as you mention, and also this earlier in the episode:
"You don't like soldiers much, do you?"
"You don't need to be liked. You've got all the guns."
Tying it back to The Day of the Doctor makes a lot of sense, especially since we did see that Twelve was one of the Doctors involved. At the time I think everyone was just surprised and excited that Capaldi was introduced early, but if Twelve was there then obviously there's the opportunity to have a story where he tries--again--to deal with his guilt.
posted by johnofjack at 5:22 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I just watched the first two Series 8 episodes again and I think you're right. I didn't notice any of his hostility towards soldiers in Deep Breath but in Into the Dalek there's his refusal to take Journey Blue with him, as you mention, and also this earlier in the episode:
"You don't like soldiers much, do you?"
"You don't need to be liked. You've got all the guns."
Tying it back to The Day of the Doctor makes a lot of sense, especially since we did see that Twelve was one of the Doctors involved. At the time I think everyone was just surprised and excited that Capaldi was introduced early, but if Twelve was there then obviously there's the opportunity to have a story where he tries--again--to deal with his guilt.
posted by johnofjack at 5:22 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
I agree that there's some discomfort in watching the Doctor rail the new black cast member. I'd like to give the producers the benefit of the doubt that this is just a collision of the Doctor's new attitude and the happenstance of the actor's race. It's nice to see some diverse casting again, and it's interesting to see how far they will push the abrasiveness of this Doctor (will he be more Six, or more Nine?). Still, it looks tone deaf in the same way that the constant bad-mouthing of Clara's appearance seems like it's trying to be funny and failing.
I think it all works, in the end, because of the acting talent involved, and because Clara is a very real character this season. Given a Perpegilliam Brown and a bloviator in a bad suit, it gets dire awfully fast. But I'm willing to cut this team some slack and see where the rope leads. Moffat tends to overdo everything, and this is still recognizably his show. But it's a different flavor of Moffat that the preciousness of Matt Smith and the wheels-within-wheels plotsiness of the endless mysteries of the Silence/River/cracks/Trenzalore/etc.
posted by rikschell at 5:43 PM on September 28, 2014
I think it all works, in the end, because of the acting talent involved, and because Clara is a very real character this season. Given a Perpegilliam Brown and a bloviator in a bad suit, it gets dire awfully fast. But I'm willing to cut this team some slack and see where the rope leads. Moffat tends to overdo everything, and this is still recognizably his show. But it's a different flavor of Moffat that the preciousness of Matt Smith and the wheels-within-wheels plotsiness of the endless mysteries of the Silence/River/cracks/Trenzalore/etc.
posted by rikschell at 5:43 PM on September 28, 2014
I like the Doctor as disapproving Space Dad.
As a side note, the BBC is doing a much better job with the previews. I had stopped watching them years ago because they kept giving away twists or key plot points. This season they've been intriguing without giving away much story beyond the opening credits.
posted by Gary at 6:34 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
As a side note, the BBC is doing a much better job with the previews. I had stopped watching them years ago because they kept giving away twists or key plot points. This season they've been intriguing without giving away much story beyond the opening credits.
posted by Gary at 6:34 PM on September 28, 2014 [1 favorite]
And just for those of us who get off on casting easter eggs: Toby, from In the Loop was Missy's secretary in the final scene.
posted by Cold Lurkey at 7:43 PM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by Cold Lurkey at 7:43 PM on September 28, 2014 [3 favorites]
I don't see the Doctor ragging on Danny as racist. As viewers we see an old white man talking down to a black guy and think "oooh racist undertones" but that's only because we're products of our time and society. The Doctor as a character is a product of his life; he's making a judgement but not one based on race. He dismisses Danny as a PE teacher because he was once a soldier and in the Doctor's mind, soldiers can't think for themselves. Once Danny proves him wrong (unlike the Dalek he faced in Enter the Dalek who lived up to his assumptions) the Doctor warms to him. If the Doctor were being racist, this would never have happened.
As others have mentioned, though, it is weird he hates on soldiers so much when as recently as his 11th regeneration he was talking about what a good man the Alastair Lethbridge-Stewart was. Maybe he see's the Brigadier as an exception to the rule? Maybe his remembering of what happened during the Time War has changed his point of view. Or his 300 odd years spent defending the town of Christmas from various evil alien soldiers played some part in his changing POV too. The point is, it's out-of-character, but we may yet see an explanation.
Finally, what's the going theory on who Missy is? I'm still in the "Missy is short for Mistress which is the feminine version of Master" camp, but the Rani is also plausible. After all, Moffat has said that the Master and the Rani will never return while he's in charge, and just like the Doctor, Moffat lies...
posted by Effigy2000 at 9:23 PM on September 28, 2014
As others have mentioned, though, it is weird he hates on soldiers so much when as recently as his 11th regeneration he was talking about what a good man the Alastair Lethbridge-Stewart was. Maybe he see's the Brigadier as an exception to the rule? Maybe his remembering of what happened during the Time War has changed his point of view. Or his 300 odd years spent defending the town of Christmas from various evil alien soldiers played some part in his changing POV too. The point is, it's out-of-character, but we may yet see an explanation.
Finally, what's the going theory on who Missy is? I'm still in the "Missy is short for Mistress which is the feminine version of Master" camp, but the Rani is also plausible. After all, Moffat has said that the Master and the Rani will never return while he's in charge, and just like the Doctor, Moffat lies...
posted by Effigy2000 at 9:23 PM on September 28, 2014
I can see the inadvertant racist undertones, sure, although I didn't pick up on them at a time. I love that Danny gets to call out the Doctor on his attitude: yet again, the Doctor is wrong, and quite badly wrong. Theres now a theme stretching from the heist episode of characters pointing out that Clara's trust in the Doctor may well be misplaced. This is interesting. Is the Doctor going to have to get Clara in serious trouble before he realises the problem with what he is doing?
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:00 AM on September 29, 2014
posted by Cannon Fodder at 12:00 AM on September 29, 2014
Reading between the lines of the Wikipedia entry for the next episode, I suspect that that's where it happens. And I'm not sure it happens to Clara (partly because that would be easier). If it gets too intense, I might avoid internet discussion of the programme altogether for a while.
posted by Grangousier at 2:19 AM on September 29, 2014
posted by Grangousier at 2:19 AM on September 29, 2014
Anyone else reckon that one of the astronauts glimpsed in the preview was a grown-up Courtney, inspired by her Tardis trip to go into space herself? That would be a cool tie-in.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:00 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by EndsOfInvention at 5:00 AM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
No, but it did occur to me that with Danny's and Courtney's introduction to the TARDIS, we now have a set of characters (the Doctor, two teachers, and a student) that parallels the original TARDIS crew of the Doctor, Barbara, Ian, and Susan.
posted by ocherdraco at 6:47 AM on September 29, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by ocherdraco at 6:47 AM on September 29, 2014 [5 favorites]
No, but it did occur to me that with Danny's and Courtney's introduction to the TARDIS, we now have a set of characters (the Doctor, two teachers, and a student) that parallels the original TARDIS crew of the Doctor, Barbara, Ian, and Susan.
That also occurred to me, especially with all the focus given to Courtney this episode; it almost felt like we were being given a sneak peak of a future companion (as with Donna or Clara).
I could also see Courtney being the replacement for Clara when Jenna Louise Coleman decides to leave the show; with the pseudo-romantic tension between Doctor and companion having been done to death in the new series (and particularly ill suited to Capaldi's older, crankier Doctor), I feel like a younger companion, playing up the teacher/pupil relationship, would be an interesting direction for this Doctor to go in. It would almost feel like Mr Peabody and Sherman (for better or worse).
Granted, this would open up potential for more of the probably-unintentional-but-still-uncomfortable racial subtext that we saw in the Doctor's scenes with Danny. But if handled well I think it would be an interesting dynamic for the show.
posted by DiscountDeity at 6:57 AM on September 29, 2014 [5 favorites]
That also occurred to me, especially with all the focus given to Courtney this episode; it almost felt like we were being given a sneak peak of a future companion (as with Donna or Clara).
I could also see Courtney being the replacement for Clara when Jenna Louise Coleman decides to leave the show; with the pseudo-romantic tension between Doctor and companion having been done to death in the new series (and particularly ill suited to Capaldi's older, crankier Doctor), I feel like a younger companion, playing up the teacher/pupil relationship, would be an interesting direction for this Doctor to go in. It would almost feel like Mr Peabody and Sherman (for better or worse).
Granted, this would open up potential for more of the probably-unintentional-but-still-uncomfortable racial subtext that we saw in the Doctor's scenes with Danny. But if handled well I think it would be an interesting dynamic for the show.
posted by DiscountDeity at 6:57 AM on September 29, 2014 [5 favorites]
This has been mentioned elsewhere online, but I haven't seen it here and I think it enriches the episode a bit. From io9's recap:
[T]his episode plays completely differently for long-time Doctor Who fans than for casual viewers — because anyone who's watched the show for a long time will pick up on the Doctor's reference to "Artron energy" early on. The Doctor keeps insisting it's not his fault the Skovox Blitzer is here, but he also says it's probably attracted by all the Artron energy in London. And there's really only one source of Artron energy that we know of: the Doctor himself.posted by Ian A.T. at 7:35 AM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
Is there a pattern to the people who we've seen going into Heaven? If the Doctor really was responsible for this week's evil robot, then perhaps someone's collecting people for whose deaths the Doctor is responsible? Personally, I'm hoping it's a new arc with new characters, rather than revisiting an old villain. Seeing Addison as a slightly creepy receptionist was good fun, too; I hope he sticks around.
...probably-unintentional-but-still-uncomfortable racial subtext that we saw in the Doctor's scenes with Danny.
I'm willing to accept that this is just me being stupid, but I'm really struggling to see this. This Doctor has been an arsehole to basically everyone he's met, strongly dislikes soldiers in particular, and feels weirdly possessive of Clara. I haven't watched it back, but I don't remember the Doctor saying or implying anything to Danny that wasn't about those. It was all totally consistent with their characters, insofar as Doctor Who ever is.
I get that seeing a white guy being so rude to a black guy can make people a bit twitchy, but I don't see a way to avoid it here without either: (a) having Danny be the one person in the universe so far that the Doctor is inexplicably nice to, which would be bizarre given their characters; or (b) making Danny white. I don't even see an argument that the writers condoned the Doctor's behaviour, given Danny's angry "officer" speech in the TARDIS, the Doctor's weak reply, and Clara's troubled look. We're pretty obviously supposed to agree with Danny here.
As a side note, there's definitely an argument to be made that the Doctor's possessiveness of Clara is a bit messed up. The combination of constant put-downs and romantic jealousy is hard to stomach, and the Doctor's right to decide whether Danny is "good enough" for Clara isn't really questioned.
posted by metaBugs at 8:28 AM on September 29, 2014
...probably-unintentional-but-still-uncomfortable racial subtext that we saw in the Doctor's scenes with Danny.
I'm willing to accept that this is just me being stupid, but I'm really struggling to see this. This Doctor has been an arsehole to basically everyone he's met, strongly dislikes soldiers in particular, and feels weirdly possessive of Clara. I haven't watched it back, but I don't remember the Doctor saying or implying anything to Danny that wasn't about those. It was all totally consistent with their characters, insofar as Doctor Who ever is.
I get that seeing a white guy being so rude to a black guy can make people a bit twitchy, but I don't see a way to avoid it here without either: (a) having Danny be the one person in the universe so far that the Doctor is inexplicably nice to, which would be bizarre given their characters; or (b) making Danny white. I don't even see an argument that the writers condoned the Doctor's behaviour, given Danny's angry "officer" speech in the TARDIS, the Doctor's weak reply, and Clara's troubled look. We're pretty obviously supposed to agree with Danny here.
As a side note, there's definitely an argument to be made that the Doctor's possessiveness of Clara is a bit messed up. The combination of constant put-downs and romantic jealousy is hard to stomach, and the Doctor's right to decide whether Danny is "good enough" for Clara isn't really questioned.
posted by metaBugs at 8:28 AM on September 29, 2014
I'd be happy to see Courtney as a companion--she's already been in three episodes, the Doctor likes it that she's a disruptive influence, and the teacher/student dynamic could be interesting.
I'd agree that the Doctor acting as arbiter of who's worthy of Clara's attention was presumptuous and paternalistic, and I'm baffled why Danny and Clara understand it and seem willing to accept it. Clara can take care of herself.
On the plus side, Danny did seem to deal well with discovering that both aliens and time travel exist.
posted by johnofjack at 8:47 AM on September 29, 2014
I'd agree that the Doctor acting as arbiter of who's worthy of Clara's attention was presumptuous and paternalistic, and I'm baffled why Danny and Clara understand it and seem willing to accept it. Clara can take care of herself.
On the plus side, Danny did seem to deal well with discovering that both aliens and time travel exist.
posted by johnofjack at 8:47 AM on September 29, 2014
Is there a pattern to the people who we've seen going into Heaven?
I don't think so. At one point it seemed it might have been those who sacrificed themselves for a greater good (assuming the half-robot dude from "Deep Breath" did indeed jump, rather than get pushed), but now I see no real pattern other than people dying in proximity to the Doctor (or perhaps as an indirect consequence of the Doctor's actions). The dialog in the last episode's epilogue (suggesting that "Promised Land", "Heaven", and "Afterlife" are all interchangeable synonyms for...whatever it is) sort of made it sound like it's a pretty universal thing...or at least meant to seem that way to the (apparently) newly deceased.
This Doctor has been an arsehole to basically everyone he's met, strongly dislikes soldiers in particular, and feels weirdly possessive of Clara. I haven't watched it back, but I don't remember the Doctor saying or implying anything to Danny that wasn't about those. It was all totally consistent with their characters, insofar as Doctor Who ever is.
I agree; as I said, I feel the subtext is unintentional. But it can get uncomfortable when the Doctor, for whatever reasons, is doing things that superficially resemble real-life racism. It's not so much a critique of what the writers are doing as of the society that their work needs to exist in; if racism were no longer A Thing, these scenes wouldn't read as problematic to me, it's just a matter of social and cultural context, if that makes sense.
As a side note, there's definitely an argument to be made that the Doctor's possessiveness of Clara is a bit messed up.
Agreed. But I suspect that this is part of a larger arc that has yet to pay off. The line in "Time Heist" about Clara being good at making excuses for the Doctor was suggestive of abusive relationships, and I doubt they'd open that can of worms without some larger context in mind. At this point it's kind of an elephant in the room that will need to be addressed by season's end (much like the obvious irony of the former-soldier Doctor having a strong prejudice against soldiers).
posted by DiscountDeity at 9:25 AM on September 29, 2014
I don't think so. At one point it seemed it might have been those who sacrificed themselves for a greater good (assuming the half-robot dude from "Deep Breath" did indeed jump, rather than get pushed), but now I see no real pattern other than people dying in proximity to the Doctor (or perhaps as an indirect consequence of the Doctor's actions). The dialog in the last episode's epilogue (suggesting that "Promised Land", "Heaven", and "Afterlife" are all interchangeable synonyms for...whatever it is) sort of made it sound like it's a pretty universal thing...or at least meant to seem that way to the (apparently) newly deceased.
This Doctor has been an arsehole to basically everyone he's met, strongly dislikes soldiers in particular, and feels weirdly possessive of Clara. I haven't watched it back, but I don't remember the Doctor saying or implying anything to Danny that wasn't about those. It was all totally consistent with their characters, insofar as Doctor Who ever is.
I agree; as I said, I feel the subtext is unintentional. But it can get uncomfortable when the Doctor, for whatever reasons, is doing things that superficially resemble real-life racism. It's not so much a critique of what the writers are doing as of the society that their work needs to exist in; if racism were no longer A Thing, these scenes wouldn't read as problematic to me, it's just a matter of social and cultural context, if that makes sense.
As a side note, there's definitely an argument to be made that the Doctor's possessiveness of Clara is a bit messed up.
Agreed. But I suspect that this is part of a larger arc that has yet to pay off. The line in "Time Heist" about Clara being good at making excuses for the Doctor was suggestive of abusive relationships, and I doubt they'd open that can of worms without some larger context in mind. At this point it's kind of an elephant in the room that will need to be addressed by season's end (much like the obvious irony of the former-soldier Doctor having a strong prejudice against soldiers).
posted by DiscountDeity at 9:25 AM on September 29, 2014
I've been wondering whether The Doctor's antipathy to Danny might not be a kind of shadow-projection thing, as they are actually very similar in a lot of ways.
Also, the Time Lords, and their Academy were depicted in the 70s as a sort of cosmic Oxbridge college. Obviously Oxbridge is a repository of huge quantities of privilege, but at the same time, although it is a finishing school for a certain kind of posho, and Oxford's PPE course churns out world-class bullshitters, there is a stratum of student who don't come from upper class backgrounds, but got there through astonishingly hard work, dragging an enormous Imposter Syndrome behind them a lot of the time. Perhaps the Doctor was that kind of student . After all, it tends to be the Non-Commissioned Officers who shout a lot.
posted by Grangousier at 9:56 AM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also, the Time Lords, and their Academy were depicted in the 70s as a sort of cosmic Oxbridge college. Obviously Oxbridge is a repository of huge quantities of privilege, but at the same time, although it is a finishing school for a certain kind of posho, and Oxford's PPE course churns out world-class bullshitters, there is a stratum of student who don't come from upper class backgrounds, but got there through astonishingly hard work, dragging an enormous Imposter Syndrome behind them a lot of the time. Perhaps the Doctor was that kind of student . After all, it tends to be the Non-Commissioned Officers who shout a lot.
posted by Grangousier at 9:56 AM on September 29, 2014 [2 favorites]
There is definitely a larger arc going on that we, the audience, can't yet tie together. In addition to the Doctor being a colossal jerk and being egregiously wrong in nearly every story so far, he lied to Clara about not recognizing the name Pink and not connecting Danny to Orson. There's also the exchange where the Doctor asks Clara why he keeps her around and she replies something like "because you'd have to develop a conscience of your own" -echoing what he said about Clara being his "carer" in 'Into the Dalek'.
posted by plastic_animals at 10:05 AM on September 29, 2014
posted by plastic_animals at 10:05 AM on September 29, 2014
Which is a neat little trick of the language: Clara is the caregiver, and in this episode the Doctor is the caretaker...
posted by Ian A.T. at 10:19 AM on September 29, 2014 [9 favorites]
posted by Ian A.T. at 10:19 AM on September 29, 2014 [9 favorites]
I enjoyed the episode and liked how Pink was the only person to catch on to the crazy devices that the Doctor was distributing about the grounds. As a soldier, he obviously would have been trained to be in account of his surroundings. The crazy flip over the robot killer at the end was kind of too over the top, but I enjoyed Pink in his role. What was also nice was that he kind of served back to Clara the "I can't do this because of X, and I won't tell you X," way of getting out of engagements.
I didn't really like the immediate jump to "He's an officer!" that Pink made when in the TARDIS. Likewise, when he questions Clara, "Why didn't you tell me?!" Because, well, he probably would have dumped her if she up and said, "Oh, by the way, I often travel through time and space with an alien Time Lord, who's over 2,000 years old, and used to be a nice young guy who would remind you of our drama teacher at work, and our spaceship/time traveling device is shaped like an old fashion police box!"
And yah, any promise made is immediately targeted for breaking. SO IT GOES.
There was something more about the Doctor's behavior, outside of the ridiculous soldier/PE bit that I thought was a bit more refreshing than recently. Perhaps I'm just growing more use to him or perhaps Capaldi is still tweaking his Doctor. I dunno which.
posted by Atreides at 10:56 AM on September 29, 2014
I didn't really like the immediate jump to "He's an officer!" that Pink made when in the TARDIS. Likewise, when he questions Clara, "Why didn't you tell me?!" Because, well, he probably would have dumped her if she up and said, "Oh, by the way, I often travel through time and space with an alien Time Lord, who's over 2,000 years old, and used to be a nice young guy who would remind you of our drama teacher at work, and our spaceship/time traveling device is shaped like an old fashion police box!"
And yah, any promise made is immediately targeted for breaking. SO IT GOES.
There was something more about the Doctor's behavior, outside of the ridiculous soldier/PE bit that I thought was a bit more refreshing than recently. Perhaps I'm just growing more use to him or perhaps Capaldi is still tweaking his Doctor. I dunno which.
posted by Atreides at 10:56 AM on September 29, 2014
"But it can get uncomfortable when the Doctor, for whatever reasons, is doing things that superficially resemble real-life racism. It's not so much a critique of what the writers are doing as of the society that their work needs to exist in; if racism were no longer A Thing, these scenes wouldn't read as problematic to me, it's just a matter of social and cultural context, if that makes sense."
posted by DiscountDeity at 3:25 AM on September 30
It makes total sense. I said as much earlier. However, fiction (especially science fiction) has always been about what isn't than what is. The Doctor (assuming he was a real person) grew up in a world where racism is no longer a thing. He's since gone on to visit hundreds of thousands of worlds and met countless alien races and apart from the Daleks and maybe the Cybermen, doesn't hate any of them. He doesn't consider one species (even his own) above any others. He values intelligence, abhors violence, and admires curiosity.
The Doctor is an ideal, presented on television in a science fiction show, one which we can hopefully all aspire too.
posted by Effigy2000 at 3:11 PM on September 29, 2014
posted by DiscountDeity at 3:25 AM on September 30
It makes total sense. I said as much earlier. However, fiction (especially science fiction) has always been about what isn't than what is. The Doctor (assuming he was a real person) grew up in a world where racism is no longer a thing. He's since gone on to visit hundreds of thousands of worlds and met countless alien races and apart from the Daleks and maybe the Cybermen, doesn't hate any of them. He doesn't consider one species (even his own) above any others. He values intelligence, abhors violence, and admires curiosity.
The Doctor is an ideal, presented on television in a science fiction show, one which we can hopefully all aspire too.
posted by Effigy2000 at 3:11 PM on September 29, 2014
Effigy2000: "I don't see the Doctor ragging on Danny as racist. As viewers we see an old white man talking down to a black guy and think "oooh racist undertones" but that's only because we're products of our time and society. The Doctor as a character is a product of his life; he's making a judgement but not one based on race."
I'm really not following your argument here. Yes, we as the audience are products of our time and society, but so are the show and the people who write it. It would be absurd to argue that a character who claims Clara Oswald and Strax look alike would care about Danny's skin color, but that's not the relevant context here. The relevant context is that in the past 9 years of the show (or 51, depending on how you count), there have been exactly three recurring non-white characters of any importance. The Doctor, so far consistently played by a white male, has treated every single one of them with casual dismissiveness or even unearned contempt. Compare Martha's treatment with Rose/Donna/Amy's, or Mickey and Danny's with Rory's, and a disturbing picture emerges.
Danny's treatment is an improvement over Mickey or Martha's in that we're clearly meant to be siding with him this time, as opposed to the way we were encouraged to laugh at Mickey or cut the Doctor some slack for missing Rose. But this was not a trend that needed to be brought back to be subverted.
On preview: yes, the Doctor is an ideal. That's why it's so upsetting when Our Hero consistently gives the recurring black characters the short end of the stick, regardless of in-universe explanations.
Grangousier: "Also, the Time Lords, and their Academy were depicted in the 70s as a sort of cosmic Oxbridge college. Obviously Oxbridge is a repository of huge quantities of privilege, but at the same time, although it is a finishing school for a certain kind of posho, and Oxford's PPE course churns out world-class bullshitters, there is a stratum of student who don't come from upper class backgrounds, but got there through astonishingly hard work, dragging an enormous Imposter Syndrome behind them a lot of the time. Perhaps the Doctor was that kind of student."
Speaking of in-universe explanations, this was also my take. Just two episodes ago we found out that the young proto-Doctor was meant for or expected to become part of some sort of soldier caste, not the Time Lords. However he then ended up at the Academy, he had a rough time of it (implied in the new series, outright stated in the classic era), eventually ran away, and then came back to fight in the Time War. Why exactly he's so sensitive to the idea of soldiers now remains to be made clear. But I did wonder watching his and Danny's exchanges whether he was angrier about being challenged by one of the grunts, or by being taken for a "posho". Probably both.
posted by bettafish at 3:50 PM on September 29, 2014 [4 favorites]
I'm really not following your argument here. Yes, we as the audience are products of our time and society, but so are the show and the people who write it. It would be absurd to argue that a character who claims Clara Oswald and Strax look alike would care about Danny's skin color, but that's not the relevant context here. The relevant context is that in the past 9 years of the show (or 51, depending on how you count), there have been exactly three recurring non-white characters of any importance. The Doctor, so far consistently played by a white male, has treated every single one of them with casual dismissiveness or even unearned contempt. Compare Martha's treatment with Rose/Donna/Amy's, or Mickey and Danny's with Rory's, and a disturbing picture emerges.
Danny's treatment is an improvement over Mickey or Martha's in that we're clearly meant to be siding with him this time, as opposed to the way we were encouraged to laugh at Mickey or cut the Doctor some slack for missing Rose. But this was not a trend that needed to be brought back to be subverted.
On preview: yes, the Doctor is an ideal. That's why it's so upsetting when Our Hero consistently gives the recurring black characters the short end of the stick, regardless of in-universe explanations.
Grangousier: "Also, the Time Lords, and their Academy were depicted in the 70s as a sort of cosmic Oxbridge college. Obviously Oxbridge is a repository of huge quantities of privilege, but at the same time, although it is a finishing school for a certain kind of posho, and Oxford's PPE course churns out world-class bullshitters, there is a stratum of student who don't come from upper class backgrounds, but got there through astonishingly hard work, dragging an enormous Imposter Syndrome behind them a lot of the time. Perhaps the Doctor was that kind of student."
Speaking of in-universe explanations, this was also my take. Just two episodes ago we found out that the young proto-Doctor was meant for or expected to become part of some sort of soldier caste, not the Time Lords. However he then ended up at the Academy, he had a rough time of it (implied in the new series, outright stated in the classic era), eventually ran away, and then came back to fight in the Time War. Why exactly he's so sensitive to the idea of soldiers now remains to be made clear. But I did wonder watching his and Danny's exchanges whether he was angrier about being challenged by one of the grunts, or by being taken for a "posho". Probably both.
posted by bettafish at 3:50 PM on September 29, 2014 [4 favorites]
But it can get uncomfortable when the Doctor, for whatever reasons, is doing things that superficially resemble real-life racism. It's not so much a critique of what the writers are doing as of the society that their work needs to exist in; if racism were no longer A Thing, these scenes wouldn't read as problematic to me, it's just a matter of social and cultural context, if that makes sense.
Well, OK, but if you're going to read racism into every instance of a white guy being rude to a black guy, what's the solution? Never have conflict between characters of different races, whether by having them break character or by ensuring that they never meet? By setting the bar at "it's possible for me to imagine that race is involved" rather than "he said something that seemed racist", it seems like you'd massively limit the kinds of relationships and interactions that you can show.
(As an aside, I'm intrigued to know what you thought of the relationship between Greg House and Foreman, if you watched the early years of that show. A strong power dynamic and lots of insulting and demeaning behaviour, but alongside white characters who were treated exactly the same. This might be a bit too much of a derail though, so no worries if you're not inclined to get into it)
I can't speak to bettafish's point because my memory of the relevant seasons is that the doctor was enamoured with Martha from the get-go and consistently treated her well, and poked plenty of fun at Rory at the start before Rory, like Micky, ended up growing into a respected (and decidedly soldier-like!) character. His ribbing of Rory was gentler, but that Doctor was much more gentle with *everyone* than either Ecclestone or Capaldi. Mind you, it's at least a couple of years since I've watched those seasons so my recollection might simply be wrong.
posted by metaBugs at 4:30 PM on September 29, 2014
Well, OK, but if you're going to read racism into every instance of a white guy being rude to a black guy, what's the solution? Never have conflict between characters of different races, whether by having them break character or by ensuring that they never meet? By setting the bar at "it's possible for me to imagine that race is involved" rather than "he said something that seemed racist", it seems like you'd massively limit the kinds of relationships and interactions that you can show.
(As an aside, I'm intrigued to know what you thought of the relationship between Greg House and Foreman, if you watched the early years of that show. A strong power dynamic and lots of insulting and demeaning behaviour, but alongside white characters who were treated exactly the same. This might be a bit too much of a derail though, so no worries if you're not inclined to get into it)
I can't speak to bettafish's point because my memory of the relevant seasons is that the doctor was enamoured with Martha from the get-go and consistently treated her well, and poked plenty of fun at Rory at the start before Rory, like Micky, ended up growing into a respected (and decidedly soldier-like!) character. His ribbing of Rory was gentler, but that Doctor was much more gentle with *everyone* than either Ecclestone or Capaldi. Mind you, it's at least a couple of years since I've watched those seasons so my recollection might simply be wrong.
posted by metaBugs at 4:30 PM on September 29, 2014
"I can't speak to bettafish's point because my memory of the relevant seasons is that the doctor was enamoured with Martha from the get-go and consistently treated her well, and poked plenty of fun at Rory at the start before Rory, like Micky, ended up growing into a respected (and decidedly soldier-like!) character. His ribbing of Rory was gentler, but that Doctor was much more gentle with *everyone* than either Ecclestone or Capaldi. Mind you, it's at least a couple of years since I've watched those seasons so my recollection might simply be wrong."
The Doctor did like Martha a great deal, but he also made her work a lot harder to earn her place on the TARDIS than any other lead companion to date (including Donna, who in The Runaway Bride was his first "Rose rebound," killing that excuse) and frequently compared her unfavorably to her predecessor right to her face. She literally had to work twice as hard to be considered just as good, and although they did part on decent terms she called him out on it as she left.
It's true that Eccleston's Doctor was harsher than Smith's all around, but he was downright nasty to "Mickey the idiot" and didn't let up long after he'd proven his mettle during the Slitheen situation (compare to Jack, who almost destroyed humanity one episode and is a fully integrated TARDIS crew member by the beginning of the next). And it wasn't Eccleston's era but Tennant's in which Mickey was repeatedly compared to an animal (K-9, and then Arthur the horse).
Again, there are in-universe justifications for all of these (namely that the Doctor, as much as we love him, is an insensitive, self-absorbed jerk who plays favorites), but that doesn't really matter beside the message that's being sent -- no matter how unintentionally. The way to solve this issue isn't to have everyone making nice all the time, but to have more major characters who aren't white and interact with the Doctor in different ways (or have the Doctor not be white!) Also, when writing characters in conflict, to be mindful not to play into real-life racist dynamics, like johnofjack mentioned about white people being skeptical of black people's intellectual achievements.
posted by bettafish at 5:12 PM on September 29, 2014 [8 favorites]
The Doctor did like Martha a great deal, but he also made her work a lot harder to earn her place on the TARDIS than any other lead companion to date (including Donna, who in The Runaway Bride was his first "Rose rebound," killing that excuse) and frequently compared her unfavorably to her predecessor right to her face. She literally had to work twice as hard to be considered just as good, and although they did part on decent terms she called him out on it as she left.
It's true that Eccleston's Doctor was harsher than Smith's all around, but he was downright nasty to "Mickey the idiot" and didn't let up long after he'd proven his mettle during the Slitheen situation (compare to Jack, who almost destroyed humanity one episode and is a fully integrated TARDIS crew member by the beginning of the next). And it wasn't Eccleston's era but Tennant's in which Mickey was repeatedly compared to an animal (K-9, and then Arthur the horse).
Again, there are in-universe justifications for all of these (namely that the Doctor, as much as we love him, is an insensitive, self-absorbed jerk who plays favorites), but that doesn't really matter beside the message that's being sent -- no matter how unintentionally. The way to solve this issue isn't to have everyone making nice all the time, but to have more major characters who aren't white and interact with the Doctor in different ways (or have the Doctor not be white!) Also, when writing characters in conflict, to be mindful not to play into real-life racist dynamics, like johnofjack mentioned about white people being skeptical of black people's intellectual achievements.
posted by bettafish at 5:12 PM on September 29, 2014 [8 favorites]
I should add that without having crunched the numbers I do get the impression that the casting people are trying to add more background diversity with extras/minor characters than they have previously, and that Danny himself is a great character who's been very well-fleshed out after only four episodes. It's just that the whole "P.E. teacher" schtick leaves a bad aftertaste, especially in the context of Mickey and Martha, just like the Doctor's persistent cutting down of Clara's appearance is a discordant off note in an otherwise complex and fascinating relationship between two complex and fascinating characters.
posted by bettafish at 5:35 PM on September 29, 2014
posted by bettafish at 5:35 PM on September 29, 2014
his former closeness with UNIT
To be fair, Three was regularly contemptuous of the shoot-first attitude of the military a lot of the time. Even taking all of the commentary here and elsewhere on why Twelve might feel that way now, there is some historical context for him not liking soldiers. (UNIT is technically an Intelligence Taskforce, even though it has weaponry. The Doctor was a scientific advisor to UNIT.)
I thought the episode was okay, but the soap opera triangle, which was not a love triangle, did not appeal to me and is the part of the modern series that appeals least to me as a classic Who fan. Exploration of the modern companion relationship is broadly interesting, but I'm meh about it on an emotional level. I did find myself thinking about Three and the departure of Jo Grant, where the paternally romantic, but never sexual, relationship between Jo and her Space Dad was encapsulated so nicely in a couple of minutes with almost no dialog at the end of the serial when Three departs her impromptu engagement party in Bessie and drives away, alone and a little sad. That packed more punch for me than any of the potential revelations coming out of this episode/arc are likely to (for reasons including the control freaky behavior of both the Doctor and Danny).
posted by immlass at 8:03 PM on September 29, 2014
To be fair, Three was regularly contemptuous of the shoot-first attitude of the military a lot of the time. Even taking all of the commentary here and elsewhere on why Twelve might feel that way now, there is some historical context for him not liking soldiers. (UNIT is technically an Intelligence Taskforce, even though it has weaponry. The Doctor was a scientific advisor to UNIT.)
I thought the episode was okay, but the soap opera triangle, which was not a love triangle, did not appeal to me and is the part of the modern series that appeals least to me as a classic Who fan. Exploration of the modern companion relationship is broadly interesting, but I'm meh about it on an emotional level. I did find myself thinking about Three and the departure of Jo Grant, where the paternally romantic, but never sexual, relationship between Jo and her Space Dad was encapsulated so nicely in a couple of minutes with almost no dialog at the end of the serial when Three departs her impromptu engagement party in Bessie and drives away, alone and a little sad. That packed more punch for me than any of the potential revelations coming out of this episode/arc are likely to (for reasons including the control freaky behavior of both the Doctor and Danny).
posted by immlass at 8:03 PM on September 29, 2014
Speaking of Three and Jo Grant, this photo from Katy Manning's recent visit to Cardiff has been making the rounds.
posted by plastic_animals at 8:15 PM on September 29, 2014 [5 favorites]
posted by plastic_animals at 8:15 PM on September 29, 2014 [5 favorites]
For some reason—weird P.E. business notwithstanding—this one was the first episode in which I really thought of Capaldi as the Doctor instead of "the new guy." I don't know if it's just that I've achieved sufficient exposure to him, if Capaldi's properly found his way into the role, or if the script felt familiar (being by the guy who wrote 11's "The Lodger"), but it all came together for me in this episode. From the Wikipedia entries, it does seem like they're running them roughly in the order they were shot, so who knows.
posted by mumkin at 9:04 PM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by mumkin at 9:04 PM on September 29, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wasn't really seeing racist undertones in the PE verbal abuse - until the end, when Danny saved the world with his super athletic prowess, rather than his super maths teacher brains. Then it became impossible *not* to see. But maybe that's just me projecting old racist tropes somewhere they don't actually exist.
For me, the scene would have been completely different if it'd been a white maths teacher being all acrobatic. More of a lookit-the-cool-nerd-bet-you-didn't-expect-THAT kind of thing.
But it's Doctor Who, a family TV show about a guy who blows up planets, betrays his own people, and regularly commits genocide because, I guess, human life trumps everything else. Which is inherently racist, or species-ist, or something, so it's probably best not to overthink it or I just won't be able to watch it atall.
posted by merelyglib at 9:59 AM on September 30, 2014
For me, the scene would have been completely different if it'd been a white maths teacher being all acrobatic. More of a lookit-the-cool-nerd-bet-you-didn't-expect-THAT kind of thing.
But it's Doctor Who, a family TV show about a guy who blows up planets, betrays his own people, and regularly commits genocide because, I guess, human life trumps everything else. Which is inherently racist, or species-ist, or something, so it's probably best not to overthink it or I just won't be able to watch it atall.
posted by merelyglib at 9:59 AM on September 30, 2014
So I didn't watch this until last night, due to being at a sff convention all weekend and having writing group last night. My attention didn't flag during it like some of the previous episodes, so that's good, but I can't say I got super into it at any point either. I feel a little irritated by the Missy scenes at this point; the suspense and anticipation of that bit is turning into something that draws away from the rest of it for me. Like having a huge zit on your nose and not being able to focus on anything else...
...though that comparison is probably too harsh. I just need this to be resolved. :/ (I think that's just me, and I think I'll like these episodes better when I rewatch them after that tension has been relieved.)
Still, I find myself wanting to go watch some really plot-oriented classic Who serial.
Other bits:
- I like Danny.
- Courtney is OK but mildly annoying for a very specific reason: She's one of those kids who wanders around with her mouth open all the time, much like certain models.
- Is there a teacher on this planet who would wear a skirt that short to a high school? (Disclaimer: I am a teacher, and so I know the answer is "yes," but Clara seems more self-aware than the types of teachers I've met who'd do this)
- More TARDIS in space shots please!
- This episode made me wonder how quickly it got listed on TVTropes' page for A Soldier Knows a Soldier or whatever, but if there is such a trope, I can't find it. This is totally a trope, right? Hmmm.
And Cold Lurkey, thank you: I knew I recognized him from something, but I didn't get around to looking it up. Nice!
posted by wintersweet at 10:03 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
...though that comparison is probably too harsh. I just need this to be resolved. :/ (I think that's just me, and I think I'll like these episodes better when I rewatch them after that tension has been relieved.)
Still, I find myself wanting to go watch some really plot-oriented classic Who serial.
Other bits:
- I like Danny.
- Courtney is OK but mildly annoying for a very specific reason: She's one of those kids who wanders around with her mouth open all the time, much like certain models.
- Is there a teacher on this planet who would wear a skirt that short to a high school? (Disclaimer: I am a teacher, and so I know the answer is "yes," but Clara seems more self-aware than the types of teachers I've met who'd do this)
- More TARDIS in space shots please!
- This episode made me wonder how quickly it got listed on TVTropes' page for A Soldier Knows a Soldier or whatever, but if there is such a trope, I can't find it. This is totally a trope, right? Hmmm.
And Cold Lurkey, thank you: I knew I recognized him from something, but I didn't get around to looking it up. Nice!
posted by wintersweet at 10:03 AM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
I thought Clara's skirt was actually a pair of loose shorts. A skort maybe?
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 4:25 PM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 4:25 PM on September 30, 2014 [1 favorite]
Ah, well spotted, Ik ben afgesneden.
Now I think they're adorable.
posted by wintersweet at 6:03 PM on September 30, 2014
Now I think they're adorable.
posted by wintersweet at 6:03 PM on September 30, 2014
A proper racist would've had Danny bringing up the racist nature of the exchange just to be able to roll their eyes and be all "look the thought police" or "who's the real racist here"
See Dawkins, Clarkson or whoever's the UKIP mouthpiece du jour.
I am starting to really enjoy Capaldi and I think every episode this series has grown steadily better compared to the usual mixture of good and bad.
Clara as a character and Coleman as an actor continue to be a revelation.
posted by fullerine at 8:51 PM on September 30, 2014
See Dawkins, Clarkson or whoever's the UKIP mouthpiece du jour.
I am starting to really enjoy Capaldi and I think every episode this series has grown steadily better compared to the usual mixture of good and bad.
Clara as a character and Coleman as an actor continue to be a revelation.
posted by fullerine at 8:51 PM on September 30, 2014
A proper racist would've had Danny bringing up the racist nature of the exchange just to be able to roll their eyes and be all "look the thought police" or "who's the real racist here"
I think there's a difference between being a troll or an asshole and doing something which is (or can be read as) unintentionally racist. Maybe that's just the difference between characterizing the actions as racist and characterizing the person as racist. I think most people--including me--can do racist things unintentionally. I know that I have, and probably will again, because racism permeates every aspect of our culture in countless ways, and I'm sure I don't recognize all of them. But I'm not taking that as an excuse to give up trying, any more than dropping my sandwich is an excuse to give up eating.
At any rate, in my comments above I'm not talking about the author; I'm talking about that particular scene which read to me as racist due to its similarity to more blatantly racist situations I'd witnessed.
I'd agree that this season is generally getting better, and I'm liking both Coleman's and Capaldi's work more as it continues. For me there's an inverse relationship between how good I think something is and how willing I am to criticize it; on a lot of things I don't bother pointing out all the flaws because it seems easy, tedious, and pointless.
posted by johnofjack at 6:22 AM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I think there's a difference between being a troll or an asshole and doing something which is (or can be read as) unintentionally racist. Maybe that's just the difference between characterizing the actions as racist and characterizing the person as racist. I think most people--including me--can do racist things unintentionally. I know that I have, and probably will again, because racism permeates every aspect of our culture in countless ways, and I'm sure I don't recognize all of them. But I'm not taking that as an excuse to give up trying, any more than dropping my sandwich is an excuse to give up eating.
At any rate, in my comments above I'm not talking about the author; I'm talking about that particular scene which read to me as racist due to its similarity to more blatantly racist situations I'd witnessed.
I'd agree that this season is generally getting better, and I'm liking both Coleman's and Capaldi's work more as it continues. For me there's an inverse relationship between how good I think something is and how willing I am to criticize it; on a lot of things I don't bother pointing out all the flaws because it seems easy, tedious, and pointless.
posted by johnofjack at 6:22 AM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I feel a little irritated by the Missy scenes at this point; the suspense and anticipation of that bit is turning into something that draws away from the rest of it for me. Like having a huge zit on your nose and not being able to focus on anything else...
I know exactly the feeling you mean, but, weirdly, this is the first season in a while where the season-wide arc didn't feel like that to me: I got that feeling more from the mysteries around River Song, the Silence, and the Impossible Girl; heck, the whole "Doctor's Real Name" red herring has been bugging me since Moffat started dropping hints during the Tennant era. By the time Capaldi started, the show was starting to lose me because it felt like late-era LOST: a bunch of mysteries designed to tease us, rather than interesting standalone stories. Conversely, the Missy/Heaven stuff feels more like the earlier arcs (Bad Wolf, etc) to me: nice hints at a larger story that don't distract from the episodes themselves.
posted by DiscountDeity at 8:50 AM on October 1, 2014
I know exactly the feeling you mean, but, weirdly, this is the first season in a while where the season-wide arc didn't feel like that to me: I got that feeling more from the mysteries around River Song, the Silence, and the Impossible Girl; heck, the whole "Doctor's Real Name" red herring has been bugging me since Moffat started dropping hints during the Tennant era. By the time Capaldi started, the show was starting to lose me because it felt like late-era LOST: a bunch of mysteries designed to tease us, rather than interesting standalone stories. Conversely, the Missy/Heaven stuff feels more like the earlier arcs (Bad Wolf, etc) to me: nice hints at a larger story that don't distract from the episodes themselves.
posted by DiscountDeity at 8:50 AM on October 1, 2014
I came away with the impression that there were quite a few intentional displays of racism throughout the episode. Here's what I remember off the top of my head, I think pretty much in chronological order:
posted by WCWedin at 9:17 AM on October 1, 2014
- The two black students are assumed to be playing hooky by the white cop.
- The Doctor refuses to see Danny as a math teacher.
- Courtney (previously established as difficult student) introduces herself to the doctor as "Disruptive Influence".
- They put Courtney's parents at a table right next to a pair of white parents with a star student.
- They framed that shot with three black characters on the left side of the screen and three white characters on the right.
posted by WCWedin at 9:17 AM on October 1, 2014
I'm not annoyed by the Missy story or anything, but I'm not engaged by it either. Mostly because, as others have pointed out, Moffat builds his riddles backwards, so no amount of speculation will likely lead to the right answer. Missy is probably not the Master or the Rani or River Song or the Valeyard, but we won't know what she actually is until we're told. So until then, I just shrug and watch the scene and forget about that plotline until the next episode.
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:39 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:39 AM on October 1, 2014 [2 favorites]
Are there a lot of black Phys Ed teachers in the US? Because if not this entire thread makes fuck-all sense. It's certainly not a PE-teacher trope in the UK.
And, WCWedin, generally kids that age are assumed to be playing truant if they're off-site in the daytime, full-stop. The school's supposed to be in London. It is not weird for some of the kids (and some of their parents) to be black.
(It is, on the other hand, very weird that none apparently are of Indian, Bangla or Pakistani heritage, but none of you are complaining about that.)
Whole lot of Americans here projecting a bunch of stuff onto a UK environment it's mostly irrelevant to, and then calling other people culturally-insensitive.
posted by genghis at 11:15 PM on October 1, 2014 [8 favorites]
And, WCWedin, generally kids that age are assumed to be playing truant if they're off-site in the daytime, full-stop. The school's supposed to be in London. It is not weird for some of the kids (and some of their parents) to be black.
(It is, on the other hand, very weird that none apparently are of Indian, Bangla or Pakistani heritage, but none of you are complaining about that.)
Whole lot of Americans here projecting a bunch of stuff onto a UK environment it's mostly irrelevant to, and then calling other people culturally-insensitive.
posted by genghis at 11:15 PM on October 1, 2014 [8 favorites]
Genghis, I actually think the police officer in that opening scene is meant to come across as a little racist to be honest. Racism in London super does exist, as the tension which sparked the riots rather demonstrated.
I don't think the PE thing is racist, but I can see how it could be construed like that. It's not that black PE teachers are a thing, but the idea that black people are less intelligent and more physical is a stereotype that certainly exists.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 11:49 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
I don't think the PE thing is racist, but I can see how it could be construed like that. It's not that black PE teachers are a thing, but the idea that black people are less intelligent and more physical is a stereotype that certainly exists.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 11:49 PM on October 1, 2014 [1 favorite]
And, WCWedin, generally kids that age are assumed to be playing truant if they're off-site in the daytime, full-stop.
I think you've misread what I was trying to say. Sure, the scene itself was probably included to let the viewers know that the building was close to the school, and so the casting there was incidental to the plot, but the casting was still a deliberate choice that someone made. I don't think I'm accusing anyone of culturally insensitivity in pointing that out. In fact, I think I was pretty charitable in how I speculated about their motivations.
(What is it about formatting things as lists that makes people take my words out of context?)
posted by WCWedin at 1:18 PM on October 3, 2014
I think you've misread what I was trying to say. Sure, the scene itself was probably included to let the viewers know that the building was close to the school, and so the casting there was incidental to the plot, but the casting was still a deliberate choice that someone made. I don't think I'm accusing anyone of culturally insensitivity in pointing that out. In fact, I think I was pretty charitable in how I speculated about their motivations.
(What is it about formatting things as lists that makes people take my words out of context?)
posted by WCWedin at 1:18 PM on October 3, 2014
I think the big reveal of the Missy arc, where she's collecting people who died because of the Doctor, will be the return of ... ADRIC!
posted by rikschell at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2014
posted by rikschell at 2:19 PM on October 3, 2014
2018 Update: It turns out that British people can, in fact, be racist.
posted by schmod at 1:03 PM on February 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by schmod at 1:03 PM on February 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
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Danny's assessment of the Doctor as an officer-type is extra-think-inducing in the light of Listen's implication that the young Doctor was not originally at the top of the Gallifreyan social hierarchy. It's often the people who battled their way to upward mobility who are most invested in the existing social system, and while the Doctor is a very unconventional Time Lord in oh so many ways, he doesn't stint on opportunities to, well, Lord it over other species.
In broad strokes I thought their conflict made sense and was great drama, but I was squicked by the Doctor constantly knocking on Danny's intelligence. Have we not learned from the unfortunate implications of the Ninth/Tenth Doctor ragging on Mickey, show, really. This is not what I meant when I said the negging would seem more properly alien if he did it to other people besides Clara!
(The "having a wash" joke was properly funny, though, probably because Clara was participating this time.)
Clara is not only picking up more Doctor tendencies (and not the good ones this time), she's found herself in a Silver Age comics secret identity dilemma.
Poor Courtney, second one-shot companion of New Who. I'm thinking she'll be more fondly remembered than Adam, at least, because she's hilarious.
posted by bettafish at 3:32 PM on September 27, 2014 [2 favorites]