Star Trek: Voyager: Infinite Regress Rewatch
December 14, 2017 3:24 AM - Season 5, Episode 7 - Subscribe
Seven of Nine is an individual, but she's also a Borg, but the Borg are also all of their assimilated species, which means Seven is all of them, but she's an individual, but she's still a Borg…
We are Memory Alpha. We will add your personality distinctiveness to our own:
- The genesis of this episode concerned the personalities that the Borg Collective had assimilated, though the installment was to have originally featured one of these in particular. Explained producer Kenneth Biller, "The original idea of the episode was that Seven met one person who was trying to pull out of Seven the personality of some loved one who had been assimilated by the Borg. That seemed a little far-fetched, that you could dig out one specific personality out of somebody who was a Borg that had assimilated millions of people."
- This story idea was coupled with the concept of the Borg vinculum, which originated in a completely unrelated story idea that was thought up and pitched by Jimmy Diggs; the suggested plot involved the discovery of a destroyed Borg vessel. Executive producer Brannon Braga was interested in using the concept of the vinculum but initially insisted that the story featuring it would be, in the words of supervising producer Joe Menosky, "a maddening tech story."
- Challenged with incorporating the technicalities of the vinculum into the script, Brannon Braga did much uncredited rewriting of the teleplay. "That vinculum ended up an albatross around [Brannon Braga's] neck," Joe Menosky recalled. "Brannon paid the price for it, because he had to do a massive amount of rewriting. It was a very difficult script to get in shape."
- Largely because she was not entirely familiar with Star Trek, Seven of Nine actress Jeri Ryan struggled with this episode. "'Infinite Regress' was a challenge on a lot of different levels," admitted the actress. "It would have been a challenge anyway if you had two or three weeks to prepare for it. But I didn't. I had no research time [....] It was tough. I was really doing it by the seat of my pants, I felt." Ryan, who had never seen a Ferengi or full-blooded Klingon before, was given tapes to watch. "They were throwing tapes at me from episodes of DS9 that had Ferengis in them, so that I could at least watch how they move and how they talk," she said. "They were throwing Klingon tapes at me, because really the only Klingon I had encountered was B'Elanna, and that doesn't count because she is only half-Klingon." Ryan joked, "I was about ready to murder [...] Brannon Braga for writing [so many] pages of Ferengi."
- The difficulties inherent in Jeri Ryan's multi-faceted role here did not inhibit her enjoyment of performing in the episode. She especially found that transitioning her performance from the usually-reserved character of Seven of Nine to "the complete opposite extreme" was "so much fun" and thought the episode ultimately "turned out pretty well."
- In the mind meld sequence, a Hirogen is seen among the crowd of people. This could be seen as an error given that Seven was unable to identify them in "Message in a Bottle" and implies in "The Killing Game, Part II" that the Borg had not encountered them yet either, so it's unlikely one of her personalities would have been a member of that species. However it's possible that the Borg had assimilated the Hirogen after Seven's liberation, and some of the figures seen were emanated from the vinculum.
- Another continuity oddity is when Seven identifies the Ferengi as Species 180. All of the other Alpha Quadrant species had four digit designations, and most of the Delta Quadrant species had three digit numbers, suggesting the species designations were sequential in order of contact. The designation for Ferengi seems to contradict that.
- One of the species that swarm Seven is a reptilian scaly alien that first appeared as Venturi in the video game Star Trek: Starfleet Academy.
"Naomi Wildman, subunit of Ensign Samantha Wildman. State your intentions."
- Seven of Nine to Naomi, concerning her "investigation".
(to Seven) "I have some wonderful medicinal teas, maybe I can prepare one for you!"
"Talaxian homeopathy? I don't think we're quite that desperate yet."
- Neelix and The Doctor, on Seven's situation
"With all of these new personalities floating around, it's a shame we can't find one for you."
- The Doctor to Tuvok before he begins the mind meld with Seven of Nine
Poster's Log:
My opinion of this episode happens to have been exactly expressed by Bernd Schneider of Ex Astris Scientia:
There are times the writers don't have better ideas than have a character go schizo. It is just too alluring to let the person exhibit unusual and crazy characteristics and spice it up with some eerie dream or hallucination sequences. It is just so effortless, as there is no need to stay in context or in character. While plot largely lacks originality, it has some cute and funny moments that prevent the episode from being a complete waste. For instance, there is the unique opportunity to see Seven as a Ferengi or the emerging friendship of Seven and Naomi.
A striking absurdity, however, is that nearly all the assimilated individuals in Seven are from the Alpha Quadrant, although they should amount to only a few thousand among trillions. It is also odd that the Doctor suddenly disagrees with mind melds, while he had no objections in "Flashback".
Looking over the production notes, it's strikingly apparent that the writers got stuck. And also how unfamiliar Jeri Ryan was with Ferengi—not that the bit isn't amusing, but somehow her cadences and body language were just not there. Ah well, they can't all be "Timeless."
Poster's Log, Supplemental:
The MA page for this episode claims that the "Venturi" first appeared in this video game and were only later seen in canon, but the release date of that game is months after that of the species' first TV appearance (DS9: "A Simple Investigation")—so I think what MA meant to say is that the Venturi were introduced in the 1994 SNES game Starfleet Academy Starship Bridge Simulator. (The video game links go to Memory Beta, the Wikia for noncanon/officially-licensed Trek content.) What can I say, I sometimes find myself engrossed in tracking the lineage of unnamed Trek aliens seen on-screen.
We are Memory Alpha. We will add your personality distinctiveness to our own:
- The genesis of this episode concerned the personalities that the Borg Collective had assimilated, though the installment was to have originally featured one of these in particular. Explained producer Kenneth Biller, "The original idea of the episode was that Seven met one person who was trying to pull out of Seven the personality of some loved one who had been assimilated by the Borg. That seemed a little far-fetched, that you could dig out one specific personality out of somebody who was a Borg that had assimilated millions of people."
- This story idea was coupled with the concept of the Borg vinculum, which originated in a completely unrelated story idea that was thought up and pitched by Jimmy Diggs; the suggested plot involved the discovery of a destroyed Borg vessel. Executive producer Brannon Braga was interested in using the concept of the vinculum but initially insisted that the story featuring it would be, in the words of supervising producer Joe Menosky, "a maddening tech story."
- Challenged with incorporating the technicalities of the vinculum into the script, Brannon Braga did much uncredited rewriting of the teleplay. "That vinculum ended up an albatross around [Brannon Braga's] neck," Joe Menosky recalled. "Brannon paid the price for it, because he had to do a massive amount of rewriting. It was a very difficult script to get in shape."
- Largely because she was not entirely familiar with Star Trek, Seven of Nine actress Jeri Ryan struggled with this episode. "'Infinite Regress' was a challenge on a lot of different levels," admitted the actress. "It would have been a challenge anyway if you had two or three weeks to prepare for it. But I didn't. I had no research time [....] It was tough. I was really doing it by the seat of my pants, I felt." Ryan, who had never seen a Ferengi or full-blooded Klingon before, was given tapes to watch. "They were throwing tapes at me from episodes of DS9 that had Ferengis in them, so that I could at least watch how they move and how they talk," she said. "They were throwing Klingon tapes at me, because really the only Klingon I had encountered was B'Elanna, and that doesn't count because she is only half-Klingon." Ryan joked, "I was about ready to murder [...] Brannon Braga for writing [so many] pages of Ferengi."
- The difficulties inherent in Jeri Ryan's multi-faceted role here did not inhibit her enjoyment of performing in the episode. She especially found that transitioning her performance from the usually-reserved character of Seven of Nine to "the complete opposite extreme" was "so much fun" and thought the episode ultimately "turned out pretty well."
- In the mind meld sequence, a Hirogen is seen among the crowd of people. This could be seen as an error given that Seven was unable to identify them in "Message in a Bottle" and implies in "The Killing Game, Part II" that the Borg had not encountered them yet either, so it's unlikely one of her personalities would have been a member of that species. However it's possible that the Borg had assimilated the Hirogen after Seven's liberation, and some of the figures seen were emanated from the vinculum.
- Another continuity oddity is when Seven identifies the Ferengi as Species 180. All of the other Alpha Quadrant species had four digit designations, and most of the Delta Quadrant species had three digit numbers, suggesting the species designations were sequential in order of contact. The designation for Ferengi seems to contradict that.
- One of the species that swarm Seven is a reptilian scaly alien that first appeared as Venturi in the video game Star Trek: Starfleet Academy.
"Naomi Wildman, subunit of Ensign Samantha Wildman. State your intentions."
- Seven of Nine to Naomi, concerning her "investigation".
(to Seven) "I have some wonderful medicinal teas, maybe I can prepare one for you!"
"Talaxian homeopathy? I don't think we're quite that desperate yet."
- Neelix and The Doctor, on Seven's situation
"With all of these new personalities floating around, it's a shame we can't find one for you."
- The Doctor to Tuvok before he begins the mind meld with Seven of Nine
Poster's Log:
My opinion of this episode happens to have been exactly expressed by Bernd Schneider of Ex Astris Scientia:
There are times the writers don't have better ideas than have a character go schizo. It is just too alluring to let the person exhibit unusual and crazy characteristics and spice it up with some eerie dream or hallucination sequences. It is just so effortless, as there is no need to stay in context or in character. While plot largely lacks originality, it has some cute and funny moments that prevent the episode from being a complete waste. For instance, there is the unique opportunity to see Seven as a Ferengi or the emerging friendship of Seven and Naomi.
A striking absurdity, however, is that nearly all the assimilated individuals in Seven are from the Alpha Quadrant, although they should amount to only a few thousand among trillions. It is also odd that the Doctor suddenly disagrees with mind melds, while he had no objections in "Flashback".
Looking over the production notes, it's strikingly apparent that the writers got stuck. And also how unfamiliar Jeri Ryan was with Ferengi—not that the bit isn't amusing, but somehow her cadences and body language were just not there. Ah well, they can't all be "Timeless."
Poster's Log, Supplemental:
The MA page for this episode claims that the "Venturi" first appeared in this video game and were only later seen in canon, but the release date of that game is months after that of the species' first TV appearance (DS9: "A Simple Investigation")—so I think what MA meant to say is that the Venturi were introduced in the 1994 SNES game Starfleet Academy Starship Bridge Simulator. (The video game links go to Memory Beta, the Wikia for noncanon/officially-licensed Trek content.) What can I say, I sometimes find myself engrossed in tracking the lineage of unnamed Trek aliens seen on-screen.
Hey, yeah, you know, I meant to call out the very believable older-guy makeup on Kim and Chakotay. Aging via makeup isn't always successful, but I really liked it in "Timeless."
What were we talking about?
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:50 AM on December 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
What were we talking about?
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 6:50 AM on December 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
I also agree with Bernd Schneider. MPD/DID stories are among the most dramatic of all psychodrama, and even though it gives Ryan a chance to show off her acting chops, it seems to be yet another example of the show being drawn to psychodrama, but not really doing it very well. The implications of Seven having thousands, or even a few dozen (all that we saw via Tuvok's mind meld), different minds in her head, permanently--does she have their complete memories, or just enough to present as a separate personality? Are there likewise copies of Seven floating around in drones throughout the Collective?--isn't going to be explored, because it's all because of the vinculum, and specifically an infected vinculum; the whatsis goes away, and the condition with it. Another thing that came up that was largely unexplored was Species 6339 and their determination to avenge their species; we all like Seven (well, probably to greater or lesser extents) and want her to be OK, but can anyone really blame them for wanting to take down as much of the Collective as they can? (This determination to get revenge will show up in a future episode that explores this in more depth.)
Well, anyway. I didn't mind Ryan's portrayal of the Ferengi personality just because the Ferengi themselves haven't been played with 100% consistency between their original portrayals in TNG and the more nuanced characters in DS9. The bit with the personality of the mother of the Melbourne crewmember who doesn't realized what happened at Wolf 359 was more effective, and we also got Naomi Wildman, Girl Detective.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:17 AM on December 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Well, anyway. I didn't mind Ryan's portrayal of the Ferengi personality just because the Ferengi themselves haven't been played with 100% consistency between their original portrayals in TNG and the more nuanced characters in DS9. The bit with the personality of the mother of the Melbourne crewmember who doesn't realized what happened at Wolf 359 was more effective, and we also got Naomi Wildman, Girl Detective.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:17 AM on December 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Particle of the Week: The alien virus, which is a particularly silly example of Treknobabble. (Pretty sure no amount of genetic engineering would make the common cold jump over to your computer.)
Pointless STO Comparison of the Week: I keep coming back to the Star Trek Online mission 'Mindscape,' but it connects to Infinite Regress too - during a mind meld with Tuvok, the player is aided by a (walking, talking) memory of Seven from this encounter, and has to fight off what amount to angry ghosts that are the remembered images of personalities encountered through the vinculum.
Ongoing Counts:
* Maximum Possible Photon Torpedoes: 4. I hope I didn't miss any fired during the fight - mildly distracted during this one.
* Crew: 135.
* Credulity Straining Alpha Quadrant Contacts: 9.
* Janeway's Big Red Button: 2 aborted self-destructs, 1 successful, 1 game of chicken, 1 ramming speed.
Notes:
* The term 'vinculum' always cracks me up.
My prior knowledge of 'vinculums' is from honors math in high school, (definition 2 here), so that always feels extra silly when Trek uses them. That said, it's the sort of cutesy Latin thing I might've done myself, so I guess I can't fault them.
The Ex Astris thing is good stuff, as always. That said, I guess the one Voyager thing I'll defend here is this:
It is also odd that the Doctor suddenly disagrees with mind melds, while he had no objections in "Flashback".
The Doctor has a healthy skepticism of mind melds, established in Meld:
* You guys covered a bunch of problems already.
In particular, I came here to complain about the Hirogen, Krenim and Ferengi designation. The last is especially irksome. Per Dark Frontier, the Borg Queen is actually from Species 125, and humans are Species 5618. There's basically no way to reconcile that one - another spot where actually having a series bible would've helped.
* Moving on to new complaints: the aliens.
We've seen what happens to people whose species have been devoured whole by the Borg - most recently, there was Arturis. For my money, the iconic one is Borg-world Riker from Parallels. What's everybody got in common? Desperation. They're lost, they're hopeless, they know they're going to die.
These guys are swaggering, holding a ton of firepower and making demands. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, but it took me out of the proceedings - I wanted them to be ragged, maybe in need of food or medical supplies, etc., not flying yet another ship that completely outclasses Voyager.
* Good performances.
Per the usual, Ryan is up to whatever is asked of her. Her performance is more impressive in light of the background Cheeses provided. Naomi Wildman, girl detective, is pretty cute. B'Ellana, Neelix, Janeway, the Doctor, etc. are game. Tuvok gets a lot to do here, which I always approve of.
* This is another demonstration of Tuvok and Seven being good friends.
Tuvok throws himself into this - he admits it will be dangerous to his life and sanity, and he is more demonstrative in the dream sequence than we see him at almost any other time. This is a good callback to his behavior toward her in The Raven.
* Seven's treatment of Naomi is good.
I particularly liked the ending, where she goes ahead and helps Naomi.
In conclusion: I have a lot of problems with the story, but there are some touches I liked, and the performances render it generally watchable even though it's a hot mess.
posted by mordax at 9:04 AM on December 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
Pointless STO Comparison of the Week: I keep coming back to the Star Trek Online mission 'Mindscape,' but it connects to Infinite Regress too - during a mind meld with Tuvok, the player is aided by a (walking, talking) memory of Seven from this encounter, and has to fight off what amount to angry ghosts that are the remembered images of personalities encountered through the vinculum.
Ongoing Counts:
* Maximum Possible Photon Torpedoes: 4. I hope I didn't miss any fired during the fight - mildly distracted during this one.
* Crew: 135.
* Credulity Straining Alpha Quadrant Contacts: 9.
* Janeway's Big Red Button: 2 aborted self-destructs, 1 successful, 1 game of chicken, 1 ramming speed.
Notes:
* The term 'vinculum' always cracks me up.
My prior knowledge of 'vinculums' is from honors math in high school, (definition 2 here), so that always feels extra silly when Trek uses them. That said, it's the sort of cutesy Latin thing I might've done myself, so I guess I can't fault them.
The Ex Astris thing is good stuff, as always. That said, I guess the one Voyager thing I'll defend here is this:
It is also odd that the Doctor suddenly disagrees with mind melds, while he had no objections in "Flashback".
The Doctor has a healthy skepticism of mind melds, established in Meld:
EMH: Vulcan mind melds. Utter foolishness. Anybody with an ounce of sense wouldn't share his brain with someone else. Would you? I certainly wouldn't. And of course, when something goes wrong, and believe me it does more often than they'd like to admit, the first thing they call out is Doctor.It's true that he goes along with them from time to time, but this is an especially dangerous use of the technique, so his alarm here feels warranted and consistent to me.
* You guys covered a bunch of problems already.
In particular, I came here to complain about the Hirogen, Krenim and Ferengi designation. The last is especially irksome. Per Dark Frontier, the Borg Queen is actually from Species 125, and humans are Species 5618. There's basically no way to reconcile that one - another spot where actually having a series bible would've helped.
* Moving on to new complaints: the aliens.
We've seen what happens to people whose species have been devoured whole by the Borg - most recently, there was Arturis. For my money, the iconic one is Borg-world Riker from Parallels. What's everybody got in common? Desperation. They're lost, they're hopeless, they know they're going to die.
These guys are swaggering, holding a ton of firepower and making demands. It's not beyond the realm of possibility, but it took me out of the proceedings - I wanted them to be ragged, maybe in need of food or medical supplies, etc., not flying yet another ship that completely outclasses Voyager.
* Good performances.
Per the usual, Ryan is up to whatever is asked of her. Her performance is more impressive in light of the background Cheeses provided. Naomi Wildman, girl detective, is pretty cute. B'Ellana, Neelix, Janeway, the Doctor, etc. are game. Tuvok gets a lot to do here, which I always approve of.
* This is another demonstration of Tuvok and Seven being good friends.
Tuvok throws himself into this - he admits it will be dangerous to his life and sanity, and he is more demonstrative in the dream sequence than we see him at almost any other time. This is a good callback to his behavior toward her in The Raven.
* Seven's treatment of Naomi is good.
I particularly liked the ending, where she goes ahead and helps Naomi.
In conclusion: I have a lot of problems with the story, but there are some touches I liked, and the performances render it generally watchable even though it's a hot mess.
posted by mordax at 9:04 AM on December 14, 2017 [4 favorites]
Also, that got a little jumbled while I was adding reactions to what I wrote last night, pardon - the mind meld bit should be later. D'oh!
(I usually take notes while I'm watching and then fill it out after reading the thread, and it's normally fine.)
posted by mordax at 9:21 AM on December 14, 2017
(I usually take notes while I'm watching and then fill it out after reading the thread, and it's normally fine.)
posted by mordax at 9:21 AM on December 14, 2017
So, I'm back from Things for the day and had a further thought about this episode:
At the end of the day, this scenario is similar to the one with Hugh in I Borg: they had the option to unleash a weapon of mass destruction, possibly even genocide, on the Borg Collective and passed largely to save a single friend from dying in agony.
How do you guys feel about what the crew of Voyager did, here?
posted by mordax at 9:29 PM on December 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
At the end of the day, this scenario is similar to the one with Hugh in I Borg: they had the option to unleash a weapon of mass destruction, possibly even genocide, on the Borg Collective and passed largely to save a single friend from dying in agony.
How do you guys feel about what the crew of Voyager did, here?
posted by mordax at 9:29 PM on December 14, 2017 [1 favorite]
Isn't it implied that the vinculum can still be reactivated and that that's why Species 6339 leaves them alone when they beam it out into space?
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:55 AM on December 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:55 AM on December 15, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hmm. You're right, I missed the 'we can remodulate our dampening field to compensate for this in the future' thing. It's dumb enough I skipped right past it while I was distracted yesterday.
That would explain why the weapon doesn't end up defeating further Borg, then - if Voyager can figure it out in such a short span of time, a Borg vessel with a *functional* vinculum can presumably screen this out in no time at all, preventing any interference from the signal.
Never mind. It's just a very stupid plan on the part of Species 6339, and in a better story they probably would've wanted to know what Voyager thought would block the scan to perfect future weapons research.
posted by mordax at 8:54 AM on December 15, 2017
That would explain why the weapon doesn't end up defeating further Borg, then - if Voyager can figure it out in such a short span of time, a Borg vessel with a *functional* vinculum can presumably screen this out in no time at all, preventing any interference from the signal.
Never mind. It's just a very stupid plan on the part of Species 6339, and in a better story they probably would've wanted to know what Voyager thought would block the scan to perfect future weapons research.
posted by mordax at 8:54 AM on December 15, 2017
This was a it of a mixed bag for me. There are elements I liked a fair bit, but almost as many I wasn't too fond of or found tired.
The good things were Naomi's burgeoning relationship with Seven, which alone keeps the episode from feeling like a waste of time, Ryan's performance was quite good for the most part, and Tuvok was put to good use and got a chance to build his connection to Seven again, though that's something the writers didn't follow up on nearly enough, which follows them sort of messing up the Kes Tuvok bonding by inconsistent attention as well.
The vinculum idea wasn't bad, but by now the Seven has issues and may pose a threat to Voyager from being a Borg isn't exactly new and exciting terrain to cover. The idea of this being her "breakthrough" into accepting her new life as part of the crew by coming to terms with her past fits the theme the show's been following since Night or so, with different crew members facing some issue that needs resolving for them to deal with their situation on Voyager. Timeless, for example, was Harry's episode for dealing with his desire to get home and focus instead on accepting his circumstance, which leads to more focus on promotion and things in the moment rather than thinking he "should be" on Earth instead.
Seven here is severing some of her Borg collectivism by feeling the individuality of those assimilated instead of just experiencing them as an undifferentiated mass. Her bonding with Naomi signals a desire to move on, in part, from that element of Borg differentiation, even if not fully abandoning some associated values tied to self perfection. If they hadn't already gone over similar themes with Seven several times, this might have worked better, but by now it feels a bit redundant even if it isn't exactly the same concept as before. It also helps explain why Alpha Quadrant characters dominated Seven's experience in a way since that better fits the struggle she's having between her past and accepting her future on Voyager, and possibly Earth, as an Alpha Quadder herself.
As a plot device infecting the Borg will come up again and it's a reasonable kind of defense some species might attempt, though also desperate and terrible for the sacrifice demanded as they'll investigate further later on. The hows and whys of the vinculum don't really bother me or interest me that much in any quasi-sciencemagic terms, so I've got no issues there. The introduction of Species 6339 was odd just for how little it mattered other than as a time filler threat for this episode. Seems a bit of a needless waste considering they could have done the episode without any external threat and probably have been better for it.
The episode was much more fan servicey than usual, with lots of body shots of Ryan chosen to emphasize her body without need, a wouldbe seduction of B'Elanna, strapping her down to a biobed and little girling her again. Not a great look for the show in those elements. Janeway's character was again put more in service of the plot than as captain and decision maker with her own interests and values driving the story, the same, to a lesser extent, was true for the doctor in the mind meld bits, where the interest in amping up the drama and humor pushed the attitude more than concern for character consistency and understanding.
Nothing too horribly wrong with doc, but Janeway was undercut once again to little use, though no where near as badly as she has been and will be again when other stories grab the writers' fancy. Unlike the other Treks where the captain determines the tone the show will take in dealing with whatever issues they find, here Janeway is constantly shuffled around to fit whatever dramatic interests the writers have in the moment. Mulgrew does pretty well with this most of the time, but one can't help but suspect that having a woman as captain is still playing some part in this, with unexamined views on women and pliability informing the writing.
It's not a bad episode, but it really needed to be sharpened up a lot more to fit in with the run of better than usual shows they've been having. This one, despite the good elements, feels like a bit of a let down for not really coming together as well as it should.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:12 PM on December 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
The good things were Naomi's burgeoning relationship with Seven, which alone keeps the episode from feeling like a waste of time, Ryan's performance was quite good for the most part, and Tuvok was put to good use and got a chance to build his connection to Seven again, though that's something the writers didn't follow up on nearly enough, which follows them sort of messing up the Kes Tuvok bonding by inconsistent attention as well.
The vinculum idea wasn't bad, but by now the Seven has issues and may pose a threat to Voyager from being a Borg isn't exactly new and exciting terrain to cover. The idea of this being her "breakthrough" into accepting her new life as part of the crew by coming to terms with her past fits the theme the show's been following since Night or so, with different crew members facing some issue that needs resolving for them to deal with their situation on Voyager. Timeless, for example, was Harry's episode for dealing with his desire to get home and focus instead on accepting his circumstance, which leads to more focus on promotion and things in the moment rather than thinking he "should be" on Earth instead.
Seven here is severing some of her Borg collectivism by feeling the individuality of those assimilated instead of just experiencing them as an undifferentiated mass. Her bonding with Naomi signals a desire to move on, in part, from that element of Borg differentiation, even if not fully abandoning some associated values tied to self perfection. If they hadn't already gone over similar themes with Seven several times, this might have worked better, but by now it feels a bit redundant even if it isn't exactly the same concept as before. It also helps explain why Alpha Quadrant characters dominated Seven's experience in a way since that better fits the struggle she's having between her past and accepting her future on Voyager, and possibly Earth, as an Alpha Quadder herself.
As a plot device infecting the Borg will come up again and it's a reasonable kind of defense some species might attempt, though also desperate and terrible for the sacrifice demanded as they'll investigate further later on. The hows and whys of the vinculum don't really bother me or interest me that much in any quasi-sciencemagic terms, so I've got no issues there. The introduction of Species 6339 was odd just for how little it mattered other than as a time filler threat for this episode. Seems a bit of a needless waste considering they could have done the episode without any external threat and probably have been better for it.
The episode was much more fan servicey than usual, with lots of body shots of Ryan chosen to emphasize her body without need, a wouldbe seduction of B'Elanna, strapping her down to a biobed and little girling her again. Not a great look for the show in those elements. Janeway's character was again put more in service of the plot than as captain and decision maker with her own interests and values driving the story, the same, to a lesser extent, was true for the doctor in the mind meld bits, where the interest in amping up the drama and humor pushed the attitude more than concern for character consistency and understanding.
Nothing too horribly wrong with doc, but Janeway was undercut once again to little use, though no where near as badly as she has been and will be again when other stories grab the writers' fancy. Unlike the other Treks where the captain determines the tone the show will take in dealing with whatever issues they find, here Janeway is constantly shuffled around to fit whatever dramatic interests the writers have in the moment. Mulgrew does pretty well with this most of the time, but one can't help but suspect that having a woman as captain is still playing some part in this, with unexamined views on women and pliability informing the writing.
It's not a bad episode, but it really needed to be sharpened up a lot more to fit in with the run of better than usual shows they've been having. This one, despite the good elements, feels like a bit of a let down for not really coming together as well as it should.
posted by gusottertrout at 11:12 PM on December 15, 2017 [3 favorites]
Unlike the other Treks where the captain determines the tone the show will take in dealing with whatever issues they find, here Janeway is constantly shuffled around to fit whatever dramatic interests the writers have in the moment. Mulgrew does pretty well with this most of the time, but one can't help but suspect that having a woman as captain is still playing some part in this, with unexamined views on women and pliability informing the writing.
Well put. I bet this is at the heart of a large segment of Trekkers' distaste for this show. I mean, there's a lot to like about the series and some people really adore it, but the more I rewatch, the more "inconsistency" rises to the top of the ever-bubbling Voyager Problem Stew. It's probably even safe to say that it is the MOST inconsistent Trek series, and since being pretty damn consistent (at least in the TV incarnations) has always been a hallmark of Trek, some die-hards may have felt stung by the "anything goes" feel that this show often has. (And I mean "inconsistent" in the deeper sense you used it—tonally all over the map, character motivations and even personalities seeming to do a 180 when it's convenient for the plot—and not in the shallower senses of consistent Treknobabble use or access, or of "episode quality," with which every other Trek likewise had its struggles.)
I mean, to go back to "Timeless" (hah!), one of the reasons we all said it's so good is because it exploits dramatic stakes previously established, and shows us plausible character growth. The best of DS9 did exactly that too.
Now, what I will say in sincere defense of Voyager is that even if it is the least consistent Trek series, it's not the least deep. Depth, resonance, substance, subtext—"meat" maybe—this is a high personal priority for me with all fiction and especially with genre fiction. It's why the outcome of BSG irritated me, and it's why I've never felt that Enterprise was successful. VOY has more of it than ENT did, and so far, even DISCO does IMO.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 2:47 AM on December 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
Well put. I bet this is at the heart of a large segment of Trekkers' distaste for this show. I mean, there's a lot to like about the series and some people really adore it, but the more I rewatch, the more "inconsistency" rises to the top of the ever-bubbling Voyager Problem Stew. It's probably even safe to say that it is the MOST inconsistent Trek series, and since being pretty damn consistent (at least in the TV incarnations) has always been a hallmark of Trek, some die-hards may have felt stung by the "anything goes" feel that this show often has. (And I mean "inconsistent" in the deeper sense you used it—tonally all over the map, character motivations and even personalities seeming to do a 180 when it's convenient for the plot—and not in the shallower senses of consistent Treknobabble use or access, or of "episode quality," with which every other Trek likewise had its struggles.)
I mean, to go back to "Timeless" (hah!), one of the reasons we all said it's so good is because it exploits dramatic stakes previously established, and shows us plausible character growth. The best of DS9 did exactly that too.
Now, what I will say in sincere defense of Voyager is that even if it is the least consistent Trek series, it's not the least deep. Depth, resonance, substance, subtext—"meat" maybe—this is a high personal priority for me with all fiction and especially with genre fiction. It's why the outcome of BSG irritated me, and it's why I've never felt that Enterprise was successful. VOY has more of it than ENT did, and so far, even DISCO does IMO.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 2:47 AM on December 16, 2017 [6 favorites]
If they hadn't already gone over similar themes with Seven several times, this might have worked better, but by now it feels a bit redundant even if it isn't exactly the same concept as before.
Yeah. I think that really is part of the issue with this story: we aren't learning anything new. They could've gotten away with that, but this raised the bar for the episode, and it didn't really meet it.
It also helps explain why Alpha Quadrant characters dominated Seven's experience in a way since that better fits the struggle she's having between her past and accepting her future on Voyager, and possibly Earth, as an Alpha Quadder herself.
Hm. Fascinating. I dunno if the writers thought that deeply about this, but your justification does make sense.
>Mulgrew does pretty well with this most of the time, but one can't help but suspect that having a woman as captain is still playing some part in this, with unexamined views on women and pliability informing the writing.
Well put. I bet this is at the heart of a large segment of Trekkers' distaste for this show. I mean, there's a lot to like about the series and some people really adore it, but the more I rewatch, the more "inconsistency" rises to the top of the ever-bubbling Voyager Problem Stew.
I also agree with this sentiment.
What's saddest about it is that if I were composing a list of my favorite female characters in Trek, DS9 takes the #1 spot with Kira Nerys... then Voyager immediately snags spots #2 and #3 with B'Ellana Torres and Seven of Nine, in that order.
B'Ellana is complicated, strong, smart, central in a lot of good techno-thriller plots. Takes no crap from anyone, ever. Her approach to being Klingon is at least as believable as Worf's, and less naive to boot. Her relationship stuff isn't always great, but it's leaps and bounds beyond most other Trek characters. (I'd argue B'Ellana's romance with Tom is better than any relationship done with Kira, even though they go for the dumb fake arguing a lot. I think Ben Sisko/Kasidy Yates is better, but B'Ellana/Toms is actually up there, especially given Blood Fever.)
Seven is more problematic, but receives a ton of attention and benefits from Jeri Ryan's impressive acting chops. Watching Voyager, I definitely do feel like I know what Seven is like, and I feel invested in her.
So it isn't like nobody over there knew how to write a strong, compelling and consistent female character. They did it more than once! The fact they didn't do this for Janeway speaks more of a lack of interest in it to me, and I do bet it has to do with her being the actual leader - at the end of the day, B'Ellana and Seven are still subordinate to others.
Such a missed opportunity there.
Now, what I will say in sincere defense of Voyager is that even if it is the least consistent Trek series, it's not the least deep. Depth, resonance, substance, subtext—"meat" maybe—this is a high personal priority for me with all fiction and especially with genre fiction. It's why the outcome of BSG irritated me, and it's why I've never felt that Enterprise was successful. VOY has more of it than ENT did, and so far, even DISCO does IMO.
I'll have to chew on this one.
I would also rate Voyager higher than Enterprise, but for me it wasn't about depth so much. I feel like VOY doesn't handle it all that well, although it's had some interesting hits. Definitely have to sit with that assertion a bit to see how I feel.
Rewatching - and this is funny for me to say - I actually like the characters more. Looking at Voyager, I legitimately like Tuvok, B'Ellana, Seven, Tom, Harry and the Doctor. I want to like Chakotay and Janeway based on the strength of their performances and the glimmers of fun we see with them. I'm always happy when they get something cool to do, and I regret how jerked around they both were. Post-Kes, I don't hate Neelix, and if they'd never had a romantic relationship, I'd probably like him too.
When I think about Enterprise, I can't say I really enjoyed watching any of those people, with the mild exception of Trip. I specifically don't like Captain Archer, (and I loved Quantum Leap - nothing against Scott Bakula). I am completely indifferent to most of the crew, to the point where I dunno that I could even rattle off all their full names. I just... don't feel anything much for them, positive or negative.
(DISCO is also problematic from this angle because the show is so hyper-focused on Michael instead of hewing to the TNG/DS9/VOY ensemble model.)
posted by mordax at 9:10 AM on December 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah. I think that really is part of the issue with this story: we aren't learning anything new. They could've gotten away with that, but this raised the bar for the episode, and it didn't really meet it.
It also helps explain why Alpha Quadrant characters dominated Seven's experience in a way since that better fits the struggle she's having between her past and accepting her future on Voyager, and possibly Earth, as an Alpha Quadder herself.
Hm. Fascinating. I dunno if the writers thought that deeply about this, but your justification does make sense.
>Mulgrew does pretty well with this most of the time, but one can't help but suspect that having a woman as captain is still playing some part in this, with unexamined views on women and pliability informing the writing.
Well put. I bet this is at the heart of a large segment of Trekkers' distaste for this show. I mean, there's a lot to like about the series and some people really adore it, but the more I rewatch, the more "inconsistency" rises to the top of the ever-bubbling Voyager Problem Stew.
I also agree with this sentiment.
What's saddest about it is that if I were composing a list of my favorite female characters in Trek, DS9 takes the #1 spot with Kira Nerys... then Voyager immediately snags spots #2 and #3 with B'Ellana Torres and Seven of Nine, in that order.
B'Ellana is complicated, strong, smart, central in a lot of good techno-thriller plots. Takes no crap from anyone, ever. Her approach to being Klingon is at least as believable as Worf's, and less naive to boot. Her relationship stuff isn't always great, but it's leaps and bounds beyond most other Trek characters. (I'd argue B'Ellana's romance with Tom is better than any relationship done with Kira, even though they go for the dumb fake arguing a lot. I think Ben Sisko/Kasidy Yates is better, but B'Ellana/Toms is actually up there, especially given Blood Fever.)
Seven is more problematic, but receives a ton of attention and benefits from Jeri Ryan's impressive acting chops. Watching Voyager, I definitely do feel like I know what Seven is like, and I feel invested in her.
So it isn't like nobody over there knew how to write a strong, compelling and consistent female character. They did it more than once! The fact they didn't do this for Janeway speaks more of a lack of interest in it to me, and I do bet it has to do with her being the actual leader - at the end of the day, B'Ellana and Seven are still subordinate to others.
Such a missed opportunity there.
Now, what I will say in sincere defense of Voyager is that even if it is the least consistent Trek series, it's not the least deep. Depth, resonance, substance, subtext—"meat" maybe—this is a high personal priority for me with all fiction and especially with genre fiction. It's why the outcome of BSG irritated me, and it's why I've never felt that Enterprise was successful. VOY has more of it than ENT did, and so far, even DISCO does IMO.
I'll have to chew on this one.
I would also rate Voyager higher than Enterprise, but for me it wasn't about depth so much. I feel like VOY doesn't handle it all that well, although it's had some interesting hits. Definitely have to sit with that assertion a bit to see how I feel.
Rewatching - and this is funny for me to say - I actually like the characters more. Looking at Voyager, I legitimately like Tuvok, B'Ellana, Seven, Tom, Harry and the Doctor. I want to like Chakotay and Janeway based on the strength of their performances and the glimmers of fun we see with them. I'm always happy when they get something cool to do, and I regret how jerked around they both were. Post-Kes, I don't hate Neelix, and if they'd never had a romantic relationship, I'd probably like him too.
When I think about Enterprise, I can't say I really enjoyed watching any of those people, with the mild exception of Trip. I specifically don't like Captain Archer, (and I loved Quantum Leap - nothing against Scott Bakula). I am completely indifferent to most of the crew, to the point where I dunno that I could even rattle off all their full names. I just... don't feel anything much for them, positive or negative.
(DISCO is also problematic from this angle because the show is so hyper-focused on Michael instead of hewing to the TNG/DS9/VOY ensemble model.)
posted by mordax at 9:10 AM on December 16, 2017 [1 favorite]
Hm. Fascinating. I dunno if the writers thought that deeply about this, but your justification does make sense.
Oh, I assume they didn't, not in those terms exactly, but I imagine they thought of the viewer and chose personalities that best worked to gain viewer interest, which would be in choosing the races best known, which are those from the Alpha Quadrant, so it works along the same lines in the end as Seven adapts to the "normal" AlphaQbased Trekverse. The whole thing wouldn't have worked as well with unknown species or Kazon, Hirogen, or whatever, it needed to be generally well known species for the most part in order for the idea to better grab the viewer and make sense in the show I think.
Regarding the depth thing, yeah, from the series I've seen, Voyager holds up well in that regard, and perhaps even better if one is able to ignore the consistency issue completely and just take some of the shows as stand alones without concern over the characterizations. Equinox looks a lot better that way for example. At the same time character building is at the heart of some of my favorite "deeper" episodes, so there are times Voyager relies on longer term identification with the characters as well. That they go back and forth between the two is of course a major part of the problem for the show.
It's irksome since some of the characters are treated pretty consistently, sometimes in not very exciting fashions, like with some of Harry and B'Elanna's traits being more stereotype based in episodes where they aren't prominent, and some characters have reasonable changes throughout the run, like Neelix who definitely needed to have his character reworked from the first couple seasons, and they did that well. It's just that the characters they're most inconsistent on are Janeway and Chakotay (with Tuvok sometimes suffering from being ignored a bit as well). They have some traits that Janeway and Chakotay consistently maintain, which is I suspect as much due to Beltran and Mulgrew as the writers at times, but their personalities, their beliefs shift according to story need far too much.
With Chakotay its closer to a straight dichotomy, with one side being the Maquis tough guy and the other the adaptable, at ease, counselor willing to make do wherever he is with whatever he has. The latter is the more commonly used side since it fits story demands more generally, but it also leaves him being fit to the other character's needs rather than having his own views being more determining. It's a bit of a waste, which we can see whenever they do manage to remember to give him something more suitable to do. That they even ignored better developing his relationship, the non-tub kind, with Janeway really highlights the problem since the two arguing their perspectives should have really defined how Voyager approached so many of the dilemmas they found. When the writers do remember, they treat it more as conflict than difference in perspective, which further weakens both Janeway and Chakotay as it makes it a "right/wrong" issue where their command choices are put in question.
That is the biggest problem for Voyager, the command choices seeming almost random at times. That Janeway could find value in differing approaches in differing circumstances is fine, there is no reason a captain must be dogmatic about their beliefs, and that sort of more fluid captaincy would make some sense for the character. That Janeway occasionally lapses into a quasi-bipolar state, losing her temper or feeling despair could also be fine if they had built a more stable basis for the character to be working from so the audience could better appraise shifts in behavior later, but they didn't do that. They never really fully established Janeway's character in a fully coherent way. Mulgrew did a lot for her, she really is excellent in the series, but the ideas they mooted for the character are never allow to root and grow before branching, instead they sowed a bunch of seeds and pluck whatever sprout they need as circumstance arises.
There is a lot of good development in Janeway's character, some really interesting choices and methods that are worth looking at, but its hard to see or separate those things from the others since pointing to "this trait" as determining or interesting amid a dozen others that may well contradict or revise the first is difficult to do. The viewer has to decide on their version of Janeway and then ignore, retcon, or grumble about the others shown. That really doesn't work in part because the show so often writes her as more dogmatic and the franchise often treats captain's values in that way. If Voyager wanted to show her as being flexible, then they needed to establish that as a value for the show rather than showing one thing while asserting another that contradicts that perspective.
In some ways it does make Janeway more fascinating overall for having different facets to her character, but that's only in the abstract because we want to render consistent what isn't, which is almost a motto for Trek fandom. Complexity is a welcome thing, but it needs a better basis than indiscriminate whims of the writers since that at best leads to patchwork rather than unity.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:15 PM on December 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
Oh, I assume they didn't, not in those terms exactly, but I imagine they thought of the viewer and chose personalities that best worked to gain viewer interest, which would be in choosing the races best known, which are those from the Alpha Quadrant, so it works along the same lines in the end as Seven adapts to the "normal" AlphaQbased Trekverse. The whole thing wouldn't have worked as well with unknown species or Kazon, Hirogen, or whatever, it needed to be generally well known species for the most part in order for the idea to better grab the viewer and make sense in the show I think.
Regarding the depth thing, yeah, from the series I've seen, Voyager holds up well in that regard, and perhaps even better if one is able to ignore the consistency issue completely and just take some of the shows as stand alones without concern over the characterizations. Equinox looks a lot better that way for example. At the same time character building is at the heart of some of my favorite "deeper" episodes, so there are times Voyager relies on longer term identification with the characters as well. That they go back and forth between the two is of course a major part of the problem for the show.
It's irksome since some of the characters are treated pretty consistently, sometimes in not very exciting fashions, like with some of Harry and B'Elanna's traits being more stereotype based in episodes where they aren't prominent, and some characters have reasonable changes throughout the run, like Neelix who definitely needed to have his character reworked from the first couple seasons, and they did that well. It's just that the characters they're most inconsistent on are Janeway and Chakotay (with Tuvok sometimes suffering from being ignored a bit as well). They have some traits that Janeway and Chakotay consistently maintain, which is I suspect as much due to Beltran and Mulgrew as the writers at times, but their personalities, their beliefs shift according to story need far too much.
With Chakotay its closer to a straight dichotomy, with one side being the Maquis tough guy and the other the adaptable, at ease, counselor willing to make do wherever he is with whatever he has. The latter is the more commonly used side since it fits story demands more generally, but it also leaves him being fit to the other character's needs rather than having his own views being more determining. It's a bit of a waste, which we can see whenever they do manage to remember to give him something more suitable to do. That they even ignored better developing his relationship, the non-tub kind, with Janeway really highlights the problem since the two arguing their perspectives should have really defined how Voyager approached so many of the dilemmas they found. When the writers do remember, they treat it more as conflict than difference in perspective, which further weakens both Janeway and Chakotay as it makes it a "right/wrong" issue where their command choices are put in question.
That is the biggest problem for Voyager, the command choices seeming almost random at times. That Janeway could find value in differing approaches in differing circumstances is fine, there is no reason a captain must be dogmatic about their beliefs, and that sort of more fluid captaincy would make some sense for the character. That Janeway occasionally lapses into a quasi-bipolar state, losing her temper or feeling despair could also be fine if they had built a more stable basis for the character to be working from so the audience could better appraise shifts in behavior later, but they didn't do that. They never really fully established Janeway's character in a fully coherent way. Mulgrew did a lot for her, she really is excellent in the series, but the ideas they mooted for the character are never allow to root and grow before branching, instead they sowed a bunch of seeds and pluck whatever sprout they need as circumstance arises.
There is a lot of good development in Janeway's character, some really interesting choices and methods that are worth looking at, but its hard to see or separate those things from the others since pointing to "this trait" as determining or interesting amid a dozen others that may well contradict or revise the first is difficult to do. The viewer has to decide on their version of Janeway and then ignore, retcon, or grumble about the others shown. That really doesn't work in part because the show so often writes her as more dogmatic and the franchise often treats captain's values in that way. If Voyager wanted to show her as being flexible, then they needed to establish that as a value for the show rather than showing one thing while asserting another that contradicts that perspective.
In some ways it does make Janeway more fascinating overall for having different facets to her character, but that's only in the abstract because we want to render consistent what isn't, which is almost a motto for Trek fandom. Complexity is a welcome thing, but it needs a better basis than indiscriminate whims of the writers since that at best leads to patchwork rather than unity.
posted by gusottertrout at 5:15 PM on December 16, 2017 [3 favorites]
When I think about Enterprise, I can't say I really enjoyed watching any of those people, with the mild exception of Trip. I specifically don't like Captain Archer, (and I loved Quantum Leap - nothing against Scott Bakula). I am completely indifferent to most of the crew, to the point where I dunno that I could even rattle off all their full names. I just... don't feel anything much for them, positive or negative.
The real problem with Enterprise is that, even though there was nothing wrong with the set-up--even the Prequel Problem (i.e. we know what will eventually happen) was mitigated by the threat of the Temporal Cold War, that decades' worth of Trek continuity might simply be rewritten--the guys running it, Berman and Braga, not only seemed to be kind of burnt out from all the struggles on VOY, they brought their worst habits to the new series. You had your obvious fanservice character, your goofy alien (who even resembled Neelix somewhat), your neglect of characters who had a lot of room in their backstories for development simply because B&B didn't seem that interested in them. Take Travis Mayweather, who was born and grew up on a starship (AFAIK the first main cast character to have done so; the closest to that point would have been Jake Sisko), and whose family worked for a commercial shipping operation that was in danger of being made obsolete, not only by warp 5 ships like Enterprise but also by Earth's getting rid of money. There's a ton of things that they could have done with that, but there was that one episode where they met up with his family's ship and that was that. Ditto for Hoshi being the ship linguist at a time when they couldn't rely on the universal translator; episodes like "Darmok" would have been a regular occurrence. If they wanted to have guest appearances by characters from any of the other shows--any of them--well, time travel. Tons of possibilities that never got used. Not all of that is B&B's fault, as the previous series took a few seasons to find their footings, and ENT never got that chance even though the fourth season was an immense improvement, since UPN went away. But the potential was there, and not utilized.
(DISCO is also problematic from this angle because the show is so hyper-focused on Michael instead of hewing to the TNG/DS9/VOY ensemble model.)
I dunno if I agree; it seems like we've gotten a fair amount about Saru, Lorca, Tilly, Ash, Stamets et al. already. It's that DSC has been very structurally different from the TNG era shows, and that there have been so many expectations placed on it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:40 AM on December 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
The real problem with Enterprise is that, even though there was nothing wrong with the set-up--even the Prequel Problem (i.e. we know what will eventually happen) was mitigated by the threat of the Temporal Cold War, that decades' worth of Trek continuity might simply be rewritten--the guys running it, Berman and Braga, not only seemed to be kind of burnt out from all the struggles on VOY, they brought their worst habits to the new series. You had your obvious fanservice character, your goofy alien (who even resembled Neelix somewhat), your neglect of characters who had a lot of room in their backstories for development simply because B&B didn't seem that interested in them. Take Travis Mayweather, who was born and grew up on a starship (AFAIK the first main cast character to have done so; the closest to that point would have been Jake Sisko), and whose family worked for a commercial shipping operation that was in danger of being made obsolete, not only by warp 5 ships like Enterprise but also by Earth's getting rid of money. There's a ton of things that they could have done with that, but there was that one episode where they met up with his family's ship and that was that. Ditto for Hoshi being the ship linguist at a time when they couldn't rely on the universal translator; episodes like "Darmok" would have been a regular occurrence. If they wanted to have guest appearances by characters from any of the other shows--any of them--well, time travel. Tons of possibilities that never got used. Not all of that is B&B's fault, as the previous series took a few seasons to find their footings, and ENT never got that chance even though the fourth season was an immense improvement, since UPN went away. But the potential was there, and not utilized.
(DISCO is also problematic from this angle because the show is so hyper-focused on Michael instead of hewing to the TNG/DS9/VOY ensemble model.)
I dunno if I agree; it seems like we've gotten a fair amount about Saru, Lorca, Tilly, Ash, Stamets et al. already. It's that DSC has been very structurally different from the TNG era shows, and that there have been so many expectations placed on it.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:40 AM on December 17, 2017 [3 favorites]
Regarding the depth thing, yeah, from the series I've seen, Voyager holds up well in that regard, and perhaps even better if one is able to ignore the consistency issue completely and just take some of the shows as stand alones without concern over the characterizations.
I thought about this a fair bit yesterday, and I could see that. I think I would place VOY ahead of ENT on this score. It's been too long since I covered TNG to be certain, but if someone said VOY was better than TNG about depth/meaning, I'd just assume VOY produced more favorite episodes or characters for that person. It doesn't sound strange to me anymore. (It would have when VOY was airing, but the series does look a bit stronger upon rewatch.)
I would, of course, be willing to argue that DS9 was better than VOY here, but that's such a gimme it hardly bears mentioning.
Part of why this is complicated for me is that both Voyager's best and worst episodes were attempts to be deep. Like, getting away from Timeless a minute, I genuinely love Distant Origin and Unity, and both were grappling with some intriguing ideas about who we are and who we should be. They meet my personal criteria for 'deep' - I could still talk about them for hours right now. But on the other hand, the writers were trying to make deep statements with Retrospect and Elogium too, and those are episodes that literally enraged me. They're facile and horrid because someone was trying to say something, and that someone shouldn't have.
Like, the writers aren't just inconsistent about characterization and plot and whatnot, but also about how they handle stories that are supposed to be profound.
Personally, I think I'll probably just always think of Voyager as really swingy.
but that's only in the abstract because we want to render consistent what isn't, which is almost a motto for Trek fandom.
For me, the desire for consistency is rooted largely in my own experience as a storyteller. Starting when I was a kid, and up until around 2013 or so, I used to run tabletop RP like Cheeses sometimes talks about. I mean, I did this for decades before seguing to writing for money, campaigns that lasted months or years. I'm not a fan of preexisting IP either - this was almost all stuff I painstakingly assembled by hand. Like, my first reaction to the Forgotten Realms as a boy was to toss it and make something I actually liked. (*mutters about Elminster*)
To me, a 'real' storyteller should be able to close their eyes and see the world they're creating. They should know the people, the places. They should be able to improv at the drop of a hat for hours at a time about it, should be able to construct backstories effortlessly...
To me, a real storyteller should love the world they're attempting to show the audience and consistency is one of the most basic and obvious ways in which they demonstrate that. They should want the whole thing to be harmonious too, even if the episodes are relatively self-contained.
Most of Trek feels that way to me - S1-S2 TOS definitely had that feel. TNG did more often than not. DS9 and DISCO are both soaking in it. (I haven't watched The Orville, but I've been skimming and this is also a common thing that seems to draw people to it.)
VOY only feels that way sometimes, most often in connection with Seven or Neelix.
Tons of possibilities that never got used. Not all of that is B&B's fault, as the previous series took a few seasons to find their footings, and ENT never got that chance even though the fourth season was an immense improvement, since UPN went away. But the potential was there, and not utilized.
That is definitely why I felt this way, yeah. It always felt really perfunctory to me despite doing some stuff better from the get-go. ENT's approach to continuity and longer-form storytelling is what I wanted out of Voyager structurally, which made its flatness a real disappointment, and cancellation after it actually got good a bigger disappointment.
I dunno if I agree; it seems like we've gotten a fair amount about Saru, Lorca, Tilly, Ash, Stamets et al. already. It's that DSC has been very structurally different from the TNG era shows, and that there have been so many expectations placed on it.
Maybe? Part of this is the pilot leaving a bad taste in my mouth, I s'pose. The show is definitely at its best when it includes more perspectives.
posted by mordax at 11:33 AM on December 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
I thought about this a fair bit yesterday, and I could see that. I think I would place VOY ahead of ENT on this score. It's been too long since I covered TNG to be certain, but if someone said VOY was better than TNG about depth/meaning, I'd just assume VOY produced more favorite episodes or characters for that person. It doesn't sound strange to me anymore. (It would have when VOY was airing, but the series does look a bit stronger upon rewatch.)
I would, of course, be willing to argue that DS9 was better than VOY here, but that's such a gimme it hardly bears mentioning.
Part of why this is complicated for me is that both Voyager's best and worst episodes were attempts to be deep. Like, getting away from Timeless a minute, I genuinely love Distant Origin and Unity, and both were grappling with some intriguing ideas about who we are and who we should be. They meet my personal criteria for 'deep' - I could still talk about them for hours right now. But on the other hand, the writers were trying to make deep statements with Retrospect and Elogium too, and those are episodes that literally enraged me. They're facile and horrid because someone was trying to say something, and that someone shouldn't have.
Like, the writers aren't just inconsistent about characterization and plot and whatnot, but also about how they handle stories that are supposed to be profound.
Personally, I think I'll probably just always think of Voyager as really swingy.
but that's only in the abstract because we want to render consistent what isn't, which is almost a motto for Trek fandom.
For me, the desire for consistency is rooted largely in my own experience as a storyteller. Starting when I was a kid, and up until around 2013 or so, I used to run tabletop RP like Cheeses sometimes talks about. I mean, I did this for decades before seguing to writing for money, campaigns that lasted months or years. I'm not a fan of preexisting IP either - this was almost all stuff I painstakingly assembled by hand. Like, my first reaction to the Forgotten Realms as a boy was to toss it and make something I actually liked. (*mutters about Elminster*)
To me, a 'real' storyteller should be able to close their eyes and see the world they're creating. They should know the people, the places. They should be able to improv at the drop of a hat for hours at a time about it, should be able to construct backstories effortlessly...
To me, a real storyteller should love the world they're attempting to show the audience and consistency is one of the most basic and obvious ways in which they demonstrate that. They should want the whole thing to be harmonious too, even if the episodes are relatively self-contained.
Most of Trek feels that way to me - S1-S2 TOS definitely had that feel. TNG did more often than not. DS9 and DISCO are both soaking in it. (I haven't watched The Orville, but I've been skimming and this is also a common thing that seems to draw people to it.)
VOY only feels that way sometimes, most often in connection with Seven or Neelix.
Tons of possibilities that never got used. Not all of that is B&B's fault, as the previous series took a few seasons to find their footings, and ENT never got that chance even though the fourth season was an immense improvement, since UPN went away. But the potential was there, and not utilized.
That is definitely why I felt this way, yeah. It always felt really perfunctory to me despite doing some stuff better from the get-go. ENT's approach to continuity and longer-form storytelling is what I wanted out of Voyager structurally, which made its flatness a real disappointment, and cancellation after it actually got good a bigger disappointment.
I dunno if I agree; it seems like we've gotten a fair amount about Saru, Lorca, Tilly, Ash, Stamets et al. already. It's that DSC has been very structurally different from the TNG era shows, and that there have been so many expectations placed on it.
Maybe? Part of this is the pilot leaving a bad taste in my mouth, I s'pose. The show is definitely at its best when it includes more perspectives.
posted by mordax at 11:33 AM on December 17, 2017 [2 favorites]
Like, the writers aren't just inconsistent about characterization and plot and whatnot, but also about how they handle stories that are supposed to be profound.
I'd agree with that, but I'd also say that's true for the other Trek shows I've watched too. With Voyager it's more noticeable because of the character inconsistencies, but some of the TNG, TOS, and early DS9 stuff could be pretty dreadful as well but perhaps easier to smooth over in the mind because the general tone of the show gave a better feeling of unity.
The real difficulty for Trek shows is that it isn't just the viewer trying to enjoy and process individual episodes and/or a long term story arc and character development, but also fit those things into a larger franchise perspective, where the digested values from the other series and movies are also being wielded as measures for how successful, or not, the other series are. Discovery as a show on its own is pretty consistent, but it isn't being measured just as its own series but for how it works within the Star Trek franchise and connected universe of stories and values. Much of the disappointment or questions some have with the show is in how it seen as departing from expected norms for the franchise or challenging its accepted values. That's neither good or bad necessarily, it just adds another layer of difficulty and expectation that has to be met.
In some instances being part of a franchise can potentially add depth as old characters or stories are plumbed anew for added meaning that only could come from knowing the past histories of the shows, but in the same way can irritate viewers for violating what they took to be the better perspective and twisting it to something new that diminishes the previous understanding. That's where so much of the famous Trek fandom's obsession with continuity plays a role, again sometimes for good and sometimes for ill depending on who's looking and what it is being argued as important.
DS9 was able to branch out from some of the previous exploration and optimism approach by creating compelling storylines that people came to accept as defining by first latching on to an area of accepted conflict within the history of the franchise, that of the Carassian/Bajoran conflict, and then ride from that conflict into their Dominion arcs establishing a density of continuity and character that made their move from the previous exploration norms acceptable to viewers and eventually a highlight of the franchise for how involved those storylines were. It didn't abandon the older values of Trek, but modified the viewer expectations of them to fit a new framework of events.
Voyager disappointed in that way from the beginning with its choices to not follow certain story elements that seemed pressing and in not following that path to establish its own realm within the franchise, instead coasting between different elements of past history while inventing their own new ideas that often didn't build into something larger overall but came and went in shorter time periods only to be dropped for something different later.
That in itself isn't a condemnation of Voyager exactly since the stories they did tell could still work well and depth could be had both in individual episodes and as development of characters, but it does feel like a failure for ignoring the greater possibilities that accompany being part of a franchise and in choosing to minimize seemingly important elements from that history used to set up the series, like the Maquis involvement most notably. Voyager, from that angle, is clearly a disappointment for its denial of possibility and lack of consistency within the larger franchise frame and sometimes in its cavalier attitude about its own animating concern about being stranded in the Delta Quadrant without support or supply. Setting those things aside is difficult since they do form such an important part of the expectations involved with the show and affect how one sees its "reality" but that isn't the only element that informs how one might enjoy, or not enjoy, the series as the route they did choose does have its own rewards and developments to enjoy, and sometimes hate too.
The desire for consistency in this can work a bit towards making Voyager more interesting, if one can accept its path, because the viewer can try to fill in the gaps to make sense of it all. Janeway, for example, can be seen as either incoherent as a character, or more complex for the variety of responses she has to situations, or, as in my case, a bit of both as some things simply don't fit together while others seem compelling in their contradictions. Mulgrew's mention of playing her as a bit bipolar shows how the actor works to make sense of things that otherwise may not fit, which the viewer does too when they are aligned with the show. When they aren't they'll instead more often use it as proof of their opinion supporting disregard for the work. Too much built in smoothing out of rough areas for the sake of consistency can end up oversimplifying and neutering a work, too little can render it too disjointed to make sense of, all of which is both an aspect of the series and to viewer perspective, where some are willing to accept things others are not, but mostly within a fairly narrow range as intersubjective values for the most part tend to hold within a generally predictable range.
With series like Voyager, where there is a franchise history and the show ran for seven years, there are some built in checks on consistency that just come from a show lasting that long with most of the same actors. Viewers simply get used to the characters and will work with what they're given, more or less, in making sense of it all due to the investment they've made in the show. That it comes from an even larger history makes that investment greater, or the abandonment harsher. Trying to assess a show like Voyager requires taking all of that in, even if not in a fully conscious way, and adapting that information into how one reads each episode, the character arcs, the show as a whole, and as part of a larger shared universe. Many of the "best" things about Voyager, or TNG, or any series of this sort come less from their relationship to the real world directly or as exemplars of the heights of the artform in the abstract, but through their relative values or developments shown to those who have invested in the series. Or so I feel anyway, but obviously others can disagree, that is to say they can if they're able to follow that convoluted train of thought in the first place.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:06 PM on December 17, 2017
I'd agree with that, but I'd also say that's true for the other Trek shows I've watched too. With Voyager it's more noticeable because of the character inconsistencies, but some of the TNG, TOS, and early DS9 stuff could be pretty dreadful as well but perhaps easier to smooth over in the mind because the general tone of the show gave a better feeling of unity.
The real difficulty for Trek shows is that it isn't just the viewer trying to enjoy and process individual episodes and/or a long term story arc and character development, but also fit those things into a larger franchise perspective, where the digested values from the other series and movies are also being wielded as measures for how successful, or not, the other series are. Discovery as a show on its own is pretty consistent, but it isn't being measured just as its own series but for how it works within the Star Trek franchise and connected universe of stories and values. Much of the disappointment or questions some have with the show is in how it seen as departing from expected norms for the franchise or challenging its accepted values. That's neither good or bad necessarily, it just adds another layer of difficulty and expectation that has to be met.
In some instances being part of a franchise can potentially add depth as old characters or stories are plumbed anew for added meaning that only could come from knowing the past histories of the shows, but in the same way can irritate viewers for violating what they took to be the better perspective and twisting it to something new that diminishes the previous understanding. That's where so much of the famous Trek fandom's obsession with continuity plays a role, again sometimes for good and sometimes for ill depending on who's looking and what it is being argued as important.
DS9 was able to branch out from some of the previous exploration and optimism approach by creating compelling storylines that people came to accept as defining by first latching on to an area of accepted conflict within the history of the franchise, that of the Carassian/Bajoran conflict, and then ride from that conflict into their Dominion arcs establishing a density of continuity and character that made their move from the previous exploration norms acceptable to viewers and eventually a highlight of the franchise for how involved those storylines were. It didn't abandon the older values of Trek, but modified the viewer expectations of them to fit a new framework of events.
Voyager disappointed in that way from the beginning with its choices to not follow certain story elements that seemed pressing and in not following that path to establish its own realm within the franchise, instead coasting between different elements of past history while inventing their own new ideas that often didn't build into something larger overall but came and went in shorter time periods only to be dropped for something different later.
That in itself isn't a condemnation of Voyager exactly since the stories they did tell could still work well and depth could be had both in individual episodes and as development of characters, but it does feel like a failure for ignoring the greater possibilities that accompany being part of a franchise and in choosing to minimize seemingly important elements from that history used to set up the series, like the Maquis involvement most notably. Voyager, from that angle, is clearly a disappointment for its denial of possibility and lack of consistency within the larger franchise frame and sometimes in its cavalier attitude about its own animating concern about being stranded in the Delta Quadrant without support or supply. Setting those things aside is difficult since they do form such an important part of the expectations involved with the show and affect how one sees its "reality" but that isn't the only element that informs how one might enjoy, or not enjoy, the series as the route they did choose does have its own rewards and developments to enjoy, and sometimes hate too.
The desire for consistency in this can work a bit towards making Voyager more interesting, if one can accept its path, because the viewer can try to fill in the gaps to make sense of it all. Janeway, for example, can be seen as either incoherent as a character, or more complex for the variety of responses she has to situations, or, as in my case, a bit of both as some things simply don't fit together while others seem compelling in their contradictions. Mulgrew's mention of playing her as a bit bipolar shows how the actor works to make sense of things that otherwise may not fit, which the viewer does too when they are aligned with the show. When they aren't they'll instead more often use it as proof of their opinion supporting disregard for the work. Too much built in smoothing out of rough areas for the sake of consistency can end up oversimplifying and neutering a work, too little can render it too disjointed to make sense of, all of which is both an aspect of the series and to viewer perspective, where some are willing to accept things others are not, but mostly within a fairly narrow range as intersubjective values for the most part tend to hold within a generally predictable range.
With series like Voyager, where there is a franchise history and the show ran for seven years, there are some built in checks on consistency that just come from a show lasting that long with most of the same actors. Viewers simply get used to the characters and will work with what they're given, more or less, in making sense of it all due to the investment they've made in the show. That it comes from an even larger history makes that investment greater, or the abandonment harsher. Trying to assess a show like Voyager requires taking all of that in, even if not in a fully conscious way, and adapting that information into how one reads each episode, the character arcs, the show as a whole, and as part of a larger shared universe. Many of the "best" things about Voyager, or TNG, or any series of this sort come less from their relationship to the real world directly or as exemplars of the heights of the artform in the abstract, but through their relative values or developments shown to those who have invested in the series. Or so I feel anyway, but obviously others can disagree, that is to say they can if they're able to follow that convoluted train of thought in the first place.
posted by gusottertrout at 1:06 PM on December 17, 2017
In some instances being part of a franchise can potentially add depth as old characters or stories are plumbed anew for added meaning that only could come from knowing the past histories of the shows, but in the same way can irritate viewers for violating what they took to be the better perspective and twisting it to something new that diminishes the previous understanding.
You just summed up what people both love and hate about The Last Jedi. (Well, apart from the butthurt MRA factor, but fuck those guys.)
[DS9] didn't abandon the older values of Trek, but modified the viewer expectations of them to fit a new framework of events.
And even this is too much futzing for your more obsessive fans, as the DS9 creators learned. Little wonder, then, that genre franchises must walk such a tightrope.
Viewers simply get used to the characters and will work with what they're given, more or less, in making sense of it all due to the investment they've made in the show. That it comes from an even larger history makes that investment greater, or the abandonment harsher.
"Abandonment," in this sense, might be a good word to characterize people's feelings about the ENT finale. That thing was such a faceplant, you almost wonder if it was deliberate.
Many of the "best" things about Voyager, or TNG, or any series of this sort come less from their relationship to the real world directly or as exemplars of the heights of the artform in the abstract, but through their relative values or developments shown to those who have invested in the series. Or so I feel anyway, but obviously others can disagree, that is to say they can if they're able to follow that convoluted train of thought in the first place.
I think I agree that "many" (not all) of the franchise's high points are indeed dependent upon that level of investment. Consider, for instance, that every Best Trek Episodes list sparks a furor. That's partly a knee-jerk pop-culture response, but partly because (as with all art) we must determine for ourselves the standards by which we judge a thing, and those standards are informed by what came before, which varies vastly among individuals. We can sit here all day and breathlessly praise TNG: "First Contact" (the Riker-disguised-as-an-alien episode) or DS9: "It's Only a Paper Moon," but a relative outsider wishing to enjoy Trek in that "exemplars of the artform" sense will be limited to stuff like TNG: "Best of Both Worlds" (and there's not much in the franchise like it) or, less reliably, the films.
[for Hoshi] episodes like "Darmok" would have been a regular occurrence.
Well, not that "Darmok" sucks or anything, but that might've gotten real old real fast :p
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:04 AM on December 18, 2017
You just summed up what people both love and hate about The Last Jedi. (Well, apart from the butthurt MRA factor, but fuck those guys.)
[DS9] didn't abandon the older values of Trek, but modified the viewer expectations of them to fit a new framework of events.
And even this is too much futzing for your more obsessive fans, as the DS9 creators learned. Little wonder, then, that genre franchises must walk such a tightrope.
Viewers simply get used to the characters and will work with what they're given, more or less, in making sense of it all due to the investment they've made in the show. That it comes from an even larger history makes that investment greater, or the abandonment harsher.
"Abandonment," in this sense, might be a good word to characterize people's feelings about the ENT finale. That thing was such a faceplant, you almost wonder if it was deliberate.
Many of the "best" things about Voyager, or TNG, or any series of this sort come less from their relationship to the real world directly or as exemplars of the heights of the artform in the abstract, but through their relative values or developments shown to those who have invested in the series. Or so I feel anyway, but obviously others can disagree, that is to say they can if they're able to follow that convoluted train of thought in the first place.
I think I agree that "many" (not all) of the franchise's high points are indeed dependent upon that level of investment. Consider, for instance, that every Best Trek Episodes list sparks a furor. That's partly a knee-jerk pop-culture response, but partly because (as with all art) we must determine for ourselves the standards by which we judge a thing, and those standards are informed by what came before, which varies vastly among individuals. We can sit here all day and breathlessly praise TNG: "First Contact" (the Riker-disguised-as-an-alien episode) or DS9: "It's Only a Paper Moon," but a relative outsider wishing to enjoy Trek in that "exemplars of the artform" sense will be limited to stuff like TNG: "Best of Both Worlds" (and there's not much in the franchise like it) or, less reliably, the films.
[for Hoshi] episodes like "Darmok" would have been a regular occurrence.
Well, not that "Darmok" sucks or anything, but that might've gotten real old real fast :p
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 3:04 AM on December 18, 2017
Well, no, not everything has to be on that level. (Or on the level of the Ted Chiang story "Story of Your Life", or the movie Arrival that's based on it.) But the general idea is that there's the additional challenge of establishing communication with new cultures, and the process of learning about new cultures being influenced by how well we understood their language. One of Diane Duane's books, Spock's World, says that what we understand as Vulcan logic is really encompassed by the Vulcan word cthia, which really represents a much more complex concept than what's represented by the English word "logic." One could imagine there being similar nuances to "honor" or "glory" in Klingon.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:36 AM on December 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:36 AM on December 18, 2017 [1 favorite]
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Let's just all watch that one again instead.
posted by Servo5678 at 5:40 AM on December 14, 2017 [3 favorites]