Supernatural: Nightmare Logic
November 8, 2018 11:43 PM - Season 14, Episode 5 - Subscribe

After a hunt gone wrong leaves Maggie's whereabouts unknown, Sam, Dean, Mary and Bobby race to find her, but what they find are their own worst nightmares.
posted by numaner (12 comments total)
 
The "previously" tipped me off that it was a Djinn, and the groundskeeper was a good red herring until around the middle when it seemed to be down to just the nurse and the daughter (trivia: Leah Cairns, who played Sasha Rawlings, was previously on Supernatural as Julie Hudson, newly-cancer-free wife of Evan Hudson thanks to his deal with a crossroads demon all the way back in season 2, episode 8, and if she looks really familiar, that's because she's also Kathryn MacLaren on Travelers. I love that this show has gone on so long there's a lot of actors that's played multiple unrelated characters, but that's probably true of other long running shows).

So now we know !Bobby's tragic backstory, and now he and Mary are going to... spend some time together in Donna's cabin.... Hmmm. I'm nooot quite comfortable with Mary and any Bobby getting together. It's just weird, man.

I was going to complain about why anyone would send someone as inexperienced as Maggie out on her own, and then Bobby made the same statement to Sam and I was vindicated. Like, really?

It's actually good that they have Michael suping up different monsters. Make for more interesting MOW episodes. I know it's not everyone's cup of tea but it keeps the show fresh and gives the characters some breathing room instead of a constant sprinting across the season-long arcs.

So Garth is still around! I wonder if we'll see him again!
posted by numaner at 11:49 PM on November 8, 2018 [1 favorite]


When the djinn tried to feast on Dean's fears and then jumped back, seemingly horrified, I was wondering if he was tasting some of Michael still in there. But then he said something that made it clear he still saw Dean as Dean and not Michael, so maybe the idea was just that Dean has seen such scary shit that even the Djinn choked on his fears. It is weird how we haven't seen Michael at all since he got stabbed with the whatsis blade. No sign of Jack, either! Last we saw he was coughing up blood, so hopefully somebody's been in to check on the poor kid.

I had the nurse pegged as the bad guy early on. The story was still fun, but the bad guy nurse just fit this show's MO and the scowly groundskeeper was obviously a red herring. If they want to shock us sometime they should make the scowly groundskeeper the actual bad guy!

This was at least the second time in the recent previouslies that we saw the big Godzilla monster, so I'm wondering if it's due for a return. I imagine they were planning for it to play a big role in the Wayward Sisters spin-off, and they've got the computer model all ready to go, so hopefully stompy will show up sometime soon.

I try not to judge people with a big age difference in their romances, it's none of my business... but the Mobby (Barry?) romance just feels weird to me. Especially if Mary's only supposed to be like 30 years old, the age when she died! The actress playing Mary doesn't look 30, so there's that, but even so Bobby kind of reads more like her dad than her boyfriend. Maybe I'd be more on board if this Bobby felt more like our Bobby, but he feels like a new character to me (mostly), we're still getting to know him, so it's like Mary is just falling for a 70-year-old guy who's kind of Bobby-shaped.

That was a fun list, numaner! I had no idea they had so many recurring actors. I guess there's only so many to choose from in Vancouver!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 11:05 PM on November 9, 2018 [1 favorite]


When it became clear that the nurse/Djinn thought Dean was still Michael, I was kind of hoping Dean would play along for a bit. Maybe he could have gotten some useful info out of the Djinn!

I too am very skeptical of this Bobby/Mary romance. I'm actually becoming less of a fan of this alt universe Bobby in general as we've spend more time with him. It's just too weird to have a Bobby who isn't our Bobby. But yeah, the age gap feels off, and the whole thing is just kind of weird. I'm also just not a huge fan of what they've done with Mary as a character in general. Also the weird Bobby/Mary age gap just keeps reminding me of the whole weirdness with the fact that Mary should be like 30.

I really just want all these alt universe people to go back to their own universe. I have no interest in the new characters or in seeing the main cast interact with them, and it's just too weird to have a Bobby and Charlie that aren't actually our Bobby and Charile.
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:47 PM on November 10, 2018


I was going to complain about why anyone would send someone as inexperienced as Maggie out on her own, and then Bobby made the same statement to Sam and I was vindicated. Like, really?

Agreed. But also, supposedly Jack and Cas are off hunting together, but last we saw Cas fight, he got pretty easily overpowered and then really beaten up by that demon who wanted to be the next Crowley, and Jack is still super inexperienced, so that also doesn't sound like such a great idea to me. I know Cas often goes off on his own, but that's not the same as going off and being responsible for looking after someone who is pretty helpless. Also, Cas doesn't really seem like the best fit for teaching Jack how to fight like a human hunter. I mean, he was a human for a second like five seasons ago, but still.

And on that note, Cas can be pretty oblivious, but how could he be off road tripping with Jack and not notice the fact that Jack is apparently coughing up blood regularly? I mean, if he did notice, presumably he would immediately call Sam and Dean.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:11 PM on November 10, 2018


Well, we've only seen Jack cough up blood once, so we don't know how often he's doing it. Maybe it's still at a point where he can pass it off as a cough from a cold. Cas doesn't have much experience fighting as a human, but he's certainly seen the Winchesters in action a lot. Cas' own level of skills/vulnerability seems to vary with the needs of the plot, so we can probably assume that as long as they're not onscreen he's capable of keeping Jack out of trouble.

I think they thought all the alt-universe people would give the show a jolt and offer a chance to bring back dead fan favorite characters, but yeah, so far it's just felt more like a bunch of new people who aren't too well-defined. They must be spending most of the budget on extras, but those extras just feel... extra. If anything the writers should probably be leaning into how this Bobby and Charlie are different from the ones we knew. Like, make alt-Charlie betray the Winchesters and turn evil or something. Or if alt-Bobby got uppity and started a rogue Hunter faction with all the alt-universe people, that could've been fun. Right now it feels like we're just getting off-brand versions of the originals.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:40 PM on November 10, 2018 [1 favorite]


If anything the writers should probably be leaning into how this Bobby and Charlie are different from the ones we knew. Like, make alt-Charlie betray the Winchesters and turn evil or something. Or if alt-Bobby got uppity and started a rogue Hunter faction with all the alt-universe people, that could've been fun. Right now it feels like we're just getting off-brand versions of the originals.

Or at the very least have a little acknowledgement about how weird this is. Like dig into how strange it would be for Sam and Dean to have a Bobby around who isn't actually their Bobby. They did get into this a bit in the first episode with alt!Charlie, where Dean expected her to just up and leave all her actual friends/comrades in the other universe, but I feel like that's as close as we've come to dealing with the elephant in the room.

Also feels kind of weird that Nick has just disappeared since we saw him kill his neighbor. Oh, hey, maybe Michael hopped into Lucifer's old vessel when he left Dean (assuming he has in fact fulling left Dean). I mean, didn't Crowley turn it into a super strong vessel that could permanently contain Lucifer? Then again, I guess that would require Nick to say yes, and it's hard for me to see much motivation for him to do that again.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:34 PM on November 10, 2018


This show is so frustrating. There are so many things up in the air right now that would have been more interesting to focus on than Sam and Dean not knowing where Michael is and going on with business as usual. Dark Kaia. Nick. Michael. Jack, who may be dying. Jack's relationship with Cas, which hasn't developed much so far, even though Jack picked Cas to be his father before he was born and longed for him so much he brought him back to life. Rowena. (Is she committed to being one of the good guys now? Is she doing something to help find Michael? What about the idea that Sam is the one who will kill her? When we will see if and how that comes about?) Alt-Charlie. (Is she still with Rowena? Why? How are they getting along?) Ketch. (Is he a good guy now? Why didn't he go back to the British Men of Letters after Mary "killed" him? Or did he? Is he secretly working for them?) The British Men of Letters. Have they given up on trying to interfere with American hunters? Do they know about Michael?) Hell. (What's happening down there now that there's no leader?) Heaven. (Is it in danger of being shut down due to lack of angel power?) The angels. (How many are left? Do they know about Michael? Has Cas been in touch with them?) Chuck. (Will we ever see him again? Does he know what's going on? Does he care? Is he the god of the alternate universes as well, or do they have their own gods?)

I'm not crazy about Bobby/Mary but I'm not strongly opposed to it, as long as they don't spend a lot of time on it. I'm a lot more interested in other aspects of the plot.

Why does everyone from Apocalypse World want to be a hunter of random monsters now? You'd think some of them might have goals of their own, like going off to try to live a normal life or trying to figure out a way to get back to their own world.

I like the idea of Michael using Nick as a vessel. I could see Nick saying yes because he's horrified to realize what a bad person he is (either because he was always bad or because Lucifer damaged him) and he would rather not keep existing as himself. Maybe Michael could convince Nick that, being Lucifer's adversary, he would be able to destroy any vestiges of Lucifer left inside him and make him a good person.
posted by Redstart at 8:19 PM on November 10, 2018


like going off to try to live a normal life or trying to figure out a way to get back to their own world.

Yeah, wasn't the original idea as presented by Sam and Dean that the Apocalypse World people should come back to our universe so they can find a way to fix their world and then go back? So much for that. In fact, it seems like with Michael gone from Apocalypse World, it would actually be a good time to go back and dismantle his angel armies, although I get that at the moment they don't have a way to get back there.

Another thing that kind of bugs me: I wish Michael 2.0 weren't so one dimensionally evil (and also kind of unhinged). What I liked about the story line in S5 was that there were more shades of gray. You could at least see why Dean might feel conflicted about whether or not to say yes to Michael. And you got the sense that Michael at least saw himself as a force for good.

It would be more interesting to me if Apocalypse World Michael came to this world and at least made some attempts to fix the Heaven and Hell situation. Now, he might also do his monster experiments, but as it stands now, he's basically just the re-incarnation of Eve/Mother of all Monsters.

It's too bad, because the whole "Heaven may actually shut down" storyline was the first time I'd found angels and heaven to be actually compelling in a long time. I think that would be a much more interesting focus for the season.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:40 AM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]


Oh, you know what would be kind of interesting? To see the Wayward Sisters crew take Jack under their wing (so to speak). Claire could teach him how to be both a hunter AND a teenager/young adult. Plus Claire and Jack are sort of surrogate siblings, since Cas is Jack's chosen father, and Cas is wearing Jimmy Novack. I just think there are a lot of interesting dynamics to explore there, but alas, without a Wayward Sisters spin off, I doubt Supernatural will devote much time to it.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:45 AM on November 11, 2018 [1 favorite]


Gee, Redstart, when you write it all out like that it makes me realize just how many balls this show has in the air. (That's not even including the weird inky entity or whatever's going on with Billie the Death lady!) This show has so much plot going on, it kind of feels like they need to stop introducing new plot for a while and just deal with some of the loose ends spilling out all over the place.

If I was going to give this show's writers any one note, it would be, Think This Through. I often get the feeling they're just writing episode by episode, and we get a lot of fun episodes out of that but things kind of meander and stuff gets dropped along the way. I'm not like one of those irate Lost fans, demanding they explain every random polar bear in the jungle, but this show has a long, long list of unresolved plots and that's getting to be a problem.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 4:54 PM on November 11, 2018 [2 favorites]


the whole "Heaven may actually shut down" storyline was the first time I'd found angels and heaven to be actually compelling in a long time. I think that would be a much more interesting focus for the season.

Absolutely. When I was trying to guess how this season I might start, it occurred to me that Michael might check in with the angels here, find out the situation, conclude that there were too few angels for them to be any help or threat to him, and then deliberately kill all or most of them in order to dump all the souls in heaven back on earth as ghosts. Maybe just as a disruption that would help him attack humans. Or maybe he would recruit many of the ghosts to be in his army. Others (Bobby, Charlie, John, Kevin) would end up working against him. Something like that could still happen and I think it would be pretty interesting.

I'm also thinking that at some point Team Free Will could enlist the demons and/or souls in hell to fight for them against Michael and his army. The demons could have interpreted Sam's decree that there would be no new King of Hell as a declaration that he is now the King of Hell and they might be standing ready and (somewhat reluctantly) willing to serve him. Or Sam and Dean might be able to make some kind of deal with some powerful demons. Demons and sinners' souls might not make a very reliable army, but they might be better than nothing, especially if they have their own reasons for wanting Michael to lose.
posted by Redstart at 5:32 PM on November 11, 2018


I only sort of care about maybe a third of the random plot threads they've got floating in the ether, to say nothing of the character arcs (such as they are.) But y'all are totally on point, it's getting to be a lot, and I legit can't tell how much any of them are supposed to have anything to do with any other. (j/k, I've been watching this show since the Bush administration, of course none of it has anything to do with anything.)
posted by jameaterblues at 8:54 PM on November 11, 2018


« Older God Friended Me: Season 1 Disc...   |  The Walking Dead: What Comes A... Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments