She-Hulk: Attorney at Law: Ribbit and Rip it
October 6, 2022 6:09 AM - Season 1, Episode 8 - Subscribe

Jen finally has a good hookup! However, no man acquits himself well in this installment except for Pug and this guy who's defending Luke Jacobson.
posted by cendawanita (48 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
Started the episode post because I gotta ask:

The size of the hallway, is that an MCU money thing or LA real estate thing?
posted by cendawanita at 6:10 AM on October 6, 2022 [3 favorites]


Daredevil has the power to warp space so that long hallways tend to form around him.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:30 AM on October 6, 2022 [30 favorites]


But it's also so wide.

I'm glad Jen got one and a half good night's though, before everything went to shit. This one is hitting the too-real line real close.
posted by cendawanita at 6:33 AM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]


Ah, the superhero walk of shame. That's what you get when the rooftops aren't close enough together. It's so much easier to get away with that in NYC.

I did have a "no, don't throw a car moment. That's not reasonable property damage for the threat level!
posted by Karmakaze at 6:53 AM on October 6, 2022 [15 favorites]


“Previously on my show…”

Perfect, just perfect.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:07 AM on October 6, 2022 [13 favorites]


I gotta say that Daredevil tensely facing off against five or six guys advancing on him only to have Jen drop through the ceiling onto them made me laugh out loud. The tossed-away “She-Hulk Smash” was the icing in the cake.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:33 AM on October 6, 2022 [11 favorites]


Poor Jen! Daredevil was fun, was the TV series worth watching?
posted by ellieBOA at 10:56 AM on October 6, 2022


Worth watching for sure but the vibe is the exact opposite (but Matt isn't out of character; it's just angsty).
posted by cendawanita at 11:11 AM on October 6, 2022 [6 favorites]


I'm annoyed that the writers can clearly write "legal competence"---it's not that they couldn't all these past episodes, but they gave all the lines to Murdock. And that made him problematically hot and clinched it. Hot. Great writing/acting. But I wish Jen could also have had more bitingly competent lines like his throughout the season.
posted by zeek321 at 11:46 AM on October 6, 2022 [4 favorites]


I am over-the-moon happy with this show. All of it. She-Hulk has been my absolute fave since I picked up my first comics as an '80s kid and they're doing an excellent job with her. Like I don't think I can even be friends with anyone who hates this show.

And as thrilled as I am to see Charlie Cox as Daredevil again, Maslany's performance here just blew me away. She's great in every episode, but this one was extra. She was hilarious and compelling and SO REAL and the look she gave Matt was the hottest thing I've seen on TV in forever. She's SO GOOD.

Also, I think this is the first time we've heard explicitly that the Sokovia Accords were repealed? That seems like a super relevant thing.

...and for the record, Wong & Strange could've teleported Thanos and his entire garbage army into a hallway in Hell's Kitchen and that ended it. They'd never be heard from again.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:45 PM on October 6, 2022 [13 favorites]


She Hulk/Daredevil is the ‘ship I did not know I wanted, but it is So. Perfect.
posted by damsel with a dulcimer at 2:59 PM on October 6, 2022 [19 favorites]


She Hulk/Daredevil is the ‘ship I did not know I wanted

She-Devil.
posted by crossoverman at 3:25 PM on October 6, 2022 [7 favorites]


So, the finale will be She-Hulk vs The Incels?
posted by Marticus at 4:05 PM on October 6, 2022 [1 favorite]


Based on the way this episode ended I expect we’ll be revisiting Bruce’s warning about how the public views monsters. Especially with the incels spreading misinformation about her.

I like that the big bad reveal is very nearly a throwaway. Sort of sends the message that the incels are barely worth worrying about, or more specifically that this is a show where standard plot conventions are just there to provide a structure for fun stuff like Mr. Immortal and Daredevil, etc.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:53 PM on October 6, 2022 [1 favorite]


Oh man! It was so fun and happy...and then reminded me too much of shitty real life at the end with the surprise sex tape. I'd Hulk Smash that too.

Waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah. True to real life, but waaaaaaah.

She and Matt were super cute together, though.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:01 PM on October 6, 2022


Oh yeah, and quotes:

"The hell is a guard frog?"
"I think it's his name?"
"My name is Leap Frog, I'm just acting as a guard frog in this particular scenario?"

"Well, it's very daring to use ketchup and mustard in your color scheme."
"I'm going to tell Luke you said that."

"You ever destroyed a parking lot before?"

Lily Pad: "Heh. Subtle."

"I know you're just being mean because I kidnapped you, but words hurt, man."

"I can't believe this goon has henchmen."

"So, the devil ninja guy, he's a lawyer?" "No, I'm just a big fan of legal dramas."

'Great to be strained professional acquaintances again!"
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:05 PM on October 6, 2022 [7 favorites]


I'm not sure how this is going to work out, but this attack on Jen is clever. How to defeat an indestructible opponent? Attack her not physically, but emotionally and professionally. It reminds me of the attacks on Iron Man in the comics: you have to get past the armor and assault the man inside. I don't think we've seen the real big bad yet, the mastermind behind this.
posted by SPrintF at 7:02 PM on October 6, 2022 [3 favorites]


Seconding all praise for Maslany. (She deserves better facial CGI than this.)

And I could not be happier with how this Daredevil appearance was handled.
The whimsical turn from his Netflix presence to this (also Spider-Man: No Way Home) reminds me of when Mark Waid took over writing DD's comics series after Brian Michael Bendis' brutal (but great) run, and Matt just decided to be fun for the first bunch of issues. (Granted, in that case it was hardcore denial and repression after his life fell apart again, but still.)

I love that Jen unmasked him almost immediately, and that despite his legal arguments he's barely concealing his secret identity anyway.

I'm super happy that Jen hooked up with someone who really likes her and gets her, and I laughed out loud and clapped at Matt's costumed walk of shame / stride of pride.
posted by D.Billy at 8:01 PM on October 6, 2022 [12 favorites]


Walk of shame - best 8seconds in the MCU.

The realization that the award was a participation trophy? Perhaps, unfortunately, the most soul crushingly realistic moment in the MCU.

I love this show. I even love the janky CGI. As mentioned in an earlier post - I really like how it be seen as choosing Jen as the main character with she-hulk as a supporting cast member. I thought this was one was spectacularly well done.

An aside: I liked Netflix’ take on daredevil just fine but… the true crown jewel there was Jessica Jones. Now there’s a client who could let Jen shine because, hey!, who needs a hulk in that scenario?
posted by mce at 8:40 PM on October 6, 2022 [7 favorites]


We really need the Dora Milaje to show up and take that spear back. And beat up that smarmy dude in the process.

Also need a lot of women to stand up for She-Hulk and say "actually I would totally have done the same if I was her, those dudes are gross and terrible."
posted by emjaybee at 9:17 PM on October 6, 2022 [3 favorites]


Yeah, Jen and Matt make a really cute couple, yet at the same time, having seen Daredevil, the tonal mismatch was pretty jarring for me. I’m having a hard time imagining Matt from Daredevil Season 3 fitting into She-Hulk, Attorney at Law with its goofball humor. And Jen suddenly seemed out of place in her own show, throwing cars around with complete disregard for the legal issues that raises - kind of the whole thrust of her show up to now.

I don’t know. As much as I like both shows, I’m not convinced they’re two great tastes that taste great together.
posted by Naberius at 9:43 PM on October 6, 2022 [1 favorite]


The Wolverine-with-beauty-brushes moment was magnificent, as was the "Gosh, feels like the episode should be over, why are you still here?" fourth wall break.

Required MCU viewing, if only for the discussion on the difference between a goon and a henchman.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:19 PM on October 6, 2022 [9 favorites]


Maslany is a legend.
posted by riverlife at 10:36 PM on October 6, 2022 [5 favorites]


I'm annoyed that the writers can clearly write "legal competence"---it's not that they couldn't all these past episodes, but they gave all the lines to Murdock. And that made him problematically hot and clinched it. Hot. Great writing/acting. But I wish Jen could also have had more bitingly competent lines like his throughout the season.

Well, yes and no... a respondent's lawyer can't just fling questions at a plaintiff from the bar. The judge would have censured him for that. The plaintiff would need to be sworn in.

But yes, Jen should have prepped her idiot client, and uncovered that misuse of the product, and advised him to discontinue the suit. It never would have made it to court. Certainly not quick enough for his legs to still be in dressings. But that wouldn't have been very interesting to watch. Competent litigation is not particularly interesting, believe me.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 12:14 AM on October 7, 2022


Anger management: why She-Hulk is such a powerful symbol of female rage [Guardian / Archive]
posted by ellieBOA at 2:53 AM on October 7, 2022 [1 favorite]


Shulkdevil
posted by sixswitch at 4:02 AM on October 7, 2022


It occurs to me that Jen spends so much time reacting to things that the important details often slip from her field of attention..

For instance, the plaintiff stating he had 3rd degree burns on both legs.. and yet not acting accordingly should have tipped her off to him being a fabulist at best and a outright liar at worst.
posted by Faintdreams at 5:27 AM on October 7, 2022


I am sad next week is the finale.

This felt like simultaneously the most joyous and also saddest episode MCU TV to date.
posted by Faintdreams at 5:29 AM on October 7, 2022 [2 favorites]


a respondent's lawyer can't just fling questions at a plaintiff from the bar. The judge would have censured him for that. The plaintiff would need to be sworn in.

There are a lot of issues with the courtroom scene in terms of procedure. They were there to argue a motion about the production of evidence, and the judge ends up dismissing the case sua sponte and IIRC without a motion. In real life, if the plaintiff made such an admission in court, it's likely defense counsel would have moved to dismiss, at absolute best the court would have directed plaintiff's counsel to file a response showing why the court should not dismiss, they would probably have had another hearing, and an order issue some time later. With a couple of lines of dialogue, they disposed of all of this business and got to where they needed to story to go.

As a lawyer, though one who has not been inside a courtroom in a long time, I make peace with these sorts of issues by allowing for some license to stage a show economically. The show doesn't swear in a witness for the same reason shows and movies almost never show a character paying for a taxi: nobody needs to see it for the story to proceed. The episode would not have been improved by strict adherence to courtroom procedure.
posted by gauche at 5:34 AM on October 7, 2022 [9 favorites]


I am really loving this show. The last scene of this ep -- with Jen's humiliation and her subsequent rage -- really landed with me in a way that few of the MCU "peril to the main character" scenarios have. Poor Jen gets publicly shamed in front her parents, her friends and her colleagues; it was brutal and awful and made me feel for her in a way that hit far harder than "superpowered person is physically threatened", which is where most of the MCU finales end up. The show is very funny but also very very accurate about some of the ways it's extremely tough being a professional woman, or even just a woman full stop. I mean, you laugh, but the 'female lawyer of the year' being a participation award was toe-curlingly accurate (well done Mallory for calling it out).

I liked the fake out about getting a sample of She-Hulk's blood -- that was some nice misdirection over the last few eps, making us viewers think that the threat to Jen was going to be something physical like a poison, where the plan all along was the humiliation of the sex tape.
posted by damsel with a dulcimer at 8:19 AM on October 7, 2022 [5 favorites]


Yeah, Jen and Matt make a really cute couple, yet at the same time, having seen Daredevil, the tonal mismatch was pretty jarring for me. I’m having a hard time imagining Matt from Daredevil Season 3 fitting into She-Hulk, Attorney at Law with its goofball humor.

That, to me, is part of the charm, both of the comics and of the MCU; these worlds, with very different themes and overall vibes, collide, and it can be kind of funny. The whole Infinity Gauntlet arc was resolved in large part by, of all people, Ant-Man. Tony Stark had real and visible difficulties dealing with the fact that he had to work with a wizard. Sometimes, it works even when there's no direct engagement: in an old issue of Fantastic Four, in which the FF and Avengers are fighting Galactus again (for those unfamiliar with the comics, Galactus is a giant alien who eats planets; he's tried to chow down on Earth several times), Spider-Man and Daredevil just sit on a rooftop and watch (well, Daredevil "watches"), because what are they gonna do? Matt can be all grim 'n' gritty in Hell's Kitchen, but when he tries to do his hallway fighting thing in LA, Jen cuts it short, because it's her town.

I guess that what I'm trying to say is that the fact that they don't really have compatible worlds is what makes it fun; that is probably why Matt is wearing the yellow-and-red costume, which was comics Daredevil's original outfit, and which has typically been summed up as "this is how you can tell that he's blind."
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:37 AM on October 7, 2022 [13 favorites]


The show definitely could do better at demonstrating Jen as a competent lawyer and maintaining consistency. If you care about those things, which I barely do because it's just more fun to go with it.

The "throw the car" thing was a good example on two levels (at least): One, I'd expect a competent lawyer to not do that because it's gratuitous property damage. Two, I'd expect a competent hulk to just ... jump and land on the getaway car or near the escaping person. Hulks can jump far! Granted Jen is still learning the Hulk ropes but c'mon.

We also loved the "walk of shame" / "stride of pride" -- that was worth the price of admission for the episode, maybe the entire series.

Even though it's a big tonal shift for Matt Murdock from the last season of Daredevil to this, I'm here for it. I hope that they stick with this rather than dark and gritty.
posted by jzb at 10:22 AM on October 7, 2022 [4 favorites]


I guess I don't have that much of an issue with the DD tonal change. We see it all the time in the comics after all! Different writers, different takes, different levels of comedy and grim to serve the story at hand.

Plus, lawyerly stuff aside - I really dug the flirty arguing, mutual respect and fun fighting parts of the episode. Jen getting humiliated - not so much.
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:30 AM on October 7, 2022 [3 favorites]


I guess I don't have that much of an issue with the DD tonal change. We see it all the time in the comics after all! Different writers, different takes, different levels of comedy and grim to serve the story at hand.

I've always taken this sort of thing as a tacit exploration of how one's self-perception is different from how others perceive them. Like, Matt Murdock probably feels overwhelmed and hopeless a lot of the time, taking on pro bono cases by day while Daredeviling at night, so stories from his own perspective have him hanging by a thread, feeling incompetent and underprepared. But from Jen's perspective, he is none of those things because she doesn't have access to his inner life, his insecurities and struggles. She just sees him as a legal adversary who had a stronger case in the courtroom today. We're seeing this show from her side, with access to her struggles and insecurities and concerns.
posted by gauche at 1:43 PM on October 7, 2022 [16 favorites]


You guys, Daredevil was barefoot and carrying his boots the next morning. I love this show. I had to explain this to my partner, so in case others didn't catch it - women go barefoot with shoes in hand the next morning because it sucks to stuff yourself back into high heels after a night of fun, particularly when you're tired, hungover, sneaking out of some person's place, etc.

As my confused partner noted, Daredevils boots would not have or engender any of those problems. So whatever marvelous person wrote this episode was just clearly like - FUCK IT, WE'RE GONNA MAKE HIM DO THIS THE EXACT PERFECT WAY DOWN TO THE GODDAMN SHOES.
posted by BlueBlueElectricBlue at 4:54 PM on October 7, 2022 [29 favorites]


I think Jen throwing cars (and destroying TVs and roaring) gets to the heart of what this show has been about since the beginning. She doesn't want to be a hero/monster like her cousin. She wants her show to be a rom-com "lawyer show."

And on the whole, it's been working out for her. She-Hulk has helped Jen get ahead in her career, meet guys, and become something of a celebrity.

But now, She-Hulk has smashed all that. The life she's built is at risk and she realizes that despite everything, she may still be a monster.

So exactly what does it mean to be She-Hulk? How does Jen embrace all that dark and all that light? Is it a superpower or (as Bruce Banner first saw it) an inescapable nightmare?

I can't wait to see how the season ends!
posted by PlusDistance at 4:57 PM on October 7, 2022 [6 favorites]


FUCK IT, WE'RE GONNA MAKE HIM DO THIS THE EXACT PERFECT WAY DOWN TO THE GODDAMN SHOES.

He needs some of those folding ballet flats.
posted by jeoc at 6:31 PM on October 7, 2022 [3 favorites]


This is hands-down my favourite show in a long time.

Since it is so good, I have been trying to put my finger on the thing that’s bumping me. I thought it was the talk-to-camera bits, which are not as good as I’d want them to be. But that’s not entirely it. I think it’s the combo of the self-aware “meta” stuff (talk of “set pieces” and “episodes”) combined with trying to have real meaningful drama (this episode’s conclusion). That’s a hard line to walk, because if your character acknowledges that they’re in a TV show, why should we be expected to invest emotionally in the fictional drama? Feels like you got your Naked Gun in my Gray’s Anatomy, or vice versa. That’s about as well as I can figure it out.

I am 1,000,000% here for more case-of-the-week business. The first 3/4 of this episode was a pure delight. And I see someone else was reminded of The Tick — thank goodness, it wasn’t just me.

And I was trying to figure out where I know Maslany from—not Orphan Black. I thought it was a sitcom of some sort but no, it was Canadian teen ranch drama/soap opera Heartland. Ha.
posted by TangoCharlie at 12:30 AM on October 8, 2022 [1 favorite]


because if your character acknowledges that they’re in a TV show, why should we be expected to invest emotionally in the fictional drama?

The same way you invest in any fictional drama - you just suspend your disbelief and go for it. Adding a layer of meta on top doesn't make it more or less fictional. Her awareness doesn't change how much you might feel when you watch her get humiliated in front of her family, friends and colleagues at the end. It's a tonal shift, sure, but then dramas have comedy in them, too.

(She deserves better facial CGI than this.)

The CGI has been a mixed bag in this series, for sure. I don't think any of it has been downright terrible. And the final moment of this scene, as She-Hulk looks at the camera, playing the drama of having just lost control and looking at us with pleading eyes... that's some damn fine CGI work, as far as I'm concerned. It definitely portrayed the emotions that the story was after.

I'm probably never going to look at She-Hulk and mistake her for a real person - but then I also know that 7 foot green skinned people aren't real, so there's always going to be a requirement for me to suspend my disbelief here.

I really liked this episode a lot. I don't think I care whether Daredevil from Netflix feels like the same person here. This is like when The Practice (a legal drama) and Ally McBeal (a sitcom/dramedy) crossed over and the dramatic characters had to be wacky. It's a trope. I can go with it.
posted by crossoverman at 3:42 AM on October 8, 2022 [6 favorites]


I enjoyed this episode a lot. I think people expected Daredevil to keep being Red Batman, and there’s more to Matt Murdock than that. Also I liked the point above about how this show is written from Jen’s perspective, so we see people as she sees them.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:45 AM on October 8, 2022 [3 favorites]


Now this was the well-written, punchy TV that I really love watching. What an intensely wonderful experience!
posted by rebent at 6:22 AM on October 8, 2022 [1 favorite]


Re: Daredevil's tone

These are comic books. Wolverine in Squirrel Girl is going to be different than Wolverine in Wolverine.
posted by yonega at 7:43 AM on October 8, 2022 [13 favorites]


I think it’s the combo of the self-aware “meta” stuff (talk of “set pieces” and “episodes”) combined with trying to have real meaningful drama (this episode’s conclusion). That’s a hard line to walk, because if your character acknowledges that they’re in a TV show, why should we be expected to invest emotionally in the fictional drama?

I think the premise is supposed to feel more like there's a TV show that only Jennifer is aware of documenting her actual life. The drama's not "fictional" from her perspective. She knows something's up because of what the magic TV producers are choosing to film. She asks, "Why are you guys still here?" not "How come I haven't stopped existing for a week yet?"

(Which doesn't quite makes sense if you look at it too carefully, but I don't think there's any version of fourth-wall breaking that could.)
posted by straight at 12:28 AM on October 9, 2022


I've always taken this sort of thing as a tacit exploration of how one's self-perception is different from how others perceive them. Like, Matt Murdock probably feels overwhelmed and hopeless a lot of the time, taking on pro bono cases by day while Daredeviling at night, so stories from his own perspective have him hanging by a thread, feeling incompetent and underprepared. But from Jen's perspective, he is none of those things because she doesn't have access to his inner life, his insecurities and struggles. She just sees him as a legal adversary who had a stronger case in the courtroom today. We're seeing this show from her side, with access to her struggles and insecurities and concerns.

I think this is exactly right. When we watch Doctor Strange's movie, he's a human being trying to cope with a crazy world of magic. But when he meets the Avengers in their movies, he's an aloof mysterious almost god-like figure (although not with Wong in the initial scene from his perspective). And in Spider-Man's movie, he's Peter's goofy exasperated dad who wears embarrassing sweats with his magic cape.

It works that way in comics all the time. In Justice League, Batman is a man so perfectly prepared for anything that he intimidates Superman. In his own comic (his point of view), he can wake up in a crazy trap because the Penguin's goons got the drop on him.
posted by straight at 12:45 AM on October 9, 2022 [4 favorites]


I'm annoyed that the writers can clearly write "legal competence"---it's not that they couldn't all these past episodes, but they gave all the lines to Murdock.

The impression I got in the courtroom scene was that Jennifer had the correct legal argument regarding discovery but Matt was just able to plead for the judge to make an exception ("You're endangering the children of the poor superheroes!")
posted by straight at 12:53 AM on October 9, 2022 [2 favorites]


"The size of the hallway, is that an MCU money thing or LA real estate thing?" - cendawanita
Beloved Spouse, who grew up not far from LA, asserted: "probably a re-purposed warehouse" on the hallway width issue. Which does seem to fit the building we saw from the outside.

Now, I admit, I've been on the fence about the Humiliation Conga Jen has been enduring. But I also never read the Savage run, where Jen was coming to terms with being a Hulk. I started with the Sensational run, where Jen more or less had a handle on it, and could enjoy it.

And my read on Jen getting caught by surprise by idiot clients (Blonsky, Leap-Frog) is that she's getting pulled in so many directions, and getting so little help from her office (not blaming Nikki, Nikki is wonderful), she can't be her best lawyer self. Holloway keeps forcing her to take cases where she cannot say to the idiot client: "If you lie to me, by omission or commission, I walk and you can find some other representation."

I know they couldn't/wouldn't/shouldn't do it for a number of reasons, but I would be pretty happy if, at the end of the finale, Jen is sitting on the curb, dejected, and a limo pulls up. Limo door opens, and Virginia "Pepper" Potts steps out, and offers Jen a hand up. "Ms. Walters, I need a superhuman lawyer, and you come highly recommended. "

(IMO, one of the missed opportunities of the MCU as we had it is that we did not get to see Pepper as competent bad-ass CEO.)

I would also accept Hope van Dyne (shorter move, up the coast, instead of across the country) or Kate Bishop (better comedic potential, especially if we could get Yelena Belova along for the ride). Or King Valkyrie, hiring Jen to help administer New Asgard holdings in the US.

Any of those would (for me) scratch that same need that emjaybee mentioned: having someone else standing on Jen's side.
posted by Mutant Lobsters from Riverhead at 4:36 PM on October 10, 2022 [3 favorites]


Daredevil/She-Hulk is actually fun and sexy! I'm kind of sad that Disney has (rightly) decided the Charlie Cox Daredevil character is Important IP, because that means they're not going to get more time together.

Man, I have enjoyed Disney+ more than I knew was possible for the last couple of weeks. But she better get a cheerful ending to the finale. And maybe kill Josh? That seems fair.
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:24 PM on October 12, 2022 [1 favorite]


the discussion on the difference between a goon and a henchman.

That was some very Venture Bros/Harley Quinn style banter, maybe my favorite part of the ep. Also, that it was coming from Daredevil -- who probably knows and understands "the streets" better than any other MCU character except maybe Luke Cage -- makes it even better.
posted by Saxon Kane at 1:58 PM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]


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