The White Lotus: Abductions
December 4, 2022 9:46 PM - Season 2, Episode 6 - Subscribe
Ethan grows suspicious of Cam. Tanya gives Portia an opaque warning about Jack. Lucia helps the Di Grassos search for long-lost relatives.
Tanya gives Portia an opaque warning about Jack.
Tanya's line delivery of that was chef's kiss. Strong hunch indeed.
Is Ethan going to blow his top?
I don't think he's a conniving plotter anymore, just repressed. I do think he'll blow his top.
Was the picture of the cowboy she was staring at anyone she knew? (Was that Greg?)
Pretty sure that's young Greg. Uh oh, Tanya. (also, Daaang Tanya! I guess it is like riding a bicycle!) Oh my goodness I just realized it was Greg that insisted on this vacation.
Did Jack keep Portia out on the town by design?
Pretty sure he did, so that Quentin could do whatever scheming he needed to with Tanya (he's very pointedly staring from the doorway at Jack and Portia as they leave).
Ooh, the kind-of good points Jack was making to Portia in order to deflect and redirect while he was gaslighting/conning her made my skin crawl. Spot on, exactly the kind of thing that kind of manipulative operator would say. Portia seems to be catching on tho.
What is Alessi's relationship to Lucia?
Alessio might be a relative or ex-boyfriend. I think the pimp narrative is Lucia's attempt to manipulate Albie. She does think he's sweet tho. Gosh, I hope Albie doesn't do a nice-guy-who-murders turn.
Pretty sure Harper is conspiring with Cam to prank Ethan, to make Ethan feel what she felt when she found that condom. That kind of pettiness tracks with what we know of Harper, and Cam goes along with it because he finds it "hilarious". But I don't think she hooked up with Cam at all.
A lot of the characters on this show act with impunity, because consequences or blowback don't occur to them, or they're so cynical that they don't care. And this show is the slow avalanche of those consequences as they fall upon them.
Dag, I have other thoughts kinda half-percolating, but it's too soon after the show.
posted by ishmael at 10:47 PM on December 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Tanya's line delivery of that was chef's kiss. Strong hunch indeed.
Is Ethan going to blow his top?
I don't think he's a conniving plotter anymore, just repressed. I do think he'll blow his top.
Was the picture of the cowboy she was staring at anyone she knew? (Was that Greg?)
Pretty sure that's young Greg. Uh oh, Tanya. (also, Daaang Tanya! I guess it is like riding a bicycle!) Oh my goodness I just realized it was Greg that insisted on this vacation.
Did Jack keep Portia out on the town by design?
Pretty sure he did, so that Quentin could do whatever scheming he needed to with Tanya (he's very pointedly staring from the doorway at Jack and Portia as they leave).
Ooh, the kind-of good points Jack was making to Portia in order to deflect and redirect while he was gaslighting/conning her made my skin crawl. Spot on, exactly the kind of thing that kind of manipulative operator would say. Portia seems to be catching on tho.
What is Alessi's relationship to Lucia?
Alessio might be a relative or ex-boyfriend. I think the pimp narrative is Lucia's attempt to manipulate Albie. She does think he's sweet tho. Gosh, I hope Albie doesn't do a nice-guy-who-murders turn.
Pretty sure Harper is conspiring with Cam to prank Ethan, to make Ethan feel what she felt when she found that condom. That kind of pettiness tracks with what we know of Harper, and Cam goes along with it because he finds it "hilarious". But I don't think she hooked up with Cam at all.
A lot of the characters on this show act with impunity, because consequences or blowback don't occur to them, or they're so cynical that they don't care. And this show is the slow avalanche of those consequences as they fall upon them.
Dag, I have other thoughts kinda half-percolating, but it's too soon after the show.
posted by ishmael at 10:47 PM on December 4, 2022 [7 favorites]
Actually, I guess Portia is catching on because Jack half-revealed a lot of plot in a budweiser haze.
posted by ishmael at 10:58 PM on December 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ishmael at 10:58 PM on December 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also Portia's Godfather shirt with the car giddily blowing up in cartoon colors, madon'.
posted by ishmael at 11:12 PM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by ishmael at 11:12 PM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is entirely tangential to the show, but Will Sharpe surely must be en route to an MCU role, as maybe the first writer/director/star*? He’s in ridiculously good shape, is a fantastic writer/director, and his partner is already in it (Alterna-Loki), so he has the contacts.
*I realize technically Taika Waititi technically hits this trifecta, but it’s not really a lead acting role.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:24 PM on December 4, 2022
*I realize technically Taika Waititi technically hits this trifecta, but it’s not really a lead acting role.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 11:24 PM on December 4, 2022
It suddenly occurred to me that Nicolo is not just a drug dealer but also a contract killer hired to murder Tanya....
On the matter of Will Sharpe's physique and good looks. I don't usually admire the male stars of TV shows, but I did think tonight that I wished he'd had a slightly more heroic, less passive role. He's great looking — that hair! And he's unusually well-built — that bod! I've never seen him in anything else, but I gather the stuff he has written/directed has been very well-received! And Wikipedia tells me, he did a year at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art.... The biggest shock I've had with this show to date is to realize both Ethan and Cam were Brits!
posted by Violet Blue at 11:41 PM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
On the matter of Will Sharpe's physique and good looks. I don't usually admire the male stars of TV shows, but I did think tonight that I wished he'd had a slightly more heroic, less passive role. He's great looking — that hair! And he's unusually well-built — that bod! I've never seen him in anything else, but I gather the stuff he has written/directed has been very well-received! And Wikipedia tells me, he did a year at the Royal Academy of Dramatic Art.... The biggest shock I've had with this show to date is to realize both Ethan and Cam were Brits!
posted by Violet Blue at 11:41 PM on December 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
My theory is that Tanya's husband is the fabulous gay man's one true love (seen in the photo) and they have conspired together to set Tanya up to blow a morality or fidelity clause in the prenup. Assume the drug dealer is an escort and Tanya's encounter in him was recorded. That's how the fabulous gay man expects to get the money to maintain his lifestyle. (Sorry, I can't remember any names).
posted by prefpara at 5:34 AM on December 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by prefpara at 5:34 AM on December 5, 2022 [15 favorites]
I was in Italy a couple months ago and I did exactly what the Di Grassos did. I found the town where my people came from, drove an hour out into the mountains to find an old, mostly abandoned village filled with stray dogs. I asked around, found someone who knew someone with my name, and went to go meet them. Fortunately for me it went better than it did for them, only we never were able to find a direct relation.
I can't even begin to guess what's going on with this show. Everyone has motives for everything. I'm really enjoying it much more than the first season.
posted by bondcliff at 6:25 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I can't even begin to guess what's going on with this show. Everyone has motives for everything. I'm really enjoying it much more than the first season.
posted by bondcliff at 6:25 AM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
More satisfying would be Tanya killing Greg. Or anyone killing Greg, honestly.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 6:27 AM on December 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by jeweled accumulation at 6:27 AM on December 5, 2022 [6 favorites]
Also re: the Di Grasso’s, if his mom was named Di Grasso, wouldn’t she have changed her name when she got married, therefore these men would NOT be named Di Grasso? Unless there’s something I’m missing (entirely possible!)
posted by jeweled accumulation at 6:31 AM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by jeweled accumulation at 6:31 AM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
My theory is that Tanya's husband is the fabulous gay man's one true love (seen in the photo) and they have conspired together to set Tanya up to blow a morality or fidelity clause in the prenup.
I did not know that was a thing. So even if you sign a pre-nup, if you cheat you can lose half of everything in a divorce? I wonder how common that is.
I guess even if you're signing a pre-nup, that's one way to show your devotion. Feels counter-intuitive, but I can see why people would agree to that.
posted by ishmael at 8:44 AM on December 5, 2022
I did not know that was a thing. So even if you sign a pre-nup, if you cheat you can lose half of everything in a divorce? I wonder how common that is.
I guess even if you're signing a pre-nup, that's one way to show your devotion. Feels counter-intuitive, but I can see why people would agree to that.
posted by ishmael at 8:44 AM on December 5, 2022
Is Albie going to do a True Romance?
posted by ftm at 9:16 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by ftm at 9:16 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I would not have clocked Greg in the photo if someone hadn't speculated that he might have been on the phone with someone other than his Stateside side piece. Awww shit.
I really hope Albie's plot is something a little less tired than the "buying a prostitute from her pimp" scam.
posted by whuppy at 10:18 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I really hope Albie's plot is something a little less tired than the "buying a prostitute from her pimp" scam.
posted by whuppy at 10:18 AM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
It seemed clear that Greg was the cowboy last episode, now it's obvious. The question is, when will Tanya figure it out - it seemed like she was about to get there, but then drug/pimp came in to conveniently distract her.
I've found the previous two episodes a bit of a lull, but this one really picked up. A few thoughts:
-I think either Ethan will either snap (and perhaps suicidally so - I could see a head-on collision with Cam in one last jet ski outing) or will actually experience some sort of personal growth. At least, he and Harper got close to something approaching growth this episode. And while White's world of the uber rich is indeed bleak, just like Quinn last season, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one or two of these characters got a hopeful ending.
-Harper is clearly playing games as some sort of last ditch attempt, which she's learned from Daphne. I don't blame her - she's tried being seductive, and she's tried having an honest conversation, and nothing is quite getting through to Ethan. But the threat of infidelity - with his previous roommate with a track record of going after women in college Ethan was into - is clearly at least getting a reaction.
-The moment of Dominic and Albie both getting out of the car to "save" Lucia, their imagined "pretty wounded bird", was excellently done. Truly, like father like son. We know they both grew up in a house with an unhappy and cheated on mother, and they've clearly learned similar (wrong) lessons from it. A fun twist here would be if Portia managed to "save" Albie from deception - but I'm not betting on it.
-I still think Tanya will somehow foil the plot against her with humorous clumsiness.
-That none of the Di Grasso's bothered to even learn a smidgeon of Italian is a pretty bad look on all of them.
posted by coffeecat at 10:42 AM on December 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
I've found the previous two episodes a bit of a lull, but this one really picked up. A few thoughts:
-I think either Ethan will either snap (and perhaps suicidally so - I could see a head-on collision with Cam in one last jet ski outing) or will actually experience some sort of personal growth. At least, he and Harper got close to something approaching growth this episode. And while White's world of the uber rich is indeed bleak, just like Quinn last season, I wouldn't be surprised if at least one or two of these characters got a hopeful ending.
-Harper is clearly playing games as some sort of last ditch attempt, which she's learned from Daphne. I don't blame her - she's tried being seductive, and she's tried having an honest conversation, and nothing is quite getting through to Ethan. But the threat of infidelity - with his previous roommate with a track record of going after women in college Ethan was into - is clearly at least getting a reaction.
-The moment of Dominic and Albie both getting out of the car to "save" Lucia, their imagined "pretty wounded bird", was excellently done. Truly, like father like son. We know they both grew up in a house with an unhappy and cheated on mother, and they've clearly learned similar (wrong) lessons from it. A fun twist here would be if Portia managed to "save" Albie from deception - but I'm not betting on it.
-I still think Tanya will somehow foil the plot against her with humorous clumsiness.
-That none of the Di Grasso's bothered to even learn a smidgeon of Italian is a pretty bad look on all of them.
posted by coffeecat at 10:42 AM on December 5, 2022 [9 favorites]
Definitely Grey in the photo. He is on the right, and Quentin is on the left.
Clearly Tanya has been set up with the gigolo. They also encouraged her to take a lot, lot of blow. So either Greg is going to bust into the room or they are recording the encounter. Or else there is some plot to encourage her to take more and maybe laced drugs during the sexual encounter leading to a fatal overdose? Maybe another scenario to get her money? Jack seems awfully sure that it is a fait accompli when he talks to Portia
I wonder now if it isn't Portia that becomes the redemptive character. The questions she was asking Jack, and Tanya's personality assessment of her over breakfast seemed really to hit home. I can't remember exactly the line, but something about being so lost you will walk into situations and be even more lost. I need to go rewatch that segment to see if that was what Tanya said to her. And then of course that is exactly what Tanya has done.
posted by nanook at 12:14 PM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Clearly Tanya has been set up with the gigolo. They also encouraged her to take a lot, lot of blow. So either Greg is going to bust into the room or they are recording the encounter. Or else there is some plot to encourage her to take more and maybe laced drugs during the sexual encounter leading to a fatal overdose? Maybe another scenario to get her money? Jack seems awfully sure that it is a fait accompli when he talks to Portia
I wonder now if it isn't Portia that becomes the redemptive character. The questions she was asking Jack, and Tanya's personality assessment of her over breakfast seemed really to hit home. I can't remember exactly the line, but something about being so lost you will walk into situations and be even more lost. I need to go rewatch that segment to see if that was what Tanya said to her. And then of course that is exactly what Tanya has done.
posted by nanook at 12:14 PM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
My theory is that Tanya's husband is the fabulous gay man's one true love (seen in the photo) and they have conspired together to set Tanya up to blow a morality or fidelity clause in the prenup.
This was my assumption too, from Greg's first bellyaching about Portia being there (a babysitter makes it harder to get Tanya into a dangerous spot), to his explanation about having to go back to the States for "work" because he has to support himself due to the prenup, to his "she has no idea" phone call, to Quentin showing up so suddenly and taking such an obviously ulterior interest in Tanya. Once she has violated the "lifestyle clause," Greg files for divorce and collects a giant payout and he theoretically shares the spoils with the desperate-for-cash Quentin. I just thought that it was going to be Jack who coaxed her into the affair.
It would be a delight if Greg returned next week, somehow it came out that his plan was never to cut Quentin in (or maybe it comes out that Quentin isn't going to cut Jack in), and either Greg or Quentin (or both?) get their karmic comeuppance. Then Tanya cruises back home and she's ready for Season 3.
posted by AgentRocket at 12:33 PM on December 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
This was my assumption too, from Greg's first bellyaching about Portia being there (a babysitter makes it harder to get Tanya into a dangerous spot), to his explanation about having to go back to the States for "work" because he has to support himself due to the prenup, to his "she has no idea" phone call, to Quentin showing up so suddenly and taking such an obviously ulterior interest in Tanya. Once she has violated the "lifestyle clause," Greg files for divorce and collects a giant payout and he theoretically shares the spoils with the desperate-for-cash Quentin. I just thought that it was going to be Jack who coaxed her into the affair.
It would be a delight if Greg returned next week, somehow it came out that his plan was never to cut Quentin in (or maybe it comes out that Quentin isn't going to cut Jack in), and either Greg or Quentin (or both?) get their karmic comeuppance. Then Tanya cruises back home and she's ready for Season 3.
posted by AgentRocket at 12:33 PM on December 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
Tanya was definitely being recorded in that compromised position--you can see a red light in some frames from that scene.
The recording is good news for her survival, if they're leaning on that instead of her getting killed. And purportedly Mike White has said that Jennifer Coolidge is making the show with him as long as he's doing it...and they've been renewed for a third season. So I'm betting she lives.
posted by knotty knots at 1:00 PM on December 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
The recording is good news for her survival, if they're leaning on that instead of her getting killed. And purportedly Mike White has said that Jennifer Coolidge is making the show with him as long as he's doing it...and they've been renewed for a third season. So I'm betting she lives.
posted by knotty knots at 1:00 PM on December 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
If only Portia could have made herself tolerate Albie, things might have turned out differently for so many!
Drunk Jack was really some of the best drunk acting I've seen.
If Tanya makes it to season 3, that means she's a guest and still has $$ so ...
posted by armacy at 1:01 PM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Drunk Jack was really some of the best drunk acting I've seen.
If Tanya makes it to season 3, that means she's a guest and still has $$ so ...
posted by armacy at 1:01 PM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Isn't she worth close to a billion bucks? Seems like she could be taken to the cleaners by Greg and still be exorbitantly wealthy afterwards.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:14 PM on December 5, 2022
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:14 PM on December 5, 2022
But I still have my suspicions that the plot involves murder (for an insurance payout?) rather than mere entrapment. The whole episode had a dark mood of impending dread which, along with Jack's drunken ramblings, seemed to indicate something far more sinister was afoot.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:25 PM on December 5, 2022
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:25 PM on December 5, 2022
The episode was incredibly dark. Add on Greg arriving at the hotel early and not responding to Tanya's text messages; and then throwing a huge spectacle party with lots of witnesses for a potential alibi...
posted by armacy at 1:31 PM on December 5, 2022
posted by armacy at 1:31 PM on December 5, 2022
What happens if Tanya dies? Does Greg get all her assets, despite the pre-nup?
posted by ishmael at 1:58 PM on December 5, 2022
posted by ishmael at 1:58 PM on December 5, 2022
What was the tattoo on Jack's neck? The camera seemed to linger on it as if it was supposed to explain the "big fucking hole" Quentin had rescued him from.
posted by Paul Slade at 2:35 PM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Paul Slade at 2:35 PM on December 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Okay, also, the grandfather seems to be undergoing a transformation. Seeing Lucia being threatened may have given him a taste of the consequences of his actions earlier on in his life, and then being rejected by the ancestral family, and even though he couldn't understand what she said, the women said " Why do we need men?" or something like that. At dinner he started talking about how he has no one to come home to, abruptly gets up and heads to the lounge. There, in uncharacteristic fashion, rather than saying something gross to Mia, he instead sincerely compliments her performance. I am starting to like the new grandfather and would be sad to see if that was some kind of a swan song.
Prediction: Ethan explodes at Cameron, and that somehow clears the air for him to stop resenting alpha men, and it revives his relationship with Harper as he regains his power. Okay, that could be too simplistic and optimistic an ending for them, but maybe?
posted by nanook at 2:45 PM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Prediction: Ethan explodes at Cameron, and that somehow clears the air for him to stop resenting alpha men, and it revives his relationship with Harper as he regains his power. Okay, that could be too simplistic and optimistic an ending for them, but maybe?
posted by nanook at 2:45 PM on December 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
morality clause
At first, this seemed silly to me, old-fashioned even. But then I realized from a very rich person's perspective, it's yet another way to discourage folks from marrying you for the wrong reasons.
What happens if Tanya dies? Does Greg get all her assets, despite the pre-nup?
I doubt it. For someone that rich, there would likely be a trust, with assets allocated to foundations and charities, in addition to whatever she personally wants to leave whomever.
along with Jack's drunken ramblings, seemed to indicate something far more sinister was afoot.
Both Jack and Quentin seem to have made multiple references to "death" and "dead widows," which is either a red flag, or a red herring, of course.
The moment of Dominic and Albie both getting out of the car to "save" Lucia, their imagined "pretty wounded bird", was excellently done. Truly, like father like son. We know they both grew up in a house with an unhappy and cheated on mother, and they've clearly learned similar (wrong) lessons from it
This was the first scene when I actually felt warm about all three Di Grassi. The grandfather was telling Dom to "be cool," which I thought was exactly right and very level-headed. Albie wanted to spend the day with his pretty girl, and I kind of liked that, too, and when each of the three got out of the car to check on her, it was the first sign that they all could be caring and generous toward others, not just Albie as perpetual penitent.
I also don't know that Lucia is a wounded bird. I'm not sure yet. Given that it's SIcily where mafia levels and ideas of male dominance remain crazy high, it's possible that he's just a protective cousin, say, or an ex boyfriend or someone her family wants her to marry.
Apropos Sicily and Italian culture, it's worth saying that "the status of LGBT rights in Italy is the worst among Western European countries," all of which sheds more light on Sabrina Impacciatore's character arc. There's an interesting interview with her here, by the way.
posted by Violet Blue at 2:50 PM on December 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
At first, this seemed silly to me, old-fashioned even. But then I realized from a very rich person's perspective, it's yet another way to discourage folks from marrying you for the wrong reasons.
What happens if Tanya dies? Does Greg get all her assets, despite the pre-nup?
I doubt it. For someone that rich, there would likely be a trust, with assets allocated to foundations and charities, in addition to whatever she personally wants to leave whomever.
along with Jack's drunken ramblings, seemed to indicate something far more sinister was afoot.
Both Jack and Quentin seem to have made multiple references to "death" and "dead widows," which is either a red flag, or a red herring, of course.
The moment of Dominic and Albie both getting out of the car to "save" Lucia, their imagined "pretty wounded bird", was excellently done. Truly, like father like son. We know they both grew up in a house with an unhappy and cheated on mother, and they've clearly learned similar (wrong) lessons from it
This was the first scene when I actually felt warm about all three Di Grassi. The grandfather was telling Dom to "be cool," which I thought was exactly right and very level-headed. Albie wanted to spend the day with his pretty girl, and I kind of liked that, too, and when each of the three got out of the car to check on her, it was the first sign that they all could be caring and generous toward others, not just Albie as perpetual penitent.
I also don't know that Lucia is a wounded bird. I'm not sure yet. Given that it's SIcily where mafia levels and ideas of male dominance remain crazy high, it's possible that he's just a protective cousin, say, or an ex boyfriend or someone her family wants her to marry.
Apropos Sicily and Italian culture, it's worth saying that "the status of LGBT rights in Italy is the worst among Western European countries," all of which sheds more light on Sabrina Impacciatore's character arc. There's an interesting interview with her here, by the way.
posted by Violet Blue at 2:50 PM on December 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
For those interested in spiritual Sopranos, the judge/prosecutor Giovanni Falcone made vast inroads against Sicily's Cosa Nostra until the early '90s when he was (rather spectacularly) assassinated — and then martyred by the church. As of 2021, it was speculated that close to 10% of small business nation-wide is mobbed up with "mafia entrepreneurs."
For context, when I was researching contemporary Russia for work, and kept coming across phrases like "mafia capitalism" and "mafia economy," they made comparisons between Italian and Russian corruption levels, with Italy remaining largely functional after you bribe the small-time functionaries — and Russia not being functional at all. Anyway, I mention all this because this culture, which has historic roots in the South, which ruled itself this way rather than cede powers to other rulers in Italy prior to the country's unification, remains alive and well, and absolutely informs parts of the culture in contemporary Sicily — and would very likely be running all the drugs.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:10 PM on December 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
For context, when I was researching contemporary Russia for work, and kept coming across phrases like "mafia capitalism" and "mafia economy," they made comparisons between Italian and Russian corruption levels, with Italy remaining largely functional after you bribe the small-time functionaries — and Russia not being functional at all. Anyway, I mention all this because this culture, which has historic roots in the South, which ruled itself this way rather than cede powers to other rulers in Italy prior to the country's unification, remains alive and well, and absolutely informs parts of the culture in contemporary Sicily — and would very likely be running all the drugs.
posted by Violet Blue at 3:10 PM on December 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
I also don't know that Lucia is a wounded bird.
Oh, I don't think she is at all. But Albie and Dominic are all too primed to see her that way.
We also see Dominic's kindness earlier - he could have just cut off Lucia and Mia, yet he feels bad for cutting their arrangement short and so let's them remain on his reservation and charge food/drinks to the room. And Bert is kind by insisting Portia join them and have fun. They clearly all want to be good people, and often are kind, but have a hard time seeing women as anything but weak.
This is just a hunch, but I wouldn't be shocked if Dominic's martial problems stem from his imagining he was saving his wife, and then not knowing what to do with a fully agentive/capable woman.
posted by coffeecat at 3:25 PM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Oh, I don't think she is at all. But Albie and Dominic are all too primed to see her that way.
We also see Dominic's kindness earlier - he could have just cut off Lucia and Mia, yet he feels bad for cutting their arrangement short and so let's them remain on his reservation and charge food/drinks to the room. And Bert is kind by insisting Portia join them and have fun. They clearly all want to be good people, and often are kind, but have a hard time seeing women as anything but weak.
This is just a hunch, but I wouldn't be shocked if Dominic's martial problems stem from his imagining he was saving his wife, and then not knowing what to do with a fully agentive/capable woman.
posted by coffeecat at 3:25 PM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
his imagining he was saving his wife
I think all three are more prone to thinking and worrying about what a man is and what a man does than what a woman is and what a woman does. So I don't think they think in terms of salvation, per se. Their treatment is more based in their male identities than it is about responding to female identities. Moreover, I love Italy, Italians, and I Italian Americans, but there is still an enormous amount of machoismo in both cultures — and that's all about men being men, which always includes an eye for the ladies. In terms of affairs, America (I think) parts ways with Italy when it comes to ideas of whether an affair is proper husbandly behavior.... But not in certain subcultures. Like Hollywood where Dom works.
Albie differs from his father and grandfather because he clearly has heard his mother talk and has an overly acute sensitivity to women not feeling listened to. That's basically what he was saying to Portia: I'm not scared of your "baggage" or whatever the term du jour is for women who have thoughts, problems and considerations of their own.
posted by Violet Blue at 5:10 PM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think all three are more prone to thinking and worrying about what a man is and what a man does than what a woman is and what a woman does. So I don't think they think in terms of salvation, per se. Their treatment is more based in their male identities than it is about responding to female identities. Moreover, I love Italy, Italians, and I Italian Americans, but there is still an enormous amount of machoismo in both cultures — and that's all about men being men, which always includes an eye for the ladies. In terms of affairs, America (I think) parts ways with Italy when it comes to ideas of whether an affair is proper husbandly behavior.... But not in certain subcultures. Like Hollywood where Dom works.
Albie differs from his father and grandfather because he clearly has heard his mother talk and has an overly acute sensitivity to women not feeling listened to. That's basically what he was saying to Portia: I'm not scared of your "baggage" or whatever the term du jour is for women who have thoughts, problems and considerations of their own.
posted by Violet Blue at 5:10 PM on December 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Albie described the women he usually falls for as "pretty wounded birds" - which sure, has everything to do with his sense of masculinity and likely little to do with the women themselves. Portia's not a wounded bird either - Albie might intellectual know that it's important to listen to women, but he struggles to really hear them. The men of that family seem to gain a bit of self-awareness/emotional maturity in each generation, but they're all a bit stunted in similar ways.
posted by coffeecat at 7:45 PM on December 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by coffeecat at 7:45 PM on December 5, 2022 [5 favorites]
Albie might intellectual know that it's important to listen to women, but he struggles to really hear them.
Oh, so interesting! Completely agreed, including with the word "stunted." But if they are stunted, what is Cameron, do you think?
posted by Violet Blue at 7:50 PM on December 5, 2022
Oh, so interesting! Completely agreed, including with the word "stunted." But if they are stunted, what is Cameron, do you think?
posted by Violet Blue at 7:50 PM on December 5, 2022
What was the tattoo on Jack's neck? The camera seemed to linger on it as if it was supposed to explain the "big fucking hole" Quentin had rescued him from.
I'm pretty sure his tattoo just said "Cowabunga."
posted by CheeseLouise at 9:52 AM on December 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
I'm pretty sure his tattoo just said "Cowabunga."
posted by CheeseLouise at 9:52 AM on December 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
That none of the Di Grasso's bothered to even learn a smidgeon of Italian is a pretty bad look on all of them.
It's the most Sopranos-esque note on a TV show since the original Sopranos.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 10:44 AM on December 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's the most Sopranos-esque note on a TV show since the original Sopranos.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 10:44 AM on December 6, 2022 [5 favorites]
I was in Italy a couple months ago and I did exactly what the Di Grassos did. [...] Fortunately for me it went better than it did for them
Not having artichokes thrown at you while you were being chased from the premises would could as a success, I think.
Okay, also, the grandfather seems to be undergoing a transformation.
I agree, he starts off as a really obnoxious individual but is quite sweet at this stage. I love the point where he (and Valentina) become the only people in the room really paying rapt attention to Mia's very apposite rendition of "You Belong to me".
Its is interesting to review Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted's assessment of the opening credits, at this stage - because I think the narrative plot of the show has been set up to work exactly like the kind of frescoed room depicted there. Where is the focal point of a such a room for the viewer? At first we notice the largest characters - at the apex of the domed ceiling or on the largest panels. Only later might we pay attention to the side panels, the hidden details and the links between the elements, the figure lurking in the shadows with a dagger. Finally, each person's perspective and impression may differ according to where they happen to be in the room, what particular things they are primed to notice and how carefully they look. I like the idea that Mike White could have asked Katrina Crawford and Mark Bashore to create the tableau first - then flesh out the plot from that starting point. For example we have Beatrice Grannò's character, Mia - depicted as sphinx - whose riddle references the three stages of man: baby, adult and old- I think we can guess who those three dudes are! Anyway - I am certainly not the first person to think about the credits in this way. (the linked article has spoilers for prior episodes to this one).
posted by rongorongo at 11:55 PM on December 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not having artichokes thrown at you while you were being chased from the premises would could as a success, I think.
Okay, also, the grandfather seems to be undergoing a transformation.
I agree, he starts off as a really obnoxious individual but is quite sweet at this stage. I love the point where he (and Valentina) become the only people in the room really paying rapt attention to Mia's very apposite rendition of "You Belong to me".
Its is interesting to review Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted's assessment of the opening credits, at this stage - because I think the narrative plot of the show has been set up to work exactly like the kind of frescoed room depicted there. Where is the focal point of a such a room for the viewer? At first we notice the largest characters - at the apex of the domed ceiling or on the largest panels. Only later might we pay attention to the side panels, the hidden details and the links between the elements, the figure lurking in the shadows with a dagger. Finally, each person's perspective and impression may differ according to where they happen to be in the room, what particular things they are primed to notice and how carefully they look. I like the idea that Mike White could have asked Katrina Crawford and Mark Bashore to create the tableau first - then flesh out the plot from that starting point. For example we have Beatrice Grannò's character, Mia - depicted as sphinx - whose riddle references the three stages of man: baby, adult and old- I think we can guess who those three dudes are! Anyway - I am certainly not the first person to think about the credits in this way. (the linked article has spoilers for prior episodes to this one).
posted by rongorongo at 11:55 PM on December 6, 2022 [3 favorites]
I’m not that worried about Portia. Sure, she’s absolutely in hot waters now, but I can’t see Jack going as far as killing her to stop her from warning Tanya. But maybe that’s just because I would hate that sort of plot development. I think it would have a whiff of “punishing Portia for choosing the sexy bady boy over the nice guy”, which would leave a pretty sour taste with me.
Also, I’m pretty sure that Tanya will get out of this fairly unscathed, so Portia’s intentions to warn her might have a high probability of success. Although the picture of Greg should give her enough of a clue to figure out that something is wrong even without Portia warning her. But I’m not sure she has been able to properly process that info in her drug haze.
There is however pretty heavy forshadowing of an assassination attempt hitting the wrong target - the Godfather car bomb. Portia’s even wearing the T-shirt with this scene on it last episode. Which is why I think there will be collateral damage, but it won’t be her, because that would be too straightforward.
I also think there’s pretty heave forshadowing that something is going to go wrong with pills (eg. Mia almost killing the piano-player by getting the viagra-pills mixed up with something else). Maybe it’s Daphne pulling something with the pain-medication she might be taking for her massage-induced bad back. Or maybe the high value gays are lacing Tanya’s drugs to fake an overdose, and Jack stumbles upon the wrong stash
posted by sohalt at 11:59 PM on December 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
Also, I’m pretty sure that Tanya will get out of this fairly unscathed, so Portia’s intentions to warn her might have a high probability of success. Although the picture of Greg should give her enough of a clue to figure out that something is wrong even without Portia warning her. But I’m not sure she has been able to properly process that info in her drug haze.
There is however pretty heavy forshadowing of an assassination attempt hitting the wrong target - the Godfather car bomb. Portia’s even wearing the T-shirt with this scene on it last episode. Which is why I think there will be collateral damage, but it won’t be her, because that would be too straightforward.
I also think there’s pretty heave forshadowing that something is going to go wrong with pills (eg. Mia almost killing the piano-player by getting the viagra-pills mixed up with something else). Maybe it’s Daphne pulling something with the pain-medication she might be taking for her massage-induced bad back. Or maybe the high value gays are lacing Tanya’s drugs to fake an overdose, and Jack stumbles upon the wrong stash
posted by sohalt at 11:59 PM on December 6, 2022 [1 favorite]
But if they are stunted, what is Cameron, do you think?
I mean, I would say that the majority of characters this season have very set ideas of how sexuality should or shouldn't work, how masculinity and/or femininity should or shouldn't work, and they all represent views that are easy to find in society today. When the show is at it's best (in my opinion anyway), is when White's dialogue has these characters misunderstanding each other or being unable to hear the other person because to do so would force them to re-evaluate their understanding of gender/sexuality. I'd say none of these characters are "right" - that's what makes it interesting (even if it's easier to sympathize with some more than others).
There is however pretty heavy forshadowing of an assassination attempt hitting the wrong target - the Godfather car bomb.
Also the first season of this show - I mean not literally a failed assassination attempt, but an accidental death. I also feel pretty confident that at least one of the bodies at the end of this will be the result of human error.
Mia now may or may not have access to Valentina's master key - and she and Lucia are owed money by Cameron/Ethan. Do they now attempt to take what they are owed? We know from Daphne that Cameron is capable of really flipping out on people - I don't want Mia or Lucia to die, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them end's up on the receiving end of Cameron's rage.
posted by coffeecat at 10:13 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I mean, I would say that the majority of characters this season have very set ideas of how sexuality should or shouldn't work, how masculinity and/or femininity should or shouldn't work, and they all represent views that are easy to find in society today. When the show is at it's best (in my opinion anyway), is when White's dialogue has these characters misunderstanding each other or being unable to hear the other person because to do so would force them to re-evaluate their understanding of gender/sexuality. I'd say none of these characters are "right" - that's what makes it interesting (even if it's easier to sympathize with some more than others).
There is however pretty heavy forshadowing of an assassination attempt hitting the wrong target - the Godfather car bomb.
Also the first season of this show - I mean not literally a failed assassination attempt, but an accidental death. I also feel pretty confident that at least one of the bodies at the end of this will be the result of human error.
Mia now may or may not have access to Valentina's master key - and she and Lucia are owed money by Cameron/Ethan. Do they now attempt to take what they are owed? We know from Daphne that Cameron is capable of really flipping out on people - I don't want Mia or Lucia to die, but I wouldn't be surprised if one of them end's up on the receiving end of Cameron's rage.
posted by coffeecat at 10:13 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
Some guesses. I think there will be a murder, a suicide, and an accidental, fumbling death.
The murder: Lucia dies. There's been so much foreshadowing in her dialogue, and she's the character most analogous to last season's Armond: in a service role, bending over backwards (literally, for them both!) to satisfy everyone at every turn, but with no real power--a local sacrificed to the gods of first-world tourism. I like coffeecat's theory that Cam kills her in a rage. He drags her down to the water to make it look like a drowning. Hopefully Mia sees it and IDs him. Daphne goes back to her trainer.
The suicide: Ethan. He's unwilling or incapable of engaging in healthy outward conflict with Harper. Yet he's going crazy with the thought that she and Cam are hooking up. Maybe he figures: I'm rich, I'm healthy, I've got an amazing spouse I can't seem to love, and I'm in one of the most beautiful places on earth -- and I'm still unhappy. And this is a pattern that's been going on for years. So he lashes out at himself rather than others. He throws himself off a rocky outcropping and hits his head, thereby drowning. Harper can never be sure, but she suspects he took his life and she returns to the U.S. tempered.
The accidental death: Tanya's intended killer. Tanya, goddess love her, is probably the target of not just a morality clause but also a homicide plot crafted by Greg, with Quentin's love-struck, riches-to-rags decline into amorality for the alley-oop. I think Greg was targeting Tanya in Hawaii (for marriage), and figures some washed-up old lady dying in Sicily isn't going to bother local authorities enough to investigate. Though some comedic, bungling incompetence on her part, however, Tanya will end up in not the wrong place at the wrong time, but the right-enough place at the right-enough time to cause her killer's own death. Perhaps Quentin cuts the brakes on her Vespa but then she accidentally runs him down?
At least that's how I might tie up these ends.
posted by cocoagirl at 11:07 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
The murder: Lucia dies. There's been so much foreshadowing in her dialogue, and she's the character most analogous to last season's Armond: in a service role, bending over backwards (literally, for them both!) to satisfy everyone at every turn, but with no real power--a local sacrificed to the gods of first-world tourism. I like coffeecat's theory that Cam kills her in a rage. He drags her down to the water to make it look like a drowning. Hopefully Mia sees it and IDs him. Daphne goes back to her trainer.
The suicide: Ethan. He's unwilling or incapable of engaging in healthy outward conflict with Harper. Yet he's going crazy with the thought that she and Cam are hooking up. Maybe he figures: I'm rich, I'm healthy, I've got an amazing spouse I can't seem to love, and I'm in one of the most beautiful places on earth -- and I'm still unhappy. And this is a pattern that's been going on for years. So he lashes out at himself rather than others. He throws himself off a rocky outcropping and hits his head, thereby drowning. Harper can never be sure, but she suspects he took his life and she returns to the U.S. tempered.
The accidental death: Tanya's intended killer. Tanya, goddess love her, is probably the target of not just a morality clause but also a homicide plot crafted by Greg, with Quentin's love-struck, riches-to-rags decline into amorality for the alley-oop. I think Greg was targeting Tanya in Hawaii (for marriage), and figures some washed-up old lady dying in Sicily isn't going to bother local authorities enough to investigate. Though some comedic, bungling incompetence on her part, however, Tanya will end up in not the wrong place at the wrong time, but the right-enough place at the right-enough time to cause her killer's own death. Perhaps Quentin cuts the brakes on her Vespa but then she accidentally runs him down?
At least that's how I might tie up these ends.
posted by cocoagirl at 11:07 AM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I love that so much of this season is all either foreshadowing or red herrings!
He's standing near oranges, he's gonna die! No, it's Portia because she's wearing the Godfather car shirt. Oh, Daphne and Cameron are into murder shows. And Tanya had a premonition about the cocaine party?.
I need to rewatch to see if any line of dialog is wasted.
(and I think Portia and granddad will be the bodies)
posted by armacy at 4:38 PM on December 7, 2022
He's standing near oranges, he's gonna die! No, it's Portia because she's wearing the Godfather car shirt. Oh, Daphne and Cameron are into murder shows. And Tanya had a premonition about the cocaine party?.
I need to rewatch to see if any line of dialog is wasted.
(and I think Portia and granddad will be the bodies)
posted by armacy at 4:38 PM on December 7, 2022
This is a huuuuuuge stretch. Drunk Jack was singing "I'm forever blowing bubbles", which I can never hear without thinking of Ken Russell's "Women in Love". A film that (spoiler alert) includes a married couple drowning as a background plot point and ends with a jealous man attempting to strangle his lover and then wandering off to commit suicide.
I'm out of touch with Chav Culture but it seemed like too weird a choice for a lad like Jack to be singing for it to mean nothing. Probably nothing but misdirection. Jealous lovers abound in The White Lotus.
And props to the actor portraying Jack, that was such a good drunk performance I started to get annoyed they'd let a drunk asshole like that onto the set.
posted by arha at 7:31 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
I'm out of touch with Chav Culture but it seemed like too weird a choice for a lad like Jack to be singing for it to mean nothing. Probably nothing but misdirection. Jealous lovers abound in The White Lotus.
And props to the actor portraying Jack, that was such a good drunk performance I started to get annoyed they'd let a drunk asshole like that onto the set.
posted by arha at 7:31 PM on December 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
This is a huuuuuuge stretch. Drunk Jack was singing "I'm forever blowing bubbles", which I can never hear without thinking of Ken Russell's "Women in Love". A film that (spoiler alert) includes a married couple drowning as a background plot point and ends with a jealous man attempting to strangle his lover and then wandering off to commit suicide.
The song is also the punchline of an off-colour joke about Michael Jackson's chimp - who survives him to this day having led a rather White Lotus like life of pampering in luxury hotels of the world and suicide attempts. We see a monkey rather than a chimp in the credits - but hey - huuuuuge stretches! In Jack's case: also the song of West Ham supporters.
posted by rongorongo at 9:46 PM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
The song is also the punchline of an off-colour joke about Michael Jackson's chimp - who survives him to this day having led a rather White Lotus like life of pampering in luxury hotels of the world and suicide attempts. We see a monkey rather than a chimp in the credits - but hey - huuuuuge stretches! In Jack's case: also the song of West Ham supporters.
posted by rongorongo at 9:46 PM on December 7, 2022 [4 favorites]
I always thought that Daphne and Cameron are in on it together, but only to a degree. Daphne’s stunt with the Palazzzo definitely seemed like a calculated move to seperate Ethan and Harper, so that each could be worked on seperately. I thought the goal was to get them both in compromising situations, to render them vulnerable to blackmail, so that they would agree to an investment in Cameron’s newest scheme. The plan with Ethan was pretty straightforward - hookers and drugs - but Harper needs to be compromised as well, because she probably has veto power. The plan might be to drive her towards an affair with Cameron.
Now, Harper is not terribly attracted to Cameron, but that doesn’ t have to be an obstacle. That’s where Daphne comes in. Note, the job is not to sell Cameron as attractive, necessarily. But I think she acts the scorned woman taking back her power by cheating on her husband because that’s the behavior she wants Harper to emulate. She doesn’t sell Cameron as a good lay so much as she sells cheating as empowering. Implying that the kids aren’t even his may be taking it a bit far, but it’s an important move to highlight the thrill of deception. Harper should cheat on Ethan, but she also needs to feel she has to keep it a secret, so that she can be blackmailed about it. So Daphne is presenting the true power move not just as sleeping around, but also as keeping the husband in utter dark about it. (Pretty sure, that part did not work on Harper at all - if she steps out, she would rub it in Ethan's face; I think she didn't step out, but she wants him at least to suspect).
Of course all of that truly only makes sense, if Daphne and Cameron are indeed pretty broke and fairly desperate.
But I also think Daphne might have it out for Cameron, and that doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense if Cameron is indeed broke. While I think that Daphne is often only pretending the pretense (play-acting jealous and resentful, while actually being jealous and resentful), and the kids are really totally not Cameron’s, I’m not sure yet she would kill him out of resentment. I mean, if you hate the guy, why not just get a divorce? The only potential drawback of divorce versus widowhood could be financial considerations (or if Cam's the type who would rather kill her than let her leave - I don't think there's enough build up for that explanation, but then again, it's not uncommon).
But what if Cameron isn’t broke yet, but on the brink of going broke? (eg. after losing at court...). He might have good credit for now, but maybe Daphne knows that he's over-leveraged as all the assets are over-valuated. Maybe she knows that the house of cards is going to crash down any moment now, and wants to get her pay-out before all the other creditors line up. Maybe killing Cameron is just plan B, in case the scam on Ethan and Harper doesn’t work out.
posted by sohalt at 11:42 PM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Now, Harper is not terribly attracted to Cameron, but that doesn’ t have to be an obstacle. That’s where Daphne comes in. Note, the job is not to sell Cameron as attractive, necessarily. But I think she acts the scorned woman taking back her power by cheating on her husband because that’s the behavior she wants Harper to emulate. She doesn’t sell Cameron as a good lay so much as she sells cheating as empowering. Implying that the kids aren’t even his may be taking it a bit far, but it’s an important move to highlight the thrill of deception. Harper should cheat on Ethan, but she also needs to feel she has to keep it a secret, so that she can be blackmailed about it. So Daphne is presenting the true power move not just as sleeping around, but also as keeping the husband in utter dark about it. (Pretty sure, that part did not work on Harper at all - if she steps out, she would rub it in Ethan's face; I think she didn't step out, but she wants him at least to suspect).
Of course all of that truly only makes sense, if Daphne and Cameron are indeed pretty broke and fairly desperate.
But I also think Daphne might have it out for Cameron, and that doesn’t seem to make a lot of sense if Cameron is indeed broke. While I think that Daphne is often only pretending the pretense (play-acting jealous and resentful, while actually being jealous and resentful), and the kids are really totally not Cameron’s, I’m not sure yet she would kill him out of resentment. I mean, if you hate the guy, why not just get a divorce? The only potential drawback of divorce versus widowhood could be financial considerations (or if Cam's the type who would rather kill her than let her leave - I don't think there's enough build up for that explanation, but then again, it's not uncommon).
But what if Cameron isn’t broke yet, but on the brink of going broke? (eg. after losing at court...). He might have good credit for now, but maybe Daphne knows that he's over-leveraged as all the assets are over-valuated. Maybe she knows that the house of cards is going to crash down any moment now, and wants to get her pay-out before all the other creditors line up. Maybe killing Cameron is just plan B, in case the scam on Ethan and Harper doesn’t work out.
posted by sohalt at 11:42 PM on December 7, 2022 [2 favorites]
Oh, so interesting! Completely agreed, including with the word "stunted." But if they are stunted, what is Cameron, do you think?
I have to wonder if Cameron is a bit of a subversion of Shane from season one. He's a massive douchebag alpha male, but he does get what he want- he and Daphne have a seemingly loving virtual open marriage, where infidelity is repaid with infidelity yet it's all gone unspoken and they have a much more spicy love life compared to Harper and Ethan's.
Then again, Shane got what he wanted at the end, too, even if it wasn't the room with the plunge pool.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:43 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
I have to wonder if Cameron is a bit of a subversion of Shane from season one. He's a massive douchebag alpha male, but he does get what he want- he and Daphne have a seemingly loving virtual open marriage, where infidelity is repaid with infidelity yet it's all gone unspoken and they have a much more spicy love life compared to Harper and Ethan's.
Then again, Shane got what he wanted at the end, too, even if it wasn't the room with the plunge pool.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:43 PM on December 7, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's interesting that we've thoroughly absorbed the rebranding of psychopathy as being "alpha male" in our culture.
Makes it seem like they are fulfilling a necessary role in the ecosystem. If we don't have "alpha males" raping and tricking people, the sheeple will overpopulate.
posted by ishmael at 8:59 AM on December 8, 2022
Makes it seem like they are fulfilling a necessary role in the ecosystem. If we don't have "alpha males" raping and tricking people, the sheeple will overpopulate.
posted by ishmael at 8:59 AM on December 8, 2022
Anyway - I am certainly not the first person to think about the credits in this way. (the linked article has spoilers for prior episodes to this one).
So Mike White said in an interview that the opening credits provide clues about the character’s trajectories. The actor playing Ethan is associated with the image of a man offering grain to a woman, who rejects the offering. The woman rejecting the offering is obviously Ceres/Demeter, goddess of agriculture, fertility and motherhood, mother of Proserpina/Persephone, whose cult had as particularly strong showing in Sicily, the site of her most ancient sanctuary.
Some implications are fairly straightforward. Since Ceres rejects Ethan, his union with Harper won’t be blessed with offspring. They talked about kids, but it’s clearly not happening, because Ethan doesn’t seem to be very keen on procreation. He hasn’t been too honest about this with Harper so far, because when the topic comes up with Daphne and Cameron, Ethan and Harper talk as if kids were still on the table. Ceres will gladly accept modest offerings, as long as they are pure. But Ethan’s offerings aren’t pure. He’s lying, stringing Harper along, pretending to maybe want a family with her, but not really putting his heart (and dick) in it.
There is another interesting angle to Ceres: She is also the protector of plebeians. Plebeians could come to her temple and seek justice when they were mistreated by patricians. The dynamic between Ethan and Cameron is very much about status - Ethan is new money, Cameron is old money, Cameron likes to lord it over Ethan, Ethan still feels like the underdog. But here to, Ceres won’t protect Ethan. Ethan can no longer appeal to her, as he’s too keen on leaving behind his plebeian roots; he wants to finally lord it over Cameron in turn, yet still keep acting the underdog. And that’s just another thing Ethan can’t admit (when Harper suggests that they’re just here so he can finally win that dick measuring contest, he denies it). Again, Ethan is lying. His offerings aren’t pure.
Gain is not the only thing thing you could offer to Ceres. She’s also strongly associated with animal sacrifice. Her sacrificial animal is the pig. Indeed, the opening credits also show a pig being killed. So the question for me is: Who is the pig that will be sacrificed to Ceres?
Traditionally, people used sows for that purpose. I do think that in this case, however, it will be a boar (Frankly, I wouldn’t bet on my ability to tell a sow from a boar, but I’m going to claim the pig in the opening credit looks more like a boar, doesn’t it?). And whose thoughts wouldn’t immediately jump to Cameron?
In the opening credits, Cameron is associated with a the statue of an idealized male. He represents the pinnacle of a certain, much envied form of masculinity. The opening credits close on the image of a male statue, not at all dismiliar to the one used to represented Cameron, toppled and shattered. This does seem to suggest a bad ending for him.
Ceres/Demeter is also the mother of Prosperina, abducted by Pluto/Hades. Albie’s grandpa gleefully recounts the story to Portia on their outing in the second episode. What he leaves out is the part where Ceres/Demeters in her rage about the rape of her daughter is ready to doom all life on earth, refusing to let anything grow and bringing about eternal winter, until Zeus/Iuppiter intervens and forces Pluto to work out a compromise with Ceres. The story is ultimately about the devastating potential of female, and more specifically, maternal wrath (and also suggests that Ceres doesn’t care much about collateral damage).
Some of this is echoed by the local legend about the moor’s head, the stranger killed by his deceived paramour. Sure these are stories about men taking whatever they want by all means necessary, and thinking they can get away with. But in these specific stories, they very much don’t.
And isn’t it interesting that in the opening credits, Daphne is represented by the image of two babies? Clearly, she is the character in this show most strongly associated with motherhood and fertility.... and she does have some reason to be unhappy with Cameron.
In the trailer for the final episode we see Cameron in dicey situations twice - attacked by Ethan in a lavender shirt, and then once again kicked down in the pool by someone in a blue shirt. I think the trailer shows them in the wrong order. The pool scene comes first. In the trailor we see that the person with the blue shirt is Harper. Cameron sneaks up on her in the pool, as he did in the second episode, to prank her (or, maybe more likely, he playfully throws her into the pool, as he did with Ethan in the third episode, which is why she’s actually still wearing the shirt and not a bathing suit); her defense instincts kick in, and she kicks him down while struggling free from his grasp. He comes up to the surface quickly and tries to play it off as a joke, and Harper’s ready to go along. But Ethan is less ready to let this go. So that’s another straw that eventually culminates to their fight at the beach. Which is however, probably pretty anti-climactic, because Cameron still seems well enough at dinner.
I think that finally getting to punch Cameron in the face might be enough for Ethan to get it out of his system. He might not be the one to kill Cameron.
But at this point there are probably quite a few people who have witnessed Ethan and Cameron fighting. Which would probably make Ethan a likely suspect should Cameron be murdered. Which might be very convenient for Daphne. All this time she’s been practically pushing Harper towards an affair with her husband, taking her to the palazzo to get her out of the way, so that Cameron could compromise Ethan and undermine his relationship with Harper, speedrunning intimacy with Harper by revealing darker and darker secrets, planting and continuously re-inforcing the idea that extra-marital affairs are the best way to regain power in the relationship, and then making herself rare in a convenient moment, to give Harper and Cameron an opportunity for a little flirtation. I thought she did that in accordance with Cameron, so that they could neutralize the threat of Harper, who would probably veto Ethan’s investments in Cameron’s projects. But maybe her true aim was to manipulate Ethan into lashing out at Cameron, to have a convenient fall-guy... Cameron seems the type to be blissfully unware how much Ethan must truly loathe him and just doesn’t realize that he’s playing with fire, but Daphne is probably a lot more perceptive, and might find a way to use that to her advantage.
posted by sohalt at 12:01 PM on December 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
So Mike White said in an interview that the opening credits provide clues about the character’s trajectories. The actor playing Ethan is associated with the image of a man offering grain to a woman, who rejects the offering. The woman rejecting the offering is obviously Ceres/Demeter, goddess of agriculture, fertility and motherhood, mother of Proserpina/Persephone, whose cult had as particularly strong showing in Sicily, the site of her most ancient sanctuary.
Some implications are fairly straightforward. Since Ceres rejects Ethan, his union with Harper won’t be blessed with offspring. They talked about kids, but it’s clearly not happening, because Ethan doesn’t seem to be very keen on procreation. He hasn’t been too honest about this with Harper so far, because when the topic comes up with Daphne and Cameron, Ethan and Harper talk as if kids were still on the table. Ceres will gladly accept modest offerings, as long as they are pure. But Ethan’s offerings aren’t pure. He’s lying, stringing Harper along, pretending to maybe want a family with her, but not really putting his heart (and dick) in it.
There is another interesting angle to Ceres: She is also the protector of plebeians. Plebeians could come to her temple and seek justice when they were mistreated by patricians. The dynamic between Ethan and Cameron is very much about status - Ethan is new money, Cameron is old money, Cameron likes to lord it over Ethan, Ethan still feels like the underdog. But here to, Ceres won’t protect Ethan. Ethan can no longer appeal to her, as he’s too keen on leaving behind his plebeian roots; he wants to finally lord it over Cameron in turn, yet still keep acting the underdog. And that’s just another thing Ethan can’t admit (when Harper suggests that they’re just here so he can finally win that dick measuring contest, he denies it). Again, Ethan is lying. His offerings aren’t pure.
Gain is not the only thing thing you could offer to Ceres. She’s also strongly associated with animal sacrifice. Her sacrificial animal is the pig. Indeed, the opening credits also show a pig being killed. So the question for me is: Who is the pig that will be sacrificed to Ceres?
Traditionally, people used sows for that purpose. I do think that in this case, however, it will be a boar (Frankly, I wouldn’t bet on my ability to tell a sow from a boar, but I’m going to claim the pig in the opening credit looks more like a boar, doesn’t it?). And whose thoughts wouldn’t immediately jump to Cameron?
In the opening credits, Cameron is associated with a the statue of an idealized male. He represents the pinnacle of a certain, much envied form of masculinity. The opening credits close on the image of a male statue, not at all dismiliar to the one used to represented Cameron, toppled and shattered. This does seem to suggest a bad ending for him.
Ceres/Demeter is also the mother of Prosperina, abducted by Pluto/Hades. Albie’s grandpa gleefully recounts the story to Portia on their outing in the second episode. What he leaves out is the part where Ceres/Demeters in her rage about the rape of her daughter is ready to doom all life on earth, refusing to let anything grow and bringing about eternal winter, until Zeus/Iuppiter intervens and forces Pluto to work out a compromise with Ceres. The story is ultimately about the devastating potential of female, and more specifically, maternal wrath (and also suggests that Ceres doesn’t care much about collateral damage).
Some of this is echoed by the local legend about the moor’s head, the stranger killed by his deceived paramour. Sure these are stories about men taking whatever they want by all means necessary, and thinking they can get away with. But in these specific stories, they very much don’t.
And isn’t it interesting that in the opening credits, Daphne is represented by the image of two babies? Clearly, she is the character in this show most strongly associated with motherhood and fertility.... and she does have some reason to be unhappy with Cameron.
In the trailer for the final episode we see Cameron in dicey situations twice - attacked by Ethan in a lavender shirt, and then once again kicked down in the pool by someone in a blue shirt. I think the trailer shows them in the wrong order. The pool scene comes first. In the trailor we see that the person with the blue shirt is Harper. Cameron sneaks up on her in the pool, as he did in the second episode, to prank her (or, maybe more likely, he playfully throws her into the pool, as he did with Ethan in the third episode, which is why she’s actually still wearing the shirt and not a bathing suit); her defense instincts kick in, and she kicks him down while struggling free from his grasp. He comes up to the surface quickly and tries to play it off as a joke, and Harper’s ready to go along. But Ethan is less ready to let this go. So that’s another straw that eventually culminates to their fight at the beach. Which is however, probably pretty anti-climactic, because Cameron still seems well enough at dinner.
I think that finally getting to punch Cameron in the face might be enough for Ethan to get it out of his system. He might not be the one to kill Cameron.
But at this point there are probably quite a few people who have witnessed Ethan and Cameron fighting. Which would probably make Ethan a likely suspect should Cameron be murdered. Which might be very convenient for Daphne. All this time she’s been practically pushing Harper towards an affair with her husband, taking her to the palazzo to get her out of the way, so that Cameron could compromise Ethan and undermine his relationship with Harper, speedrunning intimacy with Harper by revealing darker and darker secrets, planting and continuously re-inforcing the idea that extra-marital affairs are the best way to regain power in the relationship, and then making herself rare in a convenient moment, to give Harper and Cameron an opportunity for a little flirtation. I thought she did that in accordance with Cameron, so that they could neutralize the threat of Harper, who would probably veto Ethan’s investments in Cameron’s projects. But maybe her true aim was to manipulate Ethan into lashing out at Cameron, to have a convenient fall-guy... Cameron seems the type to be blissfully unware how much Ethan must truly loathe him and just doesn’t realize that he’s playing with fire, but Daphne is probably a lot more perceptive, and might find a way to use that to her advantage.
posted by sohalt at 12:01 PM on December 8, 2022 [8 favorites]
It's interesting that we've thoroughly absorbed the rebranding of psychopathy as being "alpha male" in our culture
I'm not sure that "we" have, but someone like Ethan certainly seems to buy into it. He's not an implausible character.
posted by sohalt at 12:02 PM on December 8, 2022
I'm not sure that "we" have, but someone like Ethan certainly seems to buy into it. He's not an implausible character.
posted by sohalt at 12:02 PM on December 8, 2022
I'm not sure that "we" have, but someone like Ethan certainly seems to buy into it. He's not an implausible character.
I meant "we" as in our culture at large. I don't think people like Cameron are an automatic given, but cultivated.
posted by ishmael at 12:10 PM on December 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I meant "we" as in our culture at large. I don't think people like Cameron are an automatic given, but cultivated.
posted by ishmael at 12:10 PM on December 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I meant "we" as in our culture at large. I don't think people like Cameron are an automatic given, but cultivated.
Oh sure. There's a popular saying in theatre: the king is played by the others. The Camerons are playbed by the Ethans.
posted by sohalt at 12:17 PM on December 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh sure. There's a popular saying in theatre: the king is played by the others. The Camerons are playbed by the Ethans.
posted by sohalt at 12:17 PM on December 8, 2022 [1 favorite]
I don't mean to imply that characters like Ethan are unrealistic, especially in the context of White Lotus, where everyone's motives are suspect.
I do think there is a bit of projection going on in the current zeitgeist, where "nice guys" are nefarious. That a repressed "nice guy" doesn't exist, he's just another predator waiting to pounce.
You see it a lot in the podcasts of comedians, where they are describing "types" of people.
Kinda reminds me of how certain republican lawmakers think, coming up with bizarre scenarios in their legislation because they think being a predator is the default state of people in general. Because that's how they navigate the world.
posted by ishmael at 3:37 PM on December 8, 2022
I do think there is a bit of projection going on in the current zeitgeist, where "nice guys" are nefarious. That a repressed "nice guy" doesn't exist, he's just another predator waiting to pounce.
You see it a lot in the podcasts of comedians, where they are describing "types" of people.
Kinda reminds me of how certain republican lawmakers think, coming up with bizarre scenarios in their legislation because they think being a predator is the default state of people in general. Because that's how they navigate the world.
posted by ishmael at 3:37 PM on December 8, 2022
The ceramic heads in everyone's rooms that get discussed in the first episode is a story about a man who is deceitful with a woman, and in the end, gets decapitated. I think there is a fairly good chance that someone who has been deceitful loses their head (literally or metaphorically) - but there are obviously many candidates here:
-Greg: He has obviously been deceitful towards Tanya. We don't actually know that he's left Sicily - he very well could be hunkered down in a nearby town. I like the idea of Tanya somehow accidentally killing him, after she helped him get better medical treatment to beat cancer. It's possible he'll pull down Quentin and Jack along with him.
-Lucia +Mia: Dominic gave them permission to charge to the room some drinks and food, but they've been buying expensive clothes too. The final bill at check out is going to be a bit of shock. While it appears he's rich enough that the cost won't be an issue, it will be obvious to everyone who overhears the bill that this wasn't just caused by three people. Which brings me to....
-Lucia: She is keeping a pretty big secret from Albie, i.e. that her previous client was his father. Albie has been cool about her line of work up until now, but I question whether he'd remain calm if this came out - not that I think he'd intentionally harm anyone - but limbs gesticulating in anger sometimes accidentally hit something....Also in the first episode she gives a friendly "Ciao" to Alessio (also the name of the first episode) and so it seems likely he's not the evil pimp she's made him out to be.
-Daphne: It is not clear that Cameron knows that at least one of his kids isn't biologically his own. And while they're relationship seems to "work" to the extent they enjoy having sex, I'm not so sure their relationship is a great example of non-monogamy. Based on her conversation with Harper, Daphne clearly viewed Cameron's past instance of having sex with another woman as cheating. Daphne once told Harper that while Cam can flip out, he's never been agro towards her - but there's always a first time.
-Cameron: Oof, where to start. First, he's stalling to pay Lucia and Mia because he doesn't have the money. I also think he's been lying by omission to Daphne about money - she seems genuinely carefree when it comes to finances, and is more focused on playing games with her husband and enjoying her vacation. (As an aside, her pestering Cameron with occasional questions as to why Harper is suspicious of him and Ethan makes me doubt she and Cameron are in cahoots - I think that was as simple as she was pissed he didn't prioritize her trip, and he took advantage of her absence).
-Ethan: deceit might not be the right word, but it's clear he's been emotional withholding and not particularly honest with Harper for some time now. I don't think Harper will harm him. Rather, his inability to be honest and its impact on his relationship with her is clearly causing him stress, and could contribute to him snapping (a metaphorical losing of the head).
posted by coffeecat at 5:48 PM on December 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
-Greg: He has obviously been deceitful towards Tanya. We don't actually know that he's left Sicily - he very well could be hunkered down in a nearby town. I like the idea of Tanya somehow accidentally killing him, after she helped him get better medical treatment to beat cancer. It's possible he'll pull down Quentin and Jack along with him.
-Lucia +Mia: Dominic gave them permission to charge to the room some drinks and food, but they've been buying expensive clothes too. The final bill at check out is going to be a bit of shock. While it appears he's rich enough that the cost won't be an issue, it will be obvious to everyone who overhears the bill that this wasn't just caused by three people. Which brings me to....
-Lucia: She is keeping a pretty big secret from Albie, i.e. that her previous client was his father. Albie has been cool about her line of work up until now, but I question whether he'd remain calm if this came out - not that I think he'd intentionally harm anyone - but limbs gesticulating in anger sometimes accidentally hit something....Also in the first episode she gives a friendly "Ciao" to Alessio (also the name of the first episode) and so it seems likely he's not the evil pimp she's made him out to be.
-Daphne: It is not clear that Cameron knows that at least one of his kids isn't biologically his own. And while they're relationship seems to "work" to the extent they enjoy having sex, I'm not so sure their relationship is a great example of non-monogamy. Based on her conversation with Harper, Daphne clearly viewed Cameron's past instance of having sex with another woman as cheating. Daphne once told Harper that while Cam can flip out, he's never been agro towards her - but there's always a first time.
-Cameron: Oof, where to start. First, he's stalling to pay Lucia and Mia because he doesn't have the money. I also think he's been lying by omission to Daphne about money - she seems genuinely carefree when it comes to finances, and is more focused on playing games with her husband and enjoying her vacation. (As an aside, her pestering Cameron with occasional questions as to why Harper is suspicious of him and Ethan makes me doubt she and Cameron are in cahoots - I think that was as simple as she was pissed he didn't prioritize her trip, and he took advantage of her absence).
-Ethan: deceit might not be the right word, but it's clear he's been emotional withholding and not particularly honest with Harper for some time now. I don't think Harper will harm him. Rather, his inability to be honest and its impact on his relationship with her is clearly causing him stress, and could contribute to him snapping (a metaphorical losing of the head).
posted by coffeecat at 5:48 PM on December 8, 2022 [4 favorites]
I do think there is a bit of projection going on in the current zeitgeist, where "nice guys" are nefarious. That a repressed "nice guy" doesn't exist, he's just another predator waiting to pounce.
Oh sure, I was maybe a bit too primed to immediately worry for Portia, when Albie started going on about the broken birds and seemed a bit oblivious to their lack of chemistry, but then he actually handled the failure of that flirtation pretty gracefully and they parted amicably enough. I still think his longing for a rescue romance will get him into troubles, because he's has an unfortunate tendency to cast people for a role in that fantasy and then no longer see them for who they really are.
But right now for instance, I don't think he would kill Lucia in a fit of rage when he finds out that she's been playing him and I would be very sad, if he ended up one of the corpses. Just as it would leave a bad taste with me, if Portia was killed after choosing the fun bad boy, it would leave a bad taste with me if Albie was killed for not immediately thinking the worst of a sex worker. I hope his ending will just be that he's all ready to save Lucia (eg. by buying her from her pimp, or even with a green card marriage) and promises her as much, and then his father tells him that he slept with her too, and Albie has to face the fact that the can't get over that after all and is not as open-minded as he thought, so he breaks his promise, and leaves and never finds out if Lucia really played him, or if he just let his mind be poisoned by his dad's suspicions about her, and we, the audience never get confirmation either.
But yeah, if anyone comes to harm in that plot, it's more likely to be Albie than Lucia. Lucia is associated in the opening credits with the image of cat with a bird in its mouth. Seems like she's the cat, and Albie's the bird. You are right that maybe parts of the audience (I can't exclude myself from) are a bit too primed to see Albie as potential predator rather than prey. In our defense, this is also a bit because this show is after all framed as a murder mystery we know will end with several corpses, so of course everyone's primed to be suspicious of everyone, not just nice guys. I mean, I also think Daphne could be a killer, and she seems like such an nice girl. Maybe nice guys and nice girls are more suspicious in this kind of story, because their eventual revelation as killers makes for a more dramatic twist.
For what it's worth, I also don't think Ethan is a predator in waiting, ready to bounce. That's not what I meant when I said that the Ethans are playing the Camerons. I feel Ethan is guided by a very strong determination not to be that guy, which is after all a good instinct. I'm quite sure he wouldn't actually enjoy the life Cameron is leading. But I'm not sure Ethan himself is as sure about this - I think he doesn't know himself very well. Because while we all use negative identifiers to refine our sense of self, it's probably not enough to only define yourself in contrast to someone else. Not wanting to be that guy is a good start, but it's not enough. Ethan can sense that as weakness in himself, and he misinterprets that and it fuels his inferiority complex towards Cameron. He can see through Cameron to a degree, and yet remains unduly impressed, and ends up propping up Cameron by giving him way too much importance in his life, and for his sense of self.
posted by sohalt at 12:03 AM on December 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
Oh sure, I was maybe a bit too primed to immediately worry for Portia, when Albie started going on about the broken birds and seemed a bit oblivious to their lack of chemistry, but then he actually handled the failure of that flirtation pretty gracefully and they parted amicably enough. I still think his longing for a rescue romance will get him into troubles, because he's has an unfortunate tendency to cast people for a role in that fantasy and then no longer see them for who they really are.
But right now for instance, I don't think he would kill Lucia in a fit of rage when he finds out that she's been playing him and I would be very sad, if he ended up one of the corpses. Just as it would leave a bad taste with me, if Portia was killed after choosing the fun bad boy, it would leave a bad taste with me if Albie was killed for not immediately thinking the worst of a sex worker. I hope his ending will just be that he's all ready to save Lucia (eg. by buying her from her pimp, or even with a green card marriage) and promises her as much, and then his father tells him that he slept with her too, and Albie has to face the fact that the can't get over that after all and is not as open-minded as he thought, so he breaks his promise, and leaves and never finds out if Lucia really played him, or if he just let his mind be poisoned by his dad's suspicions about her, and we, the audience never get confirmation either.
But yeah, if anyone comes to harm in that plot, it's more likely to be Albie than Lucia. Lucia is associated in the opening credits with the image of cat with a bird in its mouth. Seems like she's the cat, and Albie's the bird. You are right that maybe parts of the audience (I can't exclude myself from) are a bit too primed to see Albie as potential predator rather than prey. In our defense, this is also a bit because this show is after all framed as a murder mystery we know will end with several corpses, so of course everyone's primed to be suspicious of everyone, not just nice guys. I mean, I also think Daphne could be a killer, and she seems like such an nice girl. Maybe nice guys and nice girls are more suspicious in this kind of story, because their eventual revelation as killers makes for a more dramatic twist.
For what it's worth, I also don't think Ethan is a predator in waiting, ready to bounce. That's not what I meant when I said that the Ethans are playing the Camerons. I feel Ethan is guided by a very strong determination not to be that guy, which is after all a good instinct. I'm quite sure he wouldn't actually enjoy the life Cameron is leading. But I'm not sure Ethan himself is as sure about this - I think he doesn't know himself very well. Because while we all use negative identifiers to refine our sense of self, it's probably not enough to only define yourself in contrast to someone else. Not wanting to be that guy is a good start, but it's not enough. Ethan can sense that as weakness in himself, and he misinterprets that and it fuels his inferiority complex towards Cameron. He can see through Cameron to a degree, and yet remains unduly impressed, and ends up propping up Cameron by giving him way too much importance in his life, and for his sense of self.
posted by sohalt at 12:03 AM on December 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
I hope his ending will just be that he's all ready to save Lucia [but] breaks his promise, and leave
That might be a little too close to Tania's treatment of the health spa lady at the end of season one. I doubt the writers would want to repeat themselves to that extent.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:57 AM on December 9, 2022
That might be a little too close to Tania's treatment of the health spa lady at the end of season one. I doubt the writers would want to repeat themselves to that extent.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:57 AM on December 9, 2022
But right now for instance, I don't think [Albie] would kill Lucia in a fit of rage when he finds out that she's been playing him and I would be very sad, if he ended up one of the corpses. Just as it would leave a bad taste with me, if Portia was killed after choosing the fun bad boy, it would leave a bad taste with me if Albie was killed for not immediately thinking the worst of a sex worker.
For what is nominally a murder mystery, the show is very minimal with police or detective involvement (I think they showed up for a few seconds in the first episode, that's all). Characters may end up enlightened, joyful unhappy or dead - but they are not the kind to be getting locked up or put on trial. Sohalt's mention of Ceres is apt because it calls to mind all those Greek myths where some particular god is becoming fixated with the actions (or beauty) of a particular mortal - and the inhabitants of Mount Olympus end up arguing over that person's destiny. Rather the same as the conversation in a writers room - or FanFare - that fatal destiny is where the judgement comes from. All of the characters have at least some redeeming features at this stage - yet there is every sign that they are being weighed by their moral actions. So, on whom should the sword of Damocles fall?
At the end of the show, we will be able to find clear auspices in the opening credits and in the foreshadowing that link back to what eventually happened. But it will be like listening to those art critics who can explain how a paintings composition, lines of sight and symbolism make its meaning obvious. It is all hiding there in plane sight if you know the outcome and where to look! (there is probably a golden spiral!!!)
posted by rongorongo at 2:32 AM on December 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
For what is nominally a murder mystery, the show is very minimal with police or detective involvement (I think they showed up for a few seconds in the first episode, that's all). Characters may end up enlightened, joyful unhappy or dead - but they are not the kind to be getting locked up or put on trial. Sohalt's mention of Ceres is apt because it calls to mind all those Greek myths where some particular god is becoming fixated with the actions (or beauty) of a particular mortal - and the inhabitants of Mount Olympus end up arguing over that person's destiny. Rather the same as the conversation in a writers room - or FanFare - that fatal destiny is where the judgement comes from. All of the characters have at least some redeeming features at this stage - yet there is every sign that they are being weighed by their moral actions. So, on whom should the sword of Damocles fall?
At the end of the show, we will be able to find clear auspices in the opening credits and in the foreshadowing that link back to what eventually happened. But it will be like listening to those art critics who can explain how a paintings composition, lines of sight and symbolism make its meaning obvious. It is all hiding there in plane sight if you know the outcome and where to look! (there is probably a golden spiral!!!)
posted by rongorongo at 2:32 AM on December 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
That might be a little too close to Tania's treatment of the health spa lady at the end of season one. I doubt the writers would want to repeat themselves to that extent.
Then again, it can be interesting to do variations on a theme. Mike White certainly seems to think so, because season two has had a lot of repeating motives so far - the couple with marital problems, partly due to one of them being a workaholic, the young wife coming into money, unsure how to feel about this newfound social mobility, the hotel manager trying to hook up with an employee, middle-aged guy with some resentment towards his father, struggling with his own sense of masculinity, his fumbling attempts to bond with his son, a criminal conspiracy against one of the guests, involving some locals and someone from the guest's inner circle who betrays them. It would be almost odd for me to not also repeat the element of the local seeing one of the guests as a potential path towards a new life and seeing their hopes dashed.
Of course this time around things might shake out differently - the couple breaking up, the young wife turning her back on a life of luxury, the criminal conspiracy succeeding. But I am pretty certain for instance that the criminal conspiracy will fail again, and again, at great cost to the criminal conspirators - Tanya is already announced to be part of a potential third season, apparently still rich enough to afford the White Lotus. It's the emotional valence that will be different. Last time I think viewers were supposed to feel a fair bit of sympathy for the conspirators, at least for Kai, the staffer who gets roped by Paula into a risky robbery scheme, ruining his future. I guess this time I would also have a bit of sympathy for Jack, whose life seems quite tragic, and who might be the one who pays the highest price for this stunt. It would also once again support an overarching theme of the show - how the rich are proteced by their privilege, and the poor get no margin of error. But last time I also had a bit of sympathy for Paula, the rich girl's poorer friend, whose recklessness dooms her lover, but who seemed to be genuinely wanting to help him. This time around I don't think I would have any sympathy for Quentin and Greg, even though love might be once again one of the motivations for the crime.
Then we have Valentia - she gets the message and backs off from the receptionist - only to then hook up with Mia, her piano player, another employee/contractor, who desperately wants her to give her a permanent contract, thereby once again exploiting a hierarchical relationship. But this time at least Mia is the one who suggests it; she gets a lot more focus and agency in the narrative.
I also think the emotional valence of Albie disappointing Lucia would be different - there are, after all, some reasons to think that she really is trying to scam him.
posted by sohalt at 4:16 AM on December 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
Then again, it can be interesting to do variations on a theme. Mike White certainly seems to think so, because season two has had a lot of repeating motives so far - the couple with marital problems, partly due to one of them being a workaholic, the young wife coming into money, unsure how to feel about this newfound social mobility, the hotel manager trying to hook up with an employee, middle-aged guy with some resentment towards his father, struggling with his own sense of masculinity, his fumbling attempts to bond with his son, a criminal conspiracy against one of the guests, involving some locals and someone from the guest's inner circle who betrays them. It would be almost odd for me to not also repeat the element of the local seeing one of the guests as a potential path towards a new life and seeing their hopes dashed.
Of course this time around things might shake out differently - the couple breaking up, the young wife turning her back on a life of luxury, the criminal conspiracy succeeding. But I am pretty certain for instance that the criminal conspiracy will fail again, and again, at great cost to the criminal conspirators - Tanya is already announced to be part of a potential third season, apparently still rich enough to afford the White Lotus. It's the emotional valence that will be different. Last time I think viewers were supposed to feel a fair bit of sympathy for the conspirators, at least for Kai, the staffer who gets roped by Paula into a risky robbery scheme, ruining his future. I guess this time I would also have a bit of sympathy for Jack, whose life seems quite tragic, and who might be the one who pays the highest price for this stunt. It would also once again support an overarching theme of the show - how the rich are proteced by their privilege, and the poor get no margin of error. But last time I also had a bit of sympathy for Paula, the rich girl's poorer friend, whose recklessness dooms her lover, but who seemed to be genuinely wanting to help him. This time around I don't think I would have any sympathy for Quentin and Greg, even though love might be once again one of the motivations for the crime.
Then we have Valentia - she gets the message and backs off from the receptionist - only to then hook up with Mia, her piano player, another employee/contractor, who desperately wants her to give her a permanent contract, thereby once again exploiting a hierarchical relationship. But this time at least Mia is the one who suggests it; she gets a lot more focus and agency in the narrative.
I also think the emotional valence of Albie disappointing Lucia would be different - there are, after all, some reasons to think that she really is trying to scam him.
posted by sohalt at 4:16 AM on December 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
All of the characters have at least some redeeming features at this stage
What are Cameron's? He seems like 100% douchebag to me.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:29 AM on December 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
What are Cameron's? He seems like 100% douchebag to me.
posted by Paul Slade at 4:29 AM on December 9, 2022 [1 favorite]
What are Cameron's? He seems like 100% douchebag to me.
At least he seems genuinely attracted to his wife? I mean, sure, that won't stop him from hitting on everyone else, but I guess he might really believe he's in a sort of don't ask/don't tell open marriage. He's probably like Albie's grandpa, convinced that he loves his wife, and completely outraged at the notion that his sleeping around could be seen as detracting from that love. I mean, I'm sure he couldn't handle the revelation that the kids aren't his, so you might argue he's a bit of a hypocrite, but then again, you could also argue that carte blanche about sleeping around doesn't necessarily mean carte blanche for intransparent family planning.
I think Cameron also had a quite humanizing moment at dinner, when he seemed genuinely stricken recounting Daphne's difficult labor. I mean, sure, it's a bit questionable how he centered himself in that ordeal, but I did totally buy his fear of losing her in that moment. A glimpse of genuine, relatable emotion and vulnerability. (I still think he's probably a bad dad - the kids really never seem to be on his mind at all).
Now, as I said before, he's still totally my first pick as a sacrifice to Ceres. He has no respect for other people's boundaries. But right now, for instance, I don't think he's out to kill anyone on purpose, which potentially makes him morally superior to other characters on this show I kinda sympathize with more.
posted by sohalt at 4:48 AM on December 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
At least he seems genuinely attracted to his wife? I mean, sure, that won't stop him from hitting on everyone else, but I guess he might really believe he's in a sort of don't ask/don't tell open marriage. He's probably like Albie's grandpa, convinced that he loves his wife, and completely outraged at the notion that his sleeping around could be seen as detracting from that love. I mean, I'm sure he couldn't handle the revelation that the kids aren't his, so you might argue he's a bit of a hypocrite, but then again, you could also argue that carte blanche about sleeping around doesn't necessarily mean carte blanche for intransparent family planning.
I think Cameron also had a quite humanizing moment at dinner, when he seemed genuinely stricken recounting Daphne's difficult labor. I mean, sure, it's a bit questionable how he centered himself in that ordeal, but I did totally buy his fear of losing her in that moment. A glimpse of genuine, relatable emotion and vulnerability. (I still think he's probably a bad dad - the kids really never seem to be on his mind at all).
Now, as I said before, he's still totally my first pick as a sacrifice to Ceres. He has no respect for other people's boundaries. But right now, for instance, I don't think he's out to kill anyone on purpose, which potentially makes him morally superior to other characters on this show I kinda sympathize with more.
posted by sohalt at 4:48 AM on December 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
I doubt the writers would want to repeat themselves to that extent.
I would tend to agree with this if there were a writing staff, but as Mike White is the sole credited writer on every episode of the show, I'm willing to chalk it up to authorial intent with variations on a theme, rather than repetitiveness due to oversight.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:02 PM on December 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
I would tend to agree with this if there were a writing staff, but as Mike White is the sole credited writer on every episode of the show, I'm willing to chalk it up to authorial intent with variations on a theme, rather than repetitiveness due to oversight.
posted by Atom Eyes at 1:02 PM on December 9, 2022 [2 favorites]
This is a huuuuuuge stretch. Drunk Jack was singing "I'm forever blowing bubbles", which I can never hear without thinking of Ken Russell's "Women in Love". A film that (spoiler alert) includes a married couple drowning as a background plot point and ends with a jealous man attempting to strangle his lover and then wandering off to commit suicide.
The song is also the punchline of an off-colour joke about Michael Jackson's chimp - who survives him to this day having led a rather White Lotus like life of pampering in luxury hotels of the world and suicide attempts. We see a monkey rather than a chimp in the credits - but hey - huuuuuge stretches! In Jack's case: also the song of West Ham supporters.
Jack also has the West Ham hammers tattooed on his arm.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 4:59 PM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
The song is also the punchline of an off-colour joke about Michael Jackson's chimp - who survives him to this day having led a rather White Lotus like life of pampering in luxury hotels of the world and suicide attempts. We see a monkey rather than a chimp in the credits - but hey - huuuuuge stretches! In Jack's case: also the song of West Ham supporters.
Jack also has the West Ham hammers tattooed on his arm.
posted by Special Agent Dale Cooper at 4:59 PM on December 10, 2022 [3 favorites]
I think either Ethan will either snap (and perhaps suicidally so - I could see a head-on collision with Cam in one last jet ski outing) or will actually experience some sort of personal growth.
Yeah that earlier game of chicken with the jet skis was so drawn out and visually memorable, I feel like it has to lead to something, and it would fit in with the opening setup. Although-- as someone suggested, I think with regard to the themes in the opening montage frescos-- there are a plethora of things that seem designed to make you think, "I knew that!" when the reveal happens, whatever it is. This one could certainly justify itself as a visual representation of the financial and sexual games being played.
If it was a jet ski accident killing one or both of they guys, I wonder who the additional bodies were. Maybe some of Tanya's friends in some sort of boat drinks situation where they were also going to plan to drown Tanya?
posted by BibiRose at 6:56 AM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
Yeah that earlier game of chicken with the jet skis was so drawn out and visually memorable, I feel like it has to lead to something, and it would fit in with the opening setup. Although-- as someone suggested, I think with regard to the themes in the opening montage frescos-- there are a plethora of things that seem designed to make you think, "I knew that!" when the reveal happens, whatever it is. This one could certainly justify itself as a visual representation of the financial and sexual games being played.
If it was a jet ski accident killing one or both of they guys, I wonder who the additional bodies were. Maybe some of Tanya's friends in some sort of boat drinks situation where they were also going to plan to drown Tanya?
posted by BibiRose at 6:56 AM on December 11, 2022 [1 favorite]
I was desperately avoiding work yesterday and got lost in Art-History/White-Lotus-conspiracy-theory TikTok. The paintings in the hotel rooms seem to hold a lot of clues to the themes, etc.
There are for instance, two paintings depicting Lucrezia/The Rape of Lucrezia - one shown in a scene of Harper in her hotel room, one shown in a scene with Tanya in Quentin's palazzo. Lucrezia is a Roman noblewoman, whose marital fidelity is "tested" by the prince Tarquinius. He assaults her in her bedroom and blackmails her by threatening her reputation. Lucrezia tells her husband, and then kills herself - the husband in turn kills the prince.
It's easo to see parallels to both Harper and in Tanya. Cameron certainly struts around like a prince, and he has been testing Harper's fidelity since episode one. He clearly isn't terribly concerned with consent. He might try to escalate his flirtation with Harper, intending to play it off as another prank in case she's not up for it (like sneaking up on her in the water, or entering her room through that door and surprising her in her bed when Ethan isn't there). He could also try to blackmail her (eg. to overcome her resistance, or to get her support for an investment into his lastest scheme) - Ethan suspects infidelity already, and Cameron could easily claim that he really went into their room that time to have sex with her.
Tanya also has her marital fidelity tested by Quentin, who probably wants to help Greg exploit the infidelity clause in their pre-nup and intends to blackmail her with video footage of her adventure with the Italian stud.
The Lucretia-story also reenforces the suicide allusions. I think that one of the deaths will be suicide, but I don't see that danger for Harper or Tanya. The Lucretia-painting shown in Tanya's scene doesn't seem to be an original, but version of the motif specifically created for the show in that particular style. Lucretia is shown naked and holding a knife, like most Lucretias in art, usually depicted in the moment before killing themselves. This Lucretia however looks like she very much intends to kill someone other than herself. I do think Harper and Tanya are not entirely defenseless.
The person who's more likely to die is Tarquinius, the prince - either killed by the avenging husband, or this time, by Lucretia herself. I could also see Quentin killing himself, when he realizes that his plot failed and he will have to sell the villa. I don't think that Cameron would be outright revenge-killed by either Harper or Ethan, but he could very much die as a result of fucking around and finding out, killed more or less accidentially. (Eg. he and Harper are walking near a cliff, he comes on too strongly, she shoves him off - whops, over the cliff he goes. Or he "pranks" Harper again, Ethan sees it, doesn't think it's funny, gets more and more aggressive - accidentially kills Cameron in a fight, or challenges him to another speedboating race, or some similiar stunt of that nature, and they both die).
There's also an opera about the Rape of Lucretia, which adds another interesting angle. In the opera, the whole thing is set up by another character, Junius, a friend of Tarquinius, who gives him the entire idea about the fidelity test in the first place, fully intending to bait him into reckless behavior likely to earn him the hostility of Lucretia's husband. Because Junius knows that Tarquinius will fuck up, and he wants to use his very likely crime to get him killed and spark a rebellion against the King. Which is exactly how the story ends - a happy ending for Junius.
This would fit perfectly with my "Daphne is the mastermind"-theory. She has been very enabling, when it comes to Harper and Cameron, to say the least. Her modus operandi so far is definitely along the lines of "giving people ideas". And in this version of the story, too, she might be the one to get her happy ending. At least we definitely know she survives.
Also, Cameron is so totally the pig in the opening credits that will be sacrificed to Ceres - I've just rewatched a scene where he even calls himself "a materialist pig".
He also probably doomed, because he's got a bird tatoo. Birds are associated with Harper (who is shown as a bird, fighting another bird). They are also used as ominuous omens throughout the show (people looking at birds when the mood turns somber, birds being shown immediately after flash-forward with the corpse). Finally they are associated with Zeus - the swan in Leda and the swan, seduction by false pretense, betrayal, which results in suicide or murder in many of the stories already alluded to.
Another person with a bird tattoo is Jack, who is also very high on my list of likely corpses. Portia was wearing a sweater with swans on it in one of the first episodes. His courtship of her certainly relies on him hiding his true form from her, pretending to be someone else.
Mia is maybe the most obvious swan for a Leda, wearing a feathery white outfit when hooking up with Valentina, but I hope that's where the parallels end. But she seems more at risk than Lucia according to this pattern. And she's got the masterkey, which might tempt her into being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
posted by sohalt at 8:47 AM on December 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
There are for instance, two paintings depicting Lucrezia/The Rape of Lucrezia - one shown in a scene of Harper in her hotel room, one shown in a scene with Tanya in Quentin's palazzo. Lucrezia is a Roman noblewoman, whose marital fidelity is "tested" by the prince Tarquinius. He assaults her in her bedroom and blackmails her by threatening her reputation. Lucrezia tells her husband, and then kills herself - the husband in turn kills the prince.
It's easo to see parallels to both Harper and in Tanya. Cameron certainly struts around like a prince, and he has been testing Harper's fidelity since episode one. He clearly isn't terribly concerned with consent. He might try to escalate his flirtation with Harper, intending to play it off as another prank in case she's not up for it (like sneaking up on her in the water, or entering her room through that door and surprising her in her bed when Ethan isn't there). He could also try to blackmail her (eg. to overcome her resistance, or to get her support for an investment into his lastest scheme) - Ethan suspects infidelity already, and Cameron could easily claim that he really went into their room that time to have sex with her.
Tanya also has her marital fidelity tested by Quentin, who probably wants to help Greg exploit the infidelity clause in their pre-nup and intends to blackmail her with video footage of her adventure with the Italian stud.
The Lucretia-story also reenforces the suicide allusions. I think that one of the deaths will be suicide, but I don't see that danger for Harper or Tanya. The Lucretia-painting shown in Tanya's scene doesn't seem to be an original, but version of the motif specifically created for the show in that particular style. Lucretia is shown naked and holding a knife, like most Lucretias in art, usually depicted in the moment before killing themselves. This Lucretia however looks like she very much intends to kill someone other than herself. I do think Harper and Tanya are not entirely defenseless.
The person who's more likely to die is Tarquinius, the prince - either killed by the avenging husband, or this time, by Lucretia herself. I could also see Quentin killing himself, when he realizes that his plot failed and he will have to sell the villa. I don't think that Cameron would be outright revenge-killed by either Harper or Ethan, but he could very much die as a result of fucking around and finding out, killed more or less accidentially. (Eg. he and Harper are walking near a cliff, he comes on too strongly, she shoves him off - whops, over the cliff he goes. Or he "pranks" Harper again, Ethan sees it, doesn't think it's funny, gets more and more aggressive - accidentially kills Cameron in a fight, or challenges him to another speedboating race, or some similiar stunt of that nature, and they both die).
There's also an opera about the Rape of Lucretia, which adds another interesting angle. In the opera, the whole thing is set up by another character, Junius, a friend of Tarquinius, who gives him the entire idea about the fidelity test in the first place, fully intending to bait him into reckless behavior likely to earn him the hostility of Lucretia's husband. Because Junius knows that Tarquinius will fuck up, and he wants to use his very likely crime to get him killed and spark a rebellion against the King. Which is exactly how the story ends - a happy ending for Junius.
This would fit perfectly with my "Daphne is the mastermind"-theory. She has been very enabling, when it comes to Harper and Cameron, to say the least. Her modus operandi so far is definitely along the lines of "giving people ideas". And in this version of the story, too, she might be the one to get her happy ending. At least we definitely know she survives.
Also, Cameron is so totally the pig in the opening credits that will be sacrificed to Ceres - I've just rewatched a scene where he even calls himself "a materialist pig".
He also probably doomed, because he's got a bird tatoo. Birds are associated with Harper (who is shown as a bird, fighting another bird). They are also used as ominuous omens throughout the show (people looking at birds when the mood turns somber, birds being shown immediately after flash-forward with the corpse). Finally they are associated with Zeus - the swan in Leda and the swan, seduction by false pretense, betrayal, which results in suicide or murder in many of the stories already alluded to.
Another person with a bird tattoo is Jack, who is also very high on my list of likely corpses. Portia was wearing a sweater with swans on it in one of the first episodes. His courtship of her certainly relies on him hiding his true form from her, pretending to be someone else.
Mia is maybe the most obvious swan for a Leda, wearing a feathery white outfit when hooking up with Valentina, but I hope that's where the parallels end. But she seems more at risk than Lucia according to this pattern. And she's got the masterkey, which might tempt her into being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
posted by sohalt at 8:47 AM on December 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
Since I haven’t seen anyone mention it, there’s a great Fresh Air interview with Mike White this week. Very human and insightful. The biggest mindblower for me was him saying that Lucia and Mia are more than a little influenced by Laverne & Shirley: two working-class women always trying to sneak into the party where they’re not invited. Now I can’t unsee it!
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:56 AM on December 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:56 AM on December 11, 2022 [9 favorites]
Look, if someone throws an elaborate cocaine party that involves yachts and hustlers just to murder little old me, yeah, I am going to be a bit self-absorbed!
posted by armacy at 1:54 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by armacy at 1:54 PM on December 13, 2022 [1 favorite]
Just wanted to shout out the ridiculous costume they put Tanya in for the party. It looks absolutely awful, like she's wrapped in a circus tent. It somehow makes her look both shapeless and yet also curvy but not in a good way, just overweight. Jennifer Coolidge has been great in this season. I admire her willingness to play this character in all her unattractive and yet strangely sympathetic glory.
(Also one false note in the show; Tanya and Portia seem shocked that chav fuckboy might not actually be the literal biological nephew of The Gays. I mean seriously? A group of older party gay men show up with a hot young man and call him "my nephew"? That's a euphemism even older than A Death in Venice.)
posted by Nelson at 6:32 AM on December 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
(Also one false note in the show; Tanya and Portia seem shocked that chav fuckboy might not actually be the literal biological nephew of The Gays. I mean seriously? A group of older party gay men show up with a hot young man and call him "my nephew"? That's a euphemism even older than A Death in Venice.)
posted by Nelson at 6:32 AM on December 18, 2022 [2 favorites]
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posted by Violet Blue at 9:55 PM on December 4, 2022