Succession: Honeymoon States
April 17, 2023 5:29 AM - Season 4, Episode 4 - Subscribe
At a family gathering, certain long-standing tensions between the Roy siblings are once again underscored.
Kendall Logan Roy
Kendall Logan Roy
Greg?
Kendall Logan Roy
Greg?
All I can say is “LONG LIVE THE KING and long live the other king.”
Actually, that was perhaps the most quotable episode ever, if I were to pick out the best lines it would basically just be the whole hour long script.
posted by chill at 6:17 AM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Actually, that was perhaps the most quotable episode ever, if I were to pick out the best lines it would basically just be the whole hour long script.
posted by chill at 6:17 AM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yeah I feel pretty sure that "I'm twin track. I'm dead but I'm alive" is going to take up residence in my conversational repertoire
posted by ejs at 6:30 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ejs at 6:30 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
— I could watch a whole show's worth of Marcia being nasty.
Not as nasty as Willa: “Look at us both.”
posted by Pendragon at 6:45 AM on April 17, 2023 [18 favorites]
Not as nasty as Willa: “Look at us both.”
posted by Pendragon at 6:45 AM on April 17, 2023 [18 favorites]
On a show noted for it's world class performances, the best performance of the night came from the prop person who drew that line.
I didn't know I wanted more Karl and Frank but OMG do I want more Karl and Frank!
posted by Frayed Knot at 6:56 AM on April 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
I didn't know I wanted more Karl and Frank but OMG do I want more Karl and Frank!
posted by Frayed Knot at 6:56 AM on April 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
When Kendall finally said, yes, let's throw Logan under the bus after all, I remembered the expression on Logan's face last time he did that. "That's my boy."
I don't like Shiv any more than I like the rest of them. And I don't think she's remotely qualified to take over, but I felt for her, completely in spite of myself.
Am I right in thinking Tom knows Shiv is pregnant and thinks it's his?
posted by BibiRose at 7:40 AM on April 17, 2023
I don't like Shiv any more than I like the rest of them. And I don't think she's remotely qualified to take over, but I felt for her, completely in spite of myself.
Am I right in thinking Tom knows Shiv is pregnant and thinks it's his?
posted by BibiRose at 7:40 AM on April 17, 2023
Shiv being pregnant explains a lot about her wardrobe this season (and hair!). From ep 1: “I don’t just want to be limited to my favorites.”
posted by jeoc at 8:02 AM on April 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by jeoc at 8:02 AM on April 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I would watch a spin-off that is just Marcia. She *knows* things. And I about died when she spit on her hand to shake with Connor. The part when Willa is like planning her future renovations seemed weird to me but I guess why not.
I love seeing the siblings together and the old suits (Gerri, Frank and Karl) together. The part when they were decoding Logan’s obituary was great (he finally got roasted). My heart broke a little when the siblings asked Connor to give them the room but he accepted it, like he knows that fight is done. I kind of love Frank? His relationship with Kendall is like dad/dad-translator. And I think he’s right about Logan’s feelings toward Ken.
Maybe I am extremely dumb but when Stephen Root started talking, I was like, wait, this is a wake?? I thought it was a board meeting? Maybe I’m just used to a wake being a more formal thing. It was weird to see Ravenhead there and as soon as I saw the dog, I knew Mencken was en route.
Omg Gerri’s comment about how Karl was good with cable in the 90s was such a solid neg.
My feelings toward Tom are softening. He’s an opportunist surely but it was endearing how he stayed on the phone for so long in the last episode so the kids could say goodbye. The part where he was mocking Logan was rough but funny, and good on him for getting it out. It seemed like he was trying to be a good partner by the stairs with Shiv.
Poor Shiv. What a time to be knocked up. She seems lost. I can’t tell who knows she’s expecting. When she was with Roman and Kendall, she referred to “the embryo” and I assume Marcis knows everything but does Tom? I can’t tell because I feel like people would have jumped up a lot more when she fell if her pregnancy was common knowledge. If she had amnio, there must have been a concern about it and she’s got to be in her second trimester. From experience, falling down during pregnancy should lead to a trip to the ER.
My feelings are not softening towards Greg.
Colin not knowing what to do with his arms *tear* though weirdly that echoes Kerry’s weird arms in her demo tape?
Questions:
- why did Marcia tell Kendall she and Logan talked every morning and afternoon, then said they talked every night?
- why was Roman so concerned about Kerry? He has never liked her. Maybe he was freaked out to see her crying but he asked for her number twice which was unusual.
posted by kat518 at 8:12 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I love seeing the siblings together and the old suits (Gerri, Frank and Karl) together. The part when they were decoding Logan’s obituary was great (he finally got roasted). My heart broke a little when the siblings asked Connor to give them the room but he accepted it, like he knows that fight is done. I kind of love Frank? His relationship with Kendall is like dad/dad-translator. And I think he’s right about Logan’s feelings toward Ken.
Maybe I am extremely dumb but when Stephen Root started talking, I was like, wait, this is a wake?? I thought it was a board meeting? Maybe I’m just used to a wake being a more formal thing. It was weird to see Ravenhead there and as soon as I saw the dog, I knew Mencken was en route.
Omg Gerri’s comment about how Karl was good with cable in the 90s was such a solid neg.
My feelings toward Tom are softening. He’s an opportunist surely but it was endearing how he stayed on the phone for so long in the last episode so the kids could say goodbye. The part where he was mocking Logan was rough but funny, and good on him for getting it out. It seemed like he was trying to be a good partner by the stairs with Shiv.
Poor Shiv. What a time to be knocked up. She seems lost. I can’t tell who knows she’s expecting. When she was with Roman and Kendall, she referred to “the embryo” and I assume Marcis knows everything but does Tom? I can’t tell because I feel like people would have jumped up a lot more when she fell if her pregnancy was common knowledge. If she had amnio, there must have been a concern about it and she’s got to be in her second trimester. From experience, falling down during pregnancy should lead to a trip to the ER.
My feelings are not softening towards Greg.
Colin not knowing what to do with his arms *tear* though weirdly that echoes Kerry’s weird arms in her demo tape?
Questions:
- why did Marcia tell Kendall she and Logan talked every morning and afternoon, then said they talked every night?
- why was Roman so concerned about Kerry? He has never liked her. Maybe he was freaked out to see her crying but he asked for her number twice which was unusual.
posted by kat518 at 8:12 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't like Shiv any more than I like the rest of them. And I don't think she's remotely qualified to take over, but I felt for her, completely in spite of myself.
Shiv's arc on the show is an odd one. She never really had any reason to fight for the crown beyond Logan himself. Now that he's gone, why does she care so much about the CEO job? I was surprised when, during the letter reveal, she immediately said Ken's name could have been crossed out, not underlined. It was very cruel, something she might have said last season but not now that she seems to be getting along well with her siblings.
- why did Marcia tell Kendall she and Logan talked every morning and afternoon, then said they talked every night?
She wanted to paint herself as more involved than she actually was. She's been out of the picture for a while now.
- why was Roman so concerned about Kerry? He has never liked her. Maybe he was freaked out to see her crying but he asked for her number twice which was unusual.
I didn't read that as actual empathy or concern, as apparently others here did. It seemed like he was just trying to manage and minimize the situation so she would shut up and leave.
The real question is how Kerry got up there in the first place, since Marcia had told her to stay way. I guess Marcia forgot to tell security to stop her from coming in?
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:19 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Shiv's arc on the show is an odd one. She never really had any reason to fight for the crown beyond Logan himself. Now that he's gone, why does she care so much about the CEO job? I was surprised when, during the letter reveal, she immediately said Ken's name could have been crossed out, not underlined. It was very cruel, something she might have said last season but not now that she seems to be getting along well with her siblings.
- why did Marcia tell Kendall she and Logan talked every morning and afternoon, then said they talked every night?
She wanted to paint herself as more involved than she actually was. She's been out of the picture for a while now.
- why was Roman so concerned about Kerry? He has never liked her. Maybe he was freaked out to see her crying but he asked for her number twice which was unusual.
I didn't read that as actual empathy or concern, as apparently others here did. It seemed like he was just trying to manage and minimize the situation so she would shut up and leave.
The real question is how Kerry got up there in the first place, since Marcia had told her to stay way. I guess Marcia forgot to tell security to stop her from coming in?
posted by star gentle uterus at 8:19 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I thought it was weird that Marcia specifically told one person they talked every morning and afternoon, then told someone else they talked every night. That felt deliberate on her part and intentional re: the writers. The comments came one after the other. She didn’t say they talked every day or all the time. I know their relationship was complicated but I don’t know what her angle is. If it’s a lie, why bother? They’re married. Legally I’m sure she’s fine.
Similarly with Roman and Kerry - it didn’t seem like he was consoling her or trying to calm her down or get her out as soon as he could. He specifically mentioned getting her number twice. I’m sure people have Kerry’s number. I feel like I’ve never seen anyone on the show do anything as pedestrian as exchange numbers. Why does he want to make sure he has her digits?
Also wtf Hugo - you don’t talk to your daughter except to let her know the CEO of your company died before that becomes public info? That doesn’t make sense.
posted by kat518 at 8:32 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Similarly with Roman and Kerry - it didn’t seem like he was consoling her or trying to calm her down or get her out as soon as he could. He specifically mentioned getting her number twice. I’m sure people have Kerry’s number. I feel like I’ve never seen anyone on the show do anything as pedestrian as exchange numbers. Why does he want to make sure he has her digits?
Also wtf Hugo - you don’t talk to your daughter except to let her know the CEO of your company died before that becomes public info? That doesn’t make sense.
posted by kat518 at 8:32 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Re: Shiv, I agree that she basically has no business throwing her hat in the ring to be CEO. But she was looking at potentially becoming the president’s chief of staff and she burnt that bridge because Logan told her she’d be the next CEO. Logan messed with all of the kids’ minds but that’s really rough, especially considering that he occasionally talked about how they need to stand on their own feet - she did and he kneecapped her. And then to see her husband rise through the ranks instead? That’s gotta hurt. Again, I’m not saying it should be her but that sucks for her.
Do you all think Kendall was crossed out or underlined? It looked like he started to underline but why?
(Also hi I don’t know if I’m doing this wrong? I’m used to hanging out on the green where back-and-forth is frowned upon. Is that the case here? Apologies if so, not trying to be a jerk xoxo)
posted by kat518 at 8:42 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Do you all think Kendall was crossed out or underlined? It looked like he started to underline but why?
(Also hi I don’t know if I’m doing this wrong? I’m used to hanging out on the green where back-and-forth is frowned upon. Is that the case here? Apologies if so, not trying to be a jerk xoxo)
posted by kat518 at 8:42 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
What a great episode. All the wheeling and dealing, come uppances, put downs. Great writing, great acting, camera...
posted by jouke at 8:44 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by jouke at 8:44 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
kat518 - chatting is fine, and even encouraged on the purple!
My own feeling is, from context, that it's more likely to be a cross-out, but I agree with Frayed Knot that the ambiguity is perfectly done. Certainly I think that Kendall's actions at the end of the episode suggest that, upon looking at it again, he's decided it's a cross-out.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:50 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
My own feeling is, from context, that it's more likely to be a cross-out, but I agree with Frayed Knot that the ambiguity is perfectly done. Certainly I think that Kendall's actions at the end of the episode suggest that, upon looking at it again, he's decided it's a cross-out.
posted by Ragged Richard at 8:50 AM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
The promise: Kendall and Roman will work together and involve Shiv in everything.
The very first decision, not an hour later (whether to burn Logan's memory for their advantage): No thought of involving Shiv whatsoever, Kendall immediately contradicting the group's decision behind Roman's back.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:52 AM on April 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
The very first decision, not an hour later (whether to burn Logan's memory for their advantage): No thought of involving Shiv whatsoever, Kendall immediately contradicting the group's decision behind Roman's back.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:52 AM on April 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
Similarly with Roman and Kerry - it didn’t seem like he was consoling her or trying to calm her down or get her out as soon as he could. He specifically mentioned getting her number twice. I’m sure people have Kerry’s number. I feel like I’ve never seen anyone on the show do anything as pedestrian as exchange numbers. Why does he want to make sure he has her digits?
I would think everybody would be wanting to mine her for any little bits of information she might have, with all the time she's spent with Logan. Maybe Roman wants to talk to her without anyone else knowing? I don't think that can be all of it though. But it's weird the way they just seem to want to get rid of her. Surely she potentially has some uses.
That thing with Hugo seems blindingly stupid but stories about insider trading usually do.
posted by BibiRose at 9:01 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would think everybody would be wanting to mine her for any little bits of information she might have, with all the time she's spent with Logan. Maybe Roman wants to talk to her without anyone else knowing? I don't think that can be all of it though. But it's weird the way they just seem to want to get rid of her. Surely she potentially has some uses.
That thing with Hugo seems blindingly stupid but stories about insider trading usually do.
posted by BibiRose at 9:01 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I am suspicious that the paper was not somehow adulterated by the suits. I mean, one minute they are "joking" about flushing it down a toilet, and saying they don't want the "little princess" to ruin things, and then the next moment they are openly sharing this paper with the kids. My hunch is that some woman was named in some capacity - Marcia? Shiv? Kerry? Surely there was a printer in the apartment, and pencil scribbles can be forged - it wouldn't be that hard to do.
I have a hard time keeping track of the chronology of the show - if Shiv is 20 weeks pregnant, that means....the baby is or isn't Tom's? How long have they been estranged?
posted by coffeecat at 9:27 AM on April 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
I have a hard time keeping track of the chronology of the show - if Shiv is 20 weeks pregnant, that means....the baby is or isn't Tom's? How long have they been estranged?
posted by coffeecat at 9:27 AM on April 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
saying they don't want the "little princess" to ruin things
Oh, I thought they were saying "little princes," referring to the trio of kids!
Also I'm feeling relieved that Kerry is probably not pregnant--but what was in her bag?? It seemed like 90% pharmacy items?
posted by knotty knots at 9:32 AM on April 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh, I thought they were saying "little princes," referring to the trio of kids!
Also I'm feeling relieved that Kerry is probably not pregnant--but what was in her bag?? It seemed like 90% pharmacy items?
posted by knotty knots at 9:32 AM on April 17, 2023 [5 favorites]
Shiv's arc on the show is an odd one. She never really had any reason to fight for the crown beyond Logan himself. Now that he's gone, why does she care so much about the CEO job? I was surprised when, during the letter reveal, she immediately said Ken's name could have been crossed out, not underlined. It was very cruel, something she might have said last season but not now that she seems to be getting along well with her siblings.
Shiv's defining characteristic is a belief that she's the smartest person in the room. Her initial avoidance of the family business was a total holier-than-thou move: by abstaining, she proved that she was above it all. But she's not immune to that sibling need for her father's approval, and the thing that cracked her at the start of season 2 was that Logan appeared, for a little while, to be telling her that he thought she was the smartest and best too.
My read on the siblings' unity is that they all genuinely get something meaningful out of their newfound connection, and all three of them want to preserve it, albeit in their own ways. I feel like Roman and Shiv both genuinely felt alarm at the possibility of Kendall abandoning them to pursue CEO; I think Kendall thinks that he'll find a way of doing this for all three of them, and convinces himself that he has their best interests at heart. So that's a part of why both Shiv and Roman speak out against Kendall as CEO—not to promote themselves in his place, but certainly to pull him away from that prospect. Same reason why Kendall's going with the Trash Dad option behind Roman's back: he thinks it's the right move, and on some level just wants to do it, but he's telling himself it's for the Three Musketeers, not just for himself.
What I find so devastating about Kendall and Roman shivving Shiv to take CEO and COO respectively is that I do think they make a logical case for their actions. They both have a "what's the big deal?" attitude towards leaving Shiv out, because—again, to their minds—they're not doing this to personally attack Shiv, and are in this solely to raise funds for their Pierce acquisition. But they also do have this mostly-unspoken sense that Shiv isn't "serious" the way that they are, echoing Logan's own feelings. I still sorta feel like, if Shiv was willing to go "Hey, I'm feeling insecure, do you guys respect me," Ken and Roman would attempt to show her some kind of support. Only she'd never do that, both because Shiv is terrified of vulnerability and because she doesn't feel like she deserves to be in a position of neediness where her brothers are concerned, and because none of the siblings know how to be emotionally available in the first place.
Shiv doesn't, though, and neither Ken nor Roman fully understand that this is the worst possible thing they could have done to her. Shiv's entire narrative about herself is that she's The Chosen One, but she's been denied what's rightfully hers and lied to and condescended to; by taking over and denying her a title, her brothers have given her every reason to transfer her loathing of her father onto them. Which will lead, inevitably, to her doing her version of an "I'm really doing this for my brothers' own good" play, probably one that involves her thinking she sees an option that nobody else is smart enough to see, taking it, and fucking things over for everybody.
God, they're all just so perfectly calibrated to ruin things for each other. I love it.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:35 AM on April 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Shiv's defining characteristic is a belief that she's the smartest person in the room. Her initial avoidance of the family business was a total holier-than-thou move: by abstaining, she proved that she was above it all. But she's not immune to that sibling need for her father's approval, and the thing that cracked her at the start of season 2 was that Logan appeared, for a little while, to be telling her that he thought she was the smartest and best too.
My read on the siblings' unity is that they all genuinely get something meaningful out of their newfound connection, and all three of them want to preserve it, albeit in their own ways. I feel like Roman and Shiv both genuinely felt alarm at the possibility of Kendall abandoning them to pursue CEO; I think Kendall thinks that he'll find a way of doing this for all three of them, and convinces himself that he has their best interests at heart. So that's a part of why both Shiv and Roman speak out against Kendall as CEO—not to promote themselves in his place, but certainly to pull him away from that prospect. Same reason why Kendall's going with the Trash Dad option behind Roman's back: he thinks it's the right move, and on some level just wants to do it, but he's telling himself it's for the Three Musketeers, not just for himself.
What I find so devastating about Kendall and Roman shivving Shiv to take CEO and COO respectively is that I do think they make a logical case for their actions. They both have a "what's the big deal?" attitude towards leaving Shiv out, because—again, to their minds—they're not doing this to personally attack Shiv, and are in this solely to raise funds for their Pierce acquisition. But they also do have this mostly-unspoken sense that Shiv isn't "serious" the way that they are, echoing Logan's own feelings. I still sorta feel like, if Shiv was willing to go "Hey, I'm feeling insecure, do you guys respect me," Ken and Roman would attempt to show her some kind of support. Only she'd never do that, both because Shiv is terrified of vulnerability and because she doesn't feel like she deserves to be in a position of neediness where her brothers are concerned, and because none of the siblings know how to be emotionally available in the first place.
Shiv doesn't, though, and neither Ken nor Roman fully understand that this is the worst possible thing they could have done to her. Shiv's entire narrative about herself is that she's The Chosen One, but she's been denied what's rightfully hers and lied to and condescended to; by taking over and denying her a title, her brothers have given her every reason to transfer her loathing of her father onto them. Which will lead, inevitably, to her doing her version of an "I'm really doing this for my brothers' own good" play, probably one that involves her thinking she sees an option that nobody else is smart enough to see, taking it, and fucking things over for everybody.
God, they're all just so perfectly calibrated to ruin things for each other. I love it.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 9:35 AM on April 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
Oh, I thought they were saying "little princes," referring to the trio of kids!
I wondered if I had heard wrong, but the close-captioning provides "little princess" - which I'm assuming is reliable/based on the script?
posted by coffeecat at 9:40 AM on April 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wondered if I had heard wrong, but the close-captioning provides "little princess" - which I'm assuming is reliable/based on the script?
posted by coffeecat at 9:40 AM on April 17, 2023 [4 favorites]
I definitely thought they said “little princess” but I feel relatively confident it’s valid. I don’t know how reliable the captioning is - it’s messed things up before. That said, ultimately I don’t think the letter was meaningful in that the board could have easily said no.
I think the implication is that the babby was conceived the night before the wedding and the betrayal (the night of cringy foreplay). I could definitely be wrong.
I didn’t get a close look but I think the stuff in Kerry’s bag was intended to show she was staying over as it appeared to be largely prescriptions and toiletries.
posted by kat518 at 9:40 AM on April 17, 2023
I think the implication is that the babby was conceived the night before the wedding and the betrayal (the night of cringy foreplay). I could definitely be wrong.
I didn’t get a close look but I think the stuff in Kerry’s bag was intended to show she was staying over as it appeared to be largely prescriptions and toiletries.
posted by kat518 at 9:40 AM on April 17, 2023
Maybe Roman wants to talk to her without anyone else knowing?
Maybe Roman wants to know if Logan got that final voicemail from him ?
posted by Pendragon at 9:41 AM on April 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
Maybe Roman wants to know if Logan got that final voicemail from him ?
posted by Pendragon at 9:41 AM on April 17, 2023 [12 favorites]
which I'm assuming is reliable/based on the script?
As someone affiliated with the content localization process AKA writing out the subtitles in various languages including American English (although definitely not for WB/Discovery), typically the localizers watch the content and then do the localization based off what they see/hear. Sometimes they start off with subtitles translated from another language as baseline, sometimes they don't. Good localization lives and dies on the fact on how clued into the local context of the material. But, even a good localizer might run into situations where the context allows for multiple equally valid interpretations.
Also, the shooting script often doesn't line up anyway. I know for this show specifically there is a lot of improvising in rehearsals that gets folded into the dialog during the actual shoot. The whole Roman/Gerri "romantic" subplot came out of weird looks J. Smith-Cameron and Kieran Culkin started giving each other during rehearsals.
But, I offer the possibility that the princess/prices line was a verbal edition the underlined/crossed-out situation, and it was on purpose.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:12 AM on April 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
As someone affiliated with the content localization process AKA writing out the subtitles in various languages including American English (although definitely not for WB/Discovery), typically the localizers watch the content and then do the localization based off what they see/hear. Sometimes they start off with subtitles translated from another language as baseline, sometimes they don't. Good localization lives and dies on the fact on how clued into the local context of the material. But, even a good localizer might run into situations where the context allows for multiple equally valid interpretations.
Also, the shooting script often doesn't line up anyway. I know for this show specifically there is a lot of improvising in rehearsals that gets folded into the dialog during the actual shoot. The whole Roman/Gerri "romantic" subplot came out of weird looks J. Smith-Cameron and Kieran Culkin started giving each other during rehearsals.
But, I offer the possibility that the princess/prices line was a verbal edition the underlined/crossed-out situation, and it was on purpose.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:12 AM on April 17, 2023 [13 favorites]
Tom reminding Shiv of the beginning of their courtship. Such a hypnotising talk, you can tell why he ended up where he is, and she drifts away for a few moments, thinking back of those ecstatic moments. And then she snaps out of it "that was a long time ago"
Great acting, great writing.
posted by jouke at 10:13 AM on April 17, 2023
Great acting, great writing.
posted by jouke at 10:13 AM on April 17, 2023
I wish they had set up the insider trading thing with Hugo's daughter more. It felt kind of clunky coming out of nowhere like this. Maybe they could have had Hugo in the background of a scene saying something like "I can't talk right now, the boss just died, everything is crazy".
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:14 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:14 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Watching the scene again, the subs have to be wrong. "Princes" just makes more sense both in the context of the scene and what happens in the episode.
Though the exchange is kind of odd: Karl makes the princess/princes comment, then his very next comment is about not letting Geri force him out. Which would imply that, if he did say "princess", he's referring to Geri? But that makes no sense, and then Geri walks in and they just discuss the letter with her.
Though, as noted above, it's also odd that all three executives very pointedly discuss "losing" the letter and then...show it to everyone? Very strange. I don't think, as suggested above, the letter they showed everyone was a forgery. It's one thing to "lose" a document, a very different thing to outright forge one. And they wouldn't have to do that: if they didn't want anyone to know about the letter they could have just "lost" it and said nothing to anyone else about it, unless they wanted to use it to encourage Ken to step up, which they clearly didn't.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:27 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Though the exchange is kind of odd: Karl makes the princess/princes comment, then his very next comment is about not letting Geri force him out. Which would imply that, if he did say "princess", he's referring to Geri? But that makes no sense, and then Geri walks in and they just discuss the letter with her.
Though, as noted above, it's also odd that all three executives very pointedly discuss "losing" the letter and then...show it to everyone? Very strange. I don't think, as suggested above, the letter they showed everyone was a forgery. It's one thing to "lose" a document, a very different thing to outright forge one. And they wouldn't have to do that: if they didn't want anyone to know about the letter they could have just "lost" it and said nothing to anyone else about it, unless they wanted to use it to encourage Ken to step up, which they clearly didn't.
posted by star gentle uterus at 10:27 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
wait, this is a wake??
It appeared to be an open house/reception related to the funeral. There's no reason for Connor and Willa or Colin to attend a board meeting and no reason it would be held at Logan's apartment.
I don't know that Tom is a good partner so much as trying desperately to find a patron with Logan gone. I don't think his conversation with Shiv is 100% self-serving, but it's not not self-serving. I don't think he knows about her pregnancy.
When she was with Roman and Kendall, she referred to “the embryo”
This is Logan's joking name for Menken, the presidential candidate ATN is backing.
I don't think anyone knows about Shiv's pregnancy (except maybe Marcia, but she's just perceptive not a confidant). They would be talking about it much more. Roman would be making jokes. Tom would be leveraging it to get them back together. Someone would be trying to make conversation with her about it.
I think Roman wants to talk to Kerry because she might know (1) that his dad just pulled him back into the inner circle and may know about Logan wanting Roman to succeed him and (2) whether he listened to his "cunt" voicemail before he died and/or if this contributed to his death.
I agree that it is "princes" not "princess." I watch everything with subtitles and thought it was weird that the subtitles got it wrong in such a confusing way.
The thing about "losing" the letter is that they don't really know if it is the only copy or if anyone else knows about it. Not only is it unethical but it is also risky. I think once Gerri says, "It's not germane!" everyone relaxed about it.
This episode was really dense. Definitely need a rewatch.
posted by jeoc at 10:43 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
It appeared to be an open house/reception related to the funeral. There's no reason for Connor and Willa or Colin to attend a board meeting and no reason it would be held at Logan's apartment.
I don't know that Tom is a good partner so much as trying desperately to find a patron with Logan gone. I don't think his conversation with Shiv is 100% self-serving, but it's not not self-serving. I don't think he knows about her pregnancy.
When she was with Roman and Kendall, she referred to “the embryo”
This is Logan's joking name for Menken, the presidential candidate ATN is backing.
I don't think anyone knows about Shiv's pregnancy (except maybe Marcia, but she's just perceptive not a confidant). They would be talking about it much more. Roman would be making jokes. Tom would be leveraging it to get them back together. Someone would be trying to make conversation with her about it.
I think Roman wants to talk to Kerry because she might know (1) that his dad just pulled him back into the inner circle and may know about Logan wanting Roman to succeed him and (2) whether he listened to his "cunt" voicemail before he died and/or if this contributed to his death.
I agree that it is "princes" not "princess." I watch everything with subtitles and thought it was weird that the subtitles got it wrong in such a confusing way.
The thing about "losing" the letter is that they don't really know if it is the only copy or if anyone else knows about it. Not only is it unethical but it is also risky. I think once Gerri says, "It's not germane!" everyone relaxed about it.
This episode was really dense. Definitely need a rewatch.
posted by jeoc at 10:43 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Shiv's defining characteristic is a belief that she's the smartest person in the room.
I think she thinks she’s the -est person in the room. Maybe most morally correct? Most strategic? Right-est?
I don’t think Tom knows she’s pregnant. If he did, he would have freaked out when she fell. I think the talk by the stairs was not not self-serving but I think the subtext was personal, not professional.
I don’t think Roman’s voicemail will resurface as a plot point. I’m not convinced that Logan would have keeled over because his son called him something that he calls other people. I did think it was poignant when Shiv blamed herself for his death.
It would have made sense to me if Kendall and Roman had said to Shiv that they’d take interim roles and she’d have a senior (or the senior) role at Pierce after the acquisition.
posted by kat518 at 11:14 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think she thinks she’s the -est person in the room. Maybe most morally correct? Most strategic? Right-est?
I don’t think Tom knows she’s pregnant. If he did, he would have freaked out when she fell. I think the talk by the stairs was not not self-serving but I think the subtext was personal, not professional.
I don’t think Roman’s voicemail will resurface as a plot point. I’m not convinced that Logan would have keeled over because his son called him something that he calls other people. I did think it was poignant when Shiv blamed herself for his death.
It would have made sense to me if Kendall and Roman had said to Shiv that they’d take interim roles and she’d have a senior (or the senior) role at Pierce after the acquisition.
posted by kat518 at 11:14 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I wonder if Shiv will get another vote when she has a child.
From now on the show will be a cage match. 12 or so enter, 1 is left standing. One by one they'll fall. Kerry was the first.
posted by jouke at 11:18 AM on April 17, 2023
From now on the show will be a cage match. 12 or so enter, 1 is left standing. One by one they'll fall. Kerry was the first.
posted by jouke at 11:18 AM on April 17, 2023
It would have made sense to me if Kendall and Roman had said to Shiv that they’d take interim roles and she’d have a senior (or the senior) role at Pierce after the acquisition.
But from a practical POV, why would they? It's self-serving but they are objectively right: she has zero business experience. It seems like she hadn't even worked at any company until less than a year ago, and her brief tenure at Waystar was, as Ken(?) put it, "Daddy make-work". She's done politics, but she's not equipped in any way to run what would be one of the country's largest media organizations. And it's not even up to them: the proposed new Pierce/ATN transaction is being done with a number of other investors putting up the majority of the money. They wouldn't agree to Shiv for the same reason the Waystar board wouldn't.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:48 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
But from a practical POV, why would they? It's self-serving but they are objectively right: she has zero business experience. It seems like she hadn't even worked at any company until less than a year ago, and her brief tenure at Waystar was, as Ken(?) put it, "Daddy make-work". She's done politics, but she's not equipped in any way to run what would be one of the country's largest media organizations. And it's not even up to them: the proposed new Pierce/ATN transaction is being done with a number of other investors putting up the majority of the money. They wouldn't agree to Shiv for the same reason the Waystar board wouldn't.
posted by star gentle uterus at 11:48 AM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
My preseason prediction was that Tom was going to end up on top; it certainly doesn't look that way right now, he got absolutely evicerated in this episode. But if they somehow manage it, wow would that be a hell of a plot needle to thread.
posted by mcstayinskool at 12:39 PM on April 17, 2023
posted by mcstayinskool at 12:39 PM on April 17, 2023
But from a practical POV, why would they?
I’m just spitballing but the Pierce deal is fragile and Nan likes Shiv. I’m not saying she should be CEO but she could manage the acquisition on paper if nothing else, then take on a leadership role. The fact that she’s an outsider would likely play well with the Pierce side of the deal. That said, I don’t think Roman is qualified and Kendall, though qualified, is not actually a good choice. So if they’re getting promoted, I think Firecrotch might as well.
posted by kat518 at 12:41 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m just spitballing but the Pierce deal is fragile and Nan likes Shiv. I’m not saying she should be CEO but she could manage the acquisition on paper if nothing else, then take on a leadership role. The fact that she’s an outsider would likely play well with the Pierce side of the deal. That said, I don’t think Roman is qualified and Kendall, though qualified, is not actually a good choice. So if they’re getting promoted, I think Firecrotch might as well.
posted by kat518 at 12:41 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
My preseason prediction was that Tom was going to end up on top
Still waiting to find out what was in Chekhov’s logistics folder.
posted by kat518 at 12:43 PM on April 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
Still waiting to find out what was in Chekhov’s logistics folder.
posted by kat518 at 12:43 PM on April 17, 2023 [9 favorites]
Tom's obsequious fight for survival ("I'm here to serve. I'm here to be of service.") was beyond cringey. He knows he's in terrible trouble, and I wonder how he'll react when he learns of the pregnancy. How much further can he grovel? And I'm sure he'll be on his knees begging for Shiv to take him back, once he knows about the baby.
Gerri absolutely killed it this week. I knew Roman wouldn't rat her out re last week's firing. I love her.
But from a business standpoint, given that this was Logan's company, I'd have thought it was a no-brainer to have one or two of the children as interim CEOs, notwithstanding the family history, and with the Board publicly acknowledging the need for short-term stability and continuity.
Marcia was awesome, and the scene with Kerry was great. I thought Willa walking through the apartment saying how she was intending to re-decorate was a bit 'off'. I think her character would have had more class.
I'd completely forgotten Stephen Root had been in the previous season, and so, having just watched the first two episodes of Barry immediately before this, I was completely thrown for a loop when he turned up.
All in all, this was a good episode. I felt the claustrophobia of everyone having to be confined in that one place, but at the same time needing to find private space to scheme or negotiate without others finding out.
Greg intrigues me this season. I'm hoping for a Greg story arc that will be both hilarious and horrifying.
posted by essexjan at 12:56 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Gerri absolutely killed it this week. I knew Roman wouldn't rat her out re last week's firing. I love her.
But from a business standpoint, given that this was Logan's company, I'd have thought it was a no-brainer to have one or two of the children as interim CEOs, notwithstanding the family history, and with the Board publicly acknowledging the need for short-term stability and continuity.
Marcia was awesome, and the scene with Kerry was great. I thought Willa walking through the apartment saying how she was intending to re-decorate was a bit 'off'. I think her character would have had more class.
I'd completely forgotten Stephen Root had been in the previous season, and so, having just watched the first two episodes of Barry immediately before this, I was completely thrown for a loop when he turned up.
All in all, this was a good episode. I felt the claustrophobia of everyone having to be confined in that one place, but at the same time needing to find private space to scheme or negotiate without others finding out.
Greg intrigues me this season. I'm hoping for a Greg story arc that will be both hilarious and horrifying.
posted by essexjan at 12:56 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I agree that Willa's redecorating comments seemed off but Willa's mother appeared to be there as well. From what we saw of Willa's mother I wouldn't put it past her to talk about redecorating.
posted by mmascolino at 1:08 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mmascolino at 1:08 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
The brutality of "we're calling Kerry a taxi to the subway so that she can go home to her little apartment"; the Roys have cars and drivers on staff but it's being made very clear that Kerry no longer has any access to that. She's lucky they didn't simply dump her on the side of the road.
The casualness with which Karl, Frank and Geri consider destroying the document; that there's only slight hesitation in bringing up the idea, and only faint dismissal of it -- it's Geri's argument that it's not germane that wins the day, not any ethical concerns; they've for sure done shady shit like this before.
This was very much a "they're all terrible people" episode.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:32 PM on April 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
The casualness with which Karl, Frank and Geri consider destroying the document; that there's only slight hesitation in bringing up the idea, and only faint dismissal of it -- it's Geri's argument that it's not germane that wins the day, not any ethical concerns; they've for sure done shady shit like this before.
This was very much a "they're all terrible people" episode.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 1:32 PM on April 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
I don't think Logan and Marcia talked twice a day, though I find that more plausible than the notion that Logan was going to marry Kerry. But Marcia is holding court at her $60-70 million townhouse, and even if she hasn't talked to Logan since Italy, I think she's making it clear that she doesn't intend to let anyone treat her as anything less than the honored widow. (Remember how badly Shiv treated her in S1 lmao.)
Re: Roman being uncomfortable with Kerry's ejection from the wake, I thought it was an interesting contrast to his first appearance on the show (dangling the possibility of sudden, extreme wealth in front of a small child and taunting him when he lost). I don't think Roman has grown as a person since then; I think his hang-ups about his own upbringing prevent him for feeling empathy for children, but he can feel bad for Kerry as someone who got fucked by Logan and didn't even really get anything out of it.
I heard "little princess" and thought they meant Shiv. But the reveal that it was Kendall was very funny, and on par with how characters in Succession talk about each other. I don't think they altered the paper -- I think it was more of a reveal of how the underlings are so terrified of stepping out of line that even when they all float the idea of "losing" the paper and all agree to it, none of them are comfortable actually doing it. Logan must've once been surrounded by people who could execute as well as they could suck up to him; I wonder if they all got fired.
It's not really an excuse for how vicious she was about it, but if Shiv had fertility problems, I can understand why she would've been so mean about Tom's "let's get pregnant" idea. She could've started fertility treatments back when she thought Tom was going to prison, and not gotten the result until now...? I don't actually know how fertility treatments work.
Happy to get the humor back this week. I laughed a lot at the pedo-coded obituary roast ("he wouldn't even hug his grandkids").
posted by grandiloquiet at 1:38 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Re: Roman being uncomfortable with Kerry's ejection from the wake, I thought it was an interesting contrast to his first appearance on the show (dangling the possibility of sudden, extreme wealth in front of a small child and taunting him when he lost). I don't think Roman has grown as a person since then; I think his hang-ups about his own upbringing prevent him for feeling empathy for children, but he can feel bad for Kerry as someone who got fucked by Logan and didn't even really get anything out of it.
I heard "little princess" and thought they meant Shiv. But the reveal that it was Kendall was very funny, and on par with how characters in Succession talk about each other. I don't think they altered the paper -- I think it was more of a reveal of how the underlings are so terrified of stepping out of line that even when they all float the idea of "losing" the paper and all agree to it, none of them are comfortable actually doing it. Logan must've once been surrounded by people who could execute as well as they could suck up to him; I wonder if they all got fired.
It's not really an excuse for how vicious she was about it, but if Shiv had fertility problems, I can understand why she would've been so mean about Tom's "let's get pregnant" idea. She could've started fertility treatments back when she thought Tom was going to prison, and not gotten the result until now...? I don't actually know how fertility treatments work.
Happy to get the humor back this week. I laughed a lot at the pedo-coded obituary roast ("he wouldn't even hug his grandkids").
posted by grandiloquiet at 1:38 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
That was a good one. I knew that Kerry would get the shaft, but only a cab to the subway to get home, not even a cab home? That's just COLD.
Tom was so squirrelly this time around it really got under my skin. He was completely ready to throw all the siblings under the bus, and then when they were his only hope, it was as if it never happened. Everyone sees through him, but no one in the family seems to see just how low he's willing to go (except maybe Greg). Meanwhile this was the first time Greg seemed off. He's always been a bit too eager to push himself in, but thinking he would be CEO? Acting like as much of a clown as Tom does? It didn't make any sense for him as a character to me. He was never that bright, but he did seem to be the one person in the family who understood how normal people behaved.
I'm still having a hard time with the idea that the townhouse is Marcia's to sell. At least let them read the will to confirm it. But I'm sure that it's set in stone, based on the agreement with the kids' mom and her own house. $63 million is overpriced in today's market, though. Even without the broker fees, Connor isn't getting the deal he thought he did.
posted by Mchelly at 1:51 PM on April 17, 2023
Tom was so squirrelly this time around it really got under my skin. He was completely ready to throw all the siblings under the bus, and then when they were his only hope, it was as if it never happened. Everyone sees through him, but no one in the family seems to see just how low he's willing to go (except maybe Greg). Meanwhile this was the first time Greg seemed off. He's always been a bit too eager to push himself in, but thinking he would be CEO? Acting like as much of a clown as Tom does? It didn't make any sense for him as a character to me. He was never that bright, but he did seem to be the one person in the family who understood how normal people behaved.
I'm still having a hard time with the idea that the townhouse is Marcia's to sell. At least let them read the will to confirm it. But I'm sure that it's set in stone, based on the agreement with the kids' mom and her own house. $63 million is overpriced in today's market, though. Even without the broker fees, Connor isn't getting the deal he thought he did.
posted by Mchelly at 1:51 PM on April 17, 2023
I'm still having a hard time with the idea that the townhouse is Marcia's to sell.
That struck me, too. We actually don't know her legal situation. Maybe that's why she's here and why she's playing up/lying about how close she was with Logan: she's also not sure where she stands, or maybe she knows her position is weaker than it appears. We really know nothing about her background, but she seems to have been a relative nobody when she married Logan, so I wonder what kind of agreements they signed at the time of the marriage.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:55 PM on April 17, 2023
That struck me, too. We actually don't know her legal situation. Maybe that's why she's here and why she's playing up/lying about how close she was with Logan: she's also not sure where she stands, or maybe she knows her position is weaker than it appears. We really know nothing about her background, but she seems to have been a relative nobody when she married Logan, so I wonder what kind of agreements they signed at the time of the marriage.
posted by star gentle uterus at 1:55 PM on April 17, 2023
Firecrotch
Gross could we just not.
It’s interesting reading through the comments and seeing how much knowledge the show assumes/demands of its viewers. If you have no idea how, say, corporate boards or fertility saving technologies work, it must be pretty confusing.
posted by jeoc at 1:56 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Gross could we just not.
It’s interesting reading through the comments and seeing how much knowledge the show assumes/demands of its viewers. If you have no idea how, say, corporate boards or fertility saving technologies work, it must be pretty confusing.
posted by jeoc at 1:56 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
if Shiv had fertility problems...
I don't think there was anything here to suggest that, the results she was getting was for an amniocentesis test, suggesting a previous screening at perhaps 12 weeks raised concerns that her baby may have a genetic condition.
posted by chill at 3:02 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't think there was anything here to suggest that, the results she was getting was for an amniocentesis test, suggesting a previous screening at perhaps 12 weeks raised concerns that her baby may have a genetic condition.
posted by chill at 3:02 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Does anyone remember the status of the stuff that Logan wanted the kids to sign about Marcia in the first few episodes? My impression was that if that was done she would have more control (after his death? If he was incapacitated?) but I can't recall how it ended.
posted by shothotbot at 3:10 PM on April 17, 2023
posted by shothotbot at 3:10 PM on April 17, 2023
Last season Tom/Shiv talked about freezing eggs, but for the far distant future - and at the time, she didn't sound fully committed to them being for use with Tom. Remember that conversation in Italy about what would happen if one of them died?
Tom very much doesn't know she's pregnant. What is Shiv up to here?
posted by Klipspringer at 3:11 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tom very much doesn't know she's pregnant. What is Shiv up to here?
posted by Klipspringer at 3:11 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
We know from the second episode of season 3 that Marcia renegotiated the prenup to be even more favorable to her and that was after the show started with Logan asking the kids to agree to let his board seat go to Marcus when he died. Those things lead me to believe she’s in a good position.
If Shiv had amnio, that means the doctor saw something off about the pregnancy that they (the doctor and Shiv) wanted to check out. I don’t know that they had fertility problems though. It seemed like her cycle was reliable enough for Tom to track. I thought the conversation about freezing her eggs was to buy time.
posted by kat518 at 3:16 PM on April 17, 2023
If Shiv had amnio, that means the doctor saw something off about the pregnancy that they (the doctor and Shiv) wanted to check out. I don’t know that they had fertility problems though. It seemed like her cycle was reliable enough for Tom to track. I thought the conversation about freezing her eggs was to buy time.
posted by kat518 at 3:16 PM on April 17, 2023
When I was a pregnant person, it was accepted practice to get an amnio just to make sure everything was okay in general because I was over 35. It's possible the writers just used an amnio because it was the most common non-worrisome thing a doctor would phone a patient results over, as their way to tell us she's pregnant (and that far along).
posted by Mchelly at 3:21 PM on April 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by Mchelly at 3:21 PM on April 17, 2023 [11 favorites]
When I was a pregnant person, it was accepted practice to get an amnio just to make sure everything was okay in general because I was over 35.
Interesting! I had a CVS which was less invasive than amnio because something wonky came back with my bloodwork. It sounded like Shiv’s doctor was concerned about something but it’s an interesting idea that they could be using it as a plot device.
posted by kat518 at 3:45 PM on April 17, 2023
Interesting! I had a CVS which was less invasive than amnio because something wonky came back with my bloodwork. It sounded like Shiv’s doctor was concerned about something but it’s an interesting idea that they could be using it as a plot device.
posted by kat518 at 3:45 PM on April 17, 2023
Each episode of this season has been better than the one before. If there were ever any doubts that this show's ensemble cast could carry on without Brian Cox, this episode should have put them to rest.
I love the episode opening with Shiv's pregnancy. A whole other layer of "succession"!! I didn't find Logan's death last week the tiniest bit surprising (thought it had been massively telegraphed in fact), but that was a shocker for me. Even though I knew Sarah Snook was pregnant!
Lots of great comments here! To reply to a couple...
star gentle uterus:
I didn't read that as actual empathy or concern, as apparently others here did. It seemed like [Rome] was just trying to manage and minimize the situation so she would shut up and leave.
Hmmm I think it was empathy. He shot Marcia a "wtf?" look while he was helping Kerry pick up her stuff, and asked Marcia "Was that really necessary?" after Kerry had been ushered out. I actually thought it was one of several really sweet, human interactions in this episode (have to try to think of the others) that stood in contrast to the wheeling/dealing shit and, in fact, in contrast to how a lot of these characters normally interact with each other like ever.
Ragged Richard:
Certainly I think that Kendall's actions at the end of the episode suggest that, upon looking at it again, he's decided it's a cross-out.
Beautifully ambiguous! But I took it to mean the opposite. I think Kendall was deeply moved to discover that his father had ever thought he could/should be the top guy (doesn't actually even matter whether it had been underlined or crossed out). It was, after all, a from-beyond-the-grave answer to the question he asked Logan just after agreeing to be the fall guy in the season 3 finale. And Logan hemmed and hawed back then but more or less said no-- because Kendall wasn't a killer.
I think when Kendall looked at that picture of the document and saw his name there again, he was thinking about all of that, and he decided absolutely to pick up Logan's mantle. He told Hugo not only that "the bad dad stuff" is what Logan would do, but that Logan would have wanted it. For the firm. (lol).
Also how funny that he threatened with Hugo re the insider trading by mentioning the strap-on (based on the phone call he'd overheard early on).
NO ONE knows Shiv is pregnant except for Shiv!! I'm curious how anyone could come away from that episode thinking otherwise. Really curious why some folks seem to think Marcia might have known or suspected? Why would Marcia know? Also re: the pregnancy, I don't think the amnio was meant to suggest any issues with the pregnancy. Amnio is suggested many times when scans show potential problems; but lots of people get it just to rule out anomalies that earlier testing can't catch. Shiv (being a bit of a control freak) would almost definitely have done that.
Man. When Logan was harassing his c-suite to "roast" him a couple episodes back, too bad none of his kids had been there. They could flame him on any topic without stopping to think. So so funny.
posted by torticat at 4:21 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
I love the episode opening with Shiv's pregnancy. A whole other layer of "succession"!! I didn't find Logan's death last week the tiniest bit surprising (thought it had been massively telegraphed in fact), but that was a shocker for me. Even though I knew Sarah Snook was pregnant!
Lots of great comments here! To reply to a couple...
star gentle uterus:
I didn't read that as actual empathy or concern, as apparently others here did. It seemed like [Rome] was just trying to manage and minimize the situation so she would shut up and leave.
Hmmm I think it was empathy. He shot Marcia a "wtf?" look while he was helping Kerry pick up her stuff, and asked Marcia "Was that really necessary?" after Kerry had been ushered out. I actually thought it was one of several really sweet, human interactions in this episode (have to try to think of the others) that stood in contrast to the wheeling/dealing shit and, in fact, in contrast to how a lot of these characters normally interact with each other like ever.
Ragged Richard:
Certainly I think that Kendall's actions at the end of the episode suggest that, upon looking at it again, he's decided it's a cross-out.
Beautifully ambiguous! But I took it to mean the opposite. I think Kendall was deeply moved to discover that his father had ever thought he could/should be the top guy (doesn't actually even matter whether it had been underlined or crossed out). It was, after all, a from-beyond-the-grave answer to the question he asked Logan just after agreeing to be the fall guy in the season 3 finale. And Logan hemmed and hawed back then but more or less said no-- because Kendall wasn't a killer.
I think when Kendall looked at that picture of the document and saw his name there again, he was thinking about all of that, and he decided absolutely to pick up Logan's mantle. He told Hugo not only that "the bad dad stuff" is what Logan would do, but that Logan would have wanted it. For the firm. (lol).
Also how funny that he threatened with Hugo re the insider trading by mentioning the strap-on (based on the phone call he'd overheard early on).
NO ONE knows Shiv is pregnant except for Shiv!! I'm curious how anyone could come away from that episode thinking otherwise. Really curious why some folks seem to think Marcia might have known or suspected? Why would Marcia know? Also re: the pregnancy, I don't think the amnio was meant to suggest any issues with the pregnancy. Amnio is suggested many times when scans show potential problems; but lots of people get it just to rule out anomalies that earlier testing can't catch. Shiv (being a bit of a control freak) would almost definitely have done that.
Man. When Logan was harassing his c-suite to "roast" him a couple episodes back, too bad none of his kids had been there. They could flame him on any topic without stopping to think. So so funny.
posted by torticat at 4:21 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Really curious why some folks seem to think Marcia might have known or suspected? Why would Marcia know?
When I was about five weeks pregnant, I wore a shirt tucked in to a pencil skirt to work. An older colleague looked at my waist, then gave me A Look. There are some people from whom you can’t hide anything. Marcia seems like that kind of person.
IIRC, amnio involves having a large needle inserted into the uterus through the abdomen. It’s invasive, painful and has a non-zero chance of causing miscarriage. I wouldn’t do that unless there was a good reason, and I love ruling out bad stuff. CVS testing is less invasive and can be done earlier in pregnancy but fewer people know what it is so it’s not as good of a plot device.
posted by kat518 at 5:17 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
When I was about five weeks pregnant, I wore a shirt tucked in to a pencil skirt to work. An older colleague looked at my waist, then gave me A Look. There are some people from whom you can’t hide anything. Marcia seems like that kind of person.
IIRC, amnio involves having a large needle inserted into the uterus through the abdomen. It’s invasive, painful and has a non-zero chance of causing miscarriage. I wouldn’t do that unless there was a good reason, and I love ruling out bad stuff. CVS testing is less invasive and can be done earlier in pregnancy but fewer people know what it is so it’s not as good of a plot device.
posted by kat518 at 5:17 PM on April 17, 2023 [1 favorite]
Tom disgusts me. He's like a parasite on a parasite.
Just simpering and obsequious, the most transparent of toadies.
"If there's a ring, my hat's in, respectfully."
Ugh, just the way he said that. Shudder. The writing and acting on this show can make you hate these characters as if they're real people, it's amazing.
Even Karl can see it!
I almost feel sorry for Siobhan, having a disdain child with such a soulless social climber, but she knew exactly what he was.
posted by yonega at 5:21 PM on April 17, 2023
Just simpering and obsequious, the most transparent of toadies.
"If there's a ring, my hat's in, respectfully."
Ugh, just the way he said that. Shudder. The writing and acting on this show can make you hate these characters as if they're real people, it's amazing.
Even Karl can see it!
I almost feel sorry for Siobhan, having a disdain child with such a soulless social climber, but she knew exactly what he was.
posted by yonega at 5:21 PM on April 17, 2023
> why was Roman so concerned about Kerry? He has never liked her. Maybe he was freaked out to see her crying but he asked for her number twice which was unusual.
Roman has a deep humiliation kink. He can be extremely cruel, but he's also one of the more likely characters to respond to an act as egregious as Marcia's with sympathy.
Poor Kerry, hurriedly shuffled offstage like a Byzantine empress after a coup.
Regarding the "little princess / princes" debate: I definitely heard the latter. And apparently in this episode Roman is wearing an IWC "Le Petite Prince" watch, which may or may not have any meaning.
While there are many possible twists ahead, my impression right now is that Kendall has started to extinguish his last flickers of humanity, becoming the "killer" his father always wanted. Whether he wins or loses at the end, there's no coming back from that process.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 5:46 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Roman has a deep humiliation kink. He can be extremely cruel, but he's also one of the more likely characters to respond to an act as egregious as Marcia's with sympathy.
Poor Kerry, hurriedly shuffled offstage like a Byzantine empress after a coup.
Regarding the "little princess / princes" debate: I definitely heard the latter. And apparently in this episode Roman is wearing an IWC "Le Petite Prince" watch, which may or may not have any meaning.
While there are many possible twists ahead, my impression right now is that Kendall has started to extinguish his last flickers of humanity, becoming the "killer" his father always wanted. Whether he wins or loses at the end, there's no coming back from that process.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 5:46 PM on April 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
When I was about five weeks pregnant, I wore a shirt tucked in to a pencil skirt to work. An older colleague looked at my waist, then gave me A Look.
Huh! May I suggest that that colleague was just A Dick, and not someone who "just knows" when a person is pregnant, especially at a point so early that many pregnant women may be just noticing they missed a period. ;)
With my first pregnancy I didn't start showing until WELL past 20 weeks. For what is "typical," webmd says, "your bump becomes noticeable during your second trimester. Between 16-20 weeks, your body will start showing your baby's growth. For some women, their bump may not be noticeable until the end of the second trimester and even into the third trimester."
OH but I take back what I said earlier about Shiv's just being a regular amnio. On rewatch--the doctor mentioned "the journey we've been through with this amnio given what the earlier blood tests showed." So yeah... there had been cause for concern.
It's interesting, now that I think about it... that given all of that, it seems Shiv definitely wants this baby. Which is odd! The timing isn't exactly convenient. And it was JUST, what, a few months ago, at her mom's wedding, when she was trying to talk Tom into freezing embryos.
Okay, so wow. So she must have gotten pregnant when they had sex the night before the frozen embryos talk. And THEN a day or two later Tom betrayed her with Logan. So that means we skipped about 16-18 weeks roughly between seasons (which tracks). And that also puts her conversation with Tom at the end of ep 1 in a whole new light. But... she was talking about divorce, then; but also had decided up to that point, at least, not to end the pregnancy? Jesus!! Shiv's up to something, but I have no idea what.
posted by torticat at 6:03 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Huh! May I suggest that that colleague was just A Dick, and not someone who "just knows" when a person is pregnant, especially at a point so early that many pregnant women may be just noticing they missed a period. ;)
With my first pregnancy I didn't start showing until WELL past 20 weeks. For what is "typical," webmd says, "your bump becomes noticeable during your second trimester. Between 16-20 weeks, your body will start showing your baby's growth. For some women, their bump may not be noticeable until the end of the second trimester and even into the third trimester."
OH but I take back what I said earlier about Shiv's just being a regular amnio. On rewatch--the doctor mentioned "the journey we've been through with this amnio given what the earlier blood tests showed." So yeah... there had been cause for concern.
It's interesting, now that I think about it... that given all of that, it seems Shiv definitely wants this baby. Which is odd! The timing isn't exactly convenient. And it was JUST, what, a few months ago, at her mom's wedding, when she was trying to talk Tom into freezing embryos.
Okay, so wow. So she must have gotten pregnant when they had sex the night before the frozen embryos talk. And THEN a day or two later Tom betrayed her with Logan. So that means we skipped about 16-18 weeks roughly between seasons (which tracks). And that also puts her conversation with Tom at the end of ep 1 in a whole new light. But... she was talking about divorce, then; but also had decided up to that point, at least, not to end the pregnancy? Jesus!! Shiv's up to something, but I have no idea what.
posted by torticat at 6:03 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
The casualness with which Karl, Frank and Geri consider destroying the document
I don't think Gerri considered it. She got Frank & Karl to put their cards on the table before she said anything, and then moments later cut dead the idea of disappearing the document. "Yes. Well that is a very funny joke." That wasn't a wink-wink; it was a "Fuck off, from your general counsel and acting CEO."
I think Gerri was displaying her superior skills (it's not legally germane) and also showing some steel, in case either of them did consider getting up to some shit. All of this in the context of who might survive to the next round of musical chairs.
posted by torticat at 6:43 PM on April 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
I don't think Gerri considered it. She got Frank & Karl to put their cards on the table before she said anything, and then moments later cut dead the idea of disappearing the document. "Yes. Well that is a very funny joke." That wasn't a wink-wink; it was a "Fuck off, from your general counsel and acting CEO."
I think Gerri was displaying her superior skills (it's not legally germane) and also showing some steel, in case either of them did consider getting up to some shit. All of this in the context of who might survive to the next round of musical chairs.
posted by torticat at 6:43 PM on April 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
The ambiguity with the "crossed out or underlined" thing just tracks so hard with my experience of a parent dying. All you've got left are all these things of theirs and you're desperately trying to make sense of them and you can never, ever find out because they're gone. It's those kind of details that have had this and the last episode hitting me really hard. Just amazing writing.
posted by augustimagination at 8:53 PM on April 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by augustimagination at 8:53 PM on April 17, 2023 [7 favorites]
I’m not convinced Shiv wants to be pregnant or wants to have a baby. She seems checked out and ambivalent. I think she’s thinking she wants to have a kid someday so why not now. It could help her twist the knife with Tom.
posted by kat518 at 8:58 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kat518 at 8:58 PM on April 17, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wow this episode was A Lot. I wonder if this one will be the actual climax of the show? Obviously the last episode with Logan dying was incredibly powerful and pivotal. But this show is succession, not Logan Roy This Is Your Life. The pilot started with the kids doing a legal wrangling dress rehearsal of their dad's death. This is the real deal now.
Anyway an enormous amount going on, so much I couldn't possibly keep track of it all. I think I'd need to watch it 3-4 times to follow every detail.
My favorite scene was the brief one early on with Karl, Frank, and Gerri first putting their cards on the table about who they wanted to be the interim CEO. The three actors' rapport really sparkled there, with David Rasche getting to do more as Karl than he usually has room to do. Excellent and fun performances.
It feels a bit strange to me so many people are scrambling to be interim CEO. The acquisition deal is nearly done, it's only going to matter for a few weeks isn't it? I guess the way the deal itself is in the wind raised the stakes. And hoo boy Matsson being too busy / pissy to get on the phone after his call went unanswered. The sinking feeling in the stomach, really ruthless negotiation.
posted by Nelson at 9:14 PM on April 17, 2023
Anyway an enormous amount going on, so much I couldn't possibly keep track of it all. I think I'd need to watch it 3-4 times to follow every detail.
My favorite scene was the brief one early on with Karl, Frank, and Gerri first putting their cards on the table about who they wanted to be the interim CEO. The three actors' rapport really sparkled there, with David Rasche getting to do more as Karl than he usually has room to do. Excellent and fun performances.
It feels a bit strange to me so many people are scrambling to be interim CEO. The acquisition deal is nearly done, it's only going to matter for a few weeks isn't it? I guess the way the deal itself is in the wind raised the stakes. And hoo boy Matsson being too busy / pissy to get on the phone after his call went unanswered. The sinking feeling in the stomach, really ruthless negotiation.
posted by Nelson at 9:14 PM on April 17, 2023
I just wanted to point out these great ATN headlines that went by in the opening credits:
CHINA HACK COULD SEE 40M AMERICANS ENTOMBED IN THEIR ELECTRIC CARS
MAN WITH BIRD FLU CAN'T STOP THINKING OF DUCKS
So good!
posted by mmoncur at 11:56 PM on April 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
CHINA HACK COULD SEE 40M AMERICANS ENTOMBED IN THEIR ELECTRIC CARS
MAN WITH BIRD FLU CAN'T STOP THINKING OF DUCKS
So good!
posted by mmoncur at 11:56 PM on April 17, 2023 [8 favorites]
it seems Shiv definitely wants this baby
My read of the scene was that she was disappointed by the results because she no longer had a guilt free reason to terminate the pregnancy. On top of everything else she now has to make a quick decision about ending a pregnancy, a monumental life choice.
I think it’s interesting to note that given the season is widely touted as 1 episode = 1 day, it will end within the timeframe at which Shiv can have a legal termination. If I had to put money down I’d say she will do it, tell Tom, and the shit will meet the fan.
posted by chill at 1:19 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
My read of the scene was that she was disappointed by the results because she no longer had a guilt free reason to terminate the pregnancy. On top of everything else she now has to make a quick decision about ending a pregnancy, a monumental life choice.
I think it’s interesting to note that given the season is widely touted as 1 episode = 1 day, it will end within the timeframe at which Shiv can have a legal termination. If I had to put money down I’d say she will do it, tell Tom, and the shit will meet the fan.
posted by chill at 1:19 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Love how the writers manage to include perfectly believable and non-distracting fuck yous to Logan / Murdoch:
- died fishing his phone out of a toilet
- that was full of shit
- competitor at wake with shit eating grin
- newest daughter in law stomping around redesigning
- estranged son immediately trashing his reputation
With lesser writers, these would feel petty ('oh you lefties settling scores'), here they ALL fit the story... and are fuck you wish fulfillment 🥰
posted by litleozy at 1:26 AM on April 18, 2023
- died fishing his phone out of a toilet
- that was full of shit
- competitor at wake with shit eating grin
- newest daughter in law stomping around redesigning
- estranged son immediately trashing his reputation
With lesser writers, these would feel petty ('oh you lefties settling scores'), here they ALL fit the story... and are fuck you wish fulfillment 🥰
posted by litleozy at 1:26 AM on April 18, 2023
Kendall: And, like, where's, you know, where's Kerry?
Roman: Oh, in Marcia's trunk, inside an anaconda, inside a sarcophagus.
a-also: "Strap-On Juliet" is my new favorite band name.
posted by chavenet at 4:08 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Roman: Oh, in Marcia's trunk, inside an anaconda, inside a sarcophagus.
a-also: "Strap-On Juliet" is my new favorite band name.
posted by chavenet at 4:08 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Was that the first time we've seen one of the "grown ups" tell Tom to his face, in front of other people, exactly what they all thought of him? It's felt a bit like we could all see what a self-serving, clumsy guy he is, but we haven't known how the rest of the board etc have seen him. How much did or didn't they see through him? Now we know they know.
Actually, I often think one of the crucial things about Succession is how rarely anyone says what they think. There are so many scenes with people talking around things, trying to work out what the others think, not wanting to give away anything unnecessarily. Even when it was Logan seemingly being rudely truthful, you were never quite sure if he meant it, or was scheming. So it's bracing when someone comes straight out and says an entirely truthful opinion to a person's face, especially in company.
posted by fabius at 5:58 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Actually, I often think one of the crucial things about Succession is how rarely anyone says what they think. There are so many scenes with people talking around things, trying to work out what the others think, not wanting to give away anything unnecessarily. Even when it was Logan seemingly being rudely truthful, you were never quite sure if he meant it, or was scheming. So it's bracing when someone comes straight out and says an entirely truthful opinion to a person's face, especially in company.
posted by fabius at 5:58 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
chill, interesting comment!! But do you really think Shiv would have had a moment's guilt terminating? She would probably have found out only a couple weeks after Tom's betrayal. She was pissed at her husband and father. She was cooking up a major power play with Rome & Kendall at the time (well... The 100, haha), and pregnancy and motherhood would have thrown such a wrench in that.
Maybe she was keeping the pregnancy as card to play because she thought a grandchild might win back her dad's affection at the end of the day? And the reason she was so ambivalent about the call from the doctor was that she no longer had that motivation, at all, to have a baby? She sure seemed extra pissed with her brothers at the idea that she might be too teary-eyed and prone to faint to be a CEO. She mentioned Logan rocking a grandbaby to Tom and said to someone else that she felt like she was the only one around who had actually lost something she wanted to have around.
posted by torticat at 6:38 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe she was keeping the pregnancy as card to play because she thought a grandchild might win back her dad's affection at the end of the day? And the reason she was so ambivalent about the call from the doctor was that she no longer had that motivation, at all, to have a baby? She sure seemed extra pissed with her brothers at the idea that she might be too teary-eyed and prone to faint to be a CEO. She mentioned Logan rocking a grandbaby to Tom and said to someone else that she felt like she was the only one around who had actually lost something she wanted to have around.
posted by torticat at 6:38 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Maybe she was keeping it as card to play (sry for mixed metaphors) because she thought a grandchild might win back her dad's affection at the end of the day? And the reason she was so ambivalent about the call from the doctor was that she no longer had that motivation, at all, to have a baby?
extended-yuuup.gif
posted by Etrigan at 6:42 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
extended-yuuup.gif
posted by Etrigan at 6:42 AM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
I didn't get Hugo's initial conversation with Kendal. 1) what can Kendal do? 2) his story didn't make sense, he doesn't talk to his daughter but he also cant recall if he called her yesterday? That's clearly BS
posted by shothotbot at 7:04 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by shothotbot at 7:04 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m not convinced Shiv got pregnant and is weighing whether to stay pregnant for strategic reasons. Her husband betrayed her and her dad just died so this isn’t a great time, plus her parents are crap so it’s not surprising if she’s just sour on the idea. It would be understandable for a normal person dealing with one of those things to feel conflicted about being pregnant. I enjoy watching the show close-read style but I don’t think there needs to be more to it than that.
Re: Hugo, I can see Gerri raising the issue with Kendall and Kendall quashing it somehow (it was a mistake, Hugo knows it and came clean once he found out, if there’s a fine, it’ll get paid but there’s no attempt to cover it up or anything). I think that’s what Hugo was asking Ken to do. But yeah, his story doesn’t make sense. Part of me wondered if that was actually his daughter - that’s not how I would speak with someone with whom I rarely converse. But who knows.
posted by kat518 at 7:18 AM on April 18, 2023
Re: Hugo, I can see Gerri raising the issue with Kendall and Kendall quashing it somehow (it was a mistake, Hugo knows it and came clean once he found out, if there’s a fine, it’ll get paid but there’s no attempt to cover it up or anything). I think that’s what Hugo was asking Ken to do. But yeah, his story doesn’t make sense. Part of me wondered if that was actually his daughter - that’s not how I would speak with someone with whom I rarely converse. But who knows.
posted by kat518 at 7:18 AM on April 18, 2023
What if Shiv is pregnant just because she wants to have a baby, the ordinary human impulse? And she had to work a little bit at it, or at least is watching the health of her pregnancy very closely. Her ambiguity at the doctor's news could be as simple as the fact she's on the outs with her husband combined with the death of her father. It's a complicated time to have a baby and she's just been reminded of that.
This show is all about ordinary human impulses being bent to strategy or cruelty or power. But Shiv's often been a little on the outside of those machinations, softer, more human. Sometimes she has genuine feelings unlike the other kids (other than Kendall's self-pity). I feel it's doubly important that she's the one main woman character in a world of mostly men playing power politics. Being pregnant suddenly highlights her femininity and makes her vulnerable to a bunch of sexist attitudes (whether cruel or well meaning).
The story of her pregnancy could go in an interesting direction. But I don't think it will go there fully in the way I'm imagining, that would be too redemptive of Shiv as a person. I don't think this show is going to end with any of the characters suddenly looking like decent sympathetic people. They will all mostly be awful with just enough relatability to keep the show poignant.
posted by Nelson at 7:34 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
This show is all about ordinary human impulses being bent to strategy or cruelty or power. But Shiv's often been a little on the outside of those machinations, softer, more human. Sometimes she has genuine feelings unlike the other kids (other than Kendall's self-pity). I feel it's doubly important that she's the one main woman character in a world of mostly men playing power politics. Being pregnant suddenly highlights her femininity and makes her vulnerable to a bunch of sexist attitudes (whether cruel or well meaning).
The story of her pregnancy could go in an interesting direction. But I don't think it will go there fully in the way I'm imagining, that would be too redemptive of Shiv as a person. I don't think this show is going to end with any of the characters suddenly looking like decent sympathetic people. They will all mostly be awful with just enough relatability to keep the show poignant.
posted by Nelson at 7:34 AM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I didn't get Hugo's initial conversation with Kendal. 1) what can Kendal do? 2) his story didn't make sense, he doesn't talk to his daughter but he also cant recall if he called her yesterday? That's clearly BS
My take was that she 100% overheard something or was told something and dumped her stock, so now he knows he could be on the hook for insider trading. Which, given how slimy he seems, he may even have done on purpose, maybe even keeping shares in her name as a front. To me the 'We're estranged / I never talk to her / can't remember when the last time I called her' is the same as Marcia's "we talk every day" - establishing an alternate truth trail for when anyone inevitably comes asking questions later.
posted by Mchelly at 7:37 AM on April 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
My take was that she 100% overheard something or was told something and dumped her stock, so now he knows he could be on the hook for insider trading. Which, given how slimy he seems, he may even have done on purpose, maybe even keeping shares in her name as a front. To me the 'We're estranged / I never talk to her / can't remember when the last time I called her' is the same as Marcia's "we talk every day" - establishing an alternate truth trail for when anyone inevitably comes asking questions later.
posted by Mchelly at 7:37 AM on April 18, 2023 [11 favorites]
I didn't get Hugo's initial conversation with Kendal. 1) what can Kendal do? 2) his story didn't make sense, he doesn't talk to his daughter but he also cant recall if he called her yesterday? That's clearly BS
I guessed that it was because Hugo watched Ken walk in and right by him as he was freaking out on the phone, so he felt like he needed to let Ken in on what that was so that Ken would not make an issue of it.
I am probably crazy, but it would be a heck of a twist if Kerry ended up with something big. Her whole panicked bit yesterday was asking Roman to look into whether Logan had provided for her as he allegedly promised he would. And maybe Marcia knows there is some risk there and wants to get her out of the picture in the hopes that Kerry doesn't complicate things. But I guess it's equally likely that Kerry just found herself without a chair when the music stopped and now she's out.
posted by AgentRocket at 7:37 AM on April 18, 2023
I guessed that it was because Hugo watched Ken walk in and right by him as he was freaking out on the phone, so he felt like he needed to let Ken in on what that was so that Ken would not make an issue of it.
I am probably crazy, but it would be a heck of a twist if Kerry ended up with something big. Her whole panicked bit yesterday was asking Roman to look into whether Logan had provided for her as he allegedly promised he would. And maybe Marcia knows there is some risk there and wants to get her out of the picture in the hopes that Kerry doesn't complicate things. But I guess it's equally likely that Kerry just found herself without a chair when the music stopped and now she's out.
posted by AgentRocket at 7:37 AM on April 18, 2023
I assume Hugo told his daughter to go trade some stocks and then realised later on that because of the merger, the SEC would check all their phones and he'd be caught. I mean, Hugo does not strike me as someone moral.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:37 AM on April 18, 2023
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:37 AM on April 18, 2023
Maybe she wants to have a baby but she looks like she is on line with her bf at duane reede at midnight for a pregnancy test and they both have moist, red eyes and aren't talking to each other
posted by shothotbot at 7:38 AM on April 18, 2023
posted by shothotbot at 7:38 AM on April 18, 2023
But do you really think Shiv would have had a moment's guilt terminating?
Guilt is a complicated word I guess. But ultimately, yes I do. I can also imagine that if you instinctively want a baby, got pregnant, and days later we’re completely betrayed by the father and now despise him, and then he pulled some dirty tricks during the divorce process, having his baby may not seem like something you can go through with. But that conflicts with the still present desire to have a baby so it’s a tough decision.
Tom was really pathetic and gross at the “wake” and will presumably continue to be so, which I think is making the termination decision easier and easier.
That said I am usually wrong about everything with this fucking show!
posted by chill at 8:33 AM on April 18, 2023
Guilt is a complicated word I guess. But ultimately, yes I do. I can also imagine that if you instinctively want a baby, got pregnant, and days later we’re completely betrayed by the father and now despise him, and then he pulled some dirty tricks during the divorce process, having his baby may not seem like something you can go through with. But that conflicts with the still present desire to have a baby so it’s a tough decision.
Tom was really pathetic and gross at the “wake” and will presumably continue to be so, which I think is making the termination decision easier and easier.
That said I am usually wrong about everything with this fucking show!
posted by chill at 8:33 AM on April 18, 2023
Just as the show managed to have a major character die suddenly without any foreshadowing, it's great they have a pregnant character without, earlier, having her be mysteriously sick or Very Obviously Not Drinking, the usual two precursors to a TV pregnancy.
posted by fabius at 8:57 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by fabius at 8:57 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
— I could watch a whole show's worth of Marcia being nasty.
Not as nasty as Willa: “Look at us both.”
yeah. that was master class. Willa has really come into her own spending so much time around these awful people. Marcia felt that one for sure.
great episode!
posted by supermedusa at 10:03 AM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
Not as nasty as Willa: “Look at us both.”
yeah. that was master class. Willa has really come into her own spending so much time around these awful people. Marcia felt that one for sure.
great episode!
posted by supermedusa at 10:03 AM on April 18, 2023 [6 favorites]
https://time.com/6272360/succession-timeline-season-4/
Several cast members have confirmed in interviews that this season on Succession, each episode takes place on a single day. So, essentially, viewers are watching the 10 most chaotic days in the lives of the Roy family members in season 4.posted by fabius at 10:57 AM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
What day did this episode take place on? Is it Saturday?
Is the presidential election happening in a few episodes?
posted by gnuhavenpier at 12:32 PM on April 18, 2023
Is the presidential election happening in a few episodes?
posted by gnuhavenpier at 12:32 PM on April 18, 2023
To all the comments about Shiv maybe having wanted to have a baby... I mean, she made it pretty damn clear to Tom, in the morning-after conversation at mom's wedding, that that was NOT something she was interested in at the time! Why would she have been lying about that (and freezing embryos), and secretly trying to get pregnant at the same time? Tom hadn't betrayed her yet.
I think it's pretty obvious that getting pregnant was very much not in her game plan. The timing (she's now close to 20wks) works perfectly with conception having happened when she & Tom had sex the night before the wedding. I mean of course she could have slept with someone else later, but that's not the story that's been told. She went from absolutely not wanting to get pregnant, to a couple weeks later choosing to keep a pregnancy--with her husband and father having utterly fucked her over in between! It's very interesting.
posted by torticat at 12:50 PM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think it's pretty obvious that getting pregnant was very much not in her game plan. The timing (she's now close to 20wks) works perfectly with conception having happened when she & Tom had sex the night before the wedding. I mean of course she could have slept with someone else later, but that's not the story that's been told. She went from absolutely not wanting to get pregnant, to a couple weeks later choosing to keep a pregnancy--with her husband and father having utterly fucked her over in between! It's very interesting.
posted by torticat at 12:50 PM on April 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
Don't forget that no matter what Shiv's baby is a Roy.
And even though ("he doesn't even hug his grandkids") Logan is dead, baby Shivroy is like a pawn become queen.
posted by chavenet at 1:15 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
And even though ("he doesn't even hug his grandkids") Logan is dead, baby Shivroy is like a pawn become queen.
posted by chavenet at 1:15 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not only does Logan not hug his grandkids, didn't he throw something at the head of his grandson at Thanksgiving! Tough granddad to be around.
posted by armacy at 2:01 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by armacy at 2:01 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Logan hit Iverson with a container of cranberry sauce during a game played after Thanksgiving dinner. A class act all the way.
posted by Ber at 3:26 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Ber at 3:26 PM on April 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
What day did this episode take place on? Is it Saturday?
Is the presidential election happening in a few episodes?
In S4E1 they say the election is in 10 days and that the board meeting is in a few days. The board meeting gets pushed and I think Connor had a Friday wedding and the last episode was Saturday. However: that sure doesn't seem like New York in November.
posted by shothotbot at 7:18 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is the presidential election happening in a few episodes?
In S4E1 they say the election is in 10 days and that the board meeting is in a few days. The board meeting gets pushed and I think Connor had a Friday wedding and the last episode was Saturday. However: that sure doesn't seem like New York in November.
posted by shothotbot at 7:18 PM on April 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is it just me or does Roman's hair cut get more hitlerific each episode?
posted by oldnumberseven at 11:16 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by oldnumberseven at 11:16 PM on April 19, 2023 [1 favorite]
Is it just me or does Roman's hair cut get more hitlerific each episode?
I always took it to be a nod to this trend.
posted by mykescipark at 9:58 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I always took it to be a nod to this trend.
posted by mykescipark at 9:58 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
Psychiatrist Breaks Down Succession's Family Dynamics.
posted by Pendragon at 11:20 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Pendragon at 11:20 AM on April 20, 2023 [1 favorite]
I thought Willa walking through the apartment saying how she was intending to re-decorate was a bit 'off'. I think her character would have had more class.
I like that, absolutely despite everything else, the last three episode titles have been absolutely Connor and Willa centric: their wedding rehearsal, their wedding, and now their honeymoon plans. And notice how all of those things are indeed going on in the background. In this episode, while the other siblings are squabbling over the CEO position Connor and Willow have snagged a house and are already mentally redecorating it. That may be just as un-classy as the others - but it shows the difference between a couple who are laser focused on their own agenda as opposed to the in-fighting of the others. It seems to run in the family too for Willa: we hear how her mother is relentless taking advantage of all the free food.
posted by rongorongo at 3:31 AM on April 22, 2023
I like that, absolutely despite everything else, the last three episode titles have been absolutely Connor and Willa centric: their wedding rehearsal, their wedding, and now their honeymoon plans. And notice how all of those things are indeed going on in the background. In this episode, while the other siblings are squabbling over the CEO position Connor and Willow have snagged a house and are already mentally redecorating it. That may be just as un-classy as the others - but it shows the difference between a couple who are laser focused on their own agenda as opposed to the in-fighting of the others. It seems to run in the family too for Willa: we hear how her mother is relentless taking advantage of all the free food.
posted by rongorongo at 3:31 AM on April 22, 2023
The shedding of the peripherals: Kerry, Cousin Greg, Tom and now Marcia!!! back from limbo.
why did Marcia tell Kendall she and Logan talked every morning and afternoon, then said they talked every night?
I didn't rewatch the entire episode but she said they talked "intimately" [shudder] every morning and evening. It was Kendall who told his siblings that they talked every night.
That stance plus her handling of Kerry and selling the place to Conner on the spot means she is not going to quietly fade into the background. Didn't she negotiate a board position for her son in S3E2 (Sarajevo)?
There are two townhouses in Manhattan listed for sale on Zillow for $60-65,000,000 so maybe Conner didn't overpay after all but I gotta wonder how big is his trust.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:09 PM on May 16, 2023
why did Marcia tell Kendall she and Logan talked every morning and afternoon, then said they talked every night?
I didn't rewatch the entire episode but she said they talked "intimately" [shudder] every morning and evening. It was Kendall who told his siblings that they talked every night.
That stance plus her handling of Kerry and selling the place to Conner on the spot means she is not going to quietly fade into the background. Didn't she negotiate a board position for her son in S3E2 (Sarajevo)?
There are two townhouses in Manhattan listed for sale on Zillow for $60-65,000,000 so maybe Conner didn't overpay after all but I gotta wonder how big is his trust.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:09 PM on May 16, 2023
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— I could watch a whole show's worth of Marcia being nasty.
— SHIV CONFIRMED PREGNANT
— Watching Greg and Tom both suck up to everybody in attendance in slightly different registers was very funny, and left me feeling a little sad for Tom/a little nauseated at Greg.
— God, it was satisfying seeing the top brass finally get to let their hair down a little. More of Karl, Gerri, Frank, and Carolina going at one another, please. (I was just thinking how comparatively neutered David Rasche has been in this show, compared to his chilling "let's start the Iraq War" politician in Armstrong's fantastic movie In The Loop.
— Colin dad, Colin jeans
— Kerry's grief was such a blend of awful and hilarious; Roman showing empathy for her was touching.
— Matsson makes Succession history as the first person whose call was ever allowed to ring out.
— It's a little wild seeing Stephen Root show up in Succession and Barry back-to-back. It's almost too much quality, you know?
— Probably extremely sick of me to be excited that we might see Kendall be more of an amoral shark, but I genuinely hope we get more of that.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 5:36 AM on April 17, 2023 [8 favorites]