Agatha All Along: Maiden Mother Crone
October 30, 2024 7:08 PM - Season 1, Episode 9 - Subscribe
The truth of Agatha Harkness and The Witches’ Road.
So... it was Billy all along. His anguish over his body count is appropriate for the character, but someone might eventually have a word with him on what, say, some of the Avengers might lay claim to WRT their past actions. ("You think you've got red in your ledger, kid? Well...") And I'm still wondering how Agatha ended up as the power-vampire witch. We never did actually see Mephisto, did we? Hmm.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:35 PM on October 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:35 PM on October 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
Nor do we know how she ever got her hands on the Darkhold, I believe?
posted by Navelgazer at 8:41 PM on October 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Navelgazer at 8:41 PM on October 30, 2024 [3 favorites]
Perhaps a sign of my deficient mothering instinct, but the whole flashback I kept thinking, "cool motive. still murder." Also, seeing Agatha tear through colonial witchkind made me think of her as some stratospheric apex predator. How many witches would Marvel US have if Agatha hadn't been diligently weeding through them for 200+ years?!
But kudos to everyone who called the reality-warping creation of the road.... I'm glad Jen survived but still pretty sad about Alice, to be honest. Not sure the Rio thing ever made complete sense? But, uh, let's go with "love gone bad" and "I love Aubrey Plaza," so.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:49 PM on October 30, 2024 [8 favorites]
But kudos to everyone who called the reality-warping creation of the road.... I'm glad Jen survived but still pretty sad about Alice, to be honest. Not sure the Rio thing ever made complete sense? But, uh, let's go with "love gone bad" and "I love Aubrey Plaza," so.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:49 PM on October 30, 2024 [8 favorites]
"cool motive. still murder."
Was Nicky even the motive for Agatha's actions, though? He was born well after Agatha killed the Salem Seven the way we would see her do to countless other covens. Was she stealing other witches' power in order to keep him alive a little longer? (Because if so, I didn't catch that, but it would make some sense with him dying the night after he walked away from their con.) I read the whole flashback thing as showing that killing off witches for their power was just the con Agatha had been running, Nicky was vocal about not liking it, and that after he died she went on an absolute bender of doing it such that she wouldn't be able to "face him" again, but I might have missed something there.
(Still appreciate a good B99 reference, though.)
posted by Navelgazer at 9:28 PM on October 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
Was Nicky even the motive for Agatha's actions, though? He was born well after Agatha killed the Salem Seven the way we would see her do to countless other covens. Was she stealing other witches' power in order to keep him alive a little longer? (Because if so, I didn't catch that, but it would make some sense with him dying the night after he walked away from their con.) I read the whole flashback thing as showing that killing off witches for their power was just the con Agatha had been running, Nicky was vocal about not liking it, and that after he died she went on an absolute bender of doing it such that she wouldn't be able to "face him" again, but I might have missed something there.
(Still appreciate a good B99 reference, though.)
posted by Navelgazer at 9:28 PM on October 30, 2024 [5 favorites]
I think The Witches Road Song 🎼 might be New Folklore?
Or A Tulpa.
What A Time to be Alive !
posted by Faintdreams at 3:43 AM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
Or A Tulpa.
What A Time to be Alive !
posted by Faintdreams at 3:43 AM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
I... Loved this.
posted by Faintdreams at 3:54 AM on October 31, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Faintdreams at 3:54 AM on October 31, 2024 [3 favorites]
I’m with you, Navelgazer.
As a bereaved mother myself, I find WandaVision and Agatha All Along both hit some really powerful notes of grief, and I really liked the creative play on sitcoms and time periods creative and fun. Basically I like the sense of play with the medium, with perspective shifts - Lilia’s relationship to time as a medium made for a great episode. It’s very watchable and I just like people taking risks and having fun.
The questionable morality in this universe is something I expect people to debate. Monica’s letting Wanda off the hook and Agatha’s sociopathic math (and Billy’s choice of mentor) are an interesting counterpoint to some current trends. I mean obviously outside of a comic book universe it’s not ok to only kill three people because you are an astral twin missing his brother, or enslave a town or disrupt time and space searching for your lost or dead family.
But witches historically have kind of been the women’s reality-work - purveyors of abortifacients, midwives of last resort, sellers of love potions, seducing people outside of the Judeo-Christian path to Father, Son and Holy Ghost - so I’m down with it. I think Agatha is a predator who also loved and grieved (and used) her kid. She holds together as a character, thanks especially to Kathryn Hahn.
Billy on the other hand…I think I hope he grows up from here because while it sort of makes sense he trauma-bonds with Agatha as the one person who gets who he really is, I just hope for more for him. Where’s his boyfriend??? I think if that had been a hetero relationship we would have seen him, although really can’t complain about the queerness.
I will say…for someone who as a child was abused along the lines of being seduced to devil’s work, I did find the Agatha-Nicholas and Agatha-Billy relationships rang true enough, especially Nicholas. They really walked the line there. If Hahn hadn’t been able to pull off those moments of tension between narcissistic rage that Nicholas wasn’t playing his part on the murder game and delight at his rebelling because she just likes a rebel - something consistent in her relationships to both Billy and Wanda - the grief would have fallen flat.
That scene gutted me and I’ll have to rewatch it. But I’m impressed. Lots about parent grief gets pulled off badly. This didn’t. In a Marvel thing.
I both find the witchiness of this show satisfying (more lesbian death goddess sex stories are welcome) and incredibly frustrating when contrasted with how Stephen Strange’s grief over his career and his ego are presented. If you take the Dr. Strange movies + WandaVision and Agatha All Along as a set, it’s kind of annoying that women’s power and grief lead to chaos for everyone around them but men’s grief (and ego) lead to enlightenment and hyper rationality. Add in that Tony Stark becomes a father and then chooses to save the world at the cost of himself and…I get kinda annoyed.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:59 AM on October 31, 2024 [15 favorites]
As a bereaved mother myself, I find WandaVision and Agatha All Along both hit some really powerful notes of grief, and I really liked the creative play on sitcoms and time periods creative and fun. Basically I like the sense of play with the medium, with perspective shifts - Lilia’s relationship to time as a medium made for a great episode. It’s very watchable and I just like people taking risks and having fun.
The questionable morality in this universe is something I expect people to debate. Monica’s letting Wanda off the hook and Agatha’s sociopathic math (and Billy’s choice of mentor) are an interesting counterpoint to some current trends. I mean obviously outside of a comic book universe it’s not ok to only kill three people because you are an astral twin missing his brother, or enslave a town or disrupt time and space searching for your lost or dead family.
But witches historically have kind of been the women’s reality-work - purveyors of abortifacients, midwives of last resort, sellers of love potions, seducing people outside of the Judeo-Christian path to Father, Son and Holy Ghost - so I’m down with it. I think Agatha is a predator who also loved and grieved (and used) her kid. She holds together as a character, thanks especially to Kathryn Hahn.
Billy on the other hand…I think I hope he grows up from here because while it sort of makes sense he trauma-bonds with Agatha as the one person who gets who he really is, I just hope for more for him. Where’s his boyfriend??? I think if that had been a hetero relationship we would have seen him, although really can’t complain about the queerness.
I will say…for someone who as a child was abused along the lines of being seduced to devil’s work, I did find the Agatha-Nicholas and Agatha-Billy relationships rang true enough, especially Nicholas. They really walked the line there. If Hahn hadn’t been able to pull off those moments of tension between narcissistic rage that Nicholas wasn’t playing his part on the murder game and delight at his rebelling because she just likes a rebel - something consistent in her relationships to both Billy and Wanda - the grief would have fallen flat.
That scene gutted me and I’ll have to rewatch it. But I’m impressed. Lots about parent grief gets pulled off badly. This didn’t. In a Marvel thing.
I both find the witchiness of this show satisfying (more lesbian death goddess sex stories are welcome) and incredibly frustrating when contrasted with how Stephen Strange’s grief over his career and his ego are presented. If you take the Dr. Strange movies + WandaVision and Agatha All Along as a set, it’s kind of annoying that women’s power and grief lead to chaos for everyone around them but men’s grief (and ego) lead to enlightenment and hyper rationality. Add in that Tony Stark becomes a father and then chooses to save the world at the cost of himself and…I get kinda annoyed.
posted by warriorqueen at 3:59 AM on October 31, 2024 [15 favorites]
My god... they stuck the landing, what a great ending... and beginning ?
posted by Pendragon at 6:43 AM on October 31, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 6:43 AM on October 31, 2024 [5 favorites]
one complaint.
One.
The 'decay scene' smacked of mid journey level AI Generated imagery - and it really stuck out to me considering all the other costume /sfx /vfx values were so polished.
YMMV but as a person susceptible to the heebie-jeebies from such Imagery it was major Ick.
posted by Faintdreams at 7:03 AM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
One.
The 'decay scene' smacked of mid journey level AI Generated imagery - and it really stuck out to me considering all the other costume /sfx /vfx values were so polished.
YMMV but as a person susceptible to the heebie-jeebies from such Imagery it was major Ick.
posted by Faintdreams at 7:03 AM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
I'm willing to give Billy a pass on the moral culpability for the deaths on the road mostly because he really didn't know that he was causing it, whereas Agatha totally did know and just wasn't saying anything because it would mean revealing her deep dark secrets. Plus, as she said, Agatha killed Alice, and Lilia chose her own end (specifically so as to save them all from the Salem Seven who were... after Agatha specifically, so that's another one that can be pinned on Agatha if we're pinning it on anyone.) The only one truly killed as a result of the trials on the road was Sharon, who shouldn't have even been there except for Agatha's grabbing her to keep up the look of the con, so arguably they're all more on Agatha's ledger than Billy's in any case. But...
By Agatha's "sociopathic math" (thanks warriorqueen!), Billy "saved one life" because Jen survived, whereas Agatha was just planning to kill them all and steal their power. Except that doesn't quite work either, because Sharon wasn't a witch and so wouldn't have blasted Agatha with anything and wouldn't have her life-force stolen, and Jen presumably couldn't have, because she was bound at the time. So Agatha's con could only have taken out Alice and Lilia anyway. I think. (After which maybe she would've killed Jen and Sharon for good measure and tidiness, who knows, but still.)
posted by Navelgazer at 8:22 AM on October 31, 2024 [9 favorites]
By Agatha's "sociopathic math" (thanks warriorqueen!), Billy "saved one life" because Jen survived, whereas Agatha was just planning to kill them all and steal their power. Except that doesn't quite work either, because Sharon wasn't a witch and so wouldn't have blasted Agatha with anything and wouldn't have her life-force stolen, and Jen presumably couldn't have, because she was bound at the time. So Agatha's con could only have taken out Alice and Lilia anyway. I think. (After which maybe she would've killed Jen and Sharon for good measure and tidiness, who knows, but still.)
posted by Navelgazer at 8:22 AM on October 31, 2024 [9 favorites]
Loved it. Great show.
posted by chainlinkspiral at 8:33 AM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by chainlinkspiral at 8:33 AM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
Great stuff, great denouement. Agatha as a ghost is great.
My nitpicky loose end is, what was the rabbit?
I had thought that the rabbit would be revealed as Nicholas Scratch, since his name is 'Senor Scratchy'. and as the plot went on and the rabbit was introduced and shot with Teen, and shot juxtaposed to the Nicholas Scratch plaque, we were supposed to be relating Nicholas with Teen, via editing.
Thus I had thought it would be shown that Agatha had used the Darkhold to place her son's soul in the rabbit, and was seeking more power to bring him back to human. But i am glad it was nothing, I can understand the show having a few spandrels, like the rabbit, in the mix, since what was written and edited held together very well.
I can believe Agatha and Billy together at the end because of these and other emotional and cinematic 'hints'; it's also satisfying to the marvel heads to give Agatha her 'antagonist nanny' role from the comics, but in a narratively satisfying way
posted by eustatic at 9:47 AM on October 31, 2024 [5 favorites]
My nitpicky loose end is, what was the rabbit?
I had thought that the rabbit would be revealed as Nicholas Scratch, since his name is 'Senor Scratchy'. and as the plot went on and the rabbit was introduced and shot with Teen, and shot juxtaposed to the Nicholas Scratch plaque, we were supposed to be relating Nicholas with Teen, via editing.
Thus I had thought it would be shown that Agatha had used the Darkhold to place her son's soul in the rabbit, and was seeking more power to bring him back to human. But i am glad it was nothing, I can understand the show having a few spandrels, like the rabbit, in the mix, since what was written and edited held together very well.
I can believe Agatha and Billy together at the end because of these and other emotional and cinematic 'hints'; it's also satisfying to the marvel heads to give Agatha her 'antagonist nanny' role from the comics, but in a narratively satisfying way
posted by eustatic at 9:47 AM on October 31, 2024 [5 favorites]
I liked the show overall and thought the ending was fine, but it also feels off.
Mainly , what the hell happened between Rio and Agatha, how did they start, how did fall in love?! Who was Nicky's father? Why did Agatha get pregnant, she was lesbian, but wanted a kid, but loved Rio, but what's the story there, I would have liked to have seen the dynamics.
It was also somewhat odd to see Billy's story sort of take over Agatha's story at the end. It wasn't badly done, but it's also like "Whaaa".
That said the dynamic of Billy being a sort of surrogate for Nicky, so Agatha will tag along on adventures, which has a lot of promise!
Plus I wanted to see more of Jen's story. I imagine we'll see more of the character, but wish it was more of it in this story.
The song being created by Nicky and used as bait for Agatha gaining power was absolute jealous. Remember when the song first came out and we were all bopping our heads to it? Awkward now, in such a brilliant way.
Episode 8 might have been a better way to end the series, with episode 9 being part of season 2.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:44 AM on October 31, 2024 [7 favorites]
Mainly , what the hell happened between Rio and Agatha, how did they start, how did fall in love?! Who was Nicky's father? Why did Agatha get pregnant, she was lesbian, but wanted a kid, but loved Rio, but what's the story there, I would have liked to have seen the dynamics.
It was also somewhat odd to see Billy's story sort of take over Agatha's story at the end. It wasn't badly done, but it's also like "Whaaa".
That said the dynamic of Billy being a sort of surrogate for Nicky, so Agatha will tag along on adventures, which has a lot of promise!
Plus I wanted to see more of Jen's story. I imagine we'll see more of the character, but wish it was more of it in this story.
The song being created by Nicky and used as bait for Agatha gaining power was absolute jealous. Remember when the song first came out and we were all bopping our heads to it? Awkward now, in such a brilliant way.
Episode 8 might have been a better way to end the series, with episode 9 being part of season 2.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:44 AM on October 31, 2024 [7 favorites]
Also, I definitely think the residents of Westview should move, like pronto.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:48 AM on October 31, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:48 AM on October 31, 2024 [8 favorites]
I would have expected Agatha to kill even the ones she could not drain to prevent witnesses, and it's barely possible she could have unbound Jen with the others' power and then drained her. I'm fairly sure that Agatha's witch killing was to extend her own life, not just Nicholas'. She did note that she was not able to cure him. It's still ambiguous to me whether she was using some of the power to alleviate Nicholas' illness and Death came because she missed a kill to power the process or if Death came because Nicholas finally made the decision not to continue being bait, and that choice marked the end of the time Death could give.
I'm also willing to give Billy some grace for his body count because he really never knew that he had conjured the trials. In WandaVision, Wanda eventually came to the point where she was keeping up the alternate reality on purpose, knowing what she was doing to the people around her. Billy didn't catch on until it was over. He also at least tried to get assurance that the boy dying to make room for Tommy was going to die either way.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:54 AM on October 31, 2024 [6 favorites]
I'm also willing to give Billy some grace for his body count because he really never knew that he had conjured the trials. In WandaVision, Wanda eventually came to the point where she was keeping up the alternate reality on purpose, knowing what she was doing to the people around her. Billy didn't catch on until it was over. He also at least tried to get assurance that the boy dying to make room for Tommy was going to die either way.
posted by Karmakaze at 10:54 AM on October 31, 2024 [6 favorites]
Also, Jac Schaeffer is the creator of Agatha, she also did WandaVision and was working on VisionQuest for Marvel, before schedule conflicts with Agatha forced her to drop out. I would be very curious to see how she handled a Dr. Strange movie, as I wasn't impressed by either of the two that have been released and there's a third in the works supposedly.
But Schaeffer has been killing it on these miniseries and I suspect the additional oversight and enforced spectacle of a big budget movie might overshadow her talents, so if all we get from her Marel wise is mini-series, that's not so bad!
Either way, I hope Marvel is planted outside her balcony window, offering her all sorts of opportunities.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:58 AM on October 31, 2024 [3 favorites]
But Schaeffer has been killing it on these miniseries and I suspect the additional oversight and enforced spectacle of a big budget movie might overshadow her talents, so if all we get from her Marel wise is mini-series, that's not so bad!
Either way, I hope Marvel is planted outside her balcony window, offering her all sorts of opportunities.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:58 AM on October 31, 2024 [3 favorites]
Plus I wanted to see more of Jen's story.
Jennifer Kale, in the comics, was part of the Man-Thing/Howard the Duck Steve Gerberverse, and both MT and HtD are in the MCU. MT was of course in Werewolf by Night, which also had Elsa Bloodstone. Throw in Blade (if it ever makes it out of development hell) and you'd have a nifty little supernatural sub-universe.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:30 AM on October 31, 2024 [6 favorites]
Jennifer Kale, in the comics, was part of the Man-Thing/Howard the Duck Steve Gerberverse, and both MT and HtD are in the MCU. MT was of course in Werewolf by Night, which also had Elsa Bloodstone. Throw in Blade (if it ever makes it out of development hell) and you'd have a nifty little supernatural sub-universe.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:30 AM on October 31, 2024 [6 favorites]
while i do have problems with the way they handle men's grief vs women's grief in the mcu, they still wrote an amazing grief story here and in WandaVision.
tho, as someone about to lose their child to terminal cancer, damn i could have used a content note about that final episode.
posted by kokaku at 12:16 PM on October 31, 2024 [13 favorites]
tho, as someone about to lose their child to terminal cancer, damn i could have used a content note about that final episode.
posted by kokaku at 12:16 PM on October 31, 2024 [13 favorites]
tho, as someone about to lose their child to terminal cancer, damn i could have used a content note about that final episode.
Hugs if you want 'em; it really was gutting. And agreed they were both very good on grief.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:33 PM on October 31, 2024 [8 favorites]
Hugs if you want 'em; it really was gutting. And agreed they were both very good on grief.
posted by warriorqueen at 12:33 PM on October 31, 2024 [8 favorites]
(BTW, Jac Schaeffer's only feature film, TiMER is back on streaming services -- rental on Apple & Amazon, free with ads other places . It is worth watching and I recommend it, although don't go into it expecting too much. I was glad I finally got to see it, though, and I figures others will be too.)
posted by edencosmic at 1:01 PM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by edencosmic at 1:01 PM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
Also, I definitely think the residents of Westview should move, like pronto.
I had the same thought, but Wanda's shenanigans probably destroyed the property values.
(My husband added, "How long did it take for people to leave Centralia?")
posted by cheshyre at 3:22 PM on October 31, 2024 [2 favorites]
I had the same thought, but Wanda's shenanigans probably destroyed the property values.
(My husband added, "How long did it take for people to leave Centralia?")
posted by cheshyre at 3:22 PM on October 31, 2024 [2 favorites]
I loved this so much! And it’s the gayest thing Marvel has done 💃
Linked in the Vulture recap (archive) is the costume designer’s Instagram which is worth a look!
posted by ellieBOA at 4:35 PM on October 31, 2024 [3 favorites]
Linked in the Vulture recap (archive) is the costume designer’s Instagram which is worth a look!
posted by ellieBOA at 4:35 PM on October 31, 2024 [3 favorites]
For my actual thoughts on this and the series as a whole: I liked that it told a complete story that wasn't necessarily leading to something else (but I'll take whatever it leads to). It was fun and I loved all of our actors. I wish some had been given a bit more to do but that's always a complaint. Aesthetically, it was perfect, and yes, very queer in a delightful way that felt like an important part of the plot.
I like where we leave Agatha, even if she's dead(ish). I want to see more of Billy.
I'm excited to watch the whole series again, knowing where it leads.
posted by edencosmic at 4:45 PM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
I like where we leave Agatha, even if she's dead(ish). I want to see more of Billy.
I'm excited to watch the whole series again, knowing where it leads.
posted by edencosmic at 4:45 PM on October 31, 2024 [1 favorite]
I'm excited to watch the whole series again, knowing where it leads.
There's several marvelous delights. Like Hahn's expressions when the door actually appears and she's putting two and two together or noticing that the bell used to start the road ceremony is Nicky's bell from centuries ago.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:28 AM on November 1, 2024 [3 favorites]
There's several marvelous delights. Like Hahn's expressions when the door actually appears and she's putting two and two together or noticing that the bell used to start the road ceremony is Nicky's bell from centuries ago.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:28 AM on November 1, 2024 [3 favorites]
Mainly , what the hell happened between Rio and Agatha, how did they start, how did fall in love?! Who was Nicky's father? Why did Agatha get pregnant, she was lesbian, but wanted a kid, but loved Rio, but what's the story there, I would have liked to have seen the dynamics.
I feel like most of these aren't super important questions? She kills lots of witches, and encounters death and falls in love. Sure you could tell this on screen but it feels like it's simple to fill in the blanks. She decided she wanted a child, and did the necessary work to create one.
To some other comments upthread, it's very clear that we aren't meant to think Agatha is a good person at all. She clearly isn't, and I loved that the story doesn't redeem her. Instead, she learns to like one boy, who reminds her of the child she loved. As to how her ongoing influence on Billy will impact him, we will see.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:21 AM on November 1, 2024 [7 favorites]
I feel like most of these aren't super important questions? She kills lots of witches, and encounters death and falls in love. Sure you could tell this on screen but it feels like it's simple to fill in the blanks. She decided she wanted a child, and did the necessary work to create one.
To some other comments upthread, it's very clear that we aren't meant to think Agatha is a good person at all. She clearly isn't, and I loved that the story doesn't redeem her. Instead, she learns to like one boy, who reminds her of the child she loved. As to how her ongoing influence on Billy will impact him, we will see.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 6:21 AM on November 1, 2024 [7 favorites]
I want to see more of Jen - a year or two later, when she's had time to work with her restored powers. What does she do with real magic and what she's built for herself in the last century?
And wow. I'd wondered after Lilia if the Road was the way witches die, given their lifespan seems to be hundreds of years. I did not see the scam coming, even though the show is named Agatha All Along.
posted by mersen at 6:41 AM on November 1, 2024 [2 favorites]
And wow. I'd wondered after Lilia if the Road was the way witches die, given their lifespan seems to be hundreds of years. I did not see the scam coming, even though the show is named Agatha All Along.
posted by mersen at 6:41 AM on November 1, 2024 [2 favorites]
That last scene of Jen flying away? That wasn't totally CGI and it still looks amazing without it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:10 PM on November 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:10 PM on November 2, 2024 [10 favorites]
I second Brandon Blatcher on all of this. Still want more backstory as well.
I do kinda like the potential of Billy and GhostAgnes pairing up. Hopefully she can't go around killing every witch around any more and can be more of a playful...something.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:14 PM on November 3, 2024
I do kinda like the potential of Billy and GhostAgnes pairing up. Hopefully she can't go around killing every witch around any more and can be more of a playful...something.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:14 PM on November 3, 2024
That practical effects shot of Jennifer flying was magnificent.
That actress must be BUFF to keep form / position whilst being suspended like that!
posted by Faintdreams at 7:22 AM on November 5, 2024 [1 favorite]
That actress must be BUFF to keep form / position whilst being suspended like that!
posted by Faintdreams at 7:22 AM on November 5, 2024 [1 favorite]
I feel like most of these aren't super important questions? She kills lots of witches, and encounters death and falls in love. Sure you could tell this on screen but it feels like it's simple to fill in the blanks.
I have to disagree here. The relationship between Agatha and Rio was super important to the story. There was purposeful language between/about the two throughout the series that implied a much deeper relationship. Why even have this powerful dramatic undercurrent if it isn’t going to have some importance to the conclusion? Just to justify a kiss? The relationship ended up having no payoff that had any real import to the story, and yet its importance is being teased to us throughout as being almost central to the plot. Some explanation is required.
And why was Agatha killing witches and taking their powers to begin with? That seems like some super-abhorrent behavior toward your own kind, or some deep-seated self-loathing being outwardly manifested. In either case, killing other witches was pretty central to her character throughout the show. The other characters often made oblique mention of Agatha’s reputation. Yet, we never know why she was doing it.
She certainly wasn’t killing to somehow extend Nicholas’ life if she was already in love with Rio/Death when she gave birth. Plus, we never see (unless I blinked and missed it) her dose Nicholas with a bit of stolen magic, which would have quickly and easily explained the serial killing. But, then you’re still left with her inexplicable love for Rio/Death.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:05 AM on November 6, 2024 [3 favorites]
I have to disagree here. The relationship between Agatha and Rio was super important to the story. There was purposeful language between/about the two throughout the series that implied a much deeper relationship. Why even have this powerful dramatic undercurrent if it isn’t going to have some importance to the conclusion? Just to justify a kiss? The relationship ended up having no payoff that had any real import to the story, and yet its importance is being teased to us throughout as being almost central to the plot. Some explanation is required.
And why was Agatha killing witches and taking their powers to begin with? That seems like some super-abhorrent behavior toward your own kind, or some deep-seated self-loathing being outwardly manifested. In either case, killing other witches was pretty central to her character throughout the show. The other characters often made oblique mention of Agatha’s reputation. Yet, we never know why she was doing it.
She certainly wasn’t killing to somehow extend Nicholas’ life if she was already in love with Rio/Death when she gave birth. Plus, we never see (unless I blinked and missed it) her dose Nicholas with a bit of stolen magic, which would have quickly and easily explained the serial killing. But, then you’re still left with her inexplicable love for Rio/Death.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:05 AM on November 6, 2024 [3 favorites]
I have to disagree here. The relationship between Agatha and Rio was super important to the story. There was purposeful language between/about the two throughout the series that implied a much deeper relationship. Why even have this powerful dramatic undercurrent if it isn’t going to have some importance to the conclusion? Just to justify a kiss? The relationship ended up having no payoff that had any real import to the story, and yet its importance is being teased to us throughout as being almost central to the plot. Some explanation is required.
And why was Agatha killing witches and taking their powers to begin with? That seems like some super-abhorrent behavior toward your own kind, or some deep-seated self-loathing being outwardly manifested. In either case, killing other witches was pretty central to her character throughout the show. The other characters often made oblique mention of Agatha’s reputation. Yet, we never know why she was doing it.
She certainly wasn’t killing to somehow extend Nicholas’ life if she was already in love with Rio/Death when she gave birth. Plus, we never see (unless I blinked and missed it) her dose Nicholas with a bit of stolen magic, which would have quickly and easily explained the serial killing. But, then you’re still left with her inexplicable love for Rio/Death.
I feel like for sure it might be interesting to see some of this answered, but I also think some of it was deliberately withheld.
For the story they were telling, all we need to know is that Agatha loved death, and death took her child, so now she hates her. As to exactly how their relationship worked, I don't really see why I need more than that.
She killed witches because it gave her power and she liked it. There probably is some more to it than that, but it seems evident from both Wandavision and this show was that whatever else might be motivating her, at her core Agatha simply doesn't value the lives of other witches.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 8:00 AM on November 6, 2024
And why was Agatha killing witches and taking their powers to begin with? That seems like some super-abhorrent behavior toward your own kind, or some deep-seated self-loathing being outwardly manifested. In either case, killing other witches was pretty central to her character throughout the show. The other characters often made oblique mention of Agatha’s reputation. Yet, we never know why she was doing it.
She certainly wasn’t killing to somehow extend Nicholas’ life if she was already in love with Rio/Death when she gave birth. Plus, we never see (unless I blinked and missed it) her dose Nicholas with a bit of stolen magic, which would have quickly and easily explained the serial killing. But, then you’re still left with her inexplicable love for Rio/Death.
I feel like for sure it might be interesting to see some of this answered, but I also think some of it was deliberately withheld.
For the story they were telling, all we need to know is that Agatha loved death, and death took her child, so now she hates her. As to exactly how their relationship worked, I don't really see why I need more than that.
She killed witches because it gave her power and she liked it. There probably is some more to it than that, but it seems evident from both Wandavision and this show was that whatever else might be motivating her, at her core Agatha simply doesn't value the lives of other witches.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 8:00 AM on November 6, 2024
So is the implication that Agatha killed Alice's mother as well?
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:20 AM on November 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Parasite Unseen at 11:20 AM on November 6, 2024 [1 favorite]
There was purposeful language between/about the two throughout the series that implied a much deeper relationship. Why even have this powerful dramatic undercurrent if it isn’t going to have some importance to the conclusion? Just to justify a kiss? The relationship ended up having no payoff that had any real import to the story, and yet its importance is being teased to us throughout as being almost central to the plot. Some explanation is required.
I would be totally down for a mini series just on Rio and Agatha's relationship.
But narratively, Rio was actually in the story to both be the bad guy for the fight scene and to humanize Agatha and make her decision to mentor Billy (and Billy's decision to accept her as a mentor) understandable.
Most of what Rio does as Rio (as opposed to as Death) is humanize Agatha. Agatha had a lover. They broke up and she's clearly not completely over it. That makes her much more sympathetic as a character. Then it turns out her lover is Death, which is a nice levelling up of stakes; of course Agatha couldn't just fall in love with some regular old witch, and also Death herself fell in love with Agatha. Then it increases the pathos around Nicholas in two ways - Death's giving Agatha extra years with her son, so it's not just that Agatha knows he's going to die but those years are a gift from her lover/ex-lover Death. It makes the breakup understandable.
And then too, we see Rio's compassion for Agatha, so that leads the audience to more empathy for Agatha too.
That whole grief plot would not have hit so hard if we didn't have Rio's viewpoint in the story, and if Agatha hadn't been humanized as someone who can love before she loved her son. The use of time in that -- getting the fiery love/hate thing in the future and not seeing the whole relationship in the past -- is I think actually pretty masterful; it's respectful of the audience and lets us fill in what we know about relationships from the "ex showing up" footprint.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:00 AM on November 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
I would be totally down for a mini series just on Rio and Agatha's relationship.
But narratively, Rio was actually in the story to both be the bad guy for the fight scene and to humanize Agatha and make her decision to mentor Billy (and Billy's decision to accept her as a mentor) understandable.
Most of what Rio does as Rio (as opposed to as Death) is humanize Agatha. Agatha had a lover. They broke up and she's clearly not completely over it. That makes her much more sympathetic as a character. Then it turns out her lover is Death, which is a nice levelling up of stakes; of course Agatha couldn't just fall in love with some regular old witch, and also Death herself fell in love with Agatha. Then it increases the pathos around Nicholas in two ways - Death's giving Agatha extra years with her son, so it's not just that Agatha knows he's going to die but those years are a gift from her lover/ex-lover Death. It makes the breakup understandable.
And then too, we see Rio's compassion for Agatha, so that leads the audience to more empathy for Agatha too.
That whole grief plot would not have hit so hard if we didn't have Rio's viewpoint in the story, and if Agatha hadn't been humanized as someone who can love before she loved her son. The use of time in that -- getting the fiery love/hate thing in the future and not seeing the whole relationship in the past -- is I think actually pretty masterful; it's respectful of the audience and lets us fill in what we know about relationships from the "ex showing up" footprint.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:00 AM on November 7, 2024 [3 favorites]
And why was Agatha killing witches and taking their powers to begin with?
I think we got most of this information in Wandavision though, where the other witches and Agatha's mother are going to kill her for stealing knowledge, and then Agatha kills them all. I thought there was an excellent nod to this where she and Nicholas are walking along and Agatha's reading obsessively (also I used to do this as a kid).
Agatha is greedy for knowledge and power and to be top witch.
I wonder if she were a man if we would need more than that. There is a trend to provide backstory etc. in the modern superhero films but I wouldn't characterize Agatha as having less backstory than Thanos, Hela, Ultron, Red Skull, etc.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:14 AM on November 7, 2024
I think we got most of this information in Wandavision though, where the other witches and Agatha's mother are going to kill her for stealing knowledge, and then Agatha kills them all. I thought there was an excellent nod to this where she and Nicholas are walking along and Agatha's reading obsessively (also I used to do this as a kid).
Agatha is greedy for knowledge and power and to be top witch.
I wonder if she were a man if we would need more than that. There is a trend to provide backstory etc. in the modern superhero films but I wouldn't characterize Agatha as having less backstory than Thanos, Hela, Ultron, Red Skull, etc.
posted by warriorqueen at 8:14 AM on November 7, 2024
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Preview for Marvel on Disney+ in 2025:
- “What If…?” (animated) Season 3 December 22.
- “Your Friendly Neighborhood Spider-Man” (animated) January 29, 2025.
- “Daredevil: Born Again” (live-action) March 4, 2025.
- “Ironheart,” (live-action) June 24, 2025.
- “Eyes of Wakanda” (animagted) August 6, 2025.
- “Marvel Zombies” (animated) October 2025.
- “Wonder Man” (live-action) December 2025.
Looks like no X-Men 97 Season 2 next year.posted by 1970s Antihero at 7:37 PM on October 30, 2024 [2 favorites]