Severance: Who Is Alive?
January 30, 2025 10:25 PM - Season 2, Episode 3 - Subscribe
Mark, Helly, Irving, and Dylan search for answers.
"I think you've overestimated your contributions and underestimated your blessings" was cold.
posted by simonw at 10:44 PM on January 30 [16 favorites]
posted by simonw at 10:44 PM on January 30 [16 favorites]
I'm planning to rewatch it and mull it over because whoa, wtf
posted by Pronoiac at 11:12 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 11:12 PM on January 30 [2 favorites]
Mammalian Nurturables
posted by dragstroke at 11:29 PM on January 30 [7 favorites]
posted by dragstroke at 11:29 PM on January 30 [7 favorites]
There's these three awkward nonverbal scenes between men and women in the show, where they look at each other, smiling off and on, but never kiss, and I have to assume there's some kind of relationship among the scenes:
1. Mark and Helly.
2. Milchick and Natalie.
3. Dylan and his wife.
I figure the Dylan and his wife is the template here, as we know the situation is an innie and outie meeting. We expect Mark is meeting with Helena, perhaps making that another innie plus outie pairing. Which leaves Milchick and Natalie. Does that make Milchick the innie and Natalie an outie?
We've seen Milchick serve Lumon outside the severed floor, but my interpretation of Selvig's behavior this episode is that she is severed but the range of her severance is greater. She drives far enough away to be out of range, and her outie takes over, deciphers what happened and u-turns when she sees a sign showing she's headed in the wrong direction. Presumably a now calmer Cobel returns to Lumon to negotiate with Helena but gets cold feet at the last minute and runs away again. So if Selvig's severance was a requirement of being floor manager for Selvig then it stands to reason Milchick is also qualified in the same way. And then the consistency of his actions inside and outside the Lumon building are because his range is also extended.
This also implies Milchick and Natalie may be more than just professionally entwined, but it's hard to say given Natalie's own role as a speaker for the board.
--
It seems at this point it appears all four outies have means of communication with innies.
1. Helena just walks in unsevered.
2. Mark reintegrates. Or maybe he borrows Ricken's writing.
3. Dylan can use his wife as a bidirectional go between.
4. Irv has communicated a picture of the hallway to his innie subconsciously.
But what questions and answers need to be communicated? Mark's is obvious and the episode title.
---
Mammalian Nurturables
I'm a little disappointed they didn't walk out into a role reversal: a giant room with goats towering over them the way they tower over goats. But I suppose the series prefers to imply supernatural connections and shows only scientific fictions like neural stimulation, severance, and whatever the story is with Gemma.
I'm not actually sure what purpose this encounter did, other than reveal a lot more people work on the goat farm than macro data refinement.
---
It's interesting that Kier describes 4 temperaments but Reghabi describes 5 brain waves. Sadly, some quick googling suggests her exposition matches current science, rather than the writers inventing something to suggest a 5th temperament.
posted by pwnguin at 1:30 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
1. Mark and Helly.
2. Milchick and Natalie.
3. Dylan and his wife.
I figure the Dylan and his wife is the template here, as we know the situation is an innie and outie meeting. We expect Mark is meeting with Helena, perhaps making that another innie plus outie pairing. Which leaves Milchick and Natalie. Does that make Milchick the innie and Natalie an outie?
We've seen Milchick serve Lumon outside the severed floor, but my interpretation of Selvig's behavior this episode is that she is severed but the range of her severance is greater. She drives far enough away to be out of range, and her outie takes over, deciphers what happened and u-turns when she sees a sign showing she's headed in the wrong direction. Presumably a now calmer Cobel returns to Lumon to negotiate with Helena but gets cold feet at the last minute and runs away again. So if Selvig's severance was a requirement of being floor manager for Selvig then it stands to reason Milchick is also qualified in the same way. And then the consistency of his actions inside and outside the Lumon building are because his range is also extended.
This also implies Milchick and Natalie may be more than just professionally entwined, but it's hard to say given Natalie's own role as a speaker for the board.
--
It seems at this point it appears all four outies have means of communication with innies.
1. Helena just walks in unsevered.
2. Mark reintegrates. Or maybe he borrows Ricken's writing.
3. Dylan can use his wife as a bidirectional go between.
4. Irv has communicated a picture of the hallway to his innie subconsciously.
But what questions and answers need to be communicated? Mark's is obvious and the episode title.
---
Mammalian Nurturables
I'm a little disappointed they didn't walk out into a role reversal: a giant room with goats towering over them the way they tower over goats. But I suppose the series prefers to imply supernatural connections and shows only scientific fictions like neural stimulation, severance, and whatever the story is with Gemma.
I'm not actually sure what purpose this encounter did, other than reveal a lot more people work on the goat farm than macro data refinement.
---
It's interesting that Kier describes 4 temperaments but Reghabi describes 5 brain waves. Sadly, some quick googling suggests her exposition matches current science, rather than the writers inventing something to suggest a 5th temperament.
posted by pwnguin at 1:30 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Anybody else feeling that Dylan's wife has fallen out of love with Dylan George and is falling in love with Dylan G ?
posted by Pendragon at 4:11 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 4:11 AM on January 31 [10 favorites]
The whole dynamic of Dylan meeting his outie's wife was so weird and uncomfortable. I'd like to know how Lumon talked them into it. Maybe they got a cash bonus?
That was so weird! And it's another one of those work phenomenons taken to extremes -- how odd it feels when your loved ones visit the office, how the energy changes when your partner notices how your work persona and your home persona aren't quite the same.
And I was so pleasantly surprised they brought in the real Gretchen. I don't think they had to pay her at all -- she knows Dylan needs this job, the whole family needs on this job. If Lumon told her that it would help with Dylan's performance at work, she'd be all in.
It's hard for me to read Gretchen's reaction to Dylan G. Was she so reserved because she liked him so much? Was she reserved because the difference in him was so profound that it unnerved her? Is this what Dylan George was like when she married him and she blames herself for her husband's lack of motivation?
Irving and Felicia -- their genuine pleasure in reminiscing. That sweet detail about Bert being so nervous to visit MDR. Also, EXPORTS?
The goat people! The jarring visual of goat-sprigged hills inside a huge office room with white walls and ceiling panels. Petey's map indicated an area where people lived there full time -- from their rough look to their unusual way of speaking, they seem to be full timers if not for years, then possibly for generations?
This is all moving so fast!
posted by mochapickle at 4:26 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
That was so weird! And it's another one of those work phenomenons taken to extremes -- how odd it feels when your loved ones visit the office, how the energy changes when your partner notices how your work persona and your home persona aren't quite the same.
And I was so pleasantly surprised they brought in the real Gretchen. I don't think they had to pay her at all -- she knows Dylan needs this job, the whole family needs on this job. If Lumon told her that it would help with Dylan's performance at work, she'd be all in.
It's hard for me to read Gretchen's reaction to Dylan G. Was she so reserved because she liked him so much? Was she reserved because the difference in him was so profound that it unnerved her? Is this what Dylan George was like when she married him and she blames herself for her husband's lack of motivation?
Irving and Felicia -- their genuine pleasure in reminiscing. That sweet detail about Bert being so nervous to visit MDR. Also, EXPORTS?
The goat people! The jarring visual of goat-sprigged hills inside a huge office room with white walls and ceiling panels. Petey's map indicated an area where people lived there full time -- from their rough look to their unusual way of speaking, they seem to be full timers if not for years, then possibly for generations?
This is all moving so fast!
posted by mochapickle at 4:26 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Also, the promise of that visitation room was so effective in keeping Dylan in line. No searching for Ms. Casey, no helping Irving.
posted by mochapickle at 4:28 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 4:28 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
That theory that Cobel is long range severed and that's why she drove so far away and then changed her mind and came back again is very solid.
posted by simonw at 5:08 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
posted by simonw at 5:08 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
Yep, the change in Dylan was wild; Lumon really hooked him with this new perk. At the end of last season, he ended up being a hero to the rest of his team. He sacrificed his chance to see his wife and kids (again, sorta), so that the rest of the team could 'go outside'. The prize he asked for, before that, was one of those little etched holo things of his team.
But he did that, he was so loyal to his team, because of his anger about knowing of his outie's family. He bit Milchick! Now, he's finding every excuse to stay away from the rest of the team's adventures - staying out of trouble and just working. And outie Dylan had some amount of time thinking he had lost his job, and was having trouble getting another. Lumon found a way to sort of unify innie and outie Dylan in terms of "I really need this job". I'm sure Lumon is still monitoring them, but if they weren't, they've got a fine mole if needed.
Watching Harmony head towards Lumon with Helena and then slowly (knowing things we don't quite know about Lumon) deciding, in an act of self-preservation, to back away and leave, was really intense.
posted by destructive cactus at 5:55 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
But he did that, he was so loyal to his team, because of his anger about knowing of his outie's family. He bit Milchick! Now, he's finding every excuse to stay away from the rest of the team's adventures - staying out of trouble and just working. And outie Dylan had some amount of time thinking he had lost his job, and was having trouble getting another. Lumon found a way to sort of unify innie and outie Dylan in terms of "I really need this job". I'm sure Lumon is still monitoring them, but if they weren't, they've got a fine mole if needed.
Watching Harmony head towards Lumon with Helena and then slowly (knowing things we don't quite know about Lumon) deciding, in an act of self-preservation, to back away and leave, was really intense.
posted by destructive cactus at 5:55 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
pwnguin: 2. Milchick and Natalie.
I got the sense that that was two Black people trying to determine if the other found the blackface paintings as awful as they did or not.
It's interesting that Kier describes 4 temperaments but Reghabi describes 5 brain waves.
The numbers are sorted into five bins - each with four temperaments.
And that four-loop pattern that appeared on the screen as Mark was becoming reintegrated was also on the screen when we got those flashes of Gemma/Ms. Casey at the end of the season premiere.
It's starting to look like the first season was the slow ratcheting up the first hill of a roller coaster, and we reached the top at the S1 finale, and now AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
posted by tzikeh at 6:29 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
I got the sense that that was two Black people trying to determine if the other found the blackface paintings as awful as they did or not.
It's interesting that Kier describes 4 temperaments but Reghabi describes 5 brain waves.
The numbers are sorted into five bins - each with four temperaments.
And that four-loop pattern that appeared on the screen as Mark was becoming reintegrated was also on the screen when we got those flashes of Gemma/Ms. Casey at the end of the season premiere.
It's starting to look like the first season was the slow ratcheting up the first hill of a roller coaster, and we reached the top at the S1 finale, and now AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
posted by tzikeh at 6:29 AM on January 31 [9 favorites]
Tzikeh, I interpreted the Milchick/Natalie eye conversation in the same way.
posted by emkelley at 6:36 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
posted by emkelley at 6:36 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
4. Irv has communicated a picture of the hallway to his innie subconsciously.
No - Irv's innie saw all of the paintings in the S1 finale - no subconscious needed. Finding out it's the "Export" hallway is unsettling, just because every normal word on this show feels like it could mean something awful. Another example is when Helena said to Cobel that they should "reset", and Cobel became hesitant to follow her, ultimately turning and hurrying away. Now I want to know if there's a different, more dreadful meaning of "reset" at Lumon - could that be what MDR is doing? Is Ms. Casey being "reset"?
posted by tzikeh at 6:44 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
No - Irv's innie saw all of the paintings in the S1 finale - no subconscious needed. Finding out it's the "Export" hallway is unsettling, just because every normal word on this show feels like it could mean something awful. Another example is when Helena said to Cobel that they should "reset", and Cobel became hesitant to follow her, ultimately turning and hurrying away. Now I want to know if there's a different, more dreadful meaning of "reset" at Lumon - could that be what MDR is doing? Is Ms. Casey being "reset"?
posted by tzikeh at 6:44 AM on January 31 [8 favorites]
Watching Harmony head towards Lumon with Helena and then slowly (knowing things we don't quite know about Lumon) deciding, in an act of self-preservation, to back away and leave, was really intense.
That was giving me serious Goodfellas "Karen-decides-she-don't-need-new-Dior-dresses-that-badly" vibes.
posted by Molesome at 7:13 AM on January 31 [14 favorites]
That was giving me serious Goodfellas "Karen-decides-she-don't-need-new-Dior-dresses-that-badly" vibes.
posted by Molesome at 7:13 AM on January 31 [14 favorites]
Though I'm still obsessed with watching the show, a little part of me is discontented. Long wait / unfulfillable expectations? Too many plot irons in the fire?
Or, it just occurred to me, this arc is the team falling apart, and maybe I hate to see it. Lumon is playing them and/or they're choosing personal needs over the team.
1.We might not even have seen Helly yet. (The rebellion instigator.) Rather an Eagan family infiltrator.
2. Dylan is focusing on *his* family. (The very thing that caused him to rebel last season.)
3. iIrving, who wanted to burn it down because Burt left, is bereft because he saw Burt's outside life.
4. And now Mark abruptly tries to *reintegrate*, and probably won't tell the innies.
All understandable, of course. But I need my team back.
And wtf is going on with Cobel and Milchick. Are they both moving toward anti-Lumon?
posted by NorthernLite at 7:23 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Or, it just occurred to me, this arc is the team falling apart, and maybe I hate to see it. Lumon is playing them and/or they're choosing personal needs over the team.
1.We might not even have seen Helly yet. (The rebellion instigator.) Rather an Eagan family infiltrator.
2. Dylan is focusing on *his* family. (The very thing that caused him to rebel last season.)
3. iIrving, who wanted to burn it down because Burt left, is bereft because he saw Burt's outside life.
4. And now Mark abruptly tries to *reintegrate*, and probably won't tell the innies.
All understandable, of course. But I need my team back.
And wtf is going on with Cobel and Milchick. Are they both moving toward anti-Lumon?
posted by NorthernLite at 7:23 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Finding out it's the "Export" hallway is unsettling, just because every normal word on this show feels like it could mean something awful.
Right? Because it would certainly make sense they would just be exporting all those watering cans we saw them making but it sure doesn't feel that way.
I find it pretty odd that Gretchen and Outie Dylan don't immediately have a debrief on the Dylan G meeting instead of the offhand "oh hey how did it go?". She tells Dylan G that she is always proud of him, but it sure doesn't seem that way as she tells him how to cook tube cookie dough while he watches cartoons with the kids (the cartoon is Dangermouse, which ran in the 1980s, lending to the retro vibe of the show setting).
posted by mikepop at 7:44 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
Right? Because it would certainly make sense they would just be exporting all those watering cans we saw them making but it sure doesn't feel that way.
I find it pretty odd that Gretchen and Outie Dylan don't immediately have a debrief on the Dylan G meeting instead of the offhand "oh hey how did it go?". She tells Dylan G that she is always proud of him, but it sure doesn't seem that way as she tells him how to cook tube cookie dough while he watches cartoons with the kids (the cartoon is Dangermouse, which ran in the 1980s, lending to the retro vibe of the show setting).
posted by mikepop at 7:44 AM on January 31 [5 favorites]
I wish that Apple had put up the big bucks and enabled an ad-free podcast. Lumon ads, like The Good Place podcast did, would also be acceptable. It’s distracting (& funny) to hear Ben and Adam do the Podcast Ad Thing.
posted by emkelley at 8:07 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by emkelley at 8:07 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Mikepop, I think Gretchen might always be proud of Dylan G.—the sacrifices he’s making for the family, etc. But not necessarily his outie. From what we’ve seen, what’s to be proud of?
posted by emkelley at 8:09 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by emkelley at 8:09 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
The official podcast episode has some fun behind the scenes goat chaos at 33m05s.
posted by simonw at 8:25 AM on January 31
posted by simonw at 8:25 AM on January 31
The You You Are by Dr. Ricken Lazlo Hale, PhD.
posted by nathan_teske at 9:23 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
posted by nathan_teske at 9:23 AM on January 31 [6 favorites]
Oooh.
So, wait, why would Lumon ask Ricken Hale to work for them? Corporations kill off their competition through acquisition -- could there be any other reason?
posted by mochapickle at 9:36 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
So, wait, why would Lumon ask Ricken Hale to work for them? Corporations kill off their competition through acquisition -- could there be any other reason?
posted by mochapickle at 9:36 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
OK Ricken's audiobook is amazing. Chapter 1 on his name is crammed with background information about the character and it is wonderful.
posted by simonw at 9:44 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by simonw at 9:44 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
I started a separate thread for the book/audiobook because I want to post quotes from it without spoilers for people who haven't read it yet.
posted by simonw at 9:59 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
posted by simonw at 9:59 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
I think this is the first episode I've watched where I came away sad at the end. I'm not feeling the drive to watch the next episode, the curiosity and excitement I've had with the rest. The idea of Mark reintegrating, it's... it's like we're killing Mark S, the same way Milchick uses that as pressure on the big four outies.
It must feel different to outie Mark, like he's not ending the innie's stream of consciousness but instead he's going to time-share his body at will. Or maybe he's so fed up with the situation and so driven by finding Gemma that he simply does not care. On reflection I'm interested to see where he/they go emotionally after this moment! I suspect I'm still going to miss the two Marks as individuals and hope the reintegration is satisfying if not perhaps a resounding success.
Also, why did this get released on Thursday? I could have sworn it was on Fridays but I'll take it!
posted by Brassica oleracea at 10:18 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
It must feel different to outie Mark, like he's not ending the innie's stream of consciousness but instead he's going to time-share his body at will. Or maybe he's so fed up with the situation and so driven by finding Gemma that he simply does not care. On reflection I'm interested to see where he/they go emotionally after this moment! I suspect I'm still going to miss the two Marks as individuals and hope the reintegration is satisfying if not perhaps a resounding success.
Also, why did this get released on Thursday? I could have sworn it was on Fridays but I'll take it!
posted by Brassica oleracea at 10:18 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Also, why did this get released on Thursday? I could have sworn it was on Fridays but I'll take it!
For some reason, when Apple says a show is releasing on Friday, they instead release it at 9pm Eastern time on Thursday.
posted by Ragged Richard at 10:30 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
For some reason, when Apple says a show is releasing on Friday, they instead release it at 9pm Eastern time on Thursday.
posted by Ragged Richard at 10:30 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
For some reason, when Apple says a show is releasing on Friday, they instead release it at 9pm Eastern time on Thursday.
It’s like a Cupertino sabbath!
posted by eirias at 10:36 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
It’s like a Cupertino sabbath!
posted by eirias at 10:36 AM on January 31 [7 favorites]
I'm curious if next episode will be partly a flashback to Mark S.'s first days at Lumon in the guise of Outie Mark first becoming aware of the memories. So it could show what he and Petey were up to, maybe reveal why Mrs. Cobel has such an interest in him, etc.
posted by mikepop at 10:41 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by mikepop at 10:41 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
So, wait, why would Lumon ask Ricken Hale to work for them?
Yeah - Lumon knows they have to work with what the innies already know - we saw that in the fake newspaper (and story) Milchick presented to the innies. That newspaper actually made it a point to say that Ricken is very Lumon/Kier-aligned and had written another pro-Kier book, so it makes sense to further that narrative by actually working with Ricken on the outside (if he says no, they could just fake it, but it probably is easier to have the lie be 'a version of' the truth for consistency). They can probably give this 'newly-revised' book to the innies and downplay any noticed changes - also, ugh, I just realized Ricken probably already let slip to Natalie that innie Mark loved his book, and he knows this because they talked about it...
Ricken will obviously do it because he loves his ego fluffed, but I doubt Devon is going to be into that ... though she'll probably have a new distraction on her hands with her brother's reintegration(?).
posted by destructive cactus at 11:01 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Yeah - Lumon knows they have to work with what the innies already know - we saw that in the fake newspaper (and story) Milchick presented to the innies. That newspaper actually made it a point to say that Ricken is very Lumon/Kier-aligned and had written another pro-Kier book, so it makes sense to further that narrative by actually working with Ricken on the outside (if he says no, they could just fake it, but it probably is easier to have the lie be 'a version of' the truth for consistency). They can probably give this 'newly-revised' book to the innies and downplay any noticed changes - also, ugh, I just realized Ricken probably already let slip to Natalie that innie Mark loved his book, and he knows this because they talked about it...
Ricken will obviously do it because he loves his ego fluffed, but I doubt Devon is going to be into that ... though she'll probably have a new distraction on her hands with her brother's reintegration(?).
posted by destructive cactus at 11:01 AM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Lumon effed up with Milchick. "Here's a blue-eyed blackface Kier." I don't think Milchick felt different until they pointed it out.
I don't like Cobel, but her having the ovaries to call Helena a nepo baby was A-OK. (I almost thought a twist would be Helena saying, "Come on, Mother.")
Remind me - the general public didn’t see Helena's apology? Or else, our outside characters would discuss an Eagan momentarily claimed to be an innie on that same night.
And Mark not asking Rehgabi: "WHY did Lumon do that to Gemma?"
Brassica, that's a bit what I meant about missing all the old innie gang, "The Four MDRs," so to speak. (Tho I'm liking Britt Lower's Helena.)
posted by NorthernLite at 11:24 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
I don't like Cobel, but her having the ovaries to call Helena a nepo baby was A-OK. (I almost thought a twist would be Helena saying, "Come on, Mother.")
Remind me - the general public didn’t see Helena's apology? Or else, our outside characters would discuss an Eagan momentarily claimed to be an innie on that same night.
And Mark not asking Rehgabi: "WHY did Lumon do that to Gemma?"
Brassica, that's a bit what I meant about missing all the old innie gang, "The Four MDRs," so to speak. (Tho I'm liking Britt Lower's Helena.)
posted by NorthernLite at 11:24 AM on January 31 [4 favorites]
NorthernLite, the Severance podcast on S2E1 had Tramell Tillman on, and he talks a bit about race at Lumon. I think I would have preferred that they had him on for this episode though!
posted by emkelley at 11:32 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
posted by emkelley at 11:32 AM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Yeah, the attendees of that Lumon event were bigwig pro-Lumon insiders, it seemed like, and they made a point of mentioning how they had a clean up crew confiscate any footage of it, etc. Then Helena posted that big apology, saying it was a bad joke influenced by (non-Lumon) medication and alcohol. In other words, Lumon's narrative to the innies that their little field trip was successful and had a big world-changing effect is a fabrication to keep them placated.
posted by destructive cactus at 11:35 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
posted by destructive cactus at 11:35 AM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Natalie's smile is so unnerving; it feels very much like a mask that she's wearing, that she knows that they're always being watched by the Board; that the business of the speaker, and of formally announcing when the Board is on the call / off the call, is all just performative theater to control the floor manager.
Yeah, I read that scene as them both being quietly horrified by the blackface paintings but being unable to express it directly. Notice that here it is the Board expressing Natalies purported feelings:
On language also, this nugget in the Natalie/Ricken/Devon scene:
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:01 PM on January 31 [9 favorites]
Yeah, I read that scene as them both being quietly horrified by the blackface paintings but being unable to express it directly. Notice that here it is the Board expressing Natalies purported feelings:
The Board wishes to express that I, Natalie, received the same gift upon receipt of my current position and found it extremely moving.And also I thought it telling that Milchick, a man with a delightful command of language, was so lost for appropriate words that his politic "It's meaningful to see myself reflected in..." sentence simply hangs unfinished until Natalie lets him off the hook with "the Board has concluded the call".
On language also, this nugget in the Natalie/Ricken/Devon scene:
There's a certain verbiage to which innies respond more favorably.Is this why Milchick and Selvig consistently choose the most idiosyncratic phrasings? Because the language itself is a means of control?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:01 PM on January 31 [9 favorites]
Also: the Security Room is gone; replaced by the Family Visitation Suite.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:09 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:09 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
It's been a minute since I've visited fanfare, but of course Severance season 2 would lure me back! Have a couple Qs, wonder what you all think?
1) What's the significance of the Board's misuse of the word "austerely"?
2) Why do the writers seem to be making a point of Irving's having been back at Lumon for a longish time? He apologizes to Felicia for popping in "after all this time," and I chalked it up to the time being long as a fraction of his innie life. But then he shows her his drawing book and says that he's drawn a picture of Burt every day since he left. And there are many pages of drawings--way more than the innie days that have passed since the insurrection...?
posted by torticat at 12:23 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
1) What's the significance of the Board's misuse of the word "austerely"?
2) Why do the writers seem to be making a point of Irving's having been back at Lumon for a longish time? He apologizes to Felicia for popping in "after all this time," and I chalked it up to the time being long as a fraction of his innie life. But then he shows her his drawing book and says that he's drawn a picture of Burt every day since he left. And there are many pages of drawings--way more than the innie days that have passed since the insurrection...?
posted by torticat at 12:23 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
My favorite quotes:
* "And we live on a cattle ranch?"
* "Pouchless."
Hmm?
* Wine is famously costly?
* Gwendoline Christie, without words: "I've got a fever, and the only prescription, is more cowbell!"
Braindump:
* Mark using the stopwatch as he wandered in was giving strong heist vibes.
* Dylan was big on following rules in season 1, right up until he met his son.
* The goat corridor gave me vibes of the half floor from Being John Malkovich, and ... I feel like the questions of identity that brings up could be a rabbit hole
* I wanted to make a comparison of "a man in goat's clothing" to "a wolf in sheep's clothing" but I worry like It would sound like something Ricken would write
* wtf do the goat farmer outties think of their jobs. How do they dress going in.
* dreamlike imagery: in an office, there are grassy hills, and baby goats, with a vending machine over to the side
* Natalie and The Board are readily available at night?
* did Gretchen talk more to Innie Dylan than Outtie Dylan that day?
* wait, was Ricken a fan of severance? I didn't think so?
* The doc, Asal Raghabi, really sucks at communicating, huh
About reintegration, that could be only for the length of the procedure. The innie and outtie could be separate again shortly.
posted by Pronoiac at 12:36 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
* "And we live on a cattle ranch?"
* "Pouchless."
Hmm?
* Wine is famously costly?
* Gwendoline Christie, without words: "I've got a fever, and the only prescription, is more cowbell!"
Braindump:
* Mark using the stopwatch as he wandered in was giving strong heist vibes.
* Dylan was big on following rules in season 1, right up until he met his son.
* The goat corridor gave me vibes of the half floor from Being John Malkovich, and ... I feel like the questions of identity that brings up could be a rabbit hole
* I wanted to make a comparison of "a man in goat's clothing" to "a wolf in sheep's clothing" but I worry like It would sound like something Ricken would write
* wtf do the goat farmer outties think of their jobs. How do they dress going in.
* dreamlike imagery: in an office, there are grassy hills, and baby goats, with a vending machine over to the side
* Natalie and The Board are readily available at night?
* did Gretchen talk more to Innie Dylan than Outtie Dylan that day?
* wait, was Ricken a fan of severance? I didn't think so?
* The doc, Asal Raghabi, really sucks at communicating, huh
About reintegration, that could be only for the length of the procedure. The innie and outtie could be separate again shortly.
posted by Pronoiac at 12:36 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
1. I think the Cobel situation is being overthought. She's not severed, she was just leaving in a rage then decided to go back and make one more stand. She confronted Helena but when Helena made it clear Lumon had no further interest in her it dawned on her that Helena was going to have her harmed if she came inside so she left.
2. I don't think the Board exists. We've never seen them, only had "their" messages relayed through Natalie. It also doesn't make much sense that the board of a major megacorp would be personally corresponding with relatively low-level employees, even ones in a special project like this.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:44 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
2. I don't think the Board exists. We've never seen them, only had "their" messages relayed through Natalie. It also doesn't make much sense that the board of a major megacorp would be personally corresponding with relatively low-level employees, even ones in a special project like this.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:44 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Also, there's no "Salt's Neck" in Apple Maps, Wikipedia, or Open Street Maps.
Yet.
posted by Pronoiac at 12:46 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Yet.
posted by Pronoiac at 12:46 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
I also thought the writing in this episode was kind of weak:
1. Mark purposefully drives way out to the middle of nowhere to test his eye-image thing...and somehow Rehgabi just finds him there? How? Was that building he was in front of shown previously as her home or base of operations or something?
2. Cobel is waiting in the parking lot for Helena. Helena's driver has been there and has seen Cobel, but Helena seems surprised that Cobel is there when she comes out yet walks over to speak with her anyway. Lumon let the daughter of the CEO go alone to meet an angry, disgruntled employee without even alerting Helena to her presence? It doesn't really make sense.
3. I didn't like how they just glossed over Rehgabi knowing about his wife being alive. She said something like, "We were interrupted" but no, Mark should have been furious that she never mentioned that.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:53 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
1. Mark purposefully drives way out to the middle of nowhere to test his eye-image thing...and somehow Rehgabi just finds him there? How? Was that building he was in front of shown previously as her home or base of operations or something?
2. Cobel is waiting in the parking lot for Helena. Helena's driver has been there and has seen Cobel, but Helena seems surprised that Cobel is there when she comes out yet walks over to speak with her anyway. Lumon let the daughter of the CEO go alone to meet an angry, disgruntled employee without even alerting Helena to her presence? It doesn't really make sense.
3. I didn't like how they just glossed over Rehgabi knowing about his wife being alive. She said something like, "We were interrupted" but no, Mark should have been furious that she never mentioned that.
posted by star gentle uterus at 12:53 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
he shows her his drawing book and says that he's drawn a picture of Burt every day since he left.
He said "I'd draw one every day I couldn't see him." which is not quite the same thing: were there a lot of days inbetween their various visits and meetings?
Still though, that's a lot of Burts.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:54 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
He said "I'd draw one every day I couldn't see him." which is not quite the same thing: were there a lot of days inbetween their various visits and meetings?
Still though, that's a lot of Burts.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:54 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
1. Mark purposefully drives way out to the middle of nowhere to test his eye-image thing...and somehow Rehgabi just finds him there? How? Was that building he was in front of shown previously as her home or base of operations or something?
I think those were the buildings, but as you point out, that's also the last place whats his name from security went before he went missing. If he updated anyone about that, you'd think Lumon would have it under surveillance.
2. Cobel is waiting in the parking lot for Helena. Helena's driver has been there and has seen Cobel, but Helena seems surprised that Cobel is there when she comes out yet walks over to speak with her anyway. Lumon let the daughter of the CEO go alone to meet an angry, disgruntled employee without even alerting Helena to her presence? It doesn't really make sense.
We don't really know Helena's status with Lumon at the moment, tbh. Her dad may have made a general order of "fix everything" regardless of the risk. Likewise, while Cobel turned down the offer of a "promotion," I don't think it triggered any sirens that she was a physical threat. The whole "let's reset the conversation" aspect was kind of creepy, so I felt like Helena had or felt like she had all the power in that situation.
3. I didn't like how they just glossed over Rehgabi knowing about his wife being alive. She said something like, "We were interrupted" but no, Mark should have been furious that she never mentioned that.
I mean, he was, but then it went 0 to 60 to she can help him get her out through reintegration and off he went.
posted by Atreides at 1:08 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
I think those were the buildings, but as you point out, that's also the last place whats his name from security went before he went missing. If he updated anyone about that, you'd think Lumon would have it under surveillance.
2. Cobel is waiting in the parking lot for Helena. Helena's driver has been there and has seen Cobel, but Helena seems surprised that Cobel is there when she comes out yet walks over to speak with her anyway. Lumon let the daughter of the CEO go alone to meet an angry, disgruntled employee without even alerting Helena to her presence? It doesn't really make sense.
We don't really know Helena's status with Lumon at the moment, tbh. Her dad may have made a general order of "fix everything" regardless of the risk. Likewise, while Cobel turned down the offer of a "promotion," I don't think it triggered any sirens that she was a physical threat. The whole "let's reset the conversation" aspect was kind of creepy, so I felt like Helena had or felt like she had all the power in that situation.
3. I didn't like how they just glossed over Rehgabi knowing about his wife being alive. She said something like, "We were interrupted" but no, Mark should have been furious that she never mentioned that.
I mean, he was, but then it went 0 to 60 to she can help him get her out through reintegration and off he went.
posted by Atreides at 1:08 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
I never have anything to add to these threads (love all of your amazing insights and questions!) but just wanted to say I'm so happy to see Merritt Wever as Dylan's wife!
posted by ellieBOA at 2:18 PM on January 31 [11 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 2:18 PM on January 31 [11 favorites]
What a compelling episode. At the end of each scene I found myself wishing it would go on longer, only to get equally wrapped up in the next one.
I just love Merritt Wever and Gwendolyn Christie so much. It seems to be a running theme where prestige shows add new cast members in the second season that feel hand picked to make sure I--like, me, specifically--come back to watch.
Merritt Wever in particular was just so beautifully empathetic as Gretchen. Yes, it's clearly a ploy to keep Dylan G. in line, but because of what we saw last week, we know that THIS, unlike most of Lumen's incentives, is not bullshit. She actually is grateful, for both practical and emotional reasons, to innie Dylan for holding down their family.
I kind of hope we see that Ricken, though perhaps by nature unable not to be flattered by Lumen's interest in his book, is actually hoping to find a way use his Innie Edition as a way to pass a coded message to the severed floor. When you think about it, if that's really what they're planning to do, that's a huge potential weak point in their security.
Is Ms. Casey being "reset"?
Last week or the week before, I mentioned that I do hope the answer to the central mystery has big enough differences from the conceit of Get Out. I also hope it's a little different from Janet in the Good Place as well :) Seriously though--jumping right into Mark reintegrating in episode 3 of the season is very The Good Place pacing, in a good way.
posted by lampoil at 2:44 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
I just love Merritt Wever and Gwendolyn Christie so much. It seems to be a running theme where prestige shows add new cast members in the second season that feel hand picked to make sure I--like, me, specifically--come back to watch.
Merritt Wever in particular was just so beautifully empathetic as Gretchen. Yes, it's clearly a ploy to keep Dylan G. in line, but because of what we saw last week, we know that THIS, unlike most of Lumen's incentives, is not bullshit. She actually is grateful, for both practical and emotional reasons, to innie Dylan for holding down their family.
I kind of hope we see that Ricken, though perhaps by nature unable not to be flattered by Lumen's interest in his book, is actually hoping to find a way use his Innie Edition as a way to pass a coded message to the severed floor. When you think about it, if that's really what they're planning to do, that's a huge potential weak point in their security.
Is Ms. Casey being "reset"?
Last week or the week before, I mentioned that I do hope the answer to the central mystery has big enough differences from the conceit of Get Out. I also hope it's a little different from Janet in the Good Place as well :) Seriously though--jumping right into Mark reintegrating in episode 3 of the season is very The Good Place pacing, in a good way.
posted by lampoil at 2:44 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
The long and awkward hallway wait-do-we-kiss-now scene: that felt like it was Helena to me. The Helly we knew in S1 would have had no patience for that kind of dithering.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:48 PM on January 31 [9 favorites]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:48 PM on January 31 [9 favorites]
He said "I'd draw one every day I couldn't see him." which is not quite the same thing
Ahhhhh yes. Thanks.
posted by torticat at 3:04 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
Ahhhhh yes. Thanks.
posted by torticat at 3:04 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
I don't think the Board exists.
Natalie and the box with audio static remind me of "management" (aka "the fourth floor") in Counterpart, which also only communicated (possibly across parallel universes) via someone wearing headphones and a very odd camera/radio setup.
Mark's LED wrist watch and Rehgabi's analog CRT oscilloscopes with Nixie tubes are definitely keeping with the 80s aesthetic. Folks use modern cellphones, but so much of the tech is very retro.
And does Helena ride in the Morpheus' 1965 Lincoln Contenental? Or does this mean that Lumon is helping the machines create The Matrix? (Lumon also had a Unimog parked in the lot, which might indicate an X-Files cross over)
posted by autopilot at 3:15 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
Natalie and the box with audio static remind me of "management" (aka "the fourth floor") in Counterpart, which also only communicated (possibly across parallel universes) via someone wearing headphones and a very odd camera/radio setup.
Mark's LED wrist watch and Rehgabi's analog CRT oscilloscopes with Nixie tubes are definitely keeping with the 80s aesthetic. Folks use modern cellphones, but so much of the tech is very retro.
And does Helena ride in the Morpheus' 1965 Lincoln Contenental? Or does this mean that Lumon is helping the machines create The Matrix? (Lumon also had a Unimog parked in the lot, which might indicate an X-Files cross over)
posted by autopilot at 3:15 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
The long and awkward hallway wait-do-we-kiss-now scene: that felt like it was Helena to me. The Helly we knew in S1 would have had no patience for that kind of dithering.
I'm so undecided on that! I flip between thinking it means it's Helena for sure and then thinking it's the real Helly R but she's holding back because now they both know Mark is married, albeit in a Schrödinger sort of way.
posted by mochapickle at 3:38 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
I'm so undecided on that! I flip between thinking it means it's Helena for sure and then thinking it's the real Helly R but she's holding back because now they both know Mark is married, albeit in a Schrödinger sort of way.
posted by mochapickle at 3:38 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
I think the board is going to be the stored personalities of dead Eagans, and they’re looking to stuff them back into severed bodies via the cold harbour project.
Also, from a narrative perspective it makes sense to have Milcheck flip, and go from a true believer to Mark S’s side, and for Cobel to somehow end up in charge of the severed floor again. She’s crazy and angry about… something? For her to be in charge at the end of the season really turns the vibe from “something weird is happening” to “this place is hell now”.
Finally, if somebody doesn’t end up having a pouch I’m going to be very disappointed.
posted by The River Ivel at 5:14 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
Also, from a narrative perspective it makes sense to have Milcheck flip, and go from a true believer to Mark S’s side, and for Cobel to somehow end up in charge of the severed floor again. She’s crazy and angry about… something? For her to be in charge at the end of the season really turns the vibe from “something weird is happening” to “this place is hell now”.
Finally, if somebody doesn’t end up having a pouch I’m going to be very disappointed.
posted by The River Ivel at 5:14 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
I'm almost entirely loving this season so far, but there's one big thing that doesn't entirely make sense to me.
Milchick told Mark in episode 1 that he (and therefore, the rest of the MDR team) had been gone for 5 months. And we find out in episode 2 that that's a lie: there's only about 48 hours between the "overtime" incident and Mark being brought back to meet his new team. The 5 month timeline allows for Milchick's fabricated story about the supposed results of the MDR uprising.
If it were just the MDR team, Lumon would be probably be able to keep up that deception, because they have complete control over what information the innies can access. But wouldn't it fall apart as soon MDR talks to somebody else, such as Optics & Design? Like, as soon as Irving starts talking to Felicia about Burt, he's going to realize that she hasn't actually experienced 5 months passing since Burt's retirement.
Hopefully there's an explanation for this that's better than just "Lumon assumed they would never compare notes, and then they never did", because that would be really unsatisfying. Or did I misunderstand something?
posted by teraflop at 6:40 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
Milchick told Mark in episode 1 that he (and therefore, the rest of the MDR team) had been gone for 5 months. And we find out in episode 2 that that's a lie: there's only about 48 hours between the "overtime" incident and Mark being brought back to meet his new team. The 5 month timeline allows for Milchick's fabricated story about the supposed results of the MDR uprising.
If it were just the MDR team, Lumon would be probably be able to keep up that deception, because they have complete control over what information the innies can access. But wouldn't it fall apart as soon MDR talks to somebody else, such as Optics & Design? Like, as soon as Irving starts talking to Felicia about Burt, he's going to realize that she hasn't actually experienced 5 months passing since Burt's retirement.
Hopefully there's an explanation for this that's better than just "Lumon assumed they would never compare notes, and then they never did", because that would be really unsatisfying. Or did I misunderstand something?
posted by teraflop at 6:40 PM on January 31 [4 favorites]
The long and awkward hallway wait-do-we-kiss-now scene: that felt like it was Helena to me. The Helly we knew in S1 would have had no patience for that kind of dithering.
Helena also seems pretty decisive, though.
On a completely random note, I'm hoping that featuring the Stone Roses' 'Love Spreads' is a hint that someone (besides Devon) is someone's sister. (We don't need 'Eminence Front' to know that it's a put-on. A put-on. A put-on.)
posted by mookieproof at 6:46 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
Helena also seems pretty decisive, though.
On a completely random note, I'm hoping that featuring the Stone Roses' 'Love Spreads' is a hint that someone (besides Devon) is someone's sister. (We don't need 'Eminence Front' to know that it's a put-on. A put-on. A put-on.)
posted by mookieproof at 6:46 PM on January 31 [3 favorites]
teraflop: "But wouldn't it fall apart as soon MDR talks to somebody else, such as Optics & Design? Like, as soon as Irving starts talking to Felicia about Burt, he's going to realize that she hasn't actually experienced 5 months passing since Burt's retirement."
My takeaway — which might've been wrong; don't remember the actual wording used — was that they were told all severed employee activity had been stopped for five months, in which case there wouldn't be a ~100 day discrepancy to resolve between individual severed employees.
tzikeh: "I got the sense that that was two Black people trying to determine if the other found the blackface paintings as awful as they did or not."
We had a deal, Kyle: "Natalie's smile is so unnerving; it feels very much like a mask that she's wearing, that she knows that they're always being watched by the Board […] Yeah, I read that scene as them both being quietly horrified by the blackface paintings but being unable to express it directly."
Man, maybe I'm the only one not willing to give Natalie the benefit of the doubt? I definitely got that Milchick was low-key horrified and was fishing for recognition and/or sympathy from Natalie, but all I got from her was unbridled pride and exuberance.
It's possible that Natalie feels the same way and just wears her mask so well that there are no cracks for her true feelings to be seen through. But Natalie creeps me out so much precisely because I honestly believe she allows no distance between herself and her company.
(It's like when you have an all-hands and one person you've never met from another office is emceeing the whole thing and is waaaaaay too into it? And talks about how he'd been looking forward to this for weeks and you 100% believe him and that scares the shit out of you?)
star gentle uterus: "I don't think the Board exists. We've never seen them, only had "their" messages relayed through Natalie. It also doesn't make much sense that the board of a major megacorp would be personally corresponding with relatively low-level employees, even ones in a special project like this."
I joked to my partner that I was low-key waiting for a shot of a conference room with a goat in every seat, but what we actually get will probably somehow be stranger than that.
posted by savetheclocktower at 8:46 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
My takeaway — which might've been wrong; don't remember the actual wording used — was that they were told all severed employee activity had been stopped for five months, in which case there wouldn't be a ~100 day discrepancy to resolve between individual severed employees.
tzikeh: "I got the sense that that was two Black people trying to determine if the other found the blackface paintings as awful as they did or not."
We had a deal, Kyle: "Natalie's smile is so unnerving; it feels very much like a mask that she's wearing, that she knows that they're always being watched by the Board […] Yeah, I read that scene as them both being quietly horrified by the blackface paintings but being unable to express it directly."
Man, maybe I'm the only one not willing to give Natalie the benefit of the doubt? I definitely got that Milchick was low-key horrified and was fishing for recognition and/or sympathy from Natalie, but all I got from her was unbridled pride and exuberance.
It's possible that Natalie feels the same way and just wears her mask so well that there are no cracks for her true feelings to be seen through. But Natalie creeps me out so much precisely because I honestly believe she allows no distance between herself and her company.
(It's like when you have an all-hands and one person you've never met from another office is emceeing the whole thing and is waaaaaay too into it? And talks about how he'd been looking forward to this for weeks and you 100% believe him and that scares the shit out of you?)
star gentle uterus: "I don't think the Board exists. We've never seen them, only had "their" messages relayed through Natalie. It also doesn't make much sense that the board of a major megacorp would be personally corresponding with relatively low-level employees, even ones in a special project like this."
I joked to my partner that I was low-key waiting for a shot of a conference room with a goat in every seat, but what we actually get will probably somehow be stranger than that.
posted by savetheclocktower at 8:46 PM on January 31 [5 favorites]
On the podcast Ben Stiller and Adam Scott talked about the theory that the goats are the board and robustly denied it.
(There really is a fan theory for everything now.)
posted by simonw at 9:04 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
(There really is a fan theory for everything now.)
posted by simonw at 9:04 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
Man, maybe I'm the only one not willing to give Natalie the benefit of the doubt?
I mean, she literally looked like she was going to cry, or like somebody trapped and desperate, in flashes at least, behind that terrible smile. She can be evil and also tortured/aware of certain terrible things that wound her and Seth at the same time, you know? I though that was some amazing acting.
posted by destructive cactus at 9:43 PM on January 31 [14 favorites]
I mean, she literally looked like she was going to cry, or like somebody trapped and desperate, in flashes at least, behind that terrible smile. She can be evil and also tortured/aware of certain terrible things that wound her and Seth at the same time, you know? I though that was some amazing acting.
posted by destructive cactus at 9:43 PM on January 31 [14 favorites]
What is that sound we hear when the Board intercom is on? I used to think it sounded like a faint death rattle, but it also kind of sounds like the end of a cassette tape or a film reel that clicks and flaps.
posted by mochapickle at 10:03 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
posted by mochapickle at 10:03 PM on January 31 [1 favorite]
I don't think the Board exists. We've never seen them, only had "their" messages relayed through Natalie
When I re-watched season 1, I was using noise-canceling headphones and in one of the scenes with the board I could hear them talking to Natalie. You can’t tell what they are actually saying (muffled, low tones), but there is a presence there. I still think it’s an open question if they are always there when Natalie says they are and if she is relaying what they are saying accurately.
posted by mikepop at 10:06 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
When I re-watched season 1, I was using noise-canceling headphones and in one of the scenes with the board I could hear them talking to Natalie. You can’t tell what they are actually saying (muffled, low tones), but there is a presence there. I still think it’s an open question if they are always there when Natalie says they are and if she is relaying what they are saying accurately.
posted by mikepop at 10:06 PM on January 31 [2 favorites]
I kind of said it last week and I will state it definitively now: I really hope the goats are never fully explained.
posted by thecaddy at 10:40 PM on January 31 [12 favorites]
posted by thecaddy at 10:40 PM on January 31 [12 favorites]
Milkshake ("Seth") had four employees on the computer screen identified by id numbers. The fourth one was locked, the other three were not. It looked like he unclicked the lock icon before going to the other screen that had surveillance and source options. Was he re-enabling Helly R?
posted by autopilot at 3:31 AM on February 1 [1 favorite]
posted by autopilot at 3:31 AM on February 1 [1 favorite]
Reenabling Helly at this point would be risky, if we’re right that she’s been Helena since the OTC. From her perspective they haven’t yet swapped notes on their outie lives, and as soon as she opened her mouth to ask her teammates how it went and talk about her experience, everyone would realize they’d all been played.
posted by eirias at 4:13 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
posted by eirias at 4:13 AM on February 1 [3 favorites]
Am I wrong, or was this week’s credit sequence different from last week’s?
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:15 AM on February 1 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:15 AM on February 1 [1 favorite]
The You You Are
Wild theory: Hearing the title spoken aloud this episode and then later hearing "MDR" during the reintegration scene made me wonder if Devon's title is actually some sort of leaked reflection of a past experience with Lumon, and "UUR" is going to be part of a future revelation, with the clue in front of us the whole time.
posted by Inkslinger at 9:48 AM on February 1 [6 favorites]
Wild theory: Hearing the title spoken aloud this episode and then later hearing "MDR" during the reintegration scene made me wonder if Devon's title is actually some sort of leaked reflection of a past experience with Lumon, and "UUR" is going to be part of a future revelation, with the clue in front of us the whole time.
posted by Inkslinger at 9:48 AM on February 1 [6 favorites]
Exports and O&D: Now we know where all, or at least some, of the 3d printed objects go. One of them, a miniature barn, was in the baby goat room. So my theory is that O&D creates these simulacrum of real world things to train new minds on the Training Floor so that they have reference points for the real world, but only the reference points that Lumon wants them to have.
The fact that Mammalian Nurturables also thought MDR had pouches, and also assumed they were there to murder everyone, indicates that Lumon has spread these rumors to keep all of the other departments away from MDR, likely to keep MDR in the dark and uncontaminated by knowledge.
I am of the opinion that Cobel / Selvidge is a perma-innie. Perhaps she drove so far in hopes of going "out of range" and realized at that mile marker that it was a futile endeavor. I really want to know why she was so afraid of that security guy, though. And why her about-face seemed unexpected and troublesome to Helena.
Helena is definitely just walking the severed floor now, and since Mark is reintegrated his innie is going to realize that she's an Egan which will completely upend their relationship.
I really hope Milchick joins The Cause.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:07 AM on February 1
The fact that Mammalian Nurturables also thought MDR had pouches, and also assumed they were there to murder everyone, indicates that Lumon has spread these rumors to keep all of the other departments away from MDR, likely to keep MDR in the dark and uncontaminated by knowledge.
I am of the opinion that Cobel / Selvidge is a perma-innie. Perhaps she drove so far in hopes of going "out of range" and realized at that mile marker that it was a futile endeavor. I really want to know why she was so afraid of that security guy, though. And why her about-face seemed unexpected and troublesome to Helena.
Helena is definitely just walking the severed floor now, and since Mark is reintegrated his innie is going to realize that she's an Egan which will completely upend their relationship.
I really hope Milchick joins The Cause.
posted by grumpybear69 at 10:07 AM on February 1
Man, maybe I'm the only one not willing to give Natalie the benefit of the doubt? I definitely got that Milchick was low-key horrified and was fishing for recognition and/or sympathy from Natalie, but all I got from her was unbridled pride and exuberance.
Yeah this was my take too. Milchick looking for "this is fucked up, right?" agreement and Natalie just brimming with Kier Kool-Aid.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:18 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
IDK I saw the fear and revulsion and despair in her eyes, despite the smile.
posted by cooker girl at 12:47 PM on February 1 [10 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 12:47 PM on February 1 [10 favorites]
Yeah Natalie is working hard on that mask in that scene. You can see the corners of her smile twitch and it looks like she’s holding back tears.
I really want to know why she was so afraid of that security guy, though
I have two guesses:
1) Harmony grew up in the Keir cult and he was some kind of enforcer there
2) Cobel was/is a severed employee and he was the break room enforcer before she was a supervisor
Dylan’s wife is going to fall in love with his innie, isn’t she?
I also like that Mark is immediately jumping at the chance to see his wife again. I didn’t believe the comments that were made a couple of episodes ago that he would like go to his senator or the police.
Lumon is totally trying to buy off Devon and Ricken. Devon is not having it! “Mark is one of the sweetest employees on the severed floor” not necessarily a winning compliment for Devon, considering she has actually talked to Mark’s innie.
Also very glad that Mark didn’t blind himself but good idea!
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:26 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
I really want to know why she was so afraid of that security guy, though
I have two guesses:
1) Harmony grew up in the Keir cult and he was some kind of enforcer there
2) Cobel was/is a severed employee and he was the break room enforcer before she was a supervisor
Dylan’s wife is going to fall in love with his innie, isn’t she?
I also like that Mark is immediately jumping at the chance to see his wife again. I didn’t believe the comments that were made a couple of episodes ago that he would like go to his senator or the police.
Lumon is totally trying to buy off Devon and Ricken. Devon is not having it! “Mark is one of the sweetest employees on the severed floor” not necessarily a winning compliment for Devon, considering she has actually talked to Mark’s innie.
Also very glad that Mark didn’t blind himself but good idea!
posted by LizBoBiz at 1:26 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
I've been spending way too much time on Severance TikTok. My two favorite fan theories from there:
1. The man who was with Helena when Cobel noped out of there was Cobel's supposedly deceased husband.
2. Dylan's outtie had a brain injury from a car accident, hence his inability to hold down a job and general lack of usefulness. His wife may fall for Dylan's innie because something about the severance chip repairs the damage, and innie Dylan is much more like the man she fell in love with.
posted by simonw at 3:05 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
1. The man who was with Helena when Cobel noped out of there was Cobel's supposedly deceased husband.
2. Dylan's outtie had a brain injury from a car accident, hence his inability to hold down a job and general lack of usefulness. His wife may fall for Dylan's innie because something about the severance chip repairs the damage, and innie Dylan is much more like the man she fell in love with.
posted by simonw at 3:05 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
Am I wrong, or was this week’s credit sequence different from last week’s?Yeah! I guess to visually reflect the reintegration, the end credits are black text on white, instead of the usual white text on black.
posted by showbiz_liz
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:41 PM on February 1
Time will tell, but I suspect the turnaround at the Salt's Neck sign has more of a character-driven explanation than a technological one. My inkling is that Harmony had a messed-up childhood in a remote place, making her particularly vulnerable to to the Kier cult, and that she was heading home but hesitated.
posted by lampoil at 5:31 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
posted by lampoil at 5:31 PM on February 1 [2 favorites]
Cobel/Selvig had an unsettlingly out of place medical tube on the passenger seat as she took off in her white Rabbit. Of all the things to grab and keep within reach, well, it stands out. Is she responsible for pulling Gemma from the car wreck and taking care of her, no doubt at the behest of the Board, and is keeping some piece of evidence as blackmail? Or perhaps that was for something else. Still! It's odd. I wonder if there's a delightfully twisty mirroring of who she pretended to be as Selvig (maternity nurse, caring for new life) and what kind of nurse she really is (using her medical training - if she had any - for nefarious purposes). I love this show so much! Every actor stands out.
posted by but no cigar at 5:40 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
posted by but no cigar at 5:40 PM on February 1 [1 favorite]
The medical tube was on her Kier shrine at home, the one she wrecked in a rage. It has the name Charlotte Cobel and a birthdate from the 1940s, so I thought maybe it had belonged to Harmony’s mother and that’s why she saved it from the shrine and brought it with her.
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:22 PM on February 1 [12 favorites]
posted by hurdy gurdy girl at 6:22 PM on February 1 [12 favorites]
Man, maybe I'm the only one not willing to give Natalie the benefit of the doubt? I definitely got that Milchick was low-key horrified and was fishing for recognition and/or sympathy from Natalie, but all I got from her was unbridled pride and exuberance.
IDK I saw the fear and revulsion and despair in her eyes, despite the smile.
Agreed -- she really reminded me of Georgina from Get Out in the "Oh, no! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no." scene.
posted by tzikeh at 7:53 PM on February 1
IDK I saw the fear and revulsion and despair in her eyes, despite the smile.
Agreed -- she really reminded me of Georgina from Get Out in the "Oh, no! No, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no, no." scene.
posted by tzikeh at 7:53 PM on February 1
IDK I saw the fear and revulsion and despair in her eyes, despite the smile.
I think that if this was the case, we would have seen a little gesture of reciprocal sympathy from Milchick- a tiny smile, minute nod or "kind eyes". There's nothing whatsoever from him to indicate he's gotten anything from her.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:14 PM on February 1
I think that if this was the case, we would have seen a little gesture of reciprocal sympathy from Milchick- a tiny smile, minute nod or "kind eyes". There's nothing whatsoever from him to indicate he's gotten anything from her.
posted by oneirodynia at 9:14 PM on February 1
YouTuber DamiLee on the architecture of Severance
posted by otherchaz at 3:13 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]
posted by otherchaz at 3:13 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]
I’m really hung up on Cobel’s repeated declaration that Mark is “close to solving” Cold Harbor. Mark spends virtually no time working on the numeric stuff MDR work seems to be all about…so whatever’s making him “close” can’t have anything to do with all of that. So I’m wondering if what he’s close on is getting reintegrated by Reghabi…which is right where this episode ends.
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 5:01 AM on February 2
posted by Insert Clever Name Here at 5:01 AM on February 2
Wow, I hadn't seen anything by Dani Lee before and the production values on that YouTube video are incredible - she walks through a white Lumon corridor, sits at a Lumon MDR desk and even wakes up on the conference table - and that's just for visual interest to accompany the story she's telling about sick building syndrome!
posted by simonw at 6:58 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]
posted by simonw at 6:58 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]
Helena also seems pretty decisive, though.
what was interesting about that scene to me is that Helly/Helena doesn't seem "indecisive" exactly -- she's mostly just standing there, it's Mark who conveys all the eagerness and awkwardness and confusion. it's like she literally does not possess the body language to engage with what's going on. much more "fully inculcated cult member" than "awkward lovebird". of course it's an interesting question how much of that lack of understanding would or could transfer to Helly...
love that we're diving head-first into Mark's reintegration. rather than spend time figuring out how to make the characters debate the queasy morality of the central premise, we move rapidly into observing the impacts of the moral quandary in practice. such a great way for the show to simultaneously deepen its lore and its thematic resonance without needing to get didactic or any less weird about it.
has anyone speculated on the possibility that Miss Huang is a young Gemma clone? I might just have too many goats on the brain
(not-insightful thoughts: Gwendolin Christie brings such an incredibly weird energy here, even for this show, and I hope we're not done with that character. meanwhile, Rickon remains my favorite of this show's absurd creations; responding to someone calling his work insightful with "that's what I was going for!" is such a perfect, hysterical encapsulation of his whole deal.)
posted by Kybard at 7:24 AM on February 2 [2 favorites]
what was interesting about that scene to me is that Helly/Helena doesn't seem "indecisive" exactly -- she's mostly just standing there, it's Mark who conveys all the eagerness and awkwardness and confusion. it's like she literally does not possess the body language to engage with what's going on. much more "fully inculcated cult member" than "awkward lovebird". of course it's an interesting question how much of that lack of understanding would or could transfer to Helly...
love that we're diving head-first into Mark's reintegration. rather than spend time figuring out how to make the characters debate the queasy morality of the central premise, we move rapidly into observing the impacts of the moral quandary in practice. such a great way for the show to simultaneously deepen its lore and its thematic resonance without needing to get didactic or any less weird about it.
has anyone speculated on the possibility that Miss Huang is a young Gemma clone? I might just have too many goats on the brain
(not-insightful thoughts: Gwendolin Christie brings such an incredibly weird energy here, even for this show, and I hope we're not done with that character. meanwhile, Rickon remains my favorite of this show's absurd creations; responding to someone calling his work insightful with "that's what I was going for!" is such a perfect, hysterical encapsulation of his whole deal.)
posted by Kybard at 7:24 AM on February 2 [2 favorites]
I think Metafilter is the right place to say — I feel like I know some of these people. Like the kind of weird some of them are would not be out of place in the Boston nerd burbs. It really hit me with Gretchen especially. I don’t ever really feel this way about other TV.
posted by eirias at 8:06 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]
posted by eirias at 8:06 AM on February 2 [1 favorite]
I don't think the Board exists. We've never seen them, only had "their" messages relayed through Natalie.
We did hear from the board in season 1, episode 8:
Cobel: Oh, fuck off, Natalie! Is the Board even there?
The Board: Yes.
posted by Pendragon at 8:53 AM on February 2 [5 favorites]
We did hear from the board in season 1, episode 8:
Cobel: Oh, fuck off, Natalie! Is the Board even there?
The Board: Yes.
posted by Pendragon at 8:53 AM on February 2 [5 favorites]
There's nothing whatsoever from him to indicate he's gotten anything from her.
I disagree. I definitely got the vibe from him that he knew she was sick about it. Again, it was the eyes.
posted by cooker girl at 9:26 AM on February 2 [3 favorites]
I disagree. I definitely got the vibe from him that he knew she was sick about it. Again, it was the eyes.
posted by cooker girl at 9:26 AM on February 2 [3 favorites]
My out-there theory is that Helena's father is the original, implanted, Kier Eagan (or all of the past Eagen generations) or the whole Lumon cult THINKS he is, and that's the board. Or, maybe they don't quite have that tech, but maybe they Clockwork Orange style send the latest Eagan (as an innie?) through the whole mythologized upbringing of the original Kier. On the severed floor, they have a replica of his house; maybe they have a replica of his entire life? That might explain the goats, as well.
If we add in the 'a cure for mankind' slogan, the possibility that MDR's work is based on the four humors or temperaments, and how the entire Lumon cult tries to live like their paradigm Kier, is this so far-fetched? Could this also be why they want every person to be severed, so they can create these 'properly-nurtured/programmed' personas?
I don't think we really have the evidence for all of this, and I want to stress that this might just be what Lumon believes, rather than the truth - but there's a lot of evidence that sort of lines up (even 'fetid moppet!').
I don't really like these out-there theories but I figured I'd post this so I could look back in the future and see how wrong I was, haha.
posted by destructive cactus at 12:04 PM on February 2 [1 favorite]
If we add in the 'a cure for mankind' slogan, the possibility that MDR's work is based on the four humors or temperaments, and how the entire Lumon cult tries to live like their paradigm Kier, is this so far-fetched? Could this also be why they want every person to be severed, so they can create these 'properly-nurtured/programmed' personas?
I don't think we really have the evidence for all of this, and I want to stress that this might just be what Lumon believes, rather than the truth - but there's a lot of evidence that sort of lines up (even 'fetid moppet!').
I don't really like these out-there theories but I figured I'd post this so I could look back in the future and see how wrong I was, haha.
posted by destructive cactus at 12:04 PM on February 2 [1 favorite]
>Yeah! I guess to visually reflect the reintegration, the end credits are black text on white, instead of the usual white text on black.
I thought this was a reference to the after-image burn-in plot device.
In that reading it functions as a meta way to highlight all the people who make the show.
posted by sylvanshine at 5:40 PM on February 2
I thought this was a reference to the after-image burn-in plot device.
In that reading it functions as a meta way to highlight all the people who make the show.
posted by sylvanshine at 5:40 PM on February 2
If we add in the 'a cure for mankind' slogan,
Which... does anyone else get the shivers from that slogan? It always feels a little malevolent in a To Serve Man kind of way. A cure for cancer, a cure for mankind...?
posted by mochapickle at 7:55 PM on February 2 [5 favorites]
Which... does anyone else get the shivers from that slogan? It always feels a little malevolent in a To Serve Man kind of way. A cure for cancer, a cure for mankind...?
posted by mochapickle at 7:55 PM on February 2 [5 favorites]
Yeah, it sounds to me like "A cure for the illness-that-is-mankind".
posted by simonw at 8:58 PM on February 2 [2 favorites]
posted by simonw at 8:58 PM on February 2 [2 favorites]
My theory is that they're trying to resurrect Kier himself through this programme. I think Natalie's relationship with The Board is an earlier prototype form of this somehow.
Part of why Milchick was taken aback by the paintings (aside from the obvious) was that it suggested that Kier could live in his body some day.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 7:49 AM on February 3 [6 favorites]
Part of why Milchick was taken aback by the paintings (aside from the obvious) was that it suggested that Kier could live in his body some day.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 7:49 AM on February 3 [6 favorites]
With how Lumon uses language in unexpected ways -- i.e. "break room" is for breaking people's spirit -- "visitation" can mean meeting with another person....or a formal time to see a corpse.
I'm glad that at least so far it's the former, not the latter.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:11 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
I'm glad that at least so far it's the former, not the latter.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:11 AM on February 3 [2 favorites]
Part of why Milchick was taken aback by the paintings (aside from the obvious) was that it suggested that Kier could live in his body some day.
oh shiiiiiii-
posted by eirias at 8:27 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
oh shiiiiiii-
posted by eirias at 8:27 AM on February 3 [5 favorites]
I will note that there is a big difference between what severance appears to be and storing/downloading someone's entire consciousness into someone else's body. If the latter ends up being revealed down the line--which I agree is possible--they're going to have a big job to make it as monumental a reveal as it should be, because of how common it is as an element of fan theories. It almost seems like many viewers assume we already know they have that technology, but we don't, not yet.
posted by lampoil at 9:12 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
posted by lampoil at 9:12 AM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Does anyone other than destructive cactus have theories about the goats?
posted by kensington314 at 11:08 AM on February 3
posted by kensington314 at 11:08 AM on February 3
They may be subjects of experiments, which caused the handler to be upset in season 1 when they were "not ready". In S1E2 outside of Wellness, Irving looks at a painting of Kier with four figures (link to image on Reddit). Presuming these are the Tempers, then it could be that the goat is Woe (or Malice? could be any I guess. Goats do frolic). In any case, goats have been connected to Kier (and Lumon) a long time it seems!
posted by mikepop at 12:00 PM on February 3 [1 favorite]
posted by mikepop at 12:00 PM on February 3 [1 favorite]
The Four Tempers are as follows:
Woe (bride)
Frolic (fool)
Dread (old woman)
Malice (ram)
None of these are goats. But the sheep/goat dichotomy shows up in the New Testament a lot.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 1:38 PM on February 3
Woe (bride)
Frolic (fool)
Dread (old woman)
Malice (ram)
None of these are goats. But the sheep/goat dichotomy shows up in the New Testament a lot.
posted by rum-soaked space hobo at 1:38 PM on February 3
has anyone speculated on the possibility that Miss Huang is a young Gemma clone? I might just have too many goats on the brain
Cloning has specifically been debunked by the cast. Also Ms. Huang looks nothing like Gemma?
posted by oneirodynia at 1:56 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Cloning has specifically been debunked by the cast. Also Ms. Huang looks nothing like Gemma?
posted by oneirodynia at 1:56 PM on February 3 [4 favorites]
Did anyone watch Ben Stiller after the episode? I am pretty sure he said something about Milchick trying to read Natalie in regards to race.
posted by bluedaisy at 2:24 PM on February 3 [1 favorite]
posted by bluedaisy at 2:24 PM on February 3 [1 favorite]
Also: the Security Room is gone; replaced by the Family Visitation Suite.
in a sense, it's still the security room
posted by Sebmojo at 5:50 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
in a sense, it's still the security room
posted by Sebmojo at 5:50 PM on February 3 [5 favorites]
It occurred to me late but, why did Cobel go back? She had nothing more to offer in her demand to be head of the severed floor. She essentially just repeated the conversation between her and Helena from the boardroom(?). Did she think that after a day or so that they would realize they needed her? She should have had something more to offer when she went back. The whole thing seems a bit contrived now, and the purpose was to…show that Cobel is scared of a tall dude?
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:50 PM on February 7 [1 favorite]
posted by LizBoBiz at 12:50 PM on February 7 [1 favorite]
I didn’t read it as she was scared of that particular dude, but that she suddenly realized that she would be in physical danger if she went into the building — that they had other ways to deal with people who knew too much than just offer them fake promotions. To me the guy was just there to add more menace to the atmosphere, that he represented the threat of force that Helena could wield.
posted by antinomia at 2:47 PM on February 7
posted by antinomia at 2:47 PM on February 7
She should have had something more to offer when she went back.
I still think her indecisiveness here is driven by an older form of severance. She wakes up, sees her inner self on the way to Salt's Neck with that weird memento in hand and deduces she ran away. The innie negotiated last episode, this episode her outie negotiates, and puts a personal spin on it: what brings her back is a personal resentment that nepotism runs the business rather than expertise, loyalty, or even just effort. She has nothing more to offer in part because she has no idea what was already discussed.
As for why she turned around again? Maybe she was intimidated by the heavy. Or maybe she was bluffing, isn't prepared to speak to the board, and panicked when Helena called the bluff. Or maybe she got close enough to the building to flip personalities again, didn't see what she expected and bolted.
posted by pwnguin at 11:43 PM on February 7
I still think her indecisiveness here is driven by an older form of severance. She wakes up, sees her inner self on the way to Salt's Neck with that weird memento in hand and deduces she ran away. The innie negotiated last episode, this episode her outie negotiates, and puts a personal spin on it: what brings her back is a personal resentment that nepotism runs the business rather than expertise, loyalty, or even just effort. She has nothing more to offer in part because she has no idea what was already discussed.
As for why she turned around again? Maybe she was intimidated by the heavy. Or maybe she was bluffing, isn't prepared to speak to the board, and panicked when Helena called the bluff. Or maybe she got close enough to the building to flip personalities again, didn't see what she expected and bolted.
posted by pwnguin at 11:43 PM on February 7
All of these years of John Turturro playing prickly, irascible, and intense, I had no idea what we have been missing until we saw him play fragile and sensitive.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:00 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:00 AM on February 8 [2 favorites]
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I love that we're getting answers to so many questions that the last season set up - we learned more about the goats! And we finally saw Reghabi again.
I was not expecting reintegration to happen this early on. Mark saying "yes" straight away - right after learning about Gemma - was really moving.
Dylan: "He dumb? He a dick?"
The whole dynamic of Dylan meeting his outie's wife was so weird and uncomfortable. I'd like to know how Lumon talked them into it. Maybe they got a cash bonus?
In case anyone missed the significance of the belly check for pouches, in season one episode five Burt explains: posted by simonw at 10:29 PM on January 30 [12 favorites]