The White Lotus: Amor Fati
April 6, 2025 7:44 PM - Season 3, Episode 8 - Subscribe
On their last night in paradise, Laurie, Jaclyn, and Kate are forced to reckon with the changes in their decades-long friendship. Belinda and Zion negotiate a deal that could secure her future. Gaitok shares his plans with a disappointed Mook. Timothy comes up with a shocking plan for his family.
It's too early for me to have a full take on the episode. Gotta let it percolate. But I did want to say that I thought Laurie's speech to her friends was fantastic. Seemed like something that in lesser hands, both in the writing and the acting, it wouldn't have landed like it did.
I love that right when the episode ended luazinha said that she reeally wants to a spin-off series of the Ratliffes trying to make it through life without money. Like Schitt's Creek but less likeable!
posted by umbú at 7:57 PM on April 6 [4 favorites]
I love that right when the episode ended luazinha said that she reeally wants to a spin-off series of the Ratliffes trying to make it through life without money. Like Schitt's Creek but less likeable!
posted by umbú at 7:57 PM on April 6 [4 favorites]
Also *chef's kiss* for the tags.
posted by umbú at 7:58 PM on April 6 [5 favorites]
posted by umbú at 7:58 PM on April 6 [5 favorites]
I felt like some people were just like suddenly 180 degree versions of themselves tonight One person in particular. I don't know. I didn't love it.
posted by kbanas at 8:06 PM on April 6 [8 favorites]
posted by kbanas at 8:06 PM on April 6 [8 favorites]
Greg gets away again? Boooo.
posted by jquinby at 8:21 PM on April 6 [3 favorites]
posted by jquinby at 8:21 PM on April 6 [3 favorites]
I did not realize how much I wanted that family to survive and not go out in a murder-suicide, but that actually felt like a little bit of a happy ending.
posted by simonw at 9:57 PM on April 6 [1 favorite]
posted by simonw at 9:57 PM on April 6 [1 favorite]
Mixed feelings on how things panned out, but if I'm being honest, the characters in this season didn't resonate with me as much as those in the first two seasons.
posted by piyushnz at 10:01 PM on April 6 [4 favorites]
posted by piyushnz at 10:01 PM on April 6 [4 favorites]
The murders/deaths in the first two seasons were the culmination of escalating farcical black comedy. This was so different. No innocent characters like Chelsea had been killed off before. I hate Mike White for that! She was my favorite character.
Belinda and Gaitok, the other two innocents, were corrupted. That's fine and in keeping with the cynicism of the show. I was furious when it seemed Lochlan had died, because I also felt that TWL had steered clear of killing off young people, who have a chance of learning better. (I was glad when Lochy survived for that reason, but then furious at the expedient resurrection plot twist that went totally unexplained! You can't have a chekhov's gun that turns out to not even be a gun!)
posted by torticat at 10:25 PM on April 6 [4 favorites]
Belinda and Gaitok, the other two innocents, were corrupted. That's fine and in keeping with the cynicism of the show. I was furious when it seemed Lochlan had died, because I also felt that TWL had steered clear of killing off young people, who have a chance of learning better. (I was glad when Lochy survived for that reason, but then furious at the expedient resurrection plot twist that went totally unexplained! You can't have a chekhov's gun that turns out to not even be a gun!)
posted by torticat at 10:25 PM on April 6 [4 favorites]
All in all, I didn’t love this season, and in a lot of ways, I don’t think it stuck the landing this time.
I wonder what the “and some other stuff” Zion mentioned in the season premiere was. His success at getting Greg to fork over $5 million instead of $100,000 didn’t seem particularly well earned.
Saxon explaining his reading proficiency by saying “I went to Duke” made me laugh.
The drinking age in Thailand is 20 years old, or 18 if you are accompanied by someone who is over 20. Lachlan being steered away from the piña colada made sense since his father wanted him to survive, but the weirdness around underage drinking that wouldn’t have been underage where they were seemed unrealistic for a family like that.
posted by emelenjr at 3:27 AM on April 7 [2 favorites]
I wonder what the “and some other stuff” Zion mentioned in the season premiere was. His success at getting Greg to fork over $5 million instead of $100,000 didn’t seem particularly well earned.
Saxon explaining his reading proficiency by saying “I went to Duke” made me laugh.
The drinking age in Thailand is 20 years old, or 18 if you are accompanied by someone who is over 20. Lachlan being steered away from the piña colada made sense since his father wanted him to survive, but the weirdness around underage drinking that wouldn’t have been underage where they were seemed unrealistic for a family like that.
posted by emelenjr at 3:27 AM on April 7 [2 favorites]
Oh Belinda. I am so disappointed. In the end she treated Pornchai exactly the same as Tanya treated her. The look on his face was a mirror of Belinda's face at the end of Season 1 when she knew her dreams had been shattered.
posted by essexjan at 3:49 AM on April 7 [10 favorites]
posted by essexjan at 3:49 AM on April 7 [10 favorites]
I wasn't that disappointed with Belinda. She never deliberately led Pornchai on. Relationship-wise she told him, "My son is coming tomorrow, but for tonight..." Also the way she framed the "consent" thing made me feel like she was setting boundaries. although she was sweet about it. Pornchai came up with most of that starting a business thing all by himself. She never fucked with him the way Tanya fucked with her.
It's a bit complicated because Pornchai is a local, and Belinda is an American visitor. But I have found the space she occupies refreshing-- she is part guest, part employee.
Everyone online last week was saying she should hold out for more money. I didn't like the idea at the time, but having seen the way they did it, I'm good with it. I liked the way Zion convinced her and I though, you what, let the Black woman have that little slice of the pie, which is so much less than the other American characters have. Especially coming from that dipshit Greg. It's like a tiny little bit of reparations. It's kind of amusing in retrospect that Tanya thought Greg had something to do with Black Lives Matter.
posted by BibiRose at 5:59 AM on April 7 [7 favorites]
It's a bit complicated because Pornchai is a local, and Belinda is an American visitor. But I have found the space she occupies refreshing-- she is part guest, part employee.
Everyone online last week was saying she should hold out for more money. I didn't like the idea at the time, but having seen the way they did it, I'm good with it. I liked the way Zion convinced her and I though, you what, let the Black woman have that little slice of the pie, which is so much less than the other American characters have. Especially coming from that dipshit Greg. It's like a tiny little bit of reparations. It's kind of amusing in retrospect that Tanya thought Greg had something to do with Black Lives Matter.
posted by BibiRose at 5:59 AM on April 7 [7 favorites]
I was also uncomfortable as we got closer and closer to Timothy murdering everyone in his family but Lochlan, so I was pretty relieved when he had the last minute change of mind. The fact Lochlan was left out, and well, his own willingness to drink the smoothie earlier that day, all but sealed the fact that he was totally going to get a poisoned smoothie. That it happened because he's too lazy to clean out the blender from the night before had me gagging for other reasons. I get a sense that the Ratliffs are going to have a running joke in the future about Lochlan nearly dying from sour milk or something ridiculous.
But going toward his own near death experience, I was also relieved he didn't die, even though it kind of upset a running theory that those who seemed to have the least attachment to earthly things were most likely to die and "rejoin the ocean" so to speak. In Lochlan's case, he felt he was in water, but wasn't. Then, going to Chelsea, who while she was excited about what amounted to a marriage proposal from Rick, was shot and then received a watery burial. Her getting hit was definitely a blink and a miss it moment.
Who was the body that Zion bumped into in the beginning? I haven't had a chance to go back and look, but while the general manager fell into the water, I don't think he was shot? It had to be Rick or Chelsea. The decision to leave Zion's and Belinda's fate in the air at the very end, including showing two body bags at the airport, was kind of cheap.
I don't think Pornchai and Belinda were in the same space as Tanya and Belinda, either. Their conversation about starting something wasn't built on anything more than talk was it? I also felt the look Belinda cast back at Pornchai at the end seemed genuine? We'll see, I suppose!
I suppose Greg/Gary is our Agent Coulson of the White Lotus, a mysterious white guy who just happens to be involved in some way with everything going on. The confirmation at the end that he actually wanted to see Chloe have sex with another man did change an idea that it was some elaborate setup to kill both Saxon/Lochlan and Chloe in bed at the same time or something. Dude is just a creepy guy.
Referring back to the Ratliffs, big props to those who did pick up on Piper losing interest in her one year dream adventure at the temple last week. I missed it, but it was notable that as soon as she did so, and talked about wanting material things, her wardrobe seemed to step up and become flashier. I guess Victoria won out overall, except well, when she discovers everything is in the pits.
I like to think Saxon is on the road to becoming a better human thanks to Chelsea. Lochlan is totally going to Wake Forest, since he's a pleaser and can't make everyone happy with either UNC or Duke.
Rick shooting his dad was kinda predictable and how different the show would have gone if he'd gotten a few minutes of meditation. Was that a slam on the staff member? For all she said Rick meant a lot to her, she was "well, wait an hour." I don't know, given how his father behaved right up to the end, if Rick would have benefited having a father in his life at this stage.
The friends. I agree, Laurie's monologue at the end was probably the best thing to come out of their existence in the show. I still didn't like their inclusion and based on Gaitok's decision to yes, shoot someone in the back while they walk away carrying their dead girlfriend was horrible, he apparently drew the line at reporting Russian thieves who prey on the resort and its guests. I think with Gaitok, it was always going to be a matter of him letting go of who he was and becoming someone who will hurt others (Sorry Buddha), or dying because of his faith. He got a promotion (granted, there were two job openings thanks to Rick's crack shooting). He got Mook. But he stained his soul in the process.
I suppose the winners here are the Ratliffs for not dying, Belinda and Zion for getting the money, Gary until he bumps into someone else at the next resort, the friends who remained friends all along the way, and Frank, who gets back into the temple to restart his sobriety. This season was enjoyable after the slow burn, but not as good as the last two, in my opinion.
posted by Atreides at 8:02 AM on April 7 [4 favorites]
But going toward his own near death experience, I was also relieved he didn't die, even though it kind of upset a running theory that those who seemed to have the least attachment to earthly things were most likely to die and "rejoin the ocean" so to speak. In Lochlan's case, he felt he was in water, but wasn't. Then, going to Chelsea, who while she was excited about what amounted to a marriage proposal from Rick, was shot and then received a watery burial. Her getting hit was definitely a blink and a miss it moment.
Who was the body that Zion bumped into in the beginning? I haven't had a chance to go back and look, but while the general manager fell into the water, I don't think he was shot? It had to be Rick or Chelsea. The decision to leave Zion's and Belinda's fate in the air at the very end, including showing two body bags at the airport, was kind of cheap.
I don't think Pornchai and Belinda were in the same space as Tanya and Belinda, either. Their conversation about starting something wasn't built on anything more than talk was it? I also felt the look Belinda cast back at Pornchai at the end seemed genuine? We'll see, I suppose!
I suppose Greg/Gary is our Agent Coulson of the White Lotus, a mysterious white guy who just happens to be involved in some way with everything going on. The confirmation at the end that he actually wanted to see Chloe have sex with another man did change an idea that it was some elaborate setup to kill both Saxon/Lochlan and Chloe in bed at the same time or something. Dude is just a creepy guy.
Referring back to the Ratliffs, big props to those who did pick up on Piper losing interest in her one year dream adventure at the temple last week. I missed it, but it was notable that as soon as she did so, and talked about wanting material things, her wardrobe seemed to step up and become flashier. I guess Victoria won out overall, except well, when she discovers everything is in the pits.
I like to think Saxon is on the road to becoming a better human thanks to Chelsea. Lochlan is totally going to Wake Forest, since he's a pleaser and can't make everyone happy with either UNC or Duke.
Rick shooting his dad was kinda predictable and how different the show would have gone if he'd gotten a few minutes of meditation. Was that a slam on the staff member? For all she said Rick meant a lot to her, she was "well, wait an hour." I don't know, given how his father behaved right up to the end, if Rick would have benefited having a father in his life at this stage.
The friends. I agree, Laurie's monologue at the end was probably the best thing to come out of their existence in the show. I still didn't like their inclusion and based on Gaitok's decision to yes, shoot someone in the back while they walk away carrying their dead girlfriend was horrible, he apparently drew the line at reporting Russian thieves who prey on the resort and its guests. I think with Gaitok, it was always going to be a matter of him letting go of who he was and becoming someone who will hurt others (Sorry Buddha), or dying because of his faith. He got a promotion (granted, there were two job openings thanks to Rick's crack shooting). He got Mook. But he stained his soul in the process.
I suppose the winners here are the Ratliffs for not dying, Belinda and Zion for getting the money, Gary until he bumps into someone else at the next resort, the friends who remained friends all along the way, and Frank, who gets back into the temple to restart his sobriety. This season was enjoyable after the slow burn, but not as good as the last two, in my opinion.
posted by Atreides at 8:02 AM on April 7 [4 favorites]
Wasn't the body in the water one of the bodyguards? Rick shot and killed both of them; I thought one of them ended up in lagoon. Rick was also shown face up, floating at the very end.
Also, I 100% called Hollinger as the dad awhile back, so that was nice. Many in our house pooh-poohed the very notion.
torticat's comment above says it all for me - Parkey Posey notwithstanding, there didn't feel like nearly as much comedy this season as in the others. Tim carrying the family's impending ruin was probably too much - I think it might have been more interesting if they'd learned the truth on day 2 and spent the rest of the time at the resort dealing with it.
posted by jquinby at 8:24 AM on April 7 [2 favorites]
Also, I 100% called Hollinger as the dad awhile back, so that was nice. Many in our house pooh-poohed the very notion.
torticat's comment above says it all for me - Parkey Posey notwithstanding, there didn't feel like nearly as much comedy this season as in the others. Tim carrying the family's impending ruin was probably too much - I think it might have been more interesting if they'd learned the truth on day 2 and spent the rest of the time at the resort dealing with it.
posted by jquinby at 8:24 AM on April 7 [2 favorites]
The murders/deaths in the first two seasons were the culmination of escalating farcical black comedy.
Something I read elsewhere and agree with is that the previous two seasons, we gradually learned about what was going on beneath the facade of various characters. And often, there were tensions/contradictions that characters needed to resolve. Was Arnaud going to be able to hold it together or snap? Was Rachel going to accept her role as a trophy wife or continue to dream of a journalism career or even leave her douchey husband? Were Cameron and Daphne happy or miserable in their marriage? What was the wedge between Harper and Ethan? How would the comedic love triangle of the father, son, and sex worker resolve? etc. And, so much fun farce mixed in.
Whereas here, pretty much all the characters in the finale are the same people they were in episode one, with the exception of the three women - similar to others, Laurie's speech was the highlight of the season for me. Sure, there are slight changes - Tim gets up to the cliff edge of eliminating himself and his family and decides it's better to just face what's coming. Gaitok decides he will do what he needs to do to win Mook's affection. Belinda embraces an opportunity for wealth. None of those were particularly surprising though - Tim seemed more anguished than ready to act, Gaitok clearly was smitten, and Belinda was happy to instrumentalize Tanya's affection in Season 1.
Meanwhile, the whole Rick character didn't make much sense and felt rather cheap - Goggins did the best anyone could with the writing, but it was hard to believe that a professional criminal would be so sloppy, particularly in the last couple of episodes.
posted by coffeecat at 8:41 AM on April 7 [3 favorites]
Something I read elsewhere and agree with is that the previous two seasons, we gradually learned about what was going on beneath the facade of various characters. And often, there were tensions/contradictions that characters needed to resolve. Was Arnaud going to be able to hold it together or snap? Was Rachel going to accept her role as a trophy wife or continue to dream of a journalism career or even leave her douchey husband? Were Cameron and Daphne happy or miserable in their marriage? What was the wedge between Harper and Ethan? How would the comedic love triangle of the father, son, and sex worker resolve? etc. And, so much fun farce mixed in.
Whereas here, pretty much all the characters in the finale are the same people they were in episode one, with the exception of the three women - similar to others, Laurie's speech was the highlight of the season for me. Sure, there are slight changes - Tim gets up to the cliff edge of eliminating himself and his family and decides it's better to just face what's coming. Gaitok decides he will do what he needs to do to win Mook's affection. Belinda embraces an opportunity for wealth. None of those were particularly surprising though - Tim seemed more anguished than ready to act, Gaitok clearly was smitten, and Belinda was happy to instrumentalize Tanya's affection in Season 1.
Meanwhile, the whole Rick character didn't make much sense and felt rather cheap - Goggins did the best anyone could with the writing, but it was hard to believe that a professional criminal would be so sloppy, particularly in the last couple of episodes.
posted by coffeecat at 8:41 AM on April 7 [3 favorites]
Men will murder their own father before waiting an hour to go to therapy.
I don't like that Chelsea died either, but I also feel it was foreshadowed a lot by the talk about how they were soulmates with intertwined fates. Hope came very close to winning out, but in the end pain prevailed. Rick continuing to stay at the resort owned by the man whose life he threatened was some real idiot ball handling though. Chelsea seems to be primarily an accessory to his and Saxon's story, which is a bit disappointing.
I can't say I'm disappointed that there wasn't some connection between Greg's threesome proclivities and Franks threesome proclivities (after he apparently fell off the wagon), but I thought there would be something there.
Would have also liked some resolution to that weird tension between Kate and Victoria about the baby shower and a reveal that Zip. And Belinda had worked out their negotiation plan with Greg ahead of time instead of on the spot.
All in all, more tragic than tragicomic. Hard to feel one way about it when so many people died. I did find the journey very compelling to watch however.
posted by subocoyne at 8:55 AM on April 7 [7 favorites]
I don't like that Chelsea died either, but I also feel it was foreshadowed a lot by the talk about how they were soulmates with intertwined fates. Hope came very close to winning out, but in the end pain prevailed. Rick continuing to stay at the resort owned by the man whose life he threatened was some real idiot ball handling though. Chelsea seems to be primarily an accessory to his and Saxon's story, which is a bit disappointing.
I can't say I'm disappointed that there wasn't some connection between Greg's threesome proclivities and Franks threesome proclivities (after he apparently fell off the wagon), but I thought there would be something there.
Would have also liked some resolution to that weird tension between Kate and Victoria about the baby shower and a reveal that Zip. And Belinda had worked out their negotiation plan with Greg ahead of time instead of on the spot.
All in all, more tragic than tragicomic. Hard to feel one way about it when so many people died. I did find the journey very compelling to watch however.
posted by subocoyne at 8:55 AM on April 7 [7 favorites]
It felt like the theme this season was the tension between giving in to your worst impulses versus taking the high ground, and most people failed the test. Gaitok chose power (and love/beauty) over morality. Belinda chose money over honor. Piper chose comfort over deprivation. Rick chose aggression over peace. I'm not sure how the rest of the Ratliffs fit into the dichotomy -- I suppose there's something to be said for Tim going back to face the music versus killing his whole family (how cruel to plan to leave Lochlan alone!!) or running away, but I don't think he is meant to be the exemplar of making the right choice here. And the friends' journey also doesn't seem to fit so neatly, though I loved Laurie's speech and admired the way that she was able to take the others' attempt to gloss over everything that had happened and bring them back to honesty.
I agree with those who said that there was less humor this season, which was a shame! Parker Posey was fabulous and Chelsea had some funny moments too, but overall it was a lot more serious/darker.
posted by cider at 9:12 AM on April 7 [2 favorites]
I agree with those who said that there was less humor this season, which was a shame! Parker Posey was fabulous and Chelsea had some funny moments too, but overall it was a lot more serious/darker.
posted by cider at 9:12 AM on April 7 [2 favorites]
I'll admit, I was far more engaged in Timothy's on going "what do I do, who do I kill?" based on Jason Isaac's acting. There were a number of standout performances in this season, even if the writing wasn't really there. Speaking of which:
Rick continuing to stay at the resort owned by the man whose life he threatened was some real idiot ball handling though.
EXACTLY. This was probably the most forced conclusion of the show.
Chelsea, stating a few episodes to Rick that he was going to be the death of her, that bad things come in three, completely nailing her character's future.
posted by Atreides at 10:12 AM on April 7 [3 favorites]
Rick continuing to stay at the resort owned by the man whose life he threatened was some real idiot ball handling though.
EXACTLY. This was probably the most forced conclusion of the show.
Chelsea, stating a few episodes to Rick that he was going to be the death of her, that bad things come in three, completely nailing her character's future.
posted by Atreides at 10:12 AM on April 7 [3 favorites]
I'll admit, I was far more engaged in Timothy's on going "what do I do, who do I kill?" based on Jason Isaac's acting.
Agreed. There was a lot asked by the script of Jason Isaac and Walton Goggins' faces: no dialog, and just closeups of meaningful expressions. Isaacs made a lot more of it, so I was far more invested in Tim's story line. Most of the time I had no idea what Rick was thinking or feeling until he eventually ends up doing something (dumb).
posted by jetsetsc at 11:00 AM on April 7 [2 favorites]
Agreed. There was a lot asked by the script of Jason Isaac and Walton Goggins' faces: no dialog, and just closeups of meaningful expressions. Isaacs made a lot more of it, so I was far more invested in Tim's story line. Most of the time I had no idea what Rick was thinking or feeling until he eventually ends up doing something (dumb).
posted by jetsetsc at 11:00 AM on April 7 [2 favorites]
I'll just say that idiotic snake-related behavior notwithstanding, Rick was made out to be a fairly successful veteran of the "this and that" industry, so it really beggared belief that he would've gone back to the resort after his confrontation with Khun Jim. Honestly, his first action should've been to tell Chelsea to get out of there too. I would've appreciated a more coincidental circumstance leading to the final showdown.
And further, the idea that his actual father would respond both provocatively and ambiguously when faced with the accusation of having been the killer of same feels pretty unrealistic. That potential was apparent to me (and a lot of folks) since episode 1, but seemed almost too obvious a twist.
posted by Cogito at 11:18 AM on April 7 [5 favorites]
And further, the idea that his actual father would respond both provocatively and ambiguously when faced with the accusation of having been the killer of same feels pretty unrealistic. That potential was apparent to me (and a lot of folks) since episode 1, but seemed almost too obvious a twist.
posted by Cogito at 11:18 AM on April 7 [5 favorites]
I think my main issue with Tim's arc is that we got so little of Baseline Tim Ratliff at the beginning of the season; like half an episode before things started going sideways with him. And then he spent several episodes basically stuck in the same gear: drugged out haze and family annihilator ideation. So his "resolution" didn't really feel like one at all.
The overall arc of this season was the same as the others: people grasp for privilege and don't give it up once they have it. The Rick/Chelsea/Jim Hollinger greek tragedy was an entirely new theme for White Lotus.
Even when Laurie was pouring her heart out to Jaclyn and Kate about how happy she is for them in their lives, they couldn't muster a single supportive thing to say to her.
posted by dry white toast at 11:20 AM on April 7 [6 favorites]
The overall arc of this season was the same as the others: people grasp for privilege and don't give it up once they have it. The Rick/Chelsea/Jim Hollinger greek tragedy was an entirely new theme for White Lotus.
Even when Laurie was pouring her heart out to Jaclyn and Kate about how happy she is for them in their lives, they couldn't muster a single supportive thing to say to her.
posted by dry white toast at 11:20 AM on April 7 [6 favorites]
How the hell does this hotel still have any locations open at this point?
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 12:16 PM on April 7 [11 favorites]
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 12:16 PM on April 7 [11 favorites]
Money talks...or well, silences.
The overall arc of this season was the same as the others: people grasp for privilege and don't give it up once they have it. The Rick/Chelsea/Jim Hollinger greek tragedy was an entirely new theme for White Lotus.
I was muttering something something about Oedipus Rex as this all went down. Imperfect, but not too far off.
Even when Laurie was pouring her heart out to Jaclyn and Kate about how happy she is for them in their lives, they couldn't muster a single supportive thing to say to her.
Remember, Laurie was the one who originally stepped out to call Jaclyn out for her behavior. Jaclyn offered a non-apology, "I didn't know Valentin meant so much to you," which really wasn't the underlying issue. In a way, Laurie's speech about how great it was that Jaclyn had her beauty and Kate had her perfect family, had a weird undercurrent to it. Were they passive aggressive remarks? Jealous commentary framed as "positive" attributes? In essence, Laurie was basically stating that she was nothing without her friends, and we've seen how that dynamic works. It was a great moment, but on reflection I'm wondering what it really said about Laurie.
posted by Atreides at 12:45 PM on April 7
The overall arc of this season was the same as the others: people grasp for privilege and don't give it up once they have it. The Rick/Chelsea/Jim Hollinger greek tragedy was an entirely new theme for White Lotus.
I was muttering something something about Oedipus Rex as this all went down. Imperfect, but not too far off.
Even when Laurie was pouring her heart out to Jaclyn and Kate about how happy she is for them in their lives, they couldn't muster a single supportive thing to say to her.
Remember, Laurie was the one who originally stepped out to call Jaclyn out for her behavior. Jaclyn offered a non-apology, "I didn't know Valentin meant so much to you," which really wasn't the underlying issue. In a way, Laurie's speech about how great it was that Jaclyn had her beauty and Kate had her perfect family, had a weird undercurrent to it. Were they passive aggressive remarks? Jealous commentary framed as "positive" attributes? In essence, Laurie was basically stating that she was nothing without her friends, and we've seen how that dynamic works. It was a great moment, but on reflection I'm wondering what it really said about Laurie.
posted by Atreides at 12:45 PM on April 7
For me, the saddest part was the corruption of Giatok. Like many others in last week's thread, I expected he would shoot someone unintentionally and/or be shot himself. That he was able to focus, aim and kill in cold blood was tragic (sure, Rick was a killer, but he got shot in the back while trying to carry his dead girlfriend to "safety").
He got the promotion he decided he didn't want and the girl who didn't deserve him. Saddest move up the ladder.
posted by asnider at 1:49 PM on April 7 [5 favorites]
He got the promotion he decided he didn't want and the girl who didn't deserve him. Saddest move up the ladder.
posted by asnider at 1:49 PM on April 7 [5 favorites]
His success at getting Greg to fork over $5 million instead of $100,000 didn’t seem particularly well earned.
emelenjr - I think maybe because it wasn't Zion's success? It was more Belinda's, she's the one who stomped out of the room in order to really put the heat on. I was cheering! That victory was a long time coming for her.
Atreides:
I suppose the winners here are the Ratliffs for not dying
I guess. But that resolution didn't sit well with me AT ALL. Tim was a corrupt dude who, in spite of having been pretty damn lucky in life, had passed on little to his kids other than wealth, status, and a sense of entitlement. Over the course of the season he was also shown to be a liar and a coward. Ugh! he was just a nasty piece of work.
And this guy--THIS guy--gets to have a revelatory moment in the finale in which he finally recognizes that family and the time we have with the people we love is what really matters?? HE gets to reassure the rest of them that everything will be alright?! Like, guy, maybe come clean to your family before you start telling them how to feel about things? And NO, everything will not be alright, because you have fucked up everything you had to offer your family. And on top of that you're also now a would-be murderer who by all rights should be mourning the loss of a child you just killed.
If that was meant to be the point--that this family definitely won't be okay and will all suffer as a result of the dad's actions and on top of that will not ever even know how close he came to murdering all of them, then... okay, I guess? That doesn't feel very satisfying and also it doesn't really seem like what the show was saying anyway, what with Tim's evident change of heart/character & the way he was contemplating water drops by the end. I dunno, I guess I just reeeeeally needed to see Tim get a comeuppance and instead he weirdly got some kind of hero's journey.
Totally agree with those who have commented on the humor that both Parker Posey and Aimee Lee Wood brought to the show. Love them. (Actually I think that in each of its three seasons, the best thing TWL has had going for it has been its cast!)
posted by torticat at 4:00 PM on April 7 [2 favorites]
emelenjr - I think maybe because it wasn't Zion's success? It was more Belinda's, she's the one who stomped out of the room in order to really put the heat on. I was cheering! That victory was a long time coming for her.
Atreides:
I suppose the winners here are the Ratliffs for not dying
I guess. But that resolution didn't sit well with me AT ALL. Tim was a corrupt dude who, in spite of having been pretty damn lucky in life, had passed on little to his kids other than wealth, status, and a sense of entitlement. Over the course of the season he was also shown to be a liar and a coward. Ugh! he was just a nasty piece of work.
And this guy--THIS guy--gets to have a revelatory moment in the finale in which he finally recognizes that family and the time we have with the people we love is what really matters?? HE gets to reassure the rest of them that everything will be alright?! Like, guy, maybe come clean to your family before you start telling them how to feel about things? And NO, everything will not be alright, because you have fucked up everything you had to offer your family. And on top of that you're also now a would-be murderer who by all rights should be mourning the loss of a child you just killed.
If that was meant to be the point--that this family definitely won't be okay and will all suffer as a result of the dad's actions and on top of that will not ever even know how close he came to murdering all of them, then... okay, I guess? That doesn't feel very satisfying and also it doesn't really seem like what the show was saying anyway, what with Tim's evident change of heart/character & the way he was contemplating water drops by the end. I dunno, I guess I just reeeeeally needed to see Tim get a comeuppance and instead he weirdly got some kind of hero's journey.
Totally agree with those who have commented on the humor that both Parker Posey and Aimee Lee Wood brought to the show. Love them. (Actually I think that in each of its three seasons, the best thing TWL has had going for it has been its cast!)
posted by torticat at 4:00 PM on April 7 [2 favorites]
For me the key to the Laurie/Jaclyn/Kate scene is when Laurie says even though all their conversation is vapid it still feels deep warm and meaningful to her.
Because all of their dialogue is really really bad. None of them have any juice and all their drama is like middle school stuff. A mediocre teen drama would be embarrassed to have such nothingness, such a basic outline of some jealous friends, the most empty obligatory lines of dialogue and nothing else. The show is not strongly signaling that they are bad, but I've thought it was weird/annoying the whole season how just empty their scenes are.
The friends are just frozen, keeping up the game of this old skin-deep friendship. Laurie's little bit of real talk was powerful in contrast but her statement is she wants things back how they were where she's just happy to be included. Anyway this is how I have to get something out of it. Carrie Coon is one of my favorite actors but I didn't enjoy this slice of the show.
posted by fleacircus at 5:03 PM on April 7 [2 favorites]
Because all of their dialogue is really really bad. None of them have any juice and all their drama is like middle school stuff. A mediocre teen drama would be embarrassed to have such nothingness, such a basic outline of some jealous friends, the most empty obligatory lines of dialogue and nothing else. The show is not strongly signaling that they are bad, but I've thought it was weird/annoying the whole season how just empty their scenes are.
The friends are just frozen, keeping up the game of this old skin-deep friendship. Laurie's little bit of real talk was powerful in contrast but her statement is she wants things back how they were where she's just happy to be included. Anyway this is how I have to get something out of it. Carrie Coon is one of my favorite actors but I didn't enjoy this slice of the show.
posted by fleacircus at 5:03 PM on April 7 [2 favorites]
That really, really sucked.
None of it felt earned, and all the foreshadowing, all the montage of the whole season basically led to a big pile of nothing.
The three friends' resolution was especially nothing.
And the dad's moment of revelation with the water drops? Pffft.
Nothing.
posted by signal at 7:11 PM on April 7 [1 favorite]
None of it felt earned, and all the foreshadowing, all the montage of the whole season basically led to a big pile of nothing.
The three friends' resolution was especially nothing.
And the dad's moment of revelation with the water drops? Pffft.
Nothing.
posted by signal at 7:11 PM on April 7 [1 favorite]
There was so much I just didn't buy about that finale.
Tim snatches his family's glasses away in a panic and pours their contents down the sink, but can't be bothered to also rinse out the blender? And does this two minutes after his beloved son has been pouting about not getting his own pina colada? The fact that none of his family seemed to think there was anying remotely odd about that whole episode: "Dad's gone insane, but never mind, let's just have a glass of wine instead."
Rick's startling idiocy (the laughable movie scam, his return to the hotel), mixed with the fact that we're supposed to believe he's a ruthless, skilled and (at least somewhat) wealthy assassin. I hated the way they rushed through that whole "I am your father" stuff too. A daytime soap would have handled it better.
Belinda becoming an ice-cold blackmailer so soon after that exaggerated and comedic coughing fit at her son's first mention of $5m. Greg's willingness to give her the money, despite the fact that she really doesn't have anything concrete on him. It also struck me that Greg's genuine intelligence and ruthlessness would surely tell him she's likely to be back for more in a year or two.
Lachlan shrugging off his hand job for Saxon so casually as merely the actions of a "people pleaser". No-one's that dumb or so utterly unaware as to think it such a trivial matter.
Lachlan had a pretty serious reaction to the dregs of poison still in the blender. At least a couple of the other family members took a swallow or two from their own drinks, yet showed no ill effects whatsoever. What - they didn't even feel sick or suffer an upset stomach? Tim's weeks of guzzling tranquillisers seems to have been shrugged off with no consequences too.
That whole "just remind me what these fruits do again" scene. That was so heavy handed - and showed a disappointing lack of faith in viewers' intelligence. Seems to me that his exchange with the phone lady there would have made her at least a little concerned too. "Hmmm, one of the guests seems interested in the poison seeds. Nothing to worry about there, then."
The three friends. What was the point of them again?
The abrupt nature and instant totality of the minor characters' personality reversals. I'm thinking here of Saxon, Piper and Giatok. Also, the hotel's boss sees Giatok's hesitation in stopping the killer of her murdered husband, and yet then is willing to trust her life to him as her new bodyguard?
Some of this could have been addressed by seeding some of the finale's events more carefully in previous episodes. I means, it's not like those episodes were so packed with incident there was no room for this to be done.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:28 AM on April 8 [8 favorites]
Tim snatches his family's glasses away in a panic and pours their contents down the sink, but can't be bothered to also rinse out the blender? And does this two minutes after his beloved son has been pouting about not getting his own pina colada? The fact that none of his family seemed to think there was anying remotely odd about that whole episode: "Dad's gone insane, but never mind, let's just have a glass of wine instead."
Rick's startling idiocy (the laughable movie scam, his return to the hotel), mixed with the fact that we're supposed to believe he's a ruthless, skilled and (at least somewhat) wealthy assassin. I hated the way they rushed through that whole "I am your father" stuff too. A daytime soap would have handled it better.
Belinda becoming an ice-cold blackmailer so soon after that exaggerated and comedic coughing fit at her son's first mention of $5m. Greg's willingness to give her the money, despite the fact that she really doesn't have anything concrete on him. It also struck me that Greg's genuine intelligence and ruthlessness would surely tell him she's likely to be back for more in a year or two.
Lachlan shrugging off his hand job for Saxon so casually as merely the actions of a "people pleaser". No-one's that dumb or so utterly unaware as to think it such a trivial matter.
Lachlan had a pretty serious reaction to the dregs of poison still in the blender. At least a couple of the other family members took a swallow or two from their own drinks, yet showed no ill effects whatsoever. What - they didn't even feel sick or suffer an upset stomach? Tim's weeks of guzzling tranquillisers seems to have been shrugged off with no consequences too.
That whole "just remind me what these fruits do again" scene. That was so heavy handed - and showed a disappointing lack of faith in viewers' intelligence. Seems to me that his exchange with the phone lady there would have made her at least a little concerned too. "Hmmm, one of the guests seems interested in the poison seeds. Nothing to worry about there, then."
The three friends. What was the point of them again?
The abrupt nature and instant totality of the minor characters' personality reversals. I'm thinking here of Saxon, Piper and Giatok. Also, the hotel's boss sees Giatok's hesitation in stopping the killer of her murdered husband, and yet then is willing to trust her life to him as her new bodyguard?
Some of this could have been addressed by seeding some of the finale's events more carefully in previous episodes. I means, it's not like those episodes were so packed with incident there was no room for this to be done.
posted by Paul Slade at 12:28 AM on April 8 [8 favorites]
The murders/deaths in the first two seasons were the culmination of escalating farcical black comedy. This was so different. No innocent characters like Chelsea had been killed off before. I hate Mike White for that! She was my favorite character.
This season's arc is about Thai spirituality - so we have to consider not just the way we feel about what happens to a character, but also also what that outcome might mean from a Budhhist standpoint. The very idea that an ending should be resolved - or that it should be satifying for us - is not aligned with what I think Mike White is saying here. A world that accepts re-encarnation as a matter of fact, will look at the season's narrative as part of a very much larger progress that leads towards enlightenment. Look at all those stoic looking characters we see in the paintings of the opening credits - the're getting munched by a crocodile but still looking pretty damn serene in the process.
(As part of the same idea, I like that it is Frank, who ends up being the one spending a year in a monestary to try to resolve his issues; I suspect he will be kept busy there).
posted by rongorongo at 4:17 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
This season's arc is about Thai spirituality - so we have to consider not just the way we feel about what happens to a character, but also also what that outcome might mean from a Budhhist standpoint. The very idea that an ending should be resolved - or that it should be satifying for us - is not aligned with what I think Mike White is saying here. A world that accepts re-encarnation as a matter of fact, will look at the season's narrative as part of a very much larger progress that leads towards enlightenment. Look at all those stoic looking characters we see in the paintings of the opening credits - the're getting munched by a crocodile but still looking pretty damn serene in the process.
Chelsea "I was never too worried because... Amor Fati -do you know what that means? It means you have to embrace your fate, good or bad. Whatever will be, will be. At this point, we are linked so, if a bad thing happens to you it happens to me. I think we're going to be together forever, don't you?"Monk in opening sequence:
Rick "...That's the plan."
Chelsea "It is!"
Sometimes when we wake up up with anxiety we have an edgy energy, like "what will happen today?", "what is in store for me?" - so many questions. We want resolutions; solid earth under our feet. So, we take lies into our own hands, we take action yeah? Our solutions are temporary;they are a quick fix. They create more anxiety,more suffering. There is no resolution to large questions.It is easier to be patient once you finally accept there is no resolution.So Chelsea's death - is both tragic and also the immediate fulfillment of that idea that so delights her in the above scene: her fate is indeed to be bound for eternity with the one she loves.
(As part of the same idea, I like that it is Frank, who ends up being the one spending a year in a monestary to try to resolve his issues; I suspect he will be kept busy there).
posted by rongorongo at 4:17 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
I think I'm going to wind up seeing this season as a game of Survivor. Maybe it's because I'm seeing it through the lens of Belinda's experience. She was playing an impossible game-- "I can't get a break in this fucking life"-- and she made the correct choice in the end. Like the way Surivivor contestants keep saying, "I'm not here to make friends." Nobody at that hotel is to be trusted, with the possible exception of Pornchai, but it wouldn't be smart to throw in her lot with him either.
In one of the first episodes, there was a cameo by a Survivor couple. Belinda nodded happily at them, glad to see that someone resembling her could have a place at that table. It wasn't just going to come to her, though. And it was a bit of a Faustian bargain. But it yielded exactly half of what Ratliff got for that chickenshit money laundering thing. But like in Survivor, it was never going to be fair. Belinda just got out of there with what she needed.
posted by BibiRose at 4:57 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
In one of the first episodes, there was a cameo by a Survivor couple. Belinda nodded happily at them, glad to see that someone resembling her could have a place at that table. It wasn't just going to come to her, though. And it was a bit of a Faustian bargain. But it yielded exactly half of what Ratliff got for that chickenshit money laundering thing. But like in Survivor, it was never going to be fair. Belinda just got out of there with what she needed.
posted by BibiRose at 4:57 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
I also wonder why they felt they needed 90 minutes for a bad shootout scene and some emoting?
posted by signal at 6:01 AM on April 8
posted by signal at 6:01 AM on April 8
One thought I had while watching the finale was that whomever the assistant director or whomever was hired to shoot all the b-roll footage must have just had a helluva fun time.
Then again, given how controlling Mike White can be, it may have been a nightmare.
"No, go back and shoot the monks walking in at morning magic hour again!"
"We've been there fourteen times already."
"So fifteen is the magic number!"
posted by Atreides at 6:56 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
Then again, given how controlling Mike White can be, it may have been a nightmare.
"No, go back and shoot the monks walking in at morning magic hour again!"
"We've been there fourteen times already."
"So fifteen is the magic number!"
posted by Atreides at 6:56 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
This season felt like it was trapped in its own reputation. It became more of a who dunnit than the previous seasons and there were waaaaayyyy too many red herrings. I don't recall watching the first two seasons with as much of an "is this the thing?" vibe to every scene, and so much of it was just . . . irrelevant. I said from ep 1 there is no way the poison fruit is the thing because it's too obvious but they are going to make people all season think it's the thing and then it was almost the thing and honestly it just made me angry that Mike White captured me for two seasons and then decided I was that stupid to fall for it.
What the entire F was the point of one of the main women recognizing Victoria in the restaurant to then never bring it up again. There were so many things that I was waiting for there to be a reason this made the final edit and so much of it was just needless distraction that it took away from any kind of ethos I was meant to take away from this season.
posted by archimago at 7:44 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
What the entire F was the point of one of the main women recognizing Victoria in the restaurant to then never bring it up again. There were so many things that I was waiting for there to be a reason this made the final edit and so much of it was just needless distraction that it took away from any kind of ethos I was meant to take away from this season.
posted by archimago at 7:44 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
And also --what is the insurance liability for an internationally famous hotel riddled with poisonous fruit within arm's reach?
posted by archimago at 7:46 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]
posted by archimago at 7:46 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]
The idea that the dad would just leave some poison in the blender that his kids used every morning because reasons was probably the least believable part.
posted by signal at 8:08 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]
posted by signal at 8:08 AM on April 8 [4 favorites]
Also, while I celebrate Chelsea explaining the concept of a Karass to Saxon, White Lotus is no Cat's Cradle and White is no Vonnegut.
posted by signal at 8:12 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
posted by signal at 8:12 AM on April 8 [2 favorites]
All our poison fruit questions answered here (NYT gift article).
Well, at least most of the questions. It's apparently a nice decorative tree who's poisoned seed/fruit has been used for medical treatment and for determining if someone is a witch or not!
posted by Atreides at 9:07 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
Well, at least most of the questions. It's apparently a nice decorative tree who's poisoned seed/fruit has been used for medical treatment and for determining if someone is a witch or not!
posted by Atreides at 9:07 AM on April 8 [1 favorite]
And also --what is the insurance liability for an internationally famous hotel riddled with poisonous fruit within arm's reach?
A little more about the pong pong tree - it contains cerberin which is a cardiac glycoside - disrupting the output and contraction rate of the heart. A few thousand people die from eating the fruits each year - although injestion is not always fatal. Part of the reason why an eco-hotel on a site surrounded by monkeys might choose to plant one - is that they would stay away from it. Another reason is that it looks good (its main purpose is as an ornamental tree). In reality, the fruits taste very bitter - which is probably explains why they are not accidentally eaten more.
posted by rongorongo at 9:10 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]
A little more about the pong pong tree - it contains cerberin which is a cardiac glycoside - disrupting the output and contraction rate of the heart. A few thousand people die from eating the fruits each year - although injestion is not always fatal. Part of the reason why an eco-hotel on a site surrounded by monkeys might choose to plant one - is that they would stay away from it. Another reason is that it looks good (its main purpose is as an ornamental tree). In reality, the fruits taste very bitter - which is probably explains why they are not accidentally eaten more.
posted by rongorongo at 9:10 AM on April 8 [3 favorites]
I don't think Pornchai and Belinda were in the same space as Tanya and Belinda, either.
I didn't go back to season 1, but a friend told me that Belinda's words to Pornchai were pretty close, almost word-to-word, what Tanya said to Belinda. Seemed to be an intentional parallel, to show us how quickly Belinda's financial status changes her worldview and approach to staff.
However, I will also add that Pornchai proposed opening a business together after these two had known each other a week and slept together, what, once? That is a very fast escalation! I get that it had to fit within the confines of the show's timeline, and, as viewers, we really like both these characters, but, really, it would be pretty crazy to take on a lover and business partner in one combo relationship after a week in paradise.
I guess Victoria won out overall
Victoria, off the Lorazepram, could teach a master class in mom-manipulation. She worked the situation so that Piper could walk up herself to making the decision Victoria wanted. I did think Piper's comment "You could tell the food wasn't organic" was a bit precious. I get this is a wealthy family, but I would also think that local food made with local ingredients might taste half-decent?
Also, it felt like the show was trying to have it both ways with Lochlan: both showing his death in a melodramatic, emotional way, but then ... not actually killing him off. I also agree that Tim not letting Lochlan have the drink, and ignoring the dirty blender, was super heavy handed. But I do totally believe that American parents wouldn't let an 18 year old, high school senior drink, regardless of local drinking laws. Also, it's a bit odd that Tim thinks that he shouldn't kill Lochlan because he says he could live without a house, when Tim is also considering killing off the rest of the family. Like, the trauma of moving forward, at age 18, when your dad did a murder-suicide while on vacation would be profound, and I think even Tim would know that, even doped up on Lorazepram?
Tim's ruminating about whether to kill his family was pretty awful, and, honestly, a bit tiresome. Maybe I am not rich or patriarchal enough to relate.
(Also, I am very proud of myself for this: "it’s going to be some sort of Romeo and Juliet type thing with the Ratliffs. Tim and Saxon both see themselves as patriarchal protectors... The blender will be involved, and the poison fruit.")
Chelsea was a charming character, but I didn't love her role, as tolerant, forever-patient, mother-girlfriend to Rick, and as betterer-of-men to Saxon. She was a flat character we were meant to think was well developed, but I never saw what she got out of her relationship with Rick. I know we all like Walter Groggins, but greasy-haired Rick is not Walter. Rick gives her so little. I think he only smiled at her once, on the beach, when he gets back from Bangkok. Who do Rick and Frank get backstories when Chelsea does not?
Laurie's speech was the highlight of the season for me
Do the friends change, though? Don't we hear, early on, from them that they go away together every few years and it always blows up?
Also, clearly the White Lotus, the death hotel, is going to close, and there's going to be a lot of space for Belinda to become an international spa-magnate, and I hope she brings Pam with her into season 4.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:03 PM on April 8 [6 favorites]
I didn't go back to season 1, but a friend told me that Belinda's words to Pornchai were pretty close, almost word-to-word, what Tanya said to Belinda. Seemed to be an intentional parallel, to show us how quickly Belinda's financial status changes her worldview and approach to staff.
However, I will also add that Pornchai proposed opening a business together after these two had known each other a week and slept together, what, once? That is a very fast escalation! I get that it had to fit within the confines of the show's timeline, and, as viewers, we really like both these characters, but, really, it would be pretty crazy to take on a lover and business partner in one combo relationship after a week in paradise.
I guess Victoria won out overall
Victoria, off the Lorazepram, could teach a master class in mom-manipulation. She worked the situation so that Piper could walk up herself to making the decision Victoria wanted. I did think Piper's comment "You could tell the food wasn't organic" was a bit precious. I get this is a wealthy family, but I would also think that local food made with local ingredients might taste half-decent?
Also, it felt like the show was trying to have it both ways with Lochlan: both showing his death in a melodramatic, emotional way, but then ... not actually killing him off. I also agree that Tim not letting Lochlan have the drink, and ignoring the dirty blender, was super heavy handed. But I do totally believe that American parents wouldn't let an 18 year old, high school senior drink, regardless of local drinking laws. Also, it's a bit odd that Tim thinks that he shouldn't kill Lochlan because he says he could live without a house, when Tim is also considering killing off the rest of the family. Like, the trauma of moving forward, at age 18, when your dad did a murder-suicide while on vacation would be profound, and I think even Tim would know that, even doped up on Lorazepram?
Tim's ruminating about whether to kill his family was pretty awful, and, honestly, a bit tiresome. Maybe I am not rich or patriarchal enough to relate.
(Also, I am very proud of myself for this: "it’s going to be some sort of Romeo and Juliet type thing with the Ratliffs. Tim and Saxon both see themselves as patriarchal protectors... The blender will be involved, and the poison fruit.")
Chelsea was a charming character, but I didn't love her role, as tolerant, forever-patient, mother-girlfriend to Rick, and as betterer-of-men to Saxon. She was a flat character we were meant to think was well developed, but I never saw what she got out of her relationship with Rick. I know we all like Walter Groggins, but greasy-haired Rick is not Walter. Rick gives her so little. I think he only smiled at her once, on the beach, when he gets back from Bangkok. Who do Rick and Frank get backstories when Chelsea does not?
Laurie's speech was the highlight of the season for me
Do the friends change, though? Don't we hear, early on, from them that they go away together every few years and it always blows up?
Also, clearly the White Lotus, the death hotel, is going to close, and there's going to be a lot of space for Belinda to become an international spa-magnate, and I hope she brings Pam with her into season 4.
posted by bluedaisy at 12:03 PM on April 8 [6 favorites]
bluedaisy: "(Also, I am very proud of myself for this: "it’s going to be some sort of Romeo and Juliet type thing with the Ratliffs. Tim and Saxon both see themselves as patriarchal protectors... The blender will be involved, and the poison fruit.")"
Kudos!
posted by Atreides at 1:32 PM on April 8
Kudos!
posted by Atreides at 1:32 PM on April 8
bluedaisy: "
Also, clearly the White Lotus, the death hotel, is going to close, and there's going to be a lot of space for Belinda to become an international spa-magnate, and I hope she brings Pam with her into season 4."
The only way I'd watch s04 is if they have Belinda, Pam, Lucia, and Mia as the central characters.
posted by signal at 1:36 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
Also, clearly the White Lotus, the death hotel, is going to close, and there's going to be a lot of space for Belinda to become an international spa-magnate, and I hope she brings Pam with her into season 4."
The only way I'd watch s04 is if they have Belinda, Pam, Lucia, and Mia as the central characters.
posted by signal at 1:36 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
(Turns out that Walter Groggins is actually Walton Goggins.)
posted by bluedaisy at 2:57 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
posted by bluedaisy at 2:57 PM on April 8 [1 favorite]
Rick continuing to stay at the resort owned by the man whose life he threatened was some real idiot ball handling though.
In the specific case of Rick, I think that the character was written as a lot more unstable on the page. But Walton Goggins' performance gave an impression of a character with a lot more depth, and so when he was thoughtless or careless, it felt off.
But on the other hand, Goggins' version of Rick did make me believe that he and Chelsea could have an actual relationship, so it was a wash for me.
As for Tim, I chalked up all his sloppiness to spiralling and being full of whiskey and lorazepam.
posted by ishmael at 11:30 PM on April 8 [2 favorites]
In the specific case of Rick, I think that the character was written as a lot more unstable on the page. But Walton Goggins' performance gave an impression of a character with a lot more depth, and so when he was thoughtless or careless, it felt off.
But on the other hand, Goggins' version of Rick did make me believe that he and Chelsea could have an actual relationship, so it was a wash for me.
As for Tim, I chalked up all his sloppiness to spiralling and being full of whiskey and lorazepam.
posted by ishmael at 11:30 PM on April 8 [2 favorites]
Goggins' performance was very very good. Yet, I couldn't help but thinking Boyd Crowder would have not only taken out Gaitok but protected Chelsea as well. Now, Uncle Baby Billy, that would be another thing entirely. Damn, Goggins has been some great characters.
posted by Ber at 10:13 AM on April 9 [3 favorites]
posted by Ber at 10:13 AM on April 9 [3 favorites]
Boyd wouldn't have hung around the hotel in the first place.
Boyd: My momma told me you and my daddy dug coal together...until you shot him in the back over some land.
Hollinger: I don't even know who you are.
Boyd: You ruined my life, you son of a bitch. [click, click, BANG]
[5 minutes later]
Boyd: Frank, we gotta go!
Frank: What? Really? Want to party?
Boyd: Sure wish I could, but you might say my meeting with my daddy's killer came to an abrupt and lethal end. I got a woman to pick up and a plane to catch, so no time for pleasantries.
[fin]
(right, okay, Boyd would have shot him.)
posted by Atreides at 10:25 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
Boyd: My momma told me you and my daddy dug coal together...until you shot him in the back over some land.
Hollinger: I don't even know who you are.
Boyd: You ruined my life, you son of a bitch. [click, click, BANG]
[5 minutes later]
Boyd: Frank, we gotta go!
Frank: What? Really? Want to party?
Boyd: Sure wish I could, but you might say my meeting with my daddy's killer came to an abrupt and lethal end. I got a woman to pick up and a plane to catch, so no time for pleasantries.
[fin]
(right, okay, Boyd would have shot him.)
posted by Atreides at 10:25 AM on April 9 [2 favorites]
Just finished, like many I felt this was disappointing. For me the problem is entirely the writing, the script just didn't have much to say. And what it did say was so cynical. Just really depressing. I'd be OK with that if it felt more earned.
Prestige Fantasy Island. That's what White Lotus is. Maybe they could take the formula and compress it to an Spelling-paced 46 minutes. Happy to keep visiting different resorts, it's fun having different hotel staff as part of the rotation. But maybe the writers would do better in a short story form than a novel.
posted by Nelson at 8:52 AM on April 10 [3 favorites]
Prestige Fantasy Island. That's what White Lotus is. Maybe they could take the formula and compress it to an Spelling-paced 46 minutes. Happy to keep visiting different resorts, it's fun having different hotel staff as part of the rotation. But maybe the writers would do better in a short story form than a novel.
posted by Nelson at 8:52 AM on April 10 [3 favorites]
I haven't mentioned this yet, and I have been meaning to do so for several episodes, but DANG, Isaacs is the dry swallow pill king. Is that just how he does it? Did he see it as something Timothy would do? Every time, me just reaching for a glass of water out of instinct to take medicine.
posted by Atreides at 8:22 AM on April 11 [1 favorite]
posted by Atreides at 8:22 AM on April 11 [1 favorite]
I can dry swallow most small pills with ease. In reality, it is not hard for me to quickly have enough saliva in my mouth to make it trivial. On The Ringer Prestige podcast, they mentioned that lorazepam pills taste sweet so that eliminates the one thing that can go wrong for me when I fail at swallowing a pill.
posted by mmascolino at 8:33 AM on April 13 [1 favorite]
posted by mmascolino at 8:33 AM on April 13 [1 favorite]
I've been complaining about how little they did with Lisa/Mook. She just headlined Coachella.
posted by signal at 2:20 PM on April 13 [1 favorite]
posted by signal at 2:20 PM on April 13 [1 favorite]
There are some interesting commentaries on the series/this episode, from various subject experts:
Narcissism Expert, Doctor Ramani.
Cinematographer, Mark Bone
Religious Scholar, Benjamin Park
Cristobal Tapia de Veer on composing the soundtrack
Making Episode 8 - Mike White
posted by rongorongo at 12:42 AM on April 14
Narcissism Expert, Doctor Ramani.
Cinematographer, Mark Bone
Religious Scholar, Benjamin Park
Cristobal Tapia de Veer on composing the soundtrack
Making Episode 8 - Mike White
posted by rongorongo at 12:42 AM on April 14
I think it was the third best season for this show, with the Sicily season for me being the standout.
Like many other posters above, there were criticisms to be had in the way the finale panned out. But, I'm going to be kind; if this was in a vacuum and seasons 1 and 2 didn't exist, I think I'd be lauding this season as a triumph.
The cinematography was great right down to the monkey b-roll footage. Acting was fantastic, with extra nods to Jason Isaacs, Parker Posey, and Carrie Coon.
Belinda going for the blood money and dropping Pornchai was both shocking and totally predictable.
Gaitok's character arc in particular was a bummer because he was such a kind soul. But we should not be surprised, this is The White Lotus. There is a theme across all seasons, and it isn't ethical purity.
Not the best season, but I will definitely miss it.
posted by mcstayinskool at 5:49 AM on April 14 [1 favorite]
Like many other posters above, there were criticisms to be had in the way the finale panned out. But, I'm going to be kind; if this was in a vacuum and seasons 1 and 2 didn't exist, I think I'd be lauding this season as a triumph.
The cinematography was great right down to the monkey b-roll footage. Acting was fantastic, with extra nods to Jason Isaacs, Parker Posey, and Carrie Coon.
Belinda going for the blood money and dropping Pornchai was both shocking and totally predictable.
Gaitok's character arc in particular was a bummer because he was such a kind soul. But we should not be surprised, this is The White Lotus. There is a theme across all seasons, and it isn't ethical purity.
Not the best season, but I will definitely miss it.
posted by mcstayinskool at 5:49 AM on April 14 [1 favorite]
The theme of this season is that people go to Thailand to hide from life - to join a monastery or party till their face falls off or sleep around or whatever. And in each way many of the characters came to face themselves - that they’re going to lose all their money; that running away from family is maybe not the way forward, or they finally admit they’re jealous of their friends and have been making bad choices. Hell even Patrick Schwartzenegger character had some small growth and realized he’s a douche.
I thought Rick’s buddy falling off the wagon for a weekend and then going right back to temple for prostrations summarizes the season for me.
I could have done without the “Luke I am your father” plot twist but whatever.
Lastly it bears saying in the Buddhist framework one’s entire life is in preparation for the experience of death as it 1) is opportunity to attain final nirvana 2) sets you up for the conditions of your next lifetime. So with that in mind, in this season dying isnt bad it’s actually a sign that the characters behaviour in this season was stainless and so they are ready to transition, whereas everyone else has to stay here on earth and keep working at themselves. The two morally pure characters dying (yes the son came back but he had his death experience) died but I’m trying to reconcile Rick. I guess Rick came along too because his fate was tied to hers.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:52 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
I thought Rick’s buddy falling off the wagon for a weekend and then going right back to temple for prostrations summarizes the season for me.
I could have done without the “Luke I am your father” plot twist but whatever.
Lastly it bears saying in the Buddhist framework one’s entire life is in preparation for the experience of death as it 1) is opportunity to attain final nirvana 2) sets you up for the conditions of your next lifetime. So with that in mind, in this season dying isnt bad it’s actually a sign that the characters behaviour in this season was stainless and so they are ready to transition, whereas everyone else has to stay here on earth and keep working at themselves. The two morally pure characters dying (yes the son came back but he had his death experience) died but I’m trying to reconcile Rick. I guess Rick came along too because his fate was tied to hers.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:52 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
Also is it just me or is each season a deadly sin?
S1 anger and jealousy
S2 lust and greed
S3 pride
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:59 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
S1 anger and jealousy
S2 lust and greed
S3 pride
posted by St. Peepsburg at 2:59 PM on April 15 [1 favorite]
I was thinking about Chelsea's death representing an award, as outlandish as that sounds, in the context of the Buddhist theme of the show. She was really the only character who wasn't awful, didn't transgress against others, and appeared to be spiritually situated in her life like none of the other characters. BUT, she wasn't the only one who died. So it's thrown into that mess with Rick, Rick's Dad, the bodyguards, and so on. We also have the theme of water. In the show, the Buddhist monk relates to returning to water as a returning home, and Rick and Chelsea both end up in the pond. Lochlan is next to water, but does not go into it, yet his near death is tied entirely to drowning.
Water is also seen as a purifying substance in many cultures, so one might argue that Rick's last sin after overcoming his temptation may have been washed away so to speak.
But then one of the bodyguards fell in the water, too. I don't know, maybe he was a deserving guy.
posted by Atreides at 6:41 AM on April 16 [1 favorite]
Water is also seen as a purifying substance in many cultures, so one might argue that Rick's last sin after overcoming his temptation may have been washed away so to speak.
But then one of the bodyguards fell in the water, too. I don't know, maybe he was a deserving guy.
posted by Atreides at 6:41 AM on April 16 [1 favorite]
And Rick was face up but Chelsea was face down in the water and that feels important somehow.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:21 AM on April 16 [2 favorites]
posted by St. Peepsburg at 7:21 AM on April 16 [2 favorites]
His face never quite submerges, does it? He's in the water but he's looking out of it, and looking away from Chelsea, that last little bit that couldn't let go.
posted by fleacircus at 1:13 PM on April 16 [1 favorite]
posted by fleacircus at 1:13 PM on April 16 [1 favorite]
December 2024: Coffeemate launch is range of White Lotus themed creamers. inspired by the flavours of Hawaii, Scicily and Thailand or something.
April 2025: It seems like they may have been ahead even of some of us, in terms of including a Thai Pina Colada flavour.
posted by rongorongo at 12:00 PM on April 17 [1 favorite]
April 2025: It seems like they may have been ahead even of some of us, in terms of including a Thai Pina Colada flavour.
posted by rongorongo at 12:00 PM on April 17 [1 favorite]
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posted by bcwinters at 7:45 PM on April 6