Game of Thrones: The Wars to Come   Books Included 
April 13, 2015 1:57 AM - Season 5, Episode 1 - Subscribe

Cersei and Jaime adjust to a world without Tywin. Tyrion and Varys arrive at Pentos. In Meereen, a new enemy emerges. Jon is caught between two kings.
posted by Jacqueline (168 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
So they included Maggy the Frog but cut the valonqar bit? That's an odd choice, isn't it? They put in a flashback but don't include the part most central for understanding Cersei's hatred of Tyrion.
posted by Justinian at 2:30 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


So, at last...

Dany's arc preceding as expected. Dinklage has managed to make Tyrion appropriately self-pitying, even without the 'where do whores go?' line from ADWD. His arc could be interesting. No idea what's going to happen with Sansa and Littlefinger. All of which is good by me.

Some quite touching scenes with the Unsullied, and why they might visit a brothel.

Presumably, as per the books, Mance isn't dead and is in disguise as Rattleshirt, given the number of reverse shots of the two of them during his execution. Interesting that they played it differently, "Mance" dies quietly and soberly whereas in the books he's in a panic (seeing as it's really Rattleshirt). Re-reading the book summaries reminded me that Jon still isn't Lord Commander - we've jumped ahead quite a way.

Loved Margery, she comes across as a much better rival to Cersei than she did in the book.

On preview: good point by Justinian - maybe they figured that valonqar would confuse people, but they could have re-written it as 'beware the little brother'. Maybe they figure that C's hatred for Tyrion is well-enough explained by him killing Tywin (and Joffrey, in theory?). After all, they also cut a lot of the flashbacks of Cersei being nasty to young Tyrion. And the Maggy scene explains why C is so weird around Margery. *shrug*
posted by Pink Frost at 2:38 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Wasn't that actually Tormund Giantsbane they kept flashing to during Mance's burning? Rattleshirt was in the show, but hasn't been seen in a long time. Given Tormund's condition when last seen, throwing him on the fire might have been a mercy killing in comparison.
posted by LionIndex at 3:55 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I wonder if they might return to the Maggy the Frog flashback repeatedly, to reveal the remainder of the prophecy and what happens to Cersei's friend.

I think either they used Tormund for the switcheroo, or there won't be any switch and Tormund will play Mance's role in scenes to come, or they're going to change things thoroughly enough that Theon gets to Stannis some other way.
posted by ocherdraco at 4:29 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Presumably, as per the books, Mance isn't dead and is in disguise as Rattleshirt

I dunno, Mance looks deady dead dead to me.
posted by Justinian at 4:31 AM on April 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Am I nuts or didn't Melisandre have something to do with the switch? It's been so long since I read the book.
posted by Thistledown at 4:48 AM on April 13, 2015


You're correct, she did.
posted by LionIndex at 4:54 AM on April 13, 2015


I was so sad when I realised no more Twyin means no more Charles Dance :( He really managed to elevate that character beyond the somewhat two dimensional villain of the books. For the first time I have a sense of what Tywin's loss meant and some insight into Cersai's arc through Feast. She is now completely unmoored, and the wild flailing decisions have context.
posted by arha at 5:15 AM on April 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


I think they would have laid more clues if they were going to do the switcheroo.
posted by Area Man at 5:29 AM on April 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Presumably, as per the books, Mance isn't dead and is in disguise as Rattleshirt

According to an EW interview with the actor who plays Mance, he's really dead. He thinks there's just so much going on, they streamlined the story.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:30 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I agree that the setup for the switch was pretty much non-existant, and the only real payoff (so far) from the books is that Mance then goes down to Winterfell and starts picking off Bolton goons, but there's no real reason that couldn't be handled by someone else. They also seem to have totally disposed with Melisandre's whole obsession with killing Mance's kid (since he doesn't have one) to appease R'hllor, which then leads to Sam, Gilly, and Aemon leaving Castle Black and the baby switcheroo. Instead it looks like she'll probably just go after Shireen.

So, I think the show is more or less caught up with just Sansa and Bran, but a number of other storylines are divergent enough from the books that spoilers are gradually becoming a moot point. I do wonder how they'll handle controllong the dragons without the prospect of Victarion sailing over to Mereen with the dragon horn. That may be yet to come, but it seems like anything to do with the Ironborn that aren't Theon has been abandoned; they'll have to get rolling with it real quick if they want to do otherwise.
posted by LionIndex at 6:16 AM on April 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


That final scene really was well done, I thought - Mance's fear, the horrified reaction from most everyone, then cut to Selyse with a creepy smile on the balcony.

The Wall really felt like the centre of the action this week; that might be because that's where the bulk of the characters are for the moment.
posted by nubs at 6:25 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


According to an EW interview with the actor who plays Mance, he's really dead.

NOOOOOOOOOO!!!! Mance is one of the funnest characters.
posted by drezdn at 6:28 AM on April 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Here's the EW interview I mentioned.

Pity, the actor and character were pretty good. Seems a damn silly way to die though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:41 AM on April 13, 2015


I wasn't expecting Maggy the Frog to be so attractive. Maybe a warty old-lady witch seemed too hackneyed?
posted by Area Man at 6:52 AM on April 13, 2015


Perhaps. It was an odd and delightful surprise though.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:01 AM on April 13, 2015


Ciaran Hinds was older than the Machine Household consensus for Mance, but he KILLED IT. We're also big fans of his charismatic-has-a-point-but-totally-doomed-leader thing from Rome.

Also, how hard is Sansa going to kill Littlefinger? She's going to murder the FUCK out of him. The bit where the wagon Brienne and Pod see rolling in the distance turns out to be Sansa and Littlefinger ~ right as they're talking about the Stark girls ~ was a little pat, but yeah, I could barely hear ANYTHING over her stone-cold face while the poor Arryn boy basically gets worked until he has a fit, and then Sansa, sitting in that wagon, dressed to look like Cat, but giving Littlefinger his full due as a master manipulator in a way that neither Lysa nor Cat did?

SHE'S GONNA MURDER SO HARD

Also, after suffering through the Tyrion bits in the last book, I'm delighted at Varys calling Tyrion out on his endless, deeply irritating self-pity.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:03 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Our long reign over the non-reading masses is coming to an end, clearly. Whether or not our rule was benevolent or tyrannical will be a matter for the historians.

This episode was par for a first episode, I thought, and I didn't mind having to catch up with all our friends in their various places and states. I was very excited to see the flashback with young Cersei visiting the woods witch. And the young actress nailed the character – all she needed was a tween-sized wine goblet. I was pleased to see Kevan Lannister make another appearance (same actor, to boot!) and look forward to seeing him more this season as Cersei's foil.

Very sad, on the other hand, to see Mance (and by extension Abel and his spearwives) depart. If somehow they do try to pull of the switcheroo after all, it'll seem cheap, I fear. And of course Ciarán Hinds is an absolute asset to anything he's in.

My favorite quote would probably be Margaery's repeated "Perhaps."

Can't wait to see what hijinks Brienne & Pod get up to, and how Littlefinger's plan for Sansa shakes out. Of course, as a fervent partisan for Good Queen Sansa, I'm eager to see where her story goes in any event.

On preview, fully agree with joyceanmachine's comment regarding Varys & Tyrion. Looking forward to more of their buddyship as well.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 7:12 AM on April 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Also, how hard is Sansa going to kill Littlefinger?

I'm more curious to find out if she's going to kill other people and if so, how many and who. Arya has a list, perhaps Sansa does also.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:41 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Baby Cersei managed to look eerily like Cersei and like Joffrey. Great casting, whoever.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:41 AM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


And at this point, even what the book readers know isn't worth much. There's just a lot of pages of people sitting around being paranoid about stuff (Cersei with Margaery, Dany worrying about "the perfumed seneschal"), Tyrion's completely different road trip with characters that probably wont exist in the show, Arya doing her Faceless training, and Jon brooding at the wall with some political intrigue. Basically its all setup for a big battle at Winterfell and something at Mereen (obviously going to be a battle in the books, but since no one is currently headed to Mereen besides Tyrion I don't know what they'll do), but they could conceivably condense all that into four episodes and be completely beyond the books halfway through the season.
posted by LionIndex at 7:47 AM on April 13, 2015


So Daario (and B and E) is Sonny from Treme? He's really bulked up since he got off the smack.
posted by drezdn at 7:47 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Years in the fighting puts will do that to a man.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:49 AM on April 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Maggy the Frog! I was so, so happy to see that. Didn't mind so much that the Valonqar bit got cut, as I imagine that's just for now. The opening scene and then cutting to Cersei on the steps of the Sept were clearly setting up the ending of the season, and Cersei's walk from that Sept, and her fear of Margaery is the important thing to understand there.

The biggest thing about Mance's death (and I honestly couldn't remember what happened with him in the books, just with his son) was just how transparently stupid it seemed from a political perspective. Stannis needs Mance's people to fight for him. I know that Melisandre is a pyro and that Stannis is utterly charmless but surely they'd know better than that.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:49 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Where west are they going that Cersei can't reach Sansa? In the books she is still in the Vale. There doesn't seem to be much to the west that is safe. The only place that might be safe would be Greywater Watch, where we've never been in the books, but that's northwest of the Eyrie.

Was this the first flashback on the show? Other than dream sequences and rehashes like for the melt-down of Ice, I can't remember one. If so, it could likely could be a prelude to more flashbacks in the future. Such as for LSH or even for bringing back Ned to discuss events surrounding Jon Snow's mother.

I remember Cersei and Jaime talking about Tywin's corpse smelling bad in the books. I wonder if that will come up. Jaime seemed a little too reverent of Tywin.

I need to rewatch the episode more carefully, but it seemed like all the torches people were carrying got just a little bit brighter when Melisandre started speaking. And that was pretty clearly Mance Rayder tied to the post (and with an arrow stuck in his chest). I think his was not a sub-plot they wanted to spend time/money on.
posted by tempestuoso at 7:56 AM on April 13, 2015


Yes, this is the first flashback in the show.

Pink Frost: Dany's arc preceding as expected. Dinklage has managed to make Tyrion appropriately self-pitying, even without the 'where do whores go?' line from ADWD. His arc could be interesting.

Brandon Blatcher: According to an EW interview with the actor who plays Mance, he's really dead. He thinks there's just so much going on, they streamlined the story.

I had forgotten about the rattle-shirt switch, so I was actually looking for him in the audience. Have we seen him in a while? I forget.

Back to the general streamlining: it's interesting to see Stannis asking Jon to help him enlist the free folk into his army, when the books had Jon making the case against Stannis' concerns for the wildlings flooding and terrorizing lands below the wall (and losing face to some of the Night's Watch, with dire consequences).

Ditto on the massively truncated storyline with Tyrion seeking out Dany as her consultant. I wonder if we'll get the bit with Penny and Ser Jorah as slaves.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:01 AM on April 13, 2015


Pity, the actor and character were pretty good.

"pretty good" oh no you did not just describe ciaran hinds as just "pretty good"
posted by poffin boffin at 8:05 AM on April 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


Jorah being enslaved was one of my favorite ironies of the books. That better happen.
posted by tempestuoso at 8:06 AM on April 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Doesn't Varys kill Kevan in the books to let Cersei's stupid flow more efficiently? I guess that's not happening either. Man, I HOPE they get beyond the books by halfway through the season; I really don't want to have to watch Cersei be a paranoid jerk for a whole season
posted by LionIndex at 8:10 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


"pretty good" oh no you did not just describe ciaran hinds as just "pretty good"

Pretty much just did!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:12 AM on April 13, 2015


I assumed that since Littlefinger is Lord of Harrenhall, they'd be headed there, but I don't know how that's necessarily safer than the Eyrie. We're beyond Sansa's book plotline, so whatever she does is uncharted territory from now on.

I thought part of the Mance switcheroo was Melisandre magicking up Rattleshirt so that he looked like Mance, so I don't think the burning guy looking like Mance disproves that concept.
posted by LionIndex at 8:17 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Does the domain of the 7 Kingdoms extend north of the Wall? Stannis killed Mance because he was an imposter king, but Mance only had the title of "king beyond the walls," whose only goal (?) was to get his people south of the wall, ahead of the coming Winter and all the wintery things that would come with it.

And now I realize there was no possible Horn of Winter, but as schroedinger said in the recent GRRM interview thread on the blue,
horns in ASoIF are probably a reverse-Chekov's gun, just like all the other reverse-Chekov's guns GRRM seems to be so fond of. If they introduce it in the show at all I think that will be confirmation it's actually a relevant plot point in the books.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:19 AM on April 13, 2015


Speaking of Melisandre, I was anticipating the huge ruby at her throat to start glowing during the pyre scene, but was disappointed. That might have been a strong clue that they were pulling the switcheroo. And she really cut to the chase with Jon Snow, didn't she?
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 8:24 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


LionIndex: they could conceivably condense all that into four episodes and be completely beyond the books halfway through the season.

It's not clear, but this Vanity Fair article on the series spoiling the books makes it sound like it's one season per book, and this season will catch up to the current books. It's unclear when The Winds of Winter will come out (possibly as soon as this summer, before summer Con season?), but more clear that GRRM can't churn out book 7 before season 7 airs.


The Nutmeg of Consolation: And she really cut to the chase with Jon Snow, didn't she?

This episode seemed like the most obvious case of the show being CliffsNotes for the books. Tyrion wallowed and wandered all around before realizing he could work for Dany, but we jumped over all that in a single scene.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:26 AM on April 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I really read Feast and, to a lesser extent, Dance, as a slog to get to the interesting bits. Those interesting bits have not yet been delivered in the books. Here's hoping that a different set of financial and creative pressures lead the HBO folks to cut to the chase -- and it seems like they are, given what we saw last season and, so far, here.

Sad to see Mance go in the service of that, but Jon Snow got a Builds Character moment out of it, and anything that spares me two seasons of Tyrion on a Boat is fine with me.

As an aside -- any thoughts on what will happen if Tyrion does not make the riverboat journey? I read the "stoneskin" illness as a sort of authorial kick-in-the-pants: quit screwing about drinking your life away, you are seriously about to die! If he doesn't make the riverboat journey and end up in the water, I wonder what (if anything) will take its place. I mean there's nothing saying he won't just do the riverboat, but with Varys and friends instead of the folks he's with in Feast/Dance.
posted by Alterscape at 8:41 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Doesn't Varys kill Kevan in the books to let Cersei's stupid flow more efficiently? I guess that's not happening either.

Kevan's death is in the epilogue of Dance; and Varys is effectively "off screen" from the end of ASoS until that moment in the books.

I think they have time to move pieces around and get Varys where he needs to be for that; in the meantime, having Varys and Tyrion as one of our travelling duos that the show does well is going to be fun (The Hound and Arya need to be replaced and we still have Brienne & Pod; and it looks like we can add Sansa & Littlefinger and from what I understand, Jaime & Bronn this year as well).

Speaking of Brienne & Pod and Sansa & Littlefinger, is the geography of where everyone is feeling strange to anyone but me? Wasn't Brienne turned away at the Bloody Gate, and then encountered the Hound; and if Sansa & Peter are at Lord Royce's then they are in the Vale, and then just as suddenly out of it? I guess they are going to need to simplify travel around Westeros and Essos for the sake of time, but it felt really weird to me.
posted by nubs at 8:43 AM on April 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Tyrion wallowed and wandered all around before realizing he could work for Dany, but we jumped over all that in a single scene.

Thank God.

If we can skip the entire wretched arc of GRRM hamhandedly attempting to convince us that Tyrion is worth rooting for again after he murdered Shae because he just feels SO BAD ABOUT IT, I'd be much happier.
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:45 AM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


So they included Maggy the Frog but cut the valonqar bit? That's an odd choice, isn't it? They put in a flashback but don't include the part most central for understanding Cersei's hatred of Tyrion.

I wonder if they're trying to keep a future plot line from becoming too overt. Or maybe they're saving that bit for a later episode? Anyway, the prophecy in the books says a number of things.

1) Cersei will become Queen.
2) Cersei will be deposed by someone younger and prettier than she is. (Current possible candidates: Margaery, Daenerys or Myrcella.)
3) Robert will have sixteen children.
4) Cersei will have three children.
5) All of Cersei's children will wear crowns, and have gold shrouds. (This raises the possibility that Princess Myrcella will rise to the throne.)
6) The "valonqar" (it means "little brother" in High Valerian) shall choke her to death.
7) Melara would die a virgin.

Both Tyrion and Jamie are Cersei's younger brothers. (Cersei was born first.) Stannis was younger brother to Robert Baratheon. Jon Snow and Bran were Robb Stark's younger brothers. And on the show, Arya is about to join a brotherhood of assassins, the Faceless Men.

In addition, Rhaegal and Viserion are little brothers (in size) to Drogon.

In theory, any of the above could fulfill that part of the prophecy.
posted by zarq at 8:47 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


2) Cersei will be deposed by someone younger and prettier than she is. (Current possible candidates: Margaery, Daenerys or Myrcella.)

Sansa as well I would suggest. Littlefinger is maneuvering for something.
posted by nubs at 8:52 AM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


So does Tyrion and Varys taking the yellow brick road to Meereen mean the whole Aegon storyline is kaput?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 8:54 AM on April 13, 2015


The one season per book thing only held for the first two seasons generally, but it depends on which plotline you're talking about, and with the way the last two books were divided geographically it just gets more muddy. We just reached the end of Tyrion's book 3 arc at the end of the fourth season, when we also reached the end of Bran and Sansa's book 5 arcs.

It's just dismaying because the characters who still have book material to get through are mostly pretty boring (aside from Arya IMO).
posted by LionIndex at 8:57 AM on April 13, 2015


2) Cersei will be deposed by someone younger and prettier than she is. (Current possible candidates: Margaery, Daenerys or Myrcella.)

Loras?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:59 AM on April 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


Sansa as well I would suggest. Littlefinger is maneuvering for something.

Good point! Hadn't occurred to me.
posted by zarq at 9:06 AM on April 13, 2015


Could Littlefinger be taking her back to Winterfell and hoping to install her as the ruler there, along with probably marrying her? He does that and he's made himself the lord of 2/7 of the Seven Kingdoms plus Harrenhall.

I don't think Tyrion will be doing the boat trip, since Varys specifically said "ride". Plus, the geography's all wrong for a boat trip down the Rhoyne from Pentos instead of Braavos.
posted by LionIndex at 9:15 AM on April 13, 2015


Was this the first time the show has hinted that Cersei wasn't responsible for Robert Baratheon's death by boar?
posted by mzurer at 9:17 AM on April 13, 2015


Could Littlefinger be taking her back to Winterfell and hoping to install her as the ruler there, along with probably marrying her? He does that and he's made himself the lord of 2/7 of the Seven Kingdoms plus Harrenhall.

If he wants to do that, he needs some plan for how to deal with the Boltons. (Stannis, also, but he likely doesn't even know that.)
posted by Area Man at 9:34 AM on April 13, 2015


So does Tyrion and Varys taking the yellow brick road to Meereen mean the whole Aegon storyline is kaput?

God I hope so.

Was this the first time the show has hinted that Cersei wasn't responsible for Robert Baratheon's death by boar?

I took "I don't know what you're talking about" in that scene to mean "STOP TALKING ABOUT HOW YOU HELPED ME MURDER MY HUSBAND, IDIOT" as opposed to "I literally don't know what you're talking about"
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:41 AM on April 13, 2015 [20 favorites]


I liked the scene with the dragons. The books never really sold me on why Dany didn't even TRY to train them; their size and ferocity in the show help demonstrate how they might not actually BE trainable. (After all, no one alive has ever trained a dragon, so maybe the knowledge is lost.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:43 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm super liking how this season looks like its a tight edit of the last two books. So much cruft and fluff could be slashed and the story is stronger because of it.

The unsullied who got murderated; isn't he a little too buff to be an... unsullied?
posted by porpoise at 9:44 AM on April 13, 2015


Could Littlefinger be taking her back to Winterfell and hoping to install her as the ruler there, along with probably marrying her?

It would be in keeping with the apparent compression/condensing of timelines and storylines to put Sansa into the Winterfell Huis Clos. In fact, it would up the stakes of that incredibly.
posted by nubs at 10:00 AM on April 13, 2015


Could Littlefinger be taking her back to Winterfell and hoping to install her as the ruler there, along with probably marrying her? He does that and he's made himself the lord of 2/7 of the Seven Kingdoms plus Harrenhall.

I highly doubt it. Harrenhall is his by gift from the Iron Throne. Installing Sansa in Winterfell would be a huge, loud call of open defiance, plus it would take those in The Vale about 2 seconds to put two and two together, recognize who "Alayne" really is, and how Lady Arryn came to her end. So maybe he gets The North out of it, but without any banners to his side, while Roose and Stannis fight over it with actual armies.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:23 AM on April 13, 2015


For the long game, Littlefinger almost certainly wants to assert Sansa's claim over Winterfell, but with Roose Bolton there presently, she would hardly be out of reach of Cersei. It doesn't make sense for that to be their immediate destination.

Also, Winterfell may be technically longitudinally west of the Vale, but when you go to Winterfell from the south, you go not just north, but big-N North. Not west. I suppose the most sense would be Harrenhal, since he is lord there. But that's even closer to Cersei, not far from the King's Road, more accessible, and so more risk of exposure to familiar eyes.

Perhaps he means to go west for a little while to throw people off their scent, and then will catch a boat somewhere and take her to Baelish Keep, as in the books. They sort of skipped over that mini-trip in the show, although it's hard to think what such a trip would add to the plot at this point.

Or are you guys suggesting that she would take the role Jeyne Poole plays in the books, pretending she is not Sansa or Alayne, but Arya?
posted by tempestuoso at 10:24 AM on April 13, 2015


Or are you guys suggesting that she would take the role Jeyne Poole plays in the books, pretending she is not Sansa or Alayne, but Arya?

I wouldn't be terribly surprised by this. It makes a lot of sense - I mean, when did we last see or hear of Jeyne in the show?

Hopefully we won't get the rest of Jeyne's storyline applied to Sansa though because augh.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:30 AM on April 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


The books never really sold me on why Dany didn't even TRY to train them; their size and ferocity in the show help demonstrate how they might not actually BE trainable.

I would suggest talking to animal trainers and then taking a cow or two with you whenever visiting.

But who knows? They're fire breathing dragons that are confined by metal chains. Maybe they're just not very smart.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:30 AM on April 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


I really, really don't want to see her filling a role equivalent to Jeyne Poole/fakeArya (the most pitiable character in the series, IMO). Why would Littlefinger give her to him? But it does make a certain bit of sense by the show's narrative logic, in terms of keeping extraneous characters to a minimum. And it makes Theon's redemption arc resonate a lot more. And Sophie Turner specifically mentioned filming a traumatic scene (though she is Lena Headey's apprentice in tweaking fan expectations). But yeah, augh.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 10:43 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Can we just say that in addition to, yes, Varys and Illyrio chatting in secret in season one, Varys is also the one whosent the assassin after Dany? Because that little inconsistency is going to bug me if we're going for a long-con right now.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:48 AM on April 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Last we saw of the Boltons they were just outside Winterfell, so maybe Littlefinger doesn't know they're actually there yet, but that seems slightly out of character for him. Taking Sansa there to marry her off to the newly legitimized Ramsay does make some sense and contrbutes to Littlefinger's possible endgame - he'd then have the allegiance of the north and the Vale, one of the few regions whose armies were wholly uninvolved in the last war. Littlefinger telling Sansa that she's going to be safe, returning her to Winterfell, and then, oh yeah, you're marrying this guy, DOES seem totally consistent with his character.
posted by LionIndex at 10:50 AM on April 13, 2015


Littlefinger telling Sansa that she's going to be safe, returning her to Winterfell, and then, oh yeah, you're marrying this guy, DOES seem totally consistent with his character.

Totally disagree. Sansa is Littlefinger's precious, he's not going give her to anyone else but himself.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:58 AM on April 13, 2015


Sophie Turner specifically mentioned filming a traumatic scene

I feel like any interaction with super-creeper Littlefinger lands somewhere on the trauma spectrum.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:01 AM on April 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


Taking Sansa there to marry her off to the newly legitimized Ramsay does make some sense and contrbutes to Littlefinger's possible endgame

No, my guess is that they're doing that to somehow neutralize the fake-Arya plotline, because they eliminated Sansa's friend early and so would have no way to pull the switcheroo, which would leave Jon maybe rescuing a real sister instead of a fake sister?

But really this is kind of the point where the showrunner's lack of attention to detail is making things go CRAZY.
posted by corb at 11:02 AM on April 13, 2015


Totally disagree. Sansa is Littlefinger's precious, he's not going give her to anyone else but himself.

Yeah, this sounds right--she's the lookalike daughter of the one who got away (and she seems to be deliberately evoking Catelyn in the way she's now dressing, presumably for her own ends).
posted by n. moon at 11:02 AM on April 13, 2015


And Sophie Turner specifically mentioned filming a traumatic scene (though she is Lena Headey's apprentice in tweaking fan expectations). But yeah, augh.

Well, if she does end up in Winterfell, maybe she takes on a few other roles beyond Jeyne Poole's. Maybe she even ends up baking a few pies?
posted by bgal81 at 11:14 AM on April 13, 2015 [6 favorites]


.. and then she'll stop dying her hair and sail an army to Griffin's Roost
posted by xorry at 11:47 AM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Varys is also the one whosent the assassin after Dany?

I thought it was King Robert Baratheon that sent the assassins after her?
posted by royalsong at 11:49 AM on April 13, 2015




I don't have anything really constructive to add, but did anyone else get reminded of Who Framed Roger Rabbit? when Judge Doom was going "When I killed your brother, I talked... just... like... THIS!" when looking at Tywin's eyes?
posted by Green With You at 11:54 AM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't remember in the book, but in the show, Robert orders her assassinated, with all of the small council save for Ned agreeing with him. Varys is then seemingly in charge of carrying it out, as when the dying Robert changes his mind, Ned goes to Varys, and Varys says the wheels are irrevocably in motion already. It is also one of Varys's little birds who delivers Jorah's pardon in the marketplace, so yeah, I think it was mostly Varys' doing (and the assassinaiton was obviously botched. FOr all we know the "pardon" could have included details of exactly what was about to go down, etc. But we don't really have any evidence of that.)
posted by Navelgazer at 11:55 AM on April 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Did anybody else sort of think Maggy the Frog was played by Nicky from Orange is the New Black?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:15 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Maggy. Nicky.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:18 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Since the flashback barrier has been broken I DEMAND TOWER OF JOY.
posted by Justinian at 12:28 PM on April 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


Since the flashback barrier has been broken I DEMAND TOWER OF JOY.

Oberyn is dead.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:32 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Since the flashback barrier has been broken I DEMAND TOWER OF JOY.

Still wondering how they're going to get that plot point across - no ToJ, no Jojen retelling the Tourney at Harrenhall.... although I guess the books have the same problem in terms of making everyone in-universe aware of what happened - via whatshisname Reed presumably.
posted by Pink Frost at 12:36 PM on April 13, 2015


Tower of Joy is the scene Ned would always think back on, and where he found his sister with Rhaegar or whoever when he was with Howland Reed. So, Ned's dead and can't flashback to that time, but if Howland Reed ever shows up, he sure could.
posted by LionIndex at 12:37 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Has anyone said in an interview whether we can expect to see Howland Reed in the TV series? I believe GRRM has hinted we may see him in the books.
posted by Area Man at 12:39 PM on April 13, 2015


Wasn't that actually Tormund Giantsbane they kept flashing to during Mance's burning?

Ah yeah. I'm terrible with faces and I get book-plot and show-plot confused sometimes. Maybe they do a Mance/Tormund swap? *reaching*

In the books of course they think Mance is the one being burned, but Mel has magicked Rattleshirt to look like him, and vice versa.

No, my guess is that they're doing that to somehow neutralize the fake-Arya plotline, because they eliminated Sansa's friend early and so would have no way to pull the switcheroo, which would leave Jon maybe rescuing a real sister instead of a fake sister?

They could still run fake-Arya, just with someone else other than Jeyne. (And actually, Roose using a peasant girl to stand in for a Stark would be an echo of Roose/Reek advising Theon to kill the peasant boys and claim that they are the Stark boys).
posted by Pink Frost at 12:42 PM on April 13, 2015


Could they be going to Riverrun for extra creepy surrogate Catelyn Baelishness?
posted by LionIndex at 1:10 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


So, Ned's dead and can't flashback to that time

Maybe Ned told the whole story to weirwood.net, and Bran will find out?
posted by gatorae at 1:11 PM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Maybe in the show it was more like the Two- or Three-Story Building of Joy and one of the trees just saw it
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:12 PM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


Also, my bad on geography, Pentos is perfectly positioned for a trip down the Rhoyne.
posted by LionIndex at 1:18 PM on April 13, 2015


when Judge Doom was going "When I killed your brother, I talked... just... like... THIS!" when looking at Tywin's eyes?

The funky stones on the eyes thing for important corpses lying in state goes back to S1E1 with Jon Arryn, so while I always find it a little disconcerting to see, it is at least consistent.
posted by nubs at 1:37 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Another thing I noticed last night - great shot of Cersei climbing the stairs to the Sept, with the way lined by people waiting for her. Really nice set up for where that story is going.
posted by nubs at 2:14 PM on April 13, 2015 [10 favorites]


also her dress was amazing.
posted by poffin boffin at 2:26 PM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


"Let's make sweet love in front of the Weirwood tonight. I like it when trees watch."

*Bram inadvertently sees his aunt make love to a prince.*
posted by drezdn at 2:38 PM on April 13, 2015 [4 favorites]


So Missandei just couldn't imagine the Unsullied could have normal human emotions without wangs? I think Grey Worm's hopes were dashed by that question.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 3:34 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


So Missandei just couldn't imagine the Unsullied could have normal human emotions without wangs? I think Grey Worm's hopes were dashed by that question.

I mean, I thought she was basically asking "wait, Unsullied can do some sort of unspecified Stuff with women? Would you... maybe like to do some Stuff with me? Whatever it is?"
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:36 PM on April 13, 2015 [12 favorites]


Most adorable awkward pseudo-chaste couple ever!
posted by Navelgazer at 3:42 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


D'oh, I posted that in the wrong GoT thread.
posted by Kitty Stardust at 3:52 PM on April 13, 2015


I thought she was basically asking "wait, Unsullied can do some sort of unspecified Stuff with women? Would you... maybe like to do some Stuff with me? Whatever it is?"

And I think Grey Worm was reading the intent of the question differently, in terms of thinking Missandei was not apprehending the fact that the Unsullied might still like to be cuddled/have physical contact; i.e., Missandei views them as not fully human. Two people misreading the situation and each other.

Or Grey Worm doesn't want to open up about that yet, and we're going to get a few episodes of hurt feelings and such before these two kids realize they are meant for each other. Immediately afterwards, one of them gets eaten by a dragon.
posted by nubs at 4:08 PM on April 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


At least partially I'm watching the shows for clues about what's important and what's not in the books. It's sort of depressing to see stuff get pruned that I thought would have a payoff (and less depressing in other instances), but it is nice to see that the church rebellion is indeed going to matter. That's by far one of my favorite building plots in the books, and the introductory material in this episode makes it at least seem like it'll have payoff.
posted by codacorolla at 5:09 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


codacorolla - I personally had problems with the church rebellion depiction on the show; they come across as uptight yet violent "moral right" types. In the books, weren't the church rebellion fallout from having too damned many refugees in the city?

In the show, it looks like Cersei is trying to use the church/sept as her cat's paw (poorly; Margaery has better church support because she previously came across as actually kinda caring for the poor) and everyone knows that saying about glass houses, stones, and double edged swords. I can't remember the specifics on how it went down in the books, though.
posted by porpoise at 5:16 PM on April 13, 2015


From what I recall, the High Septon was definitely moral right (especially in his treatment of Cersei and the nude walk of shame). Other parts of the rebellion were motivated by a people's rebellion, and the Sept being the only faction with power that showed anything that's not contempt for the poor. I thought that was more or less how they've presented it so far. Kevan (or is it Lancel?) represents the caring for the poor aspect, and the high Septon is still a morally superior striver.

Although, it's been years since I've read the primary material, so I very well may be wrong.
posted by codacorolla at 5:26 PM on April 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


It appears that I did in fact forget an aspect of it. The guy I'm thinking of is going to get killed by Cersei relatively soon, and the guy I'm actually thinking of is going to take over for him (well, assuming it follows that part of that book).
posted by codacorolla at 5:35 PM on April 13, 2015


showbiz_liz: "The books never really sold me on why Dany didn't even TRY to train them; their size and ferocity in the show help demonstrate how they might not actually BE trainable."

In the books, they are pretty consistently said to be completely untrainable. Nobody is known to have trained one, anyway. Aegon and the rest didn't train theirs - they constrained them by magic, keeping them locked away until needed and then uttering essential incantations to bind them. Which left a sort of hanging question as to what Dany was doing with them: at first, she seemed to be actually training them naturally, but how, since the secret was not training but magic, and since she clearly doesn't have the knowledge of that magic? You start to get the feeling that there is some sort of preternaturally magical way she's connected with the dragons, of course, particularly considering the miracle of their genesis, which is maybe the most striking magical thing in the books (maybe, or at least the first). Then she begins to lose control of them - I think because she's become distracted by things that turn out to be ephemeral - before returning to them at last. I thing she's really supposed to be this special thing, someone who didn't need the old formulas but had the magic in her by nature.
posted by koeselitz at 6:11 PM on April 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Since reading the novella that outlines the Targaryen civil war, I'm pretty sure that there's something akin to warging going on with the dragons; during that war, several previously untamed/riderless dragons are claimed by non-Targaryen people when the opportunity is made available and there doesn't appear to be much reasoning to it; just some people can, and others get eaten in making the attempt.

The ability does appear to run somewhat in bloodlines, but if it is about warging with magical creatures (something, perhaps, a bit like a direwolf...) it might not work quite the same as some of the other examples we've seen. Perhaps it works a bit in both directions? So I suspect that Dany has some level of warg in her (funny, she don't look wargish) or else there's some other magic here that goes along with her relative resistance to fire and her connection with the dragons that hasn't (and likely never will) be explained.

I was thinking during this episode that the dragons being in chains is perhaps the most apt metaphor for the Mereen storyline; Dany chains herself to ruling the city, and has to chain her dragons as well; she's denying her nature, trying to control it and make it be what it isn't. She doesn't have the tools for the job she's taken on - she is a conqueror, not a ruler, a fact made wonderfully clear by her "I'm a Queen, not a politician" line (I had a Tywin echo at that line - "Anyone who has to say they're the King is no King at all") and she has lost her purpose, which is to return to Westeros. When she starts to reconnect with that in the books, she reclaims a tenuous relationship with Drogon.

I'm going to take some time to go re-read the history of Aegon the Conqueror, because the parallels with Dany seem really striking to me right now - 3 dragons, but he also had his sisters. Were the three of them together what was the right balance? One of them a conqueror, one of them a ruler, one of them another essential component in making it all work successfully? The dragon has three heads, after all.
posted by nubs at 9:52 PM on April 13, 2015 [5 favorites]


I just can't believe that they appear to be skipping over Griff. Or do they?
posted by koeselitz at 7:13 AM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Since reading the novella that outlines the Targaryen civil war, I'm pretty sure that there's something akin to warging going on with the dragons;

Huh, that must be what the Three Raven means when he tells Bran he'll never walk again, but that he will fly.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:32 AM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


The wikipedia article for season 5 doesn't list anyone being cast in that role, or as Jon Connington or anything, so it seems like Tyrion's going to have a different sort of road trip than in the books.

Curiously, in reference to the whole Mance switcheroo discussion, Rattleshirt/Lord of Bones has been re-cast for this season, so maybe he does the dirty work at Winterfell instead Mance.
posted by LionIndex at 7:41 AM on April 14, 2015


I can't tell you how much I hope to avoid the whole Tyrion the Slave Performer stuff. That was just grotesque.
posted by meese at 8:00 AM on April 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oberyn is dead.

el vive por siempre en mi corazon you monster
posted by poffin boffin at 9:10 AM on April 14, 2015 [12 favorites]


At least partially I'm watching the shows for clues about what's important and what's not in the books. It's sort of depressing to see stuff get pruned that I thought would have a payoff

I think some of the storylines that are now only in the books will have their own payoffs; more than ever these are two related but distinct pieces of entertainment and I'm deciding to just enjoy the TV series as its own thing.
posted by nubs at 9:10 AM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


el vive por siempre en mi corazon you monster

Right? The running canon among my circled is that Oberyn was badly wounded in the fight and has retired to an island in Dorne to, well, be himself and recuperate and stay out of the Westeros BS.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:15 AM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think it is possible that the Aegon storyline will be reserved till next season, and introduced in a different way. (Although it is probably more likely that it has just been cut.)
posted by ocherdraco at 10:42 AM on April 14, 2015


Thank god. And the Ironborn! I guess they couldn't get away with cutting the Dorne stuff. Too bad.
posted by Justinian at 11:23 AM on April 14, 2015


I don't understand what they are going to do with Jon's plot. If he is not responsible for the wildlings going south of the Wall (because now Stannis is), then I'm not sure what he'll really stand for, or why his men would turn against him. I suspect it will be replaced by a more facile plot that involves rape somehow. Thorne will try and rape Gilly, Jon will fight him, and it will turn into a Thorne faction versus a Jon faction.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:50 AM on April 14, 2015


Well, the offer from Stannis was "swear to me and help me win my war, then you'll get some land." To me, he wanted to treat the wildlings as another mercenary army. And so far as I know, they haven't accepted that offer - Mance refused and died, and to my eyes the Wildlings are back to a bunch of scattered tribes, many of whom are still north of the wall (the only prisoners I've seen were the ones taken in the assault on Castle Black).

So I think Jon, who has a bit better understanding of what is going on, can still come with his offer of "settle in the Gift, support the Watch, because you're human and we're human and what's out there wants to kill us both" ie, you don't get treated as mercenaries, but refugees and allies against the common foe. And from there you get the problems inside the Watch.
posted by nubs at 12:08 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think nubs has it right. With Mance gone, Jon has to become the rallying figure if the Free Folk are going to unite long enough to get through the winter. Not everybody is going to love that idea.
posted by Navelgazer at 12:32 PM on April 14, 2015


I don't think Rattleshirt gets as much prominence to play the part. Maybe Tormund instead?
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:56 PM on April 14, 2015


I don't think Rattleshirt gets as much prominence to play the part. Maybe Tormund instead?

Tormund is the basically the only living Wildling leader who viewers will recognize. I think we'll see a lot of him.
posted by Area Man at 1:28 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


the High Septon was definitely moral right (especially in his treatment of Cersei and the nude walk of shame)

It's interesting too to see what GRRM draws from - I'm pretty sure that walk was taken and twisted from Jane Shore's walk in the War of the Roses - except that Jane Shore was beloved by the people, while Cersei is very much not.
posted by corb at 2:07 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Isn't Tormund kind of the wildling leader at the wall while Mance/Abel is at Winterfell? He could still play that same role in the show, which would benefit from some familiarity. I don't know why they're even bothering to bring Rattleshirt back at all, tbh. Might as well just make up another guy and call him Wildlingus at this point. Matter of fact, there is a new wildling character this season so they've kind of already done that.
posted by LionIndex at 3:17 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


ocherdraco: I think it is possible that the Aegon storyline will be reserved till next season, and introduced in a different way. (Although it is probably more likely that it has just been cut.)

Justinian: Thank god. And the Ironborn! I guess they couldn't get away with cutting the Dorne stuff. Too bad.


I'm increasingly confused but fascinated by the whole Meerenese plot-line in the show. In the books, we have the whole of ADWD building up to the giant battle of Meeren, with the pay-off in the now-released chapters of TWOW. Griff and Aegon, Quentyn, Tyrion and Jorah, the Ironborn and the Yunkai all converging. Such a complicated plotline that GRRM had a name for the process of writing it. (And looking at that link reminds me that Marwyn is on his way too).

But from what we know/can guess of the show, half those characters don't even exist. Instead of competing fleets/armies turning up at the same time and being mistaken for each other, we'll get...what? Tyrion and Jorah, and the Yunkai? That's so completely different that I agree with nubs, we're at the point where these are two related but distinct pieces of entertainment. Which is fine by me.

(FWIW I'm with Justinian on the Aegon and Dorne storylines, at least as they stand; they don't interest me at the moment but maybe they'll have a pay-off later in the books).
posted by Pink Frost at 5:35 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm also interested to see how Cersei will perceive Margery in the show. Whether or not she is really innocent is one of my favorite things to come up with crazy fan theories about. I mean, we know some stuff is pure invention, but then there's the Moon Tea. In the show, though, everyone is pretty lackadaisical about sex. "LOL watching my brother roll around naked in bed, nbd." I feel like any accusation of impropriety will result in a big eye roll from everyone around.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:38 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


And an aside about Mance/Abel: maybe he is completely written out of the show, and instead of Abel and the spearwives doing the killing in Winterfell...it's Arya? Plenty of time for her to level up in Braavos, then return to her home and start taking revenge on those who've stolen it...(and you could then have fake Arya married to Bolton and real Arya in his base and killing his dudes).
posted by Pink Frost at 5:39 PM on April 14, 2015


I'm pretty sure we're not going to see Aegon in future seasons. Half the importance of Aegon is that he gives motive to Varys, and Varys already has Dany in the show.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:39 PM on April 14, 2015


I think it's possible an Aegon-like character shows up in Dorne.
posted by drezdn at 5:50 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, although he also reminds us of the Targ idea of having shared monarchies, setting up the reveal of Jon as the real Targ and the possibility of Dany/Jon ruling together (not sure that will happen, but pretty sure it will be at least presented as a possibility). I assume we all agree that Aegon is fake? I guess if he's not in the show that's a pretty good indication he is...
posted by Pink Frost at 5:51 PM on April 14, 2015


Is there any indication in the books that he's fake? I felt much to the contrary.

Shouldn't there be three dragons? But I guess the symbolic significance of narrative symmetry is not really the most important thing to preserve on the show. Still, the potential lack of Griff (and Mance Rayder) is disappointing to me, because I'm reading those as a hint that neither will be very prominent going forward in the books.
posted by koeselitz at 7:33 PM on April 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


(And I rather liked Griff and Mance.)
posted by koeselitz at 7:33 PM on April 14, 2015


And, fuck it, I'll say it - in the books particularly, I like anybody who isn't Jaime or Jon Snow Cersei or Sansa or Arya or even freaking mopey sad-sack Tyrion; one of GRRM's finest skills is the evocative invention of characters, and maybe the third or fourth biggest disappointment I've had in watching the show has been seeing all these fantastic supporting characters who could be entire books in themselves be relegated to pretty weak props or eliminated altogether so that people at home could watch the long-overused characters they adore prance around. This is why A Feast For Crows was the best of the books: because a difficult narrative shift forced GRRM to write a swath of new characters to provide the fabric to fill in the space and connect the threads. What I wouldn't do to have Aeron on the show.

But of course some stuff is going to get cut out. Still, I wonder sometimes what the show could have been like if they'd stuck closer to the narrative structure of GRRM's chapters. I would really like a show of which every episode is an apparently separate short story told from one character's perspective, and if the links between all of them were difficult to pick out but present for those paying attention, although not as primary as any given single story or perspective. It seems like the biggest sacrifices are made for some sort of narrative cohesiveness to please the fans who want something they can follow. It would be really cool to see a show like this try not maki that sacrifice.
posted by koeselitz at 7:42 PM on April 14, 2015 [6 favorites]


And even when the show invents things, it does so to advance the narrative structure, and it does so in a sometimes alarmingly exploitative way. The invented-for-the-show rape-and-murder scenes in the hut last season were completely gratuitous and made me so incredibly frustrated and angry that the only reason I didn't quit the show was because it's something my girlfriend and I watch together. I don't remember the last time I've cursed at the screen so much. I really hope this season picks things up a bit.
posted by koeselitz at 7:46 PM on April 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh yeah the dragons in the underneath :-/ That was when I lost all sympathy for Dany.
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:58 PM on April 14, 2015


Though I really didn't like ADwD (I actually love AFfC, but I know I'm weird there, and I didn't love all of it) I'm frustrated by the show for making such a divergence from the books here. Not because I loved what was going on (I mostly loved the stuff surrounding Cersie and Arya, which seems to be being kept) but because the other stuff, with the Ironborn and the Kingsmoot, the multiple parties heading towards Meereen to parley with Dany, the shenanigans in Dorne with Myrcella, the machinations in Meereen itself, etc... it all seemed like stuff that was maddeningly dense with new characters and obfuscation on the page, but which could play gangbusters on screen. Faces are easier to remember than names, after all.

I wish we'd gotten to see it.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:58 PM on April 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


I don't think it was possible to do those storylines. I don't mean for artistic reasons or whatever (though those do exist) but on a purely practical level. It simply wouldn't be possible to afford to include all those new characters and plotlines either time or money wise.
posted by Justinian at 10:37 PM on April 14, 2015


Including new plotlines and new characters is pretty cheap, isn't it? In the grand scheme, with a show this big that's paying enough extras as it is, it seems utterly negligible. The reason they don't include those storylines isn't to save money. It's because they're deeply and closely wedded to a conventional television show that is an easily followed story about the same characters every week, which is what they know most people will pay to see.

It would have been easy enough, though, to have every episode be like the books, in the respect of the reader being confused until about halfway through the chapter as to what was actually happening where, and then gradually putting the pieces together. And that would have been really interesting, I think. But far fewer people are willing to accept that kind of mind-stretching and lack of clear linearity in a television show than a book.
posted by koeselitz at 2:07 AM on April 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


Is there any indication in the books that he's fake? I felt much to the contrary.

There's a couple of clues - Dany dreams of cloth dragons - 'mummers' dragons' and Quaithe warns her of everyone coming to Meereen - "The lion and the kraken, the griffin and the black flame, the suns son and the mummers dragon. The lion being Tyrion, the Kraken being Victarion, Griffin being Connington, black flame being Moqorro, suns son being Quentyn and finally the mummers dragon being Aegon." (see here). Could all be misdirection of course.

Shouldn't there be three dragons? But I guess the symbolic significance of narrative symmetry is not really the most important thing to preserve on the show. Still, the potential lack of Griff (and Mance Rayder) is disappointing to me, because I'm reading those as a hint that neither will be very prominent going forward in the books.

Yeah. Not clear who the third is, of course (my money's on Tyrion, but then I think everyone's a secret Targ except the person who actually claims to be one :)). Agreed about Mance, anyway.
posted by Pink Frost at 2:32 AM on April 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


She locked up two after one flew off. That's why there are two dragons in the dungeon (I almost said dungeons in the dragon, wtf brain?).
posted by tilde at 6:29 AM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's unclear when The Winds of Winter will come out

Half past never.

Also, that's not Kevan Lannister, that's Lancel. Kevan is Lancel's dad.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 7:28 AM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Shouldn't there be three dragons?

Drogon flew off, the other two got chained in the dungeon. Which is what happened in the books, because Drogon gets to make a big entrance later on. And if we take the dragons as symbolic of Dany (like the wolves are for the Stark children), you have her chained down in Meeren, while part of her longs to fly free.

it all seemed like stuff that was maddeningly dense with new characters and obfuscation on the page, but which could play gangbusters on screen. Faces are easier to remember than names, after all.

I wish we'd gotten to see it.


Part of me does; particularly the Ironborn stuff (in part because I think the Ironborn are one of the most interesting storylines/cultures in the books). But I'm just imagining how much screen time it would take up - introduce all the characters, get them in motion, get them where they are going - even with some really tight writing, other storylines really suffer as a result. Setting up what is coming in the North is going to take a bit, I think.

I always use my wife as a gauge - she loves the show, but hasn't read the books. So when I see her confused and trying to remember who is who and what is going on, I take it as an indication of where the show might need to spend more time to build things out for the plotlines to come. She's still a bit mystified as to who Stannis is whenever he shows up (though she remembers that he wants to be king, but not the basis of his claim and last year was confused as to why he wouldn't have been at Joffrey's wedding as she thought he was an excellent suspect for the poisoning. That was a fun conversation. "I think it was likely the Tyrells, maybe Tywin, or Stannis." "Ok, but how? Who would have done that for Stannis?" "Well, either he or that guy with no fingers or the fire woman could've -" "They weren't there." "Why not? Why wouldn't they come to the big royal wedding?" "Um, because they are at war with that King and don't recognize his legitmacy?" "Still, you'd think -" "They'd come and get arrested for treason?" (and just re-reading this, I want to make clear that my wife is a very smart, insightful woman but one for whom the ins and outs of politics, and particularly medieval politics, holds little interest)), and while we haven't seen them yet, I expect that the Boltons will prompt a bit of similar confusion and a need to be reminded of who exactly Ramsay is (although I think she got firm on who Roose was at the Red Wedding).

Anyways, I'm just picturing the need for her to also have to juggle knowing the Ironborn and the Yunkai and the Dornish players and the whole Aegon bit (because, in all honesty, I don't think many of the show watchers really understand the whole Targaryen family tree and what exactly happened during Robert's rebellion; i.e., knowing that Dany is Aerys' daughter and than Aegon is Rhaegar's son and what that means for the line of succession) and am somewhat relieved, to be honest.
posted by nubs at 8:46 AM on April 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


I can't remember if Balon has died on the show yet. If he has, Euron is supposed to show up the very next day trying to be king of the Ironborn. So, if Balon's been dead the last season or two, as far as getting all the other Greyjoys into the show, um, that ship has sailed.
posted by LionIndex at 9:15 AM on April 15, 2015


Balon is apparently still alive?

If they wanted to bring Euron in (which they should do because Euron is amazing in his horribleness) they could have him show up to turn the tide in Meereen (it doesn't sound like they're going to do that though).
posted by drezdn at 9:33 AM on April 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


I couldn't disagree more with the idea that the TV show is somehow pandering to lazy, inattentive viewers by not including all the assorted riff-raff introduced in books 4 and 5. The show would be an absolute train-wreck if they didn't drastically pair down the characters and plotlines, unless they literally started doing 40 hours per book. Even at 20 episodes per season, there wouldn't be time for more each character to be featured more than once per season.

I guess it probably comes down to how you feel about the direction of the series, if you think that GRRM's done well and is on pace to make a coherent 7 book series, then all the show's cutting is at best a necessary evil. But I'm definitely one of those people that thinks he's gone off the rails since book 3 and is basically lost. I think he doesn't really have the desire to write the series that he started, he's bored with that. Which is understandable, he started 20 years ago, people change and get tired of things that used to interest them. But if that means he's going to write 800 pages about the Ironborn society and religion in order to deliver this silly deus ex machina dragon horn, I think it's the right move by the showrunners to just ask GRRM "who ends up with the horn? Can we replace it with like a spell Dany learns on a vision quest or something like that?".
posted by skewed at 10:17 AM on April 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


Including new plotlines and new characters is pretty cheap, isn't it? In the grand scheme, with a show this big that's paying enough extras as it is, it seems utterly negligible.

It's not at all negligible. It's the biggest expense the show can take on.
posted by Justinian at 11:40 AM on April 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


Thank god. And the Ironborn! I guess they couldn't get away with cutting the Dorne stuff. Too bad.

Dorne means not only more non-white people on the show, which really really really helps with the optics of Dany as the white savior rescuing all them brown peoples from their slavin' savagery, but also because it means Indira Varma and Alexander Siddig.

Indira Varma.

Alexander Siddig.

And they filmed chunks of the actual Dorne bits in the fucking Alcazar in Seville.

We could do 7 seasons of 26 episodes each, plus a movie franchise, and I'd still be like TELL ME MORE ABOUT DORNISH FOLK SONGS GIVE ME ANOTHER SHOT OF INDIRA VARMA LOOKING REVENGEFUL IN FRONT OF AN ORANGE TREE.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:47 AM on April 15, 2015 [11 favorites]


Justinian: “It's not at all negligible. It's the biggest expense the show can take on.”

Well, I was thinking strictly plotlines, and really plotlines don't seem to cost anything in and of themselves; you can write whatever you want and have the characters say whatever you want, and if that's the only thing that changes, it's not much. But thinking about it, shooting Ironborn scenes and Dorne scenes and scenes in this location and that location all over the place is probably the biggest expense, I would imagine. They're already stretching themselves, filming as many places as they can, and still having to find locations that are diverse enough to offer a broad range of diverse environments within a close proximity to each other. And moving more actors to more places... yeah, I can see how that would be expensive.

me: “Shouldn't there be three dragons?”

nubs: “Drogon flew off, the other two got chained in the dungeon. Which is what happened in the books, because Drogon gets to make a big entrance later on. And if we take the dragons as symbolic of Dany (like the wolves are for the Stark children), you have her chained down in Meeren, while part of her longs to fly free.”

Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. I wasn't talking about literal dragons. I was talking about the symbology, at least the symbology popular among some fans which I at least kind of buy: the three dragons symbolize three Targaryan nobles poised to return to take the throne: Daenerys (clearly), Aegon (which is who Young Griff claims to be, although Pink Frost casts doubt on this above) and Jon Snow (through his secret mother – a fan theory, but it's convincing enough to me.) I meant "shouldn't there be three dragons?" in the sense of "how can they cut Griff / Aegon out of the story if he's supposed to be one of the three important dragons?"

But that's probably me reaching because I like these particular characters.
posted by koeselitz at 1:30 PM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh yeah the dragons in the underneath :-/ That was when I lost all sympathy for Dany.

Except his dragons, specifically the biggest one, Drogon, is charged with killing at least one child. Dany can't control her dragons, and if she's not careful, they could turn all her people against her, or create a schism between those who still support her for various reasons, and those who feel like she's not the right person to lead them (partially out of fear of dragons burning them and their children), truly bringing chaos to the lands she claims to control. Dany chose her people over her dragons.


I agree that there are considerably interesting storyline missing. Yara's attempt for power at the kingsmoot, along with crazy religious Aeron and the godless Euron Crow's Eye, with their respective posses, would have been a lot of fun to see.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:32 PM on April 15, 2015 [5 favorites]


skewed: “Even at 20 episodes per season, there wouldn't be time for more each character to be featured more than once per season.”

Heh. Well, that's what I would absolutely love: a show where each character is featured no more than once per season. That would be an incredibly interesting show (to me personally, anyway). But I can see how most people would really not want to watch that kind of television.
posted by koeselitz at 1:33 PM on April 15, 2015


I couldn't disagree more with the idea that the TV show is somehow pandering to lazy, inattentive viewers by not including all the assorted riff-raff introduced in books 4 and 5.

I don't see the viewers as lazy or inattentive - in fact, I find them all to be quite the opposite. What I am seeing is some limits to how much complexity in terms of cast and storylines that the audience can cope with given the hour long episode, 10 episode season; you can sprawl in the books because I can slow my pace of reading, flip back and forth, etc. When watching TV, you don't have that luxury - for the hour you are in front of the screen the story is going to move forward and if you can't keep straight what is going on, you won't stick around long.
posted by nubs at 2:40 PM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Sorry, I wasn't very clear there. I wasn't talking about literal dragons. I was talking about the symbology, at least the symbology popular among some fans which I at least kind of buy: the three dragons symbolize three Targaryan nobles poised to return to take the throne: Daenerys (clearly), Aegon (which is who Young Griff claims to be, although Pink Frost casts doubt on this above) and Jon Snow (through his secret mother – a fan theory, but it's convincing enough to me.) I meant "shouldn't there be three dragons?" in the sense of "how can they cut Griff / Aegon out of the story if he's supposed to be one of the three important dragons?"

Ah, I get your point. And my memory is hazy - has the "dragon has three heads" line been on the show? Regardless, she still needs two other dragon riders.
posted by nubs at 2:41 PM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


The other two riders have to be Jon Snow and Tyrion, right? The hints in the books are strong, and while I wouldn't put it past GRRM to be like LOL MISDIRECTION FOOLED YOU ALL over the heavy hints we've been getting that Tyrion isn't Tywin's biological son/is properly Targaryen-ly obsessed with dragons and and all the hints about who Jon Snow's actual parents are, the premiere of the season is consistent with these theories -- Tyrion going to Mereen is Important, and Dany is having Problems controling her dragons in Mereen, and blood-and-fire obsessed Melisandre sees something special in blood-of-kings, inheritor-of-Targaryen-fire-but-apparently-not-his-legendary-hottie-father's-good-looks-sigh Jon Snow.

I'm super intrigued by the idea that you control a dragon by warging into it. :D
posted by joyceanmachine at 4:02 PM on April 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


That would suggest Bran could control a dragon, no?
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 4:09 PM on April 15, 2015


i hope the 2 other dragonriders are pod and shireen.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:37 PM on April 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm thinking that, at some point, someone is going to have to go into the Chaos of Old Valyria for some such reason. Indeed, I would imagine that's where a lot of our answers are going to come from RE: the others, dragons, magic returning to the world, and the reason that it takes 3 years for fall to happen.

However, GRRM has said that it may or may not happen (or may happen as a flashback).
posted by codacorolla at 5:50 PM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


To go back to what people were talking about upthread: I don't think they could give Sansa Jeyne Poole's story without giving me (and most of the world) a nervous breakdown, which means they are probably going to do that very thing, and -- and -- I strongly suspect, give Mance Rayder's story to Jon. Would anyone at Winterfell know what Jon looked like?
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:51 PM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


If Melisandre is still playing a similar roll, then she might be able to Magick Jon's appearance... especially since he probably has the blood of kings. Isn't it implied that this is what happened with Rattleshirt anyway?
posted by codacorolla at 5:53 PM on April 15, 2015


Huh - I could definitely see Mance's role given to Jon.

Sansa: first Joffery, then Robyn. Then... Ramsay Bolton?

Out of the pan and into the porridge, and from the porridge into the fire?
posted by porpoise at 5:55 PM on April 15, 2015


Re: different ways of doing the show.

How about a re-boot? Do it in ten years or so, you'd be able to make it much more complex because everyone's familiar with the basic plot and characters. And you'd be able to make it much more faithful to the books, because they'd actually be finished* by the time the re-boot came out.

Get Peter Jackson to direct, film most of it in NZ, have about 20 episodes per series and use some fancy new interactive technology so that people can seamlessly pause the show and pull up a synopsis of who a particular character is and what they should know about them. Simple. [I'm being facetious, but only slightly]

*Well, maybe.
posted by Pink Frost at 6:14 PM on April 15, 2015 [2 favorites]


the heavy hints we've been getting that Tyrion isn't Tywin's biological son

I've seen this theory batted around a lot, and there is some material in the books to support it or at least make it possible, but I hope this turns out to not be the case... Tyrion the secret Targ instead of Tywin's biological son robs the whole story of their relationship of its resonance, IMO.

I'm mostly okay with the streamlining the show does, and was happy with this episode. I'm actually excited to see what this season does considering that they're going to have to move past the books to have certain characters keep appearing throughout (Sansa comes to mind), but I am disappointed to lose Mance.
posted by Kosh at 6:18 PM on April 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I would be quite surprised if it turned out to be true.
posted by Justinian at 7:05 PM on April 15, 2015


Tyrion the secret Targ instead of Tywin's biological son robs the whole story of their relationship of its resonance, IMO.

Yeah, this. It robs Tyrion of so much; not just the relationship with Tywin and the fact that Tyrion is truly the most similar of the Lannister children to his father, but it removes a lot from the relationships between the siblings as well. Plus having another secret Targ running around would just start to be overkill.
posted by nubs at 9:40 PM on April 15, 2015 [4 favorites]


Yeah, this. It robs Tyrion of so much; not just the relationship with Tywin and the fact that Tyrion is truly the most similar of the Lannister children to his father, but it removes a lot from the relationships between the siblings as well. Plus having another secret Targ running around would just start to be overkill.

This is GRRM. We remember his maximalist attitude towards having additional feast descriptions, additional extraneous-ass plotlines, and additional murder-weddings, right?

But yeah, I agree that Tyrion is more satisfyingly read as Tywin's biological son, and not the product of rape of Mrs. Lannister by the Mad King or what have you, as has been hinted. It tells a good and very emtionally true, I think, story about how fucked up biological families can be and the whys and hows and wherefores and stories they tell about turning on each other.

On the other hand, remember the way that Dance played the answer to Tywin being asked, straight-up, whether Tyrion was his son? Plus, it creates a neat parallel between Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister -- both secretly biologically not-related to the parent-ish figures who raised them, both seemingly barred by some accident of birth that keeps them from assuming the leadership that GRRM believes they deserve, and, well, the neatness of Danerys riding back into Westeros on the back of a dragon, a half-Stark, half-Targaryen on one side, a half-Lannister, half-Targaryen on the other, bringing in a new world order?

That's the kind of tidy, shoulda-seen-it-coming twist that I do think GRRM enjoys. Or rather, did back when he cared about writing these books.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:22 AM on April 16, 2015 [3 favorites]


Plus, it creates a neat parallel between Jon Snow and Tyrion Lannister

I hate the Tyrion-is-a-secret-Targ thing, too, for all the same reasons that you mention. The ONLY thing that gives me pause and makes me think it could be true is the whole relationship/bonding experience that Tyrion and Jon had at the wall so very, very early on in the story. It would be a pretty neat bookend of their stories if it turned out they were family all along.
posted by gatorae at 8:07 AM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


the neatness of Danerys riding back into Westeros on the back of a dragon, a half-Stark, half-Targaryen on one side, a half-Lannister, half-Targaryen on the other, bringing in a new world order?


Or the neatness of a full Targ (Dany); a half-Stark, half-Targaryen (Jon); and a full Stark (Bran)? There's a Song of Ice and Fire right there. (And I really need to pick up my "World of Ice & Fire" again; there is a bit in there about how the Endless Night only stopped because a diverse group of tribes joined together to sing, which has me looking at the group of warring houses in a different light).

But seriously, I don't know what twists are in store, and you could be right. I hope not because I think it's more satisfying if Tyrion achieves whatever station or end point as a result of his abilities and not his name, but what the heck.

Or we could all be wrong and everyone in Westeros is going to die horribly and the final book will be GRRM's half-joke of a thousand pages of winds blowing across the graves.
posted by nubs at 8:36 AM on April 16, 2015


Or we could all be wrong and everyone in Westeros is going to die horribly and the final book will be GRRM's half-joke of a thousand pages of winds blowing across the graves.

That's what I'm rooting for at this point.
posted by codacorolla at 9:08 AM on April 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


But yeah, I agree that Tyrion is more satisfyingly read as Tywin's biological son, and not the product of rape of Mrs. Lannister by the Mad King or what have you, as has been hinted. It tells a good and very emtionally true, I think, story about how fucked up biological families can be and the whys and hows and wherefores and stories they tell about turning on each other.

My particular fan theory about all this is that Tyrion is Tywin's known biological son - that they both knew Joanna was pregnant when she went to court - but that because Tywin failed to protect Joanna well enough in the course of protecting his political interests, she was raped relatively violently and Tywin, at least, doesn't know if the rape is what caused Tyrion to be born a dwarf, or caused her to be damaged internally such that she died in childbed. In which case he's constantly torn by the guilt of 'maybe it is my fault' or of offloading the guilt onto this physically deformed child that makes a convenient scapegoat, even though the physically deformed child is his truest son, the son that had he allowed, would have been a comfort in his old age and someone to be proud of.
posted by corb at 9:21 AM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah I really don't think Tyrion could possibly be a believable Targaryen. Just makes no sense. Tywin repudiated him because he's a dwarf, not because he has actual doubts of parentage--the doubt is only that Tywin The Magnificent could possibly have created a 'monster.'

Dany takes the throne, Jon dies nobly, Tyrion becomes the new Varys,
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:25 AM on April 16, 2015


Especially if he starts it with something like:

"A wind rose in the Mountains of Dorne to blow across the field of graves. The wind was not the beginning. There are neither beginnings nor endings to the Song of Ice and Fire. But it was an ending, for words are wind, and enough words had been spilt over the fate of this world and in the theories of its fans, to create a wind that would scour the earth..."
posted by nubs at 9:26 AM on April 16, 2015 [6 favorites]


In which case he's constantly torn by the guilt of 'maybe it is my fault' or of offloading the guilt onto this physically deformed child that makes a convenient scapegoat,

I think it comes simply down to the fact that Tywin very deeply loved Joanna, and his grief at her passing has manifested in his anger at his son. I don't think there's anything more complicated than that. At least I hope not; the backstory of everyone in this world seems so steeped in tragedy and horrible violence (often sexual) that it would be nice to think that Tywin's particular brand of mental and emotional torture is just the result of losing the one person he loved the most in childbirth.

(And because I can't stop myself from scouring the earth with the wind generated by my words - if the Tyrion is a secret Targ by rape of Joanna is true, it adds another layer of connection with Jon Snow, in terms of both births causing the death of the mother).
posted by nubs at 9:39 AM on April 16, 2015


I think Tywin's also pissy with Tyrion because in addition to losing his wife, Tywin has also lost his preferred heir, since Jaime is a Kingsguard. I think that's more the reasonong behind the "not my son" business than Joanna / Targ stuff.
posted by LionIndex at 2:30 PM on April 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


In my headcanon, at least, Jaime and Cersei are Targaryens -- incest is a family tradition! -- and Tyrion is Tywin's only real heir.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:28 PM on April 16, 2015 [4 favorites]


NEW FANTHEORY FOR THE WIN
posted by corb at 4:47 PM on April 16, 2015


My new favorite theory: The weirwood is alive... AND EVIL!
posted by drezdn at 5:46 PM on April 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


why couldn't the eagles just carry daenerys right to mordor
posted by poffin boffin at 6:10 PM on April 16, 2015 [7 favorites]


why couldn't the eagles just carry daenerys right to mordor

Union rules; eagles can't take jobs away from dragons.

But I believe the eagles could take everyone else to Mordor. Even Moon Boy, for all I know.
posted by nubs at 8:32 PM on April 17, 2015 [5 favorites]


Can we just say that in addition to, yes, Varys and Illyrio chatting in secret in season one, Varys is also the one whosent the assassin after Dany? Because that little inconsistency is going to bug me if we're going for a long-con right now.

Addressed over on Grantland:

"The important thing to realize about the Varys/Illyrio conspiracy is that its focus was originally on Dany’s brother Viserys. The whole idea behind marrying Dany off to Khal Drogo was to obtain an army of Dothraki on whose tanned, rippling backs Viserys would ride to Westeros, taking his place as its rightful ruler. The main obstacle to that plan, besides Viserys lacking the political skills to win Drogo’s respect and support, is that the Dothraki fear the open sea, referring to the water as “poison water,” and refuse to sail on ships. Varys probably didn’t want to send the assassin, but he may have figured that Dany’s death would enrage Drogo to the extent that he would take his khalasar across the Narrow Sea seeking revenge.

Drogo killed Viserys unexpectedly, just one episode before the attempt on Dany’s life, by which time the wheels of Robert’s kill order were probably already in motion. "
posted by nubs at 6:41 PM on April 25, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hey, I'm seeing on the non-books-included thread that some people thought they heard Arya say 'Not today.' I've been rewatching on HBO go and can't see it. Anyone know what they're talking about?
posted by corb at 11:10 AM on April 26, 2015 [1 favorite]


One thing I thing has been bothering me about the show- the lack of wolves. In the books, there is a suggestion that Arya and Jon at least dream as their wolves, and I thought (though my memory of the books is fading; I would kill for a clif notes of each book) that Jon warged into something on the other side of the wall.

My complaint/concern is that seemed important. That later they'd need to use it with the dragons, or perhaps unite an army of beasts. Without it in the show, will it be irrelevent? Or is it something they'll just pop in later?

Which is the other thing that is making me sad- theoretically, the show is building to Martin's endgame. Does that mean all the other plot lines from the book will turn out to be wasted false leads?

I heard the Tyrion is a secret targ by rape, and while plausible, I agree it would really be emotionally empty. I hope they don't go there.

I do wonder if Martin's apparent lack on interest in finishing is because fans have figured out what we're meant to be plot twists. Everyone "knows" Jon Snow's parentage to the point of it being a given now. Almost every fan theory treats it like its canon. I'm sure many show watchers have inadvertently heard it too.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 11:42 AM on April 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


I could actually see that - in part because the internet let everyone put it together and disseminate. I think that was meant to be a climactic reveal, but now it will have almost no emotional impact, because we've been expecting it for so long. So what is he going to replace that with?
posted by corb at 11:44 AM on April 27, 2015


Hey, I'm seeing on the non-books-included thread that some people thought they heard Arya say 'Not today.' I've been rewatching on HBO go and can't see it. Anyone know what they're talking about?

Which scene? I've got a version with subtitles, will have a look.

One thing I thing has been bothering me about the show- the lack of wolves. In the books, there is a suggestion that Arya and Jon at least dream as their wolves, and I thought (though my memory of the books is fading; I would kill for a clif notes of each book) that Jon warged into something on the other side of the wall.

You want the Wiki of Ice and Fire for book summaries (site is 503 at the moment for me, but it's exactly what you need). Good point about the wolves - not only what you mention, but also Bran spends increasing time as a wolf on his journey north, to the extent that there's concern that he might not come back.
posted by Pink Frost at 1:16 PM on April 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


« Older Outlander: By the Pricking of ...   |  Avatar: The Last Airbender: Th... Newer »

You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments