Hannibal: Aperitivo
June 25, 2015 8:06 PM - Season 3, Episode 4 - Subscribe
Will builds something with a welding mask on, Mason takes his mask off, Alana's lipstick is on point. All this and more, tonight, on Hannibal
This post was deleted for the following reason: Poster's Request -- frimble
BECAUSE I WANTED TO RUN AWAY WITH HIM
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
"TO HAVE THE MANSEX," will graham inexplicably failed to elaborate
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [13 favorites]
AHURA MAZDA TAKE THE WHEEL
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
help me
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Ahhhhhhh!! I'm only about 20 min in but I had to come check to see what y'all were saying. That first 20 minutes!! Ahhhhhhh!!!
posted by pearlybob at 8:09 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by pearlybob at 8:09 PM on June 25, 2015
so did you like it pb
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:09 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:09 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Will was fixing the boat motor in his very first post-hospital scene. He was planning to do this since the beginning of the episode!
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:10 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:10 PM on June 25, 2015
au secours
posted by poffin boffin at 8:10 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by poffin boffin at 8:10 PM on June 25, 2015
That surgery scene was something else.
posted by codacorolla at 8:10 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by codacorolla at 8:10 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also: I really like how unhinged Will seems here, because it makes his behavior in the last two episodes much more explicable. In those episodes we're in his POV, but in this episode, we're seeing him like other people see him.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:11 PM on June 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:11 PM on June 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
we're seeing him like other people see him
moist and unstable
posted by poffin boffin at 8:13 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
moist and unstable
posted by poffin boffin at 8:13 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Poor lonely Chilton! I'LL be his friend!
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:13 PM on June 25, 2015 [11 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:13 PM on June 25, 2015 [11 favorites]
Color saturation is crazy. This sure is a good example to air after news of the cancelation. Still only halfway through...
posted by pearlybob at 8:15 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by pearlybob at 8:15 PM on June 25, 2015
One, Vampire Alana Hell Bent On Revenge, we called it.
Two, ahaha it's not even remotely subtext.
This week, Hannibal The Fanwork Explores What If Fics.
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Two, ahaha it's not even remotely subtext.
This week, Hannibal The Fanwork Explores What If Fics.
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
The fact that Chilton owns the copyright on 'Hannibal the Cannibal' just brings so much joy to my heart you guys
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:17 PM on June 25, 2015 [22 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:17 PM on June 25, 2015 [22 favorites]
joy is not what will make it tasty so well done indeed.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:18 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by poffin boffin at 8:18 PM on June 25, 2015
I can't lie, the pace of the previous two episodes had me a little antsy, but I am so un-antsed right now
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:19 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:19 PM on June 25, 2015
OKAY BUT FOR REALS Alana's new STRAIGHT HARD LINES in her clothing to match her STRAIGHT HARD MURDEROUS PURPOSE, no more soft yielding wrap dresses, only MURDER RED and maybe even a sword cane, who even knows.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:19 PM on June 25, 2015 [13 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:19 PM on June 25, 2015 [13 favorites]
HE SENT THE POEM YOU U GUYS BOOOOOOK STUUUUUF
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
ALANA DOING CLARICE'S LINES
posted by poffin boffin at 8:20 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:20 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
So much book stuff. Right down to the service road a mile away...
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:20 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:20 PM on June 25, 2015
ALANA IS NOW DRIVING A TANK
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
You guys I had not read any of the books two weeks ago and now I have read three of them
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:21 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:21 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I liked that Chilton was just trying to recruit people like the world's worst Nick Fury for The Revengers
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on June 25, 2015 [37 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on June 25, 2015 [37 favorites]
Nick Irritation
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:23 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:23 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
read them all and also i want to know more about the silly vampire story.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:23 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:23 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I like how everything is set up now for two solid episodes of action
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
So uh, "this can be your entrance" huh
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:28 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:28 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
If Alana and Margot hook up then we're one step closer to making that dream-fivesome a reality
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:28 PM on June 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:28 PM on June 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
Also that little line from Jack at the funeral seems to lead into the Will is suicidal idea
posted by The Whelk at 8:29 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by The Whelk at 8:29 PM on June 25, 2015
What a great use of Chilton by the way, to make him be the thread connecting these many disparate characters who don't want to talk to each other anymore. Only he would still be trying to talk to them all, because he's scheming and also lonely. It both solves a tricky screenwriting problem and expands on his character.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:32 PM on June 25, 2015 [20 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:32 PM on June 25, 2015 [20 favorites]
Hey Alana, your bloodthirsty desire for revenge at any cost while teaming up with the pedophile murderer for Old Testament vengeance? Hannibal's little vampire training school for gifted art murderers has totally paid off then.
posted by The Whelk at 8:33 PM on June 25, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:33 PM on June 25, 2015 [12 favorites]
I love how Chilton somehow managed to have totally wormy righteous anger.
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Rrrrrrrraul, darling, so happy you’re back! C'mon, everybody sing:
Someone to murder your nurse
Someone to frame you too well
Someone to cut out your guts
To shoot up your face
To put you through hell
But still you survive
Being alive
I'm missing Michael Pitt in a big way, though.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:34 PM on June 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
Someone to murder your nurse
Someone to frame you too well
Someone to cut out your guts
To shoot up your face
To put you through hell
But still you survive
Being alive
I'm missing Michael Pitt in a big way, though.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:34 PM on June 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
I'm sad they didn't get Gary Oldman to reprise the role tbh.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:36 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by poffin boffin at 8:36 PM on June 25, 2015
The new guy has really good Crazy Eyes tho.
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am loving Alana's new look tho
posted by likeatoaster at 8:41 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by likeatoaster at 8:41 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Good point, and I'm not sure Pitt could pull off the born-again malarkey.
Btw, Suits had some cute Silence of the Lambs riffing last night that unfortunately did not involve Gina Torres but did involve Jere Burns, so there's that.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:41 PM on June 25, 2015
Btw, Suits had some cute Silence of the Lambs riffing last night that unfortunately did not involve Gina Torres but did involve Jere Burns, so there's that.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:41 PM on June 25, 2015
It's interesting that Hannibal seemingly intentionally maimed Alana, Verger, and Will but stopped short of killing them, but Jack (and possibly Chilton) were supposed to be dead but either saved themselves or got lucky. Not killing both is going to be something that Hannibal presumably regrets for a long time.
posted by codacorolla at 8:48 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 8:48 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Oh Chilton just shedding body parts every season
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
"Kindly wheel yourself the fuck out of here, Alana Bloom, so that my revenant surrogate murder-kid and I can be alone," ha ha ha. Will's so much fun when he gets snippy.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:49 PM on June 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:49 PM on June 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
help help I have all these feelings and I am not okay
posted by Stacey at 8:49 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 8:49 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Let me hold you Stacey
Yes come closer
*knifeguts*
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:51 PM on June 25, 2015 [11 favorites]
Yes come closer
*knifeguts*
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:51 PM on June 25, 2015 [11 favorites]
Hannibal didn't maim Alana, though. Abigail did. I'm sure Hannibal feels quite wide-eyed and innocent about it.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:52 PM on June 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 8:52 PM on June 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
Okay but can you just wait until I'm done writing the lyrics to "Don't Rain on My (Murder) Parade" for Will to sing a la Barbra on the boat in Funny Girl?
posted by Stacey at 8:53 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Stacey at 8:53 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
TECHNICALLY YOU DID IT, ABIGAIL. TECHNICALLY.
posted by Stacey at 8:54 PM on June 25, 2015 [14 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 8:54 PM on June 25, 2015 [14 favorites]
"Hey, Doctuh Leeeeeeectuuuuuuuuuuuuh, here I am!"
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:55 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:55 PM on June 25, 2015
At this point I fully expect Will and Hannibal to dance an aggressive dream tango
posted by The Whelk at 8:59 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:59 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
Ah, that's right. There are a few details I'm fuzzy on since I've only seen S2 one time through.
posted by codacorolla at 8:59 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by codacorolla at 8:59 PM on June 25, 2015
LFJLSEFJO:ISEJFOIESJFE
posted by sparkletone at 9:01 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 9:01 PM on June 25, 2015
Please oh please can I have Cell Block Tango as performed by The Murder Husbands and the Windigo, from adjoining therapy cages?
posted by Stacey at 9:02 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 9:02 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
So Will partly made that phone call last season to make sure Hannibal left before Will got there... because if he was still there when Will got there, Will didn't know what he would wind up doing
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:02 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:02 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
Please oh please can I have Cell Block Tango as performed by The Murder Husbands and the Windigo, from adjoining therapy cages?
There isn't a thing about this I'm not wildly into
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:03 PM on June 25, 2015
There isn't a thing about this I'm not wildly into
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:03 PM on June 25, 2015
cut!
crush!
shoot!
bite!
(Incoherent moaning)
that kind of party!
posted by The Whelk at 9:03 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
crush!
shoot!
bite!
(Incoherent moaning)
that kind of party!
posted by The Whelk at 9:03 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
oh my god i forgot my plan to ring random people in the dead of night and say with quiet urgency THEY KNOW
posted by poffin boffin at 9:05 PM on June 25, 2015 [19 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 9:05 PM on June 25, 2015 [19 favorites]
dishonor on my cow
posted by poffin boffin at 9:05 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by poffin boffin at 9:05 PM on June 25, 2015
help help I have all these feelings and I am not okay
Don't worry; it's just all the marrow in your blood.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:06 PM on June 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
Don't worry; it's just all the marrow in your blood.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:06 PM on June 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
So Will partly made that phone call last season to make sure Hannibal left before Will got there... because if he was still there when Will got there, Will didn't know what he would wind up doing
I mean, it's in the "not your life, no" part, but Will not decided at the last second to give Hannibal the chance to escape....realized tonight cause he
Wanted
To run
Away
With him
It's like a shipper's buffet.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean, it's in the "not your life, no" part, but Will not decided at the last second to give Hannibal the chance to escape....realized tonight cause he
Wanted
To run
Away
With him
It's like a shipper's buffet.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean "I guess you can say we broke up because of artistic differences - he saw himself as alive and I saw him dead" IS basically Hannibal's entire deal. I can practically hear it in his Lithuanian drawl.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [8 favorites]
At this point if Hannibal and Will traded song fragments while dancing in leather and Fosse' inspired dance numbers it would completely fit
posted by The Whelk at 9:13 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:13 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Is Mason Verger the Tony Stark of this group? Is Jack Captain America? Who is Thor!?
posted by codacorolla at 9:13 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by codacorolla at 9:13 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
If Pushing Daisies can have completely fourth-wall-breaking musical numbers, I don't see why Hannibal can't
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:15 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:15 PM on June 25, 2015 [4 favorites]
I was actually wondering, if you went through this season and compared "things that are actually happening" to "eerie visions and hallucinations," whether you might have more of the latter. And that's even if you count flashbacks as "actually happening."
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:16 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:16 PM on June 25, 2015
I do really like the creepy calm of our Cordell as Mason's nurse/major domo but that little bit about his being unable to be employed again made me wish it was Matt Brown
posted by The Whelk at 9:30 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:30 PM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]
I mean it know it makes no sense cause he was shot and caught red handed but I also figured Mason has that kind of power.
posted by The Whelk at 9:33 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by The Whelk at 9:33 PM on June 25, 2015
At this point if Hannibal and Will traded song fragments while dancing in leather and Fosse' inspired dance numbers it would completely fit
YOU DO AN ECLECTIC CELEBRATION OF THE DANCE
posted by poffin boffin at 9:36 PM on June 25, 2015
YOU DO AN ECLECTIC CELEBRATION OF THE DANCE
posted by poffin boffin at 9:36 PM on June 25, 2015
Margot may be the fly in the ointment of the Revengers plan, she has no love for her brother, and Hannibal and Will have always helped her
posted by The Whelk at 9:38 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:38 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I mean, seriously Will and Hannibal have been nothing but good to her, knocking her up when needed, feeding her brother his face, she will not be down with this plan.
posted by The Whelk at 9:42 PM on June 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:42 PM on June 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
The fact that Chilton owns the copyright on 'Hannibal the Cannibal' just brings so much joy to my heart you guys.
Freddie Lounds is probably SEETHING that the timestamp on Chilton's trademark application was 20 seconds earlier than hers.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:44 PM on June 25, 2015 [15 favorites]
Freddie Lounds is probably SEETHING that the timestamp on Chilton's trademark application was 20 seconds earlier than hers.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:44 PM on June 25, 2015 [15 favorites]
These past four episodes might be the least chronologically ordered set of episodes on any TV show ever
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:47 PM on June 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:47 PM on June 25, 2015 [7 favorites]
And man, if we thought Hannibal will be annoyed by being called H the C, just think how offended he'll be when he knows Chilton is hawking vulgar t-shirts with that phrase on them.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:48 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:48 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
I mentioned on Twitter when you watch the last three back to back they all make much more sense, cause the looping, backwards/forward time skips feel more organic - you're going foward and then going back to fill in- and that's like, everything you're not supposed to do on a weekly TV show but works great for a 2-hour movie kinda thing. (Like the limey!)
Also, cause it's a fanwork, I love how the show uses flashbacks to do that thing fanfics do, go back to something unseen or undramatized and go "No what ACTUALLY happened was.." and make it all fit.
Plus, all this speculation on what could happen and alternate worlds and stories -- it's allows them to indulge us in seeing Will and Hannibal murder Jack together without it feeling false cause Will is obsessing over What Could've Been.
Oh Will, aint it always seem to go you don't know what you got til it's gone.
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, cause it's a fanwork, I love how the show uses flashbacks to do that thing fanfics do, go back to something unseen or undramatized and go "No what ACTUALLY happened was.." and make it all fit.
Plus, all this speculation on what could happen and alternate worlds and stories -- it's allows them to indulge us in seeing Will and Hannibal murder Jack together without it feeling false cause Will is obsessing over What Could've Been.
Oh Will, aint it always seem to go you don't know what you got til it's gone.
posted by The Whelk at 9:52 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
They paved over his fishin' stream and put up a ravenstag stable
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:54 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:54 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
also, when re-watching the second one I knew they where going to go back to Will in the hospital bed and someone saying "There's someone here to see you" and it it not being Abigail this time. I just KNEW it.
posted by The Whelk at 9:55 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by The Whelk at 9:55 PM on June 25, 2015
Lol Hannibal just won "Best Network Show" at the Saturn Awards
Not for long it ain't!
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:56 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Not for long it ain't!
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:56 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
it's fitting cause the show runs on drmatic irony
posted by The Whelk at 9:57 PM on June 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:57 PM on June 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
(Also thanks Greg but also FFFFFFFFFFFUUUUCCCKKKKKEIRIEIEKWO)
posted by sparkletone at 10:00 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 10:00 PM on June 25, 2015
I CAME HERE TO BE ALONE :(
posted by sparkletone at 10:03 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sparkletone at 10:03 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
I NEED A HUG
posted by sparkletone at 10:06 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sparkletone at 10:06 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
My Hannibal Pre-Dinner wasn't that fancy but...you can put anything in a stew
posted by The Whelk at 10:10 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by The Whelk at 10:10 PM on June 25, 2015
ACTUAL CRYING :(
posted by sparkletone at 10:16 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by sparkletone at 10:16 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
NOPE NOPE NOPE NOPE
posted by sparkletone at 10:18 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 10:18 PM on June 25, 2015
Counterpoint: YES YES YES YES
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:19 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:19 PM on June 25, 2015
Seriously. I say it ironically usually but no. Dumb fucking tears.
posted by sparkletone at 10:20 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 10:20 PM on June 25, 2015
PLEASE WIH THE HUGGING
posted by sparkletone at 10:21 PM on June 25, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 10:21 PM on June 25, 2015
JACK STOP I CANT
posted by sparkletone at 10:21 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sparkletone at 10:21 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
Aw, and Fancy Dancy got best actor (a tie?), and Laurence Fishburne won best supporting actor. Which is appropriate since Jack had me sobbing tonight.
posted by rewil at 10:21 PM on June 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by rewil at 10:21 PM on June 25, 2015 [5 favorites]
Wow. Alana has gone from "just a couple of years out of grad school" girlishness to "hellbent on vengeance" noir dame, right down to the hair and lipstick. If she felt poisoned by Hannibal the end of season 2, we are now seeing the full effects of his contamination on her soul. What a difference between Alana at this point in season 1 versus now.
On another note, I'm having a hard time getting engaged with the show this season. Episode one was such a work of art, but I don't have a strong emotional connection with any of the other characters, save Bedelia. Everyone else seems like ghosts in a shakespearian tragedy.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:23 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
On another note, I'm having a hard time getting engaged with the show this season. Episode one was such a work of art, but I don't have a strong emotional connection with any of the other characters, save Bedelia. Everyone else seems like ghosts in a shakespearian tragedy.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:23 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Alana has been full on Vampired by Hannibal, that's like his thing, of course she has the Best Reason Ever (REVENGE!!!) but she's going to be so bloodthirsty in pursuit of it.
Also, her M.O, teaming up with another rich powerful guy with drams of murder. It's good to be on the winning side.
posted by The Whelk at 11:27 PM on June 25, 2015
Also, her M.O, teaming up with another rich powerful guy with drams of murder. It's good to be on the winning side.
posted by The Whelk at 11:27 PM on June 25, 2015
So it seems NBC is not entirely humorless.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:28 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:28 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
RIP Bella. I'll never forget how Hannibal not allowing her to die was one of the cruelest things he did.
Am I correct in understanding that Jack was reading a letter of condolence from Hannibal?
posted by homunculus at 11:47 PM on June 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
Am I correct in understanding that Jack was reading a letter of condolence from Hannibal?
posted by homunculus at 11:47 PM on June 25, 2015 [6 favorites]
Am I correct in understanding that Jack was reading a letter of condolence from Hannibal?
Yes, and Jack recognized the calligraphy immediately from having seen it on his dinner invitation(s).
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:58 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yes, and Jack recognized the calligraphy immediately from having seen it on his dinner invitation(s).
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:58 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]
yes, the card and flowers are from Hannibal.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:58 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 11:58 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]
He sends him part of a John Donne
posted by The Whelk at 12:00 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 12:00 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Well, I guess that was the polite thing to do.
posted by homunculus at 12:14 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 12:14 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
My local NBC station (KARE 11) apparently decided this episode was too hot for prime time, so they shifted it to 1am. They aired instead, at 9pm Thursday, some hokey, local interest Huell Hoswser-style program. I did not watch it, but it looked like the first segment was going to be about a developmentally disabled boy who really likes car dealership parking lots (seriously).
Also, going to sleep, and waking up to watch Hannibal at 1am, and then going back to sleep, is actually kind of a fun system.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:16 AM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
Also, going to sleep, and waking up to watch Hannibal at 1am, and then going back to sleep, is actually kind of a fun system.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 12:16 AM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
Murder Vampire Alana is Best Alana. She was smoking up the screen.
If nobody picks up Hannibal for another season I don't know how I will go on.
posted by Justinian at 12:26 AM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
If nobody picks up Hannibal for another season I don't know how I will go on.
posted by Justinian at 12:26 AM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
In this week's Post Mortem Lawrence and Scott dance oh so delicately around the topic of whether Will wants to bone Hannibal
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:52 AM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:52 AM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
How is this even a show on television? How?
Also, Bella is dead way earlier than in the books.
posted by crossoverman at 7:13 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, Bella is dead way earlier than in the books.
posted by crossoverman at 7:13 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I love how Alana and Bedelia have an accord-from-afar to outthink the dumb guys: Alana identifies the specific grocery items that will pinpoint Hannibal's location, and Bedelia helpfully buys them. .
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:51 AM on June 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:51 AM on June 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
Also, Bella is dead way earlier than in the books.
Kind of, but kind of not. Right now they're doing Hannibal, which is the third book; then later this season they will do Red Dragon, the first book; and then the plan is to do 'Silence' later on. Bella died in Silence, so in Hannibal the book, she is already dead. It's all out of order anyway.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:27 AM on June 26, 2015
Kind of, but kind of not. Right now they're doing Hannibal, which is the third book; then later this season they will do Red Dragon, the first book; and then the plan is to do 'Silence' later on. Bella died in Silence, so in Hannibal the book, she is already dead. It's all out of order anyway.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:27 AM on June 26, 2015
Jusssst realized the eye for an eye/Chilton's dead eye thing going on. REVENGE!
posted by The Whelk at 8:41 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 8:41 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
By the way, you absolutely can sail to Europe in a boat like that. I'm looking for more details, because a lot of people have been complaining about this...
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:27 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:27 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Across the Atlantic in a 26-foot yacht - We crossed the Atlantic from Mindelo to Barbados in 18 days and 1 hour.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:33 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:33 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm like five seconds away from cutting in the chorus to "come sail away" into that boat scene.
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 AM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 9:35 AM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
DO IT FOR MEEE
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:36 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:36 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's a good point, Greg. I think that, when the time comes for Hannibal to make pen pals with the rest of the series' rogue gallery that's going to make a LOT more sense. Assuming that things play out in the same way, Hannibal will have been betrayed by the one person he feels any real connection with, and these other aspiring psychopaths are going to be points of light in Hannibal's world. In Manhunter Hannibal helps The Tooth Fairy because he wants to stick it to Will (so to speak), in the show it's going to be like 'oh, of course he finds a connection.'
posted by codacorolla at 9:46 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by codacorolla at 9:46 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hannibal really came alive for me emotionally right when he had Will all tightly framed and locked up and was practically dislocating his shoulder smugly patting himself on the back for his diabolical cleverness and then found himself checking the waiting room and staring at that empty chair.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:58 AM on June 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:58 AM on June 26, 2015 [7 favorites]
HAHA YES that scene was basically the emotional equivalent of Hannibal drunk on umbrella drinks at the kareoke singing I CAN'T LIIIIIIIIIIVE IF LIVING IS WITHOUT YOOOOOOU
posted by poffin boffin at 10:06 AM on June 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:06 AM on June 26, 2015 [10 favorites]
the scene will be shot by special guest director werner herzog
posted by poffin boffin at 10:12 AM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:12 AM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
special guest director werner herzog
Who do I have to cannibalize to make this happen
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:13 AM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
Who do I have to cannibalize to make this happen
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:13 AM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
The incredible coldness that Mads uses for Hannibal's face 90% of the time makes it all the more noticeable when he is ~Having Will Feelings~
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:22 AM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:22 AM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
HAHA YES that scene was basically the emotional equivalent of Hannibal drunk on umbrella drinks at the kareoke singing I CAN'T LIIIIIIIIIIVE IF LIVING IS WITHOUT YOOOOOOU
The girly drinks are made of real girls
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:23 AM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
The girly drinks are made of real girls
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:23 AM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
HAHA YES that scene was basically the emotional equivalent of Hannibal drunk on umbrella drinks at the kareoke singing I CAN'T LIIIIIIIIIIVE IF LIVING IS WITHOUT YOOOOOOU
Well, I'm so above you, and it's plain to see
But I came to love you anyway
So you pulled my heart out
And I don't mind bleedin'
Any old time you keep me waitin'
He's a lonely boy!
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:31 AM on June 26, 2015
Well, I'm so above you, and it's plain to see
But I came to love you anyway
So you pulled my heart out
And I don't mind bleedin'
Any old time you keep me waitin'
He's a lonely boy!
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:31 AM on June 26, 2015
As I said before, my Will/Hannibal ballad will always be this Taylor Swift number
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:35 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:35 AM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Did my ears deceive me or did Mason Verger just quote Conan the Barbarian?
posted by cazoo at 11:40 AM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by cazoo at 11:40 AM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Previously.Tv has a great description of Chilton varying between preening and insecurity
posted by The Whelk at 1:23 PM on June 26, 2015
posted by The Whelk at 1:23 PM on June 26, 2015
The A.V Club is a nice review but the commentators really dug this episode.
I did too, I liked how they used the need for commercial breaks to go back to each character and show what the hell happened in those 8 months that made them all so different now.
posted by The Whelk at 1:34 PM on June 26, 2015
I did too, I liked how they used the need for commercial breaks to go back to each character and show what the hell happened in those 8 months that made them all so different now.
posted by The Whelk at 1:34 PM on June 26, 2015
also
"I laughed more than I thought I would watching an episode with a focus on nearly everybody recovering from severe trauma."
posted by The Whelk at 1:41 PM on June 26, 2015
"I laughed more than I thought I would watching an episode with a focus on nearly everybody recovering from severe trauma."
posted by The Whelk at 1:41 PM on June 26, 2015
So many high-larious lines in this episode as usual, but after some deliberation, I have to give the award to The Unsinkable Mason Verger looking at his post-op face in the mirror: "Good as new!"
I'm going to start inserting that into everyday conversation whenever I encounter something in a horrible state of disrepair or ramshackle jury-rigged-ness. Every time I think of it, I cackle wildly and have to go re-watch Mason's Madcap Moments.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:45 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm going to start inserting that into everyday conversation whenever I encounter something in a horrible state of disrepair or ramshackle jury-rigged-ness. Every time I think of it, I cackle wildly and have to go re-watch Mason's Madcap Moments.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:45 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh and I also noticed Mason's accent change, cause Pitt's Verger had this midwestern flat "Evil Alton Brown" affect (which he hid when he expected to be normal, I loved that detail) while NoFace!Mason is more southern and loopy
Then again I can easily credit that to Mason being loopy and over the top and having his lips and jaw gone
posted by The Whelk at 1:55 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Then again I can easily credit that to Mason being loopy and over the top and having his lips and jaw gone
posted by The Whelk at 1:55 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I find myself kind of with Jack here, int he sense that I can genuinely believe he belatedly realizes that he owes Will. I don't think he's aft6er Hannibal; I think he really does want to stop Will Graham from what Jack thinks is a self-destructive spiral.
Also, I find Will's idea of Abigail increasingly harder to be on board with. For all his vaunted empathy, past season 1 I feel like she was more of a prop in his fantasies of being genuinely connected to someone else, to the point that he could ignore how ambivalently she actually felt towards him. And now she's literally just a proxy for his affection for the man who brainwashed, mutilated, and finally killed Abigail.
When Will gives his line about ignoring the worst in someone so you can continue enjoying the best, did anyone else wonder, "What exactly *is* 'the best' in Hannibal?" Hannibal is a great artificer, I suppose, but...really, what exactly is Will attached to, other than Hannibal's ability *not to care* and to enjoy art-murder for its surface? Was Will's quest for Hannibal always a form os self-annihilation, because to be Will Graham is to drown in OH THE FEELS and Hannibal takes all of that and makes it a set of detached affectations? I get the feeling all Will wants in the end to is to stop being human, because being human is being hurt, betrayed, misunderstood. Hannibal gets to hurt people, and he cultivates the understandings he wishes. I can see why that would be very attractive to Will Graham.
How ironic that Will has destroyed Hannibal precisely by inducing affection in him. He's going to find Hannibal and realize that this isn't the guy he fell in murder-love with.
"You had...disadvantages."
"What disadvantages?"
"Passion. And you're insane."
Will liked Hannibal a lot more when he thought Hannibal was dispassionate. That's what made him interesting.
posted by kewb at 2:00 PM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
Also, I find Will's idea of Abigail increasingly harder to be on board with. For all his vaunted empathy, past season 1 I feel like she was more of a prop in his fantasies of being genuinely connected to someone else, to the point that he could ignore how ambivalently she actually felt towards him. And now she's literally just a proxy for his affection for the man who brainwashed, mutilated, and finally killed Abigail.
When Will gives his line about ignoring the worst in someone so you can continue enjoying the best, did anyone else wonder, "What exactly *is* 'the best' in Hannibal?" Hannibal is a great artificer, I suppose, but...really, what exactly is Will attached to, other than Hannibal's ability *not to care* and to enjoy art-murder for its surface? Was Will's quest for Hannibal always a form os self-annihilation, because to be Will Graham is to drown in OH THE FEELS and Hannibal takes all of that and makes it a set of detached affectations? I get the feeling all Will wants in the end to is to stop being human, because being human is being hurt, betrayed, misunderstood. Hannibal gets to hurt people, and he cultivates the understandings he wishes. I can see why that would be very attractive to Will Graham.
How ironic that Will has destroyed Hannibal precisely by inducing affection in him. He's going to find Hannibal and realize that this isn't the guy he fell in murder-love with.
"You had...disadvantages."
"What disadvantages?"
"Passion. And you're insane."
Will liked Hannibal a lot more when he thought Hannibal was dispassionate. That's what made him interesting.
posted by kewb at 2:00 PM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
(turns out Fuller tweeted a picture of Will on the boat with a link to "Come Sail Away" just in case I was worried this show isn't being made on my own personal wavelength)
posted by The Whelk at 2:08 PM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 2:08 PM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
When Will gives his line about ignoring the worst in someone so you can continue enjoying the best, did anyone else wonder, "What exactly *is* 'the best' in Hannibal?" Hannibal is a great artificer, I suppose, but...really, what exactly is Will attached to, other than Hannibal's ability *not to care* and to enjoy art-murder for its surface?
I posted this someplace else (in response to someone asking why Will was still into Hannibal), and I'm about to run off to the doctor so I'll just repost it verbatim:
In Season 1, Will and Hannibal became (as far as Will knew) genuinely close friends and confidants. He was closer to Hannibal than anyone else on the show, right up until the last episode of that season.
When that all came crashing down and Will got wise, the thing is: everyone turned on him. Everyone thought he did it. So he suddenly had NO friends whatsoever. Even once he was exonerated, many people (like Alana) still thought of him as an attempted murderer because he tried to kill Hannibal - which was a major turning point for him, to kill someone in cold blood. It changed him, and everyone saw that.
...except Hannibal was still trying to be his friend the whole time.
Throughout this, Will, with his whole empathy thing, knew that Hannibal wasn't just fucking with him - he actually did care about Will, and as Bedelia said, Hannibal did what he thought was best for Will (in order to transform him). Just, like, in an insane murder way. Will at this point still hates Hannibal, but he is also drawn to him, because Hannibal cares about him and understands him in a way that no one else on the show can. That's incredibly compelling if you're as fundamentally lonely and misunderstood as Will.
So then Will gets out, and he (and Jack) realize that they now need to bait Hannibal with something he won't be able to resist. But the thing is, they can't completely lie to him. They have to give him something real. And since Will really is drawn to Hannibal, he is able to present himself as the ultimate bait. All he has to do is play up the dark parts of him that already exist, which he has repressed his entire life ("the urges you kept down for so long"), and play up his very genuine fascination with Hannibal.
We see throughout the second half of season two that he is still driven by a desire to kill Hannibal - see the incredibly homoerotic "tell me, how would you do it" conversation - but that very desire was manufactured and encouraged by Hannibal in order to help Will get in touch with his darker self. A gateway drug to the joy of killing - a joy which Will was barely able to admit to himself after he killed GJH, but which he fully embraced when he tried to kill Social Worker Guy.
Basically: Will thought he could totally handle it. Thought he could actually do what Hannibal has been trying to get him to do for a season and a half and open his mind to him and still manage to remain himself. But he couldn't.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:23 PM on June 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
I posted this someplace else (in response to someone asking why Will was still into Hannibal), and I'm about to run off to the doctor so I'll just repost it verbatim:
In Season 1, Will and Hannibal became (as far as Will knew) genuinely close friends and confidants. He was closer to Hannibal than anyone else on the show, right up until the last episode of that season.
When that all came crashing down and Will got wise, the thing is: everyone turned on him. Everyone thought he did it. So he suddenly had NO friends whatsoever. Even once he was exonerated, many people (like Alana) still thought of him as an attempted murderer because he tried to kill Hannibal - which was a major turning point for him, to kill someone in cold blood. It changed him, and everyone saw that.
...except Hannibal was still trying to be his friend the whole time.
Throughout this, Will, with his whole empathy thing, knew that Hannibal wasn't just fucking with him - he actually did care about Will, and as Bedelia said, Hannibal did what he thought was best for Will (in order to transform him). Just, like, in an insane murder way. Will at this point still hates Hannibal, but he is also drawn to him, because Hannibal cares about him and understands him in a way that no one else on the show can. That's incredibly compelling if you're as fundamentally lonely and misunderstood as Will.
So then Will gets out, and he (and Jack) realize that they now need to bait Hannibal with something he won't be able to resist. But the thing is, they can't completely lie to him. They have to give him something real. And since Will really is drawn to Hannibal, he is able to present himself as the ultimate bait. All he has to do is play up the dark parts of him that already exist, which he has repressed his entire life ("the urges you kept down for so long"), and play up his very genuine fascination with Hannibal.
We see throughout the second half of season two that he is still driven by a desire to kill Hannibal - see the incredibly homoerotic "tell me, how would you do it" conversation - but that very desire was manufactured and encouraged by Hannibal in order to help Will get in touch with his darker self. A gateway drug to the joy of killing - a joy which Will was barely able to admit to himself after he killed GJH, but which he fully embraced when he tried to kill Social Worker Guy.
Basically: Will thought he could totally handle it. Thought he could actually do what Hannibal has been trying to get him to do for a season and a half and open his mind to him and still manage to remain himself. But he couldn't.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:23 PM on June 26, 2015 [12 favorites]
Also kewb, regarding Abigail, don't forget that Will's fatherly feelings for her were originated and encouraged by Hannibal. That was part of his 'design' as well.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:46 PM on June 26, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:46 PM on June 26, 2015
Ten thousand favourites for showbiz_liz
And one disputed point:
to kill someone in cold blood
He might very well have qualified for justifiable homicide in that instance.
posted by tel3path at 3:01 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
And one disputed point:
to kill someone in cold blood
He might very well have qualified for justifiable homicide in that instance.
posted by tel3path at 3:01 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
The A.V Club is a nice review but the commentators really dug this episode.
"I loved that final shot of Will sailing away. It was like the world's most depressing Duran Duran video."
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:22 PM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
"I loved that final shot of Will sailing away. It was like the world's most depressing Duran Duran video."
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:22 PM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
To what showbiz_liz said, I'll add this.
Not only did all that stuff happen, and not only did Will do his utmost to incapacitate Hannibal, but the failure was total. Hannibal is still on the loose, and everyone close to Will suffered permanent damage because of it.
And the reason it was all a total failure is because the law withdrew its protection at the last moment. According to the letter of the law, Hannibal is allowed to do what he did and then leave to do it somewhere else. They didn't even post an officer to intercept Jack or Will on their way to the "illegal" showdown they claimed to want to prevent. Legal justice turns out to be a fine dusting of rhetoric over lawlessness and brutality.
So now Hannibal is off somewhere doing it all over again, he's pretending to be someone he's not and anyone who's paying attention probably realizes it is just a pretense, but Hannibal is allowed to do all this because he's cool. The entire world is just fine with Hannibal being a serial killing cannibal, because he's just that cool.
So why couldn't Will be? If only he had listened to all the people who told him Hannibal was trying to help him, that Hannibal was his true and loyal friend, then none of this would have had to happen. Maybe nobody would have died or gotten hurt, at least, nobody worth bothering about. Alana could have gone on being a respected psychiatrist. Jack would have gone on looking for the Ripper. Abigail would have had the acceptance of her new family. If Will had just left it all alone. Or at least, if he'd killed Jack and then the Murder Family had run off together. Of course it could never have worked like that just by the very nature of how it was all done, but never mind that - it's the prevailing worldview that Will is the one who caused this disaster. Through his own inherent corruption.
In the face of all that, what possible motivation could Will now have for staying "home" with his "normal" "friends" and working together with them to "arrest" Hannibal? What part of that could possibly seem rewarding to him?
posted by tel3path at 3:53 PM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
Not only did all that stuff happen, and not only did Will do his utmost to incapacitate Hannibal, but the failure was total. Hannibal is still on the loose, and everyone close to Will suffered permanent damage because of it.
And the reason it was all a total failure is because the law withdrew its protection at the last moment. According to the letter of the law, Hannibal is allowed to do what he did and then leave to do it somewhere else. They didn't even post an officer to intercept Jack or Will on their way to the "illegal" showdown they claimed to want to prevent. Legal justice turns out to be a fine dusting of rhetoric over lawlessness and brutality.
So now Hannibal is off somewhere doing it all over again, he's pretending to be someone he's not and anyone who's paying attention probably realizes it is just a pretense, but Hannibal is allowed to do all this because he's cool. The entire world is just fine with Hannibal being a serial killing cannibal, because he's just that cool.
So why couldn't Will be? If only he had listened to all the people who told him Hannibal was trying to help him, that Hannibal was his true and loyal friend, then none of this would have had to happen. Maybe nobody would have died or gotten hurt, at least, nobody worth bothering about. Alana could have gone on being a respected psychiatrist. Jack would have gone on looking for the Ripper. Abigail would have had the acceptance of her new family. If Will had just left it all alone. Or at least, if he'd killed Jack and then the Murder Family had run off together. Of course it could never have worked like that just by the very nature of how it was all done, but never mind that - it's the prevailing worldview that Will is the one who caused this disaster. Through his own inherent corruption.
In the face of all that, what possible motivation could Will now have for staying "home" with his "normal" "friends" and working together with them to "arrest" Hannibal? What part of that could possibly seem rewarding to him?
posted by tel3path at 3:53 PM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
A significant advantage, to Alana and Will, of sailing to Europe is that it leaves no immediate clue where he's going. Of course tobe all legal he would have to notify the Italians when he entered their country, and that would probably be available to Jack, but that would explain where Will got such a large head start tailing Will tailing Hannibal.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:35 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:35 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think a nice touch was Will avoiding eye contact with Jack at the viewing, just like he avoided eye contact in the pilot.
So what was that swelling adagio during Will's tasty murder dinner sequence? And what was that acid-rock during the operation and end credits? Are those both original Reitzells?
posted by infinitewindow at 4:59 PM on June 26, 2015
So what was that swelling adagio during Will's tasty murder dinner sequence? And what was that acid-rock during the operation and end credits? Are those both original Reitzells?
posted by infinitewindow at 4:59 PM on June 26, 2015
It was like the world's most depressing Duran Duran video
hungry like the sad cannibal wolf
posted by poffin boffin at 5:10 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
hungry like the sad cannibal wolf
posted by poffin boffin at 5:10 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Finally getting to watch. Thank goodness for these abundant and long commercial breaks or the experience would be too intense.
I actually find Mason Verger interesting now. Everyone was going on about Michael Pitt before and I just wasn't feeling it. I always thought Mason was an irritant that the world would be better without. He actually seems effectively menacing now.
posted by tel3path at 5:16 PM on June 26, 2015
I actually find Mason Verger interesting now. Everyone was going on about Michael Pitt before and I just wasn't feeling it. I always thought Mason was an irritant that the world would be better without. He actually seems effectively menacing now.
posted by tel3path at 5:16 PM on June 26, 2015
hungry like the sad cannibal wolf
His name is Will Graham and he has a cunning plaaaaaaan....
posted by The Whelk at 5:19 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
His name is Will Graham and he has a cunning plaaaaaaan....
posted by The Whelk at 5:19 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
The shock on Jack's face as the attack comes from the side he didn't expect.
On the other hand, it was only a moment - it didn't last for months on end like Jack's attack on Will.
What a nightmare for Will - waking up from Hannibal gutting him to Chilton trying to make an equal of him. Obviously Chilton's forgotten the part where Will WASN'T fooled by Hannibal; I suppose everyone was.
They dealt with what happened to the "cloud of suspicion" by having Jack tell us what the official narrative was.
And notice that what Will said was "what can I do for you?" Of course he assumes Jack wants something. That's always been true before.
Will really - finally - hates Jack.
posted by tel3path at 5:30 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
On the other hand, it was only a moment - it didn't last for months on end like Jack's attack on Will.
What a nightmare for Will - waking up from Hannibal gutting him to Chilton trying to make an equal of him. Obviously Chilton's forgotten the part where Will WASN'T fooled by Hannibal; I suppose everyone was.
They dealt with what happened to the "cloud of suspicion" by having Jack tell us what the official narrative was.
And notice that what Will said was "what can I do for you?" Of course he assumes Jack wants something. That's always been true before.
Will really - finally - hates Jack.
posted by tel3path at 5:30 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
It is interesting that this episode really uses the commercial breaks as effective segment delineators. As tel3path suggests it almost wouldn't work without them.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:31 PM on June 26, 2015
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:31 PM on June 26, 2015
Damn it, Whelk. Now I am singing Durannibal songs.
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:46 PM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
posted by bitter-girl.com at 5:46 PM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
I couldn't wait for the commercial break to remark on this. Alana's demeanour has indeed completely changed.
From the descriptions, I thought that this version of Alana was rather a natural continuation of the previous one. While that may still be true in terms of thought processes, the presentation is completely different. I have to take her at her word that she is now "thinking differently" rather than just being at a further point along a continuum.
With Chilton, she exuded pure malevolence. While that could have been feigned purely for his benefit, I don't believe it was... though notice it took a few moments to manifest.
The line that just stopped me in my tracks was when Chilton talked about "broken" Will Graham, and how much he must long for reunion with Hannibal.
And Alana said "it would be the best thing for his therapy".
"Best thing for him" was what Hannibal said about breaking Benjamin Raspail's (Franklyn Froideveaux' in the show) neck, because "his therapy was going nowhere".
DID YOU GET THAT?
ALANA WANTS, OR IS SAYING SHE WANTS, WILL TO BE REUNITED WITH HANNIBAL SO THAT HANNIBAL WILL KILL HIM.
I read a number of fans talking about how "caring" Alana was being by visiting Will in Hannibal's kitchen and speaking sanity and truth to him so softly. That they can't understand why he dismissed her like that.
IS ANYONE PAYING FUCKING ATTENTION HERE?
Unless Alana is playing the same kind of changing-faces game that Will was playing in S2 - which I do think is possible - NOBODY should think that she's being "caring" towards Will at this point.
Also the use of the word "broken" reminds of the "too broken to date?" scene. If you frame Alana and Will as rivals for Hannibal's affections, Will has made just as gigantic a fool of Alana as Hannibal has. As the Scorned Woman, Alana will be likely to be venting her fury on them both. I am certain Mason Verger will hold a grudge too, and he'll actually have good reason.
I think that the plan at this point, for some or all of the conspirators, is to have both Hannibal AND Will delivered to Mason Verger. Chilton's mention of "front-row seats" suggests they wish to watch them being killed.
posted by tel3path at 5:47 PM on June 26, 2015
From the descriptions, I thought that this version of Alana was rather a natural continuation of the previous one. While that may still be true in terms of thought processes, the presentation is completely different. I have to take her at her word that she is now "thinking differently" rather than just being at a further point along a continuum.
With Chilton, she exuded pure malevolence. While that could have been feigned purely for his benefit, I don't believe it was... though notice it took a few moments to manifest.
The line that just stopped me in my tracks was when Chilton talked about "broken" Will Graham, and how much he must long for reunion with Hannibal.
And Alana said "it would be the best thing for his therapy".
"Best thing for him" was what Hannibal said about breaking Benjamin Raspail's (Franklyn Froideveaux' in the show) neck, because "his therapy was going nowhere".
DID YOU GET THAT?
ALANA WANTS, OR IS SAYING SHE WANTS, WILL TO BE REUNITED WITH HANNIBAL SO THAT HANNIBAL WILL KILL HIM.
I read a number of fans talking about how "caring" Alana was being by visiting Will in Hannibal's kitchen and speaking sanity and truth to him so softly. That they can't understand why he dismissed her like that.
IS ANYONE PAYING FUCKING ATTENTION HERE?
Unless Alana is playing the same kind of changing-faces game that Will was playing in S2 - which I do think is possible - NOBODY should think that she's being "caring" towards Will at this point.
Also the use of the word "broken" reminds of the "too broken to date?" scene. If you frame Alana and Will as rivals for Hannibal's affections, Will has made just as gigantic a fool of Alana as Hannibal has. As the Scorned Woman, Alana will be likely to be venting her fury on them both. I am certain Mason Verger will hold a grudge too, and he'll actually have good reason.
I think that the plan at this point, for some or all of the conspirators, is to have both Hannibal AND Will delivered to Mason Verger. Chilton's mention of "front-row seats" suggests they wish to watch them being killed.
posted by tel3path at 5:47 PM on June 26, 2015
I love that -- for all the changes that have been made from the source material -- the show is following quite faithfully the tonal arc of Harris's series, right down to a novel (Hannibal) that was roundly fucking hated at the time of its publication (but which I loved desperately). The bizarre super-giallo that novel (and, to a lesser degree, its original adaptation) put forth was so jarring to fans of The Silence of the Lambs as to be unpalatable, as it were. But its time is now, and the three or four people who watch this show are finally embracing that material with all the love it always deserved. I hope Thomas Harris is getting a kick out of it. I don't think he ever would have imagined combining Will and Clarice this way, but damn if it doesn't work.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:57 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by kittens for breakfast at 5:57 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Alana is kind of an anti-Clarice. She is saying a lot of Starling lines but she is no innocent ingenue like Clarice. I am starting to suspect we will see the Hannibal-Will remote collaboration over Dolarhyde with Hannibal on the run instead of in jail, possibly with Alana playing a pivotal anti-Clarice role to bring him in at the end of the season instead of the escape that ended SOTL.
It's very interesting how Fuller is fitting together the pieces of the Harris puzzle in different ways than originally intended. It's starting to look like we will have a more or less thematically complete reassembly of Hannibal Rising, Hannibal, and Red Dragon by the end of this season, having delicately skipped around those Silence of the Lambs characters Fuller couldn't license while still incorporating a lot of their scenes and themes. Then we have the fascinating suggestion that the plan for S4 is "radical."
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:06 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's very interesting how Fuller is fitting together the pieces of the Harris puzzle in different ways than originally intended. It's starting to look like we will have a more or less thematically complete reassembly of Hannibal Rising, Hannibal, and Red Dragon by the end of this season, having delicately skipped around those Silence of the Lambs characters Fuller couldn't license while still incorporating a lot of their scenes and themes. Then we have the fascinating suggestion that the plan for S4 is "radical."
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:06 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Season four: picking out curtains
posted by The Whelk at 6:10 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 6:10 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
I am also suspecting this whole plan was concocted between S1 and S2, with S2 structured to leave options open should the SOTL characters become available. By the closing of S2 it was clear MGM were intent on being dicks about it, so Fuller pulled the trigger on this rearrangement which eliminates the need for those rights. At this point I don't think they could put Clarice in if they wanted to and have it make any sense.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:10 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:10 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
As vexed as I am with the idea that anybody has to be brainwashed and run off in some gross "avidly invited and encouraged" penetration-based romance (YUCH Harris could you have maybe found a more gross way of putting it?) I must admit that they have fully justified it with Will in ways they didn't with Clarice.
posted by tel3path at 6:11 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 6:11 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
So what was that swelling adagio during Will's tasty murder dinner sequence? And what was that acid-rock during the operation and end credits? Are those both original Reitzells?
Dunno about the acid rock, but the adagio was The Death of Aase from Grieg's Peer Gynt Suite.
posted by speicus at 6:15 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Dunno about the acid rock, but the adagio was The Death of Aase from Grieg's Peer Gynt Suite.
posted by speicus at 6:15 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Excuse me I just have to BELLLAAAAAAAAAAAA.
Jack was right to give her back what Hannibal took away. That is character development. Yes he hung onto a little bit of control by being in the room. But now he knows what she was missing. Jack no longer needs to control everything.
Fucking Hannibal, Jack can't even have one private moment with Bella. Not even one. Fucking Hannibal. Fuck you Hannibal. FUCK YOU HANNIBAL.
The music really captured the physical sensation of seeing that one thing in the place it should not be. It's always the worst moment of your life, that moment.
And of course, Hannibal looked sincere in writing his stupid fucking note, because fucking Hannibal fucking would. He has SINCERE FEELINGS because he's not SHALLOW like a PSYCHOPATH. No, you know what's wrong with Hanni? It's that he NEVER HAD A SINCERE FEELING HE LEFT UNEXPRESSED. Fuck you Hannibal, you fucking fuck
posted by tel3path at 6:16 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Jack was right to give her back what Hannibal took away. That is character development. Yes he hung onto a little bit of control by being in the room. But now he knows what she was missing. Jack no longer needs to control everything.
Fucking Hannibal, Jack can't even have one private moment with Bella. Not even one. Fucking Hannibal. Fuck you Hannibal. FUCK YOU HANNIBAL.
The music really captured the physical sensation of seeing that one thing in the place it should not be. It's always the worst moment of your life, that moment.
And of course, Hannibal looked sincere in writing his stupid fucking note, because fucking Hannibal fucking would. He has SINCERE FEELINGS because he's not SHALLOW like a PSYCHOPATH. No, you know what's wrong with Hanni? It's that he NEVER HAD A SINCERE FEELING HE LEFT UNEXPRESSED. Fuck you Hannibal, you fucking fuck
posted by tel3path at 6:16 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
So, not a coincidence that Mason now looks like a pig.
If Alana is "the new psychiatrist" is she, like Cordell, no longer authorized to work in the healthcare industry?
Also... I can't find any way in which marrow in the bloodstream can cause "thinking differently" - seems like it's a resulting embolism and brain damage would cause that - but I can't find any evidence for that either? I've been trying for at least 18 seconds.
Maybe this is just another expression of Alana's tendency to look for outside influences?
posted by tel3path at 6:20 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
If Alana is "the new psychiatrist" is she, like Cordell, no longer authorized to work in the healthcare industry?
Also... I can't find any way in which marrow in the bloodstream can cause "thinking differently" - seems like it's a resulting embolism and brain damage would cause that - but I can't find any evidence for that either? I've been trying for at least 18 seconds.
Maybe this is just another expression of Alana's tendency to look for outside influences?
posted by tel3path at 6:20 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Just found a pre-S3 panel discussion where Fuller predicts the appeareance of new characters to date. It predicts Dolarhyde for E8, giving us 3 more pre-Red Dragon episodes and then presumably 6 Red Dragon episodes. That will give a lot of room to explore the Red Dragon arc especially since there is so much background on the non-Dolarhyde characters that won't need to be covered.
On preview -- tel3path they are probably trying to suggest that blood clots might have entered Jack's bloodstream, possibly causing micro-strokes. These can cause changes in thought and behavior that are not catastrophic enough to be readily diagnosed as strokes.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:22 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
On preview -- tel3path they are probably trying to suggest that blood clots might have entered Jack's bloodstream, possibly causing micro-strokes. These can cause changes in thought and behavior that are not catastrophic enough to be readily diagnosed as strokes.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:22 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think that the plan at this point, for some or all of the conspirators, is to have both Hannibal AND Will delivered to Mason Verger. Chilton's mention of "front-row seats" suggests they wish to watch them being killed.
Will was framed, but Hannibal arranged his freedom; Will was then eviscerated, but unlike everyone else Hannibal ensured that he would survive largely (physically) intact. I can see the people who Hannibal left with permanent disfigurements and disabilities resenting the hell out of Will, especially when it comes out that Will was seriously thinking of just running off with Hannibal.
Moreover, a lot of the way people treated Will can be connected pretty directly to Hannibal's manipulations. It was Hannibal who faked medical reports to make Will look crazy enough to be frame-able, and who made sure Freddy Lounds could smear him using a tape of his sessions with Will. It was Hannibal who helped Alana decide to turn on Will so completely. And Hannibal used all of them in ways that deeply violated them. Alana has the best case here, but Chilton is not entirely wrong that Hannibal did to him much of what he did to Will. And then there's Hannibal secretly feeding them all human meat for months on end. It often feels like Will is blaming everyone else so he doesn't have to blame Hannibal.
So, yeah, Will has given up on everybody to chase after Hannibal, and quelle surprise, everyone except Jack is now pretty willing to lump Will in with Hannibal because *Will* is lumping himself in with Hannibal. He really doesn't get to complain about that particular bit anymore, and he doesn't get to call himself "too empathetic" anymore either. That no one's thrown Beverly in Will's face -- hell, why Will seems to have stopped thinking about her at all -- is telling. They know he doesn't give a damn about it anymore. Even if you buy that Will is rightfully disgusted with his false friends or with the corrupt establishment, he doesn't seem to give two shits anymore about any of the other people Hannibal has spent years murdering in grotesque fashion and will go on murdering.
If Will's made his choice, then there's only the repentant, disgraced Jack left to root for. Jack may have done badly by his people -- Will included -- in the past, but he's now the best of a very bad lot. He actually seems capable of caring about people other than himself, and I'm not sure that can still be said for anyone else at this point.
All that said, one of the things I like about this show is that it really, really doesn't pretend that the grotesque violence done to people is actually any good for any of them in the end. Even Hannibal is unwillingly finding out that deploying this sort of violence over and over again makes him less a god than an alienated freak. If they're going to give us a grotesque unjust world, I'm glad they're showing us that no one's really having any fun in it.
posted by kewb at 6:23 PM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
Will was framed, but Hannibal arranged his freedom; Will was then eviscerated, but unlike everyone else Hannibal ensured that he would survive largely (physically) intact. I can see the people who Hannibal left with permanent disfigurements and disabilities resenting the hell out of Will, especially when it comes out that Will was seriously thinking of just running off with Hannibal.
Moreover, a lot of the way people treated Will can be connected pretty directly to Hannibal's manipulations. It was Hannibal who faked medical reports to make Will look crazy enough to be frame-able, and who made sure Freddy Lounds could smear him using a tape of his sessions with Will. It was Hannibal who helped Alana decide to turn on Will so completely. And Hannibal used all of them in ways that deeply violated them. Alana has the best case here, but Chilton is not entirely wrong that Hannibal did to him much of what he did to Will. And then there's Hannibal secretly feeding them all human meat for months on end. It often feels like Will is blaming everyone else so he doesn't have to blame Hannibal.
So, yeah, Will has given up on everybody to chase after Hannibal, and quelle surprise, everyone except Jack is now pretty willing to lump Will in with Hannibal because *Will* is lumping himself in with Hannibal. He really doesn't get to complain about that particular bit anymore, and he doesn't get to call himself "too empathetic" anymore either. That no one's thrown Beverly in Will's face -- hell, why Will seems to have stopped thinking about her at all -- is telling. They know he doesn't give a damn about it anymore. Even if you buy that Will is rightfully disgusted with his false friends or with the corrupt establishment, he doesn't seem to give two shits anymore about any of the other people Hannibal has spent years murdering in grotesque fashion and will go on murdering.
If Will's made his choice, then there's only the repentant, disgraced Jack left to root for. Jack may have done badly by his people -- Will included -- in the past, but he's now the best of a very bad lot. He actually seems capable of caring about people other than himself, and I'm not sure that can still be said for anyone else at this point.
All that said, one of the things I like about this show is that it really, really doesn't pretend that the grotesque violence done to people is actually any good for any of them in the end. Even Hannibal is unwillingly finding out that deploying this sort of violence over and over again makes him less a god than an alienated freak. If they're going to give us a grotesque unjust world, I'm glad they're showing us that no one's really having any fun in it.
posted by kewb at 6:23 PM on June 26, 2015 [8 favorites]
Certainly Jack seems the only person left to root for here.
The door opening and Will's dogs running out. Then Alana saying Will's "already gone" and "knows what he has to do" - as if Will were a dog that she'd sent out to fetch the newspaper. As both Jack and Alana used to perceive him.
The only person in the story who is relatable/sympathetic at this point is Jack. He's just gone through a recognizably human experience and come out of it recognizably human and having unburdened himself of some of the faults that enraged us in the past.
Now he says he's gone on a friendship mission to rescue Will... and the overall plot arc suggests that it will work, at least in the medium term. How the heck we get from here to there, I don't know.
posted by tel3path at 6:33 PM on June 26, 2015
The door opening and Will's dogs running out. Then Alana saying Will's "already gone" and "knows what he has to do" - as if Will were a dog that she'd sent out to fetch the newspaper. As both Jack and Alana used to perceive him.
The only person in the story who is relatable/sympathetic at this point is Jack. He's just gone through a recognizably human experience and come out of it recognizably human and having unburdened himself of some of the faults that enraged us in the past.
Now he says he's gone on a friendship mission to rescue Will... and the overall plot arc suggests that it will work, at least in the medium term. How the heck we get from here to there, I don't know.
posted by tel3path at 6:33 PM on June 26, 2015
Also, why does nobody ever point out that the main antagonists in the Hannibal book are called Pazzi and Doemling.
If this is what Hannibal's up against, no wonder he always wins.
I notice Alana's wearing a blazer with the same kind of stitched pattern as Margot's in S2. Because button stitching ha ha nudge nudge wink wink?
Um, no, I don't think I've ever heard that expression. What... do you mean exactly?
Oh, you know, button stitching.
[blank look]
BUTTON.
STITCHING. nudge nudge wink wink.
[...?????]
...never mind.
posted by tel3path at 6:36 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
If this is what Hannibal's up against, no wonder he always wins.
I notice Alana's wearing a blazer with the same kind of stitched pattern as Margot's in S2. Because button stitching ha ha nudge nudge wink wink?
Um, no, I don't think I've ever heard that expression. What... do you mean exactly?
Oh, you know, button stitching.
[blank look]
BUTTON.
STITCHING. nudge nudge wink wink.
[...?????]
...never mind.
posted by tel3path at 6:36 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
...it's not even clear that Will is blaming everybody else. He names himself and Jack as being distinctly subpar "heroes". However, I notice that Will himself is casting very little blame outwards, while the audience meebles around in a confused blamefest.
posted by tel3path at 6:38 PM on June 26, 2015
posted by tel3path at 6:38 PM on June 26, 2015
Alana's double breasted coat. It's orange, right?
Orange for prison uniform.
Maybe on Kade it's a bit different cos she's a traffic cone, but every single other time I've seen orange on a character it's fit the concept of prison uniform.
posted by tel3path at 6:40 PM on June 26, 2015
Orange for prison uniform.
Maybe on Kade it's a bit different cos she's a traffic cone, but every single other time I've seen orange on a character it's fit the concept of prison uniform.
posted by tel3path at 6:40 PM on June 26, 2015
Yes and I am glad that they're finally showing Hannibal to be an alienated freak, and also showing that the "dinner parties" are nothing but grotesque and an adolescent sick joke.
European vacation? Dreary bickering with wife who does understand him but charges $300 an hour to listen to him go on about his ex. Make that $500.
I like that Alana specified "Europe" as the place a man of "Hannibal's tastes" would settle. That narrows it down.
posted by tel3path at 6:45 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
European vacation? Dreary bickering with wife who does understand him but charges $300 an hour to listen to him go on about his ex. Make that $500.
I like that Alana specified "Europe" as the place a man of "Hannibal's tastes" would settle. That narrows it down.
posted by tel3path at 6:45 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
The larger, bulkier, more double-breasted garments on Alana are probably to accommodate the back braces, leg braces, and other hardware she's likely wearing underneath.
posted by tel3path at 6:54 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 6:54 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Alana's double breasted coat. It's orange, right?
no, it was bright scarlet to match her lipstick.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:56 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
no, it was bright scarlet to match her lipstick.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:56 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
Huh.
Okay... I have just the thing in my closet.
TO THINK I WAS GOING TO GET RID OF IT
...maybe I'll wait until the end of July to wear it though.
posted by tel3path at 7:04 PM on June 26, 2015
Okay... I have just the thing in my closet.
TO THINK I WAS GOING TO GET RID OF IT
...maybe I'll wait until the end of July to wear it though.
posted by tel3path at 7:04 PM on June 26, 2015
Oh and last week we were told that the offal is the "fifth quarter", the bit at the end that nobody wanted so you gave it to the proletariat.
That's why Hannibal served so much organ meat at his dinner parties.
Yet another covert insult.
posted by tel3path at 7:07 PM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
That's why Hannibal served so much organ meat at his dinner parties.
Yet another covert insult.
posted by tel3path at 7:07 PM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
i fucking hate hannibal by the way in case that wasn't clear
posted by tel3path at 7:08 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 7:08 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
...the CHARACTER I mean!!! Not the fine and compelling TV show of the same name, which must go on forever and never be cancelled! #SaveHannibal NOT YOU DR LECTER, SIT DOWN.
posted by tel3path at 7:09 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 7:09 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
3 Masonic observations
1. I love that Mason is so vulgarly evil his personal physician/murder-flunky is Errol Childress.
2. I spent half the episode strenuously trying to figure out what New Mason's accent was reminding me of. It was this!
3. "I'm all ears. They've just been redistributed." (cf. marrow in the blood)
posted by DaDaDaDave at 7:33 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
1. I love that Mason is so vulgarly evil his personal physician/murder-flunky is Errol Childress.
2. I spent half the episode strenuously trying to figure out what New Mason's accent was reminding me of. It was this!
3. "I'm all ears. They've just been redistributed." (cf. marrow in the blood)
posted by DaDaDaDave at 7:33 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Oh my DDDD that just NAILS New Mason's speech pattern.
I like that Alana specified "Europe" as the place a man of "Hannibal's tastes" would settle. That narrows it down.
This actually elides a lot of stuff they might have gotten in trouble for lifting from SOTL. Since they know we've seen and probably read SOTL if we're following them at this point they just have Alana state the premise that starts Starling's much more prolonged investigation, and then BAM we know how that ends up and a month or so (which we don't even see LOL) later Will is sniffing Hannibal out in his new digs.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:49 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I like that Alana specified "Europe" as the place a man of "Hannibal's tastes" would settle. That narrows it down.
This actually elides a lot of stuff they might have gotten in trouble for lifting from SOTL. Since they know we've seen and probably read SOTL if we're following them at this point they just have Alana state the premise that starts Starling's much more prolonged investigation, and then BAM we know how that ends up and a month or so (which we don't even see LOL) later Will is sniffing Hannibal out in his new digs.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:49 PM on June 26, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'd like it if the radical plan for s4 was that Hannibal realizes that murdering and psychologically torturing people is not very fun, and that people would like him if he would stop. so he does, and he and Will open up a combination dog sanctuary and ice cream parlor. The ice cream is not dogs.
I mean that would be radical.
posted by tel3path at 7:55 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
I mean that would be radical.
posted by tel3path at 7:55 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
tel3path that could start a trend!
The Not-X-Files: Mulder realizes that wanting to believe is kind of stupid and studies to become an actuary.
Law & Order: Bad Cops Gone WIld: Cops who abuse their authority go on a reality show where they're imprisoned with people like the ones they abused. Drop the Soap is a drinking game.
Survivor: Manhattan: Twelve people are dropped off at Grand Central Station with no leads on apartments or job offers. The last one to slink off the island wins a job in Manhattan.
Battlestare Determinator: Every year a peaceful and stable society with extremely high technology reflects on its decision not to pursue human-like AI and there is a big party.
The Modestos: Remember those episodes where Tony Soprano was shot and in his headcanon he was just an ordinary guy and not a mobseter? It's about that guy.
Nearscape: Well they made that one and called it The Muppet Show.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:06 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
The Not-X-Files: Mulder realizes that wanting to believe is kind of stupid and studies to become an actuary.
Law & Order: Bad Cops Gone WIld: Cops who abuse their authority go on a reality show where they're imprisoned with people like the ones they abused. Drop the Soap is a drinking game.
Survivor: Manhattan: Twelve people are dropped off at Grand Central Station with no leads on apartments or job offers. The last one to slink off the island wins a job in Manhattan.
Battlestare Determinator: Every year a peaceful and stable society with extremely high technology reflects on its decision not to pursue human-like AI and there is a big party.
The Modestos: Remember those episodes where Tony Soprano was shot and in his headcanon he was just an ordinary guy and not a mobseter? It's about that guy.
Nearscape: Well they made that one and called it The Muppet Show.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:06 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
This here is the love song of Hannigam in it's current deplorable state.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:16 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by echolalia67 at 8:16 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
tel3path:Also... I can't find any way in which marrow in the bloodstream can cause "thinking differently" - seems like it's a resulting embolism and brain damage would cause that - but I can't find any evidence for that either? I've been trying for at least 18 seconds.
Maybe this is just another expression of Alana's tendency to look for outside influences?
A Google search with "cognitive complications of bone fractures marrow in bloodstream" uncovered this.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:36 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Maybe this is just another expression of Alana's tendency to look for outside influences?
A Google search with "cognitive complications of bone fractures marrow in bloodstream" uncovered this.
posted by echolalia67 at 8:36 PM on June 26, 2015 [3 favorites]
Alana strategically draped in white on her hospital bed/slab evoked The Lamentation of Christ. Not long after her resurrection, so to speak, she is discussing religion with Mason Verger.
Final shot was an advertisement for Will Graham the Fragrance--woodsy, masculine, with hints of leather and wet dog.
posted by fozzie_bear at 9:54 PM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
Final shot was an advertisement for Will Graham the Fragrance--woodsy, masculine, with hints of leather and wet dog.
posted by fozzie_bear at 9:54 PM on June 26, 2015 [5 favorites]
One wiff and he'll want to eat you alive.
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 PM on June 26, 2015 [4 favorites]
Hannibal's dinner parties have always been grotesque jokes, I mean even Chilton finally figures that out, puns and all, it's just they're getting a lot less wickedly subtle and inelegant -- He's getting sloppier and sloppier with every one, which makes that wonderful mix of fear and revulsion and poker face pop in Bedelia's last dinner scene, she could be worried he's gonna get found out, that he's going to kill the couple, and that satanically alluring artistry he had is cheap and failing, all at the same time
It's like watching for favorite artist give in sophomore slump and start churning out hack work. Bedelia used to know how to navigate around Hannibal's mind and it was flattering to think she could outsmart him and stay alive - but now he's just not living up to his own damn standards (or never had them to begin with, cause that fancy patina is part of the person suit) and that also makes him more unpredictable.
posted by The Whelk at 10:47 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's like watching for favorite artist give in sophomore slump and start churning out hack work. Bedelia used to know how to navigate around Hannibal's mind and it was flattering to think she could outsmart him and stay alive - but now he's just not living up to his own damn standards (or never had them to begin with, cause that fancy patina is part of the person suit) and that also makes him more unpredictable.
posted by The Whelk at 10:47 PM on June 26, 2015 [2 favorites]
Alana strategically draped in white on her hospital bed/slab evoked The Lamentation of Christ
Oh, that makes more sense than what I was picturing. Which was Leeloo from The Fifth Element.
posted by Justinian at 2:47 AM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Oh, that makes more sense than what I was picturing. Which was Leeloo from The Fifth Element.
posted by Justinian at 2:47 AM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Watching episodes almost at random yesterday (including the episode from the first season where Will said he was going to give up the whole thing and become a diesel mechanic in a shipyard, which, woah!) I decided that it would be really great if the show could win some award somewhere, if only to hear the house band trying to cover the title music.
posted by Grangousier at 3:13 AM on June 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 3:13 AM on June 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
The boat thing is a detail from the books, and in Manhunter we see Will working on boats (in tiny lavender shorts!)
Most reviews I've read have been like "lol is he REALLY sailing to EUROPE? Impossible!" But it's really not. Doing it alone is more dangerous than doing it with one or two other people, but thousands of smallish sailing yachts like that cross the Atlantic every year. (I do want to go back and check out screenshots to see if I can figure out how many feet the boat is.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:20 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Most reviews I've read have been like "lol is he REALLY sailing to EUROPE? Impossible!" But it's really not. Doing it alone is more dangerous than doing it with one or two other people, but thousands of smallish sailing yachts like that cross the Atlantic every year. (I do want to go back and check out screenshots to see if I can figure out how many feet the boat is.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:20 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
tel3path I'm not totally taking Alana's statements at face value, at this point. Personally I think she is actually trying to do with Mason basically what Will did with Hannibal - present a version of her evilest self to him, because that's what he wants to see. I think she wants Hannibal caught; I'm not convinced she actually wants Mason to kill him, but given the clear crappiness of the FBI at actually catching Hannibal, Mason seems like the best chance to find him.
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:31 AM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:31 AM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Yeah, she's changing faces so completely with whoever she talks to. She'll be saying whatever she needs to.
That whole "it would be the best thing for his therapy" she said to Chilton just raised the hairs on the back of my neck, for the reasons I mentioned above. but, it may not mean what I think it means.
She might turn out to be the hero of this entire story, securing resources for Will to catch Hannibal, then making sure he ends up in the BSHCI rather than killled (by anyone) which would be simultaneously the most infuriating option for Hannibal, and the least inhumane.
posted by tel3path at 3:56 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
That whole "it would be the best thing for his therapy" she said to Chilton just raised the hairs on the back of my neck, for the reasons I mentioned above. but, it may not mean what I think it means.
She might turn out to be the hero of this entire story, securing resources for Will to catch Hannibal, then making sure he ends up in the BSHCI rather than killled (by anyone) which would be simultaneously the most infuriating option for Hannibal, and the least inhumane.
posted by tel3path at 3:56 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I might be reading too much into this (and what else is new), but look back at what Chilton is wearing throughout this episode.
He's wearing the same outfit to visit Will and Mason, but forget that for a sec. Let's start with Will. To visit Will, Chilton has selected a totally cazh brown and cream check with the collar open, no tie. It's exactly the kind of thing Will himself would wear. Then, for Alana, he's in a much more fancy, formal-looking suit and a richly patterned dark tie (and a pink shirt). Which is exactly the sort of thing Hannibal would wear. Then for Jack he basically dresses like he's about to go to work at the FBI - blue striped shirt, much more 'work-y' tie, kind of rumpled hair.
Mason would seem to be the outlier here - Chilton's just wearing the same outfit he later wears for Will - but, firstly, he doesn't really know Mason, and secondly, clearly his point of connection here is his fucked up face.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:00 AM on June 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
He's wearing the same outfit to visit Will and Mason, but forget that for a sec. Let's start with Will. To visit Will, Chilton has selected a totally cazh brown and cream check with the collar open, no tie. It's exactly the kind of thing Will himself would wear. Then, for Alana, he's in a much more fancy, formal-looking suit and a richly patterned dark tie (and a pink shirt). Which is exactly the sort of thing Hannibal would wear. Then for Jack he basically dresses like he's about to go to work at the FBI - blue striped shirt, much more 'work-y' tie, kind of rumpled hair.
Mason would seem to be the outlier here - Chilton's just wearing the same outfit he later wears for Will - but, firstly, he doesn't really know Mason, and secondly, clearly his point of connection here is his fucked up face.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:00 AM on June 27, 2015 [7 favorites]
My Will is so badass. Building his own BOAT and sailing across the ATLANTIC in it.
What a manly man.
Also, Chilton literally lost face.
They did a good job showing he really was disfigured, and also establishing why they wouldn't have to go through all that makeup rigmarole every time.
posted by tel3path at 4:02 AM on June 27, 2015
What a manly man.
Also, Chilton literally lost face.
They did a good job showing he really was disfigured, and also establishing why they wouldn't have to go through all that makeup rigmarole every time.
posted by tel3path at 4:02 AM on June 27, 2015
Bella looked so wonderful in her wedding dress.
I'm so glad they resolved everything between them. And that Jack submitted to a power greater than himself and honoured his wife.
GDI that was a GORGEOUS wedding dress though. Usually wedding dresses look like crap.
Alana picking out the dress for Jack? I can't think of any reason for her to do that other than caring for someone other than herself. Alana has nothing to gain from manipulating Jack at this point. And it's such a change from S2 where Alana never once showed any care for the welfare of any female character.
I just... that line about "it would be the best thing for his therapy", snuck so unobtrusively in the text, really shocked me. I'm still not confident that it doesn't mean what I think it means. But, you know, Alana could so easily have decided that Jack should just go to hell. She didn't.
posted by tel3path at 4:20 AM on June 27, 2015
I'm so glad they resolved everything between them. And that Jack submitted to a power greater than himself and honoured his wife.
GDI that was a GORGEOUS wedding dress though. Usually wedding dresses look like crap.
Alana picking out the dress for Jack? I can't think of any reason for her to do that other than caring for someone other than herself. Alana has nothing to gain from manipulating Jack at this point. And it's such a change from S2 where Alana never once showed any care for the welfare of any female character.
I just... that line about "it would be the best thing for his therapy", snuck so unobtrusively in the text, really shocked me. I'm still not confident that it doesn't mean what I think it means. But, you know, Alana could so easily have decided that Jack should just go to hell. She didn't.
posted by tel3path at 4:20 AM on June 27, 2015
This episode plays a role similar to the one The Body played in Buffy - reminding us that the real enemy is death itself, and no squad of avenging heroes/etc can ever defeat that.
By bringing Bella in in S1 and extending her storyline well into S3, she becomes a constant, with one foot in this world and another in the next.
If you ask me, the designated sane, normal character in this show is actually Bella. In her little screentime, she's spoken the most words of wisdom of any minor character, and inspired the most growth in the characters she leaves behind.
posted by tel3path at 5:08 AM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
By bringing Bella in in S1 and extending her storyline well into S3, she becomes a constant, with one foot in this world and another in the next.
If you ask me, the designated sane, normal character in this show is actually Bella. In her little screentime, she's spoken the most words of wisdom of any minor character, and inspired the most growth in the characters she leaves behind.
posted by tel3path at 5:08 AM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I now have the terrible urge to make a bit of fancrack about Alana and Margot set to Pink Triangle...
posted by sparkletone at 6:23 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sparkletone at 6:23 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Fanfare: woodsy, masculine, with hints of leather and wet dog.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:39 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:39 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I know Will could cross the Atlantic solo in a smallish yacht, but not only was it a little melodramatic flourish in a way I didn't expect, it was a little surprising in how I read the metaphor (although there's still plenty of time to play with it in the show.) I guess I think of those sorts of sea voyages as metaphorically standing in for opportunities to heal, find yourself, get your own head back. If that's the case, Will might arrive in Italy with more of his own self back than he's been able to have before. But he clearly took Abigail along for the ride. That's about a month spent on a small boat talking to an externalized fragment of your own psyche. Did Ghost Beverly make any appearance during the long days and nights, for a change of company?
Also, I may have missed something and haven't had a chance to rewatch yet, but I don't get how Will and Alana's relationship goes from "get out of the Murder House, I'm here thinking my best thoughts about the cannibal who recently nearly killed us all, God, Alana, can't you see I'm busy?" to him asking her to watch the dogs while he sails to Europe and leaves her with some sort of...what, reassurance that he's in on whatever she's thinking or planning? Which may or may not be a double-face to Mason Verger? I'm assuming there has to be a missing something that will be filled in later.
Alana watching Mason gag and choke right after insulting her, with that oh-so-calm and disinterested expression, is the best thing ever. Although I'm not sure - does anyone besides Margot and Hannibal know how bad a human he is?
posted by PussKillian at 7:57 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, I may have missed something and haven't had a chance to rewatch yet, but I don't get how Will and Alana's relationship goes from "get out of the Murder House, I'm here thinking my best thoughts about the cannibal who recently nearly killed us all, God, Alana, can't you see I'm busy?" to him asking her to watch the dogs while he sails to Europe and leaves her with some sort of...what, reassurance that he's in on whatever she's thinking or planning? Which may or may not be a double-face to Mason Verger? I'm assuming there has to be a missing something that will be filled in later.
Alana watching Mason gag and choke right after insulting her, with that oh-so-calm and disinterested expression, is the best thing ever. Although I'm not sure - does anyone besides Margot and Hannibal know how bad a human he is?
posted by PussKillian at 7:57 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Will knows. Margot showed him the scars, and Hannibal wouldn't think just anyone's face is fit only to be dog food.
posted by sparkletone at 10:06 AM on June 27, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 10:06 AM on June 27, 2015
To put it another way: He knew enough to sic Hannibal on him, and didn't that turn out just great (like will sending others after Hannibal always does!)
posted by sparkletone at 10:17 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by sparkletone at 10:17 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I want to know where the boat yard was and why it was snowing there. It's supposed to be Marathon FL in the Keys but whatevs, book canon. I just want to know if it was actually snowing there or if the constantly present snow is an artifact of memory.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:24 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 10:24 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Will Graham lives in Wolf Trap, Virginia, Land Of Always Winter.
posted by The Whelk at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:45 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
YES I KNOW but are we meant to deduce that this is where the boat shed is? for all we know it is in niflheimr
posted by poffin boffin at 10:47 AM on June 27, 2015
posted by poffin boffin at 10:47 AM on June 27, 2015
YES I KNOW but are we meant to deduce that this is where the boat shed is?
The marina where he was keeping the boat must've been on the Potomac somewhere, or in the harbor at Alexandria, or maybe near Annapolis? There have to be a lot of marinas near Washington. I mean, it seems unlikely that he was working on the boat engine in Virginia and then drove it down to Florida (where he doesn't live yet) to put it in the boat and sail the boat to Europe.
I had a friend, though, who kept his boat in Florida although he lived in California. And we don't even know if Will is actually sailing to Europe. He might have fixed the boat motor, sailed the boat from Washington to Florida for future use if he intends to go there when his business with Hannibal is concluded, and then hopped a plane.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:56 AM on June 27, 2015
The marina where he was keeping the boat must've been on the Potomac somewhere, or in the harbor at Alexandria, or maybe near Annapolis? There have to be a lot of marinas near Washington. I mean, it seems unlikely that he was working on the boat engine in Virginia and then drove it down to Florida (where he doesn't live yet) to put it in the boat and sail the boat to Europe.
I had a friend, though, who kept his boat in Florida although he lived in California. And we don't even know if Will is actually sailing to Europe. He might have fixed the boat motor, sailed the boat from Washington to Florida for future use if he intends to go there when his business with Hannibal is concluded, and then hopped a plane.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:56 AM on June 27, 2015
Will graham in boat shoes just imagine
posted by The Whelk at 10:57 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:57 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Mostly I'm concerned about Winston, Buster, et al., as usual.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:59 AM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:59 AM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Margot may be the fly in the ointment of the Revengers plan, she has no love for her brother, and Hannibal and Will have always helped her
Margot seemed to like Alana, though. When Margot surprises Alana, and catches Alana kind of appraising her/trying to figure out what's going on with her, and says "this can be your entrance" while giving Alana a ~significant~ look -- that seemed to me like Margot was offering Alana an invitation. Like, Margot was telling Alana that she herself could be Alana's entrance into the current chapter of the story.
I think they're probably going to hook up. Alana's trying to be all tough, but she's actually pretty vulnerable/brittle/lonely atm, what with her whole world and all her assumptions falling down into ruin around her, and I don't think it would be hard for pretty much anyone to get with her right now because of that. And, judging by how Margot went for Will last season, I think that current!Alana (who is pretty S2!Will-eque right now, and even has his dark, curly hair and pale skin and steely-but-brittle facial expressions down) is totally Margot's type.
Also, this probably doesn't matter anymore, but Alana could probably carry a child. I wonder if Margot's plan of having a Verger baby had to die with her own fertility? Or I guess Alana could offer to carry Mason's child, if she's actually gone COMPLETELY batshit and wants some kind of 9-month-long insurance policy against him hurting her. Well anyway, probably nobody is going to get pregnant.
YMMV, but I really don't like the new Mason. I miss Michael Pitt. And the "born again" thing isn't quite working imo. I would think that Mason would be obsessed with Jesus/God in the same way that Will is obsessed with Hannibal -- God is the one who touched Mason with good fortune/love (by way of the immense wealth) and then ruined him (by way of the mutilation), just like Hannibal touched Will with "love" and then ruined him. But how this version of Mason is playing things, I don't really buy that he feels that strongly about God, tbh. Mason's feelings about God definitely don't seem to rise to the levels of obsession/awe/fear that Will has toward Hannibal. So it's not really working for me. Actually, it's not just in contrast to Will, it's everyone -- *everyone* seems more obsessed/awestruck/fearful of Hannibal than Mason is toward God. And that would be OK and actually would make a lot of thematic sense, I guess, except that I don't think that's intentional, I think this actor just isn't conveying Mason's religious fervor that well.
posted by rue72 at 11:15 AM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Margot seemed to like Alana, though. When Margot surprises Alana, and catches Alana kind of appraising her/trying to figure out what's going on with her, and says "this can be your entrance" while giving Alana a ~significant~ look -- that seemed to me like Margot was offering Alana an invitation. Like, Margot was telling Alana that she herself could be Alana's entrance into the current chapter of the story.
I think they're probably going to hook up. Alana's trying to be all tough, but she's actually pretty vulnerable/brittle/lonely atm, what with her whole world and all her assumptions falling down into ruin around her, and I don't think it would be hard for pretty much anyone to get with her right now because of that. And, judging by how Margot went for Will last season, I think that current!Alana (who is pretty S2!Will-eque right now, and even has his dark, curly hair and pale skin and steely-but-brittle facial expressions down) is totally Margot's type.
Also, this probably doesn't matter anymore, but Alana could probably carry a child. I wonder if Margot's plan of having a Verger baby had to die with her own fertility? Or I guess Alana could offer to carry Mason's child, if she's actually gone COMPLETELY batshit and wants some kind of 9-month-long insurance policy against him hurting her. Well anyway, probably nobody is going to get pregnant.
YMMV, but I really don't like the new Mason. I miss Michael Pitt. And the "born again" thing isn't quite working imo. I would think that Mason would be obsessed with Jesus/God in the same way that Will is obsessed with Hannibal -- God is the one who touched Mason with good fortune/love (by way of the immense wealth) and then ruined him (by way of the mutilation), just like Hannibal touched Will with "love" and then ruined him. But how this version of Mason is playing things, I don't really buy that he feels that strongly about God, tbh. Mason's feelings about God definitely don't seem to rise to the levels of obsession/awe/fear that Will has toward Hannibal. So it's not really working for me. Actually, it's not just in contrast to Will, it's everyone -- *everyone* seems more obsessed/awestruck/fearful of Hannibal than Mason is toward God. And that would be OK and actually would make a lot of thematic sense, I guess, except that I don't think that's intentional, I think this actor just isn't conveying Mason's religious fervor that well.
posted by rue72 at 11:15 AM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
To put it another way: He knew enough to sic Hannibal on him, and didn't that turn out just great (like will sending others after Hannibal always does!)
Though Will set Mason on Hannibal first. Part of the whole bit there was that Will knew Mason had forced an abortion and sterilization on Margot, but he also knew that Hannibal orchestrated the entire situation to try and goad Will himself into killing Mason. It's not really until Will is confronted with the fact that Mason is going to kill him right after he's done with Hannibal that Will decides to stand back and let Lecter have his fun with Mason.
Stepping away from that, it occurs to me that the characters' personal worlds are coming together in a way they never did in previous seasons. Obviously we get the Vergers interacting with Alana and Chilton, but we also get Will attending Bella's funeral despite having no interaction with her whatsoever onscreen.
How much of this is deliberate structuring and how much is writing around scheduling and budget issues, who knows. The way the show tends to instantly forget side characters like Peter or Miriam as soon as their actors cease being available is one of the worst consequences of the production constraints the show is under, and it adds to the feeling of narrative fragmentation that overtook parts of season 2.
Heck, the absence of Kade Purnell in parts of that season and in this one is rather striking; surely she should've turned up for clarity's sake somewhere in this episode, for example. Ditto the absence of the lab guys, who you'd imagine might visit the protagonists in the hospital or attend Bella's memorial to support Jack, "fogs os suspicion" be damned.
posted by kewb at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Though Will set Mason on Hannibal first. Part of the whole bit there was that Will knew Mason had forced an abortion and sterilization on Margot, but he also knew that Hannibal orchestrated the entire situation to try and goad Will himself into killing Mason. It's not really until Will is confronted with the fact that Mason is going to kill him right after he's done with Hannibal that Will decides to stand back and let Lecter have his fun with Mason.
Stepping away from that, it occurs to me that the characters' personal worlds are coming together in a way they never did in previous seasons. Obviously we get the Vergers interacting with Alana and Chilton, but we also get Will attending Bella's funeral despite having no interaction with her whatsoever onscreen.
How much of this is deliberate structuring and how much is writing around scheduling and budget issues, who knows. The way the show tends to instantly forget side characters like Peter or Miriam as soon as their actors cease being available is one of the worst consequences of the production constraints the show is under, and it adds to the feeling of narrative fragmentation that overtook parts of season 2.
Heck, the absence of Kade Purnell in parts of that season and in this one is rather striking; surely she should've turned up for clarity's sake somewhere in this episode, for example. Ditto the absence of the lab guys, who you'd imagine might visit the protagonists in the hospital or attend Bella's memorial to support Jack, "fogs os suspicion" be damned.
posted by kewb at 11:18 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, does Margot know that what happened to her was in some sense one of Lecter's manipulations, or not? She's a smart enough character to work it out, but it's not clear she'd *want* to work it out.
posted by kewb at 11:19 AM on June 27, 2015
posted by kewb at 11:19 AM on June 27, 2015
I would think that Mason would be obsessed with Jesus/God in the same way that Will is obsessed with Hannibal
Mason's whole shtick is that he's a small child who likes pulling the wings off of flies because daddy told him that cruelly dominating living things is what makes you a big man. He's into God as a kind of pop-psych ego booster because that's roughly the limit of his depth.
posted by kewb at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2015
Mason's whole shtick is that he's a small child who likes pulling the wings off of flies because daddy told him that cruelly dominating living things is what makes you a big man. He's into God as a kind of pop-psych ego booster because that's roughly the limit of his depth.
posted by kewb at 11:22 AM on June 27, 2015
The image of Jack holding Bella as she dies, with his face pressed as close to hers as he can get it, broke my heart.
It also broke my heart to see the flashback of Jack was bleeding out in the pantry and trying frantically to talk to Bella one last time before dying.
The thing about Jack is, the only thing I like about him is how he feels about Bella. But how he feels about Bella and seeing him with Bella is so powerful, that it ends up overshadowing everything else and always gets me rooting for him/caring about him in the end.
Also, does Margot know that what happened to her was in some sense one of Lecter's manipulations, or not? She's a smart enough character to work it out, but it's not clear she'd *want* to work it out.
Margot seemed very capable at picking up whatever Hannibal was putting down.
Hannibal is the one who guided her toward Will (as someone to impregnate her) in the first place, and I think the saga of Margot losing the ability to deal with Mason herself, as she wanted (by having a baby and killing him), but Mason being punished and put at her mercy regardless (by him being mutilated and crippled), clearly has Hannibal's fingerprints all over it. I mean, I think that Hannibal meant to have his fingerprints all over it and I think that Margot understands the way that Hannibal communicates well enough to spot them.
So I think that she's in a sort of position where, his affect on her life has been kind of a wash. But if she were offered a way to feel empowered over him, I don't think she'd eschew it out of loyalty or anything.
Mason's whole shtick is that he's a small child who likes pulling the wings off of flies because daddy told him that cruelly dominating living things is what makes you a big man. He's into God as a kind of pop-psych ego booster because that's roughly the limit of his depth.
His feelings didn't just seem shallow, though, they seemed like they weren't even that strong. Like, when he talked about "lamentations of his women," there wasn't really any bloodthirstiness or glee or anything there imo. It just seemed kind of staid and dry and bloodless.
And Mason's glee and bloodthirstiness was what I liked about him before, so I miss that.
But eh, maybe I just don't like change and will warm up to this new actor and this new Mason soon enough!
posted by rue72 at 11:31 AM on June 27, 2015
It also broke my heart to see the flashback of Jack was bleeding out in the pantry and trying frantically to talk to Bella one last time before dying.
The thing about Jack is, the only thing I like about him is how he feels about Bella. But how he feels about Bella and seeing him with Bella is so powerful, that it ends up overshadowing everything else and always gets me rooting for him/caring about him in the end.
Also, does Margot know that what happened to her was in some sense one of Lecter's manipulations, or not? She's a smart enough character to work it out, but it's not clear she'd *want* to work it out.
Margot seemed very capable at picking up whatever Hannibal was putting down.
Hannibal is the one who guided her toward Will (as someone to impregnate her) in the first place, and I think the saga of Margot losing the ability to deal with Mason herself, as she wanted (by having a baby and killing him), but Mason being punished and put at her mercy regardless (by him being mutilated and crippled), clearly has Hannibal's fingerprints all over it. I mean, I think that Hannibal meant to have his fingerprints all over it and I think that Margot understands the way that Hannibal communicates well enough to spot them.
So I think that she's in a sort of position where, his affect on her life has been kind of a wash. But if she were offered a way to feel empowered over him, I don't think she'd eschew it out of loyalty or anything.
Mason's whole shtick is that he's a small child who likes pulling the wings off of flies because daddy told him that cruelly dominating living things is what makes you a big man. He's into God as a kind of pop-psych ego booster because that's roughly the limit of his depth.
His feelings didn't just seem shallow, though, they seemed like they weren't even that strong. Like, when he talked about "lamentations of his women," there wasn't really any bloodthirstiness or glee or anything there imo. It just seemed kind of staid and dry and bloodless.
And Mason's glee and bloodthirstiness was what I liked about him before, so I miss that.
But eh, maybe I just don't like change and will warm up to this new actor and this new Mason soon enough!
posted by rue72 at 11:31 AM on June 27, 2015
Put another way, Mason is constructed almost entirely as a foil to Lecter both here and in the source material:
-- Hannibal turns his victims into culinary art; Mason giggles about reducing them to pig slop.
-- Hannibal has Old World tastes and style; Mason is flashy and vulgar.
-- Lecter gaslights people for months and brainwashes them into his pawns, to the point that they can't escape his orbit even after they know the truth about him; Mason uses crude intimidation and everyone he targets quickly pushes back against his crass bullying.
-- Lecter has a warped personal theology built on the likes of Schopenhauer; Mason knows that Jesus was way cool and reflects a kind of reflexive, childish use of American Protestantism as a way to signal personal identity and feel good about himself.
-- Lecter builds whole new respectable identities for himself out of nothing, commits all his murders himself, and travels the world; Mason relies entirely on his inherited wealth and family connections and on his hirelings even before Hannibal drives the point home by leaving Mason literally confined to his family estate for life.
There's a reason Lecter destroys Mason rather effortlessly once Will stops helping. And there's a reason his revenge plot in the book and film Hannibal spectacularly blows up in his face.
posted by kewb at 11:32 AM on June 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
-- Hannibal turns his victims into culinary art; Mason giggles about reducing them to pig slop.
-- Hannibal has Old World tastes and style; Mason is flashy and vulgar.
-- Lecter gaslights people for months and brainwashes them into his pawns, to the point that they can't escape his orbit even after they know the truth about him; Mason uses crude intimidation and everyone he targets quickly pushes back against his crass bullying.
-- Lecter has a warped personal theology built on the likes of Schopenhauer; Mason knows that Jesus was way cool and reflects a kind of reflexive, childish use of American Protestantism as a way to signal personal identity and feel good about himself.
-- Lecter builds whole new respectable identities for himself out of nothing, commits all his murders himself, and travels the world; Mason relies entirely on his inherited wealth and family connections and on his hirelings even before Hannibal drives the point home by leaving Mason literally confined to his family estate for life.
There's a reason Lecter destroys Mason rather effortlessly once Will stops helping. And there's a reason his revenge plot in the book and film Hannibal spectacularly blows up in his face.
posted by kewb at 11:32 AM on June 27, 2015 [10 favorites]
-- Hannibal has Old World tastes and style; Mason is flashy and vulgar.
Yes, I love the contrast between last week's Castle Lecter and this week's Ersatz Castle Verger.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:37 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, I love the contrast between last week's Castle Lecter and this week's Ersatz Castle Verger.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:37 AM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Will Graham lives in Wolf Trap, Virginia, Land Of Always Winter.
The entire Metro DC area of Hannibal is a mystical place of perpetually empty roads and brisk travel, a place where you can hop a cab and get from Alexandria to Baltimore in twenty minutes or whatever (Will does something like this in the last episode of S2, but I don't remember what, exactly). This is...not the Metro DC of our world. By extension, I believe Will could build a boat and sail from Florida or DC or Timbuktu to Italy in a week or so; why not.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:38 AM on June 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
The entire Metro DC area of Hannibal is a mystical place of perpetually empty roads and brisk travel, a place where you can hop a cab and get from Alexandria to Baltimore in twenty minutes or whatever (Will does something like this in the last episode of S2, but I don't remember what, exactly). This is...not the Metro DC of our world. By extension, I believe Will could build a boat and sail from Florida or DC or Timbuktu to Italy in a week or so; why not.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:38 AM on June 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
-- Hannibal has Old World tastes and style; Mason is flashy and vulgar.
I see what you're saying and don't entirely disagree, but I guess my issue is that Hannibal himself is so low-rent.
"Old World tastes and style" and "flashy and vulgar" aren't mutually exclusive. I find Hannibal himself extremely flashy and vulgar.
That's even how Alana posits they catch him -- they just have to follow the breadcrumbs of flashy, vulgar, OTT ~tasteful~ tastes. That's also Bedelia's complaint about Hannibal in the season premiere -- that he's more interested in making appearances than keeping them. It's going to be his undoing, I assume.
Mason's the American version of the same thing that Hannibal is imo. Except that Mason really is American aristocracy, whereas who knows what ~European~ pit Hannibal crawled out of.
posted by rue72 at 11:47 AM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I see what you're saying and don't entirely disagree, but I guess my issue is that Hannibal himself is so low-rent.
"Old World tastes and style" and "flashy and vulgar" aren't mutually exclusive. I find Hannibal himself extremely flashy and vulgar.
That's even how Alana posits they catch him -- they just have to follow the breadcrumbs of flashy, vulgar, OTT ~tasteful~ tastes. That's also Bedelia's complaint about Hannibal in the season premiere -- that he's more interested in making appearances than keeping them. It's going to be his undoing, I assume.
Mason's the American version of the same thing that Hannibal is imo. Except that Mason really is American aristocracy, whereas who knows what ~European~ pit Hannibal crawled out of.
posted by rue72 at 11:47 AM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
guys
guys
oh my god guys
i just made the connection
Raul Esparza narrates the audiobook of Stephen King's Under the Dome, which is a good book with a really shitty ending.
I've been having the voice of Doctor Chilton in my head via Stephen King rotate through my head every six months or so if I have that book on as background as I do some meaningless chore. AND I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW
And now I definitely have some *feelings* about Raul Esparza. This is after I sort of fell in love with Bob Newkirk earlier this year.
So apparently my crushes in my forties are upon actors who are in shows in which they are dismembered or otherwise humiliated. Welp, good thing I'm in therapy.
posted by angrycat at 11:47 AM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
guys
oh my god guys
i just made the connection
Raul Esparza narrates the audiobook of Stephen King's Under the Dome, which is a good book with a really shitty ending.
I've been having the voice of Doctor Chilton in my head via Stephen King rotate through my head every six months or so if I have that book on as background as I do some meaningless chore. AND I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW
And now I definitely have some *feelings* about Raul Esparza. This is after I sort of fell in love with Bob Newkirk earlier this year.
So apparently my crushes in my forties are upon actors who are in shows in which they are dismembered or otherwise humiliated. Welp, good thing I'm in therapy.
posted by angrycat at 11:47 AM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Mason doesn't actually believe in God in any way, shape or form. Margot said last season "everybody loves a repentant sinner". A big problem in certain religious communities is the misuse of faux-repentance and apologies by offenders, who then go on to victimize their targets again and again. By saying these magic words, Mason remains the golden child of his family while Margot remains the black sheep. It's just like Hannibal is always able to say $ANY_EXPLANATION_WHATSOEVER and be instantly off the hook for everything that happens ever.
It was pretty clear to me that Will was working on that boat engine in his barn, the same barn where he kept the Murder Bear Exoskeleton and the freezer last season. He only needs to know the engine works before installing it. Jack was expecting to find Will at home in the penultimate scene.
The first impression of Alana is that she's Turned, but it's actually not that clear when she's stating her true intentions and when she isn't. She said that Will pursuing Hannibal would be the "best thing for his therapy" and given the history of that phrase I think Alana is looking forward to Will being killed, but she may have just said that for show. But then, she may also have accepted that he's going to go after Hannibal no matter what, and utilizing that towards her own end of capturing Hannibal (I am pretty sure at this point that capturing Hannibal IS her goal, just not sure in what form). She may be reckless as what happens to him and content to leave him to his fate, or she may actually intend to Save Him properly this time.
I'm still holding out hope for Alana rugby-tackling Hannibal and running off into the sunset with him, but I don't know how to square that with what I've heard about the rest of the season.
Once again, we have an Alana who may not be as she appears and who may go either way. That is definitely Interesting. And they're giving CD a chance to show the same range as HD did in S2.
I think they could have laid on the innuendo a bit thicker between Margot and Alana? Like maybe a neon sign over their heads or something?
Will has been perfectly clear that he is ambivalent towards Hannibal, indeed that he wishes he'd killed Jack and gone off with him, and doesn't know whose side he is on or what he intends to do when he finds Hannibal. Whatever arrangements he made with Alana would have been made in a spirit of more or less open mutual mistrust and antagonism, I think.
Jack and Alana seem to have swapped places, with Jack being the one who doesn't care about anything but bringing Will home safe and sound, and Alana not caring about anything except Catching The Bastard.
The whole fat embolism thing - reminds me of Blind Person Hit On Head, Conveniently Knocks Retinas Back Into Place, Can See Again because head injuries are awesome. At least they were a little more intelligent about this one. Because I was thinking injuries like that, there's just no way Alana comes out of it looking the same and without serious head injuries, and they took care of that in a roundabout way so that she looks the same but not the same at all, and has no clinically significant damage but has definitely, definitely changed in a way that doesn't seem explainable by life experience alone - nearly explainable but juuuuuuuuust not quite.
posted by tel3path at 11:55 AM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
It was pretty clear to me that Will was working on that boat engine in his barn, the same barn where he kept the Murder Bear Exoskeleton and the freezer last season. He only needs to know the engine works before installing it. Jack was expecting to find Will at home in the penultimate scene.
The first impression of Alana is that she's Turned, but it's actually not that clear when she's stating her true intentions and when she isn't. She said that Will pursuing Hannibal would be the "best thing for his therapy" and given the history of that phrase I think Alana is looking forward to Will being killed, but she may have just said that for show. But then, she may also have accepted that he's going to go after Hannibal no matter what, and utilizing that towards her own end of capturing Hannibal (I am pretty sure at this point that capturing Hannibal IS her goal, just not sure in what form). She may be reckless as what happens to him and content to leave him to his fate, or she may actually intend to Save Him properly this time.
I'm still holding out hope for Alana rugby-tackling Hannibal and running off into the sunset with him, but I don't know how to square that with what I've heard about the rest of the season.
Once again, we have an Alana who may not be as she appears and who may go either way. That is definitely Interesting. And they're giving CD a chance to show the same range as HD did in S2.
I think they could have laid on the innuendo a bit thicker between Margot and Alana? Like maybe a neon sign over their heads or something?
Will has been perfectly clear that he is ambivalent towards Hannibal, indeed that he wishes he'd killed Jack and gone off with him, and doesn't know whose side he is on or what he intends to do when he finds Hannibal. Whatever arrangements he made with Alana would have been made in a spirit of more or less open mutual mistrust and antagonism, I think.
Jack and Alana seem to have swapped places, with Jack being the one who doesn't care about anything but bringing Will home safe and sound, and Alana not caring about anything except Catching The Bastard.
The whole fat embolism thing - reminds me of Blind Person Hit On Head, Conveniently Knocks Retinas Back Into Place, Can See Again because head injuries are awesome. At least they were a little more intelligent about this one. Because I was thinking injuries like that, there's just no way Alana comes out of it looking the same and without serious head injuries, and they took care of that in a roundabout way so that she looks the same but not the same at all, and has no clinically significant damage but has definitely, definitely changed in a way that doesn't seem explainable by life experience alone - nearly explainable but juuuuuuuuust not quite.
posted by tel3path at 11:55 AM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I find Hannibal himself extremely flashy and vulgar.
Lololol you couldn't be more right!
Of course it's the height of sophistication to go around in an orange shirt with a blue plaid suit, or a red windowpane check on black suit. It's all high design and wonderful, but it's vulgar as fuck.
The guy really hit rock bottom when he transported Anthony Dimmond's remains in a monogrammed Vuitton trunk. Guy is such a hillarible piece of Eurotrash it's unreal.
You know who has good taste in this show? Will Graham, that's who! And the crass, vulgar, unwashed masses do not appreciate that at all.
posted by tel3path at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Lololol you couldn't be more right!
Of course it's the height of sophistication to go around in an orange shirt with a blue plaid suit, or a red windowpane check on black suit. It's all high design and wonderful, but it's vulgar as fuck.
The guy really hit rock bottom when he transported Anthony Dimmond's remains in a monogrammed Vuitton trunk. Guy is such a hillarible piece of Eurotrash it's unreal.
You know who has good taste in this show? Will Graham, that's who! And the crass, vulgar, unwashed masses do not appreciate that at all.
posted by tel3path at 11:59 AM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
I'm now peeing myself laughing at the thought of all those WASPy dinner guests whispering amongst themselves "He's a Count, you know!"
Meanwhile, Will Graham, the ultimate American self-made man with 0 family and $0 in his family fortune, makes an excellent living and can build a boat with his hands and build a fire without a lighter and all kinds of stuff like that. But, he's pathetic and unstable and a slob, as far as the average viewer knows. Lol.
posted by tel3path at 12:01 PM on June 27, 2015
Meanwhile, Will Graham, the ultimate American self-made man with 0 family and $0 in his family fortune, makes an excellent living and can build a boat with his hands and build a fire without a lighter and all kinds of stuff like that. But, he's pathetic and unstable and a slob, as far as the average viewer knows. Lol.
posted by tel3path at 12:01 PM on June 27, 2015
Sigh, the metaphor is that Will is in the good morally dubious at best ship Hannigram entirely on his own, and his only companions are imaginary.
posted by tel3path at 12:02 PM on June 27, 2015
posted by tel3path at 12:02 PM on June 27, 2015
By saying these magic words, Mason remains the golden child of his family while Margot remains the black sheep.
This is true in the novel and films, where Mason's past as a proven sex offender against children is flagged up. In the show, Mason only starts in on the holly roller talk after he is left mutilated, and the official record is that this was an accident with his pigs rather than the books' "only survivor of a captured, convicted Lecter" setup. As such, Mason's turn to religious cant seems rather undermotivated. I don't know that the show's Mason doesn't believe in God; seeing a profession of faith as "magic words" that get you out of trouble isn't incompatible with the idea that Mason *actually thinks that's how faith works.*
He's not exactly a deep thinker, after all.
Mason's the American version of the same thing that Hannibal is imo.
The show and the novels have pretty clearly internalized the old American inferiority complex with regard to Europe. And Lecter is pretty clearly European aristocracy based on the previous episode; heck, the whole point of phrases like "American aristocracy" and "Southern aristocracy" is in part pointing out how any claims to aristocracy in the U.S. are somewhat like ersatz imitations of Old World aristocracy. Ol World aristocrats had actual titles and political authority. "American artistocrats" have money.
In the real world, I think it's all just vulgar displays of wealth masquerading as some kind of "nobility of blood" bullshit. But the show and the novels appear to buy into the cultural complex even if some of us in the audience don't.
posted by kewb at 12:04 PM on June 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
This is true in the novel and films, where Mason's past as a proven sex offender against children is flagged up. In the show, Mason only starts in on the holly roller talk after he is left mutilated, and the official record is that this was an accident with his pigs rather than the books' "only survivor of a captured, convicted Lecter" setup. As such, Mason's turn to religious cant seems rather undermotivated. I don't know that the show's Mason doesn't believe in God; seeing a profession of faith as "magic words" that get you out of trouble isn't incompatible with the idea that Mason *actually thinks that's how faith works.*
He's not exactly a deep thinker, after all.
Mason's the American version of the same thing that Hannibal is imo.
The show and the novels have pretty clearly internalized the old American inferiority complex with regard to Europe. And Lecter is pretty clearly European aristocracy based on the previous episode; heck, the whole point of phrases like "American aristocracy" and "Southern aristocracy" is in part pointing out how any claims to aristocracy in the U.S. are somewhat like ersatz imitations of Old World aristocracy. Ol World aristocrats had actual titles and political authority. "American artistocrats" have money.
In the real world, I think it's all just vulgar displays of wealth masquerading as some kind of "nobility of blood" bullshit. But the show and the novels appear to buy into the cultural complex even if some of us in the audience don't.
posted by kewb at 12:04 PM on June 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
Or, to put it another way (and what a habit this is becoming!): Hannibal is vulgar in the sense that he reflects decay, perversion, and decadence; Mason is vulgar in that he is an overgrown, spoiled child. And Will is a good old salt of the earth working man.
Hannibal Lecter as Willy Wonka has come up before, come to think of it. Just picture Will as Charlie Bucket and Mason as Violet Beauregard, complete with imposed disfigurement.
posted by kewb at 12:07 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hannibal Lecter as Willy Wonka has come up before, come to think of it. Just picture Will as Charlie Bucket and Mason as Violet Beauregard, complete with imposed disfigurement.
posted by kewb at 12:07 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's not really until Will is confronted with the fact that Mason is going to kill him right after he's done with Hannibal that Will decides to stand back and let Lecter have his fun with Mason.
And even then - it wasn't so much a decision he made, he went home after a hard day's having his head bashed in and being kidnapped and watching his boyfrenemy get suspended over a pit of man-eating pigs, and instead of being able to put his feet up and enjoy a whisky in peace, he finds Hannibal has entered his house uninvited and is entertaining a guest there! And then it got disturbing.
Like I said before, I guess we could have demanded that Will do some kung fu or something, but it's really hard to think of a polite way out of that situation, especially when you've had a recent head injury. It's more like something that was done to Will than like something Will did.
I feel like Jack is now carrying around this abundance of love he had for Bella and is looking for someone to give it away to, and that person is now Will.
Bella's wedding dress was really, really awesome.
Just went downtown and got my nails done Alana Red and also got my toenails painted Alana Peacock Green.
You know, in that red coat... Alana is indeed acting tough but, Red Riding Hood anyone?
posted by tel3path at 12:09 PM on June 27, 2015
And even then - it wasn't so much a decision he made, he went home after a hard day's having his head bashed in and being kidnapped and watching his boyfrenemy get suspended over a pit of man-eating pigs, and instead of being able to put his feet up and enjoy a whisky in peace, he finds Hannibal has entered his house uninvited and is entertaining a guest there! And then it got disturbing.
Like I said before, I guess we could have demanded that Will do some kung fu or something, but it's really hard to think of a polite way out of that situation, especially when you've had a recent head injury. It's more like something that was done to Will than like something Will did.
I feel like Jack is now carrying around this abundance of love he had for Bella and is looking for someone to give it away to, and that person is now Will.
Bella's wedding dress was really, really awesome.
Just went downtown and got my nails done Alana Red and also got my toenails painted Alana Peacock Green.
You know, in that red coat... Alana is indeed acting tough but, Red Riding Hood anyone?
posted by tel3path at 12:09 PM on June 27, 2015
Well, see, I don't think good taste is all that important myself. Which is not to say I fetishize bad taste either - that's worse.
But the show has made me willing to go out and buy a ton of Alana-esque dresses even though clearly Alana wore the stuff she wore because she had internalized Hannibal's vulgarity. A red dress covered with little blue Pac-Men? Priceless! Who wouldn't want one of those?
Meanwhile, Bedelia is the embodiment of good taste and it's all rather strangulated and stifled - as beautiful as it is. Oh, a black skirt and a white blouse? Groundbreaking.
posted by tel3path at 12:14 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
But the show has made me willing to go out and buy a ton of Alana-esque dresses even though clearly Alana wore the stuff she wore because she had internalized Hannibal's vulgarity. A red dress covered with little blue Pac-Men? Priceless! Who wouldn't want one of those?
Meanwhile, Bedelia is the embodiment of good taste and it's all rather strangulated and stifled - as beautiful as it is. Oh, a black skirt and a white blouse? Groundbreaking.
posted by tel3path at 12:14 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
And even then - it wasn't so much a decision he made, he went home after a hard day's having his head bashed in and being kidnapped and watching his boyfrenemy get suspended over a pit of man-eating pigs, and instead of being able to put his feet up and enjoy a whisky in peace, he finds Hannibal has entered his house uninvited and is entertaining a guest there! And then it got disturbing.
I'm thinking more in terms of Will cutting Lecter loose rather than following Mason's instructions to slit Lecter's throat. We know he's fantasizing about doing just that, but a combination of THE FEELS and the understanding that Will is next into the sty seems to motivate Will to let Lecter loose.
Will didn't expect Lecter to take things to Will's own house, granted, but he's certainly not all that surprised that Hannibal was the winner of the confrontation with Mason and Carlo once Mason no longer had surprise on his side.
posted by kewb at 12:18 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm thinking more in terms of Will cutting Lecter loose rather than following Mason's instructions to slit Lecter's throat. We know he's fantasizing about doing just that, but a combination of THE FEELS and the understanding that Will is next into the sty seems to motivate Will to let Lecter loose.
Will didn't expect Lecter to take things to Will's own house, granted, but he's certainly not all that surprised that Hannibal was the winner of the confrontation with Mason and Carlo once Mason no longer had surprise on his side.
posted by kewb at 12:18 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Meanwhile, back in the nice!Hanniverse - Will is often not picking up calls, and spending a lot of time occupied on some project or other. Hanni is worried that he's growing distant.
And then he unveils - the boat! The boat that the two of them are going to sail to Italy in together!
"Oh my clever, manly hero!" gushes nice!Hannibal! "Is it - for our honeymoon? You're so romantic in your all-American, hands-on, working-class way!"
"Not our honeymoon," explains Will. "The plan is, we sail to Italy, it'll take eighteen to twenty days, and if both of us get off the boat alive at the end of it, or at least dead of strictly natural causes, that proves we can stand each other enough to get married." nice!Hanni gives him a sour, narrow look. Neither of them fully appreciate how astute a test this really is.
posted by tel3path at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
And then he unveils - the boat! The boat that the two of them are going to sail to Italy in together!
"Oh my clever, manly hero!" gushes nice!Hannibal! "Is it - for our honeymoon? You're so romantic in your all-American, hands-on, working-class way!"
"Not our honeymoon," explains Will. "The plan is, we sail to Italy, it'll take eighteen to twenty days, and if both of us get off the boat alive at the end of it, or at least dead of strictly natural causes, that proves we can stand each other enough to get married." nice!Hanni gives him a sour, narrow look. Neither of them fully appreciate how astute a test this really is.
posted by tel3path at 12:21 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Also, could you simply let someone be eaten alive by pigs, whether or not you thought you would be next? I wouldn't. Honestly, it's not surprising Will couldn't act out his fantasy of slitting Hannibal's throat in real life. Human decency tends to militate against that (and yes I am taking into account the stuff Will had done up to then).
posted by tel3path at 12:23 PM on June 27, 2015
posted by tel3path at 12:23 PM on June 27, 2015
Also I think Will doesn't want to kill Hannibal for two reasons, more more obvious then and one more obvious now.
1) Killing Hannibal means he's won and he has given into the part of himself and everyone was right, he is a monster and fuckup. PLUS, it's like Hannibal never existed. He needs to be caught and publicly exposed if Will is going to have any kind of closure.
2) Will's been saying he's been on the fence for a while, and if Hannibal is dead - he can't talk to him anymore - so he's gunning for capture and incarceration as the Best Of All Options for Will and even then he was still considering running away with him.
posted by The Whelk at 1:04 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
1) Killing Hannibal means he's won and he has given into the part of himself and everyone was right, he is a monster and fuckup. PLUS, it's like Hannibal never existed. He needs to be caught and publicly exposed if Will is going to have any kind of closure.
2) Will's been saying he's been on the fence for a while, and if Hannibal is dead - he can't talk to him anymore - so he's gunning for capture and incarceration as the Best Of All Options for Will and even then he was still considering running away with him.
posted by The Whelk at 1:04 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Ol World aristocrats had actual titles and political authority. "American artistocrats" have money.
Money *is* authority. Mason has inherited wealth, he is pretty literally landed gentry. That's why there even could be all that fuss last season about Verger heirs and wills, etc. And Mason's treated like aristocracy, too. His madness is just an "eccentricity." Even Margot only murmurs and understated, "if he offers you chocolate, don't take it," when his ~prolectivities~ come up. Now, Mason has even begun implicitly claiming the le droit divin des rois with all his God talk.
He's also the *embodiment* of traditional aristocracy. His subjects are pigs who he feeds slops and bodies -- bread and circuses, in other words. Those pigs are also who he feeds on and who are the backbone of his wealth. Beneath the (literal) mask he wears, he's not all that far off from being a pig, too -- it's written all over his face. But he actually *is* "better" enough than his pigs that feeding off them isn't cannibalism. Yeah, it's all dirty, brutal, and utterly tasteless but that's what aristocracy is. Mason is the real version of *exactly* what Hannibal pretends to be.
That's why I say that I don't entirely disagree with you -- I pretty much agree, actually, except that I think that Hannibal is the knock off, and Mason is the real thing.
Hannibal is a try-hard scammer. And in Europe, people seem to actually be sniffing that out. He's trying to make a splash, but he's "off" in how he's doing it. And part of how he's "off" is exactly the ~sophistication~ and ~taste~ that's part of his schtick.
Hannibal is like an imitation Vermeer painting. In Baltimore, where almost nobody had seen a real Vermeer before and they were *all* so eager and proud to have one in their city, he looked gorgeous. Even next to Baltimore's unquestionably real Warhol (Mason), he looked lush and sophisticated, and like the "real" masterwork. But now that he's being placed next to a real Vermeer, he suddenly doesn't pass so well. He's just a little too glossy and chintzy. Exactly the gloss that made him look so good in Baltimore makes him look strange and cheap in Florence.
That's another reason why I really liked the Phantom of the Opera vibe in an earlier episode. To me, Hannibal and his (w)angst doesn't feel operatic in the sense of actual opera, it feels more like a Broadway version of "opera." It feels more like Phantom of the Opera than like La Traviata. Personally, I'm a sucker for both musicals and operas -- that's not a dig. But it's like Hannibal (the character, not the show) is inviting people to his opera performance and then starts singing, "The Music of the Night," and in Italy, that doesn't *quite* fly. Even though his rendition of "The Music of the Night" is flawless! :P
posted by rue72 at 1:34 PM on June 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
Money *is* authority. Mason has inherited wealth, he is pretty literally landed gentry. That's why there even could be all that fuss last season about Verger heirs and wills, etc. And Mason's treated like aristocracy, too. His madness is just an "eccentricity." Even Margot only murmurs and understated, "if he offers you chocolate, don't take it," when his ~prolectivities~ come up. Now, Mason has even begun implicitly claiming the le droit divin des rois with all his God talk.
He's also the *embodiment* of traditional aristocracy. His subjects are pigs who he feeds slops and bodies -- bread and circuses, in other words. Those pigs are also who he feeds on and who are the backbone of his wealth. Beneath the (literal) mask he wears, he's not all that far off from being a pig, too -- it's written all over his face. But he actually *is* "better" enough than his pigs that feeding off them isn't cannibalism. Yeah, it's all dirty, brutal, and utterly tasteless but that's what aristocracy is. Mason is the real version of *exactly* what Hannibal pretends to be.
That's why I say that I don't entirely disagree with you -- I pretty much agree, actually, except that I think that Hannibal is the knock off, and Mason is the real thing.
Hannibal is a try-hard scammer. And in Europe, people seem to actually be sniffing that out. He's trying to make a splash, but he's "off" in how he's doing it. And part of how he's "off" is exactly the ~sophistication~ and ~taste~ that's part of his schtick.
Hannibal is like an imitation Vermeer painting. In Baltimore, where almost nobody had seen a real Vermeer before and they were *all* so eager and proud to have one in their city, he looked gorgeous. Even next to Baltimore's unquestionably real Warhol (Mason), he looked lush and sophisticated, and like the "real" masterwork. But now that he's being placed next to a real Vermeer, he suddenly doesn't pass so well. He's just a little too glossy and chintzy. Exactly the gloss that made him look so good in Baltimore makes him look strange and cheap in Florence.
That's another reason why I really liked the Phantom of the Opera vibe in an earlier episode. To me, Hannibal and his (w)angst doesn't feel operatic in the sense of actual opera, it feels more like a Broadway version of "opera." It feels more like Phantom of the Opera than like La Traviata. Personally, I'm a sucker for both musicals and operas -- that's not a dig. But it's like Hannibal (the character, not the show) is inviting people to his opera performance and then starts singing, "The Music of the Night," and in Italy, that doesn't *quite* fly. Even though his rendition of "The Music of the Night" is flawless! :P
posted by rue72 at 1:34 PM on June 27, 2015 [8 favorites]
I may be mistaken, but - with the exception of the imaginary flashback of Will and Hannibal killing Jack, and the final scene with Will, are there any scenes in this episode that aren't one-on-one conversations?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:49 PM on June 27, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:49 PM on June 27, 2015
Ehh, I don't know. He looks redonkulous to us, and Bedelia is certainly suffering from buyer's remorse. They're putting him in outfits that push the envelope even to us, for a reason.
But he even passed the Sogliato test - dude isn't pretending to know Dante, he's for real. Just imagine if any of us had the chance to take up the Hannibal Professorship of Hannibal Studies at the Hannibal Studiolo - it would be tough to choose between us.
And the locals in Italy certainly like his cooking! I really don't think anyone there is any more suspicious than they ought to be.
I think it's Bedelia who is showing him up, actually. Don't forget that Bedelia was Hannibal's style template and he gets a lot of the outward representation of his "refinement" from her. It has to feel pretty bad to him that he's getting all this exasperation and eyerolling from her; I don't suppose he was exactly counting on her falling at his feet, but she's being the exasperated mom to a teenage boy here and his inadequacy, as well as his sense of inadequacy, is really shining through. Even his attempts at "hurr hurr I'm dragging you down to my level!" are falling flat and he knows it.
posted by tel3path at 1:50 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
But he even passed the Sogliato test - dude isn't pretending to know Dante, he's for real. Just imagine if any of us had the chance to take up the Hannibal Professorship of Hannibal Studies at the Hannibal Studiolo - it would be tough to choose between us.
And the locals in Italy certainly like his cooking! I really don't think anyone there is any more suspicious than they ought to be.
I think it's Bedelia who is showing him up, actually. Don't forget that Bedelia was Hannibal's style template and he gets a lot of the outward representation of his "refinement" from her. It has to feel pretty bad to him that he's getting all this exasperation and eyerolling from her; I don't suppose he was exactly counting on her falling at his feet, but she's being the exasperated mom to a teenage boy here and his inadequacy, as well as his sense of inadequacy, is really shining through. Even his attempts at "hurr hurr I'm dragging you down to my level!" are falling flat and he knows it.
posted by tel3path at 1:50 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
showbiz_liz, I think you're right, it's a series of duologues. No third person in any scene.
This is interesting because the first two seasons consisted almost entirely of triangulation, and at the same time, Hannibal was driving wedges between people so that they weren't communicating even when they theoretically had the opportunity to do so.
This time, we have people isolated from each other but - with the exception of Alana - saying exactly what they think. And yet they're converging like never before, as pointed out upthread.
posted by tel3path at 1:52 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
This is interesting because the first two seasons consisted almost entirely of triangulation, and at the same time, Hannibal was driving wedges between people so that they weren't communicating even when they theoretically had the opportunity to do so.
This time, we have people isolated from each other but - with the exception of Alana - saying exactly what they think. And yet they're converging like never before, as pointed out upthread.
posted by tel3path at 1:52 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
There is a very long cultural tradition in U.S. literature and film of juxtaposing American moneyed people with actual European aristocrats, one you can find in everything from Henry James to Vladimir Nabokov. Hell, one of the stock characters in melodrama is the exiled European aristocrat who, despite being penniless and dependent on others, is somehow taken as "classier" than even the rich Americans around him or her. Americans inherit money and property; Europeans inherit actual titles.
You can disagree with the cultural complex, but that is less about Hannibal and Mason (or even Hannibal) and more a disagreement with something much bigger, older, and broader.
posted by kewb at 1:53 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
You can disagree with the cultural complex, but that is less about Hannibal and Mason (or even Hannibal) and more a disagreement with something much bigger, older, and broader.
posted by kewb at 1:53 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Part of the idea is that the European nobility -- even the "fallen" nobility who are broke refuguees -- have a literal, blood tie to the long centuries of history in a way even a Mayflower blueblood cannot. The Vergers might be able to point back 100, perhaps 150 years and tell a story of shrewd investment and industrial success. Perhaps they have bought a few Vermeer paintings via the art market.
If Lecter is a Count as in the source material, he can point back to perhaps 600 or 700 years, with ancestors who led armies into battle and *commissioned* Vermeer paintings.
posted by kewb at 1:59 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
If Lecter is a Count as in the source material, he can point back to perhaps 600 or 700 years, with ancestors who led armies into battle and *commissioned* Vermeer paintings.
posted by kewb at 1:59 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
It's not clear that Hannibal's title still stands. He may very well not be a Count any more in any sense, whether meaningful or meaningless.
posted by tel3path at 2:00 PM on June 27, 2015
posted by tel3path at 2:00 PM on June 27, 2015
But yes, it is kind of hilarious: "Darling, I've actually spoken to a Duchess!" as Nabokov put it.
And now I'm thinking of "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels". Hannibal is Michael Caine, Mason is Steve Martin, Jack is Anton Rodgers' police chief, and Will is Glenn Headly as the American Soap Queen.
posted by tel3path at 2:03 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
And now I'm thinking of "Dirty Rotten Scoundrels". Hannibal is Michael Caine, Mason is Steve Martin, Jack is Anton Rodgers' police chief, and Will is Glenn Headly as the American Soap Queen.
posted by tel3path at 2:03 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Neither would the legal status of some of those exiles have had any "real" meaning., But the cultural complex, the idea that historicity is a genetic inheritance, would still have been taken aboard. Again, much of it has to do with America's trouble distinguishing itself as a settler colony from the Old World, leading to a sort of "inferiority complex."
Again, I disagree with the idea, and I even see why it sounds so stupid in 2015 when America *is* the world power whose culture influences everyone else's, but its lengthy prevalence means that it still turns up from time to time. It is certainly there, probably not entirely consciously, in Harris's novels. And the show's contrasts between Lecter and Mason Verger also seem to be invoking the idea in some sense.
posted by kewb at 2:03 PM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
Again, I disagree with the idea, and I even see why it sounds so stupid in 2015 when America *is* the world power whose culture influences everyone else's, but its lengthy prevalence means that it still turns up from time to time. It is certainly there, probably not entirely consciously, in Harris's novels. And the show's contrasts between Lecter and Mason Verger also seem to be invoking the idea in some sense.
posted by kewb at 2:03 PM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
That's part of why Mason Verger bugs me so much. "oooh he's worse than Hannibal!" No he's not. They're alike.
posted by tel3path at 2:05 PM on June 27, 2015
posted by tel3path at 2:05 PM on June 27, 2015
And Alana played that lady from Oklahoma who got to meet Rupprecht...
posted by tel3path at 2:09 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 2:09 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
That's part of why Mason Verger bugs me so much. "oooh he's worse than Hannibal!" No he's not. They're alike.
I think the show is definitely doing this, not least by making Hannibal the influence behind what were, in the book, totally independent actions on Mason's part. And I agree that it may be dismantling the "Old World/New World" thing, much as it has thankfully remedied the books' rather..let's be charitable and call them " dated" views of sexuality.
But it does still want Mason to be Hannibal's inferior as a schemer and as a threat. It's been shown very clearly how much crappier Mason is at "reading" people and at using them. Mason was pretty much created to be someone so comparatively shitty we'd root for Hannibal over him when given the choice, and to date the show seems broadly in tune with that idea.
posted by kewb at 2:12 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the show is definitely doing this, not least by making Hannibal the influence behind what were, in the book, totally independent actions on Mason's part. And I agree that it may be dismantling the "Old World/New World" thing, much as it has thankfully remedied the books' rather..let's be charitable and call them " dated" views of sexuality.
But it does still want Mason to be Hannibal's inferior as a schemer and as a threat. It's been shown very clearly how much crappier Mason is at "reading" people and at using them. Mason was pretty much created to be someone so comparatively shitty we'd root for Hannibal over him when given the choice, and to date the show seems broadly in tune with that idea.
posted by kewb at 2:12 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I just love how Alana told Mason that Hannibal would go to EUROPE because that's where a man of his TASTES would go.
I mean... Lithuania's a nice place, full of nice people, and an increasingly excellent place to do business. But having a derelict family estate in a bog somewhere in the armpit of one of the still-slightly-less-fashionable Baltic states is maybe not what wide-eyed Americans are imagining it to be.
A ball at Castle Lecter.
posted by tel3path at 2:13 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean... Lithuania's a nice place, full of nice people, and an increasingly excellent place to do business. But having a derelict family estate in a bog somewhere in the armpit of one of the still-slightly-less-fashionable Baltic states is maybe not what wide-eyed Americans are imagining it to be.
A ball at Castle Lecter.
posted by tel3path at 2:13 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
...why isn't the show giving us all the masses of people who must now be rending their garments and going "I can't believe I thought plaid with paisley was cool!" and "The consignment store turned me down for this red windowpane check, told me they're turning them away in droves and sent the backlog they already had to rag-pickers."
If it weren't for Our Lord and Master Himself going around in red windowpane check, I'd think we were being trolled. A ten grand suit, that's commitment to an aesthetic.
posted by tel3path at 2:18 PM on June 27, 2015
If it weren't for Our Lord and Master Himself going around in red windowpane check, I'd think we were being trolled. A ten grand suit, that's commitment to an aesthetic.
posted by tel3path at 2:18 PM on June 27, 2015
Pop culture always lags terribly and embarrassingly on these things. I remember the comic-book story that introduced Nightcrawler in X-Men, which had Professor Xavier going to Germany and rescuing him from a mob of villagers armed with literal torches and pitchforks. The story was written and set in 1975. And let's not get started on how Ireland is often portrayed as if it's still the height of the Troubles.
posted by kewb at 2:19 PM on June 27, 2015
posted by kewb at 2:19 PM on June 27, 2015
...does anyone think Alana has been to EUROPE? I think it's fairly obligatory for American students to do their grand tour there, and all.
But it also crossed my mind before that Alana seems like an ultraWASP exposed to the influence of Hannibal's taste, atom-smash the two together, and you get Alana. I feel like she maybe always wanted to go to EUROPE but I also always got the sense she had never set foot outside the USA.* Odds are she has been to EUROPE at some point but...
*Not that people really need to, the USA is diverse enough and vast enough that calling Americans "parochial" has always been grossly unfair - what does the average Londoner know about what's going down in Hamburg? Nothing
posted by tel3path at 2:21 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
But it also crossed my mind before that Alana seems like an ultraWASP exposed to the influence of Hannibal's taste, atom-smash the two together, and you get Alana. I feel like she maybe always wanted to go to EUROPE but I also always got the sense she had never set foot outside the USA.* Odds are she has been to EUROPE at some point but...
*Not that people really need to, the USA is diverse enough and vast enough that calling Americans "parochial" has always been grossly unfair - what does the average Londoner know about what's going down in Hamburg? Nothing
posted by tel3path at 2:21 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
The entire Metro DC area of Hannibal is a mystical place of perpetually empty roads and brisk travel, a place where you can hop a cab and get from Alexandria to Baltimore in twenty minutes or whatever.
Makes sense. The place is so loaded with serial killers that between their victims and the hordes of people who decided to move somewhere safer, the traffic must be much lighter than in real DC.
Meanwhile, Will Graham, the ultimate American self-made man with 0 family and $0 in his family fortune, makes an excellent living and can build a boat with his hands and build a fire without a lighter and all kinds of stuff like that.
But he can't manage to put up a fucking dog-safety fence to keep his dogs on the property. Just like Alana, Dr. Careful, can't manage to put a goddamn leash on Winston to prevent him from repeatedly running back to Will's house. Since DC Metro area has almost no traffic, I guess they're unlikely to become roadkill, but still, who knows what kind of saber-toothed dysphoric lions and what-have-you are wandering about?
Also, I don't think Hannibal and Mason Verger are the same, at least not in degree. When it comes to physical torture/suffering, Hannibal's comparatively humane; he typically doesn't do the awful stuff to people until they're dead unless he seriously anesthetizes them first, and he mostly kills people pretty quick. Plenty of psychic/emotional torture, though, although he doesn't seem to enjoy it but either do it for the person's own good or accept it as the egg-cracking requisite for omelet preparation. Whereas Mason is just out-and-out sadistic and maliciously cruel to nearly everyone all the time, as much as he can possibly be.
Assuming that I wasn't one of Hannibal's self-actualization projects and hadn't been rude to him but was just collateral damage or clean-up, I'd MUCH rather be killed by Hannibal than by Mason because I have a really low pain threshold.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:30 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Makes sense. The place is so loaded with serial killers that between their victims and the hordes of people who decided to move somewhere safer, the traffic must be much lighter than in real DC.
Meanwhile, Will Graham, the ultimate American self-made man with 0 family and $0 in his family fortune, makes an excellent living and can build a boat with his hands and build a fire without a lighter and all kinds of stuff like that.
But he can't manage to put up a fucking dog-safety fence to keep his dogs on the property. Just like Alana, Dr. Careful, can't manage to put a goddamn leash on Winston to prevent him from repeatedly running back to Will's house. Since DC Metro area has almost no traffic, I guess they're unlikely to become roadkill, but still, who knows what kind of saber-toothed dysphoric lions and what-have-you are wandering about?
Also, I don't think Hannibal and Mason Verger are the same, at least not in degree. When it comes to physical torture/suffering, Hannibal's comparatively humane; he typically doesn't do the awful stuff to people until they're dead unless he seriously anesthetizes them first, and he mostly kills people pretty quick. Plenty of psychic/emotional torture, though, although he doesn't seem to enjoy it but either do it for the person's own good or accept it as the egg-cracking requisite for omelet preparation. Whereas Mason is just out-and-out sadistic and maliciously cruel to nearly everyone all the time, as much as he can possibly be.
Assuming that I wasn't one of Hannibal's self-actualization projects and hadn't been rude to him but was just collateral damage or clean-up, I'd MUCH rather be killed by Hannibal than by Mason because I have a really low pain threshold.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:30 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Alana definitely seems to me like the kind of person who is hopelessly provincial precisely because she is terrified of being thought hopelessly provincial.
posted by kewb at 2:30 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kewb at 2:30 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I think the ostentatiousness is kind of a red herring, honestly; sure, Hannibal wears over-the-top stuff, it's part of his whole Baltimore Gothic thing. His taste may be somewhat vulgar to people with truly great taste, I guess, but it's absolutely not coarse, which is what I think of as "vulgar". Mason is coarse.
To me, the salient difference between Hannibal and Mason isn't taste or money, it's their orientations towards order. Hannibal is orderly and civil to a fault where Mason is transgressive and explicit. Hannibal appears to follow the rules of social order so that he can exploit those rules; Mason flouts the rules to prove that he can.
It's all there in their first interaction, where Mason comes to Hannibal's office and randomly stabs a knife into his perfect gorgeous chair. Mason is rude and disorderly on every level, which drives Hannibal crazy because he's civil and polite (until he's murdering you, anyway). I think part of what makes this an interesting juxtaposition is that if you remove Hannibal's facade, they aren't necessarily that different, which is maybe what some of you were getting at; I mean, ultimately Hannibal sees his victims as pigs too. But the facade is still very important in drawing the narrative contrast between the two characters, and I absolutely agree that we are supposed to sympathize with Hannibal over Mason (and indeed, that this is his most important narrative purpose, at least in the books).
I'm still working out how I feel about Will's admission about wanting to run away with Hannibal. The scene he imagines where he and Hannibal murder Jack was wonderfully powerful (love that Grieg piece) - it did a great job of conveying Will's profound ambivalence and regret and horror. I assume it's only one of a thousand horrible movies playing in his head of how things could have gone differently.
I just can't help but feel terrible for Will at this point, no matter how compromised his character becomes. I feel a lot like I did about Abigail in the first season when Jack &etc were accusing her of helping her father as if she would be morally culpable in the same way that he was - she was an abused captive, not a co-conspirator with agency! I'm sure they'll continue to blur that line as the season goes along (are you observing or participating?), but until I see Will getting appropriate psychological treatment and deprogramming for the sorts of crap that Hannibal planted in his mind, I don't consider him fully responsible for his actions. I feel like the federal agency that put him in that position (it was Jack's fishing expedition) and failed to help him recover from the psychological effects of that ordeal in any meaningful way, at least as far as we've seen yet, is at least as culpable as Will is himself.
Anyway, his motivations are still mostly hidden; the show is doing a great job of emotionally conveying Will's longing for Hannibal, but keeping the logic behind that longing mostly opaque. That's probably a decent representation of how Will feels, too - all these overwhelming feelings that he rationally knows are profoundly wrong, but emotionally somehow make perfect (chilling) sense.
Will is still worth rooting for, I think, it's just important to be specific about what outcome we'd be rooting for. I'm rooting for Will to regain at least some small measure of his sanity, to recover from the incredible psychological damage that was done to him by Hannibal (and by the FBI/Jack, to a lesser extent). I'm rooting for Will to find somebody who actually cares about him as a human being and not just as a tool for catching Hannibal.
Will is so lonely. He was profoundly isolated when the show began and he's orders of magnitude more isolated now. The people he thought were his friends have used him again and again without regard for his safety or well-being, although it's a well-taken point that Hannibal is ultimately behind a lot of those outcomes. He doesn't seem to have any living family at all, he's psychologically battered beyond all recognition, his good name is ruined (conveyed in his conversations with Pazzi - "I was acquitted, keep reading").
Everybody else in the show likes Will to the extent that he is useful to them - Alana, Jack, certainly Chilton, everyone - and Will knows it. Nobody visits or checks up on Will in this episode without a self-interested motive, even Alana (at least IMHO). Will believes that Hannibal is the only one who likes Will for who he is. It's horribly twisted, of course, but for somebody who is so profoundly alone, who feels like his only value to other people derives from his ability to destroy his own mind by empathizing with horrible serial killer monsters, well, I can see why the idea of having a nakama (not to mention a daughter!) who likes him for who he is would be so devastatingly appealing to him.
After all, what's the material difference to him between destroying himself by empathizing with a parade of monsters for the FBI, vs destroying himself empathizing with one particularly charming monster for himself? Hannibal at least pretends to care about him as a person. At least, this is what Hannibal wants him to believe; it's now up to Jack to prove that he cares about Will (as Will did for Jack by attending Bella's funeral) and poke some holes in Hannibal's isolating narrative.
tl;dr: Hannibal's gambit of profoundly isolating Will from his friends by convincing Will that they don't really care about him is effective precisely because they appear to prove it to be true in the events following Mizumono.
posted by dialetheia at 2:31 PM on June 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
To me, the salient difference between Hannibal and Mason isn't taste or money, it's their orientations towards order. Hannibal is orderly and civil to a fault where Mason is transgressive and explicit. Hannibal appears to follow the rules of social order so that he can exploit those rules; Mason flouts the rules to prove that he can.
It's all there in their first interaction, where Mason comes to Hannibal's office and randomly stabs a knife into his perfect gorgeous chair. Mason is rude and disorderly on every level, which drives Hannibal crazy because he's civil and polite (until he's murdering you, anyway). I think part of what makes this an interesting juxtaposition is that if you remove Hannibal's facade, they aren't necessarily that different, which is maybe what some of you were getting at; I mean, ultimately Hannibal sees his victims as pigs too. But the facade is still very important in drawing the narrative contrast between the two characters, and I absolutely agree that we are supposed to sympathize with Hannibal over Mason (and indeed, that this is his most important narrative purpose, at least in the books).
I'm still working out how I feel about Will's admission about wanting to run away with Hannibal. The scene he imagines where he and Hannibal murder Jack was wonderfully powerful (love that Grieg piece) - it did a great job of conveying Will's profound ambivalence and regret and horror. I assume it's only one of a thousand horrible movies playing in his head of how things could have gone differently.
I just can't help but feel terrible for Will at this point, no matter how compromised his character becomes. I feel a lot like I did about Abigail in the first season when Jack &etc were accusing her of helping her father as if she would be morally culpable in the same way that he was - she was an abused captive, not a co-conspirator with agency! I'm sure they'll continue to blur that line as the season goes along (are you observing or participating?), but until I see Will getting appropriate psychological treatment and deprogramming for the sorts of crap that Hannibal planted in his mind, I don't consider him fully responsible for his actions. I feel like the federal agency that put him in that position (it was Jack's fishing expedition) and failed to help him recover from the psychological effects of that ordeal in any meaningful way, at least as far as we've seen yet, is at least as culpable as Will is himself.
Anyway, his motivations are still mostly hidden; the show is doing a great job of emotionally conveying Will's longing for Hannibal, but keeping the logic behind that longing mostly opaque. That's probably a decent representation of how Will feels, too - all these overwhelming feelings that he rationally knows are profoundly wrong, but emotionally somehow make perfect (chilling) sense.
Will is still worth rooting for, I think, it's just important to be specific about what outcome we'd be rooting for. I'm rooting for Will to regain at least some small measure of his sanity, to recover from the incredible psychological damage that was done to him by Hannibal (and by the FBI/Jack, to a lesser extent). I'm rooting for Will to find somebody who actually cares about him as a human being and not just as a tool for catching Hannibal.
Will is so lonely. He was profoundly isolated when the show began and he's orders of magnitude more isolated now. The people he thought were his friends have used him again and again without regard for his safety or well-being, although it's a well-taken point that Hannibal is ultimately behind a lot of those outcomes. He doesn't seem to have any living family at all, he's psychologically battered beyond all recognition, his good name is ruined (conveyed in his conversations with Pazzi - "I was acquitted, keep reading").
Everybody else in the show likes Will to the extent that he is useful to them - Alana, Jack, certainly Chilton, everyone - and Will knows it. Nobody visits or checks up on Will in this episode without a self-interested motive, even Alana (at least IMHO). Will believes that Hannibal is the only one who likes Will for who he is. It's horribly twisted, of course, but for somebody who is so profoundly alone, who feels like his only value to other people derives from his ability to destroy his own mind by empathizing with horrible serial killer monsters, well, I can see why the idea of having a nakama (not to mention a daughter!) who likes him for who he is would be so devastatingly appealing to him.
After all, what's the material difference to him between destroying himself by empathizing with a parade of monsters for the FBI, vs destroying himself empathizing with one particularly charming monster for himself? Hannibal at least pretends to care about him as a person. At least, this is what Hannibal wants him to believe; it's now up to Jack to prove that he cares about Will (as Will did for Jack by attending Bella's funeral) and poke some holes in Hannibal's isolating narrative.
tl;dr: Hannibal's gambit of profoundly isolating Will from his friends by convincing Will that they don't really care about him is effective precisely because they appear to prove it to be true in the events following Mizumono.
posted by dialetheia at 2:31 PM on June 27, 2015 [14 favorites]
dialethia, you are killing it -- in the good way -- in these threads!
posted by kewb at 2:32 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by kewb at 2:32 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
But he can't manage to put up a fucking dog-safety fence to keep his dogs on the property.
He lives surrounded by several huge fields, all of which he owns. His dogs are unlikely to run off his property for that reason.
posted by tel3path at 2:32 PM on June 27, 2015
He lives surrounded by several huge fields, all of which he owns. His dogs are unlikely to run off his property for that reason.
posted by tel3path at 2:32 PM on June 27, 2015
Also - when Alana and Will were walking around looking for injured animals, they were walking through open field. That doesn't seem like the kind of zone where predatory animals are likely to be hiding - though of course, there's birds of prey like eagles and whatnot.
We don't have any dangerous fauna in the UK, so I find these kinds of risks hard to estimate.
posted by tel3path at 2:34 PM on June 27, 2015
We don't have any dangerous fauna in the UK, so I find these kinds of risks hard to estimate.
posted by tel3path at 2:34 PM on June 27, 2015
We don't have any dangerous fauna in the UK, so I find these kinds of risks hard to estimate.
The landscape in the show is not meant literally, anyway. Will's land reflects a kind of vast openness, a natural sublime immune to the depradations of mere humans; he even compared it to the sea in season 1. That's why it is so disturbing when Randall Tier makes it his beast-man hunting grounds and Hannibal takes Mason there and feeds him to Will's dogs. Will is being reminded of the other side of nature, the side that is red in tooth and claw and does not so much overwhelm and enlighten the spirit as to its smallness as remind him that the spirit may be only the illusion of a mass of meat. Wolf Trap, indeed.
posted by kewb at 2:42 PM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
The landscape in the show is not meant literally, anyway. Will's land reflects a kind of vast openness, a natural sublime immune to the depradations of mere humans; he even compared it to the sea in season 1. That's why it is so disturbing when Randall Tier makes it his beast-man hunting grounds and Hannibal takes Mason there and feeds him to Will's dogs. Will is being reminded of the other side of nature, the side that is red in tooth and claw and does not so much overwhelm and enlighten the spirit as to its smallness as remind him that the spirit may be only the illusion of a mass of meat. Wolf Trap, indeed.
posted by kewb at 2:42 PM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Yay dialetheia. I think you put your finger on why I still sympathize with Will despite what he's openly declaring about, oh, I totally wish I'd killed you, Jack, and run off with the guy I was hunting.
I think Jack had no discernible self-interested motive in visiting Will. I actually think he genuinely cared. But his first attempt at apology was only going to alienate Will more - saying "okay, I own the part where I went to the house alone and ahead of time, that's on me" - when the real problem is the entire way he was relating to Will. It must be so utterly offensive and trivializing from Will's point of view to have the earth-scorching of everything that was meaningful to him in his life, reduced to a stakeout gone wrong.
I really think that that conversation made a huge impression on Jack, that he understood what was really wrong after that, because it was after that that Jack was able to give back to Bella what he'd been withholding from her in his endless efforts to get that little bit more life out of her.
We saw Jack change in this episode, from caring about the lives he saves, to caring about life.
posted by tel3path at 2:43 PM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
I think Jack had no discernible self-interested motive in visiting Will. I actually think he genuinely cared. But his first attempt at apology was only going to alienate Will more - saying "okay, I own the part where I went to the house alone and ahead of time, that's on me" - when the real problem is the entire way he was relating to Will. It must be so utterly offensive and trivializing from Will's point of view to have the earth-scorching of everything that was meaningful to him in his life, reduced to a stakeout gone wrong.
I really think that that conversation made a huge impression on Jack, that he understood what was really wrong after that, because it was after that that Jack was able to give back to Bella what he'd been withholding from her in his endless efforts to get that little bit more life out of her.
We saw Jack change in this episode, from caring about the lives he saves, to caring about life.
posted by tel3path at 2:43 PM on June 27, 2015 [4 favorites]
It occurs to me that part of why Will is able to go from thinking of morality to thinking only of "behavior" in S2 is that his experience with encephalitis showed him that maybe there isn't anything else to him. Hannibal is all about telling people that they are just a bunch of sensations, and therefore seeing and creating the most daring, complex, and exotic sensations are the pinnacle of existence.
posted by kewb at 2:45 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by kewb at 2:45 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I also think Will's house is a kind of warning against the dangers of becoming wealthy and isolated, as Will had done by the start of S1. There are Bible verses warning "woe to those who join house to house and field to field" such that they become isolated and physically distant from their neighbours.
Anyway... as much as I didn't want this to be Will's storyline, and having Will being turned into Clannibal was my worst fear... it does at least conform to the reality that you can't pile absolutely unlimited physical, emotional, mental and relational torture on a person and have them come back fighting an unlimited number of times. There is such a thing as a breaking point.
posted by tel3path at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Anyway... as much as I didn't want this to be Will's storyline, and having Will being turned into Clannibal was my worst fear... it does at least conform to the reality that you can't pile absolutely unlimited physical, emotional, mental and relational torture on a person and have them come back fighting an unlimited number of times. There is such a thing as a breaking point.
posted by tel3path at 2:47 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, and you can say that until the end of S2 people were misunderstanding Will because they didn't have the right information. But here it is at the beginning of S3 and Chilton wants to smarm at Will and use him to get famous via the Ripper while distorting the reality of who he is; Alana wants to tell him off for his unhealthy attitude to something or other and talk as if she is the one who knows better; Jack wants to discuss the details of a case.
From Will's point of view, they all should know better now and it looks to him as if they don't. No wonder he tells them all to go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.
posted by tel3path at 2:51 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
From Will's point of view, they all should know better now and it looks to him as if they don't. No wonder he tells them all to go take a flying fuck at a rolling donut.
posted by tel3path at 2:51 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
There is definitely a dearth of good coping strategies on this show. Everyone just heads straight for their comfort zone when anything goes wrong. Will goes for his boats and his fascination with Hannibal, jack to playing like he's a cop even if he isn't one anymore, Alana to playing the wise sane friend. Hannibal runs off to his original hunting grounds. Abigail collapses back into being a murderous father-figure's terrified lure.
People make patterns to make sense of the world and then get stuck in them; no wonder Hannibal is afraid to go back to the family estate where he "happened." And no wonder Will is so broken; he doesn't just get stuck in his own patterns, he also gets dragged into everyone else's unless he actively fights them, every second of every day.
posted by kewb at 2:56 PM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
People make patterns to make sense of the world and then get stuck in them; no wonder Hannibal is afraid to go back to the family estate where he "happened." And no wonder Will is so broken; he doesn't just get stuck in his own patterns, he also gets dragged into everyone else's unless he actively fights them, every second of every day.
posted by kewb at 2:56 PM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
He lives surrounded by several huge fields, all of which he owns. His dogs are unlikely to run off his property for that reason.
His dogs are unlikely to run off his property and dangerous things are unlikely to come onto the property because they're fictional dogs in an unreal location -- although Buster vs. Tier showed a bit more real dog behavior.
The dogs are largely there to add to Will's sympatheticness (aw, he brings home strays, whatta guy!), but it probably mostly only works on non-dog-people.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:59 PM on June 27, 2015
His dogs are unlikely to run off his property and dangerous things are unlikely to come onto the property because they're fictional dogs in an unreal location -- although Buster vs. Tier showed a bit more real dog behavior.
The dogs are largely there to add to Will's sympatheticness (aw, he brings home strays, whatta guy!), but it probably mostly only works on non-dog-people.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:59 PM on June 27, 2015
I mean - a lot of people were up in arms about how Will treated Alana in the scene in Hannibal's kitchen.
But look how she comes in: first says "I thought I'd find you here" - as in "I understand your pathology and it was predictable that you'd be moping in this kitchen. You'd never see me moping in a kitchen. I'm the one who comes to kitchens to find people like you, moping."
And then "After everything Hannibal has done, you still ignore the worst in him?" Not "On some level I think I knew all along, and you tried to warn me so many times, and I ignored you, and I had the worst possible interpretations of everything I saw nibbling at the edges of my consciousness and I ignored all those things because I thought Hannibal was the best thing in my life and I didn't want to lose that. Now I see you here, suffering like this, and even after you've seen everything you're ignoring the worst in Hannibal because we made it look like he was the best choice you have. Will, I hope we can all offer you something better this time around. I was on my way to get a beer, wanna join me?"
But nope, it's "Well here you are moping and you're still hung up on your no-good ex. And not listening to our stellar advice as usual."
Regardless of what was meant, that's what Will was inevitably going to hear so no wonder he tuned it out.
posted by tel3path at 3:01 PM on June 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
But look how she comes in: first says "I thought I'd find you here" - as in "I understand your pathology and it was predictable that you'd be moping in this kitchen. You'd never see me moping in a kitchen. I'm the one who comes to kitchens to find people like you, moping."
And then "After everything Hannibal has done, you still ignore the worst in him?" Not "On some level I think I knew all along, and you tried to warn me so many times, and I ignored you, and I had the worst possible interpretations of everything I saw nibbling at the edges of my consciousness and I ignored all those things because I thought Hannibal was the best thing in my life and I didn't want to lose that. Now I see you here, suffering like this, and even after you've seen everything you're ignoring the worst in Hannibal because we made it look like he was the best choice you have. Will, I hope we can all offer you something better this time around. I was on my way to get a beer, wanna join me?"
But nope, it's "Well here you are moping and you're still hung up on your no-good ex. And not listening to our stellar advice as usual."
Regardless of what was meant, that's what Will was inevitably going to hear so no wonder he tuned it out.
posted by tel3path at 3:01 PM on June 27, 2015 [5 favorites]
I must admit I'm kind of exasperated by reading yet more comments out there about "How could Will be so ----?" Well, how could all the others be so ----? Why does it always have to be on Will every time something goes wrong socially? Why can't the others dredge up a modicum of empathy and see things from Will's point of view, like, ever?
posted by tel3path at 3:12 PM on June 27, 2015
posted by tel3path at 3:12 PM on June 27, 2015
The thing about Europe is that there is an historical depth that doesn't exist in the US. I have only been to Britain once, and only then because work required it; usually it's work that makes it a bad idea to cross the ocean and be out of US cell phone range for more than a few days.
And in the not very illustrious town where I stayed there was a 900 year old castle which was still in use as a prison and courthouse. On a nature walk we encountered Roman baths with signage alerting us that they had been there since 400 AD. We drank in several pubs that had been in continuous business for over 500 years. The US has given the world amazing things, like the transistor and integrated circuit and going to the Moon, but it was Britain where both the steam engine and the computer were invented. America may have built the atomic bomb, but we never would have done it without Fermi who discovered the magic of hydrogen as a neutron moderator on wooden tables in Italy.
I have a feeling Anti-Clarice Alana is about to dualize her role by hooking up with Margot Verger. We never meet Margot's lesbian lover in Hannibal but we are given to know she exists.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:15 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
And in the not very illustrious town where I stayed there was a 900 year old castle which was still in use as a prison and courthouse. On a nature walk we encountered Roman baths with signage alerting us that they had been there since 400 AD. We drank in several pubs that had been in continuous business for over 500 years. The US has given the world amazing things, like the transistor and integrated circuit and going to the Moon, but it was Britain where both the steam engine and the computer were invented. America may have built the atomic bomb, but we never would have done it without Fermi who discovered the magic of hydrogen as a neutron moderator on wooden tables in Italy.
I have a feeling Anti-Clarice Alana is about to dualize her role by hooking up with Margot Verger. We never meet Margot's lesbian lover in Hannibal but we are given to know she exists.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:15 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
The place is so loaded with serial killers that between their victims and the hordes of people who decided to move somewhere safer, the traffic must be much lighter than in real DC.
I have a theory that Hannibal (the show) is actually a sci-fi series about a virus that turns people into artistically-minded serial killers. I mean, there's just so many. Possibly a small percentage of people can get the virus and fight it off to a lesser or greater degree (the Angel Maker may have regained enough temporary self-control to take himself out of the population, for instance; Will's issues in S1 could be the only known case of someone coming down with the virus and recovering). Everybody else just gets it and kills until they get killed. A pretty dire place, for sure, but one where travel would be much more efficient.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:20 PM on June 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
I have a theory that Hannibal (the show) is actually a sci-fi series about a virus that turns people into artistically-minded serial killers. I mean, there's just so many. Possibly a small percentage of people can get the virus and fight it off to a lesser or greater degree (the Angel Maker may have regained enough temporary self-control to take himself out of the population, for instance; Will's issues in S1 could be the only known case of someone coming down with the virus and recovering). Everybody else just gets it and kills until they get killed. A pretty dire place, for sure, but one where travel would be much more efficient.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 3:20 PM on June 27, 2015 [6 favorites]
And yet John Douglas' "Mindhunter" book (Mindhunter! said in manly movie trailer VO tones) makes it clear he could be working on over 100 cases at any one time.
But that was over a wider geographical area of course. Baltimore is totally like Sunnydale in this show.
posted by tel3path at 3:22 PM on June 27, 2015
But that was over a wider geographical area of course. Baltimore is totally like Sunnydale in this show.
posted by tel3path at 3:22 PM on June 27, 2015
But, also, vampire and werewolf stories are basically stories about people like Hannibal and their narcissism and how it at once fools you and awakens the same tendencies in you.
posted by tel3path at 3:23 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 3:23 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Why can't the others dredge up a modicum of empathy and see things from Will's point of view, like, ever?
Both in and out of universe, Will has been cast as The Heroic Protagonist by those who see him from outside, and Protagonists must be adroit, incorruptible, and powerful no matter what. A lot of Jack Crawford's problems are explicitly said to be because he thinks of himself this way, too. It is of course horrible destructive to load this onto people, and the show is telling us that as well.
But part of why people demand an incorruptible, powerful Heroic Protagonist is that we have a Scheming, Powerful Villain. And it's especially hard not to react when the apparent Heroic Protagonist seems to care more about the Villain than anyone else. With great power comes great responsibility and all that, and if you see Will's hyper-empathy as a power, then it's easy to insist that he be more on the hook for using it than the people around him. Again, this is Jack's take on Will.
But it turns out that Will's empathy is not a power, but a vulnerability, and more accurately, part of a person. He just can't get anyone to see him as a person rather than an archetype. Except, sort of, Hannibal, for whom being a person is an amusing hobby.
Part of all of this may be that Will relies on empathetic imagination, but everyone else relies on profiling, forensics, and so forth. They're sort of predisposed to reduce a person to a bare set of traits or a situation to quantifiable data points than to feel with them. The thing that makes Will good at his old job, the thing that makes everyone designate him as Hero Protagonist is exactly the thing that makes him the worst possible candidate for that role.
posted by kewb at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Both in and out of universe, Will has been cast as The Heroic Protagonist by those who see him from outside, and Protagonists must be adroit, incorruptible, and powerful no matter what. A lot of Jack Crawford's problems are explicitly said to be because he thinks of himself this way, too. It is of course horrible destructive to load this onto people, and the show is telling us that as well.
But part of why people demand an incorruptible, powerful Heroic Protagonist is that we have a Scheming, Powerful Villain. And it's especially hard not to react when the apparent Heroic Protagonist seems to care more about the Villain than anyone else. With great power comes great responsibility and all that, and if you see Will's hyper-empathy as a power, then it's easy to insist that he be more on the hook for using it than the people around him. Again, this is Jack's take on Will.
But it turns out that Will's empathy is not a power, but a vulnerability, and more accurately, part of a person. He just can't get anyone to see him as a person rather than an archetype. Except, sort of, Hannibal, for whom being a person is an amusing hobby.
Part of all of this may be that Will relies on empathetic imagination, but everyone else relies on profiling, forensics, and so forth. They're sort of predisposed to reduce a person to a bare set of traits or a situation to quantifiable data points than to feel with them. The thing that makes Will good at his old job, the thing that makes everyone designate him as Hero Protagonist is exactly the thing that makes him the worst possible candidate for that role.
posted by kewb at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'll be interested to see Alana and Margot's relationship develop and I trust Fuller to change things enough because I have a great desire to not see the whole "cattle prod" business. I don't see how it could work anyway, and I think I'd really wonder if Alana could become pregnant - her pelvis was shattered, I would have to think it wouldn't be a great idea for her. And thanks for the reminder about Will also knowing about Mason's horribleness - I'd forgotten some of the initial turns of that plotline.
Wolf Trap is about three miles from the Beltway and is pretty much only an outdoor concert arena. I wish Will's big plots of land were still around there. Will's season one thought about walking out and then looking back to see his house, lit, looking like a ship on the ocean is a nice prefiguring to his ocean crossing.
Alana definitely seems to me like the kind of person who is hopelessly provincial precisely because she is terrified of being thought hopelessly provincial.
*waves*
posted by PussKillian at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Wolf Trap is about three miles from the Beltway and is pretty much only an outdoor concert arena. I wish Will's big plots of land were still around there. Will's season one thought about walking out and then looking back to see his house, lit, looking like a ship on the ocean is a nice prefiguring to his ocean crossing.
Alana definitely seems to me like the kind of person who is hopelessly provincial precisely because she is terrified of being thought hopelessly provincial.
*waves*
posted by PussKillian at 3:31 PM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Why does it always have to be on Will every time something goes wrong socially? Why can't the others dredge up a modicum of empathy and see things from Will's point of view, like, ever?
That's really par for the course if Will is a tad neuro-diverse because the normals define all the expectations and behavioral conventions and what's acceptable, so when differing interaction styles collide, it's always going to be the outlier who's labeled the weirdo or asshole or insensitive or inherently unlikable. Hence Will's loneliness and part of what he and Hannibal see and value in each other. It's tiring to always have to try to be (or appear to be) "like everybody else" and care about the stuff they care about and do things the way the majority does when it's alien to your nature, and it's annoying how they feel zero need to make the same, or any, effort and 100% entitlement to roll their eyes and sigh in bored pouty impatience the second you bring up anything you like or do things the way you do them.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's really par for the course if Will is a tad neuro-diverse because the normals define all the expectations and behavioral conventions and what's acceptable, so when differing interaction styles collide, it's always going to be the outlier who's labeled the weirdo or asshole or insensitive or inherently unlikable. Hence Will's loneliness and part of what he and Hannibal see and value in each other. It's tiring to always have to try to be (or appear to be) "like everybody else" and care about the stuff they care about and do things the way the majority does when it's alien to your nature, and it's annoying how they feel zero need to make the same, or any, effort and 100% entitlement to roll their eyes and sigh in bored pouty impatience the second you bring up anything you like or do things the way you do them.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
she was an abused captive, not a co-conspirator with agency
And Will is imagining Abigail as a co-conspirator with agency because he was regarding himself as a co-conspirator with agency, when he was essentially an abused captive from the moment he walked into Hannibal's office.
For someone to fight as hard as Will did, and to fail so completely, and to fail at his primary mission (protect the innocent/Abigail) a SECOND time - he was doing all the things, and all the things failed.
Wow, he must be thinking, for a co-conspirator with agency, I really do suck, don't I? Time to accept my weakness and long for Hannibal's power. And of course he imagines Abigail doing the same thing and reproaching him for not doing a better job, because obviously the reason this didn't turn out differently is because of the one thing he didn't do. Therefore Abigail (the entire purpose of Will's entire life mission) morphs into someone different, because she has to be someone different in order to be capable of accusing him in this way.
posted by tel3path at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2015
And Will is imagining Abigail as a co-conspirator with agency because he was regarding himself as a co-conspirator with agency, when he was essentially an abused captive from the moment he walked into Hannibal's office.
For someone to fight as hard as Will did, and to fail so completely, and to fail at his primary mission (protect the innocent/Abigail) a SECOND time - he was doing all the things, and all the things failed.
Wow, he must be thinking, for a co-conspirator with agency, I really do suck, don't I? Time to accept my weakness and long for Hannibal's power. And of course he imagines Abigail doing the same thing and reproaching him for not doing a better job, because obviously the reason this didn't turn out differently is because of the one thing he didn't do. Therefore Abigail (the entire purpose of Will's entire life mission) morphs into someone different, because she has to be someone different in order to be capable of accusing him in this way.
posted by tel3path at 3:34 PM on June 27, 2015
it's always going to be the outlier who's labeled the weirdo or asshole or insensitive or inherently unlikable
In a bookstore once, I picked up a self-help book for parents of Aspies. In it I read that, every time an Aspie complains of being verbally abused, they're wrong. It's always the Aspie who's dishing out the abuse, never receiving it. Aspies of course have a distorted view of how these interactions go because of our inherent lack of empathy, but we're definitely always wrong.
I had to huff out four deep breaths and walk a few times around that set of shelves before I calmed down. I was thinking of writing a letter of complaint, but to what end? "Dear Publishers, the idea that Aspies are never on the receiving end of verbal abuse seems illogical on its face. What is more likely - that Aspies are the one and only demographic in society that never ever receive verbal abuse in any situation? Or that Aspies are sometimes on the receiving end of verbal abuse just as everyone else is?"
Well that's a typically Aspie and insensitive way for me to look at it, of course and argh I can't even be bothered finishing this sentence. The point, of course, isn't that as an Aspie I need to break that down logically in typical Aspie fashion while missing the point, which is that Aspies are weird and annoying and thereforeaaaaaaaargh HULK SMASH
Let's set up a Kickstarter campaign to buy the other characters their own empathy.
posted by tel3path at 3:44 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
In a bookstore once, I picked up a self-help book for parents of Aspies. In it I read that, every time an Aspie complains of being verbally abused, they're wrong. It's always the Aspie who's dishing out the abuse, never receiving it. Aspies of course have a distorted view of how these interactions go because of our inherent lack of empathy, but we're definitely always wrong.
I had to huff out four deep breaths and walk a few times around that set of shelves before I calmed down. I was thinking of writing a letter of complaint, but to what end? "Dear Publishers, the idea that Aspies are never on the receiving end of verbal abuse seems illogical on its face. What is more likely - that Aspies are the one and only demographic in society that never ever receive verbal abuse in any situation? Or that Aspies are sometimes on the receiving end of verbal abuse just as everyone else is?"
Well that's a typically Aspie and insensitive way for me to look at it, of course and argh I can't even be bothered finishing this sentence. The point, of course, isn't that as an Aspie I need to break that down logically in typical Aspie fashion while missing the point, which is that Aspies are weird and annoying and thereforeaaaaaaaargh HULK SMASH
Let's set up a Kickstarter campaign to buy the other characters their own empathy.
posted by tel3path at 3:44 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
It's unlikely, maybe, considering her track record with Will and how she sees herself. But I think Margot is genuinely not proud of treating Will the way she did. So if Alana is just using Will or, worse, out to get him, I can see Margot being the one person who stands up for Will. I could imagine her confronting Alana and saying "wait a minute - don't you think he has any feelings?" Hopefully with at least some conviction and not just murmuring a protest and then letting it go. If Alana is alive in there, hopefully that would also get through to her.
Because right now Alana is acting very hard and also acting like she is the one who sent Will out on a mission to capture Hannibal. If she thinks it was her idea or that Will is going to be compliant ("Will knows what he has to do") then I think Will might have wrapped her around his little finger rather than vice versa. This is exactly like sending a shell shocked soldier back into battle. Never mind that Will was determined to go regardless of what anyone else thought, and it's probably unrealistic to try to stop him, Alana really appears to be endorsing it WHILE knowing it's going to destroy him.
Anyone on this show could have a Cunning Plan, so I hope Alana does. We now can't tell the difference between Alana playing a role and Alana as herself.
posted by tel3path at 3:52 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Because right now Alana is acting very hard and also acting like she is the one who sent Will out on a mission to capture Hannibal. If she thinks it was her idea or that Will is going to be compliant ("Will knows what he has to do") then I think Will might have wrapped her around his little finger rather than vice versa. This is exactly like sending a shell shocked soldier back into battle. Never mind that Will was determined to go regardless of what anyone else thought, and it's probably unrealistic to try to stop him, Alana really appears to be endorsing it WHILE knowing it's going to destroy him.
Anyone on this show could have a Cunning Plan, so I hope Alana does. We now can't tell the difference between Alana playing a role and Alana as herself.
posted by tel3path at 3:52 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
That book sounds like horrible, damaging rubbish.
posted by kewb at 3:56 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by kewb at 3:56 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
It really is; but the fact that anyone felt it was acceptable to express that opinion in print kind of explains why Will is now in the position he is.
At least Hannibal thought about things from Will's point of view, even if it was for entirely the wrong reasons.
posted by tel3path at 3:59 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
At least Hannibal thought about things from Will's point of view, even if it was for entirely the wrong reasons.
posted by tel3path at 3:59 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm pondering Alana saying the marrow in her bone would make her "think differently".
What has changed? Because I'm wondering if that is actually something Alana is telling herself rather than something that's legitimately true.
I'm remembering in Tome-Wan, the cold confidence with which Will told Jack that Hannibal will try to kill Mason, and I'll stop him and arrest him, easy-peasy. Of course, the situation got out of Will's control so fast it's not even funny. It was so obvious to me that Will was taking refuge in Hannibal's mindset - he was even talking about the admirable qualities Hannibal had "in moderation" because it was the only safe place for him to be; believing he could exercise that level of control, and believing he could do it without feeling a thing. But if Will didn't convince himself of that, the alternative was facing the reality that he was losing and the collateral damage was getting worse every day.
Now we have Alana posing as the baddest bitch in Baltimore. She, too, is talking like nothing hurts her emotionally, like she's in control of every interaction and expects to twist everyone she meets around her little finger. The way she talks about her relationship with Hannibal is as if she's already worked through it - "I amused him" and that it's impossible to know what he really felt beyond that - I would expect Alana to be wobbly and obsessive about that for a good couple of YEARS afterwards, not to have reached a point of steely intellectual acceptance in a matter of months. And I would expect some kind of revealing glitch about that in what she said to Mason, even while keeping the facade up, but nope. So did the marrow in her blood give her the superpower of not giving a fuck in the manner of a normal human, or is she lying to herself to some extent?
Because I really think that Will's emotional reaction, as much as we might deplore it and go "nooooo", is 300% understandable; everyone reacts somewhat like that to abusive relationships. His ambivalence is a lot more believable, and as usual he's the one openly acknowledging that in a way that makes him look like the more messed-up one.
And on that note, in rolls Alana, literally looks down on Will from a higher vantage point, and tells him how he's been wrong in his thinking. Again, this looks caring but is less than no help at all, as well as being exactly the most insensitive thing Alana could have said in the circumstances. It seems, as pointed out upthread, more like a way for Alana to be in her comfort zone than any real attempt at making a connection.
So I'm not at all sure that Alana is the one being "sane" in this scene as I've seen a number of remarks around the webs; let alone that she's being "caring". Whatever her intentions are, I feel like one of the conditions of the rebooted Alana should be that the results are what matter now; she can't take credit any more for saying "caring" things that are actually hurtful and insensitive. One would hope that she would be beginning to learn ways of avoiding dishing out toxic help from now on, but there's no sign of that.
I'm wondering: if Alana is going to become the Ultimate Manipulator this season, how will her evident lack of empathy factor into that? If she's just unwilling to see things from others' point of view, presumably she'll be able to turn it off and on and will therefore have a good chance of bending others to her will. But if she's incapable of seeing things from others' point of view, then all signs are that this hasn't improved, and that is a permanent impairment that will put her in danger as she continues to fail to anticipate certain things. For example, throughout S1 and S2 she consistently failed to anticipate that others wouldn't comply with her directives because these things were matters of life and death for those others. Abigail was desperate to gain her freedom and independence; Alana told her to stay in the asylum; but because Abigail was truly desperate, and also truly hurting for the loss of her father, she connected with Hannibal and wound up doing things like sneaking out of her locked ward during the night. Will was desperate to get his truth across, and wouldn't comply with Alana's directive to confess to five murders so he could get out. Finally, she literally told Hannibal to his face that she was carrying the gun she would later try to shoot him with, and she was totally unprepared for the reality that Hannibal was not just going to stand there and let her do it.
This time, we have Will clearly operating under his own initiative and determination to find Hannibal, and we have Alana emerging from his house and talking to Jack as if she's the one in charge of this whole operation. She surely must anticipate - simply because of what she's observed firsthand as well as discussing with Chilton - that Will is going to have his own ideas about how he carries out this mission. Presumably this time Alana thinks she has plans in place to handle that.
But I'm wondering if she's bitten off more than she can chew. Like the whole I'm A Master Manipulator Now thing isn't just as much self-delusion as before (though she is in red all the time so maybe not). That could be why she's painted herself up so much to look so artificial - as if she's making herself up backwards as a vampire femme fatale to compensate for a lack of inner conviction.
I see no indication, also, that Alana is getting any therapy for her own trauma. She is the new psychiatrist, again. She doesn't have a psychiatrist. She is presenting as the one who has the answers, not as someone seeking answers.
IDK, maybe we can take Alana at face value. Maybe she is just a person with a simple mentality and I'm overthinking her. Time will tell, I guess.
posted by tel3path at 5:15 PM on June 27, 2015
What has changed? Because I'm wondering if that is actually something Alana is telling herself rather than something that's legitimately true.
I'm remembering in Tome-Wan, the cold confidence with which Will told Jack that Hannibal will try to kill Mason, and I'll stop him and arrest him, easy-peasy. Of course, the situation got out of Will's control so fast it's not even funny. It was so obvious to me that Will was taking refuge in Hannibal's mindset - he was even talking about the admirable qualities Hannibal had "in moderation" because it was the only safe place for him to be; believing he could exercise that level of control, and believing he could do it without feeling a thing. But if Will didn't convince himself of that, the alternative was facing the reality that he was losing and the collateral damage was getting worse every day.
Now we have Alana posing as the baddest bitch in Baltimore. She, too, is talking like nothing hurts her emotionally, like she's in control of every interaction and expects to twist everyone she meets around her little finger. The way she talks about her relationship with Hannibal is as if she's already worked through it - "I amused him" and that it's impossible to know what he really felt beyond that - I would expect Alana to be wobbly and obsessive about that for a good couple of YEARS afterwards, not to have reached a point of steely intellectual acceptance in a matter of months. And I would expect some kind of revealing glitch about that in what she said to Mason, even while keeping the facade up, but nope. So did the marrow in her blood give her the superpower of not giving a fuck in the manner of a normal human, or is she lying to herself to some extent?
Because I really think that Will's emotional reaction, as much as we might deplore it and go "nooooo", is 300% understandable; everyone reacts somewhat like that to abusive relationships. His ambivalence is a lot more believable, and as usual he's the one openly acknowledging that in a way that makes him look like the more messed-up one.
And on that note, in rolls Alana, literally looks down on Will from a higher vantage point, and tells him how he's been wrong in his thinking. Again, this looks caring but is less than no help at all, as well as being exactly the most insensitive thing Alana could have said in the circumstances. It seems, as pointed out upthread, more like a way for Alana to be in her comfort zone than any real attempt at making a connection.
So I'm not at all sure that Alana is the one being "sane" in this scene as I've seen a number of remarks around the webs; let alone that she's being "caring". Whatever her intentions are, I feel like one of the conditions of the rebooted Alana should be that the results are what matter now; she can't take credit any more for saying "caring" things that are actually hurtful and insensitive. One would hope that she would be beginning to learn ways of avoiding dishing out toxic help from now on, but there's no sign of that.
I'm wondering: if Alana is going to become the Ultimate Manipulator this season, how will her evident lack of empathy factor into that? If she's just unwilling to see things from others' point of view, presumably she'll be able to turn it off and on and will therefore have a good chance of bending others to her will. But if she's incapable of seeing things from others' point of view, then all signs are that this hasn't improved, and that is a permanent impairment that will put her in danger as she continues to fail to anticipate certain things. For example, throughout S1 and S2 she consistently failed to anticipate that others wouldn't comply with her directives because these things were matters of life and death for those others. Abigail was desperate to gain her freedom and independence; Alana told her to stay in the asylum; but because Abigail was truly desperate, and also truly hurting for the loss of her father, she connected with Hannibal and wound up doing things like sneaking out of her locked ward during the night. Will was desperate to get his truth across, and wouldn't comply with Alana's directive to confess to five murders so he could get out. Finally, she literally told Hannibal to his face that she was carrying the gun she would later try to shoot him with, and she was totally unprepared for the reality that Hannibal was not just going to stand there and let her do it.
This time, we have Will clearly operating under his own initiative and determination to find Hannibal, and we have Alana emerging from his house and talking to Jack as if she's the one in charge of this whole operation. She surely must anticipate - simply because of what she's observed firsthand as well as discussing with Chilton - that Will is going to have his own ideas about how he carries out this mission. Presumably this time Alana thinks she has plans in place to handle that.
But I'm wondering if she's bitten off more than she can chew. Like the whole I'm A Master Manipulator Now thing isn't just as much self-delusion as before (though she is in red all the time so maybe not). That could be why she's painted herself up so much to look so artificial - as if she's making herself up backwards as a vampire femme fatale to compensate for a lack of inner conviction.
I see no indication, also, that Alana is getting any therapy for her own trauma. She is the new psychiatrist, again. She doesn't have a psychiatrist. She is presenting as the one who has the answers, not as someone seeking answers.
IDK, maybe we can take Alana at face value. Maybe she is just a person with a simple mentality and I'm overthinking her. Time will tell, I guess.
posted by tel3path at 5:15 PM on June 27, 2015
OH ALSO: just as Will began to change faces when he was behind bars, the spikes that are holding Alana's pelvis together are doing the same thing.
Now it's Alana who is physically restrained in a bare empty space and unable to get away. It's Alana who's having people come up to her and jeer at her and accuse her and all she can do is take it (maybe the only person who's done so is Chilton, but Alana will not be used to this sort of thing so one will be enough).
So it takes her a moment or two to create the character but there's a distinct transition when she changes into someone who can throw sass back at Chilton and "not feel a thing".
posted by tel3path at 6:07 PM on June 27, 2015
Now it's Alana who is physically restrained in a bare empty space and unable to get away. It's Alana who's having people come up to her and jeer at her and accuse her and all she can do is take it (maybe the only person who's done so is Chilton, but Alana will not be used to this sort of thing so one will be enough).
So it takes her a moment or two to create the character but there's a distinct transition when she changes into someone who can throw sass back at Chilton and "not feel a thing".
posted by tel3path at 6:07 PM on June 27, 2015
And... yeah, I think Alana has always desperately needed a strong person to be in charge. Someone who is completely in control and never doubts.
She goes into Hannibal's kitchen and finds Will of no use to her there. So she's satisfied when she gets from there to seeing Will off on his mission to Get Hannibal, and takes comfort from the idea that he "knows what he has to do" and she's the one sending him on his way.
Because everyone else has abdicated, Alana has to become the one who's In Charge and In Control and a Master Manipulator Who Gives Zero Fucks.
Because if she doesn't take that on, Chilton will continue to hold the crown, and NO WAY Alana is going to allow him that.
posted by tel3path at 6:16 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
She goes into Hannibal's kitchen and finds Will of no use to her there. So she's satisfied when she gets from there to seeing Will off on his mission to Get Hannibal, and takes comfort from the idea that he "knows what he has to do" and she's the one sending him on his way.
Because everyone else has abdicated, Alana has to become the one who's In Charge and In Control and a Master Manipulator Who Gives Zero Fucks.
Because if she doesn't take that on, Chilton will continue to hold the crown, and NO WAY Alana is going to allow him that.
posted by tel3path at 6:16 PM on June 27, 2015 [1 favorite]
Oh yes, I think a whole lot of Alana's judginess and tsk-tsking at Will (and to a lesser extent Jack) about their "misguidedness" and how dare Will be able to see the good in Hannibal and take his side, etc., is plain old coping mechanism projection or a way of having the inevitable embarrassing "Jesus what a fucking gullible dimwit I was" conversation with herself without, for now, really having it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:24 PM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:24 PM on June 27, 2015 [3 favorites]
Well, this page describes "disorientation, confusion, seizures, stupor or coma" as the acute effects of the condition and "... Neurological deficit and coma may last for days or weeks. Residual deficits may include personality changes, memory loss and cognitive dysfunction ..." as long term effects.
So the question is, are we seeing a personality change or is does Alana post-defenestration suffer from some sort of cognitive deficit that is undetectable unless you know what "soft signs" to look out for. I'm thinking that Fuller was going for the former when he and the writers blocked this out in their brainstorming sessions. S1 &S2 Alana would be shattered, wounded and poisoned after the last season's finale. This season's Alana is no longer that woman. She is literally a different person.
She still has a relationship with Will although it might be more of a relationship with the man's dogs instead if the man. Does she care about him? Sure , the way one soldier cares about another member of their unit. The romance, however, is dead. In Alana's case it seems, ALL romance is dead. There is no love, only war and every man she once knew is either a member of her unit or cannon fodder in the war to take down the big bad.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:09 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
So the question is, are we seeing a personality change or is does Alana post-defenestration suffer from some sort of cognitive deficit that is undetectable unless you know what "soft signs" to look out for. I'm thinking that Fuller was going for the former when he and the writers blocked this out in their brainstorming sessions. S1 &S2 Alana would be shattered, wounded and poisoned after the last season's finale. This season's Alana is no longer that woman. She is literally a different person.
She still has a relationship with Will although it might be more of a relationship with the man's dogs instead if the man. Does she care about him? Sure , the way one soldier cares about another member of their unit. The romance, however, is dead. In Alana's case it seems, ALL romance is dead. There is no love, only war and every man she once knew is either a member of her unit or cannon fodder in the war to take down the big bad.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:09 PM on June 27, 2015 [2 favorites]
Hmm, once again (in some ways) Alana gets to avoid the tough stuff, emotionally, and gets to go straight to being the baddest bitch in Baltimore. We all wish we could be like that after a trauma, and apparently poor Alana got her wish.
Still, somebody has to sort Hannibal out so it might as well be Alana.
posted by tel3path at 2:44 AM on June 28, 2015
Still, somebody has to sort Hannibal out so it might as well be Alana.
posted by tel3path at 2:44 AM on June 28, 2015
so Alana is now Jack, Jack is now Alana and Will is also now Alana.
dear me. that woman gets everywhere!
posted by tel3path at 2:45 AM on June 28, 2015
dear me. that woman gets everywhere!
posted by tel3path at 2:45 AM on June 28, 2015
overall, seems like Alana's doing a lot of the same things she used to do - but she used to do them in a nice way, and now she doesn't.
watching Mason choke while doing nothing and eventually asking if he needs a nurse? same as commenting that Will perhaps ought to take some aspirin.
singleminded focus on Hannibal, subordinating everything to the Hannibal-related mission? check
telling Will he's wrong about Hannibal? Check
Having a snark-off with Chilton? Check
Securing the patronage of a wealthy male? Check
Taking care of Will's dogs so he'll treat her as an ally in the Hannibal-related mission? Check
the ONE difference is that she took time out from her mission to help Jack prepare Bella for the funeral. that seems like a gesture that can't benefit her mission in any way and seems to have no motivation other than kindness for kindness' sake.
posted by tel3path at 4:17 AM on June 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
watching Mason choke while doing nothing and eventually asking if he needs a nurse? same as commenting that Will perhaps ought to take some aspirin.
singleminded focus on Hannibal, subordinating everything to the Hannibal-related mission? check
telling Will he's wrong about Hannibal? Check
Having a snark-off with Chilton? Check
Securing the patronage of a wealthy male? Check
Taking care of Will's dogs so he'll treat her as an ally in the Hannibal-related mission? Check
the ONE difference is that she took time out from her mission to help Jack prepare Bella for the funeral. that seems like a gesture that can't benefit her mission in any way and seems to have no motivation other than kindness for kindness' sake.
posted by tel3path at 4:17 AM on June 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
You know... I don't know if they've delivered on their promise to make Alana the "most interesting".
By giving her this subclinical brain damage, they've allowed her to leapfrog over all the emotional conflict she would have gone through and remain black and white about everything. Previously Alana didn't know, now Alana doesn't care.
Of course with three characters wangsting or losing interest in their jobs there wouldn't be anyone left to Get Hannibal, so Alana has been given this job.
I feel like it's less about character development than a way of earning back approval from the fans. I mean, Alana is doing what we want her to do, and being a Strong Woman about it. Now we'll stop complaining, eh?
And just for all that whingeing about bierasure last season, oh, tee hee look at all that tension and double entendre-ing with Margot!
I mean there were a lot of complaints last season about Alana just doing what the plot required her to do rather than being character-driven, but it seems - so far - that she's more plot-driven this season. If the personality change is physiological, rather than psychological; if Alana isn't going to get whiplash later on, and is still going around telling people they're wrong and playing the role of the Sanest Person On The Show because she truly believes that's what she is...
OTOH, she does drive a tank and wear red lipstick and she is vengeful and obviously kickass, so she definitely ticks the right boxes and quite a few people who previously were complaining are now pleased, because she's Doing Things and Making Choices (ignoring all the things she did and the choices she made last season because we don't like them).
I wonder how her character is going to develop as all this unfolds. I hope she doesn't turn into a wasted opportunity.
posted by tel3path at 1:40 PM on June 28, 2015
By giving her this subclinical brain damage, they've allowed her to leapfrog over all the emotional conflict she would have gone through and remain black and white about everything. Previously Alana didn't know, now Alana doesn't care.
Of course with three characters wangsting or losing interest in their jobs there wouldn't be anyone left to Get Hannibal, so Alana has been given this job.
I feel like it's less about character development than a way of earning back approval from the fans. I mean, Alana is doing what we want her to do, and being a Strong Woman about it. Now we'll stop complaining, eh?
And just for all that whingeing about bierasure last season, oh, tee hee look at all that tension and double entendre-ing with Margot!
I mean there were a lot of complaints last season about Alana just doing what the plot required her to do rather than being character-driven, but it seems - so far - that she's more plot-driven this season. If the personality change is physiological, rather than psychological; if Alana isn't going to get whiplash later on, and is still going around telling people they're wrong and playing the role of the Sanest Person On The Show because she truly believes that's what she is...
OTOH, she does drive a tank and wear red lipstick and she is vengeful and obviously kickass, so she definitely ticks the right boxes and quite a few people who previously were complaining are now pleased, because she's Doing Things and Making Choices (ignoring all the things she did and the choices she made last season because we don't like them).
I wonder how her character is going to develop as all this unfolds. I hope she doesn't turn into a wasted opportunity.
posted by tel3path at 1:40 PM on June 28, 2015
...I just feel like, so far, it's like the writers have said, oh, you want Alana to be a Strong Female Character? Here, have this cardboard cutout. All the qualities you loved in the old Alana, with none of the faults! Look, See Alana reacting to trauma the way a normal person erroneously thinks they would react!
But it all boils down to "somebody has to do it", so hey.
posted by tel3path at 1:43 PM on June 28, 2015
But it all boils down to "somebody has to do it", so hey.
posted by tel3path at 1:43 PM on June 28, 2015
I think it's just way way too early to know. I mean, we first see Alana talking to Chilton about whether they should still involve themselves with Hannibal and Will, and it ends on her line "that would require some manipulation." And then we see her visiting Mason and making herself out to be this stone cold revenge goddess. I can't not take that as her manipulating Mason. So I don't think we yet have enough evidence to say she's been shortchanged in the character development department.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:45 PM on June 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:45 PM on June 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
Yeah. I don't want to jump the gun here. We don't know what she's really intending.
That is some fucking tank she's driving though. Isn't it harder to get in and out of one of those things with impaired mobility?
posted by tel3path at 1:47 PM on June 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
That is some fucking tank she's driving though. Isn't it harder to get in and out of one of those things with impaired mobility?
posted by tel3path at 1:47 PM on June 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yeah, it's too early to know where Alana is going. Most of the characters' motivations are obscured right now - and with Alana, we have no idea what she's thinking and maybe she doesn't either. Or, at least, there's no way of knowing if it's because she was defenestrated or if it's because there's marrow in her blood. That's actually a really interesting place for her character to be. Whether or not this is a course correction after the character lost focus/agency last season, it's hard to know. They are obviously trying something new with her and for now, it's an interesting direction for her to go. (I think it was earlier in this thread where someone suggested the marrow in the blood might just be an excuse - she's telling herself her thinking has changed because of that, but she's really just super revenge-y because of everything that happened in the season two finale.)
posted by crossoverman at 3:01 PM on June 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by crossoverman at 3:01 PM on June 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
She may be telling people about the marrow in her blood because she wants to advertise that she's a completely different person - one they should start fearing for the right reasons.
See, it was always Alana's position that if you're subjected to an outside influence it diminishes your responsibility for your actions. If this Alana is literally a different person from the previous Alana, then accusations will just glance off her because they're accusations levelled at a person who no longer exists.
posted by tel3path at 3:30 PM on June 28, 2015
See, it was always Alana's position that if you're subjected to an outside influence it diminishes your responsibility for your actions. If this Alana is literally a different person from the previous Alana, then accusations will just glance off her because they're accusations levelled at a person who no longer exists.
posted by tel3path at 3:30 PM on June 28, 2015
Yeah like "I have marrow in my blood, that explains why I'm acting and dressing totally differently." She needs a nice cover story or outside influence to excuse her changes.
I mean I totally predict she and Margit are going to Scheme, but while Margot might be down with taking down Mason, she might not be as keen to do so to Hannibal.
also, by pure chance I watched Bound this weekend (Another DDL company production!) and was struck by some of the lighting and framing similarities -- the last shot of the blood mixing with the white paint could've come straight out of this show -- didn't Fueller name check the movie when talking about Alana and Margot this season?
posted by The Whelk at 3:36 PM on June 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
I mean I totally predict she and Margit are going to Scheme, but while Margot might be down with taking down Mason, she might not be as keen to do so to Hannibal.
also, by pure chance I watched Bound this weekend (Another DDL company production!) and was struck by some of the lighting and framing similarities -- the last shot of the blood mixing with the white paint could've come straight out of this show -- didn't Fueller name check the movie when talking about Alana and Margot this season?
posted by The Whelk at 3:36 PM on June 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Isn't it harder to get in and out of one of those things with impaired mobility?
yeah but I think that if I was dating someone I'd known and trusted for years and they turned out to be a fucking cannibal who framed one of my best friends for 5 cannibalistic murders and then had one of the alleged murder victims shove me out a second story window I too would want a large vehicle capable of crushing any number of potential foes beneath its massive tire treads.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:18 PM on June 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
yeah but I think that if I was dating someone I'd known and trusted for years and they turned out to be a fucking cannibal who framed one of my best friends for 5 cannibalistic murders and then had one of the alleged murder victims shove me out a second story window I too would want a large vehicle capable of crushing any number of potential foes beneath its massive tire treads.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:18 PM on June 28, 2015 [9 favorites]
You know how in the dream sequence Will splits in two leaving his id to kill Jack?
I think Alana split in two and is not afraid any more - or is telling herself she isn't, the fact that she's driving a tank kinda suggests she is a bit afraid tho
posted by tel3path at 4:27 PM on June 28, 2015
I think Alana split in two and is not afraid any more - or is telling herself she isn't, the fact that she's driving a tank kinda suggests she is a bit afraid tho
posted by tel3path at 4:27 PM on June 28, 2015
and i would definitely get a sword cane.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:27 PM on June 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by poffin boffin at 4:27 PM on June 28, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hiw can Jack talk about it like it was just another case though. what personal detachment.
posted by tel3path at 4:28 PM on June 28, 2015
posted by tel3path at 4:28 PM on June 28, 2015
yeah! and I want a real Italian poison ring too. slip sweet 'n' low in Hannibal's coffee
posted by tel3path at 4:29 PM on June 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 4:29 PM on June 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
He's too clever to let anyone else handle his food, it would have to be a ricin umbrella poke on the street.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:31 PM on June 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 4:31 PM on June 28, 2015 [4 favorites]
So today my thesis advisor posted an article that had been written about him and his current battle with ALS and combined with some of this discussion it's had me thinking about mentorship and influence and things like that. I love this man to pieces and I didn't even go on to be an academic and thus left his orbit a little bit. But he had so much influence on me, on how I think, he's shaded how I perceive the world. And imagining someone in that position but even closer to me, someone who I had maybe looked up to and then worked hard and finally stood side by side with, no longer a student but a peer, and how deep that relationship would go, and then having it all end in the most perverse way possible...
And I think about The Secret History, too, where another Bad Mentor's actions cause murder. And Pamela Dean's Tam Lin.
And I guess all I'm thinking is that I hope Alana's responses to all the revelations aren't completely submerged, no matter how on point her lipstick is. But I don't know if there's really going to be time to spend on them.
posted by PussKillian at 7:32 PM on June 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I think about The Secret History, too, where another Bad Mentor's actions cause murder. And Pamela Dean's Tam Lin.
And I guess all I'm thinking is that I hope Alana's responses to all the revelations aren't completely submerged, no matter how on point her lipstick is. But I don't know if there's really going to be time to spend on them.
posted by PussKillian at 7:32 PM on June 28, 2015 [2 favorites]
And I guess all I'm thinking is that I hope Alana's responses to all the revelations aren't completely submerged, no matter how on point her lipstick is. But I don't know if there's really going to be time to spend on them.
She's always been a tightly wound control freak, though she pulled it off in such a caring and adorable way that it wasn't off-putting. So it actually makes sense to me that she would process this by repressing the shit out of it. But that can't last forever.
I'd love to see how she reacts once Hannibal is in prison - until that happens, she can justify any repression as just buckling down and getting the job of catching him done. But afterwards she won't be able to do that.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:38 PM on June 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
She's always been a tightly wound control freak, though she pulled it off in such a caring and adorable way that it wasn't off-putting. So it actually makes sense to me that she would process this by repressing the shit out of it. But that can't last forever.
I'd love to see how she reacts once Hannibal is in prison - until that happens, she can justify any repression as just buckling down and getting the job of catching him done. But afterwards she won't be able to do that.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:38 PM on June 28, 2015 [3 favorites]
And yet the implication is that it's not repression, that she's become someone who no longer has that kind of emotional response.
Or that she's been poisoned to the extent of becoming more like Hannibal: singleminded and many-faced.
And some of her fans are going "yay! see Alana be sane and normal amidst the chaos!" people really don't get it.
We don't question Chilton though, because Chilton is shallow. Maybe Alana is just not that deep either, in which case having her fear physically removed would work just fine for her.
I mean we all wish we could become a supervillain on demand, maybe Alana's fans want that for her too and are getting their wish.
posted by tel3path at 10:39 PM on June 28, 2015
Or that she's been poisoned to the extent of becoming more like Hannibal: singleminded and many-faced.
And some of her fans are going "yay! see Alana be sane and normal amidst the chaos!" people really don't get it.
We don't question Chilton though, because Chilton is shallow. Maybe Alana is just not that deep either, in which case having her fear physically removed would work just fine for her.
I mean we all wish we could become a supervillain on demand, maybe Alana's fans want that for her too and are getting their wish.
posted by tel3path at 10:39 PM on June 28, 2015
Well as a Alana fan, this season is depressing. I had hoped to see a sadder but wiser Alana: one who was determined not to let the taint of her time in close orbit with Hannibal embitter her to the world. An Alana who would mend her broken relationship with Will and use their shared trauma to forge a healing bond between them. An Alana who would become more resolute to provide sanctuary to and be an aggressive advocate for the Abigail's of the world.
Instead, her emotional landscape has become arid and punishing. It seems like she no longer cares about any the things that motivated her before. This Alana would never try to run interference for a terrified, morally compromised teenaged girl; such a person is no longer on her radar. This Alana has her gaze fixed on a prize far off on the horizon. Whether her motive is vengeance or justice is beside the point. Her experience has not made her a better version of herself, she is an entirely different (and much less likeable) person entirely.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:00 PM on June 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
Instead, her emotional landscape has become arid and punishing. It seems like she no longer cares about any the things that motivated her before. This Alana would never try to run interference for a terrified, morally compromised teenaged girl; such a person is no longer on her radar. This Alana has her gaze fixed on a prize far off on the horizon. Whether her motive is vengeance or justice is beside the point. Her experience has not made her a better version of herself, she is an entirely different (and much less likeable) person entirely.
posted by echolalia67 at 11:00 PM on June 28, 2015 [5 favorites]
True, but Alana always had that tension between advocating for her patient while the FBI was her client. If her efforts only led to that client returning from the dead to push her out a window, I can see why she'd decide she wasn't good at that sort of thing and focus on what she hadn't been doing.
I think the fact that the patient she, in her mind, worked hard to protect did this to her would only incrrase her resolve. Just as Gideon meant to stick a knife in her after she tried to help him. Now Will is openly saying he wishes he'd killed Jack, I think this is partly about being rid of this thorn in her side while making sure his usefulness isn't wasted on the way out.
Alana has not really shown that she's a forgiving person, more that she tries to deny others' flaws. When she can't deny them any more that person is dead to her. I think that for the same reason, the old Alana is dead to her because forgiving herself was never on the table.
posted by tel3path at 1:04 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I think the fact that the patient she, in her mind, worked hard to protect did this to her would only incrrase her resolve. Just as Gideon meant to stick a knife in her after she tried to help him. Now Will is openly saying he wishes he'd killed Jack, I think this is partly about being rid of this thorn in her side while making sure his usefulness isn't wasted on the way out.
Alana has not really shown that she's a forgiving person, more that she tries to deny others' flaws. When she can't deny them any more that person is dead to her. I think that for the same reason, the old Alana is dead to her because forgiving herself was never on the table.
posted by tel3path at 1:04 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
...but anyway, her reaction is a lot more conformant to how we expect a strong character to behave, and they're showing us how unnatural that is through her, I think.
posted by tel3path at 1:10 AM on June 29, 2015
posted by tel3path at 1:10 AM on June 29, 2015
and meanwhile Jack is like nah, I don't care, I'm tuning this all out. Mind you he is quite right in the circumstances.
And then fucking Hannibal has to invite himself to Bella's funeral and go JAAAAAACCCKK PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEEEEEEE oh you obnoxious fucker. You just know he spends all day online like a loser, looking to connect with imaginary friends over his pathetic fantasies... Uh... not that that isn't a noble pastime! But the difference is, he's Hannibal so it's loserly.
What a comedown, though! I mean Hannibal is this notorious serial killer, wanted on multiple continents, and seemingly nobody is lifting a finger to stop him? Must really grate on his sense of justice. Oh, Pazzi and Doemling are on the case? I'm quaking in my boots.
And to cap all the fun, Hannibal's wife does understand him. he's in hell.
posted by tel3path at 1:43 AM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
And then fucking Hannibal has to invite himself to Bella's funeral and go JAAAAAACCCKK PAY ATTENTION TO MEEEEEEEEE oh you obnoxious fucker. You just know he spends all day online like a loser, looking to connect with imaginary friends over his pathetic fantasies... Uh... not that that isn't a noble pastime! But the difference is, he's Hannibal so it's loserly.
What a comedown, though! I mean Hannibal is this notorious serial killer, wanted on multiple continents, and seemingly nobody is lifting a finger to stop him? Must really grate on his sense of justice. Oh, Pazzi and Doemling are on the case? I'm quaking in my boots.
And to cap all the fun, Hannibal's wife does understand him. he's in hell.
posted by tel3path at 1:43 AM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
and Alana asks Will "You're not tempted to forget?" And of her broken bones, she won't even have any truck with the phrasing "how many bones did you break?" "You say that like I broke them".
I just... forgetting is probably a bad thing?
also I'm thinking that "compulsive imitation" applies to other characters besides Chilton.
posted by tel3path at 2:23 AM on June 29, 2015
I just... forgetting is probably a bad thing?
also I'm thinking that "compulsive imitation" applies to other characters besides Chilton.
posted by tel3path at 2:23 AM on June 29, 2015
IDK though. it really seems as though we were always meant to take Alana at face value as someone who didn't know, and now we're meant to take her at face value as someone who doesn't care. Increasingly I feel like I'm reading subtlety into a characterization when it isn't really there.
when she played Chopsticks to Hannibal's symphony that was clearly meant to tell us something. perhaps Alana is just simpler than she appears and doesn't really have any of the layers I'm reading into her. maybe what you see is just what you get with her.
the fan reaction to this season's alana seems to be really positive, so maybe she's there to give the audience what they want and drive the plot forward and that's it.
posted by tel3path at 2:59 AM on June 29, 2015
when she played Chopsticks to Hannibal's symphony that was clearly meant to tell us something. perhaps Alana is just simpler than she appears and doesn't really have any of the layers I'm reading into her. maybe what you see is just what you get with her.
the fan reaction to this season's alana seems to be really positive, so maybe she's there to give the audience what they want and drive the plot forward and that's it.
posted by tel3path at 2:59 AM on June 29, 2015
As you talk about this, I'm thinking that actually, this must be why they included the bit where she helps Jack with the dress. To show she still has some humanity. (And note that in that brief scene she is not holding the cane, which symbolizes Hannibal.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:06 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:06 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
She also doesn't have her face crumpled up with pity like she previously would have. Instead, she has this piercing stare, rather like Hannibal used to have. I can't tell if that's good or bad. But yes, the one scene where she's showing more compassion than before is the dress scene.
posted by tel3path at 5:31 AM on June 29, 2015
posted by tel3path at 5:31 AM on June 29, 2015
You guys I'm considering starting a fan blog. I would say I can't remember the last time I cared enough about a show to do that, but I totally can, and it was ten or eleven years ago. I wasn't even all the way done with puberty yet. What even is happening in my brain right now.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:32 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:32 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
Wow, showbiz_liz, you invented Wikipedia? Creating a fan blog should be a breeze.
No seriously, do it do it do it.
posted by tel3path at 7:41 AM on June 29, 2015
No seriously, do it do it do it.
posted by tel3path at 7:41 AM on June 29, 2015
Oh, Liz. If you're following the same trajectory I did in my first-show-obsession-since-Buffy, then within three months you will not only have a blog but will be knee-deep in making your first fanvid. Come join us way over here on the far side of reasonable obsession. The water's warm and has only a few snails in it.
posted by Stacey at 7:43 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 7:43 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
...I have never edited video but I do have two ideas for fanvids already kicking around in my probably-encephalitic brain
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:44 AM on June 29, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:44 AM on June 29, 2015
I hadn't either. It's okay. There are useful tools out there. You will figure it out. Your fanvids will be enchanting and terrifying. We await them anxiously.
posted by Stacey at 7:45 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by Stacey at 7:45 AM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
I want Abigail's Ghost to visit Alana sometime, like when Alana visits Hannibal's basement (but they seem to just be skipping that part of it this season). Alana should be alone at the time. Or with Will emo-ing in a different room.
And then Alana's enamel façade* cracks and she sobs to Abigail "I'm so sorry" and Abigail says "No I'm sorry I killed you" and they hold hands and cry it out together.
Then ghost!Abigail could say "Will thinks I blame him for not running away with Hannibal, but I don't, I don't. He's so consumed with self-blame that he can't even see me."
*Did you know that Madame X and her ilk used to literally enamel their faces? I did not know this till I read a biography of her, and was it full of details about the beauty rituals of that era that really made the women seem accessible.
posted by tel3path at 8:28 AM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
And then Alana's enamel façade* cracks and she sobs to Abigail "I'm so sorry" and Abigail says "No I'm sorry I killed you" and they hold hands and cry it out together.
Then ghost!Abigail could say "Will thinks I blame him for not running away with Hannibal, but I don't, I don't. He's so consumed with self-blame that he can't even see me."
*Did you know that Madame X and her ilk used to literally enamel their faces? I did not know this till I read a biography of her, and was it full of details about the beauty rituals of that era that really made the women seem accessible.
posted by tel3path at 8:28 AM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
...and then Abigail helpfully shoves Hannibal out a window, to the surprise of everyone, most of all Hannibal.
Alana and Will, who were witnesses, then have some splainin to do before Kade Purnell.
posted by tel3path at 9:10 AM on June 29, 2015
Alana and Will, who were witnesses, then have some splainin to do before Kade Purnell.
posted by tel3path at 9:10 AM on June 29, 2015
...and then Alana goes, "wait what - sorry you 'killed' me?"
And Abigail goes, "well yeah, have you looked in a mirror lately?" and holds one up - no reflection
posted by tel3path at 11:05 AM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
And Abigail goes, "well yeah, have you looked in a mirror lately?" and holds one up - no reflection
posted by tel3path at 11:05 AM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
You guys, I looked back at last week's thread and apparently I said "They've never gotten this explicit with the "Will and Hanni sitting in a tree" stuff before."
...I did not know how much more there was to come, good lord
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:28 PM on June 29, 2015
...I did not know how much more there was to come, good lord
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:28 PM on June 29, 2015
It's hard to see because the way this show is lit makes the X-Files look like Baywatch, but are Abigail and Chiyoh wearing the same jacket?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:40 PM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:40 PM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]
No they aren't but there's no way that it's an accident that they're costumed so similarly. It'll be interesting to see what parallels they'll be playing up. We've already seen hunting.
posted by echolalia67 at 6:45 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by echolalia67 at 6:45 PM on June 29, 2015 [2 favorites]
You know... when Alana talks about "friendship with Hannibal is blackmail elevated to the level of love" that actually best fits Abigail's relationship with Hannibal. Abigail, who Alana forgot long ago.
And when Will talks about a "mutually unspoken pact to ignore the worst in each other in order to continue enjoying the best" that fits Alana's relationship with Hannibal much more than it ever fit Will's, even at his most spellbound.
It's like he's holding a mirror up to her, and having gone full vampire - she can't see herself in it. She just tells Will he's wrong about Hannibal (again).
So what Will hears Alana saying is "I will continue to treat you the same as I always have. Please hate me." That is when Will disinvites her. That's not an unreasonable thing to do to a vampire, really.
It also bodes ill for Alana's Manipulation Mission. Unless that was the effect she was going for - reinforce Will's isolation and strengthen his resolve to pursue Hannibal, who is clearly all he has. The reason Alana's historically been bad at getting people to comply with her is because she tells them they're wrong, their feelings are wrong, and they shouldn't be doing what they're doing. Meanwhile, Hannibal tells people they should go for it! Their feelings are right! And of course he has people eating out of his hand. If Alana hasn't learned better, this is all going to end in slapstick.
Jack is equally marvellous. First he chides Will for not coming to see him (oh, me mememmeme!) And then says "I'm here to make sure you don't tell the truth. Hey, it's just like old times, you know like all those months when you were in jail!"
In other words "Hi Will! I came to make moar demands on you! Please hate me!"
And that stuff about "I wanted to run away with him" - that was the plan for what to do INSTEAD of killing Jack. I just this moment put that together. So he's not quite saying "I wish I'd killed you" though that is what Jack obviously would hear.
posted by tel3path at 4:07 AM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
And when Will talks about a "mutually unspoken pact to ignore the worst in each other in order to continue enjoying the best" that fits Alana's relationship with Hannibal much more than it ever fit Will's, even at his most spellbound.
It's like he's holding a mirror up to her, and having gone full vampire - she can't see herself in it. She just tells Will he's wrong about Hannibal (again).
So what Will hears Alana saying is "I will continue to treat you the same as I always have. Please hate me." That is when Will disinvites her. That's not an unreasonable thing to do to a vampire, really.
It also bodes ill for Alana's Manipulation Mission. Unless that was the effect she was going for - reinforce Will's isolation and strengthen his resolve to pursue Hannibal, who is clearly all he has. The reason Alana's historically been bad at getting people to comply with her is because she tells them they're wrong, their feelings are wrong, and they shouldn't be doing what they're doing. Meanwhile, Hannibal tells people they should go for it! Their feelings are right! And of course he has people eating out of his hand. If Alana hasn't learned better, this is all going to end in slapstick.
Jack is equally marvellous. First he chides Will for not coming to see him (oh, me mememmeme!) And then says "I'm here to make sure you don't tell the truth. Hey, it's just like old times, you know like all those months when you were in jail!"
In other words "Hi Will! I came to make moar demands on you! Please hate me!"
And that stuff about "I wanted to run away with him" - that was the plan for what to do INSTEAD of killing Jack. I just this moment put that together. So he's not quite saying "I wish I'd killed you" though that is what Jack obviously would hear.
posted by tel3path at 4:07 AM on June 30, 2015 [1 favorite]
This person does good recaps (of the 'funny' variety, not the 'obsessively researched' variety).
And that stuff about "I wanted to run away with him" - that was the plan for what to do INSTEAD of killing Jack. I just this moment put that together. So he's not quite saying "I wish I'd killed you" though that is what Jack obviously would hear.
I interpreted that line as saying, "I told him to run away before I got there, because I knew I wanted to run away with him, and I also knew that was a crazy thing to want. So I was trying to make that impossible for myself by chasing him away first."
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:26 AM on June 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
And that stuff about "I wanted to run away with him" - that was the plan for what to do INSTEAD of killing Jack. I just this moment put that together. So he's not quite saying "I wish I'd killed you" though that is what Jack obviously would hear.
I interpreted that line as saying, "I told him to run away before I got there, because I knew I wanted to run away with him, and I also knew that was a crazy thing to want. So I was trying to make that impossible for myself by chasing him away first."
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:26 AM on June 30, 2015 [3 favorites]
...I'm not sure we can classify any one of Alana's actions as either caring or not caring. I read a few fan comments saying that taking care of the dogs was caring, and the dress scene was caring. I'm not saying it isn't - but just as we can't take the Baddest Bitch in Baltimore persona at face value, we can't take ostensibly caring actions at face value either.
The thing about Hannibal is that even his actions lie. Like would you interpret the letter of condolence from Hannibal as caring? We know enough now that we can't necessarily say it's not, but at the very least there's more to it than that.
I think taking care of the dogs is necessary to get Will back out into the field; the dress scene could be entirely sympathy or it could be relationship-building the way Hannibal used to do.
I mean just think how Jack said Hannibal was such a good friend, making him breakfast after saving Bella's life like that. Who would interpret that as anything other than caring? Uh, someone who knows Hannibal well enough to know better.
And the complicating factor is what range of emotion/motivation Alana is now capable of after her personality change. It could be that she tells herself she's doing these things for multiple motives like Hannibal would have - she is already dressing somewhat like her former mentor. I feel like, if her personality change is part of a story she's telling herself, that the only way to deal with that kind of shock in the immediate term would be to become Hannibal, just as Will was dealing with his horrification by talking like Hannibal and saying "oh don't worry he'll try to kill Mason and I'll arrest him" because it seemed like the best way to protect himself. She would think of herself as already having been on a trajectory to becoming Hannibal, at least partly - why change that just because that doesn't mean what she thought it meant? He is the most powerful and prestigious person she ever knew, and she could really use some power and prestige right now.
I feel that, like Will, Alana is going to see the situation escape her control and is going to, like Will, walk into her living room and see her quarry engaging in antics she didn't anticipate.
Or maybe, personality change = real and total, she really is like Hannibal now, in which case she'll have the same level of Mephistophelean control as he had and completely turn the tables. Which would be nice, albeit at the apparent cost of Alana's soul, but if the damn thing just itched anyway...
posted by tel3path at 11:02 AM on June 30, 2015
The thing about Hannibal is that even his actions lie. Like would you interpret the letter of condolence from Hannibal as caring? We know enough now that we can't necessarily say it's not, but at the very least there's more to it than that.
I think taking care of the dogs is necessary to get Will back out into the field; the dress scene could be entirely sympathy or it could be relationship-building the way Hannibal used to do.
I mean just think how Jack said Hannibal was such a good friend, making him breakfast after saving Bella's life like that. Who would interpret that as anything other than caring? Uh, someone who knows Hannibal well enough to know better.
And the complicating factor is what range of emotion/motivation Alana is now capable of after her personality change. It could be that she tells herself she's doing these things for multiple motives like Hannibal would have - she is already dressing somewhat like her former mentor. I feel like, if her personality change is part of a story she's telling herself, that the only way to deal with that kind of shock in the immediate term would be to become Hannibal, just as Will was dealing with his horrification by talking like Hannibal and saying "oh don't worry he'll try to kill Mason and I'll arrest him" because it seemed like the best way to protect himself. She would think of herself as already having been on a trajectory to becoming Hannibal, at least partly - why change that just because that doesn't mean what she thought it meant? He is the most powerful and prestigious person she ever knew, and she could really use some power and prestige right now.
I feel that, like Will, Alana is going to see the situation escape her control and is going to, like Will, walk into her living room and see her quarry engaging in antics she didn't anticipate.
Or maybe, personality change = real and total, she really is like Hannibal now, in which case she'll have the same level of Mephistophelean control as he had and completely turn the tables. Which would be nice, albeit at the apparent cost of Alana's soul, but if the damn thing just itched anyway...
posted by tel3path at 11:02 AM on June 30, 2015
[speculation based on book stuff]
I've been wondering how they are going to spin Red Dragon for this version of Will. In the book and movies Will visits Hannibal for insight into the killings, but it doesn't seem like this Will, after everything that's gone down, would visit him again after so much time for such a businesslike reason. After all, in the book they'd only met once before, they weren't nakama murder husbands.
I see two possibilities, both of which could be true at once:
-Will has recovered his fragile sanity enough that he would never willingly see Hannibal again, but is forced to by a more compelling reason than "he might have some insight."
-Will has been pining away for Hannibal and looking for an excuse to go visit him that won't make him look totally insane.
So what would be a good reason for this Will to go visit this Hannibal in prison after [mumble] amount of time, just to learn something about the killings? Plus, Hannibal himself is not that prominent in the original narrative - I think he and Will only come face to face once in the entire book - and there's no way they won't increase his role somehow. How?
Well, what if Hannibal Clarices Will? What if he has information he'll only share with Will and no one else, and parcels it out piece by piece in order to force Will to come see him and then keep coming back for more? That, I think, would be enough to drag Will back into his orbit. It would be a good enough reason for a reluctant Will to screw up his courage and face this man again, and a good enough reason for a Will who missed Hannibal to justify a visit. (Plus it would let them use another prominent Silence thing in a non copyright infringing way.)
And then, of course, the mind games would commence...
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:41 AM on July 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
I've been wondering how they are going to spin Red Dragon for this version of Will. In the book and movies Will visits Hannibal for insight into the killings, but it doesn't seem like this Will, after everything that's gone down, would visit him again after so much time for such a businesslike reason. After all, in the book they'd only met once before, they weren't nakama murder husbands.
I see two possibilities, both of which could be true at once:
-Will has recovered his fragile sanity enough that he would never willingly see Hannibal again, but is forced to by a more compelling reason than "he might have some insight."
-Will has been pining away for Hannibal and looking for an excuse to go visit him that won't make him look totally insane.
So what would be a good reason for this Will to go visit this Hannibal in prison after [mumble] amount of time, just to learn something about the killings? Plus, Hannibal himself is not that prominent in the original narrative - I think he and Will only come face to face once in the entire book - and there's no way they won't increase his role somehow. How?
Well, what if Hannibal Clarices Will? What if he has information he'll only share with Will and no one else, and parcels it out piece by piece in order to force Will to come see him and then keep coming back for more? That, I think, would be enough to drag Will back into his orbit. It would be a good enough reason for a reluctant Will to screw up his courage and face this man again, and a good enough reason for a Will who missed Hannibal to justify a visit. (Plus it would let them use another prominent Silence thing in a non copyright infringing way.)
And then, of course, the mind games would commence...
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:41 AM on July 1, 2015 [4 favorites]
And then they break out and run off to Argentina together.
posted by tel3path at 3:47 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 3:47 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
And have Chilton Chitlins for dinner.
posted by wabbittwax at 6:39 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by wabbittwax at 6:39 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
And if Alana continues her present character trajectory, she might become the Jack of future series.
posted by tel3path at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by tel3path at 7:41 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
You know I've had that thought to and it pinged as "no that's too crazy" and those "no that's too crazy" thoughts always seem to somehow come true
posted by The Whelk at 8:48 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 8:48 AM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
You know... rescuing Miriam, and then immediately roping her back into the hunt for Hannibal (never mind that she desperately wanted to be caught) worked out exactly as well as releasing Will and then immediately roping him back into the hunt for Hannibal. We're getting a proper look at the effects of that now.
I'm seeing arguments building up out there over who got hurt the worst - since it arguably wasn't Will, it follows that Will should be doing more to care for his fellow victims. That kind of "who had it worst" contest is so so so missing the point. It's evident that Will suffered a variety of stresses over a prolonged period of time, and he hasn't yet recovered from that. I don't think it's even a matter of *what* is done to someone - though goodness knows a lot was done to Will - it's the ongoing nature of it and having to stay in such a constant state of vigilance and fear.
I also see him being the target of a lot of blame for projecting onto Abigail. Well, Abigail's dead and we don't have thought police. If the only way he can find someone to relate to in the experience is to project his own thoughts onto a dead kid that apparently nobody else is giving any thought to in any form, he might as well because he's not hurting anyone. Abigail might be telling him he failed, but she's not telling him he should forget what happened or that she copyrighted the phrase Hannibal the Cannibal or that he'd better not contradict the official narrative.
He may also be thinking about a cool, cynical Abigail who is telling him he's a yutz for not running away with Hannibal, because the thought of her living all those months in a state of prolonged terror while he was literally in the next room, has got to be something he just can't allow himself to think. He has to fantasize about something more comforting than what apparently happened in reality.
You have to wonder what Alana thinks about her dead patient reappearing before her eyes like that. Even Chilton doesn't quite go there in terms of mentioning it - except by allusion in suggesting Alana got herself not only to the window but through it. So far, she still has made no mention of Abigail at all, and when Will says he's making a memory palace 'for all my friends' she assumes he's talking about Hannibal. Abigail? It's like she never existed.
posted by tel3path at 9:27 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I'm seeing arguments building up out there over who got hurt the worst - since it arguably wasn't Will, it follows that Will should be doing more to care for his fellow victims. That kind of "who had it worst" contest is so so so missing the point. It's evident that Will suffered a variety of stresses over a prolonged period of time, and he hasn't yet recovered from that. I don't think it's even a matter of *what* is done to someone - though goodness knows a lot was done to Will - it's the ongoing nature of it and having to stay in such a constant state of vigilance and fear.
I also see him being the target of a lot of blame for projecting onto Abigail. Well, Abigail's dead and we don't have thought police. If the only way he can find someone to relate to in the experience is to project his own thoughts onto a dead kid that apparently nobody else is giving any thought to in any form, he might as well because he's not hurting anyone. Abigail might be telling him he failed, but she's not telling him he should forget what happened or that she copyrighted the phrase Hannibal the Cannibal or that he'd better not contradict the official narrative.
He may also be thinking about a cool, cynical Abigail who is telling him he's a yutz for not running away with Hannibal, because the thought of her living all those months in a state of prolonged terror while he was literally in the next room, has got to be something he just can't allow himself to think. He has to fantasize about something more comforting than what apparently happened in reality.
You have to wonder what Alana thinks about her dead patient reappearing before her eyes like that. Even Chilton doesn't quite go there in terms of mentioning it - except by allusion in suggesting Alana got herself not only to the window but through it. So far, she still has made no mention of Abigail at all, and when Will says he's making a memory palace 'for all my friends' she assumes he's talking about Hannibal. Abigail? It's like she never existed.
posted by tel3path at 9:27 AM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
And I was going to say... despite what he's been through, Jack seems to have some reserves left because he had Bella in his life. Alana and Will are completely arid and depleted because, to all appearances, Hannibal was the most significant relationship in their lives and now he's gone.
What was even going on in Alana's hospital "room"? It was just a curtain around a bier, with not even a bedside table or a blanket. If it was intended to suggest that Alana was actually dead, it certainly succeeded. Did Alana spend all her hospital time impaled on spikes and nearly naked in a completely empty space?
More importantly, where are Alana's friends and family - is Chilton her first or only visitor? What about her brothers - what happened to them? I can't get my head around the idea that nobody else came to see her, even just to tell her "dear, we brought you these orchids. Your father and I are moving to Mexico now, because you disgraced us all. Also I brought you this gift card to make up for the fact that we're disinheriting you. Be careful how you spend it now, because it'll have to last you a while."
posted by tel3path at 9:46 AM on July 1, 2015
What was even going on in Alana's hospital "room"? It was just a curtain around a bier, with not even a bedside table or a blanket. If it was intended to suggest that Alana was actually dead, it certainly succeeded. Did Alana spend all her hospital time impaled on spikes and nearly naked in a completely empty space?
More importantly, where are Alana's friends and family - is Chilton her first or only visitor? What about her brothers - what happened to them? I can't get my head around the idea that nobody else came to see her, even just to tell her "dear, we brought you these orchids. Your father and I are moving to Mexico now, because you disgraced us all. Also I brought you this gift card to make up for the fact that we're disinheriting you. Be careful how you spend it now, because it'll have to last you a while."
posted by tel3path at 9:46 AM on July 1, 2015
ahaha, the new promo where Alana puts all the pieces together for Mason as to how bloddy obvious Hannibal is being.
I am liking Vampire Bloom.
posted by The Whelk at 2:10 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
I am liking Vampire Bloom.
posted by The Whelk at 2:10 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Do you think the show is slyly referencing the whole fico/fica Italian slang thing? (figs/lady's privates) Probably not, but that's where my brain went first. Also, figs, split, put under a broiler with honey, then served with cream.
posted by PussKillian at 4:52 PM on July 1, 2015
posted by PussKillian at 4:52 PM on July 1, 2015
probably, yes, this show never met a heavy handed metaphor it didn't like, and also stop talking filthy PussKillian
posted by tel3path at 5:02 PM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 5:02 PM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
If Alana is going to become Jack and if maybe we're not going to get Clarice, can Miriam Lass do the Silence of the Lambs story instead? Can you imagine Miriam sitting through the glass from Hannibal and him calling her a rube and talking about her cheap shoes?
posted by crossoverman at 5:02 PM on July 1, 2015
posted by crossoverman at 5:02 PM on July 1, 2015
No sooner do you cope with one episode than they promote the next hlep
posted by tel3path at 5:02 PM on July 1, 2015
posted by tel3path at 5:02 PM on July 1, 2015
ha ha knowing what we know now, the rejoinder to that would be "who has cheap shoes and isn't incarcerated?"
posted by tel3path at 5:03 PM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by tel3path at 5:03 PM on July 1, 2015 [2 favorites]
Except also knowing what we know, the next scene would be Clarice behind bars and with velcro sneakers
posted by tel3path at 5:04 PM on July 1, 2015
posted by tel3path at 5:04 PM on July 1, 2015
After spending so much time locked up in Hannibal's house, she probably has a taste for fine Italian footwear by now. Hannifluence.
posted by PussKillian at 5:05 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by PussKillian at 5:05 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Can you imagine Miriam sitting through the glass from Hannibal and him calling her a rube and talking about her cheap shoes?
I know this has come up before (in this thread, the previous one?) but I just can't imagine this Hannibal saying the crass belittling shit to Clarice (or whoever she might morph into on the show) that Silence-book-or-movie Hannibal did unless he undergoes a major breakdown. Show Hannibal is manipulative but not mean or incivil whereas book-and-Hopkins Hannibal seemed as if they'd always been supercilious bastards. I'm probably forgetting some things, but has Show Hannibal said anything at all insulting to anyone other than "It's only cannibalism if we're equals"? -- which is pretty dang mild, matter-of-fact, and not really aimed at hurting Gideon's feelings.
In fact, he seems vaguely if good-naturedly dismayed when other people trash-talk, like Dimmond snarking about Roman Fell or Sogliato dissing him to his face, which I think would have bugged Hannibal no matter whom it was directed at just because of its unseemliness. Maybe being imprisoned will dismantle his whole Man of Wealth and Taste Suit and make him into a nasty fucker, but if so, it'll be appalling to see.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:36 PM on July 1, 2015
I know this has come up before (in this thread, the previous one?) but I just can't imagine this Hannibal saying the crass belittling shit to Clarice (or whoever she might morph into on the show) that Silence-book-or-movie Hannibal did unless he undergoes a major breakdown. Show Hannibal is manipulative but not mean or incivil whereas book-and-Hopkins Hannibal seemed as if they'd always been supercilious bastards. I'm probably forgetting some things, but has Show Hannibal said anything at all insulting to anyone other than "It's only cannibalism if we're equals"? -- which is pretty dang mild, matter-of-fact, and not really aimed at hurting Gideon's feelings.
In fact, he seems vaguely if good-naturedly dismayed when other people trash-talk, like Dimmond snarking about Roman Fell or Sogliato dissing him to his face, which I think would have bugged Hannibal no matter whom it was directed at just because of its unseemliness. Maybe being imprisoned will dismantle his whole Man of Wealth and Taste Suit and make him into a nasty fucker, but if so, it'll be appalling to see.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:36 PM on July 1, 2015
That actually came up in a very early Anglofilles podcast about all things Thomas Harris and Hannibal and how Hannibal when caged is kind of, like invested in his image and keeping people scared of him so he's like this mad king in exile and not a mutter in a box. Like that's the only pride he has left, terrifying people and occasionally maiming guards. He's got a reputation to maintain after all. so this Hannibal, well he might very well be crude and uncivil, if only cause it'll be such a shock to us , the viewers who've been with him way before this point, but also that's how he unmoors and upsets anyone who comes to visit him. Cause he has a reputation to maintain as the star prisoner of the Baltimore State Dungeons For the Criminally Fascinating.
posted by The Whelk at 10:26 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:26 PM on July 1, 2015 [1 favorite]
Hannibal cast released from their contracts.
That's it, then. That's really too big of an obstacle for the show to overcome. If they have to renegotiate contracts, that's likely to put off most networks. If the cast was still under contract, I could easily image the show turning up elsewhere.
I think the best we can hope for now is some kind of movie to wrap up whatever potential cliffhanger season three leaves us with. The only other possibility is that they are shedding the cast so they can just bring back Mads and Hugh? But that's a long bow to draw.
I think the show is dead. It'll leave a pretty corpse, though.
posted by crossoverman at 4:20 AM on July 2, 2015
That's it, then. That's really too big of an obstacle for the show to overcome. If they have to renegotiate contracts, that's likely to put off most networks. If the cast was still under contract, I could easily image the show turning up elsewhere.
I think the best we can hope for now is some kind of movie to wrap up whatever potential cliffhanger season three leaves us with. The only other possibility is that they are shedding the cast so they can just bring back Mads and Hugh? But that's a long bow to draw.
I think the show is dead. It'll leave a pretty corpse, though.
posted by crossoverman at 4:20 AM on July 2, 2015
I double checked and Community's sixth season was announced the day the actor's contracts were set to expire.
So, yeah. This is really bad. :(
posted by sparkletone at 4:45 AM on July 2, 2015
So, yeah. This is really bad. :(
posted by sparkletone at 4:45 AM on July 2, 2015
Gillian bent over backwards to make S2 bits work, so yeah, it won't be that the cast doesn't want it to happen. Still. Not good.
posted by sparkletone at 5:37 AM on July 2, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 5:37 AM on July 2, 2015
I don't recall seeing any horses in that music video but maybe I missed something the first ten times...
posted by sparkletone at 7:19 AM on July 2, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 7:19 AM on July 2, 2015
I got something for you, a gift for all of you, coming out in exactly a week.
Stay strong.
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
Stay strong.
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's it, then. That's really too big of an obstacle for the show to overcome.
They were never gonna resolve this in less than two weeks. I don't think this represents a bigger obstacle than cancellation did.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:52 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
They were never gonna resolve this in less than two weeks. I don't think this represents a bigger obstacle than cancellation did.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:52 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
RE: Hannibal's treatment of Clarice...
Clarice seems like a much different character than Will. Show Will has always been the opposite side of the serial murder artist (although lately he's come close enough to the edge that he's begun to wrap around). Most Clarice treatments are different, I think, and much less a kindred spirit. She's a striver, a country girl, less delicate and fragile. Will is a reluctant academic, and Clarice is eager to prove herself in a male dominated world.
I can't imagine show Hannibal ever being impolite (the greatest sin), even when he's chopping someone up, but I don't think he'll take a shine to Clarice like he took to Will.
posted by codacorolla at 11:04 AM on July 2, 2015
Clarice seems like a much different character than Will. Show Will has always been the opposite side of the serial murder artist (although lately he's come close enough to the edge that he's begun to wrap around). Most Clarice treatments are different, I think, and much less a kindred spirit. She's a striver, a country girl, less delicate and fragile. Will is a reluctant academic, and Clarice is eager to prove herself in a male dominated world.
I can't imagine show Hannibal ever being impolite (the greatest sin), even when he's chopping someone up, but I don't think he'll take a shine to Clarice like he took to Will.
posted by codacorolla at 11:04 AM on July 2, 2015
I can't imagine show Hannibal ever being impolite (the greatest sin), even when he's chopping someone up
I don't know. Look at the episode last season where the Sardinians kidnap him. Once he's incapacitated, he immediately starts saying very cruel things, because that's all he has left to manipulate people with.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:08 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I don't know. Look at the episode last season where the Sardinians kidnap him. Once he's incapacitated, he immediately starts saying very cruel things, because that's all he has left to manipulate people with.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:08 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
That's assuming a best case scenario, and that we get Clarice as the new protagonist at all. I really do want to see Fuller do Silence, so I'm hoping...
posted by codacorolla at 11:08 AM on July 2, 2015
posted by codacorolla at 11:08 AM on July 2, 2015
You know, if Jack is already being forced to retire now, that means he couldn't be around for Silence in an official capacity. And they've just made it clear that Behavioral Science is being downsized.
If that changes once the Tooth Fairy become active, maybe Jack goes to Will not to ask him to come help, but to try and get him to be the new head of Behavioral Science. I mean, according to the 'official narrative' he is a hero, despite what we all know. I know this isn't the most plausible thing that could happen, but-
Remember that part in the movie - "You're one of Jack Crawford's, aren't you?" and then "Jack Crawford sent a trainee to me?" Imagine if it was Will instead? How totally insulted would Hannibal be then? "Will Graham sent a trainee to me?" And then, how much would he want to fuck with Will by forming a relationship with his protegee?
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:15 AM on July 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
If that changes once the Tooth Fairy become active, maybe Jack goes to Will not to ask him to come help, but to try and get him to be the new head of Behavioral Science. I mean, according to the 'official narrative' he is a hero, despite what we all know. I know this isn't the most plausible thing that could happen, but-
Remember that part in the movie - "You're one of Jack Crawford's, aren't you?" and then "Jack Crawford sent a trainee to me?" Imagine if it was Will instead? How totally insulted would Hannibal be then? "Will Graham sent a trainee to me?" And then, how much would he want to fuck with Will by forming a relationship with his protegee?
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:15 AM on July 2, 2015 [4 favorites]
Either Will or Alana being head of the BCU would fix that "Uh, Will isn't actually IN this book" problem going forward...
posted by The Whelk at 11:20 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 11:20 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I'd be happy with Hannibal having imaginary conversations with Will, too. He doesn't need to be in the show to be in the show.
posted by neuromodulator at 11:22 AM on July 2, 2015
posted by neuromodulator at 11:22 AM on July 2, 2015
If Will does end up head of the BCU (possibly due to this work on the Tooth Fairy case? Idk maybe ?) then I want to see the moment he's offered the job
posted by The Whelk at 11:23 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 11:23 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
The time jump starts when they tell him.
Jack: "Will, we'd like you to come back to the FBI... as head of the BCU."
Will: *begins laughing hysterically*
[Chyron: "Three Years Later"]
Will: *finishes laughing hysterically* "Yeah ok, sure"
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:26 AM on July 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
Jack: "Will, we'd like you to come back to the FBI... as head of the BCU."
Will: *begins laughing hysterically*
[Chyron: "Three Years Later"]
Will: *finishes laughing hysterically* "Yeah ok, sure"
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:26 AM on July 2, 2015 [5 favorites]
As much as I am still optimistic about the prospects for a future season, I am also having flashbacks to being one of the seven people who watched Firefly while it was actually on the air... now every nerd in America has the DVDs
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:37 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:37 AM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
watching the show slowly gain more and more critical prise is one of the few times I can say I Liked It Before It Was Cool
posted by The Whelk at 11:43 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 11:43 AM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
'Hannibal': TV's Happiest Meal (Rolling Stone)
Dat header image tho
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:15 PM on July 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
Dat header image tho
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:15 PM on July 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
They were never gonna resolve this in less than two weeks. I don't think this represents a bigger obstacle than cancellation did.
Except cancellation wasn't really cancellation, it was just NBC said they weren't going to air a fourth season. Up until yesterday, the show existed as a package that could be slid across the table to Amazon or Hulu or AMC... and now that package has been broken up into its various fragments.
If the renewal of contracts was due yesterday, no wonder NBC had to make such an early announcement on renewal/cancellation.
I'm sure all the actors would love to work together again, but this makes it much harder/more expensive for another outlet to pick up the show. So much for "foreign sales will keep us alive forever".
I'd love to be surprised. I want Fuller to finish. I have no interest in American Gods. But, right now, I think the show is done. And maybe the show will be resurrected later but for now it's gone. We've still got another 9 episodes to watch, though.
posted by crossoverman at 1:57 PM on July 2, 2015
Except cancellation wasn't really cancellation, it was just NBC said they weren't going to air a fourth season. Up until yesterday, the show existed as a package that could be slid across the table to Amazon or Hulu or AMC... and now that package has been broken up into its various fragments.
If the renewal of contracts was due yesterday, no wonder NBC had to make such an early announcement on renewal/cancellation.
I'm sure all the actors would love to work together again, but this makes it much harder/more expensive for another outlet to pick up the show. So much for "foreign sales will keep us alive forever".
I'd love to be surprised. I want Fuller to finish. I have no interest in American Gods. But, right now, I think the show is done. And maybe the show will be resurrected later but for now it's gone. We've still got another 9 episodes to watch, though.
posted by crossoverman at 1:57 PM on July 2, 2015
On the Matter of Taste podcast for this episode they address the many answered questions, and seem irritated that one remains unanswered: Seriously, who the fuck is giving Will Old Spice for Christmas?
posted by sparkletone at 3:23 PM on July 2, 2015
posted by sparkletone at 3:23 PM on July 2, 2015
Terry Crews probably
posted by wabbittwax at 4:15 PM on July 2, 2015
posted by wabbittwax at 4:15 PM on July 2, 2015
On the subject of Mads' Hannibal saying rude, provocative stuff to Clarice, should they ever meet: I would totally believe him saying every single one of those things. Hannibal's prime motivation throughout the series has been curiousity. Confronted with this new member of the Crawford crew he would be just itching to poke at her and see what comes of it. He would not say those lines even remotely the same way as Hopkins would obviously but there is really nothing this Hannibal wouldn't try just to see what happens. I imagine him saying it with a laconic exasperation, gradually sharpening as his analysis gets more personal and embarrassing.
"You know what you look like to me, with your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube -- a well scrubbed rube -- with a little taste. Good nutrition has given you some length of bone but you're not much more than one generation from poor white trash ... "
It would be a slower burn than Hopkins but it would be very effective in its own way.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:30 PM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
"You know what you look like to me, with your good bag and your cheap shoes? You look like a rube -- a well scrubbed rube -- with a little taste. Good nutrition has given you some length of bone but you're not much more than one generation from poor white trash ... "
It would be a slower burn than Hopkins but it would be very effective in its own way.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:30 PM on July 2, 2015 [2 favorites]
I just watched a bit of Red Dragon and it was even more disappointing than I'd remembered. Ed Norton is barely even moist, and Anthony Hopkins was like someone doing a Not Another Teen Serial Killer Movie parody of Hannibal Lecter.
sob
posted by poffin boffin at 5:15 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
sob
posted by poffin boffin at 5:15 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
greg i s2g you are the finest filmmaker of our time
posted by poffin boffin at 5:22 PM on July 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
posted by poffin boffin at 5:22 PM on July 2, 2015 [3 favorites]
please don't let my unashamed enjoyment of michael bay's oeuvre diminish or dilute this praise
posted by poffin boffin at 5:22 PM on July 2, 2015
posted by poffin boffin at 5:22 PM on July 2, 2015
I enjoy how your WillGram sounds like Shaggy from Scooby Do
posted by The Whelk at 5:25 PM on July 2, 2015
posted by The Whelk at 5:25 PM on July 2, 2015
Crossoverman - I mean, sure, but it's not like they didn't KNOW the contracts were about to expire when it got cancelled, and they still started shopping it around, even though they knew there was no way they'd lock down a new deal in less than two weeks. They wouldn't have even bothered if this contract issue was The End.
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:58 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:58 PM on July 2, 2015 [1 favorite]
I watched the Red Dragon film recently (for the first time) and it really is quite terrible. But it does do the book ending, which was changed for Manhunter. Will be interesting to see what the show does. Somehow make it more fucked up, probably.
posted by crossoverman at 7:42 PM on July 2, 2015
posted by crossoverman at 7:42 PM on July 2, 2015
I watched the Red Dragon film recently (for the first time) and it really is quite terrible. But it does do the book ending, which was changed for Manhunter.
Not exactly; in the book, Graham is left disfigured for life because Dolarhyde stabs him in the face. Later novels imply that Graham becomes a broken-down alcoholic as a result.
posted by kewb at 8:25 AM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Not exactly; in the book, Graham is left disfigured for life because Dolarhyde stabs him in the face. Later novels imply that Graham becomes a broken-down alcoholic as a result.
posted by kewb at 8:25 AM on July 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Cleolinda's recap is up. (But it's heavily informed by the rest of the season since she took a while to post it, so enter with care, all ye who have not yet seen the rest of the show.)
posted by Stacey at 10:15 AM on August 31, 2015
posted by Stacey at 10:15 AM on August 31, 2015
I think this is my favorite episode of the show. It's hard to explain why. But as the show strides confidently into the third season, it waits til the 4th episode(!) to get around to telling us what happened with the wreckage of the previous season's finale. And you hardly notice it! You don't spend a lot of time wondering what happened to Mason, or Alana, or Chilton before this. This is what swagger this show has. The episode ends with Will sailing off to Europe to be with Hannibal! The music goes anywhere it needs to ratchet up the delight. Chilton crawls like a snake in every way he can, manipulating everyone in a pale imitation of Hannibal.
But the standout, and what shamefully won't get an Emmy, is Laurence Fishburne's performance. So. Good.
posted by Catblack at 5:50 AM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
But the standout, and what shamefully won't get an Emmy, is Laurence Fishburne's performance. So. Good.
posted by Catblack at 5:50 AM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]
Yes, this episode is a total standout. I love how it's basically just a series of two-person conversations, tied together by Chilton Chiltoning all over the place.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:47 AM on September 4, 2015
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:47 AM on September 4, 2015
This remark by kewb, I was so sure I replied to it at the time.
Here's what I think Will meant when he said in S2 that he'd given up good and evil for behaviourism. I think he was literally divulging the core secret of his mission to Hannibal, in much the same way that Hannibal continually tells people the food is people.
It's this: appealing to others' morality, reason, sense of justice, or whatever, totally got Will NOWHERE except a dungeon. He started making progress when he started incentivizing people to follow his agenda. Hey Chilton, what if you did X? You could be famous. Hey Alana, I killed Freddie, you should probably get me arrested! Hey Hannibal, do I got the booty? And so on.
The exception was Beverly, and even with her he had to trade quid pro quo. I acknowledge that there is also some ambiguity about Jack; I think his core values are at stake here, beyond just the damage to his ego; and I do think they're driving his motives to an extent.
posted by tel3path at 5:04 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
Here's what I think Will meant when he said in S2 that he'd given up good and evil for behaviourism. I think he was literally divulging the core secret of his mission to Hannibal, in much the same way that Hannibal continually tells people the food is people.
It's this: appealing to others' morality, reason, sense of justice, or whatever, totally got Will NOWHERE except a dungeon. He started making progress when he started incentivizing people to follow his agenda. Hey Chilton, what if you did X? You could be famous. Hey Alana, I killed Freddie, you should probably get me arrested! Hey Hannibal, do I got the booty? And so on.
The exception was Beverly, and even with her he had to trade quid pro quo. I acknowledge that there is also some ambiguity about Jack; I think his core values are at stake here, beyond just the damage to his ego; and I do think they're driving his motives to an extent.
posted by tel3path at 5:04 PM on January 9, 2016 [2 favorites]
This thread is closed to new comments.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 25, 2015 [7 favorites]