Hannibal: The Wrath of the Lamb
August 27, 2015 8:00 PM - Season 3, Episode 13 - Subscribe

Will hatches a cunning plot to slay Francis Dolarhyde, using Hannibal Lecter in his ploy. Bedelia voices concern about the perilous plan as Will continues his game with Hannibal, though Will may have to face his darkest fears.
posted by sparkletone (1853 comments total) 11 users marked this as a favorite
 
MORIARTYYYYYY CLIFF MANEUVERRRRRRRRR
posted by Greg Nog at 8:00 PM on August 27, 2015 [8 favorites]


Oh my god, that post-credits bit. Jesus.
posted by figurant at 8:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


THAT WAS MY FIRST THOUGHT TOO
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:01 PM on August 27, 2015


I NEED A TORRENT ~sob~
posted by Windigo at 8:01 PM on August 27, 2015


I HAVE DIED I HAVE PERISHED I HAVE LEFT THIS EARTH I HAVE SHOOK OFF THE MORTAL COIL I AM IN THE BOSOM OF THE MAKER I AM POSTING FROM THE AFTERLIFE

we have cameras
posted by poffin boffin at 8:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [9 favorites]


The moriarty part, obviously. But I thought maybe I just spent too much time in the Sherlock fandom.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:01 PM on August 27, 2015


GOODBYE MY FRIENDS I AM GONE
posted by poffin boffin at 8:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


WE COULD HAVE HAD IT ALLLLLLLLL

EATING HUMAN SHEEEEEEEEEP
posted by poffin boffin at 8:02 PM on August 27, 2015 [8 favorites]


AHHHH WANT TO FORM MORE COHERENTS THOUGHTS BUT FINDING IT SO DIFFICULT
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:02 PM on August 27, 2015


you guys i've been lurking here in the show threads for like a year and this isn't much of a first comment but jesus holy what the actual fuck
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:02 PM on August 27, 2015 [18 favorites]


Going my way?

We got everything but the kiss!
posted by bfranklin at 8:03 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]


i had to close my front door because i was screaming and people were concerned and i had to explain it was because MURDER HUSBANDS WERE MURDERING
posted by poffin boffin at 8:03 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]


do you think it was a reference to the Cosby Show's "Cliff" Huxtable
posted by Greg Nog at 8:03 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]


will definitely kissed him as they fell this is fact i assert this without hesitation
posted by poffin boffin at 8:04 PM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]


ngl guys I thought that song was cheesy as fuck
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [9 favorites]


So when they said that thing about "best cliffhanger endings" do you think they were secretly laughing to themselves being like "GET IT A CLIFF DO YOU GET IT YOU'LL GET IT SOON"
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [18 favorites]


I AM EMOTIONS

"THIS IS ALL I EVER WANTED FOR YOU WILL"

"IT'S BEAUTIFUL"
posted by poffin boffin at 8:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


Sucks to be Molly
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [19 favorites]


tbh yeah i would have preferred some glorious operatic madness
posted by poffin boffin at 8:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


Someone needs to pick up this fucking show.

THIS FUCKING SHOW!!!
posted by bfranklin at 8:06 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


AND THEN THEY MAKE OUT. RIGHT AFTER THE CREDITS. I AM SURE OF IT.

Fucking Bryan Fuller. Fucking Hannigram. Fucking Bedelia.
posted by Stacey at 8:06 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


but then again any time i am at a friends house for dinner i insist on doing the dramatic statue solo from don giovanni
posted by poffin boffin at 8:06 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


ngl guys I thought that song was cheesy as fuck

i loved it but then i was a teen in the 90s which means all my aesthetic choices are filtered through the Mortal Kombat soundtrack
posted by Greg Nog at 8:06 PM on August 27, 2015 [11 favorites]


There were THREE PLACE SETTINGS
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:06 PM on August 27, 2015 [23 favorites]


That fucking post credits stinger INFURIATES ME because HOW AND WHY AND WHAT
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:06 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]


even tho i can't really hit that bottom note in "e son venuto"
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


There were THREE PLACE SETTINGS

MURDER HUSBANDS CAN HAVE DINNER PARTIES THAT'S ALLOWED
posted by poffin boffin at 8:08 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]


IT IS THAT KIND OF PARTY
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:08 PM on August 27, 2015 [16 favorites]


cough cough cough
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:09 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]


It was always that kind of party, it just took Will a little while to figure it out.

Also holy hell that Alana and Hannibal scene. LEAVE MARGOT AND THE VERGERBABY ALONE YOU MONSTER. GO MAKE KISSYFACES WITH YOUR MURDER HUSBAND AND YOUR MURDER EX-WIFE.
posted by Stacey at 8:10 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]


someone text the whelk and see if he survived
posted by poffin boffin at 8:10 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]


It was always that kind of party, it just took Will a little while to figure it out.

This season began and ended with a murder threesome
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh Bedeeeeelia
You're breaking my heart
You're shaking my confidence laaately
Oh Bedeeeelia
You're down on your knees
Well you sort of have to be at this point don't you, pass the port
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:13 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]


Oh yeah and also among the many reasons that I cannot accept this show's ending is I that need to know what Fuller would have done to further maim Chilton next season. I don't understand how Raul Esparza can emote enough to make me laugh even under all those prosthetics. He is some sort of acting wizard.
posted by Stacey at 8:18 PM on August 27, 2015 [7 favorites]


WALP
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:20 PM on August 27, 2015 [14 favorites]


you are doing the lord's work
posted by poffin boffin at 8:21 PM on August 27, 2015


I am totally ready for a cigarette and a naked oil rub.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:21 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


Seriously, I'm really mad he? They? survived.
posted by PussKillian at 8:23 PM on August 27, 2015


Wait, there was a post-credits bit? After the kiss and the cheesy song started I killed the feed.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:24 PM on August 27, 2015


looks like you done fucked up son
posted by poffin boffin at 8:24 PM on August 27, 2015 [11 favorites]


I mean after all I don't think anybody seriously proposes that Thelma and Louise survived.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:25 PM on August 27, 2015


Yup, 'tain't the first time neither.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:25 PM on August 27, 2015


But frankly I kind of assumed they survived, because Fuller had plans for a fourth season. Even if those are never realized he couldn't have killed off Will and Hannibal.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:26 PM on August 27, 2015


When Hannibal was all like,

This is all I ever wanted for you

And then Will embraced him

I was so busy being like

MAKEOUT MAKEOUT MAKEOUT

that I was still totally shocked when they went over the cliff.

And I mean, I like basically have nightmares about Reichenbach. I SHOULD KNOW WHAT STANDING ON CLIFFS/BUILDINGS MEANS.

But I was still like NOOOOOO why didn't you have sex????

And then I was waiting for the credit scene, and then it happened and I was just like

What am i looking at OH NOOOOO BEDIALIAAAAA

And then as I was flailing it hit me. MY TWO FANDOMS HAVE OFFICIALLY MERGED INTO ONE. SHERLOCK AND HANNIBAL JOHNLOCK HANNIGRAM FOREVER.

And then I whispered to myself, "This is my becoming."

And the dog looked at me like wtf.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:27 PM on August 27, 2015 [17 favorites]


OK but if I wind up hearing that the plan for season 4 involved amnesia then so fucking help me god
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:27 PM on August 27, 2015


they did it

they did the sex

they totally did the sex we all know they did the sex
posted by poffin boffin at 8:28 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


yep in mid-air
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:29 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


I don't know why I used so many line breaks. I don't even know what I'm saying.

Am I alive?

Are we alive?

Is it over?

DID THEY MAKEOUT WHILE THEY WERE FALLING???

Although really, violently murdering someone is pretty much like their version of having sex. So, I guess they finally consummated their relationship.

I JUST WISH THEY HAD DONE IT WITHOUT CLOTHES ON
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:30 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ok but seriously though, killing together was the one thing they hadn't done, in the murder=sex universe of the show that was consummation
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:30 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]


fuking

god

damn you

litera scripta manet
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:31 PM on August 27, 2015


I owe you awe a coke
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:32 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


Season 4 is they wash up on the beach somewhere and then angry make out for a whole season.

It's basically that post-shipwreck scene from that terrible Gone With The Wind sequel except a whole season of just "Welp I guess we have to do it FOR WARMTH BECAUSE WE WERE SHIPWRECKED NOT AT ALL BECAUSE WE ARE TOTES IN LOVE."

But yeah that was definitely Murder!Sex and whether there was actual sex before that is almost beside the point. Almost. I still want to know.
posted by Stacey at 8:32 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm cracking open a diet coke in your honor, showbiz_liz!
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:33 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


Does anyone else feel like they're on the verge of crying, screaming, vomiting, or maybe all three at once?

Or is that just me.

It's probably just me.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:35 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


Seriously, Will saying "It's ... beautiful" is going to be one of those things I remember if I live to be a thousand years old. It's up there with Rosebud and the big mother reveal in Psycho.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:35 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh and SOMEDAY THIS WILL ALL FALL INTO THE SEA was totally like not a clue to anything, right?
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:37 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's basically that post-shipwreck scene from that terrible Gone With The Wind

idk i was thinking from here to eternity
posted by poffin boffin at 8:40 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


I can't get "this is my becoming" out of my head. Seriously, I keep thinking it at the weirdest fucking times.

WHAT HAS THIS SHOW DONE TO MY HEAD

And why do I pick shows where the metaphorical cliffhangers turn into real fucking cliffhangers? Or cliff fallers, i guess would be more accurate.

It's going to be okay guys, I promise. I'm from the Sherlock fandom. I've done this before.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:41 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]


Oh, Bryan Fuller, you clever, evil bastard. This is so perfect. They even refer to the time period between The Final Problem and Holmes re-incarnation as "The Great Hiatus." And that's what we're going to have now. The great hiatus, while we desperately wait for this show to be brought back.

Okay, so I have a plan. It totally worked with Arthur Conan Doyle. We just need to write lots of letters, begging, pleading, screaming for them to bring back the show. We need to go into public mourning. We'll vow to wear black every day until we're given more episodes. We'll start rioting in the streets if we have to.

IT WORKED IN VICTORIAN ENGLAND

That's all I'm saying. Or we could, like, convince them to start a kickstarter. They could offer cutting room floor footage of Hannibal and Will making out as one of the incentives.

I've got so many great ideas. Give me a call, Bryan Fuller. We can make this happen.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:50 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]




Question for you fine people. I've read Red Dragon (recently) and Silence (ages ago) and none of the others. Given...this episode, what's the "plot point that was brought up in passing but never really explored" that season 4 is supposed to hinge around, can anyone tell?
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:54 PM on August 27, 2015


Major theory was the last chapter of Hannibal, the novel, which is about how Hannibal and post-brainwash Clarice run off to Argentina together and live it up

it contains this passage (yes really)
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:08 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


THIS REALLY IS MY BECOMING

Hannibal Mads Mikkelsen may end up starring opposite Sherlock Benedict Cumberbatch in the Doctor Strange movie.

That has to be good news, right? Like, if Mads gets even more popular in the US/Canada, that has to make the show more appealing to potential networks, right? Maybe???

Oh god, I should get some sleep tonight, but now all I want to do is right Sherlock/Hannibal crossover fiction. And not like, Sherlock solves a case where Hannibal ends up being the murderer. More like, Johnlock and Hannigram go on a double date/crime solving spree, and Hannibal and Sherlock bond over their knowledge of anatomy and gruesome murders while Will and John bond over being in love with these two batshit crazy, maybe sociopathic, sexy sexy crazy men. And then maybe they all have sex. Together. All four of them.

I DON'T KNOW IT'S JUST AN IDEA
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


nope Hannibal eats Sherlock before the opening credits in that crossover situation I feel like
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:14 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]


Major theory was the last chapter of Hannibal, the novel, which is about how Hannibal and post-brainwash Clarice run off to Argentina together and live it up

I thought about that but decided it was too good to be true. So uh. I'll just be over here thinking about some things.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 9:17 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


It COULD also refer to the weeks of brainwashing that don't get shown explicitly in the book/movie, which was my preferred theory as it allowed for the maximum possible freaky-hallucination potential
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:22 PM on August 27, 2015


ugh why are we talking about hannibal and poodlepoop poopeldoop in the same sentences, this is hideous blasphemy
posted by poffin boffin at 9:25 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]


How awkward would that be to saw off and cook your own leg, set three place settings, and then wait around all night for your murder husbands to show up and then they never show?

That was really...not the post credits scene I was expecting. I don't even know exactly what I was expecting, but it wasn't that.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:39 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]


That was really...not the post credits scene I was expecting. I don't even know exactly what I was expecting, but it wasn't that.

Same.

And of course, it could theoretically be somebody else who did it. We've repeatedly seen serial killers reuse each other's kills in homage to each other, after all. Not saying that's the most likely option but it can't be discounted entirely.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:42 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


it was margot and alana
posted by poffin boffin at 9:47 PM on August 27, 2015 [8 favorites]


"there's only room for two impossibly poised ice queen throatfuck-murderers on this show, lady"
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:51 PM on August 27, 2015 [11 favorites]


Haven't actually read the thread yet. I... needed to see it over again properly before posting anything but I figured you RABID ANIMALS wouldn't be kept waiting and am pleased to come back to 69 (tee hee hee) comments.

Uh.

That was fucking beautiful. I don't think there's a way you could deliver something as over-the-top devastating as Mizumono, at least not twice in a row. This was, for me, every bit as emotionally charged but I'm not left shell-shocked and sad. It was in my opinion every bit as bloody. I'm... incredibly satisfied. Any sadness/bittersweetness I feel is because this will be it for an unknown amount of time.

But goddam that was beautiful.

I didn't fear for Reba at the start once the key business started. I am guessing that was far more fraught for people who aren't familiar with the beats of the novel/earlier adaptations. This was still executed wonderfully. And jesus christ Rutina Wesley nailed every one of her scenes.

I was so glad we got a bizarre, hilarious, adorable last scene for Price and Zeller. And we got a glimpse of Margot and their kid.

I was surprised at how little dread I felt in this episode even after the cut to Bedelia looking absolutely appalled at Will's plan. I was ahead of her though and had already made myself a stiff drink before watching the show (both times). Gillian was fucking flawless, of course and there's ... more to say about her.

The dread started with Hannibal bringing up Alana's moment of bravery from Mizumono. Jesus fucking christ that monologue was as scary as last season's to her. Good on Alana and Margot getting the hell out of there under heavily armed escort.

I expected the plan to go sideways but not quite as immediately as it did. The final showdown though felt very right. In the book, Dolarhyde is killed by Molly as he attacks Will's home. In this version, Hannibal must be present because of course he does, he's the titular character... But also the way this show's developed the relationship... Hannibal's right on a certain level, or at least has arranged things so that he's right at this point. Murder Husbands to the last. Will even got his fancy new facial scar! When Dolarhyde first stabbed him in the face, I couldn't quite tell where the blade went in and worried it was a neck would that missed a major vein/artery.

In the end, they reconsumate their Murder Marriage by slicing Dolarhyde to ribbons (every bit of CG with his wings/blood in that last scene was great). They even had the post-coital, "Didn't that just feel right?" moment of two people getting back together at least for a night.

My take on the post-credits scene: Bedelia did that to herself. Given the bandages, lack of blood, preparation, etc., that shot takes place quite some time after the Reichenbach moment. She knows Hannibal lived. And since she knows he's lived and is now free, she expects a visit. If she's going to get et (which she reasonably does), she's decided to do it on her terms. Until the pan down I expected that to be Dolarhyde's leg and for Hannibal and Will to come walking in. But thinking about it more (and I did have to. Gillian's dress was... distracting), I think I'm right. We'll see what Bryan lets slip in interviews (Todd VanDerWerff already mentioned that he's interviewed Fuller for something that should go up on Sunday).

I have absolutely no idea what could possibly be the plan for the show after this. Obviously, I want more if there's more to be had and am optimistic there will be, but if it doesn't work out for whatever reason, I am okay leaving it here. Much more okay than I was after Mizumono. Given Will and Hannibal's state, that salt water's going to sting like hell. Also the mic drop thing is now a... literal main character drop ell oh ell.

God damn. This fucking show.

Time to go read other comments and wallow in tumblr freakout for a bit.
posted by sparkletone at 10:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [8 favorites]


Did she prep her own leg?
Was it HANNIGRAM?
ZOMG why was I just screaming at my TV fir two men to murder-kiss. I don't know who I am any more.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 10:03 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


UNTIL NEXT TIME

WISHING YOU MURDER KISSES AND CANNIBAL DREAMS
posted by poffin boffin at 10:05 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]


Ugh that post credits scene.

I just can't even.

If there is never to be a season 4, I am ok with that. I am perfectly satisfied with how this ended.
posted by Windigo at 10:07 PM on August 27, 2015


Because I didn't say it explicitly: That Siouxsie song was fucking perfect.
posted by sparkletone at 10:07 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


ngl guys I thought that song was cheesy as fuck

It was just right.
posted by sparkletone at 10:10 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


I loved the song and how it was used.
posted by Windigo at 10:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


So when they said that thing about "best cliffhanger endings" do you think they were secretly laughing to themselves being like "GET IT A CLIFF DO YOU GET IT YOU'LL GET IT SOON"

When asked last season if Bryan was worried about the show getting a third season, he said he was pretty confident but then also, "I certainly hope so, in any case. We don't exactly land the plane." (emphasis mine)

DO NOT. EXACTLY. LAND. THE PLANE. I still haven't quite forgiven him for that one.
posted by sparkletone at 10:11 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]


some glorious operatic madness

We got quite a lot of that in the first half of the season tbh. Last season was Goldberg Variations slowed way, way, way the fuck down. This felt right for the scene and also was not a retread of what they'd done before. I kind of still need to go back and listen to it to understand the words? Both times I was too busy being OMG over what I was seeing.
posted by sparkletone at 10:13 PM on August 27, 2015


someone text the whelk and see if he survived

I don't think he's watched yet judging from twitter. He usually watches on Friday at some point. I'm more worried about Cleolinda on Saturday night (she's long since gone into social media lockdown to avoid spoilers).
posted by sparkletone at 10:15 PM on August 27, 2015


I'm really very upset about Bedillia. I did not want her to come to harm. She is my xanex goddess. That said, no one so wonderful should go to waste...
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 10:18 PM on August 27, 2015


A spoilery gif of that very last shot.

The look on her face was what killed me. That body language.
posted by Windigo at 10:20 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


That reduced body language.
posted by Windigo at 10:21 PM on August 27, 2015 [2 favorites]


By the way: I had cheap chinese food for dinner and finally just opened my fortune cookie (I was very very full). "Keep your feet on the ground even though friends flatter you."

TOO SOON, FORTUNE COOKIE. *pitches self off cliff*
posted by sparkletone at 10:21 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]


I have no words. Only the stunted mewls of a man seeking to become a creature worthy of the art he witnessed.
posted by 0bs01337 at 10:24 PM on August 27, 2015 [5 favorites]


Wait, so Siouxie Sioux wrote the song especially for the show, for the ending??
posted by Windigo at 10:24 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think the answer is not a full fourth season, but instead for Fuller to release a series of random untitled shorts that are basically the honeymooning MurderHusbands. No plots, just random short footage across various countries around the world with Hannibal and Will sampling the local cuisine.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:25 PM on August 27, 2015 [6 favorites]


Tumblr says these are the lyrics, FWIW:

[Oh, the skies, tumbling from your eyes
So, sublime, the chase to end all time
Seasons call and fall from grace and uniform,
anatomical and metaphysical]

Will: It really does look black in the moonlight.
Hannibal: See? This all I ever wanted for you, Will. For both of us.
Will: It’s beautiful.

[Oh, the die,
a blood red setting sun
rushing through my veins
burning up my skin,
I will survive, live and thrive
With this deadly kiss
Love crime
Love crime
I will survive, live and thrive
I will survive, I will survive
I will]
posted by Windigo at 10:26 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


please bear in mind that i'm drunk

It might be because I am also slightly plastered but: [Charles Foster Kane clapping GIF goes here]
posted by sparkletone at 10:29 PM on August 27, 2015 [1 favorite]


it contains this passage (yes really)

There's a Futurama episode that refers to one's butt as "nature's pocket." AN UNEXPLORED POCKET INDEED, BRYAN.
posted by sparkletone at 10:30 PM on August 27, 2015


No plots, just random short footage across various countries around the world with Hannibal and Will sampling the local cuisine.

Greg Nog should take this notion and run with it. It would be a crime to let those puppets go to waste.
posted by sparkletone at 10:33 PM on August 27, 2015 [3 favorites]


Greetings! I am a new Metafilter member but long-time Hannibal fan who just found this glorious website. What an episode! It is all just too much, but I am glad to have found you all…even if I am very late to the table.
posted by AdagioCantabile at 10:43 PM on August 27, 2015 [12 favorites]


HI. For some cannibal-y good times look at not just the fanfare threads, but also the threads we made on the blue before fanfare existed. The main site has different, generally looser rules about comments than fanfare so in addition to a shitload of links you can find things like our collective mental break down over last season's finale. You showed up right in time for this season's!
posted by sparkletone at 10:47 PM on August 27, 2015


But what happened to Winston. That's the closure we needed.
posted by Windigo at 10:48 PM on August 27, 2015 [4 favorites]


T H E D O G S A R E F I N E
posted by sparkletone at 11:01 PM on August 27, 2015 [8 favorites]


If you wanted to make a Hannibal post for the finale you might want to include Collecge Humors' What a if Hannibak Was A Bad Chef and the AV Club profile of Mefite's own Greg Nog's HAMIBAL Show and their Page To Screen on Manhunter and Red Dragon And possibly a follow up link to a direct video edit of both movies side by side done by me and then maybe fill it out tumblr links to recaps ( The weird deer ones are GREAT) that's to an index of them, and maybe the Sioux song will be on YouTube by Saturday to finish it out cause hey new song.

I mean if you wanted to do that , do not take this as a sign I have seen the episode or read anything prior to this cause I had a moment of weakness, saw that comment, and wanted to help and am now blacklisting tumblr and going away forever (until Saturday) goodbye friends I am gone
posted by The Whelk at 11:08 PM on August 27, 2015 [8 favorites]


There is also The Suits Are People Too , a massive attempt to replicate every character's outfits on a show strong budget geared toward ladies and it's kind of great, both as an aesthetic guide and a guide on what you can actually find for almost nothing

Hannibal would not want us in mourning, the show carefully did and said they avoided putting him in black funeral colors. Hannibal celebrates life and all it contains. To be in mourning for Hannibal means to celebrate floral silk ties and windowpane three peice suits, more colorful pocket squares,, more flannel sport coats in tartan patterns, more plates of beautifully layered meats, more haircuts and insane stripped coats like a goth umbrella. More wine with dinner and more animal shaped jewelry, Hannibal would want to you to have the very best.
posted by The Whelk at 11:22 PM on August 27, 2015 [9 favorites]


OH. My. God.

Siouxsie Sioux wrote a song with Brian Reitzell, who did all the amazing music for the show?

Oh Brian Fuller, I will watch you, whatever you do, forever.
posted by Catblack at 11:51 PM on August 27, 2015


I can finally post the spoiler picture I took at the set sale!

Knowing that led me to infer where the series was heading, but my god how glorious. I have no words right now so I'll be devouring all of yours.
posted by yellowbinder at 12:26 AM on August 28, 2015 [20 favorites]


All right look so I peek at this thread because I haven't had a chance to see it yet and this is what I wake up to.

I believe I called it last year - it was an actual plane - and this year, in which it was an actual cliff and an apparent Thelma and Louise scenario? Yes?

I'm going to have been right about them having faked their own deaths too, right? Right? If I understand it correctly that's even a direct Sherlock joke?

And Bedelia is sitting there dressed for dinner with no leg and she's on her own? And we don't know who did it? And it's possible she did it to herself as an inversion of the movie thing where Hannibal cuts off his hand and all that, except she's just sitting there waiting for them to turn up and they don't? Lol.
posted by tel3path at 1:06 AM on August 28, 2015


Because what a hilarious wheeze that would be - Bedelia sitting there like Miss Havisham, day after agonizing day
posted by tel3path at 1:10 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


WHEN THE COOKBOOK COMES OUT WE WILL HAVE COOK-ALONGS
posted by tel3path at 1:13 AM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm going to have been right about them having faked their own deaths too, right? Right? If I understand it correctly that's even a direct Sherlock joke?

Yeah, this is pretty much straight out of "The Final Problem," the supposedly last short story Arthur Conan Doyle wrote about Sherlock Holmes, where Holmes ends up taking out his arch enemy Moriarty by jumping off a cliff/down a waterfall and bringing Moriarty with him. (A version of this comes up in BBC Sherlock, but the Hannibal version is much more in line with the original story.)

Although ACD claimed he meant to kill off Holmes for good, he ended up bringing him back to life, with the basically hand wave-y explanation that Holmes managed to survive the fall.
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:18 AM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


So I was right Will was faking his own death for Good? He has not gone Full Dark?


Then surely they have run off to argentina together for Good and Will is going to brainwash Hannibal for Good and they will have lots and lots of sex for Good, so Good that Hannibal will forget all about this nasty murdering business
posted by tel3path at 1:27 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Incoherent live notes follow:

Augh just starting oh no Reba oh no

Hannibal pinches out a candle when Will shows up in the chapel. Prayer answered?

Will's like "wait only Hannibal's only allowed to kidnap me and do horrible things to me no"

I think Dolarhyde is finding Will more sympathetic than he thought he would, but he's not the one driving that encounter.

(Damn are Zeller & Price perfectly choreographed). And now Hannibal was in white and Will's dressed (well-dressed and well-coifed, even) in all black, that seems unlikely to be a good sign.

Oh man Bedelia does not approve even a little. Wow. It's sort of amazing to see Will calm and measured and in control and her losing it. (Wait, now Will is pathological? Who was advocating crushing birds just recently?! Look on your works, ye mighty...)

Chilton speaking truth. And Alana's suits are getting darker too... And speaking of Faustian bargains.

Yes Will is acting totally trustworthy no worries guys this has 0 chance of backfiring. That almost gleeful look he's got in the cell clearly portends Things Going As Planned.

Number one thing Alana learned from Mizumono: Get out while the getting's good.

Helpless flailing. I... am not sure how many corpses Jack expected, but. Also, once again, everyone has seriously underestimated Will (except Hannibal.)

I'm not sure "compassion" is the right noun there, Hannibal; perhaps you meant "passion"? Also, "friend"???

And now Hannibal has a stomach wound too. And seriously Will just can't keep his shirts unbloodied - oh yeah, this is definitely a murder scene as consummation*, followed (as I rather assume Tumblr will explode over) by Will actually reaching for Hannibal. Poor Francis almost comes off as a naïf at the end there; there's no way he can win when caught up in Hannibal & Will's convoluted power games.

?????!!!!!

...all dressed up and nowhere to go holy shit Bedelia wut.

*cough cough cough
You were 100% right!

Also 100% correct: this!

That reduced body language.
I mean, Bedelia, you're practical, but you didn't have to resign yourself to being the second-to-last bride of Bluebeard! The fork is gonna be of limited use if you can't run...

But anyway I think I'm reminded of Death talking to Dream in Sandman: "I have made all the preparations necessary." "Hmph. You've been making them for _ages_. You just didn't let yourself know that was what you were doing." "If you say so." It's going to be interesting to go back and try to figure out where Will and/or Hannibal were consciously running a long con vs. unconsciously vs. improvising entirely. Or, honestly, in both their cases, running several contradictory schemes... Yes yes I am going to be a sucker for American Gods too shut up. If that gets canceled too I am going to know for sure that the problem with Kids These Days is insufficient appreciation for goth aesthetics. Among other things. That ending. With a fucking Siouxsie Sioux song! THAT ENDING.
posted by ubersturm at 3:17 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


I don't know if I've ever wept over something because of it's perfect grotesque beauty before. So there's that.
posted by crossoverman at 3:25 AM on August 28, 2015 [5 favorites]


So I was right Will was faking his own death for Good? He has not gone Full Dark?

Basically, yes. If I take my own read on the post-credits bit as basically correct: I don't think his intent was to fake his own death. I think his intent was to take out Hannibal even if it cost him his own life. He and Hannibal were both pretty badly injured from the fight with Dolarhyde already before they went over the cliff. BUT, I definitely think his intent there was Good™.

The main indication that they survived is the two place settings at Bedelia's dining table, so they won't have fooled her at least. We can probably still read Will's intentions as basically good, albeit heavily compromised, if we go with my notion that Bedelia did what she did to herself anticipatorily. But we'll see.

I absolutely cannot wait to see what stuff comes out of live twet on Saturday and post-season interviews. I'm so, so, so hoping Bryan does a nice long chat on the Kevin Pollack show or some such, since there hasn't been too much in the way of post-mortems this season that I'm aware of.

HAMIBAL IS DEAD. LONG LIVE HAMIBAL.
posted by sparkletone at 3:29 AM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


I joked last thread about the final shot involving the Wendigo and Ravenstag being friends.

I now think the flash back to Will and Hannibal going over the cliff but living should be the two tipping over and falling out of sight as they do on the show... Only to have the Ravenstag fly back up into view flapping majestic black wings, the Wendigo upon his back with a misshapen hand in the air in celebration...
posted by sparkletone at 3:34 AM on August 28, 2015


Yes yes I am going to be a sucker for American Gods too shut up.

I'm quite looking forward to it. The book has diminished ever so slightly in my head over time, but only just. Bryan mentioned at SDCC that American Gods will be by a significant margin the biggest budget thing he's ever worked on. Like I believe the exact quote is that he and his co-exec. wrote the first one and Starz loved it so they went back and figured out how much they felt they needed per episode in terms of money to make the show as they saw it and Starz said, "Yeah, cool, great. And we're gonna give you an extra million on top of that per epiosde."

Rather than doing it as a separate thing, there's a part of me that hopes they find a way to weave stuff from Anansi Boys into the show as well, though maybe there won't be room for that. Bryan seemed pretty excited about working on it.

And if it's a big hit, and Mads continues to rise in stature the way it looks like he might, I'd love that to be turned into momentum to revisit this show in one form or another. We shall see!
posted by sparkletone at 3:45 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Overall, the Hannibal people I follow on tumblr seemed to have loved the finale by and large. bonearenaofmyskull seems to agree with my read about Bedelia prepping herself as a meal and that this indicates Will and Hannibal survive.

One thing I didn't think of at all and neither did they that was suggested by someone submitting an ask: The possibility that a healed up Chilton could be a new antagonist for the show, hell bent on revenge. That would be quite a thing to watch. And could even lead to a fourth maiming!
posted by sparkletone at 4:00 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


I don't think Bedelia prepped herself. It's just not her character style. She's too goddamned wily to just roll over like that, she fought too hard every step of the way.

That's ignoring the impracticality of removing your own leg, prepping it, setting that table and dressing. Not even a crutch in sight.

And didn't they show a flash of Hannibal's hands in that final scene?

I'm very curious as to reasons why you think Bedelia did herself up like that.
posted by Windigo at 4:28 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also if Bedelia did herself up like that, Hannibal's survival may just be a paranoid assumption of Bedelia.
posted by Windigo at 4:29 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


And didn't they show a flash of Hannibal's hands in that final scene?

Noooopeeeeeee. That's very clearly her hand. She picks up the fork and then places it in her lap. When it cuts away from the closeup of the hand, you can see her putting her hand in her lap. Someone's in for a stabbin'.

So there are two possible readings: Will and Hannibal survived, have subdued her, mutilated her and now it's dinner time. For some reason Hannibal's decided that she deserves the ol' Gideon treatment. Making up for lost time given that he pretty clearly was toying with the thought of eating her in Europe. The other reading is that she set herself up that way on the assumption that it would lead either to survival for herself or at least a chance to harm Hannibal in some way. I don't like the former reading because it takes the smartest character on the show and reduces her to someone much more fallible than we've seen her to be. Someone that's doomed no matter how smart she is when previously every time she's seemed cornered, she's had an out. This is a pretty desperate out, but I think the leg thing is her out.

I can definitely see it as rolling over if it were any other character. I don't think that's the case here. She's accepted her probable doom and is doing this on her own terms. "If this is to be my fate no matter what, I will still be in control of how exactly it goes down." I am assuming given Bedelia's intelligence that she wouldn't have done this if she wasn't absolutely goddam sure that Will and Hannibal survived and would be calling on her soon (if they're not already elsewhere in the house). If she felt she could flee and reasonably expect to survive, she would (hell, she already did once). For all the reasons in the world it would be stupid to expect the authorities to be able to protect her (hell, those idiots might still believe Will and Hannibal actually died at the cliff house).

It's the reading that makes the most sense to me. "Would Bedelia be a victim in the end, or would our astounding Ice Queen make a terrible sacrifice to keep the possibility of survival going?" ... I choose the latter at least at this point.

Some of that is speculation, of course, and I'm curious to see if Bryan indicates things one way or the other in terms of the intended reading. That's just how I'm taking it off the two viewings I've done so far.

As for the practicality... lol what show have you been watching.

Side note: Without giving details, Janice Poon said on twitter tonight she considered it an honor that the last thing in the show was one of her cooking displays. I thought it was fitting too. I honestly would've thought it was a great and fitting stinger even if it hadn't been Bedelia in her therapy room. If it had just been the table with the display somewhere with no indication of whose leg it was.
posted by sparkletone at 4:44 AM on August 28, 2015 [6 favorites]


Haha the suggestion that it wasn't "practical" was very tongue in cheek on my end.
posted by Windigo at 4:59 AM on August 28, 2015


Speculating on things not seen: most likely she poisoned herself and/or her leg in some way so as to take him/them out when they ate it.

I think it's 100% in character for Bedelia to want to be in control. Actually, if this was her doing that tells us what her goal in life actually is - to be in control, to be the smartest character on the show. It's also consistent with one of the Bluebeard stories and her statement about wanting to be Bluebeard's last wife.

So I can see Hannibal going "oh how thoughtful of you Bedelia but" seamless Will finishing the sentence "nah son we've read Bluebeard and we're not eating that"
posted by tel3path at 5:33 AM on August 28, 2015 [6 favorites]


I suppose I feel the opposite - that if Bedelia did it to herself I feel like she lost, lost herself as much as she lost to Hannibal. I feel if she did it to herself that makes her a victim in a way Hannibal alone could never reduce her to.

Her body language screams "resolve" which yes, she would be resolved and fierce either way. But I find it less desperate that she knows she lost, finally, fair and square, and is going to side-eye the fuck out of the proceedings. Also, I simply find it a more scary ending, the monster winning in the end.
posted by Windigo at 5:50 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


And I have seen the stills and I notice that: Alana is wearing the combination of black and white checks plus red which ALWAYS signifies a new game being set up.

To her left, Margot is wearing a persian LAMB coat and carrying a SNAKEskin bag and both of them are wearing KID gloves

That Margot walks on Alana's left is an indication of her relative status. Margot is the wife/mother and also has lower status than Alana, though it's probably a matter of nuance (she's definitely better off than she was). That would be consistent with the way Alana spoke earlier "good for me" "he's my son, I carried him" - mostly informational, but with just a nuance of "I'm better".
posted by tel3path at 5:59 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also that little pilot jacket that mini Verger is wearing it's adorable but kinda reminds me of the Lindbergh baby
posted by tel3path at 6:02 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Bedelia was dressed like Clarice was in her drugged dinner scene.
posted by Windigo at 6:07 AM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


HOLY SHIT I HAD NO IDEA THAT WAS SIOUXSIE SIOUX BUT THAT EXPLAINS WHY I LOVED IT SO MUCH

AAGGGHHHH SHE IS SO GOOD
posted by Greg Nog at 6:09 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


If she's poisoned herself and is waiting for that kind of party with her murder husbands, tee hee.
posted by tel3path at 6:12 AM on August 28, 2015


I suppose I feel the opposite - that if Bedelia did it to herself I feel like she lost, lost herself as much as she lost to Hannibal. I feel if she did it to herself that makes her a victim in a way Hannibal alone could never reduce her to.

Barring nudging from Bryan one way or the other, this is probably going to be the subject of debate for quite some time.
posted by sparkletone at 6:17 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


I just don't buy that Bedelia thinks that her best shot of survival is to explore autocannibalism on her own terms.
posted by Windigo at 6:18 AM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


(and that she is going to take down two men using only a fork when she's drugged and missing a leg)

(poison WOULD be the only remote way this would be a plan even remotely feasible)

(would Hannibal and Will be that dumb though? would they not suspect?)
posted by Windigo at 6:20 AM on August 28, 2015


More I think about it, more I wish there was no stinger.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:25 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think the stinger was needed. I mean, I wouldn't RIOT if it was left out, but it felt right that there was something.

I think maybe you (plural) would've been happier with the more ambiguous one I suggested above where you see the table setting but little to no indication of whose leg or where it is.
posted by sparkletone at 6:34 AM on August 28, 2015


I could probably go with the table setting and no idea about whose leg it was, but...something about going to the point where Will drags them over a cliff and then retracting that, saying oh well, this whole plunge into the rocky Atlantic doesn't really make a difference...I don't think it works for me.
posted by PussKillian at 6:36 AM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm also trying to figure out how I feel about the compressed storytelling and the results it had on Molly and Reba.
posted by PussKillian at 6:37 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh Jack, you ridiculous man. What did you think was going to happen?

When I saw Janice Poon's name in the credits I was thinking what a shame it was that we didn't get to see more of her amazing work this season when all of a sudden BAM leg on the menu. Bedelia, always trying to stay that one step ahead.

I loved the Siouxsie song. It was perfect, just perfect. Will and Hannibal, double teaming in a shower of gore and horror; such a love crime. If this is the end then what an end but I'm still hoping for more.
posted by h00py at 6:50 AM on August 28, 2015


So the end of the show is basically that the abuse victim goes back to his abusive ex? (Well, I mean, the whole "FBI culture is abusive" reading means that was the whole second half of the season already, but still....)
posted by kewb at 7:02 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, looks like we'll be exploring codependency and why it doesn't work in season 4, when Will founds the first chapter of Serial Killers Anonymous.
posted by tel3path at 7:47 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Where Hannibal is concerned, it's basically impossible not to be a victim. There is no clever move you can make that will get you out of it.
posted by tel3path at 7:49 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


I love how the last shot of Jack Crawford is the face of a man whose career is over!
posted by Catblack at 7:52 AM on August 28, 2015 [6 favorites]


Have we ever seen a Crawford-led investigation that caused fewer deaths than the killer under investigation? Firing Jack would dramatically reduce the death rate all by itself.
posted by tel3path at 7:56 AM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


So the end of the show is basically that the abuse victim goes back to his abusive ex?

I would have a problem with this but the show goes to fairly extreme lengths to make clear how unhealthy this is and what a toll it takes on Will even to that last end. Sure, the abuse victim goes back to his abusive ex. They even share a moment. He also then immediately drags them both off a cliff rather than have it continue. Even the show leaving a (fascinating, bizarre) opening for their survival in the stinger doesn't obviate that. And knowing the show, we'd rightly expect that to be addressed and then some whenever/however it picks up later.
posted by sparkletone at 8:29 AM on August 28, 2015 [6 favorites]


I love how the last shot of Jack Crawford is the face of a man whose career is over!

I spent large portions of the pre-INFINITE DREAD portions of the episode wondering just how Kade would react to all this (and not for the first time in this arc). It's not relevant to the story they're telling so of course we don't, but I wish we could've seen it.
posted by sparkletone at 8:30 AM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh Brian Fuller, I will watch you, whatever you do, forever.

i know what you MEAN but i really love how threatening this sounds
posted by poffin boffin at 8:56 AM on August 28, 2015 [9 favorites]


hey so remember how GJH kept saying "see? see?" and then Hannibal said that exact same thing after they finally killed together

augh
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:09 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Have we ever seen a Crawford-led investigation that caused fewer deaths than the killer under investigation? Firing Jack would dramatically reduce the death rate all by itself.

There's Bee-Lady/Katherine Pimms, which is the only case we see in which Jack doesn't (and can't) use Will and/or Hannibal as his profilers and investigators; it seems likely she'd have kept on doing her thing with future patients if they hadn't intervened. And since the investigation doesn't involve Will and/or Hannibal, the case can't be treated as a contributing factor in their later actions.

Come to think of it, have we ever seen *any* investigation of a killer on this show, other than that one, that didn't somehow just make things worse? After all, where Hannibal is concerned, it's virtually impossible not to be a victim. Even the abusive characters seem to get their turn; let's hope the show is scary and effective because its world is at least a little worse than ours, and not because it's just an especially vivid reflection.
"Sounds a bit silly till you come to look into it well. Justice it means but it's everybody eating everyone else. That's what life is after all." -- James Joyce, Ulysses
posted by kewb at 9:10 AM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


The crackvids have begun. That one is a particularly inspired combination of a Game Grumps video involving a famously terrible Sonic game and ... welp.

I love it so much
posted by sparkletone at 9:12 AM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


If anyone comes across a video clip of Will saying "This is my becoming" please give me a heads up. I usually try to avoid torrents because I'm terrified of accidentally downloading a computer virus and destroying my laptop.

Also, I only need that 5 second clip. It's for my crackvid art project.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:30 AM on August 28, 2015


Never mind, I'm an idiot. It's totally in the trailer!
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:33 AM on August 28, 2015


So when it came time to do the Buffalo Bill storyline, it was going to be Chilton building himself a Hannibal suit, right? All that talk about wanting to take his skin...
posted by PussKillian at 11:43 AM on August 28, 2015 [9 favorites]


This m
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:53 AM on August 28, 2015


I don't actually think Will was intending to fake his and Hannibal's death. I think he truly meant for both of them to die. After all, the two of them could have come up with way better ways to do a faked death thing. Tumbling over a cliff where no one is watching is not really a great way of going about that. However, I think Fuller et al set this up so that, assuming we do get some version of a fourth season, we'll find out that despite Will's best effort, they managed to survive in the grand tradition of Holmes's Reichenbach fall.

Also, as far as the post credits scene, it's clearly up for interpretation, but my first read on it is that Bedelia's dinner party for one (or three) is happening at the same time as Will and Hannibal taking the fall over the cliff. I think she figured that after Will and Hannibal had their reunion, they would come for her next, and this is the terms that she's decided to set for their meeting.
posted by litera scripta manet at 11:58 AM on August 28, 2015 [5 favorites]


I just don't see Bedelia cutting off her own leg when she was so controlled and on top of her shit before.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:59 AM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


But it's consistent with her decision to go with Hannibal rather than let him kidnap her.

Also with offline remarks that GA wishes that whatever dish Hannibal would make of her, it'd be something so rich he'd choke on it and die.

And with her expressed wish to be Bluebeard's last wife.

And with her previous tactic of drugging herself to back up her brainwashing story.

And with Will's decision that the fight to the death will include Hannibal's death and his own.
posted by tel3path at 12:07 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


But she successfully escaped him twice, why throw herself under the bus like this now?

Also: honestly, are Jack and Alana the dumbest humans ever born? In what universe did they think this could end in any other way?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:08 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hannigram falling off a cliff would seem to benefit them more than not.

BUT YOU KNOW I HAVEN'T SEEN IT YET SO I AM TALKING OUT OF MY POSTERIOR.
posted by tel3path at 12:13 PM on August 28, 2015


STOP READING THE THREAD TEL3PATH YOU FOOL

.
.
.
.
.
.
I didn't get the impression that either of them actually wanted the fake escape to become a real escape.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:16 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


So, um, yeah, I made a video to commemorate the season finale. And it's completely ridiculous. Here it is: I will go down with this ship.

I DON'T KNOW WHY I MADE THIS IT JUST SORT OF HAPPENED

Incidentally, it's really hard to find video footage of Hugh Dancy at the beach, so I had to make do with what I could find.

Also there were some issues with it getting out of sync when I uploaded it from imovie and some of the images are pretty crappy quality, but I already spent way too much time on this as it is, so I'm just leaving it be.
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:58 PM on August 28, 2015 [5 favorites]


So I guess it's a bible thing but I ONLY associate "no greater love hath man than to lay down his life for his friend" with Disney's Jungle Book. Kinda took me out of the moment for a sec
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:36 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


i just

COME ON YOU GUYS

there is no universe in which bedelia CUT OFF HER OWN LEG AND COOKED IT UP ALL FANCY ALL BY HER ONESIES

for fuck's sake
posted by poffin boffin at 2:50 PM on August 28, 2015 [14 favorites]


ok unless it's the universe in which dickie arms actually had real dragon wings that he used to fly
posted by poffin boffin at 2:51 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


You are right, but I will say that if anyone COULD do that, it would be someone who had murder apprenticed for Hannibal the Murder Wizard.

My concern is more about how do you cook a whole leg. I don't think I could fit a leg in my oven or my grill. Did someone have to take the leg to a restaurant kitchen? Dig a big fire pit in the backyard?
posted by Stacey at 3:04 PM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


FOR REALS and also human legs are like what, 1/2 of your bodyweight together? More? So she's hopping on one foot, on MASSIVE quantities of painkillers, she can't use any kind of prosthetic device because the wound is so fresh, maybe she has a crutch? lol

and then she's hauling this 30lb leg out to a backyard fire pit? or lifting it inside a huge roasting pan into an unusually large oven in her own kitchen? i can't even make a cup of tea after banging my elbow on the counter.

lbr here i love bedelia but she is no stephen maturin. she did not perform massive serious complicated surgery upon herself while conscious. disregarding for a moment the hilarious implausibility of this for just a moment, please explain how she gave herself the epidural.
posted by poffin boffin at 3:18 PM on August 28, 2015 [6 favorites]


ON THE OTHER HAND if abel gideon was somehow still alive....

gasp
posted by poffin boffin at 3:19 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's true that Hannibal has a history of *not* killing certain people others think are dead, but wouldn't Abel be down to having to do the surgery with his lips and cock ring by now?
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:30 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


I just keep asking my partner about this leg thing - like, what if I cooked it trussed up bent double, would that work? And he is so used to me and this show by now that he's just like, okay, sure, let's idly speculate about the preparation of cannibal feasts. Poor boy. But we feel that it would be hard to untruss and straighten the leg later without it falling apart. Although those wing-y things could hide a multitude of presentation sins.
posted by Stacey at 3:54 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


If I had to bet I would say it wasn't Will or Hannibal or Bedelia, but rather someone who really has it in for one or all of those three characters.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:13 PM on August 28, 2015


Also, in the 'not Bedelia' camp, did you guys not think she looked super terrified? How does that jibe with her doing it herself?
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:16 PM on August 28, 2015


Actually the more I think about it the more I like the Chilton theory, even though it is utterly insane. 'Compulsive imitation' right? And just imagine Raul E as a main bad guy. It would totally be worth the fact that on the surface it's a totally ridiculous idea
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:18 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Then season 5 is all three of them locked up together like OITNB
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:19 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


I would love for it to be Chilton but I like the Chilton as Buffalo Bill theory from earlier SO MUCH MORE.

like honestly i can't think of anyone other than abel who would have both the inclination and the medical expertise. unless something REALLY wacky happened to price and zeller.

omg or the REVENGE OF BEVERLY KATZ, glorious reanimated accordion vampire
posted by poffin boffin at 4:23 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also, in the 'not Bedelia' camp, did you guys not think she looked super terrified? How does that jibe with her doing it herself?

I don't know, re-watching that scene, she doesn't exactly look super terrified to me. It sort of me reminds me of how she looked when she was all drugged up and doing her "Bedelia who? I'm Lydia Fell" thing. But it also looks like she's breathlessly waiting for something (or someone). Hopefully it will be a little clearer when I can re-watch the whole thing in a higher quality format on Saturday.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:31 PM on August 28, 2015


She looks both scared and drugged to me, and then she slips the fork into her lap, which suggests that at the very least, she may put a few holes in somebody before she goes down.
posted by PussKillian at 4:36 PM on August 28, 2015


Of course, realistically, she would have needed some help. I know Hannibal was a psychiatrist who also had been a surgeon, but I don't know that Bedelia has had any training beyond med school plus Hannibal's tutelage. It can't be easy sawing off someone's leg (let alone your own leg) without killing the person, especially since you'd have to make sure they don't bleed out via several of the major arteries that run through the leg. Not to mention the fact that if you're drugged up enough to be able to handle sawing off your own leg, you're not going to be lucid enough to actually do it successfully.

I still don't think that necessarily means that Hannibal was the one responsible for this.

Leaving aside the logistics issue, I could see her doing this with the intent to poison Hannibal, as someone mentioned upthread. Or maybe this is some weird power play? Like, he can't cook me and eat me if I do it first? Or maybe this is her way of competing with Will for Hannibal's attention, considering her comment about preferring to be the last of Bluebeard's wives comment?

I don't know. None of these possibilities really feel satisfying to me. I would have preferred it if they didn't pan down to show us her missing leg, so that the issue of whose leg was cooked would be more ambiguous.

Or, in a more perfect world, the final scene would be Hannibal and Will hand in hand, maybe shirtless, running off into the wilderness together.

Or making out.

Or having sex.

Or all of the above.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:39 PM on August 28, 2015


ok so FOR SCIENCE i just looked up gillian anderson on imdb and she is the same height as me. she looks like she weighs maybe 15-20lbs less but even allowing for my hella buff quads, i could not fit my leg inside my oven, even bent to the full extreme of heel against butt cheek, much less allowing for a roasting pan. HOWEVER, my stove is a really small shitty apartment one and not a fancypants gourmet viking 8 burner whatever.

as a compromise, since my dedication to hannibal does not extend to me going to the viking showroom and asking if i could please try to fit my leg inside a display oven, when i get back uptown to my cousin's house i will see if the fancy large oven which is to be installed in the next door neighbor's kitchen renovation is still in the hallway by the elevators and if so i will jam my leg in there.

my sock is dirty now
posted by poffin boffin at 4:39 PM on August 28, 2015 [13 favorites]


are there any shots of her kitchen from the time hannibal brought dinner over? i'm deeply invested in the size of her oven now, surprisingly to no one.
posted by poffin boffin at 4:42 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also, in the 'not Bedelia' camp, did you guys not think she looked super terrified? How does that jibe with her doing it herself?

She looked drugged, and scared, and resolved....and strangely....expectant? And also strangely....avid?

I read the scene as Hannibal and Will are elsewhere in the house, and will soon be joining her for dinner. And she's ready for them, ready for her becoming.
posted by Windigo at 4:49 PM on August 28, 2015 [6 favorites]


are there any shots of her kitchen from the time hannibal brought dinner over? i'm deeply invested in the size of her oven now, surprisingly to no one.

Haven't checked that yet, but sadly the brief interrogation of her by Jack in her kitchen in S01E12 does not include shots of the major appliances. Bedelia appears to use the kitchen only for wine drinking and an impressive wall herb garden.
posted by figurant at 4:51 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


I thought the wall herb garden was at Hannibal's house?
posted by poffin boffin at 4:59 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm guessing, if you were preparing a leg to eat, you might go ahead and get rid of the knee part, since it's sort of in the way. There's not much meat around there anyway. (Maybe you could use it to make stock or something, like you do with chicken carcasses and other left over meaty parts). Re-watching the scene, it seems like part of the upper leg is included, but the way it's wrapped up on the table makes me think you could pretty easily disguise the fact that it may in fact be in one or more pieces.

Gillian Anderson is listed as being 5'3", so I'm about an inch shorter than her, and I could easily fit my lower leg (below the knee) in my oven, especially without the foot attached. I would say I have a pretty standard full sized oven.

So my vote is that whoever cooked up her leg probably cut off the knee and foot part, and then cooked the calf part and thigh part separately, and then used that fancy wrapping to make it look like it's all one piece.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:00 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Actually, if we assume that they chopped off her foot at the bony part of her ankle, I think you could probably fit most of a leg in there without dissecting it further. I tried it again, and I was able to get my entire foot, ankle, lower leg, knee, and about a third of my thigh in there, although I had to put my leg in so that it was situated diagonally in the oven. So if you cut off the foot at about the ankle bone, I would say you could get at least the whole lower leg plus the lower half of the thigh in there.

Now, if you completely fold the leg so that the heel is at butt level, then that would fit in my oven no problem. Even with a roasting pan I think it would be totally doable, as long as you took out one of the oven racks.

Of course, it's still an approximation, because I'm about an inch shorter than Gillian Anderson, but I'm very short waisted and so I have proportionally longer legs, which means I think my leg is probably a decent proxy for hers. Also, she's thinner than I am, but not by a crazy amount, and if anything, her being thinner would just make it easier to get the leg in there.

Incidentally, it is quite a challenge to get your leg in an oven when it's still attached to your body. I had to sit on a rolling desk chair so that I could be at the right angle without sitting on the oven door since I would really hate to try to explain to my landlord about how I broke the oven door to test out a theory about a cannibal show FOR SCIENCE.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:15 PM on August 28, 2015 [6 favorites]


Y'know, when I met Gillian Anderson (yes, you may touch the hem of my garment etc) I was amazed by how absolutely tiny she is, but it never occurred to me to think about how best to joint her.
posted by sobarel at 5:18 PM on August 28, 2015 [25 favorites]


Yes, consider the glamorous life of a film star as rabid fans gleefully compare notes about exactly how to section your body so as to fit in their ovens. And you didn't even have a part in Hansel & Gretel.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:26 PM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


This is very amusing, this oven discussion, but it was obvious from the staging that Bedelia did not arrange that scene. If it helps, imagine Will and Hannibal having a quick snog in the kitchen before joining her.
posted by carsonb at 5:32 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also, the banana leaves would be good cover if it was sectioned, but their usage also says "pit roast" to me.
posted by carsonb at 5:34 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


So if you do a google search for "pit roast" the second link is to urban dictionary, which would give your comment a very different meaning.

But yeah, looking at google images of pit roasts (THE COOKING KIND), I could see how that would fit. It also seems like it would account for the nice crispy roasted appearance of the leg on the table.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:40 PM on August 28, 2015


haven't read the thread yet but just finished watching so I wanted to ctrl-end down here for a sec just to say aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, &c.
posted by sparklemotion at 5:42 PM on August 28, 2015


Also, the pit roast thing would probably work perfectly with the leg since you wouldn't have to worry about sticking a metal pole in there. You could probably just use the leg bone as the "skewer," allowing you to rotate the leg to get it evenly crispy on all sides.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:43 PM on August 28, 2015


I tried to livestream the ep last night but I guess the Fates (and my old laptop) were against me because the only part I saw was Bedelia sitting at that table in that black, plunging neckline (SWOON!) and now, after reading all this, I have so much to look forward to!

I've loved dorking out with ya'll over this show. I never want it to end!

/only an inch taller than GA so off to stick my leg in my oven and see how it fits
posted by blessedlyndie at 5:45 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


This is very amusing, this oven discussion, but it was obvious from the staging that Bedelia did not arrange that scene.

well yeah, that was exactly my point! it is beyond even the usual hilarious hannibal levels of superhuman credulity to imagine that she did it on her own.
posted by poffin boffin at 5:48 PM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


also for science you must at least put your toe in the toaster
posted by poffin boffin at 5:48 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh dang Urban Dictionary is the worst. That was always called "Chinese handcuffs" in my Chasing Amy-watching circle of friends.
posted by carsonb at 5:48 PM on August 28, 2015


What? Sticking your toe in the toaster?!?
posted by blessedlyndie at 5:56 PM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


I also feel like it says something terrible about google that the urban dictionary definition was the second thing that came up in that search.

(I actually totally recognized what a pit roasting (NOT in the urban dictionary sense) was once I saw pictures of it; I just don't know that I knew exactly what it was called.)

And no, before you ask, I'm not going to go build a makeshift pit roast in my backyard to test out whether I could in fact pit roast my own leg.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:56 PM on August 28, 2015


And no, before you ask, I'm not going to go build a makeshift pit roast in my backyard to test out whether I could in fact pit roast my own leg.

Pfft. What really needs to happen to verify is moving to Argentina, finding a swanky beach shack sleeps three (or 2.5, as it were), and then building and testing a spit/pit roast for your therapist.
posted by carsonb at 5:58 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


What? Sticking your toe in the toaster?!?

Didn't you see the post post-credits scene where they were all sitting around the hearth, making smores and munching on toasted toes?
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:03 PM on August 28, 2015


Well yeah, that was exactly my point! it is beyond even the usual hilarious hannibal levels of superhuman credulity to imagine that she did it on her own.

Also, it serves no purpose in my mind. I totally buy that she'd want to go out on her own terms, but she's such a fighter, always looking out for no 1. Setting up the scenario gives her absolutely no upper hand, she's just handing herself over. I see no reason why offering herself up would make Hannibal more inclined to spare her life. The hiding of the fork in her lap is a last act, IMO. She's going....to prick Hannibal? No, it's almost like a fetish, something ultimately useless to cling to so as to give her strength for the dinner she's about to endure. I imagine there's a sense of relief mixed in there as well, as the expectancy of "will he or won't he" is over. I think not knowing if/when he'd come for her was in some ways more torturous than the reality of being eaten.
posted by Windigo at 6:03 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think not knowing if/when he'd come for her was in some ways more torturous than the reality of being eaten.

I agree, but couldn't that also explain why she might have gone ahead and set this up (with help, of course), in the anticipation of Hannibal showing up at her door? If that were the case, I do think it's likely that she decided to poison the meat. Like, she may get taken out, but she's going to take the murder husbands with her, which would very neatly reflect what Will tried to do with the whole jumping off a cliff thing.

But yeah, I guess you guys are right. Hannibal and Will are probably off in the kitchen having a quick makeout session in the kitchen before sitting down at the table.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:09 PM on August 28, 2015


it is beyond even the usual hilarious hannibal levels of superhuman credulity

While we're talking about straining the limits of even very generous suspension of disbelief:

So Hannibal is shot in the stomach, hemorrhaging blood for awhile, then Will gets stabbed in the face and the shoulder, they all get beaten up some more, and then Will and Hannibal fall off a cliff, into the ocean, and they're supposed to have survived that?

I mean, I get that this is in the grand Holmes-ian tradition of improbably surviving falling off of cliffs, but it's definitely pretty far fetched, even by that standard.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:13 PM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


Also, do you think Hannibal has, like, sharpened his front teeth or something? Because it seems like it would be really hard to tear out someone's throat with just regular old human teeth. (I know Dolarhyde rips off Chilton's lips, but I think he was using that special teeth set he had made, and presumably his dragon teeth were designed for tearing off flesh.)
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:18 PM on August 28, 2015


I am NOT testing that out for you all.

I mean, not unless maybe my neighbor who hates me comes out to the back yard again tomorrow to scold me about my tree shading her precious flowerbed. Then I might be tempted to try. For science.
posted by Stacey at 6:22 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


I will go down with this ship.

In as much as the goal of all such videos is to make me laugh like an idiot: This is good.

I will get back to APPARENTLY HAVING TO FIGHT YOU ALL about what's going on in the stinger tomorrow. DAMMIT.
posted by sparkletone at 6:23 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


I guess you do hear about people biting through their own tongue, but I think tongue is easier to bite through than skin.

I tried biting down on my arm, and I could definitely make some noticeable teeth marks when I bit down rather hard, but I don't think I would be able to break the skin, although maybe I just wasn't trying hard enough.

And no, I'm not going to try biting any harder than I already did. It's already going to be awkward enough if I end up with semi-circle bruises all over my forearms.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:24 PM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hm, although I guess adrenaline plus Mads Mikkelsen's strong jaws (or at least they look quite strong) could help.

Okay, I should probably stop now. I think I've probably taken this whole "think like a cannibal" thing a little too far.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:28 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Per twitter, Whelk should be in here any minute. Let's not let him find us all contorted into odd positions with our legs in ovens, gnawing on each other's necks. I mean, we're probably gonna get to that point of Hannibal withdrawal, but let's try to make it a week or two first.
posted by Stacey at 6:29 PM on August 28, 2015 [7 favorites]


Currently replaying the embrace and playing this on a loop do not follow me friends I am beyond your reach now.
posted by The Whelk at 6:38 PM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


Guys guys the ship went down with us.
posted by The Whelk at 6:39 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


...well, now I know what my second fanvid will be set to.
posted by Stacey at 6:40 PM on August 28, 2015


(sO and I actually had to pause the episode halfway in so we could stick our heads out the window and shake it off, I actually made involuntary hysterical laughter.)
posted by The Whelk at 6:41 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


As soon as the swoony goth romance song started my jaw DROPPED AND SO AND I LOOKED AT EACH ITHER FOR A HALF SECOND JUST TO CONFIRM TO EACH OTHER THAT IT WAS H A P P E N I N G
posted by The Whelk at 6:42 PM on August 28, 2015 [3 favorites]


friends I am beyond your reach now.

I mean, they came about as close as I've ever seen two men on network television come without actually brushing lips together. Was that enough, The Whelk?
posted by carsonb at 6:43 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


(the Shondra Rhimes shows have lots of network dude kissing? Right? Did I just fill those in?)

Anyway yes I ...I need to fan myself and get a cigarette
posted by The Whelk at 6:45 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


(the Shondra Rhimes shows have lots of network dude kissing? Right? Did I just fill those in?)

I'm embarrassed to admit that I've suffered through most of the first 9 seasons of Grey's Anatomy, and most of the same sex action was woman-on-woman. I think there was like, one episode where two men (a patient and his boyfriend) kissed, but I'm not even entirely sure that I'm not making that up.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:55 PM on August 28, 2015


Ok, thread is read and I've poured myself another drink so let's discuss.

I think that:

Will absolutely tried to kill them both. He loves Hannibal. He loves how killing makes him feel. But Will Graham is a Good Man™. He cannot allow the evil that is Hannibal, or the evil that resides within himself, or the amplified killing power of evil that is Hannigram out into the world. Unlike Francis, he wouldn't be able to control the dragon, so he took his chance when he could, but not before first getting a taste of what he had denied himself for so long.

Hannibal cooked Bedelia's leg. He has brainwashed Will into at least being a willing observer (if not participant), so dinner will be the 3 of them. Note the oysters in front of Bedelia, she is being given the option that Gideon was not and may choose not to partake in the main course. Now free, Hannibal is taking care of unfinished business, starting with Bedelia, and then moving on to Alana. I also like the Chilton theory, and I could see them going there if there is a 4th season, but I can't see that arc lasting more than an episode or two (long enough for Bedelia to get et, but Chilton won't be able to keep up art murder for long -- he's too unsophisticated).

Random Notes:
Does a murder-suicide toss off of a cliff count as "us[ing] my hands"?
Siouxsie was perfect.
See!
I love that Francis's murder-wizardry was on par with Hannibal's. It's art murder with more gun-kata.
posted by sparklemotion at 6:56 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh god of course Hannibal's murder bolt hole is an elegant mid century glass cannibal cabin with a wine cellar overlooking the sea.
posted by The Whelk at 7:06 PM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


"I'll have my cake and eat it too, we'll kill the dragon, embrace, and enjoy a passionate fulfillment before we die in the sea."

"Lol yer not getting away that easy Willy. not after our wedding night."
posted by The Whelk at 7:09 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


We are in for some giggles on Sunday.
posted by sparkletone at 7:25 PM on August 28, 2015


It's also been the case where Hannibal has set a place for someone not yet there or not expected, as a symbolic act. Plausibly he may have survived and Will did not but the place is still set.

Or, you know, Hannibal died and Will has picked up the fallen Art Murder banner and is off to see the world.

I really feel like Bedelia would not let herself get caught, or have, like, a cyanide capsule installed in a hollow tooth once she realized Hannibal is loose.
posted by PussKillian at 7:32 PM on August 28, 2015


Angry Bedelia was so amazing that I'm sad we got shell shocked missing a leg Bedelia
posted by The Whelk at 7:35 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


The only thing stopping me from re-watching this right now is knowing I can do it on Saturday and witness ALL OF THE TEARS
posted by The Whelk at 7:36 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Lecterstiltskin?
posted by detachd at 9:24 PM on August 28, 2015


I haven't even read this thread yet but but BUT if I WAS THE SHOW RUNNER, I'd have

Will Totally Planned This As A Murder-Suicide To Have His Cake And Eat It Too

But Hannibal had a plan for Just This Situation, and Now They're Stuck Together Forever Just Like He Wanted

Chilton's Skin Desire as a Possible Thread To Pick Up As An Abstract Silence Of The Lambs Plot But Not Anything Firm, Just A Reference, Just In Case

Make The Bedelia Dinner Ambiguous To Allow For Wiggle Room But Totally Imply She's The New Abel Gideon.

If you wanted to go harder on the end credit scene, that is make it more concrete, I'd have it be the same, but the door opens just at the end, Bedelia looks, grabs her fork, and stabs herself in the neck, denying them the satisfaction of talking to their meal.

I mean I think 100% she didn't cut off that leg herself and isn't sitting shell-shocked and drugged looking at a HANNIBAL DINING TABLE WITH HER LEG and three table settings cause she wanted to. I assume we are seeing the future here.
posted by The Whelk at 10:25 PM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


omg JImmy, omg Zeller, omg Alana and Margot whisking Little Verger away to a HELICOPTER surrounded by GAURDS WITH AK-47s omg "it's beautiful" omg domestic wine talk omg angry bedelia omg PRESSING YOUR HAND on the GLASS and saying "If I rejected you" (DID HE?!) omg moon omg everyone
posted by The Whelk at 10:31 PM on August 28, 2015 [5 favorites]


I mean, on WIll's side, part of the appeal of Hannibal is the Monster Boyfriend trope, which Clarice gets in the Hannibal book, he's a monster and bad for you, but he'll RIP OUT THE THROAT OF SOMEONE if he's on your side. Who is caged and who is the cager thing, gaaah


I cant even get into the Reba stuff til I see it again. I didn't breathe for that entire segment, and then her in the hospital, oh GOD
posted by The Whelk at 10:34 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Will has to be at his last rope, fake seducing him didn't work, going to the edge didn't work, trying to kill him didn't work, being away from him didn't work, maybe the only way is to GO ALL IN

Can't live with him, can't live without him.
posted by The Whelk at 10:36 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm not even thinking how that "spun out gold for you" relates to the fairytale theme of this season and how Alana got to marry the Princess and live Happily Ever After
posted by The Whelk at 10:39 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


Actual thought seeing Alana back-lit in the hospital "Oh god, he's won, everyone has gone full Vampire, completely morally infected. Everyone is on Hannibal's moral level now, working in his world. He's totally won."

I thought that with Alana at Chilton's oxygen chamber, in a glass coffin like sleeping beauty, no one is thinking about the right thing, they're thinking about the thing that works. Vampire logic.
posted by The Whelk at 10:42 PM on August 28, 2015 [4 favorites]


arguably Sioux already recorded the best Hannigram theme, just imagine that fight set to this

hey now we know Will gets a cool cheek scar.
posted by The Whelk at 10:48 PM on August 28, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm listening to Like An Animal now and I haven't done that since I wrote that Tony/Steve Avengers novella

Hello my name is the whelk and I am shipper trash
posted by The Whelk at 10:55 PM on August 28, 2015 [2 favorites]


oh god now I'm imagining the final fight (cause MURDER IS SEX ON THIS SHOW I CALLED IT) AKA wedding night CONSUMPTION set to Sugar Baby Love
posted by The Whelk at 11:17 PM on August 28, 2015


oh god I could totally do Will as a tolerant but strict Murder Husband for like a thousand words oh god stop me
posted by The Whelk at 11:18 PM on August 28, 2015 [8 favorites]


literally never will anyone stop you
posted by poffin boffin at 5:12 AM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


i forbid it
posted by poffin boffin at 5:12 AM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm not even thinking how that "spun out gold for you" relates to the fairytale theme of this season and how Alana got to marry the Princess and live Happily Ever After

I thought that with Alana at Chilton's oxygen chamber, in a glass coffin like sleeping beauty, no one is thinking about the right thing, they're thinking about the thing that works. Vampire logic.

These observations are not entirely incompatible: "They say I was fooled; that it was not her heart. That it was the heart of an animal — a stag, perhaps, or a boar. They say that, and they are wrong."
posted by kewb at 5:33 AM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Didn't Miriam Lass spend some time as brainwashed apprentice to our Murder Wizard. Isn't she still out there, and couldn't she still be...activated like some kind of Manchurian Candidate?

But that would probably feel like retread wouldn't it? Her activation moment was seeing chilton and shooting him.

I'm gonna miss this you guys. Half eateing each other, crawling into ovens, waiting patiently for The Welk to show up and say things , thus causing our show to do them.

This has really been something special.
posted by The Legit Republic of Blanketsburg at 6:55 AM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


So did Hannibal's escape from police custody in the back of a transport van remind anyone else of Abel Gideon's escape from police custody in the back of a transport van, or was it just me?
posted by shakespeherian at 11:42 AM on August 29, 2015




Actual Mischievous Pixie Hugh Dancy has, for months, been describing the finale in interviews as "a great jumping-off point for a new season" and saying "it's going to make a big splash"
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:49 AM on August 29, 2015 [19 favorites]


Looking around, wow I've learned so much about clothing and plating from this show, my apartment is done up in Threatening Chic because of this show.

I'm going to commission a tartan blazer in the famy weave to commemorate the end of season 3 and the long hiatus.

(I might do that murder husband minific if I think of a decent conflict/hook)
posted by The Whelk at 11:56 AM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


Again, I apologize.
posted by shakespeherian at 11:58 AM on August 29, 2015


This was your design.
posted by The Whelk at 12:04 PM on August 29, 2015


I thought the wall herb garden was at Hannibal's house?

That's the great thing about it. Once you see it, and the rest of Bedelia's whole thing, you can see how Hannibal has been obsessing over and mimicking his psychiatrist. Just like Franklyn starting to dress more and more Lecter-like from session to session. They're both just as pathetic in some ways.
posted by figurant at 12:07 PM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


I just got to thinking about Reba finding out the Dragon is still out there and wondering if they'll ever find him at Hannibal's Clifftop Home of Captives and Erosion. I'm assuming no one knows about it and that it wasn't where Jack found Miriam Lass as Hannibal was comfortable using it after escape. Reba might be scared in the dark for a loooooooong time.
posted by yellowbinder at 12:11 PM on August 29, 2015


Well, Dolarhyde found the place after all.

Say, speaking of which, why did he set them free, allow them to go off together, and then come find them again?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:24 PM on August 29, 2015


(Honestly a lot of stuff in this ep felt like contrivance to get Will and Hannibal from the BSHCI to that bluff, in a way that the show is usually better about.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:25 PM on August 29, 2015


"He won't kill us here ...something somethong intimate"
posted by The Whelk at 12:27 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh man Will jusy SAVORING the sight of a shot Hannibal, he takes a sio of winr!
posted by The Whelk at 12:28 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


sounds like you've had a few sio of winr yourself
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:31 PM on August 29, 2015 [15 favorites]


Say: given that this season will be eligible for next year's Emmys, is there any plausible way of lobbying for its inclusion on the ballot?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:35 PM on August 29, 2015


I'm drunk on murder husbands and also wine.
posted by The Whelk at 12:38 PM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


I'm going off to a baseball game tonight which is good because otherwise I would just be spending the entire evening on the internet.

This way I can go have some tacos, ride a roller coaster, see some baseball and fireworks, come home, and then spend the entire NIGHT on the internet.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:42 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I believe that's what they call a mic drop.
posted by shakespeherian at 12:44 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I assumed Dolarhyde watched and followed them from the van to the Pretty Shiny Cliffside Murder House of Murder, Fine Clothing, And Probably Also Metaphoric Murder Sex. Which has holes in it still but I'm willing to handwave that if he was planning a whole "videotaping my art murder so I can put it on Vine" thing, he wanted more quiet and seclusion than the roadside provided, and that he was feeling pretty confident Hannibal would go to ground somewhere secluded.

I would like someone to tell me the story of the road trip from the van to the Murder House in that stolen police car. Did they listen to the radio? Did they stop for snacks? Did they make idle chitchat? Did they pull off somewhere to snog? So many questions.
posted by Stacey at 12:51 PM on August 29, 2015 [5 favorites]


"Weather's nice today." " yeah it feels like spring has sprung." "You want NPR on?" " oh no thank you, Radiolab is offensive, I keep wanting to open up Jad Applerod's voice box." "You wanna make out behind that tree?" " sure rhing, but no biting." "No promises. "
posted by The Whelk at 1:01 PM on August 29, 2015 [7 favorites]


I would like someone to tell me the story of the road trip from the van to the Murder House in that stolen police car. Did they listen to the radio? Did they stop for snacks? Did they make idle chitchat? Did they pull off somewhere to snog? So many questions.

Considering the many frequent (and apparently brief?) road trips in S01 between Baltimore and Minnesota, this particular road trip probably took all of two minutes.
posted by shakespeherian at 1:21 PM on August 29, 2015 [7 favorites]


So you're saying it was a quickie angersnog, then. Okay, I can work with that.
posted by Stacey at 1:57 PM on August 29, 2015


I assumed Dolarhyde watched and followed them from the van to the Pretty Shiny Cliffside Murder House of Murder, Fine Clothing, And Probably Also Metaphoric Murder Sex. Which has holes in it still but I'm willing to handwave that if he was planning a whole "videotaping my art murder so I can put it on Vine" thing, he wanted more quiet and seclusion than the roadside provided, and that he was feeling pretty confident Hannibal would go to ground somewhere secluded.

Yeah, plus one assumes the convoy might be missed pretty quickly. Even as... patchily competent as the FBI can be in this show, I can't assume Jack and Alana were like "I am sure this will go off without a hitch! No need to check in! Things involving Hannibal and Will always go fine!" Sticking around the scene of the escape would be a bad call for either Murder Courtship or feeding the Great Red Dragon.
posted by ubersturm at 2:05 PM on August 29, 2015


Well and he's established as liking to transform folks somewhere where he can then go luxuriate in the moonlight in seclusion, which does not exactly describe a midafternoon expressway.
posted by shakespeherian at 2:15 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


I just realized how much that Cannibal Cabin reminded me of North By Northwest, which also had to guys in love but also murdering
posted by The Whelk at 2:46 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mads' delivery of the line "Going my way?" makes me feel like his Hannibal could totally pull off calling Clarice a "rube" and now I'm going to be sad all day thinking about that.

I do agree that some of the plotting of this episode is inelegant in the way the show normally isn't but it plays the moments so well, I can forgive it that. Though it does make me think that Italy could possibly have been an episode shorter, so that the ending didn't feel quite so rushed.

I still love that Will's motivations are still quite unknown to us. I mean, there are plenty of complex characters on TV, but I still can't quite read Will - is he also in love or was he using Hannibal's love to kill him. Hugh Dancy is phenomenal.
posted by crossoverman at 3:16 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


Miss me?
posted by sparkletone at 3:20 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I HAVE TO TALK ABOUT HANNIBAL'S SUIT IN THE MIND PALACE


Okay so we know a few things about the costume design: They wanted to start Hannibal off wearing light colors that slowly turn darker (did this in seasons 1 and two, with Euro!Hannibal wearing like crazy combinations of black AND white) and that they avoided putting him in Lucifer/Death colors because he would be someone who embraces color and pattern and not look like a funeral director (except, notable, when he meets with Bella, who is both Compassion and Death). Clothes are important signifies in the show, when mason dresses Hannibal and Will up it's in like, a garish parody of what Mason thinks is fancy. Everything is clashing and pattern on pattern

ALSO, this is Will imagining Hannibal, so take that into consideration.

Hannibal is wearing a suit like he wore in season one, but it's ...wrong, the bone white patterned with thin black windowpane, the black shirt (Hannibal almost never wears colored shirts, white or blue) and that ...black on floral bounty of spring tie. It's SO WEIRD and SO SPECIFIC that I can;t figure out what it means but I know it means SOMETHING.
posted by The Whelk at 4:02 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


My wife will not rest until I create a ringtone for her phone that is just Mads saying "mic drop" on an eternal loop.
posted by Shepherd at 4:39 PM on August 29, 2015 [5 favorites]


The mind palace stuff is Will imaging Hannibal? I thought it took place in Ham's mind.
posted by shakespeherian at 5:33 PM on August 29, 2015


I kind of can't tell, I guess since it's the chapel it's Hannibal's mind but ....why has he dressed himself that way then.
posted by The Whelk at 5:49 PM on August 29, 2015


Just throwing out the idea that it could be how he would dress had he been free but had taken off his person suit.
posted by shakespeherian at 5:55 PM on August 29, 2015


He should listen to the person suit it has better taste
posted by The Whelk at 6:03 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


i feel like i will enjoy the finale even more with this delightful concussion
posted by poffin boffin at 6:35 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


be on the lookout for light boxes
posted by The Whelk at 6:38 PM on August 29, 2015


OK poffin boffin concussing yourself to set the mood is definitely hardcore and I am going to have to open a better grade of wine to keep up.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:39 PM on August 29, 2015




it has been an eventful week
posted by poffin boffin at 6:41 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


That wine looks abysmal
posted by shakespeherian at 6:47 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jesus fucking Christ, I finally stopped the intermittent weeping that started at 9:50 pm on Thu, and now I'm going to do it all again. Someone, please just tear my throat out or throw me off a cliff.

On the upside, my wine is even worse than that Mongrel Chardonnay.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:50 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


My Hannibal dinner https://twitter.com/leavittalone/status/637803796110942208

(Report! The wine is ...ok.)
posted by The Whelk at 6:52 PM on August 29, 2015


I have been drinking a lot of Italian wine recently and I think France and California both need to reconsider what they've done with their lives.
posted by shakespeherian at 6:53 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


WHAT THE FUCKING FUCK IS THIS

I SEE FOOTBALL

IT'S NOT EVEN THE GOOD KIND OF FOOTBALL

I AM BURNING THIS FUCKING PIECE OF SHIT COUNTRY TO THE GROUND
posted by poffin boffin at 6:55 PM on August 29, 2015


You know, this pre-Hannibal ninja thing loud shiny flashy show? makes me think Hannibal's feelings about people in general are not entirely unjustified.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:57 PM on August 29, 2015


How is it I've watched this thing three times and I'm still nervous now? This is actually kind of disturbing.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:00 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's happening!
posted by The Whelk at 7:01 PM on August 29, 2015


i'm sort of sad that they never did the scene where dickie arms has the run-in with the gas station guy, having it explained in an aside wasn't as great.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:03 PM on August 29, 2015


Every time I rewatch the last scene and Will says the blood looks black, I'm like, "Hannibal, step away back toward the house, son." But I have faith that Hannibal knew the score as always; no way they'd waste 5 minutes of a 42 minute show talking about eroding bluffs for no good reason.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:03 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


So when Francis shoots Hams, he's got to be right in that little courtyard area, right? Isn't that where Hams is standing, right in front of the doors that face the cliff? It seems like they could have exercised a *bit* more caution.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:12 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Every time I rewatch the last scene and Will says the blood looks black

Except in that shot it very much doesn't look black at all. Esp compared to the prior exemplars in this arc. WTF?

It seems like they could have exercised a *bit* more caution.

Shoulda worn a condom!
posted by carsonb at 7:16 PM on August 29, 2015


How does that glass wall not just smash under the weight of all the sexual tension it's been exposed to? Poor glass.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:16 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


Except in that shot it very much doesn't look black at all. Esp compared to the prior exemplars in this arc. WTF?

Hey, facial stab wounds can mess up your vision!
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:20 PM on August 29, 2015


"Your face is closed to me." Yeah, and Dragon gonna fix that.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:21 PM on August 29, 2015


Which brings up the point, hey, they decided to go there with the facial would on Will. If a 4th season happens/happened he'd have had the gnarly scar talked about in the book.
posted by Windigo at 7:21 PM on August 29, 2015


It can just be a cool sexy scar
posted by The Whelk at 7:23 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


oh god here it comes: you righteous reckless twitchy little man!
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:25 PM on August 29, 2015 [7 favorites]


i can't decide which i love more, will's shifty eyes during his conversation with jack or bedelia's face during her entire conversation with will

however i feel that there is boundless limitless love in my heart for CANNIBAL EMOTIONS so it's alll good
posted by poffin boffin at 7:25 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


As for how Francis finds the convoy, and finds Hannigram at the crash pad? My bet is Will helpfully provided GPS.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:28 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


you righteous reckless twitchy little man

Sounded so much more vulgar than any obscenity-laden insult I've ever heard.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:29 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


First time around I thought she was going to ram that whiskey glass down his throat.
posted by The Whelk at 7:29 PM on August 29, 2015


I just love the fact that all Bedelia's careful preternatural calm just goes bye-bye.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:29 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Someone earlier said Bedelia looked angry, and I can see it sure, but the first thing I thought watching her pour that drink was sweaty, shivering fear.
posted by carsonb at 7:31 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Meat's back on the menu."


I must say, while Hannibal's old office was amazing, I also love the Douglas Sirk coldness of Bedelia's. The Will Graham profile shot was especially good.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 7:31 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I just love the fact that all Bedelia's careful preternatural calm just goes bye-bye.

I love that even when she's losing her actual shit she still manages to sound like someone from 1890 who's stylishly dying of consumption.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:33 PM on August 29, 2015 [13 favorites]


you righteous reckless twitchy little man

I don't understand how people think that the woman who said that would be the same woman to offer her own leg up.
posted by Windigo at 7:34 PM on August 29, 2015 [7 favorites]


Someone earlier said Bedelia looked angry, and I can see it sure, but the first thing I thought watching her pour that drink was sweaty, shivering fear.

rage and terror are pretty similar emotions.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:34 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


I know! Her hysteria is like my most mellow.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:35 PM on August 29, 2015


This may be the scariest Hannibal has ever been here with Alana.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:36 PM on August 29, 2015


Ugh Hannibal's face when he's telling her everything she has is "borrowed."

He's so going after her. I hope they ran far enough.
posted by Windigo at 7:36 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I also love the Douglas Sirk coldness of Bedelia's.

Omigod that's exactly what association I've been looking for this whole time.
posted by shakespeherian at 7:39 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hideous monster, but there on the bluff, I still want to go on a murder spree with him. So confusing.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:40 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Margot and Alana are going to be paranoid recluses in a Heavily armed Swiss mountaintop chalet forever now
posted by The Whelk at 7:41 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's so great that Hannibal (unlike Jack and Alana) isn't buying one tiny bit of this shit, but he's game to go. You have to dig his basic joie de vivre and optimism.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:42 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


will's "please" is so smug and flippant, i feel like hannibal was so delighted by this obvious sign of his deception, so proud.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:43 PM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


The Red Dragon really is the best wingman ever.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:44 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


I forgot how DELIGHTFUL Hannibal out in theo pen is "You know Will you worry too much"
posted by The Whelk at 7:44 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Margot and Alana are going to be paranoid recluses in a Heavily armed Swiss mountaintop chalet forever now

Why do I think that Hannibal would just love to have their child, and get another chance at playing family with Will?
posted by Windigo at 7:45 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think Will is going both ways.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:45 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I forgot how DELIGHTFUL Hannibal out in theo pen is "You know Will you worry too much"

I know -- it makes me so chipper to see him fling off the mask and straitjacket and put on some regular clothes. WTF is wrong with me?
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:46 PM on August 29, 2015


"Killing with Bedelia was so boring! I had to do everything! Now Will! That's a fine life and death partner!"
posted by The Whelk at 7:49 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


They might as well be sniffing each other oh wait they already did that
posted by The Whelk at 7:50 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


On the other hand given the turned-himself-in aspect I get the feeling that Hannibal never felt significantly imprisoned, and I don't know that I ever felt like he was anything but willfully restraining himself, playing a part in a charade. It doesn't feel so much like 'Oh no, Hannibal is on the loose again!' as 'Oh no, Hannibal stopped pretending to be locked up!'
posted by shakespeherian at 7:50 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


goldberg variations again?
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:50 PM on August 29, 2015


Will's wine glass might be my favorite thing about this episode. *


*Except for the entirety of the next ten minutes
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 7:50 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


God this whole conversation is so sweet and sad "can't save myself" "lay down life for a friend" "glad you chose life, Francis" "suicide is the enemy."
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:52 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Man, these people are all so fucking articulate when grievously wounded.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:53 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Just keep sticking hard long objects in each other guys
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 PM on August 29, 2015 [9 favorites]


GOD THE WAY THEIR EYES MEET BEFORE THEY KILL TOGETHER

I CAN'T
posted by poffin boffin at 7:55 PM on August 29, 2015 [7 favorites]


it's murder and cannibalism and it's still a better love story than twilight
posted by poffin boffin at 7:56 PM on August 29, 2015 [8 favorites]


Will's wine glass might be my favorite thing about this episode. *

Yes, the way he just keeps sipping! Observe or participate?

Oh man the way Hannibal glares when Dolarhyde stabs Will though. "Only I get to do that!"
posted by ubersturm at 7:57 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


I joked about wanting an ending like Gladstone's A KISS WITH TEETH and then it happened.
posted by The Whelk at 7:57 PM on August 29, 2015


STEP BACK HANNIBAL
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:57 PM on August 29, 2015


gross cannibal sobbing
posted by poffin boffin at 7:58 PM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


OK, Bedelia's leg -- has WINGS, like a FIREFLY
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:59 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Holy shit yes it does!
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:00 PM on August 29, 2015


https://twitter.com/bryanfuller/status/637821817797804032 !!!!!
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:01 PM on August 29, 2015 [7 favorites]


I've been dying to say that since Thu, but I had to stay away and do a bunch of awful work!
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:01 PM on August 29, 2015


Guys that's Hannibal's dinner table.
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


WHICH STRONGLY RESEMBLES THE ONE SHAKESPERIAN MADE ME BUY
posted by The Whelk at 8:02 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Suck it, ambiguity
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:02 PM on August 29, 2015


!!!!!!!!! ? !!!
posted by poffin boffin at 8:02 PM on August 29, 2015


https://twitter.com/BryanFuller/status/637821817797804032/photo/1

See? It says "Hannibal." Hannibal did that to Bedelia.
posted by Windigo at 8:03 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


Man I am back to hopeless flailing.
posted by ubersturm at 8:04 PM on August 29, 2015


....Is this a bluff? Is this a long con? GOD DAMNIT BRYAN
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:04 PM on August 29, 2015


GUYS THE SHOOTING SCRIPT SAYS BEDELIA WAITS FOR HER HOST TO RETURN
posted by The Whelk at 8:04 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


It's an eroding bluff.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:05 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


I do really love the way Will sips his wine while Francis is killing Hams.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:06 PM on August 29, 2015 [8 favorites]


WHICH STRONGLY RESEMBLES THE ONE SHAKESPERIAN MADE ME BUY

UGH i've been trying to find stuff i want to do in my house now that i need all new stuff and all the catalog staging on resthard and potty barn is just uninspiring so i started looking on the most expensive airbnb offerings in my neighborhood but all the stuff i ended up picking out for myself is a little fucking hannibaly
posted by poffin boffin at 8:06 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Via Twitter: GREATEST FANFIC PROMPT OF ALL TIME
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


GUYS THE SHOOTING SCRIPT SAYS BEDELIA WAITS FOR HER HOST TO RETURN

Why doesn't it say HOSTS
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:07 PM on August 29, 2015


is a little fucking hannibaly

This is how it happens. This is how we turn. This is our becoming
posted by The Whelk at 8:07 PM on August 29, 2015 [5 favorites]



GUYS THE SHOOTING SCRIPT SAYS BEDELIA WAITS FOR HER HOST TO RETURN


SCREAM
posted by poffin boffin at 8:09 PM on August 29, 2015


So much of what you smart people predicted happened: Will sacrificing himself (more like the pre-Revelation nice Lamb than the wrathful one after Francis was dealt with) to try and contain/resolve Hannibal.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:09 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rarely is a show on our exact specific wavelength that we can basically run it from here
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Which means MORE MAKE OUTS IN 2017
posted by The Whelk at 8:10 PM on August 29, 2015




TVLINE | Are you reluctant to say more about your vision — on the chance that you can somehow create a Season 4 or a big-screen adaptation?

Yeah. You know, there is a plot point in the [Thomas Harris] novel Hannibal that has not been in any of the [filmed] adaptations. And so, it’s important for me to protect that and hopefully be able to tell it one day. Of course, the “Fannibals” are so smart and know the books so well that I’m sure it won’t be too big of a stretch to figure out exactly what it would be.


What? What is it??
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:15 PM on August 29, 2015


But Will was also in the same terrible untenable position (only way worse now that they have GoneAlltheWay) as Mizumono. He can't be part of a MurderMarriage, and doesn't want to even want one, but Hannibal's right that he also can't go home or have an untainted Hannibal-free life. So whatchagonnado? And clifftop Hannibal is really the simplest, loveliest version of himself. All he wants is to cling to Will even if it means falling.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:18 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think the question is, what is it if it's not Argentina?
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:18 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Dancy:... But you know what? I guess, actually thinking about it, it’s hard to believe that Hannibal would really die. Because he’s not exactly mortal. And I personally think that if Hannibal’s going to survive, he would save Will. So I don’t know. Let’s just say they’re on a beach somewhere.

Just chilling on a beach?
Dancy: Yeah, just chilling on a beach. Drinking something out of a coconut. Or a skull.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 8:18 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


It's the part with Hannibal and Clarice at the end of the novel when they are living the high life in South America.

I don't know how that is appreciably different to Hannibal and Bedelia in Italy this season, but I'm sure Fuller knows what he's doing. But that is the section he means.
posted by crossoverman at 8:19 PM on August 29, 2015


Mmmm. It's just now airing in the Mountain time zone, and while I watched on Thursday to not have to avoid the entire fun parts of the Internet the past couple of days, this really is a show that needs HD and surround sound, not a tiny streaming window. I got the plot, but that's less important than the gestalt.

My favorite parts are the murder tableaux and the dinners that are inspired by them (so this season's lacked a bit for me, images like Bedelia slipping into her bathwater notwithstanding), so I'm looking forward to the post-credits scene the most. Imagine what those crazy kids can create now.

(Also, yay Alana and Margot. I choose to believe that they survive and have an actually healthy relationship. There should be one out of all of them.)
posted by rewil at 8:24 PM on August 29, 2015


You know, there is a plot point in the [Thomas Harris] novel Hannibal that has not been in any of the [filmed] adaptations. And so, it’s important for me to protect that and hopefully be able to tell it one day.

It's an entire season about Barney Matthews.
posted by shakespeherian at 8:24 PM on August 29, 2015


Btw, did you-all see the still someone posted showing the painting that has been on the wall between Will and Bedelia during all their second-half pissy therapeutic chats?

This motherfucking show.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:26 PM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


(Fixed link, sorry)
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:29 PM on August 29, 2015


I can't really see what the picture is of?
posted by Windigo at 8:30 PM on August 29, 2015


i think it's cliffs? but not beachy cliffs from what i can see?
posted by poffin boffin at 8:34 PM on August 29, 2015


>Btw, did you-all see the still someone posted showing the painting that has been on the wall between Will and Bedelia during all their second-half pissy therapeutic chats?

It's a clue that they are bluffing.

(I'll show myself out.)
posted by Catblack at 8:34 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


I thought it was (lower) bluffs/cliffs on water, but I can't find a bigger shot.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:36 PM on August 29, 2015


Pissy!Tumblr is pretty sure that either it was queerbaiting because they didn't literally make out, or else it wasn't queerbaiting and therefore it was homophobic because if Hannibal is gay then he's a Gay Villain TM and those are Always Bad.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:37 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


The "gay villain" assertion has been bugging the shit out of me because the entire point of that stereotype is that the villain's sexuality is part of what makes him menacing/threatening to the (straight) audience, whereas with Hannibal, his feelings for Will are the most humanizing trait he has, and have nothing to do with the nature of his violence.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:39 PM on August 29, 2015 [15 favorites]


pissy tumblr is a bunch of dumb pissbabies
posted by poffin boffin at 8:41 PM on August 29, 2015 [5 favorites]


it's right there in the name, even!
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:42 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Seppinwall interview

Was there any thought given to having them do more than embrace at the end, or would that in some way be diminishing the very unique and strange nature of their relationship?

Mads and Hugh, there were a lot of takes where they got very intimate, and lips were hovering over lips. I definitely had the footage to go there, because Mads and Hugh were so game. They called me and warned me: "We really went for it!" And then I saw the dailies, I thought there was a fine line from that #Hannigraham fan fiction motive to give the hardcore audience exactly what they want in terms of this actually being a homosexual relationship between these two men, and what is authentic for the characters in that final moment. I mean, it's not "Brokeback Mountain." Mads isn't gonna be spitting on his hand and getting to work. (laughs) We felt we had to keep it genuine to the tone of the relationship as we've been telling it in the series, and even in that moment when Will asks if Hannibal is in love with him, and Bedelia says, "Of course he is, ya big queen!" Even in that moment, it's not quite dipping into the physical passions that would be the case if they were both homosexual. But I feel one is ominisexual and one is heterosexual and there's a lot of influence going back and forth, who knows with a six pack of beer what would happen.

If those outtakes are not in the outtake reel I stg
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:49 PM on August 29, 2015 [8 favorites]


Yeah, when they said the gag reel is coming out tomorrow, I was like, IT HAD BETTER INCLUDE EVERY SINGLE FUCKING OUTTAKE from the minute Hannibal and Will step out of the wrecked police car, or I will go insane.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:51 PM on August 29, 2015


This Fuller interview with Alan Sepinwall is AMAZING:

Bryan Fuller: Mads and Hugh, there were a lot of takes where they got very intimate, and lips were hovering over lips. I definitely had the footage to go there, because Mads and Hugh were so game. They called me and warned me: "We really went for it!" And then I saw the dailies, I thought there was a fine line from that #Hannigraham fan fiction motive to give the hardcore audience exactly what they want in terms of this actually being a homosexual relationship between these two men, and what is authentic for the characters in that final moment. I mean, it's not "Brokeback Mountain." Mads isn't gonna be spitting on his hand and getting to work. (laughs) We felt we had to keep it genuine to the tone of the relationship as we've been telling it in the series, and even in that moment when Will asks if Hannibal is in love with him, and Bedelia says, "Of course he is, ya big queen!" Even in that moment, it's not quite dipping into the physical passions that would be the case if they were both homosexual. But I feel one is ominisexual and one is heterosexual and there's a lot of influence going back and forth, who knows with a six pack of beer what would happen.

AND

I always wanted the sex scenes on "Hannibal" to feel the way that really amazing amyl nitrate-fueled sex can be, where you're out of your body, and your flesh is merging with the flesh of your partner, and it's also a great metaphor for penetration in many ways.
posted by crossoverman at 8:52 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Bedelia says, "Of course he is, ya big queen!"

Oh god, she has to say this in Season 4.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:52 PM on August 29, 2015


Janice is a fan of Hamibal.
posted by sparkletone at 8:53 PM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


jinx

I also love how he basically said "um you thought Bedelia did that to herself? You adorable dolt"
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:53 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Interesting that Fuller wasn't on set when they shot that scene.

(I don't mean interesting in a leading way, I just mean that it's interesting to me.)
posted by Ian A.T. at 8:54 PM on August 29, 2015


See? It says "Hannibal." Hannibal did that to Bedelia.

Of course he cooked it. No one else dresses a meal like that.
posted by sparkletone at 8:54 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Will "Three beer queer" Graham.

May a billion fanfics bloom.
posted by The Whelk at 8:56 PM on August 29, 2015 [11 favorites]


Has Fuller actually outright stated that Hannibal is omnisexual in the past, or is that new?
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:58 PM on August 29, 2015


I think that's new, but it has certainly always been my impression.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:00 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Greg your not just famous you're crew of a cult TV show no one watched famous
posted by The Whelk at 9:00 PM on August 29, 2015 [9 favorites]


Or more that, as we've said, for Hannibal, violence is really the key component of intimacy and attraction. It seems like orientation is sort of beside the point because in most of his life, sex has been a manipulation tool (like with Alana) and never a source of intimacy, joy, or affection -- until now maybe.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:02 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


"Even I look at the show as a very black comedy. It was very literary, it was very pretentious, and very niche."

Bless you, NBC. Despite everything.
posted by rewil at 9:02 PM on August 29, 2015


Mads isn't gonna be spitting on his hand and getting to work. (laughs)

Not with that attitude.
posted by The Whelk at 9:09 PM on August 29, 2015 [7 favorites]


AV Club sends us off with an A and unsurprisingly, Sepinwall really liked it as well.
posted by sparkletone at 9:11 PM on August 29, 2015


Like Hannibal wouldn't have some fucking artisanal sex oil readily at hand
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:12 PM on August 29, 2015 [5 favorites]


Like Hannibal wouldn't have some fucking artisanal sex oil readily at hand

Will stopped using it when he realized who Hannibal was putting in it.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 9:17 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


almond scented like clarice's soap
posted by poffin boffin at 9:17 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I always wanted the sex scenes on "Hannibal" to feel the way that really amazing amyl nitrate-fueled sex


BRYAN
posted by The Whelk at 9:18 PM on August 29, 2015 [13 favorites]


To be honest, I think they should have cut the stinger when they found out the show wouldn't get another season.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 9:18 PM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


In my personal headcanon I just invented to deal with this: if you want to imagine that Will and Hannibal did die, then (given what type of show this is) you can always take the stinger as being metaphorical: this is the fear that Bedelia will have to live with for the rest of her life, not knowing whether they survived or not.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:28 PM on August 29, 2015 [7 favorites]


To be honest, I think they should have cut the stinger when they found out the show wouldn't get another season.

I like it too much to want to see it gone. I would've enjoyed wondering whose leg it was if we weren't shown so explicitly though.
posted by sparkletone at 9:29 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


The cast and crew farewell twet is making more emotional than the show actually having finished airing. D':
posted by sparkletone at 9:34 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Y'know, I am a boring ancient person whose whole relationship with art/culture was formed in the olden days before modern creative and interactive fandom really existed -- where audiences mostly kind of passively reacted to authors' and directors' choices rather than guiding them or actively rooting/lobbying for X or Y to happen or creating and sharing fanworks, etc. I mean, some people did that stuff, but it was way, way less prevalent when I was young or people did it in their diaries but never talked about it. Anyhow, coming from that background, it doesn't occur to me to ship characters at all, but it's been fascinating to see Fuller's vision of Hannigram take shape and evolve. Despite the hints of Hannibal's early interest in Will, I didn't assume it would (or wouldn't) go this way.

And holy shit, it's really been just beautifully and complexicatedly portrayed, and in this ep, every second starting with Hannibal grabbing the axe (pro-tip: never toss a serial killer into a woodpile) through the fall is pretty much the most (disturbingly) erotic thing ever on broadcast TV and like beyond-Cathy-and-Heathcliff level fucked-up marvelous tragedy.

Tl;dr: release those goddamn sexy outtakes or STFU, Bryan, you withholding bastard. And my, today's GGG Dancy has certainly come a long way from 2013's blushing "nah, I don't think their relationship is really sexual," hasn't he?
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:35 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


So ok, when Hannibal is on the floor bleeding from the stomach while Will stands looming over him, that's obviously calling back to Mizumono - and looking at their faces in that scene, I think they are both remembering that, and they both know that they're feeling a bit of what the other felt back then. Will now understands a bit better how Hannibal could do that to him and still love him. And I think until that point, he was maybe really going to let the Dragon kill him - but seeing him on the floor like that, he just couldn't do it.

Also just to make sure I'm interpreting it right - Will's line about how Hannibal wouldn't have turned himself in if Will didn't reject him meant "I never sincerely rejected you at all, I was just saying so" right?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:36 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


That line made me think Will has kind of realized he can't go back to his old life not really and is kind of angry about it so he pokes Hannibal a bit. he doesn't know Francis is alive, and I think he's trying to torment Hannibal with "Well guess what it wasn't all fake it totally could've happened but now you're stuck here Nyah Nyah Nyah "

And then that blows up in his face spectacularly
posted by The Whelk at 9:43 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, it was a premeditated ploy to get Hannibal to surrender, which means (as we and Hannibal have always known) that Will is no fragile teacup but a strong wily deceptive badass. That has to be such a giant turn-on and source of pride for Hannibal.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:43 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Someone on Twitter just pointed out that given the timejump and the incarceration, the Hug on the Cliff was the first time Hannibal and Will had touched for _three years_. So there's a thing.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 9:45 PM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


I kind of want to put together an FPP of critical responses to the Extreme Gayness of the finale. Who's with me
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:45 PM on August 29, 2015 [9 favorites]


It was the most romantic knife fight as proxy for sex ever.
posted by The Whelk at 9:47 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


Based on Bryan's poppers comment now I want to rescore the final fight to Relax from Frankie Goes To Hollywood
posted by The Whelk at 9:49 PM on August 29, 2015 [11 favorites]


The cast and crew farewell twet is making more emotional than the show actually having finished airing.


The show has devastated me, but every time I'm about to soldier on, the genuine respect, gratitude, and affection the whole crew has for the fanbase makes me start sniffling again. And not in some gross "be nice to the consumers" way.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:49 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


It was the most romantic knife fight as proxy for sex ever.

Couldn't tell you which of a million of the recaps I just read it came from, but Bryan said something like "this is the part of the threesome where you ditch whoever you picked up in the bar to spice things up and then the two of you actually go at it."
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 9:53 PM on August 29, 2015 [5 favorites]


PussKillian: "She looks both scared and drugged to me, and then she slips the fork into her lap, which suggests that at the very least, she may put a few holes in somebody before she goes down."

Reminds me of that old joke: a tribe of cannibals capture three men. The men are told that they will be skinned and eaten and then their skin will be used to make canoes. Then they are each given a final request. The first man asks to be killed as quickly and painlessly as possible. His request is granted, and they poison him. The second man asks for paper and a pen so that he can write a farewell letter to his family. This request is granted, and after he writes his letter, they kill him saving his skin for their canoes. Now it is the third man's turn. He asks for a fork. The cannibals are confused, but it is his final request, so they give him a fork. As soon as he has the fork he begins stabbing himself all over and shouts, "You ain't gonna make no canoe out of me!"
posted by komara at 9:57 PM on August 29, 2015 [8 favorites]


The whole "murder = sex" thing gets very... something if you think about it too literally.

"Hannibal, I can't bring myself to [bleeeep] you. So I've found someone else to [bleeeep] you for me. He's going to tape it. He might [bleeeep] me too afterward but honestly I don't really care, I just want to watch him [bleeeep] you."
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:58 PM on August 29, 2015 [5 favorites]


It was the most romantic knife fight as proxy for sex ever.

The looks on their faces; the eyes communicating; the instinctively synched choreography ("You go high; I'll go low"), ye gods. Plus Will didn't see either of Hannibal's fights with Jack or the one with Tobias, and Hannibal didn't see Will kill Tier or go after Freddie. We've seen both of them being similarly brutal IRL, individually, but they've never witnessed it in each other firsthand, only in fantasy.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:01 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


We've seen both of them being similarly brutal IRL, individually, but they've never witnessed it in each other firsthand, only in fantasy.

Yes exactly! and that's why that fantasy scene of them killing Jack was so important - it wasn't just about imagining them killing Jack, it was the very idea of them killing as a, well, couple.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:03 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


where can you find cannibals

only in maryland

come to maryland we've got cannibals
posted by poffin boffin at 10:03 PM on August 29, 2015 [5 favorites]


The Venn diagram of why I love this show so much and why all my relationships have failed is dangerously close to being a perfectly overlapping circle, is all I'm gonna say.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 10:03 PM on August 29, 2015 [3 favorites]


You just care too much about both? Both make you want to eat people?
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:05 PM on August 29, 2015


Re: AV Club review

Still, with the Bedelia doin' it to herself angle.

Ah well. I like the idea that it can also be read as some sort of metaphor for Bedelia's fear.
posted by Windigo at 10:07 PM on August 29, 2015


It should be noted that Sepinwall is also on my team regarding the stinger, even if we don't have a leg to stand on.
posted by sparkletone at 10:07 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Showbiz_liz: I might expand on this but only once I've had substantially more or, possibly, substantially less wine.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 10:09 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


It should be noted that Sepinwall is also on my team regarding the stinger, even if we don't have a leg to stand on.

No, you have ONE leg to stand on.
posted by Windigo at 10:10 PM on August 29, 2015


(Imagines Bedelia inch-worming across the floor and up into her seat, brushing dustbunnies out of her cleavage)
posted by Windigo at 10:11 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Sooooo much fashion tape.
posted by mikurski at 10:14 PM on August 29, 2015 [5 favorites]


I'm excited we got to see Hannibal in a T-shirt, the perfect thing to dress down a sport jacket on those romantic evenings when you just want to relax at your vacation home with a glass of wine and your murder husband before a murderous psychopath ruins your plate glass window.
posted by Dr. Zira at 10:14 PM on August 29, 2015 [8 favorites]


Francis not only broke the window; he destroyed a very lovely expensive bottle of RED wine that undoubtedly RUINED Hannibal's bespoke shoes and his vintage or exotic wood floor! (And punctured H's intestines in the process, but priorities.)

How. rude.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:21 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


that dress was amazing, i want to kiss the hem of it while averting my eyes from her splendor
posted by poffin boffin at 10:21 PM on August 29, 2015 [11 favorites]


I'm Just trying to imagine their post fall life, like "I know you said no funny stuff but how about you rest your head in my lap and I stroke your perfect hair while we listen to Faust?" "fine, but above the equator, not like at Christmas." " You LIKED Christmas." " A relationship is about boundaries Hanni" " Boundries are made to be tested." * muffled scream in the distance.* " Is that Officer Chenowitz in the crawl space?" " He must've woken up, It is your t-" " Fine, let me do it and wash up." " Don't wash up, you smell best covered in blood." (will storms off)
posted by The Whelk at 10:30 PM on August 29, 2015 [9 favorites]


Oh god I'm going to write this thing aren't I, please shout out some interesting conflicts ( All I got right now is Will noticing Lana and Margot at the Prague Opera , giving them them the RUN AWAY glare and then distracting Hannibal by pulling him into a phone booth (they have them! They're stained glass and very wide) to distract him from them via making out)
posted by The Whelk at 10:33 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh god I'm going to write this thing aren't I

Cleolinda did call this episode the greatest fanfic prompt of all time, so...
posted by sparkletone at 10:44 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Will using "I-statements" and self help jargon to establish the boundaries of their relationship
posted by The Whelk at 10:46 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Quoth Janice Poon to Greg Nog: "You're so funny and clever! Bryan and Loretta love Hamibal too. Hope you get your own network show!"
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:46 PM on August 29, 2015 [10 favorites]


Cleolinda did call this episode the greatest fanfic prompt of all time, so...

Seriously ( pooh what if you went in the other direction and they disguise themselves as totally boring suburban guppies.)
posted by The Whelk at 10:47 PM on August 29, 2015


please shout out some interesting conflicts

Hannibal still leaves Will valentines made of dead people, like that wasn't just a one time thing that is what he DOES, and it's making Will very uncomfortable, but not because of the murder, it's just that it's so extravagant
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:48 PM on August 29, 2015 [4 favorites]


Quoth Janice Poon to Greg Nog: "You're so funny and clever! Bryan and Loretta love Hamibal too. Hope you get your own network show!"

Scream. ING.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:48 PM on August 29, 2015 [6 favorites]


"All this rich food, Hannibal I'm like 5'4 I can't keep eating like this ill balloon up" " that's nothing some wall scaling, victim chasing, and tabluex hailing won't fix. When it's yr hobby it doesn't feel like exercise!"
posted by The Whelk at 10:49 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Scream. ING.

Well, we already knew she had exquisite taste.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:54 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


But I feel one is ominisexual and one is heterosexual and there's a lot of influence going back and forth, who knows with a six pack of beer what would happen.

OK, so Hannibal and Will walk into a bar. . . .
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:08 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I forgot how DELIGHTFUL Hannibal out in theo pen is "You know Will you worry too much"

Get in, loser.
posted by sparkletone at 11:08 PM on August 29, 2015 [2 favorites]


Tl;dr: release those goddamn sexy outtakes or STFU, Bryan, you withholding bastard.

The gag reel will just have funny stuff not ~sexy outtakes~, presumably. But also Aaron Abrams and Hannibal agree: Fuck Hugh Dancy.
posted by sparkletone at 11:17 PM on August 29, 2015


Another fantastic Fuller interview with more/different details. For instance, Dancy came up with "It's beautiful."
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:26 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


I can't sleep which is awkward cause tomorrow I have to be at the Morbid Anatomy Museum flea market which is basically a Hannibal Decor Supercenter (BONES! INSECTS! FEATHER SCUPLTURES! RARE BOOKS! and so on)
posted by The Whelk at 11:28 PM on August 29, 2015


The gag reel will just have funny stuff not ~sexy outtakes~, presumably

I think I need to just overtly tag all stupid jokes and whimsical hyperbole from now on, because I am really bad at getting them across in just text.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:29 PM on August 29, 2015


I should've added a qualifier that any bit of gag reel involving Aaron Abrams and Scott Thompson is probably a ~sexy outtake~ by default.
posted by sparkletone at 11:34 PM on August 29, 2015 [1 favorite]


Martha briefly periscoped Bryan thanking everyone at the end of the screening at his house. MY FEELINGS.
posted by sparkletone at 12:04 AM on August 30, 2015


Oh god these interviews THE MURDER HUSBANDS OF FANFIC LORE

I love that all the talk of alternate dimensions and possible futures in the early start of this season is both a nod to the intertexual remixing of the previous Harris books and movie adaptations but also a nod to the fanficcers to just keep being you.
posted by The Whelk at 12:08 AM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


it's just that it's so extravagant

The radical re-imagining of their relationship in S4, I'm thinking we might all be really off base and all it is is that Hannibal is walking around in a fisherman's sweater or Nantucket reds or something because oh man, the heart wants what it wants.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 12:09 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


A LITTLE FISHING VILLAGE IN MAINE NOTHING BAD HAPPENS IN SMALL TOWN MAINE RIGHT?
posted by The Whelk at 12:16 AM on August 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


... a million-year-old clown alien comes up out of the drainpipe with a handful of balloons and Will looks at Hannibal like, you got this one? and Hannibal's like yeah, I'll meet you at home
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 12:20 AM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Actually, if they use the clifftop outtakes as Kickstarter premiums, Season 4 would be funded in no time. [<--half joking, half not]
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:22 AM on August 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh geez, here's the correct link for the Fuller Variety interview, duh.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:27 AM on August 30, 2015


Backers at this level get : tongue, orgiastic moaning .
posted by The Whelk at 12:27 AM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]






See? It says "Hannibal." Hannibal did that to Bedelia.

Looking at that drawing more, what really strikes me isn't the leg. It's that Bedelia isn't being served the leg. I'd not noticed that she has a separate plate of oysters for herself. So she is being spared Gideon's fate of being her own last meal. That almost makes me want the more ambiguous stinger I've mentioned where we see The Leg™ but not whose it is directly. The oysters, given what happens in Europe, would've heavily implied Bedelia even if you didn't show her.
posted by sparkletone at 12:33 AM on August 30, 2015


Having looked at gifs at that Embrace for an hour now the thing that gets me most is Hannibal's posture. He's so ...tentative in pulling Will toward him, but also just so BEAMING and HAPPY, he cannot believe this is actually happening.

And then whopp cover the cliff
posted by The Whelk at 12:37 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Like you can SEE him thinking "Oh god oh god he's nuzzling me, we totally just had honeymoon murder sex, he said it was beautiful, don't fuck this up Hanni don't fuck this up..."
posted by The Whelk at 12:41 AM on August 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'd been wondering about where that house was located and Bryan says in the TV Line interview that it's about 90 minutes from Toronto... But the cliffs are comped in and apparently from Newfoundland, which makes a lot of sense to me. I didn't think any of the great lakes had cliffs like that though I suppose there's no reason to think they couldn't. I've just never seen anything like that along their shores where I've been. That they're proper Atlantic-ass sea cliffs makes a lot of sense.
posted by sparkletone at 12:44 AM on August 30, 2015


like the double meaning of an eroding bluff, Will's bluff is eroding, cause he has literally tried everything else that is not falling (ha) for Hannibal.

Cause Hannibal needs Will and will MAKE Will need him. It's horrible and perfect. Of course Will tries the Sherlock fall as a have your cake and eat it too.
posted by The Whelk at 12:44 AM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


I really liked the first two seasons of this show. The acting, the amazing cinematography.

Then for me it jumped the shark at the start of season 3. The halting speechifying, talking in generalities, brooding tension. Not what I signed up for. So in that sense I wasn't surprised that the show was canceled.

After that the best thing about the show was the excitement of you guys. I didn't feel it myself. Quite the reverse. But it was a good read!

(btw isn't it the middle of the night in the US now?)
posted by jouke at 12:49 AM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


Then for me it jumped the shark at the start of season 3.

Hmm. "Did I/we go too far?" Obviously, I don't think it did except for maybe a single episode, but then it's not like previous seasons didn't have bum episodes in them (looking at you, Courtroom Episode in S2 just as a prime example). If you haven't, you should read Sepinwall's interview with Bryan. It touches on this as well as the... uncommercialness of the show.

I'm with Bryan in that while Hopkins' portrayal of Lecter will probably always be the iconic one, this is the version that feels most in tune with the character as written (even with how they've extended that in various ways).

(btw isn't it the middle of the night in the US now?)

4am Eastern. SO WHAT.
posted by sparkletone at 1:03 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, at some point they referenced how the Red Dragon targets families. And the families are the core target group in the US. So that the Red Dragon would be more popular than Hannibals arc at that stage. That piece of meta commentary was apt for me. Although the Red Dragon arc didn't fix it for me I'm afraid. Ah well.

It's strange to walk in somewhere at 10 in the morning and find a group in 4 AM drunken partying mode. :-)
Cool. Carry on.
posted by jouke at 1:09 AM on August 30, 2015


Hrm. I don't think anything related to the Red Dragon arc was done in a grab for popularity. Dolarhyde targeting families is straight out of the novel. Though they did broaden that a little to shy away from the sexual assault aspect of his crimes that's present in the original version. They didn't leave that reading of the show entirely out though and I've seen some people upset by that. It's enough for me that Bryan said that while it was left vague, "That's not our intended reading and so even if you can, you shouldn't" as far as that goes.

As for that last bit at least I can say that I'm up this late by choice (as usual on weekends) as opposed to because insomnia like other times.
posted by sparkletone at 1:18 AM on August 30, 2015


Having now read through the various interviews: Nothing makes me more excited for the gag real getting posted soon than the notion that it's going to be heavy on Raul in BBQ Chliton makeup bursting into song.
posted by sparkletone at 1:23 AM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


GUYS THE SHOOTING SCRIPT SAYS BEDELIA WAITS FOR HER HOST TO RETURN

WAIT. WHAT. HAVE THOSE BEEN POSTED YET? THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE ON THE LIVING DEAD GUY SITE LIKE S1 and 2 YET???
posted by sparkletone at 1:39 AM on August 30, 2015


Just the last sentence, on Twitter.
posted by rewil at 1:52 AM on August 30, 2015


TVLINE | Let’s talk about that Siouxsie Sioux song, “Love Crime.” Was that written specifically for this climactic scene?
It was written specifically for the show, and when I heard it, I was like, “We have to put it in the finale.” I have seen Siouxsie and the Banshees more times in concert than I have seen any other artist. She is an inspiration, and was pivotal to my musical development. I can’t articulate what an incredible honor it was to have Siouxsie Sioux step out of retirement — she hasn’t released a single in eight years — to write a song for “Hannibal.” She said she hasn’t been inspired to write in a long time. But Hannibal inspired her to write. It may an all-time high for my career.
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 3:28 AM on August 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


The use of the Siouxsie Song song reminded me of how The Pixies' Where is my Mind marked the ending of Fight Club. A dramatic song to signal the apotheosis; there are no words left. This is what everything worked towards.
Of course the epilogue negated that emotional satisfaction...
posted by jouke at 4:45 AM on August 30, 2015


Based on Bryan's poppers comment now I want to rescore the final fight to Relax from Frankie Goes To Hollywood.

I think you should. As the fellow said: "You know, Will, you worry too much. You’d be much more comfortable if you relaxed with yourself."
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:36 AM on August 30, 2015


The yet uncovered Hannibal scene: It's the part with Hannibal and Clarice at the end of the novel when they are living the high life in South America.

I don't know how that is appreciably different to Hannibal and Bedelia in Italy this season, but I'm sure Fuller knows what he's doing. But that is the section he means.


The Italy scenes are basically the Italy scenes from the beginning of Hannibal, with Bedelia along as a foil since so much of the activity in the book was inside Hannibal's head. That this is Bedelia's reason for being there is why Fuller was able to put her in what he originally considered Abigail's place.

The ending of Hannibal is about Hannibal effecting a complete transformation of Clarice into a godlike being worthy of being his companion. Everyone revolted mainly because the thought of sweet li'l Clarice changing that way broke their heads. But this version of Will is much more obviously a worthy and potentially complicit companion for Hannibal. Also, the notion advanced in the book that Hannibal would cut back on the murder art and fine dining would probably not limit him in Fuller's S4.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:40 AM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


Everyone revolted mainly because the thought of sweet li'l Clarice changing that way broke their heads.

Well, some people revolted because of that; some us were mainly grossed out by horrendous rapiness. The fact that ShowWill genuinely came to love or desire to be a murdercouple (or however Will feels; who knows?) with ShowHannibal is fine -- people fall in love with terrible humans they thought they 100% hated all the time. Clarice wasn't all that sweet and could get the hots for Hannibal -- although mostly only in the youth-obsessed daydreams of much older men.

But if ShowWill and ShowHannibal had "run off" together at the end of Season 1 and their entire "relationship" was due to encephalitis and brainwashy psychic driving, ugh. If there's a Season 4 that includes Hannibal holding Will as a non-consensual non-agent captive, I can't see Fuller portraying that dynamic in a dreamy romantic peer-partner clifftop way (like Harris did with Hannibal-Clarice) but as the creepy shit it is. There's creepy shit between Will and Hannibal as it is, but Will is in control of his choices. And actually, that "I reject you to get you into jail" con Will pulled off and the "maneuver Francis and Hannibal into a place where I can dispose of them and myself" gambit make him seem fully Hannibal's peer, and extremely scary in his own right. He ain't nobody's little lamb duckling teacup now.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:13 AM on August 30, 2015 [7 favorites]


Wow just saw the opening scene

They sure are being faithful to the original, gorily so. What was it he used to fake his corpse - was it someone else he borrowed for the occasion? I can't remember the book details
posted by tel3path at 6:26 AM on August 30, 2015


So I'm barely past the first act but regardless of how it pans out I think the Hannigram ending is earned in a way Clannibal wasn't.
posted by tel3path at 6:27 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


If there's a Season 4 that includes Hannibal holding Will as a non-consensual non-agent captive

But I think showbiz liz is right; if Season 4 goes that way, Hannibal will be the captive.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:35 AM on August 30, 2015


I've been thinking about last week and the Chilton setup.

The reason Will didn't want Alana to do it was because the fact of her having a perfect family made her more of a target. That's partly why he was visualizing her with the mirrors over her eyes and mouth.

No wonder he agreed to let Chilton be volunteered for it - Will STILL thought that, as a family man, the Dragon would automatically be more drawn to him than to Chilton.

Also, it's not like Chilton is a five-year-old that they lured with the promise of candy. He knew the risks he was taking - and, interestingly, whatever his virtues are or not, he's not a coward.

So I've simmered down on last week's anger. Against Will at least. Jack is still a reckless turd, Alana still bullies Chilton into losing some body parts every season, so if it wasn't this it would have been something else. Still.
posted by tel3path at 6:39 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oooh burn, if you'll pardon the expression.

Hannibal is strutting around going "neener I have the upper hand ha ha ha"

And Will is like "yeah I only rejected you so you'd turn yourself in"

Hannibal: [um...]

Hannibal: WAIT WILL COME BACK

Will: [...? they taught us to insert a pause so the customer would feel compelled to fill the silence, look it's working, see]

Hannibal: don't you want me baby

Will: ha ha sike I'm still rejecting you

Will: BECAUSE I DON'T LIKE YOU

Will: and look how you're still incarcerated, nyah nyah
posted by tel3path at 6:47 AM on August 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


Was the fake body someone from Gateway or something, because otherwise why would Will believe for sure the Dragon was stopped and not just doing some elaborate fakeout like Hamibal used to do

Reba made the very worthwhile point - one that needed to be made by someone at some point in this show and have it be true - that you can choose your partners carefully and still pick a bad 'un through no fault of your own.
posted by tel3path at 6:50 AM on August 30, 2015


WAIT WAIT WAIT

Has the picture in between Will and Bedelia changed?

Was there a house there before?

Or a road?

OMG

also would like to decipher those flowers at some point.

Whelk, I've been thinking about Hannibal's suit in the memory palace. Given that Will is in conversation with him in his cell at the moment of imagining him like that, and Will is wearing the same thing both inside the memory palace and out [?] I think it may be mostly Will mentally converting the white jumpsuit into a white three-piece suit.

I think much of the black-and-white is part of a chess metaphor, in which Hannibal plays White (always makes the first move, is always the aggressor, and being the aggressor always has that bit more control of the situation).

I also think that a person wearing a checked pattern is usually in "manipulative" mode, though much of the time I also think it's the season default (check was the default for seasons 1 and 2). This season's default pattern is the vertical stripe, because jail. Lost count of the number of times Alana has worn stripes, but she was wearing checks when she recruited Chilton to bait the Dragon. She was wearing checks much of the time during the first half of the season when she was playing Mason. Also, Hannibal's dining table is made of inlaid checked wood.

Brown is a colour I'm not sure what to do with, though it seems to mean different specific things in different specific contexts, and/or be neutral.
posted by tel3path at 7:02 AM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


Wow, the more I think about it, the more I hate that stinger to a degree that makes me just angry as a viewer and as a human being. I mean, I'm delighted to have seen Gillian Anderson in that dress, but there had to be another way. I feel like without the stinger you have a classic ending on a par with great noir, and with it...I dunno, some lame b-horror movie bullshit. No reading of that scene even really makes sense based on what we've seen; a season 4 would probably spend a good thirty minutes backtracking and explaining how we got there. But we're not getting a season 4, and the one thing the climax of this episode makes abundantly clear is that -- as much as we may want one -- we definitely don't need one. We have an ending. It's not the only possible ending, but it's a pretty damn good and satisfying one, and I wish my DVR had cut off at 10:58.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:09 AM on August 30, 2015 [6 favorites]


Um Alana are you still insisting that Hannibal burned Chilton? The only reason for you to do that is if you feel responsible.

And Chilly, you're insisting that Will burned you? The only reason to blame him is if YOU feel responsible.

Like, can we just get on with blaming the Dragon here, please, and stop with all this divide and rule bullshit. Let us all own our nonsense and be clear about who's actually done what.

But based on what Chilton said I could readily believe that he is the one who is going to have cut Bedelia's leg off.
posted by tel3path at 7:21 AM on August 30, 2015


last episode of Hamibal!
posted by Greg Nog at 7:32 AM on August 30, 2015 [26 favorites]


last episode of Hamibal!

OMFG, I'm totally crying my eyes out while laughing and grinning. [standing ovation] Sweetest thing ever!
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:39 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wow, Hannibal just escaped. I certainly did not see that coming.

The body count just notched up to about 27. Jack, why are you so stupid.
posted by tel3path at 7:47 AM on August 30, 2015


That remark about Miriam Lass invokes the memory of brainwashing.

Hannibal's biggest weakness is he really does think he has the upper hand at any time.

OMG little Pugsley Verger Bloom is just charming.
posted by tel3path at 7:49 AM on August 30, 2015


um

okay, go ahead and lynch me, but that ending fight sequence was

funny, and not in a good way.

Sorry, I thought the finale song was a huge heap of grated parmesan piled on top of a triple decker cheddar and limburger sandwich on cheese bread.

But then maybe if it hadn't been overtly cheesy it wouldn't have had the emotional impact.

Nice of them to let Dolarhyde die in a dragon-shaped pool of blood. They did that in Manhunter too. And they let Buffalo Bill die like a bug with his hands in the air, kind of thing. Grand tradition and all that.

Yes indeed, the trap worked, and they probably saved -37 lives there. Good job.

Bedelia looked like she was in her own home. "Waiting for her host" - the fact she's eating oysters only means there needs to still be time to flavorize her, so she could certainly be facing the same fate as Gideon.

I mean I guess it could be Chilton, but he'd have to have made an awfully quick recovery. Still we don't know what kind of time jump we're looking at.
posted by tel3path at 8:30 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


So at least Dolarhyde advanced the plot there, a little.

Stomach wound came first.

Then the piece of glass, which gets pulled out of the wound.

And then the patient pushing the psychiatrist out the window, but following so that he wouldn't be living the life of Abigail Hobbs.

I just... hm.
posted by tel3path at 8:32 AM on August 30, 2015


I feel like I'm a relatively astute watcher of the show, but I don't remember them ever explaining to the audience how Dolarhyde chose his victims. I liked the idea in the book, and I understand it's a bit antiquated now. There were certainly hints (or nods?) to it in the filming, but was it ever made explicit?
posted by komara at 8:46 AM on August 30, 2015


And then the patient pushing the psychiatrist out the window,

That was a bluff!
posted by carsonb at 8:47 AM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I feel like I'm a relatively astute watcher of the show, but I don't remember them ever explaining to the audience how Dolarhyde chose his victims

Hannibal made a smart-ass crack to Will that it was social media (people not putting their family photos behind privacy settings), and Fuller confirmed that on Twitter or an interview. I think they didn't really care because in the 1980s, it would be super-hard to choose people as Dolarhyde did unless you had his special access, so Harris had to account for it (and it was useful as a plot point). But in 2015, there are 4,000 easy ways to find out anything about anybody, so Fuller can shrug it off.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:52 AM on August 30, 2015


I guess in this day and age Dolarhyde should have been a programmer at Facebook or Instagram watching illigitly peoples home videos. But then the blind developer would have been pointless I guess.
posted by jouke at 9:15 AM on August 30, 2015


There are blind developers.
posted by tel3path at 9:27 AM on August 30, 2015


Software developers.
posted by tel3path at 9:27 AM on August 30, 2015


You know though at least Will took Hannibal down, and that's what we always wanted.
posted by tel3path at 9:28 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


He's just not genre savvy enough to know he's in Toontown.
posted by tel3path at 9:28 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


last episode of Hamibal!

Jesus Christ, Greg Nog, that bit before the cliffjump where Hams is too choked up to sing and just nods is KILLING me. You're as sadistically gifted as Fuller et al.

Thank god you posted this today; I've got all this tedious work typing to do, and rewatching it after each chunk is my motivating incentive.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:30 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Never skip leg day!
posted by The Whelk at 9:33 AM on August 30, 2015 [10 favorites]


You know something?

After all the usual bloodbath/800 red shirt characters killed/Hannibal gets upper hand as usual shit, followed by the usual hideous showdown and reenactment of the Hobbs house crime, extreme bloody violence a go go, Will exhausted and wounded and at least one person dead etc etc must be Tuesday...

...and Hannibal says "this is all I ever wanted for you, Will"

is it any wonder Will flung himself off a cliff, never mind Hannibal.

I mean this is why he dumped Hannibal the last time - Hannibal just parties way too hard for him and it's exhausting.
posted by tel3path at 9:57 AM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hannibal's that friend we've all had (or been) who's like "one more pint? one more pint" at like 2:30 AM and you're like "fine" and then it's a pint of human blood
posted by Greg Nog at 10:00 AM on August 30, 2015 [19 favorites]


Probably thinking at least he'll get a few seconds of peace as they plummet.
posted by The Whelk at 10:01 AM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


Greg Nog I just saw the last Hamibal video and I am dead now and, like poffin boffin, posting this from beyond the grave.

Thanks.
posted by tel3path at 10:04 AM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]




Bryan's gonna be mad that you spoiled his explanation for season 4 though, Greg.
posted by tel3path at 10:35 AM on August 30, 2015


The little thanks-to-the-fans videos that Dancy and Mikkelsen did are nice.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:39 AM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


I really liked the first two seasons of this show. The acting, the amazing cinematography.

Then for me it jumped the shark at the start of season 3.


Yeah, I'm right there with you. I enjoyed s3, but felt it was nowhere near the perfection of s1/s2. Everyone started speaking in cryptic riddles. There were weird artsy stylistic choices that I found cheesy - like when Bedelia and Hannibal had that couple over for dinner and things got all blurry and weird while they were eating.

But mostly I found the loss of Will as a sympathetic character really made the show less engaging, for me. (I totally get that many people would probably argue that he's still sympathetic for them, and that's cool.) For me, seasons 1 and 2 were this terrific arc. Through s1 we got the whole story of Will being manipulated and framed in the most horrible way, and the horror of having no one understand what was happening or help him (PLEASE SOMEONE HELP WILL GRAHAM). And then s2 was a payoff for that - this terrific story of his finally being clear-headed and on even footing with Hannibal mentally but also now in these terrible circumstances otherwise, believed to be guilty and imprisoned. And I felt his despair and I felt the hope when Beverley started to believe him and the rage at what happened to her and so on. And when he went ice fishing with Jack and was like, "We're going to fucking get him," and when he told Freddie that there was no way he would forget what happened to Abigail, I was like "YEAAAHHH HANNIBAL YOU ARE GOING TO GET YOUR COMEUPPANCE." I was in it like %100 GO WILL.

It was awesome, and bolstered by awesome supporting characters like the fake orderly and Margot and Mason, all of whom were just so perfectly captivating with their every line and gesture.

Up until Will phoned Hannibal to warn him, which we've discussed previously, and I now (after that discussion and subsequent episodes) understand the reality of the show to have been different than I was seeing. But I still see my version superimposed in a double exposure over this other show - I see the Will of S2 as fully aware and in control and %100 motivated by "I'm going to catch this monster, for Beverley and Abigail and myself." I get that this Will was not the whole Will or the true Will-as-intended-by-the-show, but I was so invested in him that I can't help but still feel like the show was in line with my interpretation and then pivoted hard somewhere. To be clear, I don't think that really happened, I don't think the pivot was really there, but it really feels that was to me, still. And I think that's how a lot of people felt, but that point of view has been derided a bit here, which is cool because you guys are enthusiastic and I love it.

And when I compare to all the glorious moments of s2, I feel like s3 wasn't there. Mason stabbing Hannibal's chair. Hannibal's coin-flipping with Bella, the scene where Will confronts Mason (holy shit, Mason's laughter in that scene!), Hannibal strung up by Mason, Hannibal attacked by Mason's thugs, every damn scene with Margot, the scene where the fake orderly makes himself known to Will, the scene where the fake orderly confronts Hannibal, every scene where Beverley's trust of Will increments, Will's rage at the horse guy's social worker because of the parallels of his own manipulation by Hannibal, the whole fandom realizing at the same time that we loved Chilton... I could go on. I loved pretty much every piece of dialogue in every scene.

And then s3 was like:

Pazzi: I am a knot becoming undone.
Jack: Better to become unknotted than to be cut.
Pazzi: Is Will Graham cut, or untied? What God does he pray to?
Jack: Hannibal is the weight tied to Will Graham, keeping him from flying.
Bedelia: *sinks into tub*
Hannibal: *watches from upstairs*

??? ???

I liked it. I liked the ending and also hope the show gets renewed. I loved the moment when Will and Hannibal's eyes met before they killed Francis. But the best thing about s3? Hands down, for me: the "catching Hannibal with the power of rhyme" hamibal video.

So to sum up, YES. I am totally stoked that %99 of you are loving every second of it, still. It's great. I wish I also got to see the resolution of the story I thought I was watching, though, because it was like my absolute favorite thing.
posted by neuromodulator at 11:23 AM on August 30, 2015 [9 favorites]


I too feel like S3 occasionally lost the plot a little too much. S2 is, to me, certainly the sweet spot. The first season took a while to break away from the genre conventions that kept it from its...becoming. I do think much of that early procedural stuff was deliberate; the first season was basically a 13-hour horror movie about Dracula invading the FBI, so it began as something like a CSI spinoff that gradually revealed itself as a David Cronenberg film. But once all that setup was out of the way, S2 was free to get really fucking bizarre. But! Only as bizarre as it could get while retaining some facade of being a standard thriller, just as Dr. Lecter had to retain his own facade. This meant the episodes still required some structure, some walls to bounce all of the outlandish ideas off of. I think this was a good thing for the show, and I also think it was inevitable that all of those walls would fall by the end of the season. They had to. But it meant that S3 was a little more weird and formless, which was sometimes great and sometimes...ponderous.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 11:56 AM on August 30, 2015 [7 favorites]


Even though I am unreasonably gaga over this show and it's hard for me to be objective, I definitely agree that season 2 was more cohesive and on the whole better. I can point to way more things in season 3 that I think could have been handled better - Pazzi's heel-turn, Chiyoh's entire existence, Alana and Jack continuing to underestimate Hannibal even at this late stage, the way the Red Dragon narrative didn't completely fit with what the show had become after 2.5 seasons.

Much of what I did like about season 3 is different from what I like about season 2, and so I'm totally unsurprised that some people didn't care for it. The way they cranked the artsiness up to 11 - I know that turned a lot of people off, but the way they played with time and reality in the first four episodes was, I thought, amazing.

And regarding Will - the reason his character continues to work for me is, I don't think he ever forgot what Hannibal was, and I don't think he forgot his own humanity either. That's why he tried to kill Hannibal twice (and possibly succeeded at the end). It's not just a straightforward "Will is bad now" thing - Will knows he's damaged beyond repair, and is still trying to work within the context of that damage to end Hannibal.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:03 PM on August 30, 2015 [8 favorites]


I like that way of framing it, s_l. I'm just troubled by the idea that he wanted Chilton hurt.
posted by neuromodulator at 12:07 PM on August 30, 2015


I see that as a subconscious thing, and also as the final thing that made Will realize he needed Hannibal and possibly also himself to die - because he wasn't behaving like a person anymore.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:13 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I definitely wouldn't assume that everyone here loved every single second of S3. Was it perfect, to me? No. Was there something brilliant and thrilling and rapturously artistic, emotionally engaging, and just plain entertaining in each episode and the whole season experience? Yup. And a show that constantly attempts and consistently achieves that gets a lot of latitude from me for occasionally goofing or exceeding its grasp.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:31 PM on August 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


I never, not for one second, assumed that we were expected to take anything in the post credit scene at face value. There's just no way any possible explanation for what we're seeing makes sense, other than that what we're seeing is a metaphor, a vision of the fate that Bedell is left dreading.

The first half of the season was a huge letdown for me, but I loved every minute of the Red Dragon episodes.
posted by webmutant at 12:39 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


I loved every minute of the Red Dragon episodes.

I generally liked them, and they definitely felt like a return to form after the first half of the season, but I felt like the Red Dragon story itself could have used some more procedural bits. I felt like the actual investigation portion of it was a bit under-baked.
posted by neuromodulator at 12:42 PM on August 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


I feel like the bar for Will "losing his humanity" or "not behaving like a person" is a lot lower than it is for the other characters.

Chilton medically tortures Gideon for two years? When Will convinces him that Hannibal has been medically torturing him, tries to conspire with Hannibal? Chilton hasn't been behaving like a person basically since we've met him.

Jack? Is now up to a ratio of sacrificing 200 agents for the possibility of saving 1 civilian life. Hasn't behaved like a human since we met him either.

Freddie lies on the witness stand to try to get Will the death penalty, out of some ableist dogma that anyone who thinks deviant thoughts should be executed? Breaks into his property and tries to shoot him while he's unarmed? What a precious cinnamon roll, too good for this world.

Alana? "Accidentally" sets up murder and mayhem wherever she goes, and not once does butter melt in her mouth. Colludes with a sadistic pedophile to sell her ex-boyfriend into torture and murder, on the flimsy excuse that she'll call the cops on him just in time. Then, murders said sadistic paedophile by holding him under water so an eel will swim into his mouth - but not before raping him while unconscious to retrieve sperm which she will use to conceive a baby solely for monetary gain. And the worst part is that she STARTED acting like a person when she started doing these things.

Yeah, those are all very unfair interpretations. However, so is the common fanon interpretation that Will turned Chiyoh into a killer by freeing the prisoner she had been torturing for decades. Because being a torturer is completely respectable and honourable. But you know, Chiyoh says it was Will that forced her to become a killer and therefore he is exactly like Hannibal. Will says he didn't want that to happen, but you can't believe a word he says, whereas you can always believe every single word any other character says against him. Including that he's "not very handsome". Dude's not only subhuman, he's hideous with it.

The trouble is, this is a world in which nobody can do anything right. I mean they literally can't.
posted by tel3path at 12:42 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


I find the first half of the season easier to accept when I take at face value Hannibal's declaration "let it be a fairy tale". A fairy tale set in Hannibal's memory palace. And set in marked contrast to the "back to reality" atmosphere of episode 8.

There's a good explanation here. Apparently, Hannibal's mental landscape has the same laws of physics as Toontown, which explains a hell of a lot about him. Also, here is a definitive explanation of Chiyoh, who bugged a lot of people.

A depiction of Hannibal's mental landscape is going to be fucking weird, and also experimental, because if he really is this unique unprecedented type of human it's going to take a unique unprecedented kind of storytelling to really get that across. Which is a risk, and you know... risks are risky. It wasn't going to work for everyone. But I tried watching your various bog standard TV mysteries a few times this week, and I just couldn't any more.
posted by tel3path at 1:13 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm just sitting here taking notes for something tentatively titled "interview with an empath"
posted by The Whelk at 1:22 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I still can't quite read Will - is he also in love or was he using Hannibal's love to kill him

Both/and? Will evaded directly answering Bedelia when she said "can't live with Hannibal, can't live without him, is that what this is?" because that is what it is. I suspect he wanted a bunch of contradictory things, for a bunch of contradictory reasons, but an attempt at murder/suicide fulfilled enough of them for enough time at the right moment to for him to be able to act on it. To remove Hannibal from the world For Good (tm)*; to end himself too because he was losing the fight with his darker urges/with his desire to be with Hannibal (and was afraid might succumb completely if he didn't act right away); to fulfill what had become a geas; to complete his Becoming (as per Hannibal encouraging Will to fantasize about killing him** in Season 2 as part of his campaign to bring out the killer in Will); to kill himself & Hannibal because in the heat of the moment the only thing more romantic than a shared murder-consummation is a murder-suicide; perhaps even to indulge those other impulses while keeping open some option for escape/survival because through Murder Husband Telepathy/ridiculously multilayered conversations regarding bluffs he knew it might be possible.

Will states that Hannibal's capable of pursuing a bunch of very independent trains of thought simultaneously, and I'd argue that's very true of Will, too. He's anything but a binary thinker. Although in his case, it's not always clear to me how many of his plans are conscious/thought out in the way Hannibal's are, and how much is instinctive/unconscious (but just as real), and of course he and Hannibal are both great improvisers. Without the handy cliff, though, and the opportunity for a quick and simple and irrevocable attempt at death that it offered, I'm not sure Will would have been able to bring himself to act, or that other motivations wouldn't have submerged the doing-good ones, at least for a while. It's tempting, at points, to frame Will as an avenging angel or Hannibal 2.0, but a lot of what makes him interesting (to me at least) is that he is or at least genuinely has the ability to be both.

*Even here, I do think that it's important to distinguish Will's very real desire to do right/rid the world of a menace/etc. from his need to do it in a very personal way. If Hannibal's death by any means possible were the main goal, I'm not convinced that Death By Cuddles And Cliffs was, in fact, the only way to do it - especially since, as Alana pointed out earlier in the season, there's a lot of collateral damage when Will and Hannibal get involved. (Hell, he could have just stood back and let Dolarhyde, the lesser monster, finish Hannibal (and yeah, possibly Will too) and had faith that the FBI would (eventually) catch the Dragon.) Had Dolarhyde not interrupted the staged breakout and had things gone perfectly according to the FBI's plans, I have trouble imagining Will standing back and letting anyone else kill Hannibal (any more than the reverse.) As it turned out, he still couldn't let Dolarhyde do it; he was reaching for a weapon when Dolarhyde turned and stabbed his cheek. While doing good is definitely part of his intent, even if you ignore any broader allure that killing and/or Hannibal have for him, there are too many layers to his motivations to attribute his actions solely to doing good.

**And perhaps this is something he couldn't quite have succeeded at until he stepped beyond the veil.
posted by ubersturm at 1:51 PM on August 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


In summary . . .
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:00 PM on August 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


So yeah, just reading that thing with BF where he talks about Will having to do the cliff jump because of his awareness at the beginning of the season that if he doesn't end Hannibal he's in danger of becoming him.

So I just realized the full interpretation of Alana going to see Chilton and saying she wanted to remind herself "of what Hannibal can do".

He has to spell it out for her, that it's only Hannibal's doing in the sense that Alana has, herself, become Hannibal.

I mean all that symbolism wasn't for nothing. The mirror image office and cell. The Hannibalesque suits. Her trying to take on the persona of the Big Bad at the very start of the season.

Like, I know Alana thought, with good reason, that she had to be Hannibal's keeper, and I know she thought - as Chiyoh put it regarding herself - that she wasn't as malleable as Will. That she was impervious to Hannibal's influence.
posted by tel3path at 2:25 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh god, someone on AV Club said that the Tattlecrime headline is gonna be: HANNIBAL THE CANNIBAL & THRILL-KILL WILL YANK THE TOOTH FAIRY
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:26 PM on August 30, 2015 [7 favorites]


And it's like I said - in the second half of the season she's progressed, whenever she's been in Hannibal's cell, from white suits to grey suits and finally to black suits - she has become Hannibal's shadow, somehow.

There's something else distinct about the symbolism of red, white and black with Alana this season compared to previously but I have to look up a thing to fully explain it.
posted by tel3path at 2:28 PM on August 30, 2015


I can't believe I just paid five dollars purely for the privilege of sharing my extremely important Hannibal thoughts with a throng of uncaring strangers, but I did, and here is one of them.

The only promise I was afraid they would fail to deliver on was the one Bedelia made to Will (you know the one: "Has he ever tried to persuade you to kill anyone? He will, and it will be somebody that you love, and you will think it is the only choice you have. "

BUT THEY DID. HE DID, AND IT WAS, AND HE DID THINK SO. I swear I thought they had, not forgotten, but indefinitely deferred it. but they didn't.
posted by queenofbithynia at 2:40 PM on August 30, 2015 [26 favorites]


Okay, here are some more thoughts now that I've had to chance to re-watch the episode in HD, as opposed to the blurry laptop live feed viewing of Thursday night.

- I love snarky Hannibal, and he's in rare form this episode. Especially the, "You worry too much, Will" and "Going my way?" lines. Also the mic drop comment.

- Will's "Meat's back on the menu" comment to Bedelia is pretty wonderfully snarky as well.

- In my head canon, Hannibal's first thought when Dolarhyde shoots him and shatters the wine bottle is, "How rude. That was one of my favorite vintages."

-Also in my head canon, Will standing there watching Hannibal bleed out on the floor is thinking, "Well, that escalated quickly."

-More head canon Hannigram thoughts:

Hannibal: "Was it good to see me?"
Will: "Good? No." [head canon Will: It was disturbing, erotic, confusing, confusingly and disturbingly erotic. I'm all set on nightmare and masturbatory material for the next three years.]

"When life becomes maddeningly polite, think about me." [head canon Hannibal: Think about me ripping your clothes off, and having my way with you.]

Will: "I need you, Hannibal." [Head canon Will and Hannibal, simultaneously: in bed.]
(Oh god, now I can't help adding "in bed" to all these scenes)

- I understand in the broader narrative how that last scene is totally hot murder sex for the Murder Husbands, but I'm mildly concerned about the fact that I found it quite erotic on re-watch. Of course, on first watch, I was too busy flailing to have any coherent feelings aside from the previously mentioned MAKEOUT MAKEOUT MAKEOUT.

- Okay, about the post credits scene: I'm now fully converted to the view point that if the Bedelia scene is literal, then it's the murder husbands who did it. Of course, Bryan Fuller's tweet seemed to confirm that. However, my wild card theory is that maybe that's happening in Hannibal's mind. And of course, if that's the case, he and Will are definitely having a quickie in the kitchen.

- Based on the scene where they hatch up their plan, it seems like Will hasn't shared the details of his run in with the Dragon with Jack. Does Will think that Jack wouldn't trust the plan if Will told him that Dolarhyde made the request himself?

- Bedelia's angry, breath-y rant can only be fully appreciated on a big screen TV. Her face is definitely a mix of anger, fear, and a touch of resignation.

- It must really suck to draw the short end of the stick and be the one forced to ride in the back of the transport vehicle with the convicts. That never seems to end well for them.
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:42 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


I can't believe I just paid five dollars purely for the privilege of sharing my extremely important Hannibal thoughts with a throng of uncaring strangers, but I did, and here is one of them.

Oh, but we care, WE CARE!!!!!!!!!
posted by Pendragon at 2:51 PM on August 30, 2015 [8 favorites]


We care deeply about you, dear whatsyourname. Welcome to the fandom.
posted by tel3path at 2:53 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


We're always excited to eat new people.
posted by tel3path at 2:55 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


Meat. Meat new people.
posted by tel3path at 2:55 PM on August 30, 2015 [11 favorites]


Francis not only broke the window; he destroyed a very lovely expensive bottle of RED wine that undoubtedly RUINED Hannibal's bespoke shoes and his vintage or exotic wood floor! (And punctured H's intestines in the process, but priorities.)

How. rude.


Oh, I see someone totally beat me to this thought! That's what I get for posting before reading back through the 200 some odd comments that have accrued since I last checked this thread.
posted by litera scripta manet at 2:55 PM on August 30, 2015


DAMN AUTOCORRECT
posted by tel3path at 2:55 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


And: You watch it and think that Will led Jack and the rest of them around by means of an insultingly low yet accurate estimation of their intelligence and perception and that they should have recognized, if not that Will had had a secret rendezvous and agreement with Dolarhyde, at least that he knew something he wasn't telling: what a bunch of dumb jerks, right. But then you go back and hear Jack lay out the plan, and Will did actually carry out that plan to the letter. First we kill the Dragon, and then we kill Hannibal. even to the "we", that's what he did.

plus: one more reason among the many reasons that Hannibal was never going to offer Francis any real respect or peer-to-peer counseling is that their arts are polar opposites in an important way to do with time and memory, the things Hannibal cares most about: cooking is the most ephemeral of the fine arts, even more so than music, his second love (and fashion is, too); a meal lives only in the memory of those who consume it and even great art about cooking is about that fact (Babette's Feast and the like.) it's why everything he does is about the audience, the third party; he's not making an art that you can trust to posterity to rediscover and appreciate.

But poor Francis can't put down his camera long enough to really concentrate on the moment - he has no faith in his animal nature, he can't trust that anything he does has a meaning outside his own diligent craft to preserve it. Nothing is real if not recorded. it's part and parcel with his many other control issues. I think Hannibal would have profound aesthetic objection to that kind of plodding, monomanaical murder mentality. The most upsetting of his kills are the least apparently premeditated (Professor Sogliato); there is no windy space between thought and action. Francis doesn't have the kind of virtuosity that allows for that kind of grace; he hasn't put in the ten thousand hours of practice murders yet and it shows.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:04 PM on August 30, 2015 [11 favorites]


Hi, queenofbithynia. According to MATH, every new person who joins this throng helps spread out the cumulative freakishness among more bodies, so that we're all individually a tiny bit less freaky. That's my story, and I'm sticking to it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:07 PM on August 30, 2015


Looking at the season as a whole, I have to say, even though the first half of season 3 was very different than the first two seasons, I still really enjoyed it, in all it's artsy, wandering glory.

I think the second half of the season dragged a bit for me. It might just be because I'm not familiar with the rest of the Hannibal canon beyond this TV show. There were some great scenes, lots of great lines, and some really amazing acting (particular shout out to Reba, Dolarhyde, Chilton, and of course Queen of the Queens, Bedelia), but some of the earlier, silent Dolarhyde scenes just weren't that gripping, especially in the first two episodes of this arc. I did really enjoy all of the scenes shared between Dolarhyde and Reba, and of course, I savored every Hannigram moment.

Also, I think I'm going to have to re-watch the "Hannibal and Will get into a cop car" scene like a million times. I love it so much.
posted by litera scripta manet at 3:10 PM on August 30, 2015


Does Will think that Jack wouldn't trust the plan if Will told him that Dolarhyde made the request himself?


Will's plan all along was to let the Dragon kill Hannibal (although I doubt he'd collude on the police slaughter; that was Francis jumping the gun). Francis would never have just let Will go on some vague "Gee I'd like to meet Hannibal" premise. They cooked it up between them, Will waited until the FBI discovered the fakeout, and then he sold Jack on the plan and let Jack believe (or choose to believe) that the whole dumb trap would work when that was never part of his actual game.

And then the three murderboys all sort of double-crossed each other a bit as they all expected, but hey, it worked out in the end. Fuller says Will wanted Francis to kill Hannibal because he wasn't sure he could go through with it himself. I think the beauty and joy he felt in the consummation helped Will be able to finish it since he couldn't let himself have more MurderDates but knew he'd crave them.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:16 PM on August 30, 2015


According to MATH, every new person who joins this throng helps spread out the cumulative freakishness among more bodies, so that we're all individually a tiny bit less freaky.

I think I might have messed up that math a bit, since I only joined this Hannigram band wagon at the tail end of this season, and I'm pretty sure my contributions to the how to cook a leg discussion upped the freakiness factor by a power of ten.

I'm just glad no one was actually here to watch me spend 15 minutes trying to shove my lower body into an oven or gnawing on my own arm. Other than the dog, but at least she's not going to tell anyone.
posted by litera scripta manet at 3:18 PM on August 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


aaaaand the last thing is:

as long as they were going to ride the murder=sex train all the way to the end of the line, I think one of the best things they did was hammer so hard on the way Hannibal's ideas about his own murders are just as incoherent as other men's ideas about sex. Is killing someone and eating them the ultimate way to display contempt ("eat the rude,"), the thing you do to people who are essentially beneath you which is also the very thing that proves they are beneath you? That you can do nearly indiscriminately to/with people you have very little personal connection to, and congratulate yourself on having found the one use for them, the one thing they're actually good for? (Yes.) Or is it the most holy union of souls and the perfect consummation reserved for the only one you love, who is also the only one of Them who is worthy of respect and affection, because you want them, which makes them better than all the rest of their kind? (Yes.) But you can only do it once, because after that they're not a virgin anymore and the drive to conquer is finished and spent (also they are dead).

Hannibal has the biggest murder madonna/whore complex in THE WORLD and I don't even know if it's supposed to be a blind spot in his own self-awareness or just something he is self-satisfiedly aware of and has no problems with, the way men are who are like that about sex. either way, it's neat.
posted by queenofbithynia at 3:19 PM on August 30, 2015 [21 favorites]


In one of the interviews Fuller suggests that there is a certain amount of fluidity in the post-credit scene and mentions that it might be Uncle Robert (David Bowie). Can anyone more knowledgable about the books talk about if Uncle Robert was also a cannibal type? (Runs in the family?)
posted by PussKillian at 3:21 PM on August 30, 2015


I'm pretty sure my contributions to the how to cook a leg discussion upped the freakiness factor by a power of ten.

That's like my favorite part of the thread, not least because I cackled so hard I (temporarily) stopped crying. If a group of weirdos can't sit around in the middle of the night doing practical cannibalism experiments, what's the point in living?
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:21 PM on August 30, 2015 [6 favorites]


the cleaning bills on the Murder-Sex train are outrageous.
posted by The Whelk at 3:28 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


If a group of weirdos can't sit around in the middle of the night doing practical cannibalism experiments, what's the point in living?

You're totally right. The beauty of the internet is that you can find other people who will share in your cannibalism for SCIENCE experiments.

I love you guys. I love this show.

HANNIGRAM 4ever <3

FANNIBALS 4 LIFE

Actually, even the dog has become something of a fannibal. On a couple of occasions I've caught her eagerly watching this show. She seems to particularly enjoy the Will/Bedelia and Hannigram scenes, and really, who can blame her?
posted by litera scripta manet at 3:34 PM on August 30, 2015


I do not recall anyone in Hannibal's family being a cannibal in the books. But I had forgotten that there was a prospect, however unlikely, of getting Bowie into a future season and now I'm in mourning all over again.

My partner is so grateful that you all helped me think through the leg cooking logistics so I would stop making him participate in that conversation.
posted by Stacey at 3:34 PM on August 30, 2015 [5 favorites]


The only promise I was afraid they would fail to deliver on was the one Bedelia made to Will (you know the one: "Has he ever tried to persuade you to kill anyone? He will, and it will be somebody that you love, and you will think it is the only choice you have. "

BUT THEY DID. HE DID, AND IT WAS, AND HE DID THINK SO.


Oh wow. Wow. This fucking show. Also, I profoundly appreciate queenof bithynia and all you other brainiacs constantly plopping down brilliant insights like they're nothing and pointing out all these connections and things I would otherwise miss. And I'm a fucking professional literary critic, for god's sake.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:34 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


Although a meh one, and I kind of swore all that off once I got job security. In short, I should be fired.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:41 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I just can't handle the thought of this being the actual final end to this series. I'm okay with a miniseries or feature film, or films for TV, and I'm willing to wait a long while, but it just kills me to think we won't get to see any more of this show. My life will be forever lacking if I don't get to see Will and Hannibal run off together to Argentina. Or Prague. Or Antarctica.

Of course either way, we're in for a long wait. I hope this finale spawns a million fanfics. Just in the time since I first watched the finale on Thursday, I've devoted more hours than I would care to admit to reading a sizeable portion of the offerings currently on AO3.

And on that note, if anyone has fanfic recs, please share!
posted by litera scripta manet at 3:41 PM on August 30, 2015


Of course, I'll also be diving into Hannibal Rising soon, but I need a bit more time to recover from this episode first.
posted by litera scripta manet at 3:43 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Of course. One week to recover. Then it's a chapter a day.

If it seems too hard, if you're too appalled by what you're reading - remember Hannibal carried Will bridal-style 31 fucking miles on foot in the snow while branded and after having been strung up and tortured for hours.

If he can do that, we can jolly well read a chapter a day of Hannibal Rising.
posted by tel3path at 3:45 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]



And on that note, if anyone has fanfic recs, please share!


There are SO. MANY well written fics out there (Our fandom is a VERY LITERARY FANDOM) but I'll start by tooting my own (and tel3path's ) horn with

Problems From Everyday Life - Season One if it took place via Ask Metafilter
posted by The Whelk at 3:55 PM on August 30, 2015 [7 favorites]


Oh golly yes, Problems From Everyday Life is one of those "100 things to read before you die [possibly, immediately before]" works.
posted by tel3path at 4:10 PM on August 30, 2015


The finale was glorious. The entire episode was tense, it was funny, and the ending actually meant something (even being undercut by the haha surprise, Hannibal is still alive bit).

I totally read the post-credits scene wrong, in part because mid-watch ausdemfenster deduced/predicted two endings for the show and one of them was Bedelia furiously gnawing at her arm when Hannibal showed up to kill her.

I'm not sure what Bedelia y'all have been watching but to me she seems to have not really recovered. Like, she used all her energy on surviving being with Hannibal and needs to coast for a while. Which for her and normal life is entirely workable. But with Hannibal free everything changes. She's amazing, but everyone has a breaking point.

Due to the hyperreality of the show I could buy that Bedelia cut and cooked her own leg - as much as I could buy Hannibal surviving the fall and doing many of the art murders he did - since I could see motivation in it. And the idea that Bedelia cooked herself as a one-up on/insult to Hannibal makes sense to me on that front.

Bedelia hears Hannibal has escaped. She expects that he is going to come for her. She's not Alana; she's not going to run. But wanted to go out her way, either in a Bluebeard's final wife-esque way with poison or a more desperate "I'll show you how to eat me bastard."

Except that she got stood up; Hannibal instead went to his ocean-view murder chalet with Will.

[I saw the script page and the leg roast sketches and understand that I misread the situation, but without those external notes from the creator I find my reading to make more sense].


Oh, and the second predicted ending was that Hannibal and Will go Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid over the cliff so.
posted by mountmccabe at 4:18 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


oh and it might be audience self-selection but there where 4 Hannibal shirts being worn at the Morbid Anatomy flea market.
posted by The Whelk at 4:22 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


(in that I think the kind of person who goes to shop for knives made of deer bone and taxidermy under glass MIGHT be more likely to the be fans of the show)
posted by The Whelk at 4:23 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Okay, just got out of the shower, and of course, I spent my time in the shower contemplating this show. Here are some more stray thoughts:

I know that the show is mostly filmed in Canada, and I think Fuller mentioned that the cliff shots were filmed in Newfoundland, but is there actually anywhere on the east coast within a few hours of Baltimore that would look remotely like that? I've spent my whole life living on the east coast, although I've mainly spent my time way below or way above the Mason-Dixon line, and I know there are definitely mountains inland, but I'm curious if there are places around there which would look remotely like that, or if this is just one of those "willing suspension of disbelief" moments.

Also, as far as Hannibal's final threats to Alana, I have no doubt that he fully intends to kill and feast on Alana if he ever has the chance, but when he says, "Your wife, your child, all belong to me," I assume that could be taken as him threatening to kill all three of them. I'm curious if anyone else feels this way, but I'm inclined to believe that Hannibal probably wouldn't go out of his way to kill Margot or their son. I know he was happy to see Mason get killed (after all, Mason is as rude as they get), but I think he kind of liked Margot, as much as he likes anyone whose name isn't Will Graham.

And as for their son, have we ever gotten any hints about what Hannibal (at least this incarnation) thinks about children? I'm also inclined to believe he wouldn't kill the son, especially since I don't remember any references to him killing children previously. Honestly, I only really see him killing Margot or the kid if for some reason he decides to do that before killing Alana, in which case it would just be a way for him to torture her.

I don't know, maybe little kids just aren't that tasty. They do run around an awful lot. Or maybe there's not enough meat? I guess if Hannibal is a particularly vindictive mood he might give the little Verger baby the veal treatment.

Or, maybe, since Hannibal thinks Margot and the kid belong to him, he'll decide to steal the kid, so that he and Will can raise it together. After all, with those Verger genes, he probably has some latent sadistic streak that could be nurtured.

Either way, I feel really terrible for poor Margot. She spent the first part of her life at the mercy of her sadistic brother, and now she'll probably spend the rest of her life in fear of her wife's crazy cannibal ex-mentor/ex-fuck buddy. She really should have found a different wife/surrogate. Even though she did some not so nice things in the past, I really get the sense that Margot only did those things because she felt like she didn't have any viable options, and now she probably just wants to settle down and raise her kid in as normal an environment as she possibly can.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:55 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ugh, also, I'm having such a hard time reading the various reviews and interviews that have been posted, because every time I read the words "series finale" or see someone talking about "since this is most likely the end of the series" or any variation on that theme, I feel like I've been stabbed in the face, shot in the gut, and thrown off a cliff, and I don't even get the satisfaction of having a sexy, bloody murder husband to plummet over the cliff with me.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:15 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


So I'm thinking that one of the themes being explored this season is responsibility and the limits of who can be responsible for what.

In episode 4, we had Chilton coming to jeer at Alana, and also recruit her. This is what he says to her (paraphrasing):

CHILTON: How many bones did you break?
ALANA: You say that like I broke them.

I.e. I was attacked, this was done to me, you are victim-blaming. Chilton comes at that with a strong argument:

CHILTON: You got yourself to that window, if not through it.

"You got yourself to that window" i.e. you made the series of mistakes that got you into position to be attacked, and "if not through it" - i.e. Abigail was your patient, therefore you are partially responsible for the outcome.

The prevailing wordview in the fandom for most of the first two seasons was that Alana's mistakes were really Hannibal's mistakes. As Hannibal himself says, "I worked very hard to blind you". And every single thing every character says about every other character is always true, right? We know Will is not very handsome, because Dolarhyde said so. Case closed.

But if we're going to assign Alana that little agency, where does it end? If whatever Alana did was really Hannibal's doing, then why praise her for taking in Will's dogs? Shouldn't that praise rightly go to Hannibal, since it was really Hannibal who took the dogs in using Alana's mindless body as his proxy? Or are we going to protest that everything good in Alana belongs to Alana and everything bad in Alana belongs to Hannibal?

As uncomfortable as victim-blaming makes me, it still raises the question of whose victim Alana actually was. Abigail's? But Abigail was Alana's patient and Hannibal's behaviour towards her raised several red flags before we were even halfway through season 1. And is it enough to say that Abigail was merely a bodily proxy for Hannibal at the point when she pushed Alana through the window? I think so, yes. Abigail was Hannibal's victim, but Alana's professional loyalties were divided between Abigail as the patient, and the FBI as the client. In the end, she failed both as her personal loyalties were always with Hannibal, making Abigail a victim of her incompetence. Getting pushed out the window was the endpoint of that failure.

Now, they invite Chilton to join in on their plan to bait the Ripper. For profiling reasons - Chilton is not the father of a family - they probably think he is less at risk and that Will is going to be the real target of the Tooth Fairy's rage. It's also true that Chilton is, or should be, fully aware that he's sticking his neck out by participating in this. I mean, he does get two (or more!) armed guards. But the thing he's not aware of is how his supposed colleagues see him, which is why he's so shocked at Hannibal's article refuting his book. And when he turns around, there's Alana, who is offering him what he sees as a chance to redeem himself professionally a little bit. Whereas from Alana's point of view, she literally announced "Only a fool would agree to do something this dangerous, therefore I am going to get Chilton." And as she speaks to him, she is literally entertained by the idea of putting him in harm's way. And yet - as stated earlier - Chilton lucidly agreed to take the risk. The fact that Alana was flaunting her duping delight at the idea of setting him up, and Chilton is saying "you set me up", doesn't factually mean that Alana is really to blame for Dolarhyde shooting all Chilton's armed guards and yanking him out of the car like a cane yanking a Vaudeville performer off stage. She might have wanted him to get hurt (or more kindly, wanted to enjoy the idea of his potentially getting hurt - but, you know, this is the third time and with a pattern you can prove intent) but you can't make things happen just by wanting them. As for Will - as Whelk emphasized upthread, blaming Will for putting his hand on Chilton is an incredibly weak line of reasoning that has more to do with bullying than causality.

The actual person to blame for the attack on Chilton is Dolarhyde, but there's... emotionally, not much point in blaming him because they all know villains gotta villain - that's why it's their collective job to stop villains from villaining! And boy did they screw up, and Chilton blames them for it - but it's really just as much his screwup as theirs.

And then, most interestingly and tellingly of all, we have Alana approaching Chilton and saying it's because she wanted to remind herself of what HANNIBAL can do. All this after, last week, she made a feeble attempt to say to Hannibal "you did this" and Hannibal pushes it right back to her. And here she is again, making the same assertion! Like, Hannibal is a schemer all right, and the first thing you should think of when anything goes wrong within 12 hops of Hannibal is "I wonder if Hannibal did this" - but, you know, sometimes it will turn out that he didn't. Chilton accuses Alana of having incorporated Hannibal's values - but is that something that's changed over the three seasons from his point of view? Take Hannibal out of the equation, and Alana and Chilton are still re-enacting Lucy and the Football, with Chilton as the football.

[As an aside, the whole "let's offer Hannibal a deal and then extrajudicially execute him" feels dirty in a way that "law enforcement is a dead loss, I personally have to kill Hannibal because he's personally a danger to me and everyone connected to me" doesn't. I.e. I have a problem with the FBI conspiracy to kill Hannibal but no problem with Will killing Hannibal because he believes it's his own responsibility.]

Anyway... yeah it's late and I'm tired and I was driving at something but I've forgotten it.
posted by tel3path at 5:15 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


I don't remember any references to him killing children previously

Marissa Schuur.

Abigail may have been 19 by the time Hannibal actually killed her.
posted by tel3path at 5:18 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


And every single thing every character says about every other character is always true, right?

Oh yeah. It beggared belief how readily people took Hannibal's word for it that Alana 'could never have understood him.' But I think it was even more frustrating that people took it at face value that she was asking a question to which she wanted to know the factual answer. Psych people don't ask questions of that nature to find out what the answer is, as if that's a question to which the facts can be known; they ask to find out what the patient thinks the answer is. She asked that question to find out what Hannibal thought she was capable of, or -- and? -- what Hannibal thought she wanted to hear. And on the basis of his satisfactory answer, she let him out.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:23 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


In response to upthread: It's not clear to me where exactly the house was, or what body of water the cliff overlooked, but there are certainly mountains in Virginia and it isn't too unbelievable. However, I can't help but feel that Will and Hannibal actually took a swan dive into the opening credits of the original Dark Shadows.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:06 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


As for Maryland geography where one could jump into the sea, we have

Calvert Cliffs (approx. 1.5 hours from Baltimore)

Cliffs on the Eastern shore (approx 2 hours from Baltimore)

Wildcat point in Cecil county (approx 1 hour from Baltimore).

There are some real tony places along the Susquehanna that I could see Hannibal having his hidey-hole. Either that or along the bay in Annapolis.
posted by frecklefaerie at 6:33 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


I haven't put together these thoughts much, but I've been thinking a lot about how this show is constantly doing two things at once and at times how it's difficult to sort them out. There's so much emphasis on therapy and the deeper, less examined motives doing most of the driving of the plot that sometimes contradict the actual, logical plot. For example, if you look at the whole plan that unfolds here, with the interview laying the trap for the Red Dragon, you can see two things happening simultaneously: the three of them actually thinking the plan will work and also knowing that it will fail. I feel like it's the police procedural world of Harris bumping up against the grand guginol world of Fuller. You have supposedly logical FBI things happening but if you push at the logic even a little bit it all comes apart because we're in a world of weird emotional stuff where logic doesn't exist, it's all Milton and murder wizardry. And that can be frustrating, especially since we started out in a more police procedural world where stuff made sense, more or less, but at some point it all got left behind and it turned into Lucifer enacting his plans on a mostly helpless world.

It's great if you keep your expectations in the opera zone, but I admit that every once in a while the murder wizardry got a bit much for me, and I think that's where my wish that the show ended with the fall over the cliff comes from. Because at this rate Lecter might as well have sprouted dragon wings and sailed out over the sea carrying Will in his arms (I'm sure there's fanart of this already) and he will kill and eat everybody in the world and nobody is safe. Because if Will and Hannibal are both alive and Will is now supposed to be Hannibal's jailer, he's a pretty crap one if he's abetting some Bedelia-eating. (Unless Will thinks Bedelia deserves it and this is a last hurrah before the people-eating is given up?) And if he's Hannibal's full partner than his fall into evil is an interesting story of the descent of a soul into darkness but I don't know where we'd be if there was a next season.
posted by PussKillian at 6:34 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


the idea that Bedelia cooked herself as a one-up on/insult to Hannibal makes sense to me on that front.

I love the idea of her insulting him through cooking herself, possibly extremely badly

"oh hi Hams, yeah i cut off my leg and made some white-castle-inspired sliders out of it, they've been sitting in the steamer for like, 4, 5 hours now. don't worry, there's plenty of ranch on them to keep them moist"
posted by Greg Nog at 6:36 PM on August 30, 2015 [16 favorites]


Oh yay, as I hoped, Fuller says Lee Pace is the front-runner for Jame Gumb if there ever is a Season 5 or whatever.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:51 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


I love the idea of her insulting him through cooking herself, possibly extremely badly


That would be amazing.

"Also, I've spent the last month only eating fast food, potato chips, and gummy worms. So, apologies if the meat tastes a little off to start with."

Although I still kind of like the idea of her serving him poisoned "leg de Bedelia" (or would it be du Bedelia? I know like zero French), although I imagine Hannibal is nearly impossible to poison. Between his sense of smell and his keen taste buds, I bet he could taste or smell most poisons, even in small quantities. Although, spraying a lot of obnoxious-smelling perfume and slathering the food in hot sauce/ranch dressing might help lead his senses astray.

Unfortunately I think you would have to choose one or the other option. Either you cook the food terribly so that he doesn't get the satisfaction of eating you, or you cook it well enough to try to poison him. I just don't see him eating overcooked, poorly seasoned meat,* even if it is meat that he's been after for a long time. He would probably just go ahead and chop off your other leg and cook it himself.

*Only situation where that might happen:

He and Will have survived their fall of the cliff, now they're in Argentina or on a beach somewhere. Hannibal is trying to teach Will how to cook, and Will is humoring Hannibal and and very purposefully not asking where exactly this "pork" tenderloin came from.

One day, Will decides to surprise Hannibal by cooking up some "lamb" chops. Unfortunately, Will's cooking skills still leave something to be desired. But Hannibal is never one to be rude, especially to his little lamb, and so when they sit down at the table, Hannibal smiles and says, "My compliments to the chef" while he carefully eats the bland, overcooked meat.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:57 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


I can see Bedelia trying the poisoned flesh gambit, but I cannot see Hannibal falling for it. In fact, have we ever seen him eating someone else's cooking? [searching addled memory]
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:15 PM on August 30, 2015


Nobody on the whole show ever eats anything but Hannibal's cooking. Except for Jack at the Pazzi residence. And I suppose the prisoner eats Chiyoh's pheasant.


And hello everyone. I started watching in July, and have basically been driving myself to the brink with this show for the whole summer, basically. I binged-watched and re-binge-watched, and read every single Fanfare thread, and have been working my way through all the podcasts and recaps and reviews I can find. I have been staying up nights, not eating or sleeping. Totally obsessed. I only wish I had been brave enough to jump in these discussions earlier. I have arranged for at least three other people to also become entangled in this strange and gorgeously abhorrent world and I am sorry/not sorry. I love you all.
posted by fancyoats at 7:24 PM on August 30, 2015 [12 favorites]


queenofbithynia: "I think one of the best things they did was hammer so hard on the way Hannibal's ideas about his own murders are just as incoherent as other men's ideas about sex. Is killing someone and eating them the ultimate way to display contempt ("eat the rude,"), the thing you do to people who are essentially beneath you which is also the very thing that proves they are beneath you? That you can do nearly indiscriminately to/with people you have very little personal connection to, and congratulate yourself on having found the one use for them, the one thing they're actually good for? (Yes.) Or is it the most holy union of souls and the perfect consummation reserved for the only one you love, who is also the only one of Them who is worthy of respect and affection, because you want them, which makes them better than all the rest of their kind? (Yes.) But you can only do it once, because after that they're not a virgin anymore and the drive to conquer is finished and spent (also they are dead)..

Hannibal has the biggest murder madonna/whore complex in THE WORLD and I don't even know if it's supposed to be a blind spot in his own self-awareness or just something he is self-satisfiedly aware of and has no problems with, the way men are who are like that about sex. either way, it's neat."


I know you just now paid to join MetaFilter to post in FanFare, but this kind of comment makes me wish I had paid you to join MetaFilter to post in FanFare.
posted by komara at 8:12 PM on August 30, 2015 [14 favorites]


I've been idly rewatching the first season over the last few days, and I'm struck by how differently this show might have played out if the casting had been completely noncommercial and pitiless. Hugh Dancy, whatever we're told about how socially excludable his character is, is a very conventionally beautiful man. I wonder what the show would have been like if we'd had Will Graham as someone like Toby Jones vs. Hannibal Lecter as an even more photogenic actor like, I don't know, David Bowie 30 years ago.

Don't change anything else, just that casting, and see how much easier it is to accept Will Graham as a sublimated Monster on the verge of hatching. I'm curious what that would look like.
posted by figurant at 8:15 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Figurant, I've always felt that way about the movie Avatar and the aliens. Like, how convenient is it that these aliens are sexually attractive to us, the audience? They should remake Avatar where the natives are all slug creatures just so we all feel uncomfortable when handsome protagonist man starts hooking up with one of them. This is a joke, but I really do kinda want to see my version.
posted by neuromodulator at 8:20 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


I can see Bedelia trying the poisoned flesh gambit, but I cannot see Hannibal falling for it

the only way I could see this working is a long con: she's spent years on lithium &c to build up a tolerance, such that she could survive it when her muscle tissues are literally swimming in the stuff, but that someone who ate her couldn't. (surely Hannibal would think of this possibility, though.)
posted by nicodine at 8:27 PM on August 30, 2015


komara, you are too kind.

& I really do wonder how much of Will's resistance was based in a realistic fear that once he surrendered, Hannibal wouldn't want him anymore, that his appeal was in being susceptible, but only to a point. As delightful as Hugh Dancy is, Will isn't special in very many things, certainly not in his pliability or his ability to find beauty and pleasure in violent death. Hannibal never had any consuming interest in a Tobias or an Abel or a Francis or a Mason or anyone else who lined up at his door, and Abigail he was fond of but not fascinated by, and it's because none of them made him work for it. Isak Dinesen is always a touchstone for me in these sorts of things because I am too lazy to think outside my favorites, but I think of the bit in Seven Gothic Tales about the prince who had had everything in life too cheaply, and fell in love with the proud old maid just because she said no to him and set a higher price on herself than anyone else had ever dared. So -- but how terrible for the one who wants so badly to give in, but can't, because the offer will be withdrawn the moment you move to accept it, how exhausting to have to keep running and denying, just to be pleasing. Will made sure there'd never have to be a morning after.

Although, having said that I think this was one of Will's fears, I think Hannibal pictures himself more in a kind of eternal relation with Will, endlessly chasing him down and tearing him apart and both of them waking up whole in the morning to do it again, so that it's always new, like a couple of constellations moving across the sky with the seasons. Hannibal's is a very Harvard-Classics-five-foot-shelf kind of mind, Dante and Marcus Aurelius and Bach and Botticelli, very traditional and predictable in that way - he would probably find the idea of perfect fidelity to be lovely even though it would not accord with his instincts. probably bore Will silly every day with lectures about the Aristophanes speech from the Symposium I bet.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:58 PM on August 30, 2015 [8 favorites]


I wonder still if Hannibal really understood in the moment that if he had finished sawing Will's skull open and eating his brains, that would have been it, no more toy to play with, or if he had momentarily forgotten that. But maybe so, because, again, he prizes so highly that which exists in a single moment and is preserved only in the mind. His problem is exactly Ned's from Pushing Daisies, come to think of the crushingly obvious.

(which makes Francis, what, the bit of clingfilm that allows the kiss. god I am sick with pity for poor old Francis)
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:17 PM on August 30, 2015 [7 favorites]


One thing I was thinking about as a Season 4 possibility in terms of "reversal" is if Hannibal survived the fight&fall in such a way that he was at least for a time dependent on Will and vulnerable and not himself -- subject to Will's influence as a more powerful and dominant personality, like Will was in the latter half of Season 1. Not in some soap opera amnesia way, but just injured significantly enough in mind or body to have lost his bearings.

Here at the end of S3, Will's obviously Hannibal's equal or more in terms of gamesmanship (in his lowkey Working Mainly for Good way). He completely fooled us all in Digestivo; it's hilarious in retrospect how "poor Will; Hannibal, you bastard" about H's surrender we were in that thread -- not that it's ever inaccurate to call Hannibal a cruel abusive bastard. But Will was totally pulling the strings there , and nobody suspected. Master deception, manipulation, and general mindfuckery. Cunning boy indeed.

Up to now we've always seen Will through this lens of coping with and reacting to Hannibal's efforts to corrupt him; it might be sort of cool to see what being in the driver's seat did to him. Probably nothing good since he's still one doomed American. I'm not sure how they'd get Will from "committed to ending Hannibal and himself for everyone's general safety" to "willing to let Hannibal live and be in charge of him," but I dunno, surviving a suicide etc. could make him re-evaluate things. Or not, just musing.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:23 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


That makes me wonder, because it actually looked as though there were four place settings at the table with Bedelia, but only three chairs, which to my mind suggests the possibility of a person in a wheelchair at the fourth place.
posted by fancyoats at 9:40 PM on August 30, 2015 [4 favorites]


if Hannibal survived the fight&fall in such a way that he was at least for a time dependent on Will and vulnerable and not himself

I would love that more than anything. But I think it would be something very Lurid Opera Brain Damage if not plain old classic soap opera amnesia; the show really really veers hard away from anything really hard to do with the body. which is maybe a weird dumb thing to say about a show this disgusting but it is true, and I have been trying to figure out if it bothers me and why it doesn't.

I mean: the nearly offensive unreality of the soft-focus gentle-coughing vaseline on the lens 'cancer death' for one thing, also the coy pudeur with which they marched up to the line about taking away Hannibal's toilet, but then never let you think about the fact that in every scene after that he is (as in the book) wearing a diaper, so careful are they of Hannibal's iron dignity. I found it charming that the prison jumpsuit outlined his little potbelly (and was impressed anew with his tailoring when free, it never lets on) but was shocked that they let us see that physical imperfection in him. it seemed like a breach of their regular protocol, the way they don't ever let you see him dropping an egg on the floor.

anyway none of this bothers me and it certainly makes it easier to watch but it nags at me a little. I love fictional amnesia of every possible variety so I would love anything in that vein, however unreal. but it seems a pity that we won't ever get to find out if Alana was right about indignity being such a ghastly fate for Hannibal, the show shelters him from it so.
posted by queenofbithynia at 9:55 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


One thing I was thinking about as a Season 4 possibility in terms of "reversal" is if Hannibal survived the fight&fall in such a way that he was at least for a time dependent on Will and vulnerable and not himself -- subject to Will's influence as a more powerful and dominant personality,

Oh man, I would love to see this. In the mean time, the plot bunnies in my head are breeding like, well, rabbits.

It would be great to have the next season (please god let there be a next season) start with them in some remote cabin, quite soon after their fall. Both battered and bruised, but Will in better shape than Hannibal, and Hannibal with no choice but to be at the mercy of Will. I loved to see Hannibal look with disdain at the food Will manages to procure for him. He'd have to direct Will how to take care of their injuries. He'd have to live with the knowledge that Will is the one with the control. That he couldn't put up a successful fight, even if he wanted to. And then we would get to see what Will does with that power.

That would be so good. Bryan Fuller, make it happen. Or rather, find some network that will let you make it happen.

It can't end here. This show has so much left to give. I can feel it.

This show is so good that I can't stand it. I love it so much. Don't let it end here.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:56 PM on August 30, 2015 [2 favorites]


He wasn't wearing a diaper. He had to use the hole in the floor where the plumbing was.
posted by tel3path at 11:12 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


If it seems too hard, if you're too appalled by what you're reading - remember Hannibal carried Will bridal-style 31 fucking miles on foot in the snow while branded and after having been strung up and tortured for hours.

Incidentally, tel3path, you can take the credit/blame for inspiring my first foray into writing Hannibal fanfic. This comment made me want to rewatch Digestivo so that I could remind myself of Hannibal's struggle before I dove into Hannibal Rising. And then, after re-watching the episode, I couldn't stop myself from trying to fill in the gaps between them leaving Muskrat Farm and Will waking up in Wolf Trap. 2000 words and counting.
posted by litera scripta manet at 11:23 PM on August 30, 2015


For fanfic Recs (LET"S DO THIS) I really loved The Borderline State , its a season one ish fic about what happens when Hannibal gets loose and Abigael is still there but as also a Murder Intern and it's kind of great

also the whole fic where Will wakes up in an alternate dimension where Hannibal ISN'T a serial killer and they're like, IN LOVE and it's AMAZING cause it treats someone suddenly appearing in an AU realistically and I can;t find the link right now
posted by The Whelk at 11:27 PM on August 30, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also I uh just started, An Interview With An Empath as a post S3 finale fic based on everything we've been talking about
posted by The Whelk at 11:29 PM on August 30, 2015 [3 favorites]


Sea Change is one of the better new S3-codas - and they're basically flooding the AO3 archive as fast as people can type.

I spiked a fever this weekend that had me glassy-eyed and unable to leave my bed, so the only thing I could apparently do was read my way through Hannibal fandom and rewatch the final episode over and over. I'm not saying get horribly infected and bed bound on purpose, but that was accidentally awesome timing - watching Hannibal through a fever is amazing.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 1:38 AM on August 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


Here is the alt!nice!verse link: Through A Glass.
posted by tel3path at 2:46 AM on August 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hm, just read a couple of the interviews where BF said they were running out of time and budget and didn't manage to get everything they needed for the final fight scene - and then the song came and they were thrilled and rescued it with that.

That explains why the final fight scene wasn't as good as I was expecting it to be - and since I didn't reckon much to the song, from my point of view it didn't help.

Still, you know, good ending, because we get to have it all ways.
posted by tel3path at 4:22 AM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Suppose Molly and Reba are in the same hospital? Imagine the two of them happen to be in the same common room when the tv news comes on. AWKWARD.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:52 AM on August 31, 2015


showbiz_liz, Reba thereafter.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:28 AM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Apologies if I already missed this somewhere amid all the fic recs and shoving-our-legs-into-ovens, but I found an interesting morsel buried in the Feeding Hannibal for this episode. Per Janice, in the first draft of the script, Hannibal was going to be in the dining room slicing up the Firefly Leg o' Bedelia.
posted by Stacey at 7:48 AM on August 31, 2015


Hannibal season four
posted by The Whelk at 9:39 AM on August 31, 2015


A witchygothy of mine who's been meaning to check out Hannibal for a while has officially been nudged over the edge by the fact that it featured a Siouxsie track. So even though I didn't dig the song, guess it's good it was in there!
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:58 AM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Thanks for all the fan fic recs! I've only read the askmefi one so far, and it is amazing. I love the reference to scarabic's infamous answer to the how to dispose of a body.

Okay, don’t panic. First be smart from the very beginning -

Okay. Awkward.

But really, the whole thing is brilliant, start to finish.
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:03 AM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I am idly working on a thing where it's season 1 times but Will is the secret murderer and Hannibal isn't
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:08 AM on August 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


It's possible I wrote a thing last night and requested an AO3 account and am just waiting for it to be granted so I can post the thing.

Damn it, Bryan Fuller.
posted by Stacey at 10:14 AM on August 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


This is our becoming. (Becoming a bunch of nerds.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:17 AM on August 31, 2015 [7 favorites]


We're creative! Not just passive consumers!

I mean it's not surprising considering the entire show is basically a fanfic
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 AM on August 31, 2015 [4 favorites]




What happened to Winston
posted by tel3path at 11:09 AM on August 31, 2015


I don't suppose anyone would care to block out 13 chapters for a season 4 fic?

Because obviously I have lots of time to do stuff like that. It's not like I have a job or stuff to do or anything, lol!

(gross sobbing) THEY TOOK AWAY OUR SHOOOOOOOOOOW

HANNIGRAM HAS NO HANDS BUT OUR HANDS
posted by tel3path at 11:24 AM on August 31, 2015


So, Hannibal "spun [Alana] gold".

That tells us something about how she might handle things the day Hannibal comes a'knocking.

Who's forgotten the Rumpelstiltskin story? Me. So for the benefit of me, let me recap.

The girl in Rumpelstiltskin boasted of being able to spin straw into gold (or has it boasted of on her behalf).

Rumpelstiltskin spins the gold to get her out of it, but it's in exchange for her firstborn. But, she can get out of it by guessing his name. (And she spies around a bit and overhears him rapping about how his name is Rumpelstiltskin, you know, rather like the cannibal jokes.)

Now I fully understand what that question "could I have ever understood you?" was about. If uncovering someone's true name amounts to understanding them, as it does in some cultures, then Alana can get out of handing over her firstborn if she can learn to understand Hannibal.

Perhaps that's what she did, by going to visit Chilton, and what she understood was that she needed to get the fuck away from him in order to have any hope of freeing herself from his influence. So maybe she's done that. Parallel to Will realizing that he could only kill Hannibal if he gave up the idea that he could "save himself" in the process.

But WHEN season 4 comes around I'd expect a further iteration of this. Alana will have to come to an authentic understanding of Hannibal in order to save her son's life.
posted by tel3path at 11:33 AM on August 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


I had been hoping for the "could I have understood you" thing to result in Alana trying to administer therapy to Hannibal while he was in her care. But maybe she was smart enough to know that would only do harm to her.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:36 AM on August 31, 2015


But yeah "I spun you gold" AND "your wife and child belong to me" definitely points at a possible future direction for the Hannibal/Alana relationship
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:37 AM on August 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think it's one thing to put herself in charge of security around him, and another to try to do therapy at him.

I mean, jailing your ex-boyfriend is hella dicey, ethically speaking, but Alana's reasons for believing it has to be her? Fully justifiable.

If she'd tried to do therapy on him, though, that would have been indefensible.

Besides, they all know he doesn't need therapy - he's not insane. And to all appearances he never received any treatment. It would also have been unethical to impose treatment on him when he doesn't need it.
posted by tel3path at 11:42 AM on August 31, 2015


It would also have been unethical to impose treatment on him when he doesn't need it.

Oh, I can imagine Hannibal playing along with it though.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:10 PM on August 31, 2015


(oh hey I'm quoted in the re-cap! plus WE HAVE MORE FLOWER LANGUAGE STUFF I MISSED THE FIRST TIME IEEEE)
posted by The Whelk at 12:22 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


The Hannibal Tumblr has a few things to say to you.

Spoiler: the last ones are "#Hannigram is real #*drops mic*"
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:26 PM on August 31, 2015


A nice piece in Vulture: Hannibal Redefined How We Tell Stories on Television.

The conclusion:

"Anyone who makes scripted television should look at this series and think about ways to apply Hannibal’s experiments in tone, point of view, image, and sound to non-horror material, because what it’s doing is not innate to the horror movie, but to the most sophisticated third-person omniscient novels. It is literary and cinematic at the same time, in such a way as to suggest that one mode can be the continuation of the other, without falsifying or oversimplifying the uniqueness of either form. It represents a major step forward in scripted TV’s artistic evolution.

Hannibal is dead. Hannibal is the future."
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:48 PM on August 31, 2015 [5 favorites]


also I just slipped in a Brokeback Mountain reference cause I can do what I want
posted by The Whelk at 1:30 PM on August 31, 2015 [3 favorites]






You know, the magnificent view of Bedelia's boobies is rather ruined by the obvious figure-skater net neckline. It's as if fashion tape had never been invented.

Though fashion tape usually causes friction enough to rub your skin raw. And GA says she's always treated really well on this show. Maybe part of treating her well is not making her wear fashion tape.
posted by tel3path at 3:55 PM on August 31, 2015


Well, the answer is: if we get another series we'll find out then. Until and unless we get another series we are free to interpret it all ways.

Since the final scene is a big honking allusion to Sherlock/Moriarty they might as well have told us in so many words that Hannigram will survive, and we didn't even need the stinger for that.

I mean, in the end, the text is what we've got, right? If something's not coming through in the text, then Word of God is... well, not moot exactly. BF said ex post facto that Hannibal took Alana's coat last year, some argued that the text didn't support it because we didn't see Hannibal pause when he stepped over Alana and anyway Hannibal would never fit into Will's coat, and and and. But the text didn't not support that Hannibal took Alana's coat, and if Word of God says the correct interpretation is that he did take it, then he took it, even if that's an ex post facto change. At the same time, in order to know the answer to the questions raised by the text, you have to go outside it and future audiences may not be doing that, so, again - the text is all we have.
posted by tel3path at 4:04 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Anyway... I'm trying to figure out whether self-leg-amputation is possible, at least the way Bedelia's amputation was done. We all know about those doctors in Antarctica who had to operate on themselves, but taking off one's own leg, hmmm.

Anything that's remotely possible, however improbable, is allowed on the show (except for the Toontown violence in HannibalWorld during the first half; no, most people do find it painful to be put through a glass cabinet and also walking in sock feet on broken glass is uncomfortable too).

The guy Hannibal is based on had a level of privilege while incarcerated that in some dimensions exceeded what Hannibal got. Just chew on that idea for a moment.

A guy really did cut off his own face and feed it to dogs while on PCP.

Serpico survived a Chilton-type bullet to the face.

It supposedly is technically possible, however remotely, to gestate a baby inside a pig (?)

You can't trigger Miriam a la Manchurian Candidate - but you could certainly MAKE IT LOOK as if you'd done that. (The more I think about it the more I think this is part of Alana's 'Hannibal did this' argument - she had him in all the lockdown that was humanly possible and he still managed to get an outside line and ruin everything - the frustration and fear must have made her feel like she had Houdini in her jail and that NO MATTER WHAT he would ALWAYS get out, like smoke, and influence EVERYTHING around her in ways she would never be able to detect; in other words, she'd become convinced that he really was magic).

Also, investigative techniques The Monster of Florence blah blah you couldn't make this stuff up.

And so on, and so on. You'd be surprised by how many impossible things on the show have actually happened in some form in real life. Even the voracious aristocratic serial killer has precedent - Gilles de Rais, Countess Bathory. Being aristocrats, they had the resources, wealth and social power to do their reign of terror. And then, even H H Holmes, he had enough access to the right sort of land to build a facility to conduct his murders in secret.

Anyway I was driving at something but it's late again and I'm tired again so.

But yeah, it would be cool if Bedelia could have cut off her own leg because if she'd done that, in her terror of Hannibal's awesome power, it would be a literalization of what all the characters have done at various times. Bought into the idea of Hannibal's omnipotence so much that they gave away a lot of their power in the belief that Hannibal would only take it from them anyway.

Goodnight sweet sheep and cannibal dreams.
posted by tel3path at 4:49 PM on August 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yes, blog, fan the flames of this VERY IMPORTANT debate...

I really don't give a rat's ass how people choose to interpret the Bedelia scene (though you have to love how the whole point of that post is "X is frankly a better reading because it's the one I thought of"). But I do kind of take issue with the position that until and unless the series comes back and tells us differently, we MUST assume that Hannibal and Will are dead.

Why? If there's anything we've learned on this show, it's that until you personally see the corpse (and for charred/unidentifiable ones, the dental records and DNA profile), nobody is to be assumed dead. Heck, they may not even have fallen into the water since there are some little slope-y outcroppings here and there. They could have hit one near the top and slid-rolled onto a shelf area for all we know.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:51 PM on August 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Well, yeah, and like I said the clear allusion to Sherlock and Moriarty.

Like it has to be a convention of the genre now that if two mortal mirror-enemies fall off a cliff in each other's arms, they automatically survive. All they have to do is wait out a moratorium on appearing in any canonical media for 18 months or more and they're good to go.
posted by tel3path at 4:59 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think subsection 3, paragraph 9 of the bylaws may require a water landing, but the deerstalker is optional.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:02 PM on August 31, 2015


Oh and um, I like that the Science Bros are so stereotypically jockish and unemotional about their work.

But also, it underlines a little how baffling and irritating S1 Will must have been to them, with his feverish reactions to everything.

Gawd you people are keeping me up.
posted by tel3path at 5:03 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


But I mean Greg Nog did break protocol a little by having that reveal in the coda to the coda. Eventually though we'd have guessed that that's how it's done, so.
posted by tel3path at 5:04 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Even without the stinger, we all know Fuller had plans for a S4, and without Hannibal and Will the show loses its title and its soul. So it's not especially surprising that they pull a Sherlock, since this series is also as full of improbable survival as it is of artful death. Indeed, in showverse survival is ugly, gross, and painful while death is beautiful and awe-inspiring.

And of course Bedelia didn't do the leg herself because only Hannibal cooks like that.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:10 PM on August 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Right.

If it's literally impossible for them to have survived, they didn't, but if it's just improbable, they could have.

Probably Hannibal rented the ledge six feet below, to the local trampoline club for the evening.

If it's literally impossible for Bedelia to have amputated her own leg, she didn't, but if it's only improbable, she could have.
posted by tel3path at 5:27 PM on August 31, 2015


Rumpelstiltskin spins the gold to get her out of it, but it's in exchange for her firstborn. But, she can get out of it by guessing his name.

Hannibal: Alana, you will only get your child back... IF you guess my name!

Alana: It's Hannibal, isn't it? Hannibal Lecter.

Hannibal: oh god damn it
posted by Greg Nog at 5:30 PM on August 31, 2015 [11 favorites]


They fell onto the raven stag which can fly (duh) and tode it into the sunset
posted by The Whelk at 5:31 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Hannibal giving one of his menacing speeches while slowly advancing until he trips on a floor tile and falls flat on his face
posted by The Whelk at 5:32 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Am I the only one who found this episode hilarious from beginning to end? How nonchalantly Hannibal pulls a dead cop out of a car? His pissy little speech to Will before he gets freed? And of course the coroners' report.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 5:57 PM on August 31, 2015 [6 favorites]


I want to go back in to the time I didn't realize there were three places set at the table.
posted by angrycat at 5:58 PM on August 31, 2015


Fic promt: Hannibal wakes up one day and his vampire powers are gone, his clothes get creased and wrinkled, his food burns, he trips when trying to menace, he can't mesmerize people by talking to them, and getting anywhere takes FOREVER
posted by The Whelk at 6:16 PM on August 31, 2015 [7 favorites]


Hannibal wakes up one day and his vampire powers are gone

#ALZHANNIBAL
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:10 PM on August 31, 2015


I was re-watching a season 1 episode (Entree), and during one scene, Freddy Lounds says, "Here we are. A bunch of psychopaths helping each other out."

I don't think I was struck by it on first watch, but now I realized that this is pretty much the summary of this entire series, especially once Alana turned to the dark side in Season 3. Speaking of Alana, it's easy to forget how different she was in those first two seasons, aside from her sartorial choices. I remember them doing some hand wave-y comments about how bone marrow got into her blood stream and might affect her personality (am I remembering that right? Or did I make that up?) but it still doesn't feel like a satisfying explanation for her character shift.

Also, on re-watch, I'm reminded of the fact that Jack really was kind of a jerk from the very beginning.

Between Hannibal and Jack, poor Will never had a chance.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:43 PM on August 31, 2015


Watched with three friends tonight - re the stinger, two thought Bedelia did it to herself, one thought Hannibal did it to her, and both of them just assumed they were right before realizing there was another possible interpretation.

LegGate is the blue and gold dress of the Hannibal fandom.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:32 PM on August 31, 2015 [7 favorites]


Also the song bothered me a lot less this time around since I was prepared for it to be there
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:33 PM on August 31, 2015


OH ALSO

Ten minutes before the end, one of my friends' girlfriends came home. She's never watched the show before because it's too gory but wants to watch the end, I give her the briefest possible rundown of their relationship ("That guy is Hannibal Lecter, you know him, and this other guy is his nemesis/bff/possible lover, they have a whole relationship based on trying to kill each other, also a third murderer is coming for them").

Just based off that information, she said during the scene with Dolarhyde inside the house "it seems like Will is making it challenging for Hannibal, like he's testing him or waiting to see if he can survive this." And that kind of blew my mind because, of course, that is precisely what Hannibal has been doing to Will since day one. Hannibal was curious, he made Will curious, Will now finally has the upper hand, etc. But she didn't know that stuff. She picked up that dynamic from that one scene, in which Will barely even speaks.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:42 PM on August 31, 2015 [8 favorites]


H*A*N*N*I*B*A*L
posted by The Whelk at 10:12 PM on August 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


Ah, also also - reminiscing beforehand about the show overall with the same friends, one guy, who is black, said it was so refreshing to see complex black characters who weren't at all defined by their race. Which is exactly how I have been feeling about the queer stuff in the show, as a queer person. The show really never indulged in treating its characters as anything less than fully realized humans. And it's so rare to see that, and so great when it happens, that we both really noticed it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:14 PM on August 31, 2015 [9 favorites]


H*A*N*N*I*B*A*L

Jack Crawford: *points angrily* *points angrily* *points angrily* *smokes weed*

oh yes this is good
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:18 PM on August 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh yeah. As a lead in to the finale I watched Aperitif. It was really wonderful to compare. To see the (NBC) end points together.

I will credit ausdemfenster for the idea again: the opening murder does not make sense as being by Francis Dolarhyde, despite what Fuller tweeted a couple years ago.

The person who killed the Marlowes shares Dolarhyde's expert gun skills but has very different concerns. That family had no children, and the murder did not culminate in any transformation or staging. According to Will the husband was killed in a way that he would be alive to watch as his wife was assaulted (to see what was taken from him).

Francis Dolarhyde has no desire to be seen or watched. He dated a blind woman and had therapy over the phone with an incarcerated man. In addition his desire to change his victims seems so central to his psyche that it doesn't make sense to have developed over only the last five (or so) years of murder. If he had any murders before the Jacobis they would have been much closer to those of his mature period, and they would likely have been connected by the FBI to these new murders.

But all the FBI has is the two family homicides. It would not have made sense to change this; a five-year long string of murders is more horrifying but lacks the urgency (to draw Graham back to the job) of a new-on-the-scene mass murderer.

My guess is that the initial idea was to have the Marlowe murders be by Dolarhyde but then they really rethought the character. Based on the fundamental premises of art murder and what we have seen from him in-show, it was not Dolarhyde. [Or he changed in really deep and interesting ways... that the show had no interest in exploring].
posted by mountmccabe at 10:21 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


sneak peak at this shipper trash ficlet

"
“Love can be seen as an act of courage.” said Dr. Factice.

“You make it sound noble.”"
posted by The Whelk at 10:21 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


that didn't take long vidders
posted by The Whelk at 10:36 PM on August 31, 2015


Man, I cannot get over how astonishing Mikkelsen's performance is in those last couple of minutes. It's like Hannibal finally rips his person suit off, and what's underneath is nakedly human.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:15 PM on August 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


My guess is that the initial idea was to have the Marlowe murders be by Dolarhyde but then they really rethought the character.

Fuller has said that the only reason the connection wasn't made was effectively they ran out of time to put it in.

Serial killers don't necessarily start with their M.O. worked out the very first time. Dolarhyde might have killed the Marlowes just to see if he could. After discovering he could do that, the Dragon decided to up the game.
posted by crossoverman at 12:07 AM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


and what's underneath is nakedly human.

Within the man-suit a monster, but within the monster-suit a man.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:14 AM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


He does have a desire to be seen as powerful, accepted and loved as the Dragon, that was the whole point of placing the mirrors in the victims' eyes.

When he dated a blind woman, he dated her as Francis, knowing he was safe from being seen - but also that she *did* see him and understand him in no way he had ever experienced before which is why it's so poignant and tearjerky.
posted by tel3path at 5:15 AM on September 1, 2015


Under the three piece suit a prison jumpsuit, under the prison jumpsuit a man. In a t shirt and sport coat? Wtf
posted by tel3path at 5:16 AM on September 1, 2015


Within the man-suit a monster, but within the monster-suit a man.

He's a Lithuanian nesting doll!
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:32 AM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


So, that was an ending like no other. All wrapped up and happy. What did Jack get out of it? NOTHING.
posted by unliteral at 6:14 AM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


He got exactly what he wanted: Dolarhyde dead, Hannibal dead. And only 847 officers were killed in the process - way up on his usual rate.

Win.
posted by tel3path at 6:24 AM on September 1, 2015 [7 favorites]


So, that was an ending like no other. All wrapped up and happy.

Yeah, actually, I think that's the biggest argument for why they need to survive. That ending was like total wish fulfillment for both of them. All Will wants is to be free of Hannibal, free from all the conflicting painful beautiful shit in his own head, and to free everyone else from both of them. All Hannibal wants is to be entwined alone with Will forever in blood-soaked ecstasy.

But fate often doesn't let us choose our own ending, and we are Fortune's fools. These guys have never gotten (and shouldn't get) exactly what they want in the way they want it without major unintended and unpleasant consequences. So it strains credulity to think the universe would let them off this easily.

I kind of hope that if we do get more Rollicking Adventures of Hannigram, Fuller deals with the how-did-they-survive? thing in one of two ways:

1. Just flat-out don't even mention or explain or show it, which would sort of rip-off the BBC Sherlock, but on that show, while Sherlock doesn't explain how he lived, the other characters ask/talk about it and there's the wacky Alternate Fan Theories stuff. But the boys and us are the only ones here who even know about the cliff, fall, etc. So it's not like Jack or Alana is going to ask them directly about it once they re-appear wherever they do.
or
2. Have it be just a mutual-mind-palace folie a deux fall, so that we return to see them collapse onto the patio or stumble back to the house, which is kind of a cheesy "It was all a dream" deal, but this is a dream universe, so that's par for the course rather than a sudden implausible Westphall snow globe inserted into an otherwise prosaic show-world.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:43 AM on September 1, 2015


Or they could survive because they just killed a fucking dragon and it's been established since S1 that in the Hanniverse Art Murder conveys magic powers.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:48 AM on September 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


The bluff actually represents the edge of the fictional world they inhabit (think Truman Show crossed with Golden Compass). Next season they are let loose in our real world and are confused as to why everyone else isn't constantly hallucinating slo-mo blood. And why people are so horrified by their art murders, god it's almost like they've never even SEEN an art murder.

And why all these teenage girls keep following them around and screaming at them to make out.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:49 AM on September 1, 2015 [8 favorites]


And by teenage girls I mean The Whelk
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:50 AM on September 1, 2015 [15 favorites]


The bluff actually represents the edge of the fictional world they inhabit (think Truman Show crossed with Golden Compass). Next season they are let loose in our real world and are confused as to why everyone else isn't constantly hallucinating slo-mo blood. And why people are so horrified by their art murders, god it's almost like they've never even SEEN an art murder.

The French Mistake!
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:51 AM on September 1, 2015


These guys have never gotten (and shouldn't get) exactly what they want in the way they want it without major unintended and unpleasant consequences. So it strains credulity to think the universe would let them off this easily.

Well, to be fair, they're DEAD in this scenario! Neither of them would have chosen that for themselves.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:51 AM on September 1, 2015


It's just the cost of doing business.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:53 AM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


I also decided that since, if the show had been renewed as usual, it would be next May or June at the absolute earliest that we'd see more of it, possibly much later because of American Gods, I'm just going to electively extend my Kubler-Ross Stage 1: Denial until then and not be any more despondent than I was after the Season 1 or 2 finale (which was still fairly despondent). If there hasn't been any good news or developments by next summer, I'll proceed to Bargaining . . . although I think I'm actually bargaining right now. Hmm.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:01 AM on September 1, 2015


Signs of Hannibal deprivation may include stress eating (your own arm)
posted by The Whelk at 8:36 AM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Next season they are let loose in our real world and are confused as to why everyone else isn't constantly hallucinating slo-mo blood.

Arnold Schwarzenegger and a cute kid will spend the season trying to reunite them with the cable service that will send them back to their TV world.
posted by Bringer Tom at 9:20 AM on September 1, 2015


The Interview With An Empath continues! Or Eventually Everything Becomes About Dogs
posted by The Whelk at 9:26 AM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Next season they are let loose in our real world and are confused as to why everyone else isn't constantly hallucinating slo-mo blood. And why people are so horrified by their art murders, god it's almost like they've never even SEEN an art murder.

Hannibal: How can it possibly take THIS LONG to drive to Argentina? It's been HOURS, and we're not even past Savannah yet. I'm so BORED!

Will: I don't know, it's crazy. But listen, if you can just chill and play Travel Bingo for another hour or two, I promise we'll stop for a nice Cracker Barrel murder to cheer you up.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:41 AM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


My sign of deprivation was that this morning, partway through my nice peaceful morning meditation session, I was suddenly struck by a deep worry for what happened to all of Hannibal's stuff after he peaced out at the end of Mizumono. Specifically, the Casual Friday Red Sweater of Morning Cannibalism. I am really sad to think that's in an FBI evidence box somewhere. I hope Hannibal buys another one in Argentina.
posted by Stacey at 9:44 AM on September 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


Don't worry, I have that sweater. It's safe. With me.
posted by tel3path at 9:53 AM on September 1, 2015


i ate it
posted by tel3path at 9:53 AM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


Question for all of you:
Does anyone have any insight as to Hannibal's emotions when Will is being attacked by the Red Dragon inside the house at the end? Mads exhibits some interesting facial expressions that I can't quite read. Is he angry? Turned on? Happy that Will is getting his after gloating over him with the wine glass? On first viewing, I thought it was anger at the Red Dragon, but Mads is so skilled that I'm questioning that first assumption. Any thoughts? Thanks!
posted by AdagioCantabile at 9:55 AM on September 1, 2015


The Interview With An Empath continues! Or Eventually Everything Becomes About Dogs

This is fucking fantastic -- it's a totally inspired conceit to begin with, and the execution is brilliant.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:57 AM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Thanks! tel3path is helping with the tone - turns out it's easier to match when you have two obsessive re-watchers looking at it.
posted by The Whelk at 10:04 AM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Question for all of you:
Does anyone have any insight as to Hannibal's emotions when Will is being attacked by the Red Dragon inside the house at the end? Mads exhibits some interesting facial expressions that I can't quite read. Is he angry? Turned on? Happy that Will is getting his after gloating over him with the wine glass? On first viewing, I thought it was anger at the Red Dragon, but Mads is so skilled that I'm questioning that first assumption. Any thoughts? Thanks!


Gosh, I've been thinking about that too. I think showbiz_liz pointed out that they both have to be remembering Mizumono, so that's one thing. I think he is curious and excited because he knows Will isn't a brutal psychopath; his gift is that he kills righteously in defense of self or others or for justice, so Hannibal knows Francis attacking him or attacking Will is a great trigger for that. So he has to have a sense that the thing he longs for may be about to happen. And he has to let it go on long enough for Will's violence to get really activated before joining in so that he won't be rescuing Will or taking the lead but they'll be mutually engaged active partners.

He's probably gratified that even though he knows Will brought him there to be killed, the minute Francis seems to make a move toward killing Hannibal by getting out the knife, Will suddenly switches from "sipping wine with dispassionate curiosity" to going for his gun. Plus yeah, he probably also enjoys seeing Will get hurt just for its own sake.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:05 AM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh, plus the "hey, motherfucker, nobody gets to hurt Will except me" thing.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:08 AM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


I find the first half of the season easier to accept when I take at face value Hannibal's declaration "let it be a fairy tale". A fairy tale set in Hannibal's memory palace. And set in marked contrast to the "back to reality" atmosphere of episode 8.

If you haven't run into them, and you might be interested in some literary criticism along those lines, you might enjoy 22drunkb's fairy tale-focused analyses of Hannibal.
posted by ubersturm at 10:10 AM on September 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


And here's showbiz_liz's great upthread point about memory and empathy:
So ok, when Hannibal is on the floor bleeding from the stomach while Will stands looming over him, that's obviously calling back to Mizumono - and looking at their faces in that scene, I think they are both remembering that, and they both know that they're feeling a bit of what the other felt back then. Will now understands a bit better how Hannibal could do that to him and still love him. And I think until that point, he was maybe really going to let the Dragon kill him - but seeing him on the floor like that, he just couldn't do it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:15 AM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Does anyone have any insight as to Hannibal's emotions when Will is being attacked by the Red Dragon inside the house at the end?

I accidentally a lot of words.

There's a lot going on in that scene, and I think a lot of it is open to a certain amount of interpretation. But here's my general take.

Probably even before they escape, Hannibal knows that Will has colluded with Francis to kill him. And he has taken no steps whatsoever to prevent that from happening. He has walked into the trap with eyes wide open.

Why? Well, because he knows why Will came up with the plan in the first place – why Will feels he needs Hannibal dead, and by someone else’s hand. Because they have this intense bond that Will may not have ever wanted, but now can’t escape from, no matter what he tries to do, even though it’s destroying him. “Can’t live with him, can’t live without him,” literally. In short, Will is trying to get Francis to kill Hannibal because he’s in love with Hannibal, and because he hates Hannibal for making him love him. Which is precisely what Hannibal felt in Mizumono when he gutted Will.

When Hannibal is on the floor bleeding from a stomach wound while Will stands over him, the two of them are in an almost exact reverse of Mizumono. Will has finally been able to vent his righteous anger at Hannibal and is now looming over him like an angry god, literally.

But Hannibal has been there, and he knows that Will, like him, might not be able to finish the job. Might not really even want to. Because his rage and hatred don’t cancel out the love, they just coexist with it. Basically: in that scene, Hannibal is hoping that Will feels the same way he did – that he will walk up to the line of killing him, but not cross it. (“You trust Will with my well-being?” “As much as I trust you with his.”)

Which is why Hannibal chose to remain down on the floor. We see after this scene that he still had the ability to get up and fight - but by lying there helplessly, he is putting his fate entirely into Will’s hands. Waiting to see what he’ll do with it, now that the decisive moment has actually arrived and it’s not just talk.

Earlier in the episode, Will says “Decisions are made of kneaded feelings. They're more often a lump than a sum.” Hannibal is counting on this – on emotion ruling Will’s eventual decision. And then the moment comes where this whole gambit pays off, as Hannibal knew or hoped it would.

When Hannibal glances away from Francis and looks riiiiiight at Will when he says “it’s a glorious if… rather discomforting idea” – in that moment, Hannibal might as well have straight-up said “Will, don’t let him kill me.” And Will can’t.

And then Francis stabs him in the face, which is the moment you were actually asking about.

I think in that moment, Hannibal would be feeling a whole lot of things – relief, gratitude, love, perhaps a little guilt, anger at Francis, maybe even a little smugness - “and see, babe, this is what you get for setting up this ridiculous display.” And I think a part of him is purely sadistic and just enjoys seeing Will get hurt. But mostly – Will pulling out a gun to save Hannibal and getting stabbed in the face for it is proof that Hannibal’s hopes were not misplaced.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:59 AM on September 1, 2015 [5 favorites]


Is it in his eyes?
oh no that's just his charm
In his warm embrace
Oh no that's just his arms
If you wanna know if he loves you so
it's when he gets, stabbed in the face.
posted by The Whelk at 11:03 AM on September 1, 2015 [12 favorites]


I wish to be a sassy backup singer wearing a sequined dress and singing the "stabbed in the face! whoa whoa whoa" line behind The Whelk, please.
posted by Stacey at 11:31 AM on September 1, 2015 [5 favorites]


ok but the sequins are made of shattered mirror glass
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:32 AM on September 1, 2015 [8 favorites]


Decisions are made of kneaded feelings. They're more often a lump than a sum.

Huh. I heard that as "needed feelings" and the line seriously didn't make any sense to me at all. This makes it much clearer.

Also, I think that part of what was going across Hannibal's face was a tiny bit of fear that maybe Will could let him die. Just a tiny frisson of panic/"I need you Wilgram." And it was seeing that in Hannibal's eyes that made Will take the action of going for the gun. But it was the smug "Will will totally help me" part of the look that made Francis realize that it wasn't safe to have his back turned on Will.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:33 AM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


What great goddamn writing and acting -- to be able to stuff that scene full of so much so gracefully.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:15 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


But mostly – Will pulling out a gun to save Hannibal and getting stabbed in the face for it is proof that Hannibal’s hopes were not misplaced.

A perfect example of "Greater love hath no man than this." When Hannibal said that, he was replying to Will's comment about it being fine not to save himself, i.e., fine to lose his life to save [whoever] by killing Hannibal and Francis. But Hannibal mostly intended it to mean what Will actually immediately does, risking himself to save Hannibal, thus proving his love.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:24 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


I am at a loss at what to do with myself now. I've been watching and obsessing over this show for years now, never thinking that it would come to an early end. I mean, I just got started on my Hannibal Dining Room, and now it's not relevant anymore? What do I do?

Also, thank you guys for bringing so much nuance and humor to my viewing experience these past two seasons. You'll all be impeccably attired in my memory palace.
posted by MsVader at 12:56 PM on September 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


he is putting his fate entirely into Will’s hands. Waiting to see what he’ll do with it, now that the decisive moment has actually arrived and it’s not just talk.

Which he kind of does again on the cliff edge. This is his house and yard and he's a predator with preternatural senses even in his impaired state. He knows where he's standing and where Will is nudging him. And he lets whatever's going to happen happen.

I said it after Digestivo and I say it again, Hannibal may be a lot of things, but he is not an emotional wimp or commitment phobe. Which probably helps explain why I sort of adore the bastard no matter what (well, the beauty helps too). He'd never pull the "Oh, yeah, I guess I maybe sort of love or care about you . . . sometimes . . . for now . . . since there's nobody better around at present, but even though I spend all my time at your house, I'm not putting my name on the electric bill" stuff on Will, unlike most of the people I spent time with during the whole Dating Era of my life. He's not going to get cold feet and abscond with a stripper after the bachelor party. He's all in.

Of course, it's in a completely horrible Pepe Le Pew way, which always makes me act just like the cat.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:57 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


I fully support and encourage Hannibal Home Decor, it will mark you as having excellent taste in genre pushing TV drama and forward thinking bone based fashion
posted by The Whelk at 12:58 PM on September 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


Dammit, now I can't stop hearing Hannibal say, "We shall FLEE to CaPRI" as he drags Will out of the ocean.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:20 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]




Whelk, am I right in thinking that you referred to this as "threatening chic?" Because I'm just about to move into a new apartment and I need all new living room furniture, and if you have any sources...

I'm dead serious about this btw. Like, not sure I want a couch made out of heavily metaphorical antlers, but... accent pieces, you know.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 1:56 PM on September 1, 2015


You need to immerse yourself in Alexander McQueen.
posted by tel3path at 1:57 PM on September 1, 2015


...holy shit, yes. Yes I do.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 2:02 PM on September 1, 2015


I like the Morbid Anatomy gift shop! but the look could also be like Cutting Edge Goth or Plausible Deniability "What no the deer skull on the wall is an ART OBJECT".

for crafty ideas, I like BULK PURCHASES OF BEETLE WINGS. Fill an accent jar with them! Slightly terrify people! . I'm currently trying out that "Put a fancy mirror opposite a light source and then put some crazy flower/feather display in front of the mirror.

Dramatic colors, interesting textures.
posted by The Whelk at 2:02 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, Hugh Dancy assures us that Hannigram are sitting on a beach somewhere drinking out of a coconut, or a skull.

AND HE SHOULD KNOW.

But what it must have been like to wake up to that. "WhAT THE FUCK I can't get RID OF YOU what is going ON HERE I'm in hell. Tell me I'm in hell? Please? I just WHAT EVEN ARE YOU DOING HERE YOU'RE DEAD. I'M DEAD. this shouldn't be allowed"

And Hannibal says, "My dear Will [smth pretentious]"
posted by tel3path at 2:11 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


I have the mirror and the light source! And they actually go on the dining room table. The display is exactly what I need. And I'm thinking it would be 1/3 Elegantly Plausible Deniability, 1/3 Probably Time to Get Out the Scopalamine, and 1/3 From One Angle This Is Abstract Art And From Another Angle It Is Clearly The Clavicle of Someone Who Just Didn't Try Hard Enough.
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 2:13 PM on September 1, 2015 [8 favorites]


I talk about my feather vase and the silver bowl of eggs but I don;t mention the HUGE BRASS RUBBING from a 13TH CENTURY TOMB on the other wall that probobly helps Threatening Chic.
posted by The Whelk at 2:19 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Actually - when my former roommate and I were decorating our place a couple years back, she vetoed a few art pieces of mine as being a little too creepy for the main areas, so those are the ones I put in my bedroom. Then I realized that this made it seem as if I had deliberately filled my inner sanctum with my most twisted art as some sort of reflection of my psyche, rather than it just happening by default.

...when she moved out I kept it like that
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:56 PM on September 1, 2015 [6 favorites]


You guys, this is how goths happened in the first place
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:57 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


you might even say the goths rose from the dead to bite a new generation of swoony doomed romances and goth umbrella dresses.
posted by The Whelk at 3:02 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


My headcanon for How Hannibal Rose is something like this:

Hannibal realizes at a susceptible age that death is a thing which intersects every aspect of life. Avoiding it is of course the game of life, but that is a game that neither can be nor should be won in the end. Death must always win. So to fear death is to surrender to fear, to essentially know nothing but fear, and that is not a recipe for a live well lived. So instead of fearing death, Hannibal decided to dance with it, to embrace it, maybe even sometimes to be its agent. If death is the only knowably true final purpose of life then it is a thing to be treasured.

But of course this creates ... difficulties when dealing with people who do not share his enlightened view, so Hannibal has to keep his passion secret. Until he meets a man, a wonderful man who is clearly also dancing with death. But this man is dancing poorly and tentatively, and Hannibal knows that he can dance better. He is not feeling the true release of the not-so-petit mort. So Hannibal decides to help this fellow traveller, and ultimately realizes that they do not have to each dance separately with death; they can dance with each other. Hannibal knows that nothing else in life is ever likely to match the joy and fulfillment that this dance can provide them. And so he dances, and he feints, and he has to step on his partner's foot a few times to get him to pay attention. But in the end they dance right off the edge of reality into eternity.

You can send donations to my bitcoin account, kthx.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:29 PM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


You guys, this is how goths happened in the first place

Just as long as people have stopped blaming it on Nick Cave because it's not his fault.

But what it must have been like to wake up to that. "WhAT THE FUCK I can't get RID OF YOU what is going ON HERE I'm in hell. Tell me I'm in hell? Please? I just WHAT EVEN ARE YOU DOING HERE YOU'RE DEAD. I'M DEAD. this shouldn't be allowed"

That's the point when maybe you just need to say fuck it, give in, and take the path of least resistance. Like Groundhog Day or Interview with the Empath. I don't know what Season 4 will bring, but if they both emerge from that plunge alive, then their relationship pretty much has to undergo a sea change [smirk] of some kind because they can't just keep doing the past 4 years some more.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:40 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


And Hannibal says, "My dear Will [smth pretentious]"

PINKY AND THE BRAIN BUT WITH ACTUAL, SUCCESSFUL VILLAINY ENSUES.
posted by sparkletone at 4:25 PM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


OK, so today on the Vulture podcast, Matt Zoller Seitz revealed the specifics Bryan told him back in June about the "radical" plans for Season 4 (starting at the 4:00 mark), which is definitely potentially spoiler-filled even though the show doesn't technically exist anymore.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:31 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


So we guessed it, S4 would be Hannibal and Clarice Will living it up in South America Europe having adventures, the final sequence of the novel Hannibal.
posted by Bringer Tom at 4:52 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Which wasn't really too much of a stretch.

A Murder Husband future is hard to deal with for my bby, my precious cinnamon roll, but at least they've put the work in to justify things getting to this point.
posted by tel3path at 5:08 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hannibal used to sit on the right and Bedelia on the left.

Will sits on the left and Bedelia on the right.

This is a way of marking their relative status.

I rather liked seeing Will pull the rug out from under her and go "imagine if you had successfully lowered my opinion of myself to the point where I was provoked to do this, wouldn't you feel you'd shot yourself in the foot? smartest character on the show, as if."
posted by tel3path at 5:18 PM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


[I am ambivalent about how the spoiler policy applies to seasons that are now highly theoretical. If any of y'all would like them avoided, drop us a line and it shall be so - otherwise, I'm inclined to let it more or less be.]
posted by restless_nomad at 5:19 PM on September 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


I totally fail to see how it is even possible to spoil a season or sequel that doesn't exist yet, particularly considering the changes that Hannibal has gone through since its original conception. Hannibal S4 is fairy dust and could end up being anything.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:09 PM on September 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


However dark Will might have gone, he's still the guy who decided to hurl Hannibal and himself off a cliff rather than let him live. So I can't see the two of them just running off together and having happy murder times.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:20 PM on September 1, 2015


Oh, showbiz_liz, I think you are having a failure of the imagination right there. It's right after that moment when you've jumped off the bridge that you realize MAYBE THAT WAS NOT SUCH A GOOD IDEA and life-changing attidudinal djustments can occur. I can easilysee survival being a vindication for both of them.

Remember, Will is not and has never really been a fundamentally nice guy. In S1E1 he was there because he was good at thinking like a serial killer, a skill that was oh so useful to Jack Crawford but which was also tearing him apart. He was like Hannibal, a monster wearing a person suit, except he wasn't as skilled at the monster thing and his suit wasn't as well fitted.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:28 PM on September 1, 2015


See, I feel like people consider Will's dogs as proof of his fundamental goodness. Goodness is different than niceness.
posted by fancyoats at 6:31 PM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


I just want to apologize if I caused any distress by posting that link at all, though rn said in advance it was kosher -- I had previously self-flagged and reported a version that actually stated the info, which I instantly realized might not be at all kosher? in these unusual circumstances where a show is supposedly dead but we haven't necessarily seen its corpse or DNA profile yet.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:32 PM on September 1, 2015


Right now we should be discussing the might-have-beens because as far as we know those are the only S4 that will ever exist. Should an actual S4 or sequel materialize, it's likely to be just as different from what we think now as S3 was from what we were told at the end of S1. (Look it up.) Fuller is a smart guy who isn't married to a lot of preconceived ideas. Instead of "using the character even if we call her shlmarice" he figured out a much more clever way to use all of the interesting elements of the series while making SOTL completely irrelevant. If any future project gets greenlit, he will assuredly be approaching it with a blank slate and rested eyeballs. He has been ahead of us at every turn and that's been a lot of the fun. He'll be ahead of us on the next curve no matter how much we talk about it in the coming months.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:41 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Anyhow, I hope that if Will goes on a MurderHoneymoon, it's because he does have a life-changing epiphany and wants to rather than just "Fuck me, I'm stuck with this asshole, I might as well just drift along miserably in his orbit." I'd like to see the guy get more than two years of happiness out of the time when we know him even if it's not the specific sort I'd ideally choose for him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:12 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm not worried about being spoiled by what is really only speculation for season 4.

Also I wanted to point out that when Will is saying "pretty please" to Hannibal to convince him to fake escape, there is an echo of the season 1 Will-backing-up-against-the-ladder gif that set shipper hearts afire. The angle is almost exactly the same, Hannibal is strapped into his strait jacket and slanted against that dolly and Will approaches him steadily, much the same way that Hannibal has Will cornered on that ladder. So good.
posted by fancyoats at 7:15 PM on September 1, 2015 [6 favorites]


Whoa, good catch.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:17 PM on September 1, 2015


If we can't speculate here, wherever will we speculate?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:41 PM on September 1, 2015


VIA FANFIC, where Will settles into an altogether different role if I have any say in it (I do it should be up tomorrow)
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 PM on September 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


Plus after how intimate and in sync they just were with each other during that bit of splendor in the grass, would Hannibal even stay with Will now if he's merely resigned to his shitty fate rather than really into it? At some point it has to come down to "Be here 'cause you want to be here or GTFO," doesn't it?, or is he really that much of a starry-eyed doormat?
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:49 PM on September 1, 2015


would Hannibal even stay with Will now if he's merely resigned to his shitty fate rather than really into it?

Will said "Beautiful...." before they cliff-dived. He had Become. If they survive you probably don't want to be the person serving Will drinks at the next random bar he haunts.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:58 PM on September 1, 2015


I mean, from Hannibal's point of view, he has done a lot of waiting and sacrificing and facilitating to get to this point where he and Will finally have a consummation that allows Will to see and appreciate the beauty Hannibal's been trying to share with him. If that and/or nearly dying together doesn't close the deal, give it up, dude.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:02 PM on September 1, 2015


Will said "Beautiful...." before they cliff-dived. He had Become.

Of course, but the cliff-dive itself indicates a degree of ambivalence about embracing that.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:04 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


So I'm maybe hoping for the imagined or metaphorical cliff-dive -- "Oh what a falling off was there" -- as a thing Will envisions . . . for a moment, before realizing he wants to Choose Life instead. But yeah, surviving the fall could also be a big Get Over Your Petty Morality and Choose Life motivator too.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:08 PM on September 1, 2015


You know, this whole "soft cancellation" situation is like dry tinder for fanfic because the show both does and does not have an ending, so no one who was invested in the show is prepared to give up on the story or to expect any more of the story ever.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:46 PM on September 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


Grantland Fuller interview with some of the same talking points as the other "post-mortems," but also some interesting commentary about niche vs. mainstream appeal, the old broadcast model vs how we watch TV now, etc. If ever there were a show that was perfect for whole-season-at-once binge-watch-enabling type release, this is surely that show.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:59 PM on September 1, 2015


yeah I think the Euro! Half season will be saved in DVD cause I got to watch it two wpisodes at a time, no commercials, via streaming and it holds up much better as a dreamy tone poem, possibly because I know now Red Dragon is coming and this is just pure character work and seriously beautiful fairy tale imagery, and I love that the show had the balls to just be completely what it wanted to be without regard to what would work well on network TV

I still would've cut some of those snails tho
posted by The Whelk at 9:14 PM on September 1, 2015 [5 favorites]


I still would've cut some of those snails tho

I want to see how long all of the close-up snail footage spliced together would be. Like over a minute, it's gotta be
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:28 PM on September 1, 2015


Speaking of snails and moths and whatnot, tell me what I missed re: Chiyoh's prisoner's corpse? Is it still dangling there? I remember Will telling Hannibal about what happened, like relating the events, who killed whom after whomever did whatever, but not mentioning the firefly art murder sculpture Will had made.

Did I miss some resolution with that? Wish I had the time to binge-watch (again) and seek that out.

Otherwise, it would totally make sense if Nola was anchored below Hannigram could sail off (with Bedelia) to Lithuania and in the comfort of the Lecter Dvaras confront Hannibal's blocked-off mind palace parts and eat Bedelia's leg and all that there! And Will could show him the art murder corpse sculpture he made out of the guy who ate Hanni's sister!
posted by carsonb at 10:57 PM on September 1, 2015


I think it's more the Lecter Dvaras exists in some liminal, dream-like fairy tale space just outside reality , which is why Chiyoh feels more like a Ravenstag or Weindgo then an actual flesh and blood person. Will had to go there to understand and mount his art, his beacon to Hannibal in his ancestral heart, another valentine.
posted by The Whelk at 11:11 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean we talk about fairy tale structure but Will LITERALLY GOES TO THE VAMPIRE CASTLE and meets a fairy tale guardian in a world outside of time and place , it's like Lecter Radiation, anything close to him becomes strange and operatic so of course his ancestral home is cloaked in fog and beyond all meaning. The significant thing is that Will got there and roamed around inside it.

Everyone in the fairy world of Lecter Castle is pretty shocked he got this far. Will most of all.
posted by The Whelk at 11:16 PM on September 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


When Hannibal is on the floor bleeding from a stomach wound while Will stands over him, the two of them are in an almost exact reverse of Mizumono.

So I was thinking about this in relation to the transition from Season 3 to Season 4. In Mizumono, Will gets the belly wound and we're left with him and Abigail bleeding out together in the kitchen, probably dying. Then from there into Season 3, they both (apparently) survive, Will "takes her abroad" with him, and eventually he comes to terms with her death. So if Hannibal is in more or less the Will position this time and he and Will "survive and go abroad on adventures" next season. . . ? Well, it's fun to think about all the different directions and permutations the future could take, all of which are probably already on AO3.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:12 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Given that this season ended with Will finally gaining the upper hand on Hannibal, I'd want a 4th season to continue that dynamic for at least a little while. Like they're on the run but Hannibal's legs are broken or something.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:06 AM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think it would be interesting to see a Season 4 where we have both Hannibal and Will adjusting their boundaries of morality so that they can find some kind of compromise. Maybe they agree that Hannibal can keep killing, but only people that Will approves, or only people who are demonstrably terrible (not in a rude sense, more in a 'murderer/rapist/sadist' sense). Of course, within that framework, both of them will still be trying to subtly erode and shape the other person's stated boundaries. Maybe Will says he won't participate, so Hannibal tries to tempt him to take part.

In this kind of scenario, it would be interesting to see their individual and shared struggles. You would have Hannibal debating whether or not he wants to violate his and Will's agreement; when he slips and kills that rude waiter or the irritating florist, will he tell Will? Can he keep it a secret from Will?

In this framework, the biggest question would be just how far Will is willing to go. Is he okay with a don't ask, don't tell policy? Will he watch? Will he participate? Will he participate only if the person is a really terrible person?

And once Hannibal has killed someone, then is Will willing to eat the meat? Is it okay with him as long as he doesn't know for sure? Or has he just turned into a vegetarian?

In a scenario like this, you could also explore a lot of parallels. Hannibal's struggle not to kill, or not to kill certain people, would have some analogies to addiction. This is probably even more true of Will's struggle with his own wants and desires considering how tortured this all makes him. There's also a way in which this kind of reminds me of an open relationship or kink negotiation. What are the hard and soft boundaries? Do you want to know everything or know nothing? Etc, etc.

I definitely feel like we are at the point where we've gotten past the "Will they or won't they" stage. I'd love to see them go off on their murder adventures, and then have the focus be on the emotional fallout from the choices and compromises that each of them makes to appease the other.

On that note, I'm off to brainstorm a season 4 speculative fan fic.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:08 AM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


Maybe they agree that Hannibal can keep killing, but only people that Will approves

They could live openly with aliases, say as Dexter and Harry.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:40 AM on September 2, 2015


So, finally reading the latest Cleolinda recap and remembering that this happened:
"Not all of our choices are consciously calculated."

"No... but our decisions are. You remember when you decided to call Hannibal?"

"I wasn't decided when I called him. I just called him. I deliberated while the phone rang. I decided... when I heard his voice."
Cleo also cites Bryan Fuller: "I think his motivation is two things: one is to save Jack Crawford's life [...] and then the other plan is that he genuinely wants Hannibal to get away, and I don't think that the audience should be fully aware what that [plan] is because Will is so confused--he's not necessarily a binary thinker, he's just completely clouded with so many options."

And then in the finale we get this:
"We assign a moment to decision. What you propose is so thoughtless, I find it difficult to imagine that moment exists."

"Decisions are made of kneaded feelings. They’re more often a lump than a sum."
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:43 AM on September 2, 2015




This gifset tho
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 AM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


you GUYS with your Hannibal aesthetics and whatnot. Hannibal aesthetics is orthodox Western Civilization right down the line. I mean I love it, all of it, I always have, I always will, but -- but -- is this the grand trick of the show, get everybody all excited about Dutch masters and the golden ratio and contrapuntal harmony and sonnet form? I like to think of Hannibal taking out Harold Bloom's brains with a melon baller but the sad truth is they would probably be great pals. Is this a proper art sense for our worship? Is it? is Hannibal not a representative of the very worst impulses towards canon-making and the Great Man theory of history? Something something walking incarnation of the anxiety of influence? is he not a menace in the realm of art just as in the realm of murder? Is Hannibal not the very summit and apex and type of the kid who went to St. John's for undergrad and never got over it?

I'm not..opposed...just...the whole thing of it is a lesser artist (Harris or Hannibal, whichever) would be tempted to make him all into like Huysmans, Ernest Dowson, put a Chavannes or -- I would say Moreau but they might have done that and I blinked and missed it - the Leda is Rubens, right? -- on the wall, but they did not fall into that trap in the slightest. Hannibal appreciates Da Vinci, not Beardsley. I think the closest Harris comes to giving into that kind of temptation is when he makes him a distant cousin of Balthus. which is RIDICULOUS. though when you look at the pictures (of Balthus, not of Balthus' paintings) how could he help it.

another largely unrelated thing is I guess just, with all these innumerable awful shows in the world doing their very best to make everybody worship horrible domineering older white men with no brains but all the confidence and undeserved authority, this is the only one that ever succeeded and earned it. like Hannibal is to House and Sherlock and the rest as Hannibal-the-show- is to SVU and Criminal Minds; turn the loathsomeness and self-awareness up to 500 and it becomes lovely.
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:59 AM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]


I liked how the show went almost put if its way to have alternate or mirror forms of Hannibal (usually modeled on actual media Hannibal lecteralikes, like Abel) and how they are lacking.
posted by The Whelk at 9:09 AM on September 2, 2015


I haven't watched it yet but the What The Flick for 3x12 and the finale is up. No Bryan, unfortunately.
posted by sparkletone at 9:09 AM on September 2, 2015


...if yer wondering what Will looks in the Interview With An Empath story ( going up in ten!) I ...based it on Alfonso from What The Flick
posted by The Whelk at 9:11 AM on September 2, 2015


Overall they're very positive on both episodes and where this leaves the show. But also haha, Alonso is at least partially Bedelia Did It To Herself.
posted by sparkletone at 9:26 AM on September 2, 2015




I like to think of Hannibal taking out Harold Bloom's brains with a melon baller but the sad truth is they would probably be great pals.

But that is exactly WHY Hannibal is so perfectly installed within the symbolic and social order of his world that nobody would ever suspect him. Not because he's an implausible suspect - they know full well he's a perfect match for the Ripper's profile - but because he upholds the social order and, if he were actually the Ripper doing the things a Ripper can - he's ALLOWED to. As long as he only does it to the great unwashed, not to you, and as long as you don't have to know about it.

I seriously wondered about the meaning of Alana BLOOM given her early hypercommitment to the social order and her literal worship of Hannibal as the embodiment of the social and symbolic order. Her obsession complete correctness in everything she does (if you analyze her clothing choices you'll see she never once departs from what should be done) which obsession comes at the expense of actually doing anything. She draws strong reactions because she's an incorrect female character - a female character must be badass and infallible and never make mistakes - but a perfect lady in that she was ostentatiously and aggressively caring, but NO MATTER WHAT her geis was to keep The Man in power while wearing pretty dresses and tossing her abundant hair.

Part of why the gulling of Chilton was so significant was because it changed the interpretation of everything that had gone before. On the one hand, as I've said, Chilton knew the risks as well as anyone else but he chose to go ahead, he's not a five-year-old that they bribed with candy, so blaming the group for the specifics of that one incident is a little much. On the other hand, where Alana is concerned, it's part of a pattern where she ropes Chilton in for his annual festival of grievous bodily harm. And this time she did it openly, saying "this is an unacceptable risk for us because we're too smart (superior) but Chilton is stupid enough (inferior)" and is openly expressing amusement at the thought of him being at risk.

So that strips away all pretence that the bullying of Will during seasons 1 and 2 was ever about anything but upholding social order and privilege by sacrificing the weak. Only by acting up enough to make himself a substantial threat if they continued to bully him did he persuade the group to let him out of jail. And this season, through Chilton, they are making overt what previously was covert.

When Alana is meebling to Chilton about "what Hannibal is capable of" and Chilton holds up the mirror and tells her to look at herself, it isn't just a moment of misplaced blame or interpersonal snark, it's exposing what's really been going on all this time and what all this Hannibal-centrism has done to their lives and their souls.

Come for the paisley silk ties and ostrich egg table decorations, stay for the inescapable tar pit of spiritual corruption.
posted by tel3path at 10:00 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh man, now I can't stop thinking about this post season 3 universe.

Some couples might share fantasies about other people to satisfy a desire for non-monagamy. They would be in bed together, talking about the hot threesome with this woman or that man.

For Will and Hannibal, I can totally see them sitting around the dinner table, or even better, out at a fancy restaurant, with Hannibal quietly and seductively talking Will through his cannibal fantasies. He would tell Will how he would kill this woman sitting at the table opposite them, how he would dismember her, what he would do with her corpse, how he would cook each part of her, how he would love to see Will feast on the her leg and her arm and her ribs, etc. And maybe he would make her dining companion watch throughout the whole thing.

Can't you just see Will listening to Hannibal with that mix of horror and fascination and desire and disgust? I can. It would be great.

I was just watching the first episode of Season 3, and Hannibal makes a comment about how he's so happy in Florence that he's hardly killed anyone. I could see that setting the stage for a season 4 scenario where Will decides to get on board with a harm reduction approach, where Hannibal is willing to curb his impulses to a point as long as he and Will can have their adventures together in Europe or wherever. He wouldn't abstain completely from murder, but maybe Will has come to a conclusion that at this point that this is the best option he can hope for. Let Hannibal murder one person here or there. And maybe Will occasionally will join in, or watch, only to keep Hannibal satisfied, of course. At least that's what Will tells himself, even though on one level they'll both know there's more to it than that.

And then eventually, after Hannibal's most recent murder, maybe while he still has some blood on his clothes or on his person, they'll both be overcome with adrenaline and lust, and they'll strip off their clothes and start having a hot, tortured makeout session. And maybe Hannibal will whisper Italian verses into Will's ear as they're going at it.

Or, you know, something like that. Not that I've given this much thought. Okay, fine, maybe I have.
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:03 AM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]


If everyone is the system is complict and ends up supporting it, willingly or not, why not lie back and have some fun (Aside from ethics, morals, justice, innate sense of right and wrong and compassion for your fellow man but you know they try hard to squash those things down)
posted by The Whelk at 10:03 AM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]



For Will and Hannibal, I can totally see them sitting around the dinner table, or even better, out at a fancy restaurant, with Hannibal quietly and seductively talking Will through his cannibal fantasies. He would tell Will how he would kill this woman sitting at the table opposite them, how he would dismember her, what he would do with her corpse, how he would cook each part of her, how he would love to see Will feast on the her leg and her arm and her ribs, etc. And maybe he would make her dining companion watch throughout the whole thing.


Can't you just see Will listening to Hannibal with that mix of horror and fascination and desire and disgust? I can. It would be great.


thank you for writing chapter 4 for me
posted by The Whelk at 10:04 AM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]


Also Hannibal would be great pals with Harold Bloom in the same way he's great pals with Chilton
posted by tel3path at 10:09 AM on September 2, 2015


The thing is, Will has successfully influenced Hannibal so far. Hannibal is rather awed at this revelation and, by being awed, has shown his hand at willingly opening himself to that influence.

I don't fully understand why he's wearing a t-shirt and a sport coat at the cliff house, but I will figure it out. Dollars to doughnuts Will's influence has something to do with it.
posted by tel3path at 10:11 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm in the middle of writing something I actually HAVE to write, but when that's over...
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:12 AM on September 2, 2015


tel3path - that's why even though everybody seems to agree it is completely implausible that Clarice would have run off with him, I do feel that the partnership had a certain something that was lost when they gave all her parts to Will. Harris was so explicit and so relentless about the way her excellence and devotion just did not matter and would not ever get her through the closed doors of the boys' network, while Hannibal could go anywhere and do anything and be fawned on just as long as he kept the blood off his shirt in public and didn't insist on being recognized as a monster. And the FBI just kept on throwing Clarice away in a way that is a lot more real-world believable than the way Will is inexplicably persecuted for no reason; the temptation for a righteous woman to give in to the long-heroically-suppressed desire for vengeance by letting the patriarchy disembowel itself with its own evil hand is much more sympathetic than the temptation for a scruffy guy to just give up the inconvenient human ties that bind him to the nuclear family and general decency . That is not to say there was anything about the way they did Will/Hannibal that I did not love, of course.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:12 AM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]


Er and what I meant to say is that he would continue to try to exert that influence after the whole exasperating Oh Shit We're Alive reveal. Hannibal would be aware of the influence but now, at long last, he'll be up for it whether he admits it or not.
posted by tel3path at 10:14 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean imagine the two of them actually sitting down and trying to hash this thing out. "So." "...Yeah." "Um." "That was-" "Yeah. Wow."
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:20 AM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Agreed, except there are large parts of the audience who don't think that Will was being "inexplicably persecuted for no reason", they insist that it made complete sense for the other characters to treat him the way they did. So whatever it is that makes Will so "socially excludable", as someone upthread perfectly put it, it definitely is coming through to a decent subsection of the audience.

The flip side is that by making the persecuted character a beautiful upper-middle-class white male in his thirties, they actually succeeded in getting other sections of the audience to see that treating someone like *this* for *these* reasons is questionable. There are certain trade-offs to that, of course, which you've elucidated quite accurately.
posted by tel3path at 10:20 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean imagine the two of them actually sitting down and trying to hash this thing out. "So." "...Yeah." "Um." "That was-" "Yeah. Wow."

"Did we just"

"yeah"

"...that happened."

"This doesn't mean- I mean it doesn't have to-"

"I know, I know not unless you..."

*beat*

"wanna go again?"

"Oh god yes."
posted by The Whelk at 10:30 AM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]


even though everybody seems to agree it is completely implausible that Clarice would have run off with him

I do not agree with this. I think Harris sold it very well. Clarice was being crushed by impossible stresses and Hannibal broke her with the skill of a jeweler cleaving a diamond. It upset a lot of people who went into the book expecting her to have another plucky vanquishing action hero moment and bring Hannibal in, not get converted into his Woman Clothed with the Sun. But as I've said many times, transformation is the theme of the books and you should have known going in that someone was going to get transformed, and given that Hannibal is an example (in some ways the only one) of an already completed transformation, it's not going to be him.
posted by Bringer Tom at 10:30 AM on September 2, 2015


not sure if I really think this, let me write it down and see: the show did give Will a psychic conflict that is a lot more socially acceptable in terms of masculinity than the book did, and what I by that is that they made it a pretty straightforward battle between good and evil selves - caused by 'empathy' pulling him both ways, yes, but what the show inexplicably termed empathy was just a Pushing Daisies-style magic intuition power that had nothing to do with empathy as it is commonly understood. Will is a moral agent: what will he choose?

What the book did, though, is make his insecurity issue not, or not just, that his true self might be evil, but that he might not have a true self at all, that his self is determined and created by the totality of the influences around him. It says at one point that he starts picking up the word choices and rhythms of whoever he's talking to at the time, and you can extend that fairly easily to the ethical choices he makes: this is to me a more compelling threat of where uncontrolled empathy might be feared to take a person. But that would make Hannibal less special to him, so they didn't go that way with it. Although it would explain Hannibal's draw for him, still, in a way: if Hannibal is convinced that Will does have an essential self, a real core of personality, even though he himself doesn't believe that. like I could see Will believing that it's better to be somebody at the bottom of everything, even somebody very wicked, than to be this helpless palimpsest that everybody writes over at will.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:35 AM on September 2, 2015


it's exposing what's really been going on all this time and what all this Hannibal-centrism has done to their lives and their souls.

Don't forget their guts! (Which characters didn't end this season with a smiley-scar across their abdomen?) I remember watching season 1 with abject horror as each of the supposedly good characters chomped away at Hannibal's exquisite preparations of human meat, one after the other corrupting themselves or allowing themselves to be corrupted physically by Hannibal. Everything after those initial meals was witnessing the corrupting bite grow and unfold throughout their lives and souls. In the context of the Bible's origin story that puts Lecter in—surprise! —the Satan role.
posted by carsonb at 11:03 AM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ironically, Chilton and Lounds, two souls already corrupt on their own, abstain from the meats (at least at first, for Chilton) during their meals.
posted by carsonb at 11:04 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Will's actually quite clear about knowing who he is. It's the other characters that persistently see reflections of themselves in him.

What Will actually has is extensive compiled knowledge of criminology built up over his years as a homicide cop - the kind of intuition that emerges from expert knowledge. For example, the opening scene of season 1 immediately bashed me in the eye as a Dolarhyde kill, though apparently not everyone picked up on it; but I knew the material well enough that it was really obvious. That's not the greatest example but I think you know what I mean.

Then that's combined with some version of a condition that is known to exist, whereby people feel the things they see other people experiencing. There was a thread about that on the blue within the past few months. His conflict is that he feels - and then mentalizes - the experiences of the killers AND the victims. That's really what the root of his conflict is about.

And then you have all the people around him who proceed to overidentify him with himself, and you have the fact that he cannot help but "dress up as" them in their presence, and you get all the interpersonal conflicts that that entails as people project onto him and get bent out of shape when he demonstrates that he's separate from them and cuts across all their expectations for what he will do.
posted by tel3path at 11:07 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


What the book did, though, is make his insecurity issue not, or not just, that his true self might be evil, but that he might not have a true self at all, that his self is determined and created by the totality of the influences around him. It says at one point that he starts picking up the word choices and rhythms of whoever he's talking to at the time, and you can extend that fairly easily to the ethical choices he makes: this is to me a more compelling threat of where uncontrolled empathy might be feared to take a person.

(On preview, as tel3path also notes) what's weird to me is how much everybody on the show acts as if (and some of the fanbase may believe) that these insecurities or risks are somehow because Will is super-weird or gifted or otherwise EXTREMELY different from other people. But of course we're all like that more or less; even the mighty Hannibal is subject to influence and evolution.

Will is obviously more sensitive than your average slob for various reasons, but all the hysterics about "Oh god he may go evil, he may Become darkside because of [some special thing--his true evil core or his openness to influence, etc.]" What's so friggin' remarkable about that? When has it ever been unusual for people to learn to increasingly enjoy violence or move from observing to participating in it? How hard has it ever been for many people to be persuaded by others or circumstances or a bad day to slip into brutal behavior or become full-on avocational violent offenders? Hannibal and possibly Will, eventually, are really just A+ Olympic champion examples, but there are a lot of B and C+ ones around, even without being surreptitiously fed human flesh.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:16 AM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well that's why I noted, upthread, how incredibly jockish and unemotional the Science Bros are about their job, and that's a well known coping mechanism for people who have to do horrific jobs.

And then season 1 Will standing in a puddle of his own emotions that he couldn't help but piss all over the floor. It must have been extremely discomfiting and embarrassing for them, and - worst of all - put them in danger of thinking about things they'd rather not, in ways they'd rather not.

Will kind of represented their worst fears about themselves, that the emotional demands of the job would overwhelm them, but also that the job would expose them to insidious corrupting influences.
posted by tel3path at 11:23 AM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah I'm reminded of the guy who was one of the basises for Will Graham, working on the Green River Killer? He had a seizure looking at crime photos and his team's first response wasn't "oh no he's sick" it was "Oh no we broke his brain."

So it's on their minds at least.
posted by The Whelk at 11:28 AM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


(One of the commenters on Interview With An Empath thought the doctor might be an elaborate Hannibal role play so they could actually discuss things and that never occurred to me but God I could see those two doing that)
posted by The Whelk at 11:32 AM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


Of course, what I most want from a Season 4 is A FUCKING SEASON 4. Or a movie. Or a mini-series. Because any arc Fuller comes up with is going to rock. I mean, I know Will and Hannibal survive, so they're fine "now" (for some value of fine that equals "not worm meat"), so I'm not worried about them, really. But it just gnaws at me, at least for the moment in this immediate post-finale trauma and deprivation period before life resumes its normal pace, that after all the misery and separation and misunderstandings (i.e., mutual murder attempts) and conflict -- the fellas get literally TWO DAMN MINUTES of relative same-page-iness and conjugal what-have-you before it all goes right to hell again at least temporarily. It makes me sort of fractious and amps up my feeling of: "Hannibal, I have told you 8 times now, step the fuck back from that cliff already, and Will, c'mon, take a break, have a cream soda, snuggle some more, and if you still feel like murder-suicide then, OK, have at it."

So yeah, if Season 4 could feature some 10 or 20 minute stretches now and then of "sitting on the museum bench" or post-slaughter cuddling or just having dinner or chats again like S1 and 2, and if Will could indeed have the upper hand or at least full and equal self-possession and strength for a while, I'd be the happiest of campers and at least initially not care how evil or amoral Will is being. Sorry in advance, future murder victims (if any), but Cinnamon Roll and Bone Structure need some "us" time.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:57 AM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]


Cinnamon Roll and Bone Structure: together, they fight crime (in the sense that they very occasionally choose not to commit a crime)
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:05 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


It should be noted that all three of Will's victims were serial killers, of course- that's a line he has yet to cross.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:06 PM on September 2, 2015


No one suspects a thing until the number of active serial killers in the US starts plummeting
posted by The Whelk at 12:09 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, and Will has not actually ever murdered anyone. They were all self-defense, although he did orchestrate the last one and one way or another was involved in those cops getting killed.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:10 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


So Francis might count legally as felony murder, but not actual murder. Regardless of what plan details he and Will agreed on, I don't see any scenario in which Will and Hannibal would get out of federal custody and hook up with Francis without some police dying, so there are a few more felony murders with special circumstances.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:12 PM on September 2, 2015


No, Francis was literally part of an FBI-sanctioned plot to lure and capture him, plus he announced his presence by shooting Hannibal in the stomach. So even if the FBI washed their hands of it, it would totally be self defence.

All the murdered cops were Francis' work and if anyone was legally answerable for those it would be Jack, who thought up this harebrained scheme.
posted by tel3path at 12:55 PM on September 2, 2015


No, Francis was literally part of an FBI-sanctioned plot to lure and capture him

Well, Jack thought that was the case, so maybe the authorities will never figure out or care to acknowledge the true facts.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:05 PM on September 2, 2015


guys the Christie's Odd and Unusual auction has like a Hannibal Decor starter set

If only I had literally many thousands of dollars to spare
posted by The Whelk at 1:05 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Cute! If I had many thousands of dollars to spare, I'd give them to Martha and Bryan.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:07 PM on September 2, 2015


OMG, what a cutie!

Maybe somebody could knit you a plushie version of same, and you can put it next to your plushie Stagenstein.
posted by tel3path at 1:18 PM on September 2, 2015


But here's the thing. As someone pointed out upthread, Will DID in fact carry out the plan exactly as agreed. Lure Dolarhyde, kill Dolarhyde, kill Hannibal. They discussed it beforehand, they did it. The end. Finally something goes according to plan for Jack.

Jack also had to know that a Jenga stack of officers would get killed as collateral damage. I mean he just had to know it. The van crash happens in bright daylight, Jack et al don't arrive at the accident scene until nightfall. He must have taken the world's longest lunch break in order to give Will time to finish the job. It's like Mizumono, where Kade made a big deal about arresting Jack and Will and how they were not going to do illegal things to Hannibal, but didn't bother stationing any officers near Hannibal's house despite KNOWING FOR A FACT that Jack and/or Will would be on their way there!
posted by tel3path at 1:22 PM on September 2, 2015


I would argue that none of them, including Will, knew that Dolarhyde would intercept the convoy like that.

But then, they also didn't "know" that putting Chilton in the article/photo would put Chilton in mortal danger. They just knew it might happen and chose to ignore it because it provided them with an extra angle of advantage.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


But here's the thing. As someone pointed out upthread, Will DID in fact carry out the plan exactly as agreed. Lure Dolarhyde, kill Dolarhyde, kill Hannibal.

I agree. But that's leaving out the fact that Will and Francis conspired beforehand without any official sponsorship or even the FBI's knowledge (in advance or afterward) that what would actually happen is that Will would sell the "trap Francis" idea to the FBI in order to get Hannibal out of stir but would then turn Hannibal over to Francis to be murdered. Which is sort of what he did.

What Jack expected to happen was that the FBI or Will would kill Francis and Hannibal at the stakeout location.
But Will and Francis had some sort of advance plan to get Hannibal away from the stakeout location so that Francis could kill him (and then of course they'd turn on each other). We don't know if they arranged for Francis to attack the convoy or if they made some other plan and Francis decided to act on his own anyhow, but it's not a coincidence that he showed up.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:41 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Will and Francis's criminal conspiracy was a felony, so any death that resulted from it would be felony murder (who was or wasn't morally responsible is a whole other issue).
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:44 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


I want someone with a lot more time on their hands than me to write a comparison of the moral transformations of Walter White and Will Graham, thnx in advance
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:45 PM on September 2, 2015


Considering that Francis drives off in the other direction after freeing Will and Hannibal yet still finds the cliff house, the simplest explanation is that Will let Francis GPS track him.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:49 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Could Will have known where Hannibal's secret house was ahead of time?
posted by AdagioCantabile at 3:28 PM on September 2, 2015


I don't believe so. Nobody knew where it was. Hannibal had to lead Will there and then Dolarhyde had to, as speculated, GPS track Will there I guess.

The thing about this plan was that everyone completely fell for it. I feel like that's got to be attributable to only Will knowing the full picture of what was really going on, and everyone expecting Hannibal to be the double-crosser and only Hannigram expecting Francis to be the three-timing triple-crosser and Will knowing that he was going to be the four-timing quadruple-crosser.
posted by tel3path at 3:34 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


And just to be clear, I'm not suggesting Will intended for anybody other than Francis, Hannibal, and himself to die, just the usual collateral damage all the characters accept. It's so cute how exchanging murder attempts is now like an established courtship ritual for Hannigram, but I've lost track of the score. Let's see:

Matthew Brown W +1
Randall Tier H +1
(kitchen gutting doesn't count)
planned Florentine piazza knifing W +1
skull-sawing H+1
(does the Muskrat Farm rescue cancel out the skull-saw or just give Hannibal a "you owe me a rescue" coupon? oh, doesn't matter -- see below)
Francis changing Hannibal W +1
trying to save Hannibal from Francis (pays back Muskrat Farm rescue)
cliff-dive W+1

Am I leaving anything out? If not, that brings the current score to:
Will -- 4 attempts to kill Hannibal
Hannibal -- 2 attempts to kill Will

Uh oh, not-so-even Steven at the moment.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:56 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh my god, I've got it: Hannibal and Will struggle back up to the surface of the ocean, gasping and heaving, and Will says, "That may have been impulsive."
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:12 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]


Might Hannibal's framing of Will as the Chesapeake Ripper be relevant? Maybe even sending him after Abel Gideon?

These were not attempts to kill Will, directly, of course, but framing him for a series of capital crimes should be good enough for an asterisk.
posted by mountmccabe at 5:28 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, boiling it down to just blatant murder attempts omits a lot of the other horrible shit, most of which would go on Hannibal's score. It's just hard to determine relative point values, is all. Obviously, having Mason feed his face to Will's dogs gets a noticeably lower score than sending Francis after Molly and Walter.

If a math/business person among us can set up a spreadsheet and work out these details, it would help a lot in the overall accounting.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:34 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think encouraging a life threatening illness is worth a few more points
posted by The Whelk at 5:38 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


Also although it's true that Will in part helped to orchestrate it, in Season 2 when Mason's henchmen captured Hannibal and had him hanging over the man-eating pigs, Mason gave Will the knife to kill Hannibal, and instead Will used it to cut Hannibal out of his straight jacket thing, so I feel like that should count in Will's favor.

However, I do think they've gotten past the point of being able to determine what would make them "even steven." Will may have made more attempts on Hannibal's life, but Hannibal has certainly done more terrible shit to Will, on balance.

I actually don't think Hannibal will be as bothered about the whole "cliff dive" thing. In a way, that whole scene showed Will's devotion to Hannibal. He couldn't sit there and let Hannibal be killed by Dolarhyde, and there's something rather poetic and maybe even romantic (in a very tragic, fucked up way) about loving someone so much and being so drawn to a person that you feel like your only option is to do a simultaneous murder-suicide thing.

Hannibal seems to be most upset about Will showing disinterest and detachment. That's why, when Will did his whole, "I won't come looking for you, I won't miss you" speech, Hannibal decided to surrender himself to Jack. Without that completely dispassionate rejection, I don't think Hannibal would have turned himself in. He wants to know that he's gotten under Will's skin, that Will needs him and desires him, and I think those final ten minutes of the season finale made that very clear.

But I do really enjoy imagining Will waking up post cliff dive and being like, "Seriously, what the fuck? Can I really not catch a break, here?"

I mean, there might have been some impulsiveness to the cliff dive, but I think Will went into that knowing full well that he probably wouldn't survive. In his conversation with Hannibal right before Hannibal gets shot he says something along the lines of, "I don't think I can save myself, and maybe that's okay." I feel like he resigned himself to the fact that he couldn't just go back to his comfy home life with Molly, and that the only way to end this whole thing was to end his life and Hannibal's, while hopefully also taking out Dolarhyde.

So I don't think he'll be too pleased, at least at first, when he realizes that his plan didn't work. I hope we get a season four, and in that season, I really hope we get to see both of their reactions immediately post cliff dive.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:10 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


Also, I feel like we're really owed a fourth season, because season 3 really had very little actual Hannigram action, at least compared to seasons 1 and 2. Season 3 was this long extended cat and mouse game, with some important moments of foreplay, and that's all well and good, but now we deserve a season four filled with Hannigram scenes.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:12 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


You owe us MAKE OUTS
posted by The Whelk at 6:19 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


However, I do think they've gotten past the point of being able to determine what would make them "even steven." Will may have made more attempts on Hannibal's life, but Hannibal has certainly done more terrible shit to Will, on balance.

Yeah, I agree; that was joky. And actually, it's for the best for them (or anybody) to get past that stuff -- I mean scorekeeping, that is, not the ongoing dance of hostility and manipulation and power games because those are fundamental parts of the bond and attraction, which creeps me right out, but hey, they dig it.

I get why this season needed, narratively and dramatically, to have H and W largely onscreen alone or separate rather than together, and that made the finale all the more powerful, of course. And Hannibal got to be the entertaining prick he is with other pals. But story-wise, they have to be reunited, whatever that means, in the next arc. It would be weird to do the "different places thinking about each other" or "different places trying to get away from each other" or arms' length thing again. It's not that we need to see them together onscreen X amount or doing Y; but they need to be more day-to-day engaged with each other on some level just in terms of basic plot variation and interest.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:36 PM on September 2, 2015


Preferably partially naked make outs. At least one shirtless make out. That's not too much to ask, is it?

In the mean time, I think we deserve to see these supposedly much more homoerotic versions of the Hannigram scene in this episode. It will be one more thing to help sustain us while we wait for the next installment.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:36 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


It's not that we need to see them together onscreen X amount or doing Y

If Y=making out, then yes, yes we do need to see that.

they need to be more day-to-day engaged with each other on some level just in terms of basic plot variation and interest.

Yeah, this is exactly how I feel about how season 4 should play out.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:38 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


But what do they do after they go to the green goddess and have a discussion about cooking people where Will is all how horrible and also hey I'm learning?

Clean out the basement?
posted by The Whelk at 6:49 PM on September 2, 2015


Looks like AO3 servers crashed or something. I wonder if it was from a bunch of rabid Hannigram writers trying to post their season 4 fics and their season 3 fix it fics all at once.
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:53 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


It wasn't me. Only because I'm still in the queue waiting for my account.
posted by Stacey at 7:07 PM on September 2, 2015


They're annoyingly down which is sad cause I want to post this picture of how I imagine Will looked on the run, trying not to be recognized
posted by The Whelk at 7:09 PM on September 2, 2015


Wait how long does it take to make an account?

Should I preemptively get one in case I actually manage to Finish A Thing for once
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:14 PM on September 2, 2015


It's back!

Wait I think I may have an invitation, I got mine from Mefi too!
posted by The Whelk at 7:19 PM on September 2, 2015


Will on the run
posted by The Whelk at 7:22 PM on September 2, 2015


A couple things have stuck out to me now that I've been re-watching the rest of Season 1/2/3.

- It's interesting how, at the beginning of Season 3, so many of the characters made comments about already being dead. Will says it, Jack says it, Alana says it, and maybe someone else (Bedelia?). It definitely got repeated by multiple characters. That seems to be echoed in this episode when Hannibal tells Alana that she died in his kitchen.

- I think someone upthread also mentioned the fairytale connection with Hannibal making the "spun you gold" comment. I know this has been discussed before, but it was only on re-watch that it really stuck out to me how clear they make this in the first part of the season. The scene where Hannibal is eating Abel Gideon with Gideon at the table comes within the first 10 minutes of the first episode (antipasto), and after saying, "Let it be a fairy tale then," Hannibal actually says, "Once upon a time..." and we get led into the rest of the episode.

It's interesting because I feel like in a lot of ways, the second half of this season has been the most reality based part of the series. Yeah, the Red Dragon is off in his own world, but on the whole the show doesn't seem to have that same fevered-dream quality that the first two seasons had, which was mostly because of Will's various hallucinations. It's still there, of course, but I don't think it's to the same extent as any previous parts of the series.

I don't actually know exactly what to make of this connection, but it definitely stuck out to me.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:23 PM on September 2, 2015


I also think the red Dragon arc is the only time we're not inside Hanmibal OR Will's head, we're mostly in Francis' head, and it's a less lush, sophicated place.

There might be something on how when we're in Will's head, it's instant, intimate, person to person, direct and revelationary

Hannibal's head is theatrical, wry, detached, elegant , slow and coordinated , less about people.

Well except one person.
posted by The Whelk at 7:29 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


Ahh I have no invitations, sorry
posted by The Whelk at 7:32 PM on September 2, 2015


I also think the red Dragon arc is the only time we're not inside Hanmibal OR Will's head, we're mostly in Francis' head, and it's a less lush, sophicated place.

Yeah, actually, this whole reading makes complete sense. Season 1 and 2 are Will's waking fantasy/nightmare, season 3 part 1 is Hannibal spinning a fairy tale, and the second half of this season is Dolarhyde's reality, which is pretty concrete, except for the whole part about him becoming a red dragon.

Which brings us to season 4. It would make sense to have it somehow represent Hannibal and Will's combined fantasy/reality. What exactly that would look like is a different question.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:39 PM on September 2, 2015


Incidentally, does anyone know what the record for longest fanfare thread is? Because I feel like we may be in the running with this thread.

(I tried to look this up with infodumpster but couldn't figure out how to do it for fanfare.)
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:41 PM on September 2, 2015


I think the GoT threads go longer.

Hill and Hannibal's fused reality will involve at least some shopping for house furnishings if I have anything to say about it
posted by The Whelk at 7:45 PM on September 2, 2015


Hill and Hannibal's fused reality will involve at least some shopping for house furnishings if I have anything to say about it

And there will be lots of shirtless embraces if I have anything to say about it.

Maybe it will be one long Hannigram shipper fantasy. I think we can all agree that's the best of all possible worlds.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:47 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also, how often in Will's heads things are being just glimpsed, emerging from the darkness, revealed and then covered.
posted by The Whelk at 7:49 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Something would have to upset a Hannigram domestic bliss....
posted by The Whelk at 7:51 PM on September 2, 2015


GoT threads

Heh. They definitely win for most unique commentors per thread, but Hannibal seems likely top 5 if not top 3 of most active shows all things considered. We few, we chatty motherfuckers.
posted by sparkletone at 7:51 PM on September 2, 2015


Oh, one last tie in I meant to include:

Hannibal really does seem to get off on people asking for his help. I mean, it's not exactly surprising, but it is notable. In Season 1, he makes Abigail ask for his help to cover up Nick Boyle's murder. At the beginning of this season, we see a flashback to him making Bedelia ask for his help after she kills her patient. And then we have Will saying "pretty please" here.

It's also interesting because in that same Alana/Hannibal scene, she makes a comment about how Jack thought asking Hannibal for help wouldn't work, and Alana says she knows better. Hannibal makes a comment contradicting her, along the lines of "Jack was right, I would just taunt him," but really, Alana does know this one thing about Hannibal. He does love having people ask him for help.

And of course, having Will ask him for help post mic drop moment is just the icing on the (cannibal) cake.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:52 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


We're not quitters
posted by The Whelk at 7:52 PM on September 2, 2015


Well Hannibal likes putting people in his debt, ideally if he can implicate them in a crime so they're in debt to him but can't talk about it with anyone else, it's how he controls people and starts to infect them.
posted by The Whelk at 7:54 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


We few, we chatty motherfuckers.

Well, there have been so many important things to cover. I'm pretty sure a good 50% of this thread is all caps Hannigram flailing, but then we got down to the more serious stuff, like how best to cook a whole human leg.

Wr're not quitters

And we're still less than a week post finale airing. We could have years (or maybe even forever *sob*) to entertain ourselves while we wait for the next season.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:55 PM on September 2, 2015


As I say in defense to all this over discussion:

This is literally the only show where I would be going "wow that's some interesting blocking/staging that can't be intentional" and IT WAS IT TOTALLY WAS, the show is just as in love with itself and its fiddily obessed design and layered meaning and and detail and reference as any devoted tumbkr blog.

Which is why it's the best fan work ever.
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


I love that this show allows us to discuss all of these things in depth. Mad Men is the only show that I've seen recently which allowed for anywhere close to this kind of examination, but what makes this show extra awesome is the combination of being able to analyze every last scene down to the smallest detail and being able to flail crazily and breathlessly and in all caps about the overall story arc.

Basically, I love this show, and I love having other people who love obsessing over this show.

Although it is making it way too easy for me to avoid real world obligations, but hey, that's what the internet is for, right?
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:05 PM on September 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Okay, well, I know that the internet is for porn, but aside from the porn.

And of course, there's a pretty broad intersection of porn and fandom, if we're including erotica. I'm pretty sure like a good 80% of Johnlock stories on AO3 are basically sex scenes with some plot added to pad out the rest of the story. From what I've seen so far, Hannibal has a decent dose of x rated stuff as well, but I think there's a higher proportion of plot to sex than there seems to be in the Sherlock fandom.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:08 PM on September 2, 2015


OUR FANDOM IS A VERY LITERARY FANDOM (seriously all these high quality fics just appeared after the show came out and then people where like, yeah I did my doctoral work on Harris' novels)

Oddly Mad Man is a small fandom fic-wise. like, I have two stories the top twenty most hit Mad Men fics on Ao3 and they're just jokes about Bob Benson. Maybe people don't like having to inhabit the minds pace of rich depressed mid century people.
posted by The Whelk at 8:15 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


So while I was driving around the yard on the riding mower the other day, I diverted myself with a round of "What Hannibal Character(s) Are You?" Which is even more entertaining and depressing as a self-analysis tool than "Everybody is at least one archetypal character from The Cat in The Hat."
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:16 PM on September 2, 2015


Anyway! It's a rare show that rewards intense reading and re-reading and I always remember hearing about all the people who took pay cuts and worked nonstop days to work on the show, you get the impression everyone was working at absolutely their most engaged, most thoughtful, and the most Giving A Damn.

I mean, fans Give A Damn and this is the most giving A Damn show.
posted by The Whelk at 8:18 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


Incidentally, does anyone know what the record for longest fanfare thread is? Because I feel like we may be in the running with this thread.

Umm, I think it's this thread!!! I just went over the FanFare Archives (because I aim to please) and in terms of TV threads, we've topped the list at over 780+. Mad Men has a thread with 761 posts and Game of Thrones has one with 594. (Not that I'm keeping score or anything.) ;)
posted by AdagioCantabile at 8:34 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]


Umm, I think it's this thread!!! I just went over the FanFare Archives (because I aim to please) and in terms of TV threads, we've topped the list at over 780+. Mad Men has a thread with 761 posts and Game of Thrones has one with 594. (Not that I'm keeping score or anything.) ;)

Thanks for doing this! You saved me from having to do it.

Also, go us! Not that this is a competition.

Okay, fine, in my world, pretty much everything is a competition, but that may just be me.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:40 PM on September 2, 2015


But mostly – Will pulling out a gun to save Hannibal and getting stabbed in the face for it is proof that Hannibal’s hopes were not misplaced.

And it's pretty unambiguous evidence, compared to ~everything else that Will says or does. Other than the "They know" call (and I suppose getting away from Mason in S2?) pretty much all of his actions leave open some question regarding whether or not they might just or at least partly be a trap/manipulation/etc. (Or are, you know, moments when he is openly trying to kill Hannibal.) But intervening at this juncture doesn't serve any end other than helping Hannibal, and at this point the only reason he could conceivably be tempted to do that is if Hannibal's hopes were (despite Will's other conflicting motivations) not entirely misplaced.

For crafty ideas, I like BULK PURCHASES OF BEETLE WINGS.

...if I end up purchasing a bunch of raccoon toe bones or a brace of badger skulls or something, know that this is your fault.
posted by ubersturm at 8:42 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Now begins my reign of terror where I will try to make people watch this damn show. I have arranged to lend my DVDs to a friend next week.

One of these days I'll get my parents onboard. We like all the same shit! I know for a fact they would love this damn show. But my dad just randomly tuned into a season 2 episode and said it seemed too grim and depressing.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:43 PM on September 2, 2015


This is your becoming
posted by The Whelk at 8:44 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


I keep having those
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:45 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


Muahahahahaha, and it's only just beginning.

I don't know about all-y'all, but this is kind of how I engage with all the art and culture items I seriously care about -- obviously some more than others, and some I can take or leave, but yeah, when something speaks to me in whatever way (and many bands, books, movies, shows, etc. do) I get attached to it on some level. My earliest and most vivid memories are not of family even but songs, films, and books.

And the rare examples like this that have layers of complexity and invite and reward that sort of focus and engagement just make it more so. All the people involved in making the show seem to have that same mindset and not just about this one project. For a lot of them, this one project gave them a chance to geek out in that way, where probably a lot of the crap they have to do to put food on the table doesn't always do that.

It's kind of like Hannibal and Will -- I saw this show and immediately recognized a compatibility because it was made by people with brains like mine (only creative and imaginative, which mine is not) FOR people like me.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:47 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


Okay, last retrospective comment:

In Dolce, when Hannibal and Will are sitting in front of the Boticelli and they're talking about blurring together, Will says, "I'm curious if either of us could survive separation."

It sort of seems like this season finale finally answered that question. This second half of the season was Will trying to separate, getting married, trying to lead a peaceful life, etc, but then in the end, he realizes he's screwed and says, "Fuck it."

I have to give Will a lot of credit, though. For all the morally ambiguous things he's done, he still has a strong enough moral compass that when he answered "Can we survive separation?" with a resounding "NO" he decided to throw them both off a cliff rather than just running off to be happy murder husbands.

Too bad Will didn't take into account the fact that Hannibal is literally unkillable. I mean, Jack throws him through four sheets of glass, stabs him with a grappling hook, and then tosses him out a window, and Hannibal only ends up with some cuts and a bit of a limp. Even getting shot in the stomach didn't seem to slow him down that much.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:48 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


I don't know about all-y'all, but this is kind of how I engage with all the art and culture items I seriously care about

Yeah, I've always been this way as well. Maybe partly because I was an only child so I had to entertain myself a lot, but pretty much as far back as I can remember I would obsessively submerge myself in specific books and movies that really grabbed my attention.

One of the things I remember is when I was like 5 and became so obsessed with Watership Down (the movie, since I wasn't reading chapter books yet). I'm pretty sure this says something about me, considering the fact that it's actually rather disturbing despite being about bunnies. My mother was pretty horrified when she finally sat down to watch it with me and saw bunnies ripping each other to shreds, since at that point I had already made her rent it from blockbuster so many times that she finally just bought the video tapes. (Oh man, blockbuster, video tapes, I feel old.

I saw this show and immediately recognized a compatibility because it was made by people with brains like mine (only creative and imaginative, which mine is not) FOR people like me.

I decided I would love this show based on a handful of comments I read on an article about Hannibal being cancelled. People were all like, "But are they going to get naked and have sex before the finale?" and I was like, that sounds like my kind of show.

Apparently, my kind of show involves murder and homoerotic subtext. That's why Sherlock is one of my other major TV show obsessions, although it doesn't allow for the same kind of rich analysis that this show does.

Actually, I guess I could also add, "TV show that is basically high production fanfiction" in addition to "murder and homoerotic subtext."
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:57 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


One of these days I'll get my parents onboard. We like all the same shit! I know for a fact they would love this damn show. But my dad just randomly tuned into a season 2 episode and said it seemed too grim and depressing.

Incidentally, when I try to tell my mother about this show, she gets the same horrified look that I imagine she had when she first saw bunnies tearing themselves to pieces in Watership Down.

So I guess some things never change.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:59 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


OUR FANDOM IS A VERY LITERARY FANDOM (seriously all these high quality fics just appeared after the show came out and then people where like, yeah I did my doctoral work on Harris' novels)

As far as I can tell the fanfics do exemplify this, although I'm kind of surprised that there isn't a higher volume of fanfics for Hannibal on AO3. There's a little over 8,000 works, compared to, for example, Sherlock which has like 70,000+.

Of course, Sherlock had a couple years head start. Also, I think the fact that Sherlock has only had nine 1.5 hour episodes in a span of 5 years has definitely made the fanbase very creatively driven, so based on that I predict we'll see a major uptick in Hannibal fanfic while we wait for another season.

Okay I need to stop posting to this thread so that I can finish doing actual work and then get to sleep.

(Hannibal has really not done good things for my sleep schedule. Or my productivity, for that matter. But I have enjoyed every minute of it.)
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:06 PM on September 2, 2015


Wrath of the lamb photo recap
posted by The Whelk at 9:41 PM on September 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


This is the 800th comment

What is wrong with us
posted by The Whelk at 9:42 PM on September 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


What is wrong with us

I don't know, but if someone wants to come over to my apartment and hold a gun to my head until I stop avoiding doing my work by checking this thread and re-watching Hannibal episodes, I would really appreciate it.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:50 PM on September 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


I feel quite strongly that the thread should tail off slowly over the next year into about a dozen people posting links to very good Hannibal fanfic.

Pinboard's Hannibal tag is my current homepage.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 10:25 PM on September 2, 2015 [5 favorites]


Speaking of fanfic, Interview With An Empath has gotten the most response out of the gate of any of my previous ones in terms of comments and kudos. I didn't plan on extending it after 3 bits but, epilogue?

I can't think of something that would distrub the domestic bliss but I can think of them arguing over produce selection.
posted by The Whelk at 10:27 PM on September 2, 2015


(I'll take it as a lesson in trying to convey domestic life and interiors, and also describing cannibalism over lunch in public)
posted by The Whelk at 10:35 PM on September 2, 2015


Okay, I'm kind of embarrassed to put this out there, but hey, after our discussion of cannibal kitchen best practices, I feel like we're all friends here.

After the rollercoaster ride that was the season 3 finale, I may or may not have gone on the hunt for every Hannigram fanfic in which Will is completely fucked up and Hannibal helps Will in his own messed up cannibal way. So yeah, if you're in the mood for that, you can check out my bookmarks over at AO3. I think I have 40 Hannibal fics bookmarked (and counting) so far. Some are better than others, but the one thing I can guarantee is that there is nothing having to do with alpha/beta/omega/whatever. (I absolutely cannot wrap my head around that shit, and I consider myself a pretty open minded fanfic reader, since I grew up reading Harry Potter fanfic, and lord knows those fanfics covered a lot of strange ground.)

I've only written Sherlock fanfic to date, but I plan on posting my own Hannigram fic soon.
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:54 PM on September 2, 2015 [6 favorites]




Liz: They apparently let in about 1000 people per day to AO3. When I stuck my name in the queue there were just under 4000, so I should make it to the top of the list today. You may want to go ahead and hop in the queue if you think you'll want to join later.
posted by Stacey at 2:44 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


I just found out Mads is gonna be at Fan Expo this weekend in Toronto and I have no money to go and basically what I am saying is burn everything to the ground
posted by Kitteh at 6:51 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


Are there Hannibal T shirts out there somewhere to be purchased? Because I would love to have a Tshirt that says "Murder Husbands" and then has a picture like this one from the finale (with or without the rainbows; I found this pic in the "photo recap The Whelk posted upthread).

Oh, and also maybe one that shows Hannibal in the cop car with a "Going my way?" caption.

Incidentally, that photo recap blog post is hilarious.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:57 AM on September 3, 2015


Also, I was thinking some more about the post credits scene, and I could kind of see a scenario like this one:

Hannibal: "Before we go run off on our romantic getaway, I have to go eat a few friends. You know, like Alana and Bedelia."

Will: "I don't feel okay about that plan."

Hannibal: "I promised them, and I always keep my promises."

Will: "Compromise is important in a relationship, so how about I go along with you eating Bedelia and you leave Alana alone."

Hannibal: "I don't know..."

Will: "Pretty please. Also we can have sex afterwards."

Hannibal: "Deal."

You know, something like that.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:01 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I'm hoping Will is able to talk Hannibal out of eating Alana and her family. I feel strongly that he will, mostly because once he turns those puppy dog eyes on Hannibal, Hannibal just can't refuse him.
posted by Kitteh at 8:10 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


I just found out Mads is gonna be at Fan Expo this weekend in Toronto and I have no money to go and basically what I am saying is burn everything to the ground

Wow, he's obviously used to fan events and swooning adoring hordes and all, but can he have any idea of the sobbing, keening, howling, trembling, bereft yet strangely aroused throng he's about to encounter this time?
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:15 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


I feel like he will, but like Hannibal will be petty about it forever, like when he doesn't want to do the dishes or let the dogs out or something he'll be all "BUT I AM LETTING ALANA LIVE FOR YOU. THE LEAST YOU CAN DO IS SCRUB THE CRUSTY STUFF IN THE TAGINE."
posted by Stacey at 8:15 AM on September 3, 2015 [8 favorites]


Geez, I'm an adult rational person who understands reality, yet I have this urge to drive to Toronto to tell Mads to write some equations so he can travel back in show-world time and make Hannibal STEP AWAY FROM THE FUCKING CLIFF. Except then Will would probably just dive over anyway, but he'd be alone and friendless in the Atlantic. [sob]
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:21 AM on September 3, 2015


Wow, he's obviously used to fan events and swooning adoring hordes and all, but can he have any idea of the sobbing, keening, howling, trembling, bereft yet strangely aroused throng he's about to encounter this time?

*continues sobbing at not being able to be part of this throng*
posted by Kitteh at 8:24 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


Seriously, it's going to be three days of roomfuls of people bawling their eyes out. Fortunately, he seems like an irrepressibly cheerful person, but still.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:25 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is the 800th comment

What is wrong with us


And it's not even a week yet
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 8:30 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


And it's not even a week yet

Oh god, today's Thursday [even more sobbing]
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:31 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


Remember when Thursdays were happy carefree days?
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:35 AM on September 3, 2015


My current way of coping with my loss, at least until my AO3 account appears, is repurposing cheesy office motivational posters to be about The Fancy Cannibal Hour, so maybe I'll throw a few more of those up on the Tumblr tonight to keep fannibals' spirits from flagging in this difficult time.
posted by Stacey at 8:38 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


Kitteh, if you really want to go to Fan Expo, I'll spring for the ticket. I think we need to have at least one official Designated MeFi Expresser of Sorrow, Admiration, and General Show Loyalty present so that our copious weeping is represented.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:51 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


(Augh it's been a week and I still have so many, many feelings about the finale. Thank heaven for this thread.)

Regarding fic, my very fave Hannibal AO3 author at the moment is Emungere. Her stories are mostly long, plot driven, various flavors of kinky, and the characterizations work really well, I think.
posted by merriment at 9:18 AM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


Metafilter, I am here to say that I will Officially Represent us this Saturday at the Fan Expo. I have noted Mads photo op times. I will hold up a sign whilst getting my picture taken with him.

I'd like to thank FelliniBlank for the offer. This is nuts but a good kind of nuts.
posted by Kitteh at 9:24 AM on September 3, 2015 [11 favorites]


That's completely delightful. Give Mads our sincere and possibly slightly unhinged love, please.
posted by Stacey at 9:27 AM on September 3, 2015 [6 favorites]


"Miss, why are you crying?"

"OH NO REASON"
posted by Kitteh at 9:28 AM on September 3, 2015




is repurposing cheesy office motivational posters to be about The Fancy Cannibal Hour,

DEVOTION
Just because everyone says he's wrong for you doesn't mean he's not perfect for you
posted by The Whelk at 9:41 AM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]


"Miss, why are you crying?"

"I'm actually about 20 or 40 people crying."
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:41 AM on September 3, 2015 [9 favorites]


repurposing cheesy office motivational posters to be about The Fancy Cannibal Hour

Bet Will wishes he'd seen this three seasons ago
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:46 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


I listened to the final Eat the Rudecast episode, and two of the three hosts were big Siouxsie Sioux fans from way back. It really did give me a better appreciation of the song. I am coming around to it more now, although I would have still preferred some good old Reitzell insanity over a traditional melodic song.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:51 AM on September 3, 2015


Okay, I have no idea why that comment posted as blank. What I thought I had typed, was that I am saving that, The Whelk. I'm currently working through actual stupid motivational posters that exist in the world and just need to have their images changed, but I might could do the Devotion one later. (Or...oh god...IS that a real poster somewhere?)
posted by Stacey at 9:52 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


(And the mods are so fast they already got my blank comment tossed down the memory hole. Thank you, speedy mods!)
posted by Stacey at 9:52 AM on September 3, 2015


A poster of various murdered people on the show

YOU CANT MAKE AN OMELETTE WITHOYT BREAKING A FEW EGGS
posted by The Whelk at 9:59 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


I would have still preferred some good old Reitzell insanity over a traditional melodic song.

I think it kind of had to be an actual song (even if some people aren't loving that particular one) because of the whole Hannigram dance and dance-with-death that BringerTom referenced upthread.

The lyrics are nice; somebody wrote that Fuller supposedly said in an interview I can't find that Siouxsie wrote them from Hannibal's perspective, which sounds plausible, what with the teacup "chase to end all time" bit, etc. I'm sure Bryan was cackling in the editing room and going (accurately), "Ha, THIS will totally tear the fans' hearts out" when he had the song come back in at the end with "Oh, the dye" exactly sync-ed to Will's head hitting Hannibal's shoulder and H's reaction. If I saw this show every day forever, I would remember those 3 seconds.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:31 AM on September 3, 2015


Time to start reading Hannibal Rising, everyone, this weekend.

it's character building and will help you appreciate the quality of the series all the more.
posted by tel3path at 10:34 AM on September 3, 2015


I'm sure Bryan was cackling in the editing room

I also appreciated that the shot of Bedelia at the table syncs up with "I will survive, live and thrive." It kind of puts the lie to any idea that Bedelia is surrendering/going out on her own terms.

THE ICE QUEEN REIGNETH ON
posted by sparklemotion at 10:54 AM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


A poster of various murdered people on the show

YOU CANT MAKE AN OMELETTE WITHOYT BREAKING A FEW EGGS


Formal request for further specificity: Hannibal (dressed for the kitchen in apron), Will and Jack standing in front of every single deceased LEO and security guard from all three seasons.
posted by carsonb at 10:58 AM on September 3, 2015


Wrath of the lamb photo recap

And another! This one is really funny ("Will doesn’t even give a fuck anymore and says they should suggest he helped Hannibal escape. Jack & Alana are literally just like “that sounds authentic” and they all offer a toast to FUCKING WHATEVER"), but also I really loved her summary of the ending:
Will slides his arm more fully around Hannibal’s neck, pulling him close, and he tips, and topples them both off the cliff.

It’s flawless. I could hardly breathe at the impact of it. I was shocked when it happened, and shocked anew that I hadn’t seen it coming, because it’s completely perfect. How did you give us something so inevitable that is such a surprise?? Because of course. Of fucking course. Of course Will would sacrifice himself in the height of his love, and pull them both to their deaths. Of course he would have this last pulse of reckless goodness, clinging to his humanity as tightly as he clings to the man who undid him, and who he undid in return.

FEYEST WILL. I am wailing. Doomed to love & doomed to death. I love you and that’s why I’ll kill us. I love you and that’s how I’ll kill us. I can’t live loving you — but love me in death. Love me to death.

And of course Hannibal will fall with him, tip over the edge with Will in his arms. Because he’s already falling. This is all he’s ever wanted. Will, warm from a kill, telling him that what they shared was beautiful. A Will no longer resisting, literally leaning into him, seeking the comfort that only Hannibal can give him, that Hannibal wants to give him so badly — and surprising him still, impressing him to the very end, by his consummate final trick. That indomitable Will spirit that Hannibal so loves, in his aching paradox of affection for him. Sweet yielding Will and scrappy fighter Will all bundled into one, bundled into his arms. Oh Hannibal could not ask for more. He falls with him. Love me to death.

IT’S SO PERFECT. Because we want Will to win, and we want him to admit that he loves Hannibal in return, and this gives us both. A fatal giving in. IT’S SO PERFECT, because Will did kill Hannibal with his hands — just not how Hannibal thought. IT’S SO PERFECT, because ahhhah ha ha Will plunges them into the ocean. WATER. Will’s element. He drowns Hannibal in himself, lets the crushing waves take them both. IT’S SO PERFECT, because it’s the most dramatically romantic thing to ever happen on this dramatic romantic show.

This transcendent deathly love. This story. Three years. Three years of torment, of bewildering beauty and agonized affections. Of killers and killer jokes. Three years of the hunger the crush the terrible intimacy of being seen until at last — oh my love, we both go down together.

IT’S BEAUTIFUL.


[...]

If this is the end, and it may well be, then they died in each other’s arms that night, lost to the cold Atlantic, and it was absolute fucking poetry.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:42 PM on September 3, 2015 [12 favorites]


weird deer recap!

Also, speaking of Morbid Anatomy, Italy, and snails.
posted by ubersturm at 12:46 PM on September 3, 2015


Oh hey you totally just posted that. But that's OK, because it is a good recap that is arguably worth doubleposting.
posted by ubersturm at 12:50 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


I really loved her summary of the ending

This was really the wrong day for me to try to quit sobbing.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:58 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh hey you totally just posted that. But that's OK, because it is a good recap that is arguably worth doubleposting.

Yeah, that's pretty much everything I could ever want to say or hear or think about that scene.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:42 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


This is why I wish the stinger didn't exist, because if the show is over now, then that cliff jump is the absolute perfect ending.

(This is why people thought Bedelia did it to herself, Bryan! Because you wrote the perfect death scene to end the series with and then immediately undermined it, and people looked for a way to un-undermine it! Don't get me wrong, if it comes back, then bam, they didn't die, cool. But if it doesn't come back? They died.)
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:50 PM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]


What are the odds Bedelia did it to herself because she was just very hungry
posted by shakespeherian at 2:02 PM on September 3, 2015 [4 favorites]


It's a perfect perfect perfect Season 3 finale, and it's one of the great chapter endings to any work of art ever and possibly the greatest thing I've ever seen onscreen, but the perfect ending for this show is the one that will be at the end of Season 6.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:04 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


(And yes, I know it's likely not to turn out that way and will accept whatever reality turns out to be . . . sometime after next June.)
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:08 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


Even though it is really not supported by the text I will cling to my "it's a metaphor" interpretation of that last scene because, well, I can do what I want
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:15 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


That's the nice thing about the open-ended ending as a whole. We know nothing conclusive about anything, and the dreamlike nature of the show gives us plenty of interpretive and speculative latitude for whatever we individually need to imagine is happening after the finale, in order to feel satisfied or keep from going insane from grief as the case may be. At the moment, I need for Hannibal and Will to be alive (which is awful because it's the objectively worst outcome for everyone) because it's too painful to let them, i.e., the show, go.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:22 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


No, if it doesn't come back they didn't die because it's an established trope of detective literature that if you fling yourself off a cliff with your mortal mirror-enemy you survive.

Will just wasn't genre-savvy enough to know he wasn't real.
posted by tel3path at 2:36 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


Hannibal and Will dying after falling off a cliff together is basically the happiest ending they could get, and that's the one in my head until and unless BF comes back and has to undo it.

And I'm terribly sorry for Bedelia, who will have to wait a while next to her leg, which is getting cold, before she finally gives up, puts the fork down, and goes to get fitted for a nice prosthetic.
posted by PussKillian at 2:44 PM on September 3, 2015 [4 favorites]


Yeesh, I just realized that my desire for more seasons is more or less the audience equivalent of what Hannibal did to Bella. Sure, let's revive this long-suffering character against his express wishes so he can be tortured some more for my entertainment.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:00 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


how about this: Hannibal gets a head injury with subclinical effects just enough that Will has some hope of training him.

or something like that
posted by tel3path at 3:55 PM on September 3, 2015


That Weird Deer photo recap is the definitive recap of all recaps and is nearly as beautiful as the show itself. "When I look back from the distance, the house looks like a boat on the sea. It’s really the only time I feel safe" -- IKNEW I was missing some heartbreaking callback in that shot.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:31 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


Listening to the Matter of Taste podcast got me so excited for this week's epi- *someone leans in and whispers in ear*

O... Oh. I see.
posted by sparkletone at 6:52 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


I've only gotten partway through the weird deer recap, but oh my god this line:

Hannibal, showing sincere self-control, resists the urge to run over there and push his temple against the glass under Will’s palm like the giant murder cat he is.

posted by litera scripta manet at 7:18 PM on September 3, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hey I just realized that Will, literal and metaphorical fisherman guy, lured and snared and (sort of) gutted not one but two people in this episode
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:27 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yikes Richard
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:29 PM on September 3, 2015


I've only gotten partway through the weird deer recap, but oh my god this line:

Oh so you're not up to the Murder Haus extravaganza yet? Here, have a ginormous box of tissues on me, and don't plan on sleeping for a while.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:36 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh so you're not up to the Murder Haus extravaganza yet?

Oh god, I'm there, I'm there and it's beautiful and painful and heartbreaking and so absolutely true and shit now I have to go watch the episode again.

I really hope that Siouxsie Sioux song doesn't become, like, a big radio hit because it will be really awkward if it starts playing while I'm at the grocery store and suddenly I'm getting these weird looks because I'm sobbing in the cereal aisle.

AHHHH THIS SHOW THIS FANDOM THIS EVERYTHING AHHHH HANNIGRAM

I just can't. I'm dying. I NEED A SEASON 4.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:42 PM on September 3, 2015


More coherently, I have come around to the idea that the most likely Bedelia scenario is that Hannigram has come back to feast on her, but I still don't like that reading, which I was reminded of while reading that recap.

First of all, by the time we got to that scene, it didn't even occur to me that this was Hannibal's doing, because it seemed so pointless for them to show that as the post credits big reveal scene. The fact that the cliff plunge is a major trope ever since ACD/Reichenbach should be enough to tell us that they'll survive, assuming the show comes back for a fourth season, and if it doesn't come back, then there's really no point in spelling it out. So I think I jumped to "Bedelia did it herself and now she's stuck waiting around for the murder husbands" because it actually felt more true to the show. It would be twisted and fucked up and kind of heartbreaking and isn't that really what this show is about?

I also like the way that final scene could serve as a metaphor for the audience: We're all just going to be sitting at our dinner tables partially dismembered, looking vaguely drugged, terrified, and orgasmic while we wait for the return of Hannigram. Maybe we'll be waiting a few minutes, maybe years, maybe forever, but we'll be here in this limbo until they return.

So yeah, clearly that scenario has some plot holes (like how would she do it, would she actually do it, etc as discussed up thread), but I think I'm going to embrace it, and I feel validated by the weird deer recap agreeing with me on this point.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:53 PM on September 3, 2015


Listening to the Matter of Taste podcast got me so excited for this week's epi-

I can't make it through the podcast or basically any of these articles (except for the flailing fandom recaps, apparently) because it just kills me to hear about all the amazing stuff we could get in the fourth season but may never get, and especially the juxtaposition of, "the fourth season would show lots of Hannigram action" and "That is, if we get a fourth season, which you know, we probably won't, but you can still hold out your vain foolish hope because it's not impossible exactly but it's also not likely, but you know stranger things...so yeah, happy suffering fandom!"

It feels like I'm being stabbed right in the heart, and it's just too much. I can't take it, I just can't.

brb time for some ugly crying.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:59 PM on September 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


No sleep for me and it's my own damn fault, but...

I was re-watching the second Red Dragon episode, and seeing Will and Hannibal discuss the crime scene left me wondering, what would they do to keep things exciting when they're on the run together? I mean, I know Hannibal has his artsy fartsy crap, and Will could go fishing, but I feel like they have this combined twisted energy that needs an outlet.

So, then I started imagining this much darker season 4 universe where Hannigram's version of a sex game is that Hannibal goes and stages elaborate murder, and then Will has to come in and examine the crime scene. Maybe sometimes Will will be blindfolded. Maybe Hannibal will describe the scene to him, in that sexy voice of his. I mean, the possibilities are endless, but it's got promise.

And as this is happening, as Will tries to work his way into Hannibal's serial killer mind (and of course, Hannibal will try to adopt different serial killer role models each time), maybe he'll try to determine what this kill says about Hannibal's mood, how he felt about the other person, was he trying to dissemble or hide or expose, but the whole time, they'll slowly circle each other, share prolonged and incredibly meaningful eye contact, and they'll get closer and closer until Will is delivering his final "This is my design" line with his lips half an inch away from Hannibal's face.

And sure, maybe sometimes, they'll just strip off their clothes and have sex, but most of the time, they won't. Instead, they'll play a game of chicken to see who caves and touches the other first, Hannibal whispering witty comebacks and double entendres in Will's ear, holding his hand out to cup Will's cheek never quite making contact, Will standing so close that he can feel Hannibal's body heat, maybe letting his lips hover over Hannibal's jugular. They stay like this until someone breaks (Hannibal will be the one to break because how can you not devour Will Graham when he's like this?) and maybe they'll press their lips together, or maybe Hannibal will sink his teeth into Will's shoulder while Hannibal digs his nails into Hannibal's lower back, and then they'll press up against each other, not grinding, just forceful, crushing contact.

And then they'll collapse into a post (murder) coital puddle of fluff, still standing, barely, as Hannibal holds Will's head against his chest, stroking his hair with the other hand, while Will collapses into Hannibal, completely limp, eyes closed, savoring every breath and every heart beat.

Um, okay, sorry, I got a little carried away. I guess this is less a comment and more a preview of the story I didn't realize I was writing until this very second.

brb off to feed the plot bunnies.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:16 PM on September 3, 2015 [5 favorites]


Oh hey, Tumblr or whoever got a key song lyric wrong:

Oh, the skies, tumbling from your eyes
So sublime, the chase to end all time
Seasons call and fall from grace and uniform in human form
Anatomical, metaphysical
etc.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:42 PM on September 3, 2015


Interview With An Empath has a new chapter

because they have to flirt damn it
posted by The Whelk at 11:30 PM on September 3, 2015 [2 favorites]




Ha, I realized another thing Bedelia's leg could be: a compromise. OK, you can eat some of her, but you mustn't kill her -- which has the added benefit of leaving her alive, pissed, and bitchy. We already know Rule 1 of Hannigram Club is that the influence and Becoming goes both ways. Hannibal's not doing a smug smirky victory dance after the Murder Consummation (though I'm sure he still will do that plenty since that's who he is); he's embracing and displaying his more Will-like qualities. I don't know that post-bluff Hannibal would need much if any subjugation or behavior mod to practice some niceness and restraint.

Will has that huge fear of losing himself and "turning into" Hannibal, but that's kind of ridiculous, or it only works in a universe where Hannibal is 100% supernatural demon and the influence goes only one way. The more the two influence each other, the more the power differential evens out. There's only so far that Hannibal could darkify Will because at the same time he's being humanized. Whereas Hannibal has much more one-way poisoning potential on Alana or Jack (and everybody else) because they don't have Will's special bond and symbiosis with him.

Plus most of Will's fears about himself are really overblown. He could empathize enough with Francis to destroy his life with Molly, but not enough to hurt her. Because he's still himself too. That's been the cool thing about Will in this last arc is that while the work and Hannibal have affected him as they typically do, he has still seemed in control and self-possessed. Molly and Will couldn't sustain a relationship where he was always envisioning murdering her, but we already know that's a feature rather than a bug for Hannigram.

Yeah, it sounds sort of Dexter-y on the surface, but instead of some Dad Code, it would be the negotiation, conflict, sparring, dance, etc. you see in any relationship. If anybody can explore that without it being some idiotic Murder Odd Couple, it's Fuller. In S1 or most of S2 I could never have envisioned the end of 3x13 as a destination these guys could reach in a wholly organic, believable, complex way that's respectful to the characters, but look where we are.

Also, I don't think Will even needs a post-bluff epiphany or New Attitude. The big obstacle to resolving his Hannibal problem is that he just can't bring himself to kill the guy, or even stand there and let Francis kill the guy, much as he wants to, and he knows it. The only reason he's able to do it on the cliff is happenstance (and maybe a little leftover Chiyoh fairydust). Because of where they land after killing Francis, all Will has to do is yield to his desire: move toward Hannibal, lean in, embrace him, and swoon. Yeah, he wants to kill them both, but it's the most passive murder attempt I've ever seen. It could almost be accidental. It's not a leap or shove, just a slight rock, and gravity does the rest. It can be read as more of a yielding to chance or fate: almost a COIN FLIP. Heads, we die together or one of us dies; tails, we live together or try to.

If W&H had incidentally ended up over next to the house where there was no place to fall except into each other's arms, I don't think there's a fucking chance in hell that Will would have been willing or able to actively harm Hannibal after what they've now shared when he couldn't do it or even watch it beforehand.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:24 AM on September 4, 2015 [8 favorites]


They could be sort of Murder Tracy-and-Hepburn, until everything goes horribly wrong and Hannibal somehow loses Will's humanizing influence, which will set him up to be the awful, awful, bitter nasty SOTL Hannibal.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:33 AM on September 4, 2015


I was picturing a scenario where Hannibal was like "ok Will. I won't kill anybody you won't want me to. But every time I feel like murdering someone, I'll run it by you." And of course Will would always say no... until one day the guy in question was just SUCH a bad guy...
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:42 AM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


Interview With An Empath has a new chapter

Never stop!

Sea Change is one of the better new S3-codas

That one is frighteningly well-written too and handles the explicit stuff pretty plausibly. The bit about Empress Josephine in the candlelight and this sentence are especially wonderful: "He gives Hannibal the majority of the money he'd stashed away in a coffee tin and leaves Hannibal at a Farmer's Market, frowning at an apparently inadequate zucchini selection."
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:45 AM on September 4, 2015


cannibal Murder is like the good China or a threeway, you only bring it out on special occasions
posted by The Whelk at 10:47 AM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


I was picturing a scenario where Hannibal was like "ok Will. I won't kill anybody you won't want me to. But every time I feel like murdering someone, I'll run it by you." And of course Will would always say no... until one day the guy in question was just SUCH a bad guy...

And even with Bedelia's leg, Will knows she has done some reprehensible shit, and he WARNED HER to get the hell out of Dodge lest she become dinner. I can see him living with that outcome.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:48 AM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


"Is it important to you that Hannibal take something from me?" she asked Will earlier this season, thereby LITERALLY putting her foot in her mouth
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:01 AM on September 4, 2015 [7 favorites]


And won't she be fit to be tied when they dine and then just leave her there alive and go off to their marvelous life?
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:05 AM on September 4, 2015


And the best part is that Fuller's right that some variation on these scenarios totally lends itself to a feature film or 3-episode arc treatment if necessary, and a feature especially is so much easier to pitch for a niche-appeal property.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:12 AM on September 4, 2015


"OBSCENE, VERY OBSCENE" Hannibal FCC Complaints - "Consumer found this to be terribly gruesome, sadistic, bloody, gory, absolutely horrific, sickening and twisted to say the least."
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:29 AM on September 4, 2015 [5 favorites]


"OBSCENE, VERY OBSCENE" Hannibal FCC Complaints

Wow, they're all actually about the violence and gore; I was sure it was going to be "Eeew, tattooed naked butts and homo hugging" except that people, even fans of the show, in some quarters are so wilfully blind to the Hannigram content that it beggars belief.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:36 AM on September 4, 2015


Okay, I'm going to confess something that is probably going to make me sound like an idiot, but keep in mind that I just started watching this show a couple months ago, and apparently I live under a rock, so...

WTF HUGH DANCY IS BRITISH????

I guess I've never listened to any interviews he's done until now. It's not even surprising, exactly. I just... had no idea.

Not that this is relevant to anything except for proving the fact that I am only attracted to actors who are not American.* Ugh, I really have to move to the UK, for this and so many other reasons.

*Unless you count my adolescent crush on Johnny Depp, but doesn't everyone go through a Johnny Depp phase?
posted by litera scripta manet at 12:30 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


You should watch the Venus in Fur bootleg, he spends the entire show switching between a British accent and an American accent.

(and also because he gets slapped around by Nina Arianda the entire time)
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:38 PM on September 4, 2015 [4 favorites]


savage Grace is also good if you want to see him as a robe-wearing artist who has occasional incestious bisexual three ways
posted by The Whelk at 12:44 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


WTF HUGH DANCY IS BRITISH????

Yeah he's from Stoke / Newcastle under Lyme in the West Midlands which has a distinctive accent... but I'm guessing he's lost that along the way as he's basically RP in interviews
posted by fearfulsymmetry at 12:50 PM on September 4, 2015


What if hannibal installed a safety net on the cliff in case someone decided to shove him off it
posted by tel3path at 12:53 PM on September 4, 2015 [3 favorites]


(and also because he gets slapped around by Nina Arianda the entire time)

Well that would be cathartic. I've been studiously trying not to think much about the thing because it will make me upset again and enraged. At least she got out alive.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:05 PM on September 4, 2015


ok so everyone needs to link their favourite murder husbands fics for me pls thank
posted by poffin boffin at 1:20 PM on September 4, 2015


Clean or dirty?
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:23 PM on September 4, 2015


i do not find such distinctions necessary in life
posted by poffin boffin at 1:24 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


Okey doke: here's mine
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:26 PM on September 4, 2015


God they're everywhere
posted by The Whelk at 1:39 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


I love that we've reached the "projecting onto mannequins" stage of fandom.
posted by yellowbinder at 1:51 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's in his iconic hunters green! I am not a crazy person!
posted by The Whelk at 1:54 PM on September 4, 2015


Someone make a legless Bedelia mannequin to go with them.
posted by Stacey at 2:01 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


fic rec
posted by tel3path at 2:09 PM on September 4, 2015


"OBSCENE, VERY OBSCENE" Hannibal FCC Complaints

Faves:
--A review of it's rating are requested as this show has evidently been picked up for 13 episodes. What is the target market and what is the show trying to teach them?

--Can we not just watch "The Office" in peace?
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:19 PM on September 4, 2015


you know, something I hadn't considered until now was how Hannibal would react to probable upchucking of somebody who is eating their own leg. Gideon only went so far as to angrily clank his fork, but one does imagine some vomiting would be in play.

Do you think he cleans them off tenderly and refills their plate?
posted by angrycat at 2:21 PM on September 4, 2015


What if hannibal installed a safety net on the cliff in case someone decided to shove him off it?

I just keep reminding myself that falling from a CGI/post-production cliff is FAR less injurious than a location one and envision Will and Hannibal falling 5 feet onto an airbag.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:16 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh fcuk I'm not joking am I? It was super obvious someone would push Hanni off that cliff sooner or later, because that's what cliffs are for, so he installed a bunch of safety nets not visible to the naked eye in the dark

And cut to next season they are literally hanging off the cliff in one of these nets and Will is like "oh bollocks"
posted by tel3path at 3:17 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


Heck yeah it is hannibal's cliff house of hypnosis, he only made Will think they were standing on the edge of a cliff but it turned out to all be imaginary and they did fall 5 feet onto an airbaf

"No you didn't kill me, Will, but you absolutely would have and greater love hath no man"

"Oh shut up"
posted by tel3path at 3:20 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


That's kind of what I was getting at when I mentioned upthread how the show had them stand out there and talk for 5 minutes about the damn bluff eroding, and then Hannibal stood RIGHT THERE in the same spot after Francis died. It just seems odd.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:22 PM on September 4, 2015


It just seems really unlike Fuller to do such a blatant loud-ass OH LOOK HERE IS THE PLACE WHERE THEY SHALL DIE, GET IT, VIEWERS? thing without having some sort of mindfuck angle.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:24 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


I watched the edited set of tracking shots up the side of the cliff (another LOOK LOOK AT THE BIG TALL CLIFF gesture) like 20 times to see where they made cuts. Because THAT'S where the shelf/net is.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:26 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, except Bryan does like to make us feel despondent, so those neon signs would accomplish that.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:27 PM on September 4, 2015


That's kind of what I was getting at when I mentioned upthread how the show had them stand out there and talk for 5 minutes about the damn bluff eroding, and then Hannibal stood RIGHT THERE in the same spot after Francis died. It just seems odd.

I kind of thought part of the reasoning for that "the bluff is eroding" scene was that it was supposed to be a metaphor for how all their deceptions and disguises are falling away piece by piece. Even with that being said, they still probably didn't need to stand out there that long, although maybe Hannibal was buying time because, like, Dolarhyde needed a chance to go hide in the bushes or something.

Or maybe we'll find out that Hannibal was some Lithuanian cliff diving prodigy. Heck, it's his safe house, so for all we know, he likes to jump off the bluff just for funsies. If he kept a good hold on Will and flipped them so that they were going in feet first (as opposed to a belly flop (ouch!) or head first which increases risk of concussion/spinal injury/etc), then it's not that crazy a thing for them to have survived, especially not in a show filled with lots of other improbable things.

I assume both of them are very capable swimmers. I mean, Hannibal is good at everything it seems, and we did see him swimming for exercise right before Matthew Brown tried to kill him. And Will grew up with his father working on boats, and I imagine he spent most of his time entertaining himself in the great outdoors, so he probably spent a lot of time swimming in lakes and what not. Also, it would be kind of dumb to spend a lot of time fishing if you're not a good swimmer.

Of course, they were also both bleeding from gunshot/stabbing wounds, so that's a bit of a handicap. Also, this doesn't take into account the depth of the water, and the fact that if they weren't quick on their feet they could end up slamming into the rocks which would be rather painful.
posted by litera scripta manet at 3:50 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


Nah, these are just my pathetic attempts to not think of them as dead. "OK, when the camera follows them over the cliff, it doesn't follow their trajectory exactly. It goes out more from the cliff-edge and turns down. So W&H probably like fell 10 feet and hit a slope-y area and slid -bumped onto a jutting shelf. Because you can see behind Hannibal in the daytime shots there are slope-y areas, and we never see the ground area by Will where the rocks are, so there could be some there too! So when we look straight down into the surf, we just can't see them because they're back below and to the left of the shot. THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT HAPPENED."
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:23 PM on September 4, 2015


Okay, I'm making an addendum to my Hannibal is a cliff diving prodigy conspiracy theory:

Maybe Hannibal figured that Will needed to get that whole "kill Hannibal/kill himself/maybe both" thing out of his system once and for all. Since Hannibal is so confident in his cliff diving abilities, he decided to plant the idea in Will's head, so that then when Will did his whole murder/suicide thing, and then they "miraculously" survived, Will would just be like, "Fuck it, I tried, I guess the universe is telling me to give in and go be a happy murder husband."
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:04 PM on September 4, 2015 [3 favorites]


And this thread is now at 900+ comments.

Also, I guess it's time for us to be digging into Hannibal Rising now that we're one week post finale. If you need any motivation, keep in mind tel3path's very wise words.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:09 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


So I feel like this show is starting to haunt me a little bit. This morning, I saw an engagement announcement in the newspaper for a couple named "Hannah & Graham" and got super excited...and then very sad.
posted by AdagioCantabile at 5:24 PM on September 4, 2015 [5 favorites]


Guys I want to write more cause I was to spend more time in that perfect Hannibal house I found but I can't think of anything for them to do that isn't passionate making out
posted by The Whelk at 5:28 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also, I guess it's time for us to be digging into Hannibal Rising now that we're one week post finale. If you need any motivation, keep in mind tel3path's very wise words.

Hmmm, I'll think about it, but man, that's asking a lot. Also, I'm pretty sure Hannibal carried Will a mile or so and then stole a car or Chiyoh gave them a ride.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:35 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also, I'm pretty sure Hannibal carried Will a mile or so and then stole a car or Chiyoh gave them a ride.

No, no, he walked 37 miles in the snow while whispering sweet nothings in Will's ear.

I'll prove it to you as soon as I finish writing that fanfic. But you know, I also have to do some work so that I don't get fired from my job.

The upside of having a flexible schedule: I can check mefi whenever I want.
The downside of having a flexible schedule: I can check mefi whenever I want.

posted by litera scripta manet at 6:27 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


Although actually, I kind of love imaging Hannibal, Will, and Chiyoh all crammed into the back of a taxi, no one saying a word, with poor drugged up Will giving Chiyoh a dirty look while Chiyoh stares pointedly out the window and Hannibal sits there smiling like a cat who just caught a mouse. Not to mention the taxi driver being like "Who the hell are these crazy people in the back of my cab?"
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:32 PM on September 4, 2015 [5 favorites]


Guys I want to write more cause I was to spend more time in that perfect Hannibal house I found but I can't think of anything for them to do that isn't passionate making out

I am fine with that.
posted by fancyoats at 6:52 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Randomly came up as I was sorting through youtube links and ended with me choking back mad giggles: Hannibal Season 3 Crack Video
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 6:55 PM on September 4, 2015 [5 favorites]


you guys want more relationship drama and possessiveness or like, another apex-level serial killer emerging in New Orleans I have ideas for both
posted by The Whelk at 10:52 PM on September 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yes and yes.
posted by fancyoats at 11:17 PM on September 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


and it turns out that Hannibal Rising is not available on Kindle. i won't get my copy until tomorrow now.

I know i can't hide from this
posted by tel3path at 2:50 AM on September 5, 2015


Oh god, I just remembered one of the teaser tweets or FB posts the show sent before 3x13: Love is in the air.

IN THE AIR. You fuckers.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:26 AM on September 5, 2015 [8 favorites]


you guys want more relationship drama and possessiveness or like, another apex-level serial killer emerging in New Orleans I have ideas for both

Both, of course.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:48 AM on September 5, 2015


Breaking news from Kitteh:

#Fannibals of #Metafilter, it is done. I have met Mads and Gillian.

AND HOLY SHIT MADS IS HELLA HOT IRL

pic will be uploaded tomorrow

posted by FelliniBlank at 9:30 AM on September 5, 2015 [11 favorites]


every time i want to go to a fan con i remember that scene from Blades Of Glory where jimmy's stalker is like I SENT YOU A CUP OF MY BLOOD JIMMY DID YOU GET MY BLOOD and i realize that fan cons are not an environment in which i can be my best blood-cup-free self
posted by poffin boffin at 10:35 AM on September 5, 2015 [6 favorites]


This is why it's so great to have a surrogate fan-con attender! Well, that and my loathing for crowds, noise, awkward smalltalk with famous people, etc.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:42 AM on September 5, 2015


I bet Mads smells great, though. Like citrusy bike-guy soap and Turkish tobacco. And Gillian -- I can't even!
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:43 AM on September 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


there was a Spartacus convention in maryland recently which was attended by maybe a dozen of the actors, none of whom would be considered just a minor character, like these are all people about whose characters/character development i have A LOT TO SAY and lots of it is crying and swearing, and i was like "there is no way i will not be gently led away weeping by security is there" and it was very tragic
posted by poffin boffin at 10:46 AM on September 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


That's the thing here -- I just can't see how the Hannibal Q&A today can be anything but people literally openly weeping and unable to speak the entire time.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:52 AM on September 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


I just remembered one of the teaser tweets or FB posts the show sent before 3x13: Love is in the air.

BRB, making a crackvid of the final showdown with Dolarhyde set to Elton John - Can You Feel The Love Tonight.mp3...
posted by sparkletone at 11:04 AM on September 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Kitteh is taking suggestions for questions to ask Mads. She already considered but ruled out, "Mads, how does it feel to toy with the emotions of total strangers?"
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:09 AM on September 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mads: "I think Hannibal fell in love w/Will from the moment they met. Love at first. He was fascinated w/this young man."
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:43 AM on September 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yes, fanfic writers, you do know these characters better than Bryan Fuller does.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:44 AM on September 5, 2015


Mads: Swallowing Chilton's lip was unscripted. He had to make sure he didn't swallow the prosthetic when doing the take.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:59 AM on September 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


Loves living in Toronto but hates the cold weather here. "Fuck, I thought I was a Viking! But it's really cold here!"
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:01 PM on September 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


I want to smell Mads. No fair.
posted by fancyoats at 12:55 PM on September 5, 2015


Oh I'm so jealous but I'm glad someone is representing mefi and reporting back to us!
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:27 PM on September 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


By the way, if anyone who hasn't read Hannibal Rising before is on the fence about whether or not to read it, I would say go for it (although I may well be the only person in these threads who has never read or watched any other parts of the canon until now). I just finished it, and it wasn't that bad. Actually, I found it to be an interesting read, although I'll save further discussion for a future thread.

Also it only took me two hours to read the whole thing, which is about 8 hours less than it took Hannibal to carry Will in the snow.

Yeah, I know we were supposed to aim for a chapter a day, but I've always been a binge reader.
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:54 PM on September 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


and I haven't even got mine yet. i'm a disgrace to the name of Fannibal
posted by tel3path at 2:51 PM on September 5, 2015


Hi, everyone! I am on the bus back home but I will upload the Mads & Gillian pic I took with them tomorrow. I saw stag-wendigo cosplay, tons of flower crowns and one Alana. It was a good day but at nearly 120K attendees, I reached my crowds tolerance for the rest of the year!

Oh, and casual scruffy Mads is crazy hot.
posted by Kitteh at 5:52 PM on September 5, 2015 [5 favorites]


Not My Supervisor
posted by Dormant Gorilla at 6:16 PM on September 5, 2015


While we're eagerly waiting for Kitteh's Mads and Gillian pic, I have some maybe good news about our upcoming cannibal club:

So, I sent the mods a note to see if books will be added to fanfare in the near future. The bad news is that books aren't going to be an official thing for awhile now BUT we did get a green light to do a bit of a workaround.

The powers that be (specifically cortex and restless nomad) said that if we wanted to make a post in fanfare talk to discuss each of the books in our cannibal club that we could definitely do that. They also said it would be okay for us do a separate post for each of the four books as long as they're spaced out which it seems like they will be based on tel3path's proposed schedule.

What do you guys think? Maybe we could do a trial run with Hannibal Rising, and see how that goes. I was thinking we could give it another week or so, and then go ahead and throw up the post, and people can join as they finish the book or if they've already read it and don't want to slog through it again. We can give everyone plenty of time to read and discuss the book and then post the movie based on tel3path's original schedule.

We could also stick with the plan of trying to work in the book discussion with the movie, but I thought it might be fun to open up the book discussion first and have some time to focus on that before diving into the movie. Also, backstory! I want to talk about it.

I could also go ahead and make a fanfare talk post to discuss this if it looks like we'll need more space to talk about logistics, but I wanted to wait on the talk post so that we don't end up posting a logistics thread and then immediately follow it up with a Hannibal Rising book talk thread.

So, what do you guys think?
posted by litera scripta manet at 6:57 PM on September 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh, and we don't have to actually call it The Cannibal Club (that was just a shorthand reference), although it does have a nice ring to it.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:07 PM on September 5, 2015


The new hit pop single from Cannibal Club: Do You Really Want To Eat Me?
posted by The Whelk at 7:18 PM on September 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


The new hit pop single from Cannibal Club: Do You Really Want To Eat Me?

Lyrics include:

Do you really want to eat me
Do you really want to make me into pie

In the kitchen just don't burn me
Dinner guests never ask you why
in the oven, fire's burning
choose the spices pick a side
hungry people always tells me
there's no place, no place to hide
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:34 PM on September 5, 2015 [4 favorites]




The new hit pop single from Cannibal Club: Do You Really Want To Eat Me?

Heh, I already had Dengue Fever's Cannibal Courtship stuck in my head: “You, you wouldn’t understand / I’m famished for a man / Be my sacrificial lamb.”
posted by ubersturm at 8:58 PM on September 5, 2015


Good morning! So here we go. Mads and Gillian were lovely and polite (it looks like Mads has been spending some time on a beach); Gillian really liked my t-shirt ("Oh! What a cool fox!), which was a bonus. I took anxious and dorky as usual.

I'd like to think FelliniBlank in particular for purchasing my ticket and photo op and everyone else for being awesome here in FanFare thread for talking about this gorgeous show. It was all for you, Metafilter! All for you!
posted by Kitteh at 4:54 AM on September 6, 2015 [32 favorites]


OMG, best. threesome. ever! Thanks so much for being our designated Show Lover on the scene, Kitteh.

Here's Part 1 of the Q&A panel. Part 2.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:11 AM on September 6, 2015 [5 favorites]


I love that Mads has just completely released the Hannibal and now looks like a dude who sells $0.99 T-Shirts on Venice Beach.
posted by Shepherd at 6:01 AM on September 6, 2015 [13 favorites]


I am all in favour of the Cannibal Club let's do this we will be able to do the cookbook when it comes out
posted by tel3path at 6:19 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


New Fuller interview, with some interesting stuff about shifting relationships, "sexual fluidity," and Hannibal's Murder Hideaway looking lived-in. The first Q&A illustrates why I cringe when people say they're OK with 3x13 as a series finale:
Q: You've spoken a lot about taking your lead from the fans – if they're happy with this as an ending, you are too, and if not then you'll keep pushing for more. How do you feel having seen the reaction to the finale?

A: It's interesting, because a lot of people were very content. The feedback has been that they're satisfied, and if it came back around in another form they would watch, but they feel like the story had an ending for them. As always, I'll wait and see how the fates decide if Martha's able to raise money for a film – I'm waiting for instructions from above.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:36 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


I literally just woke up from a very vivid dream that was like a Hannibal-Hitchcock mashup where a coworker (a very nice, plump Midwestern lady) pursued me through shadowy streets and marble plazas and columned archways of Venice trying to kill me. The dream looked like the inside of Brian Fuller's head and he didn't even take us to Venice and yet I can still see how his Venice would look. This show has colonized a corner of my brain. I can't even say this is my first ever Hannibal dream - I've been having them since season one.

Kitteh, hurrah! What a wonderful pic. And it's hilarious how anti-Hannibal Mads looks in real life. At least he wasn't in a velour track suit.
posted by PussKillian at 6:49 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


You know, I didn't think about how lived in and not dusty and locked up and unlived-in his murder hideaway was. Now that I know, I want to know why.
posted by Kitteh at 6:57 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


Shepherd said, "You don't think he wouldn't have a cleaning service for his properties? A cleaning service wouldn't know that a convicted murderer hired them; as long the money keeps coming, the house would stay clean."

stop making sense husband
posted by Kitteh at 7:03 AM on September 6, 2015 [4 favorites]


Someone remind me that since apparently I write fanfic now, I should write the one where the poor house cleaner walks in on Hannigram anger-snogging as they recover from their cliff dive.

Or maybe the piano tuner. You just know there's also a piano tuner to keep the sea air from fucking up the strings. Just in case Hannibal wants to make an impromptu visit to his murder internship house to play some tunes.
posted by Stacey at 7:17 AM on September 6, 2015 [4 favorites]


No, wait, he probably teaches the Murder Interns to tune and play the piano. Brainwashing in the morning, music lessons after lunch. Lecter's Finishing School for Select Young Murder Interns.
posted by Stacey at 7:41 AM on September 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


No, wait, he probably teaches the Murder Interns to tune and play the piano. Brainwashing in the morning, music lessons after lunch. Lecter's Finishing School for Select Young Murder Interns.

Yes! Lessons on etiquette and elocution every Tuesday and Thursday. Rudeness must not be tolerated.
posted by AdagioCantabile at 7:52 AM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


I love that Mads has just completely released the Hannibal and now looks like a dude who sells $0.99 T-Shirts on Venice Beach.

mads' non Hannibal look has always been like "extremely attractive version of your friend's dad who sells weed out of his kitchen"
posted by The Whelk at 8:05 AM on September 6, 2015 [6 favorites]


Or if you're my age, "sexy stoner you knew in high school."
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:09 AM on September 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


Dust comes from human skin and if nobody stayed there it would get neither dusty nor dirty.

But yes he probably has property managers for all his places.
posted by tel3path at 9:15 AM on September 6, 2015


I can't believe he could have gone there every day to tend Miriam Lass, so he either had her autonomous enough to be able to get pre-prepared meals out of the freezer and microwave them or he had staff.

My money's on mostly the former. It would explain why he seems to overbuy and overprepare - he had at least two dependants that we know of besides Gideon, and Gideon was short term. I could believe his only long term dependants were Abigail and Miriam. That explains why we saw him preparing four portions of leg osso buco and only eating one - he probably froze the other three portions and took them over to the cliff house when he did his rounds. or, simply, Abigail had a key to the Chandler Square house and did those sorts of errands herself, which is how she came to be in the basement when Beverly found her.
posted by tel3path at 9:21 AM on September 6, 2015


so part of the meaning of the Reichenbach Falls ending was to cue us Fannibals to scream for more stories. if we don't lift our collective finger, he won't. I suggest all us mefi fannibals @BryanFuller individually to make our position clear.

Actually that would be a good name for our club, MeFiFoFannibals.
posted by tel3path at 9:24 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


so part of the meaning of the Reichenbach Falls ending was to cue us Fannibals to scream for more stories. if we don't lift our collective finger, he won't. I suggest all us mefi fannibals @BryanFuller individually to make our position clear.

I just sent him a detailed email at his production co. contact address (hello@livingdeadguy.com) to express my dissent from the "content to let it die" viewpoint. Not that he'll ever see it, but I assume if they get enough of them, he'll get a summary from the staff. And some things can't be covered in 140 characters. I HATE fucking Twitter, but I participated in the live tweeting last night (planned for next Sat too, 9-11, usual Hannibal live tweet time) just as an effort to make the fanbase devotion visible.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:32 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, so according to that interview Chiyoh was living there?

So if she gave Will specific instructions for how to win against Hannibal, by kissing him and shoving him off a train, and then Will did that, and Chiyoh had had all this time to prepare for that moment, she must've installed all trampolines in the nooks and crannies of the cliff and they will have bounced back up

And she said "violence is what you understand" and by extension "I'll take care of the rest". Hence, trampolines.
posted by tel3path at 9:34 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


So I just unboxed and opened my newly delivered copy of Hannibal Rising and the Prologue instantly solidifies the rationale for the beginning of season 3.

I do not think BF could possibly have gone into s3 expecting to get a fourth season. i doubt he ever really thought he'd get seven or even six seasons as originally claimed, i think his real target (as opposed to his reach target) was three.

I mean he was so clearly going for broke from the very beginning of this season, and he's made sure to cover all of the actual books at one go. He probably thought of himself as Thelma and Louise going over a cliff.
posted by tel3path at 9:42 AM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


Litera scripta manet, thank you for figuring out a way for us to keep the book discussion going. Any time you would care to do the honours in opening the thread, I am eager.

Also, I wonder if a video of the Silence! Musical exists anywhere?
posted by tel3path at 9:47 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


I do not think BF could possibly have gone into s3 expecting to get a fourth season.

Well no expectation, since he was warned before S3 went into production that once they went below X rating, it was all over (on NBC). But he certainly had planned narrative arcs for seasons beyond this one. Actually, if he wasn't busy with American Gods in the next several months, I bet the Amazon deal for Hannibal Season 4 would have gone through since his inability to dive into S4 right away was apparently the big sticking point. But they might be willing to reconsider later if there's still interest.

S4 or a movie or whatever is unlikely ever to see the light of day. I just can't stand for him to think we/I am like "Oh sure, nice ending, don't need any more Hannibal, bye now." He should at least know people CARE.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:51 AM on September 6, 2015


I just can't stand for him to think we/I am like "Oh sure, nice ending, don't need any more Hannibal, bye now." He should at least know people CARE.

Yeah, I'm all for making our fannibal voices heard. I don't have twitter, and I'm not sure I can bring myself to join, but I'll send an email in which I attempt to come off as eager and engaged without sounding mentally unstable or like a creepy stalker.

I almost wish we could send him a link to this post (and the rest of them), because I think this nearly 1000 comment behemoth of a thread shows our devotion to the show, but, um, maybe some things are better left to the imagination.

Does anyone have a mailing address for Bryan Fuller et al? Not like a personal address, but for the production company, somewhere where we could send hand written letters (that may or may not be stained with our tears), in addition to our pleading emails. We could even learn to disguise our hand writing and send bunches of letters supposedly from different people...or not. I know everything is done online now, but I feel like if they get a bunch of letters it might have a different sort of impact.

I don't know. I'm desperate. I'll do anything. But I guess I'll start with FelliniBlank's email idea.
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:42 AM on September 6, 2015


Bryan Fuller
Living Dead Guy
100 Universal City Plaza
Hitchcock Bungalow 5195
Universal City, CA 91608
USA
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:55 AM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


The website doesn't have any new content since 2013, but one assumes the address and email still work.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:56 AM on September 6, 2015


For a minute I thought that address was a joke until I googled it because it seemed too perfect. Thanks for passing it along!
posted by litera scripta manet at 10:58 AM on September 6, 2015


Okay, so I just did a bit more reading about how this whole club thing works and I realized that once we set up the club, we can post our own club talk discussions that are separate from the rest of fanfare talk and will only show up on the club page. (Maybe this was totally obvious to everyone else, but I haven't spent much time on fanfare aside from participating in Mad Men and Hannibal threads.)

I'm going to go ahead and set up The Cannibal Club, and post an announcement to Fanfare Talk, which might be superfluous, but just in case there are people who want to join in but aren't following this thread. Then once the club is up and running, I'll post the Hannibal Rising book discussion thread as a Cannibal Club talk post, and then we can start discussing ALL THE THINGS.
posted by litera scripta manet at 11:05 AM on September 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oh, and technically it's Living Dead Guy Productions, sorry.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:23 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


You may hate Twitter, but I believe you might enjoy these charmingly captioned screengrabs.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:53 AM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


Those are great. I guess it's not so much that I hate Twitter as I'm not really sure how to interact with it. Do a lot of mefites use it? Sometimes I'm tempted to join so that I could follow people even if I never post my own "tweets" but it seems kind of overwhelming.

I sort of feel this way about tumblr too. As a devoted fangirl I can feel these social media outlets drawing me in since both Sherlock and Hannibal seem to have a very active tumblr presence, but I don't really know how to engage with them.

I wish we could all go back to livejournal.
posted by litera scripta manet at 12:27 PM on September 6, 2015


Yeah, that's the only reason I (grudgingly) have a Twitter account, for the moment -- just because it's easier to find and follow this or that. I'm not really a social-media person at all; my brain and philosophy of life are much more in tune with forum- or blog/site-based communities like MeFi.

As in, you go to a particular place or group when you want to talk about a particular topic/interest with others who share it. My friends, family, and colleagues have exactly zero interest in arts, music, TV, etc. discussions, so why the hell would I want to bore them with it?
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:38 PM on September 6, 2015


It's weird -- even though (nearly) everything we post on any site is visible to the public, Twitter always feels way way more like just yammering to the whole indiscriminate world than MeFi does. Don't know why.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:40 PM on September 6, 2015


I just sent him a detailed email at his production co. contact address (hello@livingdeadguy.com) to express my dissent from the "content to let it die" viewpoint.

Does that seem to be the consensus non-Twitter/Tumblr way to speak up? Most canceled shows I've watched were canceled in a more definitive way, so the temptation to actually contact anyone about this sort of thing is new. I'm definitely not a Twitter or Tumblr person, and as one of the dreaded TV-less people I know illicit streaming + Hulu viewing for the re-watch + buying DVDs still doesn't actually count for (network TV) ratings, so I'm something of an invisible fan, as per that Grantland interview. But it would still be nice to be able to put in a few words of support somehow.

I hope Fuller's not confusing "this could be a beautiful ending if it had to be" (which is absolutely true) with "this should be the ending." He was able to engineer things so that this would be more satisfying an end than, say, Deadwood's, and I think many of the reviews and reactions reflect that (further tempered by the fact that people have been resigning themselves to this being The End for two months at this point). But his instincts have been good so far. Mizumono could have been a beautiful (albeit even more tragic) series ending too, but I don't regret getting a chance to see what came after. If Fuller (and the writers and the lead actors!) all think there's a worthwhile story to tell after this, I'm inclined to believe them.
posted by ubersturm at 12:48 PM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


So I've set up our club page and posted an announcement in fanfare talk. I'll post the Hannibal Rising club talk post soon. (Or someone else is welcome to post it.)

BTW, I hope I'm not stepping on anyone's toes in my excitement to get the ball rolling since this was tel3path's idea first, and I'm something of a latecomer to the fannibal clan.
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:02 PM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


If Fuller (and the writers and the lead actors!) all think there's a worthwhile story to tell after this, I'm inclined to believe them.

Yeah, that was kind of the gist of my email -- a couple of reasons why I think the narrative needs to continue that I haven't seen addressed in the prominent reviews/reactions. Mostly that when the show shifted its gears toward the end of S2, it morphed into a piece of tragedy that has been left dramatically and emotionally unresolved, and that I think the show has an opportunity and responsibility to continue (if possible) its thoughtful exploration of "violence and/as intimacy in men's relationships" as a counterpoint to all the glorification of uninterrogated cheap-ass "guys, violence, fuck yeah" tropes in most media.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:11 PM on September 6, 2015 [2 favorites]


Wow, that Fuller quote about fans being satisfied with the show ending is flying around Twitter now, and people are definitely re-mobilizing to say #FannibalsArentDone some more.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:46 PM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


As the Q&A I went to yesterday mentions, Mads said that the S3 in all its glory was going to happen anyway, and it wasn't until they starting shooting S3 a bit in that NBC canceled the show. He said they were surprised because as he saw it, "we figured we had a home run." So the end of S3 functions as THE END for that news, but we would have seen how they survived had there been an S4.
posted by Kitteh at 2:51 PM on September 6, 2015 [3 favorites]


mads' non Hannibal look has always been like "extremely attractive version of your friend's dad who sells weed out of his kitchen"

HOT CANNIBAL DADS DOT COM
posted by poffin boffin at 5:15 PM on September 6, 2015 [1 favorite]


You guys, I just finished the first chapter of Hannibal Rising and, good or bad, it has a lot of idea density packed into it.

I urge you to join us over at the Cannibal Club. We have people cookies.
posted by tel3path at 3:48 AM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


We have people cookies.

Also we have some very interesting background research that tel3path has posted. So, grab a people cookie, and maybe some people beer (or other cannibal drink of choice), and come join us!

On that note, I remember earlier in this season Alana made a comment about not drinking beer since she found out what (or who, as Hannibal amends) he was putting in it. Ever since watching that scene, I've always wondered what part of a person would actually be used in the brewing of beer.

Is there a #cannibalcookingquestions on twitter? Seems like there should be.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:05 AM on September 7, 2015


Couple more random observations since the thread isn't at 1,000 comments yet (c'mon, we can do it!):

I think Bedelia's "Do you ache for Hannibal?" is answered pretty definitively early in 3x13 when, after chatting with Reba about their bad boyfriends, instead of going, y'know, home, Will sprints over to Hannibal's cell for this conversation --
Will: Ding Dong, Dragon's dead. Which Jack or Alana could have told you. And, THANK GOD, that means I'm not stuck spendin' time with you no more, you fucking jerk. Nope nope nope nope, goin' straight home to my wife, a woman whom I love and have sex with . . .

Hannibal: . . . while fantasizing about me. Tell me, Will, if you are so anxious to see this Molly, why are you here yet again, steaming up my glass for no discernible law-enforcement-related reason?

Will: I felt that being with my injured and traumatized wife, child, and dogs, who miss me and desperately need my care, could wait until I carried out the vitally important professional task of taunting you one more time about how much I continue not to be madly in love with you and generally remind you of my 100% lifelong heterosexuality.
Also, the "Hey, person who wants to kill me, the one you REALLY want to kill is Hannibal" gambit Will uses with Francis to keep from getting his spine snapped . . . is identical to how he handled Mason in Season 2, complete with Will intervening to save Hannibal at the last moment. And yet he thinks it's going to go differently this time? Interesting.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:35 PM on September 7, 2015 [5 favorites]


And this stuff is apparently what I think about while shopping for produce now.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:38 PM on September 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


Unsurprisingly, someone on Tumblr posted a cut of the final bit with the music removed.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:27 PM on September 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm not going to Red Dragon Con, but I know someone who is.
posted by tel3path at 2:21 PM on September 7, 2015


Also, been reading some stuff about Will being Full Dark and hiding it all this time.

NOPE. By definition, Will's conflict is that he is not Full Dark, never can be, and never will be. The one who's Full Dark and hiding it is Bedelia - and because of her constant exercise of self-control, like living your entire life on a very strict diet like Cyd Charisse, the fairness of labelling her "full dark" is extremely questionable.

Sure, Bedelia gave in to the impulse to kill *once*, and was clearly orgasmic about it, but that still doesn't seem to translate into her wanting to kill *in general*. That's got to be why she travelled with Hannibal, to find out how much she truly likes killing. Turned out: not much. I still think she's psychopathic, but that doesn't automatically mean she'll enjoy killing, any more than it means she'll automatically enjoy table football or hold-up stockings. What Hannibal - and the killing of Neil Frank - offered her was an opportunity to FEEL. But by episode 7 she was pretty overtly fed up with Hannibal, was irritated by his killing people at the dinner table, pissed off with his suits, just wanted to be rid of this Franklyn-a-like.

Since Bedelia understands Hannibal, but doesn't really think too highly of him, doesn't necessarily share his favourite hobbies, and most of all *is fundamentally cerebral and detached towards him*, she's not a satisfying partner for Hannibal. It's like saying "my wife does understand me but she charges $300 an hour to listen to my problems".

Bedelia says "we assign a moment to a decision" and Will says "decisions are made of kneaded feelings". What Will does for and with Hannibal is enjoy killing (Bedelia is right that he does only enjoy it under specific circumstances) AND have strong, intense feelings about and for HANNIBAL HIMSELF AS A PERSON. Hannibal is fed up with a life of cerebral self-control. He just wants love, romance and intimacy like everyone else does. It's Bedelia who's too detached to participate in that aspect of human experience.

As for Dolarhyde... I keep erasing and retyping because I don't want to put myself across the wrong way, as if I'm saying of a victim "he liked it" - we know that there is no version of this story where Dolarhyde is taken alive. At least this story let Dolarhyde die doing something he loved. And that, I think, is the essential ingredient which makes it possible for Will to enjoy killing *only* certain people in certain circumstances. He's vibing off Dolarhyde's excitement *and* Hannibal's. At the same time, Dolarhyde is sort of the serial killer equivalent of Chilton here, he has no real grasp of what he's dealing with and is a total fall guy. I am not sure whether taking advantage of Dolarhyde's insanity is worse than taking advantage of Chilton's narcissism, given that Dolarhyde in every multiverse will always attack and never be taken alive.
posted by tel3path at 2:49 PM on September 7, 2015 [9 favorites]


Anyway Whelk, what about the next chapter of S4 murder husbands? Agog here.
posted by tel3path at 2:53 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Well, and I hate to say it, but Bedelia is sort of Hannibal's Molly.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:55 PM on September 7, 2015 [4 favorites]


Rebound wife.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:56 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


At least this story let Dolarhyde die doing something he loved. And that, I think, is the essential ingredient which makes it possible for Will to enjoy killing *only* certain people in certain circumstances. He's vibing off Dolarhyde's excitement *and* Hannibal's. At the same time, Dolarhyde is sort of the serial killer equivalent of Chilton here, he has no real grasp of what he's dealing with and is a total fall guy. I am not sure whether taking advantage of Dolarhyde's insanity is worse than taking advantage of Chilton's narcissism, given that Dolarhyde in every multiverse will always attack and never be taken alive.

The whole comment is edifying, this part especially so. A couple of episodes back, I said that I thought/hoped that there would be an element of Will mercifully crushing the wounded bird (book: broken snake) in killing Francis. Turns out Will himself was mostly the wounded bird he thought he needed to crush, but also Hannibal (since I think he has been and would be miserable without Will) and also a little bit Francis too. It's probably the least inhumane way stop him, all things considered.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:06 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Sort of, but I'm not as keen to agree that Will was using Molly as a beard as so much of the fandom was. I think he meant what he said when he told Hannibal "I like my life with them". But I think he also knew that his very presence was a danger to them as long as Hannibal was alive. It's kind of like saying "reality doesn't go away just because you stop believing in it".

His life with Molly was happy and it was real, but it's ultimately not what he was put on this earth to do and the second half of the series was him facing up to that. Not that he didn't deeply love Hannibal, because he did, and not that Hannibal wasn't the love of his life, because he was. But as Angel said, "in order to kill this cannibal, you have to love him" or words to that effect.

It's like Jesus who truly enjoyed His life on this earth, but He also had to leave it because giving up His life was ultimately what He was put on this earth to do.

I just... there's a lot of trivializing of his marriage to Molly out there, and I think it's untrue.
posted by tel3path at 3:08 PM on September 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


I don't think she was a beard (nor was Bedelia for that matter). I think most rebound lovers are genuinely loved -- and people not on the rebound get involved in relationships for an array of reasons. There aren't necessarily good ones or bad ones. But I guess in both cases here, I see that element of needing solace, feeling empty because of a loss and needing to fill it. Will obviously took some time to get his shit together before getting into a post-Hannibal relationship, as opposed to Hannibal grabbing a date en route to Italy right after the Mizumono breakup.

The thing I see in common between Bedelia and Molly is that element of "limited compatibility," I guess? Most of the people we love in our lives are only moderately compatible with us, and folks build whole successful LTRs with that. It's probably a lot healthier (even in non-toxic, non-cannibal situations) than the kind of soulmate-y, twin halves of a sundered Platonic whatever, passion and chemistry and opera type love.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:18 PM on September 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


And that is why the alt!nice!Hanniverse works so well, because nice!Hannibal could enjoy taking down a bad guy with Will just as much as canon!Hannibal does, but without ever having to *be* the bad guy himself.

Then they could go home to a nice bath, a light supper, a foot massage and some rampant sex, all while leading a fulfilling, prosocial and legally acceptable married life. With dogs! Oh, the humorous trouble Hannibal would have with those dogs. Abigail is going to McGill to study morbid anatomy and she's doing a nice little side business as an earring designer that's quite charmed the Baltimore élite, with preorders for weeks.
posted by tel3path at 3:47 PM on September 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


I know! I'm partway through that Nice!Universe fic you recommended, and I'm like "Hannibal would be such great goddamn boyfriend material if he just weren't a serial killer!"

Oh, here's another great post-finale: After the World Falls Down
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:12 PM on September 7, 2015 [4 favorites]


I have to thank y'all for the fic recs in this thread. Most of the fanfic I've read before has been . . . eh, ok, but Jesus, some of these Hannibal writers can, regardless of subject matter, really really write, like better than most best-selling authors (which, yeah, is fairly faint praise if we're including Dan Brown). I guess this should not be surprising considering the caliber of the show and the audience it appeals to.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:28 PM on September 7, 2015


Full disclosure, that one FelliniBlank just linked is me. And it is literally the first piece of fiction fan or otherwise I've written since the last millennium, so I think it might be awful? But I'm having fun so there's that.
posted by Stacey at 5:37 PM on September 7, 2015 [4 favorites]


oh good i just finished it and i was 12000 more chapters and now i can be demanding in two places instead of one

also i have read everyone's fic recs and all other things written by recommended authors and i need more
posted by poffin boffin at 5:39 PM on September 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


I think it's gonna be six chapters and an epilogue but I'm not 100% sure yet DAMN IT BRYAN FULLER.
posted by Stacey at 5:42 PM on September 7, 2015


I read the first few paragraphs and I want to read more later!

(I'm not in love with my ideas so far so I'm dragging my feet, ficwise.)
posted by The Whelk at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2015


Yeah, Stacey? That's fucking brilliant writing, and I love it, and what poffin boffin said.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2015


the best thing to do when undecided about what you want to write is to write the most ridiculous crackfic possible

this is how i end up getting emperor's new groove/the 100 fic out of my friends
posted by poffin boffin at 5:47 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Maybe they open a resteraunt
posted by The Whelk at 5:47 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Those two first paragraphs? A - MAZ- ING.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:48 PM on September 7, 2015


It was supposed to be a one shot but then six more chapters happened and I have a thing about Margot and Alana in my head that I can't write until I figure out the timeline of the first half of the season and Tl;dr: I think I may have Become over the weekend.
posted by Stacey at 5:49 PM on September 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


I hope this doesn't turn into The Secret History and we all get into art and creation and then end up killing and eating someone
posted by The Whelk at 5:59 PM on September 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


One great thing about the best immediate post-finale fics like this one is that they have that, I dunno, pensive? contemplative? taking-stock-and-sorting-things-out? mood that's just so truthful to how the initial vibe would have to be after an experience like that.

But not the post-Mizumono traumatized elegiac sorrow that permeated S3 at all. This is more of a quiet "leaving one life behind, moving on to another, not sure what it is yet, but content to have decided something" reflective mood.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:03 PM on September 7, 2015


It becomes super extremely porn but I read one called Wolf and I that I thought was quite good

Also ok fine u fuckers I am writing one for real
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:37 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Um honestly a Secret History/Hannibal crossover would work really, really well.
posted by PussKillian at 7:00 PM on September 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


Considering that Hannigram are supposed to survive 3x13, does anybody else have moments of wishing Will had just gone off to Europe with Hannibal in Mizumono and saved everyone a lot of heartache? I feel so guilty even thinking that because it's like wanting to negate all his efforts to fight the good fight and have a good life, but sweet Jesus, the wreckage these lovebirds have left in their wake before arriving at the bluff.

Well, except Abigail is probably better off dead than Murder Daughter Redux, and she was so fucked up by Dad+Hams that she'd likely end up killing Will in his sleep just for chuckles.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:11 PM on September 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


But he's in a much much better position powerwise in the relationship now, and just generally more seasoned and mature, so maybe not.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:14 PM on September 7, 2015


There's no way in hell I'm ever going to be able to read a meaningful fraction of this thread, but I wanted to say that despite not being super into the second half of this season, I really enjoyed the finale. Please, please, please let them get Silence of the Lambs at some point. Thanks.
posted by codacorolla at 7:16 PM on September 7, 2015


But as Angel said, "in order to kill this cannibal, you have to love him" or words to that effect.

Only because you said so: Buffy x Hannibal
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:18 PM on September 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


Um honestly a Secret History/Hannibal crossover would work really, really well

One of them starts teaching Classics and it all goes downhill from there
posted by The Whelk at 7:40 PM on September 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


Only because you said so: Buffy x Hannibal

I saw some of those earlier -- hilarious.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:40 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ugh, I'm trying to keep myself from reading too much Hannibal fanfic right now because for whatever reason I can't seem to read and write fanfic at the same time. It just messes with my creative flow or something. (It's why I've spent years in the Sherlock fandom but I stopped reading fanfic after the first couple months in the fandom.) Also, between this thread and Hannibal Rising and also needing to work for a living, well, I guess it's a good thing I don't need to socialize (or sleep) that much.

At the very least, I want to get this stupid Digestivo missing scene posted. How the hell am I getting close to 5000 words of Hannibal carrying Will in the snow?

Of course, I'm also terrible at focusing on one story, so I've also started working on my post season 3 story. Seriously, I'm the worst at this. I think I have like 5 current Sherlock WIPs posted on AO3, and I have like 5-8 partially written, plotted out Sherlock stories that aren't posted, and now I'm adding a new fandom...

BUT AT LEAST IT'S THE BEST FANDOM EVER

Also, I think we can all agree that the world needs more Hannigram. I'm just trying to do my part.

But keep the recs coming! I'm bookmarking all of them for later.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:21 PM on September 7, 2015


Ooooo, I was unaware of The Secret History up to now, but its synopsis gave me that creepy twisted "a person who likes Hannibal might like this book too" frisson of sick joy; when I put it in my shopping cart, Amazon helpfully informed me that a new Fratellis album just came out . . . and while I'm feeling a bit disloyal to My Beautiful MurderLovers That They Are Trying to Kill, it's so nice to have new art to enjoy as well.

One of the 500 horrible parts of the H ending-for-now is that this time of year is like the trough of compelling TV in general, so outside of the Mr. Robot finale I have no rebound show to seek out for comfort. Just boundless bereavement.
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:56 PM on September 7, 2015


Couple more random observations since the thread isn't at 1,000 comments yet (c'mon, we can do it!)

Is this an excuse to get around to commenting on something litera scripta manet said ages ago? Yes, yes it is.

Looking at the season as a whole, I have to say, even though the first half of season 3 was very different than the first two seasons, I still really enjoyed it, in all it's artsy, wandering glory. [...] I think the second half of the season dragged a bit for me. It might just be because I'm not familiar with the rest of the Hannibal canon beyond this TV show.

Yeah, my broad feelings re: the two halves of the season are similar. I mean, in part, I am a sucker for artsy beautiful horrifying things and dream logic and fairy tales and broken people so the first half of the season was like they made a show just for me. I found the procedural aspects of season 1 to be a little meh (it's clearly an external structure imposed more by TV formatting than the demands of the story, which would have probably otherwise have had a few killers explored in greater depth.) I was not particularly looking forward to returning to the solve-the-case aspects of the Red Dragon bit of the season. But I got the feeling that the show was less interested in them as well, or at least found them a bit of a burden when there already wasn't that enough time for the main character-focused story they wanted to tell.

This left the show in an awkward space where it wanted to focus on people and emotions but had to squish some plot mechanics in there somehow and ensure that it reached certain scenes (not to mention introduce several new characters on top of it all). As a result, the story sometimes suffered in plot coherence, taking a bit more suspension of disbelief for me than the usual Art Murder logistics. Lacking any prior knowledge of the books or films, perhaps this was a bit more distracting for me than it was for people who could fill in some of the pieces the show ran out of time for using their familiarity with the canon, and who could look forward to the show hitting various notes from the movies/books?

(This is probably in part why I'm more interested in Fuller's Season 4 plans than an even more hypothetical Season 5 Silence Of The Lambs run; from what I've picked up on the latter, it seems like it'd be a little hard to fit into the show as it stands without sidelining Will in some major way. Given how hard it was for even Armitage's impressive performance to find breathing room at first against the established cast, losing or scaling back the central Will-Hannibal dynamic (no matter how good the reason) while trying to introduce a new foil for Hannibal seems like it would be a difficult transition to make. I'd also be worried that being tied more closely to an existing plot might affect the show in some of the ways the Red Dragon portion did, with the desire to hit certain scenes and plot points and introduce certain favorite book/movie characters imposing similar limitations on any SotL season. When it comes down to it, I suspect that if I do get around to reading/seeing the rest of the canon, I'll find that I prefer Fuller's design to Harris's.)
posted by ubersturm at 9:08 PM on September 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


PussKillian: "Um honestly a Secret History/Hannibal crossover would work really, really well."

I'm sorry, did you say a Secretary/Hannibal crossover? Because I'm fine with recasting Maggie Gyllenhaal as Alana or whatever makes this whole thing work.
posted by komara at 9:18 PM on September 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


I'm sorry, did you say a Secretary/Hannibal crossover?

Oh my god. OH MY GOD. Someone needs to do this RIGHT AWAY. Will is so Mr. Grey -- he wants to Become; he flirts with Becoming; he just struggles so much before he can let himself.

And about SOTL, much as I'd like to see Lee Pace as Jame Gumb, I have never given a solitary shit if they cover that book on the show. It's like an afterthought, and the idea of Hannibal just . . . transferring his affection from Will to someone else after things go wrong is implausible and kind of upsetting.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:34 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


If I was The President Of Television I'd construct some kind of best of all world situation where We have Will and Hannibal out and about, being murder husbands while there's this FBI trainee with an interest in the case, you know Janice Sparrow, and the Will Graham/Hannibal Lecter case is like her personal bugaboo all through her training - we could do serious inter-cutting, a Will/Hannibal Episode then a Janice/Clarice episode, like she's naming theories in class to what they could've done and then we see them doing it, but of course no one takes her seriously - they keep believing the Official Reports but she knows (and we knows) that the official story is bullshit and it keeps gnawing at her, until she's called onto this case by Jack, another killer and missing girls, and damn if it doesn't seem ..Hannibal-y. And since no one cares what she thinks or seems interested in the case she takes a huge gamble and finds a way to contact Hannibal Lecter.

And she gets Will Graham instead.

And he arranges it, and the classic SOTL Clarice/Hannibal meeting isn't in a prison, but over a dinner table.

Hannibal consults, off the record, but Clarice/Janice's skill and sheer moral fortitude get to Will. Maybe there is good in the world? Maybe justice isn't hollow? Maybe they could, after they bring in Buffalo Bill and behind the scenes work it out, maybe they could .... get Hannibal Lecter for good?

Like I imagine many conversations with Clarice where she basically deprograms Will from Hannibal's culty influence, but it's a have our cake and eat it too situations.
posted by The Whelk at 10:26 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Cause I think, story logic wide, Hannibal has already had his arcs, he's got everything he wanted, he has no more being redeemed by Clarice's essential goodness and morality - But Will does. And I think framing Clarice's completely clear sense of right and wrong as the path Will takes out of his horribly romantic, totally possessive, wonderfully dark bad for him and murderous relationship with Hannibal is a good one.
posted by The Whelk at 10:40 PM on September 7, 2015 [3 favorites]


(Not that they would be a romantic couple, just that the Claricealike shows him redemption and goodness is actually possible while Hannibal is all LETS JUST BE AWFUL LORDS OF REALITY TOGETHER.)
posted by The Whelk at 10:43 PM on September 7, 2015 [2 favorites]


I am rewatching Hannibal, and I would very much suggest a proper rewatch on Fanfare be started in a month or so - maybe spaced out at an episode a week? - when the grieving, denial, bargaining etc has set in. It is currently like rubbing salt in an open wound, but also like walking through a haunted house when you know that a the end the trapdoor will lead you to the bottom of the Atlantic ocean.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 11:03 PM on September 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Someone upthread mentioned emungere? Well I just finished reading her story called Blackbird, and very much enjoyed it. Highly recommended.
posted by fancyoats at 12:12 AM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


If anyone feels like recommending absolutely filthy Hannigram fanfic I for one would not be outraged.
posted by h00py at 3:30 AM on September 8, 2015


If anyone feels like recommending absolutely filthy Hannigram fanfic I for one would not be outraged.

This one's pretty filthy and murdery in a lighthearted way; it incorporates a . . . [grasping for neutral word] fanciful element that you may or may not appreciate but not too intrusively (see tags).
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:36 AM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


So very odd, thanks for that. Hard to faff to though, unfortunately.
posted by h00py at 7:42 AM on September 8, 2015


I am rewatching Hannibal, and I would very much suggest a proper rewatch on Fanfare be started in a month or so - maybe spaced out at an episode a week? - when the grieving, denial, bargaining etc has set in

The plan for Cannibal Club is to make it through Hannibal Rising the book and then Hannibal Rising the movie, and then we'll be going from there to a re-watch (or a re-rewatch) of season 1 and season 2. Based on our current timeline, I would say we'll probably start the re-watch of season 1 on 11/14. An episode a week seems like a good pace.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:22 AM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


If anyone feels like recommending absolutely filthy Hannigram fanfic I for one would not be outraged.

I don't have an recs for this, but if you're up for doing a bit of digging you can always set the filters on AO3 so that you only get Will/Hannibal fic. You can also set the rating to explicit, and I would recommend sorting by kudos as opposed to most recent. Oh, and of course, if you have any particular kinks (or if you want to exclude certain things like say, alpha/omega fic) you can do that as well.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:25 AM on September 8, 2015


I just read this very apt post on bonearenaofmyskull:
I know I’ve said this before, but I just can’t help repeating (because it’s just so amusing)….

Of COURSE Mads is the captain of the Hannigram ship. He is Hannibal Lecter, who is THE ADMIRAL OF THE ARMADA. Nobody ships Hannigram more than Hannibal Lecter.

For the last three years, he has literally been, as an actor, going into every scene like, “What’s your motivation for this scene?”

“I want to see if I can get Will Graham to kill. Because I love him.”

“I want to have a dinner party for Will Graham. Because I love him.”

“I want to get Will to be completely dependent on me through this illness, and accept himself as a killer, so we can be killers together. Because I love him.”

“I want Will to know what I am. Because I love him.”

“I want to believe Will is honest with me. Because I love him.”

“I want to be a murder family with Will and Abigail. Because I love them.”

“I want to kill Will for betraying me…but kinda not…but both because I love him.”

“I don’t care if I get caught and am going to make myself a target. Because I love Will and I want him to find me.”

“I’m going to eat Will. Because I love him.”

“I’m going to prison because I can’t bear to be separated from Will. Because I love him.”

“I’m going to turn every conversation I have into one about Will. Because I love him.”

Mads Mikkelsen has been doing this day in and day out for three years. No wonder he was all excited to Bryan about the almost-kiss. This is what I was talking about when I mentioned a feedback loop of momentum for Hannigram, especially with Hugh Dancy’s own set of motivations for Will amounting to the last year and a half of him going, “I should do the right thing with Hannibal, but I don’t want to. Because I love him” and before that being so upset with Hannibal’s betrayal because the seeds of love were there, and not wanting to believe Hannibal was the one tormenting him because he was so emotionally dependent on him. It was building, and once the story started pushing Will toward acceptance of that love, Bryan Fuller had created a monster that was pretty well out of his control, at least as far as those actors were concerned. This is why I don’t find it surprising at all that Bryan said that he wasn’t exactly intending to go there, but “was absorbing so much of Mads and Hugh’s performance” (x). Their job was not just to communicate the characters’ feelings to the camera, but in the collaborative participation they were allowed on Hannibal, to drive the characters toward their desires.
posted by fancyoats at 9:29 AM on September 8, 2015 [8 favorites]


You guys what does it mean if my AO3 statistics dashboard says my thing has been bookmarked X times, but the public page for the thing says X-10 times? Does it mean my Hannigram thingy is 10 people's secret privately bookmarked shame fic? Because that is AWESOME. I've never been so proud of myself.
posted by Stacey at 9:45 AM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


Of COURSE Mads is the captain of the Hannigram ship. He is Hannibal Lecter, who is THE ADMIRAL OF THE ARMADA. Nobody ships Hannigram more than Hannibal Lecter.

Yeah, it has delighted me to NO END to learn this summer that the showrunner is literally the last person to realize that these guys are really not "exploring platonic straight male friendship" and see him freely and happily admit that it's out of his hands.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:40 AM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]


I've never been so proud of myself.

You should. The bit where Will becomes momentarily . . . transfixed is worth about 6 kudos just by itself.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:49 AM on September 8, 2015




I actually think, when you put it that way,
Whelk, that Clarice and Will could be a good romantic couple. I mean if we're gonna break up Hannigram - which let's face it we really have to do if Will is going to lead a feasible life - then I think Clarice would be able to see all round Will in a way Molly simply was not in a position to (because of life experience) but also bring him much-needed light.

Maybe I bang this drum too much but I don't think Will is nearly as dark as he's cracked up to be in general. if, as I think FelliniBlank? Said above, this were a normal show, the violence would be going completely uninterrogated and nobody would ever question Will's use of it. As it is, he's not been going out and, like, baking Girl Scouts into cookies or whatever; he's been violent towards people who would be automatically taken as deserving targets in absolutely any other show. The fandom has been surprisingly black and white about it and in many ways has missed an opportunity to take something seriously that the wider culture doesn't usually take seriously.
posted by tel3path at 10:59 AM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah, just because he has the capacity to genuinely enjoy violence doesn't mean he has ceased to believe in the difference between right and wrong - which is why he kills/attempts to kill both Hannibal and himself. If they survive, I can't see him being like "welp, it's meant to be, let's go eat the rude then."
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:02 AM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


there would be something satisfying in seeing the only two people who could reasonably beat Lecter ride off in the sunset together
posted by The Whelk at 11:02 AM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, it has delighted me to NO END to learn this summer that the showrunner is literally the last person to realize that these guys are really not "exploring platonic straight male friendship" and see him freely and happily admit that it's out of his hands.

I hadn't yet seen this article:

At what point did you decide to take Will and Hannibal's romance from subtext into text? Was that always the plan from season one?

No, it naturally evolved because I guess I was absorbing so much of Mads and Hugh's performance, which felt like it was growing in intimacy, and it would have been inauthentic not to address it. Because all of these characters, and particularly Bedelia, was able to call out what she had witnessed [between Hannibal and Will], it seemed like a natural conclusion.

I remember when I turned in the rewrite pages where Will asks Bedelia if Hannibal is in love with him, I got a note from Don Mancini, one of our writers who was always pushing for more homosexual text – not just context or subtext but text, text, text – and he was like, "I'm so glad you put that in there! They said it! They said it!"

I was a little surprised by how excited he was because it just felt organic to me, so I guess I had been fooling myself about how obvious that element of the story was. Maybe I had been reacting to the feedback in the Twitterverse, where there was a lot of Hannigram wish fulfilment. I hoped that it wouldn't be interpreted as pandering to the hardcore Hannigram fanbase, and that it was felt to be an authentic, logical extension of everything we'd been doing thus far.

posted by showbiz_liz at 11:05 AM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Maybe I bang this drum too much but I don't think Will is nearly as dark as he's cracked up to be in general. if, as I think FelliniBlank? Said above, this were a normal show, the violence would be going completely uninterrogated and nobody would ever question Will's use of it. As it is, he's not been going out and, like, baking Girl Scouts into cookies or whatever; he's been violent towards people who would be automatically taken as deserving targets in absolutely any other show.

Absolutely. My basic position on Will and evil is:

1. I flat out don't believe a lot of the shit Will (and other characters) believes/fears about himself. I don't think he's gone or will go or even could go Full Evil Hannibal Junior. That's such a cartoony thing. I think Will has the same capability for darkness, enjoyment of violence and evil, etc. as me or you or anybody but may have an enhanced sensitivity/affinity for it (?) the way I have an enhanced affinity for art appreciation (which is part of what makes me go crazy when a show like this is cancelled), like it's a thing that speaks to your innermost self on every level -- sensory/sensual, emotional, intellectual, imaginative, spiritual -- in a way it doesn't for some other people.

[ In fact, I don't even see Hannibal as "full evil," especially not since he's been subject to Will's presence and influence. He's one destructive motherfucker who will never be Mister Rogers, but he has human qualities, which is part of what makes him so uncomfortable a character to cope with. Have you noticed how much less alien and . . . glossily reptilian S3 Hannibal's appearance is compared with S1?]

2. Will can do "evil" or destructive or otherwise unpleasant things (and has) without necessarily becoming less sympathetic or making me care less about him as a character. He could go slice-n-dice folks as part of Leopold & Loeb Do Buenos Aires and not necessarily stop also being a good person or person struggling with his desires to do good and ill. Regardless of what he does, I hope he doesn't suffer too much, but I don't care if he stays "pure" or "wins." It's totally plausible to me, as The Whelk and tel3path suggest, that Will could "go dark" in some ways but eventually be extricated or redeemed or recover somewhat. Some contingents of the audience (the ones who strongly preferred Seasons 1 -- middle of 2) really want the show to be a complex sophisticated arty procedural or Harris reboot focusing on classic themes of cop vs. killer, good vs. evil, justice vs. crime/injustice. Which I totally get. And I totally love S1-midS2. But where this beast really claimed my soul was in mid-S2-now where it moved right into the territory of Dostoevsky, Hardy, Verdi, Atom Egoyan, Dumbo, etc. where the characters are not X vs Y but are all compromised, complicated, fucked-up, damaged, broken, lovely people grappling with themselves, each other, and the world in ways that are mostly not pretty.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:42 AM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]


god why is so much of the fic in this fandom that godawful ABO shit

why must there be seductive anal secretions and assbabies

why
posted by poffin boffin at 11:55 AM on September 8, 2015 [5 favorites]


I get the impression that it's in every fandom -- kind of a fashion trend of the moment among the youth of today?
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:03 PM on September 8, 2015


compromised, complicated, fucked-up, damaged, broken, lovely people grappling with themselves, each other, and the world in ways that are mostly not pretty.

The really interesting thing about the back half of the series, to me, is how almost everybody was being driven to act by strong emotions. Their actions conflicted with reason in many cases, and they acknowledged that fact, but it didn't change anything for them.

(There might be something to the idea that Hannibal and Will represent the conflict between reason and emotion in human beings, but it's been a long time since IB English...)
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:04 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


god why is so much of the fic in this fandom that godawful ABO shit

Is this show not kinky enough for people already?
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:10 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


it's a creaky old fandom relic of the LJ supernatural kink memes in which prompters wanted to see j2 get fucked by jared's dogs

i wish it would die forever rather than butt juice up new fandoms
posted by poffin boffin at 12:11 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Everyone's worried about Will's "darkness," but unlike the respectable and morally upstanding Alana and Margot, he hasn't committed premeditated murder for personal gain (and revenge). He was no more and potentally less implicated in Chilton's roasting than Jack and Alana. Jack was perfectly happy to collude on extrajudicial murder of Francis and Hannibal, etc.

And really, I'll stand up and give Fuller a round of applause if we get to Season 4 (or whatever) and he has the guts to make Will even more of a scary predator and not let viewers stop liking him. He's been doing that this season, but not in a "Walter White becomes Heisenberg" "Will turns into Hannibal" transformational way -- he's adding or expanding those parts of his psychological makeup without losing his sweetness, kindness, etc. along the way.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:14 PM on September 8, 2015


He's almost like the Dragon "absorbing" energies to add to his own, but without murdering the energy's original owner.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:18 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


That's part of why it astounds me that much of the audience feels "done" after the S3 finale. Because my reaction was OH BOY, I can't wait to see who Will and Hannibal are, together and individually, after this and what ripples this causes as things progress. But I get why a lot of people don't want Will to survive that fall.
posted by FelliniBlank at 12:23 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


I totally get it. If this is the ending, it would be the perfect way of having it both ways. Will finally gives in to his desire to be with Hannibal, and Will finally defeats Hannibal, all in one. His increasing inability to pick a side, which has been a key aspect of the whole series, culminated in his realization that he could pick both at once, and also end his own inner turmoil forever. But that dual state of affairs really could only exist in that moment when he flings them both to their deaths.

If the series continues, it will lose that perfectly poetic conclusion. Which is not to say it won't come up with another one - but I think people fear that no post-cliff-dive ending would be so dramatically satisfying.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:37 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


Actually, hey, speaking of which

Did you guys ever read The Awakening? I was thinking of the similarities between the ending of that book and the ending of season 3. Basically: a woman feels increasingly uncomfortable with her traditional role in society, gradually tries to escape it (in ways that were considered scandalous and shocking when the book was published) but is unable to, and ultimately chooses to swim out to sea and drown rather than return to her old life or totally cast it off. It depicts this as a rational choice - a way of taking agency over her life and body in the only way available to her, given the constraints on her.

Will, as well, is trapped between two worlds, neither of which he can fully inhabit after his awakening. And so he drowns himself, thereby rejecting his expected/traditional role while remaining true to himself. It's not a perfect fit (because, well, you've got women's lib as the equivalent of murderlust in this scenario), and I doubt it was in any way intentional, but I thought it was a neat parallel.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:48 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also, I don't know how often this comes up in Murder Husbands/S4 fics but, Will would have all the say in that relationship. What's he going to do? Kill him? The one and possibly only thing Hannibal has ever really wanted in life finally and without apparent trickery falling into his arms? Will's calling the shots on how life on the run goes, and he's not killing for sport.

Vengeance and justice maybe but not sport. Hannibal's on a .....short leash.
posted by The Whelk at 12:51 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


god why is so much of the fic in this fandom that godawful ABO shit

why must there be seductive anal secretions and assbabies

I will just never understand this shit. The alpha/beta/omega and mpreg bullshit can just go die in a fire.

It's really disappointing when you're reading the summary for an interesting looking fic and then you glance at the tags and see one of those and it's just such a let down.

I don't remember coming across that stuff in the hay day of my participation in the Harry Potter fandom, but maybe it's because I was 16 and stayed away from the weirder shit.

Actually, wait, no that's not even true. I totally wandered away from fanfiction.net to those other more explicit sites. I guess maybe it just hadn't caught on in the HP fandom.
posted by litera scripta manet at 12:52 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think it's relatively new, and might not have been around back then at all.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:53 PM on September 8, 2015


Did you guys ever read The Awakening?

Huh, I hadn't thought of that before but I could totally see the connection. It's almost more fitting in a way than the Sherlock/Reichenbach comparison (except the cliff thing, of course), because there's a lot more inherent violence and conflict in the Sherlock version, but in this show, there's a calmer acceptance, a sort of giving in. It's been awhile since I read The Awakening, but I remember it having that same emotional quality.
posted by litera scripta manet at 12:55 PM on September 8, 2015


And really, I'll stand up and give Fuller a round of applause if we get to Season 4 (or whatever) and he has the guts to make Will even more of a scary predator and not let viewers stop liking him

I would be very interested to see a future arc (maybe after a season 4 of Hannibal and Will settling into some sort of domestic, old couple dynamic) in which Will does get drawn more towards his darkest desires/fears, and then Hannibal finds himself in the position of trying to draw Will out of that mindset again. That would be a very interesting role reversal, although I think to pull it off, they would have to give a plausible reason for Will's new, darker persona.

I mean, at first, Hannibal would probably go along with it, and be like "Yay, murder husbands, emphasis on the murder part," but in the long term, I don't know that he would necessarily want a Will who is completely dark and amoral, especially because I feel like, in a certain way, Will has a capacity to go even darker than Hannibal.

But of course, eventually Hannibal would fix Will and then they'd ride off into the sunset together.

Actually, I'm just going to add this to my list of future fanfics to write.
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:00 PM on September 8, 2015


I totally get it. If this is the ending, it would be the perfect way of having it both ways. Will finally gives in to his desire to be with Hannibal, and Will finally defeats Hannibal, all in one. His increasing inability to pick a side, which has been a key aspect of the whole series, culminated in his realization that he could pick both at once, and also end his own inner turmoil forever. But that dual state of affairs really could only exist in that moment when he flings them both to their deaths.

I totally get that too. But Fuller did not intend for Will's (or Hannibal's) character arc to end in that very poetic and kind of consoling way; it's just supposed to be a way station. I know we all long for these characters to end in the least awful, troubling places possible, but when has this show ever allowed us to feel only the conventional things we want to feel and avoid being troubled or tortured or freaked out or uneasy, or avoid liking X but simultaneously feeling creepy and compromised about liking X? It's just not the kind of FINAL Hannigram arc ending that makes sense in Bryan's aesthetic or thematic sense of this show, which most of all is about taking us or making us go or making us want to be in places we resist going or don't anticipate or can't really envision as beautiful (or envision at all) until Hannibal Fuller gets us there.

And all of that is just me rationalizing my desire for more show :)
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:02 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


You guys what does it mean if my AO3 statistics dashboard says my thing has been bookmarked X times, but the public page for the thing says X-10 times? Does it mean my Hannigram thingy is 10 people's secret privately bookmarked shame fic? Because that is AWESOME. I've never been so proud of myself.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure this is what happens when people have privately bookmarked your fic. I've had that show up before on some of my fanfics, and that was the conclusion I came to.
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:03 PM on September 8, 2015


I think it's relatively new, and might not have been around back then at all.

i'm guessing maybe 2006-2007? whenever it was that jensen and jared moved in together and fandom went absolutely balls out tinhat motherfucking nuts
posted by poffin boffin at 1:11 PM on September 8, 2015


Also, I don't know how often this comes up in Murder Husbands/S4 fics but, Will would have all the say in that relationship. What's he going to do? Kill him? The one and possibly only thing Hannibal has ever really wanted in life finally and without apparent trickery falling into his arms? Will's calling the shots on how life on the run goes, and he's not killing for sport.

I concur (assuming they both come out of the fall more or less intact); Will is not gonna be some Abigail-y protegee regardless of what else happens. In a way that's what I meant by hoping that Fuller lets him be a scary predator -- not that he should be murdering people in S4 but that he's just as dominant a player in this partnership, whatever it may be, as Hannibal is. The Will of 3x10-13 and maybe the whole second half is scarier than fuck in terms of how he quietly contains multitudes and is way more unreadable than the second half of S2.

I mean, look at his post-Francis-menacing-Molly conv. with Hannibal. He's enraged but a lot of other things too and he sort of pulls it all into himself. I don't think there was any point in the last three episodes where his mix of motives was 100% simple or apparent. During the second "I need you. Please" conv. with Hannibal in 3x13, the two of them are having a multi-level exchange of information that we're mostly not privy to, like how dogs have bazillions more scent receptors than humans. I'm still not all that sure he's exactly "in love" with Hannibal the way Hannibal is with him, with his whole being, or if he's somewhat more in love with the experience to which Hannibal is a conduit and interested in leveraging* Hannibal's love as a means of containment/control.

Whereas Hannibal has become more and more of an open book emotionally and always was more of one (for the audience) than Will.

*I think I actually used the word "leverage" in the 3x12 thread, without realizing it would turn out to be in the "as in shifting balance to fall off an eroding bluff" sense. It's my fault! I (semi-) (possibly) killed them!
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:26 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


So I was re-reading the weird deer recap for this episode, because apparently I want to make myself start ugly crying in the half hour before I have to leave for work, and it reminded me that I had been meaning to comment on this paragraph in the recap:

But Hannibal walks away. Will genuinely looks a little crushed. You IDIOT Lecter. But he’s going to get shot in T minus 5 seconds so some distance might be alright. WAIT. DID HE KNOW?? FUCK. Ok wait hold on I’m getting ahead of myself. SO, Hannibal walks a few paces closer to the window and tells Will that there’s no greater love than laying down your life for a friend, holy fucking frick, and Will says that Dolarhyde is surely watching them right now, and Hannibal sadly (!) says “I know” (!!) and then he’s shot in the side. HE MIGHT HAVE PREDICTED THIS AND STEPPED AWAY TO SPARE WILL? PLAUSIBLE. I CLING TO IT.

I hadn't thought about this on first watch (or even first re-watch), but after reading the recap and re-watching this episode, this interpretation of that scene seemed very plausible. In fact, it almost seems obvious, especially with the heavy foreshadowing of the "no greater love than laying down your life for a friend" line. What do you guys think? Personally, I'm officially adding it to my headcanon.
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:32 PM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]


i'm guessing maybe 2006-2007? whenever it was that jensen and jared moved in together and fandom went absolutely balls out tinhat motherfucking nuts

I think 2006 was when I went on a hiatus from fandom, so that would make sense. It made me feel very old to come back to fandom 8 years later and realize that now everyone has moved from LJ to tumblr and twitter.

But I am really glad that we have AO3 now. I hate the ff.net interface with a fiery passion.
posted by litera scripta manet at 1:34 PM on September 8, 2015


HE MIGHT HAVE PREDICTED THIS AND STEPPED AWAY TO SPARE WILL? PLAUSIBLE. I CLING TO IT.

That makes sense. He'd want to spare Will harm, and also, Hannibal knows his being harmed is pretty much necessary to spur Will to intervene and get things happening. It's also a way for Hannibal to take some control in the situation by providing an irresistible target and thereby "deciding" when the attack will begin, instead of just waiting for Francis to initiate it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:39 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh, got my AO3 invite. "Unless it violates some other policy, we will not remove Content for offensiveness, no matter how awful, repugnant, or badly spelled we may personally find that content to be." Love it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:44 PM on September 8, 2015 [5 favorites]


Y'know, it's good that Will knew going into this that he can't go home to Molly (it was all over but the shouting after the hospital chat anyhow) because can you IMAGINE him showing up after 3x13 and, of course, feeling he needed to come clean with her about his . . . lapse? one-nighter? It's always so difficult to have the infidelity conversation [mind boggles].
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:57 PM on September 8, 2015


Molly could obviously exit the narrative completely after this, but I think it would be really interesting to see what her place in a season 4 might be.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:02 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Exactly. Repercussions and ripples and consequences. I know it won't happen, but her and Reba becoming bitterness friends (well, initially bitter but then just friends) would put a spring in my step.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:08 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


her and Reba becoming bitterness friends (well, initially bitter but then just friends) would put a spring in my step.

All the stuff Will said to Reba could potentially apply to Molly as well as to himself. Be kinda nice if Reba was able to tell Molly what he said.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:15 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wow, cool idea -- very poignant and again, exploring the effects of Will's actions without making him unsympathetic. See, this is exactly why I resist the cliff-plunge-as-end-of-story. I'd like the messier version with the consequences because where have we ever seen that kind of rumination on violence etc.?
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:22 PM on September 8, 2015


Plus, Will and Hannibal in a convertible in Rio? Come ON.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:23 PM on September 8, 2015


"So let me get this straight: he dumped me for the guy who tried to kill me, and Wally, and the dogs, and everybody Will knows, and Will himself, several times? The guy who framed and tortured and medically abused him?"

That would be unfun for the old self-esteem if it weren't so patently "it's REALLY not me, it's him."
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:31 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


All this talk of fanfic reminds me of when I got paid cash monies to write fanfic
posted by The Whelk at 2:34 PM on September 8, 2015 [4 favorites]


It had occurred to me that you need to update that. "if Will Graham were your boyfriend he would break you out of prison." "if Will Graham were your boyfriend there's like a 50/50 chance he'd try to kill you at least once a year." "if Will Graham were your boyfriend, between the dog hair and the blood, you'd probably need a really good dry cleaner on speed dial."
posted by Stacey at 3:04 PM on September 8, 2015 [6 favorites]


Somebody buy Bryan a gift MetaFilter membership so we can drag his ass in here and make him PROMISE to get this shit on the screen someway. These threads really are a microcosm of every constituency of the fanbase.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:11 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Everyone's worried about Will's "darkness," but unlike the respectable and morally upstanding Alana and Margot, he hasn't committed premeditated murder for personal gain (and revenge).

I see what you did there.

I must defend Margot and Alana in the literal sense that they didn't commit premeditated murder. It started out with Mason shooting *at them* and then falling through the glass of the eel tank which he shattered with the shots he fired.

They then proceeded to segue from self-defense into murder when they held him underwater and did nothing to protect him from the eel.

I'm not going to unpack their motivations and rationale for any of that, just pointing out that although it was murder, it wasn't premeditated.

I was about to say that's a bit of a dead horse and I won't flog it any longer. However, the ONLY person who I've ever seen criticizing Margot's plan to produce an heir was rue72, back in season 2. She's the only person who ever - rightly, in my opinion - pointed out that Margot should have said screw the money and gotten away by any means necessary. I think Margot's case is a very interesting one in that it would have been more morally defensible for her to kill (her brother, which she originally attempted in self-defence) than to create life (a Verger heir, a child produced for the primary purpose of getting money). The big flaw in the case against Margot is that Mason had almost unlimited resources and was connected to the Mob, such that he either was or seemed capable of hunting her down wherever she went. Indeed, we saw that her attempt to leave Muskrat Farm was immediately thwarted by Carlo, and Margot was immediately maimed for her troubles. To me, that makes a convincing case for why Margot thought she couldn't leave.

But I'm not too sympathetic to the argument that seems to be accepted in the fandom, that "oh well she was too privileged to know how to get a job so of course it's fine for her to take or make life in order to get some money". That's different from acknowledging the reality that Mason was never going to let her leave the premises, let alone get a job and earn her own money.
posted by tel3path at 3:27 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Will's calling the shots on how life on the run goes

I wish that were true, but the axiomatic problem is that Hannibal has no moral boundary, whereas Will does.

The ONLY workable solution is for Hannibal to adapt, and there's been a hint of how the little adaptation he's achieved is so "inconvenient", I just, like, don't hold your breath.
posted by tel3path at 3:29 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wow, cool idea -- very poignant and again, exploring the effects of Will's actions without making him unsympathetic. See, this is exactly why I resist the cliff-plunge-as-end-of-story. I'd like the messier version with the consequences

What I haven't seen acknowledged really anywhere is: Molly started out talking about Will going off to "do the right thing" and how much this would satisfy her.

On his way off this mortal coil, Will created a narrative whereby he "did the right thing", i.e. slayed the dragon, AND defeated Hannibal, and lost his life in the process. It's a reiteration of Jack's "official hero" narrative, but with a great deal more truth to it (of course it's not the whole truth but what ever is).

Now, Molly is:
- not under threat from Hannibal
- not under threat from Dolarhyde or any freaks that might subsequently have latched onto Will
- no longer ball-and-chained to someone whose life with her had irrevocably changed for the worse
- able to tell herself, and plausibly believe, that Will had died a hero's death BECAUSE HE DID (whatever else he is, Will is also a hero)

You could say Will was setting every prisoner free, there, including Molly.
posted by tel3path at 3:40 PM on September 8, 2015 [4 favorites]


The thing is, I don't really blame Alana and Margot one bit for getting rid of Mason (and Margot certainly half-intended or hoped well in advance to eliminate him once she had secured the semen); the point was that everybody, Alana for instance, does blame or worry about Will for the "dark" things he has done when his dark things are no more dark and in some cases lighter than theirs. Nobody's hands are clean here, but he's the only one who routinely gets treated and regarded as some sort of ticking bomb.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:40 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


You could say Will was setting every prisoner free, there, including Molly.

Absolutely. I think it becomes harder for her to have that narrative hang together if she becomes aware Will is still alive and not on his own -- although I think it's still just as much true, even if he takes off with Hannibal.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:50 PM on September 8, 2015


That's right, and it persistently bugs me. Everybody else projects their own darkness onto Will (bonearenaofmyskull has made a convincing case for everybody seeing Will as a funhouse mirror reflection of themselves) as a way of not owning their own shit.

To have that happening is one thing, but to have the audience buying into it, and taking as gospel all the other characters' opinions about Will while dismissing Will's own opinions out of hand. Because he's crazy and evil and stuff.

Like, everyone seems to take it as gospel what Chiyoh said about "oh you set me up to kill this prisoner! you think just like Hannibal! all your fault!" while ignoring Will's protest "I didn't want this to happen". I'm not saying Chiyoh might not have a point, but so does Will! (Never mind the widespread ignoring of the basic humanity of that prisoner.)

It's another way, though, in which Will is in a Christlike position, because he takes on the sins of everybody around him. And unfortunately for him, he is only human, with his own human sinfulness to struggle with. Basically Will ends up paying for everything. (Even for the Faustian bargain that Alana made "for Will's life".)

If there's anything the show has been trying to impress upon us throughout the season, it's that THERE IS NONE THAT IS RIGHTEOUS, NOT EVEN ONE. I see people trying to argue for the innocence of Chilton this year, but that's only because he hasn't done anything lately - he was literally introduced to us as the doctor who medically tortured one of his patients for years. For personal gain. That puts him in the category of "shepherds who devour their sheep" - Biblically, it is extremely evil for someone to exploit and abuse those he is entrusted to care for. Now, in Chilton's defense, it is true that he thought he was helping - but he also knew full well medical torture was wrong, duh. Also when he figured out that Hannibal had been doing the same to Will, his response was to try to conspire with Hannibal - though that, too, is complicated by the fact that he was also trying to be a double agent, and the fact that it might even be more reprehensible if he tried to grass Hannibal up for doing the exact same thing that he had done. (Of course, Will told him his life depended on confessing his own sins in the same breath he accused Hannibal, and silly Chilly didn't listen and the rock cried out no hiding place, etc.) But anyway, yeah, I've gone on a bit but Chilton isn't innocent by any means. He's just self-serving, rather than actually malicious.
posted by tel3path at 3:54 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, but since Will intended to die and to kill Hannibal in the process, you can't blame Will for not thinking "what if we survive this fall and end up running off together as murder boyfrands? better make sure Molly doesn't find out! yeah, if we live we should totally go to argentina or someplace, so that she doesn't know about it."

I mean, he probably did not think those things, and from our perspective it's an appalling failure of planning, but you know how it is when you're exhausted from breaking your boyfrand out of prison and killing a dragon. Some things slip your mind.
posted by tel3path at 3:58 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Like, you know how passing through a doorway erases your short-term memories?

I wouldn't be surprised if falling off a cliff into the Atlantic had the same effect. The need for further study is indicated.
posted by tel3path at 4:00 PM on September 8, 2015


What? I was just talking about how if Will survives and doesn't go home or goes off with Hannibal, then as long as nobody figures that out or as long as Jack makes sure Molly only knows the "hero's death" portion of the story, then all is good.

Will's not responsible for what Molly does or doesn't find out either way.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:02 PM on September 8, 2015


Yeah, I know. I was agreeing with you.
posted by tel3path at 4:02 PM on September 8, 2015


Oh, good. I thought I had stated everything poorly again.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:03 PM on September 8, 2015


It's late and I'm tired

I just want to go on and on and on and on and on and on and on about Hannigram. Can you blame me?
posted by tel3path at 4:05 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


And yeah, I am appalled at the encroachment of ABO dynamics into this fandom.

I mean, I was willing to tolerate buttsecks if that's what Hannigram felt they needed to do.

But I wish I had never ever heard of any such idea as this ABO stuff. It is beyond brain bleach levels of revolting.

Worst of all is when my most favouritest, most respected writers start writing in this genre. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK THAT STUFF WAS A GOOD IDEA.

EW.
posted by tel3path at 4:14 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


I'm kind of... there's so much nuance packed into Alana visiting Chilton to remind herself of "what Hannibal can do".

Part of it has got to be confusion over the boundaries of what Hannibal was able to pull off, on her watch, that she didn't know about.

Part of it has got to be regression into a state of irresponsibility. That's another thing - Alana's character growth this season was towards responsibility, whereas previously she was all about sloughing off and denying responsibility. She sure overcame *that* - and now, she's really flailing, trying to impute some causality for Chilton's damage onto Hannibal?

Or is it that Hannibal made her think this way? I doubt it, because she's been the leader of the Chilton Damage Glee Club for three years running now, and if she got that from Hannibal I'm a monkey's uncle. Does she want to believe Hannibal made her think this way? Maybe, but more importantly I think she's having to deal with the flip side of taking responsibility for using her knowledge of Hannibal to contain him - which is that she's made her entire life to be about him. The influence he could have? was? wasn't? exerting over her has been visually mirrored in any number of ways we've already mentioned (mirror image office, Hannibalesque suits, etc). I think that in the beginning, their relationship was kind of sick because she didn't want to individuate from him, as if he were a parental figure and she were a child that didn't quite want to grow up. Then, she thought (not incorrectly) that she'd repudiated him and that circumstance and responsibility/penance were forcing her to continue at least half-centering her life around him. And here she is now, questioning just how much she has managed to get on top of his influence. She must be wondering where she ends and he begins.
posted by tel3path at 4:31 PM on September 8, 2015


just don't let it be over because if it ends with a bunch of morally desolate and/or dead people and a wasteland of ABO or darkly-darkest-dark!Will!5eva!!!! fic my own life will not be worth living

that's all i'm saying
posted by tel3path at 4:55 PM on September 8, 2015


Stacey, Whelk, everyone please keep writing just save me from this fate
posted by tel3path at 4:57 PM on September 8, 2015


CAN'T LIIIIIIIIIIVVVE

IF LIVING IS WITHOOUUUT

hannigram
posted by tel3path at 5:06 PM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]


I have no idea whether I have any more stories in me after this one, but I absolutely swear to you that if I do, they will never, ever be ABO stories. Mostly because I still have only a half understanding of what that is (NO ONE TELL ME, HALF IS ENOUGH) and I don't want to know any more than that.

I have no idea about darkness levels. I mean, this one's turning out kinda angsty but there's a discarded chapter I will probably turn into a standalone which is basically just Will and Hannibal on the run, and Will taunting Hannibal with crappy gas station junk food. SO I don't think that's going to a dark place except inasmuch as Funyuns are kind of depressing to begin with.

Today's problem is that the chapter after next is about 300 words short and I really like my chapter breaks where they are so IDK maybe I just have to write 300 words of smut to pad my word count? We shall see.
posted by Stacey at 5:34 PM on September 8, 2015 [4 favorites]


Feel free to share those 300 words of smut.
posted by h00py at 5:43 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


and, you know, Hannibal needs to feel that someone likes him for him, too

he asked Bedelia about 'lucid greed' before they ran off together - Will isn't at all seduced by glamour, he is an aesthetic person, but he knows the truth about all that glisters
posted by tel3path at 6:22 PM on September 8, 2015


Worst of all is when my most favouritest, most respected writers start writing in this genre. WHAT IS WRONG WITH THEM WHY WOULD ANYONE THINK THAT STUFF WAS A GOOD IDEA.

Ugh, yeah, this is the worst. Whenever I find a story I like, I always go and systematically sort through the other works by that writer (and then look through their bookmarks), and it's such a bummer when like every other story they've written is ABO shit. I'm just like, how could this writer have gone so wrong? I actually kind of want to have a conversation with some of these people who write ABO stories just to find out what on earth could be the appeal. Like, I get that everyone has their own kinks and whatnot, and I feel like spending years in various fandoms has gotten be pretty de-sensitized to a lot of weird fanfiction conventions, but ABO is just like a crime against humanity. AND YET it is so fucking popular. The mind boggles.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:58 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


I imagine its popularity is self-perpetuating - you write an ABO thing, it gets a ton of attention, and then you just keep doing it because feedback is like crack
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:11 PM on September 8, 2015


Oh, also, I want to go back to the comment upthread about how Mads ships Hannigram, and basically how everyone on this show ships Hannigram, and how that is like the best thing ever.

One of the frustrating things about BBC Sherlock is that the show has a very similar dynamic between John and Sherlock, only without the trying to kill each other thing and heck, they live together for the first two seasons. And the writers love teasing fans with this stuff (like, the sheer number of times other characters mistake John and Sherlock for a couple is just crazy), and they have so many subtle and not so subtle signals indicating the fact that they care for each other in a way that is not just "oh you're my best guy friend," but then the writers and the actors (especially Benedict Cumberbatch, who I do absolutely love) treat it as this sort of out there thing, like it would never happen. Like, it's just a punchline. I don't think Steven Moffat could even conceive of Sherlock being gay, and sure, he seems much more asexual then anything, but if he did have some kind of orientation, it would be gay (at least for this specific tv version). It's so clear. And it's just kind of shitty to jerk fans around like that.

But with this show, even though we probably won't ever get Hannibal and Will literally having sex, and that's okay (as long as they ride off into the sunset together) the show doesn't shy away from this being a romance. These two are basically soul mates, which is actually a term I kind of hate, but I feel like it fits here. And I'm just really glad everyone on the show is on board with that.

I guess what I'm trying to say is this is pretty much my platonic ideal of a show, and sometimes that makes me feel lots of feelings, and I don't ever want this show to end, and I will be absolutely forever devastated if we don't get a season four, and please Bryan Fuller, you don't want to ruin all of our lives, do you?'

Oh, and I love the idea of getting Bryan Fuller a metafilter account. Or heck, just sending him a link to this thread, this long ass thread that I hope never ends...or at least not until we get another season.

I feel like I'm always talking about Sherlock, but hey, Moriarty/Reichenbach. Also there are a lot of other parallels. Also...okay that's pretty much it. I'm out of excuses.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:20 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


I imagine its popularity is self-perpetuating - you write an ABO thing, it gets a ton of attention, and then you just keep doing it because feedback is like crack

Yeah, good point. There are definitely stories that I continued with because they got very positive feedback. Like a legit het romance with a marriage proposal and everything, which I never thought I'd write.

In other news, I went ahead and tentatively scheduled the Hannibal Rising movie thread for November 7, because I felt like we should have at least one event scheduled for the Cannibal Club.

Oh, and who's allowed to edit mefi wiki? Because I want this thread to get added to the list of threads that have more than 1000 comments (even though it's a little weird since the comment count keeps increasing, but whatever, we've earned a spot.)
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:25 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ah, just kidding, I totally answered my own question. I guess any mefite can edit the wiki if they register first.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:26 PM on September 8, 2015


I am super-duper disappointed that searching Spotify I couldn't find a SINGLE! playlist titled murderhusbands or Will Graham's Puppy Mix or Hannibal is a Cookie Monster playlist, just a couple of classical music soundtracks. There's this Hannibal the Cannibal playlist, but frankly compared to the hundreds of Sad!Bucky playlists, I am shocked, shocked.

Also, I don't know how to set up a shared playlist called "Murder Husbands Honeymoon Mix" but if anyone else does, please do!
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:39 PM on September 8, 2015


Easy peasy.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:43 PM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]


Unfortunately Taylor Swift's oeuvre is absent from Spotify tho
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


His increasing inability to pick a side, which has been a key aspect of the whole series, culminated in his realization that he could pick both at once, and also end his own inner turmoil forever. But that dual state of affairs really could only exist in that moment when he flings them both to their deaths.

That's part of what makes this an interesting season finale, but the fact that it wasn't intended as a series finale (unless absolutely necessary) tells me that maybe the idea going forward is that there's more than one way/moment to exist in that duality although not without some turmoil, which maybe is worth it? or at least is part of living. or something? There's some reason why he didn't intend Will&Hams to end on those rocks and thinks it's compelling or necessary to have them survive. Or maybe Bryan did plan for a lovers' leap to be THE end at the end of six seasons and then just yanked it up here because of the Cancellation Vibe he got last fall. And then stuck on the stinger just to give himself options.

It just feels like the series ending for a version of Hannibal that's closer to Pushing Daisies in its overall world view (things sort of make sense, people get sort of semi-what they deserve, justice sort of semi-triumphs, there is peace in death if not in life? I dunno) than to the universe of this here show. In this show, I think it's the turmoil more than the satisfying "order restoring" resolution that Fuller is more interested in. Reitzell is a pretty good illustration. Heck, this is part of why you disliked "Love Crime" -- a tuneful song is as incongruous with the overall vibe of this world as this season finale is within the series as a whole. I love this finale, I think it's perfect as 3x13, but it's an outlier. Maybe that's Will's gift; that his sacrifice can lend harmony and tune to ShowUniverse.

If the series continues, it will lose that perfectly poetic conclusion. Which is not to say it won't come up with another one - but I think people fear that no post-cliff-dive ending would be so dramatically satisfying.

Since this was always going to close Season 3 regardless of the fate of the show, I'm wondering how people would feel about 3x13 and S4 if the show HAD been renewed in mid-August. Would people be saying "perfect series finale, end it now, don't do a Season 4" and be disappointed if the show went on? Or would they be saying, "fantastic season ending, no fucking idea where we go from here, but what a wild weird ride it will be." Or something else. All our interpretations and judgments of it have to be colored somewhat by the circumstances.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:03 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Although actually the song and the gorgeous sky and all strike me as being an externalization of the murder-beauty and intimacy and harmony Hannigram are sharing at that moment. We get to see and hear what they're feeling a bit. But it also feels like an intermission, a pleasant rest at the halfway point:

[three seasons of hell] [~~blufftop Hannigram break~~] [three more seasons of probable hell]
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:15 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


Or maybe Bryan did plan for a lovers' leap to be THE end at the end of six seasons and then just yanked it up here because of the Cancellation Vibe he got last fall. And then stuck on the stinger just to give himself options.

Well, that's the fear ain't it?

Don't get me wrong, I want this damn show to go on for as long as the people involved do. I'm just wondering if Bryan has written himself into a corner he didn't originally envision writing himself into.

Oh, wait, I know where this feeling is coming from: I was a big Buffy fan during the original run. So when my protagonist takes a swan-dive to their death in a bargain to stop an unstoppable evil, I have reason to fear that their resurrection on a new network may not be narratively satisfying. (But, on the other hand, maybe we'll get that musical episode)
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:19 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


you guys twisted my arm, Interview with an Empath Updates

Man Will you really got a hold of that withholding thing. Bet it drives him wild
posted by The Whelk at 9:20 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


considering the level of broadway talent in the cast I've been waiting for a musical episode since like, episode one
posted by The Whelk at 9:21 PM on September 8, 2015 [2 favorites]


(I didn't put it in the chapter notes but Chatelain is a historical name possibly meaning jailer(
posted by The Whelk at 9:23 PM on September 8, 2015


PS add to that collab playlist, fellow nerds
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:26 PM on September 8, 2015


Don't get me wrong, I want this damn show to go on for as long as the people involved do. I'm just wondering if Bryan has written himself into a corner he didn't originally envision writing himself into.

The nice part is that I'm sure we'll eventually find out how it happened since he's not at all secretive about dissecting that stuff publicly after the fact and discussing how plans changed and "why we did X instead of Y" in real world terms.

That type of ending is fine for Romeo and Juliet or Wuthering Heights, but it's just too dang (dark) fairytale here -- it dovetails beautifully with the "once upon a time" of Antipasto, though. Nice season bookending there. It just seems so Fuller to me that he'd go "and they all died happily ever after, the end" and then start S4 with Hannigram sunning themselves semi-predatorily in Greece, like "Oh, sorry, did you think this was the show where things go as Will Graham planned , ever?"
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:32 PM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]


It's fun to toss around. Just so we're clear, though: I'm still 100% aware of the fact that this is merely me tap-dancing like crazy to keep from thinking of the show as over and, especially, to avoid considering the unlikelihood of our ever seeing another moment of these characters beyond the ones we've already gotten, other than the possibly forthcoming bluff outtakes. No more Mads and Hugh burning up the screen separately or together. Bummer.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:45 PM on September 8, 2015


Fanfic means it never has to end! He said, not knowing the ending and I always started knowing the ending and THIS WAS JUST SUPPOSED TO BE A LITTLE POST FIX-FIT FIC WHAT HAVE I SIGNED UP FOR
posted by The Whelk at 9:55 PM on September 8, 2015 [3 favorites]


A little part of my brain does long for the whole thing to be a fakeout, with the fall staged (for the camera?) as part of a semi-mutual (and semi-hostile since that's part of their love-thang) effort to spring Hannibal, draw and neutralize the Dragon as a consummation, and make good their escape without pursuit, with Chiyo's help, one assumes. Pretty much every line of dialogue, movement, and exchange of glances after W&H step out of the wrecked police van can be read multiple ways if you choose, right up through the fall. There's a lot of offscreen time in the car and house, plenty of offscreen time between Francis grabbing Will in the motel and Will presenting the "FBI plan" to Hannibal for Will to think through what he really wants. And there is definitely an interesting dynamic to that conversation, various unspoken things going on, that weren't present in their previous chat. Maybe just because they were sharing space again, though.

Oh, Will (and Bryan) would be a dark cunning boy indeed if that were the case. The one thing that could make me lean that way is Will's conversation with Bedelia. He's probably just trying to scare the piss out of her, but their dynamic is almost more like Hannibal WILL be on the loose than "it's possible he could get loose if things go sideways." The threat, the warning. And all the mournful resigned suicidal comments would apply just as well to how you'd talk about imminently burning your whole life down to be reborn into a different one. It's not like Will would be doing a happy dance about such a choice. This is a total bullshit theory, but it kind of cheers me up.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:35 PM on September 8, 2015 [1 favorite]


How comforted I am by Whelk's latest instalment.
posted by tel3path at 3:56 AM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'd love to add to the Murder Honeymoon Mix but the one and only fanvid I ever made (to date) was to Jonathan Coulton's "I Crush Everything" because post-Mizumono I was convinced that Hannibal as self-loathing giant squid crushing all the boats he loved made perfect sense.

So I probably should not be let anywhere near Hannigram songs.

Although I am now semi-convinced that post-S3 that song still works but is actually about Will now and I should redo the video.

You know, once I'm finished with the 300 words of smut. Which has turned out be 100 words of a weird analogy about the ocean so far, but maybe I can wring 200 words of smut from somewhere in my brain.
posted by Stacey at 5:32 AM on September 9, 2015


Oh goody, Kitteh (and the thread in general) got sidebarred, hooray! Perhaps MeFi's finest photo moment.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:06 AM on September 9, 2015 [2 favorites]




Delightful!
posted by The Whelk at 7:55 AM on September 9, 2015


Oh, wow, I am on the sidebar! That freaks me out a little, but EVERYONE MUST KNOW THAT FANFARE HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED BY OUR FAVOURITE SUAVE CANNIBAL (and his gorgeous morally bankrupt psychiatrist/protege).
posted by Kitteh at 7:58 AM on September 9, 2015 [6 favorites]


Bones are always good for decorating. I approve. Gold star for you.
posted by Stacey at 8:10 AM on September 9, 2015


dorothyisunderwood: I am super-duper disappointed that searching Spotify I couldn't find a SINGLE! playlist titled murderhusbands or Will Graham's Puppy Mix or Hannibal is a Cookie Monster playlist, just a couple of classical music soundtracks. There's this Hannibal the Cannibal playlist, but frankly compared to the hundreds of Sad!Bucky playlists, I am shocked, shocked.

At least one of the classical music soundtracks is mine (URI: spotify:user:1236893927:playlist:126XcxswO4im89lGhenPNu). And I just made public my playlist that includes the full pieces (adding in the other movements for a piano trio, or the rest of the act for an opera aria) (URI: spotify:user:1236893927:playlist:4AEGLGv0DnfU1q7sOMuQLa) in case anyone is interested in that sort of thing.


showbiz_liz: PS add to that collab playlist, fellow nerds

Just followed and will add more once I get in the right headspace. And wow, yeah, some Taylor Swift would fit here real well!
posted by mountmccabe at 9:15 AM on September 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


IT'S SO FUNNY YOU SHOULD SAY THAT *theatrical wink*
posted by The Whelk at 9:25 AM on September 9, 2015


can;t stop, won't stop, minor update to Interview With An Empath
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 AM on September 9, 2015


Oh, wow, I am on the sidebar! That freaks me out a little, but EVERYONE MUST KNOW THAT FANFARE HAS BEEN RECOGNIZED BY OUR FAVOURITE SUAVE CANNIBAL (and his gorgeous morally bankrupt psychiatrist/protege).

I just printed a lovely color full-page copy to display in my office because my coworkers and students just don't think I'm a big enough oddball already. This should hold me until I can replace it with an actual photo-printed framed copy and place it between Funko Hannibal and Wendigo.

Someone so needs to throw me off a cliff, posthaste.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:36 AM on September 9, 2015


To expand on the batshit Blufftop Fakeout scenario: What are the key facts Will learns/realizes from the latter part of 3x12 through the early scenes of 3x13 (up to the end of his motel conv. with Francis)?

1. Hannibal is in love with him.
2. His marriage is dead; it just hasn't been buried yet.
3. Francis (still) needs to be stopped so everyone Will loves and everyone else is safe and is the sort of person a righteously angry fellow would enjoy killing. Plus it would probably make Wally hate Will less.
4. Francis wants to kill him and Hannibal.
5. FRANCIS FAKED HIS MURDER-SUICIDE.

Those could be the basis of Will's decision to take out Francis, Hannibal, and himself to destroy the monsters and contain Hannibal. They could equally be the basis of a decision to free Hannibal, kill Francis, fake a murder-suicide, and hit the road -- IF Will believes his love and goodness could contain/restrain Hannibal and his own darkness. The key deciding factor is Will's state of mind and I for one have no clue what he's actually thinking at any point starting with his meeting with Francis. I mean, we know who Will is and what he's like and all the warring impulses within him. But seriously, nearly every single line he says to Bedelia and Hannibal for the rest of the episode is totally cryptic and open to multiple interpretations. We know for a fact that he's completely hosing Jack and Alana, so why couldn't he also be hosing us? Because we don't want him to; we want him to be Nice Will who does right thing, not Complicated Will who does most of the right things and might try to resolve his duality-conflicts in something other than the obvious, fatal way.

There's zero sign on the cliff-edge that anything hinky or premeditated is going on (the emotion is obviously genuine on both sides -- "It's beautiful" is like the clearest, most heartfelt thing Will has said since the early part of the episode). But if there were a performance going on, it would have to not look hinky. The only weird bit I keep coming back to is that as he helps Will stand, Hannibal backs up a bit toward the bluff edge. He even turns and looks over his shoulder to see how close they are to the edge. Can he seriously be so blissed out on a cloud of little puffy hearts that he actually does not register how perilous that is, or just not care? I mean, one of his Top Five Will Turn-Ons is "Will's unpredictable and often tries to kill me." Maybe Hannibal's actually willing to let this happen as long as they're together, and sacrifice himself for Will's need to find peace? Ye gods. Considering Hannibal's fundamental nature, that would be a pretty epic gesture of devotion.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:00 AM on September 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


You people are the reason that this happened to me yesterday.
posted by Stacey at 11:01 AM on September 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


Regardless of the finale, I also love the series- wide mirroring:

S1--S2
--Hannibal maneuvers Will into prison
--Hannibal visits and taunts Will
--Will strikes out at Hannibal from prison via Matthew Brown
--Hannibal springs Will from prison
--They resume their dance and dance right off a cliff (Mizumono)

S3x7 --13
--Will maneuvers Hannibal into prison
--Will visits and taunts Hannibal
--Hannibal strikes out at Will (Molly/Walter) from prison via Francis
--Will springs Hannibal from prison
--They resume their dance and dance right off a cliff
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:08 AM on September 9, 2015 [5 favorites]


Someone stated on Tumblr - and I haven't gone back to check if this is true - that Will is never shown reaching out and touching Molly even once. She touches him but he never reciprocates. And off the top of my head, I couldn't remember a counter-example.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:42 AM on September 9, 2015


If I could stand to watch any earlier S3 episodes without wanting to die, I'd check!
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:46 AM on September 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


I still regret Molly not getting a more fleshed-out story. It was smart of Fuller to find an actress who had already worked with HD because they had to find that chemistry really really quickly, and even so I'm only left with a vague idea about what her life with Will may have looked like. The contrast between her urging Will to step back into the FBI role and also supposedly knowing most of what happened to him with Hannibal doesn't work for me (in a Doyleist way).
posted by PussKillian at 11:50 AM on September 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


I'm planning to start my "rewatch first half of S3, try to figure out the timeline so I can write the damn Margot/Alana thing in my head" this evening. Not sure how far into it I'll get before I either run out of time to monopolize the TV or become a sobbing disaster, but I'll keep an eye out for any Molly interaction.
posted by Stacey at 11:50 AM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I know; I'm with showbiz_liz that if an S4 (or equivalent) ever emerges, I'd like Molly to be in it a bit.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:51 AM on September 9, 2015


A few days ago, I watched Dolce on the MORONIC LUNATIC premise that it might make me feel better by hearkening back to a gentler (if skull-sawing) time when H&W and this show were still with us. WTF, Fellini? Friends, learn from my mistake and don't do this.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:55 AM on September 9, 2015


Filthy fic seekers, did we cover "The Way A Knife Loves A Heart" yet? Because this is so depressingly well written I want to give up on mine right now.
posted by Stacey at 3:18 PM on September 9, 2015 [6 favorites]


I think if we get S4 it will only feature Molly in ways that are likely to be very doubleplus ungood for Molly. Taking the first three novels as an intended trilogy, the theme of which is transformation, the natural climax for it is for somebody to Become. Red Dragon is about Dolarhide's Becoming, but his Becoming also destroys him. SOTL is about Gumb not bothering to Become, which bores Lecter and is why Lecter casually feeds him to Starling. Book 3 thematically needs to be about someone successfully Becoming. I think the original plan was for this to be a third detective character, but the whole world wanted another Clarice story so I think Harris threw his hands in the air and said OK suckers, you want a Clarice story here it comes.

But the series finishes with Will Becoming, which is actually a proper thematic capstone for the original book series too. This strongly suggests S4 will be the epilogue of Hannibal with Hannigram living it up some exotic foreign location, probably Europe instead of South America for practical reasons. I think this is so thematically perfect that I can't imagine Fuller not at least using it as a starting point.

And that would mean that Molly being on the show would mean Hannigram in her life, which is Probably Not A Good Thing at this point. Although I wouldn't put it past Jack to try to use her as bait...
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:56 PM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


while that fic IS ...rather OFFENSIVELY WELL WRITTEN, It's still about an eariler version of Will and Hannibal, one that hasn't gone over the bluff. So even more post S3 are needed

(I am not above lifting techniques although this might be the first time I'm tempted to lift a technique from a fic)
posted by The Whelk at 5:13 PM on September 9, 2015


Don't get me wrong, I'm not stopping. Tomorrow's installment is ready to go and I think I figured out how to fix Friday's. I'm just depressed that they're nowhere near that well written. But probably that just means I should practice more. I'm rusty.
posted by Stacey at 5:36 PM on September 9, 2015


Yeah I'm using this as an excuse to write fiction again, ficcy training wheels
posted by The Whelk at 5:37 PM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


And that would mean that Molly being on the show would mean Hannigram in her life.

Not necessarily, or directly. Heck, even in just an early episode or two, fake funeral? or something? so there's a sense that this shit has an impact on her. But I guess letting her not die in S3 (they considered letting Francis kill her at the house) AND save her own life is about as much as we can expect out of Fuller.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:38 PM on September 9, 2015


It's key to Molly's character that she barely brushes against this world and doesn't belong in it, I think. I'm not expecting to see her again.

if Hannibal was open to letting will kill him, whoa nellie. that is some character development.
posted by tel3path at 6:04 PM on September 9, 2015 [2 favorites]


also, I recommend Knife and Fork and its sequel by disenchanted
posted by tel3path at 6:05 PM on September 9, 2015


If Hannibal was open to letting will kill him, whoa nellie. that is some character development.

I have no real idea what he's doing there; it's just weird. But if you look at the scene, he clearly checks his/their position as he helps Will up, which is a natural thing to do when you know you're near a sheer drop, especially if you are a jungle cat like Hanni.

So is Hannibal:
a. willing to stand there precariously and let, er, the chips fall, live or die?
b. so besotted he's just not paying attention to where they are and be a bit cautious? Shit, forget pushing; they could trip or stumble.
c. so blown away by Will actually reaching out and initiating an embrace that he, like, forgets Will may still sort of want to kill him and that Will said some vaguely suicidal shit 5 minutes before?
d. so vain and suddenly dim about Will that he thinks all the murderous-suicidal impulses just went away because of the sexy murder-coupling?
e. subtly cooperating with Will to maneuver themselves into the spot they need to be at for whatever fake-out thing they're doing?
f. played by a bad actor? [I think we can eliminate this one.]
g. victim of one brief badly chosen shot by his actor's showrunner-editor?
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:32 PM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm rewatching some episodes and then scanning fanfare threads for them and it's hilarious, highly recommended for the whole "but of course Will won't actually do that..." It's like Bryan Fuller made a wish list of everyone's he wouldn't, surely he wouldn't... Also The Whelk, there was a time when you were not consumed by cannibals but only mildly engrossed! It was a time of distant and shadowy pasts.

I would think an episode of Molly and Walter recovering, of everyone in recovery post-murderhusbands in S4, and an exploration of daily life, of being after becoming, what happens after the child is born after the wedding, after the funeral? What happens in the day to day when you are not human and for Will, when the person you're connected and bound closest to, isn't entirely human by choice?

Also I want a scene where Bedelia and Chiyo have afternoon tea quietly on a pale autumn day in Lithuania. Neither talking much. And at some point, Will and his pack of like fifteen hunting dogs tramp through covered in leaves and blood and Chiyo sighs and Bedelia raises an eyebrow and picks up another Italian Vogue issue to browse.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 7:31 PM on September 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


I have been swallowed whole and now I'm redecorating
posted by The Whelk at 7:42 PM on September 9, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm so sorry but I'm just adding random things to the Murder Husbands Honeymoon Mix. Here comes Bed of Lies, and next is Who Let The Dogs Out and oh god, stop me stop me, no-one can stop me.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 9:19 PM on September 9, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh oh oh oh, this fic explains EVERYTHING and is wondrously well written: A Great and Gruesome Height. No filth, yet, but lots of . . . smoulder, so here's hoping.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:09 PM on September 9, 2015 [3 favorites]


(there are five new chapters now beyond what I had read, so the filth may have arrived. Fair warning, is all.)
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:24 PM on September 9, 2015


But I may have to go with Chapters 1-7 as total headcanon for now. They make perfect sense.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:28 PM on September 9, 2015


I just read another interview with BF - and I've lost it - with him saying that Alana is unlike the others, because she's an innocent who wandered into their world and has found her way back to an innocent life.

That really bugs the heck out of me, because if that's really what they meant, then the whole reason Alana was the way she was for two seasons, was because she was simply too stupid. (Being too pure and innocent to be able to think thoughts bad enough to understand what was happening around her functionally equates to being stupid, given that she was an FBI forensic profiler.) Admittedly, this season, they did shore up the idea that she was not intellectually up to par. But she was pretty on the ball with Hannibal's incarceration, and it's no failure of Alana's security protocols that led to the breach with Dolarhyde

I mean, if Alana was an innocent who just accidentally happened to wander into the BAU after just falling into forensic profiling like a chick-lit ingenue into a mud puddle, whoops how charmingly hapless! then what was Will supposed to be guilty of at the start of the story? Thinking bad thoughts? That idea bothers the heck out of me, too.

If they're going to say that everything Alana did was done purely and innocently, and she is now retreating to a pure and innocent life with the wife whose brother she helped to kill, and the child she gave birth to by sexually assaulting said brother in order to inherit the family fortune, then what is the point of saying that Will didn't purely and innocently murder Randall Tier and purely and innocently slay the Dragon before purely and innocently flinging himself and Hannibal off a cliff?
posted by tel3path at 3:17 AM on September 10, 2015


New chapter's up. If you think that "Hannibal's memory palace expands at an unprecedented pace" means anything classier than "Hannibal now has an entire section of his brain devoted to Will Graham's sex noises", you are wrong.
posted by Stacey at 3:56 AM on September 10, 2015 [5 favorites]


In more serious discussion, when we do the re-watch, Alana's development is one of the things I want to pay closer attention to. I don't feel like I have a good handle on what happened with her in seasons three, and I'd like to see if I feel differently about her whole arc with the benefit of hindsight.
posted by Stacey at 4:02 AM on September 10, 2015 [2 favorites]


Relevant.
posted by tel3path at 4:04 AM on September 10, 2015


I have zero issues with Alana's development on rematch because she clearly is a fundamentally healthy person, brilliant and loving, who suffered horribly through Hannibal's interactions in her life and rebuilt her world through marriage and a family with Margot, a woman who is the survivor of terrible childhood abuse and still also capable of love - Margot failed to kill her brother the first time because she loved her brother. She's one of the other basically healthy people in the show, a survivor of terrible things, but not someone already mentally ill/different (like Bedelia or possibly Abigail) who was further abused.

Will - even if Will had never been in the FBI, Will wasn't going to be a normal person. He's a teacher, but it's clear that he's just a regular teacher while Alana's already academically outstripped him and speaks with authority. She's admired professional and speaks with authority to Chilton and Jack, and she's got that confidence that comes of being someone who has achieved professional success from both skill and hard work, and who has support. She's not afraid in the first two seasons. She's not afraid of herself, her own judgement, of being loveable, of her own worth or value as a human, of the world - she walks through the shadows and nightmares because she sees them but they're flat to her, behind a wall of safety-glass by her own sense of security.

Will and Hannibal and Abigail and Bedelia know that people you love can turn around and slice slivers of skin off your flesh and eat them, lock you in a cellar and set you on fire and lie to you and that no-one will believe you, and that the monsters are real, and that you will eat with them until blood runs down your chin.

It's heartbreaking to see Alana's world shatter. She just withers at some point in season two.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 4:51 AM on September 10, 2015 [2 favorites]


He's a teacher, but it's clear that he's just a regular teacher

He has an exceptional publication record and a stellar reputation. Beverly is a little starstruck on meeting him: "You're Will Graham!" Will doesn't play these things up because he doesn't actually want to be a teacher - he wants to be in the field.
posted by tel3path at 5:28 AM on September 10, 2015


Will and Hannibal and Abigail and Bedelia know that people you love can turn around and slice slivers of skin off your flesh and eat them, lock you in a cellar and set you on fire and lie to you and that no-one will believe you, and that the monsters are real, and that you will eat with them until blood runs down your chin.

Is it more fundamentally healthy to know this, or to be the loved one who slices slivers of skin off your flesh and eats them in the security of their own ignorance?

It kind of brings me back to the objection I heard floating around, that Alana shouldn't get together with Margot because Margot is "fucked up" and Alana's slogan of life is not to get involved with fucked-up people. Or maybe Alana thinks that she is no longer respectable or marriageable because bad experience has defiled her virginity and she is now fucked-up too?

That's a troubling viewpoint and I'm not sure the show isn't promulgating it. To my mind, Alana's mental health improved by leaps and bounds when she showed that - unlike some of the fandom - she didn't think she was too holy (holy is just a synonym for wholesome, healthy, remember) to be with someone like Margot.

Up until the very end of season 3 I would describe Alana as being very incapable of loving, since her motto was "don't let him get too close", which really meant "don't let me get too close".
posted by tel3path at 5:37 AM on September 10, 2015


I swear, some of these post-finale (and other) fanfic authors are so mind-bleedingly good that I wouldn't be surprised if this fucking show turns out to be the Velvet Underground of creative writing.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:47 AM on September 10, 2015 [5 favorites]


Oh my gosh, fic has provided the answer to a nagging issue about the Fakeout Scenario: if H&W are in cahoots, why in god's name would they plan to voluntarily go off the bluff rather than just, you know, drive away?

Because all police cars have GPS, and even if you disable it, you're pretty conspicuous until you can grab a different car. Also, Jack knows the general vicinity they are/were in and surely had lots of backup and air support etc. at the ready the whole time. The minute he finds the convoy wreckage (at the latest), every major regional road will be blocked or surveilled. Although we don't know how close the Murder Haus is to the ambush site, it would be extremely risky to flee that scene in a car.

The MH was really the only feasible remote location the guys could lure Francis to with a modicum of control and limited access. Regardless of what else was or wasn't going on between them, they did not just drive there and blithely proceed to turn on the lights and pose sacrificially in front of giant windows like sitting ducks without Hannibal at least working out some sort of management and exit strategy, which suggests the cliff conversation had a practical as well as figurative purpose.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:32 AM on September 10, 2015


Will clearly has a sailboat stashed in a cove at the base of the cliffs.

In interest of sating my cravings, I picked up a cookbook Janice Poon co-authored that centers around hosting parties (!). There's a lovely food, drink, and decoration selection for an intimate party for 2 in the book (!!). Suggested soundtrack for this intimate affair? Massive Attack's Mezzanine.

I am in love. And need to throw a dinner party.
posted by bfranklin at 5:20 PM on September 10, 2015 [6 favorites]


and now I have to buy that book

Fic update!

posted by The Whelk at 5:40 PM on September 10, 2015


Will clearly has a sailboat stashed in a cove at the base of the cliffs.

That would be SO perfect, especially considering his previous sailjaunt to Europe. I just rewatched the scene (it's the featured scene LOL so you don't have to FF through the whole episode) and I'll be damned if it's filmed as if they're going down a hidden rappel line. I know BF has a way to get them out of there alive since he does have plans for S4, but I'd snack on Hannibal's buffet to find out how he plans to pull it off.
posted by Bringer Tom at 5:59 PM on September 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


Omg The Whelk! Hannibal is tripping balls?!?! I love it so much.
posted by fancyoats at 6:00 PM on September 10, 2015


I love it too. I would read a whole series about Hannibal tripping.

I think I finished my thing tonight, although I'll drag out the posting over the next few days. I feel bereft. I want to go back and write more chapters even though they would fuck up my narrative structure.

Someone remind me next time not to get fancy with my narrative structure so if I want to just stick in a whole chapter about Hannibal calling in false tips to the FBI for fun I can do that.
posted by Stacey at 6:22 PM on September 10, 2015 [2 favorites]


Can't wait, Stacey. The latest three chapters were stunning.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:38 PM on September 10, 2015


I would describe Alana as being very incapable of loving, since her motto was "don't let him get too close"

I don't know why you'd say that she was incapable of love in the first couple seasons because she deliberately chooses not to allow herself to be tempted into a relationship with Will in particular any more than that she was incapable of wearing trousers during that same time period because she chose to wear skirts all the time. She's a moral agent the whole time, not the prisoner of a sad set of incapacities. Alana isn't somebody who would fail to understand the Forster line about choosing between betraying his country and betraying his friend - she's just somebody who would disagree about which choice took more guts. She makes many wrong choices and they are all tremendously difficult for her; that's her tragedy - she isn't even somebody who thinks you can tell the right choice by how hard it is, she's just wrong a lot, without being stupid.

I do think it was profoundly unfair of the writers the way they made her right a number of times without allowing her to be right for the right reasons - she was right about Abigail in the very beginning but monstrously unfair in the way she drew those conclusions; she was right about how profoundly unwise it would be to become involved with Will but she had no idea exactly how unwise.

[on a separate note, Jack is the opposite of Alana with Will in that so far from restraining himself from closeness, the first time we see him talk to Will he says some amazingly inappropriate things and PUTS HIS HANDS ALL OVER HIM, not out of any personal desire but out of the calculated and skillful knowledge that doing something scarily socially inappropriate and watching to see if your victim will object or just take it is a good quick way to find out if they are somebody you can push around. That whole scene and the excruciating stiltedness of the dialogue made me think this was a bad show for ages and ages. I feel differently now, as you may imagine, but the first quarter of the first episode is still filled with bewilderingly bad parts. But I do see now, at least, how important it was to establish Will's acceptance of conventional boundary violations and Jack's willingness to offer them out and to talk to Will like a child (and set the tone for Alana to eventually fall in line and follow along). But Will is set up in that first introduction as somebody who is not able to recognize or object to a bully when he sees one, to such an extreme degree that you really can see how Hannibal would think that killing a few people would be genuinely good for him.]

& having watched the first ep again last night, I'm amazed again how Laurence Fishburne is able to do the glasses manoeuvre with such bullying authority but no mean sexual chemistry at all. it's as calculating a test of his reactions as anything Hannibal ever does to him, but the vibe is all controlling dad and not a speck of predatory cannibal.
posted by queenofbithynia at 6:52 PM on September 10, 2015 [4 favorites]


That would be SO perfect, especially considering his previous sailjaunt to Europe. I just rewatched the scene (it's the featured scene LOL so you don't have to FF through the whole episode) and I'll be damned if it's filmed as if they're going down a hidden rappel line.

Interesting possibility. I'm fairly convinced now that if there's an S4/movie, 3x13 will be revealed to be a total misdirection mindfuck, one way or another. We were sort of nudged into seeing everything from Digestivo onward in terms of the same old "Hannibal tries to manipulate poor vulnerable Will into going Full Dark" dynamic, but Ep 8-13 Will seemed already somewhat dark (while still completely himself) and not the least bit victim-y. Whatever went down, it's cool that he chose it.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:11 PM on September 10, 2015


Will clearly has a sailboat stashed in a cove at the base of the cliffs.

Or Hannibal does. This has been his hideaway pad (one of them) for years; would he spend significant chunks of time in a place with only one escape route?
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:21 PM on September 10, 2015


Will is set up in that first introduction as somebody who is not able to recognize or object to a bully when he sees one, to such an extreme degree that you really can see how Hannibal would think that killing a few people would be genuinely good for him.

Haha fuck this is so true and I love it
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:23 PM on September 10, 2015


After surviving the fall Will pulls himself and an unconscious Hannibal onto an outcropping at the base of the cliff, only to look over and see his trans-Atlantic boat Nola sitting docked a few yards away. Will then realizes just exactly who it was who bought the thing through a proxy when he, post-Hannibal-trial and wanting to put his old life behind him, sold it for cheap. Hannibal, you clingy fuck.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:30 PM on September 10, 2015 [6 favorites]


Oh god, of course he would.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:48 PM on September 10, 2015


Hannibal, you clingy fuck.

I can totally buy into that. I just want to know how they made the vertical translation from the top of the cliff to the bottom without becoming Hannipizza.

In the abstract I am pretty happy with >art murder conveys magic powers and >they just killed a fucking dragon, so that probably conveys a lot of magic powers. But the series has never been quite so overt about that however strong the subtext has been. So I really want to see Bryan Fuller's solution to it. Because all the other solutions are just waveforms until Fuller collapses the state vector of the story.
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:49 PM on September 10, 2015 [1 favorite]


I got kind of swept away just now by the revelation that what Will/Hannibal reminds me of so much is Jane Eyre. I don't think there's any possible doubt but what a season four would have had to see some burning and blinding and apparent humbling of Hannibal and Will's sure knowledge that he can't confront and embrace Hannibal's love for him without asserting his place as the dominant partner in the relationship, whether or not that is a role he's after; he must be cruel to Hannibal to make him tolerable to live with, and he is fully capable of doing it because he knows what he wants but he also knows what is right. he is jane eyre to the tips of his fingernails.

( "That I am not Edward Rochester's bride is the least part of my woe," I alleged: "that I have wakened out of most glorious dreams, and found them all void and vain, is a horror I could bear and master; but that I must leave him decidedly, instantly, entirely, is intolerable. I cannot do it."

But, then, a voice within me averred that I could do it and foretold that I should do it. I wrestled with my own resolution: I wanted to be weak that I might avoid the awful passage of further suffering I saw laid out for me; and Conscience, turned tyrant, held Passion by the throat, told her tauntingly, she had yet but dipped her dainty foot in the slough, and swore that with that arm of iron he would thrust her down to unsounded depths of agony.

"Let me be torn away," then I cried. "Let another help me!"

"No; you shall tear yourself away, none shall help you: you shall yourself pluck out your right eye; yourself cut off your right hand: your heart shall be the victim, and you the priest to transfix it."


reader, I took him in my arms and fell off the cliff
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:22 PM on September 10, 2015 [8 favorites]


Here's a nice review I didn't see before - sorry if it was posted earlier and I didn't notice.

Hannibal: The TV show that went too far. The US TV series based on Thomas Harris’s novels about the cannibalistic psychiatrist was among the most acclaimed by critics in years. So why didn’t you watch it?
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:40 PM on September 10, 2015




There's a reason I felt the need to add "codependent like whoa" to my fic tags
posted by The Whelk at 9:11 PM on September 10, 2015


I finally got this stupid Digestivo fanfic posted. Here it is: The Road to Wolf Trap.

I have no idea how my 1,000 word short missing scene fic got to be nearly 6000 words, but I'm glad I got this out of the way so I can focus on my post season 3 story. Although maybe I should just stick with Sherlock fanfic. I feel like I have a much better grasp of the Sherlock characters' voices.
posted by litera scripta manet at 9:14 PM on September 10, 2015 [4 favorites]


"I don't know why you'd say that she was incapable of love in the first couple seasons because she deliberately chooses not to allow herself to be tempted into a relationship with Will in particular any more than that she was incapable of wearing trousers during that same time period because she chose to wear skirts all the time."

That's not why I think she was incapable of loving. I think she was completely right that she shouldn't be in a relationship with Will. That has nothing to do with it. It's because of the way she regarded other people's subjectivity, and the difficulty of getting her to pay attention to anything outside herself.

But then I'm in a minority in that I never thought Alana was badly written, I always thought she was the most true-to-life character. I don't think anything about the way she's written is an accident. Gideon tells her in the middle of S2 that she's "a flower blossoming amongst weeds", meaning that she was intentionally written as someone who would start off promising and become disappointing over the first two seasons. This is exactly what we don't expect from a TV character, especially not a female TV character, and I consistently hear about how this or that aspect of Alana's characterization is "badly written" to explain everything people don't like about her. She's not [fill in the blank], she's just written that way. I don't think I've ever seen a character written and acted as well as Alana.
posted by tel3path at 11:24 PM on September 10, 2015 [3 favorites]


I absolutely don't think Alana's written badly, just cruelly. I don't know what there is in her character that should make her, more than another, suffer the consequences of her bad actions. But unfairness in life is not unrealistic.
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:17 AM on September 11, 2015


Sorry - a last Jane Eyre thought - you know when Rochester's all in a frenzy cause he WANTS to rip her body apart because she won't give in, but "If I tear, if I rend the slight prison, my outrage will only let the captive loose. Conqueror I might be of the house; but the inmate would escape to heaven before I could call myself possessor of its clay dwelling- place." UGH it is so frustrating when they die just as soon as you murder them a little,you got to remember to corrupt them first, murder them second, that way you get the soul AND the body

plus also, when Jane says I must part with you for my whole life, he just refuses to entertain that crazy talk for a moment, you only give importance to that kind of nonsense by pretending to take it seriously: "I pass over the madness about parting from me. You mean you must become a part of me." Here is a man who understands that OBVIOUSLY sometimes you have to eat somebody you care about, how else do you keep them from ever leaving you

(What does Rochester do when disillusioned by human relations? " I sought the Continent, and went devious through all its lands," is what)
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:25 AM on September 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


I love this Jane Eyre comparison more than life itself but I can't get rid of the notion of Hannibal calling Will any of Rochester's ridiculous pet names, "pale elf" or whatever, and Will just straight-up stabbing him because FOR FUCK'S SAKE, HANNIBAL.
posted by Stacey at 7:51 AM on September 11, 2015 [5 favorites]


I feel like they have a really well-stocked first aid kit. Like there might be a lot of just casual stabbing. It's basically the only way to shut Hannibal the hell up when he gets that way.
posted by Stacey at 7:54 AM on September 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


I have to let the parallel go at some point because Rochester is a inexcusable tool of such monumental proportions and Hannibal is just a selfish monster, for whom allowances can be made.

But they do share this complete incomprehension of the fact that their love object might want what they want them to want, come to know and accept their own dark desires completely, and still say No because it's wrong (Jane, as quoted above, has the savvy to heavily eroticize the brutal unmerciful dominance of Conscience over Passion, which probably helps a lot in letting her just make a choice already. somebody should suggest that to Will as a coping mechanism)
posted by queenofbithynia at 8:18 AM on September 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


I can't get rid of the notion of Hannibal calling Will any of Rochester's ridiculous pet names, "pale elf" or whatever, and Will just straight-up stabbing him because FOR FUCK'S SAKE, HANNIBAL.

Ha ha ha. There's a funny thing in one fic about how Will sort of rolls his eyes even at being called "dear boy" since he's, you know, about 40.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:29 AM on September 11, 2015


Hannibal hits that note hard, with him and Francis both - this is a shy boy, our shy boy, what a clever boy you are, Will, again and again. he gets a serious kick out of it. I am sure he thinks he is far above any debasing human things such as early conditioning leading to mildly silly fixations, but it's clearly one of those little things that does something for him.
posted by queenofbithynia at 10:57 AM on September 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


We've also talked about how in the first season, everyone treats Will like he's some problem child they have to deal with and not a respected published academic and professor in his 40s.
posted by The Whelk at 11:39 AM on September 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oh gosh, tripped over this adorable pic of Hettienne Park and her kid. Ou est le sass d'antan?
posted by FelliniBlank at 1:26 PM on September 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


well to be fair I think many who have to deal with respected professional men in their 40s both in and out of academia have good reason to think of them as problem children we have to deal with, it's just we are too prudent to allow it to show. but out of practicality, not respect. It shocks me more that they treat an ex-cop that way. (he was still an ex-cop on the show, pre-FBI consulting? I think I had that in my mind as a known thing before I read the first three books and tainted my perfect purity. although the show is so intensely anti-backstory I'm not certain I'm right. He could not possibly have been like that back in his cop days.)

(re: the anti-backstory ethos of the show - no main character gets a fleshed-out childhood trauma origin story except the Vergers, do they? Excising Francis's is the only bad choice I think the third season made, but I sort of see it, it's such a mission statement kind of thing for the show that it seems to be to be another way everyone ends up as a mirror of Hannibal, no excuses or extenuating circumstances permitted to them (I mean Hannibal's thing about how nothing happened to him, he happened, which is the most transparent bit of self mythologizing since anything ever, he is as hung up on being the sane self-made one as Francis is on the Dragon.

and yet he only wants to consort most intimately with the psychopaths he nurtures and molds, he is just setting himself up for tragic intergenerational conflict. he built his own murder empire so he could share it with a chosen one, but then the chosen ones never know what it is to build and strive and never know where your next murder's coming from. like Hannibal has all this aristocratic privilege when it comes to money and taste but as far as murdering psychopathy goes, he might as well be the scholarship pupil whose kids are legacy admissions, it's a classic internal conflict - are you proud of what you gave them or do you resent them for getting it so easy)

(I have not read Hannibal Rising yet but is it revealed that young Hannibal had his own Murder Mentor that he later ate and clipped out of his personal memory banks to better suit his self-conceit? I know people hate that book and that seems like a revelation people would hate, but is pretty obviously a thing that happened to the Hannibal of the show. I am envisioning someone thinking to take him on as a project the way he takes on Abigail, not realizing the project is already well underway.

I mean it's not all and only vanity, Hannibal is also committed to a psychopathy aesthetic that values sprezzatura; he would find it crass to have a traumatic backstory motivating a murder the way he would find it unpleasant to see a ballet dancer visibly sweating or bleeding. I can respect that. )
posted by queenofbithynia at 5:48 PM on September 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


So I have no actual creative talents, but as a small thanks for all the lovely fics you have written and recommended, and the many excellent threads, here's a Hannigram Mixtape.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:46 PM on September 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


I love it. You give lovely presents. Much better than an ear in an envelope.
posted by Stacey at 6:25 AM on September 12, 2015


(he was still an ex-cop on the show, pre-FBI consulting? I think I had that in my mind as a known thing before I read the first three books and tainted my perfect purity. although the show is so intensely anti-backstory I'm not certain I'm right. He could not possibly have been like that back in his cop days.)

In the second or third episode of season one (binge-re-watching, introducing my SO to Hannibal!) Will tells Jack he used to be Homicide. To which Jack retorts something to the effect of 'Yeah, but you couldn't pull the trigger and so you're not Homicide anymore.'
posted by carsonb at 7:11 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Presumably Baltimore Homicide? Which, uh, talk about a fantastic slash idea: Wilgram/McNutty!
posted by carsonb at 7:14 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


And by 'fantastic' I mean 'potentially regrettably unfortunate.'
posted by carsonb at 7:14 AM on September 12, 2015


Book wise he's supposed to be ex NOPD right? Before he got stabbed cause he couldn't pull the trigger in time? (Hilarious an NOPD cop who can't shoot someone and ask questions later, no wonder he didn't survive.) I imagine young cop Will was one of those those very over serious studious types -- Exeley in L.A Confidental type. (Wait if he is ex NOPD I can use that...)
posted by The Whelk at 8:31 AM on September 12, 2015 [4 favorites]


Yeah, he was a cop in the show as well as the book. I think the idea was, his empathy made him a great investigator but also made it too hard for him to shoot when asked to.

Killing GJH did a number on him not just because he was a regular guy who'd never killed before, but because his disorder made him feel like he was experiencing it as both killer and victim, over and over.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


(Important to remember, as we note that Hannibal's behavior maps to no known real-world disorders, that Will's whole deal is also basically just made up)
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:53 AM on September 12, 2015


I have power over ausdemfenster's Kindle so thanks for all the fic recs (and writing!), everybody!
posted by mountmccabe at 9:40 AM on September 12, 2015


Everyone please keep figuring out TV!Will's backstory, please. I think I figured out my next long story-thing in very broad outline this morning and it's gonna require backstory. Also better plotting skills than I possess, so I might go have to write some short cracky stuff for a while and let that percolate.
posted by Stacey at 9:46 AM on September 12, 2015


I love it. You give lovely presents. Much better than an ear in an envelope.

De nada. Theme tapes were my fave hobby since the days of, you know, actual tapes. It's fun -- like making a quilt out of apt sounds and lyrics.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:51 AM on September 12, 2015


Say, has Will ever actually physically struck Hannibal? I think he might not have, which all things considered is pretty insane.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:14 AM on September 12, 2015


[searching memory] I don't think either of them has hit the other, but I'm probably forgetting something.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:18 AM on September 12, 2015


He's pointed a gun at him once, which did nothing but give Hannibal the weirdest boner.

He would've stabbed Hannibal in the face if that meddling Chiyoh hadn't stopped him
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


She's talking specifically about hitting, punching, etc. I think.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:22 AM on September 12, 2015


I only specified striking because I was pretty sure already that he'd never managed to shoot or cut him or whatever.

Man, not even once huh? And even his latest attempted murder was in the form of a hug.

When Will finally hauls off and breaks Hannibal's nose, the catharsis will be unbelievable.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:29 AM on September 12, 2015 [3 favorites]


Oh, that Dark Dark Super Dark Will. Hugging people to death. BRB, I have to go write a story where Will just keeps trying and failing to kill Hannibal adorably. Death By Licking Dogs. Death By Poorly Seasoned Fish. Death By Sunburn From Sailing Too Long. Death By Big Sad Puppy Eyes. Death By Beard Burn.

Will is Professor Chaos.
posted by Stacey at 10:58 AM on September 12, 2015 [7 favorites]


BRB, I have to go write a story where Will just keeps trying and failing to kill Hannibal adorably.

Not until after you finish Chapter 10, young lady! I'm all on tenterhooks.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:28 AM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


I don't know what there is in her character that should make her, more than another, suffer the consequences of her bad actions. But unfairness in life is not unrealistic.

She suffers some of the consequences of her actions, when she watched Hannibal grooming her (helpless, teenage) patient - for whom she had formal responsibility - and chose not to put two and two together because her relationship with another powerful adult was more important. That same patient later threw her through a window. That was the *first* time the consequences for Alana's bad actions landed on her, instead of rolling downhill. I don't like that that was what it took for Alana to learn responsibility, but she did learn.

She was emotionally deeply hurt, but so were the others. Compared to basically all the other characters, Alana got off lightly. She wasn't accused of multiple murders, didn't go to jail, wasn't forced to choose between the death penalty and life imprisonment, wasn't labelled insane or mentally incompetent, didn't lose professional status, didn't have her medical condition used against her, wasn't shunned by her peers, didn't lose any limbs or organs, wasn't blackmailed and held in a gilded cage as a serial killer's apprentice, wasn't sequestered for two years and used as a lab rat for psychiatric torture techniques, wasn't encouraged to kill herself and then brought back to life for the lulz, wasn't shot, wasn't facially disfigured, didn't find corpses on her property, and on and on.

By the second half of season two, Alana is happily married with a child, and has more wealth and personal power than ever before. Alana's always been exceptional at playing her hand. If it's unfair, it's unfair in her favour - but I'm fine with that, now, because she's taken on all the responsibility that goes with this power and she faces up to it without complaint or self-pity.
posted by tel3path at 12:14 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Stacey, I'm saving your story so I can have one more moment with Hannigram. Any time soon, I'm going to crack.
posted by tel3path at 12:16 PM on September 12, 2015


So I happened to glance at Fuller's 8/29 Variety interview again while reading stuff about American Gods. And I didn't really attend to this the first time:
And essentially it is, and that’s sort of the conclusion Will comes to at the end, “I can’t live with him, I can’t live without him. This is the scenario where the least amount of people can die,” meaning, “the two of us" . . . . And as he said to Hannibal earlier, “I may not be able to save myself, and that’s just fine.” I feel like we were very honest with the audience in terms of saying exactly what Will does at the end — we said it a few times.
Sure, Bryan, just like you gave us multiple clear indications in S1-2 to show that Abigail had been killed and eaten by Hannibal. Whoops, except for a few tiny things you chose not to reveal until later. Not buying it this time, pal, especially when you flog it so hard in the press.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:30 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


BF is a trickster and you can't take everything he says at face value.
posted by tel3path at 3:14 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Of course, all that could be 100% true from Will's point of view. How was he to know Chiyoh had put a gorram trampoline under there.
posted by tel3path at 3:15 PM on September 12, 2015 [2 favorites]




He does really seem to be actively trolling at least half the time. Heck, in that same interview he's still selling the "they're in love AS FRIENDS" line that he then immediately started contradicting in great detail in the next 2 weeks. Like, dude, OK, I get that a certain audience sector is uncomfortable with this content, and we all realize that Will's feelings are . . . complicated, conflicted, and somewhat unmoored. But it still kills me that anybody who has seen every episode from 1x12 to 3x13, including Fuller apparently at times, could seriously think Hannibal is not passionately in love in every possible sense, like a Scorpio on 'ludes.

When Bryan started talking about "with a six-pack who knows what would happen" and "sexual fluidity," that made it sound as if they're definitely thinking exclusively in terms of a feature or Starz mini-season since they would not have to put up with the bourgeois moral dignity pants of broadcast TV. Starz is pretty game for anything.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:31 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Fic update - in which Will has a send a dick pic to catch a killer

Yay, the chapter opening was especially purty. It's so nice to have something to use my tablet for other than taking notes at tedious meetings.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:41 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


Jesus Christ, these post-finale people and their gorgeous writing: Now That We Are One.
posted by FelliniBlank at 11:32 PM on September 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


I finished writing the thing.

And then I couldn't sleep so I started writing a new thing which was not at all my planned new thing but a totally different third thing.

Don't mind me, I'm pretty sure writing 15,000 words of Cannibal and Empath shipper trash in a week is a totally normal part of the TV cancellation grieving process.
posted by Stacey at 4:03 AM on September 13, 2015 [8 favorites]


Two things! i'm saving two things! Thank you Stacey
posted by tel3path at 4:06 AM on September 13, 2015


Don't mind me, I'm pretty sure writing 15,000 words of Cannibal and Empath shipper trash in a week is a totally normal part of the TV cancellation grieving process.

I'm pretty sure it is for this show, at least for thousands upon thousands of viewers, and most of the rest of us are avidly reading it as a means of clambering out of the pit of despair (and just because it's wonderful, funny, resonant writing). God, there's a Season 1 AU where, when Will moves in with Hannibal, he builds the dogs an air-conditioned guest house: "Your dogs are my dogs, and my dogs do not live in squalor." How can you not enjoy that?

Love the coda! -- such a beautifully composed story in every respect, so true to the characters, and such a pleasure to read. I subscribed to the new one word unread.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:01 AM on September 13, 2015


It's really fun to see all the different flavors and permutations of "what really happened?" and "what happens after?" in the post-finale fics and how it all affects the psychological/emotional states of the characters and who they are together. The only constants seem to be 1) they go somewhere WARM and not eternal-winter for a change, ha, and 2) while the slaying of Francis was a consummation, it's the moments after and the fall that were the Becoming. Which helps me articulate for myself why 3x13 works great as a season finale but not a series ending. Since we know they survive, it's a beginning, and it would have to be one way or another because two people who are that close (and that sensitive to life in general) can't live through something like that together and not be somehow changed. Not that it wipes the slate clean or makes you different people, but as Bringer Tom said way upthread, new attitude.

I think if there's ever a new show installment and Bryan has one of 'em drugged and held captive by the other or something similar, it'll feel like he kind of got it wrong or dialed them back to an implausibly pre-lapsarian state. The only way that works is if they didn't actually fall off the cliff at all. Even if they fell as part of an escape plan; it's still a death-and-rebirth.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:24 AM on September 13, 2015


Watching this show is more than watching this show. It's being a kid again, playing a game and deciding on the plot together.

There's a British cartoon called The Perishers and I've been trying to find an individual strip where they're all playing a game this way: "an' zap, I pull the switch wot..." "An' I enslave all the men in the world an'..." "An' I melt this mountain an'..." With the dog, Wellington, looking on and remarking via a thought-bubble that they never actually get around to playing the game, they spend all their time deciding the plot.

It's as if we're the Perishers, and the game we're playing is Hannibal the next day in the school playground, and then Bryan Fuller hears us out and comes up with a plot beyond our wildest dreams. We must all have been influencing each other since post-s1 given that the showrunner and cast are so openly approving of the fanworks. I mean on what other show is a lead actress going to tweet that she just can't get enough of the fanfic, and the lead actor going to cheerfully say he's only read the smut?!?

Anyway, here are the Perishers. There's no doubt that Hannibal is Fiscal Yere, that Will Graham and Winston map to Wellington and Boot, and Jack and Alana - who for the first two seasons were arguably the same character distributed over two people - are distributed equally over Maisie and Marlon with each of Jack and Alana mapping to both the cartoon characters at once. I think Baby Grumpling stands in pretty well for Team Sassy Science.
posted by tel3path at 11:41 AM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Rewatching S1E7, and we have definitely seen the ceiling in the stinger before.
posted by carsonb at 12:26 PM on September 13, 2015


(I did some edits on the last fic chapter to remove some chewy, adverby heavy text, working on getting 7 out tonight so I can take a break and , like the show, go from being procedural to being balls out weird)
posted by The Whelk at 1:07 PM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Right, I wrote a chapter. As I say in the notes, I have really never written fanfic before, so if you read it I'd appreciate a few words about it.

There is definitely at least one more chapter to this in my head, which from this thread I gather means I will be writing like 100,000 words of this thing
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:57 PM on September 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


The Dinner Party Show is having Bryan on to discuss the finale. Live broadcast is 8PM Eastern. Will try to remember to link it when the recording's up.
posted by sparkletone at 3:59 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I adore it, Liz. Write the next 100,000 words, please!
posted by Stacey at 4:24 PM on September 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


Showbiz_liz, that is fantastic, truly. I want more chapters.
posted by fancyoats at 4:25 PM on September 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


That was a tense scene, and that stinger line is perfect, good work!
posted by The Whelk at 4:51 PM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Liz, that's fantastic, every bit of it. Jesus Christ, for months I have been sitting here all unawares in a nest of vipers writers.

And OMG, "Surrender, he was saying. You want me to stop fighting you? Stop fighting me." YESYESYESYEYESYESYES. I rewatched the end of Digestivo recently [sob], and the whole "there can be no decisive victory; we're a zero-sum game" thing just made me insane because it's so fucking wrong; they're so wrong to think that.

These MEN, with their stupid competitive binary thinking! "Either I 'become Hannibal' or I stay myself." "Either I kill him, or I go dark." "Either Will embraces who I want him to be, or I have to eliminate him." "Either he delights in wickedness, or he berates it." But it doesn't have to be a zero-sum game if you stop beating up each other and yourselves. You don't have to be like each other to be with each other, you knuckleheads.

Thank you so much for making them realize that! And for letting Will show his strength. He really has had a lot of the interpersonal power since Mizumono, when you think about it, and he increasingly realized that in 3x8-13, though not as much as he does here.
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:03 PM on September 13, 2015


oh my god
posted by tel3path at 5:10 PM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Nothing too much new in the Dinner Party questions and such. He gave some super tentative dates regarding American Gods shooting and premiere but I was getting a glass of water and couldn't quite make them out. Also, Bryan ditched the beard.

Also, you kids with your fanfics and 1200 comments and what not should maybe find a way to put together a ~our show is dead and yet we are still thinking about it kind of a lot~ post for the Blue maybe?
posted by sparkletone at 6:00 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


Why? So random people who don't give a shit about the show can mock us?
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:04 PM on September 13, 2015


Obviously.
posted by sparkletone at 6:10 PM on September 13, 2015


Ha, I mean I think possibly the whole fuss around the cancellation might merit a general interest post, but oh please don't let's post our home-grown gay cannibal porn on the blue, because I just realized how that SOUNDS you know?
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:12 PM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


You don't have to be like each other to be with each other, you knuckleheads.

Hmm, actually, having dumped an otherwise compatible guy for being too politically conservative, I can kind of see where the two of them are coming from
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:17 PM on September 13, 2015


Well, some things are dealbreakers.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:19 PM on September 13, 2015


I will say that I have noted a couple of MeFi names giving out kudos who are not actually posting on this thread. Thank you for the nice feedback, lurking cannibal porn aficionados! I hope you enjoy tomorrow's "Hannibal way overdoes the painkillers" chapter.
posted by Stacey at 6:27 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


I imagine myself retreating into my Threatening Chic home as it grows dustier and dustier, wearing my tweed tartan blazer til it becomes tattered - what do you mean the show ended? The premire is next week, how silly....
posted by The Whelk at 6:54 PM on September 13, 2015 [3 favorites]


(Isn't it funny how that one fanfare thread turned into a cult so gradually we didn't even notice?)
posted by The Whelk at 6:57 PM on September 13, 2015 [7 favorites]


It's nice to hear Fuller say "we have a few tricks up our sleeves" and "hey, we gotta keep trying" aloud as well as reiterating that Will and Hannibal survive S3. So many people in and near the ent. industry genuinely love this show (including its champions at NBC, who did all they could) that someone somewhere has to have the juice to make it happen.

If they get a shorter season or feature, they'd be better able to afford locations, and oh, they are going to need glossy, balmy locations for S4.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:01 PM on September 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


STACEY I finally read your fic and... it is awesome, like really awesome.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:07 PM on September 13, 2015 [2 favorites]


Thank you! I am blush-y.

Also my Funko POP Will Graham arrived today and I certainly did not pet him and promise him that his murder husband is back ordered and will be here with him soon. If you hear that I did then someone is lying to you.
posted by Stacey at 3:12 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


(Isn't it funny how that one fanfare thread turned into a cult so gradually we didn't even notice?)

That way, it can gently transition into a thread for Dancy's new show.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:13 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


I just spent the entirely of yesterday absolutely riveted by this harrowing S2 AU, written during the first hiatus, He Who Pours Out Vengeance. It's gen fic (well, only in the way that the show is, which is to say, full of terrible, poisonous subterranean passions but no actual Hannigram boning) and if you like any of the following, you will probably like this: a) Nobody helping Will Graham, b) Bev being kickass, c) Chilton being the worst, d) Hannibal being the absolute fucking worst oh my GOD, e) Barney, f) Eerily prescient AUs. Ugh, so good.
posted by merriment at 7:39 AM on September 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


Duly bookmarked for lunchtime reading. I miss Bev terribly.
posted by Stacey at 7:56 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


(I'm slightly behind on my word count goals only cause I had to rewrite a bit where I could SUBTLY REFERENCE WONDERFALLS and have it make sense to the character yessss.)
posted by The Whelk at 8:44 AM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


About AUs, since I was a lit major specializing in Anglo-American modernism, I make no apology whatsoever for utterly loving the fuck out of this: 1921.

With handwritten letters even!
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:02 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also my Funko POP Will Graham arrived today and I certainly did not pet him and promise him that his murder husband is back ordered and will be here with him soon.

That's good to hear. I was typity-typing all professional-like (or a reasonable facsimile thereof) at my work office last Fri when I realized that the resident Hannibal and Wendigo Funko POPs looked . . . mournful, and lonesome. So yeah, I ordered them a Will.
posted by FelliniBlank at 10:59 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Today we finally implemented a long-planned migration to Dropbox at work, and so for the first time, our laptop desktop files are being backed up. Y'all better believe I scrambled to get certain files onto a flash drive and off my damn desktop this morning.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:08 AM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Update! In which english lit references bloom.
posted by The Whelk at 2:22 PM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Just in time for me to read it while I am waiting for an appointment to start. Hurrah! I shall go do so now.

Someone commented earlier on mine that I write Cary Grant / Rosalind Russell dialogue for Hannigram. If I do it is unintentional but now it's ALL I WANT TO DO FOREVER. Screwball comedy Murder Husbands.
posted by Stacey at 2:40 PM on September 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


you know a free and happy Hannibal would be making quips every possible moment. He can barely stop himself from doing it in his people suit.
posted by The Whelk at 2:45 PM on September 14, 2015 [3 favorites]


Literally within the first, like, minute of his freedom in the finale, he makes two of them
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:58 PM on September 14, 2015 [2 favorites]


Free, in an interesting invigorating situation, and with Will. It's hard to think of what could make him more ebullient.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:00 PM on September 14, 2015


God look how much he enjoyed himself with Bedelia at the dinnertable, raining on his parade. He'd be exponentially more wacky with Will, if Will would just get onboard a little. Remember how he BEAMED during their dinner with Mason.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:03 PM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


I loved the werid deer recap of that moment like

*tears flesh off*

Hannibal : Beamning
Will Ah shit don't look at him he's gonna be -
Hannibal MY BEAUTIFUL MONSTER ^heart eyes^
Will Yeah that's me ....ugh
posted by The Whelk at 3:07 PM on September 14, 2015 [4 favorites]


I loved the werid deer recap of that moment like

I was compelled by a lonely impulse of delight to enjoy the fantastic visuals again. "Hannibal, on the other hand, has been waiting for this particular moment with every single impossible inch of the bottomless abyss that is his soul."
posted by FelliniBlank at 5:32 PM on September 14, 2015 [1 favorite]


Everyone else is writing a fic, now I guess I have to think up a fic. It just won't hold a candle to you guys' offerings.

Hmmm (chews pencil)
posted by tel3path at 4:00 PM on September 15, 2015


DO IT. Cannibal Art Club is in session. (Fics, mixtapes, drawings, whatever. I am still grieving my show and I need input.)

I realized this afternoon that I'd written myself into a corner so now I'm going to stare blankly at this google doc and try to figure out how to fix it. I think the fix is "Hannibal needs a shitty burner phone to make this plot point work" but I'm just trying to picture Hannibal futzing with like prepaid Cricket minutes or something and I can't really deal with it as a concept.
posted by Stacey at 4:35 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


I am still grieving my show and I need input.

It's really a rollercoaster, isn't it? (if you're me), but hey, grief works like grief regardless of what you're grieving; it's all about the level of attachment and the importance of the missed thing in your life. I got the S1-2 blu-rays and a blu-ray player (finally) a few weeks ago so I could at some point listen to the ep. commentaries. I figured I'd try resuming my rewatch-in-progress with Kaiseki last night just to test out the blu-ray experience since I've been feeling somewhat less burdened by sorrow in recent days. (The fic helps a lot.) Poured myself a tankard of wine, got comfy, enjoyed it IMMENSELY . . . while also literally sobbing through every frame like someone just ran over one of my dogs, because each moment was so beautiful. Oh well, it's a process.
posted by FelliniBlank at 4:56 PM on September 15, 2015


Something I would really like to see is a crack video set to any track from The Cure's Disintegration. Lots of tracks could work, but "Pictures of You" is one that keeps getting in my head. Does anyone do video editing? I do not have the technology to do it.
posted by fancyoats at 5:12 PM on September 15, 2015


I've been listening to the entire souxie souix library for this fic and so much of that swoons gothy new wave music from the era works, the cure totally fits.

But yes, more creative works, every one makes us seem less crazy.

(I had a big block cause this was supposed to be a one off thing and I had no idea where I was going just the general themes ...until I remembered this David Bowie video and everything clicked.
posted by The Whelk at 5:25 PM on September 15, 2015 [1 favorite]


Fellow craxy people - does Will mention how he got the injury that put him off the police force? Like just in general - it was a gun shot or a stabbing>
posted by The Whelk at 8:01 PM on September 15, 2015


Stabbed, possibly in the shoulder, and he had to shoot the person attacking him, but in Fuller's version, he couldn't bring himself to shoot to kill as Jack reminded him.
posted by dorothyisunderwood at 8:09 PM on September 15, 2015


gotcha, thanks!
posted by The Whelk at 8:11 PM on September 15, 2015


Update! Just like the show we tip our toe into procedural and then just go bonkers. TREES! STATUES! NORSE GODS?
posted by The Whelk at 9:22 PM on September 15, 2015 [3 favorites]


Norse gods are always the answer.
posted by Stacey at 4:27 AM on September 16, 2015


Adam in the garden! Velvet Underground! Love it!
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:49 AM on September 16, 2015


Say-

I just saw that in an older thread, I asked "Hey - aside from shooting Hobbes, had Hannibal actually witnessed Will committing an act of violence before that cheek-biting?"

The consensus was no, he hadn't. But I just watched the pilot again, and I was actually wrong about something - Hannibal didn't see Will shooting Hobbes. He walks into the room right after it happens.

So actually, he never saw Will commit a single act of violence until Digestivo (if we don't count his abortive attempt to shoot Horse Guy), which would make Dolarhyde only the second time.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:18 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh god, I totally missed the Velvet Underground reference. I love it. Are we all just doing Cannibal Art Club in-jokes now? (Because, obviously, the reason my Hannibal has a secret New Orleans hideaway in the chapter I posted a couple of days ago is because Whelk, and in this morning's thing my Will's fixing a clock because rumor has it that's how showbiz_liz pictures him.)

I'm trying to think of other violent acts and I can't think of a one, although I will keep my eye out during re-watch. Tonight's my "partner goes to support group and I lounge around painting my toenails and watching TV" night so I'm anticipating making good inroads into S1. And having pretty purple toenails.
posted by Stacey at 9:52 AM on September 16, 2015 [1 favorite]


I rewatched it all before S3 aired, but having gone back and watched the first 2 episodes just now, all of Will and Hannibal's interactions take on a weirdly new light. It's really pretty striking.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:56 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


The Abu reference was totally a Cannibal Art a Club I joke. I fully love and encourage these cross references.

Also, you could look at this carefully recreated murder as a form of Ripper fanfic if you squint.
posted by The Whelk at 10:17 AM on September 16, 2015


Also "Forensic specialist Erskine"? Is Greg Nog, obviously
posted by The Whelk at 10:18 AM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


What support group is that, the My Partner Is A Fannibal Support Group?

I think Alana was in one of those back in S2, and it only made her feel more isolated
posted by tel3path at 12:33 PM on September 16, 2015


Ha! No, he doesn't know yet how far off the deep end I've gone. It's bipolar support group. He will be doing good things for his mental health and I will be writing cannibal flashback porn.
posted by Stacey at 12:59 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Still making those buffy x hannibal things because, good lord, the possibilities just continue to present themselves, and this might be my favorite yet just because I can imagine this conversation literally happening on the show
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:07 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Still making those buffy x hannibal things because, good lord, the possibilities just continue to present themselves

That's you that makes those?!? Wicked! Do you take suggestions because I have a good one?
posted by AdagioCantabile at 2:27 PM on September 16, 2015


TOTALLY and also thank you!
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:28 PM on September 16, 2015


TOTALLY and also thank you!

Oh, good! I memailed it to you.
posted by AdagioCantabile at 2:55 PM on September 16, 2015


OK, that new Buffy vs Hannibal #17 that (I'm guessing) AdagioCantabile suggested? may have caused me to break my spleen with laughter. And your whole relationship analogy explains a lot about my weird affection for Hannibal, because I had exactly the same (totally fucked-up) attitude about Spike and Buffy that I do about Hannigram: "Girl, listen, he's madly in love with you. WTF are you waiting for? So he's kind of evil and predatory, so what? Nobody's perfect. C'mon, live a little. Stop being all 'I'll bone you but you can't make me care about you.'" Thank god I swore off dating a decade ago. I'm just hoping that at least this parallel means H&W will have a bunch of hate sex at some point.

In other news, I went to a concert tonight that included a bit of theremin playing, and I did not get all sad, just had a wistful moment or two.
posted by FelliniBlank at 9:20 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Here is your requisite "let's make a deal" portion of any post-finale fanfiction. I haven't read too many other peoples' fanfiction aside from yalls, but I hope this is not too tropey.
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:45 PM on September 16, 2015 [2 favorites]


Thank you for continuing to write, fannibal friends. Our faith is strong and when Hannigram return they will find faith on this earth.
posted by tel3path at 3:31 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ain't no problem with a trope done beautifully, showbiz_liz. I love it.

Me, I have just figured out that apparently I am the first person to use "Murder Ex-Husbands" as a tag on AO3? I don't understand how that's possible.
posted by Stacey at 5:14 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


SEASON FOUR??????

???
?

posted by Greg Nog at 7:55 AM on September 17, 2015 [6 favorites]


I think mine might not ever veer into actual sex, because I kind of adore how the show made murder less of a metaphor for sex and more of a, like, alternative sexuality in and of itself. Murdersexuals.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:55 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


And apparently I am the first person to use the 'murdersexuals' tag on AO3? What even.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:06 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I don't do or plan to do any actual smut cause the metaphors for sex are so rich, but I do have them in bed and such, so yeah ( I thought I was Very clever in using the coffee as a symbol of their reconnection, first drunk in the front room, then the kitchen, then in bed, but I think that's just cause I really liked English class)
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


but I think that's just cause I really liked English class

I hope all that time I spent analyzing themes of order and chaos in Lord of the Flies and One Flew Over the Cuckoo's nest is bearing fruit in my cannibal fanfic. Ms. Joplin would be proud.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:33 AM on September 17, 2015


You are all creating fabulous, substantial things, and all I want to do is make a shameful Hannigram crackvid to Republica's Drop Dead Gorgeous.
posted by merriment at 8:38 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Sometimes I remember the time that I turned in what I now realize was Beowulf fan fiction for an actual grade in an actual English class in high school. I got an A but I have to imagine the poor teacher was howling with laughter the entire time she graded it.

It will surprise no one to learn that my sympathies were with Grendel. My whole life was leading up to Hannibal, apparently.

Merriment, please go make that video, I wish very much to watch it. Hannibal crackvids give me life.
posted by Stacey at 8:52 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


I swear Jacob's Pickles on 90th street does serve a mug of the finest chicken tendys Greg.
posted by The Whelk at 9:00 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


I removed this thread from my activity yesterday because I realized that I really really enjoyed the show but you people have a sickness that isn't abating.

... which is probably why I had a dream last night about the promo clip for S04. I woke up immediately after and resisted the temptation to dictate the whole thing into my phone, which I now regret. What I can tell you is that Hannibal and Will were sitting in a car, a nondescript silver sedan, both wearing classy old bubble motorcycle helmets (similar to this). Hannibal is behind the wheel and he turns to face Will and almost smiles as he says, "Are you ready to go, Will?"

The camera cuts to just outside the passenger window, looking in. Will tilts his head slightly to the right, away from Hannibal, and stares off into nowhere with that pained 'I can't believe I'm doing this' expression.
posted by komara at 9:44 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


The sickness is already inside you
posted by The Whelk at 10:00 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


I removed this thread from my activity yesterday because I realized that I really really enjoyed the show but you people have a sickness that isn't abating.

~come play with us~
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:06 AM on September 17, 2015 [4 favorites]


~forever~
posted by tel3path at 10:12 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


It hasn't even been three weeks, yet. I know I am still processing (and starting yet another rewatch) and reading lots and lots of fic. I get a thrill whenever I check this thread *cough* multiple times a day *cough* and there are new comments by you gorgeous people. I may not comment much, because you guys are the cool art nerd seniors who have lunch in the photography classroom instead of the cafeteria, and I am the shy freshman who is eavesdropping in the doorway, desperately wanting to be one of you.
posted by fancyoats at 10:51 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


Oh my god, no, we are big giant weirdos, come hang out
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:52 AM on September 17, 2015 [1 favorite]


I promise you I have never been a cool anything in my life. Come play. We have puppies.
posted by Stacey at 10:53 AM on September 17, 2015 [3 favorites]


We can figure out which mythological subjects to use in this next chapter ( Archeon is out, already used in show...hmmm )
posted by The Whelk at 11:06 AM on September 17, 2015


See, but all the art nerd seniors would SAY they weren't cool too. And maybe they didn't feel cool, but they were, and so are you guys. You totally are.
posted by fancyoats at 11:09 AM on September 17, 2015 [2 favorites]


Why does this show make me feel like I am in high school???
posted by fancyoats at 11:09 AM on September 17, 2015 [