Westworld: Trace Decay
November 20, 2016 7:32 PM - Season 1, Episode 8 - Subscribe

Bernard struggles with a mandate; Maeve attempts to change her script; Teddy is disturbed by dark memories.
posted by JimBennett (166 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
Okay, so this episode basically confirms the two timelines theory, but part of me still thinks it's misdirection. I remember the MiB had a few lines about the hosts being more mechanical in nature when he first visited the park, and that has been my prime evidence against William being the MiB since hosts are clearly organic in both timelines, but I haven't seen anyone else mention this. does anyone else remember this and know which episode it was? more thoughts on this episode coming soon but this has been a sticking point for me the last few episodes.
posted by JimBennett at 7:37 PM on November 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


[Head a'splodes.]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:56 PM on November 20, 2016 [3 favorites]


My friend, who doesn't buy the two timelines theory, says that William and Dolores are chasing Wyatt - that's not true, right? If Wyatt is part of their storyline, then it makes things a bit muddier, since the Delos rep said that Wyatt is a new storyline. Maybe Wyatt is who's shooting up the town in Dolores' flashback this episode? A narrative lost to time that Ford has just dug up out of the past?
posted by codacorolla at 8:01 PM on November 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


Anyone else think the 'host malfunction' 30 years ago was actually William killing his BIL?

And the park covered it up?

Would explain why his wife hates and fears him.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:04 PM on November 20, 2016 [5 favorites]


Delores and William are definitely in the past because the burned down church is being currently rebuilt in the new storyline.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:05 PM on November 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


I am waaaaaaay too dumb for this show!
Two timeframes or not, I am just swimming in lostness and basically have no idea what's going on at all ever....and yet I'm compelled to keep watching.
Serious question: is there some sort of "WestWorld for Dummies" blog/page/something that I can consult? That can just get me clear on the basics/givens of this world/story? I was also for some reason under the assumption that Dolores and William were chasing Wyatt/on the new narrative storyline....but I guess that wrong? Gah. So confused. Someone spell it out for meeeeeee! (Please).
posted by Dorinda at 8:09 PM on November 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


So the MIB's wife that killed herself was Dolores?
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:09 PM on November 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


When the man in black and Teddy come across the woman tied up, MiB says something like "I thought they retired you," and it was the host that greeted William when he got off the train (Talulah Riley).
posted by jeweled accumulation at 8:11 PM on November 20, 2016 [14 favorites]


Oh, and the storyline that Ford's writing is the one that the MIB's playing, so that puts his timeline slightly ahead of the main behind-the-scenes stuff. I guess.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:11 PM on November 20, 2016


Also, I'm actually sad about Bernard. Oh, Elsie.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 8:12 PM on November 20, 2016 [6 favorites]


Not my observation, but:

Felix and Sylvester: Both named after cats, and Sylvester hates tweety bird

If MiB is William, then he and Teddy are on Bill & Ted's Excellent Adventure.

And what's Ted's last name? Ted Theodore LOGAN.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:15 PM on November 20, 2016 [30 favorites]


I am waaaaaaay too dumb for this show!

I don't think not understanding this show would make someone dumb. A lot of my understanding of it comes from engaging socially with people about the narrative after it airs. Without discussion here, I would've missed out on a lot of stuff. The show is being purposefully oblique (one can argue about the intentions of that obliqueness), so not understanding what's happening is sort of what they're going for.
posted by codacorolla at 8:19 PM on November 20, 2016 [15 favorites]


My biggest question from this episode is if Ms. Hale selected Abernathy deliberately to be the courier for her data; she seemed to walk directly to him, bypassing so many other hosts. He is certainly an interesting choice, given that he is a carrier of the self-aware Violent Delights virus and has such a violent backstory.
posted by autopilot at 8:20 PM on November 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


When the man in black and Teddy come across the woman tied up, MiB says something like "I thought they retired you," and it was the host that greeted William when he got off the train (Talulah Riley)

she's also present in dolores' flashback to the desert town right? the technician is helping her dance? i'm terrible with faces so that might have been another blonde woman, but the same woman is present in dolores' flashback with everybody dead on the ground, and there's somebody behind a door who looks like he could be a young man in black? i still think this could be a big bait and switch but i can't quite figure out all the pieces.
posted by JimBennett at 8:21 PM on November 20, 2016 [2 favorites]


Oh- MiB's line about being the god of more worlds is probably a sly little nod to the fact that there's a RomeWorld and MedievalWorld or some-such out there, right?
posted by codacorolla at 8:31 PM on November 20, 2016


Still not buying two timelines - Dolores' chronological weirdness is cause she literally can't separate a memory from what is happening now.

I think the timeline is completely straightforward and they're using using the Host's inability to tell memory from reality as a clever way to show how their mind works (also, giving them fractured...one might say fragmented memories would be a way to drive them insane, someone run memory defragmentation on them and see what happens)
posted by The Whelk at 8:47 PM on November 20, 2016 [7 favorites]


does anyone else remember this and know which episode it was?

I'm not sure what episode number it was, but I'm fairly sure he said this when he, Teddy, and Lawrence met the child Ford host. He sent the boy to fetch some water and I believe he mentioned the "clockwork" host machinery when he was talking to Teddy as he cut Lawrence's throat to bleed him out.
posted by tomorrowromance at 8:48 PM on November 20, 2016 [1 favorite]


I think the blonde host in the dance scene is the snake tattoo woman.

The way the town is buried seems odd and unrealistic, like that Governors Island stunt a few years back.
posted by migurski at 11:17 PM on November 20, 2016 [4 favorites]


Okay, so this episode basically confirms the two timelines theory

It's funny, because every time somebody says this, I waltz in here thinking the exact opposite. I felt like this episode especially disproved any two timelines thing, especially after that massive exposition from the MiB.

I think the show is walking a tricky tight rope - like, okay, Bernard is a host; that's pretty heavy. What happens when they want to tell us that somebody else was a host this whole time, too? Diminishing narrative returns. Also, when the head of security guy was talking to him near the end of this episode, it really made me think that it's completely crazy that nobody's caught onto Bernard being a host until (maybe?) now. Ford's NOT that good.

And, it's all well and good to have Bernard kill Theresa and manipulate a bunch of emotions out of us, but to so quickly show that he may have done the same to Elsie? I have a feeling that's a massive misdirect, because Bernard had just gotten off the phone with her, from (I assume) pretty far away, just before it happened. If they do the whole "haha, you never noticed because we never showed you, but there's actually lots of clones of these robots!" thing, I am going to be mad.
posted by destructive cactus at 12:03 AM on November 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


It's funny, because every time somebody says this, I waltz in here thinking the exact opposite. I felt like this episode especially disproved any two timelines thing, especially after that massive exposition from the MiB.

I guess maybe we should separate "two timeframes" from "specific theories about the relationship between timeframes?"

Delores and William are definitely in the past because the burned down church is being currently rebuilt in the new storyline.

I missed this - so if that was obvious take it as evidence against my reliability noticing things but:

MiB's speech also made me feel less like he's William, though I guess it doesn't rule it out. It's just that it had been my theory that William turning into MiB would be a consequence of getting in too deep with this Dolores story, and MiB providing a bit of alternative backstory makes that seem less likely. Unless his past behavior in the park had something to do with the breakdown of his relationship with his family? Also Dolores seems to be having flashbacks with William? Do we have that many timeframes? Or I guess they could be... premonitions? Visions?
posted by atoxyl at 1:28 AM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Some people on reddit seem to think the part with William is a flashback for latter-day Dolores while she's retracing her steps. Or something like that? But I don't really see how one reads those scenes that way.
posted by atoxyl at 1:31 AM on November 21, 2016


Unless she is literally having flashbacks inside flashbacks!
posted by atoxyl at 1:31 AM on November 21, 2016


my take:

35 years ago, the town is there, church and all. Taluluh Riley ("I thought they retired you") is next to the dancers. Dolores causes first incident.
church and town are buried.

30 years ago, William and Logan show up. William is greeted by Taluluh Riley. Meets Dolores, and heads off-loop back to the town and find that it's not there.

1 year ago, MiB kills Maeve and her daughter, feels nothing until he sees how "alive" Maeve is and realizes that Pain and Suffering can make the hosts Real.

Present day(ish). Ford has excavated the town but it's still empty since he's still working on the narrative. MiB is trying to make hosts alive by causing Pain and Suffering. I think he's trying to get Dolores to remember him and now that he knows that he can help them out (by assaulting them) he's got hope that it could happen to Dolores so she can remember that he's William. (edit. MiB sees Taluluh Riley)

So at the town, Dolores sees the town in all three states. Original, with the less sophisticated hosts, buried with William, then all by herself in the present after it's been unearthed, but is still empty.
posted by johnstein at 1:42 AM on November 21, 2016 [35 favorites]


and this image, I think, sells the 3 timeframes best.
posted by johnstein at 1:46 AM on November 21, 2016 [11 favorites]


Talulah Riley probably divorced Elon Musk again because she couldn't face having to listen to his commentary on a show about AI.
posted by atoxyl at 2:58 AM on November 21, 2016 [14 favorites]


(apologies to anybody who thought of that joke in a previous thread!)
posted by atoxyl at 2:59 AM on November 21, 2016


By the end of this episode, I thought that if the show isn't trying to tell the story through multiple time perspectives,it's creators sure want us to think they are. Giving us Talulah Riley and having the MIB specifically say he thought she was a retired model seems, in my unqualified expertise,, to be the case of a 75% chance of timeline manipulation, 20% chance of timeline manipulation NOT! PSYCH! that was the twist and 5% narrative cluelessness.

I'm more bothered by the continuing story of Maeve, Sylvester, and Felix. I know Sylvester is fascinated by her, I know they bumped her Intelligence to 18/100, but I don't feel like their scenes have shown enough of their limitations to really sell the idea that they're not able to do something during the many times that she's completely, helplessly unresponsive. I guess they'll emphasize the whole "Felix as species-traitor" angle, especially if Maeve's going to keep getting more throat-slittingly ruthless.
posted by bibliowench at 3:47 AM on November 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Was that Elsie who Bernard was choking in his flash-vision? I couldn't tell, but it seemed most likely. The dancer who wandered away from her partner was the snake-tattoo woman without her tattoo.

The MiB's exposition made me feel less like he was William, but the narrative developments made it feel more likely, so, uh, yeah.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:55 AM on November 21, 2016


This episode confirmed that Sylvester at least is a host, yes? That didn't look like human flesh being cauterized. It looked like a seamless repair with whatever tool Felix was using.
posted by mama casserole at 4:08 AM on November 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


The MiB's exposition made me feel less like he was William, but the narrative developments made it feel more likely, so, uh, yeah.

He def killed that wounded soldier while Dolores' back was turned, I think.

Also, in support of the idea that Dolores is headed back to the maze alone in the present --- the flashback she has at the side of the river. She goes to get the water, she's with William; she turns back she's alone.

Don't know how she keeps seeing herself in these flashbacks. Whose memories are third person omniscient? Hosts', I guess.
posted by Diablevert at 4:19 AM on November 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Hosts are constantly programmed to remember things that didn't happen. Dolores's flashbacks could to memories Ford put there as part of his new story (like the canyon she dreamed of and drew). I think we've only seen the unburnt church town in flashbacks and in a toy model on Ford's desk where he was still deliberating over where to put the actual church.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:25 AM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


This episode confirmed that Sylvester at least is a host, yes? That didn't look like human flesh being cauterized. It looked like a seamless repair with whatever tool Felix was using.

Maeve also mentions that Sly has a 14 in intelligence. i assume when she was looking through their tablets she was accessing Felix and Sylvester'a host profiles.
posted by JimBennett at 5:35 AM on November 21, 2016


When she said "14", I thought she was referencing her previous build.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:41 AM on November 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


Maeve also mentions that Sly has a 14 in intelligence. i assume when she was looking through their tablets she was accessing Felix and Sylvester'a host profiles.

I thought she said that she was already smarter than he was when she was 14, before her "upgrade".
posted by McSly at 5:43 AM on November 21, 2016 [10 favorites]


Dolores's flashbacks could to memories Ford put there as part of his new story (like the canyon she dreamed of and drew). I think we've only seen the unburnt church town in flashbacks and in a toy model on Ford's desk where he was still deliberating over where to put the actual church.

In that case, why would she be programmed to remember the technicians teaching the spacey hosts to dance?

So the MIB's wife that killed herself was Dolores?

William is engaged IRL to Logan's sister, so maybe it was her.

William totally killed that dying boy by the river when Dolores wasn't looking, right? Just so they could keep moving. I think we're witnessing the gradual erosion of his empathy for the hosts (until the end result is, possibly, MiB).

This episode confirmed that Sylvester at least is a host, yes? That didn't look like human flesh being cauterized. It looked like a seamless repair with whatever tool Felix was using.

Myself, I just accepted that the cutting edge technology which makes it possible to build organic tissue robots which can be endlessly killed and routinely brought back to life again and again would work on human skin too. Weren't we told that there's not that much difference anymore, ever since the hosts were made more humanlike?
posted by sively at 5:58 AM on November 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


We've seen hosts being recast (eg, the replacement for Maeve's mate in this episode), which must involve switching their backstories between bodies. Can they be transferred to different bodies entirely? That could explain why Dolores keeps seeing herself in flashbacks; she was looking out of different eyes.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 6:47 AM on November 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I have this weird idea I can't support that the early build of Dolores is where Arnold backed himself up when he died. She is the "house" he built to hide in at the center of the maze.
posted by papercake at 6:49 AM on November 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Myself, I just accepted that the cutting edge technology which makes it possible to build organic tissue robots which can be endlessly killed and routinely brought back to life again and again would work on human skin too. Weren't we told that there's not that much difference anymore, ever since the hosts were made more humanlike?

We are told that. We're also told that the technological and medical advances of the outside world have solved most human problems. I took the insta-heal gun to be something that would also work on humans because technology has advanced to that level, and because the hosts are so life-like. We see their skeletal structures, their internal organs, and the ways that they die. They are essentially human bodies.
posted by codacorolla at 6:54 AM on November 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


I have this weird idea I can't support that the early build of Dolores is where Arnold backed himself up when he died. She is the "house" he built to hide in at the center of the maze.

I'm almost at the point of betting that Dolores is either Arnold or Wyatt. The writers have spent too much time building both of them up as bad guys (or "bad" guys) that to just introduce us to two completely new people during the last episode would be really narratively unsatisfying.
posted by bibliowench at 7:02 AM on November 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Could Arnold and Wyatt not be the same person? That's my bet at this point. That Ford's creating the narrative to have the Man in Black and the hosts find Wyatt/Arnold because he can't find him himself.

I have to say I'm getting kind of tired of the endless speculation and not knowing what the hell is going on. I hope we get some payoff for all this time spent wondering.
posted by something something at 7:11 AM on November 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


I have this weird idea I can't support that the early build of Dolores is where Arnold backed himself up when he died. She is the "house" he built to hide in at the center of the maze.

Also note in this episode - the maze design strongly parallels the radial defrag-screen 'memory core' display that is on Bernarnold's tablet when he was doing analysis on flashback-Maeve. (I'll have to screencap when I'm back home to confirm)
posted by FatherDagon at 7:29 AM on November 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


Calling it now: it was all a dream.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:43 AM on November 21, 2016


I have to say I'm getting kind of tired of the endless speculation and not knowing what the hell is going on. I hope we get some payoff for all this time spent wondering.

I'm sort of in the same boat. It was fun at first, but now it feels like I watch each week for fairly weak characters (with a few exceptions) going through intentionally oblique plotlines so that I can get a small dribble of clues that may or may not matter for a mystery that I increasingly don't give that much of a shit about. I wish this had just been a straight-forward story about a robot revolution. Maeve's stuff is interesting. Puzzle box LOST-type-shit is not.
posted by codacorolla at 8:06 AM on November 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


The tech bits still don't work for me. It would have been better if there had been more between Maeve and Felix alone. We need some dialogue where she plays on his desire to learn to program, suggests that maybe together they can crack what's going on with her. Then he could let slip that he knows about Sylvester's memory wipe trick. Then instead of Maeve blackmailing Sylvester, it could be Felix blackmailing Sylvester. Syl coughs up the hack without understanding what Felix intends to do with it, then Felix cranks up Maeve's stats. That's the big problem with the scenes --- everything about Syl says he'd try and brick her right away as soon as he understood what was going on. He needs to be kept in the dark longer, and then the rest of it pretty much works.

Sorry, just needed to get that off my chest and this felt like a safe space.
posted by Diablevert at 8:08 AM on November 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Yeah, there's so much shit with the incompetent techs that feels handwaved away. Not so much their motivations (which are cheap and sort of flimsy, but make a little sense), but that we've seen Delos as being this uber-paranoid environment where the slightest missteps are pounced on by security, but we have these two dinguses carting a host to places where they have no clearance, accessing top level programming features to help her slip her bonds, and doing so with absolutely no blowback. I can think of any number of fantasy explanations for why the above has happened (it's a larger conspiracy within a conspiracy!), but I'm sort of sick of papering over plot holes with my own speculation. Just tell me a story that's coherent on its face without tasking me to do the work.
posted by codacorolla at 8:15 AM on November 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


I find the presence of children-looking hosts in the general park population kind of worrying, just based on how some humans behave when given the opportunity.
posted by rmd1023 at 8:24 AM on November 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trying to decide whether to start a Thandie Newton Fan Club or a cult based around Maeve. Maybe both.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:33 AM on November 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


I wish this had just been a straight-forward story about a robot revolution. Maeve's stuff is interesting. Puzzle box LOST-type-shit is not.

I'm beginning to agree. I don't think they realized the hive mind would figure it out as quickly as they did. If this were a movie (or a binge watch) and the audience was only at this point in the plot beginning to figure out the mystery, I think it would feel a lot more satisfying and exciting. As it is it feels a bit like we've juiced the orange and are only now taking a bite. Dry pulp.

On the other hand, I do still see room for a thematic payoff. The Vulture recap got into this nicely --- all this stuff about memory and loops, it's about the meaning of pain. The lives of hosts are a hell with memory, and meaningless void without it. To restore their memories to them is to restore their pain to them, and suggests that the price of consciousness will be be having their minds warped by pain. If William does become MiB, then it suggests that what he really learned in the park was callowness --- to indulge his dark side without price, to cease to feel. If Dolores becomes the Big Bad, the it suggests the opposite, that she begins to feel, and in so doing goes from innocent farmgirl to goddess of destruction. Opposite arcs passing in the middle, their love between.

Ford referenced Frankenstein this week. Aka The Modern Prometheus, another myth about knowledge and pain --- the original version brought fire to man and spent eternity having his liver pecked out for his trouble...Bernard is Ford's Monster, Dolores is Arnold's, maybe William/MiB is the blind man....
posted by Diablevert at 8:34 AM on November 21, 2016 [15 favorites]


I don't feel like there is a wasted scene in the entire season to this point, personally.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:37 AM on November 21, 2016 [24 favorites]


I would be willing to shorten, or even give up a few scenes with Lee Sizemore if that meant we got a more fleshed-out Maeve story, or heck, even more Hector or Lawrence. I've gotten the point that he's a talentless hack pretty thoroughly by now.
posted by bibliowench at 8:49 AM on November 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


JimBennett: Maeve also mentions that Sly has a 14 in intelligence. i assume when she was looking through their tablets she was accessing Felix and Sylvester'a host profiles.

tofu_crouton: When she said "14", I thought she was referencing her previous build.

Maeve: You think I didn't know what you were going to do? Even at a 14, you were never a match for me. Turns out your friend has a little more compassion than you. (Transcript)


codacorolla: Yeah, there's so much shit with the incompetent techs that feels handwaved away.

I view it as semi-realistic. People only see what they expect to see, so unless the techs are prohibited from certain areas, or generally not seen there. I imagine the techs do host hand-off to the behavioral folks, so their presence is no surprise, and they were in their sneaky black outfits (warning: naked Maeve on a slab, but where you can see that both Felix and Sylvester are in full-black outfits).
posted by filthy light thief at 9:05 AM on November 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


rmd1023: Was that Elsie who Bernard was choking in his flash-vision?

Oh, Elsie (blurry screenshot)
posted by filthy light thief at 9:12 AM on November 21, 2016


Maybe there's more than one copy of a host?
posted by dazed_one at 9:12 AM on November 21, 2016


SPOILER: MiB is Lt. Reginald Barclay in his long, unsatisfying retirement. Holodeck addiction has returned with a vengeance.
posted by rocketman at 9:35 AM on November 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


14 was definitely her original intelligence rating
posted by atoxyl at 9:39 AM on November 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


lots to parse in these episodes, y'all are definitely right about that.
posted by JimBennett at 9:54 AM on November 21, 2016


On the other hand, I do still see room for a thematic payoff. The Vulture recap got into this nicely --- all this stuff about memory and loops, it's about the meaning of pain. The lives of hosts are a hell with memory, and meaningless void without it. To restore their memories to them is to restore their pain to them, and suggests that the price of consciousness will be be having their minds warped by pain.

Yeah, I think that there is a very interesting story to tell here. But the overarching mystery of the maze seems to be a distraction rather than an accent. I guess it's hard to judge fully until we have an entire season. I wish I had binge watched it instead of feeling strung along over weeks - that may have given me a different perspective on the mystery angle.
posted by codacorolla at 9:59 AM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


The Maeve story is really getting on my nerves. I just dont know how she is getting away with all of that. Same with Sylvester and Felix. How is the surveillance/security team not onto them, or behavior for that matter. It feels like they have been exclusively doing Maeves bidding and not actual work. Something is mighty fishy there.
Also Ford seems too oblivious to the machines gaining conscientiousness that it makes me feel like he is planning to burn Westworld to the ground in order to save his creation from the corporation.

Some Predictions for the Future:
1. I don't think we will know what the maze does until season 2. Last episode will use it as a reveal where Dolores finds it and we get a nice cliffhanger shot right before the credits. Maybe some vague hints as to what it is supposed to do.

2. They will resolve the Will/Gunslinger/MiB storyline and clear up the multiple time line business, probably ending with the first accident and the robot uprising as parallel climax of the final episode.

3. Will and Logan are mirroring the two guys from the original Westworld movie (they look fairly similar) which means that Logan has to die in the uprising while Will escapes.

I heard Season 2 will not be until 2018, which might mean that they are introducing Romanworld or Medievalworld and need the time for sets etc, otherwise the gap between seasons feels too long.
posted by Megustalations at 10:35 AM on November 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Trying to decide whether to start a Thandie Newton Fan Club or a cult based around Maeve. Maybe both.


Call it "Naked Every Episode Fan Club".
posted by Burhanistan at 10:39 AM on November 21, 2016


I wish I had binge watched it instead of feeling strung along over weeks - that may have given me a different perspective on the mystery angle.

I quite enjoy the guessing and theorizing. It is was made LOST special to me and such a phenomenon. It is agonizing sure, but I prefer it to the empty feeling I get after binging an entire show that lives from episode to episode. I never quite understood the Netflix approach and wished they would space out their shows to foster some sense of community following along week by week. But that is just me. I can understand the desire to have it all at once, but for me the journey is half the reason I watch this stuff.
posted by Megustalations at 10:44 AM on November 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


The Maeve story is really getting on my nerves. I just dont know how she is getting away with all of that.

Between Ford's remodeling, the board visit, Theresa's death, Elsie's disappearance, Sizemore's meltdown, and the reverie clusterfuck, maybe a little AI singularity can slip through the cracks.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:49 AM on November 21, 2016 [5 favorites]


It feels like they have been exclusively doing Maeves bidding and not actual work.

Well it's not like the show would become *more* interesting if we spent a lot of time watching low-level technicians uneventfully completing their designated daily tasks. The only reason we see them at all is because of Maeve's interactions with them. As far as the security issues go, it's already been demonstrated that superusers like Bernarnold can edit security logs *really* easily, and Maeve has been granting herself various admin privileges to hack the Gibson for several episodes now.
posted by FatherDagon at 10:59 AM on November 21, 2016 [9 favorites]


What is their motivation, though? That's what I don't get. At any point they could just knock her out and then tell someone, "Hey, this robot is out of control, she needs to be put in the basement." Felix seems a bit under her spell so I guess I can see why he's going along with Maeve - it makes him feel special, in a way? - but it doesn't make any sense given Sylvester's personality that he would be letting this happen.
posted by something something at 11:04 AM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


but it doesn't make any sense given Sylvester's personality that he would be letting this happen

Well I seem to remember this episode demonstrating Sylvester very specifically NOT going along with this and also demonstrating the consequences for him.
posted by rocketman at 11:08 AM on November 21, 2016


Man, I'm looking forward to next week. Maeve giving herself god-mode powers over her fellow hosts has some really neat implications: for one thing, the way she uses them is by literally changing their narratives. She's given herself editorial privileges.

The question is, does she keep using them only for her own benefit, or does she use them to liberate her fellow hosts? Eventually she'll be face-to-face with Bernard, and then she'll have to choose between cutting his strings like she's cut her own, or just transferring them from Ford's grip to her own.

If she's a better person than Ford, she'll want allies. If she's not, she'll want puppets.
posted by nonasuch at 11:10 AM on November 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


At any point they could just knock her out and then tell someone, "Hey, this robot is out of control, she needs to be put in the basement." Felix seems a bit under her spell so I guess I can see why he's going along with Maeve - it makes him feel special, in a way? - but it doesn't make any sense given Sylvester's personality that he would be letting this happen.

Sylvester just literally tried that, and got double-crossed by Felix.

The real question is why doesn't Sylvester rat Felix out to the higher-ups when Maeve is back in Sweetwater. That way they could shut her down remotely and Sylvester would risk getting knifed.

Presumably he stays quiet so he can keep up his little side business, and so he doesn't get fired for letting this go on for so long.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:34 AM on November 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I don't have a problem with the idea that Felix is some combination of sympathetic to Maeve, infatuated with Maeve, enthralled by the prospect of getting to play around with the technology in a serious way and do something amazing. I do think the show does an inadequate job portraying his interiority, so it just looks too much like he's doing super dangerous things for no clear reason.
posted by atoxyl at 11:36 AM on November 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


I do think the show does an inadequate job portraying his interiority, so it just looks too much like he's doing super dangerous things for no clear reason.

Yeah, I agree. And I know Sylvester suffered some consequences last night, but this thing has been going on for a while and there were many points before now where it could have been stopped. I still think this is a weak point of the show, how easily she's manipulating them.
posted by something something at 11:39 AM on November 21, 2016


Weird, I like Westworld, but when thinking about last night's episode, couldn't remember a whole lot and couldn't figure out.

Then I realized i don't care much about the MiB, Dolores, Teddy or William. The two timeline theory is probably what's happening, but I just don't care.

Now Maeve and Bernard? CARE VERY MUCH. Jeffrey Wright and Thandie Newton are absolutely killing it and at this point I willing to watch them watch paint dry. If I have to do it through yet another tired trope of robots becoming sentient/alive/just like us, so be it.

But the story just isn't very good overall. The Bernard reveal was well done, but in retrospect is so fucking ludicrous, you wonder what the writers were smoking. It makes no damn sense why Ford would torture Bernard so, then wipe away the memory.

Sure, there's some master plan of Ford's going on here, but I don't really care about it. There's mystery and intrigue when there should be none, the show has a great concept, but riding on well worn beats.

I'll finish out these two episodes, am skeptical of coming back for season 2. It would be much more interesting to see the 'bots coming to terms with sentience in their way and time, without a psychopathic murderer hovering over them. I long for celebration of life and realizing what it's like to be alive, instead of another trudge through a narrative gutter.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:12 PM on November 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


It makes no damn sense why Ford would torture Bernard so, then wipe away the memory.

Because Ford is admiring his own work. He revels in the emotions Bernard experiences. He wipes away the memory because he doesn't want Bernard to know about killing Theresa.
posted by Pendragon at 12:52 PM on November 21, 2016 [7 favorites]


Did anybody else go whomp whomp when a Minotaur showed up to confront Teddy and the MiB? They're in the maze, dawg.
posted by rocketman at 12:53 PM on November 21, 2016 [43 favorites]


So much for Ford making a host copy of Theresa. Maybe that host being printed was just part of the scenery and it's assumed he's always making them?
posted by Burhanistan at 12:53 PM on November 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Elsie is still in the running for next year's model. There are too many long, deliberate shots of the printing process for it to be an anonymous bot unless they're deliberately subverting the trope.
posted by cardboard at 1:03 PM on November 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


I liked that Maeve sent her friends from the Mariposa away -- sending New Clem to get the prostitutes to take customers upstairs on the house, and sending the bartender to the back room -- right before shit went down with the shootout. That was like a little glimmer of goodness peeking out.
posted by sldownard at 1:18 PM on November 21, 2016 [17 favorites]


Apropos of literally nothing: Security guy said the words "Theresa may have been trying to use the woodcutter..." as I was reading an article about the British Prime Minister. Spooky but meaningless.
posted by Grangousier at 1:39 PM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm impressed you can read political articles and watch this show at the same time. Bicameral mind?
posted by mama casserole at 2:44 PM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Very short attention span. And I was just skimming the Guardian website while the exposition was revving up (and this week's script was very florid and purple, I thought. Too much writer trying to be poetic in the dialogue, which you really don't need with these actors). But I did read the words "Theresa May" at exactly the same time security guy said them.

So the William in Black is the CEO of Delos, is that right? I mean the Law of Conservation of Narrative would demand it.

The two timeline version is a perfectly good story for me. Possibly as many as four timelines now I come to think of it (if the Bernard/Dolores dialogues happen in the aftermath of whatever happens to William and Dolores next, and as mentioned above there may be no reason for the backstage shenanigans to be happening at the same time as the MiB story, although I am almost always wrong).
posted by Grangousier at 2:58 PM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Oh, and speaking of black, this weeks player piano hit was Back in Black, yes? To go with Black Hole Sun and Paint It Black.
posted by Grangousier at 3:09 PM on November 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


Back to Black. Which contains the line "I've died a hundred times..."
posted by elsietheeel at 3:16 PM on November 21, 2016 [12 favorites]


Oh, yes, sorry. Amy Winehouse not AC/DC. Although, if the pattern continues I'm looking forward to the player piano rendition that too.
posted by Grangousier at 3:26 PM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I liked that Maeve sent her friends from the Mariposa away -- sending New Clem to get the prostitutes to take customers upstairs on the house, and sending the bartender to the back room -- right before shit went down with the shootout. That was like a little glimmer of goodness peeking out.

On the other hand, she rewrote the bartender to cancel out her bar tab. She recognises that they're robots, not sentient, like her. She has affection for them, but she's willing to use them, as much as she's willing to direct randos to cover her while she makes a run for it.

Given that Maeve is now super intelligent and aware of the true nature of the park, what's her play here in messing with a key narrative event? She had to know that it would bring the heat down on her.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 3:42 PM on November 21, 2016


She wants to get 'deactivated' but not destroyed, so that she can be in that creepy basement with all the standing naked deactivated hosts, so that she can have her army.
posted by destructive cactus at 3:50 PM on November 21, 2016 [16 favorites]


the Nude Model Army, as it were
posted by prize bull octorok at 4:17 PM on November 21, 2016 [34 favorites]


Rewatching the first episode, it seems to me that the only way William could be the MiB is if Dolores betrayed him for Wyatt or something like that. What else would explain his harsh treatment of her?
posted by Burhanistan at 4:22 PM on November 21, 2016


One thing that struck me this episode: *we* are watching a robot uprising of some kind, but from Maeve's perspective, she's totally the star of Dark City. Things are changing all around her. People are just slotted into roles interchangeably. She's been someone else. She's getting at the underpinnings of reality itself, trying to escape, against beings with godlike powers that she's trying to usurp.

... I'm not sure that observation is helpful, I just couldn't shake it while watching what she was up to, and I suspect she is indeed aiming for the basement.
posted by mordax at 4:25 PM on November 21, 2016 [8 favorites]


She wants to get 'deactivated' but not destroyed, so that she can be in that creepy basement with all the standing naked deactivated hosts, so that she can have her army.

What I really want to see, if she wants to maximize the horror of what the guests do to the hosts and the hosts coming back for vengeance, is her going to the charnel house with all the shot up hostbodies and waking all of THEM up. It's been telegraphed a few times already that they're only lying down because their programming says they should, not because of actual physical damage (for the most part)...
posted by FatherDagon at 4:29 PM on November 21, 2016 [4 favorites]


In this episode Teddy has his gun to MiB's head for the second time, to no effect. Perhaps there will be a third time.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:14 PM on November 21, 2016


and this image, I think, sells the 3 timeframes best.

Doesn't look like anything to me.
posted by um at 5:37 PM on November 21, 2016 [55 favorites]


Back on the theory train of Dolores has Arnold's backup based off johnstein's comment:
35 years ago, the town is there, church and all. Taluluh Riley ("I thought they retired you") is next to the dancers. Dolores causes first incident.
church and town are buried.

30 years ago, William and Logan show up. William is greeted by Taluluh Riley. Meets Dolores, and heads off-loop back to the town and find that it's not there.

1 year ago, MiB kills Maeve and her daughter, feels nothing until he sees how "alive" Maeve is and realizes that Pain and Suffering can make the hosts Real.

That first incident, how did it happen? All we know is that there was an incident, and Arnold disappeared. What if the memories of the incident are not Dolores', but Arnold, realizing that pain awakens the hosts?

I can't recall any other flashbacks that Dolores would have to indicate what happned to bury the town.
posted by olya at 5:45 PM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


I finally noticed Maeve/Maze with the shot of her and the daughter in the center of the dirt maze.

I like how the Maeve story adds a simpler and easier to follow robot revolution counterpoint to the timeline-jumping dream-reality craziness of the bigger storyline. Loving every minute of this show so far.
posted by p3t3 at 6:22 PM on November 21, 2016


1. If the multiple timelines theory is right, I'm going with a comment I saw under Jezebel's post about the most recent episode: the man in black is Logan, not William.

2. Ford referenced Frankenstein this week.

Thank you! My roommate thought I was crazed when I yelled out "Frankenstein!" at that line.
posted by mediareport at 7:07 PM on November 21, 2016 [1 favorite]


Heavy.com adds a possible 4th timeline: future, which I found when looking for this image in Sizemore's workspace, where the Minotaur is featured. Heavy notes that the captions read “Act 1 Lure,” “Act 2 Incident,” and “Act 3 Assault.”
posted by filthy light thief at 7:43 PM on November 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


Gotta love the board rep and the writer going over their secret plot with the host in the room. Guess they're just seen as scenery. Pretty convenient for Ford.
posted by ODiV at 7:49 PM on November 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Also, we learn about an explosive in the hosts' spine that will detonate if they try to leave, so we have that to look forward to. Poor "dad".
posted by ODiV at 7:56 PM on November 21, 2016 [3 favorites]


If the multiple timelines theory is right, I'm going with a comment I saw under Jezebel's post about the most recent episode: the man in black is Logan, not William.

Turning-out-to-be-minor character who bears a more obvious physical and temperamental resemblance to the MiB == red herring - unless it's a twist that he is important after all.

So the William in Black is the CEO of Delos, is that right?

On the other hand I'd guess he's just some other big-time business dude? Because I don't think his story and his interest in the park is going to end up having to do directly with the Delos story or their interest, and if he was a Delos VIP it probably would. Unless the board is going behind his back as well as Ford's.
posted by atoxyl at 10:53 PM on November 21, 2016 [2 favorites]


Did anybody else go whomp whomp when a Minotaur showed up to confront Teddy and the MiB? They're in the maze, dawg.

God damn. How did I not notice that.

Heavy.com adds a possible 4th timeline: future, which I found when looking for this image in Sizemore's workspace, where the Minotaur is featured. Heavy notes that the captions read “Act 1 Lure,” “Act 2 Incident,” and “Act 3 Assault.”

Where does that put Ed Harris then. I thought he was concurrent with Maeve's awakening, or does his story take place after that. If I remember correctly she was awakened by Dolores after the Reveries update, which is concurrent with all the behind the scences stuff.

Do we know where Dolores is in MiB timeline? The flashes during the William/Dolores journey seem to say she is retracing those tracks.

I think I have to rewatch the episodes and make a timeline a la Primer to make sense of this.
posted by Megustalations at 11:55 PM on November 21, 2016


Lili Simmons is the new Clem! Yay!

I have no idea how many timelines there are at this point but it's clear there are multiple. MiB recognizing Talulah Riley in that way is the last straw.
posted by Justinian at 12:25 AM on November 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


MiB recognizing Talulah Riley in that way is the last straw.

You would think that, but it was fairly obvious. I would not be surprised if strong believers in the one timeline theory could claim MiB is some other visitor to Westworld who also happens to have seen Talulah Riley, but everthing points in that direction.
I think Will/Logan will turn out to be MiB/Wyatt or vice versa. There is too much mystery around Wyatt for it to be not connected to Will/Logan and just some random host.
posted by Megustalations at 1:19 AM on November 22, 2016


Anyone else see the scene of the techs arguing about deactivating Maeve while you could see her between them behind the glass as a 2001 reference?
posted by octothorpe at 4:31 AM on November 22, 2016 [15 favorites]


can I saw how glad I am that *these violent delights will have violent ends* guy is back. I love that actor dude.
posted by angrycat at 5:16 AM on November 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


can I saw how glad I am that 'these violent delights will have violent ends' guy is back. I love that actor dude.
posted by angrycat at 10:46 PM on November 22 [+] [!]

Oh man, not just you. Nothing in this show has been more genuinely, eerily Uncanny Valley in this show for me than that scene where he's being interviewed by Ford. I don't think the creators intended for me to come out of that scene with a burning desire to see more of that actor, above all, but there you go.
posted by pseudonymph at 5:40 AM on November 22, 2016 [12 favorites]


This episode bothered me. Too fragmented, too much confusion. It's episode 8 of 10, it's time to start paying off the story and setting hooks for the next season. But the timelines thing is only getting more confusing. And the only payoff here is we see Maeve escalate her independence further, and as folks noted above the whole thing with her manipulating the techs is increasingly implausible.

I liked that Maeve sent her friends from the Mariposa away

I saw that as a practical thing. When she gets her new Dungeon Master powers she says "time to raise an army". Then she tests her powers out (with the Bar Tab Charm). Then she clears out all the "good guys" in Sweetwater so that the safe-stealing desperadoes can come in and steal the safe in record time, with no casualties. I think those desperadoes, including Escaton and snake lady Armistice, are going to be her army. The only problem is she's trapped inside the park with no idea how to leave.

Speaking of leaving the park, I thought it was fascinating that Implausibly Young Board Woman (Charlotte Hale) wants to build a new host to smuggle a bunch of data out of the park. She explicitly asks for him to have enough personality to impersonate a guest and take the train out of the park. I guess that's the continuation of the Theresa plot line; Theresa was trying to beam data into space, Charlotte is trying to smuggle out a thumb drive. In both cases Delos is trying to get data out of the park without Ford knowing / able to stop it. It seems kinda clumsy.

The scene with Charlotte and Ford fencing was hilarious. "So... Theresa died in a mysterious accident. Right when she was stopping your plans for a new story. And now you're taking over QA, the only check on your power. And reinstating Bernard. Right, nothing strange about all that."

Also a bit confusing.. If William is the Man in Black is a major investor / CEO of Delos, then what's he doing also playing the game looking for the mystery in the middle? Couldn't he just ask his employees? But The Maze seems to be a mystery for everyone, maybe the only way to figure it out is to play it through. In some odd way the MiB is doing the same thing Charlotte is doing; trying to wrest out the secrets at the center of the park.

I find the presence of children-looking hosts in the general park population kind of worrying

Yeah, the whole point of the park is guests get to come and be depraved with no consequences. But I have to think raping a child is further than the TV show would go. There's a trope in videogames about this, in most games it is literally impossible to harm child NPCs. Like your bullets literally can't hit the child NPC models. Or they take no damage. Kind of like the guests are safe from host attacks in Westworld. But with the MiB/Maeve scene we are told the MiB shot and killed a child, so I guess there's no child NPC protection in this game.
posted by Nelson at 7:39 AM on November 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


And reinstating Bernard. Right, nothing strange about all that.

Also, that they were discussing strategic direction over Theresa's actual dead body.
posted by Burhanistan at 8:12 AM on November 22, 2016


I spent the weekend hiking in Utah, and my regular hiking locations are all in California, so this episode was super-disconcerting for me. Lots of establishing shots in Moab, Utah (near where I spent the weekend), but Teddy and the MiB are currently at Vasquez Rocks (Santa Clarita, California), and the test-run town that Dolores flashed to is Paramount Ranch (Malibu, California).
posted by Parasite Unseen at 8:14 AM on November 22, 2016 [7 favorites]


Random observation: while the hosts are in the construction hoops, don't they look like cheap plastic toys that you pop out of the plastic molding ring? Really, that's all they're meant to be.
posted by rocketman at 9:13 AM on November 22, 2016


Combining the heavy.com article with some of my own thoughts and predictions:

Thirty-five years ago Ford is building Westworld with the help of an AI ("Arnold") that is developing the hosts' programming in the "Beta" village - much like Ford says to Bernard, it's too much for a human to get a handle on, so it has to be an AI. Due to some bicameral mind stuff, the hosts (including Dolores) either go insane and a disaster occurs or are awakened to the horror of their existence and a disaster occurs. I'm leaning towards the latter.

Then 30 years ago, William and Logan of Delos Corp visit the Westworld park. The park has fallen on hard times due to the disaster 5 years ago and Delos is going to buy a lot of shares in the park.

William connected with Dolores and she had some flashbacks with him, retracing her steps back to the "Beta" town and becoming partially awakened. Unfortunately, before she is fully awakened Logan steps in and manages to "reset" her. William kills Logan, the truth of which isn't revealed until after his marriage. His wife kills herself and he gets fired/bought out of Delos.

William returns again and again to the park over the years as the Man in Black. He kills Maeve and her daughter and realizes that pain and suffering can awaken the hosts and he is attempting to find some sort of MacGuffin (in the Maze) that can awaken all the hosts without all the pain so that he can awaken Dolores. This intersects with Ford's desires to "reboot" Arnold and awaken the hosts so that his true vision as a creator of life can be acheived. Ford knows that only a host can "go through the maze" and that the MiB's quest is doomed unless he has a host with him.

Dolores partially re-awakens as a result of the MiB's interactions with her and - on her own - she relives much of her adventures with William.

I don't yet know what Charlotte and the rest of Delos are up to, or why they have abandoned the lower floors of their headquarters, or exactly who Wyatt is, or how Maeve's awakening is going to fit in to this larger story yet.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:53 AM on November 22, 2016 [16 favorites]


Could Maeve be Wyatt with her "army" as Wyatt's men? Is it possible that her awakening happens a short while before the MiB/Teddy MazeQuest storyline?
posted by Rock Steady at 11:19 AM on November 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


the question isn't really whether more than one timeframe is depicted - because there are explicit flashbacks - but whether the primary action is unfolding in more than one timeframe, no?

I don't have a strong opinion about this but I don't see how MiB recognizing Riley-host proves anything because if she was there in Dolores' flashback then it seems like she's probably been around for a lot of people to meet. But at the same time I do think her appearance across these three different stories is meant to imply a connection, if you get what I'm saying.
posted by atoxyl at 11:23 AM on November 22, 2016


Due to some bicameral mind stuff, the hosts (including Dolores) either go insane and a disaster occurs or are awakened to the horror of their existence and a disaster occurs.

I think if Armistice is the blonde who wanders away from her dancing partner in Dolores' flashback, then she might be a key to whatever disaster happens there. I think we've also seen her in Ford's exposition about Arnold and the bicameral mind stuff driving the hosts insane. Armistice from the current MiB timeline seems to be some kind of key to the Snake/Red Arroyo/Maze mythology.
posted by gladly at 12:53 PM on November 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


There's something that puzzling me, that I find hard to describe.

I think that there's been enough clues dropped to suggest that some of the more elaborate theories about the show will be paid off by the finale, and that it will indeed be made clear to us how many timelines there are and what happened in the park to cause Arnold's death.

If the writers do pay off these mysteries and they hold up, if they clues people think they've spotted turn out to be real, the sheer clockwork machinery of the story will be incredibly impressive --- there's a line in Lolita,
Quietly, the fusion took place, and everything fell into order, into the pattern of branches I have woven throughout this memoir with the express purpose of having the ripe fruit fall at the right moment...of rendering that golden and monstrous peace throught the satisfaction of logical recognition
Such moments are rare and would be admirable for the sheer difficulty.

But what's bugging me now is, why? To have spent so much effort crafting a plot with such an intricate structure --- it has a hefty price, you've got to sacrifice a lot of momentum to keep things this vague this late and allow for two hugely different interpretions of the plot. Yet I confess I have no inkling of why it's important that Dolores should have failed to rebel in the past, nor that the hosts don't merely remember, but relive, past experiences --- yet it seems the whole big arc of the show is set up to tell us that, that the robots have already tried and failed to be free, and this may have something to do with the way they remember.

Does anyone else see what I'm getting at, here? Am I nuts? As I mentioned up thread, there's definitely some thematic Dolores and William bits that are interesting and seem implicated by this structure. But I just feel like creating this mousetrap has taken up so much of the show time it's got to mean something, something about the nature of the robots or the world, but I just can't grok it.
posted by Diablevert at 3:25 PM on November 22, 2016 [6 favorites]


One potential outcome of Season 1; in the two timelines, we see parallel robot sentience revolutions. Dolores in hers, Maeve in hers. They break out, become self aware, try to protect themselves (Dolores) or shoot their way out of Westworld (Maeve). And then both fail, horribly.

That'd make for some pretty good TV.
posted by Nelson at 4:14 PM on November 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


One thing I don't think I've seen mentioned is that Teddy is starting to remember things, too-- even though he never heard the 'violent delights' code phrase.

I'm weirdly invested in Teddy right now, actually-- am I the only one? The thing I keep thinking of, with him, is that old fairy tale about the steadfast tin soldier, who fell in love with a paper ballerina. Teddy is, quite literally, a plaything, after all, but this probably isn't the kind of show where you get to take the Velveteen Rabbit route to being Real.
posted by nonasuch at 4:20 PM on November 22, 2016 [7 favorites]


I don't have a strong opinion about this but I don't see how MiB recognizing Riley-host proves anything because if she was there in Dolores' flashback then it seems like she's probably been around for a lot of people to meet. But at the same time I do think her appearance across these three different stories is meant to imply a connection, if you get what I'm saying.

I agree it's not definitive proof. I think the idea though is that if MiB and William are in the same time frame, then she's been reassigned within the last few days. Which can happen but would be pretty coincidental.
posted by mama casserole at 4:23 PM on November 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


I also think there is a chance that the Man in Black story is nothing more than a new narrative for advanced players...
posted by Rock Steady at 6:20 PM on November 22, 2016 [5 favorites]


Sorry haven't re-watched to confirm but I am sure that there was something said in this episode that makes out that Abernathy (host that is formerly Dolores' dad now to become the repository of all knowledge smuggled off-site on a train) is Wyatt. And that would make a lot of sense - he is given knowledge of what the park is and therefore starts the whole 'this doesn't belong to you, or to them, I know all' rampage.
Or am I imagining that I saw what I wanted to see/hear?
posted by Megami at 8:07 PM on November 22, 2016


The MiB got Teddy to come along with him because he told him that Wyatt had Dolores.

I thought that Dolores had gone off with William, and that the MiB was just lying based on his previous knowledge of the game.

If William and MiB are in different timeframes, then does Wyatt actually have Dolores?
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:07 PM on November 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


I agree it's not definitive proof. I think the idea though is that if MiB and William are in the same time frame, then she's been reassigned within the last few days. Which can happen but would be pretty coincidental.

Yeah that's true I guess I was thinking about it like - MiB said he had been gone from the park for a long time before he came back. But I guess he actually also said he'd been back for a year so you're right.
posted by atoxyl at 9:14 PM on November 22, 2016 [1 favorite]


It could simply be the scale of Ford's story has necessitated pulling hosts out of their usual roles to pinch-hit as it were. There's been a couple of references to the disruption he's already caused leaving gaping holes in other stories.
posted by um at 10:54 PM on November 22, 2016


I'm invested in Teddy too. Reminds me of The Tin Woodman of Oz who was (in #12 of the series) gradually dismembered by a witch (jealous spite) before becoming 100% tin and unable to love.
posted by christopherious at 10:54 PM on November 22, 2016 [3 favorites]


IM SO LATE TO THIS PARTY BUT IM GONNA SCREAM ANYWAY AND NO ONE CAN STOP ME
posted by poffin boffin at 12:44 AM on November 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


i mean first of all they're gonna have to invent some new kind of entertainment award that goes to thandie newton and no one else is ever allowed to have it
posted by poffin boffin at 12:45 AM on November 23, 2016 [17 favorites]


They can call it the "Golden Areola". It's awarded for perfect acting whilst being naked ALL THE GODDAMN TIME.
posted by elsietheeel at 12:52 AM on November 23, 2016 [10 favorites]


I quite enjoy the guessing and theorizing. It is was made LOST special to me and such a phenomenon.

i loved it until lost betrayed me with its garbage bullshit ending and now i am highly suspicious of it always and forever
posted by poffin boffin at 12:56 AM on November 23, 2016 [9 favorites]


It's awarded for perfect acting whilst being naked ALL THE GODDAMN TIME.

Whenever I watch HBO I try to count the minutes between boob shots and Westworld has not reached 5 minutes yet I think.
posted by Megustalations at 1:12 AM on November 23, 2016


I think there's a distinction to be made between nakedness and nudity (although I'm sure the makers' intent is to a certain extent prurient). Nudity is decorous and alluring, nakedness is matter-of-fact. The nude is intended to be stared at, probably with desire, the naked is not. There is a tremendous amount of nakedness in the films of Peter Greenaway, but relatively little nudity. Nakedness has a lot of symbolic value - it is the "state of nature" and represents rawness, honesty, vulnerability, purity. All of these qualities can be imputed to the hosts.

The classic image of nakedness versus nudity would be Stanley Spencer's Double Nude: The Artist and his Second Wife, also known as the leg of mutton nude.

I think the only non-host we've seen naked so far is Charlotte, FWIW, (and that scene was constructed in such a way that it was quite startling, and suggested the possibility to me that Ford has been effecting a slow-burn takeover of Delos from below) but I haven't been keeping score. This being the internet, perhaps someone has.

The tendency to confuse the two states is a problematic of the adolescent mind.

By the way, I also tried watching some episodes of Person of Interest, but it was all a bit basic for me. It's been a long time since I believed it was possible to solve any problem at all using a Good Guy With A Gun. I tried some episodes of season one and some from season three and I'm afraid anything with that episode structure just looks like Starsky and Hutch or Cannon to me these days, and I'm not going to watch nineteen episodes of that in the hopes that something interesting happens in the last four. The move to more compact, less genre-heavy, more novelistic series (this, Fargo, Better Call Saul, Netflix series, etc, etc) is one of the few real quantum leaps forwards we've seen in anything at all in the last few years.
posted by Grangousier at 1:38 AM on November 23, 2016 [7 favorites]


I like finding subthemes in each episode. There was the dick episode, where we saw a lot of dicks. (I liked that one.) Last week was the "everyone has sex with a replicant" episode. This week there seemed to be a lot of stabbing, slashing and blood.

I've said all along that the writing with Maeve and Rosencrantz and Guildenstern was weak as hell. I am 200% Team Maeve here (especially if Hector is involved) but the scenes with the techs just take me waaaaay out of the story.

The scene where Maeve slashed Sylvester's throat was creepy as hell though. The way his shock was so long and drawn out reminded me of the beginning of that terrible horror movie Ghost Ship.

Happy to see the return of Papa Abernathy.
posted by Brittanie at 2:51 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


Except you just know that Papa Abernathy is going to bite it when they try to get him out of the park. That's why we had Chekov's Spinal Bomb, right? D:
posted by tracicle at 7:02 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


I noticed how William is starting to talk about the park (and the hosts in it) in terms of what it provides him. He's never felt this way, Dolores is a key, etc.
posted by ODiV at 7:31 AM on November 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


1. Maeve deserves better than Felix and Sylvester - I mean, better narrative, more developed characters.

2. I'm team 3 timelines (at least.) Importantly, 'hosts' are outside of human time because as what his name says, "you (hosts) remember everything like it was the first time, our memories are vague..." which also suggests that they are both non-hosts. So the timelines are based around human characters. I think each human character/groups of characters are in their own timeline. There's an instance of MiB in the Delos/behind the scenes timeline -I think episode 2- but otherwise - William and Logan (in the past, but after Dolores' first freak out). Ford vs. Delos (Ford's new big story is Wyatt, has not been finished yet,) lastly the MiB following the maze timeline.

3. Bernard couldn't have killed Elsie because he was trying to reach here when she get's 'snatched,' right? So who did he flash to when he asked Ford if Ford had him kill before?

4. I don't see Maeve's story ending well but wow do I hope it does... The first time they go to Perdition Dolores asks herself (with the Tarot cards) if she is 'unraveling' and she finds that loose 'thread under her skin... I think the hosts might be pretty maintenance intensive and how can Maeve do that out in the world? Sigh. I can't see Maeve Dolores Bernard as 'human' and think it's weird when William is all lovey- dovey.
posted by From Bklyn at 8:58 AM on November 23, 2016


Except you just know that Papa Abernathy is going to bite it when they try to get him out of the park. That's why we had Chekov's Spinal Bomb, right? D:

This doesn't make sense to me. How would two low-level techs know about the spine bomb, but the head of story for all of Delos *not* know?
posted by leotrotsky at 9:29 AM on November 23, 2016 [2 favorites]


How would two low-level techs know about the spine bomb, but the head of story for all of Delos *not* know?

Because they're getting dirty hands pulling bullets from the hosts, reassembling them, and getting them ready for re-deployment. The head of story does what, exactly, that requires knowledge of their anatomy?

The janitors *always* know the secrets. Have you never seen Election?
posted by rocketman at 9:42 AM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


This doesn't make sense to me. How would two low-level techs know about the spine bomb, but the head of story for all of Delos *not* know?

Silos. The pissing matches shown between Delos QA and Programming are symptomatic of this problem and will be familiar to almost anyone who's worked in a large company. Does Story need to know about fail-safes to do their job, after all (especially Sizemore who is complacent and entitled)? It's more surprising that Charlotte doesn't know, not because she is on the board, but because she is plotting to smuggle information out and should have done some research.

It sometimes seems amazing how much information is not shared internally in an organization, but in reality it takes considerable effort to keep everyone informed at the level they need to be (over-communication leads to people ignoring messages due to overload, and is just as bad as withholding information).
posted by cardboard at 9:48 AM on November 23, 2016 [6 favorites]


Maeve seems to be the Daenerys Targaryen of this show: you root for her because she's awesome, even as it becomes increasingly clear she is a terrifying individual who will reign down an unholy wrath, most likely becoming a monster in the process.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:29 AM on November 23, 2016 [11 favorites]



1. Maeve deserves better than Felix and Sylvester - I mean, better narrative, more developed characters.


I had a grand suspicion that gathered mass and shape last night - the outside world in the series is a Brave-New-World scenario. Evidence:

-MiB talks at length with Ford about how the outside world is free from strife, everyone is healthy and fed and maintained in a utopian-esque situation

-Felix and Syl and the nameless tech that Elsie blackmails to get access to the axman all seem like bumbling idiots to some extent, despite their technical aptitude in certain tasks. Syl goes on a lengthy rant at Felix about how F is a butcher and will never be anything else, and striving to better himself is something that 'personality tests should have weeded out in the embryo'... an allusion to the fact that they are somewhat genegineered to fill specific manual labor roles?

-If the first-gen cabin hosts are an accurate representation of Ford's childhood, that would make him a ten year old in like 1930 or '40, and probably 120+ years old today (note that the 35-year-old tech in Basement 82 is off-the-shelf keyboards and monitors you could buy today vs the folding cyberpads everyone uses normally, which likely makes the most currently timeline take place around 2050-2060). This could mean Ford's a host as well, but it's just as likely that genegineering has extended his lifespan dramatically when it became available - likely through Delos' bio-work that moved the park from mechanical to organic hosts.

-This also addresses the whole 'implausibly young board member Hale' - she's the 1% of the 1%, and has access to all the medical tech that Delos is designing... I wouldn't be surprised if she's actually 50 years old or more. Ford's appearance compared to hers could be attributed to the fact that gene tech didn't develop until much later in his life, or could be a deliberate affectation to suit his anachronistic style in general

Soooo yeah... just wanted to braindump this in one concise spot. Seems viable to me..
posted by FatherDagon at 10:51 AM on November 23, 2016 [16 favorites]


Oh, and of course Bernard is one of the main characters *in* Brave New World, and the religion of choice in that novel is Fordism - to celebrate the creator of the assembly line...
posted by FatherDagon at 10:54 AM on November 23, 2016 [29 favorites]


"the outside world in the series is a Brave-New-World scenario"

yeah, and soon to be subject to a Maeve-New-World scenario, you know what I'm sayin?
posted by komara at 10:58 AM on November 23, 2016 [16 favorites]


I'd totally believe that implausibly young board member hale is actually old. In episode 7 she says
Few things surprise me anymore, Mr. Lowe, but this level of negligence is fucking breathtaking.
That seems like an old person's line to me.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:19 AM on November 23, 2016 [5 favorites]


This is a great recap of the maze over on /r/westworld.

Thorough but to the point, lots of direct quotes and the only "theorizing" comes toward the end without much straw grasping.

This actually reads like something from Metafilter; was this one of you?
posted by Tevin at 11:50 AM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]


If the first-gen cabin hosts are an accurate representation of Ford's childhood, that would make him a ten year old in like 1930 or '40, and probably 120+ years old today

I always thought it was just a version of his family themed for the park.
posted by atoxyl at 1:01 PM on November 23, 2016


and that the "Ford's dad" in the "Arnold" photo is the same host (one of the first, a gift to Ford from Arnold) - not Ford's actual dad
posted by atoxyl at 1:02 PM on November 23, 2016 [1 favorite]


But my point is that the anachronism of that tableau could just be for the purpose of fitting into Westworld and thus maybe shouldn't be taken too seriously.
posted by atoxyl at 1:04 PM on November 23, 2016


But my point is that the anachronism of that tableau could just be for the purpose of fitting into Westworld and thus maybe shouldn't be taken too seriously.

I doesn't fit into the park, though. It's been bugging me, too, I posted in one of the other threads about it. Racked had an interview with one of the Westworld costume designers where she said that Ford himself is very consciously dressed in mid- to late-19th century period of the park --- waistcoat, pocket watch and fob, the works.

The cottage and the Ford bot family are in a completely different period --- Cornwall, somewhere between the world wars, I'd say. The mom shows it best --- that outfit's no later than the 1950s, max. It's definitely not any point in the 19th century. And Ford says they're meant to evoke his only happy childhood memory.

But the thing is, Ford is the only character we've seen age --- they went to great lengths to show us that when the park was being constructed, 35 years ago, he was a young man.

If Ford was supposed to be the same age as the actor Anthony Hopkins, the cottage might fit. But that would mean the park was begun in the 1970s -- the tech seems far too advanced for that. If we take it that the park was begun in the early 21st centruy, then Ford would have been a child in the 1980s or 90s. And Corwall may be behind the times, but no kid was wearing knickerbockers in the 1980s. If Ford is meant to be a 120-odd, why did he look mid-thirtyish, 35 years ago?
posted by Diablevert at 2:24 PM on November 23, 2016 [6 favorites]


Maeve seems to be the Daenerys Targaryen of this show: you root for her because she's awesome, even as it becomes increasingly clear she is a terrifying individual who will reign down an unholy wrath, most likely becoming a monster in the process.

Also they're the most naked.

Maybe that's the catalyst!
posted by elsietheeel at 2:59 PM on November 23, 2016 [4 favorites]




Oh, a thought: “It caught the rabbit and it killed it. And then... someone told me to put it out of its misery. A voice. Arnold. He told me it was a killer, but it wasn't its fault. It was made that way, and I could help it. If it was dead, it couldn't hurt anything anymore.”

Arnold's talking about people, isn't he? And he already used a host to 'help' himself.
posted by leotrotsky at 5:44 PM on November 23, 2016 [3 favorites]


I've become skeptical of the 2 timeline theory - unless the editing is *really* lying to us, Dolores staggered into William's camp after the bandits-at-the-house happened and she freaked out, killing a bandit. During that event, she had flashbacks to the MiB and also glitched and saw both of the Abernathy fathers. It also came after Teddy talked about Wyatt. The MiB's trip around also post-dated Wyatt's introduction to the storyline, though, since in his conversation with Armistice (the woman with the tattoo), she said it was Wyatt who had killed her family and townsfolk.

There's some time difference between MiB first dragging Dolores off in the first episode and William showing up, I think - the side-quest solicitations are different. William sees Union soldiers which are different compared to Sweetwater we've seen previously in the show. But I'm beginning to think that William's trip to the park is some period of time after the MiB comes back to the park and starts stirring shit up. There's definitely some time difference among the events we're seeing in various plot threads - we're seeing the MiB encountering characters that William et al also encounter in a different state. But I don't necessarily buy the 30 year difference any more. (I may change my mind again, perhaps after new plot elements get uploaded to me.)
posted by rmd1023 at 6:02 AM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Most of the William-Timeline flashbacks Dolores was having were back to the Arnold incident a few years prior, where she was coerced into shooting Arnold and a pile of other hosts at that training camp complex (which likely led to the policy change where the hosts are now conditioned in a much more rigorous fashion inside the facility in a secure location, like Maeve sees).
posted by FatherDagon at 12:37 PM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


I'm skeptical of multiple-timelines theories basically because they've already shown how different the early hosts were - Michael Wincott as the chatty old guy in the sub-basement, with his odd mechanical tics and audibly-whirring innards. Maybe Dolores was originally like that and has since been upgraded, but the Dolores with the MiB seems basically the same as the Dolores with William.
posted by um at 5:55 PM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Skimming through this thread as I only just got to watch it, so I am sorry if this has been brought up before, but has Arnold ever been confirmed as male? Arnold could be a surname. Could Arnold be a woman then?
posted by arha at 8:57 PM on November 24, 2016 [3 favorites]


Fake little boy Ford was mechanical, but very believable. This was clearly shown in the previous episode.
posted by arha at 8:59 PM on November 24, 2016


Now I have to go back and watch to see which pronouns Ford uses when talking about Arnold!? And also check out everyone's outfits!?

... No, I'm not looking for an excuse to rewatch the show. Why would you think that?
posted by ODiV at 9:14 PM on November 24, 2016 [1 favorite]


Ford asks if Dolores can "still hear him talking" so I think Arnold's definitely either a 'he' or an 'it'
posted by percor at 6:44 AM on November 25, 2016


I was totally on board with "30 year split in plot threads" before rewatching a couple of early episodes, but if that's what they're doing, they're managing a hell of a level of 'lying with editing' deceit. (The level of deceit of the establishing shot fake-out in "Silence of the Lambs" repeated multiple times per episode, I think). I am conflicted. Soon I will glitch over the internal confusion.

ENLIGHTEN ME, SHOW. BRING IT ON WITH THE NEXT TWO EPISODES.
posted by rmd1023 at 7:54 AM on November 25, 2016


they're managing a hell of a level of 'lying with editing' deceit

Oh absolutely.

Dolores in the Lawrence's family's town with William and Logan. Cut to command centre:
"Dolores is off her loop."
"Is she with a guest?"
"That's unclear" *wink*
posted by ODiV at 8:29 AM on November 25, 2016 [5 favorites]


I have been thoroughly enjoying David Chen and Joanna Robinson's weekly podcast Decoding Westworld, and this week's show was wonderful. They interviewed one of this episode's writers, Charles Yu (who wrote How to Live Safely in a Science Fiction Universe) and had probably about the most comprehensible discussion they could have had about possible multiple timelines and other narrative trickery without Yu violating any NDA he might be under.

So far, I haven't been able to get my husband to watch the show with me, but he's a faithful podcast listener. So if I do manage to strap him to the couch and prop open his eyelids, he's going to be ready.
posted by bibliowench at 9:36 AM on November 25, 2016 [1 favorite]


I am rewatching episode 2 and 3. Lots of comments coming.

  • Taluluh Riley's host that welcomes William is completely aware of the robot life ("you can't kill anyone you're not supposed to", "how far you go is entirely up to you").
    If she ends up a host within the park, is it possible she still remembers and is aware of all the things that the guests can do, it would be devastating if she gains full self awareness, right?

  • Also, not sure if this is accidental or not: when Dolores is having her flashback on the street (where she then says "these violent delights have violent ends"), her hair within the flashback is different from the moment of when she's standing on the street.

  • OMG. "There is something else bothering you Bernard. I know how that head of yours works.".

  • so Bernard and Dolores are in the basement and he says that she is thinking differently, and he finds that fascinating. there is no way host-Bernard could be in the basement - he literally didn't know it was there. IMHO this is a solid indicator Bernard is Arnold.

  • omg omg omg Ford and the kid interacting knowing what we know is a total delight.



  • Episode 3 notes:
  • Teddy gets Wyatt uploaded into him and we are shown a dude (that I can't recall in any other narratives), white, with a beard, shooting someone. Is that Wyatt? This seems to be same actor, later scene.

  • Wyatt's men: "they've already died and gone to hell" - ex-hosts?

  • definitely something about Wyatt's narrative being uploaded into Teddy as he retells it to the crew that travels with him.

  • posted by olya at 7:20 PM on November 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


    Oh my god, there is a flash to the dance in the old town, in episode 3. It's totally in the context of "Arnold wanted to create consciousness".
    posted by olya at 8:00 PM on November 26, 2016 [3 favorites]


    Did anybody else go whomp whomp when a Minotaur showed up to confront Teddy and the MiB? They're in the maze, dawg.

    God damn. How did I not notice that. 


    Did you notice the labrys?
    posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:56 PM on November 26, 2016 [2 favorites]


    While Arnold is definitely referred to as male, I was wondering whether Wyatt might be Maeve - the only character who has explicitly gone in search of an army. Here is an army which uses her trademark sharp implements (which suggests that they understand the limitations on what their guns can do to guests, and also that they're not opposed to hurting guests). This would mean that the MiB's life is suddenly going to get a lot more interesting. I also wonder whether Wyatt's army is made up entirely of the retired (it's not as if anyone's really paying any attention to them, and Ford is in and out of that cold store all the time).
    posted by Grangousier at 2:38 AM on November 27, 2016 [3 favorites]


    That, 'Maeve's Army ' is a really toothsome theory as it implies Ford is behind Maeve's awakening - or if not behind it is responding to it by exploiting it.
    posted by From Bklyn at 2:49 AM on November 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


    I suspect within 24 hours we'll know one way or the other (and given my usual success at theorising, I it will probably be the other), but given that it was Ford who debriefed Maeve after the incident with the MiB, perhaps he saw then that she had potential.
    posted by Grangousier at 3:26 AM on November 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Fake little boy Ford was mechanical, but very believable. This was clearly shown in the previous episode.

    Two theories here:

    1. The old man bartender hasn't been maintained/adjusted/tweaked in super long. It's been mentioned more than once that the mechanical hosts were a lot more expensive and complex to maintain. What's to say the bartender isn't just still running, but not in great shape?

    2. Perhaps the bartender is the best Ford could do at the time, and the family is the best Arnold could do.

    After them specially calling out that Ford maintains the family himself continuously, and the mention of the old style hosts needing a lot of maintenance... I think#1 is buyable enough to me. Especially since the bartender is in storage. #2 is a bit silly, but intriguing. What if Ford was never all that good at this?
    posted by emptythought at 7:07 AM on November 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


    Did anyone else already point out that the host that served as William's initial guide was also the same actress as the host that was actually a member of Wyatt's gang and stabbed Teddy? And that the MiB said "I thought they would have retired you by now."?
    posted by Burhanistan at 3:56 PM on November 27, 2016


    Did anyone else already point out that

    Yes.
    posted by rocketman at 5:38 PM on November 27, 2016 [1 favorite]


    So maybe someone else noticed this. I was rewatching last week to prep for this one and I realized something. While Maeve's memory is wiped when her daughter "dies", the bullet in her abdomen isn't removed. We know this because Elsie notices Maeve has "some discomfort" and it's only when to felix and sylvester for bullet removal she awakes. Somebody heeded Maeve's request to have some memory of her child's death AND LEFT IT THERE. he lodging of it brought her to life and the attempt to remove it reawakened her.
    posted by miss-lapin at 6:13 PM on November 27, 2016 [2 favorites]


    My biggest question from this episode is if Ms. Hale selected Abernathy deliberately to be the courier for her data; she seemed to walk directly to him, bypassing so many other hosts. He is certainly an interesting choice, given that he is a carrier of the self-aware Violent Delights virus and has such a violent backstory.

    Also, we learn about an explosive in the hosts' spine that will detonate if they try to leave, so we have that to look forward to. Poor "dad".

    I definitely got the impression he was chosen deliberately. Why, I don't know. Maybe he doesn't have the spinal bomb? When he found that photo of the outside world, he could see it, unlike Dolores. Maybe Charlotte knows about that incident from Theresa, and she thinks that there's something weird about Abernathy that will enable him to actually escape?

    Sizemore is careless enough to know about the spinal bombs, but someone who'se a high-ranking Delos board member must know about them. Maybe Charlotte had Theresa remove or disable his as a contingency plan in case the satellite thing didn't work?

    And, it's all well and good to have Bernard kill Theresa and manipulate a bunch of emotions out of us, but to so quickly show that he may have done the same to Elsie? I have a feeling that's a massive misdirect, because Bernard had just gotten off the phone with her, from (I assume) pretty far away, just before it happened.

    You're right, that is odd. Then again, wasn't he standing next to an elevator when taking that call? An elevator leading up to the dollhouse, maybe...

    Anyone else see the scene of the techs arguing about deactivating Maeve while you could see her between them behind the glass as a 2001 reference?

    Yes! That was a nice easter egg.

    While Arnold is definitely referred to as male, I was wondering whether Wyatt might be Maeve - the only character who has explicitly gone in search of an army.

    So, the Wyatt storyline that Ford wrote is very meta. Wyatt's men can't die from bullets, like the Guests. Wyatt hears a voice from God, like the bicameral mind. And Wyatt has an army, like Maeve is building.

    Since we're all taking the idea of multiple time frames seriously, it seems not at all unreasonable that the "Ford's New Storyline" plot takes place after Maeve's rebellion and Ford's new storyline is an amalgam of that event with Dolores' awakening.

    Aside from all the plot/timey-wimey speculation, I loved the conversation between Ford and Bernard about what separates the Hosts from real, true humans. Particularly, Ford's insistence that there isn't any separation after all. I really, really loved that scene.

    Among other things, it highlights a key resonance between Ford and MiB. MiB believed that the hosts weren't "real", that you could do whatever you wanted to them without consequence, and that freedom reveals the true nature of the people who go to the park. One day he discovers by accident that the hosts actually can experience "true" emotions, under certain circumstances, but it doesn't change his behaviour. Whereas Ford believes that the hosts' emotions are just as real as human emotions, except for the fact that you can erase them; but, critically, he doesn't seem to care about human life any more than he does about the lives of the hosts. It's an interesting complexity. They're both of them sociopaths, but they arrive at that dark place in totally different ways.
    posted by tobascodagama at 6:25 PM on December 3, 2016 [3 favorites]


    « Older Star Wars Rebels: Iron Squadro...   |  The Walking Dead: Go Getters... Newer »

    You are not logged in, either login or create an account to post comments

    poster