Saw a preview showing of this last night, and it was soooo good.

I love a murder mystery, especially a funny one, and Rian Johnson knocks it out of the park with this one. Lots of comparisons to Agatha Christie in the reviews, which is fair, but it reminded me most vividly of The Westing Game . (That last link is just to a Wikipedia summary, but if you like fun murder mysteries and don't mind a middle grade novel, you should just go read The Westing Game if you somehow haven't already.

I thought they played with detective troupes really well and came up with a plot that was fun and twisty without being convoluted. Loved the performances, especially Ana De Armas - but it seemed like everyone was having a blast, which I think is a necessary component of a good caper film.

There is some vomiting, which I do not love in movies, but, weirdly, it is character and plot relevant vomiting, so I got over it.

I'll come back later - I have a conspiracy theory I don't want to detail in the very first comment, among other things I still want to squeal about later.

Oh, and they use Spanish dubbed Murder, She Wrote footage! It was great.
posted by the primroses were over at 6:26 AM on November 23, 2019 [13 favorites]

oooh if this is like The Westing Game I definitely want to see it!!
posted by supermedusa at 10:02 AM on November 23, 2019

There's an old Choose Your Own Adventure book called Who Killed Harlowe Thrombey? Which I know of, thanks to it being covered by the podcast, Finish It.

The name is so similar, and it's such a weird name. I'd really like to know if there's any other connection between the movie and the book.
posted by meese at 8:31 PM on November 23, 2019 [12 favorites]

Doesn’t come out here til Thursday and I am excited to see it but was waiting with trepidation for the reviews. Glad to hear it’s as fun as it looks!
posted by arha at 3:37 AM on November 24, 2019

This is a very dangerous thread to read if you haven’t seen the film.
posted by roger ackroyd at 2:31 PM on November 24, 2019 [7 favorites]

This movie was just so much fun! There were several moments when the entire theater started laughing, and I think I heard clapping at the end. A wholly satisfying whodunnit and a bit of send-up of classic mystery tropes and relevant social commentary all in one entertaining package.
posted by peacheater at 2:27 PM on November 27, 2019 [5 favorites]

This was a lot of fun! My family loves, loves, loves Clue, and we loved this. Such a fun Thanksgiving movie. The entire cast was great, but, whoa!, we were so impressed with Daniel Craig. He was delightful.
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 2:33 PM on November 27, 2019 [1 favorite]

This was a beautiful celebration of menswear and the murder mystery genre and also somehow a roasting of me, personally.
posted by The Whelk at 6:36 PM on November 27, 2019 [46 favorites]

What fun! I saw it last night and now I'm bummed no one in my family had seen it so I can't talk about it
posted by Carillon at 1:17 PM on November 28, 2019

I guess the trick to beating Harlan Thrombey at Go is the same as beating Sirna Kolrami at Strategema.

Several of the rooms in that house reminded me of this tweet.
posted by ckape at 8:10 PM on November 28, 2019 [5 favorites]

Johnson collaborated with the Alamo Drafthouse on a program of films that inspired Knives Out: Alamo Drafthouse website link. I haven't seen all of these, so notes for further viewing.
posted by the primroses were over at 7:24 AM on November 29, 2019 [7 favorites]

I'll come back later - I have a conspiracy theory I don't want to detail in the very first comment, among other things I still want to squeal about later.

I wanna hear it!

I enjoyed Knives Out a lot -- stylish, funny, cutting. I'm thinking about this movie in connection with Get Out, Arrested Development, Gosford Park, and other films/TV about rich white families, their houses, and their entitlement.
posted by brainwane at 10:39 AM on November 29, 2019 [7 favorites]

I also enjoyed the film, and would recommend it. The only thing that dampened my enthusiasm is that the plot is so convoluted that it takes Daniel Craig almost 20 minutes (I didn't time it, so it might have been more) to explain how who did what to whom. But that's immediately followed by a plot twist and a clever visual gag, so at least we're kept occupied.

By the way, according to this, Johnson and Craig had so much fun with Craig's detective that they intend to make more movies with him. Whether that will actually happen is anyone's guess, but it could be a lot of fun.
posted by ubiquity at 1:10 PM on November 29, 2019 [7 favorites]

I loved this! I'm a sucker for this genre as I count Clue and Gosford Park among my most beloved films. Nevertheless, I thought each performer knocked their respective parts right out of the park. I was pleasantly surprised by how funny Daniel Craig and Chris Baker were, in particular.
posted by MoonOrb at 9:25 PM on November 29, 2019 [1 favorite]

Chris Evans, not some other guy named Chris Evans. The Fantastic Four guy, you all know who I mean.
posted by MoonOrb at 9:33 PM on November 29, 2019 [3 favorites]

I have a conspiracy theory - when Marta told Harlan that she’d mixed up the vials, he knew she was wrong, but he wanted an epic murder mystery death, so he seized the opportunity.
posted by misfish at 9:43 PM on November 29, 2019 [36 favorites]

Not epic murder mystery death, but “I’ll make a situation that will destory my horrible family” it works even if he thought the injection was real.
posted by The Whelk at 10:10 PM on November 29, 2019 [5 favorites]

Well, he’s already pretty much completed his plan to destroy the family. Dying right then after he’d handled everything seems perfect. Maybe he was trying to provoke one of them to try and kill him, even?
posted by misfish at 10:35 PM on November 29, 2019

I kept wondering if Marta and Meg were a couple, in fact I'm still wondering.
posted by emjaybee at 11:27 PM on November 29, 2019 [11 favorites]

I kept wondering if Marta and Meg were a couple, in fact I'm still wondering.

That scene near the end where they hug, and then Meg smiles...I though "Ok, now kiss!"
posted by Gorgik at 3:20 AM on November 30, 2019 [1 favorite]

I loved it, as did Kitteh -- we could have done without the Thanksgiving dinner argument lean-in at the midpoint, but that was only a very faint blemish (and we get the thematic relevance) in a pretty impeccable movie.

Comparing notes at the end, we both believed up til the midpoint that Harlan might have faked his own death somehow, trying to live out his final great mystery instead of just committing one to the page -- swapped out the morphine for water and faked the 'suicide,' with Meg in on it -- but this was better.

Getting up this morning we both agreed it's the most fun we've had in the theatre in a while; just the pleasure of seeing a well-made watch tick away. Daniel Craig also having the most fun with a Southern accent since The Ladykillers and Tom Hanks devouring entire chunks of scenery with fanatical gusto.
posted by Shepherd at 5:23 AM on November 30, 2019 [6 favorites]

It's odd that it hasn't been more widely noted that the film is essentially a satire on modern America culture - on the one hand White Middle Class America, ranged from the nazi on one hand to the SJW on the other and all shades in between, at each others throats until their privilege is threatened at which point they all close ranks (Meg may feel guilty about selling Marta out - or at least say she does - but that doesn't stop her selling Marta out). On the other hand there's Marta, obviously, Fran (the Help), the two detectives (of whom one is black), and Benoit Blanc. Ransom sneers at Blanc for his accent (the KFC line which also perhaps mis-origins him, the way they are constantly doing with Marta. After all, with a French name, surely he's from Louisiana, though I may be doing it myself there, I'm only conjecturing). What plays out from there is a battle between privilege and its civilities and everybody else.

"The money is ours. We worked for it. We made it." No it isn't, and you didn't. The scene where Walt corners Marta in the corridor and says "We'll help you - we have the resources to make it all right" and she replies "No, I have the resources, they're mine now", was one of those lines you hope people in films will say, and usually they don't, and I was silently cheering in my seat.

(I don't know about the other detective, who's obviously a white guy, but there might be some tell in something he says or does to suggest he's non-U.)

Actually, it's not so much I whodunnit - I realised most of the solution while it was playing out - but a social satire in the clothes of a whodunnit (not an ignoble tradition - Sleuth immediately springs to mind). The pleasure is watching the characters and seeing (spoilers) Marta win out.

I hope Rian Johnson doesn't waste his time making more Star Wars movies. His resources are much better spent on films like this. Certainly, I'd be perfectly happy for Daniel Craig to trade in the James Bond series for a putative Benoit Blanc series.

(The accent seems to be the same one he developed for Logan Lucky. I have no idea how authentic it is, but it sure is fun watching him do it.)
posted by Grangousier at 9:41 AM on November 30, 2019 [39 favorites]

Benoit telling the horrible spoiled children of inherited wealth “this time you don’t get bailed out!” made me go ping! Zeitgeist!
posted by The Whelk at 9:47 AM on November 30, 2019 [8 favorites]

A couple more things:

The trailer and the whole vibe suggested something much cleverer and tricksier than it actually is - as I say, I got all the clues as they came up and they were hardly hidden, it was halfway to Columbo - but if it had been vertiginous stunt plotting (The Last of Sheila, say), I don't think it would have been half as much fun.

About the family-as-the-American-Middle-Class: also, perhaps, worth noting that you have the pre-Boomer (85 is probably too young to be actual Great Generation) who built it all, the Boomers who think they did (but, in fact, just inherited it from Dad), the sardonic Gen-X-er (who realises it's all just privilege and is keen to make sure the privilege is shored up, at least for him), and the Millenials for whom the privilege is just air.

I mean, to me, it's looking as much J.B. Priestley as Agatha Christie.
posted by Grangousier at 11:14 AM on November 30, 2019 [10 favorites]

I love that the film begins and ends with the same "mug shot."

We loved it and the whole (nearly-full) theatre applauded at the end- I cannot remember when that last happened.
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 5:01 PM on November 30, 2019 [20 favorites]

Just saw it. Really enjoyed it and don't have a whole lot to add to the discussion that hasn't already been touched on. My theater was also nearly full and had a bit of clapping at the end, so that's apparently a trend happening with this movie. This would be an interesting pairing with Brick for a Rian Johnson murder mystery movie night.
posted by acidnova at 5:40 PM on November 30, 2019

I saw it yesterday and really enjoyed it, which wasn't a surprise as the genre is right in my sweet spot, and I've actually been reading a ton of golden age detective stuff at the moment. It's mostly about watching these great actors have so much fun inhabiting the characters with the backdrop of that incredible house (I want to know how long it took the set dressers to find everything, and where, and can I have some of it?). I loved Chris Evans leaning into charismatic asshole, I loved Jamie Lee Curtis' pantsuits, I loved how freaking charismatic Christopher Plummer still is, and I loved the little knife sticks that the script lets happen so quietly that you can almost miss them but you don't. I'd definitely go see this again in the theater. Just a real quiet pleasure.
posted by PussKillian at 6:33 PM on November 30, 2019 [5 favorites]

I have a conspiracy theory - when Marta told Harlan that she’d mixed up the vials, he knew she was wrong, but he wanted an epic murder mystery death, so he seized the opportunity.

It seems like the biggest unexplained aspect of the story. My take on it was that Harlan had a suspicion about being murdered, and had a further suspicion about Marta being framed. He must have realized early on that he wasn't poisoned by morphine (something a meticulous crime writer might already be aware of), but began concocting a plan in his head where Marta is removed from being a suspect, and thereby no longer has a target on her back. So long as he and Marta both live, there's a huge incentive for Ransom to either a) go to the family with what he knows and rally support, or b) frame Marta for his murder (maybe even convinced the family to go along). Even if the poison switch fails, it's difficult to impossible to prove that there was either ill intent or that it was Ransom behind it. So he makes a split second decision to end a life that he doesn't seem that attached to any longer, especially with his disappointment in how his progeny have turned out.

My own conspiracy theory is that Harlan was actually getting his stories either from Blanc, or from Blanc's father. Some of them anyway.
posted by codacorolla at 8:37 PM on November 30, 2019 [13 favorites]

One thing I didn't understand was why Fran arranged the secret meeting with Ransom at all. Why didn't she just go directly to the cops about what she had seen?
posted by Sangermaine at 10:16 PM on November 30, 2019 [5 favorites]

My own conspiracy theory is that Harlan was actually getting his stories either from Blanc, or from Blanc's father. Some of them anyway.

Benoit Blanc, eccentric dandy Southern detective, does seem exactly the sort of character who would appear in an endless series of mystery novels.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:20 PM on November 30, 2019 [13 favorites]

This movie is the most fun thing I've seen in the theater in a while. I'm looking forward to watching it again. The interrogation scenes were wonderfully cut, but my favorite part had to be the doughnut hole in a doughnut speech with the officer, out of focus, making gesticulating in the background.

After the first Marta reveal, I really thought the movie was going to be a 100% screwball comedy about keeping Benoit Blanc from discovering the truth and that Marta was going to find out that she hadn't actually switched the bottles/Harlan faked his death or that Marta was going to let Ransom take the fall in the end (which would have been less satisfying, probably). It just took too long for Harlan to die without showing any symptoms.

(I also thought that Benoit Blanc was going to drop the accent at the end for Daniel Craig's real accent)

My theater wasn't full - to be fair, I also saw it during a snowstorm and the roads were shit. But there was a lot of laughter and some clapping at the end.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:10 AM on December 1, 2019 [5 favorites]

One thing I didn't understand was why Fran arranged the secret meeting with Ransom at all. Why didn't she just go directly to the cops about what she had seen?

I think she wanted to get paid; my sense was that she resented the entire family, too, and wanted her own slice of that fortune. I didn’t think that part was very well developed.

Also: what an amazing collection of sweaters.
posted by MoonOrb at 7:38 AM on December 1, 2019 [13 favorites]

The sweaters were perfect. Ransom's Aran sweater with the unraveled cuff, Marta's synthetic ones that don't fit quite right, it was great.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:14 AM on December 1, 2019 [16 favorites]

The Massachusetts aspects were also perfect. I have been in houses like that. I went to prep school with people in those sweaters. I have eaten doughnuts.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:16 AM on December 1, 2019 [24 favorites]

That aran sweater had me internally screaming, "Marta! Don't trust him!" I can't say exactly what it is but that sweater was absolutely perfect for that character. Outwardly charming but a total scumbag.
posted by acidnova at 9:30 AM on December 1, 2019 [14 favorites]

Even the font for the credits and captions was perfect.
posted by The corpse in the library at 9:40 AM on December 1, 2019 [12 favorites]

my favorite part had to be the doughnut hole in a doughnut speech with the officer, out of focus, making gesticulating in the background.

YES!!!
posted by I_Love_Bananas at 10:02 AM on December 1, 2019 [12 favorites]

I didn’t think “the nurse has a drop of her patient’s blood on her shoe” was the big deal the movie set it up to be, though.
posted by The corpse in the library at 11:33 AM on December 1, 2019

The Star Wars / Knives Out crossover meme we all needed. (Contains a gentle spoiler for the existence of a character in The Mandalorian!)
posted by bcwinters at 1:15 PM on December 1, 2019 [4 favorites]

Did Ransom ever confess to switching the medications? I only remember him confessing to the murder of the house keeper.
posted by meese at 1:18 PM on December 1, 2019

Just saw this last night and had an absolute ball. I mean, I went because I'm a ridiculous hige Captain America fan and I have loved Craig for years, but the rest of the cast was a big draw as well, especially Jaime Lee Curtis, Christopher Plummer, Lakeith Standfield, and Don Johnson. (I'm really enjoying the Don Johnson rennaissance lately, and no movie where Michael Shannon gets to be a little unhinged could be bad, if you ask me.)

We had to go for drinks afterward, because my friend had seen it once, and there was a lot I missed because the whole small theatre I saw it at was laughing so much, or I was. I needed it explained to me why Harlan really did kill himself if he wasn't actually poisoned, I got a little lost on the rambling explanation, but I like the explanation above about him wanting to go out on a perfect murder mystery death after tidying up with his family.

Craig was flamazing, and Ana de Armis was someone I'd never seen before but fell instantly in love with. All last night, and today, I've been wandering around laughing till I cry every time I think of "the Nazi child masturbating in the bathroom."

I loved the reveal of the mug at the end, but I swear, that whole scene in the car with Marta and Benoit was making me stressed, because it seemed like Chekhov's barf cup and I kept waiting for him to drink from it.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 4:06 PM on December 1, 2019 [29 favorites]

I don't know if Marta will be able to hold strong against the pressure to license adaptations, considering that murder mysteries are apparently all that her family watches.
posted by ckape at 4:07 PM on December 1, 2019 [17 favorites]

Comparing notes at the end, we both believed up til the midpoint that Harlan might have faked his own death somehow, trying to live out his final great mystery instead of just committing one to the page

Yeah, my conspiracy theory alluded to in my first comment would be that I am a "Harlan Thrombey is still alive" truther. I don't know how he got the police/ME in on it - he's super rich, whatever, *hand waving* - but I think it is highly suspicious that he blew up his relationships with half his family like a week after a famous private detective he has an in with was featured in a publication he knows multiple people in his family follow (at least on Twitter). He makes a comment to Marta shortly before cutting his own throat about knowing the difference between prop knives and real ones (granted, this pays out at the end with a different character mistaking one for the other, but so what!). I'll have to watch it again - I feel like I had more justifications for my insane hobby horse immediately after viewing. I think I found the timing of Grandma Thrombey's chuckle during Blanc's recital of events to the family significant, but I no longer remember why...

Anyway, I think the text of the movie makes clear that Harlan just saw his chance to have some fun with his death and took it, but I loved that character and refuse to believe he is gone. He definitely gets in touch with Marta, apologizes for putting her through that, and gets their Go games happening again after the credits roll, and I will hear no differently.

By the way, according to this, Johnson and Craig had so much fun with Craig's detective that they intend to make more movies with him. Whether that will actually happen is anyone's guess, but it could be a lot of fun.

My dream sequel would end with Blanc recounting his tale to Harlan, revealing that both mine and codacorolla's theories are correct - Harlan is now writing the Benoit Blanc mysteries under a pen name.

I love that the film begins and ends with the same "mug shot."

I think making this movie center around Marta was a great choice. I liked how zany the film was overall and enjoyed how much fun all the actors were having with their types, but I think it worked because Marta felt like a real person stuck in this insane mess (ok, a real person with one slap stick and plot convenient quirk). Ana de Armas' performance was excellent.

This Crime Reads review goes into some detail about the how the choice to make Marta the protagonist enhances both the murder mystery and social commentary aspects of the narrative.

My favorite part of the ending though, is that we're left wondering what Marta is going to do with her inheritance. Blanc has a line, that I wish I could remember exactly, about what he would do with the money and how he thinks Marta will handle it differently. And then Marta walks out on the balcony and surveys the family, who warily watch her sipping from Harlan's mug. Is she going to help out the family, because she's the one good person in the movie? Or does that mug indicate she's come around to Harlan's point of view on his terrible relatives? We've established that Marta is the morally good person, but what does a good person do with that much wealth?
posted by the primroses were over at 4:36 PM on December 1, 2019 [19 favorites]

Benoit Blanc, eccentric dandy Southern detective, does seem exactly the sort of character who would appear in an endless series of mystery novels.

I love that he kept trying to narrate his story and then...losing his way a bit. He's the real deal eccentric detective, not the real deal eccentric mystery writer.

I like that they left the ending a little open regarding Marta helping the family. I get the sense that she'll help with Meg's tuition -- and maybe not fire the son in charge of the publishing company -- but the balance of power was the real point. The family went from insisting that they would of course help Marta, she's part of the family (though not invited to the funeral) to Marta reassuring Meg that of course she wouldn't have to worry about paying for school. Not so fun relying on promised good will from the other side! (The scenes between Ana de Armas and Christopher Plummer we're great for that. Plummer was her direct employer, but you got much less of a boss/underling approach there than any of Marta's other interactions with the family.)

What a fun movie! And what a great way to go for a mystery writer. I don't think he had a single regret.
posted by grandiloquiet at 6:11 PM on December 1, 2019 [12 favorites]

We're all agreed, right? No one actually voted for Marta to be invited to the funeral, right?

Except maybe Meg.
posted by meese at 6:44 PM on December 1, 2019 [25 favorites]

As many people got Marta's nationality right as wanted her invited to the funeral.
posted by ckape at 6:56 PM on December 1, 2019 [38 favorites]

Just saw this and loved it, particularly how it kept switching between a mystery and thriller structure, leaving the real question to be whether there was any mystery here at all.

The Thanksgiving dinner politics argument scene was thematically appropriate and revealing of character, but I think its real payload was in slyly reframing Marta's relationship with the family. When she was first introduced, the description of her as a member of the family was illustrated with a shot of Richard with a big smile inviting her to come join the conversation. In that scene we got to see that shot again, this time in context. Richard wasn't inviting her to join the family, he was dragging her over for a command performance as the "good immigrant" in order to score points in an argument with his in-laws.
posted by firechicago at 8:03 PM on December 1, 2019 [46 favorites]

I especially enjoyed the black eye that mysteriously appeared on Don Johnson in the last shots
posted by bq at 8:04 PM on December 1, 2019 [35 favorites]

I loved the movie as a piece of entertainment, but also for the tweaking of white nationalistic "they will replace us" fears by . . . having Marta replace them.

OTOH I really liked Benoit Blanc's character and was glad Rian Johnson stopped short of completely deconstructing the eccentric white male private detective and having him b e buffoon or fellow travelling elitist/racist. The level of mockery he got was just about perfect (as in oblivious to an ambulance pulling in behind him.)
posted by mark k at 9:02 PM on December 1, 2019 [18 favorites]

Just saw this and agree that it was very satisfying. The decision to show the actual death scene half an hour in was daring, and had me off balance for the rest of the picture.

The puke thing was a little off-key to me -- it felt more like something from pure farce, which the rest of the film didn't rise to. Although there were a few elements like that (exhibits A through H being Blanc's whole vibe, especially contrasted against the other two officers). I'm sure Johnson knows a lot more about the conventions of the country house murder mystery than me, and that playing with tone was part of the fun for him.

I liked the little Sondheim shoutout, with Blanc singing Losing My Mind in Marta's Hyundai. Foreshadowing for the "coffee cup" shot at the end? Probably not, but I'd like to think so. I also like to imagine noted mystery fan Stephen Sondheim watching the movie and getting stoked by that.

And the doughnut monologue! I'd go a second time just to see the doughnut monologue again.
posted by rollick at 3:07 AM on December 2, 2019 [6 favorites]

regarding Marta helping the family
The only one that really concerns me is Harlan's mother.
Everyone else in the family can take care of themselves, but cutting her off would be cruel.

BTW, nobody's mentioned the baseball yet. Iff Richard hadn't thrown the ball in frustration, Linda would've had no reason to go to her father's desk and find his note. A perfect circle.
posted by cheshyre at 3:29 AM on December 2, 2019 [44 favorites]

I thought the real cherry on top was the way Meg, the white feminist, stops treating Marta as a person as soon as her own comfort is at stake.
posted by tofu_crouton at 5:35 AM on December 2, 2019 [62 favorites]

Yeah, I didn't get the impression that Meg voted for Marta to attend the funeral - she wouldn't actually stand up to her family for Marta (I also forget if Meg said if she got a vote or not - she's college aged, so might not have).
posted by dinty_moore at 7:01 AM on December 2, 2019

Eh, idly suggesting that a group of people do the right thing doesn't require much effort. Meg and her mom suggest that "the help" should be invited to the funeral; the siblings and other grandchildren insist that the funeral is for real family and the help of course will be invited to the memorial. Meg and her mother's Good Behavior has been quickly "outvoted" by their bad relatives, everyone's honor is satisfied, and no one is ever uncomfortable. (And Fran gets the chance to blackmail Ransom, setting up the big finish.)

I loved how the blood drop on the shoe (I thought it was on her jacket lapel) came around at the very end. It was the last of many threads left dangling to worry us about Marta's fate...Benoit explaining that he'd seen it from their very first meeting was a great final moment to reassure the audience that he's actually quite good at what he does.

(Also! Benoit getting angry on Marta's behalf at the end reminded me a lot of Original Sherlock Holmes, who is actually written as a fairly polite and very decent person.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:20 AM on December 2, 2019 [16 favorites]

There’s been some discussion about how progressive the film is.

NY Times
Remezcla
posted by pxe2000 at 9:28 AM on December 2, 2019 [7 favorites]

The references to the game of Go, a complex game in which you have to plan many moves ahead. Marta is the greatest player although she admits that she is simply trying to make a pretty pattern.

This echoes the entire movie in which Marta wins but not because she is trying to win. She is playing defensively of course (covering her tracks in the mud, running away from Blanc at the fire) but not seemingly with an outcome in mind.

The moments between her and Harlan are among the warmest in the movie. They are intimate friends. It is in clear contrast to his relations with his family which are much more strained. Harlan has never actually given his family anything it is clear - a bequest, their own money or assets, but has just dribbled out money to them. It is his money, not theirs. That much is clear.

What is less clear is what happened a week before in order to make Harlan change the will? What was in the will before that? It does seem like he was planning his own death what with preparing wills and cutting off ties with family members. But the death that arrived was not planned by him? Or was it? He seemed strangely calm when Marta was in a panic about the mixed-up bottles.
posted by vacapinta at 10:41 AM on December 2, 2019 [14 favorites]

One thing I thought was going to come up again before the climax of the film was Riki Lindhome's character Donna. Her part seemed suspiciously small, especially since the other family members all got more focus either through their interrogations or their movements over the night of the crime. Turns out she had at least one other scene, also featuring Raul Castillo, which was in a trailer but cut from the final film.
posted by bcwinters at 11:09 AM on December 2, 2019 [7 favorites]

There were a lot of little touches that made the setting seem very of the moment, without laying it on too thick: e.g. the Hamilton joke, the alt right nephew, Marta's heavily cracked phone screen. Even the joke about reading a tweet about a New Yorker article but not the actual article rang true to me.

And I also liked that the film trusted the intelligence of its viewers. I was bracing myself midway for some lengthy scenes of the family scheming how to screw Marta over. But the two brief conversations between Meg on the phone and Walt in the hallway basically said everything that needed to be said in an economical way.
posted by rollick at 11:42 AM on December 2, 2019 [27 favorites]

What is less clear is what happened a week before in order to make Harlan change the will?

It seemed like a few things had come to a head recently: he'd shown the evidence that he has of the affair, he had made the choice to take Walt off the publishing house, and he cut off Joni and Meg officially. It's less clear what Ransom did to finally get a cut-off. It seemed like over the past (let's say month?) things had come to a head with each Thrombey kid. I'd be curious to see if there's any further hints hidden away in the scenery when I rewatch it.
posted by codacorolla at 12:11 PM on December 2, 2019 [5 favorites]

Thanks for that vacapinta - I was wondering if there was something I was missing due to being unfamiliar with Go.
posted by simonw at 5:54 PM on December 2, 2019

Thank you, pxe2000 for the link to the NY Times Op Ed by Monica Castillo. It gave me a lot to think about and I really appreciate the chance to reconsider aspects of the film in that light. I keep trying to write a longer response detailing my reaction and can't seem to really get the right words. So, I'm just saying thank you because it was a much needed perspective.
posted by acidnova at 6:40 PM on December 2, 2019 [3 favorites]

Yeah, after reading that NYT article - I get why there's this impulse to keep a general shroud of secrecy around discussions of the film, but I do see how this movie could be way too close for a lot of immigrants, children of immigrants and Latinos right now, and I wish there was more of an awareness and communication about it in reviews. At least say that people will be watching a ton of microaggressions so they can be prepared - or decide that the movie might not be for them. That's what reviews are for, right?

Another review I read/listened to pointed out that Ana De Armas is the unknown in a cast of huge stars, and she's the stealth lead. Look at how little she's in this trailer. We're primed to like the rest of the cast, even when they're being horrible. Chris Evans is a charming human! Toni Colette is always amazing! Daniel Craig has an outrageous accent! Ana De Armas has to retain our emotional support against some formidable opponents.

I do like the fact that we get to see Marta at home - something we only see with Marta, Ransom, and Harlan. And Marta's the only home that doesn't seem ridiculous by design. It's sort of the anti-Agatha Christie movie.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:53 PM on December 2, 2019 [12 favorites]

I'm not sure there's anything particularly significant to the timing of the will change. Harlan was turning 85, mortality was staring him in the face, and the years of shitty behavior by his children reached a breaking point for him. He didn't know he'd be dying in a week, after all. I don't think he was seeking to die, but as he told Marta after the "accident', he basically had no real reason to keep on living (already as successful as he could possibly be in his field, family's a wash, etc.) and accepted going peacefully.

On another note, I appreciated how there wasn't a cynical twist at the end where it turned out Marta was actually a bad actor and had planned some or all of this. It's refreshing to just have a genuinely good character come out ahead in a movie these days. Marta won by being consistently kind and compassionate in the face of a lot of awfulness. For that reason, addressing a concern upthread, I suspect Marta would make arrangements for Harlan's mother to be kept comfortable for the rest of her life instead of just tossing her out.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:54 PM on December 2, 2019 [33 favorites]

I had a moment thinking that Marta could have planned it all and that the movie was unresolved, but fortunately the friend I saw it with pointed out that she pukes when she’s alone in the car, too. (I hate seeing people throw up and had blocked it from my awareness as much as possible.)
posted by The corpse in the library at 8:18 PM on December 2, 2019 [1 favorite]

The pictures of Richard having an affair look like what (Hollywood has primed me to believe) you get when you hire a private investigator. And cutting off Joni seemed like the result of doing an audit. Which would both tend to move the initiative for things back to Harlan.

I don't remember if they explained why Harlan had started taking morphine, but whatever it was might have pushed him to take stock of his life and his relationship with his family. Tying up everything on his 85th birthday because that's when he has an opportunity to talk to everyone in person. Plus, the drama.
posted by ckape at 8:44 PM on December 2, 2019 [3 favorites]

IIRC, he was taking the morphine because of a shoulder issue? Maybe a fall?
posted by dinty_moore at 8:53 PM on December 2, 2019 [2 favorites]

OVERINVESTED talks Knives Out, which they loved, and gets into some production talk, like how fast it was made and casting and how part of the reason Evans might have been on board is cause it;s filmed in basically his backyward
posted by The Whelk at 10:11 PM on December 2, 2019 [4 favorites]

Just saw it and I loved it - so much fun. They could have suprise-twisted that any one of those characters was the bad guy and I would have bought it -- the scene where Marta is sitting side by side with Blanc after Ransom spilled the whole story, and he tells her to level with him, made me feel like I was at the top of the roller coaster and it was going to turn out that Marta and Blanc were in cahoots to steal the money.

I like that they left the ending a little open regarding Marta helping the family. I get the sense that she'll help with Meg's tuition...

I'd have to watch it again to confirm, but it sure sounded like what Marta said to Meg on the phone, "You won't have to worry about a thing. I'll take care of you. If you need anything, just let me know" was word-for-word exactly what Meg had said to her earlier in the film, just with "I" instead of "we" -- something that sounded good, but that you can't really believe.

Also Frank Oz (!!!)
posted by Mchelly at 2:43 PM on December 3, 2019 [10 favorites]

Let's all pause for a moment and think about how perfect Joni's hair was. So ready for Instagram. That hair wants to sell me essential oils.
posted by The corpse in the library at 3:23 PM on December 3, 2019 [20 favorites]

Toni Collette was pitch perfect. "I'm not on twitter but you can DM me on instagram!"
posted by acidnova at 7:11 PM on December 3, 2019 [11 favorites]

oh god I pinged that as SUCH an ON THE NOSE character note.

Also all her outfits are so unsuitable for fall in New England. She has Santa Monica in her bones. It's like when Don Johnson shows up in that fleece zip-up and that's all you need to know he's a rich republican shithead or that Ransom's slightly tattered sweater is a huge WASP detail.

the costuming on this was SO GOOD. According to the New Yorker profile of Jamie Lee Curtis she gave the designer photos of her high powered, swelligant, real estate friend as inspiration for her character's bold suits.
posted by The Whelk at 9:07 PM on December 3, 2019 [25 favorites]

...made me feel like I was at the top of the roller coaster and it was going to turn out that Marta and Blanc were in cahoots to steal the money.

Yes! Not to take away from the movie as it is - and perhaps I've read too many mysteries - but I was ready for a bigger twist. Like, Harlan had faked his death or that Ransom was actually the good guy all along, taken into confidence by Harlan (he is the one most like Harlan, right?) to execute this plan and also help Marta.

Or that Harlan whisked Nana away somewhere and he has been there all along in her hat and glasses, chuckling over the whole thing.
posted by vacapinta at 10:23 PM on December 3, 2019 [10 favorites]

I was half-anticipating something in the Marta/Ransom direction (that ABSOLUTELY
would have happened if the movie were made a decade ago). I was very relieved/amused when the answer to "I hope he didn't cover for me" was ...no, he really really did not.
posted by grandiloquiet at 11:29 AM on December 4, 2019 [9 favorites]

I'm in total agreement with the praise in this thread, and I just want to add two things:

1. I would be ALL OVER a Benoit Blanc Cinematic Universe.

2. "Masturbating joylessly to photos of deer carcasses" is probably the most savage diss I have ever heard in my entire life.
posted by MrBadExample at 9:38 PM on December 4, 2019 [46 favorites]

An interview with the costume designer, Jenny Eagan.
posted by dinty_moore at 9:49 AM on December 5, 2019 [10 favorites]

Meanwhile, was anyone else constantly half-expecting Nana to say she saw something nasty in the woodshed?
posted by Mchelly at 11:18 AM on December 5, 2019 [10 favorites]

From dinty_moore's great link -- Sweater!
posted by Mchelly at 11:26 AM on December 5, 2019 [5 favorites]

As someone who's still mad at The Murders in the Rue Morgue, I'm glad Harlan wasn't secretly alive and pulling the strings, or have supposedly dead middle child Neil be secretly alive and behind everything.
posted by ckape at 7:36 PM on December 5, 2019 [4 favorites]

This was outstanding. So glad to see M. Emmet Walsh in a bit part, too!
posted by whir at 10:16 PM on December 6, 2019 [2 favorites]

My take on the Marta-Harlan relationship is definitely opposite to what most reviews and comments here. She's definitely a good person, but they're not great friends. She's upset she got involved in a murder but placing all the flashbacks in context, and considering that Harlan also is as nasty as his family, she was pleasantly tolerating her employer. Harlan definitely took it to mean something much deeper, because it's not like he's surrounded by good people. And even to the end he was a master manipulator - he supposedly gets plot inspiration in a flash, and his haste makes sense since at that point he was counting on Marta inheriting everything. I think by the time the knife was in his hands he knew he was fine but he was also apparently not the sort to let a dramatic opportunity go to waste. Since I read it that way, I thought it's darkly funny that he attributed his actions with his family to Marta's good advice, when to my ears it sounds like something you say as a long-suffering person having to tolerate someone's drama. I think ppl underestimate how much she (and Fran) are fully aware of the class distance.

Watched it the second time! It still hangs together very well and it's great catching all the little things Ransom was doing to move things along (eg Marta's car, his disheveled hair).
posted by cendawanita at 9:14 AM on December 7, 2019 [9 favorites]

This film had an A++ ending and really, the entire last twenty minutes were a non-stop delight. The social satire aspects were terrific and timely and the actors had a blast in a way that was contagious.

BUT... for my money, the pacing was way off in the first three quarters of the film and the jokes were too scattered and low key to prop it up. I would have loved to have seen a version script doctored by Mitchell Hurwitz that was about fifteen minutes shorter.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:56 AM on December 7, 2019 [6 favorites]

We just got home, and loved every single minute of it. The whole theater full of people did -- except for one older white guy, who loudly and bitterly complained to his wife during the credits that it was TERRIBLE and NOT FUNNY and the WORST THING HE EVER SAW. My theory... he's a Trump fan who didn't like how Trump fans were (very, very accurately) portrayed.
posted by sarcasticah at 7:20 PM on December 7, 2019 [5 favorites]

Fun movie but I kind of don't want to discuss it too much, lest it fall apart on examination.
posted by octothorpe at 2:19 PM on December 8, 2019 [1 favorite]

I re-read Murder on the Orient Express after seeing Branagh's movie and was amazed at how much racism Christie put in her books and how much Branagh and his screenwriter just worked around that issue and didn't really address it. So I liked the way that this film, which obviously owes a huge debt to her, turns all the racism and colonialism of those novels on it's head.
posted by octothorpe at 3:19 PM on December 8, 2019 [15 favorites]

Just got back from this, loved the hell out of it. The family is all horrible, none of them really know where Marta is from but they'll take care of her. Sure they will.

The sound of Blanc's coin flip was a lovely bit of foley work. Somebody watched that episode of Going Deep With David Rees about flipping a coin.

There was a lovely tweet I saw the other day about how the grips spent a lot of time on the lighting rigs so the reflections in the glasses would be right.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 7:32 PM on December 8, 2019 [9 favorites]

During the movie I found myself distracted by who exactly Michael Shannon sounded like. It was eating at me, literally keeping me from being able to pay attention in his scenes. Then it hit me: Patton Oswalt. If you re-watch please listen for Oswalt-sounds any time Michael Shannon puts some intensity into his speech.
posted by komara at 8:24 PM on December 8, 2019 [3 favorites]

This was outstanding. So glad to see M. Emmet Walsh in a bit part, too!

When Mrs Schnitzengrubnen and I were watching this, we were convinced Walsh had died like a year ago. But I see on IMDB that not only is he alive, he was playing a role originally intended for the late, great Ricky Jay.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 10:12 AM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]

This is Walsh's 50th year in film and somehow he's always looked old.
posted by octothorpe at 10:49 AM on December 9, 2019

the primroses were over: "He makes a comment to Marta shortly before cutting his own throat about knowing the difference between prop knives and real ones (granted, this pays out at the end with a different character mistaking one for the other, but so what!)"

Hang on. I thought that he was literally talking about Ransom not knowing the difference between a prop knife and a real one in that scene (like a Chekov's gun, but in dialogue), not himself. That's why when Ransom grabs the knife at the end, I knew how that would turn out.

Meanwhile, speaking of hints, one thing that I wonder about whether it was intentional or not was Harlan's reaction -- or rather, non-reaction -- to the "overdose". Like, I don't know that much about drugs and pharmacology but I do know that IV drugs are supposed to hit you way, way faster than stuff taken orally or injected intra-muscularly because, well, they're deposited directly into your bloodstream. So, when Marta says that she accidentally gave him 33 times the normal dose of morphine and that he'll be dead in 10 minutes, I was thinking: "dead in 10 minutes probably means unconscious in 5 minutes and incoherent in 2 minutes... he should definitely be slurring his words and slowing down by now... he doesn't have nearly enough time to come up with this plan (while jotting stuff down in his notebook), convey the plan to Marta, and overcome her objections... so somebody must have switched the vials or something..."

In any case, I was reminded of a story that one of my friends tells of having The Sixth Sense sort of spoiled in the same way when he went to see it with a friend who knew about guns and such. When Bruce Willis gets shot by Donnie Wahlberg, his friend leans over and says "no way he survives that, no one can survive getting shot by that kind of gun at that close range".
posted by mhum at 11:48 AM on December 9, 2019 [5 favorites]

There's the briefest glimpse of a photo of Ricky Jay in the Walsh scene, which was a nice nod.

I really enjoyed this movie! (Though it's bananas that the sharp, spry 85-year-old was under a nurse's care while his mom wandered about the House of Thrombey -- bought in the '80s! -- at all hours, unattended.) You kind of knew Evans would turn out to be a heel, simply because he's in it but doesn't even appear in real time until halfway through the runtime. It's crime-drama-of-the-week casting.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:48 AM on December 9, 2019 [7 favorites]

I just want to say that the scene in which Blanc is describing his method to Marta by borrowing the imagery from the title of a novel is the hardest my wife or I have laughed in a theater all year.
posted by jsnlxndrlv at 12:09 PM on December 9, 2019 [17 favorites]

Well I loved it. I've just seen it. I was a bit thrown off at the beginning, when we see the house, because I'd forgotten it takes place in America. I was thinking, hang on that's not an old house - but it's not an arts-and-crafts movement neo-gothic house either - and those windows are modern - what? Of course it's American Gothic.

I've been in a rubbish mood all weekend, the glossiness of the trailers and the adverts made it worse, and then the film began and bang! hilarious from the very first moment. Every clue underlined and every joke badum-tished. What a relief, actually, to watch a plot so witty and sarky and good-hearted unfold against such an appalling collection of antagonists. I felt like clapping at the end too. Maybe about a quarter of the way in I was wondering, is this it? but it really took off.

There only about 10 other people in the cinema and I didn't hardly hear anyone else laughing. So strange.

Since people are discussing the way the knitwear shows character and class, here's a photo of the now preppy Aran being knitted in its original habitat. or maybe it's Shetand I dunno
posted by glasseyes at 12:13 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]

I thought that he was literally talking about Ransom not knowing the difference between a prop knife and a real one in that scene (like a Chekov's gun, but in dialogue), not himself. That's why when Ransom grabs the knife at the end, I knew how that would turn out.

Yep, mhum, I think he was talking about other people, maybe even specifically Ransom, which is why I said the comment paid off later. But I am grasping at straws to support my conspiracy theory of Harlan's survival!
posted by the primroses were over at 12:47 PM on December 9, 2019

the primroses were over: Yep, mhum, I think he was talking about other people, maybe even specifically Ransom, which is why I said the comment paid off later. But I am grasping at straws to support my conspiracy theory of Harlan's survival!"

I'd have to rewatch to be sure, but in my recollection, Harlan says it during the segment where he says how much he sees himself in Ransom except that Ransom hasn't had to do anything for himself so he doesn't even have the basic common sense to tell a prop from a real knife.

Meanwhile, I also entertained the idea of a fake death, at least at first. However, what kind of stripped that away for me is how Rian Johnson establishes pretty early that all the flashback sequences are pretty much true depictions of what happened and aren't skewed like in a Rashomon situation. Given how idiosyncratic, self-centered, and self-interested most of the characters are, I can imagine how it would be extremely tempting to make each flashback reflect their particular viewpoints & biases but then it would have turned an already pretty tricky movie into a real convoluted mess, I think.
posted by mhum at 1:29 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]

He raises the possibility that the memories might be flawed with the debate in in Marta's mind about whether Harlan said to turn off the road before or after the statue in order to evade the security camera. I think it's clear that the flashbacks are what each person honestly believes is true, though.

The flashbacks are interesting, because it means that we have more information than Blanc. I think that's what I mean about halfway to Columbo. Though that's not a criticism, in fact it made the whole thing more enjoyable to me.
posted by Grangousier at 4:46 PM on December 9, 2019 [5 favorites]

I also noticed a discrepancy on the interview flashback scenes to Harlan blowing out his candles - each person remembered themselves next to him.
posted by bq at 6:22 PM on December 9, 2019 [32 favorites]

That was when I knew I'm going to enjoy this movie (Walt vs Linda by Harlan's side blowing the candles), and then followed by the half second too long on Don Johnson's face after Richard's interview and he went for the hammiest of guilty looks, lol.
posted by cendawanita at 7:10 PM on December 9, 2019 [2 favorites]

I especially enjoyed the black eye that mysteriously appeared on Don Johnson in the last shots

Was this not from his scuffle with Walt?

Saw this yesterday, absolutely loved it. Approximately every twenty minutes I found myself thinking “this is not the movie I thought it was going to be!” which is great. And I absolutely loved that Marta won be being so good and so pure that she can’t even lie convincingly (though I guess she can tamper with evidence).

Question: I loved the bit that everyone in the family had a different idea of where Marta was from, but did the movie ever actually tell us the correct answer?
posted by ejs at 7:49 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]

Was this not from his scuffle with Walt?

It didn't appear until after Linda revealed the invisible ink on the letter from Harlan (the one that said that Richard was cheating on her).
posted by firechicago at 8:01 PM on December 9, 2019 [10 favorites]

ejs, I don't think so (though I may have missed it in one of Blanc's well-attended soliloquies). In real life, actresses Ana de Armas (Marta) and Marlene Forte (Marta's mother) were born in Cuba.
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:53 PM on December 9, 2019 [1 favorite]

When I watch this film again I think it will be when it's streaming, so I can switch on subtitles and also rewind whenever I miss a bit or want to check something. Or heck it I could just pop into the cinema tomorrow. Watching it cheered me up no end because currently we're drowning in an incredibly slick and practiced media environment where honesty and caring are 'naive' if not obsolete or radically dangerous qualities. Or all of those.

About where Marta is from, I don't think it's so much that any of them have an idea about where her roots are, they just none of them give a damn. She comes from the generic place the help comes from, and kudos to them for letting the girl enter the house through the front door.

I love that the McGuffin - she's sick if she tells a lie - is so ridiculous and that the detective's accent is exagerated so preposterously - just like Poirot's. Although it appears the accent was accurate (if exagerated)? Lots of the Brit reviews make a point of saying how unconvincing the accent is. Doughnuts of artifice and double bluff within doughnuts of double bluff and artifice.

In the restaurant scene where Marta tells Ransom what happened the song playing is Gordon Lightfoot's Sundown, which was all over the charts in 1974 and simple and catchy enough that I knew all the words then. Hearing it come up in the background plunged me into the mood of the song all while straining to remember it. I think it's a calculated effect: the song is hauntingly memorable but hasn't had much of a footprint so many listeners would recognise it vaguely but struggle to recall it all I think. I did just in time for the end of the scene capped off by the last line: Sometimes I think it's a sin When I feel like I'm winnin' when I'm losin' again. Masterful use of music and lyrics IMO, echoing the gameplaying/ ambiguous antagonists theme.
(Or maybe it's played all the time in the States and the point wasn't subtle at all shrug emoji)
posted by glasseyes at 5:17 AM on December 10, 2019 [6 favorites]

(Or maybe it's played all the time in the States and the point wasn't subtle at all shrug emoji)

I've never heard of that song before, so consider it subtle.

The not letting the audience know where Marta's family is from bothered me a little, to be honest. I'm not ready to say it's not important, because it's not like all Latin American countries are interchangeable. It's forcing the audience down to the family's level in a cheap way.

The other part I do feel conflicted on is how Meg's entitlement for the money is equated with the siblings and Ransom's feelings of entitlement - but Meg is still a dependent. I went through the 'parents are shitty with money so I might have to drop out of college' ride a few times with friends - one really did have to legally emancipate herself and reapply; another's mom went through money like water and raided the tuition funds; someone's dad kept the tuition payment hostage as a threat to their mom; my tuition was fine but my parents cut everything else off after I came out, so there was one memorable English class where I burst into tears after the professor added one more book to the syllabus. It sucked! This doesn't excuse Meg turning on Marta the second she's threatened, but I do feel like her situation is different than her mother's - it's not like Meg was the one embezzling funds.
posted by dinty_moore at 6:17 AM on December 10, 2019 [2 favorites]

I think that at the point in the movie where Joni's called on the carpet, the double-dipping's been going on for four years. Why does it automatically follow that Meg then has to drop out -- would it have been so awful for a woman in her early 20s to take out a loan for her last year/years of college? (Answer: by Thrombey entitlement standards, yes; student loan debt is for other (poorer) people.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:01 AM on December 10, 2019 [4 favorites]

Sorry, dinty_moore -- I don't think I was clear in the post above. I'm only talking about the internal logic of the film, not the real-life difficulties you, your friends, and an awful lot of people went (& go) through.
posted by Iris Gambol at 11:05 AM on December 10, 2019

Why does it automatically follow that Meg then has to drop out -- would it have been so awful for a woman in her early 20s to take out a loan for her last year/years of college?

That's . . . not how it works. Applying for financial aid mid-semester is tricky and not likely to happen - even taking out additional loans can have penalties attached. But let's say it's only one year, no financial aid - and the $100,000 covers tuition, room, board, textbooks, ect so it's only that $100,000. According to this student interest calculator, paying back the minimum $500 a month with the average 5.8 percent interest rate will mean that Meg's loans would be paid off in about 60 years. Which actually does seem like a lot to ask of a college student? Dropping out and then either reapplying without having to deal with her mother's financial mismanagement or just to a less expensive school (and still dealing with a more moderate set of loans) seems like the better option. Which might not be the end of the world - I know people who had to do just that, they graduated later but life went on - but it's still a pretty large consequence for Meg, considering at that point she was not at fault.

Again, not actually a reason for Meg to turn on Marta, but Meg's situation is legitimately kind of shitty for reasons outside of her control. If there was more of an indication that Meg knew what Joni was doing, that would be different (and it's possible I missed that).
posted by dinty_moore at 11:51 AM on December 10, 2019 [2 favorites]

considering at that point she was not at fault

True, but she still sold out Marta's family to protect herself. She and Marta had what appeared to be a good relationship. Instead of trusting that Marta would help her or even considering figuring out an alternate plan (lots of people without a wealthy grandfather do it), she sold Marta's family out at the first opportunity.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:17 PM on December 10, 2019 [5 favorites]

I'm not saying that it wasn't shitty for Meg to turn on Marta (the next sentence after the one you quoted says that, even). I just think her situation is different than her mother's or the rest of the family - all of them proved their shittiness before they were cut off; Meg was cut off because of her mother's actions and then proved her shittiness.
posted by dinty_moore at 12:26 PM on December 10, 2019

Right, in her case instead of having her shittiness shown to the viewer before it was shown after. Still the same entitlement.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 12:32 PM on December 10, 2019 [1 favorite]

Ehh, not really? I'm talking specifically about financial entitlement, not like white privilege. When it comes to having tuition money and financial aid applications, most colleges expect that if you're a traditionally aged student, you're still a dependent unless you've taken legal steps otherwise. So when if you find yourself in the situation where your family either refuses to pay or is unable to manage money, your ability to get financial aid still is based on their income. Joni is positioned as someone who probably looks like they have a lot of income on paper but doesn't actually have a lot of assets or the ability to save enough to pay for any of the schooling, so Meg is going to face the consequences of her financial mismanagement. Nobody legally actually expects Meg to be financially independent, the way one could reasonably expect Ransom or Joni or Walt to be financially independent.

Again, not defending any of Meg's actions here. But it's more reasonable for a college student to expect her family to pay her tuition to the extent that they are able than it is for a middle aged man to expect his father to employ him, or Ransom to get money for doing whatever he does. It's still feeling entitled to money that's not theirs, technically, but there's a different level to it.
posted by dinty_moore at 1:05 PM on December 10, 2019

Meg was very clearly the most likable of all of the despicable family members.
posted by MoonOrb at 1:16 PM on December 10, 2019 [3 favorites]

^most likable, most upset Marta was not invited to the funeral, seemingly the most enlightened (Cousin Nazi derides her as an SJW), so her quick turnabout is the most startling.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:42 PM on December 10, 2019

most upset Marta was not invited to the funeral

I hear she was outvoted!
posted by MoonOrb at 1:55 PM on December 10, 2019 [7 favorites]

(Or maybe it's played all the time in the States and the point wasn't subtle at all shrug emoji)

Not very often, but it was a pretty big hit a loooong time ago, and there wasn't a lot of music in the film, so it did stand out for me when it came on. But mostly because it also has the lyrics (maybe even the chorus?) "You better take care... if I find you been creeping 'round my back stairs..." which I thought was a really nice touch in light of Marta's actions on the night in question.
posted by Mchelly at 2:50 PM on December 10, 2019 [8 favorites]

It's still feeling entitled to money that's not theirs, technically, but there's a different level to it.

I mean, I guess? I don't mean like white privilege either, just that she ends up revealing herself to be as entitled as the rest of them.

To me it doesn't matter that she starts off 'better.' She was set up to be the most likable purely so her quick turnabout was the most startling: so you feel bad for her initially, and think she might actually be good, but no, she's as bad as the rest. I'm not sure why dramatic effect requires a deep dive into how real people pay for college.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 2:58 PM on December 10, 2019 [4 favorites]

The point was that I have a hard time being like 'how dare Meg expect that her family give her money for college' when that's what the federal government expects to happen. That's what I mean by financial entitlement. Not anything about Meg's actions, which I will repeat were horrible. Being put in an unfortunate situation by your family isn't an excuse to put someone in an extremely shitty situation in defence of your family.

The rest of the adult characters 100% have no right to expect money from anyone during the will reading, or when Harlan cut them off. I'm okay with Meg being put on the same ethical footing as the adults, just not the same financial one. I'd feel differently if she had at least known about the double dipping or if she was in grad school.
posted by dinty_moore at 4:27 PM on December 10, 2019 [1 favorite]

I personally don't see the conflict? Meg doesn't need to be textually bad when the movie starts but it showed when push comes to shove. She doesn't need to be shown as bad and complicit in knowing her mum is double dipping. She shows it when a little bit of hardship presented itself and instead of the other options we've talked about here, she chose to close ranks. Now, is that a moment of weakness? Maybe. But if they're all archetypes then Meg to me is the white feminist one. All that 'sjw' education, all the sniping at the Nazi cousin, and yet?
posted by cendawanita at 6:12 PM on December 10, 2019 [11 favorites]

To put another way, yeah, a young person like Meg shouldn't be faulted for expecting her family to pay for her education, but that's not what the movie is judging.
posted by cendawanita at 6:14 PM on December 10, 2019 [5 favorites]

I'm wondering if Meg is supposed to be a perpetual student, since no one knows her major and how long she's been in college is just a vague "years". That would keep in with the theme of Harlan being disappointed in the family for leeching off him instead of making something of their own. (of course it's also perfectly likely that it's vague because nobody in the family bothers to keep track)

I also wouldn't be surprised if Joni just told her that Grandpa is cutting off tuition without mentioning the final check (or the checks before that).
posted by ckape at 6:51 PM on December 10, 2019 [4 favorites]

Meg told the family soon after the reading that her friend Marta's mom was undocumented, for leverage. (And not long at all after pushing the family to speak with Marta about "taking care" of her in Harlan's absence, and then, post-reading, speaking to Marta herself about her own tuition; Meg couldn't have faith in her "like family" friend.) That's main judge-worthy bit.

Speaking of judgment: yes, it's just a movie, and a murder-mystery trope, but I was pretty peeved that Blanc could go on and on and ON praising Marta's decency and virtue when he knew he was psychologically torturing her for days, starting approximately 5 minutes after meeting her. (In yet another power play from some seemingly-affable white person with a 'higher station' in that house, he forced her into the Watson role.) He's lucky he didn't wind up with another suicide in the case.

(Full disclosure, I was annoyed with Blanc early on, for drawing Marta out into the cold to talk to her; she's in a sweater [and those thin canvas sneakers], while Blanc himself and the local flatfoots are wearing overcoats.)
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:53 PM on December 10, 2019 [5 favorites]

To put another way, yeah, a young person like Meg shouldn't be faulted for expecting her family to pay for her education, but that's not what the movie is judging.

But if part of the conversation is about how inherited wealth breeds financial entitlement (this money rightfully ours/we worked for it and ignoring that it's all inheritance), it is part of what the movie is judging them for. Not in its entirety, but the entire reason why Harlan cut them all out of the will in the first place was because they were too dependent on his wealth to make something on their own. Linda thought that she had built everything from scratch - when it was with a one million dollar loan. Walt was never able to get out of his father's shadow. Joni was embezzling from him, and Ransom never had any reason to do anything with his life. The last person he explicitly cuts off is Meg - I forget if he gives a reason separate from Joni's to cut her out. So I was really unclear if I was supposed to be judging Meg for her greed (in wanting her college education paid for) along with the rest of the adults, and honestly - the responses here seem kind of muddled on that, too.

(Totally okay judging her for turning on Marta, which is horrible! She's generally worthy of being judged harshly! I'm specifically talking about her feeling entitled to the money.)

This was honestly not that big of a deal (though please, do not encourage your loved ones to take out $100,000 in student loans for a year at a liberal arts college, that is not a normal or a healthy amount of debt). It's something that, thinking back, didn't stick as well as I liked, so I'm feeling conflicted about it.
posted by dinty_moore at 7:22 PM on December 10, 2019 [3 favorites]

Not in its entirety, but the entire reason why Harlan cut them all out of the will in the first place was because they were too dependent on his wealth to make something on their own.

Totally agree. A more entrepreneurial* mindset wouldn't necessarily take the bent Meg took for instance. It's also telling Meg wasn't seen to quiz her mum, but she's also in shock with the rest of her family.

But as I was also saying above elsewhere, Harlan is also as nasty as the family he's cultivated.

*I mean this in that go-getting attitude, not as in 'starting a business'
posted by cendawanita at 8:08 PM on December 10, 2019 [1 favorite]

So I was really unclear if I was supposed to be judging Meg for her greed (in wanting her college education paid for) along with the rest of the adults, and honestly - the responses here seem kind of muddled on that, too.

Meg was cut off indirectly, because Joni was double dipping, not because of anything Meg was doing. FWIW my interpretation was that Joni had already extracted enough money to pay for Meg for the next few years, so Harlan expected her to pay. Joni telling Meg "of course I can't afford to pay for you from my own pocket" struck me as totally manipulative and greedy.

I don't think we're necessarily "supposed" to judge people based on Harlan cutting them off--he was capricious and a bit of a bully and the best thing about him is he wasn't his kids. I think it's deliberately up to the viewer to chew over levels of despicability, which is why there's no consensus on Meg here. (And I could say a few nice things about Linda too.)
posted by mark k at 9:59 PM on December 10, 2019 [4 favorites]

If Meg didn't realize her mom wasn't actually supporting the family lifestyle as an Instagrammer, it's because Meg didn't want to.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:50 AM on December 11, 2019

Sure, Meg knew they were subsidized by some of their exceedingly wealthy relatives. Did she know the subsidy was obtained by felonious fraud? No. Even Harlan didn't know that.
posted by mark k at 7:41 AM on December 11, 2019 [1 favorite]

the best thing about him is he wasn't his kids.

I'm not so sure. When Walt intimidates Marta in the back hall of her apartment building, he says that the Thrombey resources ($, lawyers, influence) could be marshaled to help Mom Cabrera's legal problems. Marta responds that since those resources are now hers, she'll draw on them herself.

Post-movie reflection: when Harlan was alive, with that same near-magical, monied ability to fix things and knowing full well about this situation (think of your mother, Marta, he implores, as he's cooking up the hare-brained scheme after the medication non-mix-up), he didn't do anything to help. Yes, he changed his will to leave Marta his fortune, but she had no idea. Even if he had informed her at some point, given Nana's indeterminate vintage Harlan's natural death could have been more than a decade off. (Plus, he's got great nursing care.) Meanwhile, Marta's mom's precarity wears on.

Another nice detail, about how feelings can color recollection: when Ransom's slamming out of the house after the meeting in the study, on the night of the birthday celebration, in his mom's version of events he hands a piece of cake to Nana on his way.
posted by Iris Gambol at 8:50 AM on December 11, 2019 [15 favorites]

I don't think we're necessarily "supposed" to judge people based on Harlan cutting them off--he was capricious and a bit of a bully and the best thing about him is he wasn't his kids. I think it's deliberately up to the viewer to chew over levels of despicability, which is why there's no consensus on Meg here. (And I could say a few nice things about Linda too.)

That's not a bad point - I hadn't thought about it too much, but Harlan does seem like a bit of an ass (albeit a more charming one than any of his progeny), and is sort of responsible for how the family turned out. He meddles with the business, meaning that Walt never actually gets any experience running his own company, he spoils and indulges Joni's absurd vanity project, he uses blackmail against Rich instead of coming clean to his own daughter about the infidelity, he seems utterly disinterested in his Nazi grandson, and despite his closeness to Ransom (going so far as to actually hire him at one point) still doesn't seem to have a positive impact on him.

The point about Marta is also pretty well taken - despite her being clearly one of his favorite people, he never sees fit to help her while he's alive. His inheritance itself seems less motivated by his affinity for Marta, than his desire to spite his family.

I didn't really think about that after watching, and mostly felt positively about Harlan, so this is an interesting discussion.
posted by codacorolla at 5:54 PM on December 11, 2019 [15 favorites]

I loved seeing "doughnut truth" in there-- and improved since Nabokov apparently made it up. Or maybe he took an actual schoolyard saying. With him, in Ada, it was "Only the truth, and the whole truth, with a hole it the truth." Which is just kind of blatant bullshit and contradictory. But Benoit softens it and twists it around. Making a cruller?
posted by BibiRose at 4:57 AM on December 12, 2019 [1 favorite]

I knew the drugs had been switched as soon as the camera did a dramatic zoom-in on the medical bag before anything happened with it, so the whole movie became a delicious exercise in

1. how long until Marta confesses, and
2. how long until they figure out the confessed accidental murder was caused by the actual intentional murder

I loved the Rashomon effect on the audience, and the deft illustration of both lies and half-truths and misrememberings and after-the-fact whitewashings.

Oh, and fuck Meg (one of my favorite plots). As soon as her material comforts are even slightly threatened she immediately sides with the Nazi and the Trump voters. OOF, what an incredibly accurate story we keep seeing re-told in real life. She's not worse than her family, but it really makes the hopeful audience feel like a pack of rubes for thinking she might be any different from them. Fantastic reveal. Seeing the "ally" turn on a dime is a special kind of horrible-- and Marta numbly comforting her when Meg cries about realizing she accidentally did a racism? PEAK white feminism.

There were lots of clever reveals, but "Hugh/You" was the one that really impressed me. Homonyms that are also about classism! Glorious.
posted by a fiendish thingy at 10:09 AM on December 13, 2019 [28 favorites]

Hugh / You was one of the twists that didn't work for me; it didn't feel realistic.
posted by The corpse in the library at 6:30 PM on December 13, 2019 [2 favorites]

mhum: one thing that I wonder about whether it was intentional or not was Harlan's reaction -- or rather, non-reaction -- to the "overdose"....

That was a point for me too! I was like "how is this person even awake right now?!" when Harlan started going dialoguing about the Perfect Crime. But I'm so used to TV shows and movies riding roughshod over medical facts (like CPR = three gentle pats on the chest) that I just ignored it as a genre convention. So it was deliciously meta when it turned out that was the key to the whole thing.

Though I am still skeptical of Marta instinctively knowing which vial was which -- maybe that would have been better with a brief closeup of her picking up one, then setting it down and picking up the other. It's a fairy tale twist, like the vomiting. In some ways, the whole movie is a feel-good fairy tale where the Bad Guys get their comeuppance and the meek shall inherit the earth, or at least, a 1985 Queen Anne Revival built by a Pakistani developer.

But do you really think the Thrombeys are not going to leverage their network -- those intangible Ivy League connections -- to challenge the will and make Marta's life hell? Part of their privilege and entitlement comes from generational wealth, but a lot of it comes from the belief -- often borne out in reality -- that the rich/educated/WASP class that generates judges and lawyers will close ranks against an interloper like Marta. We see the family close ranks during the movie; I've seen the class close ranks in real life. It's rarely overt, but there's a lot of unspoken assumptions and microaggressions that tell people like Marta "You don't really belong here."

I think the movie does attempt to deconstruct the fairy tale a bit, but I'm not sure it succeeds. As Iris Gambol and codacorolla point out, both Harlan and Benoit -- the Good Guys, definitely have audience sympathy -- manipulate Marta and add to her emotional distress when they could have helped. Benoit is obviously perceptive, what with that bit about the blood spattered shoe, and like Marta he is an outsider to the 1%-ers, but he still uses Marta to lead him to the real killer.

Even the argument on here about whether Meg is really that bad hinges on whether it's a fair assumption on her part to have family wealth pay for her education i.e. for her entrance into the privileged class. For the record, I think Meg is a mindless hypocrite who "just didn't think" before blurting out that Marta's mother was undocumented. (I've met a lot of Megs.)

Still, that ending shot of Marta looking down on the thrombus of Thrombeys with the "My House" mug!
posted by basalganglia at 8:08 AM on December 14, 2019 [5 favorites]

I'm still with Benoit. He doesn't actually have any clue what happened until the end of the film. What could he have done that would've helped Marta more than finding the real bad actor? His first impression was that of a woman with blood-splattered shoes lying to him...by omission if not with active, nauseating falsehood. He stuck with her long enough to conclude that she didn't murder Harlan, but that someone else probably did. He still didn't know how she came into play. When he figured it out, he intervened on her behalf pretty quickly! Benoit wasn't motivated by altruism -- this was a hired job, and one that he clearly found very interesting -- but I don't have any complaints about his behavior.

The thought of a decade-long battle over the will is very depressing, so I've chosen to believe that Harlan put his assets in a trust to avoid probate and Marta basically inherits everything immediately. That means Marta at least would have access to the millions of dollars required to fend off legal challenge -- and might even choose to pay them a little to go away. (The remaining family is in a bad position to wage this battle, even with class favors. Walt either just lost his job or now works for Marta; Ransom is under arrest for murder and arson; Joni was stealing money from Harlan and they have proof of it; Linda might be having a divorce soon and definitely will have a son on trial.)
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:33 AM on December 14, 2019 [10 favorites]

Enjoyable, but the family actually felt very poorly fleshed out. Members are described as falling into particular tropes but aren't really given the space to inhabit them on camera. Most notably Ransom, who felt weirdly underdeveloped as a louche playboy. I can imagine taking out a good essay on the social commentary of all of this and why it adds up to a great movie, but as an experience it felt like too much of it was left off screen. (Definitely an interesting film to juxtapose with Parasite, though.)
posted by Going To Maine at 4:55 PM on December 15, 2019 [1 favorite]

Rian Johnson released an audio commentary track (link to movie promotional website with instructions to download).
posted by the primroses were over at 6:48 AM on December 20, 2019 [10 favorites]

Just saw this tonight in a relatively small theatre but one was that was still largely sold out even weeks after the movie was released. It was a real delight to watch this with an audience. You could hear people figure things out and pick up clues and at one point, a whole bunch of people in the audience urged Marta not to say anything.
posted by jacquilynne at 8:00 PM on December 21, 2019 [1 favorite]

Rian Johnson released an audio commentary track (link to movie promotional website with instructions to download).

This is a really clever idea!
posted by Going To Maine at 9:39 PM on December 21, 2019

That's brilliant! I'm going to make my family watch it, and I'm the only one who's already seen it -- so I can listen to the commentary while they watch it for the first time.
posted by The corpse in the library at 2:06 PM on December 22, 2019 [1 favorite]

Funny detail: the go game is explicitly a 9x9 game, which is kinda too small to be interesting to anyone who's actually played the game much at all.

All of these people suck at go.
posted by kaibutsu at 9:25 PM on December 22, 2019 [16 favorites]

The movie was a little like Get Out when it comes to portraying awkward race relations between the stodgy privileged modern WASP elite and minorities. But it wasn't until the will was read, when you realize that the microaggressions that had previously been made were for sharpening the blade.

Speaking of which, Get Out was known for subtly depicting different types of racisms of different degrees, including those of ostensibly liberal white allies. Meg's about-face was just another incarnation that would've fit well next to Stephen Root's character's (the true nature of the most sympathetic person at the party), to a much lesser degree of course. She might really believe herself to be Marta's friend, but she still bows under pressure, and doesn't attempt to help her afterwards. The whole predicament seems a bit silly anyway- the entire family is affluent even if Joanie claims that she's broke, is it really so impossible to believe that she couldn't have raised the tuition in some other way?

Pretty diverse cast, even including the extras. I'm a bit disappointed that the Asian butler shown for a second during the initial party flashback, before we're introduced to Fran, never had a speaking role. I didn't quite catch the dialogue there so maybe he was just a server and not part of the house staff.

Lakeith Stanfield didn't get enough comedic material compared to state trooper fanboy, sadly.

As far as mysteries go it's both more memorable and handled its large cast better than Murder on the Orient Express, imo.

There were a lot of little touches that made the setting seem very of the moment

Not a nitpick so much as an amusement- the reference to Baby Driver during the chase. That one will probably age the worst.

Most notably Ransom, who felt weirdly underdeveloped as a louche playboy.

He lives in Cameron Frye's house, and that's all you need to know.

I just want to say that the scene in which Blanc is describing his method to Marta by borrowing the imagery from the title of a novel is the hardest my wife or I have laughed in a theater all year.

Well, no one's actually read that novel.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:56 PM on December 22, 2019 [5 favorites]

Funny detail: the go game is explicitly a 9x9 game, which is kinda too small to be interesting to anyone who's actually played the game much at all.

9x9 is certainly not as deep as 19x19 (the standard game), but it's still a very interesting game that is not close to being "solved", and even professional players play it on occasion. It's certainly not a game anyone should be embarrassed about playing if they don't have the time to play on the full board. There are other things in the scene that made them look inexperienced, but I didn't take that as one.
posted by dfan at 4:05 AM on December 23, 2019 [9 favorites]

A delightful confection! Jamie Lee Curtis was my fave but the whole thing was an extremely pleasing roller coaster..

For an extra laugh check out the National Review's take.
posted by latkes at 5:53 PM on December 23, 2019 [1 favorite]

This was this year’s Christmas Day movie for my parents and I (my mother changed her mind about seeing Cats after the local newspaper panned it, thank goodness) and we all really enjoyed it! I’m generally not a fan of mysteries but the structure of the plot here made it so I could relax and enjoy the ride after hearing Marta’s version of the story.

As someone who has experienced first hand the phenomenon of privileged white folks saying “all the right things” to my face and then closing ranks when they perceive any threat to their privileged status, that aspect felt almost too skin-crawlingly real - I would love to rewatch certain parts of this movie to look out for some of the little details mentioned above but I don’t think I could bear to sit through that awful, awfully familiar feeling again. Which is I guess (I assume) what Rian Johnson was going for, so, uh, well done for nailing that?
posted by btfreek at 10:39 PM on December 25, 2019 [9 favorites]

Wait a minute, Mandalorian / Knives Out crossover meme... Frank Oz... Rian Johnson...

Get me my red string. I think this may actually be the sequel to The Last Jedi.
posted by condour75 at 5:49 PM on December 26, 2019 [7 favorites]

It was great fun spotting the bones of The Last Jedi under the surface of the film. It's really refreshing to see something that deviates from the standard formula for movies and has its own individual voice to this extent! I've never really been a fan of a director before, but Rian Johnson has totally got me.

I spent half the movie convinced Michael Shannon was Mark Hamill and Don Johnson was Richard Gere, make of that what you will.
posted by StarkRoads at 10:32 AM on December 27, 2019

I spent a large part of the movie convinced that Michael Shannon was Joshua Jackson. "He doesn't look that old," I thought. "Does he? Well, maybe. What are the chances that there's another actor who looks that much like Joshua Jackson?! Maybe he can look that old."

(he can't)
posted by grandiloquiet at 5:04 PM on December 27, 2019 [1 favorite]

Finally saw it last night. Was torn between feeling like it was too slight--invisible ink? chekov's vomit? hugh/you? these all were like twists from an encyclopedia brown novel--and feeling like that was all intentional. But I was really in it for Harlow and Blanc. Blanc is SO Columbo, and I love Columbo. I was excited once I realized it was a how-dunnit rather than a who-dunnit. A whole series of Blanc movies right now, please.

(Also as a writer I felt very sympathetic to Harlow not wanting his family to control his books. Literary estates do awful things--take Lewis Carroll's family who expunged his playboy lifestyle from his diaries to the extent that they made him sound like a pedophile! And though I don't have much in the way of a fortune I've felt torn between supporting my kiddo, potentially, from book proceeds and making sure nothing like that happens after I croak.)
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 7:25 AM on December 28, 2019 [2 favorites]

I just rewatched Who Framed Roger Rabbit and laughed when I saw that it had the exact same trope with the message from the dead written in invisible ink.
posted by octothorpe at 7:57 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]

Was torn between feeling like it was too slight--invisible ink? chekov's vomit? hugh/you? these all were like twists from an encyclopedia brown novel--and feeling like that was all intentional.

My friend and I talked about this after the show. The mystery aspect of it was pretty obvious and the clues were lampshaded throughout. Was that just sloppy writing? Was it a deliberate attempt to flatter the ego of the audience so they could feel smart when they solved it no probs? Or was it keep the mystery plot from occupying all of the audience's attention so they had some focus left over for the message about race and class?
posted by jacquilynne at 8:43 AM on December 28, 2019 [1 favorite]

I think it was a deliberate nod to the genre. If you don’t put in the clues so people can figure out the answer, that’s cheating. The point is to put together the clues and get that delicious feeling of satisfaction, not obscure the solution and surprise the viewer. If done right the viewer (or reader) will only figure out the solution about 5 minutes before the reveal.
posted by bq at 1:35 PM on December 28, 2019 [12 favorites]

If done right the viewer (or reader) will only figure out the solution about 5 minutes before the reveal.

Did anyone not jump to invisible ink as soon as the blank letter was opened?
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 8:14 AM on December 29, 2019 [7 favorites]

Just Don Johnson's character, I think. That wasn't a clue to the murder so much as a reveal of what an absolute shit that character is. Who is married for decades to the child of a mystery novelist and never bothers to notice their game of writing notes in invisible ink? That guy.

Maybe a little on the nose, but it worked for me.
posted by the primroses were over at 8:30 AM on December 29, 2019 [15 favorites]

There was something really interesting going on in the film with the interplay of virtue and money. On the one hand, money is depicted as a corrupting force, twisting a whole family into embodying various vices, but on the other, the happy ending is that the most virtuous person gets the fortune. I can’t quite get that to square up, but I suspect that repeat viewings will make that aspect clearer.

Though perhaps that final shot, where a deep-in-thought Marta looks down on the family from the balcony while sipping from the “my house, my rules, my coffee” mug is meant to suggest that money is beginning to twist Marta’s mind too.
posted by Kattullus at 2:07 PM on December 29, 2019 [11 favorites]

Did anyone not jump to invisible ink as soon as the blank letter was opened?

Of course that was obvious, but then I don't think the contents of that letter were ever intended to be a mystery. Harlan directly tells us what's in the letter. The real reasons for the secret letter to exist were to suggest that Richard isn't very bright and doesn't know his wife that well, to set up the fact that Harlan loves classic mysteries so much that he will use their trappings even when dealing with something that is deadly serious, and to set up the sight gag with the fresh bruise on Richard's face.
posted by firechicago at 10:29 AM on December 30, 2019 [12 favorites]

Although it appears the accent was accurate (if exagerated)?

(Former) Mississippi boy with Louisiana roots here: hard disagree. But 100% worth it for the lampshading KFC line.

And what a surprise it was to be watching this movie at the Embassy theater just off of Moody St in Waltham, MA, and suddenly in the car chase scene recognize stuff from literally right around the corner! I am really surprised they didn't advertise that here at ALL.

I spent a large part of the movie convinced that Michael Shannon was Joshua Jackson.

I spent a good bit of time thinking Ana de Armas was Linda Cardellini with kinda the reverse confusion ("did they de-age her like in the Irishman? Why would they do that??")
posted by solotoro at 6:19 AM on January 3, 2020 [2 favorites]

I don't think that the accent was meant to be accurate to any known American accent outside of Warner Brothers cartoons.
posted by octothorpe at 6:54 AM on January 3, 2020 [17 favorites]

My default insistence is that people (usually Northerners) are way too skeptical of put-on Southern accents, which frequently just involve a specificity that sounds "not right" to someone expecting a generic Southern accent. I didn't focus much on Benoit Blanc's accent in the theater (too many other things happening in the movie!), so I pulled up a clip when I got home to see if it was really as absurd as everyone said. And like...wow. Wow. It's the opposite of the usual actor problem where the accent is accurate but hyper-specific in a way that sounds "wrong" if you're not familiar with the specific accent. It's....by word and intonation, wrong in every possible way, while being somewhat plausible in aggregate. It's amazing.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:49 AM on January 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

I heard on the Mayo and Kermode podcast that Johnson’s intent was to have Benoit Blanc’s Southern accent be analogous to the Belgian accent of various Hercules Poirot in TV and film adaptations.
posted by Kattullus at 10:36 AM on January 3, 2020 [21 favorites]

I heard on the Mayo and Kermode podcast that Johnson’s intent was to have Benoit Blanc’s Southern accent be analogous to the Belgian accent of various Hercules Poirot in TV and film adaptations.

Ok that's hysterical.

Also reminds me of this.
posted by Mchelly at 10:42 AM on January 3, 2020 [3 favorites]

The movie is still making bank, and I guess following up on her amazed tweet that her showing of KO was still in a full house five weeks out, Anne Helen Petersen wrote an article: “Knives Out” And The Revenge Of The Pretty Good Movie
posted by cendawanita at 7:57 PM on January 3, 2020 [7 favorites]

Meg was both the most likable of the Thrombeys and the one who (aside from Ransom) most fucked her over, but I read her betrayal in a somewhat more sympathetic light, that beyond even her tuition vanishing, before the phone call, afterwards, or most likely both, she was being absolutely laid into by that pack of jackals for leverage until she cracked. It was inexcusable, but also sort of like she was the one who rolled over on Marta because she was the only one with anything to roll and they all knew it. It doesn’t excuse her at all, but it meant something to me that she immediately comes clean and apologizes to Marta when they see each other again.

And so, while this wasn’t in the text at all beyond the intentionally ambiguous exchange between Marta and Blanc about what she should do now, I felt like Marta was going to answer Meg’a call if she needed tuition money. Marta cared too much about Harlan’s wishes to let Walt stay on running the business and selling the movie rights (even if Walt hadn’t come to her home to intimidate her) Linda doesn’t need anything, and the rest are unmitigated shits, but Meg might be the special dispensation.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:23 PM on January 4, 2020 [2 favorites]

Also, Houston-born Boy here with a good deal of time logged in the south: I thought the accent was beautiful and perfect, exaggerated for 2019 for sure, but isn’t the very notion of the Faulknerian Southern Gentleman anachronistic by default?
posted by Navelgazer at 6:34 PM on January 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

I should say that my wife thinks that Meg’s apology was just another aspect of her very Millennial (gen-Z?) way of being able to talk all the talk and provide zero action to back it up, and in something as biting as this that is probably more accurate.

Maybe sympathizing with Meg at all is missing the point anyway and she should just get the “Bye Miss Laura” treatment here. Or maybe the moral is that Marta being kind even when in the direst circumstances is the way to be. I don’t know. But yeah, Meg’s betrayal is in itself inexcusable.
posted by Navelgazer at 6:51 PM on January 4, 2020 [3 favorites]

miscellaneous thoughts

Pere Thrombey literally wrote dosage notes and details in a Moleskine along with the sketch of the plot that becomes the movie. He has been given 3mg of morphine every day for a while. Injected opiods are perceptible within seconds.

He absolutely knew that he hadn’t been dosed.

What happened to that Moleskine? He placed it on the chest. It was not present in subsequent shots of the setting that I noted.

xxx

It’s been a while since I played go. My recollection is that one’s aim is to build enclosures around one’s opponents’ stones. A 9x9 game is awfully close to the size of an 8x8 derivative game marketed and popularized in the US in the seventies as Othello, also known as Reversi, in which the successful execution of an entrapment causes the opponent’s pieces to reverse colors.

An indelibly persistent theme in the script is exactly this, reversals. One wonders if the MacGamefin in the script might not have begun life as Othello.

xxx

Very much enjoyed the Pynchon joke. Wished there had been more direct theft from his work. A poisson distribution joke would have been easily deployable in the context of the Go board, or about a theoretical fish at dinner. Benoit’s complete reinterpretation of the central image of the novel, from the logical and inevitable outcome of a random event to his sagacious determination of an expected outcome, was something that made me laugh uproariously for probably longer than intended. I am reasonably sure Slothrop never slept with anybody in that house.

xxx

Pere Thrombey dies at 85.

Just how old is his mother, anyway?
posted by mwhybark at 1:21 AM on January 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

Rian Johnson's working on a sequel.

I don't want to fancast, but Kelly Marie Tran.

(this tweet did crack me up)

@GemOfAmara
Each sequel to Knives Out should have Daniel Craig doing a totally different accent, which is never explained.

@rianjohnson
Replying to @GemOfAmara
Ok I’m going to be very honest right now - I’ve had that thought
posted by cendawanita at 8:39 AM on January 6, 2020 [28 favorites]

I don't want to fancast, but Kelly Marie Tran.

My reaction as well, as well as that of everyone I've shared this news with.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:47 PM on January 6, 2020 [2 favorites]

I think it would be hysterical if they treated this a bit like American Horror Story or other anthology shows where the cast repeats in different characters. Use a whole bunch of the same actors but let them play different people.

Except for Daniel Craig as Benoit, of course.
posted by jacquilynne at 5:53 PM on January 6, 2020 [3 favorites]

> Except for Daniel Craig as Benoit, of course.

This line also fits the meme of “Pick a movie. Keep one actor. The rest are played by muppets.”
posted by Pronoiac at 11:04 PM on January 8, 2020 [4 favorites]

(In actual fact, this film is one reason I have finally started reading Gravity's Rainbow. I am on like page 54.)
posted by brainwane at 5:51 AM on January 9, 2020 [3 favorites]

The Sweater leads to this fun Twitter thread wherein an unexpected Norwegian package arrives.
posted by PussKillian at 6:22 AM on January 9, 2020 [4 favorites]

You keep Ana de Armas and replace everyone else, emphasizing how she's the sole authentic/relatable/sympathetic/decent person in the story.

Fringe theory: Blanc cottons on to his employer's identity after meeting Ransom, realizing how that bit of high-end wool fiber fuzz came to hitchhike in the cash-wad envelope.
posted by Iris Gambol at 1:48 PM on January 9, 2020 [1 favorite]

Also, muppet Daniel Craig Benoit Blanc would be very funny.
posted by grandiloquiet at 4:23 PM on January 9, 2020 [9 favorites]

I was initially surprised when they said that Marta was the best at go. She was playing black, which traditionally makes the first play. Even on a standard size board, the first player has an inherent advantage. On a 9x9, the advantage is even more pronounced. If a person won most every game, it would be a real jerk move to play black. Marta wasn't being portrayed as a jerk at all, so I was really confused.

Then I realized that it could be that Harlan insisted on playing white even though it put him at a relative disadvantage, not being one to want to play black. I don't know if that was Johnson's intention or not, but it does fit with the other themes in the movie.
posted by Quonab at 9:10 PM on January 14, 2020 [1 favorite]

Saw this yesterday with some friends. Theater was decently populated - I'd never have guessed it was nearly two months after release based on the number of people there, and we also got applause at the end as noted early in the thread.

I'm torn about the sequel because it'll be also great but also I feel like it makes Blanc more important than he is if this movie is a standalone? He's important here, but not the main character. If he's the only point of continuity though, I feel like he's by default the main character of the sequel and that filters back into this movie as well. I sort of hope they keep him from being the central character again, but that might become a little too tropey itself? I'm not intimately familiar with the conventions of the drama, so maybe that's not unusual.

Anyway, I thought pretty much everything was great. The one clue that hung around in the back of my mind unresolved until the end was the dogs barking and waking up Meg. I knew that:

a) the dogs don't bark at Marta. This is established early, and the same fact is verbally affirmed by Harlan and shown in her flashback.
b) even if her flashback was a little off and they did make enough noise as she snuck back in to wake Meg, Marta snuck in right after midnight and Meg woke up late, around 3am. So that timeline didn't match.
c) the dogs do bark at Ransom, because's a jerk and a virtual stranger to them. I think we see that early too, during a flashback to his arrival at the birthday party?

Which meant that Ransom showed up at the house in some capacity late in the night. But I couldn't figure out any reason why, and mostly forgot about it by the time Ransom showed up in the plot as an actual character. Getting the payoff for that at the end was nice.

A few points from earlier in the thread:

I, fool that I am, did not figure out that it was invisible ink until Linda found it and smiled affectionately. They even showed us her cache of previous invisible ink notes, but I failed to recognize them as such even though I did the same thing in my childhood and they had the right look to them. So it's not just Richard, although obviously he has less excuse, being married to Linda.

I like the notion that we can read the small Go board as being a concession to the fact they're playing immediately before bedtime. Marta didn't want to play at all, but was trying to put Harlan to bed. She's the one who suggests a 9x9 game, I think, so that's her compromise. She'll play Go before bed, but only the quick version.

To Quonab point about it: I think that works well if it's Harlan's insistence. The mug was pretty true to his character: his house, his rules. He was very keen on seeing things play out according to his own rules, even if those were idiosyncratic at times. You can't not play Go with me, it's my birthday, and we always play Go. My children get money from me on my terms. I will control whether any adaptations happen. On a broader level, the whole movie, as a murder mystery, follows Harlan's rules. As noted above, he sketches out the plot of the movie in a flash after the injection, and the whole story is playing by the rules of his genre.

As for why... maybe he just likes Marta beating him? He's a sore loser, and dramatic about it, but he likes being dramatic. I can see him making a production about losing in a pouty fashion not far off from the way he wheedles Marta into playing with him: somewhat charming, somewhat annoying, a little dramatic and teasing. Doesn't usually flip the board, that would get old, but he definitely puts up a little fuss about it pretty often, and she laughs, and then they move on.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:08 AM on January 19, 2020 [7 favorites]

Meant to add:

All of which of course, leads nicely to the point hammered in at the end: it's Marta's rules now.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:17 AM on January 19, 2020

I'm not sure that the detective is the main character of a detective story, but rather the means by which the drama is revealed - they don't participate in the story, but tell it (Peter Wimsey and Harriet Vane are one obvious exception). And, while it's not a traditional detective story (but I do think it's relevant here), Inspector Goole isn't the central character to An Inspector Calls, Eva Smith is.
posted by Grangousier at 2:17 AM on January 20, 2020 [1 favorite]

I saw this one day after the latest Magicians episode which also featured a prop knife. (High queen Margo sold it better)

I really liked the fanboy detective who almost left the crime scene because he was asked to, and the other detective who was just barely putting up with all of this but then legitimately impressed at the end.

I think that clue and murder by death are up on the docket pretty soon.

I also really want a high fantasy murder mystery tv series with magic and time travel and talking animals and what have you. I think the right detective could really sell it!
posted by Acari at 9:35 AM on February 2, 2020 [3 favorites]

That whole notes on a screen thing was great (and would make a good FPP on its own). It also contains one of the most interesting meta-spoilers I've ever seen.
posted by codacorolla at 11:04 AM on February 27, 2020 [2 favorites]

Rian Johnson was a guest on the most recent episode of the podcast Keep It. They talked about how months on the awards circuit has made a lot of the directors friends, what it takes to get into the mindset to write a whodunit, and the film he's always wanted to make.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 4:32 PM on February 27, 2020

I thought Daniel Craig sounded pretty bad, but not bad enough to be good like in Logan Lucky. I didn't really like Marta as a character nor de Armas's performance. There's not a lot of there, there, for either of their theres, so the center of the movie felt pretty weak. So this movie is fun, for the first thirty minutes, and I guess a lot of people can carry that feeling through the movie and all the way home, but I was pretty bored and didn't care by the time of Marta's victory, which I didn't feel anything about.

It seems a little morally simplistic to be interesting.

It's not that I don't like whodunits. There were a few years when I would have said Deathtrap was my favorite movie ever. Maybe I have aged out of them, though I saw Murder She Said recently and liked it better than this idk.

Also, the plan of the family to frame Marta felt really underdeveloped to me. It felt like the second act was just starting when there were only twenty minutes left in the movie. I guess I just wanted there to be more to it.
posted by fleacircus at 9:49 PM on March 1, 2020

There's an old Choose Your Own Adventure book called Who Killed Harlowe Thrombey?

Oh, thank god. I thought I was the only one who was having an intense wave of nostalgia the first time I heard the name in this movie.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 1:51 PM on March 6, 2020 [1 favorite]

The transition from steadicam to handheld is so sexy [video clip] - @ravflm

glad you think its sexy- it only happened bc rian broke the steadicam - @KnivesOut
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:52 AM on March 12, 2020 [10 favorites]

Finally got around to watching this last weekend and really enjoyed it! The last movie we’d watched, not long before, was Parasite, and I’ve been sort of swimming in half-formed thoughts about the thematic parallels between the two ever since.
posted by DoctorFedora at 2:54 PM on April 24, 2020 [3 favorites]

Small detail: Harlan began his career with a rusty typewriter and ended it with a 12-15 year old iMac.

Incidentally I’m reminded of an identical iMac in a similar study at the top of a brick mansion that hosted the swankiest dinner party I have ever attended.
posted by Monochrome at 10:53 PM on June 19, 2020 [1 favorite]

Just watched this and loved it, Craig's bad accent aside. Definitely a Johnson movie - the cinematography is *gorgeous*.

All of which of course, leads nicely to the point hammered in at the end: it's Marta's rules now.

See, the way she was holding the mug, everything is covered except the first line. The first thing she's asserting to the rest of the family is "THIS IS MY HOUSE".
posted by hanov3r at 8:29 AM on August 10, 2020 [1 favorite]

Just saw it too. Loved it. Someone upthread saying Michael Shannon is Patton Oswalt but he’s totally Bill Hader in dad drag.
posted by St. Peepsburg at 3:56 PM on January 24, 2021

We finally got around to this last night, and enjoyed it. Saying that, there was one huge, ginormous problem I had that kind of kept me from really, really liking it.

There is No. Fucking. Way. Harlow would have been so cool-headed and standing on his feet after getting 100mg IV of morphine. Yeah, he’ll be dead in 10 minutes, but until then he’ll be a slowly-melting, babbling lump of jello. Instead, he’s cool-headed, coherent, sharp-witted, and still standing on his feet. Marta should have seen that he was apparently miraculously unaffected by the supposed megadose and wondered wtf was going on.

Otherwise, it was a fun little film.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:38 PM on October 3, 2021 [1 favorite]

There is No. Fucking. Way. Harlow would have been so cool-headed and standing on his feet after getting 100mg IV of morphine. Yeah, he’ll be dead in 10 minutes, but until then he’ll be a slowly-melting, babbling lump of jello. Instead, he’s cool-headed, coherent, sharp-witted, and still standing on his feet.

I agree, but...Initially, she is completely focused on finding the Narcan (or whatever) and then panicking that she can't. By the time she realizes it's gone, Thrombey has taken command of the situation. Given that she does light in-home care rather than working in an ER, I can give her not realizing it in the, what, five minutes she has.
posted by praemunire at 8:38 PM on October 3, 2021

> Hugh / You was one of the twists that didn't work for me; it didn't feel realistic.
> posted by The corpse in the library at 10:30 PM on December 13, 2019

I thought it was freaking hilarious because I saw it as of a piece with all the little digs at the unbearable whiteness of the Thrombey family. I mean. Hugh. How much more WASP could that name be? None more WASP.
posted by MiraK at 11:44 AM on July 28, 2022 [1 favorite]

Netflix Release Date for Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery set for December 23rd. Still supposed to have a theatrical release in November, but that date is not yet announced. (Link is to People.com just fyi)
posted by the primroses were over at 8:15 AM on August 26, 2022 [1 favorite]