Game of Thrones: The Mountain and the Viper
June 1, 2014 9:07 PM - Season 4, Episode 8 - Subscribe

Mole's Town receives some unexpected visitors. Littlefinger's motives are questioned. Ramsay attempts to prove himself to his father. Tyrion's fate is decided.
posted by DynamiteToast (575 comments total) 11 users marked this as a favorite
 
Worst. Ending. Ever.
posted by Hoopo at 9:10 PM on June 1, 2014 [10 favorites]


So, uh, yeah. That's a thing that happened.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:12 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


Goodnight, sweet Prince.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:12 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


Hi Sansa, nice to finally meet you!

Arya, you always do the perfect thing.

Jesus Ramsey, you're creepy.

Oberyn, shut the fuck up and just...oh, never mind.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:12 PM on June 1, 2014 [6 favorites]


If you haven't read the books, you might be getting tired of week after week the book readers talking about how something wasn't quite like it was in the books, so to show that's not always the case let me just say that Oberyn was so perfect. Everything about him was as (if not more) loveable and admirable as the books, and the final scene was perfectly executed and just as heartbreaking as it was in the books. Great job by Pedro and the show is general.
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:12 PM on June 1, 2014 [27 favorites]


As a book reader I knew that was coming but it was still so brutal I covered my eyes. IMO that was the worst death of the series.

I didn't really care for Oberyn Martell in the books but Pedro Pascal made me love him. I am in mourning tonight.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:14 PM on June 1, 2014 [16 favorites]


On the funny side, Arya laughing was hilarious. Ramsay and Roose gave me Mufasa/Simba flashbacks. Also, once again Aidan Gillen has to contend with a Royce. And was it just me or did his accent go full Christian Bale Batman for a scene there when he was alone with Sansa?
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:15 PM on June 1, 2014 [10 favorites]


Brandon Blatcher has the wisdom of a maester.
posted by homunculus at 9:20 PM on June 1, 2014


As far as deviations from the books go, I actually really like the change they made to Sansa tonight.

IIRC, in the books, Littlefinger coaches Sansa on what to say during the investigation (they frame the murder on a minor character who wasn't present in the show).

In the show, Sansa making her own choice to lie and help Littlefinger was a huge step up in her having her own agency. IMO this is the point at which Sansa turns from pawn to player. I like how her costuming at the end suggests a bird of prey.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:21 PM on June 1, 2014 [27 favorites]


On the funny side, Arya laughing was hilarious.

It was contagious: I laughed along with her. I hope she is reunited with Sansa, but knowing this show, she and the Hound will probably get turned away.
posted by homunculus at 9:22 PM on June 1, 2014 [12 favorites]


I'm pretty sure Inigo Montoya got his revenge in similar circumstances. Why not Oberyn?
posted by Hoopo at 9:22 PM on June 1, 2014 [4 favorites]


I am not sure how I feel yet about Dark!Sansa, but I was probably more upset about Arya and the Hound not going inside (dammit just go inside and hug it out with your sister and then go do more adorable murder little girl) than I was about the head squishing.

Also, I was a little disappointed with the Missandre boobies (because she is so much more than window dressing) , but they were actually plot relevant boobies. Well done, HBO God of Tits and Wine.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:23 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


So I'm still trying to figure out what exactly they were trying to imply about Grey Worm's anatomy?

I read it as he still has at least one testicle left, but no penis (thus he has the hormones to desire a woman but no way to have PIV sex) but people on Reddit read it as him having a penis but no testicles. What say y'all?

Plausibly, he could have had an undescended testicle that was thus spared from castration when he was a boy, right?
posted by Jacqueline at 9:27 PM on June 1, 2014


So I'm still trying to figure out what exactly they were trying to imply about Grey Worm's anatomy?

They were trying to discern if he had a penis they could get all up in there.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:29 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


They could have called it "The Pillar and the Stones."

I don't feel like I got any deep meaning out of cousin Orson and his beetles. What did I miss?
posted by mzurer at 9:29 PM on June 1, 2014 [6 favorites]


I'm pretty sure Inigo Montoya got his revenge in similar circumstances. Why not Oberyn?

Well, Inigo Montoya was a fair bit smarter about it; though what happens in a trial by combat when both contestants die? I don't think the Mountain's coming back after that. Which'll spare us a fourth recasting I suppose.

Also I like Sansa as Junior Littlefinger a lot better than the Sansa as Danaerys II that internet people have been pushing (because, hell, Dany's moving slow enough as is; how old is Sansa going to be when she fully embraces her destiny, 45? And besides repeating the same arc is boring)
posted by furiousthought at 9:29 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


I took it to mean he lost the pillar, but I'm pretty fuzzy on how eunuchizing worked in the middle ages. Even if the pillar and stones were gone though I guess he could still want her?
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:31 PM on June 1, 2014


Also, Sansa actually looked like Cat descending the staircase. Did they darken her hair, or was that just the backlighting?
posted by mzurer at 9:31 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


I don't feel like I got any deep meaning out of cousin Orson and his beetles. What did I miss?

That there is no deeper meaning.
posted by homunculus at 9:31 PM on June 1, 2014 [9 favorites]


Also I like Sansa as Junior Littlefinger a lot better than the Sansa as Danaerys II that internet people have been pushing...

My favorite futurefic fanfic trope is Sansa ending up as the Master of Whispers on Daenarys's Small Council.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:32 PM on June 1, 2014 [7 favorites]


I don't feel like I got any deep meaning out of cousin Orson and his beetles. What did I miss?

It was Olsen, wasn't it? Anyway, I took it as a God analogy. The beetles are people and they keep getting squished.

Some more than others.
posted by Sys Rq at 9:33 PM on June 1, 2014 [4 favorites]


Tyrion's fate is decided.

Before the initial trial, Tyrion asked Jamie to help him escape, but Jamie had faith in the trial and refused. Now that he knows better, I expect Jamie is going to help him escape, perhaps with assistance from Varys. But with Tyrion's luck, he'll probably get captured by Davos and Salladhor. Maybe Tyrion and Melisandre will have beautiful shadow babies together.
posted by homunculus at 9:33 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


Kinda want to watch the whole episode again right now in a way that no other episode has inspired. Didn't miss Cersei or Tywin one bit.
posted by mzurer at 9:33 PM on June 1, 2014


I don't feel like I got any deep meaning out of cousin Orson and his beetles. What did I miss?

Pointless slaughter is pointless.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:33 PM on June 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


God damn it, that fight was so cool, but when Oberyn wouldn't shut up and finish him I knew, I knew it was going to end poorly. Augh I'm so upset and sad.

If there's one thing you can count on in this story, it's Lannister plot armor.
posted by Sokka shot first at 9:35 PM on June 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


I don't feel like I got any deep meaning out of cousin Orson and his beetles. What did I miss?

Emo Tyrion identified with the bug or it's unknowable why bad stuff happens.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:35 PM on June 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


Sansa's new theme. it looked to me like her hair was straight black in that last shot.
posted by Diablevert at 9:36 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


When the Wildings were entering the town at the beginning and the music went all bright and pulsing, I was convinced the show was about to score that scene to "Benny & The Jets"...
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:36 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


Oh man, I hated the score for that part of the show. It stuck out to me in a way that score almost never does.
posted by mzurer at 9:37 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


Where did Sansa get the Maleficent dress so quickly? Was that Lysa's "mourning my dead husband but really I killed him" dress?
posted by almostmanda at 9:41 PM on June 1, 2014 [5 favorites]


Littlefinger says to Robin: "Everybody dies, sooner or later. Don't worry about your death. Worry about your life. Take charge of your life, for as long as it lasts. That is what it means to be Lord of Vale." Cut to Sansa entering the room in her new dress with the imposing shoulderpads.

I think that dialogue/editing/costume choices combination was not accidental, but was meant to strongly imply that Sansa is no longer afraid and is taking charge now.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:41 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


though what happens in a trial by combat when both contestants die

I think probably the one that's still technically alive is the winner for all intents and purposes. And yeah, if a little nick on the neck of the Hound is being foreshadowed as a problem, being impaled is most likely fatal in the GoT world even if you still have some fight in you for a few minutes. So I guess Oberyn might have gotten his revenge after all. But that still sucked pillars and stones.
posted by Hoopo at 9:43 PM on June 1, 2014 [7 favorites]


But with Tyrion's luck, he'll probably get captured by Davos and Salladhor.

With Tyrion's luck he will wind up being captured by Ironborn, who will then wind up trying to surrender to the next ship they see, which will be Gendry, rowing along. Tyrion will hop aboard Gendry's boat and then the Ironborn ship will spontaneously sink. Ironborn: The Vikings That Suck
posted by furiousthought at 9:44 PM on June 1, 2014 [15 favorites]


Where did Sansa get the Maleficent dress so quickly? Was that Lysa's "mourning my dead husband but really I killed him" dress?

They're in castle, no doubt Lysa had cloth makers and older dresses. Sansa clearly is making a statement.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:44 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


mzurer: "I don't feel like I got any deep meaning out of cousin Orson and his beetles. What did I miss?"

My interpretation was that up to this point Jaime hoped that Tyrion hadn't killed Joffrey. He defended Tyrion to his father and sister because he loved Tyrion dearly, and he was pretty sure Tyrion hadn't done it, but he wasn't absolutely certain until Tyrion told the beetle story. You could see it on Jaime's face: he finally knew without a doubt that Tyrion didn't have it in him to be a ruthless killer like that.
posted by bluecore at 9:46 PM on June 1, 2014 [19 favorites]


Wasn't she sewing up something when Littlefinger went to talk to her? I guess I assumed it was sadness cross-stitching, but she could have been altering a dress.
posted by almostmanda at 9:47 PM on June 1, 2014 [6 favorites]


I think that dialogue/editing/costume choices combination was not accidental, but was meant to strongly imply that Sansa is no longer afraid and is taking charge now.

It's Littlefinger who's Lord of the Vale, no? Sansa would be the Lady. I think you can read the line as applying equally to them both, which really gets at the crux of the interesting tension in their relationship at the mo. The more he teaches her the more dangerous to him she will become. And you know, I know we're all for female empowerment and such, but Sansa, babe --- you don't, in fact, know him. "Confident in my ability to control" is definitely not the attitude you want to take toward Littlefinger. It's a nice dress but you gotta lot of leveling up to do before you hit Lady Macbeth, which is about where you need to be to take on Lord Petyr Baelish.
posted by Diablevert at 9:48 PM on June 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


I actually feel like they could've taken Dark Sansa's outfit down a few notches. She looked like the bad guys from Chronicles Of Riddick got hold of her…
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:48 PM on June 1, 2014 [7 favorites]


She looked like Princess Lili on her way to dance with Darkness.
posted by elizardbits at 9:50 PM on June 1, 2014 [3 favorites]


Robin Arryn is still Lord of the Vale. Baelish is Lord protector til he comes of age and Sansa is a Lady, but not Lady of the Vale or anything.
posted by DynamiteToast at 9:52 PM on June 1, 2014


My interpretation was that up to this point Jaime hoped that Tyrion hadn't killed Joffrey. He defended Tyrion to his father and sister because he loved Tyrion dearly, and he was pretty sure Tyrion hadn't done it, but he wasn't absolutely certain until Tyrion told the beetle story. You could see it on Jaime's face: he finally knew without a doubt that Tyrion didn't have it in him to be a ruthless killer like that.

Ok, that actually makes a lot of sense. At the time I had taken it to be another Waiting-For-Godot type bit like in the previous episode. Thanks!
posted by furiousthought at 9:54 PM on June 1, 2014


And you know, I know we're all for female empowerment and such, but Sansa, babe --- you don't, in fact, know him.

My money's on Sansa. Not sure how it's going to go down with those two, other than Sansa is going to gain the most.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:55 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


It's Littlefinger who's Lord of the Vale, no?

Robin is the Lord of the Vale. Littlefinger is merely the Lord Protector until Robin comes of age. For Sansa to be Lady of the Vale she would have to marry Robin.

Sansa is a Lady, but not Lady of the Vale or anything.

Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell by her own birthright as long as no one knows that Bran and Rickon are alive. Theoretically she could rule Winterfell herself (like Lady Mormont rules Bear Island) although traditionally her husband would rule it in her name until her eldest son came of age. But that's currently academic because the Boltons hold the North, so they and the Lannisters (who granted the Boltons control of the North) would have to be disposed of before Sansa would be able to assert her claim.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:56 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


Robin Arryn is still Lord of the Vale. Baelish is Lord protector til he comes of age and Sansa is a Lady, but not Lady of the Vale or anything.

I follow you, but I meant on a symbolic level. Titles are titles, but sole control of an unconquerable castle, that's money. "People can die just any old where!" (claps hands on shoulder, offers wolfish grin) was the bit of the dialogue in that scene that, reading between the lines, seemed most relevant to Robin's situation....
posted by Diablevert at 9:57 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


Can we talk about how fucking awesome Sansa's dress was the last time they showed her? that was some Maleficent shit. It's one of the coolest wardrobe items the show has ever had.
posted by emptythought at 10:02 PM on June 1, 2014 [11 favorites]


Titles are titles, but sole control of an unconquerable castle, that's money.

Titles are important in that no one in Westeros has a centralized army beholden to them. The various minor Lords sworn to the major Houses are the ones who put up the fighting men to defend various claims, so if your Lords aren't behind you, you're screwed. Those minor Lords care a lot about titles and the ones in the Vale don't really care for Littlefinger so he can't just do what he wants because he currently occupies the Eyrie -- the men defending it are not loyal to him.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:03 PM on June 1, 2014


oh wow i quickfired on that one, it's already come up. i just finished the episode though, and i was blown away by that dress.
posted by emptythought at 10:03 PM on June 1, 2014


Loved hearing the Viper's teeth scatter; in a series filled with brutal death, that's one of the worst ones and I wasn't sure if they would do it. Yowza.

Just want to say that I am becoming increasingly disappointed with how the TV series is handling Littlefinger; I get that they want to pull Sansa more to the fore, but Littlefinger is the master plotter and planner who has been building towards these moments for years; seeing him left speechless and defenseless and needing to be saved just undermines the character. It was just a couple of episodes ago where everyone was agog over the shape of the plan Littlefinger had, and then he's reduced to a mumbling man who can't get a word in.

Off to bed, more coherent thoughts in the morning.
posted by nubs at 10:05 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


speaking of sansa though, was anyone else bugged by the you-could-see-it-coming-2-minutes-away scene where sansa stares at littlefinger over the shoulder of the person she's hugging? That was some of the most cheesy "OH GOD PLEASE DONT DO IT PLEASE NOOOOOOO" cornball shit they've ever put in the show. Does that routine have a page on tvtropes? because holy crap has that horse been beat into an unrecognizable pulp.
posted by emptythought at 10:07 PM on June 1, 2014 [4 favorites]


If you're excited about Sansa and don't mind book spoilers, I recommend the "From Pawn to Player" threads on westeros.org. I think this one has links to all the relevant discussions, essays, etc.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:11 PM on June 1, 2014 [1 favorite]


...sansa stares at littlefinger over the shoulder of the person she's hugging... holy crap has that horse been beat into an unrecognizable pulp.

But people do that in real life all the time.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:12 PM on June 1, 2014 [7 favorites]


...Littlefinger is the master plotter and planner who has been building towards these moments for years; seeing him left speechless and defenseless and needing to be saved just undermines the character.

Well, I think the point was that his actions in the last episode were driven by emotion instead of his usual cold calculations. His emotions are what get him in trouble and he's never been able to think clearly or act rationally as far as Tully women were concerned.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:16 PM on June 1, 2014 [4 favorites]


I wonder if Oberyn's death is going to piss off Dorne enough to fuck with the Lannisters. Since the Dornish tradition grants women the right to rule, they could support Myrcella as the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. That would create a fascinating conundrum for the Lannisters; Tywin would hate it, but I wonder how Cersei would react.
posted by homunculus at 10:19 PM on June 1, 2014 [4 favorites]


Sansa dyed her hair the same color as Catelyn's hair. She really does know what Littlefinger wants! He is the creepiest creeper who ever creeped.

I felt bad for Ser Jorah.

This episode really shows the strengths and weaknesses less strong parts of the show. The first half was fine and yeah it was all stuff necessary to move the plot forward but I was watching it simply to get through to the good bits. And then the scenes of Sansa talking to Littlefinger and, particularly, Tyrion and Jaime doing nothing but talking in such an honestly brotherly way had me absolutely riveted. The show is best when it is doing its own thing and letting the fine actors it has hired do their things too. It is at its least strong when it is slavishly following the plot of the books and awkwardly pushing the chess pieces around the board. Book purists, imo, are actively seeking a worse show.
posted by Justinian at 10:22 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


Also Sansa looked like a hot cenobite at the end.
posted by Justinian at 10:23 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


"Hot" and "cenobite" is redundant.

(Clicks jaws together relentlessly.)
posted by Bunny Ultramod at 10:26 PM on June 1, 2014 [12 favorites]


I've read the books twice and the fight at the end had me on the edge of my seat with my heart in my throat.
posted by KathrynT at 10:31 PM on June 1, 2014 [5 favorites]


My money's on Sansa. Not sure how it's going to go down with those two, other than Sansa is going to gain the most.

Long term, I'd be fine with that, and I'm definitely excited to see how their relationship develops. But I think it's a delicate balance to strike for it to come off successfully; I don't think it works for Sansa the 16 year old virgin to all of a sudden be leading LF around by the nose because he really, really wants to bone her/her mom. The obsession is there and it's an important part if his character, and I'm sure it'll trip him up --- but as has also been established, he's also the guy who spent twenty-odd years as apparently the world's only celibate whoremonger, so determined was he to never let his feelings for a woman be used to humiliate or harm him. His creepy obsession with Sansa is definitely a vulnerable spot, but it shouldn't mean he's been entirely defanged, as it were.


Titles are important in that no one in Westeros has a centralized army beholden to them. The various minor Lords sworn to the major Houses are the ones who put up the fighting men to defend various claims, so if your Lords aren't behind you, you're screwed. Those minor Lords care a lot about titles and the ones in the Vale don't really care for Littlefinger so he can't just do what he wants because he currently occupies the Eyrie -- the men defending it are not loyal to him.

I follow you --- I was the one, back in the last thread, flipping out about this very issue, how LF was going to turn his Lord Protector status into such absolute control that he'd be able to openly oppose the Lannisters with the Vale's backing. IMO, this episode rather neatly and swiftly showed how that could be done --- Sansa handed him a huge gift, with her Tale of How Lord Baelish Saved Me From Evil Queen Cersei, and the rest is cake --- appeal to their pride, tell them Everything I do, I do it for Lord Robin, conduct the Robin's Education world tour to butter everyone up/learn any blackmailable secrets, and when the time seems right, maybe you reveal that Cersei killed John Arryn and declare yourself in open revolt. Or whatever other device comes to hand --- maybe some other method will work better. But exactly how LF plans to make himself the indispensable man in the Vale now seems clear.
posted by Diablevert at 10:41 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


And you know, I know we're all for female empowerment and such, but Sansa, babe --- you don't, in fact, know him.

I think she she does. I guess it's different in the books, but on the show Littlefinger looks utterly smitten with her to me.
posted by homunculus at 10:44 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


This photo of Lena Headey and Pedro Pascal took on a whole new meaning tonight!
posted by Justinian at 11:07 PM on June 1, 2014 [27 favorites]


And yeah, if a little nick on the neck of the Hound is being foreshadowed as a problem, being impaled is most likely fatal in the GoT world even if you still have some fight in you for a few minutes.

The Fall of the House of Clegane.
posted by homunculus at 11:09 PM on June 1, 2014 [2 favorites]


but Littlefinger is the master plotter and planner who has been building towards these moments for years; seeing him left speechless and defenseless and needing to be saved just undermines the character.

I'm not sure I agree that LF in the books is such a master schemer; I think if anything the show has made him more that way. In the books he definitely plots, but it's not like he always has full control or is seeing eight moves ahead or anything. He adapts to new circumstances, that's one of his strengths.

So he wasn't fully in control of what Sansa said in that scene, no--but he had been laying a foundation with her so that her supporting his story wasn't completely out of the blue. I think the scene showed Sansa starting to take control (rejecting the Alayne cover story) but was also a vindication of LF's planning and manipulation (Sansa doesn't really have anywhere else to turn, AND LF has shown her that a degree of power, at least, is there for the taking).
posted by torticat at 11:14 PM on June 1, 2014


I don't feel like I got any deep meaning out of cousin Orson and his beetles. What did I miss?

Good responses to this above already... I thought it was about Tyrion's facing death and his asking "what does it mean?" at the end was his pleading with Jaime for some understanding about why his life is about to be snuffed out as if it means no more than a beetle's.

He starts the conversation by talking about how trial by combat tells you something about the gods... Orson in the story is the gods and the beetles are the people dying pointlessly all the time. Jaime doesn't get it at first--makes the direct comparison between beetles and people and asks why Tyrion cares about the beetles. But by the end he understands, although he has nothing of comfort to offer, no answer to the question except "I don't know."

That speech of Tyrion's is original to the show and was really lovely I thought. Funny (and offensive--poor Orson!) and really moving, as Jaime sits there trying to figure out this odd brother of his, who is so intellectually and philosophically curious--not to mention compassionate, not a common Lannister family trait--and so sad and vulnerable in talking about his own fate. It was remarkable that the show was willing to give all that time to Tyrion's monologue and to let the emotions play out between the brothers in a pretty subtle way.
posted by torticat at 11:50 PM on June 1, 2014 [11 favorites]


What if Tyrion went to the Vale?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 11:58 PM on June 1, 2014


Technically, he'd be reunited with his wife aka awkward.

But nevermind that, what if Arya manages to get inside the Vale and meetup with her sister?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:02 AM on June 2, 2014


I'm obsessed with Petyr Baelish, but I keep wanting to mock Sansa... Sansa think she bad, Sansa smirkin' on down the stairs like she ready for the goth prom...

Then I remembered myself at that age, letting an older guy who played "villain," with a duster coat and all, and who had the most dubious of motives, tip airline bottles of vodka into my teenage throat...

I just got how true this character might really be.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 12:13 AM on June 2, 2014 [26 favorites]


I wonder if Oberyn's death is going to piss off Dorne enough to fuck with the Lannisters.

His daughters, the Sand Snakes, have been mentioned, so like Chekvov's gun...
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:13 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Heh. So y'all remember /r/gayforoberyn? Someone already made /r/necroforoberyn.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:15 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


We had to pause for RL stuff right after the Grey Worm/Missandei scene and my husband asked me baffled why I was sniffing. Because that is Jane Austen level romance. There was so much in that scene, the careful way they talked to each other, their awareness of dignity and respect, and just swooningly good.

I left the room for the battle and do not regret that.
posted by viggorlijah at 12:25 AM on June 2, 2014 [23 favorites]


I left the room for the battle and do not regret that.

You should watch the battle but then turn it off as soon as the Mountain goes down. Then you can enjoy the good parts and not have to see the horrible part.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:32 AM on June 2, 2014 [9 favorites]


I do hope the next episode includes a scene of Ellaria Sand slapping the smug grin off Cersei's face, though I fear the Kingsguard wouldn't let her get away with it.
posted by homunculus at 12:42 AM on June 2, 2014


When Roose Bolton gave Ramsay the document which officially makes him a Bolton, I wondered if he had actually just signed his own death warrant. Ramsay is next in line to inherit the North now. They say the family that flays together stays together, but just how much real affection does Ramsay actually have for his father?

And I wonder if a seed of his former identity has been planted in Reek. Ramsay's line about remembering our history might come back to haunt him the next time he gets a shave.
posted by homunculus at 12:53 AM on June 2, 2014 [8 favorites]


Few comments:

Loving the development of Sansa. I think there was an interesting scene between her and Lysa in Ep6 - Sansa was acting all scared and childlike, but I got the impression she was only acting, because she knew that she'd gain sympathy and be treated like she wasn't a threat. Definitely an extension of that in this episode. #Sansa Tzu's Art of War.

Fight scene was great, even knowing what was coming. I could have done with less gore but
oh well.

The Loras/Oberyn fans will be disappointed they didn't get a scene together.

The show is getting increasingly divergent from the books. Not sure how I feel about that. Also, there was a nice Easter Egg for bookreaders in this one.
posted by Pink Frost at 1:03 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Considering they are going to pack 4 books worth of material into the last 3 seasons of the series and 2 of those books aren't even written yet I'm thinking you're likely to have to get pretty comfortable with divergences from the books.
posted by Justinian at 1:22 AM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


I got my shades of Inigo vs. Ruben out of the combat, and that was really all I asked!
posted by ChuraChura at 1:41 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also, I was a little disappointed with the Missandre boobies

I assume you mean Missandei.
posted by homunculus at 1:44 AM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


> I'm glad I'm not the only person who saw Dario 2.0 vs. Mereenese Champion as having echoes of the Indy vs. Scimitar Dude scene in Raiders of the Lost Ark (ref: Sepinwall).

Another comparison.
posted by homunculus at 2:20 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Considering they are going to pack 4 books worth of material into the last 3 seasons of the series and 2 of those books aren't even written yet I'm thinking you're likely to have to get pretty comfortable with divergences from the books.

Fair point :) I'm kinda hoping that there will be more than 7 seasons. Is it confirmed anywhere that they are stopping at 7? I've seen interviews where they say that, but others where they talk about potentially doing more.
posted by Pink Frost at 3:16 AM on June 2, 2014


i swear i recently saw somewhere mentioning them doing 8 or 9 now, but i can't actually find it. I did find this.

whatever happens, i hope it doesn't end up feeling dumb and crammed in like the half-seasons ending of mad men.
posted by emptythought at 3:34 AM on June 2, 2014


Yes, my SO pointed out that the Moat Cailin scene was from A Dance with Dragons, which is the most recent book, while the other story arcs are from earlier books. Not sure if that is actually the case. I accepted this on blind faith, as it has been so long since I read the books that the show continues to be surprising to me ("Oberyn DIES?!?!? Holy shit!" "Wait, WHO'S holding Moat Cailin now?" "I am totally lost on the wildlings arc. What's up with the baby?")
posted by chainsofreedom at 3:35 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm pretty sure Inigo Montoya got his revenge in similar circumstances. Why not Oberyn?

Because this is GoT!

They made the allusion to Princess Bride more overt than I expected though. But it became increasingly grim (compared to "you killed my father") as Oberyn kept repeating "you raped my sister and killed her children [in addition to killing her]." And then with the skull crushing... it was Inigo Montoya turned very, very black.

I agree with Jacqueline that Oberyn's death in the show was so much worse than it was in the books. Not even the execution of it (though that was, without doubt, the worst death on the show yet from the viewer's POV) so much as that show-Oberyn was just full of joy. Pedro Pascal brought things to that character that GRRM never did.
posted by torticat at 5:16 AM on June 2, 2014 [13 favorites]


I wonder if Oberyn's death is going to piss off Dorne enough to fuck with the Lannisters.

His daughters, the Sand Snakes, have been mentioned, so like Chekvov's gun...


Oberyn will have his revenge posthumously. He was able to coax out of The Mountain a public confession of the rape and murder of Dornish royalty. The Mountain, being a vassal of the Lannisters, and Dorne being a much-needed ally to King's Landing in whatever shit is going to go down next season, this will hopefully have far-reaching effects. Cercei's daughter is in Dorne. She's the new old-Sansa, now that there is a new badass Sansa in the Eyrie.

When Roose Bolton gave Ramsay the document which officially makes him a Bolton, I wondered if he had actually just signed his own death warrant.

Such a mistake to let that creep be your next-in-line.
posted by GrapeApiary at 5:54 AM on June 2, 2014 [6 favorites]


Because that is Jane Austen level romance. There was so much in that scene, the careful way they talked to each other, their awareness of dignity and respect, and just swooningly good.

I agree. Of course being HBO the tipping point between them had to be BOOBS--but the relationship had already been established on an intellectual level, so I can give it a pass.

Also I am just happy that the show some of the POC a deeper inner life instead of using them merely as servants or props. Even if it's just in the service of killing time in Mereen... it is very very welcome. I hope Missandei and Grey Worm are given lots more screen time, because they are both excellent. Grey Worm's speech about embracing his horrendous past because it has led him to where he is at present was complicated and heartbreaking.

Certainly much more interesting than the way the show is killing time in the North with Ramsey's sadistic antics... ugh so boring.
posted by torticat at 5:55 AM on June 2, 2014 [12 favorites]


Knowing that this is where the story was going, now I'm even more impressed that Oberyn's bisexuality was played up so much. 95% of the time, male bisexuality in media exists purely for plot reasons. Usually it's a villain/antihero, and their bisexuality is just a reflection on their wholely duplicitous nature. It's a way for men to use sex as a weapon against other men (and, notably, it's gay men who are victims when that happens, never straight men).

And this wasn't that at all! Oberyn's integrity was strengthened by his openness about being attracted to everyone. His downfall was showmanship, not lust. And it only took about 3 episodes for him to become my favorite part of the show. A+++ for Pedro Pascal.
posted by almostmanda at 5:58 AM on June 2, 2014 [41 favorites]


almostmanda: "Wasn't she sewing up something when Littlefinger went to talk to her?"

I thought cross stitch too, not a dress.

Did they have sex after that scene? Was it consensual? I watched that scene thinking that Sansa had better have a knife beside her bed to fight off Littlefinger.
posted by I am the Walrus at 6:18 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I was happy to see a scene with Ygritte in it. And she let Gilly and her baby live! Big sigh of relief.

Maybe someday soon we'll get a Ygritte/Jon Snow reunion, and he can do that fun thing to her with his mouth again.
posted by hush at 6:21 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Did they have sex after that scene? Was it consensual? I watched that scene thinking that Sansa had better have a knife beside her bed to fight off Littlefinger.

I doubt that they had sex. Sansa's maidenhead has a lot of value to whoever Littlefinger chooses to bargain it to. But that doesn't rule other stuff out.
posted by corb at 6:24 AM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


I don't think Sansa bedded him or let him bed her. Right now she's officially supposed to marry Robin when she becomes a widow.

I thought she died her hair 1 to look like Catelyn more, but 2 to allow her to travel with the Robin band without being detected as Sansa.

She thinks she maybe playing him, playing up her likeness to Catelyn and his weakness for her, but watching to ensure she's not thrown out a moondoor too. She's dressing very womanly to throw her off being little lady sansa stark, but I think she's holding herself very away from him.

I cannot remember if she knows about the incest that brought forth the 'Baratheon' children.
posted by tilde at 6:25 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


When Roose Bolton gave Ramsay the document which officially makes him a Bolton, I wondered if he had actually just signed his own death warrant.

Currently he doesn't have any heir. He just got the entire North, but if he dies it would go to.. I don't know whom... the Freys maybe? At least this way it goes to a Bolton, even if it's a psycho Bolton. The way GoT inheritance law works, I think if he goes on to have a legitimate child, it would inherit over Ramsey.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:28 AM on June 2, 2014


"Size does not matter when you're flat on your back."

Well, that was some icky foreshadowing alright. And the "squashed bettles" bit?

THEY MEANT HIS EYES. nooooooo!!!!!

Farewell, Oberyn -- we hardly knew ye!
posted by hush at 6:28 AM on June 2, 2014


I've never read the books so I had no idea which way the Oberyn fight was going to go and I always have to remind myself that Martin almost never makes the plot choices that would happen in a normal Hollywood production. It's refreshing but still disconcerting.
posted by octothorpe at 6:40 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Did they have sex after that scene? Was it consensual?

They did not. HBO has never been shy about letting viewers know when characters have had sex.

Sansa's smart enough to play Littlefinger, it's just a question of how far she can go and whether she knows how far she can. Judging by that dress, she has some ideas.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:41 AM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


The Fall of the House of Clegane.

And Winter is coming... ?

The way GoT inheritance law works, I think if he goes on to have a legitimate child, it would inherit over Ramsey.

My interpretation is that his having the name makes him legitimate and the heir. The question that was asked to me was, "If that's all it takes, why wouldn't Ned Stark have done that for Jon Snow?" What I responded was that it would have been an insult to Cat, but perhaps it is even more complicated than that.
posted by tempestuoso at 6:42 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Did they have sex after that scene? Was it consensual? I watched that scene thinking that Sansa had better have a knife beside her bed to fight off Littlefinger.

I really don't think he likes her like that. Or much at all, even, except as an easily manipulated ally. Yes, there was the kiss, and the 'Yo mamma' speech, but those both really seem a lot more like opportunist conniving than anything. The kiss, so Lysa would see and get jealous and yada yada yada and Sansa sees the murder as furthering her own self-preservation -- which is Sansa's whole deal -- and then Littlefinger has an alibi. The 'Yo mamma' speech is basically just saying, "Look, I know you think I'm a slimy manipulative weasel, but actually I am very deeply loyal to you and your family because reasons."

[THE FOLLOWING PARAGRAPH CONTAINS ONLY WILD SPECULATION. I HAVE NOT READ THE BOOKS.]

I think maybe since the old folks didn't seem to find Littlefinger's rushed marriage to a loony all that legitimate, he might move onto a Plan B in which Sansa marries Robin, Robin gets a booboo, and then Littlefinger marries Sansa and gets his fancy castle that way.
posted by Sys Rq at 6:49 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Sansa is the Lady of Winterfell by her own birthright as long as no one knows that Bran and Rickon are alive. Theoretically she could rule Winterfell herself (like Lady Mormont rules Bear Island) although traditionally her husband would rule it in her name until her eldest son came of age. But that's currently academic because the Boltons hold the North, so they and the Lannisters (who granted the Boltons control of the North) would have to be disposed of before Sansa would be able to assert her claim.

And I'm pretty sure that castle the Boltons were riding towards at the end of their segment was Winterfell; in other words, they are laying claim to the North not only in name but also now symbolically as well.

I'm not sure I agree that LF in the books is such a master schemer; I think if anything the show has made him more that way. In the books he definitely plots, but it's not like he always has full control or is seeing eight moves ahead or anything. He adapts to new circumstances, that's one of his strengths.

In the books, when he`s confronted by the Lords of the Vale, he has his story down and he knows enough about who is confronting him to lay out some incentives to ensure he isn`t challenged in his role as Lord Protector - or at least to buy enough time to deal with his most strident opposition while the majority begin to work with him. He`s not dependent on Sansa coming in and spinning her own web without any input or coaching from him.

I`m really pleased to see Sansa gain more agency on the show; it just feels like it`s being done at the expense of Littlefinger`s characterization. But I guess I`m just another book reader gripping about something, so I`ll just go sit in the corner and mutter.

"Size does not matter when you're flat on your back."

Well, that was some icky foreshadowing alright.


If you want foreshadowing, go back an episode and listen to the conversation Bronn and Tyrion have. Bronn essentially tells you how this fight goes down.
posted by nubs at 6:49 AM on June 2, 2014 [12 favorites]


Sansa's smart enough to play Littlefinger

Yes, she is, and she finally is realizing it. Although many folks seem to think he cannot be outwitted, Littlefinger is not infallible. Tyrion got the best him in season two when he tested the loyalties of Varys, Littlefinger, and Pycelle. Littlefinger was pretty upset about being made a pawn. A bit of irony there, since he had been sent to the Vale on the premise of marrying Myrcella to Robin. Now Myrcella is in Dorne and Sansa, Tyrion's wife, is promised to Robin.
posted by tempestuoso at 6:51 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


As a book reader, I've thought this season has been pretty terrible. Especially so whenever D&D decided to change something with the plot and substitute their fan-fic. Not so much that it's deviating from the books, but more that the overall direction and pacing have been abysmal.

This episode was definitely a highlight, however. I even liked the major change to Sansa, and I'm actually excited to see where it takes her character. That beetle squishing conversation though... dear God.
posted by codacorolla at 6:57 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Sansa's maidenhead has a lot of value to whoever Littlefinger chooses to bargain it to.

Surely that's going to be a tough sell, considering she's been married. We might know that they haven't consummated the marriage, but there's no reason a potential suitor would think that, especially given Tyrion's reputation.
posted by Ian A.T. at 6:57 AM on June 2, 2014


I really don't think he likes her like that.

I'm pretty sure Baelish is romantic of sorts and likes her exactly like that. But he's patient, willing to wait and seduce/groom her in some fashion. Sansa may have other plans, emphasis on may.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:58 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


As a book reader, I've thought this season has been pretty terrible. Especially so whenever D&D decided to change something with the plot and substitute their fan-fic. Not so much that it's deviating from the books, but more that the overall direction and pacing have been abysmal.

I don't know. I haven't read the books and I've found that the direction and pacing of this season have been a vast improvement over the previous one. I'm liking it a lot.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:03 AM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


tempestuoso: ""If that's all it takes, why wouldn't Ned Stark have done that for Jon Snow?" What I responded was that it would have been an insult to Cat, but perhaps it is even more complicated than that."

It would have been an insult to the Tully family and anyone aligned with them, including Ned's father-figure Jon Arryn and possibly even his king Robert Baratheon
posted by I am the Walrus at 7:08 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


I'm pretty sure Baelish is romantic of sorts and likes her exactly like that.

Baelish likes the chase. He's always climbing, always going for something bigger. Sansa would do well to play coy.

As a book reader, I've thought this season has been pretty terrible. Especially so whenever D&D decided to change something with the plot and substitute their fan-fic

As a book reader, I've been much, much happier with D&D's take on things (outside of that ridiculous business at Craster's Keep).
posted by bfranklin at 7:09 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


torticat: "I agree with Jacqueline that Oberyn's death in the show was so much worse than it was in the books."

I learned tonight after watching the episode after turning to my watching partner that apparently my vision of his death in the books was far worse than the TV.

Me: "Well that wasn't as bad as I expected! Really kinda relieved, honestly, based on what I was expecting!"
Her: "8((((((( z.o.m.g.w.t.f."
posted by barnacles at 7:10 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


This season has felt to me like something that is more confidently being its own thing rather than something that is slavishly trying to be faithful to the books.
posted by vbfg at 7:12 AM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


I loved Oberyn/Inigo Montoya and even knowing what was coming I had a moment of hope when the Mountain was finally down. This show and George RR are the best at kindling that tiny bit of hope in order to squash it mercilessly. Like a beetle.
posted by chatongriffes at 7:25 AM on June 2, 2014 [13 favorites]


This season has felt to me like something that is more confidently being its own thing rather than something that is slavishly trying to be faithful to the books.

It hasn't ever been slavishly faithful to the books, IMO. It deviated in the very first scene in the very first episode. I think it's differed for good reasons when necessary to keep readers engaged in all aspects of all the plots, and to fulfill real-world obligations with actors and other limitations of budget and time.

I have been frustrated when new sub-plots that I felt added very little were added to the story-line, but then I have been relieved when the writers course-corrected back to the original plot. Such was the case with Bran at Craster's. I have learned to just trust that the writers know what they're doing, more or less.

The dialog for the show has borrowed from future books many times. In the case of Sansa's and Littlefinger's plots, I think it may be a case of D&D knowing more about the long-term story than we do. They have access to GRRM. They have access to unpublished manuscripts. They probably have access to discarded drafts that George edited out.

The Tyrion beetle discussion (did anyone, like me say, "hey, that's not a beetle!" when Tyrion picked up the pill bug?) seemed very much like GRRM-style writing, I thought. I kind of wondered at its genesis.
posted by tempestuoso at 7:28 AM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


The original thread announcing FanFare specified that no discussion of the books would be allowed, but this thread is full of comments about the books*. Has this policy changed?

*I don't consider these comments spoilers really, but they are awfully boring to read.
posted by valeries at 7:34 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


The original thread announcing FanFare specified that no discussion of the books would be allowed, but this thread is full of comments about the books*. Has this policy changed?

Well, it says this:

"Within threads about an episode, feel free to discuss anything that took place in that episode or in previous episodes, and we only ask that you don't make references to spoilers from future episodes nor from books or comics the work was based on."

That does not say no discussion of books. It says no spoilers from the books.
posted by tempestuoso at 7:37 AM on June 2, 2014 [10 favorites]


The original thread announcing FanFare specified that no discussion of the books would be allowed

It didn't.

It specified that no spoilers from the books would be allowed. So you're allowed to say, "Jon Snow didn't get on his horse the exact right way from the book in that scene when he runs away from the wildlings, and that ruined the scene for me,"* but not, "If you guys think Danaerys is badass now, just wait until she gets bitten by a radioactive spider" (or whatever the hell actually happens in the book).

*This is an actual criticism I have read, from more than one person.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 7:42 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


he's also the guy who spent twenty-odd years as apparently the world's only celibate whoremonger

Baelish hasn't been celibate, merely selective. Clearly he bedded Lysa some time ago.

Baelish likes the chase. He's always climbing, always going for something bigger. Sansa would do well to play coy.

Sansa would do well to simply play. There's much that Baelish is willing to teach her, without beating and abusing her. And judging from that kiss, she's open to the idea of other things, in time.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:42 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


"If you guys think Danaerys is badass now, just wait until she gets bitten by a radioactive spider" (or whatever the hell actually happens in the book).

I would watch the shit out of a Spider-Khaleesi show.
posted by almostmanda at 7:48 AM on June 2, 2014 [6 favorites]


The original thread announcing FanFare specified that no discussion of spiders would be allowed
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 7:50 AM on June 2, 2014 [36 favorites]


When Roose Bolton gave Ramsay the document which officially makes him a Bolton, I wondered if he had actually just signed his own death warrant. Ramsay is next in line to inherit the North now. They say the family that flays together stays together, but just how much real affection does Ramsay actually have for his father?

It's never a good idea to trust Ramsay, but the title of "Warden of the [direction]" isn't a heritable title in Westeros. This was established when Jon Arryn died, and the title of Warden of the East was given to Jaime Lannister.
posted by norm at 7:51 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


If you guys think Danaerys is badass now, just wait until she gets bitten by a radioactive spider

That almost happened in season 3, but then she was saved by Barristan Selmy, and that was totally different than how it happened in the books. But here is a case in point: in the books, the narrative style is different because what you see is limited to what is described and what you imagine. In the show, you instantly would recognize him, whether or not he's got a beard and a walking stick.

Discussing narrative choices for the show vs. narrative choices in the original story is an interesting discussion to have in some cases.
posted by tempestuoso at 7:54 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Brandon Blatcher has the wisdom of a maester.

word.
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 7:56 AM on June 2, 2014


the title of "Warden of the [direction]" isn't a heritable title in Westeros

Even if there's no kingdom to inherit, the entire House Bolton line would die out with Roose if he didn't make Ramsey a true Bolton.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:57 AM on June 2, 2014


Am I the only one who doesn't see why "the gods'' decision is clear in this case? Didn't both champions die?
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 7:57 AM on June 2, 2014


Relatedly, I don't like all the cliffhanger-y endings this season (usually having to do with the trial). There's sufficient drama and excitement without that gimmick. Just end the episode cleanly, I think.
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 7:58 AM on June 2, 2014


The problem with the book comparisons, is that sometimes knowing what changed is a spoiler.

Like the Bran at Craster's example. Knowing that the show at least generally bends the plot in the direction of the books, being told by a book reader that Bran going to Craster's was a change is a pretty good clue that Bran and Jon won't actually meet up, which changes the experience of watching the scene.

Even just the discussions of Sansa's changes in this thread have told me, a non-book reader, that she lives at least a few more episodes. Which can probably be inferred from what we've seen in the show, but dudes, it is this show.
posted by sparklemotion at 7:58 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Brandon Blatcher has the wisdom of a maester.

word.


Yes, what an impressive guess. ;)
posted by Drinky Die at 7:59 AM on June 2, 2014


Didn't both champions die?

The jury is still out on the Mountain; his wounds were ambiguous.

It seems safe to say that the Viper is out of the picture, though.
posted by tempestuoso at 7:59 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Discussing narrative choices for the show vs. narrative choices in the original story is an interesting discussion to have in some cases.

I agree with this, but I see where it could lead to implicit spoilers in some ways. When book readers make comments like "Sansa and Littlefinger's plotline is getting different from the books, but I guess D&D know things we don't about how that ends up etc." it implies that the books haven't finished their storylines to some degree so we're giving away that they don't get kicked out the moon door in the next episode or anything. I'm not sure the differences discussions have any interest to show watchers, because they almost always are interesting only in the sense that they give away stuff about what might be up in the future books.
posted by DynamiteToast at 7:59 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Though sometimes they're interesting for other reasons, like when D&D gave Oberyn a Lord Father. Questions like "what does this say about how HBO is turning the books into a show" are interesting to everyone, but questions like "what does this tell us about the future plot of The Winds of Winter" are probably to spoilery for some.
posted by DynamiteToast at 8:01 AM on June 2, 2014


[folks, this is not the place for a meta-discussion about spoiler policy. Metatalk is your friend.]
posted by restless_nomad at 8:02 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


I'm not sure the differences discussions have any interest to show watchers

But see, I'm a show watcher too.
posted by tempestuoso at 8:02 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Am I the only one who doesn't see why "the gods'' decision is clear in this case? Didn't both champions die?

Oh my sweet summer child.

Doesn't matter if both died, though I think the Mountain is still alive, if severely wounded. Tywin wants Tyrion dead at this point, so he has the guts and power to call it as he sees it.

He can back it up legally by noting that the Mountain stayed alive longer than my best friend Oberyn and clearly killed him. Hell, considering that the Mountain should have died right then and there, clearly the gods intervened to make the wicked Tyrion die. Praise be to the Gods for avenging the most nobelist and precious child ever born into the Seven Kingdoms!

It seems safe to say that the Viper is out of the picture, though.

No, there's still a bit of his jaw over in that corner.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:06 AM on June 2, 2014 [16 favorites]


Even just the discussions of Sansa's changes in this thread have told me, a non-book reader, that she lives at least a few more episodes.

Actually, no. As far I can remember - and I could be remembering wrongly - where she is at with the show is roughly the last place we saw Sansa, as a reader. Sansa is not a frequent POV character. I really have no clue what's happening with Sansa, which is actually why I find this all so interesting - because I'm hoping that the show-runners DO know what's happening with Sansa, and will tell me before he publishes the next book.
posted by corb at 8:08 AM on June 2, 2014


Tywin wants Tyrion dead at this point, so he has the guts and power to call it as he sees it.

ah, yeah, good call.
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 8:08 AM on June 2, 2014


Also Ned maybe cares about the distinction himself?
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 8:09 AM on June 2, 2014


Why does Tywin want Tyrion dead at this point?

Tywin could have spun the outcome of that trial anyway he wanted, and ended up with Tyrion on the Wall and Jaime at Casterly Rock (which is what I thought he wanted). Is it just spite now?
posted by sparklemotion at 8:11 AM on June 2, 2014


Jon was never going to be an heir to Winterfell. Ned had him lined up to take the black from the beginning. His name doesn't matter there, only his skills. Ned was also not the guy to have a plan C,D,or E. It probably never entered his mind that Winterfell would go to anyone but Robb or possibly Bran should something happen to Robb.
posted by cmfletcher at 8:17 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Why does Tywin want Tyrion dead at this point?

Because Tyrion fucked up Tywin's perfect plan to make Jamie his heir. He's so done with the little shit that he tried to raise properly, but has been nothing but an embarrassment to the Lannister House and name.

"If that's all it takes, why wouldn't Ned Stark have done that for Jon Snow?"

Ned had plenty of heirs, Roose doesn't.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:18 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


"If that's all it takes, why wouldn't Ned Stark have done that for Jon Snow?" What I responded was that it would have been an insult to Cat, but perhaps it is even more complicated than that."

Also, bastards in Westeros can only be legitimized by a writ from the king. This was probably a part of a payback for Roose's assistance in ... previous events.
posted by norm at 8:22 AM on June 2, 2014 [6 favorites]


From the Grantland recap:

Rather than finish off the Mountain, Oberyn was just getting warmed up, demanding much more than an improbable victory. Instead, like Tyrion in the garden all those years ago, Oberyn demanded logic and an answer. And we all know what happened next. Kung. Kung. Kung.
posted by nubs at 8:24 AM on June 2, 2014 [5 favorites]


Huh, why did we see Braavos in the opening titles but we never went there? Sudden appearances are usually to remind viewers " hey! This thing, this is a thing still."

Granted we haven't been back to Winterfell in a season and a half and it's still in the titles.
posted by The Whelk at 8:39 AM on June 2, 2014


I feel like someone needs to do a analysis of when and why locations appear in the title sequence. It's not unique every episode, but sometimes there are changes. Winterfell is always there (as it should be, as it lives on in my heart). Maybe Braavos is there because it's automata is so cool?

There's at least a listing of what is going on on wikia, but no real discussion of the whys.
posted by sparklemotion at 8:44 AM on June 2, 2014


I think Ramsay and Roose's crew just made it to Winterfell at the end of the episode.
posted by norm at 8:45 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Huh, why did we see Braavos in the opening titles but we never went there?

We always get Winterfell, King's Landing, and The Wall in the opening credits. I've wondered about this myself. Is it because these are the places we are supposed to identify with as viewers, or is it to make us think that important machinations are happening at that place regardless of whether scenes there actually appear?

In the Blackwater episode, I wondered why we didn't just get an endless panning of King's Landing, since there wasn't much set anywhere else.
posted by tempestuoso at 8:45 AM on June 2, 2014




I like how the Lords of the Vale where basically Super WASPs.

"Not from ...around here are yu?"

"My great-grandfather is from Braavos. But I guess we all ultimately come from somewhere?"

*Patrican sniff*

"WE'VE been here for thousands of years."
posted by The Whelk at 8:49 AM on June 2, 2014 [24 favorites]


I tend to think the locations featured in the opener are locations which are currently relevant to the story being told. That might mean they'll be shown in the episode, or not.

Even though we haven't seen Winterfell in a while, it's been true for a long time that a lot of the current plot seems to be revolving around (or moving towards) various plots and plans to see who gets to run the place, because whoever owns Winterfell owns the whole north, pretty much. Which, as Roose noted last night, is huge.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 8:52 AM on June 2, 2014


I always assumed we see Winterfell in every opening, even though we haven't visited in awhile, because Winterfell represents the Starks -- and we do check in with the Starks every episode.

Maybe Braavos was there to heighten the idea that Baelish is not really from Westeros -- he's playing a very different game than everyone else and thus doesn't quite fit on the continent.
posted by lilac girl at 8:53 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


By the way: Yohn Royce, the left-hand seated Lord of the Vale, is the father of Weymar Royce, the knight who is killed in the first scene in the first episode of season 1.
posted by norm at 8:57 AM on June 2, 2014 [12 favorites]


The series started in Winterfell and a lot of the plot lines are following various former residents of that castle so it makes sense to include it.
posted by octothorpe at 8:57 AM on June 2, 2014


also, Oberyn, c'mon - Item one line one of the Evil Overlord list: No Gloating.
posted by The Whelk at 9:02 AM on June 2, 2014 [7 favorites]


One thing I didn't like about this episode is the Stark girls being relatively physically close together, yet not meeting. It's odd, what with Sansa announcing her true identity and Arya's being revealed. People gossip, so it's easy to imagine the guard at the gate saying "Arya Stark? Do you know a Sansa Stark?"

Curious to see where the Hound and Arya go now. Wouldn't he ask if any of the other Lords of the Vale were interested in paying ransom for Arya?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:02 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Because Tyrion fucked up Tywin's perfect plan to make Jamie his heir.

Also I imagine Tywin was pretty annoyed by Oberyn's attempt to implicate him from the battlefield, by trying to force the Mountain to name names.

(Also HOLY SHIT non-bookreader here and I did not see that coming. DEVASTATED. Well done and thanks to the bookreaders for treading so carefully in the previous two threads.)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:03 AM on June 2, 2014 [9 favorites]


I like how the Lords of the Vale where basically Super WASPs.

'Cuz the Vale (mountains, valleys, fisheries on the coast) is basically New England on steroids.
posted by Iridic at 9:05 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


A+++ for Pedro Pascal

Yes, he totally stole this season.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:06 AM on June 2, 2014 [6 favorites]


I felt so sad for Ser Jorah. Danaerys will miss/need him down the line.

And I was saying out loud "Finish him off. FINISH HIM OFF!! FINISH HIM ... ah, shit."
posted by essexjan at 9:09 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


It's odd, what with Sansa announcing her true identity and Arya's being revealed. People gossip, so it's easy to imagine the guard at the gate saying "Arya Stark? Do you know a Sansa Stark?"

Ordinarily in this type of setting the guards would have taken them into custody, on a "what's this Arya Stark business" pretext, yeah? Sometimes Game of Thrones dudes are awfully chill.
posted by furiousthought at 9:09 AM on June 2, 2014


I tend to think the locations featured in the opener are locations which are currently relevant to the story being told. That might mean they'll be shown in the episode, or not.

Jorah's got to end up somewhere, hmm? His pardon was from Robert; maybe he'll ally himself with Stannis, now?
posted by Diablevert at 9:13 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Quite often when I'm watching GoT, I find myself repeating a line from a character in The Walking Dead, "Why can't we have just one good day?"

And I'm a book reader who knows what's coming in the show 90% of the time.

More than a few of the actors in this show have turned in such great performances that I now want to see their previous work and look ahead to them turning up in future roles: Pedro Pascal, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Lena Headey, and Rory McCann in particular. (I've already seen several of Dinklage's films.)

Ellaria's scream at the end made my hair stand on end. I'm like her: don't leave me alone in [that] world. Pouring out some Dornish red wine for the homie tonight. RIP.
posted by lord_wolf at 9:13 AM on June 2, 2014 [8 favorites]


I like how the Lords of the Vale where basically Super WASPs.

And I liked the backpedaling from "you're a grubby little boot-licking pimp" to "sorry about all that stuff earlier, old chap."

Littlefinger laughed it off but I imagine inside he's still seething.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:14 AM on June 2, 2014 [11 favorites]


t's odd, what with Sansa announcing her true identity and Arya's being revealed. People gossip, so it's easy to imagine the guard at the gate saying "Arya Stark? Do you know a Sansa Stark?"


Sansa revealed her identity to the two lords and one lady in the Eyrie; they promised to keep her secret. Even if they have some loose lips, there's no reason to think that a guard down at the Bloody Gate would have any idea whatsoever that the other Stark girl is in the neighborhood.

An enterprising gate guard, though, would think it worthwhile to hang onto both the Hound and a possible Stark. The Hound has a considerable bounty on his head, and if she is a Stark, it's bonus points.
posted by nubs at 9:15 AM on June 2, 2014 [5 favorites]


...there's no reason to think that a guard down at the Bloody Gate would have any idea whatsoever that the other Stark girl is in the neighborhood.

To clarify, there's guards at the gate and seemingly a Master of the Gate, someone in charge of greeting people. The Stark girl who mysteriously disappeared right after a king was murdered suddenly showing up in in the Vale would be cause for gossip.

Another being loudly announced at the Gate would get people talking. It seems incredibly farfetched to get them apart at this particular location.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:23 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Sansa, however, was only ever introduced as Littlefinger's bastard daughter to everyone but Lysa, Robyn, and the three last night. I don't think there's any reason to expect that the Master of the Gate knows she's around.

Arya being announced should cause some interest on his part (as should the Hound), but apparently the dude is just too chill.
posted by nubs at 9:26 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


"If that's all it takes, why wouldn't Ned Stark have done that for Jon Snow?"

Some other possible points:

* Ned Stark was really big on Honor, to the point of Honor = Stupid, and might have considered the idea offensive on the grounds that it would mean validating the dishonorable act of fathering a bastard.

* There are Certain Theories about his true parentage that might make it a very, very big deal to actually legitimize him as a Stark.
posted by Tomorrowful at 9:36 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Pedro has ideas about the funeral. He's a funny guy. I know a couple of people so devastated by ep8, they have sworn off the rest of the series. I missed pretty much the rest of the episode after the mountain was on his back, but the sounds...
posted by saucysault at 9:36 AM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


Let's send Wolverine back in time to change the timeline to this.
posted by almostmanda at 9:40 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Arya being announced should cause some interest on his part (as should the Hound), but apparently the dude is just too chill.

Do we know that Arya and the Hound actually turned around and left? I was totally charmed by Arya's laugh and missed what happened right when the scene ended.
posted by sparklemotion at 9:51 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


He's so done with the little shit that he tried to raise properly, but has been nothing but an embarrassment to the Lannister House and name

He tried to raise him properly? I haven't read the books but it seems like all we hear about him as a father to Tyrion is pretty awful, frankly. And the other Lannister kids are pretty damned embarrassing themselves. You got the king-killing sister-fucking one-handed knight, you got Cersei, who now that I think about it is probably the least embarrassing despite being mean and vindictive and of course the incest and having mothered Joffrey. And also Joffrey being hated by literally everyone. Oh, and they're broke and it seems like everyone knows it. The Lannisters are embarrassing all around. But Tywin can be embarrassed about whatever he likes, I suppose.


The jury is still out on the Mountain; his wounds were ambiguous.

Pretty sure we saw him get run through, right through the gut.
posted by Hoopo at 9:53 AM on June 2, 2014


the entire House Bolton line would die out with Roose if he didn't make Ramsey a true Bolton.

There are no other Bolton heirs *now* but Roose does have his fat Frey wife to give him babies.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:54 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Pretty sure we saw him get run through, right through the gut.

A gut wound is not instant death, though, and thus the Mountain survived the end of the duel, which means a guilty verdict from "the Gods."
posted by Jacqueline at 9:56 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


There are no other Bolton heirs *now* but Roose does have his fat Frey wife to give him babies.

I don't imagine Roose would have any qualms about liquidating spare heirs as convenience dictates.
posted by Iridic at 9:59 AM on June 2, 2014


Oberyn will have his revenge posthumously. He was able to coax out of The Mountain a public confession of the rape and murder of Dornish royalty.

Sadly, we still don't know if Tywin explicitly ordered Clegane to kill them. That would have really complicated things for him.
posted by homunculus at 10:02 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Lord, that was awful. The Mountain didn't just kill him, he killed the FUCK out of him.

Very sad, I liked Oberyn. But he really should have shut the fuck up while he was ahead.
posted by Serene Empress Dork at 10:03 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


which means a guilty verdict from "the Gods."

For sure, and even if "the Gods" did kill both champions, Tywin and Cersei are gonna Rules Lawyer this one. I just meant, I figure there's not much ambiguity about the Mountain's injuries: guy is in pain with a big hole in the belly and probably gonna die soon.
posted by Hoopo at 10:03 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I just meant, I figure there's not much ambiguity about the Mountain's injuries: guy is in pain with a big hole in the belly and probably gonna die soon.

Likely true; however, one champion is clearly dead and the other only nearly dead. Verdict rendered.
posted by nubs at 10:06 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Likely true; however, one champion is clearly dead and the other only nearly dead.

There's a big difference between mostly dead and all dead. Mostly dead is slightly alive. With all dead, well, with all dead there's usually only one thing you can do.
posted by tempestuoso at 10:12 AM on June 2, 2014 [26 favorites]


I imagine there won't be many volunteers for "trial-by-combat champion" after this one, at the very least
posted by Hoopo at 10:13 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I liked how Jaime pointed out that there wasn't a word for killing your cousin. Tyrion thought about it and responded in a sort of academic way because I think he was unaware of Jaime having killed his cellmate, whereas Jaime seemed to be introspective about it, maybe with some measure of guilt. It was a nice little bit of acting, I thought.
posted by tempestuoso at 10:16 AM on June 2, 2014 [49 favorites]


tempestuoso, great catch - I forgot about that other ill-fated cousin.
posted by mzurer at 10:26 AM on June 2, 2014 [7 favorites]


For me, Oberyn personifies what this entire series does. It not only alternately fills you with hope and despair, but it often does so through characters that you alternately despise and have affection for. Jaime Lannister is a great example of someone you spent a lot of time disliking, and then bam, bear rescue, and you pretty much like the guy from there on out. If The Hound dies now, I'll probably shed a tear. I spent a lot of time disliking Oberyn's character (although I'm not sure if he was supposed to be more sympathetic), and he turned into one of my favorite characters in the moments before his death.

I can almost imagine GRRM playing a game where he tries to see whether he can take the most dislikable person and make him/her tug on your heartstrings.
posted by SpacemanStix at 10:33 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


As my husband says, the motto for House Martin is "Life is Suffering."
posted by corb at 10:40 AM on June 2, 2014 [5 favorites]


take the most dislikable person and make him/her tug on your heartstrings

Theon!
posted by randomination at 10:41 AM on June 2, 2014 [8 favorites]


FWIW, Wolfram Alpha doesn't have nepoticide on their list of words ending in "icide," but they do have the inverse avunculicide.

No word for cousin-killing listed, but surely consobrinicide would do?
posted by Sys Rq at 10:42 AM on June 2, 2014


I'm wondering if he'll try the reverse at some point. Take a character you like and have them turn heel. Is he going to take Sansa or Arya and make them next season's Joffrey or Ramsey?
posted by cmfletcher at 10:46 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Jaime Lannister is a great example of someone you spent a lot of time disliking, and then bam, bear rescue, and you pretty much like the guy from there on out

I'm probably an outlier here, but I'm not fully sold on Jaime yet. Yeah he became more likeable than the guy we met that threw a child out of a window and speared Ned in the leg and all that, but I still don't like him, really. He's a spoiled rich kid who can be sorta nice sometimes but has shown himself to be a dick way too often to get the benefit of the doubt. And his asshole tendencies aren't as endearing as Bronn's, for example.
posted by Hoopo at 10:50 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


cmfletcher : " Is he going to take Sansa or Arya and make them next season's Joffrey or Ramsey?"

Isn't he already doing that with Arya? The last 2 things we heard from her are 1) the only thing that makes her happy is killing people and 2) laughing at her aunt's death
posted by I am the Walrus at 10:56 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I've never been sold on Jamie - yeah he has likable qualifies and seems like a fun guy half the time but he's also, a child-crippling murderer who cares about keeping up his incestuous affair at any cost. Guy's a DICK.

I think our turn heel will be Sansa - but in a way that makes us constantly defend her. She's going to have so many good reasons to start her own version of Arya's revenge list cause they like to play up the male power/female "power type" dynamic so much. It even gets kinda name checked when The Hound calls poisoning a woman's weapon and Reek, acting through subterfuge and lies is asked if he's a woman, etc
posted by The Whelk at 10:56 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


So I guess murdering your commanding officer when he's being a stupid twit is just an Ironborn thing, huh?
posted by Pope Guilty at 10:57 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


It seems safe to say that the Viper is out of the picture, though.

Nope. Nope, nope, nope. They're going to take him to a maester and he's going to get better and then Tywin's going to take him to a farm where he can run and play with other Dornishmen all day long.

Yup. Yup, that's what's going to happen.
posted by PlusDistance at 11:01 AM on June 2, 2014 [43 favorites]


So I guess murdering your commanding officer when he's being a stupid twit is just an Ironborn thing, huh?

Well Daario did the same thing kinda.
posted by DynamiteToast at 11:03 AM on June 2, 2014


I didn't think the laughter was about the dead aunt she'd never met, but more of a hopeless "we'll, we're really fucked now" sort of thing. She has no idea Sansa is there and nobody else in the Vale has much of a shot at verifying her identity as far as she knows.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:03 AM on June 2, 2014 [8 favorites]


Well Daario did the same thing kinda.

To his credit he followed that up by walking into the Bathing Queen tent instead of the "No Flayings Here We Promise" tent
posted by furiousthought at 11:12 AM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


I think our turn heel will be Sansa - but in a way that makes us constantly defend her.

And speaking of bathing queens Dany minus Jorah is the obvious setup for this, although, I don't think the show really has it in it to make a good character turn bad instead of just "awesome"...
posted by furiousthought at 11:15 AM on June 2, 2014


So I guess murdering your commanding officer when he's being a stupid twit is just an Ironborn thing, huh?

The parallel between that scene and the season 2 scene where Theon speechifies then is knocked unconscious was my favorite part of last night's episode.
posted by tofu_crouton at 11:16 AM on June 2, 2014 [7 favorites]


I didn't think the laughter was about the dead aunt she'd never met, but more of a hopeless "we'll, we're really fucked now"

I thought she was laughing because the Hound won't be getting a ransom. I don't think she really wanted to go to her crazy aunt's house.
posted by Hoopo at 11:18 AM on June 2, 2014 [23 favorites]


She was laughing because the situation is so fucked. They're poor, tired and yet again, the meeting with family, a decent meal and money were ripped away by someone on Arya's family dying.

Laughing hysterically is perfectly sane response to just such insanity. Arya's been under a lot of strain.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:22 AM on June 2, 2014 [25 favorites]


I thought she was laughing because the Hound won't be getting a ransom.

That was my interpretation as well. The Hound has dragged her across Westeros, only keeping her alive because he wants to get paid, and they just showed up for his payment to find that the person he wants the money from died 3 days ago. I think Arya is reacting to the inherent humor not in Lysa's death, but in The Hound being denied what he wanted by such a small margin.
posted by tocts at 11:23 AM on June 2, 2014 [14 favorites]


It's also a reprise of where they were just before the Red Wedding and all.
posted by furiousthought at 11:26 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Exactly, last time she and the hound were home free, they were just outside the twins at the red wedding.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:26 AM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Theon!

Still not sympathetic.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 11:26 AM on June 2, 2014


Aunt Lysa was probably also the last woman in the world willing to pay Aria's ransom as well. I can't think of anyone who at this point would want to claim and pay for her.
posted by tilde at 11:30 AM on June 2, 2014


I can't think of anyone who at this point would want to claim and pay for her.

Littlefinger would in a heartbeat. Two claims to the north?
posted by bfranklin at 11:31 AM on June 2, 2014 [7 favorites]


I'm wondering if he'll try the reverse at some point. Take a character you like and have them turn heel. Is he going to take Sansa or Arya and make them next season's Joffrey or Ramsey?

I'd argue that he did this with Theon. He's back on the redemptive upswing now (though I still don't forgive him) but that heel turn kind of hit me in the gut.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:32 AM on June 2, 2014


Re: Not wanting to believe that Oberyn was killed

I felt a lot like Homer in the Lisa/Vegetarian episode. That scene where his BBQ pig goes flying off the hill...

Oberyn's teeth are knocked out of his jaw
He's just missing some teeth! He's still good! He's still good!

Thumbs into eye sockets
He's just a little blind! He's still good! He's still good!

Blood curdling screams, skull crunching, and brain spillage

He's... gone. :(
posted by joeyjoejoejr at 11:34 AM on June 2, 2014 [21 favorites]


Littlefinger would in a heartbeat. Two claims to the north?

Within the context of what the characters know, I think The Hound could plausibly consider Robin Arryn as well. Granted, Lysa had a stronger tie to Arya as her aunt, but Robin is still her cousin and he's Lord of the Vale (even if underaged). So, even with Arya's reaction, The Hound has at least that one backup option to follow up with (and it doesn't even require traveling cross-country to get an answer!)
posted by tocts at 11:40 AM on June 2, 2014


Theon wasn't really a likable IMO. He took petty shots at Jon about not being a true Stark. Turned on Robb in the middle of the war. Did anyone really say poor Theon when he was given to Ramsey? My thought was, serves you right you little punk. I feel bad for him since he took Winterfell, but I wouldn't call him likable before that.
posted by cmfletcher at 11:41 AM on June 2, 2014


Maybe someday soon we'll get a Ygritte/Jon Snow reunion, and he can do that fun thing to her with his mouth again.

I fear their reunion is going to be a bit bloodier, considering how GRRM hungers for the taste of our tears. I hope she survives the battle at Castle Black, but I don't expect her to. I just hope she buts a few arrows in Thorne first.
posted by homunculus at 11:42 AM on June 2, 2014


She was laughing because the situation is so fucked. They're poor, tired and yet again, the meeting with family, a decent meal and money were ripped away by someone on Arya's family dying.

But they're not really "in this thing together". Arya wants none of this ransom business. As for family, she would have wanted to be with Robb and her mother, sure, but now that they're gone she's been sticking with the Hound because a) she is sort of a captive and b) it's convenient to have this big brute protecting her. Don't forget the Hound is on her list. She does not much like him, and I get the impression she is a bit headstrong and overconfident in some ways and probably doesn't fully realize how fucked she is without him at this point. I feel like if the Hound died she'd probably try and scratch off the names on her list before trying to find the remaining Starks.
posted by Hoopo at 11:42 AM on June 2, 2014


People gossip

The people in the Vale who know Sansa's identity would never gossip about this. Not only is Sansa obviously a valuable player/pawn, but she's also Tyrion's wife and wanted for murder (or accessory) in King's Landing. Allowing word of her whereabouts to trickle out would be huge.
posted by torticat at 11:44 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Jorah's got to end up somewhere, hmm? His pardon was from Robert; maybe he'll ally himself with Stannis, now?

I don't really see him siding against Daenerys though; I think his shame is stronger than his anger, and he still cares deeply for her. I wouldn't be surprised if he follows his father's example and joins the Night's Watch.
posted by homunculus at 11:53 AM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Theon wasn't really a likable IMO. He took petty shots at Jon about not being a true Stark...

Theon wasn't likeable, but neither was Robb really.

I do feel like his treatment at the hands of his father (and, to some extent, sister) made him pretty sympathetic (emphasis on pathetic, amirite?), but he obviously crossed the moral event horizon when he took Winterfell.

The beginnings of his capture by Ramsey absolutely felt like just desserts. Then it kept going.
posted by sparklemotion at 11:55 AM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


A good deal of energy was expended establishing that Jorah Mormont is Dany's personal Jiminy Cricket. He was her walking talking tether keeping her connected to her better angels when otherwise she might have devolved into a megalomaniacal rage monster.

Now that he's gone, is her descent into Targaryen madness going to accelerate?
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:02 PM on June 2, 2014 [6 favorites]


Now that he's gone, is her descent into Targaryen madness going to accelerate?

I hope something accelerates with that plotline.

I feel bad for Jorah, but he also had months in which to come clean. He could have done it right after he saved her, or in any of the ensuing period when they had their private chats. I think that even as crazypants as Dany is becoming, she would have respected his honesty and valued the insight into what her enemies were capable of.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:06 PM on June 2, 2014 [5 favorites]


The beginnings of [Theon's] capture by Ramsey absolutely felt like just desserts. Then it kept going.

It reminded me of George from Orson Welles' film version of The Magnificent Ambersons:
Something had happened. A thing which, years ago, had been the eagerest hope of many, many good citizens of the town, and now it had come at last; George Amberson Mainafer had got his comeuppance. He got it three times filled, and running over. But those who had so longed for it were not there to see it, and they never knew it. Those who were still living had forgotten all about it and all about him.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:07 PM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Theon has a lot to make up for: betrayal of Robb and taking of Winterfell, murder of two children, beheading of Ser Rodrick, general misogyny. Plus he was an arrogant ass to begin with.

Compare with Jaime: betrayal of Mad King, attempted murder of one child, successful murder of cousin, incest, general misogyny. He also was an arrogant ass to begin with.

Both seem to be on similar moral ground. Jamie lost a hand -- he "was that hand." Theon lost lots of things, his identity included ("he was that penis," I guess). But people still seem more predisposed to like Jaime's arc than Theon's. I genuinely wonder why that is.
posted by tempestuoso at 12:08 PM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Arya being announced should cause some interest on his part (as should the Hound), but apparently the dude is just too chill.

Do we know that Arya and the Hound actually turned around and left? I was totally charmed by Arya's laugh and missed what happened right when the scene ended.


The scene ended with her laughter, so we don't know what happened next. I wouldn't be surprised if the guards get offended and turn them away. If that happens, Sansa's going to flip when she finally hears that Arya was right there but is gone now.

I hope Arya and Sandor stay in the Riverlands for a bit, because that's where Nymeria was last seen back in the first season, and that's a reunion I would like to see happen.
posted by homunculus at 12:10 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't think Jorah will be gone for too long. Dany is going to realize that if it weren't for Jorah's spying, there would be no attempt on her life. This set in motion Drogo's intent to conquer Westeros, his death,the birth of the dragons, command of the remaining khalisar under her, the taking of Quarth, the freeing of Astapor, the freeing of Mereen, and her reign as queen of Mereen.

Grey Worm did just deliver a monologue about how all the rotten things in his life have lead him here and here is pretty sweet.
posted by cmfletcher at 12:11 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm wondering if he'll try the reverse at some point. Take a character you like and have them turn heel.

Sometimes I suspect that Daenarys is being set up to be the Big Bad of the whole series...
posted by Jacqueline at 12:12 PM on June 2, 2014 [10 favorites]


I don't think Jorah will be gone for too long. Dany is going to realize that if it weren't for Jorah's spying, there would be no attempt on her life. This set in motion Drogo's intent to conquer Westeros, his death,the birth of the dragons, command of the remaining khalisar under her, the taking of Quarth, the freeing of Astapor, the freeing of Mereen, and her reign as queen of Mereen.

I don't think Dany is that self-reflective but I suspect Jorah will continue to try to help her out behind the scenes somehow and get back in her good graces. Maybe after a monthlong bender in Braavos.

And yes, Jorah could have come clean much earlier. "I was sent to spy on Viserys, not you" etc.
posted by furiousthought at 12:18 PM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


One thing that is pretty clear to me is that in this world there really is no such thing as a Big Bad. Even the ones we think of as the most evil generally have some level of discernible not-evil motivation. Martin and the showrunners appear to agree that we don't get the easy character description of "that guy just hates all that is good and right and probably hates puppies too." Except maybe the Mountain. Fuck that guy.
posted by norm at 12:20 PM on June 2, 2014


I'm scared to ship too hard for Missandei and Grey Worm because I know that will be Martin's and D&D's cue to do something horrible to one or both of them.

tempestuoso, I think we tend to root for Jaime and are invested in how his arc plays out because we've seen flashes of nobility and kindness in him. All we saw out of pre-Reek Theon was the Westerosi equivalent of dude-bro b.s. The one time I felt bad for him was when he came to the realization that "[his] real father died in King's Landing."
posted by lord_wolf at 12:21 PM on June 2, 2014


But they're not really "in this thing together".

Eh, by default they are. Arya's said that she doesn't any option other than to stick with him. Sure, she doesn't like him much, but at least he isn't raping or abusing her, protects her and shares food. Look at how the approached the village where the old man was. They were working together.

That isn't permanent and I'm curious what happens next to those two, but they absolutely are in it together at this point.

The people in the Vale who know Sansa's identity would never gossip about this.

Sansa's wanted for Joffery's murder and being a Stark. They'd totally be talking about what to do with her and/or how to use her.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:24 PM on June 2, 2014


Even the ones we think of as the most evil generally have some level of discernible not-evil motivation.

I hated him less than most people, but I don't think any effort was made to give Joffrey non-evil motivations.
posted by dogwalker at 12:26 PM on June 2, 2014


Jamie also has emerged from his ordeals with his humanity, probably with a greater sense of human frailty and compassion. Whatever Theon has emerged as is certainly less human.
posted by firemouth at 12:27 PM on June 2, 2014


But people still seem more predisposed to like Jaime's arc than Theon's. I genuinely wonder why that is.

Well, there's "liking" the arc in terms of "it makes me like the character (as a person)", and there is "liking" it in terms of "the story was well told".

I think it's pretty easy to argue that Jaime's story has been pretty well told (in the show), whereas Theon's "punishment" seemed like a really brutal and unnecessary part of most of the episodes of Season 3. So I like Jaime's arc in that it wasn't recurring torture porn taking me away from other stories that I was enjoying watching.

As far as "this character is a good person now"? I think there is a lot of room for debate there, but I'd argue that some of the things on Jaime's "sin" list aren't really that bad. I mean, does anyone think that killing the Mad King was the wrong thing for Jaime to do in that moment (assuming that he has told the truth about what was going on)? And yes, he killed his cousin, but he was also trying to escape captivity -- lots of heros in lots of stories kill to do that. And the incest is creepy, but doesn't really hurt anyone. The attempted murder of Bran is the one truly evil thing that he's done all series, and I don't think anyone's letting him off the hook for that.
posted by sparklemotion at 12:29 PM on June 2, 2014


I hated him less than most people, but I don't think any effort was made to give Joffrey non-evil motivations.

He was power-mad and crazy, like Aerys. Same goes for Ramsay. Sadistic, cruel, nasty, but wants power and status. That's pretty classic motivation through recorded history.
posted by norm at 12:30 PM on June 2, 2014


We disagree on the definition of evil.
posted by dogwalker at 12:35 PM on June 2, 2014


Oberyn and Arya and Jon and everyone else, ok ...

But what do you think is going to happen to Tyrion? Will he die in the next few episodes? If not how do you think he'll survive?
posted by Riton at 12:35 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


attempted murder of Bran is the one truly evil thing that he's done all series

And the rape of Cersei which happened after we had seen a more human, humble side of him.
posted by valeries at 12:35 PM on June 2, 2014 [11 favorites]


We disagree on the definition of evil.

I know what you're saying, and I agree I'm conceptualizing a very limited definition of "evil". I'm saying compared to the Lord of the Rings (for example) there isn't a Bad Guy whose raison d'etre is to snuff out all good and nice things and replace them with ashes and orcs. In this world the methods may be cruel and evil but the motivations tend to be all too human.
posted by norm at 12:38 PM on June 2, 2014


Well, and then there's Ramsay.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:40 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


But what do you think is going to happen to Tyrion? Will he die in the next few episodes? If not how do you think he'll survive?

Pretty sure Wolverine is being sent back in time to save him.

Will Jaime, who's been sitting and talking with Tyerion in a his cell, really let him be executed? It's possible, but if he does I suspect it'll destroy him emotionally. If he does help Tyerion, then he loses Cersai, who will know it was him ('cause she knows him).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:42 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


We disagree on the definition of evil.

Well there is a difference between IRL evil and fictional evil. Obviously we give fictional characters a pass, or more of a pass, on a lot of stuff because no real people are hurt. Fictional bad guys are expendable.

Also (replying to a different question) I agree with others that we like Jaime better than Theon because Jaime has shown the ability to care deeply for other people, even when it requires self-sacrifice (see: Brienne). Theon has never shown one shred of interest in anyone but himself.

Also (as has been discussed ad nauseum), the rape of Cersei was a massive deviation from the show that is, it's true, very very problematic for the characterization/story arc of Jaime.
posted by torticat at 12:45 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


I don't know, Jaime's rape of Cersei made sense to me in terms of his character. Jaime's experiences on the road were not the entirety of his arc. He didn't suddenly become A Good Guy once he was done with it all. It was the beginning of a change in him, but it happened among other changes. The new, unsettled, slightly more human Jaime then had to return to King's Landing where he was once again living a privileged life while at the same time suddenly being kind of useless.

He could not go back to the life he knew (for reasons both related to his hand and not), but he couldn't leave it, either. He was unmoored.

When he forced himself on his dead sister in front of their dead son, it was of a piece with that. Jaime started coming unraveled on the road with Brienne. What we saw in that scene was him continuing to come unraveled, pretty much.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:53 PM on June 2, 2014


One thing that is pretty clear to me is that in this world there really is no such thing as a Big Bad.

I see you have forgotten the catch-phrase of the whole series. Winter Is Coming. I don't know about you, but those White Walkers certainly do not appear to be "the good guys", just out for a stroll down south on holiday. Something tells me that the machinations of the Lords and Ladies of Westeros are going to be kind of moot once that army of the undead and White Walkers riding on resurrected horses reaches the Wall. Hell, we haven't even had the show down between Jon Snow and the Wilding army, which is another big threat that the Westeros aristocracy seems to be gleefully oblivious to (hell, even some of the Night's Watch are acting like Cheif Wiggums or Officer Barbrady).

Then you've got the Lord of Light, who is obviously NOT exactly what Melisandre is talking him up as (I mean, seriously, how many people has she decided needed to be "cleansed by fire"?).

I really hope they start getting more into the whole "magic is returning to the world" thing too. I mean, Bran's whole quest is predicated on his warging powers being awakened after he became a paraplegic. Add to that the White Walkers ability to raise the dead as shock troops, which is something that is still barely being talked about by anyone except Sam and Jon Snow, and you've got a whole bunch of "this cannot mean anything good" for Westeros.
posted by daq at 12:55 PM on June 2, 2014 [7 favorites]


tempestuoso: Jaime's crimes were mostly (not all) committed because he loved unwisely or valued love (or order, in the case of killing the king) over "duty", while Theon's were mostly, on the surface, because of weakness or self interest (although you could argue he was seeking his father's love).

Mostly, though, I think Jaime is more sympathetic to many because he is handsomer and stronger. Our attraction to these qualities is so fundamental as to be almost impossible to overcome.
posted by amtho at 12:57 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


Behind the scenes: Game of Thrones Season 4: Episode #8 - Learning the Moves
posted by homunculus at 12:58 PM on June 2, 2014


Buds. (Twitter post with instagram link).
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 12:58 PM on June 2, 2014


They (Arya and The Hound) don't know Littlefinger is there, nor would The Hound think that he'd have an interest in her. Arya might.
posted by tilde at 12:59 PM on June 2, 2014


But what do you think is going to happen to Tyrion? Will he die in the next few episodes? If not how do you think he'll survive?

I hope he survives, because he's a fascinating character to follow, and I could see him doing a lot of good in what seems to be the higher-level plot of "OMG Westeros is fucked!", given the chance.

As for how?

A huge part of Jaime's arc this season has been about him not just becoming a less shitty human being (not not-shitty, but less-shitty), but also about him reflecting on his life choices, and how he feels he's been judged by society for having been an oathbreaker. He's pretty bitter about the fact that he broke an oath (and became the Kingslayer) for arguably good reasons, but Westeros more or less views him with contempt as a result.

So, we've seen him repeatedly state this season that he can't do something in Tyrion's aid because he's a member of the Kingsguard, and he took and oath. However, he's also gone from suspecting Tyrion, to later realizing how ridiculous it was for him to not have believed him. And he clearly cares for his brother, to the point where he willingly proposed to Tywin that he would forego his vows (previously an unthinkable act for him) and be the heir Tywin wants if he'd let Tyrion live.

He's also been shown to have relatively easy access to Tyrion's cell.

So, I'm thinking perhaps an unscheduled Lannister Brothers road trip? If they hurry, they can catch up with Brienne and Podrick!
posted by tocts at 1:00 PM on June 2, 2014 [10 favorites]


Will Jaime, who's been sitting and talking with Tyerion in a his cell, really let him be executed?

I think that Jamie is going to try to help Tyrion escape, as Tyrion asked him to before the trial. He still had some faith in the system and refused, but now he knows better. Jamie and Varys gave each other a knowing look at the beginning of the fight, which leads me to suspect that they're planing something together, and Varys's "I never forget a thing" line from the trial needs to be payed off. Whether or not they actually succeed, I have no idea.
posted by homunculus at 1:04 PM on June 2, 2014 [7 favorites]


When he forced himself on his dead sister in front of their dead son,

Ok, look, Jaime has a lot of problems - incestuous rapist right up there at the top of the list - but he's not a necrophiliac incestuous rapist. Unless you're referring to Cersei being emotionally or spiritually dead, somehow.
posted by nubs at 1:06 PM on June 2, 2014 [7 favorites]


I hated him less than most people, but I don't think any effort was made to give Joffrey non-evil motivations.

I think it was made pretty clear that Joffrey's upbringing screwed him up pretty badly. There were several scenes with Cersei telling him that he could do whatever he wanted because he was (going to be) the King. He didn't really have much of a chance to turn out to be a decent person, did he?

Also, Joffrey was one of the most forward-thinking characters on the show: he was in favor of modern ideas like a centralized army, he invented a modified crossbow, and he was one of the only ones concerned about what's happening on the other side of the word with Daenarys and her dragons. His insights could have been really valuable if he'd had better leadership skills.

So while Joffrey was an awful little shit, there was still some complexity to his character.
posted by Jacqueline at 1:06 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


Oops, no I just typed "dead" one too many times.

Unless it turns out the big twist of the whole show is that CERSEI HAS BEEN DEAD ALL ALONG OOOOOO
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 1:10 PM on June 2, 2014 [11 favorites]


Well, and then there's Ramsay

Ramsey and Joffrey are both classic sadists, people who get off on other people's pain. But even Ramsey has been shown to have additional motives --- he craves the respect and acknowledgment of his father, he's hung up on tradition and nobility. He wants power. His treatment of Theon demonstrates that on a personal, creepily individual level, but his ambitions extend further then just securing a roomy dungeon and sufficient experimental subjects.

Jaime I think is a fascinating character in a number of ways, but one of the most interesting is that he's pretty much the only character on the show who actively tries to avoid attaining power, even the power that is his birthright, his due. He gives up his claim to Castly Rock; he shows no interest in his children, or to have children he can claim; he seems content to play the role of fun uncle. He wants to be a knight, and not a lord. The only accomplishments he does show pride in are all to do with his individual prowess as a warrior, the only people he seems to admire those who truly adhere to the chivalric code of honor and loyalty and faithfulness. Of course, what prevents him from being a good knight is precisely his bonds to and among his powerful family; almost every terrible thing he does is to protect one of them, in some manner or other --- he committed the ultimate betrayal of his feudal vows, killing his king, in order to protect his father, he pushed Bran out the window for Cersei. He has proven time and again that he is wiling to do anything, even despicable and dishonourable things, to protect them. But on his own behalf? Nothing. In many ways, his rejection of that paternal, dynastic role in all it's forms is tantamount to rejecting being a man at all in Westerosi society, a profound abnegation of the self. That's what I think makes him an interesting character.

Of course, even under that reading, it doesn't excuse all his crimes. Not the cousin, not the rape of Cersei (though I am more willing than others to credit the idea that the latter scene was a fuck up on the showrunner's part, something they intended as grey coming across pure black). He is selfish and arrogant and an entitled rich kid; almost every criticism Tywin makes of him in their first scene together rings true. But he's a genuinely singular figure in the world of the show.
posted by Diablevert at 1:11 PM on June 2, 2014 [21 favorites]


I see you have forgotten the catch-phrase of the whole series. Winter Is Coming. I don't know about you, but those White Walkers certainly do not appear to be "the good guys", just out for a stroll down south on holiday.

On the contrary, I happen to believe that even those White Walkers have something resembling a Good Reason for them relating to the Children of the Forest.
posted by norm at 1:24 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


I'm certainly hope Tyrion lives, but if he dies at least I can stop listening to that terrible accent.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 1:26 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't see the Hound & Arya "in it together" lasting very long unless there's something for the Hound in it. As far as Arya is concerned I totally get it, she benefits hugely from having this massive warrior protecting her and attempting to reunite her with whatever family she had left. The Hound has been doing this for the money and if they're turned away at the gate, what place has he left to drag her to? If he hadn't burned (heh) his bridges he might have taken her back to King's Landing hoping the Lannisters would give something for Arya. But who else would pay a ransom right now?
posted by bjrn at 1:26 PM on June 2, 2014


I don't know about you, but those White Walkers certainly do not appear to be "the good guys", just out for a stroll down south on holiday.

Why not, they just got a new baby, probably feeling cooped up on the Upper North Side, what to stretch their legs a bit.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:28 PM on June 2, 2014 [15 favorites]


I can stop listening to that terrible accent

Saw the new X-Men movie over the weekend and was taken aback for a minute when Peter Dinklage's character didn't have that accent. I forgot what he actually sounds like. I enjoy Tyrion's accent, though.
posted by GrapeApiary at 1:37 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I've never been sold on Jamie - yeah he has likable qualifies and seems like a fun guy half the time but he's also, a child-crippling murderer who cares about keeping up his incestuous affair at any cost. Guy's a DICK.

Absolutely, but he's a dick that you wish wasn't a dick, maybe more than you wish he got his comeuppance. That's the part that GRRM is good at. He makes you think twice about whether or not you could pull the switch on someone, even if you were certain just a short while ago that it would be no problem.

He makes you wonder regularly if compassion would stay your hand.
posted by SpacemanStix at 1:45 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Many that live deserve death. And some that die deserve life. Can you give it to them?
posted by Justinian at 1:51 PM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Adherents of the Lord of Light excepted.
posted by Justinian at 1:52 PM on June 2, 2014 [6 favorites]


The White Walkers are the good guys! Those assholes down south are into every flavor of homicide and screwing each other over for even the tiniest self benefit. You know what they do up in the north? Take care of the babies the jackasses down south keep leaving for dead in the woods!

They thought things would be better back when those assholes down south put up a giant fence. You think they'd mind their own business from then on out. Nope, they dress up the worst lot of 'em in black and send them over the fence to harass the neighbors up north every chance they get. How many times do you have to come knocking with swords drawn before enough is enough?
posted by cmfletcher at 1:52 PM on June 2, 2014 [38 favorites]


maybe more than you wish he got his comeuppance

I'll cop to enjoying that he lost his hand, that smug bastard. He thought he was so smooth, too
posted by Hoopo at 1:56 PM on June 2, 2014


I don't see the Hound & Arya "in it together" lasting very long unless there's something for the Hound in it.

I don't see the Hound living much longer if he doesn't get that festering wound in his neck cleaned up.
posted by octothorpe at 2:37 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


It's too bad that Arya and the Hound got turned away. As much as I'd like to see some of the Starks together again, it would be interesting to see Sansa and the Hound meet up again.
posted by hooray at 2:38 PM on June 2, 2014


This episode brought to you by Orgish.com, goddamn.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:49 PM on June 2, 2014


2) laughing at her aunt's death

I think i took this differently from you. i took it as like, a laughter of madness. Like "we just traveled all this way, and now she's fucking dead? HAHAHAHAHA NOTHING EVER WORKS OUT EVERYTHING IS A FUCKING JOKE HAHAHAH".

I laughed, years ago, at my own apartment being on fire after a day of coming home from being denied unemployment.

I think it's a similar kind of thing.
posted by emptythought at 3:02 PM on June 2, 2014 [36 favorites]


I really feel like they CGI'd Sansa to look like Catelyn for a couple of frames there, the resemblance seemed pretty...stark.

YEEEEEEAAAAAAAHHHHHHH!
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:11 PM on June 2, 2014 [22 favorites]


It's too bad that Arya and the Hound got turned away.

Did this certainly happen? No forthcoming offer of a bed to sleep in or a warm meal to someone who is a relative?

I'm going to be incredulous if the two sisters don't meet up.
posted by SpacemanStix at 3:17 PM on June 2, 2014


eh, they do seem to like playing with the idea of the Stark kids just barely missing each other. It wouldn't surprise me if they got turned back, in that sense anyway.
posted by Hoopo at 3:27 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


On the question of Ned legitimizing Jon Snow, Did Eddard ever refer to Jon as his son, or his bastard? I know that in the dialogue with Catelyn, he referred to Jon as "my blood" but I don't think he himself ever call Jon his son.
posted by Megafly at 3:49 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


the resemblance seemed pretty...stark.

A+ work.
posted by davidjmcgee at 3:53 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


People gossip, so it's easy to imagine the guard at the gate saying "Arya Stark? Do you know a Sansa Stark?"

I thought the fact that it was actually Sansa was known only to Littlefinger, Crazypants, and Casper?
posted by turbid dahlia at 3:59 PM on June 2, 2014


The show left out one of my favorite scenes containing one of my favorite lines: when Oberyn unexpectedly announces to the public at the trial that he will fight on Tyrion's behalf, and everyone goes nuts. I was so looking forward to that scene! There's no possibility of it being in a later episode, so there's no harm in quoting it now:
"Have you taken leave of your wits?" his father said.

"No, I've found them. I demand trial by battle!"

His sweet sister could not have been more pleased. "He has that right, my lords," she reminded the judges. "Let the gods judge. Ser Gregor Clegane will stand for Joffrey. He returned to the city the night before last, to put his sword at my service."

Lord Tywin's face was so dark that for half a heartbeat Tyrion wondered if he'd drunk some poisoned wine as well. He slammed his fist down on the table, too angry to speak. It was Mace Tyrell who turned to Tyrion and asked the question. "Do you have a champion to defend your innocence?"

"He does, my lord." Prince Oberyn of Dorne rose to his feet. "The dwarf has quite convinced me."

The uproar was deafening.
posted by painquale at 4:35 PM on June 2, 2014 [9 favorites]


It's too bad that Arya and the Hound got turned away.

Did this certainly happen? No forthcoming offer of a bed to sleep in or a warm meal to someone who is a relative?


I don't think we know if they got turned away or not. The last thing we saw was the guards at the Bloody Gate looking dismayed at Arya's laughter.

I also don't think we know how close Brienne and Pod are to the Eryie. Even if they miss Arya and the Hound, they might still encounter Sansa and Littlefinger, and I assume Sansa would recognize Pod.
posted by homunculus at 6:05 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


I didn't think the laughter was about the dead aunt she'd never met, but more of a hopeless "we'll, we're really fucked now"

I took it as a version of Hicks from Aliens. "We're in some real pretty shit now!"

And speaking of...

The White Walkers are the good guys! Those assholes down south are into every flavor of homicide and screwing each other over for even the tiniest self benefit. You know what they do up in the north? Take care of the babies the jackasses down south keep leaving for dead in the woods!

"You know, Eddard, I don't know which species is worse. You don't see them fucking each other over for a goddamn peerage. "
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:17 PM on June 2, 2014 [9 favorites]


Doesn't matter if both died, though I think the Mountain is still alive, if severely wounded. Tywin wants Tyrion dead at this point, so he has the guts and power to call it as he sees it.

I don't think that's it. I would guess that in real (old-timey) life as in fantasy, there would have to be a rule that the last person alive is the winner, even if both end up dead, because that's got to happen from time to time. And I think if you crush your opponent's skull to pieces before passing out, that's got to count as living a bit longer.
posted by uosuaq at 6:32 PM on June 2, 2014


I took Arya's laughter to be at The Hound's expense, since he'd gone through so much bullshit hoping to get some bounty.
posted by turbid dahlia at 6:52 PM on June 2, 2014 [5 favorites]


I kind of feel like Tyrion was about to start laughing too before the credits rolled.
posted by Drinky Die at 6:57 PM on June 2, 2014


I half expected him to sit down and start going "Kung, kung, kung".
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:00 PM on June 2, 2014 [7 favorites]


I also don't think we know how close Brienne and Pod are to the Eryie. Even if they miss Arya and the Hound, they might still encounter Sansa and Littlefinger, and I assume Sansa would recognize Pod.

Party at the Eyrie!!!
posted by chainsofreedom at 7:02 PM on June 2, 2014


Woot woot, woot woot, woot whOAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaa......
posted by turbid dahlia at 7:09 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


BADASS SANSA FOR PRESIDENT

Sorry, I had to say it. Whoa.
posted by Iosephus at 7:13 PM on June 2, 2014


I thought we were calling her Dark Sansa.
posted by Jacqueline at 7:15 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


This show's whole world is pretty much pure evil. I think the White Walkers really may be the good guys.
posted by shivohum at 7:18 PM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


His sweet sister

One of the best things about the show is that it isn't so... leal to Martin's writing tics that we have to hear "sweet sister" a million times per episode.
posted by ersatz at 7:38 PM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


Hot Topic Sansa.
posted by Justinian at 7:40 PM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


GRRM
posted by Jacqueline at 7:47 PM on June 2, 2014 [9 favorites]


Without having read any comments here yet and having just watched the episode, I just want to say...

I wish I could unsee that.
posted by double bubble at 7:59 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


(I don't plan on watching IT on my second viewing, so you're not alone double bubble.)
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 8:03 PM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Yeah I just rewatched the episode with my husband (who hadn't seen it yet) and I put my hands over my eyes as soon as teeth started flying.
posted by Jacqueline at 8:06 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Here's a thing to understand, because I literally don't know whether it will be important or not, but if it is, it will be VERY important:

Roose Bolton and Ramsay Bolton are very different characters.

Ramsay is the hight of sadistic evil. Like, to the point where it's gone beyond gratuitous to being tiresome.

Roose, on the other hand, is the poster child in Westeros for pragmatism.

Roose has no conscience to speak of, and will do whatever is best for Roose. The Red Wedding was a good deal - political upheaval in his favor in exchange for few to no deaths for his bannermen. House rights have no pragmatic value. Frey offers him his wife's weight in gold, fine, he'll choose the fattest one. Being Roose, he probably sees past her weight and finds something to love about her, because he's Roose, who sees nothing but pragmatism and family. I bet an hour with Roose and his wife would be quite cozy and nice, to be honest.

If Ramsay were the opposite of Ramsay, and presented Roose with a peaceful way to get what he wanted, Roose would be just as happy with him.

Roose doesn't want bloodshed. Roose just doesn't care how Roose gets what he wants.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:16 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Roose Bolton and Ramsay Bolton are very different characters.

Roose seems pretty sadistic to me. I believe he and Robb Stark had a conversation about the merits of flaying people, with Robb reminding him that Ned had outlawed it. And Roose seemed pretty smug when he showed Catelyn that he was wearing armor at the Red Wedding, just so he could be the one to see her face when she saw that she'd been betrayed.

Sadism is a family tradition in House Bolton, it seems to me, like the Lannisters and their debts.
posted by tempestuoso at 8:28 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


Roose is a sadist. Ramsay is unhinged.
posted by coriolisdave at 8:29 PM on June 2, 2014


Also, as a book reader I have to say the small plot divergences are actually quite savvy and effective. I knew what horror was coming and yet I desperately held out hope Oberyn would prevail. Desperately.
posted by double bubble at 8:30 PM on June 2, 2014 [6 favorites]


I've read most of the comments here, but not quite all, so forgive me if I repeat what others might have said.

I really enjoyed this episode, it seems to me that the theme was kind of a (grisly and grim) meditation on Love.

Unrequited Love: Missendei and Grey Worm;
Betrayed Love: Dany and Jorah;
Cruel Bromance Love: The Hound and Arya;
Actual Filial Love: Tyrion and Jaime;
Parental Love: Those Twisted Boltons!;
Shallow Love Used as a Weapon: Sansa and Littlefinger;
More Filial Love: Oberyn and Ellia;
And Shattered Love: Oberyn and his paramour.
posted by CincyBlues at 8:32 PM on June 2, 2014 [14 favorites]


Radar Love: Golden Earring.
posted by Justinian at 8:35 PM on June 2, 2014 [8 favorites]


By the way: Yohn Royce, the left-hand seated Lord of the Vale, is the father of Weymar Royce, the knight who is killed in the first scene in the first episode of season 1.

Here's the scene: Night's Watchmans and the White Walkers

Waymar Royce
posted by homunculus at 8:36 PM on June 2, 2014


Tainted love: Loras and Renly
posted by coriolisdave at 8:40 PM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Love bug: Kung
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:42 PM on June 2, 2014 [5 favorites]


Very interesting point, CincyBlues. See also:

Tyrion and Pillbug (love of all creatures, great and small)
Gilly and Little Sam (maternal love)
Big Sam and Gilly (unrequited love, or paternal love in a way)

I think that isn't unique to this episode, though. There is heart buried in just about every episode. Sometimes you have to remove some skin to get to it, and sometimes it belongs to a horse and you need to eat it.
posted by tempestuoso at 8:44 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Is he going to take Sansa or Arya and make them next season's Joffrey or Ramsey?"

As far as I'm concerned, Dany took the heel turn at the end of Season 1.
posted by spaltavian at 8:49 PM on June 2, 2014


Tainted love: Loras and Renly

aw I made myself sad again.
posted by The Whelk at 9:03 PM on June 2, 2014




Homonculus, thanks for that video. Haven't seen that in a long time. I completely forgot the White Walkers are capable of running. I had thought they were slow zombies.
posted by GrapeApiary at 9:07 PM on June 2, 2014


I don't feel like I got any deep meaning out of cousin Orson and his beetles. What did I miss?
I've watched this twice now because I cheated and watched it once before my girlfriend got home. I haven't read this far in the books, but I feel certain he was speaking to Jaime, who is, after all, famous for killing lots of people, among them notably a king. And now he's more or less killing Tyrion by deciding not to help him. Tyrion doesn't have the Lannister murder-gene. He doesn't understand why his siblings and his father delight in slaughter. And he's frankly disgusting with all of them by now.

One of my favorite things about this series if its moral realism. It's not like in the LoTR movies where a million orcs get massacred and nobody questions the necessity of it. I mean, Gondor and the Rohirim have to be talked into war, but ultimately they go kill orcs for "noble" reasons, because orcs are baddies who should be killed. But Tyrion inhabits this world much like our own world where stupid nobles lead everyone to war for petty and selfish reasons, and he doesn't like it. We're also faced with the idea, frequently delivered via The Hound dialog, that the people doing the killing aren't really doing it for their purported noble purposes, but rather because they like killing people.

Tyrion obviously puts Jaime in this latter category. And Cirsei, too.
posted by deathpanels at 9:10 PM on June 2, 2014 [5 favorites]


Well. As Magnitude would say, "Pop, pop!" Ewww...
posted by Going To Maine at 9:11 PM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


Cousin Orson simply discovered the Westeros equivalent of popping bubble wrap.
posted by ceribus peribus at 9:17 PM on June 2, 2014 [2 favorites]


For those of you who love watching reactions yt

the best part about this was how I got caught up in the two women at the bar reacting and having BIG MOMENTS together.

Lke in a Meta-sense, like they where people actually ...watching the fight? does that make sense?

Also they where super cute together.
posted by The Whelk at 9:22 PM on June 2, 2014


I enjoyed how devastated white t-shirt guy looked at the end. I feel those feels, white t-shirt guy.
posted by Jacqueline at 9:24 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


Also cause it how they were dressed it looked like Kitty Pryde and Jubilee where watching Game Of Thrones in a bar.
posted by The Whelk at 9:28 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


Man that looks even more fun than what I do, which is to watch Game of Thrones while drinking but not in a bar!
posted by Justinian at 9:28 PM on June 2, 2014 [1 favorite]


That bar is like three blocks from my apartment. I know where I'll be on Sundays from now on!
posted by deathpanels at 9:36 PM on June 2, 2014 [4 favorites]


(Also HOLY SHIT non-bookreader here and I did not see that coming. DEVASTATED. Well done and thanks to the bookreaders for treading so carefully in the previous two threads.)
I have never encountered such a wonderfully spoiler-free bunch as I seem to find in Game of Thrones book-readers online--it's like they've sworn an oath, and the most they'll ever say is something cryptic like "oh, just wait--it'll get interesting...". It's great to watch an episode like The Rains of Castamere or Sunday's The Mountain and the Viper and not know what's coming--thanks readers!
posted by blueberry at 9:42 PM on June 2, 2014 [11 favorites]


I feel certain he was speaking to Jaime, who is, after all, famous for killing lots of people, among them notably a king. And now he's more or less killing Tyrion by deciding not to help him. Tyrion doesn't have the Lannister murder-gene. He doesn't understand why his siblings and his father delight in slaughter. And he's frankly disgusting with all of them by now.

I think you're correct about Tyrion's dislike of killing. But I don't think you're correct about Jamie, nor about their relationship. In the backstory, as far as I recall being only a show watcher, Jamie's famous for one murder, killing the king. The rest of his rep is built on tournament victories --- showoff stuff. We've seen him kill a bunch of people --- but I don't think we've seen anything to particularly suggest that he enjoys killing, gets off on it. I mean the whole beast-in-man-when-sword-in-hand is definitely a theme of the entire series, but while there's plenty of people in Westeros who admit to taking great pleasure in killing people, we haven't seen that from him. He kills people when it's necessary for his ends, but most commonly he does so a) to protect someone else and b) with an expression of rue for the necessity of doing so. Bran, the cousin he murdered, even his fight with Brianne on the bridge. He refuses to kill Ned when he can't defend himself, and offers to fight Rob mano a mano rather than having their two armies fight.

I don't think we've seen much about Tywin delighting in slaughter for its own sake, either --- he's as cold-blooded a fish as they come. He kills to attain and maintain power, and he's rather off 20 people at dinner than 20,000 on a battlefield if possible. Cersei you could make more of a case for --- but I wouldn't say having a particular grudge against Tyrion necessarily means she delghts in slaughter for its own sake. Ayra, Ayra everyone's little favorite, she delights in slaughter. Cersei just agrees with Conan about what is best in life.
posted by Diablevert at 9:48 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


Has anybody linked the Game of Thrones feasts on Mefi yet? Because seriously, she cooked freaking snake for the Dorne feast.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:55 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]


It's not like in the LoTR movies where a million orcs get massacred and nobody questions the necessity of it.

Would Aragorn Participate In Orc Genocide? George R.R. Martin Asks The Tough Questions
posted by homunculus at 10:02 PM on June 2, 2014


I have never encountered such a wonderfully spoiler-free bunch as I seem to find in Game of Thrones book-readers online--it's like they've sworn an oath, and the most they'll ever say is something cryptic like "oh, just wait--it'll get interesting...".

Since it hasn't been linked here yet: MeTa.

I happen to agree with you, blueberry.
posted by homunculus at 10:25 PM on June 2, 2014 [3 favorites]




Fuuuuck, what an ending. GRRM you magnificent bastard. I totally thought the twist would be Oberyn throwing the spear at Tywin after accusing him or ordering his family's murder. Really interesting to see what happens to the supposed Lannister/Dorne alliance now that Gregor confessed to the murders/Oberyn is dead/Cersei's daughter is in Dorne.

Also, Jaime's expressions through the fight were great - shit he's got no chance, oh shit he's got a chance, holy shit he's going to win.... oh shit.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:42 AM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


I think our turn heel will be Sansa - but in a way that makes us constantly defend her.

I hope not. Show Sansa is a bit more likeable than Book Sansa (at least, to me) but still not /that/ much more likeable - there are a lot of people who hate Sansa already such that her turning evil wouldn't be as big a deal because they feel like she was already evil/awful for being such an idiot over Joffrey in the first place and running to Cersei and all. No tension.
posted by corb at 3:38 AM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


shit he's got no chance, oh shit he's got a chance, holy shit he's going to win.... oh shit.

LOVED Jaime's reactions. In addition to what you say, there was just sheer appreciation of a great fight, coming from a used-to-be master. (While of course both Oberyn's and Clegane's techniques were totally different from Jaime's.)
posted by torticat at 4:33 AM on June 3, 2014


Oberyn was by fun the most fun to watch of any fighter we've seen so far.
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:34 AM on June 3, 2014 [8 favorites]


The hardest moment for me to hold back spoilers all season was "Meryn Trant is alive and your master is dead because Trant had armor and a big fucking sword."

I mean, that's not exactly what happened between Oberyn and The Mountain, but it was a good reminder of how "small and quick" usually fares in those situations.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:20 AM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


I mean, that's not exactly what happened between Oberyn and The Mountain, but ...

"Might be I could take him. Dance around him until he was so tired of hacking at me that he couldn't lift his sword. Get him off his feet somehow. When they're flat on their backs it don't matter how tall they are. Even so, it's chancy. One misstep and I'm dead."
posted by ceribus peribus at 5:59 AM on June 3, 2014 [13 favorites]


Remember when Cersei used to call Sansa "Little Dove" ? And now she's at the sky castle with Robin Arryn (whose house sigil is a white falcon) and Lord Baelish (who last season declared his own house sigil, a mockingbird).

Sansa's dress is black, with feathered accents. I know we're all calling this the dress a Maleficent dress, but if that movie hadn't come out this week, I think we'd be making a connection to the other black feather dress: the Mockingjay dress that Katniss wears in Catching Fire. In the Hunger Games series, the mockingjay is a crossbreed between mockingbirds and (fictional) jabberjays, which are a species that can memorize and repeat back human conversation. Jabberjays were initially domesticated by the fascist government to spy on the people. Once the people figure out what's happening, they start deliberately telling lies around the jabberjays. The government shuts the program down and releases the jabberjays into the wild, who breed with mockingbirds. The resulting mockingjays retain the ability to parrot conversation, but being undomesticated, their use as a tool is limited.

I think Sansa's dress is primarily her telling Lord Baelish she's on his side. He also dresses in head-to-toe black. But I think it's also a pretty direct reference. If Sansa is a mockingjay, she's half mockingbird (Lord Baelish), but half someone else. Someone who uses "little birds" to spy on people for the government.

I think this tells us a lot about how Sansa is going to play the game.
posted by almostmanda at 6:04 AM on June 3, 2014 [17 favorites]


The Petyr / Sansa relationship is potentially quite interesting. I think that because of her resemblance to her mother, and especially with the power play she made this past episode, Sansa has a great deal of power over Petyr who in turn has a great deal of power over Westeros. Add in the fact that the Vale is one of the most secure positions at the moment, and Sansa has basically gone from being pretty close to a Lanister orchestrated death to the cusp of real power. I do really like what the show has done with her.
posted by codacorolla at 6:10 AM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


It's not like in the LoTR movies where a million orcs get massacred and nobody questions the necessity of it. I mean, Gondor and the Rohirim have to be talked into war, but ultimately they go kill orcs for "noble" reasons, because orcs are baddies who should be killed.

Orcs have been attacking Gondor and the Rohirim - the problem is that they are attacking because they are mind-controlled by a Baad Overlord. When we get a glimpse of orcs chatting even they'd rather move elsewhere and go pillage.
posted by ersatz at 6:13 AM on June 3, 2014


It's an interesting question who is playing whom between Sansa and Littlefinger. I have no doubt Littlefinger calculated that Sansa was smart enough to see her position in the game and help him when he needed it, and that this be would all the more the case if he didn't try to influence her beforehand. I think he thinks he is playing her by getting her to think she is in control. She actually does think she is in control, based on her sense that he wants her as a substitute for her dead mother.
posted by shivohum at 6:14 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Has anybody linked the Game of Thrones feasts on Mefi yet? Because seriously, she cooked freaking snake for the Dorne feast.

Not quite as over-the-top, but I have a group that does GoT watching together and do a themed signature cocktail with each viewing. I AskedMeFi for ideas on it for last season.

For this episode I made the Red Viper, which was tequila and grapefruit juice over ice served in a salt/cayenne pepper-rimmed glass. It was actually quite tasty, and preferable over my other idea, The Mountain, which would have been each person receiving a pint of gin, neat.
posted by mcstayinskool at 6:36 AM on June 3, 2014 [23 favorites]


Ayra, Ayra everyone's little favorite, she delights in slaughter.

She delights in revenge. Enjoying killing people who did horrible things to you and your family is not the same as enjoying slaughter for its own sake.
posted by spaltavian at 7:09 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Does anyone else think that Tyrion might kill Jaime to remain the only grown living Lannister and be spared by Tywin? Or is this just crazy?
posted by Riton at 7:11 AM on June 3, 2014


If he wouldn't kill Joffrey, he wouldn't kill Jaime.
posted by spaltavian at 7:14 AM on June 3, 2014 [7 favorites]


So, Sansa- aside from her claim on the North (assuming her little brothers continue to be presumed dead), and aside from any power she and Littlefinger might consolidate in the Eyrie...

If Tywin and Cersei and Jamie and Tyrion all died, would she be next in line to Casterly Rock, being now technically Sansa Lannister?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:26 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm scared to ship too hard for Missandei and Grey Worm because I know that will be Martin's and D&D's cue to do something horrible to one or both of them.

Exactly. When the bar scene opened with mirth and merriment I said "aww fuck no, they're all gonna die..."
posted by Theta States at 7:32 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


...There is heart buried in just about every episode. Sometimes you have to remove some skin to get to it...
posted by tempestuoso at 8:44 PM on June 2

My Bolton Detector is tipping to the red... watch out for this so-called "tempestuoso"
posted by Golem XIV at 7:33 AM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


She delights in revenge. Enjoying killing people who did horrible things to you and your family is not the same as enjoying slaughter for its own sake.

She just had a conversation with the Hound where she said that the defeat of her enemies was unsatisfying to her unless she could personally be there to at least witness, and preferably bring about, the exact moment of their death. Her and the Hound agreed that watching the light go out of someone's eyes was the best feeling in the world.

Arya has her list, and perhaps her sense of honor will be enough to confine her to it. But it seems clear that her whole identity, her whole sense of herself and her place in the world, requires that she never quite manages to cross off the last name.
posted by Diablevert at 7:35 AM on June 3, 2014


But it seems clear that her whole identity, her whole sense of herself and her place in the world, requires that she never quite manages to cross off the last name.

There will always be names to add.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:36 AM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


If Tywin and Cersei and Jamie and Tyrion all died, would she be next in line to Casterly Rock, being now technically Sansa Lannister?

No, it would go to Kevan, Tywin's brother, or his son Lancel if Kevan is dead/doesn't want to deal with it. After that to Tywin's sister Genna's sons, the one who is married to a Frey.

The only other possibility would be if Sansa and Tyrion had a son. She herself has no claim to the Rock.
posted by elizardbits at 7:47 AM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


She delights in revenge. Enjoying killing people who did horrible things to you and your family is not the same as enjoying slaughter for its own sake.

She just had a conversation with the Hound where she said that the defeat of her enemies was unsatisfying to her unless she could personally be there to at least witness, and preferably bring about, the exact moment of their death.


Yes, of the people who personally wronged her. That is, as I said, delight in revenge, not slaughter for it's own sake.

But it seems clear that her whole identity, her whole sense of herself and her place in the world, requires that she never quite manages to cross off the last name.

They only people on the list are people who did horrible things to her and her family. Her whole identity is consumed with revenge, not violence per se. Maybe they are setting that up to happen eventually, but it's not there now.
posted by spaltavian at 7:47 AM on June 3, 2014


And the part about watching the light go out of someone's eyes being the best feeling in the world?
posted by Diablevert at 7:52 AM on June 3, 2014


Was what the Hound said, not Ayra. She didn't agree or disagree with that in the scene as I recall. Also, I believe what she said was that she wanted to see the moment Joffery knew it was over. Again, that feeling was tied, for her at least, very specifically to seeing someone she wanted revenge on, not just anyone.

Have you ever taken revenge on someone? Feels pretty damn good. I'm not sure why you're deprecating that as a motivation.
posted by spaltavian at 7:57 AM on June 3, 2014


For those of you who love watching reactions yt

I love the guy with the glasses and the beard, sitting next to the lady in the blue sweater. He's pretty stoic throughout, and then once the Mountain has grabbed hold of the Viper, he just starts shaking his head, and looks down at the floor just before the sickening final crunch.
posted by nubs at 8:12 AM on June 3, 2014


Have you ever taken revenge on someone? Feels pretty damn good. I'm not sure why you're deprecating that as a motivation.

Arya is motivated by revenge, true. But she delights in slaughter also. It's not enough for her to see her enemies defeated and humiliated. She wants to kill them, herself. Her ambition is to be a great killer --- to become excellent at it, as a skill.

Here's the scene. I mean, everybody will have their own interpretation. But I think her lines are pretty crystal clear here. "Lots of things make me happy...killing Podge, killing Rog." "That's your stupid pride talking, that's why you'll never be a great killer. I'd have killed Joffrey with a chicken bone if I had to."

I don't want to suck the air out of the thread, so I'll leave it there. But I just think it's naive to think that Arya's not going to have her soul corroded by making revenge her sole purpose in life. She worships the god of death.
posted by Diablevert at 8:13 AM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


I was in the middle of eating meat lasagna during the last scene of the show. I did not finish it.
posted by desjardins at 8:14 AM on June 3, 2014 [19 favorites]


The fan reaction video was AWESOME, by the way. I was cackling out loud by the end, half with schadenfreude, half with recognition of myself in their faces. "Look, you can pinpoint the exact moment their hearts break."
posted by norm at 8:18 AM on June 3, 2014


"Look, you can pinpoint the exact moment their hearts break."

I think you can also pinpoint the moment when they think -"holy shit, Martin's going to let something good happen after all!"
posted by nubs at 8:21 AM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


Yes! They cheer when Oberyn gets him with the spear. Yay! It's gonna work out!

uh oh.
posted by norm at 8:24 AM on June 3, 2014


I was in the middle of eating meat lasagna during the last scene of the show. I did not finish it.

You could have an ongoing theme where people who know the endings serve inappropriate food items to people who don't know the endings.
posted by goethean at 8:25 AM on June 3, 2014 [12 favorites]


Considering the content of that episode, it's difficult to imagine wanting to eat during any of it.

Moletown: floorboard-dripping slaughter!
Moat Cailin: the guy with the axe in his head is the LUCKY one!
The Red Viper scene is remarkable in that it was grosser than either of those other two scenes by a good order of magnitude.
posted by norm at 8:29 AM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


Eh, I've reached the point where I can comfortably eat dinner during Hannibal, so GoT doesn't even come close.
posted by elizardbits at 8:33 AM on June 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


( my standard tactic for getting people into Hannibal was to invite them over to watch a few episodes while I made them fussy, meat-based snacks.)
posted by The Whelk at 8:35 AM on June 3, 2014 [9 favorites]


We eat an ice cream sandwich during GoT, so eh.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:46 AM on June 3, 2014


Lately I've been watching American Horror Story during dinner to toughen me up.
posted by desjardins at 8:49 AM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


The only other possibility would be if Sansa and Tyrion had a son.

Actually - legitimacy is assumed, barring evidence. Sansa is on the run, and no one knows the secrets of their bedchamber except Tyrion - or maybe, given Shae's testimony in court, thinks that Sansa started sleeping with Tyrion once they started conspiring to murder Joffrey. I'm never quite sure about the passing of time in Westeros, but this means that if Littlefinger were to decide having her is more important than marrying her or marrying her off, if he were to impregnate her, Littlefinger's son would inherit Casterly Rock.
posted by corb at 8:56 AM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


"We're in some real pretty shit now!"

"Hudson, sir. He's Hicks."
posted by Rat Spatula at 8:58 AM on June 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


Lately I've been watching American Horror Story during dinner to toughen me up.

Oh holy shit I am filled with such a mixture of excitement and dread for the FanFare threads when AHS starts back up.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 9:02 AM on June 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


if Littlefinger were to decide having her is more important than marrying her or marrying her off, if he were to impregnate her, Littlefinger's son would inherit Casterly Rock.

Except there's no value in Casterly. As Master of Coin, Littlefinger would have known that the gold mines were no longer producing anything. And if you can kill off all the Lannisters such that you could secure Casterly Rock, then you may as well just take the Iron Throne.
posted by bfranklin at 9:25 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Littlefinger's actions have basically destroyed three of the great houses already (Stark, Arryn and Baratheon) and have a fourth (Lannister) eating itself from the inside. And post-red-wedding the Tullys aren't looking great either. Tyrell is ascendant, and it's tough to know what Martell is about to do, but the Iron Islands are a mess and they can't produce an heir anymore.

Basically, I think Littlefinger knows better than most that there's more power behind the throne than on it, but I think deep down he also wants recognition, respect and credit more than anything, so he might be fool enough to attempt the throne.

How would he actually get there, though, is my question. It's not like he's going to raise an army.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:12 AM on June 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


I can fix this!
posted by Uncle Ira at 10:29 AM on June 3, 2014 [15 favorites]


Oh Uncle Ira that just isn't nice! Not nice at all.
posted by Fence at 10:44 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Hey, kind of a random question, maybe book readers here can jump in: What's Danaerys' claw necklace made from? Do her dragons shed claws?
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 10:50 AM on June 3, 2014


Sansa's dress is black, with feathered accents.

Details of Sansa’s new dress from The Mountain and the Viper
posted by homunculus at 10:51 AM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


For this episode I made the Red Viper, which was tequila and grapefruit juice over ice served in a salt/cayenne pepper-rimmed glass. It was actually quite tasty

until they tilt the glass up for the last sip and you SMASH THE GLASS IN THEIR FACES
posted by Hoopo at 10:54 AM on June 3, 2014 [22 favorites]


Hey, kind of a random question, maybe book readers here can jump in: What's Danaerys' claw necklace made from? Do her dragons shed claws?

It looks like it's just made of metal to me. I don't think it's a thing specifically in the books.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:00 AM on June 3, 2014


People have been saying that Sansa looked like Cat in that dress. But the vibes I got from her were pure Margery.
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:01 AM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


A good deal of energy was expended establishing that Jorah Mormont is Dany's personal Jiminy Cricket. He was her walking talking tether keeping her connected to her better angels when otherwise she might have devolved into a megalomaniacal rage monster.

Now that he's gone, is her descent into Targaryen madness going to accelerate?


This seems like a well-grounded possibility. Daenerys' eyes had a sort of glassy, dilated look of profound anger during that scene, with close-up shots of her flaring nostrils. She felt that betrayal. Whether or not she will devolve so completely is uncertain, but it seems likely that her sense of fairness and justice will be tarnished somehow.
posted by clockzero at 11:01 AM on June 3, 2014


Hey, kind of a random question, maybe book readers here can jump in: What's Danaerys' claw necklace made from? Do her dragons shed claws? It looks like it's just made of metal to me. I don't think it's a thing specifically in the books. But we can assume she paid the iron price for it.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:01 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


[this next comment doesn't contain spoilers, but it does contain details from the book that I don't think are in the series -- I'm not sure if it's against the guidelines, please delete if so]

On the other hand, the Mad King was quite promising in his youth and only became a full-on paranoiac (and being deeply betrayed as Daenerys was, I'm thinking, is not exactly going to inhibit any latent paranoiac tendencies) later in his life.
posted by clockzero at 11:08 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


For this episode I made the Red Viper, which was tequila and grapefruit juice over ice served in a salt/cayenne pepper-rimmed glass.

You know what'd be good in it? Two squashed grapes.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 11:16 AM on June 3, 2014 [16 favorites]


And any spare loose teeth you have lying around.
posted by davidjmcgee at 11:19 AM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


For this episode I made the Red Viper, which was tequila and grapefruit juice over ice served in a salt/cayenne pepper-rimmed glass.

I would like please a list (or a link to a list) of all of these cocktails, with proportions. I have been good this year I swear it.
posted by KathrynT at 11:19 AM on June 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


I know this goes wayyyyy back, but did they ever indicate what happened to Benjen? And what about Rickon? They haven't updated Rickon and the girl he's traveling/escaping with (sorry, forgot her name)?
posted by foxhat10 at 11:23 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Nope and nope.
posted by davidjmcgee at 11:26 AM on June 3, 2014


Osha (a.k.a. Tonks) and no, they haven't updated us on any of them. The Boars, Gore and Swords podcast has also been hoping for a single episode devoted to everything that Blackfish Tully has been through since pulling the Irish Goodbye right before the red wedding went down.
posted by Navelgazer at 11:30 AM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


The Stannis Baratheon: a tin cup half full of rye.
posted by Iridic at 11:37 AM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


For this episode I made the Red Viper, which was tequila and grapefruit juice over ice served in a salt/cayenne pepper-rimmed glass.

You forgot the crushed melon!
posted by freecellwizard at 11:42 AM on June 3, 2014 [21 favorites]


Now that he's gone, is her descent into Targaryen madness going to accelerate?

Possibly, but now she has Barristan Selmy by her side and he remembers the Mad King. If she's willing to listen to him, he might be able to help steer her away from sharing her father's fate, or at least slow it down.
posted by homunculus at 11:54 AM on June 3, 2014


Any chance King Tommen will make a kingly call to save The Imp? He seems to genuinely like his uncle.

Perhaps Tyrion will demonstrate some kind of usefulness to the kingdom that would lead to his being spared?

I'm grasping at straws here, people! Myrcella for The Imp?
posted by vitabellosi at 11:57 AM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


I know this goes wayyyyy back, but did they ever indicate what happened to Benjen?

No, he simply disappeared, but one of the rangers who was with him became the wight who attacked Jon Snow and Jeor Mormont.

Here's a nice little speculative fan-fiction film about what might have happened to him: A Tale of Benjen Stark.
posted by homunculus at 12:10 PM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Any chance King Tommen will make a kingly call to save The Imp? He seems to genuinely like his uncle.

I don't think Tommen actually has any power at this point because he hasn't come of age yet. Even if that's not the case, I don't think he has the fortitude to stand up to both his mother and his grandfather directly. But perhaps he could send Ser Pounce to help Tyrion escape from prison.
posted by homunculus at 12:13 PM on June 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


I'm not completely convinced Tyrion's dad wants him dead. And there might be some kingly learning moment in letting Tommen, with guidance, stretch his kingly muscles, with proper oversight.
posted by vitabellosi at 12:17 PM on June 3, 2014


I'd like to nominate Elio Garcia at Westeros.org as the poster child for a ridiculous subset of book fanatics for whom the books are sacred writ and the TV show ideally nothing but a power point presentation of scenes and dialogue from the novels. He hates many of the best stuff in the show and I always feel secondhand embarrassment when I read his reviews. I don't know why I can't stop.
posted by Justinian at 12:22 PM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Ser Pounce and Tyrion: On The Run
posted by desjardins at 12:23 PM on June 3, 2014 [7 favorites]


I'm not completely convinced Tyrion's dad wants him dead.

That moment when he pronounced him guilty and therefore to be executed was pretty convincing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:29 PM on June 3, 2014 [10 favorites]


I occasionally look at the westeros.org forums after each episode airs. I've been pretty canny about avoiding spoilers and all - it's just that there seems to be something about that site which encourages people to make absolute trainwreck statements and it's entertaining in an unintentional way.

After they changed the words "Only Cat" to "Your sister," there was a glorious freakout - twenty-two pages of comments in the span of about twelve hours. At least one person spent several paragraphs decrying the change because - and I'm paraphrasing here but not by much - they believed George RR Martin is one of the greatest writers of the modern age; they went on to say that if Shakespeare were alive today, he'd be writing Game of Thrones (???).

Anyway, I guess what I'm saying is I feel you on the thrill of cringe-reading westeros.org.
posted by FAMOUS MONSTER at 12:30 PM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]




they believed George RR Martin is one of the greatest writers of the modern age; they went on to say that if Shakespeare were alive today, he'd be writing Game of Thrones

Yes and Milton would be one of the top contributors to buzzfeed
posted by Riton at 1:14 PM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


Yes and Milton would be one of the top contributors to buzzfeed

Twoscore Kittens that resemble Rebel Angels cast down from Heav'n: Click upon th' Link, we entreat you
posted by prize bull octorok at 1:21 PM on June 3, 2014 [30 favorites]


Besides, Shakespeare would clearly be writing YA fantasies or vampire romance since that's where the big money is.
posted by Justinian at 1:22 PM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


"Hudson, sir. He's Hicks."

Bah, I know that perfectly well and typed Hicks anyway for some reason.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:40 PM on June 3, 2014




George RR Martin's editor hints at eighth Game of Thrones book

*Arya_laughing_hysterically.gif*
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:52 PM on June 3, 2014 [41 favorites]


This is exactly why I don't give a damn about GoT spoilers. At this point, it doesn't like Martin will finish the series any time soon. Even with seven books, it doesn't seem like he'll finish before 2020 or so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:12 PM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Is Vegas taking bets yet on whether he will die before he finishes the series?
posted by norm at 2:15 PM on June 3, 2014


Unfortunately he's a walking heart disease machine... Which is a shame because I've been reading his books since I was 13. I'll be crushed if he doesn't finish them in time, especially because he refuses to let anyone else finish the series (I can't say I blame him, Sanderson did an acceptable job finishing Wheel of Time, but it didn't feel the same).
posted by Strass at 2:24 PM on June 3, 2014



George RR Martin's editor hints at eighth Game of Thrones book


This...does not surprise me. There are so many things to bring back together and deal with that I didn't think he'd be able to do it in two books.

But somebody needs to forbid the man from going to any more cons and taking on any more side projects and just make him write.
posted by nubs at 2:26 PM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


I don't think Tommen actually has any power at this point because he hasn't come of age yet. Even if that's not the case, I don't think he has the fortitude to stand up to both his mother and his grandfather directly

I think the second one is more likely than the first. I got the impression with Joffrey that the "handlers" try to make the young king feel like they're powerless, but they're actually not. I sort of felt like Joffrey was testing his boundaries from time to time and found few or none. Tommen's around the same age Joffrey was when he became king I think.
posted by Hoopo at 2:51 PM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Ok, I don't know shit about the books, so can I list my major hopes for the next episode?

- Jaime busting Tyrion out of jail of course, or at least deciding to

- at least one (1) instance of Margaery throwing shade

- Ser Gregor Clegane playing Mr. Orange to Cersei's Mr. Blond, Tywin's Nice Guy Eddie, and Jamie's Mr. White in at least three separate scenes during the episode

- Jorah also getting three separate scenes to get increasingly shitfaced across Essos

- Commander Dickass, I mean Alliser Thorne, doing a homage to "Homer Jumps The Gorge" off the top of The Wall

- Jon Snow & company doing the Leeroy Jenkins charge out the gates of Castle Black, because all the fight choreographer's hours went to the (very good, way better than the baseline for the show) Oberyn vs. Mountain fight

- a very brief scene of Arya and the Hound, in exactly the same spot where we left them, staring blankly and shrugging
posted by furiousthought at 3:01 PM on June 3, 2014 [10 favorites]


It's ok guys!

I eat through these episodes and I think the trick is to have a somewhat lossy MP4 of the show and watch it at a small size so that the gory stuff isn't that graphic.
posted by jessamyn at 3:02 PM on June 3, 2014 [7 favorites]


I just came to ask if we can have a spinoff series that's a Prince Oberon prequel, pretty please? Pretty pretty please?

As a book reader, I knew his fate, but I was so desperately hoping since the show and book have diverged, they'd change that. Oh, I knew they wouldn't, it wouldn't be the same show if they let someone live because the audience likes them. But I still hoped.


People have been saying that Sansa looked like Cat in that dress. But the vibes I got from her were pure Margery.

Excellent catch. The only people that showed her any kindness were the Tyrells, and they were full of wiles. Some they helped Sansa understand.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 3:20 PM on June 3, 2014 [5 favorites]


Tommen's around the same age Joffrey was when he became king I think.

Here's the GOT wiki entry on him: Tommen Baratheon

(The GOT wiki is for the TV show, not the books, and it's safe for non-readers. Book spoilers are verboten, though each entry has a section at the bottom of the page comparing it to the books but without spoilers about future events.)
posted by homunculus at 3:26 PM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


I would 100% get behind a Prince Oberon prequel. Is that something we can start a kickstarter for? Let's see everything he did during his youthful traveling days! We know he spent five years in Essos.
posted by Arbac at 3:29 PM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


- Commander Dickass, I mean Alliser Thorne, doing a homage to "Homer Jumps The Gorge" off the top of The Wall

Please let Ygritte give him a little push.
posted by homunculus at 3:31 PM on June 3, 2014




Unfortunately he's a walking heart disease machine...

Maybe he'll come back as a wight to finish them.
posted by homunculus at 4:07 PM on June 3, 2014


He predicted four books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he said five books. I said Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Then he went to six. I said… Well, you get it. Finally, we were on the same page. Seven Books for Seven Kingdoms. Good. Only, as I recently learned while editing The World of Ice and Fire (another awesome thing you must buy when it comes out!), there are really technically eight kingdoms,

So his editor is encouraging him to write more books? *facepalms* I thought the last couple of books could have done with more vigorous editing, but apparently book spoilers won't be an issue soon.
posted by ersatz at 4:19 PM on June 3, 2014


they went on to say that if Shakespeare were alive today, he'd be writing Game of Thrones

He'd be competing for market share with Jonathan Swift's series about Hannibal Lecter.
posted by localroger at 4:45 PM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


Tyrion and Jamie laughing at brain damaged-cousin was troubling. Everyone is Westeros is pretty awful and are not good people, but that stung particularly. I get that, you know, what else can you even do in that situation, but it is still the thing that sticks out at me the most of the whole episode, even more than melon-head.
posted by curious nu at 5:03 PM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


Oh, and someone over on mefightclub suggested a Desert Bus-like game, except it's Jorah and he's just riding his horse for eight hours to who knows where.
posted by curious nu at 5:05 PM on June 3, 2014 [6 favorites]


Well I been thru the desert on a horse with no name
It felt good to be out of Meereen
In the desert
You can remember your name
Cos there ain't no dragon for to make fire rain

AH GARGH AAAAH OW OW OW OW
OW OW OW.. AAAARGH GAH... etc
posted by coriolisdave at 5:24 PM on June 3, 2014 [11 favorites]


The Game of Thrones screencap recap is up. [safe for dinner eating]
posted by desjardins at 5:52 PM on June 3, 2014 [8 favorites]


:D "We should be good unless he starts monologuing..."

"TIME FOR MY EPIC MONOLOGUE YOU ASSHOLES"
posted by joseph conrad is fully awesome at 6:08 PM on June 3, 2014 [9 favorites]


- Jorah also getting three separate scenes to get increasingly shitfaced across Essos

Ehh, that guy makes me uneasy. I can understand why Queen D just exiled him, and nobody advised her otherwise, the guy was fundamental to get their circus to where it has gotten now... But I fear Jorah dude will turn out to be a petty vindictive asshole once he's far enough away and with a chance to weight his possibilities for the near future. He could help some of the many greedy cases over in Qarth who I'm sure would love to get even with the Mother, he could bring some of the nastiest khals for an attempted sacking of Mereen, he could even just for spite's sake help the new masters at Yunkai to try the same... I'd have had him killed quickly and secrety, instead, is what I'm saying.
posted by Iosephus at 6:21 PM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


What, you wouldn't trust the dude who took a shady deal to get a pardon for slaving when freeing slaves is like your whole deal?
posted by jason_steakums at 6:30 PM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


What if someone (Jaime, probably, or maybe Varys) threatened to expose Tommen's true parentage unless Tyrion's life was spared? Tommen's only claim to the the throne is his alleged Baratheon genes. This idea presumes that Cersei, as the complainant, could withdraw her suit or that Tywin, as the chief judge, could decide that Prince Oberon and the Mountain died at the same time for legal purposes (US law has provisions for this when, for example, two heirs are in a car crash and one dies shortly after the other). This threat could correspond to Stannis Baratheon's arrival at King's Landing.
posted by carmicha at 6:38 PM on June 3, 2014


"What if someone (Jaime, probably, or maybe Varys) threatened to expose Tommen's true parentage"

Isn't the fact of Tommen's true parentage basically out to everyone, but everyone chooses not to believe it?

I mean, maybe Jaime himself coming out and saying that he sleeps with his sister might convince some people, but it's all pretty hearsay.
posted by sparklemotion at 6:51 PM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


Yeah, Stannis made sure everyone knew about it, but most don't believe it and the rest don't care. I don't think anything short of Cersei herself confessing would really make an impact.
posted by homunculus at 7:09 PM on June 3, 2014


I think Martin made an error in killing Oberyn Martell off and the TV producers should of kept him around.
posted by humanfont at 7:12 PM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]




I think Martin made an error in killing Oberyn Martell off and the TV producers should of kept him around.

In the sense of they shouldn't have had him fight the Mountain, or that he should have won? Who else could have fought for Tyrion? And if nobody should have fought, or Oberyn should have won, that would lose a pretty big dramatic moment.
posted by Lemurrhea at 7:41 PM on June 3, 2014


I think Martin made an error in killing Oberyn Martell off and the TV producers should of kept him around.

Why? I mean, he was a fun character and all, but I can see lots more narrative openings with him being dead and Tyrion on the run (like: how is Dorne going to react to this? They "have" Myrcella, after all), than with Oberyn alive and Tyrion free but still moping about King's Landing being bitter about everyone.
posted by sparklemotion at 7:42 PM on June 3, 2014


What, you wouldn't trust the dude who took a shady deal to get a pardon for slaving when freeing slaves is like your whole deal?

Jorah the ex-slaver, was Danearys' best friend and kept her from being totally cruel.

But her black and white morality doesn't allow for the recognization that our friends aren't perfect or that they can change. She's going to start making major mistakes now and Jorah isn't going to be around to give good advice.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:51 PM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


FWIW, I definitely thought Sansa and Littlefinger had sex, at her invitation ('I know what you want'). Later, she comes down the staircase in her bird of prey suit, smirking, and—for the first time ever—sashaying. She's transformed, and more sophisticated in every sense of the word. 'Shall we go?' she says. There's a we, there. I thought having their consummation be unexpected, her idea, and off-camera was surprising but sort of clever.

And say what you will about Littlefinger, but I'd bet he's programmed in multiple techniques.

I know this is creepy and most likely incorrect but I kinda want it to be true.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 8:07 PM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


Later, she comes down the staircase in her bird of prey suit, smirking, and—for the first time ever—sashaying.

With a giant "do not enter" sign hanging from her neck.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:09 PM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


The show would have made it clear if Sansa and LF did have sex. Sansa's new attitude is due to knowing she is that she has some agency of her own.

LF wants her, but not just for sex. He wants a companion to scheme with. That's why he's been pretty honest with her.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:15 PM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


Oh, I'm sure you're right; the show would've made it clear. But I thought it would've been clever if it had been ambiguous, with confirmation in a later episode.
posted by EXISTENZ IS PAUSED at 8:20 PM on June 3, 2014


> And say what you will about Littlefinger, but I'd bet he's programmed in multiple techniques.

There will be NO further mentions of Petyr Baelish in connection with Lieutenant Commander Data.

My smutty, black little heart will have a smutty, black little heart attack.
posted by Ambrosia Voyeur at 8:25 PM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


Having heard Masie Williams give an interview, I love reading all the exclamation points in that Q&A. I love her enthusiasm for acting and getting to the heart of character.
posted by absalom at 8:26 PM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


LF wants her, but not just for sex. He wants a companion to scheme with. That's why he's been pretty honest with her.

I think it's also that everything he does is so secret by necessity, he needs somebody to gloat to, to see how clever he really is.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:31 PM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


MeFi.
posted by homunculus at 9:10 PM on June 3, 2014


Random thought:

One of the neuroanatomical justifications for there being a real (reality itself being hard to define) trangender state of gender-being is that there is a divergence in those who state that they are transgender, with male bodies, and those who do not state such a thing in that transgender male-bodied people, if you chop their genitals off, do not experience phantom penis syndrome. Ramsay Snow speculates on it, but it's a documented phenomenon in real life.

Think about Grey Worm in this context.
posted by curuinor at 9:46 PM on June 3, 2014 [2 favorites]


Diablevert: "Jaime I think is a fascinating character in a number of ways, but one of the most interesting is that he's pretty much the only character on the show who actively tries to avoid attaining power, even the power that is his birthright, his due. He gives up his claim to Castly Rock; he shows no interest in his children, or to have children he can claim; he seems content to play the role of fun uncle. He wants to be a knight, and not a lord. The only accomplishments he does show pride in are all to do with his individual prowess as a warrior, the only people he seems to admire those who truly adhere to the chivalric code of honor and loyalty and faithfulness. Of course, what prevents him from being a good knight is precisely his bonds to and among his powerful family; almost every terrible thing he does is to protect one of them, in some manner or other --- he committed the ultimate betrayal of his feudal vows, killing his king, in order to protect his father, he pushed Bran out the window for Cersei. He has proven time and again that he is wiling to do anything, even despicable and dishonourable things, to protect them. But on his own behalf? Nothing."

Part of this, I think, is because he's spent his entire adult life in the Kingsguard, where protecting people was his only job and there was no real way to attain power in his own right. I don't think there's any version of Jaime that would have become ambitious in the way Littlefinger or Tywin is, but he was only 15 or so when he got shipped away from his family and told repeatedly that the only things he needed to care about for the rest of his life were protecting the royal family at the cost of his own life and upholding the chivalric code. Plus, one of the first major incidents in his time in the Kingsguard was killing the Mad King, after which it was pretty clear that he might as well dedicate himself to his job because no one would trust the Kingslayer with real power ever again. Jaime is too guardedly polished to wear his formative experiences like that on his sleeve, but they're there in a lot of his attitudes about being a knight versus a lord.
posted by Copronymus at 10:16 PM on June 3, 2014 [1 favorite]


And was it just me or did his accent go full Christian Bale Batman for a scene there when he was alone with Sansa?

It wasn't just you. I don't recall Little Finger speaking quite like this. It's campy and out of place, tone, and rhythm. Or did I just miss it before? That seems impossible since now it stands out like a cheap monster truck radio commercial.
posted by juiceCake at 10:30 PM on June 3, 2014 [3 favorites]


- Compare with Jaime: betrayal of Mad King, attempted murder of one child, successful murder of cousin, incest, general misogyny.

Well, the first of those is not quite like the others.

- [Jaime] committed the ultimate betrayal of his feudal vows, killing his king, in order to protect his father

And also to stop the Mad King from giving the order to burn the city and all its inhabitants to death with wildfire. I suppose Jaime could have been lying to Brienne in that bath scene when he describes the king-slaying in detail, with the King saying "Burn them all" over and over as he dies, but it sure plays like an honest moment. Kinda makes it harder to consider that particular murder as one of the black marks on Jaime's character, and makes it easier to see why some folks might "seem more predisposed to like Jaime's arc than Theon's," even though they've both done really shitting things.
posted by mediareport at 10:55 PM on June 3, 2014 [4 favorites]


Sophie Turner's only just 18, so I doubt we'd see a sex scene with her even if they had.

I mean, Jesus, you'd certainly hope not.
posted by Pope Guilty at 11:45 PM on June 3, 2014




Hell, we haven't even had the show down between Jon Snow and the Wilding army, which is another big threat that the Westeros aristocracy seems to be gleefully oblivious to (hell, even some of the Night's Watch are acting like Cheif Wiggums or Officer Barbrady).

The only one who took it seriously was Stannis at the end of the last season when Melisandre said they needed to go to the Wall, but it hasn't been mentioned since and that's been annoying me all season. I think that might be what Melisandre and Selyse were talking about when they were discussing whether or not to bring Shireen with them to wherever it is they're going. At first I assumed Stannis got the Iron Bank loan so he could take advantage of Joffrey's death and wage more war against the Lannisters, but he would also need the money to transport his men to the Wall if that's still his intention.

If he does go to Castle Black, then I guess the question is whether or not he'll get there before the Wildlings decimate it. We're always being reminded that 100 Night's Watchmen can't hold off 100,000 Wildlings and giants, so their only chance would be to get reinforcements, like Stannis and his 4000 men. In any other story I'd assume he'd come just in the nick of time to save the day, like the Rohirrim at Helm's Deep in The Two Towers, but with GOT it's just as likely that they'll get there after the Wildlings have sacked the place.
posted by homunculus at 1:55 AM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


The book version of the Mountain vs Viper fight scene, illustrated. No spoilers for anything, but interesting to see the slightly different dialogue. It's less gory than the TV version.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:15 AM on June 4, 2014 [4 favorites]


TV version also had a much better fighting arena layout, from a Health & Safety point of view...
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:17 AM on June 4, 2014 [6 favorites]


Plus, one of the first major incidents in his time in the Kingsguard was killing the Mad King, after which it was pretty clear that he might as well dedicate himself to his job because no one would trust the Kingslayer with real power ever again

This is something I'm confused about, actually. In some respects the show treats joining the kings guard as this sacred vow, no backsies. At other times it's suggested that if he really wanted to, Jamie and/or Tywin could get Jamie released from this vow and he would again be free to inherit.

If it really is no backsies, then I don't understand at all why Tywin would want Jamie, his heir, in the kingsguard in the first place --- leaving Castly Rock to anyone else is obviously unacceptable to him. Second, I don't understand why Jamie staying on in the Kingsguard counts as the obvious choice when he killed the last motherlovin' king. I imagine that Robert would have loved to see the back of him, and given that he had struck a deal with Tywin and cemented the alliance by marrying Cersei, I don't see why Jamie resuming the mantle of heir of Castly Rock would have changed anything, power dynamics-wise. I can't remember whether this was in the show or in one of the threads here, but I was under the impression that Jamie only stuck around in the Kingsguard for Robert's reign to be near Cersei.
posted by Diablevert at 6:49 AM on June 4, 2014


My understanding is, it's "no backsies" in the sense that nobody but the King can release you from the Kingsguard (as Joffrey did with Ser Barristan), which for most people (who aren't Tywin Lannister operating a puppet king) is a pretty significant obstacle to being able to come and go from the Kingsguard as you please.

If it really is no backsies, then I don't understand at all why Tywin would want Jamie, his heir, in the kingsguard in the first place --- leaving Castly Rock to anyone else is obviously unacceptable to him.

He doesn't want Jaime in the Kingsguard, and he never really has, though at some points in time having Jaime in a position to protect and/or kill the king (as necessary for various kings) was useful, which took some of the sting out of Jaime's youthful act of rebellion. However now that Jaime's got no sword hand anymore, he's pretty much only useful to his father for his penis, which his Kingsguard oath [theoretically] prevents him from using, so between that and the rapidly dwindling number of Lannisters these days, Tywin especially wants Jaime out now.

I imagine that Robert would have loved to see the back of him


Maybe, but on the other hand Jaime Lannister is a big part of the reason Robert successfully became king in the first place. And nobody's disputing that Jaime's damn good with a sword; plus Cersei probably influenced Robert to keep him around.
posted by mstokes650 at 7:35 AM on June 4, 2014


I don't understand why Jamie staying on in the Kingsguard counts as the obvious choice when he killed the last motherlovin' king. I imagine that Robert would have loved to see the back of him

It's probably safer having him on the Kingsguard than as a competing Lord with his own castle.
posted by tofu_crouton at 7:51 AM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Jaime being on the Kingsguard was partially an act of rebellion by Jaime (I mean, I guess he could have refused) but mostly an act of spite by the Mad King against Tywin, using an honor to screw Tywin out of an heir (which he could still get through Tyrion, but we know how palatable that idea is to Tywin Lannister.) As for the "no backsies" thing, I imagine that, like Ser Barristan Selmy before him, he serves at the pleasure of the King. Tommen could release Jaime from service, and Tywin controls Tommen.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:08 AM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


It wasn't just you. I don't recall Little Finger speaking quite like this. It's campy and out of place, tone, and rhythm.

Same, I kept expecting him to dramatically unfurl a cape and laugh maniacally while lightning flashed and thunder boomed.
posted by elizardbits at 9:13 AM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


I imagine that Robert would have loved to see the back of him

I think there were a lot of factors at play at the end of the Rebellion; the Lannisters were late comers to Robert's cause, and as such they needed to do a few things to ensure their loyalty was beyond doubt (which is part of the reason why the Sack of KL was such a vicious thing). Robert, in turn, needed to ensure that all these alliances were rewarded and remained intact to ensure his rule. So, Cersei and Robert marry and Jaime gets to stay in the Kingsguard - but Tywin (who had been, by many accounts, a fantastic King's Hand for many, many years under Aerys before they had a falling out) gets sent back to the Rock rather than being given any position. Also, Ned - pissed off over the events that occurred during the Sack - has left the city to go and lift the siege of Storm's End and accept the surrender of the Lords of Highgarden and a few other pieces of mopping up; so (outside of Jon Arryn) Robert may not have had the strong advisers and backing he needed to ensure that the ruins of the old regime were swept away. Consider that Littlefinger, Varys, and Pycelle all also served under Aerys, Robert, Joffrey, and now Tommen.

I can only imagine that those were pretty horrible years at the Rock, as it would have been Tywin and Tyrion as the only Lannisters at home. Which likely explains why Tyrion was in the company of the king's party when they came North.

I still kinda hope that at some point HBO does a spin-off/one season run on the Rebellion; however, I expect that to do so now would be very difficult as it would likely be spoiler-ific for fans of both book and show, as I think there are still some events from the Rebellion that tie into certain story lines still in progress.
posted by nubs at 9:20 AM on June 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


If he does go to Castle Black, then I guess the question is whether or not he'll get there before the Wildlings decimate it. We're always being reminded that 100 Night's Watchmen can't hold off 100,000 Wildlings and giants, so their only chance would be to get reinforcements

I'm somehow imagining the white walkers swooping in and eating a few tens of thousands of the wildings -- just before dawn - but then I guess there would be a few tens of thousands of more white walkers taking on the men of Castle Black.

I forgot that Stannis might be on his way.
posted by vitabellosi at 9:32 AM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


My understanding is, it's "no backsies" in the sense that nobody but the King can release you from the Kingsguard (as Joffrey did with Ser Barristan)

Well, it was originally really "no backsies", not even with a King. Remember Barristan's speech? Only death is supposed to release a member of the Kingsguard. But since Joffrey set the precedent, now people are acknowledging it can happen.
posted by corb at 10:04 AM on June 4, 2014


I forgot that Stannis might be on his way.

Here's the scene: S3E10 Game of Thrones: Davos shows Stannis the note from Castle Black
posted by homunculus at 10:27 AM on June 4, 2014


Sometimes I suspect that Daenarys is being set up to be the Big Bad of the whole series...

Ok, I've been thinking more about the show's overall trajectory and now I've decided that this is a pretty good way for things to shake out in the spirit of the show:

Basically, the "good guys" come out on top. Stannis and Jon Snow bravely fend off the White Walkers while Bran Frodos his way to completing his quest which somehow stops them. The subversion of this heroic quest business is that none of them ultimately survive their victory and nobody is there to remember it and tell their stories.

Margaery and Tommen consolidate their control over King's Landing and Cersei ends up in the dungeons. Margaery's pregnant. Littlefinger outmaneuvers the Boltons and consolidates control over the North, and then Sansa betrays him and assumes her rightful place as Queen of the North. She and Margaery resume their friendship in a mirror of Ned's and Robert's old friendship. The whole crew then begin to implement Sensible Economic Reforms and looks like everyone's going to survive winter rather better than usual. Everything's sorted.

THAT'S when Dany shows up. She's got her Unsullied and Second Sons and whatever else from Essos, but also Dorne has willingly joined her, Ellaria Sand has taken Jorah's place as her most trusted advisor, and Ellaria's out to wreak her overdeveloped sense of vengeance on every noble in King's Landing. Dany is easily persuaded to do so. "Kill all the nobles? Don't mind if I do!" And had Dany shown up a couple years earlier, she'd have been pretty justified.

Westeros is dead out of veteran soldiers. The battle is a cakewalk.

At the end, Dany and her dragons corner Margaery and Tommen in the throne room. They beg. Dany doesn't listen. "Dracarys."

They burn.

The Iron Throne melts.*

End of series.

* For the full Hamlet, put Sansa there with M & T, have Arya finally make it there to see her sister, have Arya kill Dany after the Iron Throne melts, have a dragon kill Arya, and then have the dragons burn the city down.
posted by furiousthought at 10:30 AM on June 4, 2014 [29 favorites]


I like it. :-)

It's not what I would write, but I think it fits perfectly well with the MO of George "If you think this has a happy ending, you haven't been paying attention" RR Martin.
posted by lord_wolf at 10:33 AM on June 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


Part of the reason I thought Jaime was also ok with joining the Kingsguard was so that he would not be required to marry and get it on with anyone other than his sister, who conveniently happened to be hanging around the king.

He's really quite devoted in his thwarted way.
posted by chatongriffes at 10:39 AM on June 4, 2014 [4 favorites]


Is there a Kickstarter for your fanfiction yet? That sounds amazing.
posted by corb at 10:57 AM on June 4, 2014


Grey Work

Bah. And the annoying thing is I agonized over whether it was "Gray" or "Grey".
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:56 AM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


[Folks, try and keep in mind that stuff that falls into the "if you read the book / watched the promo / watched the commentary" bucket and isn't stuff that wasn't directly in the actual episode is better avoided.]
posted by cortex at 11:59 AM on June 4, 2014


At the end, Dany and her dragons corner Margaery and Tommen in the throne room. They beg. Dany doesn't listen. "Dracarys."

They burn.

The Iron Throne melts.


Daenerys is going to lose control of the dragons fairly soon, I think.
posted by clockzero at 12:17 PM on June 4, 2014


I'm guessing she'll lose control of two of them but keep one. One rider for one dragon makes sense, but I doubt one human can control three of them for long.
posted by homunculus at 12:43 PM on June 4, 2014


With Jorah gone, Daenerys is probably going to make several big bloody mistakes. Teenage dragons that just want to have fun will be the least of her problems.

Grey Worm and Missandei might have a bit of fun though, so theres that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:52 PM on June 4, 2014




Hmm, my storyline would have to wrap things up in Season 6 or 7, I think, it's too fast if they're doing 8 seasons...maybe if Dany spent a season or two imprisoned or something, and got to do the whole heroic comeback thing.
posted by furiousthought at 12:59 PM on June 4, 2014


The Viper vs. the Mountain: the Denial Version.
posted by norm at 1:04 PM on June 4, 2014 [16 favorites]


Needs more puppies.
posted by homunculus at 1:52 PM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


'Game of Thrones' Emilia Clarke talks Dany's harsh break-up with [spoiler]

> But I fear Jorah dude will turn out to be a petty vindictive asshole once he's far enough away and with a chance to weight his possibilities for the near future.

Yeah, this is more realistic than my rosy idea.
posted by homunculus at 2:31 PM on June 4, 2014






Butch Deadlift! Fist Rockbone! Bob Johnson! Wait.
posted by norm at 2:44 PM on June 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


Smash Lampjaw! Big McLargehuge!
posted by Navelgazer at 2:45 PM on June 4, 2014 [5 favorites]


This will help fix things. Oberyn vs Mountain, Denial Edition.
posted by jokeefe at 2:55 PM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Dammit norm.
posted by jokeefe at 3:20 PM on June 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


Seeing Oberyn killed, when he clearly had victory in his hands, was just terrible. The character was great to watch and his skill and delight during the battle was mesmerizing. But damn the desire for revenge in an honorable way. Can't the Brotherhood bring him back? C'mon HBO, make it happen!

I hope the actor who played him, Pedro Pascal, gets a lot of work due to his performance because he really brought the character to life.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:30 PM on June 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


Can't the Brotherhood bring him back?

Well, the leader of the Brotherhood, Beric Dondarrion, was also killed by the Mountain (and later by the Hound) before Thoros brought him back. The Brotherhood should just follow the Mountain around and resurrect his victims.
posted by homunculus at 5:33 PM on June 4, 2014 [6 favorites]


I hope the actor who played him, Pedro Pascal, gets a lot of work due to his performance because he really brought the character to life.

Agreed. I didn't care about Oberyn at all when reading, and Pedro completely sold me on that character. I would really, really like to see him show up as a lead on his own show.
posted by bfranklin at 5:40 PM on June 4, 2014 [9 favorites]


Oberyn was just such fun to watch. Imagine if he'd lived and taken the imp home with him. The intrigues that might have unfolded next season.
posted by humanfont at 5:55 PM on June 4, 2014


The death of Oberyn, a character popular with the audience, also makes me wonder if the show will lose people with its relentless killing off of "heroes". It's worked for The Walking Dead, but they're in a perpetually messed up situation that has no potentially happy outcome. GoT is following the classical good and evil tropes (at least broadly). Seeing Roose and Ramsey traipsing around Winterfell will be sure to grate.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:06 PM on June 4, 2014


but they're in a perpetually messed up situation that has no potentially happy outcome

You know, that "Don't leave me alone in this world" line by Ellaria has really resonated with me. Because i don't think the GoT world sucks any less than the walking dead world. Hell, they're literally about to get mowed down by zombies in this world as well. Everyone is killing eachother, zombies are about to show up, and there's the constant cold war-esque threat of essentially, nuclear annihilation by dragons within the next couple years.

There's not all that much less bleak of a picture being painted here, if anything it's worse. just more boobs.
posted by emptythought at 6:22 PM on June 4, 2014 [4 favorites]


Bearing in mind that Beric Dondarrian has over time become a mess of scars and fatal wounds, I'm not sure a priest of R'hllor could do much for Oberyn, what with his head in the condition it's in. Coming back from getting stabbed in the torso is a bit different from having your head squished in, and he'd certainly not be so pretty.
posted by Pope Guilty at 6:45 PM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Oh, I'd say that The Walking Dead is much worse because they know how much they lost. The GoT world has many problems, including the increase in warfare after Robert's peaceful reign. But it hasn't seen such a catastrophic downgrade in the quality of life.

The GoT world is large enough that even the oming zombie horde (where are those guys anyway?) won't reach Essos or possibly Dorne.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:54 PM on June 4, 2014


Darth Sansa
posted by Jacqueline at 7:05 PM on June 4, 2014 [1 favorite]


Oh, I'd say that The Walking Dead is much worse because they know how much they lost. The GoT world has many problems, including the increase in warfare after Robert's peaceful reign. But it hasn't seen such a catastrophic downgrade in the quality of life.

This is true, though I just like to look at this, because I hadn't really considered it until the other day.

(I'm pretty sure I'm sticking purely with the show here)

At the beginning of the series, there are eight great houses in Westeros, all of them pretty healthy and strong.

The North: House Stark - Now scattered and presumed dead for the most part. Seat taken by the most heinous and dishonorable fucks in the land.

The Vale: House Aaron - Lord Jon Aaron's death starts off the series, and now little Lord Milklips is the only thing remaining, and not looking long for this world.

The Riverlands: House Tully - Eviscerated at the Red Wedding. Either dead, missing or captives of Frey, and it's unclear who is where in that situation.

The Iron Islands: House Greyjoy - Patriarch rumored dead, only living heir tortured and emasculated beyond usefulness. Strong, badass daughter could take the reins, if the traditions aren't too patriarchal, otherwise a mess.

The Stormlands: House Baratheon - In open rebellion, with few bannermen and no chance at a legitimate heir.Got some backing from Braavos, but the House is all but finished.

The Westerlands: House Lannister - No more gold production, eating each other alive, no viable heir by Tywin's line to Casterly Rock.

The Reach: House Tyrell - Doing quite well, thank you very much, though having some allegiances more securely fastened would go a long way...

Dorne: House Martell - A wild card, though certainly pissed and not without skill.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:59 PM on June 4, 2014 [3 favorites]


Within the universe of the show, Dorne is safe enough for a very paranoid and protective Cersei to send Myrcella to, so one could assume that they're doing pretty well compared to the embattled mainland.
posted by codacorolla at 8:44 PM on June 4, 2014


Dorne is safe enough for a very paranoid and protective Cersei to send Myrcella to

I thought that was Tyrion's idea, and Cersei was furious with him for it.
posted by homunculus at 8:51 PM on June 4, 2014


The GoT world is large enough that even the oming zombie horde (where are those guys anyway?) won't reach Essos or possibly Dorne.

I wonder if Essos really is safe, though. The Walkers were defeated before, so given a long and severe enough Winter they might decide to exterminate all humans everywhere this time. After they've conquered some port cities, why wouldn't they have their wights sail them to Essos where they could start building another undead army?
posted by homunculus at 8:57 PM on June 4, 2014


The Stormlands: House Baratheon - In open rebellion, with few bannermen and no chance at a legitimate heir.Got some backing from Braavos, but the House is all but finished.

Psh, sorry, House Baratheon holds the Iron Throne! You don't believe all those rumors about the parentage of Tommen Baratheon, do you?
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:20 PM on June 4, 2014 [3 favorites]


The Pedro Pascal casting newswire on the AvClub was particularly memorable, and now I realize, particularly prescient as well: "Game Of Thrones casts its first season four character it hasn't taken away from you yet"
posted by john-a-dreams at 10:08 PM on June 4, 2014 [2 favorites]


I wonder if Essos really is safe, though. The Walkers were defeated before, so given a long and severe enough Winter they might decide to exterminate all humans everywhere this time. After they've conquered some port cities, why wouldn't they have their wights sail them to Essos where they could start building another undead army?

If everything gets colder and freezes around them when they walk, couldn't they just march straight across the narrow sea in a massive horde? It's not like saltwater doesn't freeze when it gets cold enough.
posted by emptythought at 10:34 PM on June 4, 2014


George RR Martin's editor hints at eighth Game of Thrones book

George R.R. Martin clarifies his publishing plan, talks 'Thrones' changes

"As I’ve been saying for years, I wish they had more hours — every time I see another HBO show I wonder why we only have 10 and they have 13."

Hear, hear.
posted by homunculus at 10:56 PM on June 4, 2014 [3 favorites]


I kind of agree with the Grantland recap that at this point the most radical thing to happen on the show would be Something Nice And 100% Not Bad Happening For Literally Anyone.
posted by The Whelk at 11:39 PM on June 4, 2014 [4 favorites]


Roose Bolton invents coffee

Walder Frey discovers the joy of painting

Osha and Rickon just chill in a riverside cabin somewhere

Gendry lands on a remote & uncharted Minoan civilization analogue where they have a nascent democracy and awesome plumbing

Missandei adopts a cat
posted by furiousthought at 12:13 AM on June 5, 2014 [14 favorites]


Brienne and Pod have a series of heartwarming adventures about learning and growing with no horrible things happen and maybe they rescue a puppy.
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 AM on June 5, 2014 [6 favorites]


(Brienne teaches Pod about swordplay and riding and Pod teaches Brienne about wine and social niceties in diplomacy)
posted by The Whelk at 12:18 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Gendry lands on a remote & uncharted Minoan civilization analogue where they have a nascent democracy and awesome plumbing

Maybe he'll reach the Summer Isles.
posted by homunculus at 12:27 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


I was hoping this last episode would start with a flashback to the siege of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion, which would have added context to the big fight. They could have done at least half an episode on that, with Jamie killing the Mad King and Clegane murdering Elia and her children. If they need to pad the series to give Martin more time to write, showing the historical events they're always alluding to would help. But it would also cost more money to produce, so I guess it's unlikely.
posted by homunculus at 12:43 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Missandei adopts a cat

Missandei's cat and Ser Pounce enter diplomatic relations to create a peace treaty between Westeros and Slaver's Bay. To make sure it works, the Children of the Forest attend and magically place the two kitties under the Veil of Ignorance (you know, like on Doctor Who).
posted by homunculus at 12:52 AM on June 5, 2014 [3 favorites]


Brienne and Pod have a series of heartwarming adventures about learning and growing with no horrible things happen and maybe they rescue a puppy.

Snoop puppy?
posted by homunculus at 12:59 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Missandei adopts a cat

Given what she does to people, I'd hate to see what she does to an animal.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:15 AM on June 5, 2014


Wait, that's Melisandre. I don't think a pet's the kind of affection Missandei has in mind.
posted by Pope Guilty at 1:16 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


Brienne and Pod fall madly in love... She teaches him swordplay, he teaches her "swordplay".
posted by pearlybob at 1:17 AM on June 5, 2014 [4 favorites]


And Hotpie teaches them all the secret lore of making good gravy.
posted by homunculus at 1:29 AM on June 5, 2014 [8 favorites]


"As I’ve been saying for years, I wish they had more hours — every time I see another HBO show I wonder why we only have 10 and they have 13."

No, quit trying pad this out George. Tell the story and be done with it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:20 AM on June 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


Also, George, because your show costs way, way more to produce. This isn't a mystery.
posted by Navelgazer at 4:33 AM on June 5, 2014 [5 favorites]


the secret lore of making good gravy

Just don't ask the Thenns how they make theirs, though.
posted by Iosephus at 4:50 AM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


George RR Martin's editor hints at eighth Game of Thrones book

Said editor also hinted at the heat death of the universe.

It'll be a race!
posted by srboisvert at 6:37 AM on June 5, 2014 [9 favorites]


...capping the Thrones with staggered feature films. The proposal (which Martin notes did not originate with him) would give the author more time to finish his saga, while also giving producers the bigger theatrical budget that his as-yet-unpublished climactic battle scenes are expected to require...."I’ve been skeptical about it because I’ve heard of a number of other shows that were [supposedly going to have movies] like Deadwood, Rome and even The Sopranos, and the only one I’ve actually seen is Sex and the City,” Martin says.

The man has a point.
posted by nubs at 8:18 AM on June 5, 2014 [4 favorites]


So, returning to Sansa's dress, are those crow feathers on the collar? I can't help thinking there might be significance to that beyond black=badass.
posted by Sys Rq at 8:22 AM on June 5, 2014 [3 favorites]


X-Files had movies. (and so did Twin Peaks!)
posted by goethean at 9:27 AM on June 5, 2014


are those crow feathers on the collar? I can't help thinking there might be significance

Well crows are really only symbolic of the watch. Ravens, on the other hand, carry all the secrets and information to the lords of Westeros.
posted by cmfletcher at 9:39 AM on June 5, 2014 [9 favorites]


X-Files had movies. (and so did Twin Peaks!)

Those are both network series. He's talking about HBO.
posted by Sys Rq at 10:06 AM on June 5, 2014


I was hoping this last episode would start with a flashback to the siege of King's Landing during Robert's Rebellion, which would have added context to the big fight. They could have done at least half an episode on that, with Jamie killing the Mad King and Clegane murdering Elia and her children.

A kind of consistent theme in the books and show is that people remember the past differently and take different lessons from it. So if they went to the flashback route, especially events like that one which have entirely different meanings for different characters, it would unnecessarily cure some ambiguities that I am sure the producers have no interest in clearing up.
posted by norm at 10:26 AM on June 5, 2014 [5 favorites]


"As I’ve been saying for years, I wish they had more hours — every time I see another HBO show I wonder why we only have 10 and they have 13."

Compare budgets George, compare budgets.
posted by juiceCake at 10:41 AM on June 5, 2014


When will Dany show up North of the Wall with her dragons and make more dragonglass????
posted by vitabellosi at 11:32 AM on June 5, 2014




A song that would have been perfect in the credits for this episode: In the Fall by Future Islands. (sniff) :'(

I feel safe, I feel whole
knowing that it wasn't your fault or mine
I've felt the change
in the colors in leaves
the color of dreams
time passing in sleep

fall, fall
you were my
best friend

and the spring will leave this room
and the flowers trapped inside
and the rain will stop and the ladders flood under the weight of budding eyes
and the king will hear the call from the silence of his crown and free us from these casualties
his majesty allows

and the spring will leave this room
for now
and the spring will leave this room
hands down
and the spring will leave this room
for now
and the spring will leave this room
for now

I feel safe and I feel whole
knowing that it wasn't your fault
it wasn't your fault

fall, fall
you were my
best friend

and the spring will leave this room
and the flowers trapped inside
and the rain will stop and the ladders break under the weight of budding eyes
and the queen will hear the call from the silence of her crown
and free us from these tragedies her majesty allows

and the spring will leave this room
for now
and the spring will leave this room
arms out
and the spring will leave this room
for now
and the spring will leave this room
for now

fall, fall
you were my
best friend
posted by foxhat10 at 12:41 PM on June 5, 2014


Game of Thrones, Sex, and HBO (I think this was written a few episodes back, but just came onto the web today).
posted by nubs at 2:40 PM on June 5, 2014 [2 favorites]




Ah, that again. I completely disagree with Bethany Jones' interpretation of what happened in the books and with her analysis with whether the show portrays more or less blatant sexual sadism than the books. So it makes her whole analysis kind of suspect.
posted by Justinian at 4:07 PM on June 5, 2014


That was a good article, nubs. Thanks.

Spoiler warning: The article nubs linked to has a potential spoiler hidden in the very last paragraph. It's not explicit, but if you mouse-over the word "character" the url will give it away. If you don't mouse-over or click the link you can probably read it safely, or you could just skip the last paragraph.
posted by homunculus at 4:27 PM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


I don't think that's a spoiler unless you mean a spoiler for like the first season.
posted by Justinian at 5:05 PM on June 5, 2014


The author says it's something that's coming up soon. She also doesn't think it's in the books, so it would be a spoiler for book-readers and non-readers alike.

For those who want to avoid it, just stay away from the last paragraph. The rest of the article is worth reading.
posted by homunculus at 5:22 PM on June 5, 2014


I'm pretty sure it is a spoiler (just a warning for others who, like me, might have believed Justinian and gone and done the thing that homunculus told us not to)
posted by sparklemotion at 5:22 PM on June 5, 2014


Yeah, that's a non-book show-specific spoiler. And what the fuck is wrong with the showrunners that that seems like a good idea???
posted by coriolisdave at 5:46 PM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]


I'm still pretty sure its not a spoiler. So there!
posted by Justinian at 5:51 PM on June 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


I think Justinian is right. The Jezebel article that nubs linked to claims that the Telegraph is reporting something that will happen in the future, but if you read the Telegraph article carefully it appears to be about something that has already happened. I think the author of the Jezebel article misinterpreted the Telegraph article, which was itself reporting on something in another magazine. I've found a scan of the original article and it seems clear that it relates to something in season 1. (Note: that URL contains the name of an actor related to the spoiler).
posted by Pink Frost at 5:51 PM on June 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


If it is a spoiler that's gonna be cray cray.
posted by Justinian at 5:51 PM on June 5, 2014


It cant be a spoiler. They haven't started filming season 5 yet.
posted by Justinian at 5:59 PM on June 5, 2014


FanFare: So there!
posted by homunculus at 6:03 PM on June 5, 2014


Yeah, that's a either a big ol' spoiler (for both readers and watchers) in the last paragraph or else it's referring to something that happened a couple of seasons ago, during the riot in King's Landing.

I hope it's the later, because I didn't want to bring any spoilers in.
posted by nubs at 6:13 PM on June 5, 2014


I've found a scan of the original article and it seems clear that it relates to something in season 1.

Oh, okay, if that's what it refers to then it happened in season 2. Though how the director could describe that scene as “choreographed like a ballet” and “beautiful” is beyond me.

Nevermind.
posted by homunculus at 6:17 PM on June 5, 2014


Sorry, yeah, season 2. Really glad it's not something that's going to happen.
posted by Pink Frost at 6:23 PM on June 5, 2014


You know, like the ballet Leda and the Swan? Without the dancing?
posted by Justinian at 6:30 PM on June 5, 2014 [2 favorites]


I completely disagree with Bethany Jones' interpretation of what happened in the books and with her analysis with whether the show portrays more or less blatant sexual sadism than the books. So it makes her whole analysis kind of suspect.

I'm finding a lot of the critical writing on the books & show to be interesting reading, regardless of whether or not I agree with their interpretations and analysis; it's a series I greatly enjoy, and I'm finding it quite enjoyable to see how others are engaging with it and challenging aspects of it.
posted by nubs at 6:54 PM on June 5, 2014 [1 favorite]






Ah ok, I didn't click through.. that makes a bit more sense.
posted by coriolisdave at 10:24 PM on June 5, 2014


Does Tyrion get a last meal before the execution?
posted by homunculus at 12:07 AM on June 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


Marvel is working on movie for Doctor Strange. Pedro Pascal (who played Oberyn) would make an excellent lead. MAKE IT SO.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:34 AM on June 6, 2014 [5 favorites]


Game of Thrones' Mountain Played the Hulk at a 3-Year-Old's Birthday Party

I am a sucker for glorious side-eye and that one kid at the end being held by his grandma could give Margery a run for her money.
posted by Diablevert at 7:30 AM on June 6, 2014




Sansa and Littlefinger are my jam. Those two are going places.

Sucks about Oberyn's death, but he was a fine character with a fine run. "Premature" deaths are, if anything, a high compliment in GoT: no point in killing somebody off so horribly, unless they had made a big impression in the first place.

Pedro Pascal would make a great Dr. Strange. 4chan is pushing for Aiden Gillen, actually. Me, I still think Mos Def would be the way to go.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:07 AM on June 6, 2014


End credits shoulda rolled to the theme from Curb Your Enthusiasm.
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:12 AM on June 6, 2014 [3 favorites]


I dunno, I was thinking just an isolated Kim Deal & Frank Black "ooooooooh ooooooh—" "stop!" sample from the start of Where Is My Mind and then silence.
posted by cortex at 9:14 AM on June 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


Pedro Pascal is in Shakespeare in the Park right now :)
posted by So You're Saying These Are Pants? at 9:15 AM on June 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


They Might Be Giants' "Experimental Film" would be appropriate closing music.
posted by norm at 9:20 AM on June 6, 2014


See, the episode and the titular Experimental Film have the same ending...
posted by norm at 9:22 AM on June 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


Let Me Blow Ya Mind - Eve (with Gwen Stefani)
Who By Fire - Coil
You Can't Always Get What You Want - The Rolling Stones
Rocky - The Lonely Island
End Theme From Gremlins 2 - Jerry Goldsmith (incl. the Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck cameos)
Yet Another Cover of "The Rains of Castomere", But With The Lyrics Awkwardly Changed To Be About Dorne - Respected Indie Band
posted by Sticherbeast at 9:27 AM on June 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


Beautiful Death: The Gods have made their will known
posted by homunculus at 12:08 PM on June 6, 2014


Does Tyrion get a last meal before the execution?

I ended up reading the book version of Mountain vs. Viper, and it reminded me why I just can't get on with them.

When the skull-crushing happens, Tyrion up-chucks the large breakfast he'd treated himself to, and rather than leave at "he threw up", GRRM recounts every single item he had for breakfast, right down to the dornish red peppers. I'm all for detail, but I am more for editing, I think.

In an (my) ideal world someone would go in and chop out about 30% out of each book, then I'd be up for reading them.
posted by Jon Mitchell at 12:23 PM on June 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


In an (my) ideal world someone would go in and chop out about 30% out of each book, then I'd be up for reading them.

Yeah, I tried reading them when my son first recommended them a few years back before the series started, but ye gods GRRM's a pedestrian writer. A world-builder beyond compare, but the prose is pretty dreadful-- like Tolkien in that respect.
posted by jokeefe at 12:34 PM on June 6, 2014


I think it started out decent in the first book and gradually got worse as he stopped being edited. His writing in Dying of the Light and Fevre Dream is pretty good. I mean, he's not Nabokov even in those, but who is really?
posted by Justinian at 1:08 PM on June 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


Gene Wolfe.
posted by Iridic at 1:14 PM on June 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


His writing in Dying of the Light and Fevre Dream is pretty good.

Before the show came out, a friend had been trying to get me to read ASOIAF, and I had little interest because I'm super picky when it comes to fantasy. Then I decided to give them a try after all when I realized that this GRRM guy was the author of one of my absolute favorite sci fi short stories. If I ever go to a signing of his, I will be That Fucking Hipster With The Obscure Early Work.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:18 PM on June 6, 2014


I think it started out decent in the first book and gradually got worse as he stopped being edited.

cough Rowling cough
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:20 PM on June 6, 2014 [3 favorites]


BTW, the last two episodes of GOT are going to have two FanFare threads each, one for the books and one for the show. More details here: New labels at FanFare for special case threads.
posted by homunculus at 1:29 PM on June 6, 2014


cough Rowling cough

Anne Rice, too. The Vampire Lestat is fantastic; the books which followed it drop off in quality markedly. Apparently that was when she ditched her editor, and it shows.
posted by jokeefe at 1:49 PM on June 6, 2014 [1 favorite]


The Vampire Lestat is fantastic; the books which followed it drop off in quality markedly.

I read Interview with the Vampire and deliberately left it on a train so I wouldn't have to keep owning it for even one more minute.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:18 PM on June 6, 2014 [2 favorites]


Huh. Gwendoline Christie has just been cast in the new Star Wars films (role unknown) and Pedro Pascal has been cast as the lead in the next big Netflix original series called Narcos.

Seems like getting any sort of decent role in Game of Thrones is the biggest break an actor can get today so long as you pull it off well.
posted by Justinian at 3:15 PM on June 6, 2014 [5 favorites]




I dunno, I was thinking just an isolated Kim Deal & Frank Black "ooooooooh ooooooh—" "stop!" sample from the start of Where Is My Mind and then silence.

Or "Broken Face"?
posted by furiousthought at 4:14 PM on June 6, 2014


I'm surprised that I haven't yet seen a mash-up of Oberyn's death and this.
posted by painquale at 5:17 PM on June 6, 2014 [4 favorites]




Then I decided to give them a try after all when I realized that this GRRM guy was the author of one of my absolute favorite sci fi short stories.

Hunh, that wasn't either of the short stories of his that immediately came to my mind. I've not read that one, so thanks! But yeah, like many fine authors, the man needs an editor; the first ASOIAF book is pretty tight and the rest suffer from progressively more bloat.
posted by mstokes650 at 10:44 PM on June 7, 2014


I read Interview with the Vampire and deliberately left it on a train so I wouldn't have to keep owning it for even one more minute.

Not to quibble, but Interview with the Vampire is really inferior to Lestat as well. It's the only book of Rice's that I've really enjoyed and I do try to argue in its defence-- she's capable of doing so much better than her last numbers of books demonstrate.

posted by jokeefe at 10:53 PM on June 7, 2014


I've been on vacation for a week, so I didn't watch this episode until just now. As if by not watching, Oberyn and Ellaria would still be lounging about being charming together. And then I actually watched, and maybe seeing the end on a tablet instead of a TV screen would in fact have been the wiser choice. Sigh. But valar morghulis, so now to read the thread.
posted by rewil at 8:17 AM on June 8, 2014 [1 favorite]






From homunculus' last link: Game of Thrones on the big screen?
posted by Night_owl at 10:30 AM on June 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Happy Thronesday, people!
posted by Justinian at 11:17 AM on June 8, 2014


This is the song playing in the background of the preview for tonight's episode, btw: Chelsea Wolfe - Feral Love
posted by homunculus at 2:55 PM on June 8, 2014


Don't worry Littlefinger, Sansa knows what you want.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:43 PM on June 8, 2014


I want payback for Ros. I hope Sansa finds a way to give Littlefinger to Ramsay. Some people just need flaying.
posted by homunculus at 5:49 PM on June 8, 2014 [1 favorite]




He wants a companion to scheme with. That's why he's been pretty honest with her.

Yeah, I am down with this reading. I think I'm okay with giving up on Sansa being a Good Stark in favor of Sansa becoming a serious player and keeping her ass alive and in the thick of it with Baelish. They'd be a lot more interesting to watch as a couple of sharp minds working in concert than the nervous dance of predation we've had so far, at least.

And because everything is Dune if you try hard enough, specifically I am thinking here of Count and Lady Fenring as a point of comparison. The Count is a soft-spoken, careful weasel of a man with a tremendous sense of ambition, who through chance and effort positions himself very closely to the Emperor, until near the end of the first book it becomes convenient for him to display the strength and ambition to betray said Emperor when the balance of power shifts. Lady Fenring is a femme fatale, with training from a sisterhood that excels at manipulation—something that the slivers of instruction and guidance from Marge & Grandma Tyrell hint at in a really resonant way—and her marriage to the Count while not portrayed as unhappy is also one primarily of mutual convenience and partnership in power.

I mean, her name is Margot Fenring, for crap's sake. I believe this theory more than I did when I started typing two minutes ago.

Also I think I'm ready for HBO to tackle Dune and really, really get it right.
posted by cortex at 6:33 PM on June 8, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also I think I'm ready for HBO to tackle Dune and really, really get it right.

Yes, please. It can be done.
posted by homunculus at 7:09 PM on June 8, 2014


What, the SciFi mini-series wasn't good enough for ya?
posted by octothorpe at 7:22 PM on June 8, 2014


Yeah, I am down with this reading. I think I'm okay with giving up on Sansa being a Good Stark in favor of Sansa becoming a serious player and keeping her ass alive and in the thick of it with Baelish.

One of the things i like about GoT is that almost everyone is a bit bad and a bit good, to use coarse descriptors. So while I hope a Stark eventually reclaims Winterfell, it doesn't have to be a 'Good' Stark. At this point, it probably can't be (unless it's Rikon) and this is one of the main lessons of Ned's death. Wanting to be a good Lord or Lady is fine goal, but that doesn't mean one can be ignorant of the how the game is played or even that there is a game.

At this point, Sansa's in a good position to continue learning while building power and alliances. She's clearly feeling a bit of vengeance, but she's also smart enough to move slowly and carefully. Go Sansa.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:25 PM on June 8, 2014


And because everything is Dune if you try hard enough, specifically I am thinking here of Count and Lady Fenring as a point of comparison.

I'm going to spend the rest of the evening mulling this over while failing to pay attention to the rest of the Sunday evening television deluge.
posted by homunculus at 7:41 PM on June 8, 2014


Hell, there's a lot more to work with now that I think about it.

Not least: Daenerys Targaryen as child scion of a once great house displaced through violent treachery in a coup with Imperial implications. Flees with lone surviving family member to be among desert nomads, a warrior culture with a violent code of honor and a tremendous capability to survive and thrive on the bleak sands, a culture that masters the desert in part through the taming and riding of powerful beasts.

Dany as a synthesis of Paul and Jessica Atreides: both Mahdi and holy woman, proving herself to her desert followers through not trial by water but trial by fire, mastering not giant worm but giant wyrm. Her destiny to return to the throne of Westeros; Paul's terrible purpose of galactic jihad: both ambitions to reclaim and expand an empire. The Fremen also as Zensunni wanderers, disenfranchised slaves united under a charismatic foreign messiah.

Duncan Idaho, swordmaster lost in a battle between houses delaying the enemy against young Paul; Syrio Forel, Braavosi swordmaster lost in a battle between houses delaying the enemy against young Arya. Duncan arises later as a product of Tleilaxu genius; Syrio, we know nothing about, but he is like Jaqen H'ghar a man of Bravos, Jaqen himself a man who can change faces. The Tleilaxu, famous also for their facedancers. Facedancer, waterdancer?

The Mountain, ravaging and terrifying the villages of the North for the Lannisters; the Beast Rabban, ravaging and terrifying Arrakis for Baron Harkonnen. Both dull monsters, useful idiots in a larger scheme.

Joffrey, youthful sadist and willing spearhead of political ambitions; Feyd-Rautha, the same. Both ultimately cut down even as they being to grasp power.

Warlocks and Mentats, Bene Geserrit and Maesters: creatures of mind over might, through witchery and subservience respectively.

The Iron Bank; the Spacing Guild and CHOAM: detached economic engines that do not rule and yet are so powerful that empires cannot but appeal to them.

The long endless desert summer of Arrakis, and the return of water after millions of years envisioned by the ecologists Kynes and Liet-Kynes; the Stark house words, that winter is coming: two very different tellings of the same prediction: a great shift in the weather and climate, with powerfully disruptive implications.

Kanly, chaumurky, the subtle game of royal assassination. Petyr Baelish, Lord Varys: Piter de Vries.

Also Leto II's D-Wolves are basically direwolves, but since nobody actually bothered to read God Emperor or the last two books let's just say the direwolves are represented by the Atreides family pug from the Lynch film.
posted by cortex at 8:55 PM on June 8, 2014 [7 favorites]




let's just say the direwolves are represented by the Atreides family pug yt from the Lynch film.

Surely the direwolves would be battlepugs.
posted by homunculus at 2:47 PM on June 9, 2014 [1 favorite]


Also I think I'm ready for HBO to tackle Dune and really, really get it right.

I mean, as much as i want this too... isn't Dune a bit of a pit of damnation where good directors and screenwriters go to die in agony either through muddled adaptations or flamed out projects? One film failed to launch, the other is very divisive and generally regarded as "not great" by a lot of people(i personally love it, but mostly out of nostalgia because my mom does in a sort of rocky horror way and showed it to me many times as a kid).

Then SyFy made the two miniseries', which while decent aren't really great and feel(and look, in that almost cheesy first season of stargate soap opera kind of way) like well, a SyFy channel miniseries.

There was also recently another mired-to-falling-apart attempt at another shot at a movie, which is apparently completely dead and the rights are released... but still.

I can't imagine it being anything but a hard sell to HBO, much less anyone to jump on a train that has derailed or plodded along so many times.
posted by emptythought at 3:22 PM on June 9, 2014


Call me an optimist! I'd be okay with another interesting failure even, if it came to that.

It occurs to me that the thing I should be most worried about with this idea is the Herbert estate and some sort of post-hoc Brian-ing of the proceedings. Maybe if we could get a ghola of Willis E. McNeely to be head writer...

Surely the direwolves would be battlepugs.

Well now that's just silly.
posted by cortex at 3:29 PM on June 9, 2014


Pugs are serious business.
posted by homunculus at 9:21 PM on June 9, 2014




Reeeeeeally thought that your link was gonna go to this, homunculus.
posted by KathrynT at 12:41 AM on June 10, 2014 [3 favorites]


I'm not Ned Stark...
posted by homunculus at 11:29 AM on June 10, 2014






Here's the scene from Season 1 in which Jorah received his first pardon from Varys but instead decided to save Daenerys and join her in earnest.
posted by homunculus at 5:45 PM on June 20, 2014




So excited for season 5.
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 9:50 PM on April 11, 2015


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