Wheel of Time: Daes Dae'Mar Show Only
October 2, 2023 6:03 AM - Season 2, Episode 7 - Subscribe
All the chess pieces move in closer to being in battle. A familiar face foils Moraine and Rand's plans. New Allegiances are made, and Egwane remains steadfastly defiant.
Everyone has a price and the Dark Ones appear to have an extensive catalogue to entice even the (seemingly) most steadfast.
Or do they?
When (if) Egwene gets to deliver on her promise, I'll be sad to not see the actress involved anymore (perhaps?) but it might also be the most satisfying moment in the entire series so far.
Princess Elayne brooks no shit. This is also satisfying.
Poor Matt is the buttmonkey this week.
Rand - Rand starts actively making decisions!
Surprise appearance by Pollyanna !
Next weeks episode is the finale of season 2.
Everyone has a price and the Dark Ones appear to have an extensive catalogue to entice even the (seemingly) most steadfast.
Or do they?
When (if) Egwene gets to deliver on her promise, I'll be sad to not see the actress involved anymore (perhaps?) but it might also be the most satisfying moment in the entire series so far.
Princess Elayne brooks no shit. This is also satisfying.
Poor Matt is the buttmonkey this week.
Rand - Rand starts actively making decisions!
Surprise appearance by Pollyanna !
Next weeks episode is the finale of season 2.
I had to bail on this show, probably forever, near the end of the previous episode. Too much torture for me.
posted by jordemort at 7:03 AM on October 2, 2023
posted by jordemort at 7:03 AM on October 2, 2023
That's probably my biggest issue with the adaptation -- in book form you can skim and reduce your torture-per-page uptake when you get to your "I get it, they're bad" saturation point. In video format you're stuck receiving exactly the amount of torture/gaslighting/abuse content they want to deliver, and it's too much for me too. Liberal use of the "skip 15 seconds ahead" button during this episode as well.
posted by range at 7:52 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by range at 7:52 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'll post for the next episode unless anyone else would like to.
I think we could skip a lot of the torture if they ("they") trusted the audience to understand. Or maybe it could be shown more obliquely or something.
I'm still 100% on board. I came in knowing that there would have to be big compromises and flaws, and I'm still impressed at how well it's working.
posted by Acari at 11:48 AM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think we could skip a lot of the torture if they ("they") trusted the audience to understand. Or maybe it could be shown more obliquely or something.
I'm still 100% on board. I came in knowing that there would have to be big compromises and flaws, and I'm still impressed at how well it's working.
posted by Acari at 11:48 AM on October 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
I didn't realize this season was almost over, I wonder what will be resolved next episode and what will be left for future seasons.
How Moiraine was "stilled" was pretty clever as was its resolution. Do you think Rand was able to see the weave enough to replicate it in the future? For all the Amyrlin said about Moiraine not teaching Rand enough it seems like the Aes Sedai in general know way less about how to channel the One Power than they should if they plan on actually beating the Forsaken and their allies.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:43 PM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
How Moiraine was "stilled" was pretty clever as was its resolution. Do you think Rand was able to see the weave enough to replicate it in the future? For all the Amyrlin said about Moiraine not teaching Rand enough it seems like the Aes Sedai in general know way less about how to channel the One Power than they should if they plan on actually beating the Forsaken and their allies.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:43 PM on October 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I loved this episode. Pieces moving on the board, allegiance shifting, and much ado about nothing.
posted by rebent at 2:03 PM on October 2, 2023
posted by rebent at 2:03 PM on October 2, 2023
Yeah, the whole Aes Sedai plan on caging up the Dragon and never letting him use his power until the one confrontation when BLAMMO out it comes in one big explosion and now the Dark Ones are vanquished for another turning of the wheel... I just.. Man, I dunno. It's like a metaphor for something, although I couldn't possibly imagine what.
I mean ok sure maybe they have centuries of experience with men going cuckoo-crazypants when they use the one power, but it seems like they'd have some experience with how much the young female initiates' power improves through training.
And there's a part of me just sort of rooting for Lanfear, which I'm not sure was intended? And Ishamael sort of comes off as _tired_, and like god maybe we should stop the snake from eating itself, that can't be healthy.
So on the one hand you have the kids from the Two Rivers who are basically having An Adventure™, you have the Bad Guys who are.. uh. trying to stop? or at least control the next cycle of the wheel of time but haven't been particularly shown as _bad_ so much as just kickass and powerful (like, what's their end goal? stopping the cycle of rebirth? killing everybody for the sheer thrill of mass genocide? accumulating power?), and then you have the Aes Sedai who seem kind of vaguely incompetent and rah rah status quo.
If'n you want me to root for the good guys, at some point you gotta do more than tell me they're the good guys. At least define what the bad guys are doing?
posted by Kyol at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I mean ok sure maybe they have centuries of experience with men going cuckoo-crazypants when they use the one power, but it seems like they'd have some experience with how much the young female initiates' power improves through training.
And there's a part of me just sort of rooting for Lanfear, which I'm not sure was intended? And Ishamael sort of comes off as _tired_, and like god maybe we should stop the snake from eating itself, that can't be healthy.
So on the one hand you have the kids from the Two Rivers who are basically having An Adventure™, you have the Bad Guys who are.. uh. trying to stop? or at least control the next cycle of the wheel of time but haven't been particularly shown as _bad_ so much as just kickass and powerful (like, what's their end goal? stopping the cycle of rebirth? killing everybody for the sheer thrill of mass genocide? accumulating power?), and then you have the Aes Sedai who seem kind of vaguely incompetent and rah rah status quo.
If'n you want me to root for the good guys, at some point you gotta do more than tell me they're the good guys. At least define what the bad guys are doing?
posted by Kyol at 4:38 PM on October 2, 2023 [5 favorites]
I did 'enjoy' the Amyrlin chastising Moiraine. 6 months and you haven't trained him????
6 months at the white tower and you're stilling scrubbing floors! Not to mention that nobody has trained a male channeler for 3,000 years! You know that the Tower is diminished, all the records and artifacts say so, so why would you think you're going to train the alleged saviour of the whole world?
Ishamael is a good salesman for the dark, imo. Ending all suffering is a pretty noble goal, and while it's implied that there's a lie there, I don't know that there's anything beyond myth to argue against him. I think stopping the cycle is worth at least talking about.
(I think the genocide/power/etc angle is probably a motivator for some, but... at least on paper the Seanchan are working for the light, so... no high ground there).
I guess maybe being on the side of Trollocs is a bit of a giveaway. And in An Adventure™, I think we're maybe just supposed to take all of the good/bad at face value.
posted by Acari at 6:21 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
6 months at the white tower and you're stilling scrubbing floors! Not to mention that nobody has trained a male channeler for 3,000 years! You know that the Tower is diminished, all the records and artifacts say so, so why would you think you're going to train the alleged saviour of the whole world?
Ishamael is a good salesman for the dark, imo. Ending all suffering is a pretty noble goal, and while it's implied that there's a lie there, I don't know that there's anything beyond myth to argue against him. I think stopping the cycle is worth at least talking about.
(I think the genocide/power/etc angle is probably a motivator for some, but... at least on paper the Seanchan are working for the light, so... no high ground there).
I guess maybe being on the side of Trollocs is a bit of a giveaway. And in An Adventure™, I think we're maybe just supposed to take all of the good/bad at face value.
posted by Acari at 6:21 PM on October 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
“Ishamael is a good salesman for the dark, imo. Ending all suffering is a pretty noble goal, and while it's implied that there's a lie there, I don't know that there's anything beyond myth to argue against him. I think stopping the cycle is worth at least talking about.”
Yeah, but, you know: pay attention to what people do, less what they say. For example, Lanfear's rampage through Foregate doesn't look great.
It's actually really interesting to me how there are so many stories that hinge upon villains who think a good end justifies evil means. I'm torn between thinking that this (storytelling) message is reductive and trite, or urgent and wise.
I'd say — and would prefer — that it's the latter, but I think it's more the former. Not because the core thesis is untrue, but because these stories' depictions of the villains and their motivations and journey almost always avoid implicating the audience by making them genuinely sympathetic and instead they're almost always cartoonish. So you get villains who are serial killers but talk about the "greater good" which, unfortunately, doesn't really teach the audience anything about how this usually works in the real world. It makes it seem as if it's easy and natural to avoid these ideologies when, sadly, it often takes a lot of self-awareness and, even more sadly, simple resistance to peer-pressure. So these stories just mostly reassure people that they could never be the villain, even though it's necessarily the case that many people are.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:40 AM on October 3, 2023
Yeah, but, you know: pay attention to what people do, less what they say. For example, Lanfear's rampage through Foregate doesn't look great.
It's actually really interesting to me how there are so many stories that hinge upon villains who think a good end justifies evil means. I'm torn between thinking that this (storytelling) message is reductive and trite, or urgent and wise.
I'd say — and would prefer — that it's the latter, but I think it's more the former. Not because the core thesis is untrue, but because these stories' depictions of the villains and their motivations and journey almost always avoid implicating the audience by making them genuinely sympathetic and instead they're almost always cartoonish. So you get villains who are serial killers but talk about the "greater good" which, unfortunately, doesn't really teach the audience anything about how this usually works in the real world. It makes it seem as if it's easy and natural to avoid these ideologies when, sadly, it often takes a lot of self-awareness and, even more sadly, simple resistance to peer-pressure. So these stories just mostly reassure people that they could never be the villain, even though it's necessarily the case that many people are.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:40 AM on October 3, 2023
I think it's interesting that that the series seems to be saying that fundamentalism in any form is self defeating.
The Aes sedai think only women should ever wield magic- and all women who have the innate ability to do so must be elevated - All men who show any magical aptitude must be quelled/spellbound: except for the Dragon who must be treated like a leashed attack dog/primed like a nuclear weapon
The Seanchan (?) view women who can do magic as some weird mystical anomaly who must be treated as sub-human for the benefit of all the rest of humanity. I don't' think the show has mentioned what they do to male channellers yet, but I'd imagine it's insta-death or worse. And they purport to be fighting resolutely on the 'Light' side. We don't' yet know if the 'Empress of the Light' is secretly a Dark One.
The Whitecloaks appear to want all magic users to just stop interfering and be dead, but as everyone reincarnates, finding them and killing them would be unending task
The Dark Ones appear to just want entropy after death, because from their viewpoint - on a long enough timescale everything falls to corruption anyway so why keep turning the wheel at all?
Everyone not part of a faction just wants to get on with their lives - remember how Nynaeve commented on the coastal town being invaded only a few weeks earlier and everyone was just going on about their business? yeah well to the 'normal' people on the ground it's 'same shit different day'. It might have been days not weeks, because the passage of time is very, deeply, terribly communicated in this show.
Infact, the passage of time is only the second most confusing thing about this show.
'When the fuck is this?' is second only to the 'Where the fuck is this?' because the sense of scale and location is something I've given up on.
I don't know if the different locations are different coasts of the same country or entirely different continents.
At this point I'm just along for the ride until the next gorgeous piece of costuming / production lights up the dopamine section of my brain.
What happened to all the Ogre's? Were they hunted to near extinction?
What's up with the Maiden of the Spear women (the Dune-esque female bad ass fighters)?
Remember when Perrin had a, y'know - actual point?
Do Trollocs even have functioning societies / family units or are they just narrative 'insert evil Animalistic Dark One Army Trope here' ?
There's a lot going on and so far - as a non book reader - I'm only rooting for the Aes Sedai and factions that support them because they seem the *least worst* option, also Boozy Librarians.
posted by Faintdreams at 7:19 AM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Aes sedai think only women should ever wield magic- and all women who have the innate ability to do so must be elevated - All men who show any magical aptitude must be quelled/spellbound: except for the Dragon who must be treated like a leashed attack dog/primed like a nuclear weapon
The Seanchan (?) view women who can do magic as some weird mystical anomaly who must be treated as sub-human for the benefit of all the rest of humanity. I don't' think the show has mentioned what they do to male channellers yet, but I'd imagine it's insta-death or worse. And they purport to be fighting resolutely on the 'Light' side. We don't' yet know if the 'Empress of the Light' is secretly a Dark One.
The Whitecloaks appear to want all magic users to just stop interfering and be dead, but as everyone reincarnates, finding them and killing them would be unending task
The Dark Ones appear to just want entropy after death, because from their viewpoint - on a long enough timescale everything falls to corruption anyway so why keep turning the wheel at all?
Everyone not part of a faction just wants to get on with their lives - remember how Nynaeve commented on the coastal town being invaded only a few weeks earlier and everyone was just going on about their business? yeah well to the 'normal' people on the ground it's 'same shit different day'. It might have been days not weeks, because the passage of time is very, deeply, terribly communicated in this show.
Infact, the passage of time is only the second most confusing thing about this show.
'When the fuck is this?' is second only to the 'Where the fuck is this?' because the sense of scale and location is something I've given up on.
I don't know if the different locations are different coasts of the same country or entirely different continents.
At this point I'm just along for the ride until the next gorgeous piece of costuming / production lights up the dopamine section of my brain.
What happened to all the Ogre's? Were they hunted to near extinction?
What's up with the Maiden of the Spear women (the Dune-esque female bad ass fighters)?
Remember when Perrin had a, y'know - actual point?
Do Trollocs even have functioning societies / family units or are they just narrative 'insert evil Animalistic Dark One Army Trope here' ?
There's a lot going on and so far - as a non book reader - I'm only rooting for the Aes Sedai and factions that support them because they seem the *least worst* option, also Boozy Librarians.
posted by Faintdreams at 7:19 AM on October 3, 2023 [4 favorites]
Ending all suffering is a pretty noble goal, and while it's implied that there's a lie there, I don't know that there's anything beyond myth to argue against him.
The argument against him is that he wants to end all existence. Everything. The whole universe. Forever. It's as compelling as despair ever is, which is to say, far too compelling. I think they're doing a very good job portraying what that argument looks like.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:29 AM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
The argument against him is that he wants to end all existence. Everything. The whole universe. Forever. It's as compelling as despair ever is, which is to say, far too compelling. I think they're doing a very good job portraying what that argument looks like.
posted by restless_nomad at 9:29 AM on October 3, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Aes sedai think only women should ever wield magic- and all women who have the innate ability to do so must be elevated - All men who show any magical aptitude must be quelled/spellbound: except for the Dragon who must be treated like a leashed attack dog/primed like a nuclear weapon
The male 'Source' has been Tainted by the Dark One, making literally all male channelers who touch it go insane (unless they're Forsaken).
What happened to all the Ogre's? Were they hunted to near extinction?
FYI: These are off-brand Ogiers. This question has not been answered in-show.
What's up with the Maiden of the Spear women (the Dune-esque female bad ass fighters)?
ITYM the Dune-esque GINGER AS FUCK bad-ass fighters. A piece of world-building that makes less than zero sense, especially as they've somehow maintained a milky-white skin rather than (more realistically) bursting into flames.
posted by coriolisdave at 5:14 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
There's a very specific reason for this, but I honestly don't know if this has clearly stated in the show or if it's my latent book knowledge showing
The male 'Source' has been Tainted by the Dark One, making literally all male channelers who touch it go insane (unless they're Forsaken).
What happened to all the Ogre's? Were they hunted to near extinction?
FYI: These are off-brand Ogiers. This question has not been answered in-show.
What's up with the Maiden of the Spear women (the Dune-esque female bad ass fighters)?
ITYM the Dune-esque GINGER AS FUCK bad-ass fighters. A piece of world-building that makes less than zero sense, especially as they've somehow maintained a milky-white skin rather than (more realistically) bursting into flames.
posted by coriolisdave at 5:14 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
You mean that they don't have tans? (Hopefully, you don't mean the old race theory about climate.)
And about tanning: maybe they don't tan?
But of course this is fantastical, so none of this needs to correspond with real-world biology.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:26 PM on October 3, 2023
And about tanning: maybe they don't tan?
But of course this is fantastical, so none of this needs to correspond with real-world biology.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 5:26 PM on October 3, 2023
Hopefully, you don't mean the old race theory about climate
I don't know what this is, but no - I'm talking about tanning (or, in the case of us ginger folk, incendiaration/freckling)
posted by coriolisdave at 5:46 PM on October 3, 2023
I don't know what this is, but no - I'm talking about tanning (or, in the case of us ginger folk, incendiaration/freckling)
posted by coriolisdave at 5:46 PM on October 3, 2023
ITYM the Dune-esque GINGER AS FUCK bad-ass fighters. A piece of world-building that makes less than zero sense, especially as they've somehow maintained a milky-white skin rather than (more realistically) bursting into flames.
See, I figured it was a nod to Heinlein's favorite hair color...
posted by Kyol at 6:27 PM on October 3, 2023
See, I figured it was a nod to Heinlein's favorite hair color...
posted by Kyol at 6:27 PM on October 3, 2023
These are a fantasy people with fantasy biology. No reason to assume it works like human biology. They have some other UV-blocking mechanism in their skin. There isn't UV light. There is, but it doesn't cause cell damage. There's a simple bit of magic which does the trick. There's no UV blocking, just biology that's super-efficient at repairing UV damage. The desert is hot not because of sunlight, but because there's an underground source of magic raising the ground temp. 🤷🏽
Anyway, I really like how the show (notably in contrast to GoT) undermines the usual racial/cultural tropes. Seanchen culture seems, um, Asian? but they have American accents. The desert people are light-skinned. The friendly giants are dark-skinned (presumably). And so on. Traditional epic fantasy is hella racist, and the source material is no exception, but the show is intentionally going against that.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:57 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
Anyway, I really like how the show (notably in contrast to GoT) undermines the usual racial/cultural tropes. Seanchen culture seems, um, Asian? but they have American accents. The desert people are light-skinned. The friendly giants are dark-skinned (presumably). And so on. Traditional epic fantasy is hella racist, and the source material is no exception, but the show is intentionally going against that.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 6:57 PM on October 3, 2023 [2 favorites]
When Rand draws upon the One power, you can see the Taint.
I highly, highly recommend finding some sort of map to follow along, at least to understand the geopolitics behind what is happening. These are the maps I found useful when diagramming plot threads for myself
posted by rebent at 9:53 PM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I highly, highly recommend finding some sort of map to follow along, at least to understand the geopolitics behind what is happening. These are the maps I found useful when diagramming plot threads for myself
posted by rebent at 9:53 PM on October 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
As already mentioned, Amazon has their "x-ray" feature and, interestingly (I've not seen anything like this before), they always have a map and location for the current scene alongside the info on the actors in the scene. No one should need to use this, really, as this stuff should just be communicated clearly in the show, but it's a nice touch.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:37 AM on October 4, 2023
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:37 AM on October 4, 2023
Lanfear tearing up Cairhien was fun. I wish we could've seen her dropping soldiers or something other than blowing up the poor folks' houses. The actress who plays her does just a great job that's hard not to root for Lanfear, especially when it feels like she's got her own game plan that doesn't align with Ishamael's.
More Aiel! The best way I can manage the Aiel (Wait to you learn more about Toh in Aiel society) is they're kinda like someone took Celts and dropped them in a desert. By Celts, I mean, physiologically speaking, nothing to do with the culture. When I read the books, I definitely coded them as Arabic, not as red-haired white folks running around. I expect, given how the show treats casting, they'll lean more into just "red-haired" and have a diversity of skin color (hopefully?), as we go further into their society. We also got to see the Spear Maiden's hand language which was awesome. It's a sign language unique to the Spear Maiden's in Aiel society (I don't think I'm giving much away there).
I don't really remember what Perrin is up to at the moment, as in what was what in the books, but I'm just happy to see Hopper the Wolf ever present.
Moraine and Siuan were never an item in the books (I don't think?), but I've appreciated how their story has been told with the Wheel/Fate pulling them apart with the Dragon Reborn. It creates a new dynamic to their interactions, such as when Siuan is calling Moraine in this episode and the confrontation before the gate.
How Moiraine was "stilled" was pretty clever as was its resolution. Do you think Rand was able to see the weave enough to replicate it in the future? For all the Amyrlin said about Moiraine not teaching Rand enough it seems like the Aes Sedai in general know way less about how to channel the One Power than they should if they plan on actually beating the Forsaken and their allies.
One of the cool aspects of this series is the re-learning of lost abilities. I won't answer your question specifically about Rand (spoilers), but as the series continues, people will rediscover how to do things that were once known at the time of the Breaking of the World. Ishamael touched upon how much had been forgotten in this episode, for example. Some of this happens because of the interactions between the Forsaken and the heroes of the story.
I'll probably use our time between this upcoming finale and season three to re-read those books. Okay, who am I joking, some of those books.
posted by Atreides at 12:11 PM on October 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
More Aiel! The best way I can manage the Aiel (Wait to you learn more about Toh in Aiel society) is they're kinda like someone took Celts and dropped them in a desert. By Celts, I mean, physiologically speaking, nothing to do with the culture. When I read the books, I definitely coded them as Arabic, not as red-haired white folks running around. I expect, given how the show treats casting, they'll lean more into just "red-haired" and have a diversity of skin color (hopefully?), as we go further into their society. We also got to see the Spear Maiden's hand language which was awesome. It's a sign language unique to the Spear Maiden's in Aiel society (I don't think I'm giving much away there).
I don't really remember what Perrin is up to at the moment, as in what was what in the books, but I'm just happy to see Hopper the Wolf ever present.
Moraine and Siuan were never an item in the books (I don't think?), but I've appreciated how their story has been told with the Wheel/Fate pulling them apart with the Dragon Reborn. It creates a new dynamic to their interactions, such as when Siuan is calling Moraine in this episode and the confrontation before the gate.
How Moiraine was "stilled" was pretty clever as was its resolution. Do you think Rand was able to see the weave enough to replicate it in the future? For all the Amyrlin said about Moiraine not teaching Rand enough it seems like the Aes Sedai in general know way less about how to channel the One Power than they should if they plan on actually beating the Forsaken and their allies.
One of the cool aspects of this series is the re-learning of lost abilities. I won't answer your question specifically about Rand (spoilers), but as the series continues, people will rediscover how to do things that were once known at the time of the Breaking of the World. Ishamael touched upon how much had been forgotten in this episode, for example. Some of this happens because of the interactions between the Forsaken and the heroes of the story.
I'll probably use our time between this upcoming finale and season three to re-read those books. Okay, who am I joking, some of those books.
posted by Atreides at 12:11 PM on October 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is technically a show-only thread so we probably shouldn't get into all that here but maybe this weekend I'll post a whole-season Books Included thread so we can hash it all out, because I have both Thoughts and Feelings.
I'll probably use our time between this upcoming finale and season three to re-read those books.
I can strongly recommend the new audiobook recordings read by Rosamund Pike (Moiraine!). She's fantastic (the earlier ones are kinda dreadful) and really adds something to the books.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:18 PM on October 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'll probably use our time between this upcoming finale and season three to re-read those books.
I can strongly recommend the new audiobook recordings read by Rosamund Pike (Moiraine!). She's fantastic (the earlier ones are kinda dreadful) and really adds something to the books.
posted by restless_nomad at 12:18 PM on October 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
Holy shit, tonight's episode (the one following this one, the finale)! I'll make a post for it if no one else going to because, wow, it was good.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:00 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:00 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Make the post! I'm not going to watch until tonight or tomorrow.
posted by Acari at 5:39 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Acari at 5:39 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Moraine and Siuan were never an item in the books (I don't think?), but I've appreciated how their story has been told with the Wheel/Fate pulling them apart with the Dragon Reborn. It creates a new dynamic to their interactions, such as when Siuan is calling Moraine in this episode and the confrontation before the gate.
I think it was implied in New Spring if I recall properly (hey it's been a while since I read that book).
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:03 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think it was implied in New Spring if I recall properly (hey it's been a while since I read that book).
posted by WaterAndPixels at 8:03 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh it's explicit. (Not that kind of explicit, but on-the-page that they were in a sexual and romantic relationship.)
posted by restless_nomad at 10:44 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by restless_nomad at 10:44 AM on October 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Confession, I don't remember if I finished that book or got distracted. I bought it, I know that much!
posted by Atreides at 10:44 AM on October 6, 2023
posted by Atreides at 10:44 AM on October 6, 2023
Ishamael touched upon how much had been forgotten in this episode, for example. Some of this happens because of the interactions between the Forsaken and the heroes of the story.
I do wonder if the story will address the reverse, that the Forsaken basically just woke up after a 3000 year nap and their knowledge of present-day geography and geopolitics is incomplete or (sometimes) wrong in significant ways. So far the show has presented Ishmael as all but omniscient. There's one fun twist in particular that I'm wondering if we'll get to, although I suspect we will as all the pieces are in place for it.
posted by jedicus at 2:02 PM on November 21, 2023
I do wonder if the story will address the reverse, that the Forsaken basically just woke up after a 3000 year nap and their knowledge of present-day geography and geopolitics is incomplete or (sometimes) wrong in significant ways. So far the show has presented Ishmael as all but omniscient. There's one fun twist in particular that I'm wondering if we'll get to, although I suspect we will as all the pieces are in place for it.
posted by jedicus at 2:02 PM on November 21, 2023
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posted by Faintdreams at 6:04 AM on October 2, 2023 [1 favorite]