Game of Thrones: Hardhome   Books Included 
May 31, 2015 7:04 PM - Season 5, Episode 8 - Subscribe

Tyrion and Dany connect. Arya makes progress in her training. Sansa confronts Theon and learns a secret. Cersei struggles. Jon travels beyond The Wall to Hardhome with Tormund.
posted by zarq (336 comments total) 6 users marked this as a favorite
 
OH MY GOD

OH MY GOD

OH MY GOD????????

GIANTS VERSUS ZOMBIES??????
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:05 PM on May 31, 2015 [10 favorites]


OKAY EVERYTHING ELSE ASIDE there was someone in the credits listed as "hairstylist (dragon)" and that is everything to me now

everything
posted by poffin boffin at 7:06 PM on May 31, 2015 [30 favorites]


BUT FOR REALS the ice zombies? idk? i like? so much? but? was stupid? im conflicted? cry

i hope sansa bakes theon in a pie and chokes ramsay with it
posted by poffin boffin at 7:06 PM on May 31, 2015 [7 favorites]


OKAY EVERYTHING ELSE ASIDE there was someone in the credits listed as "hairstylist (dragon)" and that is everything to me now

I picturing it like the old Bugs Bunny cartoon where he does the monster's nails.
posted by drezdn at 7:08 PM on May 31, 2015 [8 favorites]


Who was it last year that was arguing with me that Valyrian steel wasn't magical, and that it was just well engineered steel?

Anyway, I guess that's where the good fight coordination has been all year, because that was amazing.
posted by codacorolla at 7:08 PM on May 31, 2015 [9 favorites]


Good God, that was some damn fine tv. Arya gets her assignment. Cersei in chains! Sansa learns her brothers are alive! Tyrion and Daenerys chat! ANd then the White Walkers attack! Giants! Zombies! and then the leader of the Walkers silently grows his army. That was just great direction all around.

Jon's look and body language of "Oh fuck" was exactly right.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:10 PM on May 31, 2015 [7 favorites]


also i didn't realize how attached i was to tormund's gingery allure until he almost died of zombsicle
posted by poffin boffin at 7:10 PM on May 31, 2015 [14 favorites]


Or I could just wave my arms around and yell "DID YOU SEE THAT" repeatedly.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:11 PM on May 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


EW: "It was three to four weeks of shooting for a sequence that should add up to [more than] 20 minutes,” Harington said. “We shot less than a minute a day! It’s so CGI-heavy it’s unlike anything I’ve ever done on Thrones. I’ve always been proud of the way Thrones doesn’t go overboard with special effects, but in this sequence they had to. I think it’s going to be spectacular.”

...

“Every fight I would shoot three times,” Harington said. “First against a man in a [greenscreen-projectable suit], the second with man who’s not in a green suit, but has full-on makeup to look like a dead person, and the third time I would just fight [without an oppoent, striking open air]. It gave them the option of using whichever way looked the best. [The Battle of Castle Black in] episode 9 last year was the hardest thing I’ve done. This was twice as hard as that. It was exhausting.”

The sequence required about 400 extras and 50 stuntmen. Harington pointed out the production was also aided by having a bigger budget for the battle scene than in previous seasons..."

posted by zarq at 7:11 PM on May 31, 2015 [6 favorites]


OKAY EVERYTHING ELSE ASIDE there was someone in the credits listed as "hairstylist (dragon)" and that is everything to me now

I know, Cersei's hair was crazy this episode.
posted by gatorae at 7:13 PM on May 31, 2015 [15 favorites]


I kept waiting for the hooded guy in the last boat to just zombify or something even though I knew it would be stupid. Argh.
posted by lydhre at 7:16 PM on May 31, 2015 [5 favorites]


We need some dragons over in Westeros STAT.

Alternatively, Dany can build the economy in Meereen by starting some dragonglass and Valyrian steel production, assuming that Tyrion can figure out how to make them.
posted by damayanti at 7:18 PM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


Also I am super annoyed that an awesome female character was defeated by fucking zombabies. STAB THOSE LITTLE FUCKERS WHAT THE FUCK.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:18 PM on May 31, 2015 [29 favorites]


I kept waiting for the hooded guy in the last boat to just zombify or something even though I knew it would be stupid. Argh.

Some speculation online (yes I'm at multiple GoT discussion threads) that it's Coldhands.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


poffin boffin: OKAY EVERYTHING ELSE ASIDE there was someone in the credits listed as "hairstylist (dragon)" and that is everything to me now

IMDb says there are two hair stylists in the makeup department for "Dragon" and one for "Wolf." ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
posted by zarq at 7:20 PM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


I would rather be taken down by a zomb-giant than a pack of zom-babies. Creepy children, eugh!
posted by Windigo at 7:20 PM on May 31, 2015


Also I am super annoyed that an awesome female character was defeated by fucking zombabies. STAB THOSE LITTLE FUCKERS WHAT THE FUCK.


Well, of course, it's because she's a ~~mother~~ and ~~irony~~.

The minute she put the kids on the boat, my husband went, "OK, how's she going to die?"
posted by damayanti at 7:20 PM on May 31, 2015 [12 favorites]


like oh okay you are a badass wildling warrior lady who loves your kids, that's fine, but for fuck's sake why does that mean you would just stand there sniveling and let gross dead icebabies slaughter you. ugh. YOU HACK THEIR FUCKING NASTY LITTLE HEADS OFF WOMAN.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:22 PM on May 31, 2015 [9 favorites]


I also arghhhed at Sam essentially giving Olly permission to shank Jon. Way to go, Sam, I know you mean well.
posted by lydhre at 7:24 PM on May 31, 2015 [10 favorites]


I felt like there were a lot of Lord of the Rings-ish (movie) elements to this episode. As soon as the female leader put her kids in the boat, I thought of the mother from The Two Towers who put her kids on the horse to escape the wild men in Rohan (and therefore I immediately knew she would die). The giant stomping on the wights looked exactly like an Ent stomping on orcs. Sailing away on the last boat at the end reminded me of the beginning of Fellowship of the Ring when they escaped from the Ringwraiths, with the exact same ominous stare over the water. The wights looked like those fucking ghost-soldiers sweeping across the battlefield in Return of the King (alternatively, they reminded me of the fast zombies from World War Z). I'm sure there was more but I found it really disconcerting.

At least now it's clear why the Wall is 700 feet tall.
posted by gatorae at 7:33 PM on May 31, 2015 [5 favorites]


The ice babies were so creepy, though! As great as the fight staging was, I was a little disappointed at the corny skeleton warriors -- and then those evil Sadako fuckers showed up.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 7:33 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


That was amazing. I posted my thoughts on the battle in the other thread. That fighting was so much better than the other fighting that they can't even be compared.

In terms of book -vs- show I thought the Tyrion/Dany scene was superb and shows exactly why what GRRM has been doing is such a misstep. This is what we want to see, not Tyrion Whining On A Boat and then After A Brief Interlude Whining on a Completely Different Boat.

Move your plot forward, GRRM. Please.
posted by Justinian at 7:36 PM on May 31, 2015 [11 favorites]


Finally, a season 5 episode that sounds like it's worth watching! This should be good.
posted by clockzero at 7:36 PM on May 31, 2015


The skeletons are like the cannon fodder and the ice dudes are the cannons I guess.
posted by Justinian at 7:37 PM on May 31, 2015


White Walkers showed up! Even their King! and he did a lot of recruiting.

I did kinda laugh at the Wildings making for the boats though. Suddenly, it all became so clear!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:39 PM on May 31, 2015 [5 favorites]


I feel like there was one gigantic idiot ball in this episode though - wouldn't the wildlings be pretty intimately familiar with the zombie's fire vulnerability? But Wun Wun is the only one who things to pick up something burning and hit zombies with it? OK...

At least we know in the show universe that Valyrian steel is as advertised.

Lots and lots of dragonglass on the volcanic island of Dragonstone, so don't worry about losing those daggers unless more idiot ball happens.
posted by LionIndex at 7:40 PM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


I also arghhhed at Sam essentially giving Olly permission to shank Jon. Way to go, Sam, I know you mean well.

Yeah, I caught that. You could almost see the STAB STABBITY STAB STAB going on in Olly's head while Sam was talking.

No, Olly, that's not what I meant!
posted by Justinian at 7:41 PM on May 31, 2015 [5 favorites]


Did you also catch the last comment Sam made to Olly, about how Jon "always manages to come back", or something? That made me snort, given the ending of ADwD/theories of whats to come.
posted by gatorae at 7:44 PM on May 31, 2015 [8 favorites]


Does everyone get the little "making of" blurb that comes after the show on HBO Now? Interesting that they call the head White Walker "Night King". In the books, that's a certain specific guy.
posted by LionIndex at 7:45 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


It's an old Lord Commander of the Night's Watch or something I think? It's been a while.
posted by Justinian at 7:48 PM on May 31, 2015


HBOGO kept freezing up for us in the Hardhome sequence, and on every freeze frame, Jon was doing something dynamic, and I couldn't help from exclaiming, "Kit Harington, action star!"
posted by ocherdraco at 7:50 PM on May 31, 2015 [9 favorites]


They sure did talk about "dragon glass" being the only thing that could stop the white walkers a lot. And then Jon, stops one with his sword. This is far fetched but are they setting him up as being the Dragon?
posted by pearlybob at 7:51 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, I don't know if they're intending him to be that guy, or if that's just a name they're calling him, but he was the 13th commander of the Watch, took a white walker-ish woman as a bride, etc.
posted by LionIndex at 7:51 PM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


They sure did talk about "dragon glass" being the only thing that could stop the white walkers a lot. And then Jon, stops one with his sword. This is far fetched but are they setting him up as being the Dragon?

There's also been talk, but maybe not in a long time on the show, about "dragonsteel" killing the walkers, and the going theory has generally been that dragonsteel is Valyrian steel. I don't know that it means much more than that.
posted by LionIndex at 7:53 PM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


Also, since it appears that Valyrian steel is so effective, and it's hard to make effective weapons from obsidian, that just set up motivation for someone, fucking anyone, to finally, FINALLY explore old Valyria.
posted by codacorolla at 7:53 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also, since it appears that Valyrian steel is so effective, and it's hard to make effective weapons from obsidian, that just set up motivation for someone, fucking anyone, to finally, FINALLY explore old Valyria

Who? That's down in Essos and no one gives a shit what's happening at or above the Wall. It's not a matter of no one knowing the White Walkers are there, but rather than no one believes in them at all. With the arrival of Winter, there's little chance of communicating anything to the South.

Things are so screwed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:09 PM on May 31, 2015


One thing that never clicked for me in the books, because GRRM meandered so much in getting there, is that the Theocratic government in King's Landing is going to have to take a tack on the White Walkers at some point. The High Sparrow is being set up as a pretty clear villain, but I have to imagine that he has more sense than the variety of idiots who've held the high council positions have ever had.

Who? That's down in Essos and no one gives a shit what's happening at or above the Wall. It's not a matter of no one knowing the White Walkers are there, but rather than no one believes in them at all. With the arrival of Winter, there's little chance of communicating anything to the South.

Well, Daeny is presumably going to get to Westeros at some point, and Tyrion is presumably going to be at her side. When they get there (since Daeny is going to waste time fucking up in Mereen) things will likely have gone from bad to even badder. It doesn't take a lot of imagination to connect the dots with that one. Especially since Tyrion demonstrably does give a shit about the North, which is probably why Varys groomed him and selected him to be his pawn. I would imagine that things get far, far worse before anyone does anything proactive against the white walker threat, but it's really hard to imagine the show and the book setting up "magical land of magic mystery with secrets that exist from the last time white walkers were a threat" and then doing nothing with it. The scene with Longclaw sets up that Valyrian steel is important, and guess where Valyrian steel comes from?
posted by codacorolla at 8:18 PM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


I like how Sansa/Sophie Turner's height is yet another tool in her growing arsenal.
posted by porpoise at 8:26 PM on May 31, 2015 [11 favorites]


I like how Sansa/Sophie Turner's height is yet another tool in her growing arsenal.

What is this a reference to?
posted by andoatnp at 8:33 PM on May 31, 2015


I hope I find something bad to say about this later because so far it sounds like a great episode.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:34 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


What is this a reference to?

When she's demanding info from Theon, she towers over him.
posted by LionIndex at 8:36 PM on May 31, 2015 [5 favorites]


She's also so much taller than Littlefinger in previous few eps that it kinda makes it a bit harder for him to put the mack on her, unlike that kiss amidst the snow in the Eyre.
posted by porpoise at 8:39 PM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


Google suggests she is the same height as Allen and roughly Gillen, so either the actors are lying about their height on Google so they dont seem short (which isnt unheard of) or Turner is wearing heels under her costume to emphasize her height.
posted by Justinian at 8:43 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm sorry to let everyone down, but GoT has two filming units: Dragon and Wolf. So the Dragon hairstylist is just a regular hairstylist who is with the rest of the Dragon group.
posted by Ian A.T. at 8:51 PM on May 31, 2015 [19 favorites]


Turner is still growing, and male actors are always given a bump on their height. Sylvester Stallone was at UBC VGH for something, once, and I overheard a couple of nurses saying, "He's such a little bird in person! I had no idea!"

Of course, framing and standing on boxes are par since Vaudeville times.
posted by porpoise at 8:51 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]




Man I really felt like I watched a totally different show from so many of you! I hated that episode. The writing was terrible, straight up boring all the way through! You get Tyrion and Daenerys together and THAT'S the conversation they have?? It was so flat, not a smart or funny line in it, nothing to develop any chemistry between the characters. (Also Tyrion: "Whomever Mormont was..." - ugh writers get an editor. Tyrion using pompously bad grammar is unforgivable!)

Also had problems with the direction--the battle scene jumped all over the place. First the sound of an avalanche, then the wights are suddenly all right there; the white walkers are up on the crest of a hill and then seconds later one is inside the burning building; the closing-the-gate bit was so fractured you couldn't tell who was on which side of it and who all was getting closed out (like before they closed the gate did we even know there were still a ton of wildlings outside of it? I guess they couldn't all fit in Hardhome but that was just incoherent).

And two basically identical scenes with Cersei refusing to confess and being denied water?

I didn't think anything about that episode moved nearly as well as some of the others have done this season. I do love how the plot was advanced in all locations, love that Jon Snow got to see the magnitude of the threat firsthand, love the reveal about valyrian steel. (And that was an amazing fight.) But it felt like all the energy of the show was poured into the effects and nothing was left for smart dialogue or good storytelling flow.
posted by torticat at 9:01 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


So the Dragon hairstylist is just a regular hairstylist who is with the rest of the Dragon group.

RUINER STOP RUINING
posted by poffin boffin at 9:02 PM on May 31, 2015 [12 favorites]


Also I am super annoyed that an awesome female character was defeated by fucking zombabies. STAB THOSE LITTLE FUCKERS WHAT THE FUCK.

Also that. :(
posted by torticat at 9:02 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


either the actors are lying about their height on Google so they dont seem short

A startling number of celebrities go to my gym where we are all in trainers of relatively equal heighted soles and tl;dr they're all hilariously obvious wee elfin liars.
posted by poffin boffin at 9:03 PM on May 31, 2015 [14 favorites]


Paul Newman and Tom Cruise are/were also notably short (read: actually pretty average height but shorter than Hollywood standard, especially around statuesque leading ladies.) I think the same is true of a lot of actors, like Michael J. Fox, but because of the roles they took nobody ever made a deal out of it, because being short is only a big deal if you're also supposed to be imposing, I guess? Another great reason Dinklage is out there being awesome.

Something that was unclear, because the language was intentionally obtuse and the stream kept freeing up and sound kept dropping out - is the "gambler" an insurance salesman? What's going on there?

Anyway, so, so, so much to love here. I've been worried about how the could possibly make Cersei have an ounce of humanity and audience sympathy by the time the Walk comes around, and thought her defiance in the face of the Silent Sister before desperately licking the water off the floor did a lot to assuage my fears there.

Good to know Kevan is back and in charge.

Sansa is putting wheels in motion, doing what she can, and it's great to see.

DANY AND TYRION DANY AND TYRION DANY AND TYRION! I squeed several times.

And the final third... What it reminded me of, more than anything, was the Six Feet Under episode "That's My Dog," where a seemingly normal episode with normal beats and rhythms got figuratively and literally hijacked by an invading evil that we had to spend the rest of the episode with. The battle was so magnificent that I thought for sure that Neil Marshall must have directed it, but no! Kudos to the outstanding newcomer!
posted by Navelgazer at 9:04 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


To be honest I only really cared if the Giant got away okay


I was so worried for a zomgiant tho.
posted by The Whelk at 9:04 PM on May 31, 2015 [9 favorites]


(I've been in groups of actors and when I'M a head taller then everyone you're clearly in a field of very attractive hobbits)
posted by The Whelk at 9:06 PM on May 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


I certainly am full of "Well actually"s tonight, but the mother who puts her kids on the horse at the beginning of The Two Towers is later reunited with her kids at Helm's Deep: 1, 2
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:06 PM on May 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


The writing was terrible, straight up boring all the way through! You get Tyrion and Daenerys together and THAT'S the conversation they have?? It was so flat, not a smart or funny line in it, nothing to develop any chemistry between the characters.

Whaaa? They bonded over Jorah, fathers and being children of terrible men.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:08 PM on May 31, 2015 [7 favorites]


So, will Jorah win the hearts and minds of Meereen at the Grand Battle and take Ser Barristan's role ruling over the city once Dany exits?
posted by Navelgazer at 9:09 PM on May 31, 2015


Maybe if he doesn't end up as dragon food.
posted by LionIndex at 9:10 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I wish the wights were ungainly, relentless, SLOW things. it's so tiresome for everyone to be "zombies on speed time",

and while I like the ice ninja white walker, the books' description would have been SOOOO much better.....See this description of a walker taken verbatim from GoT the source.

A shadow emerged from the dark of the wood. It stood in front of Royce. Tall, it was, and gaunt and hard as old bones, with flesh pale as milk. Its armor seemed to change color as it moved; here it was white as new-fallen snow, there black as shadow, everywhere dappled with the deep grey-green of the trees. The patterns ran like moonlight on water with every step it took.

Will heard the breath go out of Ser Waymar Royce in a long hiss. “Come no farther,” the lordling warned. His voice cracked like a boy’s. He threw the long sable cloak back over his shoulders, to free his arms for battle, and took his sword in both hands. The wind had stopped. It was very cold.

The Other slid forward on silent feet. In its hand was a longsword like none that Will had ever seen. No human metal had gone into the forging of that blade. It was alive with moonlight, translucent, a shard of crystal so thin that it seemed almost to vanish when seen edge-on. There was a faint blue shimmer to the thing, a ghost-light that played around its edges, and somehow Will knew it was sharper than any razor.

Ser Waymar met him bravely. “Dance with me then.” He lifted his sword high over his head, defiant. His hands trembled from the weight of it, or perhaps from the cold. Yet in that moment, Will thought, he was a boy no longer, but a man of the Night’s Watch.

The Other halted. Will saw its eyes; blue, deeper and bluer than any human eyes, a blue that burned like ice. They fixed on the longsword trembling on high, watched the moonlight running cold along the metal. For a heartbeat he dared to hope.

They emerged silently from the shadows, twins to the first. Three of them . . . four . . . five . . . Ser Waymar may have felt the cold that came with them, but he never saw them, never heard them. Will had to call out. It was his duty. And his death, if he did. He shivered, and hugged the tree, and kept the silence.

The pale sword came shivering through the air.......

posted by lalochezia at 9:11 PM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


So pleased to see Wun Wun, and he even spoke a bit of the Old Tongue. I assume they got DJP to do that, even though he's been saying for ages that he's offered and they hadn't taken him up on it.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 9:11 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


the wrights are basically modern zombies and that's fine but I do like how regal and alien the White Walkers are, they have an economy of movement and grace that befits strange otherwordly beings.
posted by The Whelk at 9:13 PM on May 31, 2015 [7 favorites]


(It's not AS strange and eerie as the books but there's an element there and I like that)
posted by The Whelk at 9:14 PM on May 31, 2015


I too thought the dialogue between Tyrion and Daenerys was rather flat.

and while I like the ice ninja white walker, the books' description would have been SOOOO much better.....See this description of a walker taken verbatim from GoT the source.

That description's mighty poetic and all, but I'm not sure how it would actually translate visually. For example, the impossibly thin sword sounds like it would be cool, but visually it would probably end up looking pretty cheesy, like an old video game where they didn't have enough polygons to spare to give the sword depth.
posted by Pyry at 9:16 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Whaaa? They bonded over Jorah, fathers and being children of terrible men.

I know. It felt to me like the content was there but there was no spark to it at all. Same with Tyrion's advice about Mormont, like that should have been a great speech--so much on the line, and this is Tyrion's forte!--but it felt just flat.

I see now though that Benioff & Weiss wrote the ep, so maybe my head just wasn't in it tonight. My husband and son felt the same way though. I don't know! [shrug]
posted by torticat at 9:18 PM on May 31, 2015


Also, too "light sabre" and too "sharp samurai sword" (ie., Equilibrium, Bales slicing some dude's face off and it takes a couple of seconds before the face actually slides off).

I'm thinking that a cinematic vorpal scene is better described as monofilament scenes where people just fall apart.
posted by porpoise at 9:20 PM on May 31, 2015


They sure did talk about "dragon glass" being the only thing that could stop the white walkers a lot. And then Jon, stops one with his sword. This is far fetched but are they setting him up as being the Dragon?

Dragon glass and dragon steel - aka Valyrian Steel, which is what Longclaw is made of. Lighter and stronger than normal steel, it is also magically effective against the Walkers. Speaking of which, I was a little surprised that the Walker fighting Jon wasn't a little more careful once it realized it wasn't up against a normal steel blade.

Jon is not the Dragon (I think that's a reference to another overly long fantasy epic), but there have been tons of hints that he's Azor Ahai/the Prince who Was Promised, the one that Melisandre is going on about. Assuming, of course, that it will be one person.
posted by nubs at 9:23 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


I thought the Dany/Tyrion scene was not exactly like a rock and a hard place meeting, but two rocks begrudgingly trying to figure out what to do 0 it was one long negotiation of sheer Egos, cause that's kind of the only thing they really have to hit each other with.
posted by The Whelk at 9:29 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also loved: the look on Jon Snow's face just after Tormund smashed Rattleshirt about eight more times after he was surely already dead.
posted by torticat at 9:29 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


So, will Jorah win the hearts and minds of Meereen at the Grand Battle and take Ser Barristan's role ruling over the city once Dany exits?

All of the ponderous glances at his spreading Grayscale, his efforts to get back into Mereen, and the fact that there's a plague scheduled in book time makes me believe he's going to be the Typhoid Marty that gets Daeny's collapsing empire kicked off.

Maybe that's a little too on the nose, however.
posted by codacorolla at 9:32 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Speaking of which, I was a little surprised that the Walker fighting Jon wasn't a little more careful once it realized it wasn't up against a normal steel blade.

It's been 8000 years; who knows if the WWs are actually immortal-ish so that they'd remember that Valyrian steel messes them up, or if they have a written record (equivalent to Castle Black's library) of how best to deal with pesky warmblooded things.

Jon is not the Dragon (I think that's a reference to another overly long fantasy epic)

I think the assertion was about the whole "the dragon has three heads" thing.
posted by LionIndex at 9:33 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Part of why I loved the Dany/Tyrion stuff is because I think we've all known forever that those two would get along famously.
posted by Navelgazer at 9:34 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I see Jorah as the guy that tastes the poison at the fighting pits.
posted by quadbonus at 9:35 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm surprised Tyrion didn't ask to see the dragons. I mean, I would have.
posted by Pyry at 9:36 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Didn't he and Jorah (?) already see them flying across the sky?
posted by porpoise at 9:37 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I loved this episode except the fight - though I think part of that is I was hoping the woman would be Valla. At least this means no slavery probably though!
posted by corb at 9:38 PM on May 31, 2015


I guess he's assuming that Dany has full control over teh dragoons.

Fatal misunderstanding.
posted by porpoise at 9:39 PM on May 31, 2015


Also had problems with the direction--the battle scene jumped all over the place.

For me, I had a really hard time figuring out the "geography" of the battle, and where everything was in relation to everything else: the water, the house the elders met in, and most especially the gate. I spent the first half of the fight trying to get a handle on where the gate was and who was on which side of it.
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:40 PM on May 31, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Speaking of which, I was a little surprised that the Walker fighting Jon wasn't a little more careful once it realized it wasn't up against a normal steel blade. "

No time, there were only about two or three moves once realized he had a chance and got his second wind.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:40 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, like the man to whom "These Boots Were Made For Walking" is addressed, that White Walker didn't have time to learn.
posted by Pope Guilty at 9:44 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


The ice king's "come at me bro"/"well what is it" gesture / dead raising was also pretty good. But Jon Snow & co were surprisingly unconcerned about actually rowing away-- in the final shot their boat was only like fifteen feet away from shore.
posted by Pyry at 9:46 PM on May 31, 2015 [7 favorites]


Does this mean the dead can't touch sea water? If so, Pyke is sounding like the new place to be.
posted by corb at 9:49 PM on May 31, 2015 [5 favorites]


That's what happened to Gendry. He's only about a quarter mile from where he started.
posted by Justinian at 9:51 PM on May 31, 2015 [15 favorites]


I think that there were dead in the water with no problem, a boat rowed by 7 strong people just moves faster than most humans can swim, much less a barely sentient animate corpse. I would imagine that given preparation, the walkers are smart enough to transport their army across seas.

One thing the show hasn't touched on much is just how many dead bodies there are laying around after the war. That's something Feast (I enjoyed the shout out the title got in this ep, btw) makes abundantly clear with Brienne's endless Westeros wandering. The Others have their army served up on a silver platter, essentially.

Also, the line about Daeny being the last Targaeryn was funny, and I nearly said "Yeah, except for all of the other ones!" out loud, but caught myself because I watch with a bunch of show only people.
posted by codacorolla at 9:58 PM on May 31, 2015 [7 favorites]


Really maybe they could try and spread out the development and plot from episode to episode, instead of cramming it all in one and leaving another empty.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 10:04 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Speaking of Brienne: Who besides her and Jon Snow do we know has a weapon of Valyrian steel?

Joffrey's was buried with him, right?
posted by torticat at 10:09 PM on May 31, 2015 [2 favorites]


why couldn't the just eagles fly them right to mt doom though
posted by poffin boffin at 10:10 PM on May 31, 2015 [10 favorites]


Okay, so, that was a thing that happened. I can see why people feel like the Danerys/Tyrion scene fell a bit flat -- after all that seasons-long buildup, that? Then again, the show has managed to give us Danerys and Tyrion having a conversation, which is more than GRRM has managed yet.

Overly-telegraphed Olly backstabbing was overly telegraphed. It makes narrative sense but knowing what's coming, particularly, I feel like I'm being smacked in the face over. and. over. again.

On the plus side, badass Sansa is badass. Doesn't make up for the previous clumsiness and crappiness of that plotline, but I was happy to see her stare down Theon and get something out of him, at least.

As much catharsis as we get from watching bad things happen to Cersei, two identical torture scenes was a bit much. Then again this show does love its torture..
posted by Alterscape at 10:10 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


Speaking of Brienne: Who besides her and Jon Snow do we know has a weapon of Valyrian steel?

TO THE WIKI WE MUST GO


- Blackfyre, the ancestral sword of House Targaryen, once wielded by Aegon the Conqueror, lost during The Battle Of The Red Grass Field

- Dark Sister, a longsword of House Targaryen, held by Visenya Targaryen, lost during the Battle Of The Red Grass Field.

- Ice, the ancestral greatsword of House Stark. Captured by House Lannister when Eddard Stark was taken prisoner, and used by Ilyn Payne to behead Lord Stark at Joffrey Baratheon's command.

After the Red Wedding and defeat of House Stark,Tywin Lannister had it melted down into two smaller longswords, one gifted to his son, Jaime, the other to his grandson, Joffrey Baratheon.

- Oathkeeper, the first longsword made from Ice. Given by Jaime Lannister to Brienne of Tarth.

- Widow's Wail, the second longsword made from Ice. Given to Joffrey Baratheon as a wedding gift, now owned by Tommen Baratheon.

-Longclaw, a bastard-sword of House Mormont, given by Jeor Mormont to Jon Snow.

-Brightroar, the ancestral sword of House Lannister, lost by Tommen II Lanister when he travelled to Valyria.

-Heartsbane, the ancestral sword of House Tarly.

-Lady Forlorn, the ancestral sword of House Corbray.

-A dagger wielded by an assassin who attempts to kill Bran Stark with it. It previously belonged to Petyr Baelish, but he claims he lost it in a bet to Tyrion Lannister. However, the ownership of the dagger when it was used by the assassin is never firmly established in the TV series.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:17 PM on May 31, 2015 [15 favorites]


Ah THANKS poffin!

I did have an association of VS with Littlefinger but couldn't place it. Do the books say where the dagger ended up? I don't think so.

So... the others in that list that are interesting are Tommen's sword (I totally thought Joffrey was buried with a sword, but maybe they put a placeholder in there?) and the one belonging to House Tarly (!!).

In any case Brienne is set up to be a kickass bodyguard for the Wardenness of the North.
posted by torticat at 10:26 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


New motto: It is all the same to the Many-Faced God.
posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 10:27 PM on May 31, 2015 [12 favorites]


Re: Essos and steel...well, Gerion Lannister has never been PROVEN to be dead...
posted by rednikki at 10:56 PM on May 31, 2015 [1 favorite]


I spent the whole fight clutching my husband's hand and screaming "I HATE NOT KNOWING WHAT HAPPENS!!"
posted by KathrynT at 11:14 PM on May 31, 2015 [8 favorites]


New motto: It is all the same to the Many-Faced God.

Wouldn't the god of death be pretty fucking pissed off at the white walkers for stealing his due and holding it in the impound lot of magical ice thralldom, to work an ungainly metaphor?
posted by clockzero at 11:56 PM on May 31, 2015 [3 favorites]


I mean, you might be inclined to think that the white walkers and the god of death would be on good terms, what with their common interests and whatnot, but actually they're playing diametrically opposed games.

Or maybe you're a normal person and you're not actually inclined to think about whether or not frosty sidhe and fictional (potentially double-fictional?) death deities would be BFFS at 3 in the morning, either way is good
posted by clockzero at 12:00 AM on June 1, 2015 [6 favorites]


Valyrian steel at House Tarly is interesting! Sam's dad has been alluded to a few times this season and there's some speculation that Randall Tarly is being cast for next season. Maybe Jon will dispatch Sam to get Heartsbane instead of sending him to the Citadel, which has not been telegraphed at all.
posted by painquale at 1:19 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


And it's not in that list, but Dawn, the ancestral sword of House Dayne, has mysterious origins and might be Valyrian steel.
posted by painquale at 1:24 AM on June 1, 2015


The location of Dawn was lost when Ashara Dayne jumped from Starfall, wasn't it?
posted by Justinian at 1:55 AM on June 1, 2015


I'm not sure. The westeros.org wiki page for Dawn has a quote of Martin's saying that Dawn is at Starfall.
posted by painquale at 4:13 AM on June 1, 2015


Ned returned Dawn to the Daynes after killing whatsit at the tower of spoilers
posted by coriolisdave at 4:55 AM on June 1, 2015 [9 favorites]


I thought (did a bit of reading about Ashara last night) that Dawn had some mysterious properties but was NOT Valyrian?

Also read (belatedly) the books only thread--funny the same questions are coming up there as here. But Justinian, you thought the direction of this episode was better than the preceding... really? Just the battle scene, or the whole thing? I don't know, I thought that episode was so fragmented.
posted by torticat at 5:15 AM on June 1, 2015


Yeah, I thought the entire ep was clearly the best they've done all season with virtually no missteps. Ok, Jorah's gladiator scene wasn't particularly enthralling but it was just set up.

I don't think I'm alone, for example in the AV club for Experts recap Myles calls it the best episode of the series to date (note, not the best episode of the season... the series). That may be going a little far but I'd certainly rank it up there. Definitely top 5.
posted by Justinian at 5:20 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think this episode benefits from having a sense of culmination form proceeding episodes. After all, it was written and directed by the same people as last episode. But this time, there's more emotional pay off with Arya actually working, Cersei in chains, Tyrion and Daenerys talking and the big battle scene. We got to see how high the stakes are, as the "heroes" start to come into their own.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:23 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


...I should say, I've really liked how some of the other episodes this seasons have stayed in one location at a time and told the story there at length--like I really enjoyed, unlike a lot of viewers apparently, the time spent last week with Sam and Gilly. It hasn't felt rushed yet has advanced the plot. Last night's episode, I thought jumped back and forth too much and then settled at Hardhome for a battle that was hard to follow--agree with Ian A.T. that the geography there wasn't laid out well at all.
posted by torticat at 5:24 AM on June 1, 2015


I read up a bit on Dawn as well; it's supposedly made from the core of a meteorite, which plays a big role in House Dayne's mythology - their castle, Starfall, is supposedly built where the meteor landed.
posted by LionIndex at 5:24 AM on June 1, 2015


Also read (belatedly) the books only thread

Oops, show-only, obviously. Too late for edit.

as the "heroes" start to come into their own.

That's definitely going on and very fun. Guess I just hoped for more. That whole thing about the wheel that Dany and Tyrion talked about? Makes no sense at all. That was the climax of that conversation; and given Daenerys's steel and Tyrion's wit, it should have been better.

One thing I am really enjoying is watching some of these actors grow into their roles. Sam is great (his speech last week at Aemon's wake was flawlessly delivered). Sansa, Jon Snow, and Daenerys too--they are all doing so much with the material given to them.
posted by torticat at 5:45 AM on June 1, 2015


That whole thing about the wheel that Dany and Tyrion talked about? Makes no sense at all.

Really? I thought it was pretty obvious that Daenerys intends to completely smash the way the ruling class operates. To her, it doesn't matter which House is on time, they're all the same. But that's also where she's being extremely naive. Clearly there is a difference between Lannister and Stark, etc etc
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:50 AM on June 1, 2015 [5 favorites]


Sam needs to get his speechifyin' to ollie. Upon the members of the night's watch complaining about the mission to rescue wildlings.......again, from the books:

"Thousands of enemies. Thousands of wildlings. "

Thousands of people, Jon thought. Men, women, children. Anger rose inside him, but when he spoke his voice was quiet and cold. "Are you so blind, or is it that you do not wish to see? What do you think will happen when all these enemies are dead?"

Above the door the raven muttered, "Dead, dead, dead. "

"Let me tell you what will happen," Jon said. "The dead will rise again, in their hundreds and their thousands. They will rise as wights, with black hands and pale blue eyes, and they will come for us. " He pushed himself to his feet, the fingers of his sword hand opening and closing. "You have my leave to go."


posted by lalochezia at 5:55 AM on June 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


Also, AV club link above is borked. Here's the correct link
posted by lalochezia at 6:01 AM on June 1, 2015


Dawn is at least a +2 sword, so it's gonna take care of negative energy beings no problem
posted by Iridic at 6:03 AM on June 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


he's going to be the Typhoid Marty that gets Daeny's collapsing empire kicked off.

man if they go for widespread crusty skin death instead of widespread firey poop death then all of our poopfighting in the last thread will have been FOR NOTHING
posted by poffin boffin at 6:12 AM on June 1, 2015 [11 favorites]


Sam needs to get his speechifyin' to ollie. Upon the members of the night's watch complaining about the mission to rescue wildlings.......again, from the books:

The people in the story really get that as a reason. Raising the dead, that's impossible right? All of this is impossible, especially when place against the reality the Wildings, whom the watch has fought for centuries and who they recently battled. Sure, it's irrational and kinda stupid, but hello humanity, right?

Now that so many of them have seen the Walkers and freshly made wights in action, this rationale should die a quick death. But with Thorne and the others back at Castle Black not having seen this..well, it might take a little more time.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:25 AM on June 1, 2015


I thought it was pretty obvious that Daenerys intends to completely smash the way the ruling class operates.

Well yeah! But the ruling families as spokes in a wheel? It's the metaphor I have a problem with. Spokes don't so much change the direction of the wheel. And there have been huge shifts in direction, over the course of the story, according to who has power in King's Landing. One shift is going on even while this conversation between Tyrion and Daenerys is taking place!

What's the major difference between stopping the wheel and smashing the wheel? It just seems like lazy writing to me. A labored metaphor that doesn't make any sense.

But what do I know? Maybe Dany plans to crush ALL the families? And Tyrion is there to talk her into a more pragmatic/diplomatic approach? Doesn't seem like the way the story is going, dramatically speaking, but maybe Daenerys still has a lot to learn?
posted by torticat at 6:25 AM on June 1, 2015


The battle was a lot of fun, even if, yeah, the sense of where stuff was was pretty bad. It looked like the wights could have just taken the docks, cutting everyone off, and then turned on the stockade in unison with the whole drop down the cliff trick. Palette-swapped Darth Maul may not be the best general. Or maybe the White Walkers are pretty cocky and complacent.

Overall I enjoyed the fight a lot. All I ask is ONE fun/clever thing in an action scene and I'll forgive a lot. Wun Wun stomping on wights paid for the scene, so Jon's moment of badass was extra. Dramatically I thought it was handled well, I'm glad they used silence and didn't oversell Jon's killing strike. Maybe they just suck at making normal sword fights interesting.
posted by nom de poop at 6:36 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


That review is great. "And now our Mance Truther watch is ended."
posted by corb at 6:41 AM on June 1, 2015 [8 favorites]


I didn't see the spokes so much changing the direction of the wheel. It's more, the wheel turns, different spokes end up in the top position, but the overall wheel never changes. Dany plans to make it so that there is no top position to squabble over.
posted by LionIndex at 6:42 AM on June 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


What's the major difference between stopping the wheel and smashing the wheel? It just seems like lazy writing to me. A labored metaphor that doesn't make any sense.

Agreed and points out how naive Daenerys is, which Tyrion noted. Why does she want to rule Westeros? Better yet, how can she rule Westeros if she has no idea what goes on there? She's making bold pronouncements that are kinda ridiculous.

I don't know if it's lazy writing or foreshadowing about Daenerys being a bit insane herself, as her family often is. Time will tell. It's great that she wants to free slaves, but that's less of an issue in Westeros though it still obviously has major inequalities. So what does she hope to do in Westeros, who is she freeing it from? Would she really do a better job than Stannis? How does she plan to deal with the Iron Bank? Would she demand that the stubborn Northerners bend the knee? And what about Dorne, which has never bowed and been defeated, even by the Targaryens? She really doesn't understand what she's getting into.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:46 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


But how can she, when she clearly believes she has a right to the throne? That's the part that read the most hollow. All I can think it means is that maybe she plans on introducing protection for the smallfolk.
posted by corb at 6:46 AM on June 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


What's the major difference between stopping the wheel and smashing the wheel?

Stopping the wheel just keeps whichever spoke is on top, well, on top. That's Tyrion's point - that there will always be select few ruling the many, regardless of who "wins". What Dany wants to do is change the system entirely so there are no oligarchs. Which sounds, of course, like a pipe dream but she's got a lot to learn about the reality of their world.
posted by lydhre at 6:47 AM on June 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


Eh, I think she's just young and idealistic and therefore well intentioned but lamentably unrealistic about how beneficial change can be effected in a way that society continues functioning. She reminds me of a lot of earnest tumblr kids who honestly believe that if a change.org petition gets a certain number of signatures, the proposal will immediately become law.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:48 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


The Wheel of Fortune isn't just a game show: it's an ancient metaphor. The wheel is fixed in place and Lady Fortune is turning it. That the spokes don't control anything about the process is precisely the point; fortune places them in the position that they find themselves in, whether it be high or low.
posted by mayhap at 6:48 AM on June 1, 2015 [10 favorites]


On the other hand I guess she really does have irrefutable historical evidence that one person (ok 3 people) with three dragons can in fact conquer all of westeros and have its lords and ladies bend the knee.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:50 AM on June 1, 2015 [6 favorites]


but thus far I don't think there's been a lot of canon discussion about the chaos that comes with a regime change like that. it would be interesting to know if that was touched on in those books jorah gave her as a wedding present. or if she even still has them.

i bet tyrion would like talking to her about those books.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:52 AM on June 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


No way Dawn is a mere +2. That one's gotta be a Holy Avenger (+5 or +3, depending on your edition).

But this line of comparison could be very productive, I suspect. Besides learning that Valyrian steel has the undeadbane feature, in this episode we watch as:
- Jon gains another level of paladin, after critting an Other with a divine smite
- Arya skills up in disguise, deception, perception, and a few other rogue-y things
- Sansa rolls high on an insight check, then wins an intimidation (Cha) contest against Theek
- Tyrion likewise rolls high on his persuasion check
- Cersei makes a will (Wis) save against confession, but perhaps fails a Con save against dehydration
- Qyburn continues work on his flesh golem

Common shorthand for the showrunners is "D&D". Coincidence? I think not.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 6:56 AM on June 1, 2015 [46 favorites]


I absolutely love that in the show-only thread, someone is speculating that Ollie is going to do "something rash once the surviving wildlings/crows return to the wall, like killing the guy with the red beard."

Oh no, not Tormund!!
posted by painquale at 6:56 AM on June 1, 2015 [15 favorites]


Nutmeg, I can't even deal with how much delight your D&D recap gives me. I would read D&D recaps of GOT episodes ALL DAY LONG.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:00 AM on June 1, 2015 [7 favorites]


I don't think we know enough about either Valyrian steel or about Dawn to say for certain that Dawn isn't Valyrian steel. Maybe the ore for Dawn came from a meteorite and it was forged and tempered using Valyrian methods, or something like that.
posted by painquale at 7:01 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


- Cersei makes a will (Wis) save against confession, but perhaps fails a Con save against dehydration

Which is also to say that I'm curious how this mechanic operates with Cersei. On the one hand, she clearly rolls like a m'fer on will checks. But her wisdom score has got to be so incredibly @#(*$&)@*#&$#$ low. Does she get a character-based bonus to will checks? Up until now, has she gotten to make will checks based on CHA rather than WIS?
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:07 AM on June 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


My favorite little detail about the fight was the high-pitched whine that arose out of the White Walker's weapon hitting Longclaw, as if the Valyrian steel was violently refusing what it was being asked to do by the enchantment on the other weapon. Magic of old against magic of old, right there.
posted by Kosh at 7:23 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Quotes from the episode:
--

Tyrion [to Dany]: “You want revenge against the Lannisters? I killed my mother, Joanna Lannister, on the day I was born. I killed my father, Tywin Lannister, with a bolt to the heart. I am the greatest Lannister killer of our time.”
--

Jon: "I'm not asking you to forget your dead. I'll never forget mine. I lost 50 brothers the night that Mance attacked the Wall. But I'm asking you to think about your children now. They'll never have children of their own if we don't band together. The Long Night is coming and the dead come with it. No clan can stop them. The free folk can't stop them. The Night's Watch can't stop them. And all the southern kings can't stop them. Only together, all of us. And even then it may not be enough, but at least we'll give the fuckers a fight."
--

Tormund [To the Free Folk Elders about Jon]: “He’s prettier than both my daughters, but he knows how to fight. He’s young, but he knows how to lead. He didn’t have to come to Hardhome, he came because he needs us. And we need him.”
--

Tyrion [to Dany]: “A ruler who kills those devoted to her is not a ruler who inspires devotion.”
--

Tyrion: "When I was a young man, I heard a story about a baby born during the worst storm in living memory. She had no wealth, no lands, no army, only a name and a handful of supporters, most of whom probably thought they could use that name to benefit themselves. They kept her alive, moving her from place to place, often hours ahead of the men who'd been sent to kill her. She was eventually sold off to some warlord on the edge of the world and that appeared to be that. And then a few years later, the most well-informed person I knew told me that this girl without wealth, lands, or armies had somehow acquired all three in a very short span of time, along with three dragons. He thought she was our best, last chance to build a better world. I thought you were worth meeting at the very least."
Daenerys: "And why are you worth meeting? Why should I spend my time listening to you?"
Tyrion: "Because you cannot build a better world on your own. You have no one at your side who understands the land you want to rule. The strength and weaknesses of the houses that will either join or oppose you."
Daenerys: "I will have a very large army and very large dragons."
Tyrion: "Killing and politics aren't always the same thing. When I served as Hand of the King, I did quite well with the latter, considering the king in question preferred torturing animals to meeting his people. I could do an even better job advising a ruler worth the name.”
--

Loboda: "My ancestors would spit on me if I broke bread with a crow."
Karsi: "So would mine. But fuck it, they’re dead."
posted by zarq at 7:30 AM on June 1, 2015 [9 favorites]


Random follow-up thoughts to this thread:
* Dany and Tyrion aren't going to be fast friends, his family killed hers and hunted her. Yeah, I can understand some trepidation at being open and chatty with him. Plus
-- she shot down his "family killer" boast as not the best route to win support as a trusted ally
-- she told him "If I want jokes, I'll get myself a proper fool" (which was a fun throw-back to the books for me)
(and on reading a transcript, I realize this was in relation to Tyrion's suggestion to "try wanting something else" than the Iron Throne).

* I understood "breaking the wheel" to imply that nobility always maintained control, and she wanted to do away with nobility (to a degree - otherwise, she'd want to melt down the Iron Throne and bring about some republic or democracy, and she hasn't said that to date). The noble houses play their Game of Thrones with each-other, taking turns being the Top Spoke or whatnot. It's not a polite "it's your turn" type thing, but the only ones to hold serious power are the Nobility, which echoes the High Sparrows comments from earlier, about the few forgetting that they are trying to maintain control of the many.

I liked the general exchange, except Dany's insistence that the little people wanted her to regain her place as proper ruler of the Seven Kingdoms bothered me, because she had previously put aside those stories of "everyone has secret House Targaryen banners in their cupboards, awaiting your triumphant return" as silly stories told to make her and her crazy brother happy.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:41 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


And ditto the confusion over the Hardhome battle. I wish they had agreed on Shirts vs Skeletons or something, because all that slashing and hacking made it really confusing about who was fighting who (which may well have been the point, which was also the point about the need for the Free Folk to work with the Crows, because any other identity beyond Living vs Dead is pointless, in the face of the undead hoards).

I wonder how long until the White Walkers come upon the idea Walk, Don't Swim.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:45 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


I feel like there was one gigantic idiot ball in this episode though - wouldn't the wildlings be pretty intimately familiar with the zombie's fire vulnerability? But Wun Wun is the only one who things to pick up something burning and hit zombies with it?

Wun Wun didn't actually use the giant log as a flaming weapon, but a huge club that just happened to also be on fire. I was also surprised the archers didn't have flaming arrows, but then again they were trying to stop the undead from coming through a wooden wall. Still, I was sad we didn't see a few flaming corpses, because as noted in the GoT Wikia, "their flesh is extremely flammable, as if it were coated in oil: it will easily catch fire and continue to burn if exposed to even a small amount of flame."
posted by filthy light thief at 7:50 AM on June 1, 2015


Excellent point, joyceanmachine! And of course, under 5e, will saves are a thing of the past.

From the Basic Rules (all I have at hand):
"Wisdom reflects how attuned you are to the world around you and represents perceptiveness and intuition." I don't know that Cersei has a below-average Wisdom score, but I'd definitely rule that her biases give her disadvantage on Wisdom-based rolls – especially insight rolls.
"Charisma measures your ability to interact effectively with others. It includes such factors as confidence and eloquence, and it can represent a charming or commanding personality." (emph. added) I've also read that the Charisma ability can measure a character's sense of self-worth, which is certainly under attack in Cersei's case. Cersei, in this interpretation, is being forced to make a Charisma check with an absurdly high DC (25 or even 30).

We could also rule that she's engaging in intimidation contests with Septa Unella, and while Cersei undoubtedly has a high Charisma bonus, the Septa's religious fanaticism is giving her advantage on her opposing roll.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 7:51 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Karsi was fantastic, it's a damn shame she got stuffed into that red shirt. When the wightlings showed up I was hoping for a glorious trope subversion, but nope, death by maternal instinct. Kind of a turd in the punchbowl for the whole episode. The punch was delicious though, so I'll happily drink around it.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 7:54 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Still, I was sad we didn't see a few flaming corpses, because as noted in the GoT Wikia, "their flesh is extremely flammable, as if it were coated in oil: it will easily catch fire and continue to burn if exposed to even a small amount of flame."

I suspect that will be revealed to viewers when the Walkers attack The Wall. Big wooden barrels of pitch and lamp oil set aflame and hurled from above into teeming masses of attacking Walkers at the base of The Wall should be an interesting visual.
posted by zarq at 8:05 AM on June 1, 2015


I wonder how long until the White Walkers come upon the idea Walk, Don't Swim.

I have to admit I was looking for some Dead Things in the Water:

At Hardhome, with six ships. Wild seas. Blackbird lost with all hands, two Lyseni ships driven aground on Skane, Talon taking water. Very bad here. Wildlings eating their own dead. Dead things in the woods. Braavosi captains will only take women, children on their ships. Witch women call us slavers. Attempt to take Storm Crow defeated, six crew dead, many wildlings. Eight ravens left. Dead things in the water. Send help by land, seas wracked by storms.
posted by nubs at 8:06 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Stepping away from Hardhome for a moment, I was very happy to see Sansa so self-composed and assertive. This is the Sansa I was hoping would appear, though not because of her treatment at the hands of her "husband." She is no Jeyne Pool.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:13 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Re: Karsi, characters who say the words "I promise," particularly to their children* are very likely to die, starting with Ned. The only exception I can think of in the show is Sam, who said it to Gilly.

*adopted or otherwise
---

Re: Valyrian Steel, there is also Valyrian steel in a few maesters' chains (RIP Maester Luwin). Hopefully that smith who can rework Valyrian Steel is still hanging around in King's Landing. Does anyone know if there is Valyrian Steel in the Iron Throne? If so, probably time to melt that sucker down.

Also, there is "Valyrian Stone" that was used to seal Xaro Xhoan Daxos and Doreah in his vault. No word yet on what that stuff is or whether it has any effect on WWs, or whether "stone men" who come from Valyria might have some powers over them -- perhaps we'll find out with Jorah or Shireen.

---

Re: Sansa, it was nice to see her get some good news that is truly good and not overshadowed by some horrible double-crossing. Although, if I were Sansa I think my reaction based on all my world experiences would be, Reek/Ramsey is just messing with my head right now, and I would continue to assume Bran and Rickon were actually dead.

---

Re: the Arya story line, I am a big fan generally, but for some reason the dialog about merchants and pirates and money in this episode was hard to follow and not worth the effort of replaying.

---

Re: the High Sparrow etc., the Seven are one of the few religions that have yet to actually show magical power. They have plenty of political and brute force power, but not anything magical. Only magical forces (e.g. Valyrian Steel, the Children, etc.) seem proof against the Army of Darkness the Dead. So I have the feeling that most of their supporters will end up as zombies.

---

Re: Tyrion and Daenerys, I liked their dialog. In the show at least, my bet would be on Tyrion ruling while Dany is away. Mormont seems an ill fit for that role. He'd be better at leading armies.

---

Re: GIANT!, I am looking forward to Wun Wun putting that dragon glass to good use on an ice spider. Which, btw, "spiders big as hounds" -- another Season One callback from the Old Nan story with Bran.
posted by tempestuoso at 8:47 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Something that was unclear, because the language was intentionally obtuse and the stream kept freeing up and sound kept dropping out - is the "gambler" an insurance salesman? What's going on there?

He's a life insurance merchant for sailors. Ship captains buy policies from him which guarantee their families will be paid if they die at sea. However, according to Jaqen H'ghar, the gambler often doesn't pay, leaving families destitute. Jaqen orders her to learn all she can about the con man, so that she may eventually poison him.
posted by zarq at 9:17 AM on June 1, 2015 [5 favorites]


Good point about the maester chains containing Valyrian steel! I wonder where they get it from? Tywin was overjoyed to get his hands on Ice so that he could melt it down and replace Brightroar, which indicates that the steel itself must be very rare.

Only Maesters who study magic get a Valyrian steel link though, and there aren't many of them. Luwin had studied magic, so there's probably a bit of Valyrian steel somewhere in Winterfell.
posted by painquale at 9:18 AM on June 1, 2015


Yeah, the fact that they were able to remake Ice into other swords suggests that it's a recipe rather than a technique, but the metal itself can't be much different than regular steel if the king's landing smith was able to work it.

conclusion: a wizard did it
posted by poffin boffin at 9:23 AM on June 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


Well, Valyrian steel is based on Damascus steel in real life, which is pretty much just as mysterious. Can Damascus steel be reworked? I genuinely have no idea.
posted by painquale at 9:40 AM on June 1, 2015


now I want to roll up Cersei's character sheet

STR: 6 (picked arbitrarily)
CON: 16 (she came through four childbirths in great shape in an era without real medicine)
DEX: 12 (that physical grace of courtesy doesn't come easy)
INT: 13 (she's not dumb. She really, really isn't. She's just not as smart as she thinks she is.)
WIS: 10, +/- 7 -- Cersei has a special Dunning-Kruger "bonus." In situations that involve her own power or safety, or that of her children, Cersei has to roll against INT. On failure, she believes that her WIS increases to 17, but in fact it decreases to 3.
CHA: 18+
posted by KathrynT at 9:51 AM on June 1, 2015 [15 favorites]


Dany and Tyrion aren't going to be fast friends, his family killed hers and hunted her.

Unless he's a secret Targ, in which case BFF 4-eva.
posted by corb at 9:53 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Tywin says the smith that worked with Ice is one of the three in the world that know how to do that, so the knowledge about reworking it is not terribly common
posted by LionIndex at 9:54 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


a wizardsmith did it
posted by poffin boffin at 9:55 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Tobho Mott, the King's Landing armorer, is from distant Qohor, where "blacksmiths also preserve the secret of how to reforge Valyrian steel, guarding it jealously." So if you're in on the trade secret (the linked article implies dark magic), you can melt and shape the steel without destroying its virtue. What you can't do is make more of it.
posted by Iridic at 9:55 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


If you could make more of it (using dragons?), there'd be no need to waste time teasing it into sword shape. Just cast a ton of flechettes, drop 'em into a catapult, point it at the White Walkers, and let her rip.
posted by Iridic at 9:59 AM on June 1, 2015


But if you already have dragons to make it why not just fly over the undead army instead and set them all cheerily ablaze.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:01 AM on June 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


When Lord of Bones/ Rattleshirt is beaten to death with his own club, my first thought for a description in this thread was "Tormund negotiates".
posted by quin at 10:03 AM on June 1, 2015 [17 favorites]


"Anybody else wanna negotiate?"

"W-where did he learn to negotiate like that?"
posted by couch fort dinner party at 10:13 AM on June 1, 2015 [5 favorites]


But if you already have dragons to make it why not just fly over the undead army instead and set them all cheerily ablaze.

I'm guessing dragons don't like cold weather. Perhaps they refuse to venture that far north?
posted by zarq at 10:25 AM on June 1, 2015


And do the walkers even know the Dragons are back? I'm guessing so, since the mage at the House of the Undying mentioned that the Dragons heralded the return of magic power.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:29 AM on June 1, 2015


Alysanne visited the wall on her dragon and they renamed one of the castles for her. Queensgate? Queensguard?
posted by poffin boffin at 10:30 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


"What in the seven hells are these?"
"Thermal protection for the fire-breathers. I call 'em Dragon Snuggies."
"..."
posted by zarq at 10:30 AM on June 1, 2015


Alysanne visited the wall on her dragon and they renamed one of the castles for her. Queensgate? Queensguard?

What time of year?
posted by zarq at 10:33 AM on June 1, 2015


But if you already have dragons to make it why not just fly over the undead army instead and set them all cheerily ablaze.

Terrible idea. Dragons aren't just a weapon, they're the sole means of production for the only thing that kills White Walkers. And you only have three. And they're irreplaceable.

Take those dragons, feed them well, keep them FAR AWAY from the North, (hell, keep two of them out of Westeros entirely) and have them cranking our Dragonsteel all day long: swords, spears, armor, arrowtips, etc.

I'm confident that Tyrion would understand that.
posted by leotrotsky at 10:34 AM on June 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


Plus, on the off chance that one dies north of the wall, then Frosty McNecromancer gets himself an Ice Dragon mount, and things are pretty much over for everyone.
posted by mrjohnmuller at 10:39 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also, the sole means of defeating the invading alien force are currently going through AN AWKWARD TEEN PHASE
posted by The Whelk at 10:40 AM on June 1, 2015 [12 favorites]


Guy who looks vaguely like Tormund: "I agree with Tormund."
posted by drezdn at 10:41 AM on June 1, 2015 [14 favorites]


re: Valyrian steel - we had a long and thoroughly nerdy discussion once over on r/asoiaf about this some while back. Somewhat abbreviated summary -

"Damascus" steel and wootz steel are not the same thing. Damascus / damascene steel is a form of pattern welding which is in common use to this day for things like Shun knives and fancy katanas. It is NOT strong though, the pattern welding / folding / inclusions makes it more susceptible to breaking.

Wootz steel is the true "Damascus" steel that it seems GRRM is referencing. It has a much finer almost "fishscaled" look to it than the wide waves of pattern welded steel. this fine scaled pattern is as a result of controlled crystallization of the combination of magnetic ores, extremely controlled heating to extremely high temperatures, and a recipe of carbon, iron and alloy metals that has been lost to history, and is still not fully understood to this day. The resulting steel is actually strengthened owing to a structure of actual carbon nanotubes (yep, that's right).
posted by lonefrontranger at 10:45 AM on June 1, 2015 [5 favorites]


the sole means of production for the only thing that kills White Walkers.

Dragonglass is just obsidian, though. Which comes from volcanoes (so old valryia?), and is mined on Dragonstone. It's also apparently one of the main exports of Asshai.

i've opened the wiki, all is lost
posted by poffin boffin at 10:45 AM on June 1, 2015 [6 favorites]


And you only have three. And they're irreplaceable.

Sooo, do you try to breed dragons or what? 'Cause talk about an animal that could blow up in your face.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:45 AM on June 1, 2015




Also I assume at some point Melisandre will be able to do A Firey Thing to the zombsicles.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:52 AM on June 1, 2015


Only if you sacrifice a child to the lord of light first.
posted by Pyry at 10:55 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


For anyone btw who wants a whole wealth of crazy background information (like dragonglass being a Asshai export) as well as several intriguing but not remotely trustworthy hints, the World of Ice and Fire coffee table book is NOT in fact just a big glossy book full of family trees and pictures of dragons, but in fact contains a shitload of world information.

Or, cf. poffin boffin, you can just read the wiki.
posted by KathrynT at 10:59 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


dont do it

save yourselves
posted by poffin boffin at 11:01 AM on June 1, 2015 [7 favorites]


Re: the Arya story line, I am a big fan generally, but for some reason the dialog about merchants and pirates and money in this episode was hard to follow and not worth the effort of replaying.

This was basically a story about an insurance guy not paying the beneficiaries of deceased merchants when their ships sink.

Oops. Already answered.
posted by eas98 at 11:01 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


And I was going to say Damascus steel was rediscovered, but Wikipedia tells me otherwise:
The original method of producing Damascus steel is not known. Because of differences in raw materials and manufacturing techniques, modern attempts to duplicate the metal have not been entirely successful. Despite this, several individuals in modern times have claimed that they have rediscovered the methods by which the original Damascus steel was produced.
Apparently the word wootz is a corruption of the word for steel ukku in many south Indian languages, but I'm not wholly sure how you get from some pronunciation of ukku to wootz.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:01 AM on June 1, 2015


If you have a true Damascus steel knife forged long ago, can you rework it? Or will doing so unwootzify it?
posted by painquale at 11:08 AM on June 1, 2015


ehh, not necessarily "rediscovered" but once they figured out both the magical combo of alloys, plus that the structure was a combo of cementite nanowires and carbon nanotubes, which took some pretty advanced spectrographic analysis and microscopic imaging that was unavailable to, like, eighteenth century English dudes attempting to steal the trick of it, then there have been some metallurgists within the past decade, actually, who've gotten if not 100% of the way there, then really, really close.

the real key from people who know shit about metalworking is it requires an insanely controlled fraction of vanadium / carbon and an insanely controlled, repeated heating / cooling / tempering cycle to temperatures that were previously believed to be unavailable to thirteenth century Hyderabad to get anything like a workable material. But lo, that's where the technique was mastered. Potentially using a source of Scandinavian ore, if recent archaeological finds are to be believed.
posted by lonefrontranger at 11:08 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Too bad Tyrion is over in Meereen now, cuz if he got wind of the wight invasion and their issues with fire, he's got a pretty good working relationship with the ubernapalm industry.
posted by LionIndex at 11:09 AM on June 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


yeah it's too bad wildfire (or whatever the green stuff is called, my brain keeps saying FIENDFYRE and i'm like, shut up potter) travels/stores so badly, it seems like something they should have a lot of on the wall. although i guess it might burn the ice by accident?
posted by poffin boffin at 11:12 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


ftl: I could see it based on the fact that linguistically "u" and "w" become somewhat interchangeable in some Germanic dialects, and trade routes for this stuff ran through the Carpathians which adds a whole other layer of Cyrillic consonants to the mix.
posted by lonefrontranger at 11:13 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


he's got a pretty good working relationship with the ubernapalm industry

Ubernapalm + giant flying fighting aerial lighters = zombie crisp MAGIC.
posted by joyceanmachine at 11:16 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


also ftr I am going to echo poffin boffin and say that, fair warning; enter the wiki at your own risk as there's a nonzero chance you could emerge pale and blinking six months from now, unemployed and covered in cheetos dust.
posted by lonefrontranger at 11:18 AM on June 1, 2015 [11 favorites]


"Oh, dear! I do not like these White Walker creatures, at all. *barfs fire everywhere*."
posted by nom de poop at 11:21 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


also ftr I am going to echo poffin boffin and say that, fair warning; enter the wiki at your own risk as there's a nonzero chance you could emerge pale and blinking six months from now, unemployed and covered in cheetos dust.

I learned that when trying to figure out what would happen in the final Harry Potter book, while I was unemployed and living with the lovely lady who is now my wife. I got into the books only when 6 of the 7 books were out, and I didn't change or clean up at all, much to the chagrin of my SO who found me in my bathrobe, staring blankly at my computer, trying to piece together rumors and riddles.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:23 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Thoughts from the early Daenerys and Tyrion discussion:

Tyrion: My own sister married someone she loathed as well, though not by choice and certainly not for the greater good, gods forbid. She ended up having him killed.
Dany: Perhaps it won't come to that.
(Setup: Drogon roasting the fighting pits, including new husband)

Dany: Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell. They're all just spokes on a wheel. This one's on top, then that one's on top. And on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground.
Tyrion: It's a beautiful dream, stopping the wheel. You're not the first person who's ever dreamt it.
Dany: I'm not going to stop the wheel. I'm going to break the wheel.
(Which got me thinking about a Wheel of Time cross-over special. There's still hope, Red Eagle Entertainment, make it happen!)
posted by filthy light thief at 11:30 AM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


I decided to play a guessing game of where everything will be at the end of next week:

Jon > Stabbed, possibly resurrected, since that would be an impossible secret to keep over the break.
Sam > On a slow boat to Oldtown.
Cersei > Having done her walk of shame and planning her revenge.
Daeny > Realizing that her empire is crumbling, but probably not having flown the coop.
Tyrion > See above. If Daeny does fly off, then he might be in charge of the Mereen mess (although it seems WAY to early to do that).
Stannis > I'm not sure what they're going to do with him... I could see him being dead and his army disbanded if they get into the battle of Winterfell.
Ramsay > Either dead or triumphant.
Sansa > Her escape would be a good cliffhanger.
Bronn & Jaime > Eh, I guess there has to be some resolution in Dorne, but I honestly have no idea what they're heading towards.
posted by codacorolla at 11:38 AM on June 1, 2015


I also arghhhed at Sam essentially giving Olly permission to shank Jon. Way to go, Sam, I know you mean well.

I know!

Sam: Sometimes a man has to make hard choices, choices that might look wrong to others, but you know are right in the long run.
Olly: You believe that?
Sam: With all my heart. Try not to worry, Olly. I've been worrying about Jon for years. He always comes back.

Hard choices, and Jon comes back? Oh Sam, you poor, sweet fool.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:44 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Brienne & Pod: stabbing boltons, ideally.
posted by poffin boffin at 11:45 AM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


You guys think Jon looks in the mirror and thinks "Are they right? Am I .....adorable?"
posted by The Whelk at 11:46 AM on June 1, 2015 [13 favorites]


Ideally Ramsay dies this season, and I don't have to put up with any more of his sexual violence capers in subsequent seasons.
posted by codacorolla at 11:51 AM on June 1, 2015 [10 favorites]


When the White Walkers get to the wall, how do we know they won't just wave their snowy hands at it and the wall will say "oh, that's right, I'm made out of ice" and just fall down?
posted by clockzero at 11:53 AM on June 1, 2015


If you have a true Damascus steel knife forged long ago, can you rework it? Or will doing so unwootzify it?

Melting that kind of steel down into liquid would ruin the structure, I think; part of what makes it so useful is that it has heterogenous layers of steel, softer and harder steel sandwiched together in a way that gives it an extremely tough, extremely sharp edge but also makes the whole structure more durable and resistant to shattering because the softer steel absorbs impact stresses in a way that the harder steel isn't as good at.

I could be wrong about this.
posted by clockzero at 11:59 AM on June 1, 2015


Well, Brienne's chopping through normal swords wth her reforged V-Steel blade, so I'd guess it's properties are basically still intact. Doesn't make much sense to me either, but that's how things are working.
posted by LionIndex at 12:04 PM on June 1, 2015


And on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground.

An allusion to the Wheel of Fortune, but also to a juggernaut. There are lots of other juggernauts in the show generally: an army of the dead, the Faith Militant, greyscale, death personified/faceless men. Dany will need to break a lot of wheels, not just the one.
posted by tempestuoso at 12:07 PM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


ok so. "softer and harder steel sandwiched together" is, again, how pattern welded steel (like how you forge a katana) works. Pattern welding takes 2 distinct separate alloy types of steel, and through heating and bashing at them, basically turns them into what a baker would call a "mieull-foil" like how you make a croissant.

Wootz/true Damascus is not pattern welded. The entire ingot of steel that you start out with to forge a true Damascus blade is made up of wootz that's been made solid state through a combo of alloying technology (basically magnetic iron ore + trace amounts of vanadium, then they add a super special type of wood charcoal to it to insert the carbon atoms).

Pattern welding is merely a forging technique, one that does work to a degree, but the resulting layers actually are weaker at certain strike angles. Ask anyone who's chipped their Shun on the edge of a granite countertop.

Anyways. Yes, you CAN re-forge wootz, since the magic of wootz is in not only the forging method, but also the microcrystalline structure that does not fully break down. Re-forging a piece of steel means not actually melting it down to a fully liquid state (which would lose the microcrystalline structure among other things) but softening it / cutting and re-working it into separate blades, etc.

The other trick is to re-temper it so that the structure holds up, and this was one of the things that I think was alluded to with "only 3 masters know the technique" in the story. You have to have an extremely controlled environment to very slowly heat, cool, and then there was some special tempering methodology that was also lost to time (all sorts of ad hoc mythical tropes about "quenching the blade in the heart of a lover" comes to mind).

At any rate, GRRM is as much a period historian as any of us, and he is (among other things) a blade nerd. He is using our modern myths about wootz Damascus as the basis for Valyrian steel, much as the entire series is loosely based on the War of the Roses.
posted by lonefrontranger at 12:10 PM on June 1, 2015 [5 favorites]


we are all enormous nerds basically
posted by poffin boffin at 12:13 PM on June 1, 2015 [15 favorites]


also I've long said that our modern knowledge of the forge heating temperatures used to recreate accurate wootz alloys in recent years are a nice shout-out to dragonfire (or, yo, magma tubes) being one of the super seekrit methods of forging Valyrian steel. dunno about the controlled ramp rates tho, there's a thing.
posted by lonefrontranger at 12:14 PM on June 1, 2015


I always imagined the re-working of Ice as "Cutting" the two smaller swords out of it (not the lead-pot action that is shown in the show) so that the folded steel properties would remain largely intact.

At least that how I would have done this totally fictional thing :)
posted by French Fry at 12:26 PM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


One of the best things in the episode that I don't think has been noted yet in this thread: the shot of the approach to Hardhome is identical to the shot of the boat retreating from Hardhome, only now most of the fires are out, and now everyone standing on the shore is dead. I'd love to see a clip with those two shots one after the other.
posted by ocherdraco at 12:45 PM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


It almost seemed like a bit of a shoutout to Apocalypse Now too, right? Can you do a scene where you pull up in a little boat with a bunch of people on shore and NOT look like you're referencing Apocalypse Now?
posted by LionIndex at 12:50 PM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


the best part was when tormund stole coldhands' surfboard
posted by poffin boffin at 12:52 PM on June 1, 2015 [8 favorites]


I love the smell of Wildfire in the morning.
posted by tempestuoso at 12:59 PM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Mistah Rattleshurtz? He dead. Oh, wait...ok...maybe not so much then.
posted by LionIndex at 1:24 PM on June 1, 2015


Here are screenshots of the arrival and departure from Hardhome side by side. Not as effective as it would be in motion, but you still get the idea. All those people are dead.
posted by ocherdraco at 1:36 PM on June 1, 2015 [6 favorites]


Tyrion: My own sister married someone she loathed as well, though not by choice and certainly not for the greater good, gods forbid. She ended up having him killed.
Dany: Perhaps it won't come to that.


That was the ONE bit of the dialogue that I liked. Reminds me to ask, though--what does Daenerys plan to do with Hizdahr once she heads to Westeros, if it doesn't "come to that"? She leaves him behind, obviously, but I'm curious how that plays out.
posted by torticat at 1:55 PM on June 1, 2015


I think she doesn't have a plan re: Hizdahr for that far ahead. Marrying him solves an immediate problem, at the expense of setting up a much trickier one later.
posted by ocherdraco at 2:03 PM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Dany: Lannister, Targaryen, Baratheon, Stark, Tyrell. They're all just spokes on a wheel. This one's on top, then that one's on top. And on and on it spins, crushing those on the ground.
Tyrion: It's a beautiful dream, stopping the wheel. You're not the first person who's ever dreamt it.
Dany: I'm not going to stop the wheel. I'm going to break the wheel.


...reads better in text than it did on the show. The thing is it doesn't matter which spoke is "on top"--that's just not a thing with spokes and wheels. The spokes are serving the same function no matter their position and the one on top is no more crushing whatever is on the ground than the one on the bottom. Dumb metaphor.

I do like how Tyrion tried to catch her out with "You're not the first person who's ever dreamt it" though. The Whelk's description of one long negotiation of sheer Egos is pretty much right on.
posted by torticat at 2:07 PM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Very glad Wun Wun made it.

Also good to see Sansa out of bed. Which is basically what you say about your grandmother in the nursing home, but still.
posted by turbid dahlia at 2:30 PM on June 1, 2015 [6 favorites]


The thing is it doesn't matter which spoke is "on top"--that's just not a thing with spokes and wheels. The spokes are serving the same function no matter their position and the one on top is no more crushing whatever is on the ground than the one on the bottom.

That's exactly how Dany sees it. Different House names, but they're all the same, pieces of wheel that's crushing others. So she's going to break said wheel.

Oh that sweet summer child.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:32 PM on June 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


That's exactly how Dany sees it.

Yeah you're right. It's not how I see it, but you're right about Daenerys. So yeah, maybe it wasn't a dumb metaphor so much as a naive one.
posted by torticat at 2:39 PM on June 1, 2015


The thing is it doesn't matter which spoke is "on top"--that's just not a thing with spokes and wheels.

but ferris wheels
posted by Hoopo at 2:52 PM on June 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


Fun Wun Wun story I didn't know until today. As many already know, Gurm is a fan of the New York Football Giants. Supposedly, Wun Wun is named in tribute to former Giants quarterback, Phil Simms (whose number was 11). In the books, Wun Wun takes out a knight whose symbol is the Dallas Cowboys star.
posted by drezdn at 3:08 PM on June 1, 2015 [7 favorites]


Jon > Stabbed, possibly resurrected, since that would be an impossible secret to keep over the break.

I'm betting on stabbed in Ep 10 but not resurrected - it would be too good a cliffhanger to avoid. Plus, I think we're going to see Sansa sending word to Jon somehow, which could only happen Ep 9 if Ep 10 is stabbing

Sam > On a slow boat to Oldtown.

Agreed. Jon needs to send him and he needs to be gone for the stabbing.

Cersei > Having done her walk of shame and planning her revenge.

Disagree - that has to be Ep 10, given the title.

Daeny > Realizing that her empire is crumbling, but probably not having flown the coop.
Actually I'm pretty sure 'Dance of Dragons' either refers to us a) seeing fAegon, or b) Drogon burning up the fighting pits

Tyrion > See above. If Daeny does fly off, then he might be in charge of the Mereen mess (although it seems WAY to early to do that).

I think Ep 9 will leave Tyrion in shock, Ep 10 will see him ruling in her name, primarily with the backing of the Unsullied.

Stannis > I'm not sure what they're going to do with him... I could see him being dead and his army disbanded if they get into the battle of Winterfell.


I think we will probably see him in Ep 10, episode title makes it likely that Shireen burning (or not) will take place then

Ramsay > Either dead or triumphant.
Sansa > Her escape would be a good cliffhanger.


I could see these two being related.

Bronn & Jaime > Eh, I guess there has to be some resolution in Dorne, but I honestly have no idea what they're heading towards.

I think they're mostly going to be re-establishing Myrcella as a character, so her Queening can be arranged.
posted by corb at 3:48 PM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Speaking of Wun Weg Wun Dar Wun, here's David J. Peterson's blog post about that bit of the Old Tongue (or, as you'll see, not-exactly-the-Old-Tongue) that our favorite knight-slaying giant says to Edd.
posted by ocherdraco at 3:49 PM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


but ferris wheels

a song of ice and bouncy castles
posted by poffin boffin at 4:33 PM on June 1, 2015 [6 favorites]


I think Bronn might be getting the Oakheart story line. Which makes me sad because I want Bronn to live forever.
posted by drezdn at 5:01 PM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


Agreed. Jon needs to send him and he needs to be gone for the stabbing.

I'm worried that if they cut the Oldtown storyline then Sam is going to get stabbed too. Stannis has already left, so we don't need Gilly for baby swap. But I may just be thinking this because he had to share a scene with Olly and his murder eyes.
posted by Gary at 5:19 PM on June 1, 2015 [1 favorite]


The internet will explode because in episode 10 Olly will say "For the Watch!" and then balance the Night Watch's finances throw a bond issue available to Lords throughout the realm.
posted by drezdn at 5:33 PM on June 1, 2015 [4 favorites]


Watching people flip their shit at the Jon Snow stabbing is going to be glorious. It's also the last one these that we really have, except for Daeny absconding on the dragon and maybe Cersei's walk of shame.
posted by codacorolla at 7:52 PM on June 1, 2015 [5 favorites]


Also Bran turning into a tree, and possibly the question of Jon's parentage. And I think it's possible that the Cat revelation is still coming, just very delayed.
posted by painquale at 8:15 PM on June 1, 2015


Oh, also, Arya getting blinded.
posted by painquale at 8:16 PM on June 1, 2015


And I think it's possible that the Cat revelation is still coming, just very delayed.

LADY STONEHEART TRUTHER WATCH
posted by Justinian at 8:19 PM on June 1, 2015 [10 favorites]


She shows up at the end of Season 7 episode 10 saying "Where is everyone?"
posted by drezdn at 8:22 PM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


Has Jon's parentage really been cleared up yet in the books?

Also, just curious: do the books clarify if there's some magical property of water that hurts white walkers?
posted by mediareport at 8:36 PM on June 1, 2015


Chrys Watches GoT: Seaon 5 Ep 8
"stannis baratheon would rather carve out his heart and eat it with a spoon than give you the throne"
posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:25 PM on June 1, 2015


Has Jon's parentage really been cleared up yet in the books?

No. If anything it's less clear because we've been given multiple stories of women who Ned might have had an affair with.

Also, just curious: do the books clarify if there's some magical property of water that hurts white walkers?

Not according to the wiki.

Lots and lots of dragonglass on the volcanic island of Dragonstone, so don't worry about losing those daggers unless more idiot ball happens.

I don't have any confidence in them after they kept all the daggers in a sack instead of passing them around when the battle started. With the White Walkers being all "come at me bro" and posing on the shoreline it would only take four dragonglass arrowheads and a good marksman to cut this series a lot shorter.
posted by Gary at 10:07 PM on June 1, 2015 [2 favorites]


There have been more hints in the books than the show about the R+L=J theory of Jon's parentage. But nothing has been cleared up.
posted by Gary at 10:08 PM on June 1, 2015


Notable; did show-Arya ever go through a blind stage? It seemed like a really important part of character growth and might have knock-on plot implications. Especially the Arya Stark/no-one dichotomy and potential ninja stuff.
posted by porpoise at 11:00 PM on June 1, 2015


Has Jon's parentage really been cleared up yet in the books?

It hasn't been outright stated, but it would be incredible if R+L=J were false. If nothing more were said about Jon's parentage, I'd consider an interpretation that denied R=L=J to be a misreading.

I actually hope that nothing more about it is said and that it never amounts to anything relevant to the plot. (Like Carrot's parentage in the Discworld novels.) Similarly, I hope that all the prophecies about Azor Azai and Lightbringer and the valonqar are so on are left vague and unresolved or are outright refuted. I like it when the books replace traditional fantasy narratives with politics and historical contingency.

Notable; did show-Arya ever go through a blind stage? It seemed like a really important part of character growth and might have knock-on plot implications.

No; I think they might use this as a cliffhanger in episode 10. If episode 10 contains Arya getting blinded, Jon dying, Dany riding Drogon, and Cersei's walk, it's going to be a crazy episode. Even if two of those turn out to be fake-outs.
posted by painquale at 11:06 PM on June 1, 2015 [3 favorites]


he's going to be the Typhoid Marty that gets Daeny's collapsing empire kicked off

Possible spoilers: Mormont already smacked around his master, which could have been enough to infect him, who in turn infects the city's denizens. Somehow, Hizdahr gets infected, in turn. Dany and Tyrion have to advance their plans for returning to Westeros, but she first uses her dragons to cleanse the city and arrange a hasty divorce. Out of mercy for the infected, of course. The showrunners tie up Syrio Forel's storyline when going into the Night King's backstory. Cut to credits.
posted by a lungful of dragon at 12:57 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Do we know if the White Walkers can raise anyone from the dead? Or only those that died by their hand (or their zombies' hand)? If it's the former then I'm getting a creepy visual of them marching into Winterfell and opening up the Stark crypts.
posted by double bubble at 5:18 AM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Another possible shit flipper is the Uncle Kevan bolting

Edit: mostly because it is delivered by Varys
posted by xorry at 5:29 AM on June 2, 2015


It's going to have to be a three hour ep!
posted by double bubble at 5:52 AM on June 2, 2015


Book Arya was blinded after killing whatshisname, the annoying singing Night's Watch guy who came with Sam, right?
posted by poffin boffin at 6:30 AM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Indeed -- and we're supposed to think that her blinding was punishment for killing Dareon for personal reasons. It turns out that the blinding would have been part of her training anyway, and that the Kindly Man accelerated that part. With only two episodes left, I wonder if we will get to that this season, especially since she's just casing her first job now. Perhaps at the beginning of next season she'll shank a deserter, and we'll see how she trains in blindness in subsequent episodes.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 6:45 AM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


My genuine hope is that the show is cutting both Griff and Young Griff completely. They already skipped what would have been their introduction on the boats.

I have similar feelings about lady stoneheart, she’s a neat monster but a total side-step of the story.

I also think it’s possible (though unlikely) that the show might skip the Dany and Drogon BBQ-road-trip because it similarly seems like a big step-back for her, and show Dany has been a lot more confident and less at the control of ‘wise old men’ than her book counterpart. I don’t feel like she needs to go find herself.
posted by French Fry at 6:57 AM on June 2, 2015


Book Arya was blinded after killing whatshisname, the annoying singing Night's Watch guy who came with Sam, right?

This is one case I actually prefer how they're doing it in the show. I think that's going to happen for her killing Ser Meryn Trant, rather than Dareon, and that is fine. Really the fact that she was enforcing Night Watch rules against desertion always seemed a little weak to me.
posted by corb at 7:01 AM on June 2, 2015


Perhaps at the beginning of next season she'll shank a deserter, and we'll see how she trains in blindness in subsequent episodes

Isn't Meryn Trant on his way to Braavos with Mace Tyrell? My assumption was that she'll shank Meryn Trant since he's on her List of People to Kill. I'm guessing she'll do that and her blindness will be her season finale cliffhanger.
posted by gatorae at 7:38 AM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


Oh yes, I forgot about Meryn Fucking Trant! No doubt she'll shank him instead.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 7:51 AM on June 2, 2015


Fun Wun Wun story I didn't know until today. As many already know, Gurm is a fan of the New York Football Giants. Supposedly, Wun Wun is named in tribute to former Giants quarterback, Phil Simms (whose number was 11). In the books, Wun Wun takes out a knight whose symbol is the Dallas Cowboys star.

That's pretty subtle compared to Belicho, who "was a renowned Volantene patriot whose famous exploits are recorded in the series The Life of the Triarch Belicho. His unbroken succession of conquests and triumphs ended rather abruptly when he was eaten by giants."

I guess if he were a [Valyrian] Steelers fan, the books would have lots of messages intercepted from ravens.
posted by kurumi at 8:33 AM on June 2, 2015 [11 favorites]


Man I really felt like I watched a totally different show from so many of you! I hated that episode.

Quoting myself from upthread.

Having done a bunch of reading, I see I wasn't only in the distinct minority in this thread but among critics as well-- e.g., Sepinwall. Many people seem to think this was the finest GoT episode to date, writing and direction included. I think I need to rewatch.
posted by torticat at 10:14 AM on June 2, 2015


I thought the balance of the ep was off with the Hardhome battle too heavy for what offset it in the earlier segments. But the battle itself was glorious - particularly the ending visual of the Nights Watch floating away and the overwhelming force on the shore.
posted by double bubble at 10:26 AM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think I hated the episode because I thought it'd be jumping around, and instead it was majority Hardhome. If it had been all Hardhome, or all jumping, I would have been fine.
posted by corb at 10:31 AM on June 2, 2015


Oh - I am deep into Westeros forums, which I don't advise anyone else do, but there is an interesting theory that Varys and a 'what is he up to I wonder' being mentioned is a clue that they are going to run Aegon for Ep 9.
posted by corb at 10:39 AM on June 2, 2015


Who was it last year that was arguing with me that Valyrian steel wasn't magical, and that it was just well engineered steel?


I think it can be both. That would make the "original" Valyrian running about out there magical and tough as shit, but Oathkeeper and Widow's Wail only tough as shit, but not magical (don't expect exploding wights).
posted by tilde at 10:58 AM on June 2, 2015


Well, specifically we were talking about the ridiculous fight scene where Jon Snow is fought down to the wire with a guy dual wielding shitty iron daggers who manages to block a full overhead strike of Longclaw, when later in the series Brienne breaks a sword with her re-cut Valyrian steel.

It's not surprising, because the plot needs each of those things to happen, and this is just a sword and sorcery soap opera after all.
posted by codacorolla at 12:10 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


gatorae: "Isn't Meryn Trant on his way to Braavos with Mace Tyrell? My assumption was that she'll shank Meryn Trant since he's on her List of People to Kill. I'm guessing she'll do that and her blindness will be her season finale cliffhanger."

Given that people have speculated that Cersei sent Trant with Mace Tyrell to possibly kill him, this might open up some interesting possibilities (note also Tyrion's mention of the Tyrells as possible allies to Dany this episode). Then again, Mace is a useless wimp, and I'm not sure just how grateful Lady Olenna would even be for someone saving his life.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:17 PM on June 2, 2015


corb: "Oh - I am deep into Westeros forums, which I don't advise anyone else do, but there is an interesting theory that Varys and a 'what is he up to I wonder' being mentioned is a clue that they are going to run Aegon for Ep 9."

Wouldn't this go totally against everything they've set up with Varys being a Daenerys supporter from square one lately? I really feel like they've consciously simplified that whole storyline.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 12:20 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


In the books, doesn't Arya still recite her vendetta list, even though she's even more of a Faceless Person there than in the show yet? I'd guess that the Meryn Trant situation is just fast forwarding past the deserter killing part and resolving whether she's truly Nobody, or still Arya and Her Vengeful Desires. I suspect the books just haven't gotten uite that far, but that she was going to face someone on her hitlist evetually.
posted by LionIndex at 12:35 PM on June 2, 2015


I read in another forum that Aemon's injunction to Jon Snow to "kill the boy" was actually referring to Olly. (To quote Walder Frey: "Heh.")

"Ides of Olly" doesn't have the same ring to it as "Ides of Marsh," though.
posted by dhens at 12:47 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


"The Ollening"
posted by dhens at 12:48 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


dhens, I thought that, too, when I first heard Maester Aemon say that. Aemon paused a beat, as if to leave Jon (and the viewer) a moment to figure out which boy he meant, as if Aemon saw something in Olly.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:24 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Sha la la la la la/ Don't be shy/You've got to kill the boy
posted by drezdn at 1:34 PM on June 2, 2015 [9 favorites]


Is that Bran warging into Scuttle?

THE THREE-EYED SEAGULL
posted by davidjmcgee at 1:37 PM on June 2, 2015 [2 favorites]


Now you see him.
Floating in a blue lagoon.
Possible he wants you too, there is one way to ask him.
They forgot to row
So you "Come at me, Crow"
Too bad none of your army can swim for some fucking reason.
posted by davidjmcgee at 2:15 PM on June 2, 2015 [4 favorites]


If I were part of a marketing team for a major empire like Disney who are rebooting their own products to stay relevant, I'd be all over mash-ups like this. Sesame Street* have done that kind of thing very well, while keeping it family appropriate.

*Not canonical, but such great references - Grover Bluejoy, Dany and her baby, Robb has a wedding to attend, Joffrey "choking" in the game and throwing a fit, Cersei running to tell her brother, and the surprise ending that makes Ned "lose his head" in frustration.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:17 PM on June 2, 2015 [3 favorites]


A random thought - everyone's been wondering what Littlefinger's game is, where he's heading for long-term.

What if he's aligned with Varys, and in on the return-of-the-Targs?

This would align with Dany's desire to smash the wheel - LF isn't a Big House Playa, but a small house swindler-made-big.

It might also explain what he's doing up in the 'Fell - getting the North all under the control of Varys' shadow council (and machinating away an inconvenient staggy King).

and would also explain what's happened to Drogon - Dany has loaned LF her first DragonExpress bus
posted by coriolisdave at 2:58 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Two things I really, really liked about this episode:

1) Jon Snow actually took damage from being thrown around by the WW. Too often in sci-fi, fantasy, and action movies, people get thrown into walls and knocked to the ground by superhumanly strong beings and don't even suffer tears in their clothing, let alone serious injury.

2) There was no sparkly magic/special effect when the NK raised the new wights. That made it scarier and more impactful.
posted by lord_wolf at 3:28 PM on June 2, 2015


I would be absolutely shocked if Littlefinger's game is anything but pro-Littlefinger.
posted by Justinian at 3:46 PM on June 2, 2015 [5 favorites]


Well sure - but the guy who gets the North together, and the Eyrie, stands a good chance of delivering the Tyrells, and has not yet pissed off Dorne?

Pretty sure that's a guy that Dany will need on her council, if nothing else.
posted by coriolisdave at 4:06 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


coriolisdave: "and would also explain what's happened to Drogon - Dany has loaned LF her first DragonExpress bus "

We saw Drogon over the ruins of Valyria just a couple of episodes ago. He's not anywhere near Littlefinger.

And yeah, Littlefinger is strictly prodigitusminimus, but he's likely to have a role in larger things anyway. I'm betting on him being instrumental to whatever the Big Ending of the whole thing is, most likely either by accident or unforeseen sideeffect, but I don't think he'll be alive at the end of it.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 4:31 PM on June 2, 2015


Jon Snow actually took damage from being thrown around by the WW.

Sure, but after a short rest and he'll regain health and spell slots (if he has them).
posted by drezdn at 4:46 PM on June 2, 2015 [5 favorites]


He could have had spell slots, but he didn't get picked to be a ranger, soooo
posted by Pope Guilty at 4:50 PM on June 2, 2015 [12 favorites]


Jon Snow actually took damage from being thrown around by the WW.

Yeah he did, he was coughing up blood and stuff, which suggests a rupture of some kind, which in olden times was basically a death sentence (I imagine), but it's fine now, he'll be fine. All better.
posted by turbid dahlia at 5:49 PM on June 2, 2015


but I don't think he'll be alive at the end of it.

A slimeball like him? He's one of the few I think stays alive. If honor is what got Ned killed, then lack of honor is what gets Littlefinger on a boat to the free cities the moment things go wrong.

The only exceptions are if he is actively working against Varys or if Arya finds out how much he had to do with things. Then he'll still make it to the free cities but get stabbed in a dark alley.
posted by Gary at 5:57 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


Both Varys and Baelish have always struck me as oppositional catspaws for much larger forces that we haven't really seen yet. Both of them tasked with bringing disorder to the Seven Kingdoms so that something else can fill the void. A pet theory is that the Ice and Fire of the title refers to two immensely powerful beings representing R'Hllor on one side and The Others on the, ergh, other who are engaged in a three dimensional chess style struggle that's placed amid the (comparatively) petty squabbling of mortals.
posted by codacorolla at 6:03 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


But Varys is all about bringing order to the Seven Kingdoms. He just believes that Danaerys is the best chance for that to happen.
posted by Justinian at 6:12 PM on June 2, 2015


Agreed, Justinian. I'd also argue that Baelish isn't trying to sow disorder - he's just trying to work his way to the very top.
posted by coriolisdave at 6:22 PM on June 2, 2015


2) There was no sparkly magic/special effect when the NK raised the new wights. That made it scarier and more impactful

Agreed. They don't need to shock and awe their "opponents" (let's face it, opposition they face is really barely a pebble in their path). This is just what happens. And will continue to happen.

I agree about LF, his main goal is advancement. I do feel that he's very confident in his abilities, and favors chaos as he believes he can manage chaos better than any of his opponents. I suspect he'll even keep that same MO as he moves up the ladder and doesn't need it to advance. He can handle anything and everything... everyone else...it's just amusing to watch them muddle around.
posted by ghost phoneme at 6:47 PM on June 2, 2015


Littlefinger is strictly prodigitusminimus...

Prodigiously so.
posted by Iridic at 6:53 PM on June 2, 2015


2) There was no sparkly magic/special effect when the NK raised the new wights. That made it scarier and more impactful

Agreed. They don't need to shock and awe their "opponents" (let's face it, opposition they face is really barely a pebble in their path). This is just what happens. And will continue to happen.


And to up the oh shit factor, the evil ice wizard called out Jon Snow as his mortal enemy with that move. Lord Commander, I think it's time for an extended vacation on the far side of Essos.
posted by double bubble at 7:56 PM on June 2, 2015 [1 favorite]


I mean, assuming some kid with a revenge thing doesn't do you in first.
posted by double bubble at 7:57 PM on June 2, 2015


Well, specifically we were talking about the ridiculous fight scene where Jon Snow is fought down to the wire with a guy dual wielding shitty iron daggers who manages to block a full overhead strike of Longclaw, when later in the series Brienne breaks a sword with her re-cut Valyrian steel.

I think Brienne might be stronger than Jon Snow.
posted by clockzero at 8:43 PM on June 2, 2015 [8 favorites]


The time Jon Snow spends making his hair look fabulous Brienne spends practicing.
posted by Justinian at 9:50 PM on June 2, 2015 [11 favorites]


Yeah, I don't think Jon could have beaten the Hound in a fight.
posted by Elementary Penguin at 4:38 AM on June 3, 2015


And maybe Jon Snow now knows how to be scared. Fighting a guy, sure. Swing swing whack, defeat. Phew.

Fighting for your life and after life and everyone else ... now he swings it like he means it.
posted by tilde at 7:10 AM on June 3, 2015


Brienne is an almost mythically strong, enormous, grown ass woman.
Jon is a not terribly big teen on the cusp of adulthood.

I have faith in her sword cutting abilities.
posted by French Fry at 7:18 AM on June 3, 2015


I know the general belief is that Melisandre will use Shireen's blood to resurrect Jon, but what if Jon is stabbed, and then Melisandre uses his blood for something?
posted by drezdn at 8:55 AM on June 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


Wisecracking Ned Head?
posted by zarq at 9:25 AM on June 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


I think best bet is she thinks burning Shireen will bring AA to life, thinking Stannis will become him, but instead it is Jon.

I'm a strong believer in the idea that all of the stuff she believes about Stannis is meant to apply to Jon, the true heir to Dragonstone.
posted by corb at 9:54 AM on June 3, 2015 [4 favorites]


Has AA ever even been mentioned in the show? That would be a huge plot turn based on something completely unknown to the audience.
posted by Falconetti at 11:27 AM on June 3, 2015


He's mentioned (though not by name) in the very first scene in which Melisandre appears (at about 1m40s), when she is burning statues of the Seven on the beach at Dragonstone. She has brought up the concept repeatedly in the ensuing seasons, when she insists that Stannis is the hero who will once again wield the sword Lightbringer.
posted by ocherdraco at 11:45 AM on June 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


By the way, did gambler dude ask Arya for oysters with vanilla? wtaf? O_o

(It's possible I misheard since I got 1/6 on the audio quality test currently on the Blue.)
posted by lord_wolf at 2:55 PM on June 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


Vinegar.
posted by tilde at 3:09 PM on June 3, 2015


Vinegar.
posted by Justinian at 3:10 PM on June 3, 2015


curse you.
posted by Justinian at 3:10 PM on June 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm glad snack technology has advanced since D&D times.
posted by trunk muffins at 3:14 PM on June 3, 2015 [3 favorites]


Hah, no! He asked for vinegar, not vanilla.

*edit* AND EVERYONE ANSWERED THIS. I need to preview.
posted by saturnine at 3:17 PM on June 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


I admit I was a bit let down to see 8 new messages on this thread in My Fanfare, and for most of them to be "Vinegar!" On the bright side, problem solved?
posted by Alterscape at 3:42 PM on June 3, 2015 [3 favorites]


(In hindsight, I realize my previous comment would have benefitted from a winky face or other "I am totally joking, this was very amusing" indicator.)
posted by Alterscape at 4:07 PM on June 3, 2015


Height update! I saw the guy who plays Jorah crossing Amsterdam today and he's my height.
posted by The Whelk at 5:09 PM on June 3, 2015 [5 favorites]


...

That's less useful than you might think for those of us who have never met you?
posted by Justinian at 5:30 PM on June 3, 2015 [4 favorites]


The Whelk's clearly about the same height as Iain Glen.

(IMDB says 6 foot 1, does that sound right? I have met Whelk and I don't think he was that tall?)
posted by Pink Frost at 5:50 PM on June 3, 2015 [1 favorite]


I'm five 10 and a half, IMDB is a dirty liar.
posted by The Whelk at 5:55 PM on June 3, 2015 [6 favorites]


Anyways...loved this episode, it allayed a lot of my doubts from episode 7 around Sansa especially. It still feels a little like they're rushing the Reek/Theon redemption (assuming it happens?) but at least they showed some of the struggle as he went back and forth between the two personalities, with Sansa trying to force him to snap back. And (touch wood) it seems like this is more about Sansa than Theon, unlike the books.

My (minority) view that Tyrion is the third head of the dragon got some possible support in the scene with him and Dany, where they're talking about family and how she's alone (even if it wasn't implying that he's a Targ, it was a nice callback to Maester Aemon talking about being a lone Targ a few episodes ago).

Idle thought (and I don't think this will happen, but...): it would be amusing if Jon didn't get stabbed, and all the stuff with Oly was just misdirection. Though far more likely that his death is the climax of the season that 'breaks the internet'.
posted by Pink Frost at 5:56 PM on June 3, 2015


Game of Thrillers
posted by zarq at 6:56 PM on June 3, 2015 [2 favorites]


Queen Cersei does her walk of shame + Jon gets stabbed = broken Internet, I think.
posted by nubs at 6:58 PM on June 3, 2015


Didn't you hear? Caitlin already broke the Internet.
posted by double bubble at 7:45 PM on June 3, 2015


I'm five 10 and a half, IMDB is a dirty liar.

I've heard that a lot of celebrities' "official height" is a filthy lie.
posted by Pope Guilty at 8:30 PM on June 3, 2015


Are they going to at least hint to the non-book readers that Jon isn't Deads For Reals? Because no book readers can possibly believe he's not simply temporarily pining for the fjords.
posted by Justinian at 1:06 AM on June 4, 2015


Heh, I still hold out hope that Jon is dead for reals. It's not like there is a ton of reason to think he'll come back other than hope and narrative convention, which GRRM is fond of bucking.

(But I do think he'll come back.)
posted by painquale at 5:05 AM on June 4, 2015


Jon is TOOOOOTTALLY not dead.
posted by KathrynT at 8:11 AM on June 4, 2015


Heh, I still hold out hope that Jon is dead for reals.

I would love it if GURM did that, but I see problems ahead no matter which way he goes. If Jon is truly dead, there will be internet outrage over the fact that we "wasted" reading several thousand pages on Jon's story and all these questions about him, only to have him die. If Jon isn't dead and comes back (which seems to me to be the whole point of the prologue of ADwD, is to show how that will happen), there will be internet outrage over certain characters having plot armor and being Martin's favourites, etc., etc.

Personally, I think it would be awesome if Jon comes back as a wight and the entirety of his POV chapters from now on consists of "BRAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNS. Brains? Brains brains brains. Brain. Brains!"
posted by nubs at 8:30 AM on June 4, 2015 [4 favorites]


Moar D&D recaps, please? Pretty please?

Also, who the hell leaves all the dragonglass daggers in a sack instead of issuing them to the rest of the Watch?! Then Jon goes back in the burninating hall for the sack, has the sack, then drops the sack and leaves it there. YOU HAD ONE JOB, JON SNOW!

Re: Brienne breaking blades while Jon can't manage it — Brienne is almost certainly stronger than Jon Snow. Using myself as a reference point, I'm a tall woman who's a weightlifter and ex-fencing instructor. While I'm weak compared to, say, Hafthór Júlíus Björnsson, the strongman who plays The Mountain, I'm generally stronger than most men I meet who aren't weightlifters or strongmen. Like most fencers, I've broken a few blades. While it's not something you can plan on doing (it's not like breaking bricks in karate), it's easier to do than you think, even adjusting for the difference between blade types and construction; steel fatigues eventually, and if struck in just the right way, it'll snap. Brienne has the advantage of her greater height, mass, and lower-body strength; she simply generates more newtons of force on whatever she strikes than Jon does.

On preview, I, too, would like Jon POV chapters to consist of 'Braaaains…'
posted by culfinglin at 8:44 AM on June 4, 2015 [4 favorites]


Personally, I think it would be awesome if Jon comes back as a wight and the entirety of his POV chapters from now on consists of "BRAAAAAAAAAAAIIIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNNNS. Brains? Brains brains brains. Brain. Brains!"

Someone on reddit recently posted a cool theory about there being a secret second supernatural Night's Watch further north of the Wall. It might include Coldhands, Bloodraven, Bran, and maybe Benjen and Stonesnake and other Crows who went missing when ranging. Bloodraven can resurrect Jon to go on deep ops zombie missions.
posted by painquale at 8:57 AM on June 4, 2015 [5 favorites]


I wonder how much of Brienne's dormant Sansa plotline will be sidetracked by Stannis being just outside of Winterfell while Brienne also happens to be just outside of Winterfell. Her service to Catelyn, after all, was contingent on her being allowed to kill Stannis if the opportunity arose: "I think that when the time comes, you will not hold me back. Promise me that you will not hold me back from Stannis."

Then, perhaps there would be some ensuing wackiness in which there is Melisandre, Stannis, Brienne, Shireen, a big bonfire, and a flaming Valyrian Steel blade that gets promoted from Oathkeeper to Lightbringer. And possibly a remotely resurrected Jon Snow as a result of all that sacrificed king's blood. The flaming heart around antlers in Stannis's sigil is tugging at fate's irony strings just a little too hard; his death will be a warm one, I'd wager.
posted by tempestuoso at 9:22 AM on June 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


hahaha
posted by Drinky Die at 12:08 PM on June 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


OK, help me with the king's blood bit - that has nothing to do with resurrection, right? Because Thoros was bringing Beric back with no blood sacrifices at all. That's about waking a dragon from the stone, IIRC. Which seems to me to have been done; Dany woke them from their stone eggs on Khal (King) Drogo's funeral pyre, while she herself was reborn amidst salt and smoke under the sign of a bleeding star (and Jon's stabbing scene in the books contains a bleeding star, smoke, and salt as well...).

Could be that Melisandre's visions of Stannis were just that he would be the one to bring her to Azor Ahai, not that he was/is. She has a habit of misinterpreting what she sees.
posted by nubs at 12:12 PM on June 4, 2015


So there's a subthread going on in the show only post for this episode about why the Walkers/zombie army can't just sail around the wall. And I was midway through writing up a comment inspired by that when I realized that, really, I should get my readerly ass off the show-only thread.

So anyway: presumably the magic suppressing whatever-it-is that is embedded in the wall and keeps the White Walkers confined to the north also extends into the seas. And it's this whatever-it-is that (for example) keeps Coldhands from passing through the secret tunnel that Branndor and the Reeds use.

But thinking about that got me thinking about what makes the wall the Wall, with a capital W like that, and about how it's more than just a wall. Because it's more than just a wall, although zombies and ice spiders and giants and whatever might be able to climb over it, or sneak under it, I expect that if a White Walker tried to cross the Wall, by whatever means, at some point it would step across the anti-magic tripwire and explode into fragments, like it had been hit with Valyrian steel.

But nevertheless, clearly the Walkers intend to cross the wall. So now I'm thinking about what would really break the Internet: episode 10 ending not with ice spiders and climbing zombies swarming over the Wall, but instead with the whole fucking Wall coming down.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 12:21 PM on June 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


OK, I know it's linked in the sidebar, but the choice of song lyrics for Jorah's walk back into exile is inspired. Chrys Watches GOT
posted by nubs at 12:23 PM on June 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yeah, The Wall was built apparently at the end of the Long Night by Brandon the Builder (who also apparently built Winterfell, and there's been a couple of things that make me think Winterfell is another place that is warded/somewhat magical though I can't recall them right now). Built with the help of the Children of the Forest, it's supposed to be magically warded against the Walkers - and that's a point I wish they would make on the show (especially this episode), that the Wall wasn't build to keep the wildlings out (you don't need a fucking 700 ft Ice Wall for keeping out the riff-raff, you use stone and wood) it was built to keep the undead raising enemies of all life from knocking on your door. Mance (in the books) makes that pretty clear with Jon - he wants to get to the other side of the Wall because the damn thing was built to keep the Walkers away, and he doesn't want to use the Horn of Winter (which supposedly will bring down the Wall) for that very reason.

It does seem that dead things can cross the Wall, as we've had a few examples of wights in Castle Black and doesn't Jon at one point think about sealing up some of the dead in ice cells at the base of the Wall to watch them turn? But I suspect for the Walkers, it's some kind of mystical barrier that extends far beyond its physical incarnation.

Anyways, I don't know how you bring down the Wall in the show without a bit more backstory (which maybe next season's Backstory Gang (Bran, Bloodraven, etc) will bring) because if the Walkers drop it at the end of this season, my question would be "Well, why the fuck did they wait 8000 years to do it if they could, you know, just do that?" But I'm always up for more ice spiders.
posted by nubs at 12:42 PM on June 4, 2015


In the show, were the wildings looking for the horn that supposedly would bring down the wall?

My working theory is that the wall will come down, but not until sometime in season 6. My other guess is that if the Walkers don't have the horn, someone else has it and uses it (the working theory is that Euron's Dragonbinder horn is actually the wall horn, and that Sam's broken horn is the dragon one).
posted by drezdn at 1:52 PM on June 4, 2015


Jon being dead/staying dead would raise a couple problems.

From a narrative stand point, there wouldn't be POV at the Wall. That could be interesting, as the White Walker movements would be moved to background rumors until they start showing up in places like Winterfell (though now that I think about it, there's no POV in Winterfell now-- in the books).

The other problem is that Gurm spent five books building up the importance of ned's bastard, and while completely sweeping the character away would be cliche breaking, it would probably piss off a ton of readers.
posted by drezdn at 2:02 PM on June 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Definitely. If Jon dies it will be at the end, not before the climax of the series. Ned died, yes, but it was in the first book. Robb died, sure, but he wasn't even a viewpoint character (which people tend to forget given how front and center he was in the show). Both of those events worked well dramatically. Killing off Jon now would not work dramatically and would just piss off and alienate folks.

though now that I think about it, there's no POV in Winterfell now-- in the books

Theon.
posted by Justinian at 4:14 PM on June 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


oh you mean after the last book not during it.
posted by Justinian at 4:14 PM on June 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


tangent: I think GRRM has more or less openly said that the main reason Robb wasn't a POV character is because letting us inside his head in A Clash of Kings would have forced GRRM to tip his hand early about all the Stark children (and not just Bran) being wargs.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 5:26 PM on June 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Are they going to at least hint to the non-book readers that Jon isn't Deads For Reals?

Surely they have to. I'm very curious to see how they do it. In the books, there are several examples of POV characters who look as though they might have died, but don't (e.g. Tyrion at the Blackwater, Brienne when Lady Stoneheart hangs her). Then you get the misdirections (Bran and Rickon; Davos) of characters who are supposedly killed. So we're already primed to the idea that Jon being stabbed and everything going black doesn't necessarily mean he's dead. But the show doesn't do that to the same extent.

Book-readers have know that Melisandre's nearby and can resurrect people or that Jon can warg into Ghost. Then there's the LSH theory (Cat gets closure by resurrecting Jon). That's not in the show to the same extent (Jon hasn't warged, right? And Ghost has been much less present).

Maybe they hint it with shot/reverse-shots of Jon and Ghost? I suspect they'd need something stronger. Maybe some talk about warging earlier in the episode, to remind people?

If they don't hint it, though, surely people will work it out when they see Kit has been cast in Season 6?
posted by Pink Frost at 5:51 PM on June 4, 2015


Maybe they take the simplest route and show Jon stabbed and possibly mortally wounded but not dead, then they can work the warging or whatever into the first episode of next season.
posted by Justinian at 6:02 PM on June 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


The last shot of the last episode should be post-stabbing Jon opening his eyes. His brilliant blue eyes.
posted by You Can't Tip a Buick at 6:04 PM on June 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


Maybe Jon will warg into Stannis...
posted by nubs at 6:05 PM on June 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Maybe they take the simplest route and show Jon stabbed and possibly mortally wounded but not dead, then they can work the warging or whatever into the first episode of next season.

Heh, I do tend to over-complicate things...;-)

Last shot could be Jon stabbed, close-up on his face, his eyes slowly close....cut to black and an indie-folk version of The Rains of Castermere.

And then don't go to the Wall until episode two of season 6...
posted by Pink Frost at 6:07 PM on June 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Last shot could be Jon stabbed, close-up on his face, his eyes slowly close....cut to black and an indie-folk version of The Rains of Castermere.

And then don't go to the Wall until episode two of season 6...


At this point I'm assuming that the end of the series will be everybody who's still either alive or undead suddenly getting stabbed repeatedly by Lannisters and then Rains of Castamere plays over the credits
posted by clockzero at 6:18 PM on June 4, 2015 [1 favorite]


Maybe Jon will warg into Stannis...

Creating the fusion gem: Jannis, King of Gates and Doors
posted by drezdn at 7:15 PM on June 4, 2015 [6 favorites]


Creating the fusion gem: Jannis, King of Gates and Doors

But would the two-faced king have the favor or the enmity of the many-faced god? hmmm...
posted by torticat at 8:02 PM on June 4, 2015


nubs: Could be that Melisandre's visions of Stannis were just that he would be the one to bring her to Azor Ahai, not that he was/is. She has a habit of misinterpreting what she sees.


This got me to thinking.. what do we know about resurrection, the magic of the red god, and fire magic?

NB: This has all been written without reference to the wiki, because I value my soul

So the following resurrectees are present:
- Cat
- Sir DiesALot
- all dem wights

None of these required Kingsblood (that we know of, unless Robb counts for Cat?). Only one of them (Beric) required the actual intervention of a red priest.

Side-effects of self-raising power may include blueye, crankiness, and an inability to form lasting relationships

We also know that Dragon Hatching requires fire, and may require kings blood.

Tying all this together into Things we know, and Things Which Might Happen in the near future:
- Jon dies
- Stannis has a dragon egg
- Stannis dies (I really REALLY like the idea of Brienne carving a path to and through him, but it's unlikely in the books)
- Melisandre thinks Stannis is Azor Ahai

So, posit - shit gets Bad for stannis, and he decides that.. fuckit.. he'll sacrifice his kid (or himself) on the fire to raise the dragons, with Melisandre under instructions to raise him STRAIGHT AWAY damnit.

He does. Dragon hatches. Mel goes for the big lift and.. nothing happens.

...except Jon suddenly wakes up sitting on top of a recently-lit funeral bier. And BAM Azor Ahai is reborn, and has a nice fresh dragon to warg into.
posted by coriolisdave at 10:04 PM on June 4, 2015 [2 favorites]


Ok. On one side you have a huge wall made of ICE that has been there, blocking the nasties, for over 8000 years. On the other, you have three, newly hatched, not very well behaved, DRAGONS, that breathe fire. Somewhere....somehow....the two will meet. The story almost writes itself.
posted by pearlybob at 5:44 AM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


Coke goes with ice. Jon could teach the world to sing. (in perfect har-mo-ny)
posted by tilde at 7:06 AM on June 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


I have to keep myself from speculating so i won't be disappointed. Speculations I've never recovered from include:

- Harry Potter comes back to Hogwarts after realizing from his time training the DAs that he has a gift for teaching

- Angel sleeps with Cordy but DOESN'T lose his soul and Cordy has to leave because she can't handle that he can have a perfect moment with Buffy but not her

- and, the Star Wars prequels are better than expected

Disappointment is a tough pill to swallow.
posted by double bubble at 7:46 AM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


- Stannis has a dragon egg

He does? I've apparently missed something. I always thought Melisandre was taking the name of Dragonstone very, very literally when she talked about "waking a dragon from stone."
posted by nubs at 8:15 AM on June 5, 2015


Coke goes with ice. Jon could teach the world to sing. (in perfect har-mo-ny)

(Fade In, Jon's face)

Jon, begins singing:

"I'd like to buy the world a fort
And furnish it with trust"

(Pull back, Jon is surrounded by men of of the Night's Watch at the Fist of the First Men, who join in)
"Get Obsidian and Dragon Steel
And snow white direwolf pups"

(Continue pulling back, wildings join)

"I'd like to teach the world to sing
A Song of Ice and Fire"

(Continue pulling back - Stannis, Melisandre, Bran, the armies of the North revealed)
(Chorus)
"I'd like to buy the world an ale
And burn the Walkers whole
That's the real thing"

(Repeat chorus, continue pulling back - Lannisters, Tullys, Tyrells, Dornish)

"What the world needs today
Is a Dragon riding queen!"

(End shot, reveal Dany flying over all on Drogon; fade to black)

(Fade in, Don Draper standing in a board room. Also present - Roger, Pete, Peggy, D&D, GRRM, and some HBO suits)

Roger: Jesus, Don.

Don: It's the last season. You have to think big. No one in the world should want to miss an episode. They should be afraid to miss an episode.

D&D: But this budget...We'd have to cut out half of the effects shot we were planning for the finale...

Don: You want the eyeballs. You need the eyeballs. It's all about the spectacle. (Turns to the HBO suits). Find the money. You know you want this.

(HBO suits glance at each other, uneasy).

Peggy: We could always cut back somewhere. Maybe we don't need the Wildlings?

Don (intense): No, Peggy. We need the wildlings. Jon started building his alliances with the wildings, without them it doesn't make sense. It all builds on itself.

HBO execs: I thought we talked about wind. Blowing across a field; maybe a field of graves?

Don (intense): We needed to think bigger. A field of graves and wind, what is that? A bleak, hopeless ending to this saga? No; you need to go for hope and get the audience excited and thinking about the amazing possible ending, not the fact that everyone might die. They won't tune in if they think everyone is going to die.

(silence for a moment)

Pete: Well. I think we've given everyone something to think about. How about lunch?

GRRM: Oh yes, a nice lunch. Roast capon, dripping with grease. Boiled pease. Thick bread, with gravy. Bacon. Honeyed chicken. Turnips, soaked in butter...

Peggy (watching them leave): Just don't have the pork pie.

Roger: I hear they're lovely, Freyed.
posted by nubs at 8:53 AM on June 5, 2015 [10 favorites]


I don't think we've seen any dragon eggs besides the three given to Daenerys.

In the books:
-Euron ("Ser-Not-Appearing-In-This-Series") claims to have thrown an egg into the sea, but most likely gave it to the Faceless Men as payment for knocking off Balon.

-After the original line of dragons died out, the Targaryens retrieved old eggs from a clutch under Dragonstone and tried various desperate means of hatching them -- prayer, sorcery, laying them in the cradles of young Targs. (Maester Aemon received one of these cradle eggs in his infancy.) None of the Targaryen eggs have been seen since Robert's Rebellion.

-Brynden "Bloodraven" Rivers abstracted an egg from a rebellious lord during his tenure as Hand. The egg's whereabouts are unknown.

-Also unknown: whether there are more eggs under Dragonstone.

-Illyrio Mopatis claimed to have sourced his wedding present from the Shadow Lands in the utmost east. There's a possibility that Varys furnished him with some of the lost Targaryen eggs.
posted by Iridic at 9:03 AM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


WHAT

WHAT DID I JUST SEE

HOW DO I CONTINUE LIVING AFTER THAT MUCH AWESOME PLEASE ADVISE



brb catching up on thread now finally just watched it
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:42 AM on June 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


Tyrion: My own sister married someone she loathed as well, though not by choice and certainly not for the greater good, gods forbid. She ended up having him killed.
Dany: Perhaps it won't come to that.

Ah, I don't think he was suggesting Dany would have Hizdahr killed--I think he was warning/foreshadowing that he might have her killed, and I don't think she heard it. Unless "Perhaps it won't come to that" was her very dry way of acknowledging his point. I think it could go either way; she totally got him when he showed her how to thread the needle with Jorah (and I think part of why she took him on was that he didn't tell her the solution, he told her what the format of the solution needed to be and let her figure it out for itself; it was a very finely-honed way to show respect for someone's intelligence at the same time as indicating that one knows one doesn't simply tell absolute monarchs what to do, aaaaaand a good teaching moment too), and yet she completely failed to understand when he was talking about staying in Meereen. So whether she understood the Chekhov's Locust Hizdahr or not I can't figure out which it is.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:51 AM on June 5, 2015 [2 favorites]


Also I thought both conversations between Dany and Tyrion were fantastic.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:52 AM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Also I thought both conversations between Dany and Tyrion were fantastic.

Yeah, I enjoyed them as well and during the second one I had a moment where it really struck me how awesome it was to have Dany chatting with another major character/player in the series.
posted by nubs at 10:54 AM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


Tyrion realizing that he has a lot more work ahead of him than he thought was amazing.

I think Cersei broke long before licking up the water; it was when she talked about thinking of hideous ways for the septa (who was HI FUCKING LARIOUS in Pitch Perfect 2) to die that she admitted defeat.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:58 AM on June 5, 2015


Love your commentary, fffm.

So whether she understood the Chekhov's Locust Hizdahr or not I can't figure out which it is.

Maybe it's wishful thinking on my part but I don't think Dany misses anything. She's young, but she's also whip-smart and a quick study. I think we can assume she's fully absorbing every lesson she's given. I think the evidence in the show so far supports this.

On rewatch I liked the Tyrion/Dany interactions better. Still wish the conversation had crackled a bit more, but oh well.
posted by torticat at 12:10 PM on June 5, 2015


On rewatch I liked the Tyrion/Dany interactions better. Still wish the conversation had crackled a bit more, but oh well.

I had the sense of two smart, perceptive people working very hard to feel each other out and not give away much of anything at the same time; give them some time to get to know each other and I think the conversations will start to have some sizzle.
posted by nubs at 12:22 PM on June 5, 2015 [3 favorites]


Back in S2E1, this is what Melisandre said:

"In the ancient books, it's written that a warrior will draw a burning sword from the fire. And that sword shall be Lightbringer. Stannis Baratheon, Warrior of Light, your sword awaits you."

If you just consider that Brienne might be the warrior and/or Warrior, that changes the meaning considerably (i.e. Oathkeeper = Wick, Stannis = Tallow).

Or, in the unfortunate scenario where Shireen is sacrificed, she could just, literally, rise from the ashes as an adolescent dragon that eats everyone. Famous late-bloomer Sansa could warg into her, and after killing Ramsay and Melisandre, the Shireenasansasaur could fly down to the Eyrie, dine on Littlefinger, then fly up to the wall for white walker ice cream. "Little Bird" indeed. I like this idea, however corny and unlikely.
posted by tempestuoso at 2:07 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


I think the Tyrion/Dany interaction was supposed to show them both being wary and Tyrion at least trying to be on his best behavior. Which isn't all that good but at least he wasn't insulting anyone directly.
posted by Justinian at 4:45 PM on June 5, 2015 [1 favorite]


I need some stats on Longclaw.
posted by bq at 1:01 PM on June 7, 2015 [1 favorite]


Apparently, episode 9 posted early to some of the streaming services. The night is dark and full of spoilers.
posted by drezdn at 1:23 PM on June 7, 2015


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