The Flash: Flash vs. Arrow
December 2, 2014 11:25 PM - Season 1, Episode 8 - Subscribe
Central City meets Starling City! The Flash teams up with the Arrow to take on a rage-inducing, bank robbing metahuman.
I'm a regular Arrow watcher, and I haven't the foggiest. I'm 99.999% sure she's a new character (and judging by her phone call and Significant Look at Oliver as he walks out the door, a character that's about to make Ollie's life complicated.)
Apparently tonight's episode of Arrow is Part 2 of the crossover, so that might get clarified tonight.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:58 AM on December 3, 2014
Apparently tonight's episode of Arrow is Part 2 of the crossover, so that might get clarified tonight.
posted by soundguy99 at 5:58 AM on December 3, 2014
Which way were they hoping the crossover would direct viewers? I have not seen Arrow either, but his intro was way too Poochy (motorcycle! kewl mewvs! everyone In The Know likes me!) that I was immediately turned off. That boomerang was the equivalent of the fireworks factory that Itchy and Scratchy never get to. The tonal clash between Arrow's GRIMDARK and Flash's WHEEE was almost Gothamesque.
Rainbow Raider's (I mean Prism) powers could have been explained both more and less. Does he only make people angry? How come that rage seemed to be contagious at times but not at others? Why don't the enraged people immediately attack him? Still, if you want to have a No Fault Superhero Fight, you need someone to get mind controlled so I can understand why he was wheeled out.
I like that the show took a second to acknowledge that Captain Singh is still gay in his police officer version as he is in his lab director version in the comics. They didn't need to do that and did it a bit awkwardly, but I'm willing to forgive The Flash so much because its heart is in the right place.
Eddie is back in contention to be Reverse Flash - I can see him getting overwhelmed with hatred/jealousy and then getting a dose of speed juice or whatever synthesized from that power-stealy guy and heading back in time to end the Flash. This would still leave Wells as Professor Zoom, who would be setting the whole thing up in the first place.
I am unsure how I feel about Firestorm. If there's just one guy rattling around in his head, then I dunno. I can see why they'd do that, but still, more nuclear power less burny burny.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:19 AM on December 3, 2014
Rainbow Raider's (I mean Prism) powers could have been explained both more and less. Does he only make people angry? How come that rage seemed to be contagious at times but not at others? Why don't the enraged people immediately attack him? Still, if you want to have a No Fault Superhero Fight, you need someone to get mind controlled so I can understand why he was wheeled out.
I like that the show took a second to acknowledge that Captain Singh is still gay in his police officer version as he is in his lab director version in the comics. They didn't need to do that and did it a bit awkwardly, but I'm willing to forgive The Flash so much because its heart is in the right place.
Eddie is back in contention to be Reverse Flash - I can see him getting overwhelmed with hatred/jealousy and then getting a dose of speed juice or whatever synthesized from that power-stealy guy and heading back in time to end the Flash. This would still leave Wells as Professor Zoom, who would be setting the whole thing up in the first place.
I am unsure how I feel about Firestorm. If there's just one guy rattling around in his head, then I dunno. I can see why they'd do that, but still, more nuclear power less burny burny.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 6:19 AM on December 3, 2014
who's the woman who came into the cafe at the end, that Oliver recognized?
She was shown in flashbacks in one previous episode of Arrow - she's a girl who Oliver got knocked up back in his careless reckless playboy days. Oliver's mom covered the whole thing up - paid off the girl to move out of Starling City and to tell Oliver the she'd lost the pregnancy. Apparently she moved to Central City, and presumably, although Oliver doesn't know it, her kid that she phoned to say she was bringing hot chocolate to is actually his kid. Don't know if it'll actually be relevant in any immediate future episodes but it was nice to see the writers actually keep track of some of these seemingly-dropped loose ends.
Anyways, as a fan of both shows I really enjoyed the episode. There was definitely some tonal clash but they were very aware of it, playing with it, and more than willing to milk it for humor (the back and forth over the naming conventions for supervillains cracked me up, as did Oliver's "I'm not calling them that" about metahumans) which made it work for me, and was far less jarring than if Arrow had showed up and arbitrarily been light and goofy for no reason other than currently being in the Starling City limits. The more jarring thing to me was wrapping up the whole Prism/Rainbow Raider plotline basically between scenes - return from commercial break and there he is, in prison - just felt like the writers ran out of time to fit in everything they wanted to fit into the episode. (At least the boomerang will presumably be relevant in tonight's Arrow, so they will get back to it at some point, otherwise that, too, would be just a wtf plot point they never got back to.)
posted by mstokes650 at 6:54 AM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
She was shown in flashbacks in one previous episode of Arrow - she's a girl who Oliver got knocked up back in his careless reckless playboy days. Oliver's mom covered the whole thing up - paid off the girl to move out of Starling City and to tell Oliver the she'd lost the pregnancy. Apparently she moved to Central City, and presumably, although Oliver doesn't know it, her kid that she phoned to say she was bringing hot chocolate to is actually his kid. Don't know if it'll actually be relevant in any immediate future episodes but it was nice to see the writers actually keep track of some of these seemingly-dropped loose ends.
Anyways, as a fan of both shows I really enjoyed the episode. There was definitely some tonal clash but they were very aware of it, playing with it, and more than willing to milk it for humor (the back and forth over the naming conventions for supervillains cracked me up, as did Oliver's "I'm not calling them that" about metahumans) which made it work for me, and was far less jarring than if Arrow had showed up and arbitrarily been light and goofy for no reason other than currently being in the Starling City limits. The more jarring thing to me was wrapping up the whole Prism/Rainbow Raider plotline basically between scenes - return from commercial break and there he is, in prison - just felt like the writers ran out of time to fit in everything they wanted to fit into the episode. (At least the boomerang will presumably be relevant in tonight's Arrow, so they will get back to it at some point, otherwise that, too, would be just a wtf plot point they never got back to.)
posted by mstokes650 at 6:54 AM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Yeah, multiple sources say the boomerang will be important tonight.
And I'm with mstokes650 that the episode did a pretty good job merging the two shows (Arrow's not entirely humorless, although usually it's Felicity being Totes Awkward.) Also that the Prism wrapup was entirely an "Oooops, we're out of time" situation.
I loved the Clock King.
This just occurred to me - I wonder if Oliver's kid is going to be a complication for Ollie in Arrow, or a complication for Barry as the Flash. As in, Barry finds out that Ollie's secret kid is living in Central, which adds another person to the list of people he feels personally responsible for protecting.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:13 AM on December 3, 2014
And I'm with mstokes650 that the episode did a pretty good job merging the two shows (Arrow's not entirely humorless, although usually it's Felicity being Totes Awkward.) Also that the Prism wrapup was entirely an "Oooops, we're out of time" situation.
I loved the Clock King.
This just occurred to me - I wonder if Oliver's kid is going to be a complication for Ollie in Arrow, or a complication for Barry as the Flash. As in, Barry finds out that Ollie's secret kid is living in Central, which adds another person to the list of people he feels personally responsible for protecting.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:13 AM on December 3, 2014
This episode had some problems - as the rest of you mentioned, I found the capture of Prism over a commercial break disappointing, and I'm not sure how to feel about Ronnie coming back as Crazy Burning Homeless Dude.
Also, Iris was back to being The Load, and that's vexing. It's hard to believe a cop's child would be surprised by police officers wanting to take down a vigilante, especially one with so much power. Moreover, I can totally see why Eddie wouldn't believe in the Flash's good intentions, but it's not like Iris didn't hear what Prism could do to people. I really hope Barry takes Ollie's advice and just drops the whole thing with her.
Oh, and after last week's discussion, I found them gloating about their respective jails at the end pretty jarring. I could see Cisco not thinking it through, but it feels like someone should be.
That said, I really loved the Ollie/Barry stuff. Making Ollie shooting Barry in the back a recurring gag was hilarious, and I liked that it was pretty clear Ollie only stood a chance because Barry refused to take him - or anything - too seriously. I also enjoyed that Barry *is* angry and repressing it.
I also loved Wells figuring out Ollie's secret ID in virtually no time at all, (because duh), and that Ollie picked up on him being creepy, (also duh). I'm looking forward to the Wells thing coming to a head in the season finale, or wherever it's planned to.
I loved the Clock King.
Me too. Clock King was pretty great.
posted by mordax at 9:41 AM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
Also, Iris was back to being The Load, and that's vexing. It's hard to believe a cop's child would be surprised by police officers wanting to take down a vigilante, especially one with so much power. Moreover, I can totally see why Eddie wouldn't believe in the Flash's good intentions, but it's not like Iris didn't hear what Prism could do to people. I really hope Barry takes Ollie's advice and just drops the whole thing with her.
Oh, and after last week's discussion, I found them gloating about their respective jails at the end pretty jarring. I could see Cisco not thinking it through, but it feels like someone should be.
That said, I really loved the Ollie/Barry stuff. Making Ollie shooting Barry in the back a recurring gag was hilarious, and I liked that it was pretty clear Ollie only stood a chance because Barry refused to take him - or anything - too seriously. I also enjoyed that Barry *is* angry and repressing it.
I also loved Wells figuring out Ollie's secret ID in virtually no time at all, (because duh), and that Ollie picked up on him being creepy, (also duh). I'm looking forward to the Wells thing coming to a head in the season finale, or wherever it's planned to.
I loved the Clock King.
Me too. Clock King was pretty great.
posted by mordax at 9:41 AM on December 3, 2014 [2 favorites]
I found the Prism's off-camera defeat jarring as well, but someone in the Badass Digest comments had a neat take: "I thought that was really badass and funny. Like, once Arrow and Flash are working together, capturing the villain is so easy/trivial they don't even have to bother showing it."
posted by brundlefly at 11:42 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
posted by brundlefly at 11:42 AM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
Also, Iris was back to being The Load, and that's vexing... I really hope Barry takes Ollie's advice and just drops the whole thing with her.
Agreed.
posted by homunculus at 12:19 PM on December 3, 2014
Agreed.
posted by homunculus at 12:19 PM on December 3, 2014
Our cable had an issue right when Arrow and Flash were heading out for Great Justice, so when things cleared up and Prism was in a cell, I figured I just missed a super efficient montage.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:49 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by robocop is bleeding at 1:49 PM on December 3, 2014
Okay, maybe I'm just dumb but I just realized the joke with Prism's first name: Roy G. Bivolo.
As in Roy G. Biv.
I'm just the last one to the party there, aren't I?
posted by brundlefly at 3:19 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
As in Roy G. Biv.
I'm just the last one to the party there, aren't I?
posted by brundlefly at 3:19 PM on December 3, 2014 [1 favorite]
this episode was difficult to watch. I'm not sure if ill keep up with the show if they keep being so dull and hammy. maybe i am spoiled by SHIELD and community but this is really bad story telling, I think.
posted by rebent at 4:57 PM on December 3, 2014
posted by rebent at 4:57 PM on December 3, 2014
I'm putting spoilers for "The Brave and the Bold" Arrow ep in this comment, because it's a crossover ep, why bother to make a new thread?
Anyway. My face hurts from smiling so hard for 2 days about this crossover. FLAILFLAILKEYBOARDSMASH. But before I gush about OMG SUPERHERO TEAMUP, I want to gush about an overshadowed and outstanding story element of "The Brave and the Bold": Oliver, Amanda Waller, and torture.
The torture mission was never about collecting information. Waller uses it as a standard tool to manipulate agents toward "extreme measures" until they break—because an agent who will torture for Waller will do anything for her.
Oliver has been killing himself by hurting people for years, all for nothing. It's horrifying.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:08 PM on December 3, 2014
Anyway. My face hurts from smiling so hard for 2 days about this crossover. FLAILFLAILKEYBOARDSMASH. But before I gush about OMG SUPERHERO TEAMUP, I want to gush about an overshadowed and outstanding story element of "The Brave and the Bold": Oliver, Amanda Waller, and torture.
The torture mission was never about collecting information. Waller uses it as a standard tool to manipulate agents toward "extreme measures" until they break—because an agent who will torture for Waller will do anything for her.
Oliver has been killing himself by hurting people for years, all for nothing. It's horrifying.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:08 PM on December 3, 2014
Put me down for the minority position on the off-screen capture - I liked the willingness to say to the audience that a take-down could be done in a way that was so uninteresting that there's no need to share it. It's also in line with Ollie's repeatedly telling Barry that he's working harder faster, not smarter.
The only flaw I saw in it was that if they're going to dump him in the cell fully conscious there should have been some visual cue that they were suppressing/defeating his power somehow. "Just don't look him in the eye" doesn't really work there.
I'm with the apparent majority here in wishing there'd been SOMEONE saying "hey, uh, this secret permanent prison thing..." Doing it to someone as incorrigible and with a long record like Deathstroke, with Waller's help/support? I can live with it. Three folks in a condemned experimental facility, less a fan.
posted by phearlez at 8:47 AM on December 4, 2014
The only flaw I saw in it was that if they're going to dump him in the cell fully conscious there should have been some visual cue that they were suppressing/defeating his power somehow. "Just don't look him in the eye" doesn't really work there.
I'm with the apparent majority here in wishing there'd been SOMEONE saying "hey, uh, this secret permanent prison thing..." Doing it to someone as incorrigible and with a long record like Deathstroke, with Waller's help/support? I can live with it. Three folks in a condemned experimental facility, less a fan.
posted by phearlez at 8:47 AM on December 4, 2014
wishing there'd been SOMEONE saying "hey, uh, this secret permanent prison thing...
Especially after all that moralizing about the Arrow's methods. "This guy tortures people! ... Welp, time to put someone else away in our little hidey-hole."
It's been a while since Wells has shanked anyone. I wonder if he's getting antsy.
posted by ODiV at 11:33 AM on December 4, 2014
Especially after all that moralizing about the Arrow's methods. "This guy tortures people! ... Welp, time to put someone else away in our little hidey-hole."
It's been a while since Wells has shanked anyone. I wonder if he's getting antsy.
posted by ODiV at 11:33 AM on December 4, 2014
Oh yeah, and I thought this was a nice episode except for the Red Kryptonite thing. If the only way to put The Flash in danger is to somehow sap his powers or alter his mind and we need The Flash to be in danger every episode so that there's some sense of challenge, then I don't know where that leaves us.
The clash of personalities between the two heroes was pretty great. Getting kind of sick of quirky attractive white guy backed up by women/minority team though.
posted by ODiV at 11:41 AM on December 4, 2014
The clash of personalities between the two heroes was pretty great. Getting kind of sick of quirky attractive white guy backed up by women/minority team though.
posted by ODiV at 11:41 AM on December 4, 2014
That was a fun episode! And it was neat to realize while watching that a little indie band a friend used to be in (Hooded Fang) was on the soundtrack.
posted by sevenyearlurk at 3:51 PM on December 6, 2014
posted by sevenyearlurk at 3:51 PM on December 6, 2014
Put me in the camp of liking that they got the guy off screen. I thought it was a fun episode and surprisingly not bad for a crossover (crossovers in comics are often terrible, particularly the more things they drag in, and the crossover with the MCU pretty much ruined the first season of Agents of SHIELD). It didn't really advance anything, but it did cover the stylistic clash between the heroes nicely.
Also, for all that I see why Iris and Barry had to be put on the outs the way they are for plot reasons, and I'm not sure enough where Eddie is going that I can predict, the will-they-won't-they-when-will-they is no more fun here than it was in Arrow, where it's consistently been the weakest part of the show. And that's apart from the foster-sibling schtick. When Iris is doing her own thing, she's great. When she's acting as the plot object known as Barry's Love Interest, she's boring.
posted by immlass at 4:36 PM on December 6, 2014
Also, for all that I see why Iris and Barry had to be put on the outs the way they are for plot reasons, and I'm not sure enough where Eddie is going that I can predict, the will-they-won't-they-when-will-they is no more fun here than it was in Arrow, where it's consistently been the weakest part of the show. And that's apart from the foster-sibling schtick. When Iris is doing her own thing, she's great. When she's acting as the plot object known as Barry's Love Interest, she's boring.
posted by immlass at 4:36 PM on December 6, 2014
Probably not a good thing that Cisco and I were on the same wavelength with the fear, anger and suffering.
Also I like how Diggle is absolutely unsettled by The Flash. And Oliver has no idea on training except pain.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:01 AM on December 9, 2014
Also I like how Diggle is absolutely unsettled by The Flash. And Oliver has no idea on training except pain.
posted by the man of twists and turns at 12:01 AM on December 9, 2014
I'm rewatching this, and it's really a well-written episode. Funny, only corny on purpose and in a good way, and some genuinely original lines.
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:30 PM on January 4, 2015
posted by George_Spiggott at 8:30 PM on January 4, 2015
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posted by dnash at 4:45 AM on December 3, 2014