Saturday Night Live: Adele / H.E.R.
October 25, 2020 2:36 AM - Season 46, Episode 4 - Subscribe
Adele's first time hosting.
- Cold Open - Presidential Debate: Maya Rudolph, Jim Carrey, Alec Baldwin
- Monologue: Adele, Kenan Thompson
- Psychic: Adele, Bowen Yang, Kate McKinnon, Ego Nwodim, Heidi Gardner
- The Haunted Manor: Pete Davidson, Adele
- The Bachelor: Beck Bennett, Heidi Gardner, Adele, Chloe Fineman, Lauren Holt
- Trump Addicts: Kenan Thompson, Melissa Villaseñor, Bowen Yang, Ego Nwodim, Punkie Johnson, Alex Moffatt, Pete Davidson, Beck Bennett, Andrew Dismukes
- H.E.R. - Damage
- Weekend Update: Michael Che, Colin Jost
- Melissa Villaseñor
- Village People: Kenan Thompson, Chris Redd, Andrew Dismukes, Bowen Yang, Beck Bennett, Alex Moffatt
- Nursing Home Visit: Chris Redd, Ego Nwodim, Pete Davidson, Adele, Maya Rudolph, Lauren Holt
- Tourism Board of Africa: Kate McKinnon, Adele, Heidi Gardner
- H.E.R. - Hold On
- Ass Angel Perfume Jeans: Maya Rudolph, Adele, Beck Bennett
i don't like the debate spoofs. Carrey's Biden isn't clicking. It's stunt casting. I hope SNL can find a regular to play Biden if/when he wins.
Funniest for me was Adele losing it during the Africa skit, while Kate and Heidi rolled w/it and stayed in character
posted by jazon at 6:28 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Funniest for me was Adele losing it during the Africa skit, while Kate and Heidi rolled w/it and stayed in character
posted by jazon at 6:28 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
I was able to sit through the entire cold open, which I couldn't last week, so it's not the worst one I've ever seen. But I'm still onboard with ditching Carrey and whoever's writing their Biden.
Other notes:
-"Tourism Board of Africa" made me profoundly uncomfortable (even with Adele's adorable corpsing).
-Keenan's "you can say anything you want as long as it's in a song" during WU feels like a callback to something, but I don't know what.
posted by Mogur at 6:32 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Other notes:
-"Tourism Board of Africa" made me profoundly uncomfortable (even with Adele's adorable corpsing).
-Keenan's "you can say anything you want as long as it's in a song" during WU feels like a callback to something, but I don't know what.
posted by Mogur at 6:32 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Bring back Jason Sudekis for Biden. He would nail it.
posted by museum of fire ants at 6:49 AM on October 25, 2020 [11 favorites]
posted by museum of fire ants at 6:49 AM on October 25, 2020 [11 favorites]
A solid episode with a terrible cold open.
Carrey just sucks as BIden. There is almost nothing about him that is even remotely accurate and it's obvious they're trying to make both candidates look equally bad which... no. I know they're not a partisan show, nor should they be, but c'mon, man. Biden has his quirks but it's just no comparison.
I love Maya to death but she was in what, three sketches? Is she a cast member again? Where was Cecily? How about we let the cast do stuff and keep the guests as guests.
I didn't know much about Adele before this show. I'd heard her hits, I mean how could you not, and knew she was a solid singer but I didn't really know anything about her personality and I'd never heard her speak before. I thought she did an amazing job. The monologue was short but solid, she was good in everything she was in, and her breaking up in the Africa sketch was adorable.
Speaking of the Africa sketch... is that a thing? Are divorced wine moms heading off to African countries to bang tribesmen? Was that commercial a parody? I didn't quite get it. Like the Your Voice Chicago sketch from last week I was wondering if I was just missing a reference to something.
The Psychic sketch was fun but it felt a but like they just compiles a bunch of "can you imagine explaining 2020 to someone in 2019" tweets into a sketch. Kate was great in it though.
Not much to say about H.E.R. other than I loved seeing her wail on that guitar in the second performance.
I thought this was the best episode of the season so far.
Carrey sucks as Biden.
posted by bondcliff at 8:19 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Carrey just sucks as BIden. There is almost nothing about him that is even remotely accurate and it's obvious they're trying to make both candidates look equally bad which... no. I know they're not a partisan show, nor should they be, but c'mon, man. Biden has his quirks but it's just no comparison.
I love Maya to death but she was in what, three sketches? Is she a cast member again? Where was Cecily? How about we let the cast do stuff and keep the guests as guests.
I didn't know much about Adele before this show. I'd heard her hits, I mean how could you not, and knew she was a solid singer but I didn't really know anything about her personality and I'd never heard her speak before. I thought she did an amazing job. The monologue was short but solid, she was good in everything she was in, and her breaking up in the Africa sketch was adorable.
Speaking of the Africa sketch... is that a thing? Are divorced wine moms heading off to African countries to bang tribesmen? Was that commercial a parody? I didn't quite get it. Like the Your Voice Chicago sketch from last week I was wondering if I was just missing a reference to something.
The Psychic sketch was fun but it felt a but like they just compiles a bunch of "can you imagine explaining 2020 to someone in 2019" tweets into a sketch. Kate was great in it though.
Not much to say about H.E.R. other than I loved seeing her wail on that guitar in the second performance.
I thought this was the best episode of the season so far.
Carrey sucks as Biden.
posted by bondcliff at 8:19 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Ok I legit guffawed at Trump addicts of America.
posted by gaspode at 9:13 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by gaspode at 9:13 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
I think this was the best episode so far this season, though I really missed Aidy Bryant and Cecily Strong. I wonder why they weren't on...? Adele was terrific! She really played characters, not just herself reading lines off of cue cards. Obviously the writers catered to her personality and wrote things she could handle, but nothing wrong with that.
I actually think Jim Carrey is getting better at playing Biden, he's honestly no worse than Alec Baldwin, they both mostly just mug for the camera. But the writing is not very good when it comes to the political stuff. When reality is so f***ing absurd I guess it's hard to write parodies/satire.
Melissa Villaseñor's segment I thought was really funny. She's great at impressions. Wish they gave her more to do.
posted by pjsky at 9:28 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
I actually think Jim Carrey is getting better at playing Biden, he's honestly no worse than Alec Baldwin, they both mostly just mug for the camera. But the writing is not very good when it comes to the political stuff. When reality is so f***ing absurd I guess it's hard to write parodies/satire.
Melissa Villaseñor's segment I thought was really funny. She's great at impressions. Wish they gave her more to do.
posted by pjsky at 9:28 AM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
I actually think Jim Carrey is getting better at playing Biden
I could see that Carrey was emphasizing more of Biden's "come on!" attitude this week. I agree, I think it was a better take than last week.
I'm also sympathetic to anyone who is feeling a bit tetchy about any little thing that could possibly tip the scales this election. Anxiety over the real world makes this iteration of SNL hard to watch; I'm worried about the knock-on effects of lazy, bothsidesy satire.
posted by ishmael at 10:13 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
I could see that Carrey was emphasizing more of Biden's "come on!" attitude this week. I agree, I think it was a better take than last week.
I'm also sympathetic to anyone who is feeling a bit tetchy about any little thing that could possibly tip the scales this election. Anxiety over the real world makes this iteration of SNL hard to watch; I'm worried about the knock-on effects of lazy, bothsidesy satire.
posted by ishmael at 10:13 AM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
Are Adele and Lottie (GBBO) from the same place? They have the same British twang.
I liked “Ass Angel Jeans,” but I hold the minority opinion in my household. Others claim that it was “too weird.”
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 11:46 AM on October 25, 2020
I liked “Ass Angel Jeans,” but I hold the minority opinion in my household. Others claim that it was “too weird.”
posted by Don.Kinsayder at 11:46 AM on October 25, 2020
I used to defend Carrey's Biden, but I'm done. Not effective, and the cold opens have been feeling overlong all season.
If I was writing that opener, I would have gone with Trump just fabricating ever more egregious and absurd lies and mirroring Trump's own guilt on Biden instead of giving Carrey lines just because Carrey is a stunt cast and "deserves" the lines.
Hoping that the writers are just milking US politics as easy time fillers and that if Biden wins, they scale back politics to essentially zero unless something specific or iconic happens (see 'Trump Addicts').
Jost's in-hindsight advice to Biden regarding the 2nd debate... isn't wrong. 'Weekend Update' on point in general this week.
Villaseñor amazing as usual, digging her choice of hair colouring and giving her grey streak a chance.
Loved the YMCA mini skit.
Adele a good sport throughout. Didn't mind her bursting into song at the drop of a hat as the gag.
'Tourism Board' - Adele is currently dating a Nigerian performer, Skepta, so... still extraordinarily tone deaf and problematic.
posted by porpoise at 12:05 PM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
If I was writing that opener, I would have gone with Trump just fabricating ever more egregious and absurd lies and mirroring Trump's own guilt on Biden instead of giving Carrey lines just because Carrey is a stunt cast and "deserves" the lines.
Hoping that the writers are just milking US politics as easy time fillers and that if Biden wins, they scale back politics to essentially zero unless something specific or iconic happens (see 'Trump Addicts').
Jost's in-hindsight advice to Biden regarding the 2nd debate... isn't wrong. 'Weekend Update' on point in general this week.
Villaseñor amazing as usual, digging her choice of hair colouring and giving her grey streak a chance.
Loved the YMCA mini skit.
Adele a good sport throughout. Didn't mind her bursting into song at the drop of a hat as the gag.
'Tourism Board' - Adele is currently dating a Nigerian performer, Skepta, so... still extraordinarily tone deaf and problematic.
posted by porpoise at 12:05 PM on October 25, 2020 [2 favorites]
Nothing really to say about the cold open that we haven't already complained about in the previous episodes this season. Otherwise a pretty solid episode.
Usually, The Bachelor sketches, and sketches where the hosts play fictionalized versions of themselves point to writers working around a weak host, and maybe that's the case here, but it was a fun break from their usual Bachelor formula. Chad gets used sparingly enough that he hasn't worn out his welcome for me, so hopefully this is not the end of him. The last sketch was a proper oddball last sketch of the night. Village People gag was fun
The psychic sketch was fun, but I'm pretty sure someone from 2019 could make a pretty good guess of how they would come to know the name of and despise the postmaster general. And as much fun as it was watching Adele completely fail to keep it together, the Africa sketch was still a bad idea. I'm sure the Trump Addicts bit is exactly what Donald Trump thinks of all of his haters, but everyone I know really looks forward to not having to care about him at all.
I don't really have anything to say about H.E.R. except that I enjoyed, uh, her.
posted by ckape at 12:13 PM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
Usually, The Bachelor sketches, and sketches where the hosts play fictionalized versions of themselves point to writers working around a weak host, and maybe that's the case here, but it was a fun break from their usual Bachelor formula. Chad gets used sparingly enough that he hasn't worn out his welcome for me, so hopefully this is not the end of him. The last sketch was a proper oddball last sketch of the night. Village People gag was fun
The psychic sketch was fun, but I'm pretty sure someone from 2019 could make a pretty good guess of how they would come to know the name of and despise the postmaster general. And as much fun as it was watching Adele completely fail to keep it together, the Africa sketch was still a bad idea. I'm sure the Trump Addicts bit is exactly what Donald Trump thinks of all of his haters, but everyone I know really looks forward to not having to care about him at all.
I don't really have anything to say about H.E.R. except that I enjoyed, uh, her.
posted by ckape at 12:13 PM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
though I really missed Aidy Bryant and Cecily Strong. I wonder why they weren't on...?
They're both filming other projects right now and will be back soon!
posted by Ruki at 12:46 PM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
They're both filming other projects right now and will be back soon!
posted by Ruki at 12:46 PM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
They ought to bring back Jason Sudeikis's Joe Biden. He was my favorite Biden. The spirit of Chase's Gerald Ford inhabited that Biden.
posted by Stanczyk at 1:20 PM on October 25, 2020 [5 favorites]
posted by Stanczyk at 1:20 PM on October 25, 2020 [5 favorites]
I thought the Psychic sketch was GREAT. It was easy to write I'm sure, but the contrast it pointed out was powerful. The Postmaster line was a little over the top, but the Mystery Reason behind all of the predictions was a great device.
The tourism sketch...I had the impression Heidi was getting annoyed at Adele's breaking, perhaps exacerbated by misgivings about the sketch itself. Not sure who the audience for that one was supposed to be except for maybe Black people? Hard to say, but I'm a white guy so I could be blind to it.
Two lines of the night were the Bachelor's, "When I was in high school I threw a shopping cart at a gay kid's head, but now I'm here, ready to find love" captured the source material for those shows perfectly, and Kenan's "What would we do without Adele?" in the monologue was a good dig.
"Why so much Maya?" seems to be a common question today. I think she's a little too self-assured for the cast, so either she should be reined in by the writers a bit or used more sparingly. Nursing Home Visit was a real stemwinder.
posted by rhizome at 2:21 PM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
The tourism sketch...I had the impression Heidi was getting annoyed at Adele's breaking, perhaps exacerbated by misgivings about the sketch itself. Not sure who the audience for that one was supposed to be except for maybe Black people? Hard to say, but I'm a white guy so I could be blind to it.
Two lines of the night were the Bachelor's, "When I was in high school I threw a shopping cart at a gay kid's head, but now I'm here, ready to find love" captured the source material for those shows perfectly, and Kenan's "What would we do without Adele?" in the monologue was a good dig.
"Why so much Maya?" seems to be a common question today. I think she's a little too self-assured for the cast, so either she should be reined in by the writers a bit or used more sparingly. Nursing Home Visit was a real stemwinder.
posted by rhizome at 2:21 PM on October 25, 2020 [1 favorite]
One of more infuriating moments in the cold open was when Giuliani (McKinnon) laid-out the high points of the Hunter Biden laptop story, and then the moderator asks Biden would like to respond. The camera cuts to Biden (Carrey) arguing with himself in his head, and then lowers his head as if he’s just been caught in a lie by his mom and mournfully replies “No.” It sure looked and felt like Carrey played it as if Biden was guilty somehow.
posted by Thorzdad at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by Thorzdad at 2:46 PM on October 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
I watched this one, after giving last week a pass. I'd declared myself done with this show after a lifetime as a regular viewer, but there it was on the DVR and I couldn't stay away. It was... OK. Better than previous episodes this season, which is kind of a low bar.
Carrey is just badly miscast. He excels at rubbery, grotesque, manic characters, but that's simply not Biden. Carrey can also be very good at grounded, realistic characters, but that's certainly not why SNL brought him on. I think they were flummoxed by how to portray Biden and they said, "We know Jim Carrey is amazing. Let's give him the part and maybe he'll turn it into something." And he can't manage it. Woody Harrelson and Sudekis both had a handle on Biden as kind of an aging, slightly addled rascal, like a high school principal who has to be reminded that you really shouldn't do "finger guns" at the students anymore. Carrey is a force of nature, and asking him to play Biden is like trying to fit a cheetah's paw into a comfy slipper.
The African tourism sketch was weird as hell, but you can kind of throw it on the pile of confusing, icky sketches from this era of the show where, A), white women (especially blondes) are the most privileged, awful people in the world, B), men's bodies are grossly objectified, and C), you have to know who wrote it before you know if it's racist or not. This sketch accomplished the rare feat of mashing up all three tropes. At least this time the women weren't hypocritical, clueless feminists.
I suspect we've seen the last of Chad. I get the feeling Pete was really eager to kill off the character, like Harrison Ford with Han Solo. (Although it's not like Pete has many other characters to choose from!) Pete looked so haggard in the Chad sketch I honestly thought there'd be some reveal that he was a ghost already. Dude, get some sleep!
Last season Fred Armisen was on the show so much he was essentially a cast member again. This season it's Maya. If they can't write sketches worthy of this moment, I guess they figure they can goose the ratings with nostalgia and star power.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:34 PM on October 25, 2020
Carrey is just badly miscast. He excels at rubbery, grotesque, manic characters, but that's simply not Biden. Carrey can also be very good at grounded, realistic characters, but that's certainly not why SNL brought him on. I think they were flummoxed by how to portray Biden and they said, "We know Jim Carrey is amazing. Let's give him the part and maybe he'll turn it into something." And he can't manage it. Woody Harrelson and Sudekis both had a handle on Biden as kind of an aging, slightly addled rascal, like a high school principal who has to be reminded that you really shouldn't do "finger guns" at the students anymore. Carrey is a force of nature, and asking him to play Biden is like trying to fit a cheetah's paw into a comfy slipper.
The African tourism sketch was weird as hell, but you can kind of throw it on the pile of confusing, icky sketches from this era of the show where, A), white women (especially blondes) are the most privileged, awful people in the world, B), men's bodies are grossly objectified, and C), you have to know who wrote it before you know if it's racist or not. This sketch accomplished the rare feat of mashing up all three tropes. At least this time the women weren't hypocritical, clueless feminists.
I suspect we've seen the last of Chad. I get the feeling Pete was really eager to kill off the character, like Harrison Ford with Han Solo. (Although it's not like Pete has many other characters to choose from!) Pete looked so haggard in the Chad sketch I honestly thought there'd be some reveal that he was a ghost already. Dude, get some sleep!
Last season Fred Armisen was on the show so much he was essentially a cast member again. This season it's Maya. If they can't write sketches worthy of this moment, I guess they figure they can goose the ratings with nostalgia and star power.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:34 PM on October 25, 2020
It's funny, I'm watching the Biden interview on 60 Minutes and it's so apparent what Carrey is missing: the serious and earnest eye-to-eye Biden. The thing is, he's done that character before. He could draw on Eternal Sunshine, Truman Show, and Yes Man (among others?), all roles where he he to convince and communicate more than mug, rant, and jaw. There's so much more than "c'mon man" and Clint Eastwood that Carrey already knows how to do. Maybe it's from being off TV for so long, I don't know, but he seems to be devaluing the last 25 years of his career in his return to the tube.
posted by rhizome at 7:59 PM on October 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 7:59 PM on October 25, 2020 [3 favorites]
Maybe it's from being off TV for so long, I don't know...
Maybe he's just not a Biden fan? Or really into both-siderism?
posted by Thorzdad at 4:40 AM on October 26, 2020
Maybe he's just not a Biden fan? Or really into both-siderism?
posted by Thorzdad at 4:40 AM on October 26, 2020
Yeah I thought it was clear that Carrey had finally taken some notes about Biden from other people because this Biden was a lot more recognizable though I do agree I'd still prefer that he not be the guy playing him. The cold open was just weirdly dull. I did not watch the debate it was based on so many more jokes would have landed if so, but it just seemed like a lot of Trump-y blowhardedness and racism and then Biden being a little spacey and "Come on guy!!" and Maya playing it kinda straight.
I liked this episode better than the others this season though, even though I missed Kyle, Cecily and Aidy. I was pleasantly surprised at Adeles general ability to do comedy stuff and I thought the Psychic sketch was strong (though agree, pretty easy to write) and it ended with one of those twist-type jokes which I always appreciate. The Village People bit on the news just cracked me up (and I wasn't sure of Kenan's "you can say anything..." aside either) seeing all the guys do their dancing best (Mikey Day was really selling it as Cowboy Man) and even though I think Melissa's desk bit didn't really have much of an arc, it's good to see her doing voices again. Weekend Update was solid.
Nursing Home and Africa both didn't work for me but some of the Internet Arguments about the Africa sketch ("they said Jamaica is in Africa, those stupid idiots!") were maybe the point of it? As someone who works with older people a lot I find a lot of the SNL "old people" characters to be kind of tropey and unfunny but that may just be a personal thing.
H.E.R was great, had not seen her much before and enjoyed her performance. Would rather see more Maya than Fred Armisen, but I do wonder why they keep having her on.
posted by jessamyn at 10:20 AM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
I liked this episode better than the others this season though, even though I missed Kyle, Cecily and Aidy. I was pleasantly surprised at Adeles general ability to do comedy stuff and I thought the Psychic sketch was strong (though agree, pretty easy to write) and it ended with one of those twist-type jokes which I always appreciate. The Village People bit on the news just cracked me up (and I wasn't sure of Kenan's "you can say anything..." aside either) seeing all the guys do their dancing best (Mikey Day was really selling it as Cowboy Man) and even though I think Melissa's desk bit didn't really have much of an arc, it's good to see her doing voices again. Weekend Update was solid.
Nursing Home and Africa both didn't work for me but some of the Internet Arguments about the Africa sketch ("they said Jamaica is in Africa, those stupid idiots!") were maybe the point of it? As someone who works with older people a lot I find a lot of the SNL "old people" characters to be kind of tropey and unfunny but that may just be a personal thing.
H.E.R was great, had not seen her much before and enjoyed her performance. Would rather see more Maya than Fred Armisen, but I do wonder why they keep having her on.
posted by jessamyn at 10:20 AM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
I wish Carrey would stop doing Fire Marshal Biden. It's just bad, though this week was marginally less grotesque. Trying to make it look like they are skewering both sides evenly was irresponsible in the run-up to 2016 and it's almost reprehensible now.
YMCA was GREAT. The way Jost and Che were cracking up made me think they hadn't seen the whole thing, or that there were a couple of extra verses.
The Africa sketch reminded me of the sillier and only slightly less problematic 5-til 'porn stars selling luxury items' sketches. There's a strong Getting Your Groove Back vibe (what with the lumping of Jamaica in with 'Africa') that suggests mayyyybe that's a thing divorcees do elsewhere, I guess? I loved her getting the giggles, though.. super cute.
Ass Angel Jeans had heavy I'm No Angel perfume vibes, to the point I thought maybe that was an old Maya/Amy/Tina sketch that they never got on air. I was going to link to it, but it seems to have been purged from all online sources. womp-womp.
posted by ApathyGirl at 10:55 AM on October 26, 2020
YMCA was GREAT. The way Jost and Che were cracking up made me think they hadn't seen the whole thing, or that there were a couple of extra verses.
The Africa sketch reminded me of the sillier and only slightly less problematic 5-til 'porn stars selling luxury items' sketches. There's a strong Getting Your Groove Back vibe (what with the lumping of Jamaica in with 'Africa') that suggests mayyyybe that's a thing divorcees do elsewhere, I guess? I loved her getting the giggles, though.. super cute.
Ass Angel Jeans had heavy I'm No Angel perfume vibes, to the point I thought maybe that was an old Maya/Amy/Tina sketch that they never got on air. I was going to link to it, but it seems to have been purged from all online sources. womp-womp.
posted by ApathyGirl at 10:55 AM on October 26, 2020
The African tourism sketch was weird as hell, but you can kind of throw it on the pile of confusing, icky sketches from this era of the show where, A), white women (especially blondes) are the most privileged, awful people in the world... At least this time the women weren't hypocritical, clueless feminists.
Ursula Hitler, I mean this with genuine respect because I often agree with your points in general on other spaces in Mefi land, but I am a regular SNL watcher (but not an SNL apologist, there's a lot of shit they do that I find lackluster/off/offensive) but I often feel uncomfortable trying to speak up in these threads because you levy this particular criticism nearly every episode, vehemently, and as a WOC in my particular community, I actually have found that white women who are self-proclaimed liberal feminists are actually extremely awful, self-centered, privileged, and constantly commandeering spaces meant for WOC and deploy white women tears when gently asked to check their privilege. This is my life experience, all my life, in school, in my professional world, in my social life, and I end up expending a lot of emotional labor to deal with this at the expense of my already tenuous mental health.
I actually chuckled a bit at Bill Burr's bit in his monologue a couple weeks back about white women hijacking "woke" causes because that shit happens in my life literally all the fucking time. I don't want to presume what your life experience has taught you about this issue - obviously we see this differently. And I don't want to pick a fight - mods, if this is deemed too contentious, you can delete it. But I just wanted to put this out there, because it feels like you bring this up all the time - the supposed villification of white women in sketches, in Michael Che's WU jokes (I'm no apologist for him either, his behavior outside the show is straight up shit) and how extremely awful and offensive and wrong it is and how it somehow indicts SNL's writers for being bad - and I have no idea how to respond to this because in my life, in my world, the worst treatment I have ever experienced in my life has come from privileged clueless white women who identify as feminists. When SNL points this out, I feel seen. When I see you commenting week after week that this is unequivocally Bad, and no one challenging you on it, it contributes to my fear that Metafilter is not a safe space for POC.
Mods, I won't be offended if you delete because I genuinely don't have any more energy to fight anyone on this topic right now. But I just wanted to make my voice heard on this issue, because it makes me sad and tired and unseen and unheard, and also feel discouraged for voicing an alternative opinion for fear of being tarred with the "Michael Che is a dick bc sometimes he makes fun of white ladies" brush.
That's all I got to say about that. I thought Adele was a great host, very comfortable and natural and funny, I loved the Bachelor sketch, I found the Africa sketch problematic AF, and I hated the 10-to-1 jeans sketch so much. I think Weekend Update has been doing a much better job skewering Trump than the ridiculously bad cold opens. I do not like Carrey as Biden. HER was awesome.
I guess that's it. Thanks for hearing me out, I guess.
This is a really hard community in which to be a POC.
posted by nayantara at 4:57 PM on October 26, 2020 [18 favorites]
Ursula Hitler, I mean this with genuine respect because I often agree with your points in general on other spaces in Mefi land, but I am a regular SNL watcher (but not an SNL apologist, there's a lot of shit they do that I find lackluster/off/offensive) but I often feel uncomfortable trying to speak up in these threads because you levy this particular criticism nearly every episode, vehemently, and as a WOC in my particular community, I actually have found that white women who are self-proclaimed liberal feminists are actually extremely awful, self-centered, privileged, and constantly commandeering spaces meant for WOC and deploy white women tears when gently asked to check their privilege. This is my life experience, all my life, in school, in my professional world, in my social life, and I end up expending a lot of emotional labor to deal with this at the expense of my already tenuous mental health.
I actually chuckled a bit at Bill Burr's bit in his monologue a couple weeks back about white women hijacking "woke" causes because that shit happens in my life literally all the fucking time. I don't want to presume what your life experience has taught you about this issue - obviously we see this differently. And I don't want to pick a fight - mods, if this is deemed too contentious, you can delete it. But I just wanted to put this out there, because it feels like you bring this up all the time - the supposed villification of white women in sketches, in Michael Che's WU jokes (I'm no apologist for him either, his behavior outside the show is straight up shit) and how extremely awful and offensive and wrong it is and how it somehow indicts SNL's writers for being bad - and I have no idea how to respond to this because in my life, in my world, the worst treatment I have ever experienced in my life has come from privileged clueless white women who identify as feminists. When SNL points this out, I feel seen. When I see you commenting week after week that this is unequivocally Bad, and no one challenging you on it, it contributes to my fear that Metafilter is not a safe space for POC.
Mods, I won't be offended if you delete because I genuinely don't have any more energy to fight anyone on this topic right now. But I just wanted to make my voice heard on this issue, because it makes me sad and tired and unseen and unheard, and also feel discouraged for voicing an alternative opinion for fear of being tarred with the "Michael Che is a dick bc sometimes he makes fun of white ladies" brush.
That's all I got to say about that. I thought Adele was a great host, very comfortable and natural and funny, I loved the Bachelor sketch, I found the Africa sketch problematic AF, and I hated the 10-to-1 jeans sketch so much. I think Weekend Update has been doing a much better job skewering Trump than the ridiculously bad cold opens. I do not like Carrey as Biden. HER was awesome.
I guess that's it. Thanks for hearing me out, I guess.
This is a really hard community in which to be a POC.
posted by nayantara at 4:57 PM on October 26, 2020 [18 favorites]
Hey nayantara, I think that is fine and unlikely to be something that is a problem in this thread. As a liberal feminist White woman I have to say I think a lot of SNLs critiques are right on, and I think they often do a good job exposing a lot of that "performative wokeness" for what it is. There are plenty of other SNL roles for White and POC characters that aren't just Karen-type jokes, so I don't feel that making those social commentaries is a problem, it seems like the correct thing to do actually. I don't feel the show is anti-White-lady, I think it's just appropriately calling out privileged people being dumb (and clueless) assholes.
I get itchy when Che puts it next to weird jokes about his girlfriends getting abortions (what is it with him, it's a weird tic?) but that's sort of a different issue.
posted by jessamyn at 5:09 PM on October 26, 2020 [3 favorites]
I get itchy when Che puts it next to weird jokes about his girlfriends getting abortions (what is it with him, it's a weird tic?) but that's sort of a different issue.
posted by jessamyn at 5:09 PM on October 26, 2020 [3 favorites]
jessamyn, definitely agree with you about Che's girlfriend-abortion jokes. It feels like he's the only one who finds it funny, and it always lands uncomfortably. I feel like even Jost gets uncomfortable when Che goes there.
posted by nayantara at 5:12 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by nayantara at 5:12 PM on October 26, 2020 [2 favorites]
nayantara, thank you. The defense of "but the Africa sketch wasn't thaaaat racist" was sending me close to just giving up on MF and permananently buttoning. Thanks for expending the labor today.
posted by TwoStride at 6:32 PM on October 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 6:32 PM on October 26, 2020 [4 favorites]
Nayantara, I appreciate what you have to say. You make your points well and I don't feel attacked at all. I'd like to take this opportunity to clarify some things about myself and my politics. I apologize if this gets messy, but we live in messy times and I'm a messy person.
It may surprise you to learn that I am often at odds with American feminism. People who've tangled with me in some older threads might even dismiss me as an MRA type. I'm trans, but I feel that women have a lot of privileges in our society and I don't hate men as much as a lot of feminists seem to. I consider myself an egalitarian and I feel that racism and sexism are both just wrong, full stop. If you are judging anybody unfairly based on their skin color or what's in their pants, I am going to have a problem with that. I don't want any group to be unfairly vilified, and thinking like that often puts me at odds with MRA types as well as feminists. I don't like jokes about how men are all stupid and awful and their genitals are ugly, just like I don't like jokes about how women are all stupid and awful and their genitals are ugly. That stuff is unfunny, mean and lazy. It makes the world worse.
Now, I say all that with full knowledge that certain stereotypes do a lot more damage than others. Everybody's got their shit to deal with but women and POC in particular face many unfair disadvantages, and female POC have it tough both ways. That stuff is real. Characterizing every white millennial feminist woman as a smug, latte-sipping Becky is nowhere near as destructive as stereotypes about Black people... but the thing is, it's really not good either.
I didn't like a lot of SNL's pro-feminist sketches because I thought they were kind of preachy and reductive. But now those sketches are all gone, and instead we get so much stuff about these awful, privileged, hypocritical, whiny, blond girl feminists. Those people are out there in real life and I can appreciate a good joke at their expense, but I feel like SNL just hits that same note way too often. The show is way too both-sides, and the left is too often personified by Heidi Gardner as some disphitty Megan with a scarf. It's like, the POTUS is a pussy-grabbing, fascist monster... and this show seems to hate the Megans just as much as Trump, if not more. At the very least Megan has never suffered as a woman, her pain isn't real. She's a silly little poser, always. Well, fuck that.
I feel a lot less confident talking about race than sex, but I'll restate my frequent SNL complaint that if you have to know who wrote a sketch before you know if it's racist, that's probably not a great sketch. The Michael Che era of SNL is full of stuff that would be super racist if a white person wrote it. That's not unique to him. Plenty of racist whites got way too excited about that one Chris Rock monologue, because, as Rock later put it, they thought the routine gave them license to say the n-word. But Rock is a great, boundary-breaking comedian when he's on his game, and Michael Che is... not Chris Rock. I tend to blame Che for the stuff I hate about current SNL because it's so consistent with his WU persona, but for all I know Colin Jost may secretly be just as bad.
I have to wrap this up, but I hope I've made it clear that I don't think white women feminists are just angels and it's always wrong to mock them. I've tangled with them plenty myself, right here on Metafilter even. (I can't even post about gender on the main site without it turning into a flamewar.) The left in general frequently disgusts me, but I am a leftist because the alternative is so, so much worse. I think SNL is swerving badly right now, its politics are a total muddle and its doing at least as much harm as good. I grew up loving the show, and seeing its current doldrums really pains me. Believe it or not, I don't enjoy hating on SNL. I really, really want it to be better.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 11:35 PM on October 26, 2020
It may surprise you to learn that I am often at odds with American feminism. People who've tangled with me in some older threads might even dismiss me as an MRA type. I'm trans, but I feel that women have a lot of privileges in our society and I don't hate men as much as a lot of feminists seem to. I consider myself an egalitarian and I feel that racism and sexism are both just wrong, full stop. If you are judging anybody unfairly based on their skin color or what's in their pants, I am going to have a problem with that. I don't want any group to be unfairly vilified, and thinking like that often puts me at odds with MRA types as well as feminists. I don't like jokes about how men are all stupid and awful and their genitals are ugly, just like I don't like jokes about how women are all stupid and awful and their genitals are ugly. That stuff is unfunny, mean and lazy. It makes the world worse.
Now, I say all that with full knowledge that certain stereotypes do a lot more damage than others. Everybody's got their shit to deal with but women and POC in particular face many unfair disadvantages, and female POC have it tough both ways. That stuff is real. Characterizing every white millennial feminist woman as a smug, latte-sipping Becky is nowhere near as destructive as stereotypes about Black people... but the thing is, it's really not good either.
I didn't like a lot of SNL's pro-feminist sketches because I thought they were kind of preachy and reductive. But now those sketches are all gone, and instead we get so much stuff about these awful, privileged, hypocritical, whiny, blond girl feminists. Those people are out there in real life and I can appreciate a good joke at their expense, but I feel like SNL just hits that same note way too often. The show is way too both-sides, and the left is too often personified by Heidi Gardner as some disphitty Megan with a scarf. It's like, the POTUS is a pussy-grabbing, fascist monster... and this show seems to hate the Megans just as much as Trump, if not more. At the very least Megan has never suffered as a woman, her pain isn't real. She's a silly little poser, always. Well, fuck that.
I feel a lot less confident talking about race than sex, but I'll restate my frequent SNL complaint that if you have to know who wrote a sketch before you know if it's racist, that's probably not a great sketch. The Michael Che era of SNL is full of stuff that would be super racist if a white person wrote it. That's not unique to him. Plenty of racist whites got way too excited about that one Chris Rock monologue, because, as Rock later put it, they thought the routine gave them license to say the n-word. But Rock is a great, boundary-breaking comedian when he's on his game, and Michael Che is... not Chris Rock. I tend to blame Che for the stuff I hate about current SNL because it's so consistent with his WU persona, but for all I know Colin Jost may secretly be just as bad.
I have to wrap this up, but I hope I've made it clear that I don't think white women feminists are just angels and it's always wrong to mock them. I've tangled with them plenty myself, right here on Metafilter even. (I can't even post about gender on the main site without it turning into a flamewar.) The left in general frequently disgusts me, but I am a leftist because the alternative is so, so much worse. I think SNL is swerving badly right now, its politics are a total muddle and its doing at least as much harm as good. I grew up loving the show, and seeing its current doldrums really pains me. Believe it or not, I don't enjoy hating on SNL. I really, really want it to be better.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 11:35 PM on October 26, 2020
I'm so anxious about getting into this stuff on Metafilter that I keep regretting that I posted that at all. Please don't rip my head off, folks. Things have been hard lately.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:35 AM on October 27, 2020
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:35 AM on October 27, 2020
Ok Ursula Hitler, I think I see a bit of where we are at odds on this:
It's like, the POTUS is a pussy-grabbing, fascist monster... and this show seems to hate the Megans just as much as Trump, if not more. At the very least Megan has never suffered as a woman, her pain isn't real. She's a silly little poser, always. Well, fuck that.
53% of white women voted for Trump. Many of those white women claim to be anti-racist and pro-feminism, but THEY VOTED FOR HIM. When SNL does jokes about Becky/Megan/Karen-types, it reads to me like they are acknowledging that white women in America are actually a huge problem in this way - which is something that tracks with my real life experiences.
I have some more to say about the racism angle you mention but I'm on my lunch break so more later. But thank you for responding and explaining where you are coming from - it's totally helpful and I hope we can both learn from each other or at the very least have a nice conversation.
posted by nayantara at 9:23 AM on October 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
It's like, the POTUS is a pussy-grabbing, fascist monster... and this show seems to hate the Megans just as much as Trump, if not more. At the very least Megan has never suffered as a woman, her pain isn't real. She's a silly little poser, always. Well, fuck that.
53% of white women voted for Trump. Many of those white women claim to be anti-racist and pro-feminism, but THEY VOTED FOR HIM. When SNL does jokes about Becky/Megan/Karen-types, it reads to me like they are acknowledging that white women in America are actually a huge problem in this way - which is something that tracks with my real life experiences.
I have some more to say about the racism angle you mention but I'm on my lunch break so more later. But thank you for responding and explaining where you are coming from - it's totally helpful and I hope we can both learn from each other or at the very least have a nice conversation.
posted by nayantara at 9:23 AM on October 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
See, I have ZERO objection with going after white women (or anybody) who voted for Trump. My problem is that this show constantly goes after the feminist white women who did not vote for Trump, who despise Trump, as if they're the real problem. It's never, "Hi, I'm this rich Orange County lady who is fine with kids in cages," it's always, "Hi, I'm a Brooklyn hipster girl who thinks she's woke!" I'd be fine with the show attacking that 53% every week, as part of an attack on every dumb fuck who put Trump in office and continues to support him. My issue is that this show's current politics, while muddled, tack toward a kind of snarky, Libertarian, bro-y both-sides-ism, and it's misogynist as hell.
I used to love The Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party, because I thought she was a really funny caricature of a certain kind of entitled, dumb, wanna-be woke young lady. But it gradually became apparent to me that that's basically how Che sees pretty much any angry woman. They're all just Karens who need to shut up.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:03 PM on October 27, 2020
I used to love The Girl You Wish You Hadn't Started a Conversation With at a Party, because I thought she was a really funny caricature of a certain kind of entitled, dumb, wanna-be woke young lady. But it gradually became apparent to me that that's basically how Che sees pretty much any angry woman. They're all just Karens who need to shut up.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:03 PM on October 27, 2020
Why do you think Che wrote that? How much did Strong contribute? It seems it's a recurring character because it's popular, not because it's part of Che's agenda. And it's popular primarily because of Strong's performance, not just the writing.
posted by Stanczyk at 2:36 PM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by Stanczyk at 2:36 PM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
To clarify, I liked the character, I don't know that Che wrote those sketches and I'd always assumed Strong created the character. It's only in hindsight that I say, "Gee, she sure hits a lot of tropes that this show would go back to over and over and over again in the Che era." And as I said, I blame Che for the show's shitty, misogynist politics mostly because they line up so much with his WU persona. But after hearing Colin Jost say recently that "a lot of people" at the show were impressed by how well Trump could take a joke during his hosting gig, Jost is also getting big-time side-eye from me. I don't even think that Jost and Che need to be gone, necessarily, because they do have some talent... but I think they should not be the bosses at this show, especially at this moment in history.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:52 PM on October 27, 2020
posted by Ursula Hitler at 2:52 PM on October 27, 2020
I don't think it's just Jost and Che, I think it speaks to a larger problem with comedian culture in general.
A lot of comedians expend an awful lot of energy decrying "cancel culture", because they were taught early on that cruel = funny, and so they spent most of their careers trying to live up to that standard, saying the most fucked up things to prove how committed they were to their craft. And I imagine that backlog has them worried about being cancelled.
Hence the over-reaction against people who might point out that they're being offensive. I feel like the reflexive misogyny is one knock-on effect of that.
I've said this before- Dave Chappelle once said that you need to be mean in comedy because power dynamics are at the root of a lot of jokes. I disagree. I think that in a joke with power dynamics, what makes it funny is that it's absurd. The love of cruelty speaks to something else.
posted by ishmael at 5:55 PM on October 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
A lot of comedians expend an awful lot of energy decrying "cancel culture", because they were taught early on that cruel = funny, and so they spent most of their careers trying to live up to that standard, saying the most fucked up things to prove how committed they were to their craft. And I imagine that backlog has them worried about being cancelled.
Hence the over-reaction against people who might point out that they're being offensive. I feel like the reflexive misogyny is one knock-on effect of that.
I've said this before- Dave Chappelle once said that you need to be mean in comedy because power dynamics are at the root of a lot of jokes. I disagree. I think that in a joke with power dynamics, what makes it funny is that it's absurd. The love of cruelty speaks to something else.
posted by ishmael at 5:55 PM on October 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
Gadsby exposed this brilliantly in Nanette. Yes, comedy is a bully, even to the comedian themself sometimes. But most of the best of the transgressions of comedy have assaulted systemic power. Right now think of the work of Trevor Noah, Seth Meyers, Amber Ruffin, Issa Rae, Steven Colbert, or Kenya Barris. Their comedy is mean, but we can't be hypocritical and demand that confrontational comedy be limited to a collectively approved group of targets. That's not how satire works, and why conservatives are so fucking bad at it, and the collective would not approve of Gadsby, Ruffin, Chappelle, Barris, Rae, or Noah.
I am learning how to appreciate comedy that isn't written for me. How to not demand that it take my perspective and respect it or incorporate it in anyway, but instead to allow me to see an issue from another perspective, and to not take offense if that perspective didn't give a shit what my dominant and flawed demographic thought.
posted by Stanczyk at 6:17 PM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am learning how to appreciate comedy that isn't written for me. How to not demand that it take my perspective and respect it or incorporate it in anyway, but instead to allow me to see an issue from another perspective, and to not take offense if that perspective didn't give a shit what my dominant and flawed demographic thought.
posted by Stanczyk at 6:17 PM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
1) Cecily Strong created that character
2) "Brooklyn hipster girls who think they're woke" are literally EXACTLY what I was talking about in my first comment - they are the demographic of women who tend to performatively commandeer "woke" causes and flip a shit when asked to check their privilege. A black man making fun of this type of woman is not an example of punching down, I'm sorry.
I take issue with the idea of "if a white person wrote a sketch the way Che writes sketches then it would be racist." Ok, but they didn't. So as a WOC I don't really see the problem. Che is far from perfect but having diversity in the writers' room is important and sketches that challenge the idea that white people whose intentions are good but fail at the big picture of wokeness are deserving of cookies anyway is a good thing. I remember people getting up in arms about that show Chappelle hosted where he was at the election watching party with his white friends who were all freaking out because Trump was winning and he was like "um, I'm not surprised because America" and then Chris Rock joined him and was like "yup, what he said" - people felt it was making fun of white people who don't have an intimate understanding of systemic racism and YES that is exactly what the joke was and as a WOC I was hysterical because that's what election night 2016 as like for me too. The 5 Hour Empathy commercial last week? HILARIOUS. You know why? BECAUSE LOTS OF WELL INTENTIONED WHITE PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY LIKE THAT. ESPECIALLY WOMEN, BECAUSE THEY THINK BY VIRTUE OF BEING WOMEN THEY UNDERSTAND RACISM. This shit is funny because it's true. This is stuff I witness and experience in my actual real life on an actual daily basis. Its funny as hell and SNL SHOULD be making jokes about it, just as they should be making jokes about the Psycho-in-Chief and Giuliani and Conway and the Proud Boys.
Also there is no fucking way of knowing which sketches Che wrote. The writing process on SNL is very elaborate, complicated, exhausting, and a team effort between cast members, writers, and hosts when they have the chops for it. The head writers are essentially middle managers - Jost says as much in his recent memoir. If you have a bone to pick about what comedy gets airtime, you need to look at Lorne Michaels, who runs the place like a mini fiefdom.
I'm getting really het up right now, sorry. This is so frustrating for me. I'm sorry. I really am. I don't want to pick a fight, but when sketches that reflect my actual life experiences are dismissed as shit because maybe Che wrote them or maybe SNL secretly hates well intentioned white women who fucking ruin shit for people like me all the fucking time, it makes me want to scream. This is what satire IS. Fuck. Sorry. Fuck.
I'm going to walk away now because I am literally shaking with anger
posted by nayantara at 6:38 PM on October 27, 2020 [11 favorites]
2) "Brooklyn hipster girls who think they're woke" are literally EXACTLY what I was talking about in my first comment - they are the demographic of women who tend to performatively commandeer "woke" causes and flip a shit when asked to check their privilege. A black man making fun of this type of woman is not an example of punching down, I'm sorry.
I take issue with the idea of "if a white person wrote a sketch the way Che writes sketches then it would be racist." Ok, but they didn't. So as a WOC I don't really see the problem. Che is far from perfect but having diversity in the writers' room is important and sketches that challenge the idea that white people whose intentions are good but fail at the big picture of wokeness are deserving of cookies anyway is a good thing. I remember people getting up in arms about that show Chappelle hosted where he was at the election watching party with his white friends who were all freaking out because Trump was winning and he was like "um, I'm not surprised because America" and then Chris Rock joined him and was like "yup, what he said" - people felt it was making fun of white people who don't have an intimate understanding of systemic racism and YES that is exactly what the joke was and as a WOC I was hysterical because that's what election night 2016 as like for me too. The 5 Hour Empathy commercial last week? HILARIOUS. You know why? BECAUSE LOTS OF WELL INTENTIONED WHITE PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY LIKE THAT. ESPECIALLY WOMEN, BECAUSE THEY THINK BY VIRTUE OF BEING WOMEN THEY UNDERSTAND RACISM. This shit is funny because it's true. This is stuff I witness and experience in my actual real life on an actual daily basis. Its funny as hell and SNL SHOULD be making jokes about it, just as they should be making jokes about the Psycho-in-Chief and Giuliani and Conway and the Proud Boys.
Also there is no fucking way of knowing which sketches Che wrote. The writing process on SNL is very elaborate, complicated, exhausting, and a team effort between cast members, writers, and hosts when they have the chops for it. The head writers are essentially middle managers - Jost says as much in his recent memoir. If you have a bone to pick about what comedy gets airtime, you need to look at Lorne Michaels, who runs the place like a mini fiefdom.
I'm getting really het up right now, sorry. This is so frustrating for me. I'm sorry. I really am. I don't want to pick a fight, but when sketches that reflect my actual life experiences are dismissed as shit because maybe Che wrote them or maybe SNL secretly hates well intentioned white women who fucking ruin shit for people like me all the fucking time, it makes me want to scream. This is what satire IS. Fuck. Sorry. Fuck.
I'm going to walk away now because I am literally shaking with anger
posted by nayantara at 6:38 PM on October 27, 2020 [11 favorites]
f you have to know who wrote a sketch before you know if it's racist, that's probably not a great sketch
I mean this is somehow simultaneously completely nonsensical and stunningly offensive. And you admit you say it all the time. What does this even fucking mean? "If Che wrote it? Racist. If Mikey Day and Streeter Seidel wrote it? Oh, it's ok now." Do you even SEE how awful that is? And it's because we have to worry about the feelings of Nice White Ladies, who are apparently the most vulnerable population in America or something? REALLY?!
There are four head writers now. Jost and Che are co-head writers with two other people, one of whom is a woman named Anna Drezen. Watch the credits and look at how many writers are on the show. Then add the 20 cast members to that number. Then remember the head writers are paper pushing middle managers, and two of them spend most of the week writing Weekend Update. So who wrote all of those anti-Nice White Lady sketches? Che apparently, single handedly, while managing a giant number of staff writers and working on a recurring weekly topical segment? Yeah, that makes so much sense.
I said I would walk away and I will for real now. I don't even like Che and Jost does have a very punchable face. But my head is about to fucking explode and I need to sleep before going back to work tomorrow in my office full of Nice White Ladies who have no clue what it's like to experience being accosted and harassed by a man in a MAGA hat but are so enthusiastic about walking three blocks in a BLM march.
No one is saying women like that are the only problem. But, they are a problem. A really big one.
posted by nayantara at 7:09 PM on October 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
I mean this is somehow simultaneously completely nonsensical and stunningly offensive. And you admit you say it all the time. What does this even fucking mean? "If Che wrote it? Racist. If Mikey Day and Streeter Seidel wrote it? Oh, it's ok now." Do you even SEE how awful that is? And it's because we have to worry about the feelings of Nice White Ladies, who are apparently the most vulnerable population in America or something? REALLY?!
There are four head writers now. Jost and Che are co-head writers with two other people, one of whom is a woman named Anna Drezen. Watch the credits and look at how many writers are on the show. Then add the 20 cast members to that number. Then remember the head writers are paper pushing middle managers, and two of them spend most of the week writing Weekend Update. So who wrote all of those anti-Nice White Lady sketches? Che apparently, single handedly, while managing a giant number of staff writers and working on a recurring weekly topical segment? Yeah, that makes so much sense.
I said I would walk away and I will for real now. I don't even like Che and Jost does have a very punchable face. But my head is about to fucking explode and I need to sleep before going back to work tomorrow in my office full of Nice White Ladies who have no clue what it's like to experience being accosted and harassed by a man in a MAGA hat but are so enthusiastic about walking three blocks in a BLM march.
No one is saying women like that are the only problem. But, they are a problem. A really big one.
posted by nayantara at 7:09 PM on October 27, 2020 [4 favorites]
I should clarify - nice white women who don't know what it's like to be accosted by a man in a MAGA hat but think that just because a truck with a Trump sticker on it honked at them during their BLM march it's the exact same thing and that's why they had to leave the march early bc it traumatized them.
posted by nayantara at 8:16 PM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by nayantara at 8:16 PM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
Right now think of the work of Trevor Noah, Seth Meyers, Amber Ruffin, Issa Rae, Steven Colbert, or Kenya Barris. Their comedy is mean, but we can't be hypocritical and demand that confrontational comedy be limited to a collectively approved group of targets.
I am one-hundred percent on board with what Noah, Myers, Ruffin, Gadsby, et al are doing because they are punching up. That detail is pretty important to me.
Also, none of those particular comedians harp on about cancel culture. It's not really that much of a concern for them, because they're not in the habit of saying fucked up things just for the sake of it.
posted by ishmael at 8:30 PM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
I am one-hundred percent on board with what Noah, Myers, Ruffin, Gadsby, et al are doing because they are punching up. That detail is pretty important to me.
Also, none of those particular comedians harp on about cancel culture. It's not really that much of a concern for them, because they're not in the habit of saying fucked up things just for the sake of it.
posted by ishmael at 8:30 PM on October 27, 2020 [2 favorites]
To be clear, I also completely agree with nayatara that performative wokeness is a legitimate target of satire. I was more speaking to the problematic aspects of some of the writing on SNL.
posted by ishmael at 9:02 PM on October 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by ishmael at 9:02 PM on October 27, 2020 [1 favorite]
I don't think I can get too deep into this. My life is a shit-show right now and I don't need the extra stress of trying to have a conversation with somebody who is, by their own description, shaking with anger. Just, no thank you.
I'll address one of your points and then I'm showing myself out of this thread.
"If Che wrote it? Racist. If Mikey Day and Streeter Seidel wrote it? Oh, it's ok now."
That's certainly not what I meant. Right now there are too many sketches on the show that play like they were written by racist white dudes. If Mikey Day and Streeter Seidel were writing that stuff, I'd say they should be fired immediately. But, maybe those sketches were written by POC, which is a different and more complicated situation. Given this show's history and the politics of the current regime, it could go either way. All I know for sure is we're getting a lot of Fox News talking points and some of the same shitty jokes a Proud Boy would make.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:01 AM on October 28, 2020
I'll address one of your points and then I'm showing myself out of this thread.
"If Che wrote it? Racist. If Mikey Day and Streeter Seidel wrote it? Oh, it's ok now."
That's certainly not what I meant. Right now there are too many sketches on the show that play like they were written by racist white dudes. If Mikey Day and Streeter Seidel were writing that stuff, I'd say they should be fired immediately. But, maybe those sketches were written by POC, which is a different and more complicated situation. Given this show's history and the politics of the current regime, it could go either way. All I know for sure is we're getting a lot of Fox News talking points and some of the same shitty jokes a Proud Boy would make.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:01 AM on October 28, 2020
I'm surrounded by white women who think they've done the work because they read that book by Ijeoma Oluo and have a BLM button on their bag (the backpack-y bag, not the good bag). SNL gets a lot of things wrong but it gets these women exactly right. Exactly. Those sketches are often the only ones I laugh at, and they are definitely the only ones my wife (who is Black) laughs at.
That 2016 election sketch, I literally lived it in a room full of white women with two black women shaking their heads at everyone's shock and confusion. When the 5 hour Empathy lady says it's the same because she's a woman, I've heard that said IRL more times than I can count. It is not punching down to portray these women as people content to live out their privilege as long as you pretend to think they're doing otherwise.
I wish these threads were better, but I don't know how to make them that way because it seems like everyone but a few people are hate-watching the show, and then running here to shout about how awful the first black head writer in SNL's 40+ year history is, and offhand mention that they've never/barely heard of the musical guest/the host. (FFS Emmy-nominee Issa Rae? Multiple Grammy-winner H.E.R.?? If you've never heard of them you probably shouldn't comment on how the show portrays race.)
posted by donnagirl at 6:00 AM on October 28, 2020 [5 favorites]
That 2016 election sketch, I literally lived it in a room full of white women with two black women shaking their heads at everyone's shock and confusion. When the 5 hour Empathy lady says it's the same because she's a woman, I've heard that said IRL more times than I can count. It is not punching down to portray these women as people content to live out their privilege as long as you pretend to think they're doing otherwise.
I wish these threads were better, but I don't know how to make them that way because it seems like everyone but a few people are hate-watching the show, and then running here to shout about how awful the first black head writer in SNL's 40+ year history is, and offhand mention that they've never/barely heard of the musical guest/the host. (FFS Emmy-nominee Issa Rae? Multiple Grammy-winner H.E.R.?? If you've never heard of them you probably shouldn't comment on how the show portrays race.)
posted by donnagirl at 6:00 AM on October 28, 2020 [5 favorites]
My life is a shit-show now too. I'm sorry you're having a hard time Ursula Hitler and I certainly don't want to contribute to making it worse. But I feel like you are making a lot of knee-jerk weird assumptions about the writing and the show's motivations without really having a full understanding of how SNL actually works day to day/week to week (and this is how it's always been, except actually WORSE in the past because up until fairly recently in nearly 50 years on air there weren't many women or POC writers on SNL) and the manner in which you are communicating it is making me feel really upset. I can't speak for other POC but I can say that I am not reading these sketches the way you are and the more you double down on what you're saying it just adds to the massive pile of things that makes being a participant in this community hard for POCs. Either that or I am fundamentally misunderstanding what exactly you are offended by. I don't know.
posted by nayantara at 6:13 AM on October 28, 2020 [1 favorite]
posted by nayantara at 6:13 AM on October 28, 2020 [1 favorite]
I wish these threads were better, but I don't know how to make them that way because it seems like everyone but a few people are hate-watching the show, and then running here to shout about how awful the first black head writer in SNL's 40+ year history is, and offhand mention that they've never/barely heard of the musical guest/the host. (FFS Emmy-nominee Issa Rae? Multiple Grammy-winner H.E.R.?? If you've never heard of them you probably shouldn't comment on how the show portrays race.)
Completely agree here donnagirl.
posted by nayantara at 6:51 AM on October 28, 2020
Completely agree here donnagirl.
posted by nayantara at 6:51 AM on October 28, 2020
All I know for sure is we're getting a lot of Fox News talking points and some of the same shitty jokes a Proud Boy would make.
In the spirit of trying to keep this from a flame war Ursula - because I genuinely don't want this to be a fight - I really would like some clarification on what you (or anyone who agrees with this) mean by this. I don't see it. The cold opens have been absolute crap so far but from my perspective there's a lot of great content elsewhere in these shows (and yes, that includes Weekend Update, my personal feelings about the hosts' off camera behavior aside) so I don't understand comparisons to Fox News and Proud Boys at all. I'm just not seeing it.
posted by nayantara at 6:54 AM on October 28, 2020
In the spirit of trying to keep this from a flame war Ursula - because I genuinely don't want this to be a fight - I really would like some clarification on what you (or anyone who agrees with this) mean by this. I don't see it. The cold opens have been absolute crap so far but from my perspective there's a lot of great content elsewhere in these shows (and yes, that includes Weekend Update, my personal feelings about the hosts' off camera behavior aside) so I don't understand comparisons to Fox News and Proud Boys at all. I'm just not seeing it.
posted by nayantara at 6:54 AM on October 28, 2020
I wish these threads were better, but I don't know how to make them that way because it seems like everyone but a few people are hate-watching the show, and then running here to shout about how awful the first black head writer in SNL's 40+ year history is, and offhand mention that they've never/barely heard of the musical guest/the host. (FFS Emmy-nominee Issa Rae? Multiple Grammy-winner H.E.R.?? If you've never heard of them you probably shouldn't comment on how the show portrays race.)
I've been watching the show pretty consistently since the mid-1980s and one of the constants is just how much of it is often... not good. But honestly it would be less special if it was good all the time. I have had Tivo for over a decade now, I could watch it Sunday morning and not struggle to stay up until 1:00 AM, but I always watch it live. That's the appeal... that's why I watch it. Because I know anything can happen and I want to watch it while it happens. A host can break out in laughter, the real Janet Reno can break through a wall, Steve Martin can show up, or a sketch could just completely fail.
So, no I don't hate watch the show, but I'll acknowledge when things don't work , which is often. It's like watching baseball for me... so much of it is boring but then every now and then something really amazing and exciting happens that nobody has ever seen before and we're going to talk about it for a couple days after the fact.
As for the hosts and musical guests, I'm not sure why you would assume we all consume the same pop culture. I'm a 51 year old white suburban dad with a 60 year old wife and a kid who listens exclusively to Anime soundtracks. I stopped paying attention to music sometime around Pearl Jam's first album. Yes, I know this is my failure and not the failure of music. SNL is one of the few places I get exposed to new music. So, no, I have literally never heard of H.E.R. before last Saturday night. As for Issa Ray, I had heard her name before but couldn't tell you what she was in. Now I know about them both and I'm glad I do. The first time Justine Bieber or BTS was on SNL was the first time I'd ever heard of them and it was clear to me that they were HUGE by that point. Yes, I find that weird too. Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong.
At some point maybe in the mid-2000s SNL crossed a line for me where, more often than not, the musical guest was someone I was unfamiliar with. Some time later the same thing happened with the hosts. But SNL has also exposed me to a lot of people I would never have heard of, some of whom I've enjoyed.
One of the weird things I've noticed about SNL, I see it here and I see it when I'd read AV Club reviews, is that people often don't agree on which shows are good and which are bad. Sometimes I'll love a show only to come here and find most people hated it and vice-versa.
I agree, some people are a bit too negative on the show and that's too bad. I try to watch every show, every host, and every musical guest with an open mind. Sometimes it just doesn't matter, the show is mostly bad, or the musical guest is just not my thing. But then one week they'll hit a home run, or I'll get to see some musical guest that everyone has been talking about and I'll enjoy them. That's why I love SNL.
posted by bondcliff at 7:30 AM on October 28, 2020 [1 favorite]
I've been watching the show pretty consistently since the mid-1980s and one of the constants is just how much of it is often... not good. But honestly it would be less special if it was good all the time. I have had Tivo for over a decade now, I could watch it Sunday morning and not struggle to stay up until 1:00 AM, but I always watch it live. That's the appeal... that's why I watch it. Because I know anything can happen and I want to watch it while it happens. A host can break out in laughter, the real Janet Reno can break through a wall, Steve Martin can show up, or a sketch could just completely fail.
So, no I don't hate watch the show, but I'll acknowledge when things don't work , which is often. It's like watching baseball for me... so much of it is boring but then every now and then something really amazing and exciting happens that nobody has ever seen before and we're going to talk about it for a couple days after the fact.
As for the hosts and musical guests, I'm not sure why you would assume we all consume the same pop culture. I'm a 51 year old white suburban dad with a 60 year old wife and a kid who listens exclusively to Anime soundtracks. I stopped paying attention to music sometime around Pearl Jam's first album. Yes, I know this is my failure and not the failure of music. SNL is one of the few places I get exposed to new music. So, no, I have literally never heard of H.E.R. before last Saturday night. As for Issa Ray, I had heard her name before but couldn't tell you what she was in. Now I know about them both and I'm glad I do. The first time Justine Bieber or BTS was on SNL was the first time I'd ever heard of them and it was clear to me that they were HUGE by that point. Yes, I find that weird too. Am I out of touch? No, it's the children who are wrong.
At some point maybe in the mid-2000s SNL crossed a line for me where, more often than not, the musical guest was someone I was unfamiliar with. Some time later the same thing happened with the hosts. But SNL has also exposed me to a lot of people I would never have heard of, some of whom I've enjoyed.
One of the weird things I've noticed about SNL, I see it here and I see it when I'd read AV Club reviews, is that people often don't agree on which shows are good and which are bad. Sometimes I'll love a show only to come here and find most people hated it and vice-versa.
I agree, some people are a bit too negative on the show and that's too bad. I try to watch every show, every host, and every musical guest with an open mind. Sometimes it just doesn't matter, the show is mostly bad, or the musical guest is just not my thing. But then one week they'll hit a home run, or I'll get to see some musical guest that everyone has been talking about and I'll enjoy them. That's why I love SNL.
posted by bondcliff at 7:30 AM on October 28, 2020 [1 favorite]
Slow day at work.
bondcliff I have been watching the show about as long as you and I agree, it's often not that great, or at best, uneven. But then every once in a while you'll get something fantastic (Reagan as the mastermind of Iran Contra, "I can't believe I'm losing to this guy", Janet Reno busting through a wall, "Strategery", Gore and Bush as the Odd Couple, MORE COWBELL, David S. Pumpkins!!!) and it's something people want to talk about and that's a really cool thing to experience culturally. They tend to do better in election years - this one being a bit of an exception because I think their approach to Biden and Harris is off (why are they erasing her half-Indian identity?!) but is offset by things like the "What will we talk about if Trump isn't president" commercial or 5 Hour Empathy or, honestly, Weekend Update, which has gotten some great zingers in so far. Comparisons to Fox News, though? What? What am I not seeing? Baldwin's Trump is tiresome but they don't even have to write material for him, Trump actually says that shit.
If people want to hate watch, fine, but then I don't really see the point of trying to have a genuine discussion about the show in these threads? If all everyone is saying is the show is bad, it just has the effect of silencing people who appreciate parts of what they are doing. And it's clear that the people who feel silenced the most in these threads are POC. That's not a good thing.
Ursula, I really don't want to contribute to your life being really difficult right now, but I am also getting a bit frustrated by you lobbing claims about SNL being like Fox News in these threads and then saying you are too exhausted to get into it further. It doesn't help anyone see your POV in a meaningful way, and I feel bad about that because you clearly feel so strongly about it and I just want to understand so we can try to hear each other fully.
posted by nayantara at 7:48 AM on October 28, 2020 [4 favorites]
bondcliff I have been watching the show about as long as you and I agree, it's often not that great, or at best, uneven. But then every once in a while you'll get something fantastic (Reagan as the mastermind of Iran Contra, "I can't believe I'm losing to this guy", Janet Reno busting through a wall, "Strategery", Gore and Bush as the Odd Couple, MORE COWBELL, David S. Pumpkins!!!) and it's something people want to talk about and that's a really cool thing to experience culturally. They tend to do better in election years - this one being a bit of an exception because I think their approach to Biden and Harris is off (why are they erasing her half-Indian identity?!) but is offset by things like the "What will we talk about if Trump isn't president" commercial or 5 Hour Empathy or, honestly, Weekend Update, which has gotten some great zingers in so far. Comparisons to Fox News, though? What? What am I not seeing? Baldwin's Trump is tiresome but they don't even have to write material for him, Trump actually says that shit.
If people want to hate watch, fine, but then I don't really see the point of trying to have a genuine discussion about the show in these threads? If all everyone is saying is the show is bad, it just has the effect of silencing people who appreciate parts of what they are doing. And it's clear that the people who feel silenced the most in these threads are POC. That's not a good thing.
Ursula, I really don't want to contribute to your life being really difficult right now, but I am also getting a bit frustrated by you lobbing claims about SNL being like Fox News in these threads and then saying you are too exhausted to get into it further. It doesn't help anyone see your POV in a meaningful way, and I feel bad about that because you clearly feel so strongly about it and I just want to understand so we can try to hear each other fully.
posted by nayantara at 7:48 AM on October 28, 2020 [4 favorites]
See, I have ZERO objection with going after white women (or anybody) who voted for Trump. My problem is that this show constantly goes after the feminist white women who did not vote for Trump, who despise Trump, as if they're the real problem.
Well, sometimes they are.
It's entirely possible, and is in fact very common, to be a feminist white woman who opposes Trump but is still complicit in white supremacy. Racism in the US didn't start with Donald Trump, and it certainly won't end after he's gone. The idea that being opposed to Trump is somehow sufficient to render white women immune from criticism is a symptom of the kind of privileged white ignorance that the 5-hour empathy sketch skewered so well.
SNL has always been a mixed bag (this season's cold opens have been tepid at best, but Weekend Update is the best it's been in years). I hope that the Trump Addicts sketch is prescient enough that we see what this cast can do without a Trump presidency sucking up all the air in the room. I hope they don't go back to letting white folks off the hook when that happens.
posted by Uncle Ira at 4:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
Well, sometimes they are.
It's entirely possible, and is in fact very common, to be a feminist white woman who opposes Trump but is still complicit in white supremacy. Racism in the US didn't start with Donald Trump, and it certainly won't end after he's gone. The idea that being opposed to Trump is somehow sufficient to render white women immune from criticism is a symptom of the kind of privileged white ignorance that the 5-hour empathy sketch skewered so well.
SNL has always been a mixed bag (this season's cold opens have been tepid at best, but Weekend Update is the best it's been in years). I hope that the Trump Addicts sketch is prescient enough that we see what this cast can do without a Trump presidency sucking up all the air in the room. I hope they don't go back to letting white folks off the hook when that happens.
posted by Uncle Ira at 4:01 PM on October 29, 2020 [5 favorites]
It's entirely possible, and is in fact very common, to be a feminist white woman who opposes Trump but is still complicit in white supremacy. Racism in the US didn't start with Donald Trump, and it certainly won't end after he's gone. The idea that being opposed to Trump is somehow sufficient to render white women immune from criticism is a symptom of the kind of privileged white ignorance that the 5-hour empathy sketch skewered so well.
Thank you for saying this Uncle Ira.
posted by nayantara at 5:25 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
Thank you for saying this Uncle Ira.
posted by nayantara at 5:25 PM on October 29, 2020 [1 favorite]
H.E.R.! — I liked the second song WAY better than the first one, especially the singer accompanying her melody on the guitar—and she wasn't just painting-by-numbers, either; she ended her refrain-solo with one flourish that had a BB King depth and simplicity to it.
I will give Adele a hall pass for totally ruining that one sketch, because she is just so adorbs. I'd never seen her in a context other than singing (which I am impressed with but not captured by). But her enthusiasm made up for everything that she coulda done wrong.
The sketches were okay-to-good. They coulda dumped the Nursing Home sketch, though; even though I would vote for Maya Rudolph for anything, I cringed when I watched this punch-down-on-the-oldsters sketch. HAVEN'T THEY MILKED THAT COW DRY YET? I loved the psychic sketch, on the other side of the spectrum. That was spot on. "Now he's washing all the bags with the groceries still inside them..."
News: I think they're getting back into a more reliably mild-cynical groove, and they do awkward-aside-after-bombing-joke as good as any other anchors before them (except maybe Cecily). I was a little disappointed in Melissa's desk piece—it seemed like, "let's just throw these impressions out there with nothing tying them together and no real jokes involved," but, that said, I am SO GLAD to see Melissa on the show and I think everyone else was, too. Pete seemed a little listless this week, but I still appreciated seeing him, especially in a live sketch. (I mean, Chad is the definition of listless anyway.) He looks like he's filling out and a lot less baggy-eyed, and I have a hunch that's a good sign.
I look forward to seeing what happens this weekend!
posted by not_on_display at 5:22 PM on October 30, 2020
I will give Adele a hall pass for totally ruining that one sketch, because she is just so adorbs. I'd never seen her in a context other than singing (which I am impressed with but not captured by). But her enthusiasm made up for everything that she coulda done wrong.
The sketches were okay-to-good. They coulda dumped the Nursing Home sketch, though; even though I would vote for Maya Rudolph for anything, I cringed when I watched this punch-down-on-the-oldsters sketch. HAVEN'T THEY MILKED THAT COW DRY YET? I loved the psychic sketch, on the other side of the spectrum. That was spot on. "Now he's washing all the bags with the groceries still inside them..."
News: I think they're getting back into a more reliably mild-cynical groove, and they do awkward-aside-after-bombing-joke as good as any other anchors before them (except maybe Cecily). I was a little disappointed in Melissa's desk piece—it seemed like, "let's just throw these impressions out there with nothing tying them together and no real jokes involved," but, that said, I am SO GLAD to see Melissa on the show and I think everyone else was, too. Pete seemed a little listless this week, but I still appreciated seeing him, especially in a live sketch. (I mean, Chad is the definition of listless anyway.) He looks like he's filling out and a lot less baggy-eyed, and I have a hunch that's a good sign.
I look forward to seeing what happens this weekend!
posted by not_on_display at 5:22 PM on October 30, 2020
I think I figured out what Carrey's Biden is missing: Biden's version of that JFK stentorian oratory style. I think Bush 41 had it, too. Luke Wilson Not Sure uses it at the end of Idiocracy. I'm not saying exactly like that, but Biden has some of it, and while Carrey has the "breakin' it down, looking right at you through the camera" thing down just fine, moving back and forth to the "I'm speaking to all people" projection thing isn't really there.
posted by rhizome at 6:38 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
posted by rhizome at 6:38 PM on October 30, 2020 [2 favorites]
This episode was okay. Adele seems like she has such an expansive, joyous personality.
"Pyschic" was funny because I often think that, while the pandemic has become something we're more or less used to, if our pre-2020 selves were suddenly transported to our pandemic lives, they'd think we'd all gone crazy.
I don't really like the Chad premise, but adding him to a horror movie setting was fun.
I didn't like the "Trump Addicts" sketch. Americans who hate Trump aren't addicted to Trump; they're being abused by him. And we'll have plenty to talk about when/if Trump is removed from office. I for one live for the day when he's in prison and not able to tweet anymore.
I hated the "Tourism Board of Africa" sketch. Tone deaf and not funny at all.
posted by orange swan at 6:42 PM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
"Pyschic" was funny because I often think that, while the pandemic has become something we're more or less used to, if our pre-2020 selves were suddenly transported to our pandemic lives, they'd think we'd all gone crazy.
I don't really like the Chad premise, but adding him to a horror movie setting was fun.
I didn't like the "Trump Addicts" sketch. Americans who hate Trump aren't addicted to Trump; they're being abused by him. And we'll have plenty to talk about when/if Trump is removed from office. I for one live for the day when he's in prison and not able to tweet anymore.
I hated the "Tourism Board of Africa" sketch. Tone deaf and not funny at all.
posted by orange swan at 6:42 PM on November 1, 2020 [1 favorite]
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posted by Thorzdad at 6:05 AM on October 25, 2020