Moon Knight: Gods and Monsters
May 4, 2022 5:17 AM - Season 1, Episode 6 - Subscribe
Season finale! Ammit is unleashed, but Marc and Steven are still stuck in the realm of the dead. Can they get back in time? Layla gets some fashion advice from Tawaret.
Stay tuned, of course, for a post-credits scene.
Stay tuned, of course, for a post-credits scene.
Is this meant to be a stand-alone story? Because I have no idea how MK fits into the MCU.
Also: Egyptian superhero! I loved that. I hope Layla sticks with Tawaret, they're a good fit for each other.
posted by orrnyereg at 5:40 AM on May 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
Also: Egyptian superhero! I loved that. I hope Layla sticks with Tawaret, they're a good fit for each other.
posted by orrnyereg at 5:40 AM on May 4, 2022 [4 favorites]
I believe there is to be a second season.
I enjoyed Layla as avatar of Taweret. She was super cool. Loved the gold wings.
I was a little disappointed in the way the episode ended with the jump to MarkStephen waking up in his apartment. I had hoped to see a little more wrap-up with the Egyptian pantheon.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:46 AM on May 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I enjoyed Layla as avatar of Taweret. She was super cool. Loved the gold wings.
I was a little disappointed in the way the episode ended with the jump to MarkStephen waking up in his apartment. I had hoped to see a little more wrap-up with the Egyptian pantheon.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:46 AM on May 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
How unfortunate that Marc never needed an alter well-versed in contract law until right at that moment...
The production view of this series is interesting - to leave it so wide open in a classic long running serial fashion when Oscar Isaac was pretty known to be reluctant to take any more franchise stuff on after his experience with SW. Of the show itself, in that lens, I thought it ended very well but I still did go, what, with the pre-credits ending. And I have to enjoy the Egyptian superhero bit, lemme just be silly and call it Eid vibes.
posted by cendawanita at 5:48 AM on May 4, 2022
The production view of this series is interesting - to leave it so wide open in a classic long running serial fashion when Oscar Isaac was pretty known to be reluctant to take any more franchise stuff on after his experience with SW. Of the show itself, in that lens, I thought it ended very well but I still did go, what, with the pre-credits ending. And I have to enjoy the Egyptian superhero bit, lemme just be silly and call it Eid vibes.
posted by cendawanita at 5:48 AM on May 4, 2022
Oh, and my question from earlier episodes was answered: we saw a statue of Anubis so he's been put in the deep freeze. Wonder what he did?
posted by orrnyereg at 5:52 AM on May 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by orrnyereg at 5:52 AM on May 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I’m still processing the two final episodes, but I want to focus on a tiny moment which made me unexpectedly emotional.
In this final episode, when Layla saves the family in the van, a girl asks her in Arabic if she’s an Egyptian superhero.
I welled up. I didn’t quite know why, but I, a 41-year-old man, was on the verge of tearing up at a superhero show.
Now, I should say that I’m someone who does get emotionally invested in stories, but usually I understand right away why that is, but at first I was just confused. But now, a few hours later, I think I understand.
While I lived in the US during my twenties, I grew up outside North-America, mostly in Iceland. Like a lot of kids in the 80s and 90s, I read a whole lot of American comic books. While non-American superhero comics existed, they had nothing like the extensive worlds of Marvel and DC. And the worlds of Marvel and DC were very American. Sometimes to a degree that made them barely comprehensible, even if I could ask my dad, who did spend part of his childhood in the US. But sometimes I didn’t really know that there was anything to ask, I just didn’t understand.
But the superheroes themselves, they were readily comprehensible. I could understand easily their concerns, travails and struggles, and the designs were exciting and the battles nerve-wracking. So it wasn’t so difficult to empathize and identify with them. But they were always American, with the exception of my favorite, Black Panther. Even Thor, drawn from the mythology of my ancestors, was very, very American.
So to hear the girl ask Layla if she was an Egyptian superhero, unlocked some long buried desire from my childhood, of having a superhero that was like me, and brought it rushing forth to the surface.
And then Layla answered affirmatively, and I had to pause the show for a moment and gather myself. During a superhero show. A 41-year-old man gathering himself to avoid shedding tears while watching a superhero show.
I guess, like the Moon Knight series demonstrates, these long-buried emotions from childhood are more readily accessible than we think.
posted by Kattullus at 6:01 AM on May 4, 2022 [34 favorites]
In this final episode, when Layla saves the family in the van, a girl asks her in Arabic if she’s an Egyptian superhero.
I welled up. I didn’t quite know why, but I, a 41-year-old man, was on the verge of tearing up at a superhero show.
Now, I should say that I’m someone who does get emotionally invested in stories, but usually I understand right away why that is, but at first I was just confused. But now, a few hours later, I think I understand.
While I lived in the US during my twenties, I grew up outside North-America, mostly in Iceland. Like a lot of kids in the 80s and 90s, I read a whole lot of American comic books. While non-American superhero comics existed, they had nothing like the extensive worlds of Marvel and DC. And the worlds of Marvel and DC were very American. Sometimes to a degree that made them barely comprehensible, even if I could ask my dad, who did spend part of his childhood in the US. But sometimes I didn’t really know that there was anything to ask, I just didn’t understand.
But the superheroes themselves, they were readily comprehensible. I could understand easily their concerns, travails and struggles, and the designs were exciting and the battles nerve-wracking. So it wasn’t so difficult to empathize and identify with them. But they were always American, with the exception of my favorite, Black Panther. Even Thor, drawn from the mythology of my ancestors, was very, very American.
So to hear the girl ask Layla if she was an Egyptian superhero, unlocked some long buried desire from my childhood, of having a superhero that was like me, and brought it rushing forth to the surface.
And then Layla answered affirmatively, and I had to pause the show for a moment and gather myself. During a superhero show. A 41-year-old man gathering himself to avoid shedding tears while watching a superhero show.
I guess, like the Moon Knight series demonstrates, these long-buried emotions from childhood are more readily accessible than we think.
posted by Kattullus at 6:01 AM on May 4, 2022 [34 favorites]
How are they going to make the most intriguing scene in the entire episode be the post-credits stinger?!
posted by rue72 at 7:05 AM on May 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
posted by rue72 at 7:05 AM on May 4, 2022 [6 favorites]
Is this meant to be a stand-alone story? Because I have no idea how MK fits into the MCU.
I barely recall Moon Knight from the comics. If I had seen this sans Marvel title card at the front, I'd assume it was some other studio trying to get in on the current appetite for superheroes.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:50 AM on May 4, 2022
I barely recall Moon Knight from the comics. If I had seen this sans Marvel title card at the front, I'd assume it was some other studio trying to get in on the current appetite for superheroes.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:50 AM on May 4, 2022
Holy shit was that a satisfying ending!
I think Marvel did a really good job of getting into Marc's mind and emotional state, so that when the usual epic superhero battle happened at the climax, there was a lot more emotional weight and meaning behind the battle. Earlier episodes felt off, badly paced or what have you, but it worked out in the end.
It was so good to see Steven come into his own in the end and for Marc to recognize it. They're different, but have to work together and part of that is realizing what each brings to the table.
Goddamn Oscar Isaac killed it in the episode. Being able to switch back and forth between characters multiple times in a single scene was so much fun to watch and admire. If he doesn't at least get an Emmy nod, something is wrong with that whole process.
Can we get a Layla and Tawaret series too? Even if it's something like a one or two episode "short" story? One shots like what would be fantastic if MCU feels like there's not enough story for six episodes.
And then Layla answered affirmatively, and I had to pause the show for a moment and gather myself. During a superhero show. A 41-year-old man gathering himself to avoid shedding tears while watching a superhero show.
No worries man, I get it, sometimes these shows bring up something emotional.
That scene is similar to the "She's not alone" scene from Endgame, where the female superheroes gather together to battle Thanos. Both are slightly clunky as being obvious callouts to how things should be and will be in the future with the MCU, i.e. more inclusive, but those scenes are needed. It's great to see fiction, even corporate fiction, signaling that it's going to include more people who have previously been left out.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:51 AM on May 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
I think Marvel did a really good job of getting into Marc's mind and emotional state, so that when the usual epic superhero battle happened at the climax, there was a lot more emotional weight and meaning behind the battle. Earlier episodes felt off, badly paced or what have you, but it worked out in the end.
It was so good to see Steven come into his own in the end and for Marc to recognize it. They're different, but have to work together and part of that is realizing what each brings to the table.
Goddamn Oscar Isaac killed it in the episode. Being able to switch back and forth between characters multiple times in a single scene was so much fun to watch and admire. If he doesn't at least get an Emmy nod, something is wrong with that whole process.
Can we get a Layla and Tawaret series too? Even if it's something like a one or two episode "short" story? One shots like what would be fantastic if MCU feels like there's not enough story for six episodes.
And then Layla answered affirmatively, and I had to pause the show for a moment and gather myself. During a superhero show. A 41-year-old man gathering himself to avoid shedding tears while watching a superhero show.
No worries man, I get it, sometimes these shows bring up something emotional.
That scene is similar to the "She's not alone" scene from Endgame, where the female superheroes gather together to battle Thanos. Both are slightly clunky as being obvious callouts to how things should be and will be in the future with the MCU, i.e. more inclusive, but those scenes are needed. It's great to see fiction, even corporate fiction, signaling that it's going to include more people who have previously been left out.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:51 AM on May 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Want an entire standalone series about the adventures of Layla as the Avatar of Taweret. "We're going to have such fun!"
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:21 AM on May 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 9:21 AM on May 4, 2022 [15 favorites]
Want an entire standalone series about the adventures of Layla as the Avatar of Taweret. "We're going to have such fun!"
She was a delight, and it will surely not escape the notice of the bean-counters at Disney that May Calamawy is easier on the budget than Oscar Isaac.
A year or two ago, I’d have dismissed the idea that a secondary (or indeed tertiary) character, no matter how charismatic, would wind up with a spin-off series, but we have Agatha Harkness and Echo with their own upcoming shows, so maybe.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:46 AM on May 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
She was a delight, and it will surely not escape the notice of the bean-counters at Disney that May Calamawy is easier on the budget than Oscar Isaac.
A year or two ago, I’d have dismissed the idea that a secondary (or indeed tertiary) character, no matter how charismatic, would wind up with a spin-off series, but we have Agatha Harkness and Echo with their own upcoming shows, so maybe.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:46 AM on May 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Because I have no idea how MK fits into the MCU.
It takes place after the blip because we saw a poster for the GRC in a previous episode.
posted by Pendragon at 10:53 AM on May 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
It takes place after the blip because we saw a poster for the GRC in a previous episode.
posted by Pendragon at 10:53 AM on May 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
I loved everything about this last episode. My only complaint is the absence of Layla at the end, because I got much more of a reconciliation vibe out of her & Marc/Steven than anything else. But allowing that last shot of Steven's apartment was good, too.
Anyway this had a ton of nice touches. I absolutely loved the Egyptian superhero moment and omg I loved both Tawaret and Amit.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:44 AM on May 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
Anyway this had a ton of nice touches. I absolutely loved the Egyptian superhero moment and omg I loved both Tawaret and Amit.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:44 AM on May 4, 2022 [2 favorites]
And then Layla answered affirmatively, and I had to pause the show for a moment and gather myself. During a superhero show. A 41-year-old man gathering himself to avoid shedding tears while watching a superhero show.
Flagged as fantastic. Beats like that mean a whole hell of a lot to a lot of people.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:50 AM on May 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Flagged as fantastic. Beats like that mean a whole hell of a lot to a lot of people.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 11:50 AM on May 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
I was disappointed that Layla did not have flippy hippo-ears as part of her Avatar costume. Yes, they would have been ridiculous- they would also have been delightful, and “ridiculous but delightful” is basically Tawaret’s brand. I demand flippy ears!
Also, it’s a darned shame they killed off Harrow. Ethan Hawke’s flamboyant contempt for Khonshu was hilarious! And also richly deserved - Harrow was a monster, sure, but he was absolutely right about Khonshu being a dick.
posted by Mr. Excellent at 11:57 AM on May 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
Also, it’s a darned shame they killed off Harrow. Ethan Hawke’s flamboyant contempt for Khonshu was hilarious! And also richly deserved - Harrow was a monster, sure, but he was absolutely right about Khonshu being a dick.
posted by Mr. Excellent at 11:57 AM on May 4, 2022 [9 favorites]
I will say my one major disappointment is how the show went all six episodes without a single reference to that big fucking nerd Dracula owing Moon Knight money.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:20 PM on May 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:20 PM on May 4, 2022 [14 favorites]
I love that Jake and Khonsu have this whole other thing going on behind Marc and Steven's back.
It makes Khonsu's reactions to Marc make so much more sense! From the moment he met Marc in his temple, Khonsu was very interested in Marc's "splintered" consciousness (not the word Khonsu used, but I'm blanking at the moment -- it was something similar). But if Jake weren't in the mix, that splintered consciousness wouldn't be handy to Khonsu at all, because neither Steven himself nor the wall between Steven and Marc were especially helpful to him. But Marc having spun off the most violent and ruthless and bloodthirsty parts of himself into a separate person is SUPER useful to Khonsu. Jake presumably is able to farm out his humanity, his conscious, and even his practical concerns to Marc, so he can be pure rage and violence distilled in a way that a person that doesn't share a body couldn't be.
It also makes more sense now why Khonsu would bother strong arming Marc into staying his avatar. Marc clearly doesn't want to "know" about Jake, and might react badly if he were forced to face him. But as long as Jake and Khonsu were able to maintain the cover that Marc was Khonsu's avatar, then all the mayhem that Jake made on Khonsu's behalf could plausibly have been done by Marc, so there was no need for Marc to face Jake or try to put a stop to him.
I also love that Jake apparently keeps Marc in a happy little bubble of ignorance, just like Marc kept Steven in one. And I'm sure that Marc would despise Jake as being immoral and cruel just like Steven originally despised Marc.
And I also love the hint that Marc and Steven are going to break out of that bubble of ignorance, because they're tying themselves up at night, like Steven did when he was losing time to Marc. So they clearly know they're blacking out and bad things happen when they do, so...
But this makes me so frustrated that the show threw most of this into a little post-credits stinger and is just going to leave us hanging! Maybe forever, because Oscar Isaac seems like he basically just wants to be home with his wife and kids at this point in his life. Definitely for YEARS.
Well, and I found the ending melancholy in general. Marc wakes up and immediately asks for Steven, he doesn't want to be alone. But they're meanwhile living the same life that Steven found excruciatingly lonely. And maybe Marc and Steven are enough for each other to not feel lonely anymore but... it also felt to me like Marc slipping further into his own inner world and becoming even more isolated. I mean, definitely noticed that there were only two fish in the tank and Layla was nowhere to be seen. So I dunno. Hopefully she's Tarawet's avatar and living her best life (and OMFG do I want to see that!). But still sad for Marc and Steven, honestly.
posted by rue72 at 2:35 PM on May 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
It makes Khonsu's reactions to Marc make so much more sense! From the moment he met Marc in his temple, Khonsu was very interested in Marc's "splintered" consciousness (not the word Khonsu used, but I'm blanking at the moment -- it was something similar). But if Jake weren't in the mix, that splintered consciousness wouldn't be handy to Khonsu at all, because neither Steven himself nor the wall between Steven and Marc were especially helpful to him. But Marc having spun off the most violent and ruthless and bloodthirsty parts of himself into a separate person is SUPER useful to Khonsu. Jake presumably is able to farm out his humanity, his conscious, and even his practical concerns to Marc, so he can be pure rage and violence distilled in a way that a person that doesn't share a body couldn't be.
It also makes more sense now why Khonsu would bother strong arming Marc into staying his avatar. Marc clearly doesn't want to "know" about Jake, and might react badly if he were forced to face him. But as long as Jake and Khonsu were able to maintain the cover that Marc was Khonsu's avatar, then all the mayhem that Jake made on Khonsu's behalf could plausibly have been done by Marc, so there was no need for Marc to face Jake or try to put a stop to him.
I also love that Jake apparently keeps Marc in a happy little bubble of ignorance, just like Marc kept Steven in one. And I'm sure that Marc would despise Jake as being immoral and cruel just like Steven originally despised Marc.
And I also love the hint that Marc and Steven are going to break out of that bubble of ignorance, because they're tying themselves up at night, like Steven did when he was losing time to Marc. So they clearly know they're blacking out and bad things happen when they do, so...
But this makes me so frustrated that the show threw most of this into a little post-credits stinger and is just going to leave us hanging! Maybe forever, because Oscar Isaac seems like he basically just wants to be home with his wife and kids at this point in his life. Definitely for YEARS.
Well, and I found the ending melancholy in general. Marc wakes up and immediately asks for Steven, he doesn't want to be alone. But they're meanwhile living the same life that Steven found excruciatingly lonely. And maybe Marc and Steven are enough for each other to not feel lonely anymore but... it also felt to me like Marc slipping further into his own inner world and becoming even more isolated. I mean, definitely noticed that there were only two fish in the tank and Layla was nowhere to be seen. So I dunno. Hopefully she's Tarawet's avatar and living her best life (and OMFG do I want to see that!). But still sad for Marc and Steven, honestly.
posted by rue72 at 2:35 PM on May 4, 2022 [12 favorites]
As a person who likes Moon Knight, Marvel, and Moorhead and Benson, you could scarcely have convinced me I would be this meh on this show.
I mean... I didn't hate it or anything, but I liked it slightly less than Hawkeye, when I would have bet cash I'd have liked it more than Loki.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:57 PM on May 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean... I didn't hate it or anything, but I liked it slightly less than Hawkeye, when I would have bet cash I'd have liked it more than Loki.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:57 PM on May 4, 2022 [1 favorite]
I mean... I didn't hate it or anything, but I liked it slightly less than Hawkeye
That's setting the bar pretty high, since Hawkeye was the kind of show that wrote, cast, blocked, rehearsed, and performed the centerpiece number from an imaginary Avengers musical, basically just for one scene. It had a better Yelena scene (really, more than one of them) than all of Black Widow, and was the first MCU thing to bring one of the Netflix Marvel characters into the MCU proper. This show was much more of a stand-alone show--I kept expecting one of the Asgardians to make a last-act appearance, maybe something tying into the God-Killer coming up in the Thor movie--but it was fine for what it was, and they can always do something with the Egyptian gods in the movie. I do want to see Layla/Taweret again (some sources have her becoming the MCU version of an old character called the Scarlet Scarab, who is apparently very loosely based on the original Blue Beetle of Charlton/DC).
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:55 PM on May 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
That's setting the bar pretty high, since Hawkeye was the kind of show that wrote, cast, blocked, rehearsed, and performed the centerpiece number from an imaginary Avengers musical, basically just for one scene. It had a better Yelena scene (really, more than one of them) than all of Black Widow, and was the first MCU thing to bring one of the Netflix Marvel characters into the MCU proper. This show was much more of a stand-alone show--I kept expecting one of the Asgardians to make a last-act appearance, maybe something tying into the God-Killer coming up in the Thor movie--but it was fine for what it was, and they can always do something with the Egyptian gods in the movie. I do want to see Layla/Taweret again (some sources have her becoming the MCU version of an old character called the Scarlet Scarab, who is apparently very loosely based on the original Blue Beetle of Charlton/DC).
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:55 PM on May 4, 2022 [3 favorites]
Really enjoyed this one! Every MCU miniseries seems to end with a big ol' slugfest, but this one seemed to tie everything together satisfactorily while leaving things open enough for a second series. Good to see Steven getting rescued and Layla as an Egyptian Superhero.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:11 AM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:11 AM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I found this episode a let down, to be honest. I had the same problem with it as I had Loki; the deliberate choice to cut the story off without a bunch of resolutions. Where do Layla and Marc/Stephen stand? I also found the decision to not show the avatar fight and the final defeat of Harrow a bit frustrating, although I did enjoy Marc making a choice not to kill him.
The final reveal was great, but it honestly would have been nicer to have just a little more breathing room before such an abrupt end.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 3:56 AM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
The final reveal was great, but it honestly would have been nicer to have just a little more breathing room before such an abrupt end.
posted by Cannon Fodder at 3:56 AM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
This was the shortest MCU Disney+ final episode so far. Given that this episode was so choppy and abrupt, it makes me wonder if they had a longer episode shot, but they only edited this episode down after they made their final decision about a second season.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:04 AM on May 5, 2022
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:04 AM on May 5, 2022
I think MK might actually be my favourite MCU Disney+ show so far. I enjoyed the ending a lot. Most of the emotional beats landed for me. I didn't predict Layla becoming Taweret's avatar but I loved the way it played out, and I was delighted she had the good sense to turn down Konshu, and I didn't expect the reveal that Jake had been Konshu's real ally the whole time, although now with hindsight of course it makes sense. What really made this show for me was the Marc/Steven dynamic and Oscar Isaac's performance - it was so good the whole way through, and the payoff in the last episode, with Marc and Steven working together and cooperating seamlessly, was very satisfying.
The ending did feel a bit too abrupt, and in particular I would have liked one final scene between Layla and Marc/Steven to establish where their relationship is at now. Is the divorce off? Is Layla ok with being married to two people? (Almost certainly yes, but it'd be nice to see that). Is Marc ok with the idea of Steven and Layla being attracted to each other now that he and Steven are fully reconciled? Probably, but again it would've been good to see that. Also Steven's last line in that final dream sequence about saving the world doesn't make sense to me, because I thought that as far as Steven and Marc know at this point, Konshu has released them and they're done with MK, which would mean no superpowers.
Basically, though, overall I was very happy with this and I really do hope they manage to tempt Oscar Isaac back for a second season. Failing that, I would absolutely be on board for the Layla and Taweret show.
posted by damsel with a dulcimer at 5:01 AM on May 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
The ending did feel a bit too abrupt, and in particular I would have liked one final scene between Layla and Marc/Steven to establish where their relationship is at now. Is the divorce off? Is Layla ok with being married to two people? (Almost certainly yes, but it'd be nice to see that). Is Marc ok with the idea of Steven and Layla being attracted to each other now that he and Steven are fully reconciled? Probably, but again it would've been good to see that. Also Steven's last line in that final dream sequence about saving the world doesn't make sense to me, because I thought that as far as Steven and Marc know at this point, Konshu has released them and they're done with MK, which would mean no superpowers.
Basically, though, overall I was very happy with this and I really do hope they manage to tempt Oscar Isaac back for a second season. Failing that, I would absolutely be on board for the Layla and Taweret show.
posted by damsel with a dulcimer at 5:01 AM on May 5, 2022 [10 favorites]
But mainly Steven was all right, and that was about 90% of what I needed in order to like this, if I'm being completely honest.
posted by damsel with a dulcimer at 5:48 AM on May 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by damsel with a dulcimer at 5:48 AM on May 5, 2022 [4 favorites]
I want to see more high budget media about Egyptian mythology and its pantheon. I started watching for Oscar Isaac without any knowledge of the character and ended up loving the background of gods and avatars and the associated rivalries and drama.
posted by slimepuppy at 10:04 AM on May 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by slimepuppy at 10:04 AM on May 5, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not sure I've ever seen a cliffhanger get switcheroo'd in a stinger before.
Kinda liked this show, though it's not very good. May Calamawy made fun faces; wish I'd seen more of her. Steven and Marc kind of oscillated between two not very likable characters. Stuff like looking the room of people Marc had killed, "Marrakech.. Baghdad" like dude you just killed TWENTY bodyguards at that spear polo party with some pretty questionable things. I couldn't take the show's morality very seriously.
I kept coming back to like, "So wait.. Marc was like, going to Steven's job, and doing it?? And faking Steven's accent???"
I did catch the Bill Sienkiewicz reference and then remembered Elektra and spent awhile just remembering how fucking good that art was gefeoewfhowfhiahaf.
posted by fleacircus at 10:22 AM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
Kinda liked this show, though it's not very good. May Calamawy made fun faces; wish I'd seen more of her. Steven and Marc kind of oscillated between two not very likable characters. Stuff like looking the room of people Marc had killed, "Marrakech.. Baghdad" like dude you just killed TWENTY bodyguards at that spear polo party with some pretty questionable things. I couldn't take the show's morality very seriously.
I kept coming back to like, "So wait.. Marc was like, going to Steven's job, and doing it?? And faking Steven's accent???"
I did catch the Bill Sienkiewicz reference and then remembered Elektra and spent awhile just remembering how fucking good that art was gefeoewfhowfhiahaf.
posted by fleacircus at 10:22 AM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I kept coming back to like, "So wait.. Marc was like, going to Steven's job, and doing it?? And faking Steven's accent???"
As far as I can figure, the chaos agent is Jake when it comes to living in the others' lives. Marc was pretty clear about keeping the boundaries between him and Steve (the only alter he's aware of) until his mother's death, and then the bleeding into each other's lives only got bad enough just as we began with the show. And even so he only keeps to night time/off hours (Steven is just on contract/part-timer or something with odd day hours), until he couldn't (I'm thinking of the bad fish replacement attempt). But Jake is clearly more opportunistic, re: the unlucky date night. That said, I think we're meant to take how much of a wallflower Steven is, as an explanation why no one would notice the changing accents (or just attribute it to him being a weirdo). I mean, the security guy consistently forgets his name (or Jake could be giving him different ones).
posted by cendawanita at 10:32 AM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
As far as I can figure, the chaos agent is Jake when it comes to living in the others' lives. Marc was pretty clear about keeping the boundaries between him and Steve (the only alter he's aware of) until his mother's death, and then the bleeding into each other's lives only got bad enough just as we began with the show. And even so he only keeps to night time/off hours (Steven is just on contract/part-timer or something with odd day hours), until he couldn't (I'm thinking of the bad fish replacement attempt). But Jake is clearly more opportunistic, re: the unlucky date night. That said, I think we're meant to take how much of a wallflower Steven is, as an explanation why no one would notice the changing accents (or just attribute it to him being a weirdo). I mean, the security guy consistently forgets his name (or Jake could be giving him different ones).
posted by cendawanita at 10:32 AM on May 5, 2022 [2 favorites]
I guess it's an unpopular opinion but this whole series just left me flat. I like Oscar Isaac and he did the best you could do with the material. I guess I feel like all of this was done better in Legion.
posted by Justin Case at 1:24 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by Justin Case at 1:24 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I really felt let down by this series; I was excited by the first episode and it just kind of went downhill from there. This episode just seemed so perfunctory and rote that I was nodding off a bit during the fight scenes.
posted by octothorpe at 6:51 PM on May 5, 2022
posted by octothorpe at 6:51 PM on May 5, 2022
I liked most the episodes until this last one -- solid Bs, capped with a D. My bias is that I'm 100% team Steven -- no interest in Marc, his punching, his costume, his cliched child trauma. Isaac's comedic acting with Steven was genuinely surprising and funny, and kept me well distracted from the usual clunkiness of the Marvel gestalt. Until this last episode, where even after their reconciliation, Steven was basically gone (doing martial arts even!), and it just devolved into YET MORE CGI punching. I mean, how much more of that can people wish to consume? Literally hundreds of Marvel hours of it at this point. While Steven was still active and hilarious I could overlook this world where our two moral options seem to be "justified murder of children" and "justified murder of adults," and the final grand moral stand has our hero saying "I won't -- but you can go ahead and murder him if you want." Like WandaVision, it was fun while it was goofily doing its own thing and busy with what's really the only interesting part of any superhero narrative, the origin story. But at the end these shows just seem doomed to collapse into more Marvel punching gunk.
posted by chortly at 8:50 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
posted by chortly at 8:50 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
I did catch the Bill Sienkiewicz reference and then remembered Elektra and spent awhile just remembering how fucking good that art was
Before he developed his own highly unique style, Sienkiewicz was very much like the recently-departed Neal Adams, who had a big role in helping to turn Batman back into a more serious character after the early 60s tomfoolery.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:21 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Before he developed his own highly unique style, Sienkiewicz was very much like the recently-departed Neal Adams, who had a big role in helping to turn Batman back into a more serious character after the early 60s tomfoolery.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:21 PM on May 5, 2022 [1 favorite]
Someone a couple threads ago mentioned that Konshu in the comics was at one point just a straight up villain so I was not surprised at the stinger, though I was a bit disappointed I guess? Unless Konshu also has multiple personalities, it kinda felt like a big 'haha, unreliable narrator this whole time, gotcha!' moment tacked onto the post-credits that kinda undercut my experience of the rest of the show once we hit it.
posted by lazaruslong at 8:02 AM on May 6, 2022
posted by lazaruslong at 8:02 AM on May 6, 2022
My bias is that I'm 100% team Steven -- no interest in Marc, his punching, his costume, his cliched child trauma.
The podcast The Ringer has an interview with one of Moon Knight's exec producers (his name is escaping me, but it's the House of R episode on Asylum/Ep. 5) and he talked a lot about this.
The producers/writers knew Marc is pretty unlikable -- I mean, even aside from the death and his gloomy attitude, one of his main character traits is pushing people away, and that's not desirable in a protagonist. So they decided to try and create a very appealing character, Steven, and get us to fall in love with Steven, and THEN introduce Marc as Steven's protector and someone who loves him, too. They figured that if they could introduce Marc within the light of "he's great to this character we love!" that the audience would find Marc more appealing.
I thought that was interesting, and a smart idea... but I think that the show didn't quite execute it, because a lot of the commentary that I was listening to (including House of R) assumed that Marc didn't really like Steven much at all, thought he was a dweeb, etc. And there were also lots of audience members who didn't like Steven and thought he was a dweeb.
I personally liked Steven a lot, and also related a lot to Marc's feelings toward him, so the show's attempt to get me to like Marc "via" Steven worked great for me. But maybe it didn't quite deliver for a lot of people?
I dunno, I also found Marc and Steven both very relatable in their own ways. It worked for me. The action and especially the character blackouts during climactic moments also really worked for me.
The thing that didn't quite work was that there was such a heavy emphasis on relationships, but there wasn't really any time to explore those relationships. I really don't like that we didn't get to see ANYTHING about Layla at the end, and really got very, very little idea of her and Marc's relationship pre-show. I also felt like there was SO MUCH there about the relationships between the Egyptian gods, and we got virtually nothing about it. And Harrow, his thing with Khonsu was really intriguing, but we never even got Khonsu to acknowledge that he knew Harrow previously, I don't think? I also find Khonsu's relationship with Marc and Steven really interesting if he was really just using and appeasing them to get access to Jake. And obviously, Jake's relationship to all this...
I think it's actually a compliment to the show that it managed to set up so many complicated and interesting relationships and characters with such economy. To me, it seems like a lot of these characters and relationships were built with a LOT of thought and care. I think that Marc's relationship with his dad is fantastically well done, for example. But apparently, a 6 episode (4.5 hour-ish?) season is just not long enough to be as character-driven as this show was trying to be. I think it needed a lot more room to breathe.
Anyhow, I'm now watching Mohamed Diab movies on Netflix and Kanopy because I'm intrigued lol.
posted by rue72 at 10:57 AM on May 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
The podcast The Ringer has an interview with one of Moon Knight's exec producers (his name is escaping me, but it's the House of R episode on Asylum/Ep. 5) and he talked a lot about this.
The producers/writers knew Marc is pretty unlikable -- I mean, even aside from the death and his gloomy attitude, one of his main character traits is pushing people away, and that's not desirable in a protagonist. So they decided to try and create a very appealing character, Steven, and get us to fall in love with Steven, and THEN introduce Marc as Steven's protector and someone who loves him, too. They figured that if they could introduce Marc within the light of "he's great to this character we love!" that the audience would find Marc more appealing.
I thought that was interesting, and a smart idea... but I think that the show didn't quite execute it, because a lot of the commentary that I was listening to (including House of R) assumed that Marc didn't really like Steven much at all, thought he was a dweeb, etc. And there were also lots of audience members who didn't like Steven and thought he was a dweeb.
I personally liked Steven a lot, and also related a lot to Marc's feelings toward him, so the show's attempt to get me to like Marc "via" Steven worked great for me. But maybe it didn't quite deliver for a lot of people?
I dunno, I also found Marc and Steven both very relatable in their own ways. It worked for me. The action and especially the character blackouts during climactic moments also really worked for me.
The thing that didn't quite work was that there was such a heavy emphasis on relationships, but there wasn't really any time to explore those relationships. I really don't like that we didn't get to see ANYTHING about Layla at the end, and really got very, very little idea of her and Marc's relationship pre-show. I also felt like there was SO MUCH there about the relationships between the Egyptian gods, and we got virtually nothing about it. And Harrow, his thing with Khonsu was really intriguing, but we never even got Khonsu to acknowledge that he knew Harrow previously, I don't think? I also find Khonsu's relationship with Marc and Steven really interesting if he was really just using and appeasing them to get access to Jake. And obviously, Jake's relationship to all this...
I think it's actually a compliment to the show that it managed to set up so many complicated and interesting relationships and characters with such economy. To me, it seems like a lot of these characters and relationships were built with a LOT of thought and care. I think that Marc's relationship with his dad is fantastically well done, for example. But apparently, a 6 episode (4.5 hour-ish?) season is just not long enough to be as character-driven as this show was trying to be. I think it needed a lot more room to breathe.
Anyhow, I'm now watching Mohamed Diab movies on Netflix and Kanopy because I'm intrigued lol.
posted by rue72 at 10:57 AM on May 6, 2022 [7 favorites]
Rolling my eyes very hard at everyone who doesn't want to see superhero fights in their comic book superhero shows. Oh no! Are there gonna be digital effects in a show about people with superpowers?
A climactic fight between the heroes and villains while their gods fight in the background, Godzilla-sized, in front of the skyline of a pyramid? That's very much the sort of thing I wanna see in a Marvel show. I also want good writing, good performances, and interesting stories, but those are the things I want in every show.
Is this the only MCU thing that actually skips over the climactic moment of the final battle? One moment Marc is laying helpless at Harrow's feet and then suddenly the fight is over and Harrow is defeated. That seemed pretty bold. And for good story reasons that had been set up earlier, not just some idiosyncratic directing style choice.
posted by straight at 2:02 AM on May 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
A climactic fight between the heroes and villains while their gods fight in the background, Godzilla-sized, in front of the skyline of a pyramid? That's very much the sort of thing I wanna see in a Marvel show. I also want good writing, good performances, and interesting stories, but those are the things I want in every show.
Is this the only MCU thing that actually skips over the climactic moment of the final battle? One moment Marc is laying helpless at Harrow's feet and then suddenly the fight is over and Harrow is defeated. That seemed pretty bold. And for good story reasons that had been set up earlier, not just some idiosyncratic directing style choice.
posted by straight at 2:02 AM on May 7, 2022 [18 favorites]
I wasn't surprised by the superhero end-fight cliches but I keep hoping over hope that some filmmaker will find a different way to end a movie/series.
posted by octothorpe at 8:41 AM on May 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 8:41 AM on May 7, 2022 [3 favorites]
For me, the issue is that Marvel third act fight scenes are consistently bad. Even Marvel movies that otherwise have really fun, compelling action sequences throughout the rest of the movie (Shang Chi, Black Panther) end with these comparatively boring fights that feel like watching a video game cutscene at times.
I enjoy action movies and have seen plenty of films with compelling third act fights, so not sure why Marvel's are consistently meh to me.
posted by Emily's Fist at 8:33 PM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
I enjoy action movies and have seen plenty of films with compelling third act fights, so not sure why Marvel's are consistently meh to me.
posted by Emily's Fist at 8:33 PM on May 8, 2022 [2 favorites]
The thing that didn't quite work was that there was such a heavy emphasis on relationships, but there wasn't really any time to explore those relationships.
This has been the big problem for me with basically all the Marvel shows. I feel like they succeed when they lean into relationships and characterization, even when the rest of the show is a total mess. For me, the epitome of this is Captain America & The Winter Soldier, where the whole thing rested on a weird backstory and world-building that were never adequately explained, but there was enough chemistry between the two leads that you could sort of gloss over how the main super-serum-terrorist plot was complete nonsense.
Wandavision, as the earlier iteration of Legion Lite™️, did a good job of this - the universe and style kept changing around, but there were consistent characters who developed relationships throughout. Hawkeye was mostly focused on Barton and Bishop's relationship, to its benefit. Loki was good when it kept its eye on the Owen Wilson / Loki relationship, and bad when it focused on the Loki / some alternate version of Loki introduced about 5 minutes of screen time ago.
Anyways, all of that is to say that I didn't find the relationships in Moon Knight particularly satisfying. We still have basically no idea who Layla is, as rue57 noted (I didn't even realize she was Egyptian until she pronounced herself to be so), and Konshu seems to be the most complex character on the show.
For me, the issue is that Marvel third act fight scenes are consistently bad
I agree. I guess it's true to the comics, but can't the gods of vengeance and, uh, precognitive justice do something more interesting than just punch each other when they're in battle? It does at least make me appreciate Legion's psychic combat rendered as dance battles more in retrospect.
posted by whir at 8:51 PM on May 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
This has been the big problem for me with basically all the Marvel shows. I feel like they succeed when they lean into relationships and characterization, even when the rest of the show is a total mess. For me, the epitome of this is Captain America & The Winter Soldier, where the whole thing rested on a weird backstory and world-building that were never adequately explained, but there was enough chemistry between the two leads that you could sort of gloss over how the main super-serum-terrorist plot was complete nonsense.
Wandavision, as the earlier iteration of Legion Lite™️, did a good job of this - the universe and style kept changing around, but there were consistent characters who developed relationships throughout. Hawkeye was mostly focused on Barton and Bishop's relationship, to its benefit. Loki was good when it kept its eye on the Owen Wilson / Loki relationship, and bad when it focused on the Loki / some alternate version of Loki introduced about 5 minutes of screen time ago.
Anyways, all of that is to say that I didn't find the relationships in Moon Knight particularly satisfying. We still have basically no idea who Layla is, as rue57 noted (I didn't even realize she was Egyptian until she pronounced herself to be so), and Konshu seems to be the most complex character on the show.
For me, the issue is that Marvel third act fight scenes are consistently bad
I agree. I guess it's true to the comics, but can't the gods of vengeance and, uh, precognitive justice do something more interesting than just punch each other when they're in battle? It does at least make me appreciate Legion's psychic combat rendered as dance battles more in retrospect.
posted by whir at 8:51 PM on May 8, 2022 [3 favorites]
For me, the issue is that Marvel third act fight scenes are consistently bad. Even Marvel movies that otherwise have really fun, compelling action sequences throughout the rest of the movie (Shang Chi, Black Panther) end with these comparatively boring fights that feel like watching a video game cutscene at times.
That fight on the train tracks in Black Panther made me so sad watching it. The action scenes up until that point were all so grounded and "real" looking and then we get this embarrassing video game cut-scene of a fight that looks totally weightless and plastic.
posted by octothorpe at 5:40 AM on May 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
That fight on the train tracks in Black Panther made me so sad watching it. The action scenes up until that point were all so grounded and "real" looking and then we get this embarrassing video game cut-scene of a fight that looks totally weightless and plastic.
posted by octothorpe at 5:40 AM on May 9, 2022 [7 favorites]
Marvel third act fight scenes are consistently bad
Not just Marvel. The first Wonder Woman movie had a crappy fight scene with Ares at the end; Zack Snyder's Justice League basically has Flash using a do-over from a saved game to beat the big bad; even Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy ended with Bruce surviving a nuclear explosion by (mumble mumble). The only climactic superhero fight scenes that I can think of off the top of my head that I really liked were mostly James Gunn-directed ones, the GotG movies and The Suicide Squad, which had Harley Quinn and a bunch of rats swimming through the giant space starfish's eyeball. Otherwise, the movie makers feel compelled to cap off the film with something that's bigger and more spectacular than what's come before, hence the CGI fireworks.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:10 AM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Not just Marvel. The first Wonder Woman movie had a crappy fight scene with Ares at the end; Zack Snyder's Justice League basically has Flash using a do-over from a saved game to beat the big bad; even Christopher Nolan's Batman trilogy ended with Bruce surviving a nuclear explosion by (mumble mumble). The only climactic superhero fight scenes that I can think of off the top of my head that I really liked were mostly James Gunn-directed ones, the GotG movies and The Suicide Squad, which had Harley Quinn and a bunch of rats swimming through the giant space starfish's eyeball. Otherwise, the movie makers feel compelled to cap off the film with something that's bigger and more spectacular than what's come before, hence the CGI fireworks.
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:10 AM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
FWIW I think Inception and TENET had worse final act battle scenes than any Marvel movie I've seen.
posted by fleacircus at 6:42 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
posted by fleacircus at 6:42 PM on May 9, 2022 [3 favorites]
Also, it’s a darned shame they killed off Harrow.
yeah there's definitely no chance that an avatar of a god could come back from the dead after being shot a few times
posted by FatherDagon at 9:31 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
yeah there's definitely no chance that an avatar of a god could come back from the dead after being shot a few times
posted by FatherDagon at 9:31 AM on May 10, 2022 [4 favorites]
Moon Knight’s May Calamawy on Layla’s Future and Love of Marshmallows [Vulture / Archive]
posted by ellieBOA at 3:15 AM on May 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
posted by ellieBOA at 3:15 AM on May 11, 2022 [5 favorites]
The thing that didn't quite work was that there was such a heavy emphasis on relationships, but there wasn't really any time to explore those relationships.
I need to watch the last two episodes more closely as I was distracted throughout, but for me the core relationship of this series was between Marc and Steven and so that worked. (Although I would have liked Layla to have more development, I thought that her core relationship ended up being with Tawaret was nice.)
posted by warriorqueen at 9:19 AM on May 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
I need to watch the last two episodes more closely as I was distracted throughout, but for me the core relationship of this series was between Marc and Steven and so that worked. (Although I would have liked Layla to have more development, I thought that her core relationship ended up being with Tawaret was nice.)
posted by warriorqueen at 9:19 AM on May 11, 2022 [2 favorites]
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What a waste.
posted by Faintdreams at 5:20 AM on May 4, 2022 [3 favorites]