Avatar: The Way of Water (2022)
December 18, 2022 12:32 PM - Subscribe
Jake Sully lives with his newfound family formed on the planet of Pandora. Once a familiar threat returns to finish what was previously started, Jake must work with Neytiri and the army of the Na'vi race to protect their planet.
I went on opening night and the theatre was basically empty, which I didn't take to be a good sign but I gather from the news that it's doing ok for an opening weekend elsewhere.
While it was visually gorgeous, I found it plodding and far too slow. It just didn't have enough going on to fill out the >3hr run time. To me, the conflict between the Na'vi and Quaritch/the space-whalers was too cookie cutter and too close to the first Avatar to be all that interesting.
Watching left me really wanting to go scuba diving again soon (unfortunately it is -21C and snowing right now, so I'll have to wait on that)
posted by selenized at 2:56 PM on December 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
While it was visually gorgeous, I found it plodding and far too slow. It just didn't have enough going on to fill out the >3hr run time. To me, the conflict between the Na'vi and Quaritch/the space-whalers was too cookie cutter and too close to the first Avatar to be all that interesting.
Watching left me really wanting to go scuba diving again soon (unfortunately it is -21C and snowing right now, so I'll have to wait on that)
posted by selenized at 2:56 PM on December 18, 2022 [1 favorite]
Avatar 3 is pretty much nailed on to come out in two years time, the real question is whether 4 and 5 get greenlit. It depends on how much money this one makes, but early indications suggest it’ll do fine, if not as much as the first.
As for myself, I enjoyed it! It wasn’t as visually shocking as the first - I’m not sure anything in a cinema could be - but I loved the underwater sections and even though it was three hours long, I never felt it dragged. And while I could tell the difference between the 24 and 48 fps sections (I saw it in IMAX 3D) they didn’t stick out, which was good.
posted by adrianhon at 2:59 PM on December 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
As for myself, I enjoyed it! It wasn’t as visually shocking as the first - I’m not sure anything in a cinema could be - but I loved the underwater sections and even though it was three hours long, I never felt it dragged. And while I could tell the difference between the 24 and 48 fps sections (I saw it in IMAX 3D) they didn’t stick out, which was good.
posted by adrianhon at 2:59 PM on December 18, 2022 [3 favorites]
Two and Three (as well as parts of Four) were all shot at the same time.
So at least two more sequels are coming out, because they're paid for and already shot.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:37 AM on December 19, 2022
So at least two more sequels are coming out, because they're paid for and already shot.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 12:37 AM on December 19, 2022
Hmm I don't think that's quite right. Avatar 2 is what just came out, and Avatar 3 was also shot, yes, along with the first act of Avatar 4. So there is one more sequel (Avatar 3) that's definitely coming out, but anything beyond that (Avatar 4+) remains in the balance. There's still a huge amount of work and money to be spent on Avatar 4, for instance, and if Avatar 2 bombs then it just won't happen; the story will be wrapped up in Avatar 3.
posted by adrianhon at 12:57 AM on December 19, 2022
posted by adrianhon at 12:57 AM on December 19, 2022
I meant to edit that second sentence. Yes, four isn't done.
He's already talking about six and seven now, too.
So much Avatar.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:00 AM on December 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
He's already talking about six and seven now, too.
So much Avatar.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:00 AM on December 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
Avatar: The Way of Water’ Dives In With Below-Expectations $134 Million Debut
posted by Fleebnork at 4:42 AM on December 19, 2022
posted by Fleebnork at 4:42 AM on December 19, 2022
Visually stunning, of course. Paid the imax price and don’t regret it. I saw it was also available in ScreenX and 4D formats.
But I kept thinking, “Why everyone gotta be so racist?” I mean, I can excuse the dumb humans, although in 130 years, I was hoping we’d be a little further along. But then all the Na’vi apparently are racist against each other too. For a planet that is all one with nature and stuff, it seems very high school clique-y, and dare I say, lazy.
Also lazy, I know the death of a loved one is emotional, but for a people who have a scientifically confirmed afterlife, and again, the one with nature stuff, it would have been nice to have seen someone in the family react with a death-is-a-part-of-life thing, instead of I-am-distraught-and-you-will-pay.
Any why was Kiri looking at that hole in the sand under the water!?
What’s in the hole!!??
posted by LEGO Damashii at 9:22 AM on December 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
But I kept thinking, “Why everyone gotta be so racist?” I mean, I can excuse the dumb humans, although in 130 years, I was hoping we’d be a little further along. But then all the Na’vi apparently are racist against each other too. For a planet that is all one with nature and stuff, it seems very high school clique-y, and dare I say, lazy.
Also lazy, I know the death of a loved one is emotional, but for a people who have a scientifically confirmed afterlife, and again, the one with nature stuff, it would have been nice to have seen someone in the family react with a death-is-a-part-of-life thing, instead of I-am-distraught-and-you-will-pay.
Any why was Kiri looking at that hole in the sand under the water!?
What’s in the hole!!??
posted by LEGO Damashii at 9:22 AM on December 19, 2022 [5 favorites]
So at least two more sequels are coming out, because they're paid for and already shot.
So was Batgirl, although obviously that had not had the GDP of a small country lavished on it.
posted by Grangousier at 12:53 PM on December 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
So was Batgirl, although obviously that had not had the GDP of a small country lavished on it.
posted by Grangousier at 12:53 PM on December 19, 2022 [2 favorites]
I'm going to go out on a limb and guess that James Cameron has a better contract than the two guys who made Batgirl.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:29 PM on December 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 2:29 PM on December 19, 2022 [4 favorites]
Finally got to see this last night in IMAX 3D. For the life of me I can't understand how *anybody* likes that high frame rate stuff. And, that goes triple when it keeps switching back and forth. For these 30 seconds it's so realistic that you really feel like you're on Pandora, next 30 seconds destroy the immersion and you get an extremely well done video game cut scene.
James Cameron is maybe more afraid of drowning than anybody in the world - or possibly anybody ever. Those scenes were so visceral and gripping. He cribbed a little from his other soggy blockbusters like the Abyss and Titanic, but most of it felt completely original.
Top, top, TOP notch creature (and mech) designs. The crab mechs, the swimming/flying fish mounts and the whales were my faves, but everything really so nicely fit the environment. I loved the sea Na'vi and how they were more adapted for life on the sea - and the blue-green color palette is so great.
The script was really not awesome. How many times are you gonna hold those kids hostage? I'm not looking forward to more of Mr. Mean Marine and I really hope the next movie lets the Smurfs go on offense for a change.
posted by ssmith at 9:03 AM on December 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
James Cameron is maybe more afraid of drowning than anybody in the world - or possibly anybody ever. Those scenes were so visceral and gripping. He cribbed a little from his other soggy blockbusters like the Abyss and Titanic, but most of it felt completely original.
Top, top, TOP notch creature (and mech) designs. The crab mechs, the swimming/flying fish mounts and the whales were my faves, but everything really so nicely fit the environment. I loved the sea Na'vi and how they were more adapted for life on the sea - and the blue-green color palette is so great.
The script was really not awesome. How many times are you gonna hold those kids hostage? I'm not looking forward to more of Mr. Mean Marine and I really hope the next movie lets the Smurfs go on offense for a change.
posted by ssmith at 9:03 AM on December 23, 2022 [3 favorites]
For the life of me I can't understand how *anybody* likes that high frame rate stuff.
It's weird because if I stop and think about it then it should be almost-objectively better. But I don't like it. I remember going to see The Hobbit in HFR and it was striking how much it felt like watching live theater with Ian McKellen, like he was really there, which *ought to* be better. But 24fps has trained me so strongly to find that look, that "just barely enough frame rate so that the audience doesn't demand their money back" look, that I prefer it now.
I think the way they were switching back and forth didn't work. Another way to do it, like the way _Brainstorm_ switched between aspect ratios and between "upscaled" and native 70mm depending on whether you were watching reality or a recording, might have worked better if they'd found a way to link it to the story.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:49 AM on December 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
It's weird because if I stop and think about it then it should be almost-objectively better. But I don't like it. I remember going to see The Hobbit in HFR and it was striking how much it felt like watching live theater with Ian McKellen, like he was really there, which *ought to* be better. But 24fps has trained me so strongly to find that look, that "just barely enough frame rate so that the audience doesn't demand their money back" look, that I prefer it now.
I think the way they were switching back and forth didn't work. Another way to do it, like the way _Brainstorm_ switched between aspect ratios and between "upscaled" and native 70mm depending on whether you were watching reality or a recording, might have worked better if they'd found a way to link it to the story.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 10:49 AM on December 23, 2022 [1 favorite]
For the life of me I can't understand how *anybody* likes that high frame rate stuff.
In my humble opinion, I think it's the mistaken belief that realism is conveyed by crisply defining every detail. Real vision has a lot of out-of-focus aspects.
posted by ishmael at 12:18 AM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
In my humble opinion, I think it's the mistaken belief that realism is conveyed by crisply defining every detail. Real vision has a lot of out-of-focus aspects.
posted by ishmael at 12:18 AM on December 27, 2022 [2 favorites]
I saw the Kermode and Mayo review of this movie, and came to this movie with the lowest of expectations.
So, while I agree with all the crits above, I surprisingly ended up tearing up at a couple different spots.
Doggonit, some of whale and kid stuff got to me.
And Kiri reveling in the wonder of the world, while at the same time struggling with how her sensitivity sets her apart from others.
posted by ishmael at 12:26 AM on December 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
So, while I agree with all the crits above, I surprisingly ended up tearing up at a couple different spots.
Doggonit, some of whale and kid stuff got to me.
And Kiri reveling in the wonder of the world, while at the same time struggling with how her sensitivity sets her apart from others.
posted by ishmael at 12:26 AM on December 27, 2022 [1 favorite]
For the life of me I can't understand how *anybody* likes that high frame rate stuff.
I wonder how much of the 'uncanny' look is owing to the fact that 24 FPS has been the language of cinema for decades. How much is an objective assessment, and how much is tied to the conventions we're simply used to?
I found the switching noticeable and a bit jarring in general, though not the end of the world. It sort of seemed like there were certain points where the FPS felt really slow -- so much so that it was uncomfortably reminiscent of a computer dropping frames / struggling to keep up. THAT I found very annoying, and it made me wish that they had committed to high FPS throughout the whole film. IMO it might just be better to rip off the band-aid and get used to the new tech. As I recall, many viewers had the same reaction when first watching Game of Thrones on TVs with high refresh rates and eventually adapted. Should we do the same for cinema?
posted by Expecto Cilantro at 12:06 PM on December 27, 2022
I wonder how much of the 'uncanny' look is owing to the fact that 24 FPS has been the language of cinema for decades. How much is an objective assessment, and how much is tied to the conventions we're simply used to?
I found the switching noticeable and a bit jarring in general, though not the end of the world. It sort of seemed like there were certain points where the FPS felt really slow -- so much so that it was uncomfortably reminiscent of a computer dropping frames / struggling to keep up. THAT I found very annoying, and it made me wish that they had committed to high FPS throughout the whole film. IMO it might just be better to rip off the band-aid and get used to the new tech. As I recall, many viewers had the same reaction when first watching Game of Thrones on TVs with high refresh rates and eventually adapted. Should we do the same for cinema?
posted by Expecto Cilantro at 12:06 PM on December 27, 2022
Wow!! I could not have liked this movie more.
The HFR stuff was wild to me. I found that it worked really well for me in the last hour, mostly well for me in the middle hour, and mostly not at the beginning. Maybe it was something about it working more for the ocean than for the forests? Or maybe I just got used to it. It certainly felt jarring and awkward at times, and I certainly hope that it's not cinema's future.
I thought the script was fantastic, incidentally. Not because of what it said, but because of how much empty space it left for body language and immersion in space to fill. It was really amazing to me how many scenes would pack, like, eight different characters onto the screen, most of whom didn't have any lines but were constantly reacting to whomever was talking with shifts in their bodies and facial reactions. I started explicitly looking at the quietest characters in every scene, because man, their reactions were just a treasure trove.
It's a movie about being absorbed, not just in nature, but in community and in family, and I think it needed all of its runtime to give the audience an experience of that absorption. Without it, the whole thing would have fallen apart. And it's how the movie contrasts the military as villainous, too: they're all blustery idiots who scream "Oo-RAH!" at each other instead of genuinely communicating, and their version of "nature" is a bunch of cheap mechanical replicas of living things. Even the design of their base, exterior and interior both, reflects that. It's such good ambient storytelling.
The script isn't flashy, but that's because it knows its purpose is to stay out of the way.
Anyway I think this movie is better than the first one, because it's fundamentally a "dad's making us move to a new town and none of us want to go to the new high school" movie, and I think that that's just peachy.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:20 PM on December 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
The HFR stuff was wild to me. I found that it worked really well for me in the last hour, mostly well for me in the middle hour, and mostly not at the beginning. Maybe it was something about it working more for the ocean than for the forests? Or maybe I just got used to it. It certainly felt jarring and awkward at times, and I certainly hope that it's not cinema's future.
I thought the script was fantastic, incidentally. Not because of what it said, but because of how much empty space it left for body language and immersion in space to fill. It was really amazing to me how many scenes would pack, like, eight different characters onto the screen, most of whom didn't have any lines but were constantly reacting to whomever was talking with shifts in their bodies and facial reactions. I started explicitly looking at the quietest characters in every scene, because man, their reactions were just a treasure trove.
It's a movie about being absorbed, not just in nature, but in community and in family, and I think it needed all of its runtime to give the audience an experience of that absorption. Without it, the whole thing would have fallen apart. And it's how the movie contrasts the military as villainous, too: they're all blustery idiots who scream "Oo-RAH!" at each other instead of genuinely communicating, and their version of "nature" is a bunch of cheap mechanical replicas of living things. Even the design of their base, exterior and interior both, reflects that. It's such good ambient storytelling.
The script isn't flashy, but that's because it knows its purpose is to stay out of the way.
Anyway I think this movie is better than the first one, because it's fundamentally a "dad's making us move to a new town and none of us want to go to the new high school" movie, and I think that that's just peachy.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 4:20 PM on December 27, 2022 [5 favorites]
It's been so long since I've seen the first one that going in to this one I really didn't remember what happened outside of the major points (tall blue people/humans using tall blue people suits/tails connecting to other creatures). So this was almost like going in fresh. I liked it though. It certainly didn't need to be that long. The first half seemed to be a little slow. Repeating the same dialog in different parts of the movie felt unnecessary even if I get why they did it. But from when they start hunting the whales until the end was pretty much nonstop action and if Jimmy C knows how to do one thing it's how to do a good action sequence. I normally don't like modern action movies cause it's all CG now and I can't care about something drawn in a computer (which is why I liked the new Top Gun cause it was all actually being filmed) but I was on board for this one. I'll see the next ones if he can do that again but please Cameron cut it down a bit in the future. I'm still in the camp of 90-120 minutes is the perfect length for a movie. If he can keep it under 150 minutes that's an improvement. There will be sequels anyway if you feel something more needs to be said
posted by downtohisturtles at 3:49 AM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
posted by downtohisturtles at 3:49 AM on December 28, 2022 [2 favorites]
James Cameron knows what he's doing and can do that like no one else. Avatar: TWoW is probably as much of a ride as it is a movie but it's so fun and immersive in XD and 3D that I find it hard to criticize. The script is probably slightly better than the first one's but it's still just functional enough to give Cameron an excuse for all those amazing visuals and action scenes.
posted by octothorpe at 6:27 AM on December 31, 2022
posted by octothorpe at 6:27 AM on December 31, 2022
Avatar 2: Call Me Nav’Ishmael
posted by the duck by the oboe at 3:48 PM on January 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by the duck by the oboe at 3:48 PM on January 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
Felt like at some point between this and the first one that Silly gave up on that whole wonder at nature thing and instead decided to go with imposing the US model of the nuclear family as his thing. No pushback at all from his previously vociferous partner, who was appallingly underwritten throughout. Waste of Saldana.
Can't have been much fun for underpants bro to act in his underpants every day but I would be cool with them killing him off screen before the start of the next one.
Blue-Quarch and blue-Sully looked too alike.
Sully definitely loves younger son more than older son.
Where is while-Sully's body now. I forget what happened at the end of the first one.
How did Blue-Quarch know the older son was dead?
This needed more Aliens references.
posted by biffa at 3:52 AM on January 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Can't have been much fun for underpants bro to act in his underpants every day but I would be cool with them killing him off screen before the start of the next one.
Blue-Quarch and blue-Sully looked too alike.
Sully definitely loves younger son more than older son.
Where is while-Sully's body now. I forget what happened at the end of the first one.
How did Blue-Quarch know the older son was dead?
This needed more Aliens references.
posted by biffa at 3:52 AM on January 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
Daily Mash: I am Avatar 2, and I am your only entertainment option this weekend.
I did enjoy it though. Mediocre story, fantastic spectacle. But it's January, it's grey, it's miserable, the holidays are over, I'm OK with spending 3 hours pretending I'm in a world of sparkling beaches and clear blue water and towering forests instead.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:57 AM on January 7, 2023
I did enjoy it though. Mediocre story, fantastic spectacle. But it's January, it's grey, it's miserable, the holidays are over, I'm OK with spending 3 hours pretending I'm in a world of sparkling beaches and clear blue water and towering forests instead.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:57 AM on January 7, 2023
I just saw this on a giant imax screen and suggest that it's the only venue that these films make any sense to bother with. As a visual 'event' it is quite beautiful and intense. The middle is long but we are discovering a whole new world through the unjaded eyes of a variety of kids getting into and out of trouble, fun smaller side plots.
I might suggest the story is not so much mediocre as opratic. Not complex or intellectually satisfying on a SciFi level, it has primal elements of family, discovery and good vs earthmen. ;-)
The 3D tech did not give me a headache like the first Avatar, not sure if that's due to this bigger venue or general new technology. Agree with " that 3d should be forbidden to filmmakers who aren't Jim Cameron". I saw the dance documentary Pina in 3D on a slightly smaller and while it had a dimensional feel, well they just are not churning out 3D dance films due to massive demand.
The goggles I wore are different than I recall, "laser" what ever that means, and were not quite perfect, could have had a slightly wider view, but then Imax is not a wide format so not really necessary.
posted by sammyo at 4:03 PM on January 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
I might suggest the story is not so much mediocre as opratic. Not complex or intellectually satisfying on a SciFi level, it has primal elements of family, discovery and good vs earthmen. ;-)
The 3D tech did not give me a headache like the first Avatar, not sure if that's due to this bigger venue or general new technology. Agree with " that 3d should be forbidden to filmmakers who aren't Jim Cameron". I saw the dance documentary Pina in 3D on a slightly smaller and while it had a dimensional feel, well they just are not churning out 3D dance films due to massive demand.
The goggles I wore are different than I recall, "laser" what ever that means, and were not quite perfect, could have had a slightly wider view, but then Imax is not a wide format so not really necessary.
posted by sammyo at 4:03 PM on January 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Okay. So I was out of care about freaking Avatar after all these years (I remembered it as "pretty but the plot sucks") and I was perfectly fine passing up my nerd cred to not slog out to a theater to watch this. But a friend asked last night and I know she wouldn't have gone otherwise (and let's face it, I need to be dragged to a movie), so I went. I note it's going out of theaters after this week if anyone wants to last minute grab a showing.
It was actually better than I expected?! I wasn't bored, anyway. Was actually pretty interested in the kid drama and horrified as to what the humans were doing now to trash the planet and the "whales." Darned if Sigourney Weaver didn't make playing herself and her own teenage daughter of another species (more or less) work, go figure. Even weirder is that she's probably the Pandora equivalent of Jesus because um, since when did avatar-Grace have time to get pregnant before human-Grace died?! (I did laugh at "if the dad is Norm I WILL KILL MYSELF" teen drama.)
And much as I didn't give a crap about Sam Worthington first go-round since he seemed pretty bland, he makes being a military-guy-dad work here.
Quaritch crushing his own skull, EWWWWWWWW.
It's very retcon to suddenly have Quaritch have a child on the base that he knew about before his first death, isn't it. That said, Spider was more of a snarky Tarzan, I have no objections. I wonder when he gets his own Avatar.
Did it probably need to be three hours? Nah, but it does switch between pretty outdoor scenes (did look lovely in 3-D) and well, tons and tons of warfare destruction. I stayed interested for the three hours, go figure.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:48 PM on January 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
It was actually better than I expected?! I wasn't bored, anyway. Was actually pretty interested in the kid drama and horrified as to what the humans were doing now to trash the planet and the "whales." Darned if Sigourney Weaver didn't make playing herself and her own teenage daughter of another species (more or less) work, go figure. Even weirder is that she's probably the Pandora equivalent of Jesus because um, since when did avatar-Grace have time to get pregnant before human-Grace died?! (I did laugh at "if the dad is Norm I WILL KILL MYSELF" teen drama.)
And much as I didn't give a crap about Sam Worthington first go-round since he seemed pretty bland, he makes being a military-guy-dad work here.
Quaritch crushing his own skull, EWWWWWWWW.
It's very retcon to suddenly have Quaritch have a child on the base that he knew about before his first death, isn't it. That said, Spider was more of a snarky Tarzan, I have no objections. I wonder when he gets his own Avatar.
Did it probably need to be three hours? Nah, but it does switch between pretty outdoor scenes (did look lovely in 3-D) and well, tons and tons of warfare destruction. I stayed interested for the three hours, go figure.
posted by jenfullmoon at 8:48 PM on January 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh heeeeeeeey, I have a technical question. It has been a billion years since I saw the movie, but I kind of recall that in Avatar, the Pandoran species couldn't breathe our air?, but humans could definitely NOT breathe Pandoran air, so humans + Na'vi weren't mingling about together openly on the planet in bare skins much.
So....have they somehow come up with a miracle cure that Spider or any other humans can wander around in an easy mask (even underwater) to solve that problem? Is it okay for Na'vi to wander around in human airspace and be just fine? Is that a recombinant thing?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:17 AM on January 18, 2023
So....have they somehow come up with a miracle cure that Spider or any other humans can wander around in an easy mask (even underwater) to solve that problem? Is it okay for Na'vi to wander around in human airspace and be just fine? Is that a recombinant thing?
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:17 AM on January 18, 2023
I just saw this on a giant imax screen and suggest that it's the only venue that these films make any sense to bother with.
100% agree. Actually, I'm pretty much 100% on board with sammyo's entire review. My kid asked (repeatedly) to see this and I finally relented. It's fun, but I cannot imagine it holding up on home video.
It's a fun movie, greatly enhanced if you see it in Cameron's chosen format, as he is--as noted several times above--really the only filmmaker who has ever managed a truly compelling case for how to use IMAX 3-D.
I will say this for the plot though...
In the first one, Jake Sully--who felt alienated by those around him because of his physical differences--is thrust into a world he does not understand and must overcome skepticism from the tribe and learn their ways to earn their trust... meanwhile, the military industrial complex is there, looking for this hard to find stuff (unobtainium) and they don't care if they have to mess up some N'avi to get it... oh, and there's this Colonel that Stephen Lang plays and the end of the movie is basically him and Jake having this big battle...
Well, in the second one, Jake Sully's son--who feels alienated by those around him because of his physical differences--is thrust into a world he does not understand and must overcome skepticism from the tribe and learn their ways to earn their trust... meanwhile, the military industrial complex is there, looking for this hard to find stuff (Tulkan brain fluid) and they don't care if they have to mess up some N'avi to get it... oh, and there's this Colonel that Stephen Lang plays and the end of the movie is basically him and Jake having this big battle...
I mean, plot-wise, it's basically James Cameron doing the same thing again, but with water scenes also now, because he loves those.
He remains preternaturally gifted at putting together a compelling but very elemental plot that lets him utilize the tech he wants to use and get from setting/sequence to setting/sequence fluidly so he can keep showing you cool shit. And really, if you're giving him credit for that, you may as well notice he usually has some kind of anti-military-industrial complex thematic stuff going on and that isn't so bad either.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:13 PM on January 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
100% agree. Actually, I'm pretty much 100% on board with sammyo's entire review. My kid asked (repeatedly) to see this and I finally relented. It's fun, but I cannot imagine it holding up on home video.
It's a fun movie, greatly enhanced if you see it in Cameron's chosen format, as he is--as noted several times above--really the only filmmaker who has ever managed a truly compelling case for how to use IMAX 3-D.
I will say this for the plot though...
In the first one, Jake Sully--who felt alienated by those around him because of his physical differences--is thrust into a world he does not understand and must overcome skepticism from the tribe and learn their ways to earn their trust... meanwhile, the military industrial complex is there, looking for this hard to find stuff (unobtainium) and they don't care if they have to mess up some N'avi to get it... oh, and there's this Colonel that Stephen Lang plays and the end of the movie is basically him and Jake having this big battle...
Well, in the second one, Jake Sully's son--who feels alienated by those around him because of his physical differences--is thrust into a world he does not understand and must overcome skepticism from the tribe and learn their ways to earn their trust... meanwhile, the military industrial complex is there, looking for this hard to find stuff (Tulkan brain fluid) and they don't care if they have to mess up some N'avi to get it... oh, and there's this Colonel that Stephen Lang plays and the end of the movie is basically him and Jake having this big battle...
I mean, plot-wise, it's basically James Cameron doing the same thing again, but with water scenes also now, because he loves those.
He remains preternaturally gifted at putting together a compelling but very elemental plot that lets him utilize the tech he wants to use and get from setting/sequence to setting/sequence fluidly so he can keep showing you cool shit. And really, if you're giving him credit for that, you may as well notice he usually has some kind of anti-military-industrial complex thematic stuff going on and that isn't so bad either.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:13 PM on January 18, 2023 [3 favorites]
I just knew they were going to do a Moby Dick thing with this one: Avatar 3 is bringing back Payakan and Mick Scoresby
posted by Apocryphon at 1:46 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 1:46 PM on January 18, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, plot-wise, it's basically James Cameron doing the same thing again, but with water scenes also now, because he loves those.
The difference between this sequel and the first one (from what I can recall of the original film) is that the storytelling has gotten a lot better. Cameron sticks you into the action, plot-wise not just action scenes, rather than in the exposition. After a fairly quick setup and recap, you jump head-first into Sully's anti-colonial insurgency and get the reinsertion of Quaritch. He wastes no time in having both reunite in the fight. The film does slow down for introducing the islands and the islander culture, but it also showcases the lavish mythical ecosystem that the movie has created. So it feels a lot more engaging than the first one, which as I remember, had the cliches far more prominent, almost glaring.
Also I really commend Cameron's action direction. The final action sequence was more engaging than any MCU movie's that I can think of. It has a lot of twists and turns and reversals ("I can't believe I got captured again!") and the heroes are never safe, which keeps the tension up. A lot is happening but never did the film disappear into a CGI mess headache, as I often feel in other action movies towards the end. It sort of reminded me of Max Max: Fury Road in that respect. There was a sense of clarity, and a lack of drudgery, to the action climax. I have to wonder if that's because Cameron's old school sensibilities. (Similarly, for all of its flaws, Ready Player One was very much improved by Spielberg's direction, elevating it above the average modern popcorn blockbusters.)
posted by Apocryphon at 1:55 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
The difference between this sequel and the first one (from what I can recall of the original film) is that the storytelling has gotten a lot better. Cameron sticks you into the action, plot-wise not just action scenes, rather than in the exposition. After a fairly quick setup and recap, you jump head-first into Sully's anti-colonial insurgency and get the reinsertion of Quaritch. He wastes no time in having both reunite in the fight. The film does slow down for introducing the islands and the islander culture, but it also showcases the lavish mythical ecosystem that the movie has created. So it feels a lot more engaging than the first one, which as I remember, had the cliches far more prominent, almost glaring.
Also I really commend Cameron's action direction. The final action sequence was more engaging than any MCU movie's that I can think of. It has a lot of twists and turns and reversals ("I can't believe I got captured again!") and the heroes are never safe, which keeps the tension up. A lot is happening but never did the film disappear into a CGI mess headache, as I often feel in other action movies towards the end. It sort of reminded me of Max Max: Fury Road in that respect. There was a sense of clarity, and a lack of drudgery, to the action climax. I have to wonder if that's because Cameron's old school sensibilities. (Similarly, for all of its flaws, Ready Player One was very much improved by Spielberg's direction, elevating it above the average modern popcorn blockbusters.)
posted by Apocryphon at 1:55 PM on January 18, 2023 [2 favorites]
Interestingly enough, even the film's box office performance hearkens to an earlier era- Avatar: The Way Of Water Proves The Box Office Is Broken
Avatar: The Way of Water is a huge box office success despite a lower opening weekend. While big modern blockbusters have created expectations of massive opening weekends being the best or only way to achieve a high level of box office success, big hits with lower opening weekends like Avatar, Titanic, Avatar: The Way of Water, and Top Gun Maverick reveal a healthier trend more in-line with historic box office behemoths like Jurassic Park and E.T. the Extra-Terrestrial....
Measuring a movie's total domestic performance as a factor of its opening weekend is one of the best ways to establish a proportional measurement to eliminate inflation-driven differences across the decades. The product of a movie's opening weekend box office and its "multiplier" equals its total domestic run, so a bigger multiplier means better legs, indicating better word of mouth and repeat business, and is a good sign of overall box office health. Titanic's 23.02 multiplier is the best in the current top 10, while Avatar's 10.19 is the second highest; however, the other eight movies not directed by James Cameron average out to 2.91, and its been trending downward for decades.
The average multiplier for every #1 movie in the 2010s was 3.13, the average #1 movie of the 2000s was 4.73, the average #1 movie of the 1990s was 9.67, and the average #1 movie of the 1980s was 20.85. Since this only accounts for the top movie of each year it may not be fully representative, but the downward box office trend is still clear. So, not only do modern blockbusters not necessarily even earn more at the box office, but the way they do it is far less healthy. It's the economic equivalent of a diet primarily consisting of sugar, creating short-term spikes in energy, but perpetuating a long-term decline in health.
It remains to be seen how much Avatar: The Way of Water will earn, but both Avatar and Titanic's massive box office hauls are secure in an inflation-adjusted top 10 list, and it's notable that all three movies have the lowest opening weekends of any of the current unadjusted top 10 and the three highest multipliers out of the unadjusted top 10. This means their long-haul totals come from massive sustained word-of-mouth and repeat viewings. This may or may not indicate anything about the subjective quality or entertainment value of these movies, but it does mean their performance is far more stable and healthy than other top 10 moviesposted by Apocryphon at 2:02 PM on January 18, 2023
Fortunately, James Cameron's movies aren't the only movies following these more healthy box office patterns. Top Gun: Maverick is another recent example of a movie with a relatively low opening weekend and strong long-term legs. In fact, Top Gun: Maverick has a solid chance of out-grossing Avatar: The Way of Water domestically, meaning its failure to crack the top 10 list is due to its international performance, which only accounted for 48 percent of its box office (compared to the 70 percent for all three Cameron movies in the top 10), largely due to it not getting released in China.
Unfortunately the visuals didn't steal my breath away this time - spoiled by nonstop Marvel perhaps? The movie was beautiful but not enough to distract me from the absolute dull plot I had to sit through for 3 hours, especially the middle where NOTHING HAPPENS. It's not a film so much as a screensaver to me. I was prepared to turn off my brain and just enjoy the lovely world building, but I ended up feeling insulted by the simplicity of its themes (again) and the shallowness of its characters. At least we had a gift card to use on tickets.
posted by It Was Capitalism All Along at 10:22 PM on January 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by It Was Capitalism All Along at 10:22 PM on January 21, 2023 [1 favorite]
My daughter wanted to go for her birthday, and we had an old gift certificate, so we went on Saturday morning. I hadn't actually seen all of the first movie before, and my expectations were "schmaltz + CGI."
WELL. That was a hell of a show: long and exciting. My Apple watch warned me three times to stand up and walk around, and twice that my heart rate was unusually high.
The story struck me as full of obvious beats and tired cliches: "Moby-Dick meets Brady Bunch in Hawaii plus JAWS [I and/or II]." Seeing that Marine's head pop out of the water while backlit by flames was a throw-back to "Apocalypse Now," right? The arm getting cut off by the cable was very "JAWS III in Super-3-D" -- I cackled out loud -- and the entire arc of "new kids in town/brother defends sister/local boys dare brother into risky behavior" might be as old as Mark Twain?
I also thought that some of the characters and the acting were good, like the way that the voice & animation of down-aged Sigourney Weaver as teen-age Kiri was so expressive and believable as a moody teen. But Lang's Marine colonel was just campy, which was jarring next to Edie Falco's cashing-a-check general.
But damn was that pretty to watch in 3D! I loved the light touch of seeing embers float off the screen or a few fairy shrimp come floating out toward my face. The whale breaching at the end of the credits was totally worth waiting for, and the overall spectacle was fantastic.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:14 AM on January 23, 2023
WELL. That was a hell of a show: long and exciting. My Apple watch warned me three times to stand up and walk around, and twice that my heart rate was unusually high.
The story struck me as full of obvious beats and tired cliches: "Moby-Dick meets Brady Bunch in Hawaii plus JAWS [I and/or II]." Seeing that Marine's head pop out of the water while backlit by flames was a throw-back to "Apocalypse Now," right? The arm getting cut off by the cable was very "JAWS III in Super-3-D" -- I cackled out loud -- and the entire arc of "new kids in town/brother defends sister/local boys dare brother into risky behavior" might be as old as Mark Twain?
I also thought that some of the characters and the acting were good, like the way that the voice & animation of down-aged Sigourney Weaver as teen-age Kiri was so expressive and believable as a moody teen. But Lang's Marine colonel was just campy, which was jarring next to Edie Falco's cashing-a-check general.
But damn was that pretty to watch in 3D! I loved the light touch of seeing embers float off the screen or a few fairy shrimp come floating out toward my face. The whale breaching at the end of the credits was totally worth waiting for, and the overall spectacle was fantastic.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:14 AM on January 23, 2023
Where is while-Sully's body now. I forget what happened at the end of the first one.
Yes, this?!?!
Did the two human scientists airlift out the lab trailer that hold's Sully's tank and hide it in the forest before the second fleet arrived, or something? (That would explain why they still have a helicopter when they come to try to heal Kiri.)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:16 AM on January 23, 2023
Yes, this?!?!
Did the two human scientists airlift out the lab trailer that hold's Sully's tank and hide it in the forest before the second fleet arrived, or something? (That would explain why they still have a helicopter when they come to try to heal Kiri.)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:16 AM on January 23, 2023
ssmith: ...I really hope the next movie lets the Smurfs go on offense for a change.
Having started the franchise in the forest, and then moved to the sea for the sequel, I figured the third movie will pivot to the horse people of the plains. I am expecting some awesome Green Riders of Rohan stuff here, Cameron, so don't disappoint me!
I also figure that the third movie will focus on how Kiri's communion with the planet will empower her as a Vengeful Lorax who blows every human visitor off the planet in a convulsion of rage that also kills her. (Cue crying Jake Sully Na'vi.)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:24 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Having started the franchise in the forest, and then moved to the sea for the sequel, I figured the third movie will pivot to the horse people of the plains. I am expecting some awesome Green Riders of Rohan stuff here, Cameron, so don't disappoint me!
I also figure that the third movie will focus on how Kiri's communion with the planet will empower her as a Vengeful Lorax who blows every human visitor off the planet in a convulsion of rage that also kills her. (Cue crying Jake Sully Na'vi.)
posted by wenestvedt at 6:24 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
biffa: Blue-Quarch and blue-Sully looked too alike.
Forget that, my problem was that blue-Sully looked waaaay too much like a woaded-up Mel Gibson in "Braveheart": also leading a rebellion of natives against invaders, also blue, also outgunned, also doomed-yet-romantic. Sounded like him, too.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:24 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Forget that, my problem was that blue-Sully looked waaaay too much like a woaded-up Mel Gibson in "Braveheart": also leading a rebellion of natives against invaders, also blue, also outgunned, also doomed-yet-romantic. Sounded like him, too.
posted by wenestvedt at 6:24 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
The difference between this sequel and the first one (from what I can recall of the original film) is that the storytelling has gotten a lot better. Cameron sticks you into the action, plot-wise not just action scenes, rather than in the exposition.
I'm gonna disagree a bit there.
The first time was deliberately paced because it very carefully sold us on the world, the 3-D, the weird blue aliens, all of it. This time, we were dropped right in, and while that is normally my preference, story-wise, in this case, it meant I needed a half hour or so to stop being irritated and buy in to the visuals.
I am an old though, so this may not be a universal reaction.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:18 AM on January 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm gonna disagree a bit there.
The first time was deliberately paced because it very carefully sold us on the world, the 3-D, the weird blue aliens, all of it. This time, we were dropped right in, and while that is normally my preference, story-wise, in this case, it meant I needed a half hour or so to stop being irritated and buy in to the visuals.
I am an old though, so this may not be a universal reaction.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:18 AM on January 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
i went and checked wikipedia and apparently "Jake is permanently transferred into his avatar with the aid of the Tree of Souls." at the end of the first one. I don't know what that means for his body since its not detailed enough. I'm not sure I'm motivated enough to crack open the DVD when I get home.
posted by biffa at 9:18 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 9:18 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Edie Falco Filmed Her ‘Avatar 2’ Role 4 Years Ago and Thought Movie Already Came Out and Flopped
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:18 AM on January 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:18 AM on January 23, 2023 [3 favorites]
Since Cameron is planning like four more of these films, I'm hoping a couple of sequels down the line they'll go to the desert. Just steal from more works of classic sci-fi, you know?
posted by Apocryphon at 9:44 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 9:44 AM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Bless that Edie Falco. Watching her drink coffee in the exoskeleton was really funny to me.
posted by wenestvedt at 10:24 AM on January 23, 2023
posted by wenestvedt at 10:24 AM on January 23, 2023
Since Cameron is planning like four more of these films, I'm hoping a couple of sequels down the line they'll go to the desert.
Currently 3 more in the pipeline, so maybe ice, desert and then one combining everything?
posted by biffa at 12:29 PM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
Currently 3 more in the pipeline, so maybe ice, desert and then one combining everything?
posted by biffa at 12:29 PM on January 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
biffa: Currently 3 more in the pipeline, so maybe ice, desert and then one combining everything?
And just think of the cross-over potential: "Disney on Ice Presents: Avatar on Ice"!
posted by wenestvedt at 1:19 PM on January 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
And just think of the cross-over potential: "Disney on Ice Presents: Avatar on Ice"!
posted by wenestvedt at 1:19 PM on January 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
i went and checked wikipedia and apparently "Jake is permanently transferred into his avatar with the aid of the Tree of Souls." at the end of the first one. I don't know what that means for his body since its not detailed enough
The avatar is his body now. His old body presumably died.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:40 PM on January 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
The avatar is his body now. His old body presumably died.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 2:40 PM on January 23, 2023 [2 favorites]
Sooooo...... If they can keep moving a person from body to body, why do they need the whale brain juice to be immortal? Why not just run daily backups and crank out fresh clones, as they did with the colonel?
The whole premise of the stupid franchise just went poof. JFC, Cameron, are you completely surrounded by yes-men??
posted by wenestvedt at 6:07 AM on January 24, 2023
The whole premise of the stupid franchise just went poof. JFC, Cameron, are you completely surrounded by yes-men??
posted by wenestvedt at 6:07 AM on January 24, 2023
According to the Avatar Wiki, it cost 5 billion dollars to make an avatar body. No info given on how much it is to make a recombinant. But that explains why you'd use a twin if you could, and why they aren't just making bodies for everyone (I'm sure Spider would like one).
(Note: the wiki also answered my question about the masks and air for humans.) On a related note, I saw this depressing article about how we can't ever survive on a planet we didn't evolve into living on and thought of this movie.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:26 AM on January 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
(Note: the wiki also answered my question about the masks and air for humans.) On a related note, I saw this depressing article about how we can't ever survive on a planet we didn't evolve into living on and thought of this movie.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:26 AM on January 24, 2023 [4 favorites]
Why not just run daily backups and crank out fresh clones, as they did with the colonel?
Those aren't you. Whatever you want to think about how this would "really" operate, they're very clear that in this universe if you dump your recording into a clone then your new twin who remembers you wakes up, not you. If you want *you* to actually not die, you need brain juice. (HOUSE: Patient needs mouse bites to live!)
Eywa can apparently do it, actually move you into a new body instead of killing you and having your twin wake up, because semimystical whatever about souls or something.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:29 PM on January 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
Those aren't you. Whatever you want to think about how this would "really" operate, they're very clear that in this universe if you dump your recording into a clone then your new twin who remembers you wakes up, not you. If you want *you* to actually not die, you need brain juice. (HOUSE: Patient needs mouse bites to live!)
Eywa can apparently do it, actually move you into a new body instead of killing you and having your twin wake up, because semimystical whatever about souls or something.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 4:29 PM on January 24, 2023 [3 favorites]
I bet the space-portable bulldozers cost a lot more than $5B to move across the universe each, but whatever.
"Forget it Jake, it'sChinatown scifi economics."
posted by wenestvedt at 9:01 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
"Forget it Jake, it's
posted by wenestvedt at 9:01 AM on January 25, 2023 [2 favorites]
I saw this depressing article about how we can't ever survive on a planet we didn't evolve into living on and thought of this movie.
This is a total derail, but that's sort of the premise of Aurora by Kim Stanley Robinson. Or I suppose that space is harder than we want to admit to ourselves and that Earth is the only place where we know how to live, long term. It's a really good book, I enjoyed it, but it is also pretty depressing.
posted by selenized at 9:01 AM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
This is a total derail, but that's sort of the premise of Aurora by Kim Stanley Robinson. Or I suppose that space is harder than we want to admit to ourselves and that Earth is the only place where we know how to live, long term. It's a really good book, I enjoyed it, but it is also pretty depressing.
posted by selenized at 9:01 AM on January 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
That was fun. It seemed like one of the big new tricks was incorporating a lot more real footage with the CGI than I remember from the first one, and it mostly worked? Generally? Although these were a few scenes of the Sully / General fight at the end that felt particularly like maybe someone wasn't paying enough attention and some shots got a little rubber-mask-y.
posted by Kyol at 7:06 PM on May 5, 2023
posted by Kyol at 7:06 PM on May 5, 2023
That said, the mocap and facecap were _oh my god_ so much better than I'm used to in AAA games. I don't know if it's just that the Na'vi are just that far removed from humanity that it reads better or what, but man that was some glorious animation work.
posted by Kyol at 7:09 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Kyol at 7:09 PM on May 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Any why was Kiri looking at that hole in the sand under the water!?
What’s in the hole!!??
posted by LEGO Damashii at 12:22 PM on December 19, 2022 [4 favorites +] [!]
it was a burrow. likely a clam or sand flea or other critter down there was making air bubbles, disturbing the sand.
posted by rebent at 6:57 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
What’s in the hole!!??
posted by LEGO Damashii at 12:22 PM on December 19, 2022 [4 favorites +] [!]
it was a burrow. likely a clam or sand flea or other critter down there was making air bubbles, disturbing the sand.
posted by rebent at 6:57 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
A different thread on the Blue reminded me of this movie and I came to look at what people in this community thought of Avatar. Looks like y'all loved it for most part?? I myself found the story unbearably boring and patriarchal and filled with the same-old noble-savage nonsense as the first movie. Just a data point, not trying to rain on anyone's parade! I do agree the visuals were stunning.
posted by MiraK at 8:27 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by MiraK at 8:27 AM on November 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
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I do hope it makes a ton of money as I'm curious what happens next. I'm still hoping that at some point Eywa/Pandora decides to go star voyaging itself.
I saw elsewhere someone say that 3d should be forbidden to filmmakers who aren't Jim Cameron, and kinda agree.
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 12:37 PM on December 18, 2022 [3 favorites]