Secret Invasion: Beloved
July 12, 2023 1:36 PM - Season 1, Episode 4 - Subscribe
Fury must make some hard sacrifices.
So, is the real Rhodes dead or imprisoned? Any guesses?
posted by Servo5678 at 2:58 PM on July 12, 2023
posted by Servo5678 at 2:58 PM on July 12, 2023
Standing unconscious in a warehouse someplace with zappy electricity tickling his temples.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:17 PM on July 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by ricochet biscuit at 3:17 PM on July 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
This episode was pretty good, based solely on the scenes between Giah and Talos, Fury and Talos, Fury and SkruRhodey, and Fury and Priscillia.
Everything else was pretty lackluster. The actor playing Gravik is good, but the writing doesn't match his talents. The schemes of the Skrulls to incite war are widely amateurish and it makes me wonder what's going on in the writer's room. Or whether much of anything is happening in their, because the plot is stunningly dull and makes little sense.
Also, Giah is the worst daughter ever. She use the tech to become a SuperSkrull, but doesn't tell dad about the machine? I thought the machine wasn't even ready yet, but here we are.
This is all just so weird.
At this point, I want over the top theatrics, like SkruRhodey wearing a green suit, while hamming it up in scenes with Fury. That wouldn't make sense either, but at least it would be entertaining.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:40 PM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Everything else was pretty lackluster. The actor playing Gravik is good, but the writing doesn't match his talents. The schemes of the Skrulls to incite war are widely amateurish and it makes me wonder what's going on in the writer's room. Or whether much of anything is happening in their, because the plot is stunningly dull and makes little sense.
Also, Giah is the worst daughter ever. She use the tech to become a SuperSkrull, but doesn't tell dad about the machine? I thought the machine wasn't even ready yet, but here we are.
This is all just so weird.
At this point, I want over the top theatrics, like SkruRhodey wearing a green suit, while hamming it up in scenes with Fury. That wouldn't make sense either, but at least it would be entertaining.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:40 PM on July 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
Also, Maria Hill isn't dead, I just know, uh hu, absolute sure she'll be back, oh yes!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:47 PM on July 12, 2023
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:47 PM on July 12, 2023
I find the Super Skrull powers displayed thus far to be a little dull. The Skrulls are shapeshifters. If you can turn into a cow, how hard could it be to shapeshift around a knife? No need for Extremis. And sprouting a long arm? Easy-peasy. Not exactly in a league with the Fantastic Four.
posted by SPrintF at 5:59 PM on July 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by SPrintF at 5:59 PM on July 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
They really haven’t sold this invasion/conspiracy at all.
The fighters involved in this incident flew over the office where I worked. it apparently took them well under five minutes to arrive after the scramble was called in Portland - an entire state away.
There are satellites, surveillance networks, and literally thousands of people working to protect POTUS 24/7. Shapeshifters or not, you can’t get that many assets looking in the wrong direction so a few SUVs full of goons can have a gunfight.
When i heard they were doing this show, I assumed it would be a mini-Avengers event ala Falcon & Winter Soldier. Destabilizing a small group of people with that much power would be easier to sell the audience on while still credibly presenting a global threat.
This show feels like Marvel doing Tom Clancy cosplay several decades too late.
posted by FallibleHuman at 7:56 PM on July 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
The fighters involved in this incident flew over the office where I worked. it apparently took them well under five minutes to arrive after the scramble was called in Portland - an entire state away.
There are satellites, surveillance networks, and literally thousands of people working to protect POTUS 24/7. Shapeshifters or not, you can’t get that many assets looking in the wrong direction so a few SUVs full of goons can have a gunfight.
When i heard they were doing this show, I assumed it would be a mini-Avengers event ala Falcon & Winter Soldier. Destabilizing a small group of people with that much power would be easier to sell the audience on while still credibly presenting a global threat.
This show feels like Marvel doing Tom Clancy cosplay several decades too late.
posted by FallibleHuman at 7:56 PM on July 12, 2023 [7 favorites]
Dermot Mulroney cannot be president. At most he’s vice president.
posted by chrchr at 8:45 PM on July 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by chrchr at 8:45 PM on July 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
They aren't shapeshifters per se, they are more impersonators. They can turn into a cow, not Super Cow. They get the appearance, not the powers.
posted by vrakatar at 8:46 PM on July 12, 2023
posted by vrakatar at 8:46 PM on July 12, 2023
Yeah I agree that the plotting on this episode was straight up weird.
As Ellie said, even if G'iah doesn't think her dad has got what it takes, failing to tell him that Gravik has super powers is a pretty big oversight, and it's really not clear why she wouldn't.
And the plan made no sense here. Even if we grant that an ambush as done here would be possible, outside of the initial strike, directly attacking the convoy is obviously dumb. We already know, textually, that if a skrull dies they revert back into their natural form. And skrulls definitely got shot in the fight, so as soon as it was over they would realise it wasn't the Russians! Unless all the skrulls have these super powers, but I don't think thats the case (although they haven't actually given plot reasons that each skrull could not get super powers).
posted by Cannon Fodder at 11:21 PM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
As Ellie said, even if G'iah doesn't think her dad has got what it takes, failing to tell him that Gravik has super powers is a pretty big oversight, and it's really not clear why she wouldn't.
And the plan made no sense here. Even if we grant that an ambush as done here would be possible, outside of the initial strike, directly attacking the convoy is obviously dumb. We already know, textually, that if a skrull dies they revert back into their natural form. And skrulls definitely got shot in the fight, so as soon as it was over they would realise it wasn't the Russians! Unless all the skrulls have these super powers, but I don't think thats the case (although they haven't actually given plot reasons that each skrull could not get super powers).
posted by Cannon Fodder at 11:21 PM on July 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
So heres a thing that is throwing me off about this show. Nobody really reacts to anything. A lot of big events have happened, and Fury has mainly kept the same demeanour. As the audience, Rhodes being a skrull is a big deal! Where if the real Rhodes? How long has he been replaced for? Can we save him? But other than tracking him, Fury doesn't seem particularly interested in answering any of these questions.
Why doesn't Fury tell anyone about this? Honestly the argument that the skrulls might copy a super hero is a bit silly; in the case of Captain Marvel, she is already known by the skrulls, but the difference between her and a copy is she can fly and blast people with energy. I feel like the protection of the president might have been a tad easier with Captain Marvel there.
For that matter, given there is overwhelming evidence of Skrulls in important positions, why doesn't Fury tell anyone? Well, anyone other than the person he already knows is a Skrull! I guess maybe Talos didn't want him to, but given we have had TWO episodes in which the skrulls have deliberately tried to create a nuclear exchange, I rather think those ideas don't matter.
I think secret invasion actually needed to be a movie, or at least a scaled up TV show. The MCU could get away with being gritty and grounded before an alien invaded and wiped out half of the population. The idea that only spies should be involved in a crisis which is much bigger than that seems patently absurd. And a movie (or a higher budget tv show) would have allowed us to have more fun with key characters being replaced by skrulls, rather than literally the only other character who has appeared before in the MCU being a skrull!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 7:06 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Why doesn't Fury tell anyone about this? Honestly the argument that the skrulls might copy a super hero is a bit silly; in the case of Captain Marvel, she is already known by the skrulls, but the difference between her and a copy is she can fly and blast people with energy. I feel like the protection of the president might have been a tad easier with Captain Marvel there.
For that matter, given there is overwhelming evidence of Skrulls in important positions, why doesn't Fury tell anyone? Well, anyone other than the person he already knows is a Skrull! I guess maybe Talos didn't want him to, but given we have had TWO episodes in which the skrulls have deliberately tried to create a nuclear exchange, I rather think those ideas don't matter.
I think secret invasion actually needed to be a movie, or at least a scaled up TV show. The MCU could get away with being gritty and grounded before an alien invaded and wiped out half of the population. The idea that only spies should be involved in a crisis which is much bigger than that seems patently absurd. And a movie (or a higher budget tv show) would have allowed us to have more fun with key characters being replaced by skrulls, rather than literally the only other character who has appeared before in the MCU being a skrull!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 7:06 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unless all the skrulls have these super powers, but I don't think thats the case (although they haven't actually given plot reasons that each skrull could not get super powers).
Since they were all part of Gravik's plot to assassinate(?) the President I think it's more likely that they all did have the same super powers as him to make a super army for him.
posted by ellieBOA at 7:47 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Since they were all part of Gravik's plot to assassinate(?) the President I think it's more likely that they all did have the same super powers as him to make a super army for him.
posted by ellieBOA at 7:47 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
It doesn’t make sense to bring Super Skrulls into this if Gravik wants it to appear like Russians.
Currently I’m not sure why SS are even needed in this series or why they’re copying powers of non-Avengers.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:01 AM on July 13, 2023
Currently I’m not sure why SS are even needed in this series or why they’re copying powers of non-Avengers.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:01 AM on July 13, 2023
Where is the real Rhodes?
I think the idea is that this is the real Rhodes. He's always been a Skrull plant, which makes sense, getting an asset close to billionaire genius Tony Stark even before Stark created the Iron Man.
posted by SPrintF at 8:09 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think the idea is that this is the real Rhodes. He's always been a Skrull plant, which makes sense, getting an asset close to billionaire genius Tony Stark even before Stark created the Iron Man.
posted by SPrintF at 8:09 AM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
As Ellie said, even if G'iah doesn't think her dad has got what it takes, failing to tell him that Gravik has super powers is a pretty big oversight, and it's really not clear why she wouldn't.
Do we know she didn't tell him ?
posted by Pendragon at 10:25 AM on July 13, 2023
Do we know she didn't tell him ?
posted by Pendragon at 10:25 AM on July 13, 2023
If Rhodey has been a skrull from the start, the upcoming Armor Wars show is gonna be a wild ride.
“Welcome back, Jim! Since you left, half the world died, then came back. Oh, and you have a flying armor suit built by a dude you never met before he died. AND AND there are a bunch of people using illicit copies of that suit; you gotta go clean them up.”
…actually, i can totally see MCU executives trying to make that ludicrocity work.
posted by FallibleHuman at 10:33 AM on July 13, 2023
“Welcome back, Jim! Since you left, half the world died, then came back. Oh, and you have a flying armor suit built by a dude you never met before he died. AND AND there are a bunch of people using illicit copies of that suit; you gotta go clean them up.”
…actually, i can totally see MCU executives trying to make that ludicrocity work.
posted by FallibleHuman at 10:33 AM on July 13, 2023
Huh I wonder if they are gonna use the Blip as the moment Gravik launched the infiltration.
There would have been plenty of societal chaos going on to use as cover for Skrull agents to “return” with a relatively plausible cover for any pre-blip ‘memory gaps’.
posted by FallibleHuman at 10:36 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
There would have been plenty of societal chaos going on to use as cover for Skrull agents to “return” with a relatively plausible cover for any pre-blip ‘memory gaps’.
posted by FallibleHuman at 10:36 AM on July 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the idea is that this is the real Rhodes. He's always been a Skrull plant, which makes sense, getting an asset close to billionaire genius Tony Stark even before Stark created the Iron Man.
It also provides a Holmesian explanation for how Rhodey was a completely different guy in the first movie (link goes to Doylist explanation).
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:53 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
It also provides a Holmesian explanation for how Rhodey was a completely different guy in the first movie (link goes to Doylist explanation).
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:53 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it would be dramatically bad to have the skrull switch for rhodey happen at the same time as the actor switch, in 2009.
I also think it would be funny as fuck.
posted by fomhar at 7:52 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I also think it would be funny as fuck.
posted by fomhar at 7:52 PM on July 13, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think it would be dramatically bad to have the skrull switch for rhodey happen at the same time as the actor switch, in 2009.
It's the only thing that would explain what happened in real life, which was Terrence Howard believing that the only person that mattered in Iron Man was himself, and that the second movie couldn't possibly be made without his involvement, so Marvel would have to give-in to his demands because how can the only star that mattered not appear in his own masterpiece??
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:17 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's the only thing that would explain what happened in real life, which was Terrence Howard believing that the only person that mattered in Iron Man was himself, and that the second movie couldn't possibly be made without his involvement, so Marvel would have to give-in to his demands because how can the only star that mattered not appear in his own masterpiece??
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 10:17 PM on July 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I keep hoping each episode will either be bad enough to abandon the series, or good enough to want to continue, but it keeps plugging along a path of mediocrity. A decent battle scene and some good performances, but nothing really surprising. I think most of us called G'iah not being dead.
You know sometimes you walk into a room and the tap's been left running, pouring out clean potable water into the drain on full blast, and you think "what a waste"? That's kind of how I feel about Samuel L. Jackson's charisma.
Also the thing about a magic machine giving out Groot powers bugs me unreasonably. Groot doesn't have superpowers exactly, he's an alien plant whose vegetable body works a certain way. How do you have a machine that makes a reptile body suddenly work like an alien plant.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:07 AM on July 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
You know sometimes you walk into a room and the tap's been left running, pouring out clean potable water into the drain on full blast, and you think "what a waste"? That's kind of how I feel about Samuel L. Jackson's charisma.
Also the thing about a magic machine giving out Groot powers bugs me unreasonably. Groot doesn't have superpowers exactly, he's an alien plant whose vegetable body works a certain way. How do you have a machine that makes a reptile body suddenly work like an alien plant.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 1:07 AM on July 14, 2023 [6 favorites]
As a lifelong comics reader, I often find adaptions into other media assume that they can dispense with logic altogether. You'd never get away with stuff like the Groot machine in the comics themselves, where some sort of internal consistency is still expected to apply. TV and movie folk seem to think a project's comic book origins means its world can operate with no rules at all, and that just ain't so.
I'm reminded of something Spike Milligan once said about writing comedy sketches. The gist was that, if everyone in your sketch right from the start is shown wearing a dustbin, the audience will happily accept that. It's only when you allow a character without a dustbin to intrude that they start demanding explanations.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:33 AM on July 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm reminded of something Spike Milligan once said about writing comedy sketches. The gist was that, if everyone in your sketch right from the start is shown wearing a dustbin, the audience will happily accept that. It's only when you allow a character without a dustbin to intrude that they start demanding explanations.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:33 AM on July 14, 2023 [4 favorites]
It dawned on me this morning that human Rhodes (and maybe Hill?) are being kept in storage by the Skrulls to mine their memories. We've seen this "memory reserve" a few times in the series. So maybe at the end, everybody's OK?
posted by SPrintF at 12:31 PM on July 14, 2023
posted by SPrintF at 12:31 PM on July 14, 2023
Well, this is Marvel, after all, where death is usually a temporary inconvenience.
posted by Grangousier at 12:38 PM on July 14, 2023
posted by Grangousier at 12:38 PM on July 14, 2023
The Skrulls are shapeshifters. If you can turn into a cow, how hard could it be to shapeshift around a knife?
The Skrulls have never been the sort of "really a liquid" shapeshifters like Terminator 2's T-1000 or the Founders from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Even the comic book Skrulls who got hypnotized into being cows (and messed up the people who drank the milk) were still in the shape of a four-limbed mammal. The Founders and T-1000 were hard to kill, but there were plenty of Skrulls that got killed in Captain Marvel. And, yeah, the real Rhodey isn't dead--he's got Armor Wars coming up.
I'm hoping that Ben Mendelsohn isn't really gone; he was one of my favorite things about CM. (Speaking of what the Skrulls can and can't do, there's a bit where he makes the point that they can't really turn into a thing. Although it still begs the question of how humanoid they have to be.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:17 PM on July 14, 2023
The Skrulls have never been the sort of "really a liquid" shapeshifters like Terminator 2's T-1000 or the Founders from Star Trek: Deep Space Nine. Even the comic book Skrulls who got hypnotized into being cows (and messed up the people who drank the milk) were still in the shape of a four-limbed mammal. The Founders and T-1000 were hard to kill, but there were plenty of Skrulls that got killed in Captain Marvel. And, yeah, the real Rhodey isn't dead--he's got Armor Wars coming up.
I'm hoping that Ben Mendelsohn isn't really gone; he was one of my favorite things about CM. (Speaking of what the Skrulls can and can't do, there's a bit where he makes the point that they can't really turn into a thing. Although it still begs the question of how humanoid they have to be.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:17 PM on July 14, 2023
Talos on shapeshifting: "Why would I turn into a filing cabinet?"
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:48 PM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:48 PM on July 14, 2023 [1 favorite]
Even with all of the above, what bothers me the most is the idea that Gravik shot G'aia, and -- brilliant tactician and military strategist that he is -- just kind of left, with her body and motorcycle there. In what seems to be the only road in and out of their camp. And, at least a day later, he's all like "yeah I took care of that" and... he didn't go back to pick up her body? He didn't send anyone to pick up her body? He just leaves Skrull corpses (and motorcycles) littering the woods?
posted by Shepherd at 5:11 PM on July 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Shepherd at 5:11 PM on July 15, 2023 [5 favorites]
Next episode has a cameo from Quentin Tarantino saying angrily "Gravik, did you notice a sign out in front of this wood saying 'Dead Skrull Storage'?"
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:04 AM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:04 AM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
The more I think about the whole premise of the series... Fury has space friends. He has tons of space friends! He has entire categories of space friends! Can't he just say "hey, space friends, seen any planets capable of supporting an incredibly adaptive lifeform, with no evident sentient life, or failing that some sort of melting-pot flying space heads where multiple species seem to just get along and groove?"
I can buy The Snap being disorienting, but it would take, like, five minutes to make five Space Calls to various Space Friends. Or even to ring up your multi-dimensional friend. Gotta say I'm drifting a little Team Gravik when I think about how low this must be on Fury's list to not even dash off a text to a Space Friend asking for help.
posted by Shepherd at 5:23 AM on July 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
I can buy The Snap being disorienting, but it would take, like, five minutes to make five Space Calls to various Space Friends. Or even to ring up your multi-dimensional friend. Gotta say I'm drifting a little Team Gravik when I think about how low this must be on Fury's list to not even dash off a text to a Space Friend asking for help.
posted by Shepherd at 5:23 AM on July 16, 2023 [7 favorites]
There's another way they could have gone with this show where there's a B plot with Shang Chi and his cooler, evil sister as major characters, and they're trying to figure out which of the two of them is a skrull after Fury lets Talos call him in, and the USA/Russia thing has a third angle of this secret warlord of Wenwu's daughter is trying to influence China and is she just a regular supervillain asshole or a shapeshifting supervillain and there's a couple of big kung fu fights and dammit my favorite thing about marvel these days is arguing about how it could easily be better.
posted by fomhar at 6:38 AM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by fomhar at 6:38 AM on July 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
Just wanted to chime in to say I'm loving this ongoing discussion.
As I comic reader, I had zero interest in Marvel's Kree-Skrull stuff, so even though I'm a pretty regular viewer of the Marvel TV shows (there have been a couple I've skipped), I was hesitant about watching this. I figured if the reviews were good and it got a positive reception here on FanFare, then I'd give it a shot.
Reading your comments, it is evident to me I don't have to waste my time. Plus, I get to enjoy everybody's snark and criticisms while getting enough of the backstory that I know what's going on if it's referenced in another Marvel property, so it's a win-win-win for me.
posted by sardonyx at 10:45 AM on July 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
As I comic reader, I had zero interest in Marvel's Kree-Skrull stuff, so even though I'm a pretty regular viewer of the Marvel TV shows (there have been a couple I've skipped), I was hesitant about watching this. I figured if the reviews were good and it got a positive reception here on FanFare, then I'd give it a shot.
Reading your comments, it is evident to me I don't have to waste my time. Plus, I get to enjoy everybody's snark and criticisms while getting enough of the backstory that I know what's going on if it's referenced in another Marvel property, so it's a win-win-win for me.
posted by sardonyx at 10:45 AM on July 16, 2023 [3 favorites]
It looks like someone in the Fury household sorts books by color.
posted by Pronoiac at 10:49 PM on July 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Pronoiac at 10:49 PM on July 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
when I think about how low this must be on Fury's list to not even dash off a text to a Space Friend asking for help.
Of course, there's the point that Talos made during their argument - maybe a lot of the reason Nick Fury is, y'know, "Nick Fury" is that he's had a whole secret network of alien shapeshifters working for him for decades. I'm not sure the MCU will go that dark (Nick Fury having an "am I the bad guy?" moment), but that's a pretty good incentive to put "find a new planet my special spy network will disappear to ASAP" on the bottom of the pile. Even more so if you can convince yourself you're doing it for the greater good of Planet Earth.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:13 PM on October 1, 2023
Of course, there's the point that Talos made during their argument - maybe a lot of the reason Nick Fury is, y'know, "Nick Fury" is that he's had a whole secret network of alien shapeshifters working for him for decades. I'm not sure the MCU will go that dark (Nick Fury having an "am I the bad guy?" moment), but that's a pretty good incentive to put "find a new planet my special spy network will disappear to ASAP" on the bottom of the pile. Even more so if you can convince yourself you're doing it for the greater good of Planet Earth.
posted by soundguy99 at 9:13 PM on October 1, 2023
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posted by ellieBOA at 1:38 PM on July 12, 2023