Foundation: In Seldon's Shadow Books Included

July 15, 2023 7:30 AM - Season 2, Episode 1

Hari finds himself trapped in a mysterious prison. An assassination attempt leaves Day shaken. Gaal and Salvor devise an escape plan.
posted by Kyol (15 comments total)

I just wrapped up I'm A Virgo and the assassination sequence kinda reminded me of Jay "The Hero" Whittle, who seemingly hires assassins to entertain him. Except instead of a battle suit all Day has to defend himself is Lee Pace's giant raging boner.

Demerzel seems to be bound to Cleon, and as last season showed, will obey orders they give. But also resents this. I wonder if she is bound specifically to Cleon's DNA and her plan is to slowly (then quickly) unravel that Dynasty to free her from even that constraint. But to what end? We have hints that she wants to become more human, but if the conversation she had with Day last season was true, then she believes she has a soul (and empire does not). Bicentennial man style 'to be human is to die?'

Someone on reddit posted that her box actually has Earth's solar system on it, which is apparently lost to time.
posted by pwnguin at 9:27 AM on July 15, 2023 [2 favorites]

Not a great start (again). I desperately want to enjoy this. It looks great. But I only care about what’s happening in the falling empire.
posted by jjderooy at 6:38 PM on July 15, 2023 [1 favorite]

I was pretty happy that I guessed the right Cleonic number for 138 years having passed from the first season. My wife is torn and sort of wishes we'd waited until mmmph September when we could've binged it all in a couple of afternoons - we did that for the first season leading up to the second season to remind ourselves of things that mostly won't matter in the new crisis and a lot of the stuff that was a surprise was, like, obviously there once we knew what to look for. (f.e. when Hugo "missed" landing on the ship, the first time through it was OH NO NOT HUGO but the second time through - christ, they were _discussing_ it, but we didn't manage to put it together.)

I do sort of remember the Seldon crises going off the rails in the book and a whole project to try and get back on the Plan, but I don't think I ever got much past that. I did like the reference to untouchable golden men floating around - the sorts of rumors that a technologically challenged civilization would have when it encounters a civilization that's still working.

It felt like 138 years would have been too quick for the rings to have established if the scar was still fucking up Terminus after a 30 year generation, but Empire can accomplish stuff if he/it isn't busy dealing with the remote savages, I guess.
posted by Kyol at 6:39 PM on July 15, 2023

I saw a trailer for this the other day and was this show always so horny?
posted by praemunire at 7:04 PM on July 15, 2023

Yes and no. Savlor Hardin went to town with Hugo when he was in town, but there was no Brother Day pounding his mother-wife in the opening sequence of Season 1. That was supremely weird.
posted by pwnguin at 9:23 AM on July 16, 2023 [3 favorites]

I'm hooked so hard on this show.

A couple of thoughts:

1. Yes, Brother Day plowing Demerzel was weird. To me, it seemed to clearly demonstrate the decadence and decline of the Empire. Also highly ironic that Brother Day's idea is for a biological lineage but he's boning a robot.

2. Any thoughts on Gaal trapping Hari in the prime radiant? Last I knew, she was leaving his quantum consciousness on the Raven, getting in the pod, and departing for Synnax. How on earth did she "trap" him from there? Was there some subtle clue in the art film sequences?

But to what end? We have hints that she wants to become more human, but if the conversation she had with Day last season was true, then she believes she has a soul (and empire does not). Bicentennial man style 'to be human is to die?'

It seems to me that Demerzel is in purgatory at best, and possibly in hell. Last of her kind, burdened by an avalanche of memories, shackled to a genetic dynasty of madmen. She's subtly aiding the Foundation so that she might one day be free (and yes, that may mean death).
posted by rocketman at 7:45 AM on July 17, 2023

I sort of love how this show has come up with four separate solutions to the problem of synchronizing actors’ ages with chronology: the cryogenics thing, the consciousness-uploading thing, the Genetic Dynasty, and of course an ageless robot.

It’s almost like they started with the premise “we really want to do big time jumps but keep most of the cast” and built the world around that.
posted by staggernation at 8:56 PM on July 17, 2023 [5 favorites]

I was talking to my partner last night, and we worked out that Hari's consciousness was uploaded to the knife, which Gaal took with her when she departed the Raven. Somehow on Synnax she transferred his consciousness from the knife to the prime radiant, likely at the moment when we see Hari "fall" in his black & white art film.

It’s almost like they started with the premise “we really want to do big time jumps but keep most of the cast” and built the world around that.

I agree. I haven't read the books, but from my understanding of them, they've been pretty canny about the adaptation.
posted by rocketman at 5:34 AM on July 18, 2023

Oh, right - actually I was pretty sure that Raych and Hari's plan was to have the knife be Hari's final consciousness carrier all along - Raych was very careful to throw the knife into the escape pod with Gaal. I mean, partly to open the door on Hari's Synnax ship sure, but partly to get the most current copy of his consciousness off the slowship.
posted by Kyol at 6:02 AM on July 18, 2023

I haven't watched the episode nor the season 2 trailer yet. Some of the language used here is alarming to me - can anyone confirm if the sex scene is framed as if Demerzel is fully consenting or is it set up that she is being coerced/controlled/commanded into being a concubine?
posted by Faintdreams at 2:23 PM on July 18, 2023

Day said to Dusk (who was not pleased with the break from tradition) that “she initiated”.
posted by cardboard at 3:37 PM on July 18, 2023

I mean, it's not fully clear Demerzel is capable of consent as a robot.
posted by pwnguin at 11:40 PM on July 18, 2023

I think with the bit where he was having her switch modes was pretty clear. "I want the real you" (paraphrased), turned into a guessing game for her because her whole existence is tied to his wants, so... which is the "me" character you're asking for exactly?

Everyone except Empire knows it's gross. I hope that she's using it somehow to her long term advantage.
posted by Acari at 7:06 AM on July 19, 2023

Shen Yun is finally coming to Trantor
posted by DoctorFedora at 4:31 AM on July 21, 2023 [7 favorites]

We're just getting 'round to watching. I read all the books decades ago, my partner not so much.

I mean, it's not fully clear Demerzel is capable of consent as a robot.

I keep wondering if the show will touch on Asimov's 3 laws (4 if you include Daneel's 0th law) of robotics. Informed Consent is tricky when free choice is limited to the point of impacting the expression of free will. Larry Niven played with the idea in Protector when a character notes that being a protector - having the _right_ answer all the time - meant that knowledge + overriding responsibility meant they couldn't ever have true freewill.

We've been watching 3-4 episodes a night and haven't had time to wonder much about where they're going but this point, yeah, I'm almost more worried that the writers won't resolve it than the show being any good.
posted by mce at 10:22 AM on December 20, 2023