Good Omens: Season 2
July 28, 2023 9:36 PM - Season 2 (Full Season) - Subscribe
A naked archangel turns up at the door to renegade angel Aziraphale's bookshop, with no memory of who he is or how he got there, and Aziraphale and retired demon Crowley's lives become extremely complicated. Heaven and Hell are both desperate to find the runaway. As Crowley and Aziraphale attempt to fix a human romance, things become increasingly unsafe for them, in the past and the present.
I’ve watched it through twice now. I’ll admit the first watch I was apprehensive. While Crowley & Aziraphale were my favorite part of season 1, I found myself missing the energy of cutting between all the different storylines. I had to pause it a couple times to yell at the screen and annoy my husband:
- “He’s creating a nebula! They’re deliberately not revealing his angelic name! THIS IS SO FANFIC.”
- “Wait and see! That’s what Neil’s been saying to every question on his Tumblr for the past year!”
- “OMG IT’S THE BLITZ SCENE. This is literally a tag on Ao3 because there are so many fanfics about this night.”
- “DUDE. Beezebub/Gabriel has so many fanfics and now it’s canon! IT’S CANON!”
And then the kiss. I mean, Neil has always been saying this season is the bridge to get them to the real sequel material in series 3. (That’s the story he and Terry plotted years ago.) So it has to end on the downer ending to set everything up. I’m glad though that they didn’t shy away from having them kiss though. We finally got acknowledgement that it really is a love story.
And if it helps, weirdo, Neil said on his Tumblr that he’ll finish the story no matter what…
posted by web-goddess at 2:22 AM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
- “He’s creating a nebula! They’re deliberately not revealing his angelic name! THIS IS SO FANFIC.”
- “Wait and see! That’s what Neil’s been saying to every question on his Tumblr for the past year!”
- “OMG IT’S THE BLITZ SCENE. This is literally a tag on Ao3 because there are so many fanfics about this night.”
- “DUDE. Beezebub/Gabriel has so many fanfics and now it’s canon! IT’S CANON!”
And then the kiss. I mean, Neil has always been saying this season is the bridge to get them to the real sequel material in series 3. (That’s the story he and Terry plotted years ago.) So it has to end on the downer ending to set everything up. I’m glad though that they didn’t shy away from having them kiss though. We finally got acknowledgement that it really is a love story.
And if it helps, weirdo, Neil said on his Tumblr that he’ll finish the story no matter what…
posted by web-goddess at 2:22 AM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Three episodes in and enjoying it hugely one thing is nagging at me - I've been enthusiastic about the series because it's co-written with John Finnemore, who is great. But he's been strangely absent from promotional material. At first I thought, "Oh, well, maybe he's not as involved as I thought", but in those three episodes there's so much that seems so clearly in his voice - "Jim" is pure Finnemore (a sibling of Arthur from Cabin Pressure), as is Muriel and a lot of the character stuff - the flashback sequences (creation of the universe, Job, etc) are very like the Souvenir Programme. He is the funniest writer of that sort of thing alive, and the only choice if you want to emulate Terry P without imitating him. But a lot of the promotion suggests Gaiman is the Onlie Begetter, which is sitting strangely with me.
(It is excellent, though: I don't want to come across as negative.)
posted by Grangousier at 3:00 AM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
(It is excellent, though: I don't want to come across as negative.)
posted by Grangousier at 3:00 AM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
Season MVPs are Jon Hamm and Quelin Sepulveda, I think. Hamm with hot cocoa is a revelation of Biblical proportions, and Sepulveda lays on the Chaplin-inflected charm with a backhoe. Miranda Richardson still gets the best costumes, except weirdly for her armor, which was pretty terrible -- give Shax a proper flowing cape (even if motheaten) for pity's sake! I would damn near kill for that stunning burgundy reefer coat, though.
Excellent lurching -- even shambling -- from the zombie trio, who looked to be enjoying themselves. And the Job flashback had a lot of brilliant writing in it, and Sheen sold the hell out of Aziraphale's guilt and worry and despair.
As for Finnemore, I think the strikes are making a mess there. Gaiman has a long-running popular Tumblr that he's walking to the edge of strike rules with; I don't think Finnemore has anything comparable. Since most of the show promotion is perforce under-the-table...
The Metatron is terrifying -- all GO!Heaven's amorality, just without their gullibility and cluelessness-about-Earth, and with the drive-in-the-absence-of-orders that Michael and Uriel conspicuously can't muster this season. Can't go wrong with letting Derek Jacobi do Affably Evil.
posted by humbug at 4:43 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Excellent lurching -- even shambling -- from the zombie trio, who looked to be enjoying themselves. And the Job flashback had a lot of brilliant writing in it, and Sheen sold the hell out of Aziraphale's guilt and worry and despair.
As for Finnemore, I think the strikes are making a mess there. Gaiman has a long-running popular Tumblr that he's walking to the edge of strike rules with; I don't think Finnemore has anything comparable. Since most of the show promotion is perforce under-the-table...
The Metatron is terrifying -- all GO!Heaven's amorality, just without their gullibility and cluelessness-about-Earth, and with the drive-in-the-absence-of-orders that Michael and Uriel conspicuously can't muster this season. Can't go wrong with letting Derek Jacobi do Affably Evil.
posted by humbug at 4:43 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
As for Finnemore, I think the strikes are making a mess there. Gaiman has a long-running popular Tumblr that he's walking to the edge of strike rules with;
FYI, I have no idea what that means.
posted by Grangousier at 5:55 AM on July 29, 2023
FYI, I have no idea what that means.
posted by Grangousier at 5:55 AM on July 29, 2023
Oh, wait, sorry, you mean the writers strike banning promoting stuff? I was referring to pieces that go back a long way and press releases and things like that, and it's fine, really, I just expected slightly more prominence, probably unfairly. Basically, Mr F did a lot of the things that people are enjoying about this series, and I'd suggest that if they want more of it, they should try and find his radio series John Finnemore's Souvenir Programme, especially series nine (which has its own Metafilter thread).
posted by Grangousier at 5:59 AM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Grangousier at 5:59 AM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I agree that Finnemore's disappearance is weird, although Gaiman is clearly the controlling voice of the two.
The ending makes total sense in the context of both seasons, and there's a lot to be said about how mutually deluded both characters are about each other while simultaneously being deeply in love. They are also both really good at lying without admitting it to themselves, which doesn't help. The crucial lying in this season is by Crowley, and it's of the lying-by-omission sort. He neglects to mention Shax's existence to Aziraphale, he has not told Aziraphale the full story about execution by fire, and he never explains that the motivation for returning to help with Gabriel is the threat of Aziraphale's imminent excision from all of history. Omission #2 boomerangs back on Crowley in a big way...
Structurally, the season was not great, as while the minisodes absolutely had plot-relevance they were just too damned long (especially the 1941 setting), and seemed partly intended to cover for the lack of content for the main plot. The acting was mostly terrific, though.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:32 AM on July 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
The ending makes total sense in the context of both seasons, and there's a lot to be said about how mutually deluded both characters are about each other while simultaneously being deeply in love. They are also both really good at lying without admitting it to themselves, which doesn't help. The crucial lying in this season is by Crowley, and it's of the lying-by-omission sort. He neglects to mention Shax's existence to Aziraphale, he has not told Aziraphale the full story about execution by fire, and he never explains that the motivation for returning to help with Gabriel is the threat of Aziraphale's imminent excision from all of history. Omission #2 boomerangs back on Crowley in a big way...
Structurally, the season was not great, as while the minisodes absolutely had plot-relevance they were just too damned long (especially the 1941 setting), and seemed partly intended to cover for the lack of content for the main plot. The acting was mostly terrific, though.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:32 AM on July 29, 2023 [8 favorites]
Binged the season with some other extremely fannish folk and will definitely have to watch again, due to being distracted by all of the screaming.
I love how Tennant and Sheen can both do the biggest over the top comedy stuff and also the smallest, subtlest, most heartbreaking bits, sometimes in rapid succession (sometimes simultaneously, how?!?).
As mentioned above, there is hardly any plot. That's fine, except for how weirdly fanfic-y this season felt as a result. All of this ground has been so well trodden on Ao3 that I actually found it a little stale. No-one's fault, of course; if there was ever a fourth season of Hannibal, I'd probably feel the same about that.
posted by merriment at 8:28 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
I love how Tennant and Sheen can both do the biggest over the top comedy stuff and also the smallest, subtlest, most heartbreaking bits, sometimes in rapid succession (sometimes simultaneously, how?!?).
As mentioned above, there is hardly any plot. That's fine, except for how weirdly fanfic-y this season felt as a result. All of this ground has been so well trodden on Ao3 that I actually found it a little stale. No-one's fault, of course; if there was ever a fourth season of Hannibal, I'd probably feel the same about that.
posted by merriment at 8:28 AM on July 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yes, I can report from the fandom that we are Not Okay. But then I got spoiled accidentally for the ending and, what with one thing and another, haven't gotten around to actually finishing the series. It's pretty damn delightful, which is the important thing. Everyone did an amazing job, and I hope they can do it again, which seems so long a hope considering how fragile the whole labor situation is right now.
The next season -- or written conclusion,* if that's how we'll get it -- is probably going to be more Pratchett-esque, since that's what they had plotted for when Pratchett was still with us. It is said to have a happy ending for A. and C.
All of this ground has been so well trodden on Ao3 that I actually found it a little stale.
Due to poor life choices, I have read more than one fic where this exact sort of thing happens, and they turned out just fine in the end, which is some comfort. It's the fantastic acting and the dedication that makes the difference, though. Everyone involved just seems to love doing this series. I mean, I know it's people's job to convey that, but still -- even with the strike on, they really seem to.
I may see Corner Office just because I liked Jon Hamm so much in this. He needs to have more fun on film. He would have been a great ancillary Ken!
* It would also make a great podcast or graphic novel if it wasn't greenlighted for a third season.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:53 AM on July 29, 2023
The next season -- or written conclusion,* if that's how we'll get it -- is probably going to be more Pratchett-esque, since that's what they had plotted for when Pratchett was still with us. It is said to have a happy ending for A. and C.
All of this ground has been so well trodden on Ao3 that I actually found it a little stale.
Due to poor life choices, I have read more than one fic where this exact sort of thing happens, and they turned out just fine in the end, which is some comfort. It's the fantastic acting and the dedication that makes the difference, though. Everyone involved just seems to love doing this series. I mean, I know it's people's job to convey that, but still -- even with the strike on, they really seem to.
I may see Corner Office just because I liked Jon Hamm so much in this. He needs to have more fun on film. He would have been a great ancillary Ken!
* It would also make a great podcast or graphic novel if it wasn't greenlighted for a third season.
posted by Countess Elena at 8:53 AM on July 29, 2023
what with one thing and another, haven't gotten around to actually finishing the series
Countess Elena, maybe you'd consider letting the rest of the series play through while you're out of the room or something--because the possibility of a season 3 to resolve everything seems to depend on as many people streaming it completely, as soon as they can (according to Neil Gaiman's social media).
(I mean, I'm disgruntled at having to feel so responsible for another season in this way. But I do want a live action season 3 if at all possible. So I'll do it, gruntlement or no.)
posted by theatro at 10:50 AM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
Countess Elena, maybe you'd consider letting the rest of the series play through while you're out of the room or something--because the possibility of a season 3 to resolve everything seems to depend on as many people streaming it completely, as soon as they can (according to Neil Gaiman's social media).
(I mean, I'm disgruntled at having to feel so responsible for another season in this way. But I do want a live action season 3 if at all possible. So I'll do it, gruntlement or no.)
posted by theatro at 10:50 AM on July 29, 2023 [4 favorites]
I liked it, overall, because Sheen and Tennant are delights! They are perfect together! (I am also jealous of Crowley's hair color.) I think I would've liked Jon Hamm's himbo Gabriel more had it not come after Ryan Gosling's utterly iconic himbo Ken, but Hamm was still a lot of fun here. No actual complaints.
The overall plot of this season was kind of a nothing (but satisfying, sure). Everyone was having fun.
I'm confused as to why there was this whole "vinyl doesn't sell" thing, when, uh, it absolutely does. Maybe that particular record store has problems but yes, people are buying vinyl. That just felt such a weird out-of-touch joke for me. (Someone said it was just that Nina was mean and OK, fine, but insisting Maggie's store was a failure was just ... well, maybe it was, but not because people don't buy music on vinyl!)
posted by edencosmic at 6:29 PM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
The overall plot of this season was kind of a nothing (but satisfying, sure). Everyone was having fun.
I'm confused as to why there was this whole "vinyl doesn't sell" thing, when, uh, it absolutely does. Maybe that particular record store has problems but yes, people are buying vinyl. That just felt such a weird out-of-touch joke for me. (Someone said it was just that Nina was mean and OK, fine, but insisting Maggie's store was a failure was just ... well, maybe it was, but not because people don't buy music on vinyl!)
posted by edencosmic at 6:29 PM on July 29, 2023 [6 favorites]
If you like Jon Hamm doing comedy I strongly recommend Confess, Fletch.
posted by staggernation at 8:31 PM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by staggernation at 8:31 PM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Fun fact about the Job sequence:
I spotted Ty Tennant - David Tennant's son - as Ennon, Job's oldest son. But I didn't recognize who was playing Job himself, and just learned: that's Peter Davison, a.k.a. David Tennant's father-in-law.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:11 AM on July 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
I spotted Ty Tennant - David Tennant's son - as Ennon, Job's oldest son. But I didn't recognize who was playing Job himself, and just learned: that's Peter Davison, a.k.a. David Tennant's father-in-law.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:11 AM on July 30, 2023 [10 favorites]
Also, one of the recap articles I have since read made a point to marvel at:
David Tennant and Michael Sheen have only been working together for 4 years. Their riffing off each other and their timing feels like what you would find from a MUCH longer partnership, but...yeah, only 4 years.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:55 PM on July 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
David Tennant and Michael Sheen have only been working together for 4 years. Their riffing off each other and their timing feels like what you would find from a MUCH longer partnership, but...yeah, only 4 years.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:55 PM on July 30, 2023 [7 favorites]
I have a lot of feelings, and a lot of thoughts, and I'm really worried I won't figure out how to make sense of if them all until I've seen season 3. Which... Will be a long time from now.
For now, I am really fascinated by this theory, and I hope it's true.
posted by meese at 6:16 PM on July 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
For now, I am really fascinated by this theory, and I hope it's true.
posted by meese at 6:16 PM on July 30, 2023 [2 favorites]
I spotted Ty Tennant - David Tennant's son - as Ennon, Job's oldest son. But I didn't recognize who was playing Job himself, and just learned: that's Peter Davison, a.k.a. David Tennant's father-in-law.
It seems like half of the cast have at least one Dr Who credit under their belt. (Two Doctors, a Master, a Lethbridge-Stewart, etc.)
posted by nathan_teske at 7:24 PM on July 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
It seems like half of the cast have at least one Dr Who credit under their belt. (Two Doctors, a Master, a Lethbridge-Stewart, etc.)
posted by nathan_teske at 7:24 PM on July 30, 2023 [4 favorites]
At first, I flat-out hated the ending. I don't have anything against cliff-hangers (okay maybe I have something against cliff-hangers but only as I get older and closer to death) or sad break-ups, but I just didn't like it. It rubbed me the wrong way, it fell flat, it seemed... careless.
Then I got some sleep, which I have had precious little of lately, which is probably part of why I was thinking about being older and closer to death, and watched it again. And I liked it more, and I think I caught more.
I have now watched it three times and SOMETHING IS GOING ON. I don't buy the (wow, someone has had some Very Thinky Thoughts and possibly some drugs??) theory meese has linked to, but there is definitely more than meets the eye going on in this season.
(I hope. Because if not, then yikes.)
I am frustrated at how long we will have to wait for the resolution, strike or no strike, but that's neither here nor there. I'll be doing my part to stream it in full as many times as possible in the coming days and weeks, since that's all the streamers seem to give a shit about.
Mostly, right now, I'm just looking forward to the fanfiction this season will inspire.
posted by tzikeh at 3:51 AM on July 31, 2023
Then I got some sleep, which I have had precious little of lately, which is probably part of why I was thinking about being older and closer to death, and watched it again. And I liked it more, and I think I caught more.
I have now watched it three times and SOMETHING IS GOING ON. I don't buy the (wow, someone has had some Very Thinky Thoughts and possibly some drugs??) theory meese has linked to, but there is definitely more than meets the eye going on in this season.
(I hope. Because if not, then yikes.)
I am frustrated at how long we will have to wait for the resolution, strike or no strike, but that's neither here nor there. I'll be doing my part to stream it in full as many times as possible in the coming days and weeks, since that's all the streamers seem to give a shit about.
Mostly, right now, I'm just looking forward to the fanfiction this season will inspire.
posted by tzikeh at 3:51 AM on July 31, 2023
Countess Elena: It is said to have a happy ending for A. and C.
I don't think it's a spoiler to say that yes, it will end well for Aziraphale and Crowley, since a) it's not the kind of story that would end badly for them, and b) Neil Gaiman has talked openly many times across the years on social media and in interviews about what *specifically* happens to Aziraphale and Crowley at the end of the whole story (as plotted by both him and Pratchett long long ago). Like he's told us all publicly the specifics of how the story ends for them. A large chunk of the fanfiction for this fandom is set in that ending. The end for the TV series is also already written--according to Neil, in case something happens to him before he can sit down and write the rest of it, which hey we're back to "we might die before it gets finished" thoughts!--so we can take comfort in that I guess.
posted by tzikeh at 3:59 AM on July 31, 2023
I don't think it's a spoiler to say that yes, it will end well for Aziraphale and Crowley, since a) it's not the kind of story that would end badly for them, and b) Neil Gaiman has talked openly many times across the years on social media and in interviews about what *specifically* happens to Aziraphale and Crowley at the end of the whole story (as plotted by both him and Pratchett long long ago). Like he's told us all publicly the specifics of how the story ends for them. A large chunk of the fanfiction for this fandom is set in that ending. The end for the TV series is also already written--according to Neil, in case something happens to him before he can sit down and write the rest of it, which hey we're back to "we might die before it gets finished" thoughts!--so we can take comfort in that I guess.
posted by tzikeh at 3:59 AM on July 31, 2023
BTW I finally figured out after three viewings who Amnesia!Gabriel reminded me of:
Kronk.
posted by tzikeh at 4:00 AM on July 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Kronk.
posted by tzikeh at 4:00 AM on July 31, 2023 [10 favorites]
Haven't finished the season yet, so I'm kind of skimming right now. Just in right now to say we're two episodes deep and loving it. I just love the characters so much and the actors, there's really very little plot needed to keep me coming back.
Ep. 2 though, did they turn the kids into ... newts? And then they got better? Please tell me that was an intentional Monty Python joke.
posted by jzb at 7:18 AM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Ep. 2 though, did they turn the kids into ... newts? And then they got better? Please tell me that was an intentional Monty Python joke.
posted by jzb at 7:18 AM on July 31, 2023 [6 favorites]
Crowley pretended to destroy the sheep and the kids by transforming them into other things, on the assumption that the heavenly representatives wouldn't be able to tell the difference between reconstituted animals and children and completely new ones.
posted by Grangousier at 8:08 AM on July 31, 2023
posted by Grangousier at 8:08 AM on July 31, 2023
(Entirely justified assumption, as it turned out.)
posted by Grangousier at 8:09 AM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Grangousier at 8:09 AM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
> Ep. 2 though, did they turn the kids into ... newts? And then they got better? Please tell me that was an intentional Monty Python joke.
Crowley pretended to destroy the sheep and the kids by transforming them into other things, on the assumption that the heavenly representatives wouldn't be able to tell the difference between reconstituted animals and children and completely new ones.
Oh, I think we understood why Crowley turned the sheep and the kids into other things, I think the question was about "why was the other thing the kids got turned into newts specifically".
And actually, jzb, I'm not sure those were newts, I think they were lizards.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:34 AM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
Crowley pretended to destroy the sheep and the kids by transforming them into other things, on the assumption that the heavenly representatives wouldn't be able to tell the difference between reconstituted animals and children and completely new ones.
Oh, I think we understood why Crowley turned the sheep and the kids into other things, I think the question was about "why was the other thing the kids got turned into newts specifically".
And actually, jzb, I'm not sure those were newts, I think they were lizards.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:34 AM on July 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
It seems like half of the cast have at least one Dr Who credit under their belt. (Two Doctors, a Master, a Lethbridge-Stewart, etc.)
I'm more amused that it seems that David Tennant is becoming the lynchpin for a whole damn theatrical dynasty like the Barrymores:
* He met his wife Georgia Moffett when she was on a Doctor Who episode
* Georgia is Peter Davison's daughter (which made for some REALLY surreal moments when they were starting in with dating, apparently), and she has continued to work in her own right (she's big on producing the Staged bits they do, and it also looks like she's about to do Doctor Who radio stuff with her father)
* Georgia already had her son Ty, and David formally adopted him after he and Georgia married, and he's since been in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON and this among other things
* Their daughter Olive is also a child actor - she was in Kenneth Branagh's movie BELFAST, playing the girl that the main character had a crush on
...And there are three more kids who are still quite young, one of them is only about four.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 AM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm more amused that it seems that David Tennant is becoming the lynchpin for a whole damn theatrical dynasty like the Barrymores:
* He met his wife Georgia Moffett when she was on a Doctor Who episode
* Georgia is Peter Davison's daughter (which made for some REALLY surreal moments when they were starting in with dating, apparently), and she has continued to work in her own right (she's big on producing the Staged bits they do, and it also looks like she's about to do Doctor Who radio stuff with her father)
* Georgia already had her son Ty, and David formally adopted him after he and Georgia married, and he's since been in HOUSE OF THE DRAGON and this among other things
* Their daughter Olive is also a child actor - she was in Kenneth Branagh's movie BELFAST, playing the girl that the main character had a crush on
...And there are three more kids who are still quite young, one of them is only about four.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:59 AM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
David Tennant and Michael Sheen have only been working together for 4 years. Their riffing off each other and their timing feels like what you would find from a MUCH longer partnership, but...yeah, only 4 years.
They spent the pandemic together-ish! Their show “Staged” on BritBox is its own delight.
posted by vitabellosi at 1:45 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
They spent the pandemic together-ish! Their show “Staged” on BritBox is its own delight.
posted by vitabellosi at 1:45 PM on July 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
They spent the pandemic together-ish!
Oh, I know. And the rapport they had on THAT is telling; they'd only been working together a year then and it still felt like they'd been working together since college or something.
....also, they LOOOOOOOOOVE working together, you can just tell. I've been in the room when two actors meet for the first time and start going through a script, and somehow something between them just lights up and it enervates their performances. One takes some weird little risk with their reading of a line, and the other knows exactly what they're doing and volleys the weird right back at them, and they start sizing each other up with grins like "Oh, okay, this is working really well." It is delightful to see that happen, and we've seen it happen here between David Tennant and Michael Sheen.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:17 PM on July 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
Oh, I know. And the rapport they had on THAT is telling; they'd only been working together a year then and it still felt like they'd been working together since college or something.
....also, they LOOOOOOOOOVE working together, you can just tell. I've been in the room when two actors meet for the first time and start going through a script, and somehow something between them just lights up and it enervates their performances. One takes some weird little risk with their reading of a line, and the other knows exactly what they're doing and volleys the weird right back at them, and they start sizing each other up with grins like "Oh, okay, this is working really well." It is delightful to see that happen, and we've seen it happen here between David Tennant and Michael Sheen.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:17 PM on July 31, 2023 [8 favorites]
(To be fair, they didn't start working together in 2019; that's when the first series aired. So they had to have been working together since at least 2017. But still, it does feel like they've always been a comedy duo whenever they appear together.)
posted by tzikeh at 10:02 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by tzikeh at 10:02 AM on August 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
One thing that I find odd about the whole series is that God is nowhere to be found. There are angels and demons and devils and Satan, but no mention is ever made of God. At one point we see an old dude with a white beard…but no, that turns out to be Metatron (surely the guardian angel of Metafilter). All this despite depicting a Christian-inspired notion of the afterlife.
They made explicit reference to the second coming, which implies Jesus, which implies God, but so far, no one has mentioned God, and God hasn't appeared.
Another odd thing: there are a lot of dead people in Hell. We don't see any dead people in Heaven.
While watching this, my wife asked "Is Jon Hamm acting wooden, or is that just him?" I asked "Did you think he was wooden on Mad Men?" (She loved Mad Men, btw). "Yeah, kinda."
posted by adamrice at 8:51 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
They made explicit reference to the second coming, which implies Jesus, which implies God, but so far, no one has mentioned God, and God hasn't appeared.
Another odd thing: there are a lot of dead people in Hell. We don't see any dead people in Heaven.
While watching this, my wife asked "Is Jon Hamm acting wooden, or is that just him?" I asked "Did you think he was wooden on Mad Men?" (She loved Mad Men, btw). "Yeah, kinda."
posted by adamrice at 8:51 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
One of the funny little contradictions is that Crowley was an architect and Aziraphale was a soldier (he's the one who'd been issued a flaming sword after all) in their assigned roles. When we meet them in Good Omens, Crowley is "violent" and Aziraphale is "gentle" but in the book/first season, it's Aziraphale who's willing to kill to solve their problem. In this season, he's the one with a gun license while Crowley has managed to make it all the way to (near) modern times without ever firing one. And he's the one who pulls out the holy hand grenade in the climactic battle.
posted by Karmakaze at 8:59 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Karmakaze at 8:59 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Adamrice: Frances McDormand, who narrated last season, was meant to be God. You hear her during the Job scene when Job is asking God what's up and she is answering him.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 AM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:31 AM on August 2, 2023 [3 favorites]
EmpressCallipygos—thanks. I guess I didn't pick up on that. Still, not a character that other characters interact with or mention by name, unless there's something else I'm not picking up on.
posted by adamrice at 9:36 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by adamrice at 9:36 AM on August 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Correct, and the show comments on that several times. The most important bit to rewatch is probably the animated chunk of s1 opening where McDormand-as-God talks about playing "an ineffable game of My own devising."
In season 1, Crowley says during an argument with Aziraphale, "there's only God, moving in mysterious ways and not talking to any of us!" Crowley also begs Her at one point to "show me a Great Plan!" and "not test [the humans] to destruction."
Without theorizing (if you want theories, go to Tumblr, Tumblr is absolutely swimming in theories)... I think God's absence is significant and will be returned to, should there be a third season. Without theorizing, only meta-ing: the show is not at all impressed with or approving of God's behavior. I think I've even run across a niche Tumblr tag "good omens god is a horror."
posted by humbug at 10:11 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
In season 1, Crowley says during an argument with Aziraphale, "there's only God, moving in mysterious ways and not talking to any of us!" Crowley also begs Her at one point to "show me a Great Plan!" and "not test [the humans] to destruction."
Without theorizing (if you want theories, go to Tumblr, Tumblr is absolutely swimming in theories)... I think God's absence is significant and will be returned to, should there be a third season. Without theorizing, only meta-ing: the show is not at all impressed with or approving of God's behavior. I think I've even run across a niche Tumblr tag "good omens god is a horror."
posted by humbug at 10:11 AM on August 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
It eventually dawned on me that the actress playing Shax was the medium from last season. I did not catch that coffeeshop-owner Nina was played by the same actress as Sister Mary Loquacious!
I guessed the Gabriel/Beelzebub relationship when Beelzebub was uninterested in torturing a subordinate. (In retrospect, the recasting was also a hint.) But most of the rest of the show was a delightful surprise.
Putting C.M.O.T. Dibbler's name on the laudanum to be used in a suicide didn't feel like a Pratchett joke, but it was cute. The Pratchett seamstress was lovely. And using the Good Omens cassette magic as A Clue was great.
Lot's children were probably lizards due to the desert setting, but in spirit they were newts.
Also looking forward to Chekhov's Nazi Zombies turning up next season?
posted by mersen at 12:44 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
I guessed the Gabriel/Beelzebub relationship when Beelzebub was uninterested in torturing a subordinate. (In retrospect, the recasting was also a hint.) But most of the rest of the show was a delightful surprise.
Putting C.M.O.T. Dibbler's name on the laudanum to be used in a suicide didn't feel like a Pratchett joke, but it was cute. The Pratchett seamstress was lovely. And using the Good Omens cassette magic as A Clue was great.
Lot's children were probably lizards due to the desert setting, but in spirit they were newts.
Also looking forward to Chekhov's Nazi Zombies turning up next season?
posted by mersen at 12:44 PM on August 2, 2023 [6 favorites]
mersen:
It eventually dawned on me that the actress playing Shax was the medium from last season. I did not catch that coffeeshop-owner Nina was played by the same actress as Sister Mary Loquacious!
And Furfur (the demon who makes the Nazis into zombies) played Shakespeare in S1. Maggie was Sister Theresa Garrulous.
(In retrospect, the recasting was also a hint.)
Huh? The recasting was because the actress who played Beelzebub first season was not available during the shooting schedule for S2. What does this mean?
posted by tzikeh at 2:37 PM on August 2, 2023
It eventually dawned on me that the actress playing Shax was the medium from last season. I did not catch that coffeeshop-owner Nina was played by the same actress as Sister Mary Loquacious!
And Furfur (the demon who makes the Nazis into zombies) played Shakespeare in S1. Maggie was Sister Theresa Garrulous.
(In retrospect, the recasting was also a hint.)
Huh? The recasting was because the actress who played Beelzebub first season was not available during the shooting schedule for S2. What does this mean?
posted by tzikeh at 2:37 PM on August 2, 2023
adamrice: One thing that I find odd about the whole series is that God is nowhere to be found.
I don't know that I would call it odd. It's very pointedly written that way on purpose. You are supposed to notice it. The lack of God as a main player in this story is conspicuous.
And they do mention God by name several times in season 1. Both Crowley and Aziraphale ask to talk to God -- Crowley directly, Aziraphale by using his portal to open a channel to Heaven, answered by Metatron.
posted by tzikeh at 2:51 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I don't know that I would call it odd. It's very pointedly written that way on purpose. You are supposed to notice it. The lack of God as a main player in this story is conspicuous.
And they do mention God by name several times in season 1. Both Crowley and Aziraphale ask to talk to God -- Crowley directly, Aziraphale by using his portal to open a channel to Heaven, answered by Metatron.
posted by tzikeh at 2:51 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
I just finished the series and I'm very disappointed that the writers went full-on for the fan relationshipping. It is possible and not at all unusual for lifelong friendships to exist without sex being part of it.
Think of brothers, band members, co-writers, etc. Romance is not needed for a true commitment.
The sentimental mush undermines the strength of the partnership Crowley and Aziraphale have formed. Sure, humans are romantic and sexual. But angels and demons? Highly unlikely.
Perhaps it's all part of the Ineffable Plan. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
posted by Enid Lareg at 7:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Think of brothers, band members, co-writers, etc. Romance is not needed for a true commitment.
The sentimental mush undermines the strength of the partnership Crowley and Aziraphale have formed. Sure, humans are romantic and sexual. But angels and demons? Highly unlikely.
Perhaps it's all part of the Ineffable Plan. I guess we'll have to wait and see.
posted by Enid Lareg at 7:13 PM on August 2, 2023 [4 favorites]
Enid Lareg: I just finished the series and I'm very disappointed that the writers went full-on for the fan relationshipping.
It's interesting that you see it as "fan relationshipping" (could that drip with more condescension, do you think?) rather than "The world has changed in the past 30 years, people's understanding of "human" nature evolve over time, and BTW do you know how the story ends? Because Neil Gaiman has told everyone, publicly, multiple times."
It's true that romance is not necessary for true commitment, but nobody's saying that it is. There's nothing to suggest that they aren't devoted to each other entirely aside from the fact that they're romantically attracted to each other. Like... ????
I mean sorry you feel disappointed that these two beings (who were, like, overtly in love with one another in S1, so much so that the actors kept referring to how much their characters loved each other in interviews) have acknowledged the romantic element that exists in their already deep and meaningful relationship.
You sound like that one guy who tweeted to Michael Sheen that he should stop encouraging the fans and their silly love-filled fanfictions and just let there be some entertainment for discerning, sophisticated adults. Sheen told the guy to fuck right off.
posted by tzikeh at 12:18 AM on August 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
It's interesting that you see it as "fan relationshipping" (could that drip with more condescension, do you think?) rather than "The world has changed in the past 30 years, people's understanding of "human" nature evolve over time, and BTW do you know how the story ends? Because Neil Gaiman has told everyone, publicly, multiple times."
It's true that romance is not necessary for true commitment, but nobody's saying that it is. There's nothing to suggest that they aren't devoted to each other entirely aside from the fact that they're romantically attracted to each other. Like... ????
I mean sorry you feel disappointed that these two beings (who were, like, overtly in love with one another in S1, so much so that the actors kept referring to how much their characters loved each other in interviews) have acknowledged the romantic element that exists in their already deep and meaningful relationship.
You sound like that one guy who tweeted to Michael Sheen that he should stop encouraging the fans and their silly love-filled fanfictions and just let there be some entertainment for discerning, sophisticated adults. Sheen told the guy to fuck right off.
posted by tzikeh at 12:18 AM on August 3, 2023 [12 favorites]
Tzikeh. Your opinion is valid, but so is mine. I do not believe that sexuality is part of the makeup of demons and angels. That's not how they were made. Also, the idea that Beelzebub would have any autonomy is crazy. Satan is not likely to let anyone out from under his foot.
No, I don't know what Gaiman is up to, but Pratchett was never sentimental.
posted by Enid Lareg at 8:18 AM on August 3, 2023
No, I don't know what Gaiman is up to, but Pratchett was never sentimental.
posted by Enid Lareg at 8:18 AM on August 3, 2023
I don't know what Gaiman is up to, but Pratchett was never sentimental.
This sequel (and season 3) are based on a planned-but-not-written sequel that Neil and Sir Terry discussed. The two of them were sharing a hotel room at some sci-fi convention in the late 80s and had jet lag and started riffing on a sequel idea, and got so caught up in it that they plotted the whole thing out. They'd always meant to write it but never found the time.
So, presumably - whatever you think that Neil is "up to", it is something he planned out already with Sir Terry Pratchett's participation, and presumed lack of senimentality.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:09 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
This sequel (and season 3) are based on a planned-but-not-written sequel that Neil and Sir Terry discussed. The two of them were sharing a hotel room at some sci-fi convention in the late 80s and had jet lag and started riffing on a sequel idea, and got so caught up in it that they plotted the whole thing out. They'd always meant to write it but never found the time.
So, presumably - whatever you think that Neil is "up to", it is something he planned out already with Sir Terry Pratchett's participation, and presumed lack of senimentality.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:09 AM on August 3, 2023 [8 favorites]
Finnemore has done so so brilliantly. He’s so fantastic.
Would be interested in maybe secret pointers to this ‘the ending is all out there’ thing.
Was a bit perturbed that the Nazi zombies ate the Jewish guy.
posted by lokta at 12:49 PM on August 3, 2023
Would be interested in maybe secret pointers to this ‘the ending is all out there’ thing.
Was a bit perturbed that the Nazi zombies ate the Jewish guy.
posted by lokta at 12:49 PM on August 3, 2023
Oh! (the future ending)
mionbxiqhmwinnuay, right? (ROT20 because some of us got quite good at reading ROT13 lol)
posted by lokta at 12:53 PM on August 3, 2023
mionbxiqhmwinnuay, right? (ROT20 because some of us got quite good at reading ROT13 lol)
posted by lokta at 12:53 PM on August 3, 2023
lotka: mionbxiqhmwinnuay, right?
Yes. I'd barely call it a spoiler since it's been out there Neil posted it to his blog in 2005, since Irisbleufic asked a follow-up question at a convention and got more information, and has also been posted several times to Neil's Twitter and Tumblr, but I will continue to err on the side of caution.
posted by tzikeh at 9:42 PM on August 3, 2023
Yes. I'd barely call it a spoiler since it's been out there Neil posted it to his blog in 2005, since Irisbleufic asked a follow-up question at a convention and got more information, and has also been posted several times to Neil's Twitter and Tumblr, but I will continue to err on the side of caution.
posted by tzikeh at 9:42 PM on August 3, 2023
I mean sorry you feel disappointed that these two beings (who were, like, overtly in love with one another in S1, so much so that the actors kept referring to how much their characters loved each other in interviews) have acknowledged the romantic element that exists in their already deep and meaningful relationship.
(I actually don't care either way whether they are romantically involved or not)
I personally did not pick up on the "overtly in love" vibes, to me they were two people who cared about each other deeply which very much can happen with friendship. In season 2 they make it overt. Also, maybe Angels and Demons dont have sexy bits, but they do have hearts!
Granted that there is alot of history with this show, maybe a books vs non-books thread should have been done. Generally within FanFare, we don't require that people also consume all external media when forming opinions about the series.
And please don't spoil how the series is supposed to end. Some of us have only been introduced to this through the series itself and have no idea about anything Niel or Terry said about the series.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:44 AM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
(I actually don't care either way whether they are romantically involved or not)
I personally did not pick up on the "overtly in love" vibes, to me they were two people who cared about each other deeply which very much can happen with friendship. In season 2 they make it overt. Also, maybe Angels and Demons dont have sexy bits, but they do have hearts!
Granted that there is alot of history with this show, maybe a books vs non-books thread should have been done. Generally within FanFare, we don't require that people also consume all external media when forming opinions about the series.
And please don't spoil how the series is supposed to end. Some of us have only been introduced to this through the series itself and have no idea about anything Niel or Terry said about the series.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:44 AM on August 4, 2023 [5 favorites]
Er, sorry? I'll try to be more clear.
I had assumed the comments in the show about Beelzebub's face were just to flag the recasting.
In-universe, it is not normal for Beelzebub to change faces and that should have been a clue that she was doing something unusual. It's the equivalent of a coworker suddenly wearing a suit to the office because she "just felt like dressing up".
posted by mersen at 8:04 AM on August 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I had assumed the comments in the show about Beelzebub's face were just to flag the recasting.
In-universe, it is not normal for Beelzebub to change faces and that should have been a clue that she was doing something unusual. It's the equivalent of a coworker suddenly wearing a suit to the office because she "just felt like dressing up".
posted by mersen at 8:04 AM on August 4, 2023 [2 favorites]
I have mixed feelings about this--Tennant and Sheen are tremendously entertaining, but I agree with some of the comments above that there wasn't much plot, and for me that can make some of the stuff I dislike (zombies, for example) be annoying to sit through when they're completely irrelevant to any plot points.
Re: fan theories. While I don't agree with every little thing that was cited in that behemoth of an essay, some things really do feel off for me. Like the diary entry where Aziraphale writes about meeting Crowley. For someone as frightened of their "fraternizing" being discovered, keeping diary entries are like a "is you takin' notes on a criminal fuckin' conspiracy?" level of stupidity for Aziraphale. And I think if they'd actually been caught on camera in 1941, they'd have been a lot more careful about being seen in public together post-1941 than they were in S1.
I'm hoping the fan theory is wrong. I would much rather S3 spend most of its time on Crowley and especially Aziraphale working on getting their shit together and mending their relationship from a break that arose out of their own authentic different in worldview/priorities. I have very little interest in a season about the super-genius bad guy rewriting their memories and inventing characters out of whole cloth. Especially since it sure looks like we're also going to get a fair bit about Heaven's angelic hierachies and possibly Crowley was Raphael (which is the single most boring Good Omens subject matter in existence for me.)
I'll probably watch S3 (if there is one) mostly for the performances, and because I want Crowley to be happy, or at least in a better place than he was at the end of this season.
posted by creepygirl at 11:18 PM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
Re: fan theories. While I don't agree with every little thing that was cited in that behemoth of an essay, some things really do feel off for me. Like the diary entry where Aziraphale writes about meeting Crowley. For someone as frightened of their "fraternizing" being discovered, keeping diary entries are like a "is you takin' notes on a criminal fuckin' conspiracy?" level of stupidity for Aziraphale. And I think if they'd actually been caught on camera in 1941, they'd have been a lot more careful about being seen in public together post-1941 than they were in S1.
I'm hoping the fan theory is wrong. I would much rather S3 spend most of its time on Crowley and especially Aziraphale working on getting their shit together and mending their relationship from a break that arose out of their own authentic different in worldview/priorities. I have very little interest in a season about the super-genius bad guy rewriting their memories and inventing characters out of whole cloth. Especially since it sure looks like we're also going to get a fair bit about Heaven's angelic hierachies and possibly Crowley was Raphael (which is the single most boring Good Omens subject matter in existence for me.)
I'll probably watch S3 (if there is one) mostly for the performances, and because I want Crowley to be happy, or at least in a better place than he was at the end of this season.
posted by creepygirl at 11:18 PM on August 4, 2023 [3 favorites]
DAE think one of the hidden "setups" in this season is that Crowley is not what he seems to be. The biggest mystery left over from Season 2 is imo "how the fuck did these two beings' tiny little miracle end up so big and powerful?"
------------ we're *led* to think the answer is obviously that Aziraphale is stronger than he knows, what with Aziraphale being tapped to be supreme archangel by the end, but we see in the demon-attack scene that he is not insanely powerful, just normal for an angel - classic misdirection!
------------ but we see Crowley fucking create the stars right at the beginning of Season 2
------------ and he *constantly* pulls out showstopper escapes/stunts/etc that are well beyond what any other beings seem to be able to do
------------ Crowley still retains high level access to heaven's records
------------ I thinnkkk in the scene with the bullet catch, Crowley really does manage to do a miracle despite the miracle blocker. The trick goes far too smoothly to be natural.
So I keep thinking maybe Crowley is God herself gone rogue/memory wiped. There's a couple of clues pointing to gender fuckery:
- Crowley says he's "not a lad" (I lol'd at this Good Place reference!) because God in this universe is a woman
- Crowley was Warlock's female nanny last season
AND there's a couple of scenes underlining how God doesn't make any sense when she talks. (Assume there is some Jeremy Bearimy/ timey-wimey bending afoot.) Classic ramblings of a woman with a memory wipe, you know? Plus, Crowley's awning plan is just so much better than Aziraphale's ball :P he sure seems to know how love works much better than the angel does!
Narrative structure-wise, this makes incredible sense too. Just see how much dramatic irony has been set up for Aziraphale's arc here - he's literally throwing away a chance to be with God herself, just to be in charge of heaven.
Yep, folks, this is my theory and I'm sticking to it.
posted by MiraK at 4:55 AM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
------------ we're *led* to think the answer is obviously that Aziraphale is stronger than he knows, what with Aziraphale being tapped to be supreme archangel by the end, but we see in the demon-attack scene that he is not insanely powerful, just normal for an angel - classic misdirection!
------------ but we see Crowley fucking create the stars right at the beginning of Season 2
------------ and he *constantly* pulls out showstopper escapes/stunts/etc that are well beyond what any other beings seem to be able to do
------------ Crowley still retains high level access to heaven's records
------------ I thinnkkk in the scene with the bullet catch, Crowley really does manage to do a miracle despite the miracle blocker. The trick goes far too smoothly to be natural.
So I keep thinking maybe Crowley is God herself gone rogue/memory wiped. There's a couple of clues pointing to gender fuckery:
- Crowley says he's "not a lad" (I lol'd at this Good Place reference!) because God in this universe is a woman
- Crowley was Warlock's female nanny last season
AND there's a couple of scenes underlining how God doesn't make any sense when she talks. (Assume there is some Jeremy Bearimy/ timey-wimey bending afoot.) Classic ramblings of a woman with a memory wipe, you know? Plus, Crowley's awning plan is just so much better than Aziraphale's ball :P he sure seems to know how love works much better than the angel does!
Narrative structure-wise, this makes incredible sense too. Just see how much dramatic irony has been set up for Aziraphale's arc here - he's literally throwing away a chance to be with God herself, just to be in charge of heaven.
Yep, folks, this is my theory and I'm sticking to it.
posted by MiraK at 4:55 AM on August 5, 2023 [4 favorites]
On reading several other comments on this thread, I feel I should note: I know no spoilers at all for what is to come in the future. Haven't read what Gaiman has said about the ending. :)
posted by MiraK at 5:08 AM on August 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by MiraK at 5:08 AM on August 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Crowley is not what he seems to be.
Have the relative strengths and/or weaknesses of Crowley and Azipraphale ever been addressed by Gaiman or Pratchett? Aziraphale seems more of a soldier (his comfort with the gun, his defense of the bookshop) while Crowley is a architect/higher-order type (thus he builds the stars and can stop time and doesn't know guns but does know rules inside and out).
And I really hope some explanation emerges for the discrepancies between S1 and S2 biblical-era Crowley, whether this comes from S3 or from Gaiman's public messages.
posted by beaning at 11:25 AM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Have the relative strengths and/or weaknesses of Crowley and Azipraphale ever been addressed by Gaiman or Pratchett? Aziraphale seems more of a soldier (his comfort with the gun, his defense of the bookshop) while Crowley is a architect/higher-order type (thus he builds the stars and can stop time and doesn't know guns but does know rules inside and out).
And I really hope some explanation emerges for the discrepancies between S1 and S2 biblical-era Crowley, whether this comes from S3 or from Gaiman's public messages.
posted by beaning at 11:25 AM on August 5, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not to abuse the edit window but to build out my question about relative strengths...
Aziraphale was Guardian of the East Gate with a flaming sword which would seem important but no one seems surprised he "lost" the sword and he's not a high priority recall in S1's war and the demons don't seem particularly afraid to attack him/the shop in S2. Most of the angels and demons treat him casually, and seem to expect some degree of bumbling. Which I guess is a good way to hide in some aspects--"well, he so likes rescuing me."
Crowley downplays Aziraphale's concern about asking too many questions, readily orders angels and demons around, and everybody seems to want to be his friend as "don't you remember me?" comes from both demons and angels.
posted by beaning at 11:37 AM on August 5, 2023
Aziraphale was Guardian of the East Gate with a flaming sword which would seem important but no one seems surprised he "lost" the sword and he's not a high priority recall in S1's war and the demons don't seem particularly afraid to attack him/the shop in S2. Most of the angels and demons treat him casually, and seem to expect some degree of bumbling. Which I guess is a good way to hide in some aspects--"well, he so likes rescuing me."
Crowley downplays Aziraphale's concern about asking too many questions, readily orders angels and demons around, and everybody seems to want to be his friend as "don't you remember me?" comes from both demons and angels.
posted by beaning at 11:37 AM on August 5, 2023
And about the fanfic-ization of their relationship...
I don't think Crowley saw a romantic or sexual partnership with Aziraphale until Maggie and Nina talked to him in S3/episode 6. Apparently, though such partnerships are not unknown to angels and demons as seen in the demons' talks regarding war-time Crowley and Aziraphale, and also Gabriel and Beelzbub.
posted by beaning at 11:41 AM on August 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
I don't think Crowley saw a romantic or sexual partnership with Aziraphale until Maggie and Nina talked to him in S3/episode 6. Apparently, though such partnerships are not unknown to angels and demons as seen in the demons' talks regarding war-time Crowley and Aziraphale, and also Gabriel and Beelzbub.
posted by beaning at 11:41 AM on August 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Hmm, actually there's a google doc that addresses much of what Neil Gaiman has said about Good Omens and the characters.
posted by beaning at 1:17 PM on August 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by beaning at 1:17 PM on August 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
And a Kickstarter for an official Good Omens graphic novel, with one level offering a copy signed by Neil.
posted by beaning at 1:18 PM on August 5, 2023
posted by beaning at 1:18 PM on August 5, 2023
No, I don't know what Gaiman is up to, but Pratchett was never sentimental.
Hard disagree on this.
posted by Pendragon at 2:50 PM on August 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
Hard disagree on this.
posted by Pendragon at 2:50 PM on August 5, 2023 [8 favorites]
MiraK: I thinnkkk in the scene with the bullet catch, Crowley really does manage to do a miracle despite the miracle blocker. The trick goes far too smoothly to be natural.
How do you see "Crowley almost blows Mrs. Henderson's head off by purposely shifting his aim and firing into the wings, nowhere near Aziraphale" as the trick going "far too smoothly"?
So I keep thinking maybe Crowley is God herself gone rogue/memory wiped.
What
- Crowley says he's "not a lad" (I lol'd at this Good Place reference!)
He doesn't say "not a lad." He responds to someone who says "You're a good lad" with "Not actually. Either. But thank you!" This isn't a "not a girl!" hat-tip.
because God in this universe is a woman
#1: Crowley refutes the statement that he's a "lad" because Crowley is not male. There isn't "evidence" of gender fuckery; Crowley has always been genderfluid (note female-gendered hair and raiments at the Crucifixion, Nanny Ashtoreth, etc.) Gaiman has talked about this multiple times, that Crowley is not a man because he's not human. He even addressed the "not a lad" joke specifically.
#2: If your theory of "Crowley = memory-wiped God" were true, Crowley wouldn't make the "Not actually. Either" joke because he wouldn't know that he wasn't a lad, because... memory wipe. This just loops back in on itself.
posted by tzikeh at 7:25 PM on August 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
How do you see "Crowley almost blows Mrs. Henderson's head off by purposely shifting his aim and firing into the wings, nowhere near Aziraphale" as the trick going "far too smoothly"?
So I keep thinking maybe Crowley is God herself gone rogue/memory wiped.
What
- Crowley says he's "not a lad" (I lol'd at this Good Place reference!)
He doesn't say "not a lad." He responds to someone who says "You're a good lad" with "Not actually. Either. But thank you!" This isn't a "not a girl!" hat-tip.
because God in this universe is a woman
#1: Crowley refutes the statement that he's a "lad" because Crowley is not male. There isn't "evidence" of gender fuckery; Crowley has always been genderfluid (note female-gendered hair and raiments at the Crucifixion, Nanny Ashtoreth, etc.) Gaiman has talked about this multiple times, that Crowley is not a man because he's not human. He even addressed the "not a lad" joke specifically.
#2: If your theory of "Crowley = memory-wiped God" were true, Crowley wouldn't make the "Not actually. Either" joke because he wouldn't know that he wasn't a lad, because... memory wipe. This just loops back in on itself.
posted by tzikeh at 7:25 PM on August 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
He doesn't say "not a lad." He responds to someone who says "You're a good lad" with "Not actually. Either. But thank you!" This isn't a "not a girl!" hat-tip.
What I thought of was the much older Star Trek line with Uhura responding to being addressed as "fair maiden" with, "sorry, neither!"
posted by Karmakaze at 10:18 AM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
What I thought of was the much older Star Trek line with Uhura responding to being addressed as "fair maiden" with, "sorry, neither!"
posted by Karmakaze at 10:18 AM on August 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Gaiman just dropped an interesting clarification about whether or not he has changed what he and Pratchett planned for Crowley's and Aziraphale's relationship in the unwritten sequel.
posted by thomas j wise at 6:13 PM on August 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by thomas j wise at 6:13 PM on August 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Here’s where I’m stuck: in the Job story, we see and hear Job being directly spoken to by God Herself. We do not meet the Metatron at this time, so I assumed he wasn’t part of this show’s lore. The whole point of the Metatron is that humans cannot withstand the awesome power of God’s own voice (thank you Kevin Smith), so like what was even happening here? Until we see him in the records of the meeting with the other archangels where Gabriel rebelled, we haven’t ever seen the Metatron before, nor have we heard him speak as God. This strikes me as very meaningful. Also, the Metatron seems entirely onboard with bringing on Armageddon, so he’s not like, a ‘good’ guy exactly.
It’s ineffable.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:02 AM on August 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s ineffable.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:02 AM on August 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
It’s also only recently occurred to me how similar Dogma is to Good Omens. I don’t mean to besmirch either of them. I’m happy to live in a world that contains both.
posted by wabbittwax at 8:04 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 8:04 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Wabbittwax, Metatron was seen in Season 1 episode 4 as a "big head" when Aziraphale tries to reach God to discuss the AntiChrist and upcoming war. And Metatron's speech there is that of someone looking to win a war, not avoid it.
Job, Moses and others in the Bible speak directly with God; I don't believe Metatron as the "voice of God" is actually a Biblical role but GO2 has a theology of its own making.
posted by beaning at 9:58 AM on August 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
Job, Moses and others in the Bible speak directly with God; I don't believe Metatron as the "voice of God" is actually a Biblical role but GO2 has a theology of its own making.
posted by beaning at 9:58 AM on August 8, 2023 [3 favorites]
And thanks for the reminder re Alan Rickman as Metatron in Dogma, that was a fun little Youtube dive of clips.
posted by beaning at 10:14 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by beaning at 10:14 AM on August 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
On Metatron - I think the Biblical canon is actually a little vague about Metatron's role. Metatron is "God's voice," yeah, but it's unclear whether that's meant as Kevin Smith depicts in Dogma (i.e., that man would be killed if he heard God's actual voice), or if that just means Metatron is God's spokesperson or something.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:04 PM on August 8, 2023
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 11:04 PM on August 8, 2023
Ah. I see. My problem is, I hear Alan Rickman say … anything at all really, and I just believe it.
posted by wabbittwax at 4:08 AM on August 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 4:08 AM on August 9, 2023 [3 favorites]
My problem is, I hear Alan Rickman say … anything at all really, and I just believe it.
That's honestly what I thought too, I literally had to go look Metatron up on Wikipedia to see if the Biblical canon backed him up - and it didn't. :-)
It's kind of a funny example - and a potential future forecast - of how literature actually can occupy and affect what the layman takes to be Scriptural Canon. A lot of the lore around fallen angels, hell, the antiChrist, etc. is actually from Milton's Paradise Lost, and a lot of the imagery about "the Rapture" is actually from religious writings in the late 1800s and not in the Bible at all. The thing about Metatron being God's Voice because God would make people's heads explode if God spoke directly is something similar.
And who knows, maybe in 100 years there will be people absolutely swearing that the Bible says the snake from the Garden of Eden was named Crowley and stayed on Earth to get brunch with an angel now and then.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:57 AM on August 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
That's honestly what I thought too, I literally had to go look Metatron up on Wikipedia to see if the Biblical canon backed him up - and it didn't. :-)
It's kind of a funny example - and a potential future forecast - of how literature actually can occupy and affect what the layman takes to be Scriptural Canon. A lot of the lore around fallen angels, hell, the antiChrist, etc. is actually from Milton's Paradise Lost, and a lot of the imagery about "the Rapture" is actually from religious writings in the late 1800s and not in the Bible at all. The thing about Metatron being God's Voice because God would make people's heads explode if God spoke directly is something similar.
And who knows, maybe in 100 years there will be people absolutely swearing that the Bible says the snake from the Garden of Eden was named Crowley and stayed on Earth to get brunch with an angel now and then.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:57 AM on August 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
> Can't go wrong with letting Derek Jacobi do Affably Evil.
I most recently saw him in "Vicious", as Ian McKellen's long-suffering boyfriend, so this was an entertaining change of pace.
posted by Pronoiac at 7:26 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
I most recently saw him in "Vicious", as Ian McKellen's long-suffering boyfriend, so this was an entertaining change of pace.
posted by Pronoiac at 7:26 PM on August 17, 2023 [3 favorites]
As a KSBD fan I have to say all I could think of in the final episode was METATRON LIVES
posted by q*ben at 8:44 PM on August 17, 2023
posted by q*ben at 8:44 PM on August 17, 2023
I liked this okay, I guess, but it felt a little overstuffed and fan-servicey.
The acting was great. Jon Hamm was having a blast.
I liked the small nod to Iain Banks.
Beelzebub got way hotter once she/he/they/them/it was on Earth. I guess Hell's climate is bad for the complexion.
I love the way Crowley walks. It's a sort of loose limbed, hasn't-quite-figured-out-how-knees-work swagger.
But despite all of that, it didn't leave much of an impression. It was just sort of... fine. Sometimes fine is good enough and I certainly didn't object to it, but I was hoping for a little more than just fine.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 9:44 AM on August 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
The acting was great. Jon Hamm was having a blast.
I liked the small nod to Iain Banks.
Beelzebub got way hotter once she/he/they/them/it was on Earth. I guess Hell's climate is bad for the complexion.
I love the way Crowley walks. It's a sort of loose limbed, hasn't-quite-figured-out-how-knees-work swagger.
But despite all of that, it didn't leave much of an impression. It was just sort of... fine. Sometimes fine is good enough and I certainly didn't object to it, but I was hoping for a little more than just fine.
posted by It's Never Lurgi at 9:44 AM on August 19, 2023 [3 favorites]
"I liked the small nod to Iain Banks."
Me too. I found it interesting that it was a straight fiction callout ("Ian Banks") and not a science-fiction callout ("Ian M. Banks")
And I'm still chuckling over the Seamstress Guild representation.
posted by jeporter99 at 8:00 AM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
Me too. I found it interesting that it was a straight fiction callout ("Ian Banks") and not a science-fiction callout ("Ian M. Banks")
And I'm still chuckling over the Seamstress Guild representation.
posted by jeporter99 at 8:00 AM on August 20, 2023 [2 favorites]
I liked this counterpoint on tumblr to the "Crowley must have been a high ranking angel because he knew a high-rank angelic password" theory:
But consider who he is as a demon. He's not a duke or lord of hell, but he's got more sway than demons like Furfur (and not just because that's how he walks). He's acquired the maximum amount of freedom he can get with the minimum amount of responsibility.
I could see him being the same kind of angel, assuming he remained an angel for some time after the opening scene of Good Omens 2. Once the shine wore off and he realised he was powerless to change things, he could have just loitered within the perimeter of power without the inconvenience of being seen as powerful. I can see him as the angelic equivalent of somebody from the IT department who managed to procure a lot of very sensitive company secrets simply because nobody thought about him enough to restrict him properly. A little bit of 'Tell you what, give me the password and I can finish that for you. No, no, it's no bother at all. Off you trot!' here and there just to hoard for himself some semblance of power without having to do very much.
posted by creepygirl at 11:34 PM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
But consider who he is as a demon. He's not a duke or lord of hell, but he's got more sway than demons like Furfur (and not just because that's how he walks). He's acquired the maximum amount of freedom he can get with the minimum amount of responsibility.
I could see him being the same kind of angel, assuming he remained an angel for some time after the opening scene of Good Omens 2. Once the shine wore off and he realised he was powerless to change things, he could have just loitered within the perimeter of power without the inconvenience of being seen as powerful. I can see him as the angelic equivalent of somebody from the IT department who managed to procure a lot of very sensitive company secrets simply because nobody thought about him enough to restrict him properly. A little bit of 'Tell you what, give me the password and I can finish that for you. No, no, it's no bother at all. Off you trot!' here and there just to hoard for himself some semblance of power without having to do very much.
posted by creepygirl at 11:34 PM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Just finished this (I was going to wait for my next free prime trial, but that isn't until November and I just could not) and I am become mush on the couch right now. I liked the novel when I read it for the first time in the 2000s, I liked Season 1 fine, and I loved this. I agree it felt like fanfiction -- I think fic and fannish stuff always feel like additional dimensions to a much-loved story and/or characters, maybe you don't NEED it but it's fun and makes the whole thing feel so much deeper and wider. Nebulas within nebulas! Ack! I know this is a bridge to season 3 but I feel like I could watch plenty more Aziraphale and Crowley adventuring or just drinking throughout history episodes. I am very overjoyed right now.
(Also whoever originally linked to that FAQ roundup for Tumblr questions in the previous season fanfare page, I love you.)
Re: Nazi Zombies, I watch everything with the captions on, and Herr Glozier calls Aziraphale a "fegulah" (supposedly Yiddish word or slur for homosexual, or "little bird" -- altho all that is according to Google), and says how the taste of brains remind him of "chopped liver." Is this supposed to be a Thing? Or a thing within a thing? Double/triple agents? Putting aside that whole thing that I am not even sure is a thing, I am entranced by the idea of little bird, and a sparrow not falling without God's knowledge.
posted by pepper bird at 11:22 AM on September 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
(Also whoever originally linked to that FAQ roundup for Tumblr questions in the previous season fanfare page, I love you.)
Re: Nazi Zombies, I watch everything with the captions on, and Herr Glozier calls Aziraphale a "fegulah" (supposedly Yiddish word or slur for homosexual, or "little bird" -- altho all that is according to Google), and says how the taste of brains remind him of "chopped liver." Is this supposed to be a Thing? Or a thing within a thing? Double/triple agents? Putting aside that whole thing that I am not even sure is a thing, I am entranced by the idea of little bird, and a sparrow not falling without God's knowledge.
posted by pepper bird at 11:22 AM on September 26, 2023 [2 favorites]
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What I'm still not sure about is how I feel about the ending. Assuming there is no third season, I think I'll be dissatisfied in a way I wasn't with the first.
posted by wierdo at 12:57 AM on July 29, 2023 [5 favorites]