Loki: Heart of the TVA
October 27, 2023 2:11 AM - Season 2, Episode 4 - Subscribe
"I promise you this will make sense."
The TVA's Loom nears catastrophic failure, but Loki, Mobius and Sylvie have a He Who Remains variant.
The TVA's Loom nears catastrophic failure, but Loki, Mobius and Sylvie have a He Who Remains variant.
Laughed when O.B. revealed his “shoddy and slapdash” model. At least he had time to get one coat of paint on it, unlike Doc Brown: “Please excuse the crudity of this model…”
posted by mikepop at 4:13 AM on October 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
posted by mikepop at 4:13 AM on October 27, 2023 [10 favorites]
I was expecting that Loki was the one who pruned himself circling back to the first episode. I was not expecting the way this episode ended.
posted by Fleebnork at 4:22 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Fleebnork at 4:22 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
All right, NOW you have my attention!
It's a shame about the Miss Minutes actress because she's been killing it (ha!) these past few episodes. Who knew a cartoon clock could be so menacing?
Also, did I see a peep of Evil Loki in the pie room? "We are gods." Oooh you rascal, what are you up to?
I can see how Victor Timely's end might scar some kids. That was pretty disturbing.
posted by orrnyereg at 5:31 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a shame about the Miss Minutes actress because she's been killing it (ha!) these past few episodes. Who knew a cartoon clock could be so menacing?
Also, did I see a peep of Evil Loki in the pie room? "We are gods." Oooh you rascal, what are you up to?
I can see how Victor Timely's end might scar some kids. That was pretty disturbing.
posted by orrnyereg at 5:31 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
That was *much* better than the last week’s. I had nearly made the decision to just stop watching Loki when someone whose opinions I trust posted on social media about liking this episode.
I’m still bothered by watching Majors onscreen, and there were a couple of moments where my mind went straight to the allegations against him. I’m hoping that Timely stays dead and that’s the last we’ll see of Majors, but I suspect that they’ll timey-whimey him back into existence.
I was surprised by Renslayer’s death, but it seems unlikely that’s the last of her. I was kinda hoping she’d either turn out to be a Kang variant, or that the original 60s backstory would be integrated into the show, but I guess not. Just being the Louis-Alexandre Berthier to Kang’s Napoleon is a bit boring, to be honest.
So, I’ll be watching next week’s episode the day it drops, and hopefully the show’s righted itself.
posted by Kattullus at 6:23 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’m still bothered by watching Majors onscreen, and there were a couple of moments where my mind went straight to the allegations against him. I’m hoping that Timely stays dead and that’s the last we’ll see of Majors, but I suspect that they’ll timey-whimey him back into existence.
I was surprised by Renslayer’s death, but it seems unlikely that’s the last of her. I was kinda hoping she’d either turn out to be a Kang variant, or that the original 60s backstory would be integrated into the show, but I guess not. Just being the Louis-Alexandre Berthier to Kang’s Napoleon is a bit boring, to be honest.
So, I’ll be watching next week’s episode the day it drops, and hopefully the show’s righted itself.
posted by Kattullus at 6:23 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Given that all of existence just went *poof*--or seemed to--the universe being (presumably) rebooted would be a great time to switch up archvillains, although the season's Wikipedia article says that this season was the first MCU production to not have additional photography.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:46 AM on October 27, 2023
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:46 AM on October 27, 2023
It's a shame about the Miss Minutes actress
So I just googled Tara Strong, and ugh.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:09 AM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
So I just googled Tara Strong, and ugh.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:09 AM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also, did I see a peep of Evil Loki in the pie room? "We are gods." Oooh you rascal, what are you up to?
"But they are gods," was absolutely the first thing I thought after Sylvie's line. By MCU terminology, Thor, Odin, Loki, Hercules, Zeus, etc are referred to as gods.
posted by Karmakaze at 2:28 PM on October 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
"But they are gods," was absolutely the first thing I thought after Sylvie's line. By MCU terminology, Thor, Odin, Loki, Hercules, Zeus, etc are referred to as gods.
posted by Karmakaze at 2:28 PM on October 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was not expecting the way this episode ended.
With the End of All Things? Yeah, I guess maybe Feige looked at the notes about the small stakes in a lot of MCU TV episodes and thought, yeah, we can go bigger here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:38 PM on October 27, 2023
With the End of All Things? Yeah, I guess maybe Feige looked at the notes about the small stakes in a lot of MCU TV episodes and thought, yeah, we can go bigger here.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 2:38 PM on October 27, 2023
I would love it if they "leaked" episode five early and it was just 40 minutes of blank black screen and then the credits.
posted by Karmakaze at 2:42 PM on October 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Karmakaze at 2:42 PM on October 27, 2023 [8 favorites]
The music over the closing credits is just lovely. Serene and eerie, it sets to tone perfectly.
posted by orrnyereg at 5:12 PM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by orrnyereg at 5:12 PM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ouroboros mentions to Timely that with more resources, Timely “would have been bigger than Einstein.”
In the 1893 that Timely has just arrived from, Einstein is a fourteen-year-old high school student, so maybe this is not the most illuminating simile.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:01 PM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
In the 1893 that Timely has just arrived from, Einstein is a fourteen-year-old high school student, so maybe this is not the most illuminating simile.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:01 PM on October 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
One of the many things that bugged me about Timely as a character is that he’s anachronistic in a lot of easy to catch ways. To give an example, in the last episode he used the term “science fiction”, decades before it was coined. I thought at first it would turn out he was already time traveling, but no, it’s just sloppy writing.
posted by Kattullus at 10:59 PM on October 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 10:59 PM on October 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
The Oxford English Dictionary lists two examples of the term science-fiction being used in English in 1851 and 1881. The 1893 World's Columbian Exposition (i.e. the World's Fair) was held in Chicago in 1893. I don't think that 1893 Timely's use of the phrase is anachronistic.
What other features of Timely's character have struck you as anachronistic?
posted by skoosh at 11:22 PM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
What other features of Timely's character have struck you as anachronistic?
posted by skoosh at 11:22 PM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
He uses it in sense 3, not in the older sense 1. Though I’ll admit that I’m surprised that it was used before 1920 in that sense. 1898 is close enough to 1893 that I retract my objection.
posted by Kattullus at 1:01 AM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 1:01 AM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oh, and I forgot to answer the question.
There were just phrases he used which seemed really off, especially compared to the language of the other characters temporally native to 1893, another one I remember is that he says “adjust the settings” at one point. That’s why I thought it would turn out he was a time traveler. Though I suppose that could be explained if that’s a phrase used by OB in the TVA Handbook.
posted by Kattullus at 1:23 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
There were just phrases he used which seemed really off, especially compared to the language of the other characters temporally native to 1893, another one I remember is that he says “adjust the settings” at one point. That’s why I thought it would turn out he was a time traveler. Though I suppose that could be explained if that’s a phrase used by OB in the TVA Handbook.
posted by Kattullus at 1:23 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm with Katallus. Even in the 1920s Hugo Gernsback was using "Scientifiction" in Amazing Stories, which popularised the genre in its current form. There's no way an 1893 audience would understand the sense that Victor Timely was using "Science Fiction" and it stuck out to me as an anachronism.
Otherwise a good episode with some refreshing actual plot movement. Though I suspect a lot of it is going to be undone with some timey-wimey stuff. Too many deaths for them to all stay dead.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:42 AM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
Otherwise a good episode with some refreshing actual plot movement. Though I suspect a lot of it is going to be undone with some timey-wimey stuff. Too many deaths for them to all stay dead.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:42 AM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was surprised by Renslayer’s death, but it seems unlikely that’s the last of her.
Doesn’t getting pruned just send you to the end of time? You know, the same place she was at the beginning of the episode? (And probably the safest place to ride out a Temporal Loom explosion.)
posted by ejs at 5:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Doesn’t getting pruned just send you to the end of time? You know, the same place she was at the beginning of the episode? (And probably the safest place to ride out a Temporal Loom explosion.)
posted by ejs at 5:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also anachronistic: saying “Ok”. He does this several times.
posted by orrnyereg at 5:23 AM on October 28, 2023
posted by orrnyereg at 5:23 AM on October 28, 2023
"OK" was coined in the 19th century. Also he was on a branch timeline, so who knows what that history was or wasn't?
I found his character hard to get a handle on and affected, not to mention that the actor has made the whole business unpleasant.
Pruned people and things go to the netherworld we saw last season and usually eventually get eaten by a smoke monster.
posted by emjaybee at 6:26 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I found his character hard to get a handle on and affected, not to mention that the actor has made the whole business unpleasant.
Pruned people and things go to the netherworld we saw last season and usually eventually get eaten by a smoke monster.
posted by emjaybee at 6:26 AM on October 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
That was some horrible and effective foley work on those Minutemen being crushed, yikes. Possibly the most awful moment in the MCU to date? It struck me as unusually appalling, anyhow.
posted by merriment at 11:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by merriment at 11:13 AM on October 28, 2023 [6 favorites]
Yeah, that was pretty dark for the MCU. I think big moves like that are why this episode worked - but so many characters being used as literal grist to show off MM and Renslayer’s capability for evil says to me that both of them will be back shortly for a rematch.
The repeated use of the hot chocolate / soup machine as a plot point was a surprise.
posted by q*ben at 4:02 PM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
The repeated use of the hot chocolate / soup machine as a plot point was a surprise.
posted by q*ben at 4:02 PM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
I remember thinking as I watched it, with the sounds and the reaction shots, knowing roughly a dozen people were crushed to death within a single box, that this was a death that even in the wake of the horrors of Guardians 3, Disney would never show any little bit of. They couldn't. And I was sure glad they didn't. The reaction shots were enough.
posted by Mister Moofoo at 4:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Mister Moofoo at 4:07 PM on October 28, 2023 [2 favorites]
The worst thing about that scene is how gleeful Miss Minutes looks.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:30 PM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:30 PM on October 28, 2023 [19 favorites]
Laughed when O.B. revealed his “shoddy and slapdash” model
Yep yep yep; and also it felt like Miss Minutes' finger-waggy ah-ah-ah lockout was very much an echo of Nedry locking down the computers in Jurassic Park.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yep yep yep; and also it felt like Miss Minutes' finger-waggy ah-ah-ah lockout was very much an echo of Nedry locking down the computers in Jurassic Park.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:07 PM on October 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
- Current questions that need to be addressed: (in no particular order)
- WELL WHAT THE HELL HAPPENS now !?!?
- --
- If not to prune the branching Timelines - what can the TVA do to promote Order and prevent Time Chaos?
- We have yet to see any evidence that a He Who Remains invasion is, in-fact imminent. Is it?
- Who were B-15 and Mobius before they became TVA Agents and how long ago was that ?
- How old is OB ?
- Who was OB before the TVA?
What was the agenda of the TVA military splinter group? (Let's call them the TVA-b)Welp I guess that's irrelevant now!Who wanded / obliterated Loki during the first episode?Was it a future version of a Loki himself? (There are some visual clues to this but they might be misdirections.)Why was the phone ringing at the TVA in front of the elevator that Sylvie climbed out of? Who was making the call?What is the BIG SECRET that Miss minutes knows about Raveanna ?
posted by Faintdreams at 9:32 AM on October 30, 2023
I suspect Timely bring torn apart by the time radiation is how Kang variants get dispersed across all the different timelines. If so, then maybe this is how He Who Remains creates himself, not so much with a Sacred Timeline but a Sacred Time Loop (with some fuzzy multiversal shenanigans along the way)? My personal theory is that season 2 ends up at the same End of Time setup as season 1, but with Loki needing to convince Sophie to do something other then kill HWR (or take over the TVA) in order to break the loop.
posted by bassooner at 12:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by bassooner at 12:47 PM on October 30, 2023 [3 favorites]
The worst thing about that scene is how gleeful Miss Minutes looks.
It is given some competition at a meta-level by several days of viewers treating images from their own imagination as something they were eyewitness to. I see articles collecting social media reactions where people are declaring they are done with the MCU because of the "graphic violence" we see in this episode. That's not what "graphic" means, but okay. It's basically a radio play for That Scene.
And weirdly, these same folks do not seem to mention any reaction to seeing Victor Timely, a basically sympathetic character, get reduced to ribbons onscreen.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
It is given some competition at a meta-level by several days of viewers treating images from their own imagination as something they were eyewitness to. I see articles collecting social media reactions where people are declaring they are done with the MCU because of the "graphic violence" we see in this episode. That's not what "graphic" means, but okay. It's basically a radio play for That Scene.
And weirdly, these same folks do not seem to mention any reaction to seeing Victor Timely, a basically sympathetic character, get reduced to ribbons onscreen.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:03 PM on October 30, 2023 [1 favorite]
Hang on. If Loki pruned himself, who was it that got yeeted out of the Loom in Episode 1?
posted by orrnyereg at 5:30 AM on November 1, 2023
posted by orrnyereg at 5:30 AM on November 1, 2023
The answer is Loki.
All is Loki.
Loki.
posted by Faintdreams at 6:18 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
All is Loki.
Loki.
posted by Faintdreams at 6:18 AM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
In all seriousness, this is a show about time travel where it's about time travel but (seriously) *don't poke too hard at the time travel* because.. well just enjoy the vibe hmmkay?
posted by Faintdreams at 6:19 AM on November 1, 2023
posted by Faintdreams at 6:19 AM on November 1, 2023
I still am not liking this season but this was better. And to my own rule, I have something insightful (if still complaining) to say, so here I am on Fanfare.
Why is this show called Loki? Why is Loki in it? Is this character in any meaningful way Loki?
The first season was MCU Loki, him grappling with his history and character and trying to stop being Evil Loki. It hung heavily on previous Loki stories while standing alone as a TVA story.
This season it's... Hiddleston running around as a generic man? Doing very little Loki stuff? And he's got a sidekick named Sylvie that he's clearly had previous conflicts with but there's nothing here about Sylvie actually being Loki too. It's like they wanted to bring back both actors so of course they took the characters along, but they've lost the characters. I liked the few Loki-specific bits here. They turned magic back on in the TVA, that could be fun! Loki's great line about "well we are gods". But those were tiny bits. I would like more Loki. (Honestly I'd like more Hiddleston; he feels very underutilized to me.)
This season is much more about Kang the Conqueror as a person and how Victor Timely got to be Kang. With some interesting writing for B-15, Renslayer, Miss Minutes, and some fun new characters in OB, Gamble, Dox. The TVA gang and their hijinx. Loki and Sylvie and Mobius are just kind of along for the ride?
Bonus thought: so if OB is Ouroboros, who is KC? Delicious if it's something more than "Casey", although "Kang Conqueror" would be awfully on the nose.
posted by Nelson at 6:22 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Why is this show called Loki? Why is Loki in it? Is this character in any meaningful way Loki?
The first season was MCU Loki, him grappling with his history and character and trying to stop being Evil Loki. It hung heavily on previous Loki stories while standing alone as a TVA story.
This season it's... Hiddleston running around as a generic man? Doing very little Loki stuff? And he's got a sidekick named Sylvie that he's clearly had previous conflicts with but there's nothing here about Sylvie actually being Loki too. It's like they wanted to bring back both actors so of course they took the characters along, but they've lost the characters. I liked the few Loki-specific bits here. They turned magic back on in the TVA, that could be fun! Loki's great line about "well we are gods". But those were tiny bits. I would like more Loki. (Honestly I'd like more Hiddleston; he feels very underutilized to me.)
This season is much more about Kang the Conqueror as a person and how Victor Timely got to be Kang. With some interesting writing for B-15, Renslayer, Miss Minutes, and some fun new characters in OB, Gamble, Dox. The TVA gang and their hijinx. Loki and Sylvie and Mobius are just kind of along for the ride?
Bonus thought: so if OB is Ouroboros, who is KC? Delicious if it's something more than "Casey", although "Kang Conqueror" would be awfully on the nose.
posted by Nelson at 6:22 AM on November 1, 2023 [8 favorites]
Hang on. If Loki pruned himself, who was it that got yeeted out of the Loom in Episode 1?
I thought the whole setup was that to fix from bouncing rapidly/painfully between two moments in time he needed to be pruned at precisely the right "moment" (when the device turns green) so the loom could catch his disembodied/dischronic self and spit him back out. He was supposed to prune himself, wasn't going to be able to in time, and then luckily got pruned by someone offscreen, who we now see was his future self, since we've just caught up to the future moment Loki had been bouncing to/from uncontrollably in the first episode.
And since the time loom stands outside time and gathers strands of time, I don't think there's any need to worry about why being pruned in this future had him rescued from the loom in the past. The past is just when they did whatever tech thing they were doing to pluck his disembodied/dischonic self from the pruned, timeless ether.
Unclear whether the device turning green at the same (from our TV-watching perspective) time in the episode 1 past and the this-episode present was timetravel storytelling sleight of hand or if the present emergency just provided the same conditions they were relying on in the episode-1 past to make the light turn green. (Pretty slick if the latter, but I'd bet they don't bother dwelling on it.)
posted by nobody at 7:17 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I thought the whole setup was that to fix from bouncing rapidly/painfully between two moments in time he needed to be pruned at precisely the right "moment" (when the device turns green) so the loom could catch his disembodied/dischronic self and spit him back out. He was supposed to prune himself, wasn't going to be able to in time, and then luckily got pruned by someone offscreen, who we now see was his future self, since we've just caught up to the future moment Loki had been bouncing to/from uncontrollably in the first episode.
And since the time loom stands outside time and gathers strands of time, I don't think there's any need to worry about why being pruned in this future had him rescued from the loom in the past. The past is just when they did whatever tech thing they were doing to pluck his disembodied/dischonic self from the pruned, timeless ether.
Unclear whether the device turning green at the same (from our TV-watching perspective) time in the episode 1 past and the this-episode present was timetravel storytelling sleight of hand or if the present emergency just provided the same conditions they were relying on in the episode-1 past to make the light turn green. (Pretty slick if the latter, but I'd bet they don't bother dwelling on it.)
posted by nobody at 7:17 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
Addendum to unanswered questions - What the hell does Miss Minutes even want now? Apart from torturing people?
She (it?) can't get their 'original' Kang back. He is definitively dead - so .. what is she working towards? - Assuming of course that any of this even matters after the events of episode 4..
posted by Faintdreams at 7:34 AM on November 1, 2023
She (it?) can't get their 'original' Kang back. He is definitively dead - so .. what is she working towards? - Assuming of course that any of this even matters after the events of episode 4..
posted by Faintdreams at 7:34 AM on November 1, 2023
Not gonna lie, there are only two more episodes left, and I am Excite.. but also concerned..
posted by Faintdreams at 7:35 AM on November 1, 2023
posted by Faintdreams at 7:35 AM on November 1, 2023
This is kind of tangential to Loki the show, but Variety has published an interesting piece on Marvel's current troubles which touches on Loki and Jonathan Major's role in the future of the MCU.
posted by whir at 9:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by whir at 9:20 PM on November 1, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Variety article mentions possibly recasting Majors and this seems like the easiest out for Marvel. As clearly illustrated by the Loki series itself, a variant can take many forms — including an alligator! Plenty of other actors to choose from.
posted by mikepop at 6:46 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by mikepop at 6:46 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I really hope they recast him, I’m finding it hard to watch his scenes.
posted by ellieBOA at 9:59 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ellieBOA at 9:59 AM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
Plus there's the Rhodey example. Recast him and don't say anything about it in-universe. I think most people would agree that Don Cheadle was a huge upgrade over Terence Howard.
posted by orrnyereg at 12:03 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by orrnyereg at 12:03 PM on November 2, 2023 [1 favorite]
I would love it if they "leaked" episode five early and it was just 40 minutes of blank black screen and then the credits.
...and then the finale episode six never arrives with no explanation.
My viewing partner and I were this close to cutting our losses and quitting after episode three - - this might be the only way to save this season in our opinion.
posted by fairmettle at 11:37 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
...and then the finale episode six never arrives with no explanation.
My viewing partner and I were this close to cutting our losses and quitting after episode three - - this might be the only way to save this season in our opinion.
posted by fairmettle at 11:37 PM on November 2, 2023 [2 favorites]
Why is this show called Loki? Why is Loki in it? Is this character in any meaningful way Loki?
The first season was MCU Loki, him grappling with his history and character and trying to stop being Evil Loki. It hung heavily on previous Loki stories while standing alone as a TVA story.
Clearly the answer to this is that Hiddleston is hugely charismatic and has a large fan base that wants to watch him run around making Loki-style quips.
You’re not wrong though.
posted by bq at 8:42 AM on November 19, 2023
The first season was MCU Loki, him grappling with his history and character and trying to stop being Evil Loki. It hung heavily on previous Loki stories while standing alone as a TVA story.
Clearly the answer to this is that Hiddleston is hugely charismatic and has a large fan base that wants to watch him run around making Loki-style quips.
You’re not wrong though.
posted by bq at 8:42 AM on November 19, 2023
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posted by Faintdreams at 2:11 AM on October 27, 2023 [1 favorite]