The Holdovers (2023)
October 31, 2023 9:02 PM - Subscribe
A cranky history teacher at a prep school is forced to remain on campus over the holidays with students who have no family plans. In select theaters, wider release Nov 10
Review by Liz Shannon Miller:
As an intimate character study that doesn’t pander and doesn’t over-explain, The Holdovers still proves touching and even profound at points.
Review by Lindsey Bahr:
But the true discovery is Sessa, making his film debut. They found him in the drama department at one of their shooting locations, Deerfield Academy. Casting modern teens in period pieces can be a tricky art, but Sessa somehow looks straight out of 1969. And he goes head-to-head with his seasoned co-stars, exhibiting a real capacity for both drama and physical comedy.
Alexander Payne interview by Anne Thompson
About casting Dominic Sessa: As the movie’s start-date loomed, Payne worried that he hadn’t found the obnoxious, entitled, bereft prep school guy whose newly married mother and stepfather leave him behind for their holiday honeymoon. The New York-based casting director went through some 800 submissions. “We didn’t find this character,” said Payne. “Finally, we got around to something we were going to do anyway, even out of politeness. I always try to cast in the locations where we’re shooting. And so we called up the drama departments of the schools and talked to the drama teachers: ‘Oh, yes, we have some students who would be be happy to audition for your movie!’ And there he was. [He needed to be] believable, interesting, able, and ultimately, possess a face of someone whom you would like to see cured, helped, if not saved, by the story that this movie is telling. Finding him, and at the last minute — because if you didn’t nail that part, then the movie is going to suck or you can’t make the movie — was a minor miracle.”
Article by Svetlana Deshpande in the Deerfield (boarding school) newspaper about Dominic Sessa:
This past winter, Sessa had the opportunity to work on the set of the upcoming movie, The Holdovers. Comparing this experience to acting in Deerfield productions, Sessa said, “I was very nervous going in because I’ve never done any acting on film before. All I’ve ever done is live performance.”
How the Writer of The Holdovers Channeled his Upbringing for His First Feature Film Script by Rebecca Ford
He spent six years at the school, but coming from a blue-collar background, he always felt a bit like an outsider. “I wanted to capture both the grandeur and the Currier & Ives sugar-frosted thing, but also the inequality and the privilege and the silent codes that are run almost like software, that people never deviate from,” he says.'
Review by Mark Hanson:
The Holdovers is ultimately a story about the absence of family, and as the film watches these three individuals come together and apart, it’s subtly attuned to the way that class constricts people’s lives.
Review by Mick LaSalle
Here and there, there are moments when the energy dips, but what carries the film from scene to scene are the truthful performances and the genuineness of the storytelling. There are no fake arguments or transparent plot devices inserted to create tension, just a steady series of incidents that cause the characters to slowly change.
Review by Olivia Rutigliano:
It is a pentathlon of a film, a mesmerizing, near nonstop parade of achievements; not in a long time have I watched a film that succeeds so well in combining hysteria with pathos, nostalgia with cynicism, solemnity with irreverence. It’s the best holiday movie since Elf, that’s for sure.
Review by David Sims in The Atlantic (Archive link):
A few belly laughs abound, but it’s the deep care for its characters that makes The Holdovers really sing.
Review by Liz Shannon Miller:
As an intimate character study that doesn’t pander and doesn’t over-explain, The Holdovers still proves touching and even profound at points.
Review by Lindsey Bahr:
But the true discovery is Sessa, making his film debut. They found him in the drama department at one of their shooting locations, Deerfield Academy. Casting modern teens in period pieces can be a tricky art, but Sessa somehow looks straight out of 1969. And he goes head-to-head with his seasoned co-stars, exhibiting a real capacity for both drama and physical comedy.
Alexander Payne interview by Anne Thompson
About casting Dominic Sessa: As the movie’s start-date loomed, Payne worried that he hadn’t found the obnoxious, entitled, bereft prep school guy whose newly married mother and stepfather leave him behind for their holiday honeymoon. The New York-based casting director went through some 800 submissions. “We didn’t find this character,” said Payne. “Finally, we got around to something we were going to do anyway, even out of politeness. I always try to cast in the locations where we’re shooting. And so we called up the drama departments of the schools and talked to the drama teachers: ‘Oh, yes, we have some students who would be be happy to audition for your movie!’ And there he was. [He needed to be] believable, interesting, able, and ultimately, possess a face of someone whom you would like to see cured, helped, if not saved, by the story that this movie is telling. Finding him, and at the last minute — because if you didn’t nail that part, then the movie is going to suck or you can’t make the movie — was a minor miracle.”
Article by Svetlana Deshpande in the Deerfield (boarding school) newspaper about Dominic Sessa:
This past winter, Sessa had the opportunity to work on the set of the upcoming movie, The Holdovers. Comparing this experience to acting in Deerfield productions, Sessa said, “I was very nervous going in because I’ve never done any acting on film before. All I’ve ever done is live performance.”
How the Writer of The Holdovers Channeled his Upbringing for His First Feature Film Script by Rebecca Ford
He spent six years at the school, but coming from a blue-collar background, he always felt a bit like an outsider. “I wanted to capture both the grandeur and the Currier & Ives sugar-frosted thing, but also the inequality and the privilege and the silent codes that are run almost like software, that people never deviate from,” he says.'
Review by Mark Hanson:
The Holdovers is ultimately a story about the absence of family, and as the film watches these three individuals come together and apart, it’s subtly attuned to the way that class constricts people’s lives.
Review by Mick LaSalle
Here and there, there are moments when the energy dips, but what carries the film from scene to scene are the truthful performances and the genuineness of the storytelling. There are no fake arguments or transparent plot devices inserted to create tension, just a steady series of incidents that cause the characters to slowly change.
Review by Olivia Rutigliano:
It is a pentathlon of a film, a mesmerizing, near nonstop parade of achievements; not in a long time have I watched a film that succeeds so well in combining hysteria with pathos, nostalgia with cynicism, solemnity with irreverence. It’s the best holiday movie since Elf, that’s for sure.
Review by David Sims in The Atlantic (Archive link):
A few belly laughs abound, but it’s the deep care for its characters that makes The Holdovers really sing.
The trailers for this film kept making me think it was going to turn out to be a sneaky adaptation of "In Which the Dead Return; and Charles Rowland Concludes His Education", from The Sandman's "Season of Mists" arc.
posted by FatherDagon at 10:40 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by FatherDagon at 10:40 AM on November 1, 2023 [2 favorites]
I liked the way the whole film builds up to Paul's decision at the end. It's the only decision he could have made, under the circumstances, but it's still a painful one for him to have to make.
posted by creepygirl at 11:12 AM on November 1, 2023
posted by creepygirl at 11:12 AM on November 1, 2023
The trailer for this was a little...off, I'd say? I couldn't tell whether it was a serious film or some Disney material aimed at teenagers, and the inclusion of Sassy Fat Black Lady Supporting Character made me lean towards the latter (as something you can't get away with so much any more in adult film). But then the review I read suggested that the trailer is misleading as to her role/character anyway.
There's a very particular feeling to lingering in one of these kinds of spaces over the holidays I know well and I wonder if the film will capture. I'm not sure it's the same for someone like the young male lead, who certainly seems to have his own problems but is also to the manor born.
posted by praemunire at 2:03 PM on November 1, 2023
There's a very particular feeling to lingering in one of these kinds of spaces over the holidays I know well and I wonder if the film will capture. I'm not sure it's the same for someone like the young male lead, who certainly seems to have his own problems but is also to the manor born.
posted by praemunire at 2:03 PM on November 1, 2023
Without getting spoilerish, while I don't think the trailer is being deliberately misleading, I don't think it gives you any real sense of the film other than the premise. I watched the movie itself first, and then the trailer, and I'm glad I did it in that order.
posted by creepygirl at 9:02 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by creepygirl at 9:02 PM on November 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've come to believe the trailer (like the MPAA rating card and the animated studio logos at the beginning) are all self-conscious homages to the 70s era the film itself is set in.
posted by How the runs scored at 7:47 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by How the runs scored at 7:47 PM on November 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
I basically want to shout about this movie. I saw it in the theater with my mom -- I think it may be popular grown-up family viewing in the future -- and I loved it so much.
Part of that is because I went to boarding school near Boston. It wasn't like Barton, although it would have been more so in the 70s. What was like Barton was being surrounded by entitled assholes, while also feeling that I was some part of an ancient tradition that didn't really exist to support people like me, just as Mr. Hunham felt -- and poor Curtis. There was in fact a young Black man a couple years after me who died in Iraq in the 2000s. He was a civilian contractor, IIRC, but even so he had no business having to be there. I cried when I heard about it, even though he was so abrasive. Even because he was abrasive and tough and bright --
Anyway. Big emotions about this movie. All kinds of emotions from all kinds of angles, down to their recreation of the Boston businesses of Downtown Crossing (the "Combat Zone" as was). Some aren't recreated because they're still there, including the Brattle Book Shop where the books stand outside. And I'm pretty sure I sold a necklace in one of those gold and coin shops.
praemunire: Mary is a supporting character, but IMO, she is much more than "Sassy Fat Black Lady." She can certainly be sassy, but the movie doesn't spare her grief. Although she recognizes grief in others and returns kindness, she doesn't bury it to be convenient to others, and she doesn't try to be a mom to the white boys.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:44 AM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Part of that is because I went to boarding school near Boston. It wasn't like Barton, although it would have been more so in the 70s. What was like Barton was being surrounded by entitled assholes, while also feeling that I was some part of an ancient tradition that didn't really exist to support people like me, just as Mr. Hunham felt -- and poor Curtis. There was in fact a young Black man a couple years after me who died in Iraq in the 2000s. He was a civilian contractor, IIRC, but even so he had no business having to be there. I cried when I heard about it, even though he was so abrasive. Even because he was abrasive and tough and bright --
Anyway. Big emotions about this movie. All kinds of emotions from all kinds of angles, down to their recreation of the Boston businesses of Downtown Crossing (the "Combat Zone" as was). Some aren't recreated because they're still there, including the Brattle Book Shop where the books stand outside. And I'm pretty sure I sold a necklace in one of those gold and coin shops.
praemunire: Mary is a supporting character, but IMO, she is much more than "Sassy Fat Black Lady." She can certainly be sassy, but the movie doesn't spare her grief. Although she recognizes grief in others and returns kindness, she doesn't bury it to be convenient to others, and she doesn't try to be a mom to the white boys.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:44 AM on November 14, 2023 [3 favorites]
Well, I have some reservations about the film, but that was a hell of a debut from Sessa.
posted by praemunire at 9:47 PM on November 15, 2023
posted by praemunire at 9:47 PM on November 15, 2023
DaVine Joy Randolph in particular should get an Oscar nomination for her acting, but Giamatti and Sessa as well were wonderful. A nuanced, interesting, intensely human film.
Side note: I bet it was really really weird acting your way through a whole movie with a prosthetic fake glass eye. Did you notice he wore it on different eyes from scene to scene? I think it was intentional, esp. considering the "which eye do I look at" bit near the end.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:19 PM on December 1, 2023
Side note: I bet it was really really weird acting your way through a whole movie with a prosthetic fake glass eye. Did you notice he wore it on different eyes from scene to scene? I think it was intentional, esp. considering the "which eye do I look at" bit near the end.
posted by mcstayinskool at 7:19 PM on December 1, 2023
A clunker. Tangled up in nostalgia without substance. Cliched characters, weirdly deployed, in service of a story line that ... exists. Felt to me like a film made by an AI trained on Dead Poets Society, The Shining, and The Big Chill.
posted by cocoagirl at 8:03 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by cocoagirl at 8:03 AM on December 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
What an amazing movie. I loved Giamatti in this, he really shows up and brings so much depth to his character. There's a lot of humanity in every kid as well, they're troubled but not just one note. Just overall a beautiful film.
posted by Carillon at 5:51 PM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Carillon at 5:51 PM on December 16, 2023 [1 favorite]
I loved it. What an empathetic, funny, kind-hearted movie. It captures the liminal space very well - I watched it between Christmas and New Year's and it was perfect for that dead week.
posted by hepta at 1:46 PM on January 1
posted by hepta at 1:46 PM on January 1
Anyone with a classics background want to theorize on the relationship between the Peloponnesian Wars and this film? I feel like it's a deliberate choice as Giamatti's character's topic of choice and the events / characters of the film, but my classics background is close to zero.
posted by catesbie at 9:24 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
posted by catesbie at 9:24 AM on January 3 [1 favorite]
I don't think there's much of one. It's a well-established signifier for "famous events in the past that the Civilized would know about and young roustabouts could not possibly care less about." There's no attempt even to parallel the experience of death and mourning in war in ancient Greece and 1970s Connecticut, which is probably for the best, all things considered.
posted by praemunire at 10:13 AM on January 3
posted by praemunire at 10:13 AM on January 3
Just saw this yesterday. It was a movie with modest goals that executed them flawlessly.
All of the actors were good, but Da'Vine Joy Randolph stood out for me. She radiates a kind of presence and dignity that dares you to underestimate her. She's a fat lady. She's Black. She's staff. She's sad. But only Kountse was stupid enough to think he could talk down to her. We get a lot of sassy don't take no guff characters in film within those spheres, but she wasn't that. She was someone so secure in the space she occupied that she defied being minimized.
Also, she seemed to be doing a very particular accent, a Boston-area/Black American of the era hybrid accent that was spot-on for the character. I love accents, and that was some nice work, placing her exactly where she should be without being showy or distracting. Sophisticated work.
I do think Giamatti has great odds of winning for this. And while it doesn't quite fit the tradition of a shaky late career performance by an acknowledged netting an Oscar as a consolation prize (hoo-ah, Al Pacino!) it isn't within his top five for me, either. I won't mind if he wins though.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:00 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
All of the actors were good, but Da'Vine Joy Randolph stood out for me. She radiates a kind of presence and dignity that dares you to underestimate her. She's a fat lady. She's Black. She's staff. She's sad. But only Kountse was stupid enough to think he could talk down to her. We get a lot of sassy don't take no guff characters in film within those spheres, but she wasn't that. She was someone so secure in the space she occupied that she defied being minimized.
Also, she seemed to be doing a very particular accent, a Boston-area/Black American of the era hybrid accent that was spot-on for the character. I love accents, and that was some nice work, placing her exactly where she should be without being showy or distracting. Sophisticated work.
I do think Giamatti has great odds of winning for this. And while it doesn't quite fit the tradition of a shaky late career performance by an acknowledged netting an Oscar as a consolation prize (hoo-ah, Al Pacino!) it isn't within his top five for me, either. I won't mind if he wins though.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:00 AM on January 25 [1 favorite]
I really liked that movie. I also thought that Da'Vine Joy Randolph was phenomenal. She perfectly captured that aspect of grief where one minute you've got everything together and the next you're completely overwhelmed by it.
I nearly skipped this because of the trailer too. It made it seem like some kind of generic comedy where the boys get up to hijinks in the holidays, but they were quickly packed off in a helicopter to leave the three-hander behind.
I liked the film look too, not actually shot on film but looked plausible to me, and loved the retro titles and crackles and spots. I guess "The Love Witch" is the last pure film movie, apparently the editing equipment isn't really around anymore, and even if you do some film shooting it has to be digitized for the edit.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:56 PM on January 25
I nearly skipped this because of the trailer too. It made it seem like some kind of generic comedy where the boys get up to hijinks in the holidays, but they were quickly packed off in a helicopter to leave the three-hander behind.
I liked the film look too, not actually shot on film but looked plausible to me, and loved the retro titles and crackles and spots. I guess "The Love Witch" is the last pure film movie, apparently the editing equipment isn't really around anymore, and even if you do some film shooting it has to be digitized for the edit.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:56 PM on January 25
Re: digital looking more "film-like"...
There were some great articles about Poker Face about how the DP on that show was one of several who had determined that the weak link in digital cinematography wasn't the physical equipment, it was the software. He'd learned to code to rewrite the onboard software to get something much more like the look of film.
I can only guess that movement has continued to pick up steam.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:02 AM on January 26 [2 favorites]
There were some great articles about Poker Face about how the DP on that show was one of several who had determined that the weak link in digital cinematography wasn't the physical equipment, it was the software. He'd learned to code to rewrite the onboard software to get something much more like the look of film.
I can only guess that movement has continued to pick up steam.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:02 AM on January 26 [2 favorites]
It was a nice movie, 100%, really well written and well directed but significantly the role of Mary is a revolution in the portrayal of black Americans in film: Mary sits outside of everything (she does not eat with them at the restaurant, (to avoid the indignity of not being served she eats before-hand) she does not eat with them when offered by Hunham - and she imbues that moment with every ounce of the inequality inherent in every aspect of their lives) but she sits outside in completeness... uhh - her character is drawn by Ms. Randolph such that the injustice of her situation is fully evident. It's like the antithesis of "Green Book" (which had amazing actors! And totally dropped the ball!) I've been thinking about it for the last 24hours. Mary Lamb is not a character I can think of having seen in other American movies.
I have to say I'm kinda gob-smacked by this. It's about fucking time.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:41 AM on January 29 [4 favorites]
I have to say I'm kinda gob-smacked by this. It's about fucking time.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:41 AM on January 29 [4 favorites]
Just watched this on a plane. I thought it was OK. If I hadn't seen or read so many films and books about the travails of boarding / prep school boys and the men who teach them in my life, it may have seemed fresh. Paul Giamatti did a fine job playing to type, and I agree with From Bklyn that Mary is a fantastic character. But otherwise I felt unmoved by what was essentially a retread of very, very well-worn territory, and didn't find myself caring about any of the characters. Even the dad-in-the-sanitarium scene, which is supposed to be extremely pivotal, felt underwhelming, and also a page from the bildungsroman playbook that has seen other, more effective uses. So, all in all, a well-made but mostly unmemorable film.
The one scene I did find compelling is when the kid runs into the gym and thoughtlessly does a flip off of the springboard. That was extremely believable and unexpected.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:33 PM on February 2 [2 favorites]
The one scene I did find compelling is when the kid runs into the gym and thoughtlessly does a flip off of the springboard. That was extremely believable and unexpected.
posted by grumpybear69 at 1:33 PM on February 2 [2 favorites]
I was probably expecting too much from this movie. It wasn't very affecting for me.
I can't think of the right words for it, but I think a problem is that Giamatti's character is not challenged really. We get some revelations about him and the kid, but we don't quite get any problems that they grapple with for more than a scene. Not even really any internal character discoveries. The teacher dude's worldview is not threatened, he's not pushed from his comfort zone. Nor do I feel like he blossoms either. The more I think about it, the more I feel like after the movie's over, that character does not write any monographs, he does not make it to Carthage.
I feel like an actual 70s movie might have shown us some joy -- and probably a dark side to the traditionalism of course lol.
Okay I'm randomly going to say I didn't like a particular scene. When the kid picks a fight in the pinball game, though that scene was pretty awful. I think I realized I just didn't care much at that point. Then the resolution of Giamatti trying to buy some beers with fancy talk and the guys being like "WHUT".. I was like, this feels like a kid's movie. But it's not even charming.
(Then later it's echoed with Giamatti's dude pontificating to Santa at the bowling alley's bar. Are we supposed to be impressed / amused / delighted by the fancy talk? Is this supposed to be lovable? Very strange.)
In the spirit of the movie I'm going to give it a C+ even if it would be nicer to give it a B-.
posted by fleacircus at 4:59 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I can't think of the right words for it, but I think a problem is that Giamatti's character is not challenged really. We get some revelations about him and the kid, but we don't quite get any problems that they grapple with for more than a scene. Not even really any internal character discoveries. The teacher dude's worldview is not threatened, he's not pushed from his comfort zone. Nor do I feel like he blossoms either. The more I think about it, the more I feel like after the movie's over, that character does not write any monographs, he does not make it to Carthage.
I feel like an actual 70s movie might have shown us some joy -- and probably a dark side to the traditionalism of course lol.
Okay I'm randomly going to say I didn't like a particular scene. When the kid picks a fight in the pinball game, though that scene was pretty awful. I think I realized I just didn't care much at that point. Then the resolution of Giamatti trying to buy some beers with fancy talk and the guys being like "WHUT".. I was like, this feels like a kid's movie. But it's not even charming.
(Then later it's echoed with Giamatti's dude pontificating to Santa at the bowling alley's bar. Are we supposed to be impressed / amused / delighted by the fancy talk? Is this supposed to be lovable? Very strange.)
In the spirit of the movie I'm going to give it a C+ even if it would be nicer to give it a B-.
posted by fleacircus at 4:59 PM on February 4 [1 favorite]
I also just watched this movie on a plane. I can understand why it didn't work for some people, but personally I was very moved. Dead Poets Society really affected me when I was young, and I think this movie addresses a lot of its shortcomings.
Then later it's echoed with Giamatti's dude pontificating to Santa at the bowling alley's bar. Are we supposed to be impressed / amused / delighted by the fancy talk? Is this supposed to be lovable?
Definitely not supposed to be impressed by Giamatti's character. Mr. Hunham consistently exhibits sympathy across race and class boundaries, yet he struggles with human connection. In particular, his standard way of expressing himself is by referencing classical ancient history, and this isolates him from most people. And I don't think were meant to think at all that this is a shortcoming on everyone else's part.
posted by Alex404 at 12:40 AM on February 19 [2 favorites]
Then later it's echoed with Giamatti's dude pontificating to Santa at the bowling alley's bar. Are we supposed to be impressed / amused / delighted by the fancy talk? Is this supposed to be lovable?
Definitely not supposed to be impressed by Giamatti's character. Mr. Hunham consistently exhibits sympathy across race and class boundaries, yet he struggles with human connection. In particular, his standard way of expressing himself is by referencing classical ancient history, and this isolates him from most people. And I don't think were meant to think at all that this is a shortcoming on everyone else's part.
posted by Alex404 at 12:40 AM on February 19 [2 favorites]
And I don't think were meant to think at all that this is a shortcoming on everyone else's part.
I would've thought this was obvious from very early on--he may have a classroom full of privileged little shits, but he is also a terrible teacher.
posted by praemunire at 9:14 AM on February 19 [1 favorite]
I would've thought this was obvious from very early on--he may have a classroom full of privileged little shits, but he is also a terrible teacher.
posted by praemunire at 9:14 AM on February 19 [1 favorite]
Definitely not supposed to be impressed
What nags me about the pontifications specifically is that they are pretty low quality, and when the movie has normies react gobsmacked and slack-jawed it makes me think the movie thinks the outbursts are a little impressive; and the way it uses them as parallel character traits (that don't change) makes me wonder if it's supposed to be comic or just some foibles and flavor though again, they are low quality. Or maybe it's a regional detail and the Boston area is just crawling with wannabe llatiwonks.
I don't think the film cares about his teaching ability very much. (If it did it would have to ask if he did a disservice to the sacred dead kid.) I think the movie does respect his principles though, and I think it's mostly on his side wrt beating knowledge into the brains of these little brats.
posted by fleacircus at 10:47 PM on February 20
What nags me about the pontifications specifically is that they are pretty low quality, and when the movie has normies react gobsmacked and slack-jawed it makes me think the movie thinks the outbursts are a little impressive; and the way it uses them as parallel character traits (that don't change) makes me wonder if it's supposed to be comic or just some foibles and flavor though again, they are low quality. Or maybe it's a regional detail and the Boston area is just crawling with wannabe llatiwonks.
I don't think the film cares about his teaching ability very much. (If it did it would have to ask if he did a disservice to the sacred dead kid.) I think the movie does respect his principles though, and I think it's mostly on his side wrt beating knowledge into the brains of these little brats.
posted by fleacircus at 10:47 PM on February 20
when the movie has normies react gobsmacked and slack-jawed it makes me think the movie thinks the outbursts are a little impressive
That's not slack-jawed being impressed, that's slack-jawed "WTF are you even talking about, dude?" (Almost literal "Sir, this is an Arby's.")
Just because someone is the protagonist of a film doesn't mean everything he does has to be either Great or A Carefully-Flagged Flaw They Will Get Over. The guy has reacted to challenging life circumstances by becoming an embittered quasi-jerk who's turned away from life. His major character movement is on the last score, though one hopes that when he moves out of his tiny world with his appointed set of victims he'll improve on the former, as well.
posted by praemunire at 8:23 AM on February 21 [3 favorites]
That's not slack-jawed being impressed, that's slack-jawed "WTF are you even talking about, dude?" (Almost literal "Sir, this is an Arby's.")
Just because someone is the protagonist of a film doesn't mean everything he does has to be either Great or A Carefully-Flagged Flaw They Will Get Over. The guy has reacted to challenging life circumstances by becoming an embittered quasi-jerk who's turned away from life. His major character movement is on the last score, though one hopes that when he moves out of his tiny world with his appointed set of victims he'll improve on the former, as well.
posted by praemunire at 8:23 AM on February 21 [3 favorites]
(But if you find that makes him too unsympathetic to enjoy watching a film in which he is the lead character, that's a totally fair subjective reaction. And one I have to a number of 70s character dramas!)
posted by praemunire at 8:24 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 8:24 AM on February 21 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I don't think the movie intends for you to be impressed with his outbursts at all.
It intends for you to grok that he is intelligent, sure, but also that he's misguided, insufferable, and extremely poorly socialized.
People in the movie are not impressed or intimidated by him, so much as they groan because he's back on his bullshit.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:13 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
It intends for you to grok that he is intelligent, sure, but also that he's misguided, insufferable, and extremely poorly socialized.
People in the movie are not impressed or intimidated by him, so much as they groan because he's back on his bullshit.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:13 AM on February 21 [4 favorites]
If the movie IS trying to show he is intelligent, then I think those little outbursts have to be intelligent, so they have to be a little bit "impressive" in the context I'm using the word in. I don't go, "Wow this guy is intelligent," I go, "Wow this guy thinks he's smart but he's just like lamely educated in basic classical history" and feel that's not in sync with the movie and start to question the goals of the movie and its construction etc.
I think he's a poorly put together character. He's "misguided, insufferable, and extremely poorly socialized", but also he barely makes any true missteps beyond surface social awkwardness; he's faultless with the head cook and all the race, class and deadkid considerations it's using her for; he is hopeful about romance but backs down easily; just barely beneath the surface he's a mensch and a gentleman and a working man's hero.
The film sort of reminds me of an episode of the "Know Your Enemy" podcast and somehow it feels like I'm watching a half-fictionalized origin story of some fringe conservative intellectual; maybe he doesn't write his manuscript but he writes book reviews for the National Review until he gets disenchanted by Reagan.
(The guys in the bowling alley are groaning at this guy's bullshit, but the pinball game guys I think are supposed to be uncomprehending; the waitress has to translate. (She is definitely internally groaning at more of his bullshit.) This is another aspect of the movie that rings false to me, like, there's lots of clever people in bars and people would generally not be flummoxed by this guy. TBH I think the bowling alley outburst is kind of okay, I think he's supposed to be kind of self-defeatingly 'reaching out' in a way that looks like lashing out.)
Just because someone is the protagonist of a film doesn't mean everything he does has to be either Great or A Carefully-Flagged Flaw They Will Get Over. The guy has reacted to challenging life circumstances by becoming an embittered quasi-jerk who's turned away from life. His major character movement is on the last score, though one hopes that when he moves out of his tiny world with his appointed set of victims he'll improve on the former, as well.
I mean I agree with that assessment of what the movie is trying to be.
I'm probably latching on too hard to this one thing asking it to make sense, but it's because I feel other things, and other structure is lacking. It is kind of major characterization though; it's practically the first trait we see of the kid, and it's echoed between the dudes, and so I expect it to be a little more than throwaway or redundant. Or to be played for laughs better. Because otherwise this movie I think has an impoverished kind of worldview that's jarring to me.
(But if you find that makes him too unsympathetic to enjoy watching a film in which he is the lead character, that's a totally fair subjective reaction. And one I have to a number of 70s character dramas!)
I do find him to be unsympathetic on a surface level, but I think a different movie could have made it work for me by having his encounters with the world seem more like the encounters that type of guy would/should have with the world. I think what I feel is frustration; I *should* be sympathetic with his struggle, but I am frustrated by the movie's lack of sharpness and its kid gloves. Like either get in there and mix things up, or at least be funnier.
If I think of this movie as a character study it starts to seem contemptibly simplistic. If I think of it as a comedy it's too sincere and not funny enough. Hence what I said above that overall this feels like a kids movie, somehow.
posted by fleacircus at 4:33 PM on February 21
I think he's a poorly put together character. He's "misguided, insufferable, and extremely poorly socialized", but also he barely makes any true missteps beyond surface social awkwardness; he's faultless with the head cook and all the race, class and deadkid considerations it's using her for; he is hopeful about romance but backs down easily; just barely beneath the surface he's a mensch and a gentleman and a working man's hero.
The film sort of reminds me of an episode of the "Know Your Enemy" podcast and somehow it feels like I'm watching a half-fictionalized origin story of some fringe conservative intellectual; maybe he doesn't write his manuscript but he writes book reviews for the National Review until he gets disenchanted by Reagan.
(The guys in the bowling alley are groaning at this guy's bullshit, but the pinball game guys I think are supposed to be uncomprehending; the waitress has to translate. (She is definitely internally groaning at more of his bullshit.) This is another aspect of the movie that rings false to me, like, there's lots of clever people in bars and people would generally not be flummoxed by this guy. TBH I think the bowling alley outburst is kind of okay, I think he's supposed to be kind of self-defeatingly 'reaching out' in a way that looks like lashing out.)
Just because someone is the protagonist of a film doesn't mean everything he does has to be either Great or A Carefully-Flagged Flaw They Will Get Over. The guy has reacted to challenging life circumstances by becoming an embittered quasi-jerk who's turned away from life. His major character movement is on the last score, though one hopes that when he moves out of his tiny world with his appointed set of victims he'll improve on the former, as well.
I mean I agree with that assessment of what the movie is trying to be.
I'm probably latching on too hard to this one thing asking it to make sense, but it's because I feel other things, and other structure is lacking. It is kind of major characterization though; it's practically the first trait we see of the kid, and it's echoed between the dudes, and so I expect it to be a little more than throwaway or redundant. Or to be played for laughs better. Because otherwise this movie I think has an impoverished kind of worldview that's jarring to me.
(But if you find that makes him too unsympathetic to enjoy watching a film in which he is the lead character, that's a totally fair subjective reaction. And one I have to a number of 70s character dramas!)
I do find him to be unsympathetic on a surface level, but I think a different movie could have made it work for me by having his encounters with the world seem more like the encounters that type of guy would/should have with the world. I think what I feel is frustration; I *should* be sympathetic with his struggle, but I am frustrated by the movie's lack of sharpness and its kid gloves. Like either get in there and mix things up, or at least be funnier.
If I think of this movie as a character study it starts to seem contemptibly simplistic. If I think of it as a comedy it's too sincere and not funny enough. Hence what I said above that overall this feels like a kids movie, somehow.
posted by fleacircus at 4:33 PM on February 21
Mr. Hunham "intelligence", however construed, is not central to the movie (nor is his teaching ability, which is mostly cast in a negative light). The only thing we're asked to commend him for is standing up for a troubled young man in need, which required him to master several of his own limitations (purported reluctance to lie, indirect speech through pointless references, bitterness towards his own students...)
The academic setting of the film is just that... the movie is (as you say) a character study, about how three people in adverse circumstances overcome/make peace with those circumstances, and arguably end up in a better place than they were in the beginning.
It does feel like the movie just didn't succeed in making you care about its characters, which you know... in a sense is the movie's problem not yours. I think for those of us inclined to defend the movie though, it does rather feel like you're projecting weaknesses onto the film that don't really fit.
posted by Alex404 at 4:15 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
The academic setting of the film is just that... the movie is (as you say) a character study, about how three people in adverse circumstances overcome/make peace with those circumstances, and arguably end up in a better place than they were in the beginning.
It does feel like the movie just didn't succeed in making you care about its characters, which you know... in a sense is the movie's problem not yours. I think for those of us inclined to defend the movie though, it does rather feel like you're projecting weaknesses onto the film that don't really fit.
posted by Alex404 at 4:15 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
It intends for you to grok that he is intelligent, sure, but also that he's misguided, insufferable, and extremely poorly socialized.
I don't believe that the writer intended it as such, but it made me think that he was on the spectrum. More to the point, it made me think of myself and the kind of things I would talk about before I was knocked about a bit in the wider world. I still remember a group of people bursting into laughter when I started to say -- Well, never mind. The point is, if I had been immediately hired at my archaeology or classics department instead of going out and working with others, I might talk that way too.
So it's a personal movie for me, I guess, and that's why I responded so positively. De gustibus -- I mean, it's a matter of taste.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:42 AM on February 22
I don't believe that the writer intended it as such, but it made me think that he was on the spectrum. More to the point, it made me think of myself and the kind of things I would talk about before I was knocked about a bit in the wider world. I still remember a group of people bursting into laughter when I started to say -- Well, never mind. The point is, if I had been immediately hired at my archaeology or classics department instead of going out and working with others, I might talk that way too.
So it's a personal movie for me, I guess, and that's why I responded so positively. De gustibus -- I mean, it's a matter of taste.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:42 AM on February 22
I actually found the movie overall to be not worthy of an Oscar nomination, too sentimental and simplistic (though Randolph can have hers); I just don't think the problem with it is that it thinks Hunham's character is supposed to be impressive.
posted by praemunire at 8:00 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 8:00 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
...too sentimental and simplistic...
Yah exactly. I mean, it really worked for me, but if someone told me they found it formulaic and trite I couldn't really disagree. It updates an old formula in extremely safe ways. I think the only reason it's making a bit of a splash this year is because it's the sort of movie that Hollywood used to produce in spades.
posted by Alex404 at 8:42 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
Yah exactly. I mean, it really worked for me, but if someone told me they found it formulaic and trite I couldn't really disagree. It updates an old formula in extremely safe ways. I think the only reason it's making a bit of a splash this year is because it's the sort of movie that Hollywood used to produce in spades.
posted by Alex404 at 8:42 AM on February 22 [2 favorites]
Oh no I'm a Giamatti character in this thread fml!
I think for those of us inclined to defend the movie though, it does rather feel like you're projecting weaknesses onto the film that don't really fit.
Well, I have enjoyed digging into why I dislike the movie, and I am not really looking to convert anybody. I don't really care whether people disagree with me or not. I read comments I disagree with and if they're interesting that's great. I hope to say interesting things too, whether you agree or disagree.
What I'm being a little stubborn about is that you plucked the word "impressive" out of some other words I said and invented an argument with it that I didn't make, and other people jumped in on it. I've just tried to clarify what I've said. It's annoying enough to get talked down to; it's doubly annoying when it's not even about something I actually said.
But OTOH all this is a good excuse to hold up this film and look at it a bit more because the way it didn't work for me is interesting for me.
posted by fleacircus at 10:27 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I think for those of us inclined to defend the movie though, it does rather feel like you're projecting weaknesses onto the film that don't really fit.
Well, I have enjoyed digging into why I dislike the movie, and I am not really looking to convert anybody. I don't really care whether people disagree with me or not. I read comments I disagree with and if they're interesting that's great. I hope to say interesting things too, whether you agree or disagree.
What I'm being a little stubborn about is that you plucked the word "impressive" out of some other words I said and invented an argument with it that I didn't make, and other people jumped in on it. I've just tried to clarify what I've said. It's annoying enough to get talked down to; it's doubly annoying when it's not even about something I actually said.
But OTOH all this is a good excuse to hold up this film and look at it a bit more because the way it didn't work for me is interesting for me.
posted by fleacircus at 10:27 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
I think the only reason it's making a bit of a splash this year is because it's the sort of movie that Hollywood used to produce in spades.
Yes. It's not a bad movie to have out there. It's the kind of movie people are talking about when they say it's unfortunate that superhero movies have eaten all the oxygen that used to go to quiet dramas, etc., and it has a place in a healthy movie ecosystem. If my mom hadn't had COVID on her Christmas visit, it's the kind of film I could've taken her to. The acting and cinematography were up to scratch (again, I know he's playing someone not too far from himself, but for this to be Sessa's debut is genuinely impressive). It's just very middlebrow.
posted by praemunire at 10:34 AM on February 22
Yes. It's not a bad movie to have out there. It's the kind of movie people are talking about when they say it's unfortunate that superhero movies have eaten all the oxygen that used to go to quiet dramas, etc., and it has a place in a healthy movie ecosystem. If my mom hadn't had COVID on her Christmas visit, it's the kind of film I could've taken her to. The acting and cinematography were up to scratch (again, I know he's playing someone not too far from himself, but for this to be Sessa's debut is genuinely impressive). It's just very middlebrow.
posted by praemunire at 10:34 AM on February 22
By the way, I don't think Hunham is necessarily meant to be very deft with Mary, either. He's certainly better than some of the kids, but that's a low bar. He's sympathetic and he's trying to do the right thing, but a socially maladept privileged white guy can only get so far in figuring out what that is for a black woman in a "socially inferior" position grappling with a tragedy beyond his comprehension. I felt throughout that it was more her extending patience to him (as she was no doubt expected to do at the time) than him being artful in reaching out to her. That doesn't invalidate their connection; I just think she did most of the heavy lifting.
posted by praemunire at 10:41 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
posted by praemunire at 10:41 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
What I'm being a little stubborn about is that you plucked the word "impressive" out of some other words I said and invented an argument with it that I didn't make...
That definitely wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if I misrepresented what you wrote. Regardless, it's been an interesting discussion. Stick to your guns, fellow film lover!
posted by Alex404 at 10:57 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
That definitely wasn't my intent, and I'm sorry if I misrepresented what you wrote. Regardless, it's been an interesting discussion. Stick to your guns, fellow film lover!
posted by Alex404 at 10:57 AM on February 22 [1 favorite]
(I'll be honest, some of the films that make me the crankiest and the pettiest, critically, are the ones where I feel the director/script is pushing me to have more sympathy for a character than I feel inclined to or at least think there is a basis for. I pretty much fling myself out of the shopping cart, kick my feet on the ground, and wail, "Nooooooooooooo! I don't wannnnnnnnnna!")
posted by praemunire at 1:32 PM on February 22
posted by praemunire at 1:32 PM on February 22
I'm a big fan of Paul Giamatti, and I think he was superb in this film, a pettifogging man who, by his own fault, never reached what he probably thought was his full potential.
Dominic Sessa was incredible, with all the fearlessness of someone in his first acting role. He was a perfect foil for the uptight teacher. Da'Vine Joy Randolph was the beating heart of the film.
I thought the period detail was excellent, particularly the brown, brown, brown and orange 70s colour palette. Oh, so much brown and orange in those days ...
posted by essexjan at 3:08 AM on March 7
Dominic Sessa was incredible, with all the fearlessness of someone in his first acting role. He was a perfect foil for the uptight teacher. Da'Vine Joy Randolph was the beating heart of the film.
I thought the period detail was excellent, particularly the brown, brown, brown and orange 70s colour palette. Oh, so much brown and orange in those days ...
posted by essexjan at 3:08 AM on March 7
Richly deserved Oscar for Da’Vine Joy Randolph!
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:29 AM on March 11 [5 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:29 AM on March 11 [5 favorites]
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