Doctor Who: The Giggle
December 9, 2023 11:44 AM - All Seasons - Subscribe
Upon their return to Earth, the Doctor and Donna find the world inexplicably descending into chaos. When the Doctor discovers the return of a long-ago foe, he faces a fight he may not be able to win.
Also Ow my Brain.
Also,
ALSO -
Fanfic - from this point onwards - is going to be EsPeciAlLy Un-hinged!
posted by Faintdreams at 11:57 AM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Also,
ALSO -
Fanfic - from this point onwards - is going to be EsPeciAlLy Un-hinged!
posted by Faintdreams at 11:57 AM on December 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
"It is geraining."
That's weeks of German classes right there.
posted by biffa at 1:26 PM on December 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
That's weeks of German classes right there.
posted by biffa at 1:26 PM on December 9, 2023 [7 favorites]
Haven't watched yet but from having seen a summary, conceptually at least I am 1000% on board with everything that happens.
posted by juv3nal at 2:29 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by juv3nal at 2:29 PM on December 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Stepping outside the story just for a second, what I find incredible is how RTD has essentially ctrl-alt-del Doctor Who. There was a narrative around Whittaker (and arguably Capaldi) that "the show was sliding away from its high point and there was no way to stop it". With these three episodes, that has been laid to rest. It needed RTD to come back, it needed everyone to remember previous Doctors, and it needed to signpost the future. It's done that spectacularly.
If these three specials remind me of anything, they remind me of "The Five Faces Of Doctor Who". Back in 1981 there was a tricky issue of starting a new season after Tom Baker had left; after a long production gap; and moving to weekday nights. The answer was John Nathan Turner somehow getting five weeks of four nights (Mon-Thur) on BBC 2 to repeat (for the first time) stories with previous Doctors. It was a reminder of previous Doctors, a signpost for the future, and it was (at least to this seven-year-old) utterly spectacular.
* An Unearthly Child (1), The Krotons (2), The Three Doctors (1,2,3), The Carnival of Monsters (3), Logopolis (4's regeneration).
posted by ewan at 4:18 PM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
If these three specials remind me of anything, they remind me of "The Five Faces Of Doctor Who". Back in 1981 there was a tricky issue of starting a new season after Tom Baker had left; after a long production gap; and moving to weekday nights. The answer was John Nathan Turner somehow getting five weeks of four nights (Mon-Thur) on BBC 2 to repeat (for the first time) stories with previous Doctors. It was a reminder of previous Doctors, a signpost for the future, and it was (at least to this seven-year-old) utterly spectacular.
* An Unearthly Child (1), The Krotons (2), The Three Doctors (1,2,3), The Carnival of Monsters (3), Logopolis (4's regeneration).
posted by ewan at 4:18 PM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
So I deliberately waited until after having seen this episode to come in here; after spending all afternoon in Midtown Manhattan at a play rehearsal (ON THE SAME DAY AS SANTA-CON, mind you) I raced home, stopping only to buy the tomato I needed for dinner tomorrow night, and immediately fired the TV up to watch this. So this is a very unfiltered (and spoiler-free) reaction.
The intellectual side of me is thinking "hmm....RTD, that is a TOUCH sentimental, my good man."
But that side is being shouted down by a loud voice saying
SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
DT was not just My Doctor - Donna was My Companion. I could not be happier with where we're leaving them.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:55 PM on December 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
The intellectual side of me is thinking "hmm....RTD, that is a TOUCH sentimental, my good man."
But that side is being shouted down by a loud voice saying
SQUEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE!
DT was not just My Doctor - Donna was My Companion. I could not be happier with where we're leaving them.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:55 PM on December 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
Oh, okay, one tiny spoiler -
Thank you, RTD, for treating us all to the sight of Neil Patrick Harris cavorting through UNIT headquarters singing "Spice Up Your Life." I did not know how badly I needed to see that.
...There's also an anecdote from when RTD reached out to Neil to invite him onto the show. He'd worked with Neil on his earlier show It's A Sin and thought that with Neil's magic background he'd be perfect for The Toymaker. He reports that he sent Neil the script, and after Neil read it, he called RTD to say he had one question first before they talked terms - "So, this Doctor guy....is he, like, an alien?"
And that's how RTD learned that Neil had NEVER seen Doctor Who at any point and had to be broken in a little.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:25 PM on December 9, 2023 [25 favorites]
Thank you, RTD, for treating us all to the sight of Neil Patrick Harris cavorting through UNIT headquarters singing "Spice Up Your Life." I did not know how badly I needed to see that.
...There's also an anecdote from when RTD reached out to Neil to invite him onto the show. He'd worked with Neil on his earlier show It's A Sin and thought that with Neil's magic background he'd be perfect for The Toymaker. He reports that he sent Neil the script, and after Neil read it, he called RTD to say he had one question first before they talked terms - "So, this Doctor guy....is he, like, an alien?"
And that's how RTD learned that Neil had NEVER seen Doctor Who at any point and had to be broken in a little.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:25 PM on December 9, 2023 [25 favorites]
I LOVED THIS SO MUCH.
I thought the Toymaker stuff was great - both commenting on the character's racist/Orientalist origins in the Classic series, while also making fun of stereotypes in a bufoonish way. The idea of the Giggle and dialing up of everyone's doom scrolling/online outrage was great - without really saying the problem is with the technology. The problem, as always, is how humans use it.
But, of course, the biggest twist is the bi-generation of Fourteen and Fifteen and Ncuti Gatwa in his underpants!!!!
I know people are going to complain so much about the story mechanics or the in-universe explanation or whether that means the first Black Man playing the Doctor isn't the real Doctor. I say, forget all that.
RTD's 2005 reboot put so much trauma in the Doctor's backstory by inventing the Time War and "the last of the Time Lords" and it was a defining characteristic of every modern Doctor, even when Moffat tried to rehabilitate him and Chibnall wanted to re-invent the wheel. Now RTD is back, he's done a sort of reboot - allowing one version of the Doctor to retire and settle down with his "chosen family". Yes, his retirement gift being a full working TARDIS is perhaps a bit much - but all the other Doctors are really out there all the time anyway, right?
I was really moved by Ncuti giving David a hug and telling him he can rest now. Letting the Fourteenth Doctor relax and fix himself. The "older" Doctor *forgiving* his "younger" self for all the pain and trauma he'd been through and caused. It's a recurring idea that the Doctor hurts his Companions, so it's nice that in this case he can be there for one or two of them for the rest of their lives.
posted by crossoverman at 7:25 PM on December 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
I thought the Toymaker stuff was great - both commenting on the character's racist/Orientalist origins in the Classic series, while also making fun of stereotypes in a bufoonish way. The idea of the Giggle and dialing up of everyone's doom scrolling/online outrage was great - without really saying the problem is with the technology. The problem, as always, is how humans use it.
But, of course, the biggest twist is the bi-generation of Fourteen and Fifteen and Ncuti Gatwa in his underpants!!!!
I know people are going to complain so much about the story mechanics or the in-universe explanation or whether that means the first Black Man playing the Doctor isn't the real Doctor. I say, forget all that.
RTD's 2005 reboot put so much trauma in the Doctor's backstory by inventing the Time War and "the last of the Time Lords" and it was a defining characteristic of every modern Doctor, even when Moffat tried to rehabilitate him and Chibnall wanted to re-invent the wheel. Now RTD is back, he's done a sort of reboot - allowing one version of the Doctor to retire and settle down with his "chosen family". Yes, his retirement gift being a full working TARDIS is perhaps a bit much - but all the other Doctors are really out there all the time anyway, right?
I was really moved by Ncuti giving David a hug and telling him he can rest now. Letting the Fourteenth Doctor relax and fix himself. The "older" Doctor *forgiving* his "younger" self for all the pain and trauma he'd been through and caused. It's a recurring idea that the Doctor hurts his Companions, so it's nice that in this case he can be there for one or two of them for the rest of their lives.
posted by crossoverman at 7:25 PM on December 9, 2023 [10 favorites]
But, of course, the biggest twist is the bi-generation of Fourteen and Fifteen and Ncuti Gatwa in his underpants!!!!
If you look closely at both their clothes - they sort of SPLIT Fourteen's Clothes. Fifteen got the Oxford Shirt and the Tie, and Fourteen kept the pants, the vest, and an undershirt.
....And that means...if Fifteen has the underpants, Fourteen is going commando.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:28 PM on December 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
If you look closely at both their clothes - they sort of SPLIT Fourteen's Clothes. Fifteen got the Oxford Shirt and the Tie, and Fourteen kept the pants, the vest, and an undershirt.
....And that means...if Fifteen has the underpants, Fourteen is going commando.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:28 PM on December 9, 2023 [17 favorites]
There seems to have been some diabolical distribution error and Journey’s End has been replayed.
But seriously, how many spare Davids Tennant are we up to now?
Not to knock the episode, though, which was a lot of fun. It felt like the weakest of the three specials, which have generally been quite good. I guess with all the mechanical work it had to do it came out a bit overstuffed. Lots of nice moments, but also a lot that could have been more explored except we had a new setting and a new set to get to.
I will be having nightmares about those teeth.
Ncuti was great in his first few minutes and I’m looking forward to the Xmas special, which I can only assume takes place in Ul’dah.
posted by dumbland at 9:06 PM on December 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
But seriously, how many spare Davids Tennant are we up to now?
Not to knock the episode, though, which was a lot of fun. It felt like the weakest of the three specials, which have generally been quite good. I guess with all the mechanical work it had to do it came out a bit overstuffed. Lots of nice moments, but also a lot that could have been more explored except we had a new setting and a new set to get to.
I will be having nightmares about those teeth.
Ncuti was great in his first few minutes and I’m looking forward to the Xmas special, which I can only assume takes place in Ul’dah.
posted by dumbland at 9:06 PM on December 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh, RTD is back, in a big way. When Harris was dancing around to the Spice Girls, that was such a Bonkers Russell Moment. And man, when Davies wants to hit you in the feels, he hits hard.
But seriously, how many spare Davids Tennant are we up to now?
There's the 14th Doctor, and the half-human David Tennant Doctor living on Earth with Rose... but then you've also got the original David Tennant Doctor flying around in time, dropping by Earth in different eras. So, you could easily have a scenario where a Dalek ship arrives in London and three David Tennant Doctors show up. (I'm kind of surprised more hasn't been done with the half-human Doctor, really. When that happened years ago, I thought, "Well, we'll definitely be seeing him again." But then we didn't.)
That was a weird, undignified cameo for the Master, played by a gold tooth. When the tooth was left at the end and a woman's hand collected it, I nerdily clocked it as a callback to this business. Could there still be surviving members of the Disciples of Saxon?!
Heh. The "go woke and go broke" trolls are gonna lose their minds over the TARDIS having a wheelchair ramp.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:38 PM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
But seriously, how many spare Davids Tennant are we up to now?
There's the 14th Doctor, and the half-human David Tennant Doctor living on Earth with Rose... but then you've also got the original David Tennant Doctor flying around in time, dropping by Earth in different eras. So, you could easily have a scenario where a Dalek ship arrives in London and three David Tennant Doctors show up. (I'm kind of surprised more hasn't been done with the half-human Doctor, really. When that happened years ago, I thought, "Well, we'll definitely be seeing him again." But then we didn't.)
That was a weird, undignified cameo for the Master, played by a gold tooth. When the tooth was left at the end and a woman's hand collected it, I nerdily clocked it as a callback to this business. Could there still be surviving members of the Disciples of Saxon?!
Heh. The "go woke and go broke" trolls are gonna lose their minds over the TARDIS having a wheelchair ramp.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 9:38 PM on December 9, 2023 [6 favorites]
Anyone else get vibes of Star Trek's Q from the Toymaster's dance number?
posted by Paul Slade at 12:26 AM on December 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Paul Slade at 12:26 AM on December 10, 2023 [8 favorites]
Unfortunately I mainly got "inexplicable Rasputin dance" vibes from that part, which kinda got in the way of enjoying something I otherwise would have.
Killing the gremlins in one's brain is a process.
posted by dumbland at 12:39 AM on December 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Killing the gremlins in one's brain is a process.
posted by dumbland at 12:39 AM on December 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Point of order - the half-human Doctor is living with Rose in a totally different Universe, so in theory he CAN'T easily reappear to be a third wheel.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:32 AM on December 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:32 AM on December 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
Jobu Tupaki for me.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 3:47 AM on December 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 3:47 AM on December 10, 2023 [11 favorites]
I knew what 15 was going to do with that hammer as soon as he found it and I was still giggling for about ten minutes afterwards. I don't know why I found it so pleasing.
Since the Toymaker has/had turned the Doctor's life "into a jigsaw" does that mean another rewrite of the Doctor's past?
posted by antiwiggle at 5:48 AM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Since the Toymaker has/had turned the Doctor's life "into a jigsaw" does that mean another rewrite of the Doctor's past?
posted by antiwiggle at 5:48 AM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Since the Toymaker has/had turned the Doctor's life "into a jigsaw" does that mean another rewrite of the Doctor's past?
I dunno - I think it's more like The Doctor making peace with his past. RTD was the one who introduced the whole notion of The Doctor Tortured By His Past Misdeeds right from the first - when he brought back the show in the 2000s, the whole Time War thing was right there in the first season. He was playing with the theme of The Doctor being haunted by his past throughout his whole tenure, and both Moffett and Chibnall added to that during their terms and made it even more baroque; The Doctor didn't just have the whole Time War now, he also had whatever was going on with Trenzalore, and then The Flux, and a bunch of other smaller-scale things that The Doctor was beating himself up for.
RTD has announced that he is re-starting the series over and naming Ncuti Gatwa's era as "Season One". And I think that the way Fourteen was encouraged to rest and recoup back on Earth while Fifteen went off and roamed the universe was sort of RTD's way of saying "You know what, this whole thing with The Doctor being Tortured By His Past isn't something I'm going to do any more." Yeah, The Doctor may fuck up, and he may still lose companions to bad accidents, but he's not going to be obsessing about it or doing the equivalent of plugging his ears and going "lalalala" about it either. Fourteen staying on Earth with Donna is basically the equivalent of The Doctor going through some much-needed therapy, and Fifteen is going to be RTD skipping ahead to "okay, now he's done with therapy and we can just get on with the fun part".
So I don't think it's a rewrite of his past, I think it's a signal that The Doctor isn't going to be obsessing about his own past as much. It's more of an "my past is what it is, some bits sucked and some were great, just like with everyone. Now let's go check out what dinosaurs smelled like."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:56 AM on December 10, 2023 [17 favorites]
I dunno - I think it's more like The Doctor making peace with his past. RTD was the one who introduced the whole notion of The Doctor Tortured By His Past Misdeeds right from the first - when he brought back the show in the 2000s, the whole Time War thing was right there in the first season. He was playing with the theme of The Doctor being haunted by his past throughout his whole tenure, and both Moffett and Chibnall added to that during their terms and made it even more baroque; The Doctor didn't just have the whole Time War now, he also had whatever was going on with Trenzalore, and then The Flux, and a bunch of other smaller-scale things that The Doctor was beating himself up for.
RTD has announced that he is re-starting the series over and naming Ncuti Gatwa's era as "Season One". And I think that the way Fourteen was encouraged to rest and recoup back on Earth while Fifteen went off and roamed the universe was sort of RTD's way of saying "You know what, this whole thing with The Doctor being Tortured By His Past isn't something I'm going to do any more." Yeah, The Doctor may fuck up, and he may still lose companions to bad accidents, but he's not going to be obsessing about it or doing the equivalent of plugging his ears and going "lalalala" about it either. Fourteen staying on Earth with Donna is basically the equivalent of The Doctor going through some much-needed therapy, and Fifteen is going to be RTD skipping ahead to "okay, now he's done with therapy and we can just get on with the fun part".
So I don't think it's a rewrite of his past, I think it's a signal that The Doctor isn't going to be obsessing about his own past as much. It's more of an "my past is what it is, some bits sucked and some were great, just like with everyone. Now let's go check out what dinosaurs smelled like."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:56 AM on December 10, 2023 [17 favorites]
Yeah, these three specials have signaled strongly to me “let’s make Doctor Who fun again.” That doesn’t mean abandoning big social issues or dark themes and horror, but it does mean having an attitude that takes all those things with a wink and a smile. Doctor Who fans have a tendency to take the show too seriously, and that applies to the last two showrunners. I don’t love everything Davies has done with the show, but I always liked the tone he set of wonder and adventure even to the point of being zany and corny. Better that than dreary and hidebound.
posted by rikschell at 9:04 AM on December 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by rikschell at 9:04 AM on December 10, 2023 [7 favorites]
The whole puppet show with Amy, Clara, Bill, and the Flux really hits over the head with RTD’s thoughts on how his predecessors handled the final fate of companions. “Well, that’s alright then!”
posted by Servo5678 at 11:46 AM on December 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
posted by Servo5678 at 11:46 AM on December 10, 2023 [13 favorites]
I've long since wondered why, since Big Finish is now considered canon (inasmuch as canon counts for much in a shambling Whoniverse full of resets and the-entire-universe-endeds), we couldn't have previous incarnations of contemporary Doctors returning for threads here and there in the way BF would skip around between them, and this sort of makes me feel like that's a thing that could happen.
posted by sonascope at 12:48 PM on December 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by sonascope at 12:48 PM on December 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know; the Doctor had a point there - the tragedy of the Ponds was that they had a great life, but the Doctor could never see them again due to the quantum timelock of the Angels. Meanwhile, Clara got her desire to go off and travel in space and time for as long as she wants, and at the end of The Doctor Falls, the Pilot told Bill she could become human again any time she wanted. None of them Adric-level horrors!
What I want to know is when Martha is going to get her copy of the Tenant Doctor?
(also, the Doctor spent almost two and a half decades with River Song plus a number of decades at that university while looking after Missy! That counts as slowing down!)
But that aside, mostly loved this - NPH doing 'Spice Up Your Life' was pure RTD, and having the big finale being a game of catch on the new UNIT 'Avengers Tower' was just the right kind of silliness. And Gatwa is going to be great, I'm sure…
posted by carsondial at 12:56 PM on December 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
What I want to know is when Martha is going to get her copy of the Tenant Doctor?
(also, the Doctor spent almost two and a half decades with River Song plus a number of decades at that university while looking after Missy! That counts as slowing down!)
But that aside, mostly loved this - NPH doing 'Spice Up Your Life' was pure RTD, and having the big finale being a game of catch on the new UNIT 'Avengers Tower' was just the right kind of silliness. And Gatwa is going to be great, I'm sure…
posted by carsondial at 12:56 PM on December 10, 2023 [6 favorites]
RTD has announced that he is re-starting the series over and naming Ncuti Gatwa's era as "Season One".
I understand this from a creative stand-point: it makes sense to do a soft reboot at this moment.
But the most practical reason for this, since most of the world is getting this on Disney+ - marking it as Season 1 means that it's all clean on the streaming service. If it was marked as Season Fourteen, people might think they are missing the previous Thirteen seasons. And I'm sure Disney just wants viewers to just jump in.
posted by crossoverman at 1:23 PM on December 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
I understand this from a creative stand-point: it makes sense to do a soft reboot at this moment.
But the most practical reason for this, since most of the world is getting this on Disney+ - marking it as Season 1 means that it's all clean on the streaming service. If it was marked as Season Fourteen, people might think they are missing the previous Thirteen seasons. And I'm sure Disney just wants viewers to just jump in.
posted by crossoverman at 1:23 PM on December 10, 2023 [4 favorites]
Becoming the Toymaker: Behind the scenes.
posted by Coaticass at 1:28 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Coaticass at 1:28 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
RTD’s thoughts on how his predecessors handled the final fate of companions
Not that he's one to throw stones...
Speaking of unceremoniously ditching companions, what's up with the Toymaker leaving out Yaz, Ryan, Graham, and Dan?! Mel is also curiously silent about them, given that she met Graham & Ryan at the Doctor's Companions' Support Group. Purposeful snub of Jodie Whitaker's era? Sign of further storyline transformations? Cut for time? Whatever the intention, feels a bit disrespectful to the actors at the very least, who put in the effort and earned the affection of a lot of viewers.
Was nerding out over the ramifications of a retired 10/14 Doctor living in London post-2023. Depending on how long he stays, he could
-visit 13(Capaldi) on the Moon in 2049 when it hatches,
-see himself as 10 in 2059 in the aftermath of "Waters of Mars",
-help 2(Troughton) defeat an invasion by the Cybermen in 2070,
-assist 5 (Davison) with the Sea-Devils in 2084,
-help 2 again with an Ice-Warriors invasion in 2100,
-meet up with 13 & Clara again in 2119 at an underwater base off the shore of Scotland,
-pop over to Wales in 2144 to help 12(Smith) with the plastic flesh people,
-even visit with his granddaughter and the baby of the group #1 in 2164 when the Daleks invade!
That's only in first century and a half, a blink of an eye to a Time Lord.
they really do spend a lot of time on Earth...
full disclaimer: i put together that list after scrubbing through the amazing videos put together for the Stitches in Time project
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:03 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Not that he's one to throw stones...
Speaking of unceremoniously ditching companions, what's up with the Toymaker leaving out Yaz, Ryan, Graham, and Dan?! Mel is also curiously silent about them, given that she met Graham & Ryan at the Doctor's Companions' Support Group. Purposeful snub of Jodie Whitaker's era? Sign of further storyline transformations? Cut for time? Whatever the intention, feels a bit disrespectful to the actors at the very least, who put in the effort and earned the affection of a lot of viewers.
Was nerding out over the ramifications of a retired 10/14 Doctor living in London post-2023. Depending on how long he stays, he could
-visit 13(Capaldi) on the Moon in 2049 when it hatches,
-see himself as 10 in 2059 in the aftermath of "Waters of Mars",
-help 2(Troughton) defeat an invasion by the Cybermen in 2070,
-assist 5 (Davison) with the Sea-Devils in 2084,
-help 2 again with an Ice-Warriors invasion in 2100,
-meet up with 13 & Clara again in 2119 at an underwater base off the shore of Scotland,
-pop over to Wales in 2144 to help 12(Smith) with the plastic flesh people,
-even visit with his granddaughter and the baby of the group #1 in 2164 when the Daleks invade!
That's only in first century and a half, a blink of an eye to a Time Lord.
they really do spend a lot of time on Earth...
full disclaimer: i put together that list after scrubbing through the amazing videos put together for the Stitches in Time project
posted by Saxon Kane at 2:03 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
what's up with the Toymaker leaving out Yaz, Ryan, Graham, and Dan?!
I think the Toymaker was doing the puppet show to try and make the Doctor feel guilty and to potentially drive a wedge between the Doctor and Donna by making Donna realize that the Doctor's companions sometimes end up with these weird, deeply ambiguous fates. Yaz, Ryan, Graham and Dan don't really fit the Toymaker's point since they all just went back to their normal lives. Actually I'm surprised the Toymaker didn't include Donna in the puppet show. If he wanted to make things awkward for the Doctor and Donna, reminding them of how he mind-wiped her would've seemed like exhibit A.
Point of order - the half-human Doctor is living with Rose in a totally different Universe, so in theory he CAN'T easily reappear to be a third wheel.
Oh, right. It's been long enough that I forgot the whole thing about Rose and 10 being separated by the dimensional barrier. Still, I'm surprised they didn't do more with 10 1/2. At the time I assumed one of the reasons they'd made him half-human was so that he could drop in every 5 years or so and they'd have an excuse for why he looked older.
We didn't spend much time with the new Doctor but it seems pretty clear he's going to be one of the nice ones, with all the hugging and everything. No "ATTACK EYEBROWS" for this guy!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:17 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think the Toymaker was doing the puppet show to try and make the Doctor feel guilty and to potentially drive a wedge between the Doctor and Donna by making Donna realize that the Doctor's companions sometimes end up with these weird, deeply ambiguous fates. Yaz, Ryan, Graham and Dan don't really fit the Toymaker's point since they all just went back to their normal lives. Actually I'm surprised the Toymaker didn't include Donna in the puppet show. If he wanted to make things awkward for the Doctor and Donna, reminding them of how he mind-wiped her would've seemed like exhibit A.
Point of order - the half-human Doctor is living with Rose in a totally different Universe, so in theory he CAN'T easily reappear to be a third wheel.
Oh, right. It's been long enough that I forgot the whole thing about Rose and 10 being separated by the dimensional barrier. Still, I'm surprised they didn't do more with 10 1/2. At the time I assumed one of the reasons they'd made him half-human was so that he could drop in every 5 years or so and they'd have an excuse for why he looked older.
We didn't spend much time with the new Doctor but it seems pretty clear he's going to be one of the nice ones, with all the hugging and everything. No "ATTACK EYEBROWS" for this guy!
posted by Ursula Hitler at 5:17 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Yaz, Ryan, Graham and Dan don't really fit the Toymaker's point since they all just went back to their normal lives.
Well, Graham and Ryan no doubt associate the Doctor with the death of their wife & gran, respectively, and one could even blame the Doc for it, as many characters do tend to blame the Doctor because bad things happen when he/she/they are around. She also broke Yaz's heart. Plus, Amy & Rory essentially went back to a version of their normal lives.
I'm surprised the Toymaker didn't include Donna in the puppet show.
It was a puppet show about what the Doctor did after he left Donna, how he repeats the same patterns with each -- adventure, you're next to the most amazing person in the universe, then you're dumped back in your life, or dead maybe. Remember how Donna reacted to finding out about Mel (having never heard of her before), and how the Doctor hadn't spent any time talking about her (Donna) to anyone since their time together. The Toymaker was playing on that potential wedge over the Doctor's effect on his companions, which had been referenced in the previous 2 episodes, and has been a common theme in Nu-Who (especially during the whole "'Doctor' is the word for 'warrior' in millions of cultures across the galaxy" phase). Splitting off 14 & 15 and letting 14 shack up with the Nobles seems like RTD's way of closing up that theme, along with the rest of the soft reboot.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:39 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Well, Graham and Ryan no doubt associate the Doctor with the death of their wife & gran, respectively, and one could even blame the Doc for it, as many characters do tend to blame the Doctor because bad things happen when he/she/they are around. She also broke Yaz's heart. Plus, Amy & Rory essentially went back to a version of their normal lives.
I'm surprised the Toymaker didn't include Donna in the puppet show.
It was a puppet show about what the Doctor did after he left Donna, how he repeats the same patterns with each -- adventure, you're next to the most amazing person in the universe, then you're dumped back in your life, or dead maybe. Remember how Donna reacted to finding out about Mel (having never heard of her before), and how the Doctor hadn't spent any time talking about her (Donna) to anyone since their time together. The Toymaker was playing on that potential wedge over the Doctor's effect on his companions, which had been referenced in the previous 2 episodes, and has been a common theme in Nu-Who (especially during the whole "'Doctor' is the word for 'warrior' in millions of cultures across the galaxy" phase). Splitting off 14 & 15 and letting 14 shack up with the Nobles seems like RTD's way of closing up that theme, along with the rest of the soft reboot.
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:39 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
My thoughts:
This episode started out nice and spooky, then it got silly, then sentimental.
This was so obviously a backdoor pilot for a UNIT series that I'm amazed we didn't see a toy helicopter fly in the headquarter's rear entrance.
The problems in all three 60th anniversary specials were solved as much by deus ex machina as by the Doctor's cleverness. In the Giggle, the problem was solved by a deus ex machina (the bigeneration instead of Fourteen dying) followed by a game of catch. No matching of wits. No cunning plan. Just two Doctors and a godlike cosmic horror throwing a juggling ball at each other.
Are we going to get 15th Doctor in his underpants cosplay now?
I really like David Tennant and Catherine Tate together, when they're not mugging it up.
The Stooky Bill stuff really was deliciously eerie. Here's a Radio Times article about the actual puppet.
posted by davidwitteveen at 10:19 PM on December 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
This episode started out nice and spooky, then it got silly, then sentimental.
This was so obviously a backdoor pilot for a UNIT series that I'm amazed we didn't see a toy helicopter fly in the headquarter's rear entrance.
The problems in all three 60th anniversary specials were solved as much by deus ex machina as by the Doctor's cleverness. In the Giggle, the problem was solved by a deus ex machina (the bigeneration instead of Fourteen dying) followed by a game of catch. No matching of wits. No cunning plan. Just two Doctors and a godlike cosmic horror throwing a juggling ball at each other.
Are we going to get 15th Doctor in his underpants cosplay now?
I really like David Tennant and Catherine Tate together, when they're not mugging it up.
The Stooky Bill stuff really was deliciously eerie. Here's a Radio Times article about the actual puppet.
posted by davidwitteveen at 10:19 PM on December 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
"Where will they go?"
"Everywhere."
Anyone else think of Alan Moore and Ian Gibson's Halo Jones when that line came up? The line there is: "Where did she go? Out. What did she do? Everything."
Given that we had a Pat Mills and Dave Gibbons story earlier in the specials, I'd like to think this nod to their old 2000AD colleagues might have been intentional. If so, the timing would be particularly apt, as Gibson is very ill right now.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:39 PM on December 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
"Everywhere."
Anyone else think of Alan Moore and Ian Gibson's Halo Jones when that line came up? The line there is: "Where did she go? Out. What did she do? Everything."
Given that we had a Pat Mills and Dave Gibbons story earlier in the specials, I'd like to think this nod to their old 2000AD colleagues might have been intentional. If so, the timing would be particularly apt, as Gibson is very ill right now.
posted by Paul Slade at 11:39 PM on December 10, 2023 [1 favorite]
How fortunate that Unit had those bracelets handy!
posted by Coaticass at 11:48 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Coaticass at 11:48 PM on December 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
It's honestly so nice to have Davies at the helm again of Doctor Who. Even his flaws as a writer I feel more tolerant of this time around. I think when I was younger I might have been put off by the sheet camp of the Spice Girls song, but I just loved it here. I enjoyed the Toymaker here as a malevolent god who is almost impossible to reason with, the only proviso there being his adherence to the rules of the game.
The ending was probably the weakest, and I've always felt Davies has always struggled with big stories like this having actually satisfying endings; they play catch, and the Toymaker loses. Why does he lose? Well he kind of just does. It feels like maybe there could have been a game where having two Doctors would turn the tide, but I'm not sure catch is that!
I loved the weird horror aspects of this episode, and Harris was just a complete joy throughout. I am so excited for the Christmas episode, which is I haven't been in a very long time!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 2:45 AM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
The ending was probably the weakest, and I've always felt Davies has always struggled with big stories like this having actually satisfying endings; they play catch, and the Toymaker loses. Why does he lose? Well he kind of just does. It feels like maybe there could have been a game where having two Doctors would turn the tide, but I'm not sure catch is that!
I loved the weird horror aspects of this episode, and Harris was just a complete joy throughout. I am so excited for the Christmas episode, which is I haven't been in a very long time!
posted by Cannon Fodder at 2:45 AM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
So a part of me is wondering what happens now on the next time the 14th Doctor is hurt/injured/ages. Has he lost out on regenerating again and so he just dies? Or does he still regenerate again into....someone different?
I actually read a few fanfics (reading fanfiction for the first time in like 20 years), and found one interesting idea - the 14th self that has been running around post-bigeneration will, when he gets to that point, go through a temporal shift and travel back to that UNIT helipad and THAT is the Fifteenth Doctor that bursts out of Fourteenth's side. That's why the Fifteenth Doctor has the benefit of the therapy and healing that the Fourteenth Doctor hasn't gone through yet at that moment.
But I have another idea as well - this is the incarnation that eventually becomes The Curator.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:04 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I actually read a few fanfics (reading fanfiction for the first time in like 20 years), and found one interesting idea - the 14th self that has been running around post-bigeneration will, when he gets to that point, go through a temporal shift and travel back to that UNIT helipad and THAT is the Fifteenth Doctor that bursts out of Fourteenth's side. That's why the Fifteenth Doctor has the benefit of the therapy and healing that the Fourteenth Doctor hasn't gone through yet at that moment.
But I have another idea as well - this is the incarnation that eventually becomes The Curator.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:04 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's a recurring idea that the Doctor hurts his Companions, so it's nice that in this case he can be there for one or two of them for the rest of their lives.
Not just Mel and Donna but the entire Support Group and let me complain about how WE WERE ROBBED of a "Mel brings Donna and 14 to the Support Group" scene -- because if the whole point of leaving Fourteen on Earth with Donna and her family is for him to heal and find joy then putting him in a room with everyone who traveled with him and loved him and is still around is how that healing and joyousness starts
And the reason I say we were robbed is I want you to imagine
David
Fucking
Tennant
walking into that room
he would not have to act even a little bit he would simply sink to his knees and cry
we were ROBBED
posted by tzikeh at 6:38 AM on December 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
Not just Mel and Donna but the entire Support Group and let me complain about how WE WERE ROBBED of a "Mel brings Donna and 14 to the Support Group" scene -- because if the whole point of leaving Fourteen on Earth with Donna and her family is for him to heal and find joy then putting him in a room with everyone who traveled with him and loved him and is still around is how that healing and joyousness starts
And the reason I say we were robbed is I want you to imagine
David
Fucking
Tennant
walking into that room
he would not have to act even a little bit he would simply sink to his knees and cry
we were ROBBED
posted by tzikeh at 6:38 AM on December 11, 2023 [9 favorites]
I have mixed feelings about this episode (including "you couldn't have thought of the bi-generation and the Great Big Magic Mallet for Rose and TenToo, Rusty?" -- sue me, I was invested in Ten and Rose and I think TenToo is a kind of crap consolation prize).
I think it's ridiculous that The Toymaker missed the ball, if he's like, powerful enough to do all of the things he does and did (seriously, leaving the fate of the universe to a game of catch is just... well, it's very Doctor Who, but not it the *good* kind of way).
And there were at least two other red-headed companions before Mel. C'mon, RTD, if you're gonna add Classic Who elements at least get them right.
BUT I do love that Fourteen got his best friend back and has her and her kid and her husband and her mom and her grandad (WILF LIVES) and Mel (AND THE OTHER GODDAMNED COMPANIONS FROM THE SUPPORT GROUP) as his chosen family, and live in his TARDIS in the back garden and take Rose to Mars once in a while.
I love Neil Patrick Harris and I hope we see him again (thought I doubt it), and I am LIVING for Ncuti Gawa. From just what we got here, I think he's going to be an AMAZING Doctor.
Also love how Fifteen added a jukebox, off-loaded all of his emotional trauma onto Fourteen, told him he'd get better, and peaced out to go to a rave. Spectacular introduction.
posted by tzikeh at 6:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think it's ridiculous that The Toymaker missed the ball, if he's like, powerful enough to do all of the things he does and did (seriously, leaving the fate of the universe to a game of catch is just... well, it's very Doctor Who, but not it the *good* kind of way).
And there were at least two other red-headed companions before Mel. C'mon, RTD, if you're gonna add Classic Who elements at least get them right.
BUT I do love that Fourteen got his best friend back and has her and her kid and her husband and her mom and her grandad (WILF LIVES) and Mel (AND THE OTHER GODDAMNED COMPANIONS FROM THE SUPPORT GROUP) as his chosen family, and live in his TARDIS in the back garden and take Rose to Mars once in a while.
I love Neil Patrick Harris and I hope we see him again (thought I doubt it), and I am LIVING for Ncuti Gawa. From just what we got here, I think he's going to be an AMAZING Doctor.
Also love how Fifteen added a jukebox, off-loaded all of his emotional trauma onto Fourteen, told him he'd get better, and peaced out to go to a rave. Spectacular introduction.
posted by tzikeh at 6:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
This was a lot of fun.
I love, love, looooved the Stooky Bill stuff. I’ve read a lot about early television, and was quite impressed how accurately-ish they depicted Baird’s experiment with the doll. But, then they went and spoiled the fun a bit by implying that Baird’s first broadcast included audio which it definitely did not.
The re/bi-generation was fun. I knew something was off when 14 didn’t tell everyone to get back when the regeneration started, given that it’s normally been an explosive event in the past.
Not writing Tenant out of the picture is a bit of an odd choice. Yes, he deserves a rest and a “normal” life, but it really isn’t going to be normal, is it? He’s basically immortal, so he’s still going to see Donna and the others die-off. He still has a TARDIS which he can use to galavant about the universe on a whim. The arrangement feels like RTD writing himself a big get-out-of-jail-free card, wherein he can call-in 14 if things go sideways.
On the other hand, a mini-series of the Doctor seeing a psychologist would be great fun.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:54 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I love, love, looooved the Stooky Bill stuff. I’ve read a lot about early television, and was quite impressed how accurately-ish they depicted Baird’s experiment with the doll. But, then they went and spoiled the fun a bit by implying that Baird’s first broadcast included audio which it definitely did not.
The re/bi-generation was fun. I knew something was off when 14 didn’t tell everyone to get back when the regeneration started, given that it’s normally been an explosive event in the past.
Not writing Tenant out of the picture is a bit of an odd choice. Yes, he deserves a rest and a “normal” life, but it really isn’t going to be normal, is it? He’s basically immortal, so he’s still going to see Donna and the others die-off. He still has a TARDIS which he can use to galavant about the universe on a whim. The arrangement feels like RTD writing himself a big get-out-of-jail-free card, wherein he can call-in 14 if things go sideways.
On the other hand, a mini-series of the Doctor seeing a psychologist would be great fun.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:54 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Also love how Fifteen added a jukebox
The suspicious part of me is thinking "...or is that the Master's TARDIS?" but I can't remember if they've ever definitely declared whether TARDISes can be within one another like that.
posted by Kyol at 7:01 AM on December 11, 2023
The suspicious part of me is thinking "...or is that the Master's TARDIS?" but I can't remember if they've ever definitely declared whether TARDISes can be within one another like that.
posted by Kyol at 7:01 AM on December 11, 2023
I enjoyed the episode and the surprise bi-generation. There's a pretty crushing storyline somewhere down the line when the 10th/14th Doctor is going to be at Donna's death bed as she peacefully dies...and he hasn't aged a bit.
The first episode of the Christmas special is either going to have Ncuti put on a pair of pants or slide into view inside the TARDIS singing "Old Time Rock'n'Roll."
posted by Atreides at 7:35 AM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The first episode of the Christmas special is either going to have Ncuti put on a pair of pants or slide into view inside the TARDIS singing "Old Time Rock'n'Roll."
posted by Atreides at 7:35 AM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
Atreides: There's a pretty crushing storyline somewhere down the line when the 10th/14th Doctor is going to be at Donna's death bed as she peacefully dies...and he hasn't aged a bit.
Part of my mixed feelings about the episode for sure, though it could be argued part of what he needs to work on is accepting his friends' mortality, and that he will outlive them all, rather than running away so he never has to watch them "wither and die," as he once said.
The first episode of the Christmas special is either going to have Ncuti put on a pair of pants or slide into view inside the TARDIS singing "Old Time Rock'n'Roll."
My good MeFite, have you not seen the trailer for the Christmas special?
posted by tzikeh at 7:55 AM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
Part of my mixed feelings about the episode for sure, though it could be argued part of what he needs to work on is accepting his friends' mortality, and that he will outlive them all, rather than running away so he never has to watch them "wither and die," as he once said.
The first episode of the Christmas special is either going to have Ncuti put on a pair of pants or slide into view inside the TARDIS singing "Old Time Rock'n'Roll."
My good MeFite, have you not seen the trailer for the Christmas special?
posted by tzikeh at 7:55 AM on December 11, 2023 [4 favorites]
I really loved this. My head canon from the Dinner with the Family scene is that eventually 14 will revisit yet another old face and become The Curator. Ncuti seems like a perpetual party--the trailer for the Christmas special was really fun--and it will be nice to see some joy radiating from the Doctor. They haven't had much of that recently. I like how 15 told 14 that 14 had fixed himself so 15 was free of all the trauma. Just a nice nod to that fact that 15 is the happy result of 14 living with the Nobles and working on healing himself.
NPH was even better than I thought he would be. The fake German was hilarious and, of course, the dancing and singing were glorious. The dolls were very very creepy. Until Donna got hold of one. "My name's Donna. Now I think that you're a goner." "Anything to add?"
"And the Doctor and Donna lived happily ever after. The End."
posted by ceejaytee at 8:42 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
NPH was even better than I thought he would be. The fake German was hilarious and, of course, the dancing and singing were glorious. The dolls were very very creepy. Until Donna got hold of one. "My name's Donna. Now I think that you're a goner."
"And the Doctor and Donna lived happily ever after. The End."
posted by ceejaytee at 8:42 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
In addition to the Christmas special trailer, the show just released The Goblin Song - Official Lyric Video.
posted by plastic_animals at 9:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by plastic_animals at 9:51 AM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
the show just released The Goblin Song - Official Lyric Video.
Um.
posted by tzikeh at 10:02 AM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Um.
posted by tzikeh at 10:02 AM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
My good MeFite, have you not seen the trailer for the Christmas special yt ?
I hadn't! Now I have! And I'll take this in lieu of sliding through the TARDIS on a pair of white socks. Thank you.
posted by Atreides at 12:31 PM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I hadn't! Now I have! And I'll take this in lieu of sliding through the TARDIS on a pair of white socks. Thank you.
posted by Atreides at 12:31 PM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
I was so overjoyed seeing DoctorDonna again, I wasn't sure I could take the gutpunch of another final goodbye.
I'm so glad it turned out the way it did, and I am SO excited about Gatwa's version of the Doctor!
posted by Space Kitty at 12:41 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm so glad it turned out the way it did, and I am SO excited about Gatwa's version of the Doctor!
posted by Space Kitty at 12:41 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I may now be able to watch to the end of Season Four again... now that I know it turns out okay for Donna eventually.
posted by crossoverman at 1:27 PM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 1:27 PM on December 11, 2023 [5 favorites]
It might not be the Doctor talking through his problems, and it might not be strictly Missy... but I am reminded of this sketch from Pschyobitches with Michelle Gomez ... (sweary in a Scottish way, consider the strong language... punctuation).
posted by ewan at 3:47 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by ewan at 3:47 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
I can't remember if they've ever definitely declared whether TARDISes can be within one another like that.
Happened a couple of times in old Dr Who, with the doctor's TARDIS inside the Master's TARDIS.
posted by biffa at 3:49 PM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Happened a couple of times in old Dr Who, with the doctor's TARDIS inside the Master's TARDIS.
posted by biffa at 3:49 PM on December 11, 2023 [2 favorites]
Happened a couple of times in old Dr Who, with the doctor's TARDIS inside the Master's TARDIS.
Ah, I thought so but I couldn't remember.
posted by Kyol at 6:15 PM on December 11, 2023
Ah, I thought so but I couldn't remember.
posted by Kyol at 6:15 PM on December 11, 2023
I knew RTD would bring the fatphobia back. I KNEW IT.
But idk, I really thought it might take him longer than this?
Hard pass on returning to this show, though Ncuti Gatwa is cute as a bug and looks like a ton of fun.
posted by humbug at 6:57 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
But idk, I really thought it might take him longer than this?
Hard pass on returning to this show, though Ncuti Gatwa is cute as a bug and looks like a ton of fun.
posted by humbug at 6:57 PM on December 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
....Fatphobia?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:07 PM on December 11, 2023
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:07 PM on December 11, 2023
The Slitheen: Look! Fat people are totally gross! That's how you can tell they're villains!
The Adipose: Look! Fat is just these cute little dolls you can wish away! You can tell they're antagonists, though, because their name refers to fat!
And now in the music video we have the King Goblin. I rest my case. RTD can bite my fat ass.
posted by humbug at 8:20 PM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
The Adipose: Look! Fat is just these cute little dolls you can wish away! You can tell they're antagonists, though, because their name refers to fat!
And now in the music video we have the King Goblin. I rest my case. RTD can bite my fat ass.
posted by humbug at 8:20 PM on December 11, 2023 [3 favorites]
It did seem a bit iffy to bring back the Toymaker, infamous for being played in yellowface the first time around. But having him adopt an equally ridiculously bad Cherman accent was both brilliant and hilarious.
posted by rikschell at 5:00 AM on December 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rikschell at 5:00 AM on December 12, 2023 [1 favorite]
Secret Matt Smith cameo?
My impression while watching was that this was The Toymaker himself as the king in the playing card based on the look of the original actor. Looking at the screenshot it still seems more like that than Matt Smith to me.
posted by mikepop at 6:55 AM on December 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
My impression while watching was that this was The Toymaker himself as the king in the playing card based on the look of the original actor. Looking at the screenshot it still seems more like that than Matt Smith to me.
posted by mikepop at 6:55 AM on December 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
...will the jukebox connect in some way to the Clara's Diner!Tardis?
posted by ersatzkat at 9:30 AM on December 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by ersatzkat at 9:30 AM on December 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
While the wheelchair ramp was a thoughtful touch, old school Daleks are going to have a field day in the TARDIS.
posted by dr_dank at 10:23 AM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 10:23 AM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
I've been pondering RTD using the Toymaker as a mouthpiece for calling out Moffatt's companions' fates, and I think it shows a huge philosophical gulf between them - Moffatt's paradigm is essentially transformative: the companions are transfigured into their final states (The Ponds leave behind their magical childhood friend, as it were, for long, happy but ordinary adult lives, like Christopher Robin; Both Clara and Bill become immortal, but in order to do that they need to die to their mortal selves as their apotheosis is something other to their beginning). RTD's model is one of immanence: people become what they really were inside all along. Immanence is very much in the culture at the moment.
Now, as an old straight bloke, I think the transformative model is both psychologically healthier* and narratively more interesting than the immanence model, but I'm curious to see how it works out.
*Probably the first time I've ever considered anything Steven Moffatt as psychologically more healthy than anything RTD.
posted by Grangousier at 11:12 AM on December 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
Now, as an old straight bloke, I think the transformative model is both psychologically healthier* and narratively more interesting than the immanence model, but I'm curious to see how it works out.
*Probably the first time I've ever considered anything Steven Moffatt as psychologically more healthy than anything RTD.
posted by Grangousier at 11:12 AM on December 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
I hadn't seen the goblin song video until humbug's comments above calling out the fat-phobia. I'll wait to see the actual episode, but it also seemed weird on other levels. Some suggest JK Rowling uses goblins as a stand-in for Jewish people, and so the "eating babies" thing seems reminiscent of the blood libel. And even without that connection, there's the QAnon trope that elites are killing and/or eating babies for the "adrenochrome", and that gets connected to the abortion debate. So while it's an enduring horror image it also has some troubling connotations.
posted by Schmucko at 1:09 PM on December 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Schmucko at 1:09 PM on December 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Some suggest JK Rowling uses goblins as a stand-in for Jewish people
A good thread on Twitter about why goblins shouldn't always be read as antisemitic. And why the ones in JK's work might be read that way.
I've been pondering RTD using the Toymaker as a mouthpiece for calling out Moffatt's companions' fates, and I think it shows a huge philosophical gulf between them
I'm not sure that this scene really supports your theory, even though they definitely have different philosophies. I think, specifically, Clara's fate is written as the antidote to Donna's fate - Clara gets to choose to live in that last second of life, where Donna's memories were just taken away from her. Moffat always likes to have his cake and eat it, too - he writes tragic endings but nobody ever really dies. Clara lives on in the Doctor's memories; when he remembers her, just before Capaldi regenerates. RTD takes Donna's memories and leaves her in that state for 15 years - until he comes up with a good reason to fix her.
I also think that RTD's views have changed quite a lot in the intervening years. In some ways, Years & Years and It's A Sin were the most bleak things he's ever written - and yet, he gave those characters a glimmer of hope and strength. I think Ncuti's Doctor represents a turning point. When RTD brough Doctor Who back, the character was defined by trauma. Now he's allowing the Doctor some comfort/hope/fix himself.
Ten was called out for turning his companions into "weapons" and Moffat killed his characters off, even with those outs. "Well, that's alright then" is the perfect sarcastic response. Their fates are worse than if they'd never met the Doctor, no matter how you look at it.
Donna is alive and happy with a $120k a year job and 5 weeks holiday. RTD has turned a corner.
posted by crossoverman at 2:00 PM on December 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
A good thread on Twitter about why goblins shouldn't always be read as antisemitic. And why the ones in JK's work might be read that way.
I've been pondering RTD using the Toymaker as a mouthpiece for calling out Moffatt's companions' fates, and I think it shows a huge philosophical gulf between them
I'm not sure that this scene really supports your theory, even though they definitely have different philosophies. I think, specifically, Clara's fate is written as the antidote to Donna's fate - Clara gets to choose to live in that last second of life, where Donna's memories were just taken away from her. Moffat always likes to have his cake and eat it, too - he writes tragic endings but nobody ever really dies. Clara lives on in the Doctor's memories; when he remembers her, just before Capaldi regenerates. RTD takes Donna's memories and leaves her in that state for 15 years - until he comes up with a good reason to fix her.
I also think that RTD's views have changed quite a lot in the intervening years. In some ways, Years & Years and It's A Sin were the most bleak things he's ever written - and yet, he gave those characters a glimmer of hope and strength. I think Ncuti's Doctor represents a turning point. When RTD brough Doctor Who back, the character was defined by trauma. Now he's allowing the Doctor some comfort/hope/fix himself.
Ten was called out for turning his companions into "weapons" and Moffat killed his characters off, even with those outs. "Well, that's alright then" is the perfect sarcastic response. Their fates are worse than if they'd never met the Doctor, no matter how you look at it.
Donna is alive and happy with a $120k a year job and 5 weeks holiday. RTD has turned a corner.
posted by crossoverman at 2:00 PM on December 12, 2023 [3 favorites]
crossoverman, that's interesting that others had made that connection too. I don't find Max Kashevsky's thread all that convincing. The point that the blood libel is not about actually eating babies seems a stretch. I saw on twitter, post-Elon takeover, a reply post in response to a prominent Black Jewish activist, what appeared to be a painting of a bunch of stereotypically Jewish men eating a baby--it took me a while to even recognize what was going on. It's definitely part of the QAnon mythos. The worry is not that these things are explicit or allegorical stand-ins but that there's crossover between the myth and the prejudice.
posted by Schmucko at 2:59 PM on December 12, 2023
posted by Schmucko at 2:59 PM on December 12, 2023
Surely there’s some sort of joke to be made about this regeneration being some kind of binary paradox (“pair o’ docs”)?
posted by transient at 4:01 PM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by transient at 4:01 PM on December 12, 2023 [6 favorites]
weird that the laser thing cut right through the doctor, wholesale destroyed a satellite in orbit, but just scorched the ground behind the doctor. I guess the toymaker dialed back the power.
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:54 PM on December 12, 2023
posted by the antecedent of that pronoun at 7:54 PM on December 12, 2023
Donna is alive and happy with a $120k a year job and 5 weeks holiday.
Did you notice how often UNIT personnel don't make it to the end of the episode?
posted by biffa at 12:52 AM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Did you notice how often UNIT personnel don't make it to the end of the episode?
posted by biffa at 12:52 AM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Unnamed UNIT personnel.
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 4:09 AM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by polytope subirb enby-of-piano-dice at 4:09 AM on December 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
NPH is well-known in LA magic circles and was president of the Magic Castle board for a time. Those crazy shuffles and cuts with the cards were his own work.
posted by dr_dank at 5:26 AM on December 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by dr_dank at 5:26 AM on December 13, 2023 [6 favorites]
Those crazy shuffles and cuts with the cards were his own work.
I think in one of the "making of" videos linked above Neil says that yes, it is his work, but in the past he hasn't also had to be saying complicated lines in a hideous German accent while doing it, so he was kinda sweating bullets a little. (I think in the same video he also confessed that the chaotic overload of puppets and juggling and costumes and dancing and singing was "what it's like inside my own head all the time".)
Speaking of which - have another making-of video focusing on the "Spice Up Your Life" sequence, including a couple moments of David Tennant and Bonnie Langford doing a little rump-shaking to the song behind the scenes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:34 AM on December 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
I think in one of the "making of" videos linked above Neil says that yes, it is his work, but in the past he hasn't also had to be saying complicated lines in a hideous German accent while doing it, so he was kinda sweating bullets a little. (I think in the same video he also confessed that the chaotic overload of puppets and juggling and costumes and dancing and singing was "what it's like inside my own head all the time".)
Speaking of which - have another making-of video focusing on the "Spice Up Your Life" sequence, including a couple moments of David Tennant and Bonnie Langford doing a little rump-shaking to the song behind the scenes.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:34 AM on December 13, 2023 [4 favorites]
damnit I had only just managed to get the spice up your life earworm out of my head and now there's another BTS video
posted by Kyol at 6:52 AM on December 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Kyol at 6:52 AM on December 13, 2023 [2 favorites]
weird that the laser thing cut right through the doctor, wholesale destroyed a satellite in orbit, but just scorched the ground behind the doctor. I guess the toymaker dialed back the power.
Presumably the Doctor absorbed a certain level of the intensity of the beam since he didn't immediately just explode into meat chunks.
posted by Atreides at 11:41 AM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Presumably the Doctor absorbed a certain level of the intensity of the beam since he didn't immediately just explode into meat chunks.
posted by Atreides at 11:41 AM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Did you notice how often UNIT personnel don't make it to the end of the episode?
UNIT is not TORCHWOOD.
posted by crossoverman at 1:59 PM on December 13, 2023
UNIT is not TORCHWOOD.
posted by crossoverman at 1:59 PM on December 13, 2023
damnit I had only just managed to get the spice up your life earworm out of my head
I've finally found an ep of DW worth thinking about after many years and it comes with this delightful/maddening side-effect.
posted by crossoverman at 2:00 PM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I've finally found an ep of DW worth thinking about after many years and it comes with this delightful/maddening side-effect.
posted by crossoverman at 2:00 PM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
UNIT is not TORCHWOOD
Evidently. UNIT has appeared in way more episodes and have much higher casualties. 16 deaths in this episode alone.
posted by biffa at 3:08 PM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Evidently. UNIT has appeared in way more episodes and have much higher casualties. 16 deaths in this episode alone.
posted by biffa at 3:08 PM on December 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
The novelization of this episode offers some extra details including that 14 bought a house.
The garden party at the end of the episode takes place outside of Fourteen’s house!! Idiot saw an ad for it, thought it “looked happy”, then — after checking with the real estate agent that it had a nice corridor, an essential need— tried to buy it, sight unseen, with 60 pounds cash. Eventually, he calls up Kate and collects the salary UNIT has owed him for 50-plus years to buy it. Oh and he’s eligible for a lovely pension too. Wilf moves into his ground floor Sun Room — 14 made sure there was one! - and although the rest of the Nobles technically still own a London home, they rarely leave the Doctors’. Even Sylvia.posted by Servo5678 at 5:59 AM on December 15, 2023 [4 favorites]
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posted by Blue Jello Elf at 11:45 AM on December 9, 2023 [9 favorites]