The Acolyte: The Acolyte
July 17, 2024 6:07 AM - Season 1, Episode 8 - Subscribe
Confrontation and revelation await.
I feel like my brain is still processing this one. Seemed like a satisfyingly dark ending, though a lot of plot elements seem to be waiting for another season.
Really the same. I enjoyed it, and I'm glad they didn't try to cram it into 28 minutes or something.
This was the first time we have seen someone "bleed" a kyber crystal in live action. It has happened previously in the novels/comic books, as has a Force user "cleaning/healing" the crystal, too. Though, this may be the first time it happens almost unconsciously. I was here for it and it really drew my attention to the point that for the entirety of the episode, Mae and Osha had swapped positions between light and dark, and it was reflected right down to their outfits.
I kept waiting for Sol to say it was an accident by which he killed the Mother, but naw, he just owned it (rationalized it) by claiming it was justified in protecting the girls. The missionary zeal within Sol really blossomed in this conclusion and perhaps Vernestra eulogized him well enough noting his great qualities, but also noting, he had made a terrible decision. Did he deserve to be thrown under the bus? No, but only so much as the truth of what really happened should have been shared. A truth, for Vernestra, at least, that was unclear and only clouded further by the realization that her former padawan was....alive? And for us, she had a former padawan that had turned evil. And incidentally, uses the reveal that there was a Jedi cover up to...potentially cover up another problem. Her problem.
This story has been promised, or at least indicated as one that would be explored in as second season....so let's hope we get it!
I'm still not 100% sure what Mae and Osha are. Force clones? Why wouldn't their blood samples support Sol's argument?
Osha's anger was whispered to us as the thing not explained as to why she had to leave the Order, but I think I would have appreciated more outbursts leading up to our finale. She definitely had pent up rage and I want to go back and rewatch Jung-Jae's expressions whenever Osha talked about Mae killing her family.
I'm still absorbing it all. Gosh. The lightsaber duel between Sol and Qimir was pretty great and well choreographed. Sol's repeated use of igniting and turning off his lightsaber was something wonderful that we hadn't seen before this series. Qimer's attempt to force Sol's lightsaber into his helmet to short circuit it, also awesome, as was basically his turn to trying to use a Katana / Wakizashi was cool.
Special cameo appearances go to Yoda and what is 100% most likely, Darth Plagueis. Plagueis for those who think the name sounds familiar is supposed to be Palpatine's/Sidious' master and it was his quest for immortality that Palpatine relates to Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. What was not clear was whether Plagueis is Qimir's master or just coming upon him, or he is Qimir's master, but didn't know about Qimir's hunger for an acolyte of his own, or if he is Qimir's master, and instructed Qimir to get an acolyte for whatever reason. THEORY He is Qimir's master, and he specifically ordered Qimir to recruit either Mae or Osha because of their special status as being created from the Force - i.e., life from the Force, which might be handy to know if you want to extend one's own life through it.
posted by Atreides at 6:46 AM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
Really the same. I enjoyed it, and I'm glad they didn't try to cram it into 28 minutes or something.
This was the first time we have seen someone "bleed" a kyber crystal in live action. It has happened previously in the novels/comic books, as has a Force user "cleaning/healing" the crystal, too. Though, this may be the first time it happens almost unconsciously. I was here for it and it really drew my attention to the point that for the entirety of the episode, Mae and Osha had swapped positions between light and dark, and it was reflected right down to their outfits.
I kept waiting for Sol to say it was an accident by which he killed the Mother, but naw, he just owned it (rationalized it) by claiming it was justified in protecting the girls. The missionary zeal within Sol really blossomed in this conclusion and perhaps Vernestra eulogized him well enough noting his great qualities, but also noting, he had made a terrible decision. Did he deserve to be thrown under the bus? No, but only so much as the truth of what really happened should have been shared. A truth, for Vernestra, at least, that was unclear and only clouded further by the realization that her former padawan was....alive? And for us, she had a former padawan that had turned evil. And incidentally, uses the reveal that there was a Jedi cover up to...potentially cover up another problem. Her problem.
This story has been promised, or at least indicated as one that would be explored in as second season....so let's hope we get it!
I'm still not 100% sure what Mae and Osha are. Force clones? Why wouldn't their blood samples support Sol's argument?
Osha's anger was whispered to us as the thing not explained as to why she had to leave the Order, but I think I would have appreciated more outbursts leading up to our finale. She definitely had pent up rage and I want to go back and rewatch Jung-Jae's expressions whenever Osha talked about Mae killing her family.
I'm still absorbing it all. Gosh. The lightsaber duel between Sol and Qimir was pretty great and well choreographed. Sol's repeated use of igniting and turning off his lightsaber was something wonderful that we hadn't seen before this series. Qimer's attempt to force Sol's lightsaber into his helmet to short circuit it, also awesome, as was basically his turn to trying to use a Katana / Wakizashi was cool.
Special cameo appearances go to Yoda and what is 100% most likely, Darth Plagueis. Plagueis for those who think the name sounds familiar is supposed to be Palpatine's/Sidious' master and it was his quest for immortality that Palpatine relates to Anakin in Revenge of the Sith. What was not clear was whether Plagueis is Qimir's master or just coming upon him, or he is Qimir's master, but didn't know about Qimir's hunger for an acolyte of his own, or if he is Qimir's master, and instructed Qimir to get an acolyte for whatever reason. THEORY He is Qimir's master, and he specifically ordered Qimir to recruit either Mae or Osha because of their special status as being created from the Force - i.e., life from the Force, which might be handy to know if you want to extend one's own life through it.
posted by Atreides at 6:46 AM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
I thought that it was a good end to an OK series. For most of the series, Osha and Mae aren't really effective. Osha can't use the force when the prison ship goes down, and Mae wins her fights through trickery, not force abilities. Here, Osha almost kills Qimir accidentally, and does kill Sol using straight up force powers.
I liked the fight, and Sol eventually taking out Qimir's saber. It worked well as straight up tragedy. A ton of sympathetic Jedi killed, Mae's memory was wiped, and Osha's fallen to the dark side. It would have been better if for most of the series, the girls had been more proactive, rather than being along for the ride, but overall, I enjoyed it.
posted by Spike Glee at 7:39 AM on July 17, 2024 [4 favorites]
I liked the fight, and Sol eventually taking out Qimir's saber. It worked well as straight up tragedy. A ton of sympathetic Jedi killed, Mae's memory was wiped, and Osha's fallen to the dark side. It would have been better if for most of the series, the girls had been more proactive, rather than being along for the ride, but overall, I enjoyed it.
posted by Spike Glee at 7:39 AM on July 17, 2024 [4 favorites]
A solid landing! This whole show has been at the high end of mid for me, with occasional flashes of something more brilliant. I really hope they get a second season. Mostly for all the High Republic stuff, I'd be fine with the Mae / Osha storyline coming to a conclusion and them moving to background characters.
I really enjoyed David Harewood coming on screen as Senator Skeptic. Finally someone to speak truth to the Jedi's bullshit. This theme in the High Republic is so interesting to me, how being in power corrupts even the Jedi. Harewood is kind of a big deal actor, it would be natural to expand his role in upcomignshows.
I loved the ambiguity in the end where Jedi Master Vernestra Rwoh does the cover up. She lies and throws Sol under the bus, blaming him for the other dead Jedi and hiding the role of Qimir (her former pupil!). But also her narrative is kind of truthy, a political expedient that preserves the larger order of things and the Jedi's power. Definitely ambiguous and mostly bad, but not purely Darth evil either.
Also poor Sol. I love that Osha finally kills him with some force powers and saying "Stop Talking". Such a weak man, well meaning but misguided and.. he talked too much! Osha shut him up. Forever. Delicious.
posted by Nelson at 7:59 AM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
I really enjoyed David Harewood coming on screen as Senator Skeptic. Finally someone to speak truth to the Jedi's bullshit. This theme in the High Republic is so interesting to me, how being in power corrupts even the Jedi. Harewood is kind of a big deal actor, it would be natural to expand his role in upcomignshows.
I loved the ambiguity in the end where Jedi Master Vernestra Rwoh does the cover up. She lies and throws Sol under the bus, blaming him for the other dead Jedi and hiding the role of Qimir (her former pupil!). But also her narrative is kind of truthy, a political expedient that preserves the larger order of things and the Jedi's power. Definitely ambiguous and mostly bad, but not purely Darth evil either.
Also poor Sol. I love that Osha finally kills him with some force powers and saying "Stop Talking". Such a weak man, well meaning but misguided and.. he talked too much! Osha shut him up. Forever. Delicious.
posted by Nelson at 7:59 AM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
Small thing I noticed during the choking scene. Osha used the same hand gesture as Vader does when choking people.
posted by Atreides at 8:56 AM on July 17, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Atreides at 8:56 AM on July 17, 2024 [1 favorite]
Meh.
It was cool to see that Jedi are all apparently Wuxia now though.
posted by Faintdreams at 9:03 AM on July 17, 2024
It was cool to see that Jedi are all apparently Wuxia now though.
posted by Faintdreams at 9:03 AM on July 17, 2024
This series probably has the best fight scenes of anything Star Wars. Worth it to me for that alone.
posted by kokaku at 9:42 AM on July 17, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 9:42 AM on July 17, 2024 [8 favorites]
This theme in the High Republic is so interesting to me, how being in power corrupts even the Jedi.
I'd be far more interested if this took place after Rise of Skywalker. Watching a series trying to reform the Jedi would be interesting. Seeing this poor senator get ignored in the rise to fascism is ultimately kind of tiring.
posted by Gary at 11:40 AM on July 17, 2024 [1 favorite]
I'd be far more interested if this took place after Rise of Skywalker. Watching a series trying to reform the Jedi would be interesting. Seeing this poor senator get ignored in the rise to fascism is ultimately kind of tiring.
posted by Gary at 11:40 AM on July 17, 2024 [1 favorite]
I agree about the fight scenes. As much as everyone flips out over the Anakin/Obi-Wan fight in ROTS, this series has had the best lightsaber action outside of the throne room scene in TLJ for me.
posted by donatella at 11:40 AM on July 17, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by donatella at 11:40 AM on July 17, 2024 [4 favorites]
I'm not ready to give up on Pip - there is still good in him/her/they.
posted by Molesome at 11:44 AM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by Molesome at 11:44 AM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
The plan at the end was that Osha had to go into hiding but Mae could go be with the Jedi. But Mae killed a bunch of Jedi too. Is the statute of limitations really short in the High Republic or is "I forgot I did that" a valid defense in a murder trial?
posted by Gary at 11:44 AM on July 17, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by Gary at 11:44 AM on July 17, 2024 [4 favorites]
IIRC, Plagueis creating life was a precursor to his real goal, which was immortality via body swapping. (Like Palpatine did in the "somehow, he returned" era.) So my guess is that the witch-mother wanted kids, and DP assisted, possibly with the intent to steal those bodies for himself.
That all said, personally, I just find myself really freakin' tired of Jedi/Sith stuff. Ahsoka got a lot more interesting when she looked at the Jedi Order and said "Actually, this is broken. I'm out".
Over in an adjacent media property, it's been genuinely interesting to watch writers engage with and canonize the "Magneto Was Right" idea that Grant Morrison originally created as a joke about kids wearing slogans as shirts but lacking understanding. Regardless of their intent, Grant's idea caught on with fans who have now become writers themselves.
I'm avoiding spoilers, but anyone reading the X-books this summer will understand that Professor X, Magneto, and even Apocalypse all end up in very different spaces with respect to the worlds they were trying to create than they ever predicted.
Seeing those characters grapple with that reality should make for some interesting stories. IMO, Jedi stuff really needs something similar.
posted by FallibleHuman at 12:04 PM on July 17, 2024 [1 favorite]
That all said, personally, I just find myself really freakin' tired of Jedi/Sith stuff. Ahsoka got a lot more interesting when she looked at the Jedi Order and said "Actually, this is broken. I'm out".
Over in an adjacent media property, it's been genuinely interesting to watch writers engage with and canonize the "Magneto Was Right" idea that Grant Morrison originally created as a joke about kids wearing slogans as shirts but lacking understanding. Regardless of their intent, Grant's idea caught on with fans who have now become writers themselves.
I'm avoiding spoilers, but anyone reading the X-books this summer will understand that Professor X, Magneto, and even Apocalypse all end up in very different spaces with respect to the worlds they were trying to create than they ever predicted.
Seeing those characters grapple with that reality should make for some interesting stories. IMO, Jedi stuff really needs something similar.
posted by FallibleHuman at 12:04 PM on July 17, 2024 [1 favorite]
It would have been nice if they'd decided that Jedi uniforms in the High Republic could be more practical than the ridiculous cloaks of the late republic. Maybe not ROTJ Skywalker, but maybe make the cloaks shorter or something.
I hope Darth Plagueis wasn't involve in the birth of Osha and Mae; it'd be nice if the witches had their own thing, independent of the Sith.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 3:22 PM on July 17, 2024 [2 favorites]
I hope Darth Plagueis wasn't involve in the birth of Osha and Mae; it'd be nice if the witches had their own thing, independent of the Sith.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 3:22 PM on July 17, 2024 [2 favorites]
Unless I completely bail on a series, I never know how I really feel about until it’s over. In the final accounting, it’s the ending that determines what precedes it.
The Acolyte landed perfectly for me. However, before I get to the things that I liked, I want to say what it is that bothered me. Basically, I still feel I don’t really understand what happened on Brendok all those years ago. It feels like originally there were supposed to be three flashbacks, but one got cut out. I expected to understand more, but parts of it are still really opaque to me. Like, I still don’t really understand what the witches were up to, who survived, and what it was that the Jedi were so worried about. I can guess based on lore, but I don’t know. But that’s enough quibbling.
I loved loved loved loved the fight between Sol and Qimir. I honestly can’t think of a better laser sword duel. Some may be its equal, but nothing surpasses it. I felt like I got a deeper exploration of those two characters than in any dialogue. The way that Sol was in perfect flow, until his own past came and choked him. How Qimir had to rely on trickery and yet came up short, ultimately only surviving because he was saved by someone who was more powerful than he was, if also more of a blunt instrument. I feel like I have a really good grasp on them as characters after their fight.
Even though the pacing was a bit weird, like it’s been through the whole story, I thought the writers were very efficient in getting the characters to move from point A to point B, both emotionally and physically. I thought it was well done, how they got Mae and Osha from far-flung places to the same room, where they could continue their emotional journey between darkness and light. I think it’s very interesting how they balance each other thematically.
On the whole, I thought this series was at its best when it was firmly within the wuxia genre, just folks whose swords are almost as big as their emotions. For the most part, the show leaned into that. Wisely, that’s where they went in the finale. A show like this will be remembered more for the cool moments rather than larger thematic coherence, and it delivered in spades. This hasn’t displaced Andor as my favorite Star Wars TV, but I’d say The Acolyte is in the same general class as The Mandalorian. Though it lacks the purity of the latter. My dream is that in the second season they just go full wuxia, but even if they retain the things I was less thrilled by, I’m excited to see more.
posted by Kattullus at 4:10 PM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
The Acolyte landed perfectly for me. However, before I get to the things that I liked, I want to say what it is that bothered me. Basically, I still feel I don’t really understand what happened on Brendok all those years ago. It feels like originally there were supposed to be three flashbacks, but one got cut out. I expected to understand more, but parts of it are still really opaque to me. Like, I still don’t really understand what the witches were up to, who survived, and what it was that the Jedi were so worried about. I can guess based on lore, but I don’t know. But that’s enough quibbling.
I loved loved loved loved the fight between Sol and Qimir. I honestly can’t think of a better laser sword duel. Some may be its equal, but nothing surpasses it. I felt like I got a deeper exploration of those two characters than in any dialogue. The way that Sol was in perfect flow, until his own past came and choked him. How Qimir had to rely on trickery and yet came up short, ultimately only surviving because he was saved by someone who was more powerful than he was, if also more of a blunt instrument. I feel like I have a really good grasp on them as characters after their fight.
Even though the pacing was a bit weird, like it’s been through the whole story, I thought the writers were very efficient in getting the characters to move from point A to point B, both emotionally and physically. I thought it was well done, how they got Mae and Osha from far-flung places to the same room, where they could continue their emotional journey between darkness and light. I think it’s very interesting how they balance each other thematically.
On the whole, I thought this series was at its best when it was firmly within the wuxia genre, just folks whose swords are almost as big as their emotions. For the most part, the show leaned into that. Wisely, that’s where they went in the finale. A show like this will be remembered more for the cool moments rather than larger thematic coherence, and it delivered in spades. This hasn’t displaced Andor as my favorite Star Wars TV, but I’d say The Acolyte is in the same general class as The Mandalorian. Though it lacks the purity of the latter. My dream is that in the second season they just go full wuxia, but even if they retain the things I was less thrilled by, I’m excited to see more.
posted by Kattullus at 4:10 PM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
I'm glad I stuck with the series, but I think it was very strangely edited and paced. Even the ending, with Qimir and Osha staring off over the water, seemed to cut very abruptly to the Yoda cameo; it felt like it was intended as a post-credits scene or something but they decided that Star Wars didn't do those so they tacked it on. Many of the episodes ended at an awkward point; this one really drove it home where it picked up, almost like they had cut a bunch of episodes into two almost at random points.
But, it did have some of the best lightsaber battles we've seen.
Question: Why did Bazil sabotage Sol's ship? Seemed like a pretty drastic measure to take considering, y'know, he was on it, too.
posted by synecdoche at 5:35 PM on July 17, 2024 [4 favorites]
But, it did have some of the best lightsaber battles we've seen.
Question: Why did Bazil sabotage Sol's ship? Seemed like a pretty drastic measure to take considering, y'know, he was on it, too.
posted by synecdoche at 5:35 PM on July 17, 2024 [4 favorites]
Why did Bazil sabotage Sol's ship?
Yeah, I think we still don’t know something about Bazil that we’ll learn in a second season, if we get one. Definitely felt like a loose thread and I didn’t love it.
posted by potent_cyprus at 6:10 PM on July 17, 2024 [1 favorite]
Yeah, I think we still don’t know something about Bazil that we’ll learn in a second season, if we get one. Definitely felt like a loose thread and I didn’t love it.
posted by potent_cyprus at 6:10 PM on July 17, 2024 [1 favorite]
I thought he just sabotaged the weapons, since Sol was about to get a lock.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 6:22 PM on July 17, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 6:22 PM on July 17, 2024 [3 favorites]
I guess I know that the Jedi are problematic but, like, we didn't know that for the first three movies and I want my good Jedi back. This to me just feels like Star Wars for the MAGA crowd and I'm a lil tired of it.
posted by cooker girl at 6:52 PM on July 17, 2024
posted by cooker girl at 6:52 PM on July 17, 2024
I loved loved loved loved the fight between Sol and Qimir. I honestly can’t think of a better laser sword duel
Truly a more civilized age
posted by eustatic at 10:04 PM on July 17, 2024 [2 favorites]
Truly a more civilized age
posted by eustatic at 10:04 PM on July 17, 2024 [2 favorites]
Not specifically this episode but an observation of the premise of the series overall; it's one of the first franchise products to properly embrace 'ACAB applies to the Jedi too'. And good! George Lucas made them space cops
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:12 PM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 11:12 PM on July 17, 2024 [5 favorites]
Why did Bazil sabotage Sol's ship?
I expect the answer is, boringly, that he could tell Mae was Good now, because his race is secretly Force sensitive.
posted by coriolisdave at 1:49 AM on July 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
I expect the answer is, boringly, that he could tell Mae was Good now, because his race is secretly Force sensitive.
posted by coriolisdave at 1:49 AM on July 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
Bazil is such an unusual character. He occupies a similar niche to droids: a capable servant, somewhat intelligent but not really an independent person. But he's flesh and blood! He wears clothes! The only thing that marks him as lesser is his lack of speech. (I like to imagine he can speak but doesn't bother because the fools he's with have nothing of interest to say to him.) Maybe he's more like a dog then. But he wears clothes! And uses tools!
I took his sabotage of Sol's ship as him just having better moral sense than Sol.The plot force of "no really, Sol shouldn't kill Mae in space" made animate through the demi-human. It says a lot about how lost Sol is that his tracker hound is smarter and more ethical than the fancy Jedi.
posted by Nelson at 7:25 AM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
I took his sabotage of Sol's ship as him just having better moral sense than Sol.The plot force of "no really, Sol shouldn't kill Mae in space" made animate through the demi-human. It says a lot about how lost Sol is that his tracker hound is smarter and more ethical than the fancy Jedi.
posted by Nelson at 7:25 AM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
I've been wondering a lot about Bazil. He's basically an Ewok who's been introduced to a higher level of technology. He was perfectly fine with helping Sol (I think?) capture Mae, and while Sol was targeting Mae, I don't feel like he was going to kill her so much as disable her craft. Bazil's sabotage put everyone at risk, so I don't even know if Bazil knew 100% what he was doing. It was a choice! I expect Maggie Lovitt will have another 5k word interview with the creator who will answer that question.
It would have been nice if they'd decided that Jedi uniforms in the High Republic could be more practical than the ridiculous cloaks of the late republic. Maybe not ROTJ Skywalker, but maybe make the cloaks shorter or something.
It's actually the reverse based on the High Republic material. At the outset of that process, the Jedi had even fancier robes and ornate lightsaber hilts.
I guess I know that the Jedi are problematic but, like, we didn't know that for the first three movies and I want my good Jedi back. This to me just feels like Star Wars for the MAGA crowd and I'm a lil tired of it.
I had a friend who recently posted the same, wishing we had a tv show or something from the earlier stage of the High Republic. If you haven't, the High Republic book/comic book project really offers a lot of that type of Jedi. It's really enjoyable.
posted by Atreides at 10:26 AM on July 18, 2024
It would have been nice if they'd decided that Jedi uniforms in the High Republic could be more practical than the ridiculous cloaks of the late republic. Maybe not ROTJ Skywalker, but maybe make the cloaks shorter or something.
It's actually the reverse based on the High Republic material. At the outset of that process, the Jedi had even fancier robes and ornate lightsaber hilts.
I guess I know that the Jedi are problematic but, like, we didn't know that for the first three movies and I want my good Jedi back. This to me just feels like Star Wars for the MAGA crowd and I'm a lil tired of it.
I had a friend who recently posted the same, wishing we had a tv show or something from the earlier stage of the High Republic. If you haven't, the High Republic book/comic book project really offers a lot of that type of Jedi. It's really enjoyable.
posted by Atreides at 10:26 AM on July 18, 2024
This to me just feels like Star Wars for the MAGA crowd and I'm a lil tired of it.
You’re under no obligation to explain further, but I’m curious what you mean by this. Especially given the harsh rebuke of the show by that exact crowd, calling to “woke” and other nonsense.
In my mind, the MAGA crowd are the ones who want to see Jedi as an omnipotent, omniscient police force who can do no wrong; a far cry from what we get here and in The Last Jedi.
posted by potent_cyprus at 11:26 AM on July 18, 2024 [5 favorites]
You’re under no obligation to explain further, but I’m curious what you mean by this. Especially given the harsh rebuke of the show by that exact crowd, calling to “woke” and other nonsense.
In my mind, the MAGA crowd are the ones who want to see Jedi as an omnipotent, omniscient police force who can do no wrong; a far cry from what we get here and in The Last Jedi.
posted by potent_cyprus at 11:26 AM on July 18, 2024 [5 favorites]
This to me just feels like Star Wars for the MAGA crowd and I'm a lil tired of it.
I’m curious what you mean by this. Especially given the harsh rebuke of the show by that exact crowd, calling to “woke” and other nonsense.
It's true, the MAGA/Fandom Menace chuds have come out solidly against the show, solely on the basis of it having nonwhite leads, an LGBTQ showrunner, and vague indications of *gasp* queerness existing in Star Wars.
They aren't concerned with *content* or *ideas*, per se, hence their embrace of online episode review-bombing that starts hours before each installment even AIRS. We can presume that many of them are only keeping up with the show through listening to angry Youtubers screeching about "forced diversity" or how some throwaway detail violates canon or whatever. They're not engaging the with the ideas because their objections are purely surface-level and based on shallow right-wing identity politics.
OTOH, there's also the actual themes of the show, particularly its treatment of the early failures of the Jedi to live up to their self-generated hype, and of the Republic's dependence and lack of skepticism towards the Jedi's power.
We get a lot of these details from the perspective of rejected dark-side Force users, so it does start to feel maybe like the show is flirting with some of the "Dark Enlightenment"/"intellectual dark web" ideas that fuels the alt-right movement and has in turn trickled down to the MAGA folks in a less rarified form.
I'm not saying that Headland is sympathetic to those viewpoints or trying to sneak them into the discourse, but I think the show does at least want us to question the motives of the Jedi/High Republic establishment while also considering whether some non-Jedi-aligned force users (if not the Sith per se) might have had a legitimate beef.
And I can see how viewers just looking for a little more traditional escapism from their space opera might not be into that! I'm curious to follow where Headland and the Lucasfilm story group folks are going with all of this, if they elect to tell more live-action stories in the High Republic setting.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:06 PM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
I’m curious what you mean by this. Especially given the harsh rebuke of the show by that exact crowd, calling to “woke” and other nonsense.
It's true, the MAGA/Fandom Menace chuds have come out solidly against the show, solely on the basis of it having nonwhite leads, an LGBTQ showrunner, and vague indications of *gasp* queerness existing in Star Wars.
They aren't concerned with *content* or *ideas*, per se, hence their embrace of online episode review-bombing that starts hours before each installment even AIRS. We can presume that many of them are only keeping up with the show through listening to angry Youtubers screeching about "forced diversity" or how some throwaway detail violates canon or whatever. They're not engaging the with the ideas because their objections are purely surface-level and based on shallow right-wing identity politics.
OTOH, there's also the actual themes of the show, particularly its treatment of the early failures of the Jedi to live up to their self-generated hype, and of the Republic's dependence and lack of skepticism towards the Jedi's power.
We get a lot of these details from the perspective of rejected dark-side Force users, so it does start to feel maybe like the show is flirting with some of the "Dark Enlightenment"/"intellectual dark web" ideas that fuels the alt-right movement and has in turn trickled down to the MAGA folks in a less rarified form.
I'm not saying that Headland is sympathetic to those viewpoints or trying to sneak them into the discourse, but I think the show does at least want us to question the motives of the Jedi/High Republic establishment while also considering whether some non-Jedi-aligned force users (if not the Sith per se) might have had a legitimate beef.
And I can see how viewers just looking for a little more traditional escapism from their space opera might not be into that! I'm curious to follow where Headland and the Lucasfilm story group folks are going with all of this, if they elect to tell more live-action stories in the High Republic setting.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:06 PM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
I'm not saying that Headland is sympathetic to those viewpoints or trying to sneak them into the discourse, but I think the show does at least want us to question the motives of the Jedi/High Republic establishment while also considering whether some non-Jedi-aligned force users (if not the Sith per se) might have had a legitimate beef.
This is exactly what she set out to do. She described the show as coming from a Sith point of view and this falls in line with that POV.
posted by Atreides at 1:00 PM on July 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
This is exactly what she set out to do. She described the show as coming from a Sith point of view and this falls in line with that POV.
posted by Atreides at 1:00 PM on July 18, 2024 [1 favorite]
You’re under no obligation to explain further, but I’m curious what you mean by this.
Idk, really, probably as simple as it feels like they took my good guys (the Jedi) and turned them evil (made them into the very worst kind of Space Cops and kidnappers). And MAGAs, to me, are pretty danged evil.
I have zero interest in Star Wars As Told By The Sith. I want to go back to the Jedi being a bunch of force-sensitive hippies who helped the resistance defeat the Empire. I guess this new direction isn't for me.
posted by cooker girl at 1:33 PM on July 18, 2024
Idk, really, probably as simple as it feels like they took my good guys (the Jedi) and turned them evil (made them into the very worst kind of Space Cops and kidnappers). And MAGAs, to me, are pretty danged evil.
I have zero interest in Star Wars As Told By The Sith. I want to go back to the Jedi being a bunch of force-sensitive hippies who helped the resistance defeat the Empire. I guess this new direction isn't for me.
posted by cooker girl at 1:33 PM on July 18, 2024
The closed captions state Bazil is speaking in an alien language but gives no translation 🙃
posted by funkaspuck at 2:04 PM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by funkaspuck at 2:04 PM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
Why did they erase Mae’s memories? The ship was plenty big enough for three people to escape. Or steal Sols ship since he doesn’t need it anymore.
posted by autopilot at 2:58 PM on July 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by autopilot at 2:58 PM on July 18, 2024 [2 favorites]
The ship was plenty big enough for three people to escape.
As Funkaspuck points out, there is the Rule of Two. Qimir was not likely to take on two apprentices, and he probably wanted to minimize the traces he was going to leave out there for the Jedi to pick up on (especially after he recognized that his old master was among them). So it was either wipe her memory or kill her.
That moment actually struck me when I was watching. The presentation seemed to want Qimir to come across as a good guy, even though he's a Sith who has killed a whole bunch of Jedi.
posted by synecdoche at 3:23 PM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
As Funkaspuck points out, there is the Rule of Two. Qimir was not likely to take on two apprentices, and he probably wanted to minimize the traces he was going to leave out there for the Jedi to pick up on (especially after he recognized that his old master was among them). So it was either wipe her memory or kill her.
That moment actually struck me when I was watching. The presentation seemed to want Qimir to come across as a good guy, even though he's a Sith who has killed a whole bunch of Jedi.
posted by synecdoche at 3:23 PM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
cooker girl: force-sensitive hippies who helped the resistance defeat the Empire
You may well have already seen Rebels, but that is kinda how the Jedi are depicted in the show.
Personally, I didn’t saw the Jedi that way when I first saw the films. In the original movie, it was fairly clear that Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader were basically two paths along the same sorcerer’s ways. Before he dies, the old space wizard in the desert is faintly sinister.
I’ll admit that Yoda is everyone’s favorite little guy, and he fits pretty squarely in the ‘wise old sage’ archetype, but he’s pretty much the only other Jedi we see in the original films besides Obi-Wan.
This may be because I saw Seven Samurais at an impressionable age, but my personal view of Jedi was always more that they were kind of like ronin, masterless warriors adrift from a culture that had no particular need for them, unless a grave danger threatened society.
It wasn’t really until I started to read extended universe books and role playing game supplements in my tweens that I got a somewhat different idea about the Jedi, which I do feel was more like the ‘force-sensitive hippies’ of Rebels. I have a fondness for that idea too, but I kinda miss my societally useless yet refined killers, which seem to have vanished from the timeline, if they ever existed anywhere outside my head.
posted by Kattullus at 3:35 PM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
You may well have already seen Rebels, but that is kinda how the Jedi are depicted in the show.
Personally, I didn’t saw the Jedi that way when I first saw the films. In the original movie, it was fairly clear that Ben Kenobi and Darth Vader were basically two paths along the same sorcerer’s ways. Before he dies, the old space wizard in the desert is faintly sinister.
I’ll admit that Yoda is everyone’s favorite little guy, and he fits pretty squarely in the ‘wise old sage’ archetype, but he’s pretty much the only other Jedi we see in the original films besides Obi-Wan.
This may be because I saw Seven Samurais at an impressionable age, but my personal view of Jedi was always more that they were kind of like ronin, masterless warriors adrift from a culture that had no particular need for them, unless a grave danger threatened society.
It wasn’t really until I started to read extended universe books and role playing game supplements in my tweens that I got a somewhat different idea about the Jedi, which I do feel was more like the ‘force-sensitive hippies’ of Rebels. I have a fondness for that idea too, but I kinda miss my societally useless yet refined killers, which seem to have vanished from the timeline, if they ever existed anywhere outside my head.
posted by Kattullus at 3:35 PM on July 18, 2024 [4 favorites]
He's basically an Ewok who's been introduced to a higher level of technology.
I was thinking the same thing, he's basically the galaxy's ugliest Ewok. Something about that little dude gives me the creeps.
I groaned when Yoda appeared, can't we give these hoary old legacy characters a rest for once? But overall I thought this show went much better than I expected, and I'd put it up there with the better Star Wars TV properties. Under Andor and parallel to season one of Mando seems about right.
posted by whir at 3:45 PM on July 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
I was thinking the same thing, he's basically the galaxy's ugliest Ewok. Something about that little dude gives me the creeps.
I groaned when Yoda appeared, can't we give these hoary old legacy characters a rest for once? But overall I thought this show went much better than I expected, and I'd put it up there with the better Star Wars TV properties. Under Andor and parallel to season one of Mando seems about right.
posted by whir at 3:45 PM on July 18, 2024 [3 favorites]
Huh. I think this tried to do a bit too much and the writing and plotting couldn't quite do what it needed to do. There were a lot of points that I thought needed to be watched with a lot of charity to buy into the plot, other points (e.g., Bazil) were just headscratchers or severely underdeveloped.
OTOH, there was also lot to like, and it was almost refreshing to see a Disney/Star Wars property stumble because it took too many risks. I'd take another series like this over another Boba Fett or, honestly, most of the movies.
And while I didn't love the big multi-Jedi fight in the middle of the series, it was bookended by two episodes with absolutely superb fight choreography.
posted by mark k at 9:02 PM on July 18, 2024 [6 favorites]
OTOH, there was also lot to like, and it was almost refreshing to see a Disney/Star Wars property stumble because it took too many risks. I'd take another series like this over another Boba Fett or, honestly, most of the movies.
And while I didn't love the big multi-Jedi fight in the middle of the series, it was bookended by two episodes with absolutely superb fight choreography.
posted by mark k at 9:02 PM on July 18, 2024 [6 favorites]
This may be because I saw Seven Samurais at an impressionable age, but my personal view of Jedi was always more that they were kind of like ronin, masterless warriors adrift from a culture that had no particular need for them, unless a grave danger threatened society.
I said in a previous episode something to the effect of the more Jedi are around, the less interesting they are. The prequels and now series like this have basically destroyed their mystique for me. I'm totally on board for the Jedi-as-ronin concept—wandering, quasi-legendary warriors who are masters of forces beyond the ken of most people and who almost always signal trouble. But the Jedi as bureaucrats or galactic police is just boring. There are just so many of them. Who cares?
I've enjoyed some of the ways the recent series have pushed back against the absolutism espoused by the prequels with Ahsoka leaving the order and figures like Bendu, but the Jedi order as it has developed is just too ridiculous. I mean, the whole thing is based on them stealing children away from their families. It'd be much more interesting to me to see a galaxy where sometimes people have these strange powers and then must seek out or find an elusive mentor to help them develop them.
posted by synecdoche at 5:35 AM on July 19, 2024 [7 favorites]
I said in a previous episode something to the effect of the more Jedi are around, the less interesting they are. The prequels and now series like this have basically destroyed their mystique for me. I'm totally on board for the Jedi-as-ronin concept—wandering, quasi-legendary warriors who are masters of forces beyond the ken of most people and who almost always signal trouble. But the Jedi as bureaucrats or galactic police is just boring. There are just so many of them. Who cares?
I've enjoyed some of the ways the recent series have pushed back against the absolutism espoused by the prequels with Ahsoka leaving the order and figures like Bendu, but the Jedi order as it has developed is just too ridiculous. I mean, the whole thing is based on them stealing children away from their families. It'd be much more interesting to me to see a galaxy where sometimes people have these strange powers and then must seek out or find an elusive mentor to help them develop them.
posted by synecdoche at 5:35 AM on July 19, 2024 [7 favorites]
Hi, my name is Atreides, and I am here to speak to you about the gospel that is the High Republic for your awesome Jedi being awesome people needs.
But seriously, grab Light of the Jedi and give it a go. I'd reckon most libraries have a copy. It even has Jedi Wayfarers, who are Jedi who 100% just tell the Order "See ya later!" and then go wander off into the wilds to do what the Force guides them to do.
This show is very much about revealing the decline of the Jedi into the Order that gets wiped out through Palpatine's machinations, so we're supposed to feel a bit let down by the behavior we see here. It doesn't mean there aren't Jedi who aren't just like what we want or imagined them to be present, either. RIP Yorde, but he 100% would have gone straight to the Jedi Council to tell on Sol. Jecki? Jecki would've probably gathered up all the evidence she needed first, then went. But even to be a bit pedantic, at this point, there are thousands of Jedi in the galaxy, and we just saw the story of five who fell to meet expectations.
Huh. I think this tried to do a bit too much and the writing and plotting couldn't quite do what it needed to do. There were a lot of points that I thought needed to be watched with a lot of charity to buy into the plot, other points (e.g., Bazil) were just headscratchers or severely underdeveloped.
I think you're right, and it felt like there were aspects of the show that were working with or around limitations that might have been placed on it. Be it production costs or story considerations.
posted by Atreides at 6:42 AM on July 19, 2024 [3 favorites]
But seriously, grab Light of the Jedi and give it a go. I'd reckon most libraries have a copy. It even has Jedi Wayfarers, who are Jedi who 100% just tell the Order "See ya later!" and then go wander off into the wilds to do what the Force guides them to do.
This show is very much about revealing the decline of the Jedi into the Order that gets wiped out through Palpatine's machinations, so we're supposed to feel a bit let down by the behavior we see here. It doesn't mean there aren't Jedi who aren't just like what we want or imagined them to be present, either. RIP Yorde, but he 100% would have gone straight to the Jedi Council to tell on Sol. Jecki? Jecki would've probably gathered up all the evidence she needed first, then went. But even to be a bit pedantic, at this point, there are thousands of Jedi in the galaxy, and we just saw the story of five who fell to meet expectations.
Huh. I think this tried to do a bit too much and the writing and plotting couldn't quite do what it needed to do. There were a lot of points that I thought needed to be watched with a lot of charity to buy into the plot, other points (e.g., Bazil) were just headscratchers or severely underdeveloped.
I think you're right, and it felt like there were aspects of the show that were working with or around limitations that might have been placed on it. Be it production costs or story considerations.
posted by Atreides at 6:42 AM on July 19, 2024 [3 favorites]
Wasn't there always an element of cynicism toward the Jedi and their "damn fool idealistic crusade"? I completely get the disappointment that comes with demystifying those lone Jedi remnants of the original trilogy, and to me it is not unlike the way Darth Vader got defanged in Jedi. They never should have unmasked him, IMO, and the prequels further depleted the character, reducing an intergalactic terrorist to a whiny teenager.
That's probably the biggest liability of any prequel/origin story: it depletes these characters by revealing too much. In 1977 Darth Vader was imposing and terrifying. It's difficult to reveal more of the character without weakening that, but it can be done. Despite its flaws, the Obi-wan series actually made Vader scary again, force-snapping innocent necks, for example. And the live-action character even had an arc for the first time in decades. That was an achievement.
The Sith & Jedi both had a certain mystique, and less is more. Parthenon is more enigmatic because it is a fragment, and encourages us to use our imagination to fill in those gaps lost to time. Do we really need to see the whole picture with our own eyes? Time chips away at the facade of a "more civilized age" leaving what we now know to be a "used future." It's difficult to strike a balance between telling Sith/Jedi stories without revealing too much.
That being said, The Acolyte does leave some details to the viewer's imagination, which resonates with the plot point of Jedi harboring certain secrets. Maybe the delayed gratification of secrets left in the dark is frustrating for some viewers, but those omissions are parts of the Star Wars story and always have been.
On the other hand, narratively speaking, the Jedis' secretive behavior is their downfall, and it parallels the arc of Star Wars as a franchise. Maybe we've learned too much about the Jedi, so they've lost a bit of their shine. It's the price of admission if we want to hear more of their stories.
The structure of The Acolyte resonates with that. Where the original trilogy was a simple and linear chronology, The Acolyte's epicenter is its flashback sequences. I think the first live-action Star War to include a flashback was Rogue One, if memory serves. That was a significant change; the franchise has earned it, and needs it. I appreciate that George Lucas was crafting an epic and that classical epics are mostly linear (with occasional ring composition), but that simplicity is a huge limitation when telling a more complex story. Linear chronology made perfect sense in 1977. But, if all of the sequels, prequels, etc. stuck to the same basic storytelling style, it would be pretty tired by now.
The Acolyte includes plenty of nods to the three trilogies (and some adjacent stories), enough to make it fit comfortably into the franchise, but it also does something new (for Star Wars). It's not perfect, but it's ambitious, and I think time will be kind to this series. It deserves at least one more season.
To me, it's a bit like hearing an innovative new album from my favorite artist. It can betray expectations at first because my ears are used to a certain sound or style. With time though, those innovative albums can become favorites. They just take a little getting used to. Hearing something new from a familiar voice can be challenging, but in the end that challenge is what keeps me coming back. And, if I want to hear the same old sound, I can always listen to their classics again.
Like whir wrote above, I think Andor is the most effective of these Star Wars serials, so far. Mandalorian is uneven, and so is The Acolyte, but they are both at their best when they are ambitious. That speaks to what Star Wars has always been. George Lucas's originals cast a long shadow over the entire sci-fi genre and my own childhood, but they are also far from perfect. In some ways they are pretty dated (and in other ways they were already dated from the very beginning, mining tired tropes from relics like Flash Gordon, for example). Then again, maybe we can recognize our ability to look back at the past and innovate as a form of progress.
Samuel Delaney called it out back in 1977, when he described A New Hope as a future in which only white males had survived. It's good to see these new series, The Acolyte included, undoing that, in spite of a toxic fanbase contingent that would rather cling to a past that was nostalgic from the beginning. Flash Gordon was more than 40 years old when A New Hope came out, and that was 50 years ago. "A long, long time ago. . ."
It's a big galaxy, and it should be explored.
posted by abraxasaxarba at 12:25 PM on July 19, 2024 [9 favorites]
That's probably the biggest liability of any prequel/origin story: it depletes these characters by revealing too much. In 1977 Darth Vader was imposing and terrifying. It's difficult to reveal more of the character without weakening that, but it can be done. Despite its flaws, the Obi-wan series actually made Vader scary again, force-snapping innocent necks, for example. And the live-action character even had an arc for the first time in decades. That was an achievement.
The Sith & Jedi both had a certain mystique, and less is more. Parthenon is more enigmatic because it is a fragment, and encourages us to use our imagination to fill in those gaps lost to time. Do we really need to see the whole picture with our own eyes? Time chips away at the facade of a "more civilized age" leaving what we now know to be a "used future." It's difficult to strike a balance between telling Sith/Jedi stories without revealing too much.
That being said, The Acolyte does leave some details to the viewer's imagination, which resonates with the plot point of Jedi harboring certain secrets. Maybe the delayed gratification of secrets left in the dark is frustrating for some viewers, but those omissions are parts of the Star Wars story and always have been.
On the other hand, narratively speaking, the Jedis' secretive behavior is their downfall, and it parallels the arc of Star Wars as a franchise. Maybe we've learned too much about the Jedi, so they've lost a bit of their shine. It's the price of admission if we want to hear more of their stories.
The structure of The Acolyte resonates with that. Where the original trilogy was a simple and linear chronology, The Acolyte's epicenter is its flashback sequences. I think the first live-action Star War to include a flashback was Rogue One, if memory serves. That was a significant change; the franchise has earned it, and needs it. I appreciate that George Lucas was crafting an epic and that classical epics are mostly linear (with occasional ring composition), but that simplicity is a huge limitation when telling a more complex story. Linear chronology made perfect sense in 1977. But, if all of the sequels, prequels, etc. stuck to the same basic storytelling style, it would be pretty tired by now.
The Acolyte includes plenty of nods to the three trilogies (and some adjacent stories), enough to make it fit comfortably into the franchise, but it also does something new (for Star Wars). It's not perfect, but it's ambitious, and I think time will be kind to this series. It deserves at least one more season.
To me, it's a bit like hearing an innovative new album from my favorite artist. It can betray expectations at first because my ears are used to a certain sound or style. With time though, those innovative albums can become favorites. They just take a little getting used to. Hearing something new from a familiar voice can be challenging, but in the end that challenge is what keeps me coming back. And, if I want to hear the same old sound, I can always listen to their classics again.
Like whir wrote above, I think Andor is the most effective of these Star Wars serials, so far. Mandalorian is uneven, and so is The Acolyte, but they are both at their best when they are ambitious. That speaks to what Star Wars has always been. George Lucas's originals cast a long shadow over the entire sci-fi genre and my own childhood, but they are also far from perfect. In some ways they are pretty dated (and in other ways they were already dated from the very beginning, mining tired tropes from relics like Flash Gordon, for example). Then again, maybe we can recognize our ability to look back at the past and innovate as a form of progress.
Samuel Delaney called it out back in 1977, when he described A New Hope as a future in which only white males had survived. It's good to see these new series, The Acolyte included, undoing that, in spite of a toxic fanbase contingent that would rather cling to a past that was nostalgic from the beginning. Flash Gordon was more than 40 years old when A New Hope came out, and that was 50 years ago. "A long, long time ago. . ."
It's a big galaxy, and it should be explored.
posted by abraxasaxarba at 12:25 PM on July 19, 2024 [9 favorites]
I thought it was good-ish, aside from a few very confusing narrative swerves like whatever the deal was with Basil the wombat-person sabotaging the ship. I remember some similar moments of WTF in the Boba Fett show. Disney has a lot riding on this franchise and they're famous for micro-managing everything, so I don't know how these baffling plot holes keep showing up in modern Star Wars. We really shouldn't be walking away from these shows going, "I don't know, maybe they explain that part in a comic book or something..."
I'm not one of those people who thinks you must be a racist/sexist neckbeard if you didn't like The Last Jedi. But, the people who are giving this show no-star ratings and saying it's the worst thing Star Wars ever did? Yeah, I think they pretty much have to be racist/sexist neckbeards. This was just an objectively competent show. Maybe it wasn't great but there were no howlingly stupid lines and the acting was pretty good and the special effects and fights were all fine. As Star Wars goes, this was a good solid B+, maybe even an A-. But a lot of Star Wars fans just could not cope with lead characters who were female POC, it simply broke their brains. It's freaking pathetic, but here we are.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:16 AM on July 22, 2024 [7 favorites]
I'm not one of those people who thinks you must be a racist/sexist neckbeard if you didn't like The Last Jedi. But, the people who are giving this show no-star ratings and saying it's the worst thing Star Wars ever did? Yeah, I think they pretty much have to be racist/sexist neckbeards. This was just an objectively competent show. Maybe it wasn't great but there were no howlingly stupid lines and the acting was pretty good and the special effects and fights were all fine. As Star Wars goes, this was a good solid B+, maybe even an A-. But a lot of Star Wars fans just could not cope with lead characters who were female POC, it simply broke their brains. It's freaking pathetic, but here we are.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:16 AM on July 22, 2024 [7 favorites]
Yeah, if I hadn't been clued in to who Plagueis was by said neckbeards howling about something or other ("that's now how he was introduced in canon!" or something?) I'm not sure I'd have known who the fuck that was? And I joked with my wife that that was actually Grogu at the end, not Yoda, and I'm not sure she didn't believe me? I think there's a risk that Disney faces by having multiple shows running at the same time in different eras, which is a shame - there's a lot of space for stories to be told, y'know?
But anyway, yeah, it was broadly fine? I think it could have been done a bit better, I think some of the implications of a force cloning or whatever could have been played out better for people who weren't paying attention to Plagueis and Palpatine in the prequels and TBB and whatnot?
posted by Kyol at 8:26 AM on July 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
But anyway, yeah, it was broadly fine? I think it could have been done a bit better, I think some of the implications of a force cloning or whatever could have been played out better for people who weren't paying attention to Plagueis and Palpatine in the prequels and TBB and whatnot?
posted by Kyol at 8:26 AM on July 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
I’m kinda bummed that there isn’t another episode today. On some level I’d’ve loved to watch a Sol, Yord & Jecki weekly procedural show, or just a show where Osha and Qimir bounce around the galaxy having adventures. I realize that’s not what Headland and the rest of the creative team wanted, but something like that would’ve been fun to see. Ah well, maybe someone revives George Lucas’ old idea for Star Wars: Underworld.
posted by Kattullus at 11:52 AM on July 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 11:52 AM on July 24, 2024 [2 favorites]
> The only thing that marks [Bazil] as lesser is his lack of speech.
The first episode with Bazil, Yord is shown to know the language Bazil speaks, can speak with him, and impressed upon Osha to treat Bazil as an intelligent being.
posted by skynxnex at 10:02 PM on July 24, 2024 [5 favorites]
The first episode with Bazil, Yord is shown to know the language Bazil speaks, can speak with him, and impressed upon Osha to treat Bazil as an intelligent being.
posted by skynxnex at 10:02 PM on July 24, 2024 [5 favorites]
Well since this is now the 'SW series we'd like to see instead of the one that got made' the one I want is the David Simon urban-observation series with a very large ensemble cast of characters, set in Cloud City, with a crime main plot but a subtext of looking at the history, sociology, and the corruption and the labour politics of an outer rim gas mining settlement, with a funk and soul soundtrack
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:32 PM on July 24, 2024 [8 favorites]
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 10:32 PM on July 24, 2024 [8 favorites]
I really enjoyed David Harewood coming on screen as Senator Skeptic.
Seconded! I always enjoy seeing him, and I hope they follow him a bit more next season.
The first episode with Bazil, Yord is shown to know the language Bazil speaks, can speak with him, and impressed upon Osha to treat Bazil as an intelligent being.
Yord even makes a comment that the reason he studied Bazil's language (I don't remember what it's called) instead of choosing Shiriwook like most Jedi is because Bazil's is more nuanced. I do wonder what B. was up to in a lot of this, tho, they focused on him several times following Mae around in a way that seemed to indicate he knew who she was before Sol did, and then the sabotage...probably coriolisdave has the right of it.
posted by solotoro at 10:37 PM on July 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
Seconded! I always enjoy seeing him, and I hope they follow him a bit more next season.
The first episode with Bazil, Yord is shown to know the language Bazil speaks, can speak with him, and impressed upon Osha to treat Bazil as an intelligent being.
Yord even makes a comment that the reason he studied Bazil's language (I don't remember what it's called) instead of choosing Shiriwook like most Jedi is because Bazil's is more nuanced. I do wonder what B. was up to in a lot of this, tho, they focused on him several times following Mae around in a way that seemed to indicate he knew who she was before Sol did, and then the sabotage...probably coriolisdave has the right of it.
posted by solotoro at 10:37 PM on July 25, 2024 [2 favorites]
Thanks for correcting me that Bazil has speech! That invalidates my speculation that he's a demi-human or like a droid or a useful dog. Seems weird he has no way to communicate with the others though, he must be very frustrated!
posted by Nelson at 8:42 AM on July 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 8:42 AM on July 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
I am disappointed. Osha went through the entire series without conducting a health & safety inspection.
posted by Ishbadiddle at 1:32 AM on August 12, 2024 [5 favorites]
posted by Ishbadiddle at 1:32 AM on August 12, 2024 [5 favorites]
Alas, it looks like there won't be a season 2. I enjoyed the show overall, but I wish it had committed fully to Rashomon-style competing narratives with no one true version of the events.
posted by jedicus at 6:03 PM on August 19, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by jedicus at 6:03 PM on August 19, 2024 [3 favorites]
‘The Acolyte’ Canceled: No Season 2 For Disney+’s ‘Star Wars’ Series
posted by cooker girl at 8:36 PM on August 19, 2024 [3 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 8:36 PM on August 19, 2024 [3 favorites]
Jebus, Acolyte canceled while Ahsoka gets a second season. There is no justice.
posted by Kattullus at 3:12 AM on August 20, 2024 [4 favorites]
posted by Kattullus at 3:12 AM on August 20, 2024 [4 favorites]
My corner of social media is pretty pissed off and upset over this. I'm pretty disappointed as it felt that the groundwork for a better season two was laid out pretty well. I did listen to a podcast a few weeks ago that made some compelling arguments on how bumpy the show was, such as it appearing that every episode's script had required some kind of rewrite (not necessarily a bad thing but not normal), and the show made storytelling decisions that didn't quite flow well together (such as when to do time jumps).
I do think a major factor for the decision was the budget. Purportedly it cost $180 million to produce with only eight episodes. That's about $22.5 million per episode. By comparison, The Mandalorian season 1 cost about $120 million at about $15 million per episode. A more recent comparison,Ahoska, was thought to be around $100 million or around $12.5 million per episode. It might just be that the purse string holders didn't like how expensive the show was and for how much they got for that $180 million. Another comparison. Ahsoka clocked in at 362 listed minutes or just over six hours. Acolyte clocked in at 304 minutes or just over 5 hrs. The cost versus product ratio here is pretty striking.
I hate to say it, but it could be Headland lost a chance at Season 2 because of the money side of Season 1. Throw in the fact it performed worse streaming-wise than most (if all?) the other Star Wars live action tv shows and the reverse, if the show had been extremely popular, would have offset the costs.
posted by Atreides at 7:23 AM on August 20, 2024 [4 favorites]
I do think a major factor for the decision was the budget. Purportedly it cost $180 million to produce with only eight episodes. That's about $22.5 million per episode. By comparison, The Mandalorian season 1 cost about $120 million at about $15 million per episode. A more recent comparison,Ahoska, was thought to be around $100 million or around $12.5 million per episode. It might just be that the purse string holders didn't like how expensive the show was and for how much they got for that $180 million. Another comparison. Ahsoka clocked in at 362 listed minutes or just over six hours. Acolyte clocked in at 304 minutes or just over 5 hrs. The cost versus product ratio here is pretty striking.
I hate to say it, but it could be Headland lost a chance at Season 2 because of the money side of Season 1. Throw in the fact it performed worse streaming-wise than most (if all?) the other Star Wars live action tv shows and the reverse, if the show had been extremely popular, would have offset the costs.
posted by Atreides at 7:23 AM on August 20, 2024 [4 favorites]
I can't help but think that the more expensive a series is to make, the more likely they will be canceled.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:18 AM on August 20, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:18 AM on August 20, 2024 [1 favorite]
THE POWER OF ONE (season)
The money side must be the start and end of this decision. Disney isn't funding these shows because of their personal commitment to the stories. I have no idea how to evaluate the return on streaming TV shows. Are there even reliable viewership numbers? I imagine Disney has a pretty good idea.
I was going to point to Andor as an example of a lower budget success but then I was floored to learn it cost $250M for just about 8 hours of shows. Compare $180M for 6 hours of The Acolyte, or they both cost about the same at $30M/hour.
A shame. The writing was a bit of a mess but I liked it. Interesting, particularly the moral ambiguity. I was looking forward to where they were going to take it.
posted by Nelson at 10:53 AM on August 20, 2024 [3 favorites]
The money side must be the start and end of this decision. Disney isn't funding these shows because of their personal commitment to the stories. I have no idea how to evaluate the return on streaming TV shows. Are there even reliable viewership numbers? I imagine Disney has a pretty good idea.
I was going to point to Andor as an example of a lower budget success but then I was floored to learn it cost $250M for just about 8 hours of shows. Compare $180M for 6 hours of The Acolyte, or they both cost about the same at $30M/hour.
A shame. The writing was a bit of a mess but I liked it. Interesting, particularly the moral ambiguity. I was looking forward to where they were going to take it.
posted by Nelson at 10:53 AM on August 20, 2024 [3 favorites]
Nelson, good contrast there. It's my opinion, but Andor is a far superior show than Acolyte, so it had that going for it. Granted, allegedly Andor was planned out as having five seasons and it was given just the 12 episodes of season 2 to pull off the remaining story leading up to Rogue One. So even despite being a critical success, it narrowly got to continue its story. I suppose part of the answer is you have some high barriers to get over for any type of continuation of a show unless it's considerably cheaper and/or has the potential to make a lot of money (like a certain baby Yoda).
posted by Atreides at 11:11 AM on August 20, 2024 [1 favorite]
posted by Atreides at 11:11 AM on August 20, 2024 [1 favorite]
I always sorta wish I had a better understanding of where that $30m per episode is going. Like I know I've heard that some of it is just producing shows for the HD era is just that much more expensive because we can see things in HD that we could never see in SD and so the set dressers have to be more careful and the sets can't just be spray foam over cardboard any more, and, and, and. And I mean sure, yes, but there are also some classic 30 year old filmed shows that look _fine_ upscaled to HD. Ok, they were semi-premium shows of their era, but a $1.3m TNG episode in 1988 (or a $2m SG-1 episode in 2004) is only a $3.5m TV episode in 2024, is the other $26.5m going into the effects budget? It is, isn't it?
(I mean, if it's going into the actors and writers pockets, that's fine by me, especially with the payroll hell that only working an intermittent 10 episode season every few years has to be. But I suspect there's a lot getting sunk into stuff that most people aren't even really conscious of.)
posted by Kyol at 11:33 AM on August 20, 2024 [2 favorites]
(I mean, if it's going into the actors and writers pockets, that's fine by me, especially with the payroll hell that only working an intermittent 10 episode season every few years has to be. But I suspect there's a lot getting sunk into stuff that most people aren't even really conscious of.)
posted by Kyol at 11:33 AM on August 20, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'd love to see a budget breakdown too!
I think a lot of it has to be production design, both Andor and Acolyte have remarkably well fleshed out visual designs. Different locations that all look like full complete places with their own histories and design languages and patterns of wear. It's an enormous amount of artistic effort, not to mention construction labor, and it all contributes to a show "looking expensive". It's a key part of the Star Wars franchise IMHO, that the places look real.
There's also an awful lot of post-production, hand editing every frame of the output.
posted by Nelson at 11:49 AM on August 20, 2024 [4 favorites]
I think a lot of it has to be production design, both Andor and Acolyte have remarkably well fleshed out visual designs. Different locations that all look like full complete places with their own histories and design languages and patterns of wear. It's an enormous amount of artistic effort, not to mention construction labor, and it all contributes to a show "looking expensive". It's a key part of the Star Wars franchise IMHO, that the places look real.
There's also an awful lot of post-production, hand editing every frame of the output.
posted by Nelson at 11:49 AM on August 20, 2024 [4 favorites]
It is a shame. They left enough plot stuff dangling that I hope they at least get a TV movie or something to wrap it all up.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:34 PM on August 20, 2024
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:34 PM on August 20, 2024
There's definitely options like continuing the story via Marvel or Dark Horse comics. The High Republic comic books coming out the last month have all had "From the same era as The Acolyte" or something printed on the cover. We are already, unless something changes, getting a few Acolyte books. We're even getting a one shot Kelnacca (wookiee) comic next week or something.
I heard, without confirmation, that it was likely the weird Mr. Bazil may have been a pretty pricey addition to the show. Though, how much does he cost versus say a droid like Huyang?
posted by Atreides at 7:06 AM on August 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
I heard, without confirmation, that it was likely the weird Mr. Bazil may have been a pretty pricey addition to the show. Though, how much does he cost versus say a droid like Huyang?
posted by Atreides at 7:06 AM on August 21, 2024 [2 favorites]
Yeah, we've been talking about it. :(
posted by cooker girl at 4:33 PM on August 21, 2024
posted by cooker girl at 4:33 PM on August 21, 2024
This show probably had an absolutely awesome pitch! From the creator of Russian Doll, we explore a conflict between jedi and sith from different points of view, with wire work martial arts.
Buuut... Then they forgot to make costumes that looked like they were actually warn for more than a day
And then they forgot to make the actors to have good, realistically paced dialogue and emotion
And then they replayed the same flashback multiple times, with no twists or surprises.
And then they sucked any sense of urgency or danger away by making all the action happen a quick hyperspace jump from everywhere else
Oh, but they had great sets!! I loved the sets!
And some of the actors were really great!
I just don't get it tho... Why spend so much money on a show, but then skip stuff like "cinematography"?
I know nothing about deplorables brigading and influencing ratings but... In my opinion, this was not a show that should get a second season. This is a story that should get a better first season. Imo.
posted by rebent at 5:39 PM on August 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
Buuut... Then they forgot to make costumes that looked like they were actually warn for more than a day
And then they forgot to make the actors to have good, realistically paced dialogue and emotion
And then they replayed the same flashback multiple times, with no twists or surprises.
And then they sucked any sense of urgency or danger away by making all the action happen a quick hyperspace jump from everywhere else
Oh, but they had great sets!! I loved the sets!
And some of the actors were really great!
I just don't get it tho... Why spend so much money on a show, but then skip stuff like "cinematography"?
I know nothing about deplorables brigading and influencing ratings but... In my opinion, this was not a show that should get a second season. This is a story that should get a better first season. Imo.
posted by rebent at 5:39 PM on August 22, 2024 [1 favorite]
Follow up information regarding the show's budget:
Disney has revealed that its controversial Star Wars streaming show The Acolyte came in "over the production budget" with its costs hitting $230.1 million (£172.7 million) when it was only part of the way through post production. - Forbes
Oof. So if that's accurate, the show cost more than $230 million, assuming the additional costs of post production past that point? We had been operating around $180 million, which kept it sort of in line with Andor but seems to really drive home that the costs versus satisfaction with the show was a major reason for non-renewal. That's about $50 million more or $8 million additional bucks per episode than we previously thought.
posted by Atreides at 11:18 AM on September 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
Disney has revealed that its controversial Star Wars streaming show The Acolyte came in "over the production budget" with its costs hitting $230.1 million (£172.7 million) when it was only part of the way through post production. - Forbes
Oof. So if that's accurate, the show cost more than $230 million, assuming the additional costs of post production past that point? We had been operating around $180 million, which kept it sort of in line with Andor but seems to really drive home that the costs versus satisfaction with the show was a major reason for non-renewal. That's about $50 million more or $8 million additional bucks per episode than we previously thought.
posted by Atreides at 11:18 AM on September 26, 2024 [2 favorites]
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I liked the look and drama of the lightsaber turning red. Might be a bit plot constricting for Jedi turning to the dark side though. "Oh hi, Count Dooku, your lightsaber's looking a bit off-colour today..."
posted by TheophileEscargot at 6:14 AM on July 17, 2024 [4 favorites]