Game of Thrones: Kill the Boy   Books Included 
May 11, 2015 12:32 AM - Season 5, Episode 5 - Subscribe

Daenerys tries to hold on to Meereen, Jon tries to hold on to the Wall, the Boltons try to hold on to the North and Jorah and Tyrion just try to hold on.

--
Daenerys: “They will eat you if I tell them to. They may eat you even if I don’t. Children. Some say I should give up on them. But a good mother never gives up on her children. She disciplines them if she must. But she does not give up on them.”
--


Not-in-the-Books Plot Twists Spoilers!
* Jorah and Tyrion traveling through Valyria
* Walda Frey's pregnancy
* Ser Barristan Selmy's death
* Jorah's contraction of greyscale
More here.

--
Tormund Giantsbane : “The day I ask my people to fight with the Crows is the day my people cut my guts from my belly and make me eat them.”
--
posted by zarq (139 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
I got chills watching that scene with Dany in the dragon pit. The fear was palpable, nicely done.

The dragons feeding, though.. would have been far more disturbing if they'd just settled down to kronsche kronsche kronsche; the cartoony cackling and such was a bit much.
posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 12:41 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


So... I'm trying to figure out why Stannis Baratheon, who is not like particularly well-known for his generosity, would (just before launching a military assault to take control of the realm) lend his entire fleet of ships to one group of people who swear him no allegiance to go pick up and introduce into his kingdom thousands of other people who swear him no allegiance and whose leader he just burned at the stake.

The best I can come up with is "Melisandre told him to" but a) I'd love to know if you have any better ideas and b) I would have really loved to have seen that conversation.
posted by davidjmcgee at 1:09 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


Oh. Right. Because he believes the White Walkers are real and if the Wildlings are on the other side of the wall come winter they'll be added to the army of the dead. HERE ARE ALL OF MY SHIPS.
posted by davidjmcgee at 1:22 AM on May 11, 2015 [11 favorites]


I don't know they did a great job of spelling out his motivations in the show, but it seems to me he did it because acting the most like a ruler of any of those trying to claim the thrown. He actually recognizes the threat beyond the wall, including the point john makes about the wildlings becoming part of the problem if they aren't rescued.

At least, that was my take on it.

Also. I really hope we get Wun Wun. I bet we won't, but of all the characters, that's who I'm holding out for.
posted by [insert clever name here] at 1:40 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


The part where he mutters "fewer" to himself made me both laugh out loud and feel shame because I have been known to do that occasionally.
posted by Justinian at 2:00 AM on May 11, 2015 [25 favorites]


So does this mean no grayscale for Tyrion? Jorah is taking the hit instead?
posted by Justinian at 2:01 AM on May 11, 2015


Oh wait, no, he is replacing that guy Mumble McMumblename who I didnt care about who was with that other guy I didn't care about.
posted by Justinian at 2:03 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


"Why are you so surprised? You read the books!"
"That wasn't in the books."

I wonder if the Stone Men can handle dragons.
posted by tilde at 2:19 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


Ok. I'm confused. I thought this Superbad "winter" happened about every 5-7 of our years. In other words, a man could see a few SB WINTERS in his lifetime. Why didn't the last one make all of the wildlings into white walkers? Or the winters before that? How are there thousands of people left North of the wall if they've been doing this dance for 8000 years?
posted by pearlybob at 3:35 AM on May 11, 2015


In the current storyline, I think it's been 15 years or so since the last winter, but the white walkers haven't been seen in 8000 years, so winter doesn't automatically mean white walkers.
posted by LionIndex at 4:16 AM on May 11, 2015 [7 favorites]


The part where he mutters "fewer" to himself made me both laugh out loud and feel shame because I have been known to do that occasionally.

Also a callback to a conversation between Stannis and Davos in Season 2, Episode 4:

Davos: "four less fingernails to clean..." (referring to Stannis's punishment of Davos)
Stannis: "fewer."
Davos: "what?"
Stannis: "four FEWER."

Re: Stannis's ships -- This is a bit of show hand-waving; in the books, Jon was able to press the ships of the Iron Bank and some of the Watch's own ships from Eastwatch-by-the-Sea into service.

Walda Frey's pregnancy
This is actually in the books. Roose thinks aloud to Reek that Ramsay will probably kill any kids Walda gives birth to, just like Ramsay killed Roose's trueborn son (Domeric) from a previous marriage. Roose seems OK with this (but is it just a Roose ruse?) because child lords are the bane of any house.

With Roose giving Ramsay the background of his conception and birth in this episode, I was waiting for him to tell Ramsay "don't make me rue the day I raped your mother."
posted by dhens at 4:28 AM on May 11, 2015 [7 favorites]


Thanks Lionindex.
posted by pearlybob at 4:33 AM on May 11, 2015


Foreshadowing?:
AEMON: A Targaryen alone in the world is an awful thing!
ENTER JON SNOW
posted by LionIndex at 5:01 AM on May 11, 2015 [14 favorites]



With Roose giving Ramsay the background of his conception and birth in this episode, I was waiting for him to tell Ramsay "don't make me rue the day I raped your mother."


This line will be used:I believe when Ramsey disagrees with a request of his father's next, now that he's set himself up as "Dad".
posted by lalochezia at 5:06 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


Since they finally talked about the Citadel/Old Town and Sam lamented that he has always wanted to be a maester, it seems like that storyline will happen after all.

I'm very curious how the greyscale factors into the story if Tyrion and Jorah can just switch who gets it.
posted by gatorae at 5:15 AM on May 11, 2015


I don't think Tyrion got greyscale in the books (I've confirmed this with A Wiki of Ice And Fire). Jon Connington got it rescuing Tyrion, just as Jorah did in the show.
posted by LionIndex at 5:29 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


Yup... Tyrion keeps checking if he has greyscale and has passed the test each time (so far).
posted by drezdn at 5:46 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


Whoops, I must have blocked Jon Connington from my memory since I hated the Aegon plotline so much and just remembered Tyrion being afraid of getting it. That makes a lot more sense since they seem to be writing out that whole plot detour and compressing any relevant parts into characters we already know. Although, my husband was wondering if, since they are now stranded on the beach, whether Jon Connington and Aegon will fortuitously come by and pick them up. God I hope not.
posted by gatorae at 5:52 AM on May 11, 2015


Stannis got quite a winner's edit this episode. In the books he's an inflexible disciplinarian. He's so lawful neutral he shits modrons. He's so lawful neutral he's essentially lawful evil because humanity cannot fit the required molds without a lot of smashing. Humanity around him is deformed and twisted. (Please buy my book, Neutral Good is the Only Good.)

On the show he's got a relatable grammar pet peeve and is pals with the characters we like. He thinks he's got something to learn from books that aren't Lord o' Light approved, and he doesn't mind Jon Snow dilly-dallying, mucking up his executions, and borrowing his car keys on short notice. I'm surprised they didn't show him petting Ghost or saying why Arya is his favorite Stark. Stannis is one rad dad.
posted by nom de poop at 5:57 AM on May 11, 2015 [30 favorites]


Okay Arya is Buttercup, so Shireen is Blossom? Myrcella is Bubbles?
posted by Rat Spatula at 6:04 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]


On the show he's got a relatable grammar pet peeve and is pals with the characters we like. He thinks he's got something to learn from books that aren't Lord o' Light approved, and he doesn't mind Jon Snow dilly-dallying, mucking up his executions, and borrowing his car keys on short notice. I'm surprised they didn't show him petting Ghost or saying why Arya is his favorite Stark. Stannis is one rad dad.

In other words, he's a dead man.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:13 AM on May 11, 2015 [15 favorites]


The bit where Aemon is like "it is terrible for a targaryen to be alone in the world" and then the camera immediately cuts to Jon coming down the stairs was like, i see what u did there. I was expecting Sam to look into the camera with a longsuffering Tom Haverford face of "srsly?"

also are we meant to assume that the dragon tyrion and beardude saw was drogon out hunting? or is it meant to be another previously undiscovered wild dragon?
posted by poffin boffin at 6:16 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]


shireen is definitely blossom, good call.
posted by poffin boffin at 6:17 AM on May 11, 2015


Daenerys tries to hold on to Meereen, Jon tries to hold on to the Wall, the Boltons try to hold on to the North and Jorah and Tyrion just try to hold on.

Parallelism!
posted by the man of twists and turns at 6:25 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


Walda Frey is pregnant in the books by the time of Ramsay's wedding, so that isn't a change from the books.

How ugly is that wedding night going to get? It was ugly in the books, but this episode really seemed to be upping the creep factor for the Boltons and Miranda in general. And this is a show that loves its torture and rape scenes. Just not looking forward to it.
posted by nubs at 6:35 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


In the little "inside the episode" blurb after the show, the writers specifically called that dragon Drogon.
posted by LionIndex at 6:41 AM on May 11, 2015


Metafilter Stannis: He's so lawful neutral he shits modrons.
posted by freecellwizard at 6:49 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


My book fan hissy fit of the week is over the fact that it seems like Edd will take the place of Bowen Marsh.
posted by tofu_crouton at 6:53 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


Walda Frey's pregnancy
dhens: This is actually in the books. Roose thinks aloud to Reek that Ramsay will probably kill any kids Walda gives birth to, just like Ramsay killed Roose's trueborn son (Domeric) from a previous marriage. Roose seems OK with this (but is it just a Roose ruse?) because child lords are the bane of any house.

nubs: Walda Frey is pregnant in the books by the time of Ramsay's wedding, so that isn't a change from the books.

Nice catch. Thanks for the correction!
posted by zarq at 6:54 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


Episode 2: Barristan Selmy warns Daenaerys not to become like her father:

Barristan: When the people rose in revolt against him your father set their towns and castles aflame. He murdered sons in front of their fathers. He burned men alive with wildfire and laughed as they screamed, and his efforts to stamp out dissent led to a rebellion that killed every Targaryen except two.
Dany: I'm not my father.
Barristan: No, Your Grace, thank the gods. But the Mad King gave his enemies the justice he thought they deserved. And each time, it made him feel powerful and right until the very end.


Episode 5: Dany burns a random, possibly innocent man just to intimidate people who may or may not be her enemies. Runs in the family, I suppose. Womp womp.
posted by dhens at 6:55 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


Dany burns a random, possibly innocent man just to intimidate people who may or may not be her enemies. Runs in the family, I suppose. Womp womp.

He wasn't random, he was specifically one of the High Lords of Meereen who was ok with slavery. One less slaver is one less slaver.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:00 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


One fewer slaver.
posted by nicepersonality at 7:02 AM on May 11, 2015 [80 favorites]


He wasn't random, he was specifically one of the High Lords of Meereen who was ok with slavery. One less slaver is one less slaver.

Well, he was one of the leaders of Meereen's great families, yes, which meant that he was almost certainly a slaver before Dany's arrival. Was he one of those behind the Sons of the Harpy though?
posted by dhens at 7:03 AM on May 11, 2015


I really thought Dany's point there was going to be, "I don't know which of you are responsible, but you all have the power to end this, and now you know what will happen to you if you don't."

But then she kept them imprisoned, so that's no good.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:08 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


Fun fact: the actor who plays Olly is a year older than Book Jon is at the beginning of the story. Just in case you were on the fence about whether aging up the characters was a good idea.
posted by KathrynT at 7:09 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


I thought the appearance of Hizdhar alone at the end meant that she ended up burning all the others except for him?
posted by poffin boffin at 7:12 AM on May 11, 2015


Not necessarily you just like burning people and feeding dragons.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:14 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


i told you that in confidence brandon
posted by poffin boffin at 7:15 AM on May 11, 2015 [17 favorites]


nom de poop: " Stannis is one rad dad."

Except don't you remember when Mom asked Dad not to drink so much, and you snuck out of the house and pulled a "hey, mister" to get him a six-pick of his favorite beer? You waited for the right moment when Mom was doing something else and told dad about how, since you knew he really needed it, you broke curfew and underage liquor laws and got it for him. And do you remember the rest? Dad was so happy! So, so happy and grateful. "Thank you so much! You're a truly amazing daughter/son, and I love you so much."

And after you both hugged, he apologized and cut your fingers off.

Stannis is not a rad dad. Stannis is a fucking sociopath (like the other major contenders in GoT) -- but importantly to us contemporary viewers, he's a consistent fucking sociopath. Rules is rules for Stannis, no matter who you are. Rad dad he ain't.
posted by barnacles at 7:22 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


Before we all set up our tents and bed down for the night in Camp Stannis, remember that he murdered his own brother, just to be king. So let's not cheer his family ties, eh?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:25 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


Yeah, but Stannis is a Hot Dad, and Hot Dads are super hot right now.
posted by poffin boffin at 7:27 AM on May 11, 2015 [14 favorites]


Also a callback to a conversation between Stannis and Davos in Season 2, Episode 4

Which makes the "nevermind" to Davos even funnier.

also are we meant to assume that the dragon tyrion and beardude saw was drogon out hunting? or is it meant to be another previously undiscovered wild dragon?

I figured it was Drogon, as it looked like a black dragon. Wild dragons would be a Really Big Thing, given that none have been seen in 300 years, and the last one was the size of a sickly cat or something.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:28 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


Yeah, but Stannis is a Hot Dad, and Hot Dads are super hot right now.

Why women are lusting after dudes with ‘dad bod’ ... is a real headline about a supposedly real trend. I hate that I know it, so I share my suffering with you all.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:29 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


His wife burned her brother at the stake. Say what you will about the Lannisters, they at least didn't kill each other like this, it was just in the heat of the moment or irrational attempts.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:30 AM on May 11, 2015


just in the heat of the moment

That's what the Targs called it, too.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:32 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


Religion's a helluva drug.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 7:32 AM on May 11, 2015


remember that he murdered his own brother, just to be king
His younger brother who was making a blatant grab at the throne, treasonous from any point of view. Do you think that Stannis (and Shireen) would have been long for this world if Renly had won?

His wife burned her brother at the stake.
Ugh, the show screwed that up. In the books, Alester Florent (Selyse's uncle) was serving as Hand of the King to Stannis after the Battle of the Blackwater. He tried to sign a separate peace with Cersei, giving up Stannis's claim and betrothing Shireen to Tommen. Thus, he betrayed his king and would send his only child off to be used as a hostage, to marry a bastard born of incest.

Long story short:
Dany burns people alive (and lets her husband kill her brother) and rants against usurpers: "OMG bestest ruler ever!"
Stannis burns people alive and rants against usurpers: "What a monster!"
posted by dhens at 7:46 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


I liked the twist making Dany more dominant, both in the decision to re-open the fighting pits, and telling Hizdhar "hey, you're already on your knees, now you're going to marry me to make the people happy."

In the beginning of the episode, I was half expecting Hizdar to say "sorry about Ser Barristan, have you had any thoughts on re-opening the fighting pits?"
posted by filthy light thief at 8:02 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


Selyse has the piercing gaze of a deranged religious fanatic and I DO NOT LIKE the way she looks at Shireen, not one fucking bit.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:08 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]


Also I like how there are 3 active buddy comedy roadtrips underway right now. But I'm worried that Jorah and Tyrion's will end up in the gross slavery/Penny storyline and I cannot possibly express how much I do not want that to happen without doing a very angry interpretive dance.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:10 AM on May 11, 2015 [12 favorites]


Yeah, Selyse is clearly already building a fire for Shireen. If Stannis was so admanat about Shireen not being harmed in anyway, she would have probably already been put in the fire.

I long for a moment when Shireen turns the tables. She clearly has the intelligence to do and Davos is her pal, so fingers crossed.

Also I like how there are 3 active buddy comedy roadtrips underway right now

Needs more Varys!!! What is he doing, where is he?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 AM on May 11, 2015


Also I like how there are 3 active buddy comedy roadtrips underway right now.

I'm looking forward to the newest HBO spin-off series: Better off with the Boltons. I'm not sure if it's a gameshow (Would you rather ... marry Joffrey or Ramsey? ... place your trust in Littlefinger or Roose?) or a starkly dark comedy of the world from the point of view of the Boltons, how everyone is better off with them in charge of the north ("Under the Starks, you were starving to death, but we Boltons know how to treat a guest, we flay you alive! See, it was a play on death and life. Anyway, a death by flaying is still faster than slowly starving out on your shit hole of a farm.")
posted by filthy light thief at 8:19 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


An ongoing theme of the show is its strong focus on the children over their parents. (Cersei and Jamie's kids being something of an exception.) This isn't the story of Ned/Catelyn, Tywin, Balon, Aerys or Jeor. It's a story about their children, the invisible ties that bind them to their families, and their journeys to find their places in the world, so to speak. Guess we'll have to see if Shireen's story follows the same path.
posted by zarq at 8:30 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


By the end of the series, Jorah will crumble under the weight of carrying every extra storyline.
posted by drezdn at 8:30 AM on May 11, 2015 [15 favorites]


I never thought I'd say this, but I kind of wish the show would touch on more of the logistics at the wall. Jon has told Stannis that the food supplies are limited, and he mentioned here that the Free Folk could farm in the Gift, but Summer is over, if they're farming the Gift, it's gonna be a while first. That's a lot of starving in the cold while fighting ice demons.
posted by Navelgazer at 8:36 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


I know I'm supposed to care about Jon Snow, but I have more feelings about Shireen in the corner of the nail on my littlest finger than I do in my entire body about Jon Snow. And I'm kinda annoyed that him getting stabbed by his teenage sidekick (and others) is going to be a big thing towards the end of the season that takes up screentime that could be more profitably used by:
  • SANSA MY GIRL GOTHING IT UP MIRANDA DON'T EVEN TRY IT
  • GREY WORM AND MISSANDEI HOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOMFG LOOK AT THEM LOOK AT THEM HE FELT FEAR WHEN HE REALIZED HE WOULD NEVER SEE HER AGAIN AND THEN SHE LAY DOWN IN BED NEXT TO HIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIIM
  • Shireen
  • Arya
  • Cersei fucking up and fucking up and fucking up so more
  • Queen of Thorns, particularly the Cersei v. Queen of Thorns/Margaery showdown that is clearly coming up
  • Stannis's inevitable Lawful Neutral demise due to . . .
  • . . . Melisandre and Mama Shireen being utter Lawful Evil creeps. WILL SHIREEN SURVIVE BECAUSE DAVOS SMUGGLES HER OUT????
  • Tommen, and his poor sweet, stupid face
  • The Tyrion Lannister and Jorah Mormont Poetry Recital Hour Now With Extra Leprosy Analogies and Male Bonding
  • Sam and Gilly Feed The Baby, and Gilly Tells More Horrifying Stories About Her Incest Sisters
  • Ser Pounce, because goddammit, one scene was not enough
  • And so on and so forth. I think I might even be more interested in Theon than I am in Jon Snow and his Inevitable Stabby Betrayal.
    posted by joyceanmachine at 8:49 AM on May 11, 2015 [14 favorites]


    Stannis is a fucking sociopath (like the other major contenders in GoT) -- but importantly to us contemporary viewers, he's a consistent fucking sociopath. Rules is rules for Stannis, no matter who you are

    I think that "Stannis is the Mannis" line of thinking comes from a few different things. Yes, it is in part his love for rules and consistency. "Every man shall reap what he has sown, from the highest lord to the lowest gutter rat. And some will lose more than the tips off their fingers, I promise you." In a world as capricious as Westeros, we always know where Stannis stands, what he thinks, and what he will do. He is "just past the point of wisdom", but he is just. We also know that he will do his duty. Duty is the other part:

    "I am king. Wants do not enter into it. I have a duty to my daughter. To the realm. Even to Robert. He loved me but little, I know, yet he was my brother. "

    "We do not choose our destinies. Yet we must ... we must do our duty, no? Great or small, we must do our duty"

    It is his dedication to duty that could've tilted him the other way, in terms of being an irredeemable sociopath:

    "Gold is cold and heavy on the head, but so long as I am the king, I have a duty … If I must sacrifice one child to the flames to save a million from the dark … Sacrifice … is never easy, Davos. Or it is no true sacrifice"

    But Davos brought him back using that dedication to duty:

    "Lord Seaworth is a man of humble birth, but he reminded me of my duty, when all I could think of was my rights. I had the cart before the horse, Davos said. I was trying to win the throne to save the kingdom, when I should have been trying to save the kingdom to win the throne. "

    Since then, while he hasn't changed dramatically, he's been trying. He listened to Jon Snow about what he needed to do to win Northerners to his cause, and he did it. In the books, he's the one pointing out to the Watch that the wildlings need to make common cause with them to face their foe (in the show he was all about the wildlings being another army to help him secure his position; Jon has presented the idea differently, in the "common foe" pitch, and I think that is why Stannis will loan him the boats - Jon might succeed where he failed). He's implacable, he's stubborn, he's iron ("Stannis is pure iron, black and hard and strong, yes, but brittle, the way iron gets. He’ll break before he bends"), but he's one of the few trying to actually achieve something beyond the throne - the throne is a duty, not a want, just like this larger war is a duty.

    Which is about as close as we get to a decent leader in Westeros: Just, dutiful, dedicated to a larger cause, and occasionally willing to listen to another point of view.
    posted by nubs at 8:53 AM on May 11, 2015 [23 favorites]


    "From the way it's carrying, the maester thinks it'll be a plot device."
    posted by drezdn at 8:55 AM on May 11, 2015 [20 favorites]


    Oh yeah, Missandei and Grey Worm. There was a chorus of gay "AWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWWW" at the watching party last night when she laid down next to him.

    If they skip the whole Young Griff nonsense, it'll be--to a point--a pretty solid indication that Gurm was yanking our chain with all that. Please oh please oh please.
    posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 8:55 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    Which is also to say that I've been pleasantly surprised at how much I'm enjoying Tyrion's travelogue, both in the form of the wagon with Varys and now the slog with Mormont. I'd been dreading it due to how much I hated the book version, both for the poor execution (WHERE DO WHORES GO????) and for the moral obnoxiousness (please, GRRM, keep trying to make me empathize/like Tyrion again by showing just how bad he feels about murdering Shae)

    Question: Was the dragon we saw flying over the river Dany's missing dragon? Or was that supposed to be telling us that there are additional dragons int he world?
    posted by joyceanmachine at 8:56 AM on May 11, 2015


    Was the dragon we saw flying over the river Dany's missing dragon?

    Yes.
    posted by the man of twists and turns at 8:59 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    Question: Was the dragon we saw flying over the river Dany's missing dragon? Or was that supposed to be telling us that there are additional dragons int he world?

    I'm pretty sure it was supposed to be Drogon, Dany's free-range dragon. Such a big deal has been made over her dragons being the only ones living that introducing new ones would be a huge, game-changing narrative twist.
    posted by zarq at 9:03 AM on May 11, 2015


    And speaking of parallelism, and I loved the Roose/Ramsay bonding scene as a wonderful callback to last week's Stannis/Shireen bonding moment. Parents and their children! So heartwarming!
    posted by nubs at 9:03 AM on May 11, 2015 [5 favorites]


    Dany burns people alive (and lets her husband kill her brother) and rants against usurpers: "OMG bestest ruler ever!"

    As posted by The Whelk over in the Show Only thread: There's a reason the family motto is BLOOD AND FIRE and not BLOOD AND REASONABLE GOVERNMENT.
    posted by nubs at 9:06 AM on May 11, 2015 [13 favorites]


    (WHERE DO WHORES GO????)

    To Baelish's brothels, of course.
    posted by zarq at 9:07 AM on May 11, 2015


    As someone who gave up on the books by this point and just read the wiki to find out what happened, I'm very pleased with how things are being condensed, moved around, etc.
    posted by The Whelk at 9:12 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    Yeah, I'm kinda mixed on it - I like some moves, but I'm worried that some others are going to mean that the emotional beats at the closures of certain storylines are muted because things are going to get shoe-horned in. I get that the show runners have 25 hours left to tell everything and GRRM an unlimited number of pages, but I think both present their own sets of problems.

    I guess the good thing is, as someone who enjoys large, sprawling novels generally, I get to have the best of both worlds - I can see how the TV show wraps everything up, and should still get the books. Eventually.
    posted by nubs at 9:18 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    And speaking of parallelism, and I loved the Roose/Ramsay bonding scene as a wonderful callback to last week's Stannis/Shireen bonding moment. Parents and their children! So heartwarming!

    Yeah, I enjoyed that, insofar as I ever enjoy anything with the Boltons. In particular, I really liked the parallel set-up that you mention.

    Both scenes are about hard goddamn men and their kids. Both scenes are triggered by something happening with the wife that causes the current kid to doubt their continued importance. For Shireen, it's her mother's attitude towards her. For Ramsay, it's Walda being pregnant. Both scenes take the form of a father affirming a child's worth to them by telling a story about how they saved their kid's life even though it was somewhat out of line with their usual conduct -- Stannis breaks form and doesn't send Shireen off, out of sight, out of mind, right? Roose doesn't kill the baby when the lady shows up.

    In addition, in each case, the father arguably set up the bad thing to happen -- but what they did, of course, is very, very different. Stannis buys his daughter an overpriced doll even though he knows it's overpriced and buying it is an affirmation of how soppy he is about her. In contrast, Roose, y'know. Raped a woman underneath the tree where her husband's body was dangling after being executed for a marriage carred out in secret POSSIBLY TO DENY HIM HIS PRIMA NOCTA RIGHTS. Notably, too, Stannis and Shireen's ends with Stannis affirming both her personal importance and her social importance, and then they have a cute hug, so the scene ends with it looping back to Stannis and Shireen having a very personal bond with affection. In contrast, the end of Roose's speech is about how Ramsay will help him RULE THE WORLD.

    So yeah, I thought it was a nice piece of parallelism, and really illuminating as to the similarities and differences between two rival claimants for the throne. Given the way GOT works, though, it's probably gonna happen that Stannis dies, and the Bolltons live through the season finale, right? Sigh.
    posted by joyceanmachine at 9:26 AM on May 11, 2015 [6 favorites]


    I think at this point I'm mostly fine with the thought that the written series will never actually be finished. With the way the canon departures have gone so far, I've been overall v satisfied with the directions the various plots have taken, and only mildly vexed over most of the (many and varied) omissions. Assuming that the rest of the series continues on a relatively similar path and does not end as stupidly as True Blood or, god forfuckingbid, Lost, I'd be fine with even just one more or no more books. maybe. idk. IDK

    [flappy hands of indecision flapping in the distance]
    posted by poffin boffin at 9:28 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    also i really want michael mann to direct an episode
    posted by poffin boffin at 9:28 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


    also i really want michael mann to direct an episode

    great idea!
    posted by the man of twists and turns at 9:31 AM on May 11, 2015


    and should still get the books

    Keep dreaming. Only way the books are going to be finished now is posthumously.
    posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:32 AM on May 11, 2015


    So yeah, I thought it was a nice piece of parallelism, and really illuminating as to the similarities and differences between two rival claimants for the throne

    Yes, I like the fact that the scene with Stannis & Shireen was about ALL THE FEELS and the Ramsay/Roose conversation involves the casual discussion of murder, rape, and war just really made the parallel really work. The Stannis/Bolton confrontation looks to be shaping up as the major one for this season, so it just nailed the differences with the families very well while using two similar structures.
    posted by nubs at 9:33 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    Keep dreaming

    My House words.
    posted by nubs at 9:34 AM on May 11, 2015 [7 favorites]


    brienne and pod riding off to save sansa, close up on the horse's hooves churning the mud of the road, pod grimly loading a crossbow. they stop off in a small village for brienne to send jamie a raven asking if what they used to have, was it real, jamie? what we had, back then?
    posted by poffin boffin at 9:35 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    also i really want michael mann to direct an episode

    Ramsey menacing Sansa while In A Godda Da Vida plays, Jon Snow calls someone Daddy-o.....
    posted by The Whelk at 9:38 AM on May 11, 2015


    Seems like they've also dropped the Dornish Toast storyline from the books. Bit late to spin that one up now, so as far as I can recall there's really only one big WTF moment coming for show-only people.

    Also I'm still totally perplexed about the Loras-Margaery switcheroo.
    posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:42 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    The way storylines/characters are being collapsed, I'm half-expecting Jorah to take Quentyn's place as dragon fodder.

    Very worried about Loras. I'm wondering if his fate on the show will have any relation at all to his fate in the books. IIRC his present status in the novels is "missing, presumed horribly disfigured or dead." (Disfigured seems in keeping with Martin's general MO -- character growth via loss of previously-most-important personal quality.)
    posted by trunk muffins at 9:49 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    Sansa = Peggy
    Baelish = Don
    Daenaerys = Joan

    Pod = Meredith
    posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 9:49 AM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    WHERE DO WHORES GO????

    Now I have this really unpleasant image of Baelish going to WhoreCo -- Where The Whores Go!, which is the Westerosi branch of PetCo. To stock up on Whore Chow and new crates and beds for the whores and maybe take them to the convenient-but-not-very-good vet and it just gets way too dark too fast.
    posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 10:36 AM on May 11, 2015 [10 favorites]


    this really unpleasant image of Baelish going to WhoreCo -- Where The Whores Go!, which is the Westerosi branch of PetCo. To stock up on Whore Chow and new crates and beds for the whores and maybe take them to the convenient-but-not-very-good vet and maybe take them to the convenient-but-not-very-good vet and it just gets way too dark too fast.

    In all honesty, this is a scenario that the High Septon has probably ordered a couple times.
    posted by joyceanmachine at 10:59 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    Also I'm still totally perplexed about the Loras-Margaery switcheroo.

    But is it a complete swap? Or are we going to see Cersei build up to a trial Margaery, which brings her downfall? I don't see Loras having the same counterbalance weight to catapult Cersei from Religious Fanatics' BFF to Shameful Slut to Parade Before The Gods and People.
    posted by filthy light thief at 11:08 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    Or are we going to see Cersei build up to a trial Margaery, which brings her downfall?

    On what grounds? Margaery's virtue is not really an issue here, as she and the, uh, barely pubescent king have consummated their marriage. I think that Lancel will confess to bedding Cersei and helping her kill Robert.

    By the way, the Sparrows are WAY over the top in the TV show as compared to the books.
    posted by dhens at 11:12 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


    Well, yeah, that's my confusion. Unless this is setting up the Loras redemption via Dragonstone arc? Seems like not enough time to play that out, really.
    posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 11:13 AM on May 11, 2015


    I don't think that Dragonstone arc will play out, though Stannis did mention in this episode that there was obsidian to be had on Dragonstone, so who knows. I am not sure what the show's endgame with Loras is -- would the High Sparrow not care that he is gay (or say that he can't go around arresting everyone suspected of performing such activities)? Will he decide Cersei is a bigger fish to fry? Will both Cersei and Loras get trials by combat?

    I did notice too that Loras "the Knight of Flowers" Tyrell, one of the great warriors of the realm, who was training and surrounded by his sparring partners and presumably squires, gets rounded up by a bunch of unarmored amateurs a bit too easily.
    posted by dhens at 11:19 AM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


    Also also, if Loras has to take the place of both of his brothers from the books, he can bear the weight of being on trial in his sister's place. /wink
    posted by dhens at 11:21 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


    Gilly perfectly declared my House Words: "I'm sorry I don't know things."
    posted by memento maury at 11:24 AM on May 11, 2015 [16 favorites]


    A question for folks who watched this on normal TV-type devices: was this the second darkest episode, since the last one? I watched this on a glossy-surfaced tablet, in the day, so I had to shade the screen as much as I could to see some of the really dark scenes. Though I have to give them credit for actually shooting some night scenes at night, instead of messing with the white balance or using a blue gel to shoot day-for-night.
    posted by filthy light thief at 11:45 AM on May 11, 2015


    Yeah, I kept getting distracted by the reflection of my own gormless tv-watching :O face.
    posted by poffin boffin at 11:47 AM on May 11, 2015 [7 favorites]


    Oh, there's definitely been some day-for-night on this show recently. Like when Jorah took out the ship's owner, for instance.
    posted by Navelgazer at 11:49 AM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    Or are we going to see Cersei build up to a trial Margaery, which brings her downfall? I don't see Loras having the same counterbalance weight to catapult Cersei from Religious Fanatics' BFF to Shameful Slut to Parade Before The Gods and People.

    Well, Cersei's problem basically stems from trying to trump up evidence against Margaery - and the people who provide that evidence get tortured by the Faith so they reveal everything. It's a bit of a long, circuitous route that ends with both in custody. I think the show is going to cut through that much quicker - Lancel will testify as to the affair, the plot to kill Robert, and whatever else he knows from being in her bed (Jaime and Twincest? Any of Cersei's other schemes?) and that will be that. It could be that the Faith Militant will snap up a few other witnesses against her in their general purge as well.

    What I do wonder about - and this is one of those beats I'm afraid of them dropping - is Jaime's reaction to Cersei's "I need you X3" letter. When he ignores it in the books, it's a big character step and one that has been developed for some time. Jaime's relationship with Cersei in the show is more...intact? I guess...than it is in the books at this point, so I expect his reaction to be different.
    posted by nubs at 11:52 AM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


    was this the second darkest episode, since the last one?

    I watch on my tab. It was definitely the most monochromatic episode I can remember. But it seemed crisp, and not up there with the darkest of them. I recall three or four episodes last season that were so dark that I couldn't follow what was going on (including the battle at the wall).
    posted by kanewai at 12:29 PM on May 11, 2015




    I feel like in the books, no one, including Ramsay, is supposed to acknowledge that Reek=Theon. So it was jarring for me when Ramsay just came right out and told Reek to apologize for something Theon did. Did anyone else feel that?
    posted by showbiz_liz at 1:00 PM on May 11, 2015 [8 favorites]


    Oh my god, the wiki page for the original Reek illustrates him thusly
    posted by showbiz_liz at 1:01 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    That looks like Mihajlo Dimitrovski's work.
    posted by the man of twists and turns at 1:07 PM on May 11, 2015


    Oh my god, the wiki page for the original Reek illustrates him thusly

    Heh, that's some fan art. I also think it's supposed to represent the Reek that was not seen in the show, the first Reek. In the books, we have three Reeks:

    1. The first Reek (possibly called 'Heke'), who "tutors" Ramsay and corrupts him (or, wondered Roose, was it the other way around...).
    2. Ramsay Snow, masquerading as "Reek" to cover his own ass after he was wanted for the death of Donella Hornwood. It is under this alias that he convinces Theon (when he held Winterfell) to flay and burn the miller's boys in place of Bran and Rickon.
    3. Theon Greyjoy. While I don't think that Ramsay wants him thinking of himself as Theon Greyjoy, most of the other people in Winterfell (Roose Bolton, Barbrey Dustin, the Freys, etc.) know and think of him as Theon Greyjoy (or Theon Turncloak).
    posted by dhens at 1:21 PM on May 11, 2015 [4 favorites]


    Wow... People like the Grey Worm stuff? I'm glad someone is enjoying it.

    I feel like Quentyn's role as roast is largely there as indication that prophecy is a faulty business, which might not even be necessary with the reduced importance of prophecy in the book plot. You could conflate a lot of storylines there in one or two episodes (with liberal skips in time) and accomplish the same thing.
    posted by codacorolla at 1:43 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    What does a Targaryen like for breakfast?

    Dornish toast.
    posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 1:45 PM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    Wow... People like the Grey Worm stuff? I'm glad someone is enjoying it.

    Pistols outside. I'm not a morning person, so we can do it mid-afternoon after coffee and donuts.

    (But yes, I do enjoy the Grey Worm stuff. Sometimes, I wish the show weren't so hamhanded with the development of the Unsullied as not really being equipped to be a peacekeeping force, but I really love the hints we get of how the Unsullied hierarchy/training works, and I adore the Missandei-and-Grey-Worm stuff with full body intensity, not only because the actors are great, and because I love the hesitant, slow-blooming nature of it, but also because it offers a really important counterweight to Danerys Targaryen, Whitest White Savior Ever.

    If you're going to have a major plotline about the moral righteousness of liberating slaves of various non-white ethnic backgrounds, I goddamn expect the story to have at least a little concern about the internal emotional states of said slaves. Otherwise, it's just using non-white people as props for making white people look good, which makes me feel distinctly icky as a non-white person myself.

    Also, oh man. Brutal killing machine slowly discovering his remaining humanity and softer feelings, but at this early point, only being able to confess said softer feelings through describing fear/not-fear? Brilliant ex-slave whose life previously depended on her being able to speak all the languages, but now unable to express the depth of her feelings except with a wordless, nonverbal gesture?

    If it's wrong, I don't want to be right.)
    posted by joyceanmachine at 2:47 PM on May 11, 2015 [31 favorites]


    I LOVE the fact that the show goes into the effect being an occupying force instead of an invading force, combined with going from being a slave army of mindless killers to a volunteer army led by a trusted general who advises the Queen, is having on the Unsullied.
    posted by KathrynT at 2:59 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


    Wow... People like the Grey Worm stuff? I'm glad someone is enjoying it.

    Oh gods yes.

    I've adored Missandei from the start, for one thing. Beyond just the simple fact that this show needs POC very, very badly, she fills a fascinating role. I said this around this time last year, I think, but remember that Missandei was originally Astapor's Finest Translator, and Dany bargained for her specifically while "buying" the Unsullied. Right before proving that she didn't need a translator at all.

    Everyone around Dany, since the beginning, are all people she's been forced to ally with or else people who have come to her begging a place by her side. Drogo and his khalassar, Jorah, Ser Barristan, Daario. Even Grey Worm came to her as the elected leader of the Unsullied. Missandei is the only advisor Dany has chosen for herself, the only one she's specifically asked for, because she in invaluable. This made the scene where Dany asks her advice last night great, for me, because Missandei is also the only advisor humble enough to think she might not have an answer.

    As for Grey Worm, I just love his whole story. I like the actor. I like that the show is going places the books don't in terms of showing how a fighting force kept in line (and in discipline) by denying them anything to live for makes the transition to having possible futures and loved ones. Grey Worm wasn't just (essentially) confessing love for Missandei, but stating that he was ashamed of it. It's one of my favorite arcs going right now, and I'm loving this season.
    posted by Navelgazer at 3:47 PM on May 11, 2015 [13 favorites]


    One of the things I love about Grey Worm is that Jacob Anderson, the actor who plays him, is the favorite actor of David J. Peterson, the conlanger who developed the languages for the show from the bits and bobs GRRM has in the books. Peterson just raves about how well he speaks Valyrian.

    So, even if I didn't like the stuff with Missandei, I'd still have fun watching him because it's fun to watch someone be really good at something. Since I do enjoy the relationship between those two characters, it's just good all around.
    posted by ocherdraco at 4:00 PM on May 11, 2015 [12 favorites]


    I feel like in the books, no one, including Ramsay, is supposed to acknowledge that Reek=Theon. So it was jarring for me when Ramsay just came right out and told Reek to apologize for something Theon did. Did anyone else feel that?

    Definitely- I interpret that as another example of show Ramsay being zanier and more spontaneous than book Ramsay. But also as another example of how, for the writers, believable characterization comes second to constructing interesting scenes. In a good way- the Most Awkward Dinner Ever scene had great dialogue and acting. But Sansa agreeing to go to Winterfell makes zero sense in about 6 different ways that I'm restraining myself from enumerating. But it allows the writers to inject drama and good dialogue dialogue into her story, plus saves them a filming location and many scene transitions.
    posted by gsteff at 4:00 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


    Oh, and I forgot to mention how much I'm continuing to love Gilly and Sam, she desperately trying to level up her INT score now that she finally has an opportunity to do so, and him fumblingly trying to raise his WIS score to match.
    posted by Navelgazer at 4:28 PM on May 11, 2015 [9 favorites]


    Wait, so Milisandre rode off with Stannis and his army. So when Jon finally gets his frank and honest feedback from from his brothers, no breath of life?
    posted by Eddie Mars at 5:54 PM on May 11, 2015 [1 favorite]


    Have we seen Melisandre demonstrate that power? (I haven't read the preview chapters yet.)
    posted by Navelgazer at 5:55 PM on May 11, 2015


    We haven't seen it in-show, but (again, in-show) she does know that Thoros has successfully raised Beric six times.

    Don't think she knows that in the books, though.
    posted by coriolisdave at 6:04 PM on May 11, 2015


    Doesn't Jon need to start warging into Ghost pretty damn soon? Otherwise it'll just come out of nowhere when he does it after stabby stab stab.
    posted by Justinian at 6:19 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


    Hopefully Jon 2.0 is smart enough to bring Ghost with him to Hardhome.
    posted by Navelgazer at 6:32 PM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    In the books, Jon doesn't go to hardhome - Cotter Pike is delegated rescue duty.
    I suspect that the stabbitystabstab is going to happen when he's out there, rather than back at Castle le Noir
    posted by coriolisdave at 6:58 PM on May 11, 2015


    While I understand that show can't really do the Jeyne Poole-fake Arya plot, replacing her with Sansa would seem to throw up a big problem. Littlefinger just handwaves away Roose Bolton's concern that marrying Sansa to Ramsay would anger Cersei, but in fact, this seems really important. Baelish is harboring someone who was suspected as a co-conspirator in Joff's murder, and using her toward his own ends? Hopefully this will be addressed soon -- it looks like the next episode will feature Baelish back in King's Landing.
    posted by dhens at 7:02 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


    Nah, we saw how they're setting the pieces. Stannis & Co. are heading to Winterfell, Jon is heading to Hardhome, and Sam, Gilly and Aemon are about to head for the Citadel. Castle Black is going to be a massive crucible for violent dissent. Ollie will bring the knife home.
    posted by Navelgazer at 7:03 PM on May 11, 2015


    In the books, Jon doesn't go to hardhome - Cotter Pike is delegated rescue duty.
    I suspect that the stabbitystabstab is going to happen when he's out there, rather than back at Castle le Noir


    But the point stands: Has the show shown us that Jon can warg? If not, might it need to do so soon?

    If the Ides of Marsh (or Ides of Ollie?) happen at Hardhome, it's debatable if Ghost would need to be nearby for Jon to get his "second life" or not (Arya can warg into Nymeria from across the Narrow Sea).

    I would love to see the Oldtown plot, but I don't know if that will happen in the show, or if it will happen but differently. I don't think they've cast any of the Summer Islanders from the Cinnamon Wind.

    Spoiler (derived from the Season 5 preview, huge animated GIF):
    If this is Aemon, being burnt after dying of natural causes, it might help reinforce the king's blood/fire magic motif that could be coming up later. (Run, Shireen!)
    posted by dhens at 7:15 PM on May 11, 2015 [2 favorites]


    A standing question I have is why a seemingly all-powerful (or at least semi-powerful) deity like R'Hllor has such a yen for the blood of people who claim royalty.
    posted by codacorolla at 7:20 PM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    Has the show shown us that Jon can warg? If not, might it need to do so soon?

    Everyone who has read the books just assumes that Jon will be resurrected. Speculation is that it'll happen either through Melisandre or through Jon warging into Ghost (or both). I think it'll be pretty funny if the show robs viewers of both those expectations by having Melisandre go south and have the stabbers kill Ghost as well as Jon (or something like that). Just to freak everyone out and cause them to revisit their expectations for the next book and next season.
    posted by painquale at 7:26 PM on May 11, 2015


    Jon hasn't warged. I don't see that happening this season as they're not foreshadowing that in any way.
    posted by Ik ben afgesneden at 7:43 PM on May 11, 2015


    If they start reintroducing the bond between Jon and Ghost on the ride to Hardhome, then I can see them using the Warg storyline. Ghost has been fairly absent over this last season for sure, and much of the previous too.
    posted by codacorolla at 7:49 PM on May 11, 2015


    The show has done as little with the direwolves as it possibly can, at like every single point once they got too big/too old to use regular trained animals for. Apparently CGI wolves are much more expensive than CGI dragons, idk? But yeah I'm not holding my breath for the showrunners to show Jon warging, or even for them to remember that Ghost exists.
    posted by mstokes650 at 10:02 PM on May 11, 2015 [3 favorites]


    Apparently CGI wolves are much more expensive than CGI dragons

    This makes sense to me. We all know or can easily google what wolves (even pseudo-fantastical wolves) look like, so they have to look real. Dragons can look like anything, so you get some sleight of hand and a few hours less of a CGI artist's time.
    posted by feckless fecal fear mongering at 10:09 PM on May 11, 2015


    Agreed. I imagine, in fact, that Drogon was the least expensive CGI aspect around that whole insane Valyria sequence in this episode.
    posted by Navelgazer at 10:13 PM on May 11, 2015




    He's so lawful neutral he shits modrons.

    Oh hai, that feeling of "Ha ha, that's hilarious OH GOD I AM A MASSIVE NERD". It's been a while.
    posted by Mr. Bad Example at 4:42 AM on May 12, 2015 [5 favorites]


    Chrys Watches Got
    posted by nubs at 9:32 AM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


    Apparently CGI wolves are much more expensive than CGI dragons

    This makes sense to me.


    It really doesn't to me. Between green screen trickery and the ease of modeling animals, I'm doubtful this is the reason. I've seen cheesy sitcoms use CG more extensively, so the loss of the wolves just sticks out like a sore thumb.

    I wonder what show only watchers think; The wolves seem to be set up as important, then . . . Nothing.
    posted by [insert clever name here] at 10:45 AM on May 12, 2015 [1 favorite]


    I wonder what show only watchers think; The wolves seem to be set up as important, then . . . Nothing.

    Particularly frustrating as GRRM said that the image of the children coming across the direwolf pups was the very first spark of what would become A Song of Ice and Fire.
    posted by dhens at 11:03 AM on May 12, 2015


    The next several hundred images were beards and chins with juice running down them, and we've seen like none of those either.
    posted by davidjmcgee at 12:17 PM on May 12, 2015 [9 favorites]


    Particularly frustrating as GRRM said that the image of the children coming across the direwolf pups was the very first spark of what would become A Song of Ice and Fire.

    And there he sat, pondering this image for an age, until it came to him: what if everyone ate eels all the time?! And that is how the magic happens.
    posted by Navelgazer at 2:33 PM on May 12, 2015 [12 favorites]


    The next several hundred images were beards and chins with juice running down them

    Sadly "beard juice" is associated with "vaping," or I'd suggest someone start a beardjuice.tumblr.com account post haste.

    Then again, I don't think the joke would be worth the effort, and could result in finding some really disturbing images.
    posted by filthy light thief at 3:03 PM on May 12, 2015


    I really enjoy the Cersei meme image that's making the rounds.

    Lena Headey is the best.
    posted by painquale at 7:52 PM on May 12, 2015 [2 favorites]


    I know I've already talked about Gilly, but Hannah Murray's performance really is a masterstroke, as is the writing behind it. She just manages perfectly the shy, child-like wonder of someone encountering the world for the first time with the astuteness of someone who could have done so well had she not been raised in horror. It's like a funhouse-mirror Kimmy Schmidt.
    posted by Navelgazer at 8:44 PM on May 13, 2015 [13 favorites]


    It's like a funhouse-mirror Kimmy Schmidt.

    That is just perfect.
    posted by Pope Guilty at 8:47 PM on May 13, 2015 [1 favorite]


    Arya never warged in the show, only in the books.
    posted by aabbbiee at 8:49 AM on May 14, 2015


    I feel like Quentyn's role as roast is largely there as indication that prophecy is a faulty business,

    I actually thought part of why he was there was to show that Dany is still not making these kinds of decisions well. That whole fire/mud thing.
    posted by corb at 12:18 PM on May 14, 2015


    I see Quentyn as doing a couple of things. Firstly, in the ongoing Game of Tropes being played with in the series, he's the reluctant hero on a quest to save the kingdom - The Hero's Journey. He doesn't want to go - he was happy at Lord Yronwood's, and falling in love with one of his daughters, and certainly doesn't view himself as any kind of hero or saviour (The Ordinary World). But family and duty Call him to Adventure. (Of course, instead of having to slay the dragon to save the kingdom and wed the princess, his job is to wed the Dragon Queen to save the kingdom, which is kind of a cool thing in and of itself). So he undertakes the journey, reluctantly, wishing he could go back, scared of the danger that reveals itself when some of his companions are killed (Refusal of the Call).

    When their plans start to fail (masquerading as merchants), they come up with a new one - joining a mercenary company (Crossing the Threshold to a new condition, with different rules and values). He struggles to fit in and figure things out in terms of what the possibilities are and fears being discovered(Tests, Allies and Enemies). Finally, they get to meet Danerys (The Approach) which fails, so Quentyn conceives of a new plan - subdue a dragon himself (The Ordeal). Normally, after confronting death in the ordeal, the hero wins and comes back with a new life. Except here, Quentyn doesn't come back - Quentyn confronts death and dies. End of journey; no Return with the Elixir. I realize this summation of it is missing the Mentor figure, and in all honesty I can't recall if there is one that I forget or if there isn't one, which maybe sets up the failure.

    Anyways, that's how I see Quentyn in the meta-narrative. In terms of the meat and bones of the story, I view him as fulfilling the "Sun shall rise in the West and set in the East" portion of Mirri's prophecy to Dany, bits and pieces of which may be getting fulfilled.
    posted by nubs at 12:47 PM on May 14, 2015 [5 favorites]


    I realize this summation of it is missing the Mentor figure, and in all honesty I can't recall if there is one that I forget or if there isn't one, which maybe sets up the failure.

    The maester that accompanied Quentyn and company died before Quentyn's POVs start.
    posted by dhens at 2:01 PM on May 17, 2015


    But family and duty Call him to Adventure.

    Also regarding Quentyn: the first sentence of his first chapter is "Adventure stank." This of course refers to the ship on which Quentyn, Archibald, and Gerrold are traveling, but it's hard not to see it as a thinly-veiled commentary on GRRM's part.
    posted by dhens at 2:12 PM on May 17, 2015


    To quote the Queen of Thorns: What veil?
    posted by nubs at 11:12 AM on May 18, 2015 [1 favorite]


    It occurred to me a few weeks ago that the interactions between the Northerners and the Wildlings would be much easier for me to understand if the Wildlings had a different skin color. Racism!
    posted by bq at 8:25 AM on May 20, 2015


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