Hannibal: Secondo

June 18, 2015 8:03 PM - Season 3, Episode 3

Will travels to Lithuania where he gains a new ally in his search for Hannibal Lecter while Jack Crawford makes his way to Italy with some searching of his own.

Jack looks good in a beard, snails look way freaky filmed the way this show does things, Hannibal spikes more than the punch! Will kinda fucks up pretty badly! I didn't know it was possible to make washing someone's hair so... threatening.

posted by sparkletone (332 comments total)

OVERWHELMED CANNIBAL NOISES
posted by poffin boffin at 8:04 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

The biggest insult wasn't that Will killed Hannibal's revenge-murder-puppet, it was that he stole that moth idea from a sketch on Hannibal's MurderArt Pinterest board.
posted by codacorolla at 8:04 PM on June 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

I'm not sure how I feel about things right now. And the fact that I was really struggling with hearing the dialogue more than usual didn't help.
posted by PussKillian at 8:05 PM on June 18, 2015

i watch everything with the caps on so i don't miss stuff deafly anymore. the sound effect captions are always a joy to behold.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:07 PM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

Is Chiyoh a book character, or an invention of the show, by the way?
posted by codacorolla at 8:09 PM on June 18, 2015

Book.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:09 PM on June 18, 2015

but if we're going to go into book stuff then that entire scenario was show-created, save the mischa details.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:10 PM on June 18, 2015

I HAVE SO MANY QUESTIONS

ALSO THEYRE VERY GOOD FRIENDS

VERY
GOOD
FRIENDS
posted by The Whelk at 8:12 PM on June 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

I LOVED THE RETURN OF HANNIBAL'S SMUG HA HA I MADE YOU EAT PEOPLE MEAT SMILE

BEDELIA IS PLAYING MURDER CHICKEN

TWO PEOPLE WHO TEHCNICALLY KILLED SOMEONE ELSE

AAAAAH
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 PM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

That hard cut from the pheasant being chopped to the hand being cut off was hilarious
posted by The Whelk at 8:14 PM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

the facial expressions of the italian couple eating what i assume were bits of professor sogliato were FUCKING GLORIOUS
posted by poffin boffin at 8:16 PM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

There were quite a few laugh moments for me this episode. Not that it's light, exactly. But Hannibal is being such a deliciously smug fucker in this episode. "TECHNICALLY, YOU KILLED THAT ONE. I BEHAVED." was delightful.
posted by sparkletone at 8:17 PM on June 18, 2015 [12 favorites]

OH HOW I CACKLED at his "that may have been somewhat impulsive"
posted by poffin boffin at 8:18 PM on June 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

Soooo. How'd your sister taste?
BEDELIA OUT!
posted by Dr. Zira at 8:19 PM on June 18, 2015 [23 favorites]

Bedelia does not flinch. She may tremble a little, from time to time, but she does not flinch.
posted by PussKillian at 8:19 PM on June 18, 2015

Bedelia and Hannibal tip toed up to a murderous Nick and Jora and it was amazing

Also, note the animal connections, human arm becomes a feathered meat arm, pheasant bones made into little people doll, dolls turned into a weapon, a corpse turned into a winged bug....
posted by The Whelk at 8:20 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

But WHY did Will decide to make Murder Art at the end? What was the point? That he got a taste for it back in last season when playing his game with Hannibal? They repeatedly mentioned that Hannibal will not go 'home' so he's not going to see it. Is it a clue for authorities? But does anyone expect the authorities to go there, as wouldn't they have already if it seemed they might find clues to his current whereabouts?
posted by Windigo at 8:20 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Sepinwall was a bit lukewarm on this one, feeling it wandered too far out past the edge of style-over-everything.
posted by sparkletone at 8:21 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

will's rueful sort of embarrassed smile when he was like "i really know who i am when i'm around him" GAVE ME SO MANY EMOTIONS
posted by poffin boffin at 8:21 PM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

I will have the caps on for the second watch on NBC.com, but you can't get caps when you're watching via antenna, yeah? Or have I not pressed the right magic button on the remote?

So much smug cannibal humor in this one. TECHNICALLY.

But I really don't know how to feel about Will right now. Reallllly don't know.
posted by PussKillian at 8:21 PM on June 18, 2015

They've never gotten this explicit with the "Will and Hanni sitting in a tree" stuff before.

Also holy fuck that ice pick tho
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:21 PM on June 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

I feel like the show and Hannibal himself are progressively coming unraveled. The shrewd mastermind of early days is now just a murderous brat; this Hannibal couldn't possibly have deferred gratification long enough to keep Abigail or Agent My Girl alive for months.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 8:21 PM on June 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

they are MURDER HUSBANDS now
posted by poffin boffin at 8:22 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I like how the closer we get to Hannibal's true nature the more gothic horror movie it becomes


His ancestral home has a LITERAL DUNGEON, I'm pretty sure the villagers nearby cross themselves when mentioning the DRACULA CASTLE
posted by The Whelk at 8:22 PM on June 18, 2015 [7 favorites]

Oh no, I think I'm right

I think it happened again and the worst thing I could imagine is going to happen

Will is going to Clarice this out -- the only way to stop Hannibal, because he can't be caught, is to be with him so he doesn't kill indiscriminately. He's gonna beauty and the beast this out.

Meanwhile next week we have the AVENGERS OF VENGENCE ASSEMBLE.

So excite.
posted by The Whelk at 8:24 PM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

"What is a man? A miserable little pile of secrets." -- Dracula, but also Hannibal probably.
posted by sparkletone at 8:24 PM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

Will seems like he has finally truly tipped over the edge after the events at the end of last season. He's basically just killing time practicing Murder Art until he can be reunited with his Very Good Friend, isn't he? Murder husbands indeed.
posted by Windigo at 8:24 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think I agree with Sepinwall, as I read his take on it. I got a little impatient during Will's tour through Dracula's castle, and I was impatient to return to Bedelia and the Murder Follies.
posted by PussKillian at 8:25 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Can I give a shout-out to Rinaldo Rocco? Because seriously, it can't be easy to scramble emotions and facial expressions every 3/4 second in the course of pretending you have an icepick through the temple. Well done, dude. Not sorry to see your character go, but well done.
posted by komara at 8:25 PM on June 18, 2015 [14 favorites]

Wanna know what Bedilia's "plan" is to get out of whatever may come. She seemed pretty self-assured at that, more so that usual.

Might have just been the wine, though.
posted by Windigo at 8:26 PM on June 18, 2015

"They've never gotten this explicit with the "Will and Hanni sitting in a tree" stuff before."

I love how Befelia's flowery metaphors for will and Hannibal's relationship get blunter and blunter

ALSO

"How do you know Hannibal?"
"it's complicated."
"forgiven word for an unusually close friendship and all the cultural baggage that implies."
"yep, we are totally that"

Even in the 40s that would be as blunt as having your character drop French words and lisp while putting a cane on their lips.
posted by The Whelk at 8:27 PM on June 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

Kittens, I don't disagree, but I think it's a development in Hannibal's character, not an error in the show. I think getting so close to being caught made him realize how much he wants to be known for who he is, even if it means being caught for real.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:27 PM on June 18, 2015 [6 favorites]

so the hannibal rising movie was pretty rubbishy and while the book is somewhat better it's still obviously no silence of the lambs, BUT, the background hannibal info is pretty great, whether or not it all ends up being adjusted for modern canon.
posted by poffin boffin at 8:28 PM on June 18, 2015

why am i so enthusiastic about the minutiae of innermost cannibal thoughts and details

it is a mystery
posted by poffin boffin at 8:29 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Those Titanic slushy drinks, they needed a little umbrella. Just sayin'.
posted by Windigo at 8:29 PM on June 18, 2015

a mystery wrapped in an enigma wrapped in HUMAN PROSCIUTTO
posted by poffin boffin at 8:30 PM on June 18, 2015 [13 favorites]

I love Bedelia's whole "Really, a Titantic cocktail? You want to be at least a little subtler?"

Guy always needs an audience to appreciate his work, Bedelia is the only honest critic he has.
posted by The Whelk at 8:31 PM on June 18, 2015 [17 favorites]

Can't lie, I could use a little more plot, and I seem to recall Will OCCASIONALLY speaking like he didn't swallow the entire Harris canon
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:32 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Brian Reitzell getting that NYT shine.
posted by sparkletone at 8:33 PM on June 18, 2015

As before, I'm going to appreciate this so much more in three hour chunks without Verizon commercials and ads for Jimmy Fallon live
posted by The Whelk at 8:34 PM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

It was pretty nice to see Julian Richings as "Man in Cage"; not that he's lacking for work.
posted by detachd at 8:34 PM on June 18, 2015

Also every week the race to finish eating dinner before Hannibal starts gets more and more dicey, and it's not even because I'm worried I'll be grossed out mid-meal, IT'S BECAUSE HIS FOOD IS SO PRETTY THAT MINE GETS SAD
posted by poffin boffin at 8:34 PM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

When Hannibal said the Titanic thing and then it cut to Bedelia's face, I laughed for so long that I was still laughing when the ice pick happened
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:35 PM on June 18, 2015 [7 favorites]

"I'm going to eat him." There you go. Nice clear motivation, sets things up for the rest of the season. That's how I like my writing.

I didn't realize it until now, but Vincenzo Natali has been directing these for a while. He was slated for Neuromancer, once upon a time. He's done an amazing job.
posted by codacorolla at 8:35 PM on June 18, 2015

Bedelia knows Hannibal is unravelling. And he has to unravel, and soon, and get caught, if they're going to do anything resembling Red Dragon this season.

This episode was very amusing considering what was said about Hannibal Rising not being canon.

Will does Murder Art again, because Will has to become Hannibal in order to catch Hannibal. Which is why he will run and hide under a blankie once Hannibal is caught so as to avoid doing that stuff any more. Then Jack will do something spoilery spoil spoils spoilssss that is totally uncool.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:36 PM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

So, which one suggested to the other that Hannibal wash Bedelia's hair?
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:39 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

"I'm going to eat him."

I presume Hannibal edited out a word from the end of that line.
posted by The Whelk at 8:40 PM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

So, which one suggested to the other that Hannibal wash Bedelia's hair?

Totally Hannibal. He's kinda creepy like that I've noticed, ya know?
posted by Windigo at 8:40 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

Well Hannibal didn't say which part he would eat.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:40 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

I didn't realize it until now, but Vincenzo Natali has been directing these for a while. He was slated for Neuromancer, once upon a time. He's done an amazing job.

My favorite behind the scenes tidbit about Natali is that apparently someone else was set to direct 2x10, but they heard Fuller's pitch for the 5-way and weren't up for it. Natali heard the pitch and was like, "FUCKIN' SIGN ME UP, MAN. LET'S GET WEIRD."

So of course it makes sense they'd tap him for this super hallucinatory early stretch of S3.
posted by sparkletone at 8:40 PM on June 18, 2015 [5 favorites]

So, which one suggested to the other that Hannibal wash Bedelia's hair?

I took that as a visual metaphor similar to the one used in the Cialis commercials. Because this is not HBO and while they can show murder art the old in-out-in-out is more of a problem.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:43 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

Fun IMDB fact: Natali worked for the art department of Eek! The Cat.
posted by codacorolla at 8:43 PM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

I took that as a visual metaphor similar to the one used in the Cialis commercials. Because this is not HBO and while they can show murder art the old in-out-in-out is more of a problem.

If your murder tableaux moth-man remains up for four hours or more, consult your doctor.
posted by The Whelk at 8:46 PM on June 18, 2015 [10 favorites]

Omg Tom of course. Hannibal and Bedelia snuggling after a fireworks show. Hannibal putting his hand on Bedelia's shoulder after a doubles tennis match. Hannibal and Bedelia holding hands in a field of wildflowers. Ask your doctor if cannibal art murder is right for you.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:46 PM on June 18, 2015 [11 favorites]

...and if he says 'no' then icepick the fucker
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:48 PM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

So, not even a joke, but - why do fireflies display? In order to attract a mate.
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:50 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

I am sure there are multiple Ph.D. theses waiting to be written about all the visual metaphors and tricks with light and color and of course the FOOD in this series.

One thing they are being true to vs. Harris, in a way none of the movies could, is the pacing. Harris spent like 20 or 30 pages on Will's tour of the first house in Red Dragon. Every sensation is described, every little thing that might be out of whack or might not. The first season really shorthanded this with the pendulum device. No we're seeing the pace Harris typically wrote. You don't just flash into Hannibal's mind, you have to kind of slide into it. Savor the tastes. Maybe let it wash your hair.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:56 PM on June 18, 2015 [4 favorites]

The AV Club reviewer loved this week's episode.
posted by sparkletone at 9:12 PM on June 18, 2015

I love the indulgence of this show compared to most TV, like yes, have vast nearly wordless stretches so we can contemplate visual narrative and and composition. One real problems with all the good drama going to TV is that even the most visual-centric TV show tends to be boringly or just competently shot and lit - not so here.
posted by The Whelk at 9:24 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

"the first bite is the eye" or so the French say....
posted by The Whelk at 9:24 PM on June 18, 2015

But what’s so impressive about “Secondo” is it allows the show to take us back into Lecter’s past, back to his origin, but refuses to give the audience, or Hannibal, an easy out.

the review mentions a good point part of the appeal of Hannibal as a character is that he seems to come out of nowhere, an alien from Planet Europe, something in a person suit - and I thought the episode threaded the needle in providing back story without really *explaining* anything in a pat manor. Going to the DRACULA CASTLE doesn't really shed anymore light on Hannibal, it just makes things even more mythic and murky.
posted by The Whelk at 9:28 PM on June 18, 2015 [1 favorite]

more like castle snackula
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:32 PM on June 18, 2015 [9 favorites]

okay I read about the history of Punch Romaine and it's so fussy and complicated of course Hannibal would serve it someone who got two sips in before getting stabbed.
posted by The Whelk at 9:34 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

I still can't get over Hannibal's over the top circus-y stripe suit. They even had snocones and knife-throwing at dinner!
posted by Dr. Zira at 9:56 PM on June 18, 2015 [13 favorites]

He's wearing that suit in a bunch of the promo photos and I still react with incredulity to it. Like he should just go all out, get a cane and a hat, and launch into pun-riddled old times Cannibal Songs if he's gonna dress like that.
posted by sparkletone at 9:59 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

That stripe suit would not be out of place for a rich southern Italian in the 70s actually*, the 70s was big on patterned mensware but Italy was like, full on carnival prints.

*Esp. if you wanted to code your character was rich but somehow unsavory.
posted by The Whelk at 10:01 PM on June 18, 2015 [3 favorites]

People in the comments section are asking like - what's the most gruesome thing this show has ever done what with the Hartdeer and all and for my money, nothing beats the person waking up in the mural at the start of season two.


Cause while heartdigos and cutting off your face are terrible, the ties and eyelets of the stitching holding the mural people in place are basically shoestring ties and I tie my shoes EVERYDAY.

Plus I've been terrified of waking up in surgery but being unable to move since I saw that 20/20 show about it when I was 11.
posted by The Whelk at 10:13 PM on June 18, 2015 [2 favorites]

MANORAIL!
posted by Dr. Zira at 10:14 PM on June 18, 2015

I wasn't really into the grotesqueness of the first season, but at this point, this show has become a high art. You could close your eyes and let the sound design alone wash over you. I hope Brian Fuller gets the full seven season he's mapped out.

I didn't quite get why Will made that man into a moth at the end... who did he expect would find that?
posted by Catblack at 11:42 PM on June 18, 2015

it doesn't matter WHO finds it, because when it's found, hannibal will know that will made it for him.

altho tbh i assume jack will find it.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:26 AM on June 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

Post-mortem video with Mads talking about 3x03.
posted by sparkletone at 1:37 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Nothing says romance like " I made a half man, half moth for you!"
posted by The Whelk at 5:50 AM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

So next week, does Alana go looking for Jack?

I love the sheer, exhilarating amorality of this show. So much media - especially from the United States, and especially television and specifically U.S. network television - is mired in what I can only describe as bourgeois sentimentality. Yet here, on U.S. network television is this masterful Sadeian fantasy where the worst triumph, the sinless are consumed, the upstanding don't stand a chance and no one is innocent. Magnificent.

(Even in captivity, Hannibal will be triumphant, somehow.)

Also, this season has led me to newly-mint the epithet Stricklandesque.
posted by Grangousier at 5:52 AM on June 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

Fireflies light up to attract mates or prey.
posted by tel3path at 5:53 AM on June 19, 2015

Firefly larva also eat snails during their transformation phase into an imago so it's a pretty dense visual -- they're basically playing art murder mash notes while pulling deep cuts from each ither's collection like serial killer mix tapes.
posted by The Whelk at 6:11 AM on June 19, 2015 [8 favorites]

Currently taking bets on Will getting close to Hannibal, having him let his guard down again, and then Chinyo sniper shooting the bastard from a roof.

Also taking bets that she shoots Will.
posted by The Whelk at 6:26 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

So basically tell me if this is how you're reading this season so far....

Will fought against Hannibal's influence over the past two seasons, trying to trip him up and remain on the path of "good." Or at the very least, not delving into full-on Murder Husband. He goes so far as to try and convince Hannibal he's ready to run away with him, leading to truly indulging the darker aspects of himself because you can't fake that with Hanni. That all goes down in flames, leaving Will even worse off. So NOW here we are, and Will's basically on the knife's edge of truly going over to Hannibal's side, it seems. Is he trying to catch Hannibal still? Or just needs to see him again for some sort of existential closure? Or is he ready to accept a place at Hannibal's side?

So now he's doing Murder Art again. The big thing is, he has yet to murder someone. Last season his materials were gained in self-defense with the purpose of catching Hannibal. Now he went one stop further and basically set a murder in motion, nominally keeping his hands "clean" to get Hannibal's attention (he hopes?). So the final step would be if he just outright kills someone with no purpose other than, ya know, it's fun. But the twist is, that Hanni's feeling all salty and thinks he can only forgive/accept Will back if it's in the form of Will-based corn dogs.

Is that where everyone else is?
posted by Windigo at 6:28 AM on June 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

In other news, I am currently finding snails kinda creepy, which whoops that's my back.
posted by Windigo at 6:34 AM on June 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm going to need to watch this one again - other people and cats in my house were having lives that didn't involve fancy cannibals and were making noise and distractions, so I missed some crucial stuff. Damn jerks that I live with.

So I totally lost the narrative thread of the murder-moth-tableau and will refrain from comment there until I watch again and figure out what I missed.

But I can say at this point that Smug Happy Duckling Cannibal continues to be the most hilarious thing in the world to me, with all the TECHNICALLY I DID NOT KILL ANYONE. YOU. YOU DID THAT. I AM JUST OVER HERE EATING SUPER FANCY APPETIZERS. I love smug happy Mads more than anything.
posted by Stacey at 6:45 AM on June 19, 2015 [14 favorites]

Of course the Murder Art is to lure Hannibal in. This is a long, long game on both (all?) sides.
posted by h00py at 6:45 AM on June 19, 2015

I have a theory (that it's a demon, wait no)

As long as Hannibal lives, Will is in danger. It's an entire life of looking over your shoulder. He's going to try try again. I think he's dealing with the fact that what he says to Chinyo is true, he does feel like he knows himself better around Hannibal but Hannibal also has to die. Before he was all about capturing him, not denying him his life (if we can take conversations at knifepoint sincerely)

So he's drawing Hannibal back to him, Hannibal is cracking up and convinced the only way to stop his love lorne tantrums is to kill and eat will (out) and meanwhile Will has just murder-blackmailed one of Hannibal's quasi-relatives into following him, someone who is an expert marksmen, cause the last time Will tried this Kade had the snipers on the roof pulled and he's not making that mistake again.

I also think it's likely Chinyo has a change of heart and shoots Will.
posted by The Whelk at 6:46 AM on June 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Hannibal is enjoying the ride, Bedelia is observing and waiting for her chance to leave, Will is going to catch this amazing, glorious psychopath by indulging in every empathetic experience he can until he's like uh oh you going to jail and you'll be eating gruel but I will experience glorious lung dishes in your honour for as long as my mind deems it necessary.
posted by h00py at 6:49 AM on June 19, 2015

Well, Will spent more than one whole season trying to expose Hannibal as a killer and bring him down, only to learn that not only do people generally *not* care that Hannibal's a killer, they actually really admire him for it? And that his every attempt to incapacitate Hannibal led to the death, maiming and/or crippling of every single individual he was trying to protect?

So maybe he should go bizarro and do the opposite of whatever it was he was doing before that was not working, and also accept that the world is right and what Will needed all along was a) a mental makeover from Hannibal and b) to accept the true nature of himself as a killer?

EVERYTHING IS WILL'S FAULT. EVERYTHING.
posted by tel3path at 7:09 AM on June 19, 2015

Bedelia is probably trying to hand Hannibal off to Will and escape before she gets et.

I see we've de facto had the brain eating scene by now, so my hopes of VENGEANCE ALANA MOAR BRRAINNSSSSS are unlikely to be fulfilled, at least not in the expected form.
posted by tel3path at 7:19 AM on June 19, 2015

I would like to point out that I was TOTALLY RIGHT in last week's thread when I pondered if Hannibal ran home and told Bedelia that Will forgives him.
posted by Windigo at 7:21 AM on June 19, 2015 [11 favorites]

So, but people are complaining about Hannibal being OOC now because he'd never have been this vulgar and impulsive before?

Well, no, not when he had a reputation to uphold. Just wait till he's behind bars and see what comes out of his mouth then.
posted by tel3path at 7:21 AM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Imagine going home to your wife and telling her your ex forgives you and how much you long to go back to him.

Rude, Hannibal?
posted by tel3path at 7:22 AM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Those gold rimmed wine glasses just get bigger and bigger.....
posted by The Whelk at 7:27 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Just wait till he's behind bars and see what comes out of his mouth then.

I can't wait for this part. I'm remembering last year when he delivered that whispery "in the pantry" line and we were all like "ah, now THIS is the guy who made freaky mouth noises at Clarice in Silence of the Lambs"
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:35 AM on June 19, 2015 [9 favorites]

You're not the first person to notice that.
posted by tel3path at 7:35 AM on June 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

I keep on reading the "show Hannibal would never do this, show Hannibal would never do that" - uh, show Hanni is ultimately the same as book Hanni and movie Hanni.
posted by tel3path at 7:36 AM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I DO find it hard to imagine Mads saying the word 'rube' tbh
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:37 AM on June 19, 2015

Okay, show Hannibal had a much more (apparently) fluent grasp of American English slang. This Hannibal really obviously has English as a second language. So his choice of words might be different.
posted by tel3path at 7:39 AM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

The whole thing is, he gets caught. We know he gets caught. Of course he's going to overindulge in his glory of murder and butchering and consumption. Whimsy is what's going to get him, you can be sure of that, and not everything that happens before will be elegant.
posted by h00py at 7:39 AM on June 19, 2015

Oh, also, side note that has nothing to do with this episode whatsoever: now that I know Paul F Tompkins was on an episode of Pushing Daisies, I have been trying to imagine a good role for him on Hannibal. I think he might be great as one of the Tennessee prison guards from Silence.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:39 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I DO find it hard to imagine Mads saying the word 'rube' tbh

Now I can't stop imagining it. Thanks for that!
posted by h00py at 7:41 AM on June 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Whimsy is what's going to get him, you can be sure of that, and not everything that happens before that will be elegant.

Ah ok so. Hmm.

Chiyoh said, and Hannibal reinforced this in his convo with Bedelia, that Hannibal can't go back home without basically having a mental breakdown. And we know Hannibal winds up in BSHCI rather than a prison. What if Will somehow MAKES him go back there, and he absolutely fucking loses it?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:42 AM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

At this point I'm wondering about the remote possibility Hannibal might give himself up.

I realize it's in the realm of the not bloody likely, I just think that at this point it's been moved from the impossibility zone into the non-impossibility zone.
posted by tel3path at 7:42 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, like I said... fireflies glow to attract mates or prey...

So is Hannibal a mate, or is he prey?

Yes, I think, is the answer to that.
posted by tel3path at 7:44 AM on June 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

I've been wondering what their relationship will be like once he's locked up. Obviously in the books they don't really have one at all until the Tooth Fairy stuff, but also in the books they don't have a couple years of psychosexual murderangst in the background either, so anything could happen. What if instead of staying away, Will has a sort of compulsion to visit him, but hates himself for it?
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:45 AM on June 19, 2015

will: I could t kill you, you're too important to me, but now you're safe and everyone is safe from you and we can still chat!

Hannibal: Will do you know what dramatic irony is?
posted by The Whelk at 7:48 AM on June 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Oh on a different note, I really enjoyed the way they did the therapy session in the woods. Even though I'd seen the promo shot, it was just kind of... nice? Like brain Hannibal was being more honest and frank with Will than the real one ever was.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:48 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

I think it'll be the relationship that Hannibal had with Starling.
posted by Windigo at 7:49 AM on June 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

(I'm a little upset were most likely not going to see The Trial Of Hannibal Lecter, it doesn't make sense to focus on it but I always wanted to see the Public's reaction to ha ha you're all eating people meat and also the insane stuff he says on the stand to get into the hospital rather than jail.)
posted by The Whelk at 7:49 AM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

There'll be a time jump, for sure.
posted by h00py at 7:53 AM on June 19, 2015

Hannibal: Will do you know what dramatic irony is?

Oh you just know he'd arrive at that sentiment in a much much more roundabout way. "In Sophocles' Oedipus, it is said that that no man should be considered fortunate until he is dead. Do you feel fortunate, Will?" "UGH HANNIBAL YOU'RE SMART WE GET IT SHUT UP"
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:54 AM on June 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

Oh my god, Whelk, I want to see that so much.
posted by h00py at 7:54 AM on June 19, 2015

I know right, people would be throwing up in the courtroom
posted by The Whelk at 8:00 AM on June 19, 2015

There is a fan thing covering the trial. Basically shows people reacting like, well, Fannibals.
posted by tel3path at 8:05 AM on June 19, 2015

I know! But I want it for reeeeeeal
posted by The Whelk at 8:17 AM on June 19, 2015

The mothman seemed to me a double borrowing from Silence of the Lambs: it's visually similar to the angel tableau that Hannibal makes in the courthouse, and it's playing with the same "moths = metamorphosis = becoming" metaphor.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 8:17 AM on June 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Also, it's similar to the angel maker from season one, the first time Will confesses to Jack this job is making his crazy and he wants to stop ad Jack guilts him into continuing.
posted by The Whelk at 8:19 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, see, first Will was "unstable" and unfit for field work because he couldn't pull the trigger. Then he was "unstable" because he could.

The solution? A mental makeover from good ol' stable Hannibal!

Then season 2, in which the best thing for him was to admit he was a killer and let good ol' stable Hannibal take care of him!

Well, that worked great. Everyone certainly got their wish!
posted by tel3path at 8:23 AM on June 19, 2015

Haha wow:

Snails might not seem like a particularly romantic creature (unless served in butter at some mood-lit bistro in Paris), but in reality they’re nature’s Cupids. Certain snails reproduce using a “love dart,” a chitinous harpoon shot into the flesh of a potential mate as an act of courtship. [All together now: Awww!] Snail foreplay takes awhile, as you can imagine—up to six hours, according to the Wikipedia page for snail sex that I now have logged in my browser history—and Hannibal and Will too have been circling each other at a similar pace. Hannibal’s love dart took the form of a linoleum knife, but it marked Will as his just the same.

God I hope that was on purpose
posted by showbiz_liz at 8:52 AM on June 19, 2015 [11 favorites]

I've been wondering what their relationship will be like once he's locked up

PINING MURDER HUSBANDS
posted by poffin boffin at 9:12 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Todd VanDerWerff is pretty positive about the episode.
posted by sparkletone at 9:15 AM on June 19, 2015

The Star Crossed Lovers thing was getting a little stale in this episode imo. I get it, Will and Hannibal both want to consuuuuuuume each other, but they're also half pissed off at each other for how crazy-in-love they make each other feel.

This episode felt like "all sizzle and no steak" to me. Eh. But it WAS pretty. I loved all the shots of the castle. And Hugh Dancy looked more consumptive-yet-floppy-haired-and-hot than ever. He really fit in, in that milieu.

Chiyo was great, she was really spooky but I liked something about her. Maybe that she was gorgeous and a good shot. Pretty sexy. But Will is practically daring her to hate/betray him. Why does he have to show up and act all sketchy, refuse to answer questions, manipulate her into committing a murder, and then make her play the audience to a ~murder art~ reveal? WILL COME ON NOW. That's not how you make friends. (Except if you're Hannibal, but he doesn't count).

I think that Will is trying to lure Hannibal home by making offerings/sacrifices to him (that's what the Moth Man was imo). Like Hannibal is a god. Which, to be fair, is EXACTLY what is liable to actually bring Hannibal home again. But I think Hannibal will show up at ~ye olde family pile~, and he and Will are going to try to kill/eat each other but will end up loving/fucking each other instead. And since he's back home, Hannibal will also have to admit to his damage, like he said everyone does when they go home, which will make him feel vulnerable and human for once. The big vulnerabilit-izing will probably all happen post-coital, because Hannibal is a little cliche and teenager-y when it comes to romance. Then Big Daddy Jack will catch Will and Hannibal at it just as Hannibal has become (relatively) soft-hearted, and send Hannibal packing, off to prison, where he will go insane trying to become hardened again. Will will meanwhile be in Serious Trouble with Jack et al, but you know Will. He probably will consider that irrelevant, because he'll be so busy obsessing over this, that, or the other.
posted by rue72 at 11:38 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Here's more about Chiyoh's character (includes book spoilers.)
posted by homunculus at 11:54 AM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Oh, and I think that the moth/dragonfly thing that Will made was meant to be a symbol of potential and transformation. Potential and transformation are always lures for Hannibal. The moth was a way of reminding Hannibal of the (transformative) potential of their relationship imo, because Will knows that that's hard for Hannibal to resist.

Also, Will already threw the chum into the water with his "I forgive you." And Hannibal is going into a feeding frenzy over that chum. I mean, there's no way that Hannibal can get a little tantalizing morsel like Will's "I forgive you" and be satisfied. He's going to go after Will looking for more. So Will is going to keep giving him little drips and drabs of what he wants, to lead Hannibal along. Since they keep bringing up fairy tales; maybe this is a sort of trail of breadcrumbs?

This is what I like most about Will. He knows how to play the long game, and he's patient about it. Nobody "plays hard to get" better than him, even Bedelia.
posted by rue72 at 12:19 PM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

I love that we're getting Chiyoh and more Bedelia.

Chiyoh is hunting when we first see her. She brings to mind Artemis, the keen-glanced. She's in Hannibal's world but hasn't succumbed. She sees him clearly.

Bedelia is a therapist. Insight is her trade, words are her arrows (how did your sister taste) and she's wielding them to keep herself alive.

(Meanwhile there's Will, whose imagination -- his mind's eye -- is, per Jack, broken. Like the glass that would go into this week's tableau. )

If we're not getting more Freddie until the second half of the season, these two will satisfy me until then.
posted by rewil at 12:37 PM on June 19, 2015 [5 favorites]

Weekly use of opera report:

In the first episode Hannibal listened to an aria from the first act of Don Pasquale, "Sogno soave e casto," when Ernesto was giving up on being able to be with Norina. But now we've moved on to the third act and "Tornami a dir che m'ami" (video)

Turn to me and tell me you love me,
tell me that you are mine,
when you call me your beloved
life redoubles in me.
Your voice, so dear,
revives the oppressed heart:
safe while close to you,
I tremble when far from you.

...when Ernesto and Norina have been reunited. Though, to be fair, all is not yet well. Norina, Ernesto, and Maletesta are in the middle of a scheme to trick Don Pasquale into giving up Norina. Just after this duet Don Pasquale (who has married Norina) and Maletesta (who the Don believes is on his side) arrive to find Norina with someone else (the Don doesn't realize it was Ernesto) and Ernesto slips away. The Don yields his scolding/negotiating to Maletesta who deceptively arranges for Norina and Ernesto to be together.

So: the earlier aria set up Hannibal as Ernesto and Will as Norina. And we are seeing their revelry at being back together after thinking it impossible; Hannibal is thrilled that Will found him and found his heart/art murder. But it is very possible that their metaphorical Don Pasquale and Maletesta are about to intrude on their happy reunion.

I am expecting betrayal and false identities.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:02 PM on June 19, 2015 [8 favorites]

Also: I really loved the shot in the opening segment that went Bedelia, fireplace, Hannibal.

And oh wow was Bedelia amazing in this episode.

I would like to rewatch but this was the first great episode of season three for me.
posted by mountmccabe at 1:06 PM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

You know, Andy Dick's been having a lot of problems lately. I think that it's good that he's getting work again, even if it is just a single episode.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 1:55 PM on June 19, 2015

The mothman seemed to me a double borrowing from Silence of the Lambs: it's visually similar to the angel tableau that Hannibal makes in the courthouse, and it's playing with the same "moths = metamorphosis = becoming" metaphor.

I am really looking forward to meeting Jame Gumb. There have been so many call-aheads to him, and Ted Levine already made him seriously scary, but Fuller may just knock the sheer dreadful creepitude clean out of the park.

I totally agree with Bedelia's repeated point about keeping up appearances, but to be fair, Hannibal showed remarkable self-control in waiting as long as he did to, er, perforate Professor Pissypants, who has been asking for a good old-fashioned punch in the nose since Ep 01.

Also, it seems that Hannibal's backstory and relationship with Mischa ("what happened to you there?" "Nothing; I happened") is a tad different and more interesting than the frankly moronic hamfisted book version, thank god.

Finally, hair-washing is way, way more intimate than fucking.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:06 PM on June 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

Well, you know, I can pay someone to wash my hair and not feel like I'm burning my ethics to the ground. Just sayin'.
posted by tel3path at 2:12 PM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

WHEN DO I GET TO SEE RICHARD ARMITAGE EATING A PAINTING
posted by poffin boffin at 2:15 PM on June 19, 2015 [7 favorites]

what about MY needs
posted by poffin boffin at 2:15 PM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well, you know, I can pay someone to wash my hair and not feel like I'm burning my ethics to the ground. Just sayin'.

I'm not sure what ethics have to do with it either way, but when my stylist washes my hair, it's typically not with me nude in a tub entirely at the shampooer's mercy, having a quiet personal conversation while they lingeringly lather me up and massage my scalp for an extended time. And even at a hair salon as a business transaction, you're exposing your throat whereas it's possible (and in many cases, preferable) to have sex without any sort of physical or emotional vulnerability involved.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:23 PM on June 19, 2015

I mean my barber lets me sip free whiskey while he works on my hair but that's hardly the same.

I just ...wonder what the conversation leading up to that hair washing scene was. A I really do, like

"Hey my hair needs a wash and one feature of 15th century Florentine palaces are no shower heads."
posted by The Whelk at 2:29 PM on June 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

I'm pretty sure "Moth Man" is supposed to be "Firefly Man," hence the use of all the shiny glass and firefly wing shapes and such.


now that I know Paul F Tompkins was on an episode of Pushing Daisies, I have been trying to imagine a good role for him on Hannibal. I think he might be great as one of the Tennessee prison guards from Silence.


Paul F. Tompkins? No- he's clearly either the bunk criminal psychologist who gets put on the stand at the trial, or an opera critic who pans a performance Hannibal particularly enjoyed. Either way, he gets turned into...mm...let's say the components of a choucroute royale.
posted by TheWhiteSkull at 2:35 PM on June 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

Also: I really loved the shot in the opening segment that went Bedelia, fireplace, Hannibal.

Stealing an observation from joseph conrad is fully awesome here. That fireplace, white stone with a circular porthole either side: suggestive of a skull.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 2:49 PM on June 19, 2015 [3 favorites]

I'm not sure what ethics have to do with it either way, but when my stylist washes my hair, it's typically not with me nude in a tub entirely at the shampooer's mercy, having a quiet personal conversation while they lingeringly lather me up and massage my scalp for an extended time.

...really?

I'm...

going to have to check some yelp reviews.

i may be gone for some time
posted by tel3path at 3:02 PM on June 19, 2015 [4 favorites]

You know, people are talking about this being slow and all, but once again it's... in the first episode Hannibal killed a couple, assumed their identity with his new GF, took over a museum/castle in Florence, had a big dance scene where the crowd stands back in a circle to watch, wowed Florence with his mad Dante skillz, and met and killed a new potential murder boyfrand then designed the art he was going to make en route to the site of his new installation. Plus, reflected on his time with one of the last dudes to think himself Hannibal's equal.

I mean, for most people, that would be a big day. Hanni covered all that in 43 minutes.

Now, admittedly Will didn't do much last week except recover from a catastrophic tummy wound, work out his issues with the ghost of the girl he tried and failed to save, travel to Italy, get questioned by the cops, empath another murder, and forgive Hannibal in the catacombs. Sure he wasn't as productive as Hannibal, but who ever is?

It's like I said, they're excellent at making everything appear to move at a snail's pace (snannibal, geddit) while, at the same time, a lot is happening.
posted by tel3path at 4:07 PM on June 19, 2015 [11 favorites]

. . . I knew there was a reason why those big-city salons are so freaking expensive.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:49 PM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

Not to get to meta-fictional but since we know Hannibal has to end up in jail for the Red Dragon stuff to work, and Red Dragon Hannibal is really more uh ...direct and less elegant and more of a fucking monster* maybe we can look at the different takes on that scene when they have almost the same script and what Fuller will do different.

*Like I'm really excited for a Hannibal who doesn't have to put on affectations or civilized airs and is just a creepy monster cause that's how he gets status in the Baltimore state dungeons for the criminally fascinating .
posted by The Whelk at 11:02 PM on June 19, 2015 [2 favorites]

(Cause yes there is ha ha irony with Will talking to Hannibal in jail on a murder case cause that's what happened to Will but also Will was wrongfully accussed and Hanmibal has actually killed hundreds of people and ate them and should be in very close confinement )
posted by The Whelk at 11:06 PM on June 19, 2015

I hope that Hannibal ends up in that Dracula Castle dungeon first.
posted by rue72 at 11:21 PM on June 19, 2015 [1 favorite]

Hard to believe that Red Dragon Hannibal was only supposed to have killed like 9 people. That's chump change!
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:58 AM on June 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I love the sheer, exhilarating amorality of this show. So much media - especially from the United States, and especially television and specifically U.S. network television - is mired in what I can only describe as bourgeois sentimentality. Yet here, on U.S. network television is this masterful Sadeian fantasy where the worst triumph, the sinless are consumed, the upstanding don't stand a chance and no one is innocent. Magnificent.

Yet what could be more true to the hearts of the bourgeoisie than the dream of having enough refinement, enough of the trappings of the ancien regime, that one might be excused for one's grossest appetites? What is Hannibal Lecter but the very figure that bourgeois sentimentalism adores -- such wealth! such taste! such etiquette and poise! -- coupled to the egocentric desire to consume things and people that drives the bourgeoisie.

To replace morality with morale, ethics with an aesthetic: the very operations of sentimentalism, which it must disavow. It is the bourgeoisie, after all, who turned the Sadean into the stuff of high theory, the sort of thing you can acquire by going to the right sort of schools and turn into social capital by bringing it up at the right moment at a cocktail party. There is a reason that Hannibal's art belongs to the Old World, and that he is as much a copyist and a forger -- both in murder and in art (synonyms!) -- as anything else.

Hannibal punctures bourgeois sentimentalism in its argument that the aesthetic does not uplift, but rather extracts morality as its price. But bourgeois sentimentalism was itself always the aesthetics of mere rapacity.
posted by kewb at 4:05 AM on June 20, 2015 [8 favorites]

Not to get to meta-fictional but since we know Hannibal has to end up in jail for the Red Dragon stuff to work

Does he, though? Until this season, I presumed Hannibal wouldn't be captured until the end of the series, if at all. Red Dragon was published in 1980, when plot mechanics like personals placed in the Washington Post (from Dolarhyde to Hannibal and back again) were required for the story to work. When, practically speaking, Will and Hannibal needed to be in the same room to work together. Those rules don't really apply in 2015. I imagined early on we'd have everyone communicating online and (maybe) by burner phone, but see the actors together via the magic of the creative visualization that has been a part of the show all along.

It does seem like Hannibal's capture is on the horizon now, however (although the show has certainly faked us out before). Still, I imagine that an imprisoned Hannibal would largely be shown to us as he appears to himself within his memory palace; I don't think anyone really wants to see Hannibal in a dreary little cell, and it would be hard to spend too much time in that environment without retreading extremely familiar iconography from The Silence of the Lambs.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:45 AM on June 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Lol. I can't get over the idea that Will was BAD and WRONG and omg EVIL MASTERMIND for releasing a prisoner kept caged like an animal on Hannibal's word.

Of course, Chiyoh is nothing but a wronged innocent in this scenario! (She may be, though, especially since, given her apparent age, she might have been a child when Hannibal did a number on her mind.)

OTOH if he didn't want the guy to come running straight back, maybe he could've slipped him 50 euros for a hotel room or something. Maybe a clean pair of boxers while he was about it.

Imagine being that prisoner, getting to the edge of the woods, and then realizing maybe you might need a shave and feeling the dread of how your bad breath might come across in polite society.

I don't get the timelines here. No way Chiyoh is older than 40, though she obviously takes great care of her appearance, and doesn't go out in the sun 'cos there is none. If Chiyoh started working for Murasaki when she was 14 (really that's as young as you can possibly go in employment terms), that means Hannibal had to have been in Lithuania when he was 33.

ALTHOUGH maybe the reason he can't go back is because he already did go back - when he was 33.
posted by tel3path at 5:17 AM on June 20, 2015

I don't get the timelines here. No way Chiyoh is older than 40, though she obviously takes great care of her appearance, and doesn't go out in the sun 'cos there is none. If Chiyoh started working for Murasaki when she was 14 (really that's as young as you can possibly go in employment terms), that means Hannibal had to have been in Lithuania when he was 33.

We could also think of it a bit like the (deleted) plantation scenes in Apocalypse Now; Chiyo is portrayed as unnaturally youthful as a way to indicate to the viewer that the Lithuanian estate is a place of the past, a kind of concrete trace or literal memory palace. After all, we don't assume there's really a murder stag wandering around; maybe we're seeing what Chiyo is through Will
's eyes rather than what she appears to be?
posted by kewb at 5:55 AM on June 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

She's very very definitely stuck in the past. Believing something Hannibal said to her when she was young and impressionable, while - as Will pointed out - on some level knowing better all along.
posted by tel3path at 5:59 AM on June 20, 2015

So why is Hannibal saying he can never go home?
Is he fearing that he would just start stabbing and eating people left and right, influenced by his eaten sister's gravestone?

I have a bit of a hard time with Will's murder art. The previous murder art he did was a clear path to winning Hannibal's trust; what is it this time? Like, *oh this place is your kryptonite but you will not be able to stay away because I made firefly man*?

Also, Will tried to free dungeon man, right? He took him away and was like go go go, not knowing that the dungeon man would (how) end back up in the dungeon.

And so Will is like, *whoops dungeon man made some bad choices, well, nothing to do but make some murder art, sorry dungeon man*

I feel like I'm missing something.
posted by angrycat at 6:09 AM on June 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Hannibal already has an idea that Will may be going back to the Lecter Castle, and I think he has that conversation with Bedelia (hence her jabbing him about eating Mischa). Chiyo also says that there are places on the grounds Hannibal can't go, but I don't know that precludes Hannibal from popping over to see how she's doing (especially if he suspects Will being there).

Will tried to "free" dungeon man, but you have to remember that Will is a super powered profiler who's schtick is knowing how people think. He probably knew that beardo (also, that guy reminded me of the Mad Magazine gag with the torturers and the bearded prisoners hung up on chains) would try to exact his revenge on Chiyo, and that she would be forced to kill him (or she would just die, and Will would kill him later). This is exactly what Hannibal always does: he puts his people of interest in a position to kill, because it gives him satisfaction to 'elevate' them to his level. So, even apart from the murder art, this is another scene of Will turning more and more into Hannibal. As the audience we're left to wonder whether it's simply Will doing more profiling and getting into Lecter's head, or if Will is actually losing it.

I would imagine that everything that's happened so far are Will's machinations to draw Hannibal out of hiding and confront him, out of either a desire to capture him and take revenge for Abigail, or out of an increasing fascination and identification with Hannibal as a murder artist and lover. I would say that both motivations are currently at play in Will's head.
posted by codacorolla at 7:10 AM on June 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Will sent the prisoner to run through the woods at night without so much as a haircut and a packed lunch. In those circumstances, most of us would seek out the nearest place of relative safety we knew of - in the prisoner's case, his cell. It really wasn't in any way unforeseeable.

Having said that, I don't have a shitton of sympathy for Chiyoh here. The most sympathetic character is the prisoner, even if in the first instance he was guilty. I guess technically you could say he didn't have to attack Chiyoh, but if he had no real option but to return to his cell then he also likely thought he had no real option but to attack her.
posted by tel3path at 7:23 AM on June 20, 2015

Also: once the guy was dead, I don't much care that Will made art out of the body. That's not the part that bothers me. Waste not, want not after all.
posted by tel3path at 7:25 AM on June 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

fanfare: the aesthetics of mere rapacity.
posted by Bringer Tom at 8:26 AM on June 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

And so Will is like, *whoops dungeon man made some bad choices, well, nothing to do but make some murder art, sorry dungeon man*

I think Will set Chiyoh up for the kill when he released the prisoner in the same way that Hannibal set up Bedelia for the kill when he put that ice pick in the academic's head.

Way back in S1, Will talked about how when he got into Garrett Jacob Hobbes's head, it felt like they were doing the same things at the same time even though they were apart and even after GJH was dead. I think he and Hannibal are pretty much mirroring each other in the same way now.
posted by rue72 at 8:31 AM on June 20, 2015 [2 favorites]

Given this show's overall tone and how everything close to Hannibal himself gets weird and gothic I'm totally willing to believe that time just moves differently at Castle Dracula Von Lecter for whatever reason.
posted by The Whelk at 9:11 AM on June 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Someone on another board I read said that Will chasing off the prisoner looked like the opposite of Will trying to coax Winston in off the road - he's changed his attitudes about strays. I had thought that Will trying to shoo the prisoner off looked like somebody trying to chase off a stray cat that wants to stay and pee in your rosebushes, but didn't make the link.
posted by PussKillian at 9:50 AM on June 20, 2015 [5 favorites]

Something I'm wondering: Is Bella still alive? Jack's obvious sadness might imply she isn't, but it would make sense for her to have come with him to Italy, where they first met.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 12:03 PM on June 20, 2015

We don't know. Eight month time jump in her state is a big deal, but there's no way the show would have her die off screen. They love Gina Torres too much. They'd at least flash back to it at some point.
posted by sparkletone at 12:15 PM on June 20, 2015

Much like Sepinwall, What The Flick feels the show is pushing its luck, but they remain optimistic that where ever this is going will be worth it (note: does contain minor spoilers).
posted by sparkletone at 12:19 PM on June 20, 2015

tel3path: Having said that, I don't have a shitton of sympathy for Chiyoh here. The most sympathetic character is the prisoner, even if in the first instance he was guilty. I guess technically you could say he didn't have to attack Chiyoh, but if he had no real option but to return to his cell then he also likely thought he had no real option but to attack her.


I dunno, I think that this might be an example of Hannibal's sadism. He gave Chiyoh a choice: witness and participate in my murder of the man who raped and murdered my baby sister or administer the punishment you regard as fitting with you as his jailer. What to do? This man committed a foul and unforgivable act; taking away the only person with the possibility of keeping Hannibal on the straight and narrow. He brutalized an innocent, defenseless child. There must be consequences, severe ones. However, Chiyoh wanted to have a conscience clear of murder. She chooses the option of imprisoning him and thus accumulates years of responsibility as his jailer and his torturer.

She is a person borne of a culture that takes vows and personal honor seriously, and Hannibal knows this. She cannot commit murder nor can she simply let this man go. She must stay the course, no matter how long it takes. Hannibal's diabolical; even when you choose an seemingly more ethical course of action you will become tainted with his evil, and you will suffer.
posted by echolalia67 at 2:25 PM on June 20, 2015 [4 favorites]

Yeah, that's not good enough. Chiyoh herself said she treated the man worse than she would treat an animal.
posted by tel3path at 2:29 PM on June 20, 2015

I would also suggest that this prisoner represents another Ghost of Christmas Future for Past Will, just as Gideon once did.

After all, just as every effort was made to strip Gideon of his identity and convince him he was guilty of Hannibal's crimes, this other prisoner was given the life sentence that Will would have faced for Hannibal's crimes, as the "better" "more humane" option than the death penalty he "deserved".
posted by tel3path at 2:34 PM on June 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also: my Lithuanian is very scant but he seemed to be saying "talk to me, talk to me" over and over again. Project Future Will Graham ahead a little while, to the point where nobody is listening to him because they all know already that he's lying. The man in the cage didn't even have the advantages Will had.
posted by tel3path at 3:23 PM on June 20, 2015

And then Will turfs him out to fend for himself. Will was denied by every one of his allies on his release, this man doesn't even have anyone to disappoint him. Will ended up going back to his captor because he had no-one left; toyed with the idea of killing him, but didn't. The man in the cage did what Will didn't.
posted by tel3path at 3:40 PM on June 20, 2015

CLEOLINDA has decided to jump ahead and recap this season and she just posted Antipasto!
posted by The Whelk at 5:24 PM on June 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

However, Chiyoh wanted to have a conscience clear of murder. She chooses the option of imprisoning him and thus accumulates years of responsibility as his jailer and his torturer.

Her conscience will be in an interesting state if it turns out that the guy didn't do what Hannibal said he did.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:07 PM on June 20, 2015

Like brain Hannibal was being more honest and frank with Will than the real one ever was.

Well, brain Hannibal is really just Will, kind of like how ghost Abigail was really just Will too.

Honestly, the murder art at the end was anticlimactic for me; my big scare was Will talking to the Hannibal part of himself as an equal. It was like Will was facing Hannibal's beginnings because Will can't face his own; the "rooms" in Will's memory palace devoted to his earliest years are primal and ceaseless in a way that fishing in the river is not.

And yet, when he heard Chiyoh's gunshots, Will went to investigate, to see if someone needed help. He is still a good person, murder husband or no.
posted by infinitewindow at 8:15 PM on June 20, 2015 [3 favorites]

FelliniBlank :Her conscience will be in an interesting state if it turns out that the guy didn't do what Hannibal said he did.


I assume that Fuller's going to hew to the bigger points of the canon, even if he's going to tinker with the settings a bit. I mean, he's not going to be able to place the action in the rubble and chaos of post-WWII, Eastern European/Soviet Bloc country because it just doesn't work with the timeline of the show. He's going to have to find some reason besides post-war devastation, collective trauma, breakdown of cultural norms & prohibitions, and widespread food shortages to account for the "why" of killing and eating a young innocent child, but the basic backstory behind why Hannibal became a cannibal is going to remain the same, I imagine. Bad guy eats Mischa, Hannibal finds guy with the intent to do terrible things. Chiyoh I imagine is Will ver. 1; a character that Hannibal tries to tempt into doing terrible things. She thinks that she has made the better choice. Clearly she has not.
posted by echolalia67 at 10:23 PM on June 20, 2015 [1 favorite]

I frankly don't understand how Hannibal's family even still had an estate at any point in the historic timeline when any of this could have happened. I personally know Lithuanians whose grandparents were exiled to Siberia by Stalin for owning a patch of farmland the size of a postage stamp. I guess a well-timed switch from the aristocracy directly to a powerful Communist Party position could have allowed that level of privilege, but it's pretty out there. Then again, look how preternaturally jammy Hannibal always is - guess it runs in the family.
posted by tel3path at 7:45 AM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

tel3path that's an interesting observation. In Rising Hannibal's family loses the castle and it is repurposed as a boarding school cum re-education center where Hannibal is imprisoned for much of the rest of his childhood. But if Hannibal's childhood is moved up from WW2 to some more reasonably modern era, then the timing for that is all wrong; the castle would have been out of the family for a generation or two. I wonder if the show is going to explain this or just gloss it over as Planet Europe LOL.
posted by Bringer Tom at 1:19 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Also, the more I think about it the more I think Chiyoh might have begun her life on the estate and been Mischa's playmate, only becoming Murasaki's handmaiden later on. In that case, she might have been as susceptible to Hannibal's influence from her earliest years as Mischa was. Since the estate seems to be geographically isolated, and since Chiyoh has a secret to keep, it looks like she is as socially isolated as her prisoner. So, maybe the last significant person Chiyoh had contact with was Hannibal.

I could see her being taught the values that it's morally right to treat a prisoner inhumanely, too. Not that this necessarily excuses a whole lot since she must have media available to her and thus at least some exposure to varying points of view. Lithuanian TV has a good variety of channels. Heck they even have the joys of Russian Law & Order.
posted by tel3path at 1:22 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I've been thinking and thinking and the ONLY way I can possibly imagine the family retaining control of that estate is if the head of the household is SUCH a savvy political ducker and diver that he manages to maintain political power and privilege on both sides of the regime change.

It's also possible that he maintained control of the estate WHILE letting it be nominally or actually used for some state-run institutional purpose, made sure that control was kept in the family, and then took back full and overt ownership at some point after Lithuania gained independence in 1991.

There, see? I just made up the show's backstory for them. They don't even need to write it themselves.
posted by tel3path at 1:30 PM on June 21, 2015 [4 favorites]

That makes sense but I'd also buy that a mysterious fog descended for decades. castle? What castle?
posted by The Whelk at 1:50 PM on June 21, 2015 [8 favorites]

Will's endgame is probably that he intends Hannibal to eat him.
posted by tel3path at 3:26 PM on June 21, 2015

I've seen that floating around and now I'm imaging the worst possible "Well I'll die in such a way that Hannibal gets killed and then this whole thing will finally end." Situation where Alana and the Revengers screws it up by assuming Will wanted to survive.

I mean it would be horrible and miserable and based entirely on *seemingly* good intentions gone sour so it would fit right in.
posted by The Whelk at 3:43 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Or Mason dicks it up royally, either way
posted by The Whelk at 3:47 PM on June 21, 2015

ALANA AND THE AVENGERS

THE ALANAVENGERS

VERGER AND THE ALANAVENGERS

THE ALANAVERGERVENGERS

THE VERGERLANAVENGERS
posted by tel3path at 4:01 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Will's endgame is probably that he intends Hannibal to eat him.

Nah.

This episode is not Will seeking Hannibal out to sacrifice himself for forgiveness's sake, it's Will comin back into himself by *surpassing* Hannibal. Where Hannibal cannot go, Will can; what Hannibal leaves eternally deferred, Will completes; what Hannibal cannot admit -- indeed, what seems to have been his only(?) overt lie -- Will ostentatiously memorializes in precisely the way Hannibal might have wished, but could not.

We were told in seasons 1 and 2 that Hannibal got inside Will's head and changed things; Will has now gotten inside Hannibal's palace and changed things.

Or, put another way: If Hannibal concludes that the only way to forgive Will Graham, then what can this Will Graham mean to do by way of forgiving Hannibal? If, as Will's "adult from nymph" corpse-display indicates, Hannibal became, then what is Will becoming?

Hannibal did far too good a job with Will Graham. That's not going to end with Will attempting suicide-by-proxy; if anything, it's Hannibal who seems self-destructive here. If he made Will Graham into an extension of hismelf, who is it he wishes to consume? If he roots for Mephistopholes and has contempt for Faust, it is worth recalling that the name Mephostopholes means "spreader of lies," and that both Marlowe's and Goethe's versions are ultimately miserable at their eternal severance from the divine:

Why this is Hell, nor am I out of it,
Think'st thou that I, whoisaw the face of God,
And tasted the eternal joys of heaven,
Am not tormented with ten thousand hells
In being deprived of everlasting bliss?
-- Marlowe, Doctor Faustus, III.76-8

I have mismanaged in disgraceful fashion;
Great outlay shamefully I've thrown away.
A vulgar lust, an absurd, lovesick passion,
Led the well-seasoned Devil far astray.
Since with this childish, silly folderol
I -- shrewd and would-be wise -- obsessed me,
In very truth the folly is not small
That in conclusion has possessed me.
-- Goethe, Faust: The Second Part, V.11836-40

posted by kewb at 5:27 PM on June 21, 2015 [7 favorites]

Wow, the suggestion that they could do Red Dragon without Hannibal in jail because of the interwebs ... wow. That would actually work and would be a total canonfuck.
posted by Bringer Tom at 6:25 PM on June 21, 2015

I literally had a Keanu whoa moment at the idea of it
posted by The Whelk at 6:33 PM on June 21, 2015

Although it might not be as interesting to watch the Murderous Vampire Cannibal Wizard ....skyping


Oooo he's using a truly dark and masterful ancient BBS a priceless antique of a more sophicated age
posted by The Whelk at 6:35 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

Where did that idea come from? Did I miss a comment somewhere or was it floated on that podcast thing Fuller was just on? (I won't get to listen to it till later.)

I would laugh my ass off at a scene where some Apple Store employee has to show Hannibal how to FaceTime on his iPad for the first time.
posted by sparkletone at 6:46 PM on June 21, 2015 [1 favorite]

Well I did the video thing myself. I don't think my mineral collection is up to Hannibal standards but I'm sure he could take it to the right level. (Bonus: Toward the end of that video I actually talk about Hannibal.)
posted by Bringer Tom at 7:02 PM on June 21, 2015

Jack: Four victims, Will... All from different parts of the country, all with one thing in common.
Will: Oh, and what's that Jack?
Jack: You know Will, do you want me to say it?
Will: They were all on the same sub-Reddit that I've been using to talk to Hannibal, all of them downvoted his posts... Do you want me to keep going Jack?
Jack: ...
Will: I've set a demon loose on the Internet, Jack. But let's not forget that you asked me to come back! You asked me to find him again!
[this is taking place in a clearing amid falling leaves, but the leaves are fingers]
posted by codacorolla at 8:03 PM on June 21, 2015 [11 favorites]

Buffy taught us all how cool Internet demons can be.
posted by sparkletone at 9:56 PM on June 21, 2015 [3 favorites]

So I'm still reading speculation that nobody has evidence against Hannibal, still.

It goes like this:

There was an arrest warrant out on Jack, Jack goes to Hannibal's house, attacks him. That means Hannibal had every right to try to kill him.

Next, Alana comes in, makes an anodyne report about "shots fired or whatever, idek", goes into the house and pulls a gun on Hannibal. However, this is OK because she did so on seeing him covered in blood and trying to batter down the pantry door, which Hannibal himself confirmed Jack was behind, right?

Maybe not. Castle doctrine says if Jack's in his house, Hannibal's allowed to kill him and the fact he retreated into the pantry doesn't change that (?) Also they must have evidence of criminal conspiracy by Alana, from the fact that she phoned Will to tell him about his arrest warrant, and Will then phoned Hannibal to tell him the same. Ergo, I suppose they could put Alana in the wrong over this one, too.

And then Will, who also had a warrant out for his arrest, went into the house with HIS gun, and Hannibal was then also within his rights to knife him too.

On the grounds that Will was demonstrably already conspiring with Hannibal all this time, cuz look, he phoned him didn't he? Therefore he must have been conspiring to fake Abigail's death and hide her. Then Will tries to kill Abigail and, in a desperate and failed attempt to save her, Hannibal guts Will, then flees the country where the lunatic FBI are staging bloodbath conspiracies in their heinous and illegal attempts to frame the poor guy.

What's that, you say? Alana testifies that Abigail pushed her out the window? Yeah because you were firing a gun at Hannibal in his own home! Castle doctrine, man.

In characteristic fashion, Hannibal has of course removed every atom of evidence from his house, including the basement, even though it's physically impossible to do that. Because Hannibal is magic and can totally do physically impossible things, including bending his own knees backwards, and you shouldn't be watching this show if you can't accept that.

Why has Kade Purnell not arrested Will, Jack and Alana already, you ask? Well, Kade tried to, she went into Will's hospital room and tried to handcuff him while still unconscious, but it turned out he was conscious and delivered a credible threat to kill her and her whole family by telekinesis if she didn't fuck off and stop being such an irritant. So now Kade just slinks around in the background somewhere looking baleful but doesn't do anything except fire Jack.
posted by tel3path at 5:09 AM on June 22, 2015

I keep reloading that prop auction page and going "No it would be weird to have Hannibal's psych notes framed in my house."
posted by The Whelk at 6:49 AM on June 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

So I'm still reading speculation that nobody has evidence against Hannibal, still.

I super duper don't buy that.

Castle doctrine says if Jack's in his house, Hannibal's allowed to kill him

You're allowed to use lethal force to protect yourself from immediate mortal danger, not batter down a door to knife the fuck out of a subdued and dying person without calling for an ambulance!
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:56 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

WELL, IF YOU DON'T KNOW HE'S A CANNIBAL, LIKE KADE DOESN'T, AND IF YOU HAVEN'T SEEN ANY EVIDENCE, LIKE KADE HASN'T...

You're allowed to use lethal force to protect yourself from immediate mortal danger, not batter down a door to knife the fuck out of a subdued and dying person without calling for an ambulance!

Spoilsports. No wonder there's a brain drain!
posted by tel3path at 7:39 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

The big problem with the whole "Hannibal claims self defense" idea is Abigail -- both her presence in the house when she was supposedly dead and the fact that only Hannibal could have slashed her throat from behind with what forensic examination the wounds would show is the same knife used top disembowel Will. And given that Jack, Alana, and Will all survived, you'd have three witnesses testifying consistently with one another regarding what happened in a manner consistent with their wounds and with Abigail's.
posted by kewb at 10:01 AM on June 22, 2015

Plus the fact that Abigail was supposed to have been killed by Frederick "totally the Chesapeake Ripper" Chilton
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:03 AM on June 22, 2015

PPS, what is poor Miriam going to have to say about all this? (Even if they can't get the actress back on the show, I'll feel a little cheated if they don't at least mention her at some point this season...)
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:08 AM on June 22, 2015

No, the object of the game is to accuse these people of the most stuff in the most unreasonable way possible. That's how it works, right?

The big problem with the whole "Hannibal claims self defense" idea is Abigail -- both her presence in the house when she was supposedly dead

Murder Family Criminal Conspiracy To Run Off To Europe With Faux-Dead Murder Daughter! It was the perfect conspiracy cos nobody would suspect Graham of framing himself! An innocent psychiatrist fell under Graham's psychopathic hypnotic thrall, convinced that it was all for the greater good!

and the fact that only Hannibal could have slashed her throat from behind with what forensic examination the wounds would show is the same knife used top disembowel Will.

Hannibal was only defending himself against the demonstrably vicious Abigail. And Will. See above.

And given that Jack, Alana, and Will all survived, you'd have three witnesses

Two of whom were under arrest and the third of whom was conspiring to help them resist arrest!

testifying consistently with one another

Further evidence of conspiracy!
posted by tel3path at 10:12 AM on June 22, 2015

Quoth Maryland case law on the matter: "It is also essential that killing is necessary to prevent the commission of the felony in question. If other methods could prevent its commission, a homicide is not justified; all other means of preventing the crime must first be exhausted."

Slashing an unarmed young woman's throat from behind with no sign of a struggle beforehand wouldn't even begin to pass muster. Also, Chilton being Will's dupe doesn't work with either the timeline of the Ripper murders or with the timeline of Will Graham's involvement with Hannibal Lecter and Abigail Hobbs.

That said, I wouldn't put it past the writers these days. I'm long past the point of watching the show for its plot; it's the visuals and the hypnotic performances of Mikkelson and Anderson keeping me going. (Hugh Dancy is doing good work with the material he's got, but the material is so repetitive and emotionally one-note that there's not much if interest to me there.)
posted by kewb at 10:23 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

tel3path I can't tell how serious you are about all this and somehow I sort of feel like you've drugged me and asked me to draw a clock
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:25 AM on June 22, 2015 [9 favorites]

I'm being silly, in case that wasn't clear.

However, I'm not sure how much sillier you can get than Purnell's idea that Will conspired with his neurologist to keep his diagnosis secret so he'd have an insanity defense while he continued to commit murder, then murdered the neurologist to make sure that insanity defense was extra super sekrit.
posted by tel3path at 10:28 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Eh, considering some of the convoluted shit the actual Ripper has pulled, that plan would have been downright simplistic.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:31 AM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

I wouldn't want certain people to hear me say this, but Will's perpetual grumpy face is getting really one-note at this point.

CHEER UP MR. GRUMPYPANTS.

At least he's taking an interest in other stuff like hobbies now.

I'm not going to complain about the slow pace and stuff not happening and etc. because that's more illusion than reality right now. Combine that with all the anticipation of the Hannidelia Sitcom with Bedelia getting tired of Hannibal's obsession - and all that happening exactly the way we expected it - I do kind of feel like there've been no surprises.

Nothing seems to be emotionally at stake either. Because now Abigail's dead, Will gives zero fucks about anything. Of course Hanni is pining, but that's his own fault so what does he want us to say.

There has been some fan glee about FINALLY HANNIGRAM IS CANON but it's been that since Hassun, when Hannibal used the word "love". At this point it's so canonically canon I wouldn't be surprised to see Hannigram going at it onscreen, Standards and Practices be damned.

I get that we needed some episodes to process the aftermath of the Red Wedding but they really need to pick up the pace next week
posted by tel3path at 10:40 AM on June 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

I do kind of feel like there've been no surprises.

I kind of agree, but to be fair, this may be because we all spend way too much time thinking about it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:51 AM on June 22, 2015

I only think about it consciously when I'm awake.
posted by tel3path at 10:53 AM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Look, it's already Monday and I have not made a single Tumblr photoset from Thursday's episode yet so I am practically a normal non-obsessed person now. Or, you know, I am slowly dying inside from how badly I want to make my weekly photoset but just have not been able to make the time yet. One of those two things.
posted by Stacey at 10:54 AM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

I'm not going to complain about the slow pace and stuff not happening and etc. because that's more illusion than reality right now.

It's not "nothing happening," it's "nothing especially compelling happening." The real meat, pun intended, is what's going on with Hannibal and Bedelia. "Antipasto" was great, but the Will-focused episodes have been a bit of a chore so far. Will needs characters other than Hannibal to play off of, for one thing, or his dialogue quickly devolves into bad poetry. Pair him with the comparatively wooden, sedate Chiyo and he starts to sound like a college sophomore who's just discovered The Sorrows of Young Werther and the poetry of Stephen Crane. (At least Hannibal was reading Faust, and he identifies his identification with its devil character as adolescent.)

We need a few more tones in the mix as in the previous seasons, because otherwise Will and his visions start to feel like spectacular frivolities treated as if they were DEEP and MEANINGFUL. Nothing is less interesting than hearing someone go on and on about their ex.
posted by kewb at 11:28 AM on June 22, 2015 [8 favorites]

Especially when their ex is a shitheel and they just can't get over it.
posted by kewb at 11:32 AM on June 22, 2015

This is the very definition of Wangst, really.

Yes, I know your ex induced seizures, exploited your life-threatening illness, deliberately misused his medical authority to gaslight you, blackmailed mutilated and sequestered the girl you were trying to protect, framed you for five murders, took away your livelihood, murdered the one friend you had in the world and displayed her in order to mock you, threatened the girl you like then slept with her and made sure you knew about it, manipulated your friend into sexually assaulting you in order to get pregnant with a nonetheless much-wanted baby, arranged for that friend to be violently assaulted so as to lose the baby, injured your dog, set you up to kill one of his patients, sold gossip about you to a tabloid journalist, broke into your house and manipulated another of his patients to mutilate himself and feed his own flesh to your dogs while you watched, fed you human flesh routinely over a period of many months, stabbed your boss, forced the girl you were trying to protect to be an accessory to murder for many months while holding her sequestered, held your colleague prisoner for two years during which time he amputated her limb and carried out medical torture experiments on her and tampered with her memory such that she misidentified her captor to the authorities, forced the girl you were trying to protect to defenestrate the girl you like, disembowelled you, and then slit the throat of said girl while forcing you to watch.

BUT IS THAT ANY REASON TO STILL BE WHINING ABOUT IT EIGHT MONTHS LATER? Come on dude, try to see the funny side.

I'm going to give the standard MeFi answer here, which is: therapy.
posted by tel3path at 1:45 PM on June 22, 2015 [9 favorites]

It's okay Will's just trying some art therapy right now.
posted by The Whelk at 1:48 PM on June 22, 2015 [5 favorites]

I'm going to give the standard MeFi answer here, which is: therapy.

Unfortunately, nobody on the face of god's green earth has better reason than Will Graham to be wary of therapy
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:48 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Yeah, that's what he said back in Amuse-Bouche. And as Jack pointed out: it won't work because he won't let it. I think you'll find Hannibal would back him up on that.
posted by tel3path at 1:50 PM on June 22, 2015

Actually, a sincere suggestion to Season 3 Will that he seek therapy might just be one of the few things that could still make him laugh. (And laugh and laugh and laugh)
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:51 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

NBC cancels Hannibal

Which I think gives them plenty of time to find a new home.
posted by crossoverman at 1:57 PM on June 22, 2015

of course it's the day the huge piece in the New Yorker comes out.
posted by The Whelk at 1:59 PM on June 22, 2015

:(

Previous "maybe it will be cancelled" articles made mention of the whole "intentional co-funding, interest from other networks, blah dee blah" thing, and this one didn't. Wonder why?
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:01 PM on June 22, 2015

He said "a hungry cannibal can always dine again" but that's it?

Do you think they're going to have two different edits for the ending according to if the last episode is a series finale or not?

i just

noooooooo
posted by tel3path at 2:05 PM on June 22, 2015

I am absolutely gutted ... metaphorically speaking.
posted by echolalia67 at 2:09 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Remember back in season one when we joked about what fans might send in if it got cancelled? Keep an ear out I guess
posted by The Whelk at 2:11 PM on June 22, 2015 [6 favorites]

screw it, I'm bidding on that damn print. I need a little lecter in the living room
posted by The Whelk at 2:20 PM on June 22, 2015

DeLaurentiis Co is "exploring other options for future seasons"
posted by tel3path at 2:25 PM on June 22, 2015

Oh geez, no no no
posted by PussKillian at 2:27 PM on June 22, 2015

Nooooooo! What ever happened to all the talk about European financing, moving it to cable/netflix/whatever.... I hope we hear more about that soon. Hannibal is the best thing on TV by far right now in my book, and I'm super disappointed about this (though honestly not particularly surprised). I almost wish that if they were just going to kill the series altogether, they'd just ended it after last year's season finale, with Hannibal getting away with everything and all the good guys dead or dying.

On preview: DeLaurentiis Co is "exploring other options for future seasons"

Yay!
posted by dialetheia at 2:28 PM on June 22, 2015

I REFUSE TO TALK ABOUT OR ACKNOWLEDGE ANY OF THIS JUST YET. NO.

Jesus fuck. It's one thing to do this once it's aired and so on but it's so fucking terrible to do it just as the season's revving up. "Fuck these ten other episodes." -- NBC.

NO.
posted by sparkletone at 2:28 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Everyone head over to Twitter STAT and get trending.
posted by tel3path at 2:29 PM on June 22, 2015

I REFUSE TO TALK ABOUT OR ACKNOWLEDGE ANY OF THIS. NO.

Wow, I'm really looking forward to wearing my cobalt blue wrap dress for the premieres of seasons 4, 5 and 6!!! Anybody else making menu plans this far ahead?
posted by tel3path at 2:30 PM on June 22, 2015

Hannibal gave NBC a rare gift. But they didn't want it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:31 PM on June 22, 2015 [11 favorites]

I AM UPSET
posted by poffin boffin at 2:33 PM on June 22, 2015

Did I post this article explaining the Gaumont cofunding thing before? Oh well here it is again.

Founded in 1895, Gaumont is the oldest movie studio in the world, with half-year revenues in 2013 topping $170 million (up from $108 million in the first half of 2012) [...] Back in 2011, GIT entered the U.S. television market with a bang, scoring a straight-to-series order on NBC for Hannibal [...]

GIT's television model -- producing their shows and bypassing the pilot process -- turns the traditional system on its head. The financing for Gaumont shows is complicated, usually involving several broadcasters across Europe in addition to the U.S. network [...]

"While the U.S. studio tends to have one partner -- the U.S. broadcaster -- we spread the risk across various partners around the world. We combine a low U.S. license fee with an international prebuy and international tax incentives. That's why we have been so successful and have had our first two series renewed. Because the financial risk is spread over five to 10 companies. There's not the same huge risk for a single channel to renew or not to renew."

tl;dr no need to panic yet. necessarily.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:33 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

How... rude.

If Netflix/Amazon/somebody else pick this up they will have a customer for life in me. But I don't expect it. Dammit.
posted by Justinian at 2:38 PM on June 22, 2015

Here is a recent example of an internationally co-funded show that was dropped by NBC and is still being produced and aired.
posted by showbiz_liz at 2:39 PM on June 22, 2015

Part of me knows all that and knows the show is a hit in other markets but I think what's messing me up the worst is Bryan was literally on a live-recorded podcast last night cheerfully answering fan questions when he had to know this was coming. He's a (deeply fucked up) saint obviously but like. NO. NOT OKAY. NO COMFORT RIGHT NOW.
posted by sparkletone at 2:56 PM on June 22, 2015

You would deny me my show?

Not your show, never your show...

Well , my place on a major network network then

(Cut)
posted by The Whelk at 2:56 PM on June 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

BUT IS THAT ANY REASON TO STILL BE WHINING ABOUT IT EIGHT MONTHS LATER? Come on dude, try to see the funny side.

My problem isn't that Will is upset. My problem is that there's still a part of him that still wants to hang out with the person who did all of those things. So yes, therapy.

As to the cancellation, well, shit, if Community could come back surely a show NBC isn't even paying to produce will rise again. But I am afraid this is pretty much the end of any slim hope of getting the Silence rights.
posted by kewb at 2:58 PM on June 22, 2015

A leading commentator thinks that because BF was talking about the show in the past tense yesterday, that he doesn't think it will be picked up.

I mean, is all this optimism futile?

shit, I'LL play Flarice Karling if I have to. She can be mute and I'll do the whole thing as a nonspeaking part to save money.
posted by tel3path at 3:03 PM on June 22, 2015

A leading commentator thinks that because BF was talking about the show in the past tense yesterday, that he doesn't think it will be picked up.

I mean, I haven't listened to the interview in question, but if he was discussing shooting for season three then of course he'd be talking in past tense...
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:08 PM on June 22, 2015

Also, this
posted by showbiz_liz at 3:09 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Hannibal gave NBC a rare gift. But they didn't want it.

Their teacup is shattered.
posted by crossoverman at 3:10 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yes, he talked about S3 in the past tense, quite reasonably. He also talked about future stuff in pretty much exactly the same way he ever has. There was no hint of this even in retrospect. Like seriously, what's shocking is how little it showed.

JANICE POON AND THE WRITERS AND AARON ABRAMS BEING DELIGHTFUL AND GRACIOUS ON TWITTER RIGHT NOW IS GREAT BUT NOT HELPING MY NOT OKAYNESS. YOU CANT LEAVE US.
posted by sparkletone at 3:14 PM on June 22, 2015

Welp. At least one thing working in its favor for finding another home is that it's lasted this long partly by being very cheap to produce. Bragging rights for saving a critically acclaimed show with a cult following are seldom so cheap.
posted by Bringer Tom at 3:17 PM on June 22, 2015

Cool. Just going to accept that a show that's only made me tear up the once is just gonna be gross sobbing from viewer discretion warning to credits for the next two months....
posted by sparkletone at 3:18 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Imagine a Hannibal without network FCC rules...
posted by The Whelk at 3:23 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Weirdly, I don't want to? I liked that there was at least a theoretical constraint there that made them make interesting choices to get away with what they've done. You can look no further than how Mason's finest hour last season was filmed to see what I mean.
posted by sparkletone at 3:25 PM on June 22, 2015 [10 favorites]

Imagine a Hannibal without network FCC rules...

Well, Netflix isn't a free-for-all. I don't know about Amazon or Hulu. I doubt it's getting picked up by premium cable. Maybe Showtime?
posted by crossoverman at 3:25 PM on June 22, 2015

Imagine a Hannibal without network FCC rules...

I actually don't know if I could watch that. I mean, I love this show, but it already pushes me pretty hard on my don't-wanna-watch-human-cruelty buttons.

That's one reason I was so sad I heard the news today-- Hannibal has huge entertainment value for me but I find it hard to rewatch because I know what's coming and how horrible it is. The surprise element seems to counteract some of the "oh god why is this happening", but of course the surprise is gone on reviewings. So basically what I'm saying is I need a fresh supply of Hannibal episodes indefinitely and forever, thanks.
posted by WidgetAlley at 3:26 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

What I am seeing in my mind palace right now is this bringing Bryan Fuller/de Laurentiis Co and MGM together such that the show can use Clarice Starling, etc.
posted by mountmccabe at 3:31 PM on June 22, 2015

Maybe Showtime?


Penny Dreadful/Hannibal Back To Back Bucket a of Blood feature!

Yeah I do like how the constraints help them build a visual symbolism and style -- although it doesn't see, like it stops from doing anything so much as informing what they do.

six seasons and a sex scene!
posted by The Whelk at 3:32 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I think that for any streamer looking for a prestige show that draws viewers especially for that program, you couldn't do much better than Hannibal.
posted by codacorolla at 3:33 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I was actually ready emotionally and otherwise to say goodbye to Community after S3 and gas leak season aside haven't hated what's come since, but goddammit, NOW IS NOT THE TIME FOR HANNIBAL TO END.
posted by sparkletone at 3:36 PM on June 22, 2015

If Hannibal is cheap to produce, then Showtime's interested.
posted by infinitewindow at 3:50 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

six seasons and a sex scene!

I mean, I'm sure they could top it, but I think we already got that last part and then some. Five times over, you might say.
posted by sparkletone at 4:24 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

That's not quiiiiiiitte what he meannnnnnttt
posted by tel3path at 4:30 PM on June 22, 2015

the show is too good for NBC, honestly
posted by angrycat at 4:33 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

That's not quiiiiiiitte what he meannnnnnttt

Honestly, as a firm believer in Mr. Whelk's assertion that murder and sex on this show are reversed, we get a "sex" scene basically every meal.

... Except maybe the one where Hannibal spikes the dinner guest and not the punch. NOT A GOOD THREEWAY, HANNI. THAT OTHER TIME TOO. YOU CAN DO BETTER. WHEN PEOPLE SAY THEY ENJOY BUSTINESS, THEY DON'T MEAN ARISTOTLE TO THE HEAD.
posted by sparkletone at 4:37 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Only NBC could cancel the best show they produce... how is this network still in business?
posted by some loser at 4:37 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Only NBC could cancel the best show they produce... how is this network still in business?

Sportsball and a teeny number of other things, as far as I know. And I mean. On that point. Advertisers care about money, not art. So. This isn't illogical exactly (ratings this season have been down even by the show's already limited standards), and it's a miracle we got this far. Farther than any past Fuller-created show! But gosh dang it hurts so bad.
posted by sparkletone at 4:41 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Executive at NBC must be the easiest job on the planet. You don't even need to be sentient to get a paycheque.
posted by some loser at 4:45 PM on June 22, 2015

man, I'm broke so I won't, but in my mourning state I'm tempted to follow the lead of The Whelk and start bidding on props. A framed sketch of that freaking clock would be super cool.
posted by angrycat at 4:51 PM on June 22, 2015 [4 favorites]

Honestly, NBC let the show stick around with poor ratings way longer than they had to. I assume they were banking on some awards to bring more recognition and up the ratings this season. When that didn't happen, they cut it loose early enough to shop for a new home if possible.

No idea how well they promoted it, since I don't really watch tv as it airs like ever, but I can't really blame NBC. They gave it several chances and they clearly think it's a good show. It was just a bad fit.
posted by showbiz_liz at 4:54 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

(They promoted it terribly by all accounts but that's not abnormal for them, and the rest of what you say is spot on.)
posted by sparkletone at 5:09 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

If the show has to leave us, it has to leave us. Better that it leave us at the end of Season 3 than become something like Arrested Development Season 4 on Netflix, or worse, the Lecterverse analog of Ren & Stimpy "Adult Party Cartoon."
posted by infinitewindow at 5:22 PM on June 22, 2015

I just can't fathom what else in the same time slot in the friggin SUMMER season would be getting more views, but then I remember AMERICA, and it all kinda makes sense. Pawn stars is more in line with what the general american viewer has the mindspace for I guess, can't blame em for playing to their audience. still a shame tho.

Yes, i'm bitter.
posted by some loser at 5:24 PM on June 22, 2015

I need to know what kind of crazy Fuller has cooked up for season four. And Schmarlice Schmarling.
posted by crossoverman at 5:32 PM on June 22, 2015

Well, Netflix isn't a free-for-all.

Well, they have the extended director's cut of von Trier's Nymphomaniac, so it's pretty damn close to a free-for-all.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:41 PM on June 22, 2015

oh shit if it moves to netflix are we all going to be watching season 4 in one sitting
posted by neuromodulator at 5:59 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

oh shit if it moves to netflix are we all going to be watching season 4 in one sitting

OMG YES.
posted by crossoverman at 6:20 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

Oh Fuller you absolute bastard
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:24 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

If Hannibal goes to Netflix, instead of binge-watching, can we call it thirteen course degustation watching?
posted by crossoverman at 6:30 PM on June 22, 2015 [2 favorites]

I will probably call it "having a nervous breakdown"
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:31 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

Yeah, I think Hannibal needs to be savoured.

As for Fuller's tease that Hannibal/Will's relationship will be explored more deeply next season than ever before:
- Will gets put in the next cell, he's the remixed "multiple Miggs"
- Will breaks Hannibal out of prison, Schmarice Schmarling becomes has to hunt them down to get help with the pesky Buffalo Jill case
posted by crossoverman at 7:06 PM on June 22, 2015

Welp the New Yorker review is fantastic anyway
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:14 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

- Will gets put in the next cell, he's the remixed "multiple Miggs"

I had actually been wondering about this, only I find it hard to believe that anyone would stick those two in adjacent cells, even to punish them.

- Will breaks Hannibal out of prison, Schmarice Schmarling becomes has to hunt them down to get help with the pesky Buffalo Jill case

Also, as I near the end of Hannibal the book, it becomes ever clearer that Will IS basically Schmarice Schmarling
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:17 PM on June 22, 2015 [3 favorites]

If the show ends with Hannibal and Will going off to South America together, I'm okay with that.
posted by crossoverman at 7:29 PM on June 22, 2015

Oh Fuller you absolute bastard

No. NO. This is not him being a son of a bitch. He totally is. Gleefully so, and generally we love him for it but no.

That is a (mostly) garbage site milking views out of nothing. A real thing (and a sign the show is truly dead) would be Bryan actually revealing that "radical plan" for S4 that he's talked about off the record.

This is just a cheap grab at page views. Fuck off. Not today.
posted by sparkletone at 7:35 PM on June 22, 2015

On the other hand, it would make sense if Fuller started talking up some of what season four would have in store - to keep viewers excited and he can point Netflix or Amazon to all the excitement. "See! They NEED season four!"
posted by crossoverman at 7:57 PM on June 22, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yeah, I get the feeling he's trying extra hard to engage Hannigram fans today ([vaguely spoilerish? Bryan Fuller tweets] here, here).
posted by dialetheia at 8:04 PM on June 22, 2015

Behold the priorities of Facebook users
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:47 PM on June 22, 2015

Last night I saw some people were putting together a campaign to write or call Netflix and suggest they pick up the show. Seems like it's picking up steam (not my image, though I'm going to try later)
posted by showbiz_liz at 5:01 AM on June 23, 2015

Here's a post with links to contact Netflix, Hulu, and Amazon about picking up Hannibal. I did all three in less than five minutes.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:54 AM on June 23, 2015

... Except maybe the one where Hannibal spikes the dinner guest and not the punch.

I JUST got this visual pun
posted by The Whelk at 7:17 AM on June 23, 2015

I binged the first season and half of the second; that was a beautiful mistake. I've been savouring every one since. I can't tell you how much I'm hoping the series gets picked up by someone else. I want to see Bryan Fuller finish something, damnit, and this is too glorious to go to waste.
posted by h00py at 7:17 AM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

I literally phoned Netflix in the USA and asked them to pick up Hannibal. They seem pretty amenable to hearing that kind of feedback. Call took less than 2 minutes.

Of course if Netflix USA picks it up and we can't watch it in the UK, I'll be wailing and gnashing my teeth. Probably TunnelBear won't work if your sign-in account is based in the UK. But that's a problem for another day.
posted by tel3path at 9:12 AM on June 23, 2015

Not to be a defeatist, but if the show DOES end with this season, it is effectively the end of book Will's story, and a pretty sensible place to wrap things up. So there's at least that.
posted by codacorolla at 9:16 AM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

I got emails back from Hulu and Amazon - Hulu seemed like a maybe, and Amazon seemed like a probably not. But apparently Netflix has been much more receptive to this feedback. Check out this adorable livechat transcript from when a Facebook friend of mine messaged them...
posted by showbiz_liz at 9:19 AM on June 23, 2015 [2 favorites]

Goddamn it NBC you miserable rat bastards. Fuck.
posted by homunculus at 10:02 AM on June 23, 2015

Amazon have said no! Concentrate on Netflix and Hulu.

I'm going to contact Netflix in the UK because it's obviously no good to me if they pick up the series but only broadcast it in the US.
posted by tel3path at 11:01 AM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

Do both - US Netflix (or whoever) picking it up is what'll keep it in existence...
posted by showbiz_liz at 11:02 AM on June 23, 2015

Live chatted netflix while reading the (wonderful) New Yorker review. Please netflix, pleeeeease?
posted by zara at 11:32 AM on June 23, 2015 [1 favorite]

I just live-chatted Netflix about this too and the woman who answered my question was so fantastic and adorable! She was like, "OMG RIGHT?! I promise from the bottom of my Fannibal heart that we'll do everything we can! Poor Bryan Fuller, first Pushing Daisies and now this... I can't promise anything because of rights issues and stuff but we're trying!" So yeah, it's certainly worth a try if only because you might get a super-wonderful chat center person who you'll end up wanting to befriend.
posted by dialetheia at 12:04 PM on June 23, 2015 [4 favorites]

Hulu sent me an email back that seems form-ish with a few particulars copy and pasted in, but it does indicate that they're getting a lot of responses about picking up Hannibal,

Thanks for getting in touch with us, and thanks for the suggestion. We're getting a ton of requests today from fans of Hannibal. I'll pass your request to our content team here. While that's not a guarantee we'll be able to secure the streaming rights for the show, we're always looking to expand our library.

If there's anything else I can do – or if there are any other shows you'd like to see added to Hulu – please let me know.

I mean, what else are they going to say? But having form language specifically for Hannibal fans is somewhat promising. I've never tried any of Hulu's original content... is it good?
posted by codacorolla at 6:50 PM on June 23, 2015

I didn't even realise Hulu had original streaming content.
posted by crossoverman at 8:08 PM on June 23, 2015

So I went back and watched the first three episodes in a row, and wow they both make so much more sense to me after watching this episode. And The Whelk was totally right - it plays so much better in an uninterrupted 3-episode block. (The rest of my comment is mostly about the second episode but specifically in the context of this episode).

Watching the second episode again really hammered home how every single one of the creepy Stockholm-syndromey things that Abigail said was really some part of Will talking. Their dialogue ultimately seems to be Will pleading with some part of himself not to run back to Hannibal, but 'Abigail' eventually seems to get her way.

Then, after mind-Abigail bleeds out at the crime scene in Palermo, Will's behavior seems to change. When he was talking to Abigail before, he seemed to have a pretty even keel (for Will Graham, anyway): he didn't think it's a great idea to go after Hannibal and argued with her about it, and he seemed to be at least passively cooperating with Pazzi. But after Abigail finally 'dies' and bleeds out, he seems to come to maybe some sort of grieving peace with Abigail but he seems to get even more conflicted, even more likely to go after Hannibal, like he's absorbed his Stockholm-syndromed projection of Abigail back into himself. Or maybe he just gets really excited that Hannibal is nearby, I don't know.

I didn't quite know what to make of Will's motivations when I watched Primavera the first time because the show hadn't given me much evidence that Will was ever truly interested in Hannibal that couldn't be written off as part of his fishing expedition (outside of maybe the warning call in Mizumono). I was pretty sure they wouldn't go any further with Hannigram than the Villainous Crush, and I certainly didn't think they'd dare to have Will remain full-on captivated by him after all the horrors in Mizumono, after he was exposed to everyone as a monster.

But after seeing the way Will talks and thinks about about Hannibal in Secondo - that little smile about knowing himself best when he's with Hannibal, the bits about knowing him 'intimately', the way he acts just like Hannibal in experimenting with Chiyoh, the fucking art murder gift for Hannibal, even just the way he recreates them looking at each other in his memories - I finally started to see that they're really doing this, they're really going to show Will having at least some feelings for Hannibal, however coerced they might be, even with Will knowing who he is. I mean, it can't possibly be just more fishing, right? Surely Hannibal would see right through it and Will would have no reason to keep up the act in his spare time the way that he is.

Now I'm so curious where they're going with this now that they've signaled that they aren't just going to treat it lightly, like some tittering subtext that will never ultimately mean anything to the show. It makes things so much more interesting and complex and unpredictable.
posted by dialetheia at 12:50 AM on June 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

One more quick thing - it's interesting to think about Will Graham in the context of the Heel-Turning Sorting Algorithm at TV Tropes. Depending on how you sort him for each category, he ends up somewhere in the middle overall for likelihood of heel-turning, but the individual responses come out pretty polarized; most factors that put him in either the "highly likely" or "highly unlikely" categories. I think that tension is a big part of why I'm finding him so ridiculously compelling this season.
posted by dialetheia at 1:20 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Hannigram was never ever just queerbaiting - it was always deadly serious. Like, literally deadly serious.
posted by tel3path at 2:25 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

I feel like something has to have happened during those eight months to make Will EVEN MOAR disillusioned with "good people" and the "friends" who are "on his side against Hannibal".

When the doctor ushers in someone who's "anxious to see" Will - either the doctor also saw Abigail, or it was someone else and Will conjured Abigail to tune this person out. My guess is either Freddie Lounds or Kade Purnell in the "disillusioned" thread. Otherwise it's someone come to tell him Abigail died.

I also notice that Alana and Jack have switched places, if the previews are to be believed. Jack has gone to, apparently, take his friend back to the family home where he'll be safe and the nasty cannibal can't hurt him any more. Alana is - as I actually anticipated! chiding Will for ignoring the worst in Hannibal after all he's done (insert titanic LOL here) and then is later heard saying "Will knows what he has to do". If this is what I think it is: Alana sends him out to Get Hannibal because Hannibal Must Be Stopped and it's obvious, seeing Will slumped on the floor next to the fridge next to the ghost of Abigail, that he is in most excellent mental shape to go back into the field so get the fuck out there and avenge me, Will.
posted by tel3path at 2:39 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

But I think it's also really clear that a relationship with Hannibal is fundamentally an abusive one. It seems to be the point of the Bedelia stuff. In that context, reading Will's "I forgive you" as sincere is more like Battered Spouse Syndrome than anything else. I feel like the people who see Hannigram as genuinely romantic are the same sort of people as those who read Lolita as a tragic love story.

To return to an idea above, both such readings -- I would say misreadings -- are influenced the sentimentalization of gaslighting and abuse that we get in many popular romances: "Hannibal and Will must really love each other, or they wouldn't spend all their time manipulating and stalking one another!" By adding literal cannibal murders to the mix, the show pushes that troublesome trope straight past its breaking point. *And yet some people still hang on to the trope.* In this reading Will himself isn't a character in his own story, he's just the A-number one Hannigram fan.

I still prefer the idea that Will is surpassing Hannibal, anyway. Prisoner Guy isn't a gift to Hannibal, it's Will boldly mucking with the part of Hannibal's memory palace that Hannibal himself fears to revisit.
posted by kewb at 3:13 AM on June 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

You can say that again. I think at this point my worst fear is that the show is going to turn out to be full-on romanticization of abuse and my second-worst fear is that Will is going to convert to Hannibalism. I don't really see a way out of either, from the scrips and scraps we know of where this season is heading.

I assume we can expect better of Fuller, but maybe I'm assuming too much.

But then, last season Hannibal was surpassing Will. "You're the new Will Graham!" He does Will's job, cheerfully and while whistling a happy tune (and Bev actually notices this and starts getting a vibe of "wait, now that we're getting what we thought we wanted from Will, it seems like Will's tormented response was actually the less creepy version?"), nails the girl he likes, and rocks some casual sweaters and shirts. This season, Will sorts out a dangling situation of Hannibal's once and for all, creates an imago art monument to Mischa or whatever idek, and... does...

yeah, we genuinely can't tell at this point. You're right, kewb, Will is actually making himself out to be tougher than Hannibal in this particular matter. Going in and rewriting his memories, nyaah.

I know people keep on saying "but what if like it was all in hannibal's memory palace cause like" NO but, this episode, I'm not saying it WAS in Will's version of Hannibal's memory palace but it would have fit, narratively, if it had been. The only support we have for that interpretation is how weirdly young Chiyoh looks so, for once, I actually think it's possible (though not probable).

And... if Bedelia's life with Hannibal is starting to seem a little boring and fractured I think that's the point. I think it's got to be seen as the Anticlimactic European Vacation that the murder family would have had.
posted by tel3path at 3:26 AM on June 24, 2015 [3 favorites]

It's not so much boring and fractured as it is proof that Life with Hannibal would not be joyfully skipping through museums and keeping the cannibal so happy he'd never need to eat anyone else, but rather a daily struggle to maintain a semblance of autonomy while Hannibal's compulsions to murder drive him to fuck everything up. It turns out Lecter doesn't eat people because he is superhumanly keen and cultured; he has become superhumanly keen and cultured because that's the way he justifies eating people.

On the other side of things, Bedilia's needling analysis of Hannibal, whom she wishes to observe more than actually be with, is a pretty good case against Willana.
posted by kewb at 4:19 AM on June 24, 2015 [5 favorites]

I don't think Alana really did have any curiosity about Will, though. I thi k she thought she pretty mich had his number by the start of S1. I think Willana was more about fixing and then saving him: first, Hannibal was going to give him his long awaited therapy and make Will over in a more stable image and then maybe Willana? No wait I just have to get him out of jail and then maybe Willana? Leonard Braver burst that particular bubble and Alana saw how unrealistic it had gotten. I think Willana was always about moving goalposts and was always basically meant to be just out of reach.

But yeah this is what a relationship based on professional curiosity would look like.
posted by tel3path at 5:52 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

I finally started to see that they're really doing this, they're really going to show Will having at least some feelings for Hannibal, however coerced they might be, even with Will knowing who he is. I mean, it can't possibly be just more fishing, right? Surely Hannibal would see right through it and Will would have no reason to keep up the act in his spare time the way that he is.

I think maybe Will is allowing the part of himself that genuinely wants to be with Hannibal to take over, because he can justify it to himself as ~becoming the perfect lure~. That's what he tried to do last time, but he didn't take it far enough.
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:20 AM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

But I think it's also really clear that a relationship with Hannibal is fundamentally an abusive one.

Oh god yes, and I really should have made that clearer! I don't think it's romantic at all, though it's almost as compelling as it is horrifying.

To return to an idea above, both such readings -- I would say misreadings -- are influenced the sentimentalization of gaslighting and abuse that we get in many popular romances: "Hannibal and Will must really love each other, or they wouldn't spend all their time manipulating and stalking one another!" By adding literal cannibal murders to the mix, the show pushes that troublesome trope straight past its breaking point.

This is really astute too.

I'm mostly interested in their relationship with respect to what it means for the moral story they're telling. The most resonant aspect of this story for me is the uncompromising way in which they show everybody seduced by Hannibal's facade of civility and refinement, including the audience. People are so charmed that they completely overlook all of the suffering and exploitation that those aesthetics are based on. It's super obvious when Hannibal interacts with his social-climber opera cronies, but it's even clear with Jack or Alana; they still aspire to Hannibal's class and are willing to overlook some things (consciously or not) to enjoy those trappings. It indicts us all for wanting to climb ladders to affluence which are based on exploitation and suffering. (although incidentally, it's interesting that Will resists all of those aesthetic trappings and is instead drawn to Hannibal by his true nature, which I assume is why Hannibal is so enthralled by him).

So last season, I felt like they were using Will's (questionably) feigned interest in Hannibal as one more way of indicting the audience for liking Hannibal - but this time for being fascinating and literally seductive, rather than just high-class or refined (since Will doesn't really go in for that stuff). It's notable because now we're not fascinated by the facade, we're fascinated by the monster himself. We go down that rabbit hole along with Will. We watch it knowing full well that Hannibal is a monster, but he's somehow seductive even while we watch him abuse Will or slice up a lung. They shoot Mikkelsen like a pinup, just like they shoot the food; if we weren't meant to be attracted to him, they'd shoot him unflatteringly most of the time. Instead they alternate between showing him as a golden god (especially from Will's or Bedelia's point of view) and showing him as a hideous murderer. They do a similar thing with the glimpses of his weird murder-philosophy, in a way - those revelations are centered, lovingly framed, artfully examined. Their therapy scenes even feel a lot like sex scenes, in that both men clearly get off on getting into each others' minds like this and the atmosphere is so charged. It's important that Hannibal isn't the only one who gets off on getting into peoples' heads, Will really seems to enjoy this aspect even outside of his fishing expedition. Again, it indicts the audience along with Will for being so interested and fascinated in the inner workings of this amoral arguably-psychotic killer. Why are we so fascinated by evil, and so willing to put so much time and energy into trying to understand its nuances?

The whole "is Will faking this or not" ambiguity gave the audience a little bit of wiggle room with this, like they can believe that he is (we are) only playing along with this fascination to catch Hannibal, so seeing them ostensibly abandon that pretense this season really makes me wonder if they're going to stick that indictment to the audience even harder, or alternatively let us off the hook. If they're accurately depicting Will's mental and emotional state (which is always a big if), they're taking away some of that leeway and saying either he was abused/coerced into these feelings and/or he was always really fascinated with Hannibal, no matter what he told himself about his true reasons.

So to me, if Will is still fascinated with Hannibal, it's either a very harsh indictment of the audience - look, you crazy motherfuckers are STILL in love with this guy and what he represents, even after he literally gutted you, and look at the awful things you're capable of doing as a result! - or they're doing something new and interesting with the coercion/abuse aspect. I'll be really interested to see how they might do justice to Will's continuing (coerced, abused!) interest in Hannibal without letting the audience off the hook or romanticizing abuse at the same time. What culpability do people bear for participating in an exploitative system that results in death and suffering, even under the force of coercion? That theme makes the show so complex and interesting to me and I can't wait to see where they're going with this.
posted by dialetheia at 10:36 AM on June 24, 2015 [7 favorites]

oh man there's gonna be a Bryan Fuller SDCC Exclusive Funko doll....

Now your Funko dolls can re-create backstage conversations!
posted by The Whelk at 12:35 PM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

dialetheia, you hit a lot of nails on a lot of heads.

One thing - the whole "seduction/willingness to ignore" thing. I found myself surprised over and over again at the audience's surprise when they SAW Hannibal do [insert dastardly thing here]. The first thing was bashing Alana's head against the wall.

Like - the PREMISE of the show is that the guy is a cannibalistic serial killer. We knew this going in. There was never any doubt about this fact, at all. And yet, somehow, *seeing* him bash Alana's head was a surprising thing to them. Never mind that the FIRST shot we have of Hannibal is him eating what we know are human lungs. No, people just had, like NO IDEA he was capable of VIOLENCE until they saw him actually do it. And even then - it's the head-bashing that's shocking, less so than Hannibal's subsequent blackmail of a teenage girl.

And then people just forgot about the head-bashing.

WTF IS IT WITH PEOPLE?!? HOW DO THEY THINK A PERSON GETS HUMAN LUNGS ON THEIR KITCHEN COUNTERTOP IN THE FIRST PLACE? But nope, they didn't actually see him yank the lungs out of that particular person, so to all intents and purposes they don't know he did it, because some people just don't know anything unless they directly witness it.

And then they forget all about it, till the next time. And then they forget all about the next time, till the next time.

Also, dialetheia, you're right that Will isn't interested in Hannibal's wealth or trappings or fancystuff. There is no version of Will - well, some fanfics, but even then it's more about the meaning behind the gesture - that cares about Hannibal's wealth. EVERY version of Will in EVERY universe cares WHO HANNIBAL IS.

Which brings up just how much classism there is in audience responses to the character. There's a lot of jeering at him from the get-go about how sweaty and impoverished he looks and how you can tell he's severely mentally ill by the way he dresses. Not only is Will not severely mentally ill (possibly not even now - he's traumatized, but he's not hallucinating as some people seem to think) but he dresses exactly the same as Zeller does.

The way people keep going on about how "impoverished" he is - apparently the demographic of this show's viewership trends towards very high income earners, households above $100K per year. So there's that. Also, I'm getting a vibe of "new money" here, because we know that Will embarked on his professional life with NO family resources to fund him. He seems to be the all-American self-made man, which SHOULD elicit huge amounts of awe and admiration, especially in times like these. But NOPE. He goes around looking like a "confused fisherman" and people act like he's completely devoid of adult life skills. (He who can take down six murderers with one hand while disarming man-eating pigs with the other, uncork a wine bottle with a pocket knife, build a night shelter out of a pile of twigs and a dead bee, walk to Lithuania navigating with only the help of a band of fireflies he trained for the purpose.)

Contrast that with "old money" Hannibal, who the other characters MUST know is a Count. Do they assume that all his money is family money? Are those antiquities in his living room family heirlooms? Or did this version of Lecter also amass his fortune the Harold Shipman way, like in the books? (oh sure those patients really did leave him money voluntarily, uh-huh. can you believe that bit of Lecter's history was published FIVE years before Harold Shipman was invented? we're never going to believe it about Lecter now, at least not in the UK.)

And as for the abuse thing... I've been thinking about it and I can only agree that he's letting himself give in to his desire to be with Hannibal, and that ultimately this will serve to help him catch Hannibal, and that he remains a nonbinary thinker in these matters. That would frankly be true to life for someone who's endured as much abuse as he has. Remember the line in the Red Dragon movie "How did you catch him?" "I let him kill me" - well, that's what I think he's working towards. It matches the line "I think I'll eat your heart" which is what Hannibal is working towards. Neither of those bits of dialogue, nor anything that led up to them, appear in the book or in previous renditions in film.

I also think we have to recognize that it's not only that this fascination was already in Will - he was "psychic driven" to the extremes he finds himself in now. Psychic driving is where you play a tape on continuous loop to someone like "Hannibal Lecter is your boyfriend, Hannibal Lecter is your boyfriend" so it has a very specific meaning. But essentially, it's what the entire community has been doing to Will since Zeller ran his mouth off to Freddie. Since episode 2 of season 1 everyone has been saying Will is a psycho killer, Will is a psycho killer. The patient notes that are up for auction say that Will needs to accept his weakness and crave my power. Well, isn't that also what the entire community was saying to Will for the better part of two seasons? That he needed to accept his weakness (instability) and crave Hannibal's power (therapy)? If Will is in this role, it's in large part because EVERYONE has been reflecting back at him a desire to see him in that role - and being empathic, you bet he picked up on that. echolalia67 once pointed out that for gaslighting to really work, you have to convince everyone around the target, too. And in turn, everyone around Will convinced Will.

I read a young adult book called "The Tulip Touch", by Anne Fine. It's about a girl who makes friends with another girl who is from an abusive family. Over time, the other girl morphs from just a "problem child" to an incipient psychopath - but the narrator of the book recognizes that EVERYONE was casting the girl in this role because of how they wanted to see themselves, that nobody ever offered this girl the real and serious help that would have made a genuine difference to her because that would have been too sacrificial/inconvenient so they just made concerned clucking "aren't I caring" noises from a distance. The book really gets across that the girl never stood a chance, and the narrator recognizes with horror that she too played her part in this.
posted by tel3path at 12:40 PM on June 24, 2015 [4 favorites]

but he dresses exactly the same as Zeller does.

He actually dresses considerabely nicer than the Science Twins even if it's in the same basic mode -- Will's stuff may not be expertly matched but it's all high-end classic mensware stuff, all natural material, sturdy construction, etc. Will dresses like a well-paid academic who's outdoorsy and puts money into things that will last a long time.

He's only "poor" next to 1200$ bottle of wine every night at dinner Mr. Has A Literal Castle over here
posted by The Whelk at 12:45 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Also I was thinking about Bedannibal.

They really are playing it like a classic '70s sitcom couple, the wife passive-aggressively fed up with her husband all the time.

Also, three episodes have gone by and they clearly haven't had sex, which is also consistent with being a classic '70s sitcom couple. More than that - the reasons why are really obvious, and I think people stopped questioning it as soon as they saw the relationship play out onscreen. Remember that "consent culture" is a very very very newfangled thing. It's only in VERY recent years that bullying or nagging people to do stuff that they don't want to do, simply because you want it, has really been considered socially unacceptable. In the '70s, the sitcom couple would be not having sex because the "frigid" wife wouldn't adapt to the husband's preferences - probably because she was in a permanently semi-rapey situation of being constantly nagged to give in to things that would have been painful or humiliating for her (regardless of what those acts were - it's the way the husband related to her that made it so). Well, Hannibal and Bedelia are like that with murder. She tolerates it all through gritted teeth. She puts up (just) with other people approaching her husband and asking if it's that kind of party, which turns out to be the kind of party where the person who is offering to indulge her husband's kinks gets killed by the very nature of joining in the fun. Her husband even tricks her into doing it herself, ha ha!

It turns the sitcom stereotype of frigid wife on its head. We all know why Bedelia doesn't want to indulge her husband's kinks, to the point where nobody's even questioning it; it's self-evident.
posted by tel3path at 12:47 PM on June 24, 2015

I also read a recent comment by somebody who said "come on guys, abusive relationships involve complicated feelings on BOTH sides and this is the first show I've seen that really paints it realistically, try to have some appreciation of nuance".

I really think that's true. It's so uncomfortable because it's so true to life. Also, people who are being abused are always urged - partly because it helps - to paint it black and ignore any shades of grey because you have to focus on how bad your situation is in order to maintain the resolve to get away from it.

I just... yeah, Hannibal really loves Will. In his own way. The linoleum knife way. Then the whingeing about it later way. He loves Will AND he is also 30000000% destructive about it.
posted by tel3path at 12:54 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Plus, Will's much-hyped coat is blue this episode. Blue, you guys. You'd think the colour blue would be a thing of the past with him, but NOPE. He's cloaking himself in blue.

Yeah, I think he's concluded he just didn't go far enough last season and has to really let it take him this time. Bedelia is doing a version of the same thing, though her strategy still involves holding back (while acknowledging that she's holding back).
posted by tel3path at 12:59 PM on June 24, 2015

Oh and, right, Will is this guy in relation to Hannibal's trappings.

You could say he's being a dense insensitive guy, but the fact is - Hannibal DID make him chicken soup. Will is perceptive enough to notice that.
posted by tel3path at 1:05 PM on June 24, 2015

As has been pointed out elsewhere, that soup is an immune booster, which Hannibal makes knowing that Will is suffering from an autoimmune condition.
posted by kewb at 1:08 PM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Yeah, like I said, Hannibal loves Will in his own way.
posted by tel3path at 1:13 PM on June 24, 2015

The utter utter bastard way.
posted by tel3path at 1:14 PM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

I'm not sure about the 70s sitcom couple, as that makes me think of the Ropers (Man About the House / George and Mildred) who didn't play out that dynamic at all - George is almost desexualised, Mildred highly sexualised and (as I remember, but it was a long time ago) predatory towards Robin. That's the pattern I remember, but I could be being selective.
posted by Grangousier at 1:15 PM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

And you know - about Will not aspiring to ascend to Hannibal's "class" - we know that book!Will has considerable class resentment against the rich. He doesn't ever express that towards Lecter in the show; I assume he just doesn't mind it cos Hannibal is his friend, after all.

But he also doesn't envy it. Will has all he needs and enough of everything. He has his own house, he has good clothes and his own washing machine for the weekly laundry; he has all the fishing rods he can eat and a deep freeze in the barn (unless he usually keeps it in the basement and only moved it to the barn for Freddie's benefit, idk). He has a piano. He has a space heater. He has a Volvo. He has money enough in the bank to pay for encephalitis, a gunshot wound, false imprisonment for five murders, disembowelment (though if he had access to the FBI's lawyers, he also likely had access to the FBI's health insurance regardless of what Kade Purnell said about his employment status), a herringbone tweed coat, and reglazing of his left back window. What else would he want?

Jack's doing pretty well for himself, too. I mean look at that wallpaper! He has pinstriped pyjamas too!

I've often toyed with the idea of how alt!Will is going to feel when he and alt!nice!Hannibal make wedding plans and Hannibal makes an offhand remark about Will owning half his net worth and this realization hitting Will hard. Because Will obviously has to worry all the time. So he'll have to be nailbiting about how terrible it is that he's marrying an aristocrat with wealth coming out of every orifice. Maybe he will confide to Bev (who is still alive in that verse, because nice!Hannibal obviously was too nice to kill her) and Bev will be like DID I MENTION I PLAY THE VIOLIN? and she will whip out a doll house violin and go WORLD'S TINIEST VIOLIN at Will. Yes, fortunately that will be Will's biggest problem in the alt!nice!Hanniverse - how to come to terms with the staggering upgrade in his personal fortune, when he was doing very nicely on his own.
posted by tel3path at 1:51 PM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

Hannibal and Will (and Hannibal and Bedelia) remind me a bit of George and Martha from Who's Afraid of Virginia Woolf? only with fancy manners.
posted by FelliniBlank at 7:51 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Bryan Fuller on 'Hannibal's' Future: "There Has Been Interest" From Other Outlets

Also, he says the next four episodes "are as insane and gory as anything we’ve done on the show and are actually among my favorite episodes we’ve ever done."
posted by showbiz_liz at 7:53 PM on June 24, 2015 [2 favorites]

Bryan Fuller on 'Hannibal's' Future: "There Has Been Interest" From Other Outlets

Yeah, while I'm admittedly a business dunderhead, I don't see why there would be any downside whatsoever in Amazon picking up the first run of Seasons 4-6 when they already stream the show after initial broadcast and somebody else covers most (or all?) of the production budget. How could they not make money on that deal?
posted by FelliniBlank at 8:14 PM on June 24, 2015 [1 favorite]

While Gaumont produces the show, the licence fee NBC paid - while cheap in comparison to other shows - probably made up a large percentage of the production budget. Amazon or even Netflix might not be able to pay that kind of money, which is why there has been talk of budget cutbacks if it streams. Fuller has never compromised his vision, so a significant budget cut might not work for him. And that might not just have to do with CGI effects, it might have to do with paying the whole cast.

That said, it might still be worth it for both of those outlets for the prestige and more people subscribing to their services.
posted by crossoverman at 11:23 PM on June 24, 2015

Bryan Fuller on 'Hannibal's' Future: "There Has Been Interest" From Other Outlets

Interesting that Netflix is off the table in his mind. Makes sense with the Amazon deal. I still think there must be cable networks that would want it. Come on, AMC could do with some non-zombie programming.
posted by crossoverman at 12:04 AM on June 25, 2015

I was actually wondering if he put that Netflix thing out there to be like "yo, Amazon, don't be an asshole here - if you don't want us, let us out of the contract." Not to say Amazon doesn't want them, but if they don't...
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:21 AM on June 25, 2015

While Gaumont produces the show, the licence fee NBC paid - while cheap in comparison to other shows - probably made up a large percentage of the production budget. Amazon or even Netflix might not be able to pay that kind of money

This year, NBC were paying $185K per episode. An episode of Orange is the New Black costs like 3-4 million dollars. Netflix can totally afford it.
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:23 AM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]

Apparently there is a very spoilery promo going around. Be aware, if you're trying to avoid at least SOME spoilers. I haven't watched it, but here is a sampling of responses from people who have:

What in the fucking flying fuck @ what they show. Jesus christ this show

Holy moly this season's going to go all out with the disturbing shit isn't it?

Sweet fuck why did I watch that

If only half of what's in that thing is 'real' ( though with this show, who the fuck knows what qualifies as real anymore ), this is going to be absolutely and utterly amazing!
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:49 AM on June 25, 2015

I've watched it and it is INSANE in the DURA MATER.
posted by infinitewindow at 10:21 AM on June 25, 2015 [3 favorites]

Man the saga of this cancellation is gripping. Monday all the press was just "Hannibal cancelled." Tuesday, it was "fans launch campaign to renew Hannibal." And by today, it's all "Hannibal Season 4?" and "Why Hannibal will totally be renewed" and also a ton of op-eds from fans of the show who happen to have their own columns. I am knocking on wood as I type this, but the kerfuffle around NBC's decision may wind up being the best press this show has ever gotten.

If you're the Twittering type, don't forget to livetweet tonight with hashtags (#hannibal and #savehannibal I think). It counts in the ratings.
posted by showbiz_liz at 12:54 PM on June 25, 2015

I was comically outbid for those prop papers BTW -- wondering if the non-renewal news was a factor
posted by The Whelk at 12:55 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

Another fun puppet recap by Greg Nog
posted by The Whelk at 1:54 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]

So another interview... spoilers only not as usual.

Episode 4 will tell us what happened to put Will in this state of mind, according to that. Which we could have figured out for ourselves. But I guess, for him to be in a state of "gee, I don't know whether to be on the side of the murdering cannibal sociopath that did [all that stuff I listed above] or on the side of my teammates against crime, my boon companions, the colleagues who stood by me through OH WAIT, THEY DIDN'T."

So yeah, Will really had good reason to be dubious of the White Hat characters before and I guess whatever is about to happen is not gonna improve that. No "my buddies made a mistake, but now they have the right information! We're all in this together on the path to defeating evil!"
posted by tel3path at 2:48 PM on June 25, 2015 [1 favorite]

This year, NBC were paying $185K per episode. An episode of Orange is the New Black costs like 3-4 million dollars. Netflix can totally afford it.

Does anybody know the per-episode production cost of Transparent? It's got to be somewhat comparable to Orange. Also, I believe Amazon forked over $750k per episode just to stream Under the Dome after the CBS first-run broadcast. Hannibal's a freaking bargain.
posted by FelliniBlank at 2:55 PM on June 25, 2015

What in the fucking flying fuck @ what they show. Jesus christ this show

Holy moly this season's going to go all out with the disturbing shit isn't it?

Sweet fuck why did I watch that

If only half of what's in that thing is 'real' ( though with this show, who the fuck knows what qualifies as real anymore ), this is going to be absolutely and utterly amazing!

Oh goddammit. Since I always DVR the show anyhow and usually also torrent the de-commercialed version to obviate fast-forwarding, I was really going to try for once to make myself NOT watch the broadcast in real time. But based solely on these responses, I'm pretty sure I'll be glued to the fucking screen at 10, obnoxious Olive Garden ads notwithstanding.
posted by FelliniBlank at 3:05 PM on June 25, 2015

I'm rewatching the last two and I was struck by how scared Will is during the "God only knows what I'd do without him" part. Like since he's talking to himself, he's scared at the line of thought he's leading himself down....
posted by The Whelk at 5:02 PM on June 25, 2015 [2 favorites]

When I watched this for the first time I was convinced we weren't really being told whether or not Hannibal killed Mischa, but this time around I'm almost 100% certain he did. What do you guys think? We sort of stopped talking about this episode once, you know, the show got shitcanned
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:31 PM on June 29, 2015

I still think it's too ambitious to say and we don't have canon to really go on cause so much has been changed?
posted by The Whelk at 6:33 PM on June 29, 2015

These are the bits that made me think he must have done it -

>How do you know it was your prisoner who killed Mischa?
>>...Hannibal told me so.

followed by

>Did you know? At some level... you knew. He created a story out of events that only he experienced. "All sorrows can be borne if you put them in a story."
>>For Mischa... I'll help you find him.

That sure sounds like Will is asking "did you know Hannibal lied to you when he told you this guy killed Mischa?"

And then later we have

>What your sister made you feel was beyond your conscious ability to control or predict.
>>Or negotiate.
[...]
>>Mischa didn't betray me. She influenced me to betray myself, but I forgave her that influence.
>If past behavior is an indicator of future behavior, there is only one way you will forgive Will Graham.
>>I have to eat him.

THAT sure seems to be saying "I loved my sister and I couldn't deal, so I killed her which allowed me to forgive her, just like I love Will and can't deal so I have to kill HIM which will allow me to forgive him."
posted by showbiz_liz at 6:52 PM on June 29, 2015 [5 favorites]

As I noted above, I got the definite impression that the story is a bit more complicated than "guy in cage killed Mischa and made Hannibal eat her" or that Hannibal inadvertently ate her. There's his reference to the Sogliato shish kebabs, for instance, where he says he made the dish the first time in honor of his sister. [Gotta love Bedelia's snarky rejoinder.] And the thing about how "nothing happened to him at home; he happened," and that forgiving Will's betrayal by eating him is what he also did with Mischa.

It sounds like there was more participation than observation, unless this is Will-and-Abigail type survivor's guilt on Hannibal's part.
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:52 PM on June 29, 2015 [1 favorite]

And on non-preview, what showbiz liz said!
posted by FelliniBlank at 6:53 PM on June 29, 2015

I agree. Will acts like it's 3000% obvious that Hannibal killed his sister and stitched up this other guy.

You can never completely trust what any character says about any other character though. So just because Will says this is the case doesn't mean it is. Likewise, just because Chiyoh says Will intentionally set her up to kill the prisoner doesn't mean that is true.

However, we have Hannibal implying that he was, um, interested in the culinary arts from the earliest age. And then Bedelia zinging him in a way he doesn't have a comeback for. I think that's tantamount to an admission of guilt.

The complicating factor is that *Hannibal* could have false memories of that event and be remembering himself as much more culpable than he was. I think we're being asked to believe that he did kill her. However, if Hannibal's efforts to convince Will he killed Abigail were actually a repetition of earlier, *successful* attempts to convince Hannibal himself he killed Mischa, that Hannibal does not know he didn't kill Mischa, and everything Hannibal has done since were a reaction to an incriminating story that Hannibal has falsely believed all his life, wow! And also, narratively appropriate!

I never really believed the "if there's some identifiable formative event the monster isn't really a monster" argument. Isn't it monstrous enough that Hannibal does what he does, without requiring him to be all idiopathic and mysterious about it? furthermore, cannibalism wasn't really that unusual a thing to have to resort to in various areas of the USSR in the 20th century. just as Mischa doesn't explain or quantify what Hannibal does, I doubt there's any explanation anyone could come up with that would explain him. I always thought he was most impactful if you regard him as a man, just a man.
posted by tel3path at 4:09 AM on July 5, 2015 [1 favorite]

in a nutshell, why couldn't "nothing happened to me i happened" be the story Hannibal tells himself to bear his sorrows, when in reality he was shaped by his environment and was not the prime mover in his own development at all? Just as the idea that Will could have changed him was offensive to him and something he wanted to refute.
posted by tel3path at 4:19 AM on July 5, 2015 [1 favorite]

the idea that Will could have changed him was offensive to him and something he wanted to refute.

That's more or less how I read all that. Remember how he says 'She influenced me to betray myself, but I forgave her that influence'? And that he must forgive Will the same way he forgave Mischa?

That implies that Mischa gave some offense to Hannibal and I assumed it was the same offense as Will's - changing Hannibal, make him Less Than Himself. I guess she probably did it just by existing, or by loving Hannibal. If he felt genuine affection for her, he might well have sublimated his own desires at some point to please her.

Maybe that became more unacceptable to him, and then the ettin'?
posted by pseudonymph at 6:01 AM on July 5, 2015 [2 favorites]

Cleolinda recap!
posted by The Whelk at 4:28 PM on August 17, 2015 [3 favorites]

I was just looking over this and

You know, maybe Whelk was right and a mysterious fog did descend for decades. That would make the estate itself the equivalent of the hunting lodge (or both are in the same location?!?) where the family hid undiscovered for three years.

And this Goya dude breaking in and attacking Mischa maps onto the bombing incident. Yes good.

Doesn't explain how little Chiyoh got there from Japan during the late 80s, but you can't have everything.
posted by tel3path at 3:10 PM on November 23, 2015

Just rewatched and noticed that Mischa's grave marker has "mylima" on it. Google translates that as "my loving wife." It puts a more intense and incestuous spin on Hannibal's love for her, particularly given the dialogue between Hannibal and Bedelia.
posted by bfranklin at 4:04 AM on July 8, 2016

The translations on this show were actively bad, rather than not very good. It looked like they plugged everything into Google Translate and dumped it unfiltered into the text.

I can't swear to this but it sounds like "mylima" is a Russian-influenced word (милая, "dear (girl)") so off the top of my head I think it was intended to mean (be)loved (female). There's probably not much more to it than that.

I do think Mischa seems like she was older than two. Hannibal was aged up for the show, being adopted at 16 rather than 13, and orphaned about the same time. Eat the Rudecast noticed that Mischa's grave had a bird of paradise on it, which symbolizes the ninth anniversary, and since we know she's been dead more than 9 years it suggests she was aged 9 when she died.

MM also said he thought Hannibal had put Chiyoh in charge of the prisoner when Chiyoh was aged 6 to 9, which affirms the idea that Chiyoh and Mischa were playmates. It also explains why Chiyoh looks young: she is young.

I've been thinking about this lately and here is what I think: Hannibal does seem to value Alana for more than utilitarian reasons, and it's probably because she reminds him of something. I think she reminds him of Mischa too young to understand who her big brother really was. This would explain why Hannibal never tries to "turn" Alana, not only because she's more useful when she's blind and not only because it wouldn't work on her, but BECAUSE it wouldn't work on her.

I'm thinking that when 9-year-old Mischa caught on to who her big brother was, that set off a chain of events that caused things to hit the fan and ended with her death. I guess we are meant to believe that Hannibal didn't kill Mischa, but whether he was doing his plotting thing and was characteristically reckless as to whether she was harmed or not? Maybe.

And if Will represents a Mischa who not only could understand Hannibal but was just like him? That would explain why Will seems like the answer to all Hannibal's fantasies. Note that Will and Alana are similar types appearance-wise.

Supposing Mischa died not by Hannibal's hand but because of his machinations. I'm thinking about the time he tested Will by sending him after Gideon, who in turn he'd sent to kill Alana. I'm wondering if he somehow tested Mischa by pitting her against the guy who was Chiyoh's prisoner. For example. And that Mischa inevitably died in the conflict because she couldn't or wouldn't share Hannibal's mindset, which she would be required to do in order to become his Apprentice Murderer.

I can imagine Hannibal using Mischa as a lure in many situations, after all, who's going to suspect a kid who has an adorable little moppet in tow?
posted by tel3path at 4:22 AM on July 8, 2016 [2 favorites]

Great comment, tel3path. That last paragraph is exactly the sort of thing this show would do, and it builds perfectly on what we know of Hannibal and Abigail's relationship.
posted by bfranklin at 3:31 AM on July 11, 2016