Legion: Speculation and book spoilers ahoy! Books Included
March 5, 2017 4:25 PM - Season 1 (Full Season) - Subscribe
Let's discuss Legion, including the comic books! So we can speculate about the Devil with Yellow Eyes!
This post follows a suggestion from oh yeah!
This post follows a suggestion from oh yeah!
It's either Shadow King which comes directly from the Legion comics or an outside bet being Mojo of the Mojoverse.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 6:49 AM on March 6, 2017
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 6:49 AM on March 6, 2017
We've been thinking MOJO at our house, because of the evil smile and general appearance. Does the Shadow King look like anything in particular?
posted by happyroach at 11:02 AM on March 6, 2017
posted by happyroach at 11:02 AM on March 6, 2017
Shadow King doesn't really have a body of his own. He inhabits people and the hosts get morbidly obese. At least the last time I read something with him in it. He was more a demonic entity.
Mojo would make sense in that they can make a statement about reality television and producers, and also explain how this is all a parallel universe slightly connected to the current Marvel television universe. Marvel film and television has introduced aliens too, which Mojo is.
Or they could even combine the Shadow King and Mojo.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 11:40 AM on March 6, 2017
Mojo would make sense in that they can make a statement about reality television and producers, and also explain how this is all a parallel universe slightly connected to the current Marvel television universe. Marvel film and television has introduced aliens too, which Mojo is.
Or they could even combine the Shadow King and Mojo.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 11:40 AM on March 6, 2017
Point in favor of Shadow King:
Beagle is called King. He seems to be limited to the Astral plane and attacking people with psionic energy (both Oliver and David). He has history with Legion in the comics.
In the books, he had a body, which was killed by Xavier. He hung out on the Astral Plane, and shows up by taking over people with psychic powers that are not well controlled. (David and Karma come to mind)
Mojo doesn't have any psychic powers, so other people would see him. Plus, I just cant accept Mojo without Spiral. And he's waay too chatty to go 4 episodes without a word.
posted by politikitty at 11:51 AM on March 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Beagle is called King. He seems to be limited to the Astral plane and attacking people with psionic energy (both Oliver and David). He has history with Legion in the comics.
In the books, he had a body, which was killed by Xavier. He hung out on the Astral Plane, and shows up by taking over people with psychic powers that are not well controlled. (David and Karma come to mind)
Mojo doesn't have any psychic powers, so other people would see him. Plus, I just cant accept Mojo without Spiral. And he's waay too chatty to go 4 episodes without a word.
posted by politikitty at 11:51 AM on March 6, 2017 [4 favorites]
Very good points, politikitty. I'm swayed to Shadow King.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 1:08 PM on March 6, 2017
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 1:08 PM on March 6, 2017
Current theory: Oliver is based partially on Proteus. that's why his body has to be frozen, rather than just in a coma. His body is in the final stages of decay. It's possible if he comes in contact with someone, his astral form will automatically hop bodies. This is why Cary was so concerned with Melanie getting close to his mask.
This is important because it's how we'll trap the shadow king.
I'm still confused about the pyrokinetic that saved Legion, since it's one of his original powers. It's possible it was the guy with Melanie on the beach, and they had to wait until he torched the room to enter. That probably means he's going to die and be absorbed by David any episode now.
(and nice nod to Excalibur with the lighthouse)
posted by politikitty at 1:40 PM on March 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
This is important because it's how we'll trap the shadow king.
I'm still confused about the pyrokinetic that saved Legion, since it's one of his original powers. It's possible it was the guy with Melanie on the beach, and they had to wait until he torched the room to enter. That probably means he's going to die and be absorbed by David any episode now.
(and nice nod to Excalibur with the lighthouse)
posted by politikitty at 1:40 PM on March 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
I immediately thought of Excalibur too! I miss the Alan Davis era of Excalibur. That period was my definitive Kitty Pryde and Nightcrawler, and I adored the Kitty and Rachel queer coded gals who are pals relationship.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 2:10 PM on March 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 2:10 PM on March 6, 2017 [2 favorites]
which comics would y'all recommend for the best Shadow King story? (that is, if i can find it in graphic novel form)
posted by kokaku at 2:59 AM on March 7, 2017
posted by kokaku at 2:59 AM on March 7, 2017
Let's see.
X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001 - the "birth" of the character so to speak. X-Men #117 is his first encounter with Professor X, David's father. Then in New Mutants #34 for the battle with the New Mutants , and Uncanny X-Men #253, which he comes back as Reisz, and is the story line with Legion. Though any issues involved in the "Psi War" involves this storyline.
Hope that helps. Someone else may have good issues to add. Oh wait! The end of Psi Wars Uncanny X-Men #280 is like where Shadow King breaks Xavier's legs again? I think. Give me a minute to doubl-yes. Okay. That one too.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 7:17 AM on March 7, 2017
X-Treme X-Men Annual 2001 - the "birth" of the character so to speak. X-Men #117 is his first encounter with Professor X, David's father. Then in New Mutants #34 for the battle with the New Mutants , and Uncanny X-Men #253, which he comes back as Reisz, and is the story line with Legion. Though any issues involved in the "Psi War" involves this storyline.
Hope that helps. Someone else may have good issues to add. Oh wait! The end of Psi Wars Uncanny X-Men #280 is like where Shadow King breaks Xavier's legs again? I think. Give me a minute to doubl-yes. Okay. That one too.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 7:17 AM on March 7, 2017
I'm assuming there is going to be a pivot-reveal at some point into the whole "Legion" idea, right? Otherwise why would you preserve the name?
My going theory for the first episode or two was that Syd wasn't real, but was another personality/power manifestation. It explained, among other things, how the first switch when she touches him isn't physical but the switch back is. A phenomenon that is still weird to me, but I'm willing to accept.
The last two episodes killed that theory, and anyway my theory didn't explain how them touching would work, exactly. But it seemed like she was frequently hanging back on the periphery whenever David was engaging directly with others in the group.
That left me with Lenny and Yellow Eyes being other personalities, but now they seem rather like an external entity, like the Shadow King. So if the show creators are indeed going down the "super MPD" road with this, they're doing a good job keeping those cards to their chest.
I feel like that pivot has to come, though, right? Especially after they took care in the last one to underscore that, even in scenes where David isn't present, we can't trust that it's not in David's head or of David's construction to some degree.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:36 AM on March 7, 2017
My going theory for the first episode or two was that Syd wasn't real, but was another personality/power manifestation. It explained, among other things, how the first switch when she touches him isn't physical but the switch back is. A phenomenon that is still weird to me, but I'm willing to accept.
The last two episodes killed that theory, and anyway my theory didn't explain how them touching would work, exactly. But it seemed like she was frequently hanging back on the periphery whenever David was engaging directly with others in the group.
That left me with Lenny and Yellow Eyes being other personalities, but now they seem rather like an external entity, like the Shadow King. So if the show creators are indeed going down the "super MPD" road with this, they're doing a good job keeping those cards to their chest.
I feel like that pivot has to come, though, right? Especially after they took care in the last one to underscore that, even in scenes where David isn't present, we can't trust that it's not in David's head or of David's construction to some degree.
posted by middleclasstool at 7:36 AM on March 7, 2017
Well we saw in the first episode the two people in the room that weren't there for anyone but him. I'm thinking maybe some of the patients might have been in his head as well. After that it's hard to tell who might be in the background because they exist and who may just be a hallucination until they pull one of those Sherlock look back and show the subtle clues that prove the outcome.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 8:16 AM on March 7, 2017
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 8:16 AM on March 7, 2017
So in the book, his split personality first manifested by absorbing a few minds when they died during a terrorist attack. Maybe it's important that the two people in the visitation room were an old woman and man. Perhaps his grandparents? And then Lenny.
The only thing is that I'm not sure where that leaves his mom and Redhook, since I suspect she was beheaded at some point and Redhook probably had casualties. But I suppose he doesn't have to absorb all the minds.
I'm still untangling his dad. Was that really the Shadow King trying to groom him, and that's why we couldn't see his face?
posted by politikitty at 11:00 AM on March 7, 2017
The only thing is that I'm not sure where that leaves his mom and Redhook, since I suspect she was beheaded at some point and Redhook probably had casualties. But I suppose he doesn't have to absorb all the minds.
I'm still untangling his dad. Was that really the Shadow King trying to groom him, and that's why we couldn't see his face?
posted by politikitty at 11:00 AM on March 7, 2017
Did anyone else think back to the Magik series with the Division 3 scene?
Clearly the writers room is binging Jay and Miles Xplain the Xmen as much as I am.
posted by politikitty at 10:50 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
Clearly the writers room is binging Jay and Miles Xplain the Xmen as much as I am.
posted by politikitty at 10:50 AM on March 9, 2017 [1 favorite]
When the stars talk to him, now the parasite reveal. You're right, it's Shadow King. This will be awesome.
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 12:18 PM on March 9, 2017
posted by 80 Cats in a Dog Suit at 12:18 PM on March 9, 2017
just realized everyone in the other thread is wondering about Melanie's powers. And I was like "she doesn't have any powers! She's Moira! this is Muir island!" And then I realized that Oliver could be Xavier, and we could have a wonderful rich backstory of other xmen teams. Division 3 is basically Black Air/W.H.O. But that means there could also be Freedom Force, X-Factor and the Australian Outback and New Mutants headed by Magneto.
posted by politikitty at 11:02 AM on March 10, 2017
posted by politikitty at 11:02 AM on March 10, 2017
The alternate promo for episode 7 explicitly named the Shadow King, so I'm sure that will be something they can easily explain to a non-comics audience in two episodes.
posted by bibliowench at 7:07 AM on March 17, 2017
posted by bibliowench at 7:07 AM on March 17, 2017
They already sort of did in episode 5 when Cary explained that this is "another mutant" who's been living like a parasite in David's brain since infancy. So far this show hasn't been overly interested in tying to continuity, so between that and Lenny's monologue to David this week, you don't have to do much more to explain who TSK is.
I really really hope that the introduction of Farouk doesn't mean we see less of Lenny. She's one of the best things about the show.
posted by middleclasstool at 10:20 AM on March 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I really really hope that the introduction of Farouk doesn't mean we see less of Lenny. She's one of the best things about the show.
posted by middleclasstool at 10:20 AM on March 17, 2017 [1 favorite]
I agree exactly with what middleclasstool just wrote with regards to backstory and continuity.
When everybody first started speculating about the Shadow King, I wasted some time trying to remember if it was the Shadow King who was after Maddie and Scott's baby during the initial X-Factor run. Then I realized that a) I was likely swapping one bad guy for another in my memory, b) that the story line I was attempting to recall was one of those overly complicated, needlessly messy X-Men plots that end up sprawling all over every title available and wrecking havoc with ongoing stories and historic continuity, and c) that none of that will matter when it comes to this show which seems to be pretty self-contained in its own universe, with the possible exception of eventually naming Xavier as David's dad.
posted by sardonyx at 11:51 AM on March 17, 2017
When everybody first started speculating about the Shadow King, I wasted some time trying to remember if it was the Shadow King who was after Maddie and Scott's baby during the initial X-Factor run. Then I realized that a) I was likely swapping one bad guy for another in my memory, b) that the story line I was attempting to recall was one of those overly complicated, needlessly messy X-Men plots that end up sprawling all over every title available and wrecking havoc with ongoing stories and historic continuity, and c) that none of that will matter when it comes to this show which seems to be pretty self-contained in its own universe, with the possible exception of eventually naming Xavier as David's dad.
posted by sardonyx at 11:51 AM on March 17, 2017
Unless they really run with self-contained and spell Xavier O-l-i-v-e-r
posted by kokaku at 12:29 PM on March 17, 2017
posted by kokaku at 12:29 PM on March 17, 2017
In the books, he had a body, which was killed by Xavier.
The first time I saw the Devil with Yellow Eyes, I thought he looked like Amahl Farouk, the Shadow King's first host in the comics.
posted by homunculus at 4:50 PM on March 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
The first time I saw the Devil with Yellow Eyes, I thought he looked like Amahl Farouk, the Shadow King's first host in the comics.
posted by homunculus at 4:50 PM on March 18, 2017 [2 favorites]
The alternate promo yt for episode 7 explicitly named the Shadow King
Well, there it is.
posted by homunculus at 4:52 PM on March 18, 2017
Well, there it is.
posted by homunculus at 4:52 PM on March 18, 2017
LOVED that his dad was bald in the animated fight scene.
I am more and more convinced that Season two will be about the creation of Summerland. Particularly with the Interrogator showing up with the cloudy eye in the last scene. That guy is getting sent back in time to become the Eye, because David can do anything.
And it's going to have Coffee a Go-Go.
posted by politikitty at 10:22 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am more and more convinced that Season two will be about the creation of Summerland. Particularly with the Interrogator showing up with the cloudy eye in the last scene. That guy is getting sent back in time to become the Eye, because David can do anything.
And it's going to have Coffee a Go-Go.
posted by politikitty at 10:22 AM on March 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
On rewatching ep7, I'm wondering if the brief glimpse of the X-wheel when they're talking about David being dropped off for adoption is a fake-out. Everyone who knows the comic assumes that David's dad is Xavier and the X-wheel was the wheelchair. What if it's not being played that way in the show? Maybe the X-wheel is from the car that dropped off David (stylin' rims). I'm guessing at a backstory played out in season 2 explaining Oliver, Cary, and Melanie's fight against Farouk.
posted by kokaku at 8:57 AM on March 27, 2017
posted by kokaku at 8:57 AM on March 27, 2017
I'm really hoping Mojo enters the show somehow. He's one of my favorite comic book villains, and I think that Hawley would do a really good job with him.
posted by codacorolla at 8:30 PM on March 28, 2017
posted by codacorolla at 8:30 PM on March 28, 2017
Also, I haven't read any Legion books, but I just thought of something: I'd been taking all of the voices in David's head to be just random psychic interference, but what if they're the (for lack of a better word) 'souls' of the people who died when he went Nuclear at The Incident At Red Hook? I know in the comics that's an aspect of the character's power.
posted by codacorolla at 8:36 PM on March 28, 2017
posted by codacorolla at 8:36 PM on March 28, 2017
I'm really wondering where they go with season two that isn't a retread of the same thing, it's going to be a tricky needle to thread because so much of what's been compelling about this season has been so firmly rooted in this specific conflict with Shadow King and a rehash of that would be disappointing. I bet we come out of this with the realization that a lot of the bad things David has done aren't fake memories and can't be attributed to Shadow King's influence, that he really does have a very dark side of his own, but everyone including David will think that he's in control and on the side of the angels when the parasite's gone. Melanie still wants to use him for the war, and he'll be sorely tempted to put the world right thinking he's got a handle on it. I bet there's a messiah complex in his future.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:07 PM on March 28, 2017
posted by jason_steakums at 10:07 PM on March 28, 2017
I keep wondering just how many foot soldiers d3 has for David to churn through. I mean recruiting gets tough when the rumor is that the previous units got vaporized by a mutant badass.
posted by kokaku at 11:19 AM on March 29, 2017
posted by kokaku at 11:19 AM on March 29, 2017
I'm anxious about the idea of showing us the war, which I think is why I'm hoping Hawley keeps this as an anthology series like Fargo. I thought the weakest scene was the escape at the end of the pilot. I liked that it was relatively short, but the special effects were a bit too much of the action comic book we've already seen.
I loved that the D3 showdown happened off panel. Walking up on the aftermath was way more powerful, especially since it highlighted the uncertainty the summerland crew and audience are feeling about David's moral compass.
I don't want to enter the realm of constantly upping the stakes. The Powered Arms Race is hard to preserve, especially when you're starting with the world's strongest mutant, and an anthology set up would nip it in the bud and let us go back to gorgeous retelling of mutants.
posted by politikitty at 12:38 PM on March 29, 2017
I loved that the D3 showdown happened off panel. Walking up on the aftermath was way more powerful, especially since it highlighted the uncertainty the summerland crew and audience are feeling about David's moral compass.
I don't want to enter the realm of constantly upping the stakes. The Powered Arms Race is hard to preserve, especially when you're starting with the world's strongest mutant, and an anthology set up would nip it in the bud and let us go back to gorgeous retelling of mutants.
posted by politikitty at 12:38 PM on March 29, 2017
If it were to be an anthology series, Hawley would have to do Peter David's mid-2000s Madrox miniseries as part of it. A neo-noir detective series with themes of identity and death and control that requires a Tatiana Maslany level actor would be incredible under Hawley. It just hits a lot of his specific strong points.
posted by jason_steakums at 3:47 PM on March 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 3:47 PM on March 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
That extra ending felt a lot like Mojo to me. Can anyone recommend an omnibus collection that has a good Mojo storyline in it?
posted by codacorolla at 8:13 PM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by codacorolla at 8:13 PM on March 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yes, codacorolla, Mojo is exactly what I thought on seeing the orb. Shit's gonna get even weirder.
posted by Gaz Errant at 11:42 PM on March 29, 2017
posted by Gaz Errant at 11:42 PM on March 29, 2017
I'm really not a big Mojo fan, but... Hawley's penchant for weird fourth wall breaking intro narration on episodes and strange metaphorical visuals that may or may not actually happen in the world of the show but certainly happen on screen could really, really work well with Mojo.
There's a lot about Mojo that I'd be worried about coming across as cheesy even in Hawley's capable hands, but weirdly some of the more outlandish and silly things around Mojo could totally work under Hawley. Like, dude could make the X-Babies work, they'd be utterly creepy or hilarious or both, but I could totally see them working in a show like this.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:01 AM on March 30, 2017
There's a lot about Mojo that I'd be worried about coming across as cheesy even in Hawley's capable hands, but weirdly some of the more outlandish and silly things around Mojo could totally work under Hawley. Like, dude could make the X-Babies work, they'd be utterly creepy or hilarious or both, but I could totally see them working in a show like this.
posted by jason_steakums at 5:01 AM on March 30, 2017
I've had Mojo on the brain this entire season just because of Hawley's fixation on screens. Like those weird screens early on that looked like trampoline fabric stitched to metal frames, or the screen in the finale where it was just the head of Division 3 looking at one tiny one on a stand in a room full of people, or all the screens in Cary/Kerry's lab, etc. Screens everywhere. Very Mojo-esque.
oh jesus christ what if they brought in Longshot? I'd just shit.
posted by komara at 8:23 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
oh jesus christ what if they brought in Longshot? I'd just shit.
posted by komara at 8:23 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
[derail: I was never a huge Longshot fan until just recently. The four-issue miniseries Longshot Saves the Marvel Universe was just fantastic, a whole lot of fun, and won me over completely. It's that Longshot I'd like to see on the screen, and which I think would be an interesting and entertaining addition to this show.
I mean as long as we're getting weird with it.]
posted by komara at 8:39 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I mean as long as we're getting weird with it.]
posted by komara at 8:39 AM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
It went in such a different direction than I expected. Hopefully in a way that changes the stakes rather than upping the stakes.
I loved the backstory with Clark and his D3 husband. And diffusing the war so nonchalantly, we can have X-Factor, with Cary/Kerry being our Forge stand-in. I'm hoping we keep Oliver a relatively low level telepath, which would limit Farouk to being a Medium Bad, since it was David's powers that pushed him to Big Bad.
Mojo seems to be a decent guess. But I feel like their version of Farouk as Lenny has a lot of Mojo influence already. Other guesses are technet, warlock, or David's parents who finally feel it's safe or imperative to reach out.
I remember Lenny freaking out about not being able to find "it", which makes me think an Amazing Race is afoot for season two.
posted by politikitty at 1:37 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I loved the backstory with Clark and his D3 husband. And diffusing the war so nonchalantly, we can have X-Factor, with Cary/Kerry being our Forge stand-in. I'm hoping we keep Oliver a relatively low level telepath, which would limit Farouk to being a Medium Bad, since it was David's powers that pushed him to Big Bad.
Mojo seems to be a decent guess. But I feel like their version of Farouk as Lenny has a lot of Mojo influence already. Other guesses are technet, warlock, or David's parents who finally feel it's safe or imperative to reach out.
I remember Lenny freaking out about not being able to find "it", which makes me think an Amazing Race is afoot for season two.
posted by politikitty at 1:37 PM on March 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I'm a little curious why people seem so hyped to see Mojo, and are reading Mojo into EVERYTHING.
It made sense when there was a green tinted monster man with spindly fingers and a hundred chins but it seemed clear pretty soon that it was either the Shadow King or someone created just for the show.
I think the Mojoverse could be a good fit for this show. Lots of room to play with the different shows and the ideas of tv/reality/government/propaganda, etc, plus you can take the whole group completely out of their element, and it makes sense that they'd all be somewhere completely different together BUT it seems like more of a season3 concept than a season 2 one. First off, I think we need to know the personalities of thr group more before they can be really deeply tweaked again, and second, because taking them offworld kind of neutralizes Division 3 AND Oliver/The Shadow King.
I'll be positively thrilled if it's anything other than the action Division 3 kept threatening to deploy and completely shocked if it's Mojo.
posted by elr at 4:36 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
It made sense when there was a green tinted monster man with spindly fingers and a hundred chins but it seemed clear pretty soon that it was either the Shadow King or someone created just for the show.
I think the Mojoverse could be a good fit for this show. Lots of room to play with the different shows and the ideas of tv/reality/government/propaganda, etc, plus you can take the whole group completely out of their element, and it makes sense that they'd all be somewhere completely different together BUT it seems like more of a season3 concept than a season 2 one. First off, I think we need to know the personalities of thr group more before they can be really deeply tweaked again, and second, because taking them offworld kind of neutralizes Division 3 AND Oliver/The Shadow King.
I'll be positively thrilled if it's anything other than the action Division 3 kept threatening to deploy and completely shocked if it's Mojo.
posted by elr at 4:36 PM on April 1, 2017 [2 favorites]
Mojo would be a bit of a problem at this point- Two obese evil guys in a row? Hmm. On the other hand, if the major enemy was Spiral, reporting to an unseen boss, that might work. Maybe.
posted by happyroach at 2:55 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by happyroach at 2:55 AM on April 2, 2017 [1 favorite]
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Rewatching earlier eps: in the breakout in ep 1, who has fire powers? Everyone there had other powers accounted for:
* Syd's body swap
* Ptonomy's memory work
* a telekinetic who sent people flying
* and David
posted by Pronoiac at 4:53 PM on March 5, 2017