Avengers: Infinity War (2018)
April 24, 2018 10:52 PM - Subscribe
Iron Man, Thor, the Hulk and the rest of the Avengers unite to battle their most powerful enemy yet -- the evil Thanos. On a mission to collect all six Infinity Stones, Thanos plans to use the artifacts to inflict his twisted will on reality. The fate of the planet and existence itself has never been more uncertain as everything the Avengers have fought for has led up to this moment.
Washington Post: Avengers: Infinity War’ is stunningly dark. But it’s still wildly entertaining.
LA Times: Avengers: Infinity War," a movie with a cliffhanger, a body count and some pretty great one-liners where its Soul Stone should be.
Variety: "A knowingly overstuffed Marvel mashup turns out to be bedazzling fun, despite the fact that this many superheroes means they're all less special."
Washington Post: Avengers: Infinity War’ is stunningly dark. But it’s still wildly entertaining.
LA Times: Avengers: Infinity War," a movie with a cliffhanger, a body count and some pretty great one-liners where its Soul Stone should be.
Variety: "A knowingly overstuffed Marvel mashup turns out to be bedazzling fun, despite the fact that this many superheroes means they're all less special."
So, just got out. Lots to like and lots to dislike in this one - fitting I suppose as it's incredibly long.
Spoilers ahoy, folks, avert ye gazes.
The entire Marvel line up bar Ant Man got good coverage, and I enjoyed many of the jokes and bantering. Thor is a surprisingly good fit with the Guardians.
Special effects were mostly great - some of the planetscapes are just beautiful I wish the camera had paused on them a little longer. When the effects didn't work they really stood out because it was relatively rare (Banner CGI'd in a scene towards the end looked terrible). Thanos himself mostly looked terrific, which was a real surprise for me, as I thought it's look a bit insubstantial but they did great. Would love to know if any of it was Brolin's actual face.
The costumes are so much better than the weird cluttered DC-verse costumes, so I detected some edging into Liefeld territory (Black Widow is growing pouches like breeding rabbits).
Despite the epic running time, the movie didn't really stall out too often - though there was some areas I think where emphasis was misplaced - Thor's side trip to make an axe was completely unnecessary, should have been cut. Acting was all fine.
MAJOR spoilers ahead.
HOWEVER - the ending. I get what they were going for; it's super comic-y. But I didn't think it worked at all. Finishing on massive cliffhanger that is also a really big downer is not a good way to leave people as they walk out of a cinema. Fans of Marvel will get the set up here, but most people will be thinking WTF and not in a good way.
Also, a conclusion like this essentially makes everything that comes before it meaningless. The WORST thing about comics is the eternal retconning and a sense that nothing really matters, and I have no idea why they would want to take up something like that here. It also made me retrospectively get shittier at some of the dumber plotting - not once, but several times in this movie do characters ("heroes" for god's sake) put their personal relationships of feelings above the fact Thanos will kill 3 billion people, what the hell?
- Scarlet Witch should have offed Vision literally the first chance she had.
- Peter Quill should not have slapped Thanos in the face repeatedly, what a fucking moron.
- Strange should not have given Thanos the time stone, yeah yeah I know why he did it, but it was never explained to the audience so comes across as uber stupid.
- Wakanda needs to invest a little bit more in some kind of military strategy, that fight was a stupid joke, why would they fight like that?? Don't they have any missiles FFS? It was just empty spectable Black Panther needlessly killed hundreds or thousands of his own people to *maybe* save Vision's life. Fuck that.
The avengers in general desperately need to do some kind of risk assessment course to sort out their priorities.
The ending left a bitter taste in my mouth, echoing my least favourite part of comics. I can see they wanted to make it a two hander, should have called it part 1.
Where would I put it? In the middle of then pantheon I suppose. Certainly better than the illogical and moribund Age of Ultron; doesn't get close to the strongest entries in the series like Winter Soldier (for me).
posted by smoke at 11:07 PM on April 24, 2018 [24 favorites]
Spoilers ahoy, folks, avert ye gazes.
The entire Marvel line up bar Ant Man got good coverage, and I enjoyed many of the jokes and bantering. Thor is a surprisingly good fit with the Guardians.
Special effects were mostly great - some of the planetscapes are just beautiful I wish the camera had paused on them a little longer. When the effects didn't work they really stood out because it was relatively rare (Banner CGI'd in a scene towards the end looked terrible). Thanos himself mostly looked terrific, which was a real surprise for me, as I thought it's look a bit insubstantial but they did great. Would love to know if any of it was Brolin's actual face.
The costumes are so much better than the weird cluttered DC-verse costumes, so I detected some edging into Liefeld territory (Black Widow is growing pouches like breeding rabbits).
Despite the epic running time, the movie didn't really stall out too often - though there was some areas I think where emphasis was misplaced - Thor's side trip to make an axe was completely unnecessary, should have been cut. Acting was all fine.
MAJOR spoilers ahead.
HOWEVER - the ending. I get what they were going for; it's super comic-y. But I didn't think it worked at all. Finishing on massive cliffhanger that is also a really big downer is not a good way to leave people as they walk out of a cinema. Fans of Marvel will get the set up here, but most people will be thinking WTF and not in a good way.
Also, a conclusion like this essentially makes everything that comes before it meaningless. The WORST thing about comics is the eternal retconning and a sense that nothing really matters, and I have no idea why they would want to take up something like that here. It also made me retrospectively get shittier at some of the dumber plotting - not once, but several times in this movie do characters ("heroes" for god's sake) put their personal relationships of feelings above the fact Thanos will kill 3 billion people, what the hell?
- Scarlet Witch should have offed Vision literally the first chance she had.
- Peter Quill should not have slapped Thanos in the face repeatedly, what a fucking moron.
- Strange should not have given Thanos the time stone, yeah yeah I know why he did it, but it was never explained to the audience so comes across as uber stupid.
- Wakanda needs to invest a little bit more in some kind of military strategy, that fight was a stupid joke, why would they fight like that?? Don't they have any missiles FFS? It was just empty spectable Black Panther needlessly killed hundreds or thousands of his own people to *maybe* save Vision's life. Fuck that.
The avengers in general desperately need to do some kind of risk assessment course to sort out their priorities.
The ending left a bitter taste in my mouth, echoing my least favourite part of comics. I can see they wanted to make it a two hander, should have called it part 1.
Where would I put it? In the middle of then pantheon I suppose. Certainly better than the illogical and moribund Age of Ultron; doesn't get close to the strongest entries in the series like Winter Soldier (for me).
posted by smoke at 11:07 PM on April 24, 2018 [24 favorites]
Oh and also I remain unconvinced by Cumberbatch as Strange. Hilariously, I don't think he's really Strange enough.
posted by smoke at 11:10 PM on April 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by smoke at 11:10 PM on April 24, 2018 [11 favorites]
Gonna say more but I really really liked it. Especially the ending, lololol.
posted by cendawanita at 12:25 AM on April 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:25 AM on April 25, 2018 [6 favorites]
Oh yeah, there is a bit with the New York battle that got me going, I'm so glad whedon is not directing
posted by cendawanita at 12:26 AM on April 25, 2018
posted by cendawanita at 12:26 AM on April 25, 2018
I can see they wanted to make it a two hander, should have called it part 1.
I really enjoyed the film but here's where Marvel/Disney actually fucked up. Originally they did announce this film and the next as Infinity War, Part 1 and Part 2. Then they backtracked on that. Imagine if we'd come out of this not knowing if/when there would be another Avengers film?!
Somehow, they've otherwise done a good job of not giving too much of the game away with upcoming films. Antman & Wasp might tie in or might be set before this. Captain Marvel is set-up in the post-credits sequence, so will deal with the fallout of this. And next year's Avengers will essentially be Part 2 and fix everything, if all of comic history is anything to go by.
But I guess we know why they haven't announced another Spidey or Black Panther film yet. Just to keep us on our toes.
posted by crossoverman at 3:52 AM on April 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
I really enjoyed the film but here's where Marvel/Disney actually fucked up. Originally they did announce this film and the next as Infinity War, Part 1 and Part 2. Then they backtracked on that. Imagine if we'd come out of this not knowing if/when there would be another Avengers film?!
Somehow, they've otherwise done a good job of not giving too much of the game away with upcoming films. Antman & Wasp might tie in or might be set before this. Captain Marvel is set-up in the post-credits sequence, so will deal with the fallout of this. And next year's Avengers will essentially be Part 2 and fix everything, if all of comic history is anything to go by.
But I guess we know why they haven't announced another Spidey or Black Panther film yet. Just to keep us on our toes.
posted by crossoverman at 3:52 AM on April 25, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh wait, Captain Marvel is set in the 90s and Antman and the Wasp is set before Infinity War, so there's really nothing happening in the MCU until the next Avengers film.
posted by crossoverman at 4:35 AM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 4:35 AM on April 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
can see they wanted to make it a two hander
Speaking as a representative of the League of Tiresome Pedants, I need to point out that a two hander is a play or other dramatic production with two characters in it. Kind of the opposite of this film.
posted by Grangousier at 5:54 AM on April 25, 2018 [25 favorites]
Speaking as a representative of the League of Tiresome Pedants, I need to point out that a two hander is a play or other dramatic production with two characters in it. Kind of the opposite of this film.
posted by Grangousier at 5:54 AM on April 25, 2018 [25 favorites]
Metafilter: League of Tiresome Pedants
posted by sammyo at 9:24 AM on April 25, 2018 [92 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 9:24 AM on April 25, 2018 [92 favorites]
> Metafilter: League of Tiresome Pedants
You win. We don't need another one of these, this is the final word. Hats off to you friend, you won Metafilter.
I am very excited for this movie but I did a dumb thing and got my wife pregnant and that baby was born a month ago and damn if it isn't hard to get people to watch a baby for for three-ish hours. So I'm here to live vicariously through you all.
posted by Tevin at 11:33 AM on April 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
You win. We don't need another one of these, this is the final word. Hats off to you friend, you won Metafilter.
I am very excited for this movie but I did a dumb thing and got my wife pregnant and that baby was born a month ago and damn if it isn't hard to get people to watch a baby for for three-ish hours. So I'm here to live vicariously through you all.
posted by Tevin at 11:33 AM on April 25, 2018 [10 favorites]
Wait, who wins, Grangousier or me or both? I mean, cool, never won at the internet before, is there a prize?
Oh and congrats on the new person, get some sleep, well in a few months.
posted by sammyo at 6:31 AM on April 26, 2018
Oh and congrats on the new person, get some sleep, well in a few months.
posted by sammyo at 6:31 AM on April 26, 2018
Ju saw it and I mamaged to avoid all spoilers beforehand, and I am shook.
That film pummeld me right in the Feels.
posted by Faintdreams at 10:56 AM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
That film pummeld me right in the Feels.
posted by Faintdreams at 10:56 AM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
In tennis a two-hander is a shot taken with both hands on the racket, and this film is not tennis.
posted by maxsparber at 11:48 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by maxsparber at 11:48 AM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
It's a serve but I'm not sure where the ball has landed yet.
posted by crossoverman at 3:27 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by crossoverman at 3:27 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
I walked out with so many emotions, part WTF just happened, but also part that was really awesome.
SPOILER WARNING
Beanplating the ending: Could Thor's axe handle be used to restore Groot, or did Thor's axe handle also cease to exist too?
posted by cholly at 5:06 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
SPOILER WARNING
Beanplating the ending: Could Thor's axe handle be used to restore Groot, or did Thor's axe handle also cease to exist too?
posted by cholly at 5:06 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
SPOILER WARNING
I assume whatever magic trick brings everyone else back (save maybe Vision and the earlier casualties) will bring back Groot.
The ending: more like Avengers Disassemble.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:27 PM on April 26, 2018 [25 favorites]
I assume whatever magic trick brings everyone else back (save maybe Vision and the earlier casualties) will bring back Groot.
The ending: more like Avengers Disassemble.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:27 PM on April 26, 2018 [25 favorites]
I agree that Thor and the Guardians was surprisingly great (as always, I am here for Gratuitous Objectification of Thor and "noble rabbit" and its variants cracked me up every time). And yes, the Banner CGI at the end was laughably terrible.
I honestly felt that in such an overstuffed film Gamora and Thanos got waaaay too much time, time that maybe should've been doled out in a Guardians film.
The biggest ridiculous plot hole was why THEY DID NOT JUST CUT OFF THANOS'S ARM RATHER THAN TRY TO WRESTLE THE GODDAMN GAUNTLET OFF.
And the ending, with half of the Avengers and Wakanda and NYC getting dust-raptured? Meh. Doubly, because we know much of it won't stick, and it honestly just felt like Marvel playing it safe in case cast re-negotiations fall through. Oh, actor X doesn't want to re-up? Guess they don't get resurrected.
(And I'm really sad that already poor Hawkeye has been overlooked in this comment thread, lol).
posted by TwoStride at 8:10 PM on April 26, 2018 [12 favorites]
I honestly felt that in such an overstuffed film Gamora and Thanos got waaaay too much time, time that maybe should've been doled out in a Guardians film.
The biggest ridiculous plot hole was why THEY DID NOT JUST CUT OFF THANOS'S ARM RATHER THAN TRY TO WRESTLE THE GODDAMN GAUNTLET OFF.
And the ending, with half of the Avengers and Wakanda and NYC getting dust-raptured? Meh. Doubly, because we know much of it won't stick, and it honestly just felt like Marvel playing it safe in case cast re-negotiations fall through. Oh, actor X doesn't want to re-up? Guess they don't get resurrected.
(And I'm really sad that already poor Hawkeye has been overlooked in this comment thread, lol).
posted by TwoStride at 8:10 PM on April 26, 2018 [12 favorites]
The film largely lives up to the hype/excitement, mostly due to the portrayal of Thanos, which includes some incredibly good motion capture/special effects.
The balance is characters is fine and their interactions are great. The plot is simple, but not bad, and wisely doesn't spend a lot of time recapping anything.
The various deaths were at first shocking then very meh as you realize someone is going to come along and "fix" reality. Plus killing off Black Panther when we know there's a BP2 on the way doesn't make a whole lotta sense big picture. Which is an ongoing problem, due to the audience being very meta and aware of tropes of the genre, taking us out of the story, without adding much.
Best end teaser ever, with Samuel L Jackson's choice language. Kudos also to "Thanos will return".
The film was exceptionally humorous, all things considered. Perhaps too much so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:57 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
The balance is characters is fine and their interactions are great. The plot is simple, but not bad, and wisely doesn't spend a lot of time recapping anything.
The various deaths were at first shocking then very meh as you realize someone is going to come along and "fix" reality. Plus killing off Black Panther when we know there's a BP2 on the way doesn't make a whole lotta sense big picture. Which is an ongoing problem, due to the audience being very meta and aware of tropes of the genre, taking us out of the story, without adding much.
Best end teaser ever, with Samuel L Jackson's choice language. Kudos also to "Thanos will return".
The film was exceptionally humorous, all things considered. Perhaps too much so.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:57 PM on April 26, 2018 [4 favorites]
And yes, why didn't they try to cut off Thano's arm. That's a no-brainer. Might have worked, might not have, but the solution was shockingly obvious. Sure, we would have missed Starlord being on dude like and idiotic, but that would have been a positive, not a negative.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:01 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 9:01 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I loved the humor, and agree that Thanos was surprisingly compelling. I think it was a mix of terrific special effects work, a solid performance from Brolin, and a motive that seemed somewhat credible and relatable.
I was hoping for a lot of Thor and Dr. Strange, and not a lot of Cap and was not disappointed.
Also WTF happened to Nova Corps? 0/10, very bad work, guys.
posted by jeoc at 9:21 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I was hoping for a lot of Thor and Dr. Strange, and not a lot of Cap and was not disappointed.
Also WTF happened to Nova Corps? 0/10, very bad work, guys.
posted by jeoc at 9:21 PM on April 26, 2018 [3 favorites]
I dug it majorly. It played to the strengths of the different subfranchises (Thor and GotG funny, Doc Strange trippy, Tony and Peter bantery, BP and the Wakandans really fucking awesome, etc.), and Thanos was more impressive and scarier for being less of an asshole than he generally is in the comics. It's startling just how much more impressive everything and everyone was than the similarly-themed Justice League. (Although JL didn't have the advantage of their Big Bad; still, Steppenwolf as a stand-in could have been a lot better.) Yay Peter Dinklage; yay Red Skull (would have been cool to have gotten Hugo Weaving back, but oh well), yay stinger scene setting up Captain Marvel, because what's a big fucking Marvel cosmic movie without one?
My responses to some of the objections/questions in this thread:
- Scarlet Witch should have offed Vision literally the first chance she had.
Heroes sacrifice themselves, not other people. Plus, it's her boyfriend.
- Peter Quill should not have slapped Thanos in the face repeatedly, what a fucking moron.
Have you met Star-Lord?
- Strange should not have given Thanos the time stone, yeah yeah I know why he did it, but it was never explained to the audience so comes across as uber stupid.
Bwuh? He's already said that there's only one way out of umpteen million that they win. Presumably that will be addressed in Part II.
- Wakanda needs to invest a little bit more in some kind of military strategy, that fight was a stupid joke, why would they fight like that?? Don't they have any missiles FFS? It was just empty spectable Black Panther needlessly killed hundreds or thousands of his own people to *maybe* save Vision's life. Fuck that.
Because Rule of Cool, that's why. Plus, missiles probably would have brought down the barrier, which is the only thing keeping the zerg rush from Wakanda's civilians. They needed precise bombing runs, which War Machine provided, as well as the Wakanda Air Force. Double plus, these are aliens with alien weapons, and how do you plan for that?
why THEY DID NOT JUST CUT OFF THANOS'S ARM RATHER THAN TRY TO WRESTLE THE GODDAMN GAUNTLET OFF.
Did I miss the part where they found the Cosmic Chainsaw? I'm guessing that Thanos was pretty tough to begin with--he can handle Infinity Stones single-handedly, which otherwise tends to disintegrate people--and by that point he had most of the stones.
And the ending, with half of the Avengers and Wakanda and NYC getting dust-raptured? Meh. Doubly, because we know much of it won't stick, and it honestly just felt like Marvel playing it safe in case cast re-negotiations fall through. Oh, actor X doesn't want to re-up? Guess they don't get resurrected.
Chris Evans has already said that he's out when his contract is up, and Cap lived. My guess is that they'll use Part II to test out some new heroes and set up the next phase of the MCU; that may or may not involve some of the legacy characters being really dead, or just retiring a la Hank Pym. I think that we'll get to see not just Captain Marvel, but Nova (not necessarily the whole Corps; I'd guess that they get wiped out trying to avenge their planet with Thanos, and that sets up the Earth hero's origin), and Adam Warlock. And I do think that the Gauntlet will serve as a big reset button, but I wonder who, if anyone, will remember that 50% of everyone will be dead.
And what about Hawkeye? Maybe we'll get Kate Bishop after all.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:58 PM on April 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
My responses to some of the objections/questions in this thread:
- Scarlet Witch should have offed Vision literally the first chance she had.
Heroes sacrifice themselves, not other people. Plus, it's her boyfriend.
- Peter Quill should not have slapped Thanos in the face repeatedly, what a fucking moron.
Have you met Star-Lord?
- Strange should not have given Thanos the time stone, yeah yeah I know why he did it, but it was never explained to the audience so comes across as uber stupid.
Bwuh? He's already said that there's only one way out of umpteen million that they win. Presumably that will be addressed in Part II.
- Wakanda needs to invest a little bit more in some kind of military strategy, that fight was a stupid joke, why would they fight like that?? Don't they have any missiles FFS? It was just empty spectable Black Panther needlessly killed hundreds or thousands of his own people to *maybe* save Vision's life. Fuck that.
Because Rule of Cool, that's why. Plus, missiles probably would have brought down the barrier, which is the only thing keeping the zerg rush from Wakanda's civilians. They needed precise bombing runs, which War Machine provided, as well as the Wakanda Air Force. Double plus, these are aliens with alien weapons, and how do you plan for that?
why THEY DID NOT JUST CUT OFF THANOS'S ARM RATHER THAN TRY TO WRESTLE THE GODDAMN GAUNTLET OFF.
Did I miss the part where they found the Cosmic Chainsaw? I'm guessing that Thanos was pretty tough to begin with--he can handle Infinity Stones single-handedly, which otherwise tends to disintegrate people--and by that point he had most of the stones.
And the ending, with half of the Avengers and Wakanda and NYC getting dust-raptured? Meh. Doubly, because we know much of it won't stick, and it honestly just felt like Marvel playing it safe in case cast re-negotiations fall through. Oh, actor X doesn't want to re-up? Guess they don't get resurrected.
Chris Evans has already said that he's out when his contract is up, and Cap lived. My guess is that they'll use Part II to test out some new heroes and set up the next phase of the MCU; that may or may not involve some of the legacy characters being really dead, or just retiring a la Hank Pym. I think that we'll get to see not just Captain Marvel, but Nova (not necessarily the whole Corps; I'd guess that they get wiped out trying to avenge their planet with Thanos, and that sets up the Earth hero's origin), and Adam Warlock. And I do think that the Gauntlet will serve as a big reset button, but I wonder who, if anyone, will remember that 50% of everyone will be dead.
And what about Hawkeye? Maybe we'll get Kate Bishop after all.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:58 PM on April 26, 2018 [14 favorites]
why THEY DID NOT JUST CUT OFF THANOS'S ARM RATHER THAN TRY TO WRESTLE THE GODDAMN GAUNTLET OFF.
Did I miss the part where they found the Cosmic Chainsaw? I'm guessing that Thanos was pretty tough to begin with--he can handle Infinity Stones single-handedly, which otherwise tends to disintegrate people--and by that point he had most of the stones
I mean, people seemed to have some success with stabbing at him, and it still seems likelier than just tugging on his fist really hard.
posted by TwoStride at 10:11 PM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
Did I miss the part where they found the Cosmic Chainsaw? I'm guessing that Thanos was pretty tough to begin with--he can handle Infinity Stones single-handedly, which otherwise tends to disintegrate people--and by that point he had most of the stones
I mean, people seemed to have some success with stabbing at him, and it still seems likelier than just tugging on his fist really hard.
posted by TwoStride at 10:11 PM on April 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
I think that Stormbreaker could have done it, but unfortunately Thor went for the center mass.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:13 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:13 PM on April 26, 2018 [11 favorites]
Were those dog soldier things which attacked Wakanda symbiote type beasties?
posted by gnuhavenpier at 10:37 PM on April 26, 2018
posted by gnuhavenpier at 10:37 PM on April 26, 2018
That was Peter Dinklage's biggest role ever!
posted by Pronoiac at 10:55 PM on April 26, 2018 [57 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 10:55 PM on April 26, 2018 [57 favorites]
I sent the first 10 minutes reeling that all the wonder that was Ragnarok is now gone. I know they needed to raise the stakes quickly but it felt so vicious.
posted by hfnuala at 11:14 PM on April 26, 2018 [23 favorites]
posted by hfnuala at 11:14 PM on April 26, 2018 [23 favorites]
I didn't spot the Arrested Development cameo at the time.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:18 PM on April 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 11:18 PM on April 26, 2018 [10 favorites]
why THEY DID NOT JUST CUT OFF THANOS'S ARM RATHER THAN TRY TO WRESTLE THE GODDAMN GAUNTLET OFF.
It wasn't a bad plan, they just overlooked one thing: Thanos doesn't seem like the type of person that moisturizes. So they just had to give the Gauntlet the 'ole Curly treatment and it would have popped right off.
posted by FJT at 12:32 AM on April 27, 2018
It wasn't a bad plan, they just overlooked one thing: Thanos doesn't seem like the type of person that moisturizes. So they just had to give the Gauntlet the 'ole Curly treatment and it would have popped right off.
posted by FJT at 12:32 AM on April 27, 2018
How would making a V with your fingers and going for his eyes help?
posted by Pronoiac at 1:11 AM on April 27, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 1:11 AM on April 27, 2018 [18 favorites]
When they caused Thanos pain he broke out of Mantis' spell, so presumably Doctor Strange knew that he'd be able to do some reality stone shenanigans before they finished sawing all the way through his arm and thought that he'd be more compliant with the moderate discomfort of taking off a glove.
Differences from the comics: I'm a little disappointed that they took away Thanos' motivation from the comics, wherein he's an incel/mra type trying to be a dirtbag until a girl likes him, and also the girl is literally Death, The Grim Reaper. I'm also kind of impressed that they managed to turn his motivation and origin in a way where he's still the villain specifically because he doesn't like or respect or listen to the women in his life, and even though he loves them deeply in his childish way that only a poorly thought out machine could read as true love he just doesn't give a fuck about what they want or care about. He can't even hang up some curtains or get a nicer chair for fuck's sake.
I liked the parallels between Starlord/Gamora, Wanda/Vision, and much more loosely Thanos/Gamora, the very similar setups and the way the film drove home how much each sacrifice rated on the heroic/dumb/pointless scale. I sort of wish this movie was ten hours long so it could've gone into what all of the other characters are sacrificing and why, explore Tony and Pepper's thoughts on parenting, what the fuck is wrong with Ebony Maw, all of that, but the glory of being in the MCU is that oh yeah we already got a movie about what Spider-man is willing to sacrifice last year and it kicked ass.
I got spoiled on Dinklage but it was even better than I expected and hearing everyone in the theater slowly realize what they were looking at was glorious. I did not get spoiled on Red Skull although I'd hoped something like that would happen some day, and hearing about 2/3rds of the audience suddenly realize what was happening was great. Easily the best part of that scene.
Farmer Thanos was on my impossible dream stretch goal wishlist of shit I wanted to see in the film and the last shot gave it to me but oh my god, not like this.
posted by fomhar at 1:19 AM on April 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
Differences from the comics: I'm a little disappointed that they took away Thanos' motivation from the comics, wherein he's an incel/mra type trying to be a dirtbag until a girl likes him, and also the girl is literally Death, The Grim Reaper. I'm also kind of impressed that they managed to turn his motivation and origin in a way where he's still the villain specifically because he doesn't like or respect or listen to the women in his life, and even though he loves them deeply in his childish way that only a poorly thought out machine could read as true love he just doesn't give a fuck about what they want or care about. He can't even hang up some curtains or get a nicer chair for fuck's sake.
_and_Death_(Earth-616)_from_Thanos_Rising_Vol_1_4_001.jpg){kind=link}
I liked the parallels between Starlord/Gamora, Wanda/Vision, and much more loosely Thanos/Gamora, the very similar setups and the way the film drove home how much each sacrifice rated on the heroic/dumb/pointless scale. I sort of wish this movie was ten hours long so it could've gone into what all of the other characters are sacrificing and why, explore Tony and Pepper's thoughts on parenting, what the fuck is wrong with Ebony Maw, all of that, but the glory of being in the MCU is that oh yeah we already got a movie about what Spider-man is willing to sacrifice last year and it kicked ass.
I got spoiled on Dinklage but it was even better than I expected and hearing everyone in the theater slowly realize what they were looking at was glorious. I did not get spoiled on Red Skull although I'd hoped something like that would happen some day, and hearing about 2/3rds of the audience suddenly realize what was happening was great. Easily the best part of that scene.
Farmer Thanos was on my impossible dream stretch goal wishlist of shit I wanted to see in the film and the last shot gave it to me but oh my god, not like this.
posted by fomhar at 1:19 AM on April 27, 2018 [12 favorites]
Strange should not have given Thanos the time stone, yeah yeah I know why he did it, but it was never explained to the audience so comes across as uber stupid.
Strange literally said, I've looked at the future, there's exactly one possible way we win this. And then he tells Tony that giving Thanos the Time Stone was The Only Way. I don't know how that could possibly have been any more clear.
posted by straight at 1:39 AM on April 27, 2018 [53 favorites]
Strange literally said, I've looked at the future, there's exactly one possible way we win this. And then he tells Tony that giving Thanos the Time Stone was The Only Way. I don't know how that could possibly have been any more clear.
posted by straight at 1:39 AM on April 27, 2018 [53 favorites]
Black Panther needlessly killed hundreds or thousands of his own people to *maybe* save Vision's life. Fuck that.
I felt the same way at the time, that hundreds of Wakandans rushing to their death to save the life of that one guy was not a great look.
But from their point of view, they were just offering medical help to T'Challa's allies and then the nation was attacked and they rose to the Wakanda's defense. And I'll bet every single one of them would have spat in disgust at the idea of that they turn back this invasion not by their own might but by sacrificing the target for which the aliens had dared to invade Wakanda.
posted by straight at 1:44 AM on April 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
I felt the same way at the time, that hundreds of Wakandans rushing to their death to save the life of that one guy was not a great look.
But from their point of view, they were just offering medical help to T'Challa's allies and then the nation was attacked and they rose to the Wakanda's defense. And I'll bet every single one of them would have spat in disgust at the idea of that they turn back this invasion not by their own might but by sacrificing the target for which the aliens had dared to invade Wakanda.
posted by straight at 1:44 AM on April 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
it honestly just felt like Marvel playing it safe in case cast re-negotiations fall through. Oh, actor X doesn't want to re-up? Guess they don't get resurrected.
Except it was kind of the opposite. All six original Avengers (whose contracts are presumably the closest to expiring) survived the purge (or at least we don't know that Hawkeye is gone) and the people who disappeared -- Spider-Man, Strange, T'Challa, most of the Guardians -- are people who for sure have more movies coming up. Maybe Sam, Bucky, and Wanda fit that theory as characters who would be good candidates for replacing Steve and some of the other founders as central Avengers characters but who don't have anything definite in the pipeline yet after Avengers 4.
It seems more likely that most of the "surviving" Avengers will sacrifice themselves in the next movie to bring back everybody else.
posted by straight at 1:55 AM on April 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
Except it was kind of the opposite. All six original Avengers (whose contracts are presumably the closest to expiring) survived the purge (or at least we don't know that Hawkeye is gone) and the people who disappeared -- Spider-Man, Strange, T'Challa, most of the Guardians -- are people who for sure have more movies coming up. Maybe Sam, Bucky, and Wanda fit that theory as characters who would be good candidates for replacing Steve and some of the other founders as central Avengers characters but who don't have anything definite in the pipeline yet after Avengers 4.
It seems more likely that most of the "surviving" Avengers will sacrifice themselves in the next movie to bring back everybody else.
posted by straight at 1:55 AM on April 27, 2018 [19 favorites]
(I did cackle in delight of getting the authentic opening weekend experience of hearing a super nerdy dude explaining to his girlfriend on the way out: "Actually, in the comics, Thanos...")
posted by straight at 1:59 AM on April 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:59 AM on April 27, 2018 [10 favorites]
I was also kind of delighted that the traditional Marvel end card this time around read "Thanos will return." Brrr.
posted by straight at 2:00 AM on April 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by straight at 2:00 AM on April 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
My favourite beat in the whole movie was Gamora assuming that because Thanos was a cruel father he couldn't also love her so he had nothing to sacrifice.
It is just so dark about one of the ways parents can fuck up.
posted by hfnuala at 2:01 AM on April 27, 2018 [41 favorites]
It is just so dark about one of the ways parents can fuck up.
posted by hfnuala at 2:01 AM on April 27, 2018 [41 favorites]
Just came back from a midnight first showing on an IMAX screen. A couple of thoughts:
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 2:05 AM on April 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
- I'm really impressed on the work that has been done to develop Marvel villains, particularly of late. Killmonger and Thanos, while both evil, are also surprisingly sympathetic. (Or at the very least, their motivations can easily be understood). Thanos really does see the outcome his plan as ultimately reducing suffering. Moreover, he carries a reluctance to do so, even while being completely committed to his course of action. His final scene with Gamora was heartbreaking.
- When I heard that half of the movie was to be set in space and half on Earth I was worried that it was going to be a mish-mash of a plot, but it all hung together really well.
- The entire theatre was utterly silent during the final ten minutes of the movie, broken by the occasional, deeply shocked "No!" in response to the death of another hero.
- Similarly, everyone stayed through the entire credits. The stinger definitely confused people (I didn't recognise the symbol on the phone, and I'm guessing that about 80% of the audience was in the same boat), but word spread quickly. Mostly I think the theatre parted with a stunned feeling of "They can't possibly leave it there."
- I agree that the work on Banner's face during Hulk's refusal to emerge was visually the weakest part of the movie, but from a psychological perspective one of the most interesting aspects of the plot, in addition to hfnuala's excellent point above.
posted by Bora Horza Gobuchul at 2:05 AM on April 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
I'll be spontaneously crying while I remember Peter begging and pleading desperately as he disintegrates until i'm, oh, about eighty.
Anyway, Tom Holland is a good actor, damn him to hell.
posted by pseudonymph at 2:27 AM on April 27, 2018 [33 favorites]
Anyway, Tom Holland is a good actor, damn him to hell.
posted by pseudonymph at 2:27 AM on April 27, 2018 [33 favorites]
I have only just realised that Josh Brolin is in *both* Avengers Ininifty War and Deadpool 2, so I guess if the Deadpool rights ever do end up in the Disney/Marvel stable then one of those characters will have to be recast or killed off for good?
posted by Faintdreams at 4:54 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Faintdreams at 4:54 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
The death that stings the most from this movie is that of the concept of stakes in the MCU.
posted by tomorrowromance at 5:35 AM on April 27, 2018 [42 favorites]
posted by tomorrowromance at 5:35 AM on April 27, 2018 [42 favorites]
I am very excited for this movie but I did a dumb thing and got my wife pregnant and that baby was born a month ago and damn if it isn't hard to get people to watch a baby for for three-ish hours. So I'm here to live vicariously through you all.
One month? Can the baby sleep through loud noises for a few hours at a stretch?
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:26 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
One month? Can the baby sleep through loud noises for a few hours at a stretch?
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:26 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
That was pointless and awful and I wish I hadn’t spent all that time on it. A super cut of all the fun character interactions and amusing lines would have taken about 3 minutes, and then I could have done something productive or interesting with my evening.
posted by misfish at 7:37 AM on April 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by misfish at 7:37 AM on April 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
Holy shit.
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:55 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:55 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, the credits said they had the rights to use a character from Arrested Development but… what?
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:56 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 7:56 AM on April 27, 2018 [1 favorite]
Black Panther needlessly killed hundreds or thousands of his own people to *maybe* save Vision's life. Fuck that.
Makes sense though, he wasn't a colonizer.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:03 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Makes sense though, he wasn't a colonizer.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:03 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Before You Go See ‘Avengers: Infinity War,’ Here’s Everything You Need To Know About The Endless Love And Compassion Of Our Lord And Savior Jesus Christ [Clickhole]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:05 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:05 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, the credits said they had the rights to use a character from Arrested Development but… what?
Apparently Tobias, in Blue Man Group makeup and cutoffs, is in the background of the Collector scene, which is possibly the best easter egg ever.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:26 AM on April 27, 2018 [16 favorites]
Apparently Tobias, in Blue Man Group makeup and cutoffs, is in the background of the Collector scene, which is possibly the best easter egg ever.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:26 AM on April 27, 2018 [16 favorites]
Poor guy, I bet Tivan mistook him for a Kree.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:27 AM on April 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:27 AM on April 27, 2018 [9 favorites]
have only just realised that Josh Brolin is in *both* Avengers Ininifty War and Deadpool 2,
He's also Jonah Hex.
posted by maxsparber at 8:33 AM on April 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
He's also Jonah Hex.
posted by maxsparber at 8:33 AM on April 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
That was Peter Dinklage's biggest role ever!
It occurred to me while watching that the MCU version of Norse mythology simultaneously has Frost Giants that are roughly basketball-player sized, and Dwarves that are 30 feet tall. Size is relative, kids.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:36 AM on April 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
It occurred to me while watching that the MCU version of Norse mythology simultaneously has Frost Giants that are roughly basketball-player sized, and Dwarves that are 30 feet tall. Size is relative, kids.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:36 AM on April 27, 2018 [13 favorites]
I have only just realised that Josh Brolin is in *both* Avengers Ininifty War and Deadpool 2, so I guess if the Deadpool rights ever do end up in the Disney/Marvel stable then one of those characters will have to be recast or killed off for good?
I can only hope that Deadpool will use the Continuity Stone to put all this right.
Honestly, I don't know how the schedule lines up with the handover of the Fox Marvel properties (X-Men, Deadpool, even the poor Fantastic Four) to Disney, but I will note that the shakeup produced by Thanos and its inevitable undoing would seem the ideal way to work the Fox characters into the MCU. FWIW, there seems to be only one Fox Marvel film (The New Mutants) already in production scheduled for release beyond the next Avengers movie.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:41 AM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I can only hope that Deadpool will use the Continuity Stone to put all this right.
Honestly, I don't know how the schedule lines up with the handover of the Fox Marvel properties (X-Men, Deadpool, even the poor Fantastic Four) to Disney, but I will note that the shakeup produced by Thanos and its inevitable undoing would seem the ideal way to work the Fox characters into the MCU. FWIW, there seems to be only one Fox Marvel film (The New Mutants) already in production scheduled for release beyond the next Avengers movie.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:41 AM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
I will note that the shakeup produced by Thanos and its inevitable undoing would seem the ideal way to work the Fox characters into the MCU.
I've had much the same thought--that if someone grabs the Infinity Gauntlet in Avengers IV and makes things right, they could also take the opportunity to fix a few things (Sinbad did do a Shazam movie, after all!), and the stinger scene would be Tony (or whoever's left and in charge of the Avengers) getting a phone call from someone with a British accent who offers their help if it's needed in the future... cut to the other end of the call, where a bald James McAvoy hangs up and scoots away in a wheelchair.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:11 AM on April 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
I've had much the same thought--that if someone grabs the Infinity Gauntlet in Avengers IV and makes things right, they could also take the opportunity to fix a few things (Sinbad did do a Shazam movie, after all!), and the stinger scene would be Tony (or whoever's left and in charge of the Avengers) getting a phone call from someone with a British accent who offers their help if it's needed in the future... cut to the other end of the call, where a bald James McAvoy hangs up and scoots away in a wheelchair.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:11 AM on April 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Is this the only Marvel movie to end without one of those animated credits sequences that shows glimpses of the movie or allusions to the characters in order to remind you of how cool it all was and (they hope) convince you that you liked it?
posted by straight at 9:49 AM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by straight at 9:49 AM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
getting a phone call from someone with a British accent who offers their help if it's needed in the future
The ballsy way to do it would be Stark thanking Xavier for yet again helping out the Avengers and McAvoy making some wry comment about humans and mutants working together and Logan trying to be on two teams at once before you pan back to see Wolverine standing next to Ben Grimm and all the other Avengers.
posted by straight at 9:56 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
The ballsy way to do it would be Stark thanking Xavier for yet again helping out the Avengers and McAvoy making some wry comment about humans and mutants working together and Logan trying to be on two teams at once before you pan back to see Wolverine standing next to Ben Grimm and all the other Avengers.
posted by straight at 9:56 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, I was disappoint that there was no Korg, but I can see that his light tone would be like a whoopee cushion at a funeral in this movie. That said, I derive some joy from the note on the MCU wiki page that
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:26 AM on April 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
Kevin Feige stated that Korg and Miek will return in the Marvel Cinematic Universe after Thor: Ragnarok, and he also discussed about a One-Shot about the two characters with Waititi.Yay.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 10:26 AM on April 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
I can only hope that Deadpool will use the Continuity Stone to put all this right.
He'll probably get confused and look up Emma and Sharon.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:33 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
He'll probably get confused and look up Emma and Sharon.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:33 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Hulk's refusal to emerge was visually the weakest part of the movie, but from a psychological perspective one of the most interesting aspects of the plot
I love Ruffalo but I missed having the Hulk in this movie. I assume he's basically just scared of Thanos because they've been portraying him more like a child than a monster (especially in Ragnarok). I would have liked to see him and Groot together.
The MCU has basically been dunking on the Hulk since the first Avengers movie. Iron Man kicked his ass in Avengers 2. Thor soundly defeated him in the Ragnarok arena until the Grandmaster cheated. And then Thanos wipes the floor with him using at most one Infinity Stone (did the Power Gem even glow purple during that fight?) He's not got a very good case for boasting that Hulk is the strongest one there is. Have they even mentioned his comic book superpower of (without limit) getting stronger the angrier he is?
posted by straight at 11:02 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I love Ruffalo but I missed having the Hulk in this movie. I assume he's basically just scared of Thanos because they've been portraying him more like a child than a monster (especially in Ragnarok). I would have liked to see him and Groot together.
The MCU has basically been dunking on the Hulk since the first Avengers movie. Iron Man kicked his ass in Avengers 2. Thor soundly defeated him in the Ragnarok arena until the Grandmaster cheated. And then Thanos wipes the floor with him using at most one Infinity Stone (did the Power Gem even glow purple during that fight?) He's not got a very good case for boasting that Hulk is the strongest one there is. Have they even mentioned his comic book superpower of (without limit) getting stronger the angrier he is?
posted by straight at 11:02 AM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Spoilers ahead:
The entire theatre was utterly silent during the final ten minutes of the movie, broken by the occasional, deeply shocked "No!" in response to the death of another hero.
Same. A lot of people in our theater sobbed aloud when Peter clutched Tony and pleaded that he didn't want to die.
My son, who didn't want to come with me last night because he thought the film would be too scary, asked me to take him to the see it this morning. He loves Spider-Man. I know he won't be able to get through that scene without crying. It was so hard to watch.
Similarly, everyone stayed through the entire credits.
Nobody moved in the theater I was in, too.
The stinger definitely confused people (I didn't recognise the symbol on the phone, and I'm guessing that about 80% of the audience was in the same boat), but word spread quickly.
A big cheer from one guy in the back in our theater when it came on screen: "YES! THAT'S RIGHT! HE'S PAGING MS. MARVEL, MOTHER FUCKERS!"
At which the entire theater broke their shocked silence with laughter.
posted by zarq at 11:09 AM on April 27, 2018 [43 favorites]
The entire theatre was utterly silent during the final ten minutes of the movie, broken by the occasional, deeply shocked "No!" in response to the death of another hero.
Same. A lot of people in our theater sobbed aloud when Peter clutched Tony and pleaded that he didn't want to die.
My son, who didn't want to come with me last night because he thought the film would be too scary, asked me to take him to the see it this morning. He loves Spider-Man. I know he won't be able to get through that scene without crying. It was so hard to watch.
Similarly, everyone stayed through the entire credits.
Nobody moved in the theater I was in, too.
The stinger definitely confused people (I didn't recognise the symbol on the phone, and I'm guessing that about 80% of the audience was in the same boat), but word spread quickly.
A big cheer from one guy in the back in our theater when it came on screen: "YES! THAT'S RIGHT! HE'S PAGING MS. MARVEL, MOTHER FUCKERS!"
At which the entire theater broke their shocked silence with laughter.
posted by zarq at 11:09 AM on April 27, 2018 [43 favorites]
Ok, I thought it was pretty obvious once they killed Peter that Thanos just introduced the MCU to the multiverse.
So everyone who disappeared are now in the new Fox/Marvel universe with mutants, while your expensive originals are stuck in MCU-Prime. By reversing the deaths, you get a nice send off of all your beloved characters still alive somewhere.
No need for a sequel, which was just a giant fake-out.
posted by politikitty at 11:09 AM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
So everyone who disappeared are now in the new Fox/Marvel universe with mutants, while your expensive originals are stuck in MCU-Prime. By reversing the deaths, you get a nice send off of all your beloved characters still alive somewhere.
No need for a sequel, which was just a giant fake-out.
posted by politikitty at 11:09 AM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Other combinations I would have liked to see and hope we still might get in Avengers 4: Shuri and Rocket taking turns making condescending comments to Stark about his primitive technology. Steve and Stephen (I'd like to see Strange being surprised to meet someone he actually respects.) Mantis accidentally revealing something about Natasha's feelings. Or Banner's. (Not necessarily about each other though.) Drax and the Hulk. Gamora and...crap. Are they going to undo all the deaths in this one? Roll them back all the way to Heimdall and Loki? I also wanted to see Loki in Wakanda. I also would have liked to see Hawkeye's reaction to Yondu's smart arrow. I hope Star Lord makes it back to Earth.
Matchups I liked in this one: Peter and Peter talking about Footloose. Chris and Chris competing for alpha male dominance. (Chris and Chris comparing beards.) Tony and Stephen was good, of course, but I especially liked Tony snarking with Peter about how crazy everything was ("They're here to steal a magic necklace from a wizard.") Drax worshiping Thor like a Viking (Bautista was one of the funniest things in he whole movie. His "stealth" scene was amazing).
It's a shame RDJ has to be the MCU smartass. Canonically, Spider-Man should be the one making fun of "Star Lord." It's weird that Spidey's not even in the top 3 snarkiest heroes on Titan. "Oh, we're doing code names, huh? I'm Spider-Man," was pretty good, though.
posted by straight at 11:12 AM on April 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
Matchups I liked in this one: Peter and Peter talking about Footloose. Chris and Chris competing for alpha male dominance. (Chris and Chris comparing beards.) Tony and Stephen was good, of course, but I especially liked Tony snarking with Peter about how crazy everything was ("They're here to steal a magic necklace from a wizard.") Drax worshiping Thor like a Viking (Bautista was one of the funniest things in he whole movie. His "stealth" scene was amazing).
It's a shame RDJ has to be the MCU smartass. Canonically, Spider-Man should be the one making fun of "Star Lord." It's weird that Spidey's not even in the top 3 snarkiest heroes on Titan. "Oh, we're doing code names, huh? I'm Spider-Man," was pretty good, though.
posted by straight at 11:12 AM on April 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
How would making a V with your fingers and going for his eyes help?
Ooops, it was late and I spelled it wrong. I meant this Curley.
Also, I was thinking the ending is some kind of dream or hallucination that Thanos has, because what's with the weird ending that he's floating around and talking to kid Gamora? Or maybe Thanos also got turned into ash and the ending is his dying thought?
posted by FJT at 11:13 AM on April 27, 2018
Ooops, it was late and I spelled it wrong. I meant this Curley.
Also, I was thinking the ending is some kind of dream or hallucination that Thanos has, because what's with the weird ending that he's floating around and talking to kid Gamora? Or maybe Thanos also got turned into ash and the ending is his dying thought?
posted by FJT at 11:13 AM on April 27, 2018
A big cheer from one guy in the back in our theater when it came on screen: "YES! THAT'S RIGHT! HE'S PAGING MS. MARVEL, MOTHER FUCKERS!"
That's not Kamala Khan's symbol, doofus. There's never been a character named "Ms. Marvel" who used that star and color combination.
posted by straight at 11:15 AM on April 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
That's not Kamala Khan's symbol, doofus. There's never been a character named "Ms. Marvel" who used that star and color combination.
posted by straight at 11:15 AM on April 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
"Hey, Squidward."
posted by zarq at 11:16 AM on April 27, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by zarq at 11:16 AM on April 27, 2018 [15 favorites]
That's not Kamala Khan's symbol, doofus. There's never been a character named "Ms. Marvel" who used that star and color combination.
Whoa, ease up on them guns, Tex! Carol Danvers has been both Ms. and Captain Marvel, it's in bounds.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:42 AM on April 27, 2018 [31 favorites]
Whoa, ease up on them guns, Tex! Carol Danvers has been both Ms. and Captain Marvel, it's in bounds.
posted by Strange Interlude at 11:42 AM on April 27, 2018 [31 favorites]
red skull dude calls thanos by name and thanos is like 'you know who i am?' and skeletor goes 'i'm cursed to know all who come for the stones' and then later thanos calls tony 'mister stark' and tony is like 'you know who i am?' and thanos says 'you aren't the only one cursed with knowledge' which explains why dr strange had to save tony's life, since tony will spend the next film gathering the infinity stones
posted by beerperson at 1:48 PM on April 27, 2018 [34 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 1:48 PM on April 27, 2018 [34 favorites]
That's not Kamala Khan's symbol, doofus. There's never been a character named "Ms. Marvel" who used that star and color combination.
I just quote 'em. I don't correct 'em.
posted by zarq at 1:56 PM on April 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
I just quote 'em. I don't correct 'em.
posted by zarq at 1:56 PM on April 27, 2018 [6 favorites]
I just realized that since T'Challa got himself dusted at the end, that means Shuri is next in line for the Wakandan throne. And that means she's gonna get herself Panthered up to go after her brother, right?
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:10 PM on April 27, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by Strange Interlude at 2:10 PM on April 27, 2018 [30 favorites]
Best end teaser ever, with Samuel L Jackson's choice language
Before the teaser I was thinking the main misstep at the end was leaving out a montage of people all over the world / galaxy watching half of the people around them disintegrating to get a better feel of the enormity of what Thanos had done, that it wasn't just an attack on the Avengers.
So I thought that teaser was just what the movie needed. And the Captain Marvel logo was super great and a needed bit of OH YEAH THERE'S STILL SOME REAL POWERFUL HELP OUT THERE TO CALL IN
posted by straight at 3:36 PM on April 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
Before the teaser I was thinking the main misstep at the end was leaving out a montage of people all over the world / galaxy watching half of the people around them disintegrating to get a better feel of the enormity of what Thanos had done, that it wasn't just an attack on the Avengers.
So I thought that teaser was just what the movie needed. And the Captain Marvel logo was super great and a needed bit of OH YEAH THERE'S STILL SOME REAL POWERFUL HELP OUT THERE TO CALL IN
posted by straight at 3:36 PM on April 27, 2018 [5 favorites]
Sorry, zarq, I didn't mean to sound like I was calling you a doofus, just blurting out what my response would have been if I'd been there.
posted by straight at 3:38 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by straight at 3:38 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
So, are we meant to believe the Red Skull dude is actually Red Skull? This is his fate after the end of the First Avenger? He got magicked away to Vormir to spend eternity cos-playing a ring-wraith?
posted by wabbittwax at 3:40 PM on April 27, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 3:40 PM on April 27, 2018 [15 favorites]
Yep. He picked up the Tesseract as if he was going to use it to reshape reality, the way that the comic Red Skull did with the Cosmic Cube, and it disintegrated him instead. Why precisely he ends up "cosplaying a ringwraith" isn't explained; I suspect that, if the cosmic reset button gets hit in the next movie, we might end up getting to meet some of the metaphysical heavy hitters of the MU, such as Eternity and the Living Tribunal and so on.
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:48 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 3:48 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
There was no reason not to bill this as a two-parter.
Steve Rogers, Iron Man, and Black Widow appear to have completely stopped progressing as characters. They were totally static. Tony Stark got lots of time on-screen but there was no grappling with his demons like there has been since the Russo brothers recognized how damaged he is.
Also, after seeing that "get this man a shield" line in teasers for like a year, those overgrown wrist guards they actually gave him in the end were pretty disappointing.
posted by dry white toast at 5:30 PM on April 27, 2018 [17 favorites]
Steve Rogers, Iron Man, and Black Widow appear to have completely stopped progressing as characters. They were totally static. Tony Stark got lots of time on-screen but there was no grappling with his demons like there has been since the Russo brothers recognized how damaged he is.
Also, after seeing that "get this man a shield" line in teasers for like a year, those overgrown wrist guards they actually gave him in the end were pretty disappointing.
posted by dry white toast at 5:30 PM on April 27, 2018 [17 favorites]
The wrist guards were disappointing. And I'm glad whatever they've been up to basically boiled down to a hair joke between two of the three Chrises.
I realized another reason I was disappointed/annoyed by this: I absolutely do not care at all about Wanda and Vision and find them really boring and the whole "sacrifice" plotline unmoving, particularly when it was at the expense of time for, say, anyone else. Relatedly, I am super tired of Awkward Bruce Banner, which was humorous in Ragnarok but was overdone here.
posted by TwoStride at 5:36 PM on April 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
I realized another reason I was disappointed/annoyed by this: I absolutely do not care at all about Wanda and Vision and find them really boring and the whole "sacrifice" plotline unmoving, particularly when it was at the expense of time for, say, anyone else. Relatedly, I am super tired of Awkward Bruce Banner, which was humorous in Ragnarok but was overdone here.
posted by TwoStride at 5:36 PM on April 27, 2018 [14 favorites]
Disagree about Tony Stark; this is basically the event he wanted an Ultron to defend against. He failed then, failed now (or thinks he has, anyway), and now he's trapped on an alien planet with those failures. Thanos' first line is "I know what it's like to lose." Stark's made sacrifices, but he's never failed as utterly as he has now, and now he knows what it's like too.
As for Steve not changing, kind of the whole point of him is that he doesn't change. He's the man out of time who tells the world, no, you move.
Black Widow, yeah, not a lot there, I'll agree with that.
It'll be interesting to see how they pull this out and whether they can do so without making this movie feel a little pointless. I liked this one, so I have hopes, but one of those hopes is that they'll do something more interesting than "Time Stone rewind".
posted by Errant at 6:47 PM on April 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
As for Steve not changing, kind of the whole point of him is that he doesn't change. He's the man out of time who tells the world, no, you move.
Black Widow, yeah, not a lot there, I'll agree with that.
It'll be interesting to see how they pull this out and whether they can do so without making this movie feel a little pointless. I liked this one, so I have hopes, but one of those hopes is that they'll do something more interesting than "Time Stone rewind".
posted by Errant at 6:47 PM on April 27, 2018 [8 favorites]
Also, as long as we're being vaguely pedantic, even a Time Stone rewind wouldn't be a "retcon". Roseanne waking up in the series finale to find out that Dan's been dead for a year and none of the last season happened is a retcon. This wouldn't be that, whatever they do.
posted by Errant at 6:50 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Errant at 6:50 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
I absolutely do not care at all about Wanda and Vision
Given what happened with the Decimation comics, I had been hoping for Wanda to be the one who just magics back the mutants. That doesn't seem to be the way this is going.
posted by mikelieman at 8:18 PM on April 27, 2018
Given what happened with the Decimation comics, I had been hoping for Wanda to be the one who just magics back the mutants. That doesn't seem to be the way this is going.
posted by mikelieman at 8:18 PM on April 27, 2018
I don't know why, but the Red Skull thing was my favorite part.
I like it when comics do weird shit.
posted by selfnoise at 8:25 PM on April 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
I like it when comics do weird shit.
posted by selfnoise at 8:25 PM on April 27, 2018 [7 favorites]
Mostly I just couldn't get too emotional about all the people disappearing when at least some of them will obviously re-appear. T-Challa disappearing gives too much away.
Stark dying on Titan would have had real resonance. I wish they had had the guts to stick with that.
Also, they messed with scale in a way that I kept bumping on, particularly with Thanos. In the opening scene, at the beginning of his fight with Hulk, he looks smaller than Hulk. But by the end, he looks bigger. And his relatively height to Gamora seemed like it kept moving as well.
posted by dry white toast at 8:26 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
Stark dying on Titan would have had real resonance. I wish they had had the guts to stick with that.
Also, they messed with scale in a way that I kept bumping on, particularly with Thanos. In the opening scene, at the beginning of his fight with Hulk, he looks smaller than Hulk. But by the end, he looks bigger. And his relatively height to Gamora seemed like it kept moving as well.
posted by dry white toast at 8:26 PM on April 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
The big problem I had was the violins when Thanos is about to get the Soul Stone — so cheap. The rest of the score fits pretty well, but that was jarring.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 8:39 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 8:39 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
There was no reason not to bill this as a two-parter.
It originally was, years ago, but Marvel has since stated that they will be two movies with different tones/meaning. So it makes sense, even if make look weird. But the Marvel has been very coy about what movies appear after the next Avengers makes me think (hope), that they're doing what they said.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:46 PM on April 27, 2018
It originally was, years ago, but Marvel has since stated that they will be two movies with different tones/meaning. So it makes sense, even if make look weird. But the Marvel has been very coy about what movies appear after the next Avengers makes me think (hope), that they're doing what they said.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:46 PM on April 27, 2018
Also did Elizabeth Olsen give up on Wanda's accent for this film?
posted by TwoStride at 8:52 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 8:52 PM on April 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Todd VanDerWerff, Vox: Avengers: Infinity War’s ending is incredibly bold. And maybe a little cheap.
But in movies that feature big, big sacrifices or big, big losses, it doesn’t matter the realism of the setting or characters, so long as the emotions ring true. The ending of The Empire Strikes Back is frequently cited in this regard, but I could just as easily include several story beats in everything from Mad Max: Fury Road to The Last Jedi to Marvel’s own Black Panther as creating fantastical situations that nevertheless were grounded in real human feeling.posted by ZeusHumms at 9:24 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
So why wasn’t the same true for Infinity War? The answer has almost nothing to do with Infinity War. Indeed, the answer, I think, stems from the way Marvel handles serialization, which is to say it barely handles it at all.
I liked the Sisterhood is Powerful scene when Okoye and Black Widow came to Scarlet Witch's aid against Evil Goat Assassin Lady.
And I liked SW and Vision's relationship.
I love Squeaky Voice Teen Spiderman so much.
And Stark is still in a bad situation. You can't heal massive internal wounds with a first aid spray (honestly he should have been much closer to dead) and he's alone on a junkyard planet.
I think I honestly came into this in the best way possible...I haven't seen most of the Avenger movies, so it was pretty fresh to me and I don't really know or care about continuity details.
SUPER EXCITED for Captain Marvel. I will care a lot about that one.
posted by emjaybee at 9:33 PM on April 27, 2018 [11 favorites]
And I liked SW and Vision's relationship.
I love Squeaky Voice Teen Spiderman so much.
And Stark is still in a bad situation. You can't heal massive internal wounds with a first aid spray (honestly he should have been much closer to dead) and he's alone on a junkyard planet.
I think I honestly came into this in the best way possible...I haven't seen most of the Avenger movies, so it was pretty fresh to me and I don't really know or care about continuity details.
SUPER EXCITED for Captain Marvel. I will care a lot about that one.
posted by emjaybee at 9:33 PM on April 27, 2018 [11 favorites]
I just realized that since T'Challa got himself dusted at the end, that means Shuri is next in line for the Wakandan throne. And that means she's gonna get herself Panthered up to go after her brother, right?
Well, all the panthering flowers got burned up in Black Panther. So unless someone has a secret stash, she’ll have to do something else for a power up.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:37 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Well, all the panthering flowers got burned up in Black Panther. So unless someone has a secret stash, she’ll have to do something else for a power up.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 10:37 PM on April 27, 2018 [3 favorites]
Beerperson, thanks for pointing out that connection. I wondered how Thanos knew about Stark. This makes sense and gives me hope.
posted by crossoverman at 12:26 AM on April 28, 2018
posted by crossoverman at 12:26 AM on April 28, 2018
Re: Wanda's accent - I remember reading during civil war promo that Olsen deliberately Americanized her accent to reflect her time outside Sokovia and with the Avengers with some of that pan-Balkan bits, as she got used to their English. Which to me sounds like a lot of people I know and with some of them like her in this movie, reaching to the point they're able to use a 'standard native' accent after some years.
posted by cendawanita at 12:41 AM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by cendawanita at 12:41 AM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well, all the panthering flowers got burned up in Black Panther. So unless someone has a secret stash, she’ll have to do something else for a power up.
Yep, a particular flower was indeed saved, so it's possible.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:45 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yep, a particular flower was indeed saved, so it's possible.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:45 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Marvel’s movies are more like TV shows. ‘Avengers: Infinity War’ is its first season finale. - Alyssa Rosenberg, Washington Post.
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:55 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 5:55 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Did I miss the part where they found the Cosmic Chainsaw?
You did. It was in the portal fight scene on Earth where Doctor Strange magicked the bad guy away, and he tried to get back, only to have his hand and wrist chopped off when the portal closed.
Doctor Strange could have done the same to Thanos and chopped off his gauntlet arm.
posted by fings at 6:04 AM on April 28, 2018 [33 favorites]
You did. It was in the portal fight scene on Earth where Doctor Strange magicked the bad guy away, and he tried to get back, only to have his hand and wrist chopped off when the portal closed.
Doctor Strange could have done the same to Thanos and chopped off his gauntlet arm.
posted by fings at 6:04 AM on April 28, 2018 [33 favorites]
Also, now that Fox and Disney are more or less on the same page, Galactus could file a union grievance against Thanos for essentially taking over his job in the second part.
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 6:10 AM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Monday, stony Monday at 6:10 AM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
What? Galactus is just hungry. He doesn't try to pretend eating lunch is some tragic noble act of saving the universe.
"What's that? You say the population of the Universe doubles every 50 years? Well, then I shall slaughter half the living beings in the entire universe, creating a golden age of paradise that will endure for...decades."
posted by straight at 7:48 AM on April 28, 2018 [25 favorites]
"What's that? You say the population of the Universe doubles every 50 years? Well, then I shall slaughter half the living beings in the entire universe, creating a golden age of paradise that will endure for...decades."
posted by straight at 7:48 AM on April 28, 2018 [25 favorites]
Doctor Strange could have done the same to Thanos and chopped off his gauntlet arm.
I was also wondering why Strange couldn't teleport them back to Earth, teleport reinforcements from Earth, or use teleportation to run and hide the Time Stone from Thanos.
posted by straight at 7:50 AM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was also wondering why Strange couldn't teleport them back to Earth, teleport reinforcements from Earth, or use teleportation to run and hide the Time Stone from Thanos.
posted by straight at 7:50 AM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
The End of Infinity War Is What Happens When Money Writes Movies. This touched upon some of my frustration with the sloppines with which the movies (fail to) interact with each other or establish a consistent timeline:
No matter what happens in the comics ― crisscrossing timelines, cape-swapping plot devices, whatever ― Marvel’s movies must function as, well, movies. “Avengers: Infinity War,” and anything else that grosses close to $1 billion, is pitched at anyone and everyone who is or isn’t familiar with its literary origins. But as the franchise progresses, the chronology of its events departs further and further from the order in which movies are released. That alone is inane. Historically, sequels, prequels and spinoffs clearly demarcate where an individual installment exists on a series’ grander timeline ― but Marvel makes little effort to do so. Audiences shouldn’t need a guidebook to figure out which plot technically occurred first, and they shouldn’t have to suspend their disbelief by pretending characters committed to future installments are dead. I don’t want to hear anything about how “Guardians of the Galaxy: Vol. 3” could maybe, possibly, actually occur before “Infinity War,” despite hitting theaters two years later.
For comparison’s sake, when the “Star Wars” galaxy hopscotches between time periods, each movie’s title clearly contextualizes its placement in the series. Trilogies are numbered by episodes, and one-offs are given the subtitle “A Star Wars Story.” There is no confusion as to how the plots ― or individual characters’ involvement ― fit together, even when the movies are released in a non-chronological fashion.
posted by TwoStride at 7:58 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
No matter what happens in the comics ― crisscrossing timelines, cape-swapping plot devices, whatever ― Marvel’s movies must function as, well, movies. “Avengers: Infinity War,” and anything else that grosses close to $1 billion, is pitched at anyone and everyone who is or isn’t familiar with its literary origins. But as the franchise progresses, the chronology of its events departs further and further from the order in which movies are released. That alone is inane. Historically, sequels, prequels and spinoffs clearly demarcate where an individual installment exists on a series’ grander timeline ― but Marvel makes little effort to do so. Audiences shouldn’t need a guidebook to figure out which plot technically occurred first, and they shouldn’t have to suspend their disbelief by pretending characters committed to future installments are dead. I don’t want to hear anything about how “Guardians of the Galaxy: Vol. 3” could maybe, possibly, actually occur before “Infinity War,” despite hitting theaters two years later.
For comparison’s sake, when the “Star Wars” galaxy hopscotches between time periods, each movie’s title clearly contextualizes its placement in the series. Trilogies are numbered by episodes, and one-offs are given the subtitle “A Star Wars Story.” There is no confusion as to how the plots ― or individual characters’ involvement ― fit together, even when the movies are released in a non-chronological fashion.
posted by TwoStride at 7:58 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I think one of the most surprising things in this movie was how great Thanos looked. In that last scene in the late afternoon sunlight of Wakanda (Georgia?) he looked kind of...beautiful? And the expressions on his face seemed to soar even higher over the Uncanny Valley than the already pretty great stuff they were doing with Ruffalo/Hulk in Ragnarok.
posted by straight at 8:04 AM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by straight at 8:04 AM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
I was also wondering why Strange couldn't teleport them back to Earth, teleport reinforcements from Earth, or use teleportation to run and hide the Time Stone from Thanos.
Yeah, half of these characters have powers that could trivially dispense with any conceivable threat. I mean Ant Man could have sneaked into Thanos's ear with a tiny dump truck and then let it resize back to normal. Scarlet Witch apparently has infinity-stone level powers all by herself. And Stark has apparently moved on to full nano-machine magic mode.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:13 AM on April 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
Yeah, half of these characters have powers that could trivially dispense with any conceivable threat. I mean Ant Man could have sneaked into Thanos's ear with a tiny dump truck and then let it resize back to normal. Scarlet Witch apparently has infinity-stone level powers all by herself. And Stark has apparently moved on to full nano-machine magic mode.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:13 AM on April 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
Really good film. Definitely not a letdown.
I'd wondered how they were going to balance so many characters, and the choice they made was to make the villain the central character. It worked. Everyone else got a few good scenes each, often relying on previously established personality traits or relationships to work, which is fine for an entry in a serial story as opposed to a stand-alone.
But the focus on Thanos kept the film centered and allowed for a unified plot and echoing themes (in particular sacrifice and loss) and how the reactions and intentions of the heroes differed from that of the villain in similar situations.
posted by kyrademon at 8:21 AM on April 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'd wondered how they were going to balance so many characters, and the choice they made was to make the villain the central character. It worked. Everyone else got a few good scenes each, often relying on previously established personality traits or relationships to work, which is fine for an entry in a serial story as opposed to a stand-alone.
But the focus on Thanos kept the film centered and allowed for a unified plot and echoing themes (in particular sacrifice and loss) and how the reactions and intentions of the heroes differed from that of the villain in similar situations.
posted by kyrademon at 8:21 AM on April 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
What's that? You say the population of the Universe doubles every 50 years?
I'm not sure, but it seems like Thanos can do it again as needed. It seemed to beat him up, and wreck the gauntlet a little, but maybe the stones are reusable.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:28 AM on April 28, 2018
I'm not sure, but it seems like Thanos can do it again as needed. It seemed to beat him up, and wreck the gauntlet a little, but maybe the stones are reusable.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:28 AM on April 28, 2018
The End of Infinity War Is What Happens When Money Writes Movies
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/avengers-infinity-war-ending-is-dumb
That is an extremely dumb article. Complaining about an imaginary feeling of confusion he's afraid he might feel a couple of years from now if a hypothetical movie hypothetically does a bad job of making clear how it fits into the chronology of the other movies? Ow, I hurt my eyes rolling them so hard.
Then complaining that a movie has no stakes because you suspect the protagonists aren't really going to die at the end of the story? That's an awful lot of movies this poor guy has apparently convinced himself he can't actually enjoy.
Watching Peter Parker "die" is moving not because of some meta nonsense about whether Marvel has successfully hidden from me the details of Tom Holland's contract. If it's moving, it's because the writing and performance have pulled me in to empathize with the perspective of the characters, how Peter and Tony feel at that moment, not because I've somehow convinced myself to forget how fiction works.
posted by straight at 8:32 AM on April 28, 2018 [34 favorites]
https://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/avengers-infinity-war-ending-is-dumb
That is an extremely dumb article. Complaining about an imaginary feeling of confusion he's afraid he might feel a couple of years from now if a hypothetical movie hypothetically does a bad job of making clear how it fits into the chronology of the other movies? Ow, I hurt my eyes rolling them so hard.
Then complaining that a movie has no stakes because you suspect the protagonists aren't really going to die at the end of the story? That's an awful lot of movies this poor guy has apparently convinced himself he can't actually enjoy.
Watching Peter Parker "die" is moving not because of some meta nonsense about whether Marvel has successfully hidden from me the details of Tom Holland's contract. If it's moving, it's because the writing and performance have pulled me in to empathize with the perspective of the characters, how Peter and Tony feel at that moment, not because I've somehow convinced myself to forget how fiction works.
posted by straight at 8:32 AM on April 28, 2018 [34 favorites]
The End of Infinity War Is What Happens When Money Writes Movies.
Yeah, I miss when special-effects blockbusters were just made for the love, man.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:33 AM on April 28, 2018 [34 favorites]
Yeah, I miss when special-effects blockbusters were just made for the love, man.
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:33 AM on April 28, 2018 [34 favorites]
I've been preparing myself literally for years for the worst hurt I expected from this movie, the death of the MCU's Tony Stark and possibly also Steve Rogers, both of whom I love beyond all rational adult detachment from fictional characters.
It turns out that no, the worst is actually Tony watching his spider-son baby hero Peter die in his arms as Peter begs not to go. And Steve running his fingers through Bucky's ashes.
Chris Evans and RDJ haven't signed longer contracts after this movie, so I'm going to have to steel myself up for their deaths AGAIN. I'm a goddamn wreck.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:37 AM on April 28, 2018 [36 favorites]
It turns out that no, the worst is actually Tony watching his spider-son baby hero Peter die in his arms as Peter begs not to go. And Steve running his fingers through Bucky's ashes.
Chris Evans and RDJ haven't signed longer contracts after this movie, so I'm going to have to steel myself up for their deaths AGAIN. I'm a goddamn wreck.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:37 AM on April 28, 2018 [36 favorites]
Yeah, I miss when special-effects blockbusters were just made for the love, man.
the article cites Star Wars as a contrast
posted by beerperson at 10:40 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
the article cites Star Wars as a contrast
posted by beerperson at 10:40 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
"What's that? You say the population of the Universe doubles every 50 years? Well, then I shall slaughter half the living beings in the entire universe, creating a golden age of paradise that will endure for...decades."
I'm not convinced Thanos has given that much thought to the ecological effects of wiping out 50% of populations either.
posted by biffa at 10:43 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm not convinced Thanos has given that much thought to the ecological effects of wiping out 50% of populations either.
posted by biffa at 10:43 AM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
Mr Mitten's theory: Thanos has split reality in two, and the disappeared people are now in the other reality. Reality A and Reality B, just to label them. And it's Reality B that's gonna survive.
All the big characters people speculated might be killed off in this movie (Cap, Stark, Thor, Banner) survived, or, they all stayed in Reality A. All the characters we know have upcoming movies in the pipeline (Black Panther, Spidey) got sent to B. If people think they're going to do a Bucky-as-Cap plotline, well, Bucky got sent to the other reality and Steve was left in the old one.
I'd been wondering how they can handle having Cap and T'Challa in the same universe -- both of them are characters whose moral perspective the movie treats as definitively true. The two-realities theory would fix that - they'd each get their own reality.
It also makes sense of Strange's goodbye to Stark... is he apologizing to Stark for leaving him here in reality A?
I mean, the idea that everybody who's left 'alive' here is going to sacrifice themselves to bring back one person of their choice (Okoye/T'Challa, Steve/Bucky, Stark/Spidey, Vision/Wanda, etc...) might be more likely in actual fact; I don't know how it all went down in the comics. But I'm enjoying the reversal of feelings this Reality B theory offers; where I was sad to see someone disappear in the theater I can now be relieved, and where I was relieved there's now the bittersweet feeling that these characters don't yet realize they're the doomed ones.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:44 AM on April 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
All the big characters people speculated might be killed off in this movie (Cap, Stark, Thor, Banner) survived, or, they all stayed in Reality A. All the characters we know have upcoming movies in the pipeline (Black Panther, Spidey) got sent to B. If people think they're going to do a Bucky-as-Cap plotline, well, Bucky got sent to the other reality and Steve was left in the old one.
I'd been wondering how they can handle having Cap and T'Challa in the same universe -- both of them are characters whose moral perspective the movie treats as definitively true. The two-realities theory would fix that - they'd each get their own reality.
It also makes sense of Strange's goodbye to Stark... is he apologizing to Stark for leaving him here in reality A?
I mean, the idea that everybody who's left 'alive' here is going to sacrifice themselves to bring back one person of their choice (Okoye/T'Challa, Steve/Bucky, Stark/Spidey, Vision/Wanda, etc...) might be more likely in actual fact; I don't know how it all went down in the comics. But I'm enjoying the reversal of feelings this Reality B theory offers; where I was sad to see someone disappear in the theater I can now be relieved, and where I was relieved there's now the bittersweet feeling that these characters don't yet realize they're the doomed ones.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:44 AM on April 28, 2018 [28 favorites]
Props to Marvel for the somber finale music playing quietly so I could hear all the small children sobbing through the end credits in my theater audience.
posted by nicebookrack at 10:47 AM on April 28, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 10:47 AM on April 28, 2018 [30 favorites]
Other thoughts -
- "I am Groot" - "I'm Steve Rogers."
- If Thanos always kills 1/2, did half the Asgardians survive or was that addressed?
- Shuri's last-minute computer fiddling - I assume this was a forward-looking thing? Was she doing something to Vision or something else entirely?
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:52 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
- "I am Groot" - "I'm Steve Rogers."
- If Thanos always kills 1/2, did half the Asgardians survive or was that addressed?
- Shuri's last-minute computer fiddling - I assume this was a forward-looking thing? Was she doing something to Vision or something else entirely?
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:52 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
> "If Thanos always kills 1/2, did half the Asgardians survive or was that addressed?"
It was actually mentioned in a line that [only] half of the Asgardians died, although it is unclear what happened to the others.
posted by kyrademon at 11:08 AM on April 28, 2018
It was actually mentioned in a line that [only] half of the Asgardians died, although it is unclear what happened to the others.
posted by kyrademon at 11:08 AM on April 28, 2018
If nothing else, the wipeout of half the universe's population felt like an enthusiastic Fuck You to the television side of the Marvel Cinematic Universe and any attempts to make those TV sidestories fit into the MCU movies' timeline. Either all the TV series are set before the Thanos Purge, in which case we know half the characters are doomed anyway; or the TV series incorporate the movie events, in which case half the TV casts vanish with no explanation; or the TV series ignore the movie consequences, in which case the TV creators and fans have to finally accept that the MCU "it's all connected" hype was nonsense and the TV universes were never part of the movie canon. Or the TV series are all set in some weird limbo after Untitled Avengers Sequel has returned the universe to normal.
Agents of SHIELD, now wrapping up its fifth season, has always been the TV Marvel series that's tried the most to reflect the MCU movie events, however tenuous and one-sided those connections are. It's bittersweet as a fan to think that this is probably the last AoS season, if not due to only budget cuts and declining ratings, then because there's no way for Agents of SHIELD to incorporate Infinity War's consequences in a way that isn't a complete mess.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:10 AM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Agents of SHIELD, now wrapping up its fifth season, has always been the TV Marvel series that's tried the most to reflect the MCU movie events, however tenuous and one-sided those connections are. It's bittersweet as a fan to think that this is probably the last AoS season, if not due to only budget cuts and declining ratings, then because there's no way for Agents of SHIELD to incorporate Infinity War's consequences in a way that isn't a complete mess.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:10 AM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
beerperson: hopeful headcanon accepted!
My pet theory in that vein is that Tony has been somehow having prophetic dreams, starting with the vision of invasion he got from Wanda in Age of Ultron. By this argument the dreams Tony was talking about at the beginning of Infinity War are leakage from an alternate universe or future time travel, in which Tony & Co. reset or prevent Thanos's massacre, and in the new timeline Pepper is pregnant and Tony retires to be a stay-at-home dad.
In similar Pepperony thoughts, I feel intense warm fuzzy fondness comparing 2008 Tony Stark, "WOOO STRIPPERS AND BOOZE AND EMOTIONAL DEFLECTION," to 2018 Tony Stark, responsible adult who wants to get married and have Pepper's babies.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:34 AM on April 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
My pet theory in that vein is that Tony has been somehow having prophetic dreams, starting with the vision of invasion he got from Wanda in Age of Ultron. By this argument the dreams Tony was talking about at the beginning of Infinity War are leakage from an alternate universe or future time travel, in which Tony & Co. reset or prevent Thanos's massacre, and in the new timeline Pepper is pregnant and Tony retires to be a stay-at-home dad.
In similar Pepperony thoughts, I feel intense warm fuzzy fondness comparing 2008 Tony Stark, "WOOO STRIPPERS AND BOOZE AND EMOTIONAL DEFLECTION," to 2018 Tony Stark, responsible adult who wants to get married and have Pepper's babies.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:34 AM on April 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
And it's Reality B that's gonna survive.
Yes! I kinda thought this was so obvious once cap and iron man were staying behind. Cap isn’t doing another movie, he’s not dying again, he’s just left in a universe nobody will film anymore.
I mean, they took away Part 2 yeas ago. There’s no need to undo any of these deaths since only 3 heroes actually died. And one is a robot, so did he really die?
Anyway, I realize I might be totally wrong. But I’m glad that someone else came to the same conclusion. I was feeling very lonely with my pet hobby horse over here.
posted by politikitty at 11:40 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Yes! I kinda thought this was so obvious once cap and iron man were staying behind. Cap isn’t doing another movie, he’s not dying again, he’s just left in a universe nobody will film anymore.
I mean, they took away Part 2 yeas ago. There’s no need to undo any of these deaths since only 3 heroes actually died. And one is a robot, so did he really die?
Anyway, I realize I might be totally wrong. But I’m glad that someone else came to the same conclusion. I was feeling very lonely with my pet hobby horse over here.
posted by politikitty at 11:40 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Okay 4. I left out Gamora. But as a sacrifice that’s as handwavey as Visions death.
posted by politikitty at 11:45 AM on April 28, 2018
posted by politikitty at 11:45 AM on April 28, 2018
Probably unrelated, because the MCU movies don't care about the TV series, but: "multiverse theory" is an argument Agents of SHIELD is currently having with itself about whether or not the past can be changed if time travel is possible: is time travel possible because the timeline is a fixed unchangeable loop, or does changing the past create an infinite number of universes branching into new timelines, or something else?
Since AFAIK Agents of SHIELD is the first MCU property outside the movies to introduce the possibility of time travel, MCU fans are likely going to analyzing it obsessively for Infinity War sequel clues even if that's pointless. I certainly am. Maybe the X-Men movie universe will be added to the MCU via timey-wimey ball?
posted by nicebookrack at 11:46 AM on April 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Since AFAIK Agents of SHIELD is the first MCU property outside the movies to introduce the possibility of time travel, MCU fans are likely going to analyzing it obsessively for Infinity War sequel clues even if that's pointless. I certainly am. Maybe the X-Men movie universe will be added to the MCU via timey-wimey ball?
posted by nicebookrack at 11:46 AM on April 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
The part I hated most about big-ass event crossovers in the comics was how they impacted and got in the way of other series. I'd prefer part 2 to come out, with a mostly-reset button, so Black Panther and Spider-Man don't have to make a big deal of this in their narratives, in their first sequels.
Ugh, I just looked at the MCU wikipedia entry - Black Panther 2 isn't scheduled yet, Spider-Man 2 is released two months after the next Avengers, there are 8 tv series with another 2-4 coming... I wondered if X-Men or Fantastic Four could get incorporated into the narrative and oh hey that's a rabbit hole, which on preview, hi nicebookrack!
posted by Pronoiac at 11:52 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Ugh, I just looked at the MCU wikipedia entry - Black Panther 2 isn't scheduled yet, Spider-Man 2 is released two months after the next Avengers, there are 8 tv series with another 2-4 coming... I wondered if X-Men or Fantastic Four could get incorporated into the narrative and oh hey that's a rabbit hole, which on preview, hi nicebookrack!
posted by Pronoiac at 11:52 AM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I reject the Reality A/Reality B theory on the emotional logic that leaving Rocket Raccoon alive and alone in Reality A as the last Guardian of the Galaxy is too cruel to contemplate. Rocket has always been positioned in GOTG as the loneliest character most fearful of being abandoned. In Infinity War, Rocket just lost EVERYONE he loved, even if he doesn't know it yet.
Also, Natasha is still alive in Reality A, and Marvel has recently, belatedly announced plans for a forthcoming Black Widow movie. Although I don't know that it's starring Scarlett Johansson or that it's planned as a future BW movie: the film could be set during Natasha's past early days at SHIELD, or the titular Black Widow could be Yelena Belova.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:01 PM on April 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
Also, Natasha is still alive in Reality A, and Marvel has recently, belatedly announced plans for a forthcoming Black Widow movie. Although I don't know that it's starring Scarlett Johansson or that it's planned as a future BW movie: the film could be set during Natasha's past early days at SHIELD, or the titular Black Widow could be Yelena Belova.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:01 PM on April 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
And Stark has apparently moved on to full nano-machine magic mode.
I mean, the ability of Tony Stark's incredibly strong, incredibly powerful armor to servo itself out of tinier and tinier spaces in the progressing Marvel films has inured me to logic at this point. The final straw was the shot in Guardians 2 of Rocket repairing Starlord's ship with a ray that just conjured into being portions of the undamaged ship.
It's magic, folks. And, appropriately, it reminds me of what Harry Potter once said: "Actually sir, after all these years I just sort of go with it."
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 12:09 PM on April 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
I mean, the ability of Tony Stark's incredibly strong, incredibly powerful armor to servo itself out of tinier and tinier spaces in the progressing Marvel films has inured me to logic at this point. The final straw was the shot in Guardians 2 of Rocket repairing Starlord's ship with a ray that just conjured into being portions of the undamaged ship.
It's magic, folks. And, appropriately, it reminds me of what Harry Potter once said: "Actually sir, after all these years I just sort of go with it."
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 12:09 PM on April 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
That payoff with Rocket and the eyeball. I wonder if they been planning that since the first Guardians film. Clever bastards.
posted by cazoo at 12:12 PM on April 28, 2018 [26 favorites]
posted by cazoo at 12:12 PM on April 28, 2018 [26 favorites]
Hey, Rocket is now free to take Bucky's arm!
(Did the arm dissolve with him? I was crying too hard to notice)
posted by nicebookrack at 12:15 PM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
(Did the arm dissolve with him? I was crying too hard to notice)
posted by nicebookrack at 12:15 PM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
In the comics, the Extremis formula (seen in Iron Man 3) was modified by Tony Stark to become part of his armor, and later developed into the "Bleeding Edge" suit, which he stored entirely inside his body, so the nanomachines armor seen in this movie is kind of following along with that theme.
Did the arm dissolve with him? I was crying too hard to notice
Yeah, he disappeared entirely.
posted by Fleebnork at 12:17 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Did the arm dissolve with him? I was crying too hard to notice
Yeah, he disappeared entirely.
posted by Fleebnork at 12:17 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Oh, and I liked the various gadgets he manifested out of his suit. The multiple laser one used to blast the big Thanos minion put a big grin on my face.
posted by Fleebnork at 12:19 PM on April 28, 2018
posted by Fleebnork at 12:19 PM on April 28, 2018
What a piece of meh
Like it’s either a gloomy murder fest were the “death” is real 0% chance
Or
It’s all undone by mcguffin #214 and none of it matters at all 100% chance
I’ve liked/loved almost all the Marvel movies up to this point. This was such a snooze, it was like watching 100 pages of studio and marketing notes come to life. I didn’t hate it, it’s not DC movie terrible, but I kinda want my afternoon back.
posted by French Fry at 12:37 PM on April 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
Like it’s either a gloomy murder fest were the “death” is real 0% chance
Or
It’s all undone by mcguffin #214 and none of it matters at all 100% chance
I’ve liked/loved almost all the Marvel movies up to this point. This was such a snooze, it was like watching 100 pages of studio and marketing notes come to life. I didn’t hate it, it’s not DC movie terrible, but I kinda want my afternoon back.
posted by French Fry at 12:37 PM on April 28, 2018 [9 favorites]
I'm already side-eyeing the fuck out of any claims of Thanos being sympathetic, that he "well actually has a point," etc. His solution to the fundamental problem of economics is "What if we kill half of everybody?" He sticks to that because he likes killing. He clearly enjoys cruelty. His actions repeatedly spell that out.
Dude is a purple Grimace space version of Paul Ryan: cruelty with a sadface to make you think he feels like he "has to" do this shit.
For that, he's a solid villain for the era we're in. But sympathetic? No. "Magneto made some valid points" is legit. This dude ain't Magneto.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:46 PM on April 28, 2018 [44 favorites]
Dude is a purple Grimace space version of Paul Ryan: cruelty with a sadface to make you think he feels like he "has to" do this shit.
For that, he's a solid villain for the era we're in. But sympathetic? No. "Magneto made some valid points" is legit. This dude ain't Magneto.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 12:46 PM on April 28, 2018 [44 favorites]
scaryblackdeath, I will actively punch the universe for accepting Thanos's "sacrifice" of Gamora as love payment for the Soul Stone. Thanos emotionally and physically abused her to force her to become the weapon he wanted. He tortured Gamora's sister in front of her to get information and to punish her for lying. That isn't love, narcissist asshole.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:02 PM on April 28, 2018 [30 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 1:02 PM on April 28, 2018 [30 favorites]
Yeah, I was pretty surprised by that. She even says "that isn't real love" and then ...apparently uh, the universe thinks it is? Thumbs down on that.
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:05 PM on April 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:05 PM on April 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
Did the universe accept it though ? The Gamora sacrifice seemed like the biggest potential hole in Thanos' plan .Plus after Thanos got all the stones there was a scene with child Gamora and then he used y the power andd the gauntlet was messed up.
posted by biffa at 1:16 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by biffa at 1:16 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
So what do you make of the child Gamora scene? I was left sort of nonplussed by that. Do you think it's the universe saying "you don't actually have the soul stone after all, so things aren't gonna go the way you think"?
Dr. Strange says he had to give the time stone to Thanos, that's the only way the plan works, so... does Thanos come to regret sacrificing Gamora and use the time stone to rewind and undo that sacrifice? Does child Gamora get hold of it somehow?
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:21 PM on April 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
Dr. Strange says he had to give the time stone to Thanos, that's the only way the plan works, so... does Thanos come to regret sacrificing Gamora and use the time stone to rewind and undo that sacrifice? Does child Gamora get hold of it somehow?
posted by LobsterMitten at 1:21 PM on April 28, 2018 [10 favorites]
I would agree that the universe should know better regarding what's love. Frankly, it's the same problem I have with Star Wars: Darth Vader didn't redeem himself. Dude turned on a boss who had explicitly said he was old news for the sake of his progeny. Doesn't make up for anything he did. "Redemption" there is bullshit. Similarly, here we have a claim of love, but no, that ain't love.
I'm hoping the Russo brothers know that.
At any rate, I expect the two big kinks in the plan now are Gamora's situation and whatever Shuri managed to accomplish with the mind stone in what little time she had. I'm hoping for a big payoff there. Also potentially whatever Wanda's influence might've done to the mind stone and whatever Strange saw.
Also... like, the Red Skull was right there and I was super glad to see him make an appearance. But he didn't tell Thanos, "BTW, your plan means you're going up against Rogers, so you're fucked," and that's a real missed moment if you ask me.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:29 PM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm hoping the Russo brothers know that.
At any rate, I expect the two big kinks in the plan now are Gamora's situation and whatever Shuri managed to accomplish with the mind stone in what little time she had. I'm hoping for a big payoff there. Also potentially whatever Wanda's influence might've done to the mind stone and whatever Strange saw.
Also... like, the Red Skull was right there and I was super glad to see him make an appearance. But he didn't tell Thanos, "BTW, your plan means you're going up against Rogers, so you're fucked," and that's a real missed moment if you ask me.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:29 PM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
Truth be told, I have a little ongoing frustration with how de-powered and undersold some of these characters are in the films. Gamora is way less of a big deal than she should be. We saw hints of Wanda being scary-powerful in this, which was nice, but still. Spidey gets surprised and hit a lot where he just kinda shouldn't, because he's freakin' Spider-Man. And Steve... other than the Iron Man fight at the end of Civil War (where he was with Bucky), we haven't really seen the Captain America who always finds a way and can stand toe-to-toe against anyone like he does in the comics, no matter how lopsided the odds. That's his deal.
That kind of stuff can be hard to thread into a movie. I get it. But the comics fan in me is frustrated regardless.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:39 PM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
That kind of stuff can be hard to thread into a movie. I get it. But the comics fan in me is frustrated regardless.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 1:39 PM on April 28, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean, people (especially parents) can love and still hurt/abuse. The two things aren't mutually exclusive, and I felt like that was a most likely unintentional moment of emotional complexity in that storyline.
posted by colorblock sock at 2:00 PM on April 28, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by colorblock sock at 2:00 PM on April 28, 2018 [14 favorites]
I'm okay with the movie versions being underpowered compare to their comics counterparts in large part because serial escalation would mean the heroes would need to fight increasingly ludicrously overpowered bigger threats to have any fight scene drama. If Steve Rogers can easily go toe-to-toe with Thanos, why should I care when he's fighting Batroc the Leaper, y'know? The more exceptionally powerful characters you have, the more you have to handicap or separate the heaviest hitters to keep them from solving everything with one punch. (Infinity War examples: Thor is off on a fetch quest for most of the movie, Hulk flat-out refuses to fight, Scarlet Witch and Vision are removed from most of the final battle, and Doctor Strange refrains from using his Time Stone big gun.)
posted by nicebookrack at 2:06 PM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 2:06 PM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
IIRC Kevin Feige has said that the unrevealed title for Untitled Avengers Sequel is a massive spoiler for Infinity War. What's y'all's wild speculation on that front? The MCU does like naming movies after comics storyarcs, so a storyarc-based name could also be a spoiler for whatever comic the movie is referencing.
Avengers Disassembled would have black-humored poetry to it.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:13 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Avengers Disassembled would have black-humored poetry to it.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:13 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
Here’s my hypothesis: Loki does a thing. He looked right at Thor when he proclaimed himself Odinson, which he is not, and he announced himself as the God of Mischief before swearing “undying loyalty” to the God of Death.
DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING LOKI SAYS EVER, BUT PARTICULARLY NOT IMMEDIATELY AFTER HE DEFINES HIMSELF AS THE GOD OF MISCHIEF.
my guess is that Dr. Strange did something timey-wimey before handing over the time stone, and that somehow Loki and Nebula will do something with the timey-wimeyness.
posted by KathrynT at 2:36 PM on April 28, 2018 [20 favorites]
DO NOT BELIEVE ANYTHING LOKI SAYS EVER, BUT PARTICULARLY NOT IMMEDIATELY AFTER HE DEFINES HIMSELF AS THE GOD OF MISCHIEF.
my guess is that Dr. Strange did something timey-wimey before handing over the time stone, and that somehow Loki and Nebula will do something with the timey-wimeyness.
posted by KathrynT at 2:36 PM on April 28, 2018 [20 favorites]
(FWIW: I thought they did a real good job on this movie, so I don't want my thoughts to sound like I hated it or whatever.)
For the next movie: I think it's less about the title of the movie and more that they wanted to preserve the shock value of the ending on this one. I got off the phone with my mother and sister two minutes ago who saw it this morning and mom was not okay with this shit. She doesn't know the comic book storyline and didn't know this was a two-parter. A whole lot of the audience will fit that category, and so the ending has a different value for them than it has for a comics fan.
As for the title itself: I think Avengers Forever is probably the most appropriate thing. Particularly as there have been a lot of hints in fan sites of a time-travel and/or time-skipping angle to the next film.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:37 PM on April 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
For the next movie: I think it's less about the title of the movie and more that they wanted to preserve the shock value of the ending on this one. I got off the phone with my mother and sister two minutes ago who saw it this morning and mom was not okay with this shit. She doesn't know the comic book storyline and didn't know this was a two-parter. A whole lot of the audience will fit that category, and so the ending has a different value for them than it has for a comics fan.
As for the title itself: I think Avengers Forever is probably the most appropriate thing. Particularly as there have been a lot of hints in fan sites of a time-travel and/or time-skipping angle to the next film.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:37 PM on April 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
Also, because it needs to be said: Holy shit, people. Rocket Raccoon.
Just... wow. Rocket. Every moment. Damn.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:38 PM on April 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
Just... wow. Rocket. Every moment. Damn.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:38 PM on April 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
there's no way for Agents of SHIELD to incorporate Infinity War's consequences in a way that isn't a complete mess.
In the episode that aired on April 27th (Infinity War's opening night) two AoS characters have the following exchange, paraphased:
posted by paper chromatographologist at 2:52 PM on April 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
In the episode that aired on April 27th (Infinity War's opening night) two AoS characters have the following exchange, paraphased:
C1: Have you head about that crazy stuff happening in New York?Which, if that's a nod to the movie, is so lazy that and sloppy that it wraps all the way back around to being kind of awesome.
C2: No, I don't follow the news.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 2:52 PM on April 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
I would bet money that the next movie has Thor cutting off Thanos's hand with the following exchange:
"I told you last time, you should have gone for the head!"
"No, I should have gone for the arm/shoulder/elbow."
Chekhov's ax.
posted by gerryblog at 3:13 PM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
"I told you last time, you should have gone for the head!"
"No, I should have gone for the arm/shoulder/elbow."
Chekhov's ax.
posted by gerryblog at 3:13 PM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Already, reading this thread as shook me to the core as I was so convinced the next movie would be about an un-/re-Snap that it never occurred to me that they could do a multiverse thing. I don't think they will do the Reality A/Reality B thing described here for the reasons described in the thread (mostly that I don't think all the Reality A characters will never be any of the sequels) but it's an intriguing alternative to a plotline that seems like it might be a little boring.
posted by gerryblog at 3:15 PM on April 28, 2018
posted by gerryblog at 3:15 PM on April 28, 2018
A final thought: really, what was up with Banner's floating head in the Hulkbuster suit in the last shot of Our Heroes? I don't think I've ever seen a shot in a movie that bad in decades. It looked like it was done the night before with the wrong software.
Were there very last minute recuts of the movie? It seemed to me that the sequence was building to a (rad) visual of Banner Hulking out through the Hulkbuster armor, but then that never happened. Maybe they decided (last week?) to keep the Hulk back until the sequel?
posted by gerryblog at 3:18 PM on April 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
Were there very last minute recuts of the movie? It seemed to me that the sequence was building to a (rad) visual of Banner Hulking out through the Hulkbuster armor, but then that never happened. Maybe they decided (last week?) to keep the Hulk back until the sequel?
posted by gerryblog at 3:18 PM on April 28, 2018 [17 favorites]
50-year old Marvel fanboy here and I really enjoyed the movie, especially given that I was able to watch it with my 10-year-old next to me and sense his excitement as well. The non-stop cadence of the action did remind me of Fury Road a bit and I didn't really mind the "slow" parts given they all had some performances that made them interesting. Whenever I watch the better MCU movies there's always the "pinching myself" moment where I can't believe, but am elated that I'm seeing all this come to life in such a well-handled way.
If you like Marvel and the MCU in general, this movie's for you. If you are not a fan, or have franchise fatigue, maybe not so much (I almost feel bad for critics who have to cover these objectively - it's like reading a review of a younger children's video-game by a 23-year-old).
The MCU's biggest problem to solve is how to deal with actors aging in and out of roles - the comics have a slower version burn of this and all the continuity resets have now seemed to overpace the problem of keeping these characters culturally relevant and identifiable to new audiences. (Aside: I remember reading a reboot of Daredevils origin in which the driver of the truck was distracted because he was on a cellphone. UGH.)
Infinity War is obviously going to be a reboot attempt and it brings in really interesting opportunities to introduce the newly available X-Men and (be still my heart) the Fantastic Four. I would love to see some sort of passing the torch between Downey Jr. and whatever actor ends up playing Reed Richards (I like Andrew Lincoln) to be the “big brain” of the next season of movies.
I think Wanda and Vision needed more time to develop their storyline - but in a different movie. It would be great if the next iteration of the MCU includes real (not take backs) uses of TV series to do this. A straight up drama/romance w/PKD overtones
would have been fantastic and I give Marvel Studios the permission to use this idea in a prequel series.
The ending was a ballsy move in was not afraid of driving it home. Knowing what was happening, as key characters turned to dust, “i thought detachedly “Oh this is happening…” but big credits to Tom Holland for really driving the moment home - it was an emotional gutpunch. All the actors are so well cast, it will be hard to move on to new versions of them.
posted by BigBrooklyn at 4:10 PM on April 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
If you like Marvel and the MCU in general, this movie's for you. If you are not a fan, or have franchise fatigue, maybe not so much (I almost feel bad for critics who have to cover these objectively - it's like reading a review of a younger children's video-game by a 23-year-old).
The MCU's biggest problem to solve is how to deal with actors aging in and out of roles - the comics have a slower version burn of this and all the continuity resets have now seemed to overpace the problem of keeping these characters culturally relevant and identifiable to new audiences. (Aside: I remember reading a reboot of Daredevils origin in which the driver of the truck was distracted because he was on a cellphone. UGH.)
Infinity War is obviously going to be a reboot attempt and it brings in really interesting opportunities to introduce the newly available X-Men and (be still my heart) the Fantastic Four. I would love to see some sort of passing the torch between Downey Jr. and whatever actor ends up playing Reed Richards (I like Andrew Lincoln) to be the “big brain” of the next season of movies.
I think Wanda and Vision needed more time to develop their storyline - but in a different movie. It would be great if the next iteration of the MCU includes real (not take backs) uses of TV series to do this. A straight up drama/romance w/PKD overtones
would have been fantastic and I give Marvel Studios the permission to use this idea in a prequel series.
The ending was a ballsy move in was not afraid of driving it home. Knowing what was happening, as key characters turned to dust, “i thought detachedly “Oh this is happening…” but big credits to Tom Holland for really driving the moment home - it was an emotional gutpunch. All the actors are so well cast, it will be hard to move on to new versions of them.
posted by BigBrooklyn at 4:10 PM on April 28, 2018 [5 favorites]
He looked right at Thor when he proclaimed himself Odinson, which he is not, and he announced himself as the God of Mischief before swearing “undying loyalty” to the God of Death
My interpretation of that scene sadder/sweeter: When Loki looks to Thor, he's saying "Odinson...I pledge to YOU my undying loyalty."
Or both our interpretations are correct because it's friggin' Loki the slippery. (Also of course Loki is Odinson if he wants to be Odinson. Ragnarok heavily reaffirmed that Odin 100% considers Loki a son and Thor 100% considers Loki a brother, whether Loki likes it or not.)
posted by nicebookrack at 4:18 PM on April 28, 2018 [22 favorites]
My interpretation of that scene sadder/sweeter: When Loki looks to Thor, he's saying "Odinson...I pledge to YOU my undying loyalty."
Or both our interpretations are correct because it's friggin' Loki the slippery. (Also of course Loki is Odinson if he wants to be Odinson. Ragnarok heavily reaffirmed that Odin 100% considers Loki a son and Thor 100% considers Loki a brother, whether Loki likes it or not.)
posted by nicebookrack at 4:18 PM on April 28, 2018 [22 favorites]
a (rad) visual of Banner Hulking out through the Hulkbuster armor
According to interviews, Joss Whedon wanted to use exactly that visual as a throwaway in Age of Ultron, but Kevin Feige begged him to hold off so they could use it to greater effect in a later movie. So I was expecting it exactly like you, and it...didn't happen? And now if ever does happen it'll feel like a repeat of this Infinity War scene?
Speculation: Infinity War 2 (we've got to come out with a agreed name for it) has elements of time travel or Groundhog Day-looping, so there's literally a repeat of the IW scene with Hulk bursting out of the Hulkbuster armor this time. That would also explain why IW & sequel were shot back-to-back; they aren't just reusing sets, they're repeating scenes.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:32 PM on April 28, 2018 [14 favorites]
According to interviews, Joss Whedon wanted to use exactly that visual as a throwaway in Age of Ultron, but Kevin Feige begged him to hold off so they could use it to greater effect in a later movie. So I was expecting it exactly like you, and it...didn't happen? And now if ever does happen it'll feel like a repeat of this Infinity War scene?
Speculation: Infinity War 2 (we've got to come out with a agreed name for it) has elements of time travel or Groundhog Day-looping, so there's literally a repeat of the IW scene with Hulk bursting out of the Hulkbuster armor this time. That would also explain why IW & sequel were shot back-to-back; they aren't just reusing sets, they're repeating scenes.
posted by nicebookrack at 4:32 PM on April 28, 2018 [14 favorites]
Oo, totally that.
So what was the chain of causality that led to Hulk not coming out in this one? He got beat up by Thanos initially and then hid after that? So if we rewind time to the beginning of the movie, is there some obvious way to stop him getting beat up - maybe Heimdall sends him to Earth before he gets beat up? (But then he's still Hulk rather than Banner and maybe can't tell them what's coming?)
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:45 PM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
So what was the chain of causality that led to Hulk not coming out in this one? He got beat up by Thanos initially and then hid after that? So if we rewind time to the beginning of the movie, is there some obvious way to stop him getting beat up - maybe Heimdall sends him to Earth before he gets beat up? (But then he's still Hulk rather than Banner and maybe can't tell them what's coming?)
posted by LobsterMitten at 4:45 PM on April 28, 2018 [1 favorite]
Doctor Strange was my favourite character in the movie. Hope he has a role to play in part 2 & beyond.
posted by asra at 4:53 PM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by asra at 4:53 PM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
If the dread villain GoogleOS hadn't gathered the Usenet Stone and then snapped his fingers, scattering the greater part of the DejaNews archive into useless fragments, I would link to all the people crying on rec.arts.comics.marvel.whatever-they-called-the-miscellaneous-group-for-everything-that-wasn't-about-the-X-men-shrug-it-was-the-90s after reading Infinity Gauntlet #2.
"How could they kill Hawkeye? Beast? Iceman? Daredevil? Ben Grimm? Black Panther? Oh, no! We'll never read another story about any of these charcters again!"
And then the other nerds posting, "Marvel, you idiots, unlike every single other comic which ends with a cliffhanger about whether the main character is going to die, THIS TIME we can clearly see the ads for all the X-Men and Fantastic Four and Daredevil comics for the next few months, so we know they aren't all really permanently dead! So this story is uniquely bad and without stakes."
posted by straight at 5:06 PM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
"How could they kill Hawkeye? Beast? Iceman? Daredevil? Ben Grimm? Black Panther? Oh, no! We'll never read another story about any of these charcters again!"
And then the other nerds posting, "Marvel, you idiots, unlike every single other comic which ends with a cliffhanger about whether the main character is going to die, THIS TIME we can clearly see the ads for all the X-Men and Fantastic Four and Daredevil comics for the next few months, so we know they aren't all really permanently dead! So this story is uniquely bad and without stakes."
posted by straight at 5:06 PM on April 28, 2018 [8 favorites]
I have to say the meta-narrative stuff of you're already making "so-and-so movie 2" so that character isn't dead and by extension pretty much no one is dead; Really ruined it for me. I felt nothing because it was so clear nothing mattered.
Trying to hit these BIG emotional notes while laying the groundwork for "well obviously not REALLY" felt almost... disgustingly cynical to me. Like I left the movie sorta disappointed and have only gotten more and more disappointed with each passing thought about it. This is rapidly dropping down my Marvel fanboy rankings moment by moment.
Like Sophie's Choice with time travel isn't a sad movie anymore, it's not even an effecting movie, it's a tacky ass movie.
posted by French Fry at 6:41 PM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Trying to hit these BIG emotional notes while laying the groundwork for "well obviously not REALLY" felt almost... disgustingly cynical to me. Like I left the movie sorta disappointed and have only gotten more and more disappointed with each passing thought about it. This is rapidly dropping down my Marvel fanboy rankings moment by moment.
Like Sophie's Choice with time travel isn't a sad movie anymore, it's not even an effecting movie, it's a tacky ass movie.
posted by French Fry at 6:41 PM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
there's no way for Agents of SHIELD to incorporate Infinity War's consequences in a way that isn't a complete mess.
I totally agree, but I get the feeling that SHIELD is assuming it's getting canceled anyway. They've given up on that by now anyway, sigh.
She even says "that isn't real love" and then ...apparently uh, the universe thinks it is? Thumbs down on that.
This reminds me of a quote from the book Wild Ride by Jennifer Crusie and Bob Mayer. I don't remember it exactly but it's a saying out of a demon possessed fortunetelling booth and it's something like "He loves you all he can, but he cannot love you enough." Some folks do love, it's just not very good, or shallow, or not enough. I guess the movie's saying that in his own way he cares...just not in any way she'd enjoy.
But yeah, the second I heard that soul thing I knew she was a goner.
Infinity War 2 (we've got to come out with a agreed name for it)
I've decided to call it Avengers: (Half Of) Everybody's Dead, Dave.
So what was the chain of causality that led to Hulk not coming out in this one? He got beat up by Thanos initially and then hid after that?
I'm guessing something happened in the Thanos match to either incapacitate Hulk or scare the shit out of Hulk so much that Hulk refused to come out and face him again. Seemed kinda weird to go from "If Banner Hulks out one more time he'll never come back" in Ragnarok to go to this, though.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:55 PM on April 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
I totally agree, but I get the feeling that SHIELD is assuming it's getting canceled anyway. They've given up on that by now anyway, sigh.
She even says "that isn't real love" and then ...apparently uh, the universe thinks it is? Thumbs down on that.
This reminds me of a quote from the book Wild Ride by Jennifer Crusie and Bob Mayer. I don't remember it exactly but it's a saying out of a demon possessed fortunetelling booth and it's something like "He loves you all he can, but he cannot love you enough." Some folks do love, it's just not very good, or shallow, or not enough. I guess the movie's saying that in his own way he cares...just not in any way she'd enjoy.
But yeah, the second I heard that soul thing I knew she was a goner.
Infinity War 2 (we've got to come out with a agreed name for it)
I've decided to call it Avengers: (Half Of) Everybody's Dead, Dave.
So what was the chain of causality that led to Hulk not coming out in this one? He got beat up by Thanos initially and then hid after that?
I'm guessing something happened in the Thanos match to either incapacitate Hulk or scare the shit out of Hulk so much that Hulk refused to come out and face him again. Seemed kinda weird to go from "If Banner Hulks out one more time he'll never come back" in Ragnarok to go to this, though.
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:55 PM on April 28, 2018 [16 favorites]
Gamora is way less of a big deal than she should be.
Gamora is such a badass that she singlehandedly killed a two-Infinity-Stone-wielding Thanos in the reality where she got to him before he found the Reality Stone and canceled that reality.
Do you think it's the universe saying "you don't actually have the soul stone after all, so things aren't gonna go the way you think"?
I think it's got to be significant that he never actually uses the Soul Stone.
posted by straight at 7:19 PM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Gamora is such a badass that she singlehandedly killed a two-Infinity-Stone-wielding Thanos in the reality where she got to him before he found the Reality Stone and canceled that reality.
Do you think it's the universe saying "you don't actually have the soul stone after all, so things aren't gonna go the way you think"?
I think it's got to be significant that he never actually uses the Soul Stone.
posted by straight at 7:19 PM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Props to Marvel for the somber finale music playing quietly so I could hear all the small children sobbing through the end credits in my theater audience.
Oh, man, my nine-year-old was not ready for this. I had even warned him that I had heard some good guys would die, but he freaking loves Spider-Man, and that scene just destroyed my boy’s heart. He wanted to leave the theater, but I knew there wasn’t much left, so I talked him into staying to see if something more hopeful happened, and that sure didn’t work out. He loved every other Marvel movie, so I thought he’d be fine but I was really wrong. I’m out of the competition for Dad of the Year.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:37 PM on April 28, 2018 [35 favorites]
Oh, man, my nine-year-old was not ready for this. I had even warned him that I had heard some good guys would die, but he freaking loves Spider-Man, and that scene just destroyed my boy’s heart. He wanted to leave the theater, but I knew there wasn’t much left, so I talked him into staying to see if something more hopeful happened, and that sure didn’t work out. He loved every other Marvel movie, so I thought he’d be fine but I was really wrong. I’m out of the competition for Dad of the Year.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:37 PM on April 28, 2018 [35 favorites]
I don't think they will do the Reality A/Reality B thing described here
I am also skeptical of the universe-duplicating gambit. If there is one thing The Mouse is good at, it is craftily reading the market. During the MCU era, they have watched the people across the street at Paramount take their premier franchise (Star Trek, natch) and split it off into an alternate timeline with BMX bikes and Beastie Boys soundtracks and dudebro captains. I can’t imagine Disney wants to follow them down that track.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:01 PM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
I am also skeptical of the universe-duplicating gambit. If there is one thing The Mouse is good at, it is craftily reading the market. During the MCU era, they have watched the people across the street at Paramount take their premier franchise (Star Trek, natch) and split it off into an alternate timeline with BMX bikes and Beastie Boys soundtracks and dudebro captains. I can’t imagine Disney wants to follow them down that track.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:01 PM on April 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Jesus, grandpa, what did you read me this thing for?
It was fun and full of humor and coolness right up until... it wasn't.
I've had nightmares about people dying exactly in the way they did at the end, so that was an extra gut punch on top of the rest of it.
There was a young kid next to me in the theater who seemed absolutely traumatized and did not want to stay for the post-credits bit.
I'd missed Dr. Strange's scrying scene due to a bathroom break, and was *sure* he had pulled a fast one with the green stone. That would be like the comic book Strange I'm used to (from the earlier comics anyway). I thought the first movie was going to end on a quasi-stalemate, Thanos trying to use the time stone only to discover it wasn't, still the most powerful asshole in the universe but not able to fulfill his wish, and deciding to make Earth the next planet he's going to kill half of. Nope!
There was so much stupidity going on. Thanos' entire justification for his insane quest. Everyone going along with the (unlikely) plan to try to save Vision. Quill with his dumbshit immaturity. Gamora not being able to see the obvious multiple times, and deciding *now* is the time to save her sister from her father. Trying to pull the gauntlet off, when Strange could have sling-ringed the gauntlet and hand back to Nepal and in fact the movie showed us that exact thing happening, and no further efforts to disable Thanos when Mantis was struggling to keep him pacified. Strange not doing the cool-ass reality-folding thing that was all over his movie, even once. Hulk just coincidentally deciding not to come out.
So instead we get an ending that (A) makes all the heroes' efforts during the movie pointless, (B) takes all of the humor and fun and then stomps on it and sets it on fire, and (C) we know will be reversed somehow anyhow. It feels like a massive "fuck you" to the audience.
But also: rabbit.
posted by Foosnark at 8:44 PM on April 28, 2018 [27 favorites]
It was fun and full of humor and coolness right up until... it wasn't.
I've had nightmares about people dying exactly in the way they did at the end, so that was an extra gut punch on top of the rest of it.
There was a young kid next to me in the theater who seemed absolutely traumatized and did not want to stay for the post-credits bit.
I'd missed Dr. Strange's scrying scene due to a bathroom break, and was *sure* he had pulled a fast one with the green stone. That would be like the comic book Strange I'm used to (from the earlier comics anyway). I thought the first movie was going to end on a quasi-stalemate, Thanos trying to use the time stone only to discover it wasn't, still the most powerful asshole in the universe but not able to fulfill his wish, and deciding to make Earth the next planet he's going to kill half of. Nope!
There was so much stupidity going on. Thanos' entire justification for his insane quest. Everyone going along with the (unlikely) plan to try to save Vision. Quill with his dumbshit immaturity. Gamora not being able to see the obvious multiple times, and deciding *now* is the time to save her sister from her father. Trying to pull the gauntlet off, when Strange could have sling-ringed the gauntlet and hand back to Nepal and in fact the movie showed us that exact thing happening, and no further efforts to disable Thanos when Mantis was struggling to keep him pacified. Strange not doing the cool-ass reality-folding thing that was all over his movie, even once. Hulk just coincidentally deciding not to come out.
So instead we get an ending that (A) makes all the heroes' efforts during the movie pointless, (B) takes all of the humor and fun and then stomps on it and sets it on fire, and (C) we know will be reversed somehow anyhow. It feels like a massive "fuck you" to the audience.
But also: rabbit.
posted by Foosnark at 8:44 PM on April 28, 2018 [27 favorites]
So I should be in bed but I saw this today and here we go with thoughts:
- My first and major "wait, what?" thought was if Thanos has such a yearning for the Infinity Stones, why did he give one to Loki? He sent his daughters out to find others and had a staff containment system for it... so why give it to Loki?
- Hell, why invade Earth in the first movie at all? At Avengers 1, we had, what the Time stone?
- Okay, so for this movie... Why the rush? Thanos has existed long enough (20+ years since Gamora Acquisition) that a full scale invasion is not needed. Hell, dude did a lot by himself, so why even bother with the Level Bosses/Black Order?
- The two spear wielding Black Order folks were Dark Elves from Thor 2... yes? no? They were certainly Grand Moff Tarkin animated across board.
- I dislike how Thor 3 was cast out the window when Thor 3 did so much work to lead up to this movie. Thor went Super Saiyan in 3 without his hammer and did not do so here.
- I like that Rocket steals body parts is A Thing.
- Every time Thanos encountered a Lone Figure In A Cool Place, I elbowed my wife and muttered something about "Here's Death!" and was proven wrong both times (Red Skull, Baby Ghost Gamora).
- I was ON BOARD for the Red Skull cameo, but it raised my hopes for so much else.
- Dear Marvel, please to make a Okoye / Black Widow buddy road movie.
- I loved Iron Spider and wish it would continue but understand it cannot.
- Which leads me to the ending... After Black Panther's opening, EVERY HUMAN MOVIE GOING PERSON knows there will be a next one. So turning the dude to ash and expecting us to assume it is sticking is feeble, thus all ashings feeble.
- I like the Alternate Words Theory mentioned above, especially if it means Shuri gets to be Iron Heart.
- That said, if Thanos was worried about galactic over population, than maybe he could just make more resources? Which if, Alternate Worlds Theory is true... he sorta did.
- My wife had not seen all of the major movies leading up to this.. and while she was not Plot Lost, she was Emotional Lost, which means the movie tried to cash in some ships it had not earned.
- Nobody cares about Vision.
- All in all.. this is a middle of the pack, made by committee flick that makes me yearn for the Marvel movies where the Corporate Powers did not give a fuck. More self contained stories where continuity is denoted by a cameo, pls.
- Given he recent Disney / FOX dealings, I would not be surprised if the next movie's Universe reset brings the X-Men back into the fold. If that happens, I want a new Scarlet Witch pls. I dunno. SW has a past in the comics where her power level i pretty much whatever is needed at the moment and that bled thru here.
- After all that... I did like it? Maybe? As the glow fades, who knows. Liked for the time being.
- Seriously. Thanos could have had the Stones so much easier if he did not send people to blow up half of a given planet. At the time of Gamora, did he know about the stones and was just out to "save" planets? THAT IS A THING THAT COULD BE PLAYED UP YO.
- In short, it felt like a movie by committee and I am happy that the Russo Bros made the time fly.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:58 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
- My first and major "wait, what?" thought was if Thanos has such a yearning for the Infinity Stones, why did he give one to Loki? He sent his daughters out to find others and had a staff containment system for it... so why give it to Loki?
- Hell, why invade Earth in the first movie at all? At Avengers 1, we had, what the Time stone?
- Okay, so for this movie... Why the rush? Thanos has existed long enough (20+ years since Gamora Acquisition) that a full scale invasion is not needed. Hell, dude did a lot by himself, so why even bother with the Level Bosses/Black Order?
- The two spear wielding Black Order folks were Dark Elves from Thor 2... yes? no? They were certainly Grand Moff Tarkin animated across board.
- I dislike how Thor 3 was cast out the window when Thor 3 did so much work to lead up to this movie. Thor went Super Saiyan in 3 without his hammer and did not do so here.
- I like that Rocket steals body parts is A Thing.
- Every time Thanos encountered a Lone Figure In A Cool Place, I elbowed my wife and muttered something about "Here's Death!" and was proven wrong both times (Red Skull, Baby Ghost Gamora).
- I was ON BOARD for the Red Skull cameo, but it raised my hopes for so much else.
- Dear Marvel, please to make a Okoye / Black Widow buddy road movie.
- I loved Iron Spider and wish it would continue but understand it cannot.
- Which leads me to the ending... After Black Panther's opening, EVERY HUMAN MOVIE GOING PERSON knows there will be a next one. So turning the dude to ash and expecting us to assume it is sticking is feeble, thus all ashings feeble.
- I like the Alternate Words Theory mentioned above, especially if it means Shuri gets to be Iron Heart.
- That said, if Thanos was worried about galactic over population, than maybe he could just make more resources? Which if, Alternate Worlds Theory is true... he sorta did.
- My wife had not seen all of the major movies leading up to this.. and while she was not Plot Lost, she was Emotional Lost, which means the movie tried to cash in some ships it had not earned.
- Nobody cares about Vision.
- All in all.. this is a middle of the pack, made by committee flick that makes me yearn for the Marvel movies where the Corporate Powers did not give a fuck. More self contained stories where continuity is denoted by a cameo, pls.
- Given he recent Disney / FOX dealings, I would not be surprised if the next movie's Universe reset brings the X-Men back into the fold. If that happens, I want a new Scarlet Witch pls. I dunno. SW has a past in the comics where her power level i pretty much whatever is needed at the moment and that bled thru here.
- After all that... I did like it? Maybe? As the glow fades, who knows. Liked for the time being.
- Seriously. Thanos could have had the Stones so much easier if he did not send people to blow up half of a given planet. At the time of Gamora, did he know about the stones and was just out to "save" planets? THAT IS A THING THAT COULD BE PLAYED UP YO.
- In short, it felt like a movie by committee and I am happy that the Russo Bros made the time fly.
posted by robocop is bleeding at 8:58 PM on April 28, 2018 [4 favorites]
And Stark has apparently moved on to full nano-machine magic mode.
As much as I wanted to grumble about Stark's ever-increasingly ridiculous powers, I was too delighted at how far we've come since these movies were afraid to be straight-up Comic Book Superhero Movies. When anything weird had to be attributed to a small handful of Stark Repulsor Tech, Attempts To Recreate The Super-Soldier Formula, and the occasional Asgardian something something.
This is a movie that trusts the audience and the material enough to let Thanos immobilize Black Widow, transform Drax into a 3D Picasso painting, rewind time, or snatch a moon out of orbit, all with no exposition other than the flash of a blue, red, green, or purple gem. Where Spider-Man can grow extra legs and Tony's armor can morph into endless crazy gadgets all justified with the single word "nanotech." And I understand why for cinematic reasons you have to make RDJ powerful enough to face off directly with Thanos. And thematically, MCU Iron Man's whole premise is that he's keeping up in an arms race with all possible bad guys.
Putting Tony and Strange together against the Black Order and then Thanos made for some wonderfully visually-inventive superhero action, the kind of creativity I wished we'd had more of in the Doctor Strange movie. I would have liked to see a little more reality-warping craziness from Thanos and less generic blasting (and I thought the scene of throwing a moon at them was a little disappointing -- they really needed to borrow some visuals there from Secret Wars #4 when the Molecule Man drops an entire mountain range on the Avengers). But I thought they did a really good job in the sequence leading up to almost pulling off the gauntlet (fucking Star Lord) of convincingly overwhelming Thanos with crazy surprise attacks that kept him from concentrating on what he could do. (It helps that he didn't get the Mind Gem until last.) And I think we can assume that when Strange and Thanos are facing off directly, what we see is a somewhat-metaphorical representation of a conflict that is also taking place on deeper levels of reality.
Also, whatever you think of the ethics of the situation, I was impressed with the logistical justification they came up with to setup that silly/awesome hand-to-hand battle in Wakanda - why Thanos's forces couldn't just blast the city from orbit, etc.
posted by straight at 9:02 PM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
As much as I wanted to grumble about Stark's ever-increasingly ridiculous powers, I was too delighted at how far we've come since these movies were afraid to be straight-up Comic Book Superhero Movies. When anything weird had to be attributed to a small handful of Stark Repulsor Tech, Attempts To Recreate The Super-Soldier Formula, and the occasional Asgardian something something.
This is a movie that trusts the audience and the material enough to let Thanos immobilize Black Widow, transform Drax into a 3D Picasso painting, rewind time, or snatch a moon out of orbit, all with no exposition other than the flash of a blue, red, green, or purple gem. Where Spider-Man can grow extra legs and Tony's armor can morph into endless crazy gadgets all justified with the single word "nanotech." And I understand why for cinematic reasons you have to make RDJ powerful enough to face off directly with Thanos. And thematically, MCU Iron Man's whole premise is that he's keeping up in an arms race with all possible bad guys.
Putting Tony and Strange together against the Black Order and then Thanos made for some wonderfully visually-inventive superhero action, the kind of creativity I wished we'd had more of in the Doctor Strange movie. I would have liked to see a little more reality-warping craziness from Thanos and less generic blasting (and I thought the scene of throwing a moon at them was a little disappointing -- they really needed to borrow some visuals there from Secret Wars #4 when the Molecule Man drops an entire mountain range on the Avengers). But I thought they did a really good job in the sequence leading up to almost pulling off the gauntlet (fucking Star Lord) of convincingly overwhelming Thanos with crazy surprise attacks that kept him from concentrating on what he could do. (It helps that he didn't get the Mind Gem until last.) And I think we can assume that when Strange and Thanos are facing off directly, what we see is a somewhat-metaphorical representation of a conflict that is also taking place on deeper levels of reality.
Also, whatever you think of the ethics of the situation, I was impressed with the logistical justification they came up with to setup that silly/awesome hand-to-hand battle in Wakanda - why Thanos's forces couldn't just blast the city from orbit, etc.
posted by straight at 9:02 PM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Scarlet Witch apparently has infinity-stone level powers all by herself.
Wanda and Pietro got their powers from experiments Strucker was doing with Loki's Mind Gem staff, so it kind of makes sense she could have the power to destroy it.
posted by straight at 9:10 PM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Wanda and Pietro got their powers from experiments Strucker was doing with Loki's Mind Gem staff, so it kind of makes sense she could have the power to destroy it.
posted by straight at 9:10 PM on April 28, 2018 [7 favorites]
Infinity War 2 (we've got to come out with a agreed name for it)
Thanos: The Hand of Fate?
posted by zarq at 9:20 PM on April 28, 2018 [107 favorites]
Thanos: The Hand of Fate?
posted by zarq at 9:20 PM on April 28, 2018 [107 favorites]
There was a young kid next to me in the theater who seemed absolutely traumatized and did not want to stay for the post-credits bit.
The more I think about it, the more I think it was Not Okay for Marvel to throw this one at us without any real warning for parents of younger kids. They clearly wanted the suspense and the shocker as their hype for the follow-up... which isn't gonna be until next year. I'm sure a lot of kids will be fine, but this is one where parents should be trusted to know their kids and make that call.
If a parent brought their kid to Deadpool and was shocked by what they saw, that's on them. This thing? A PG-13 rating covers a huge range from "meh" to "WTF," and Marvel has built a long track of not giving us these kinds of endings. I feel like the hype should've included some actual cautionary messaging.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:27 PM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
The more I think about it, the more I think it was Not Okay for Marvel to throw this one at us without any real warning for parents of younger kids. They clearly wanted the suspense and the shocker as their hype for the follow-up... which isn't gonna be until next year. I'm sure a lot of kids will be fine, but this is one where parents should be trusted to know their kids and make that call.
If a parent brought their kid to Deadpool and was shocked by what they saw, that's on them. This thing? A PG-13 rating covers a huge range from "meh" to "WTF," and Marvel has built a long track of not giving us these kinds of endings. I feel like the hype should've included some actual cautionary messaging.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 9:27 PM on April 28, 2018 [6 favorites]
Oh, man, my nine-year-old was not ready for this. I had even warned him that I had heard some good guys would die, but he freaking loves Spider-Man, and that scene just destroyed my boy’s heart. He wanted to leave the theater, but I knew there wasn’t much left, so I talked him into staying to see if something more hopeful happened, and that sure didn’t work out. He loved every other Marvel movie, so I thought he’d be fine but I was really wrong. I’m out of the competition for Dad of the Year.
Oh man. I'm so sorry. :(
My 10yo son had asked me on Friday morning if I would take him to see it. I sat him down today and spoiled the movie for him. I explained how many heroes died, and how. ("What do you mean, Rocket was the only one of the Guardians left?!") He was pretty upset, but didn't really crack until I was nearly done. I left Spider-Man for last. I explained that Peter was scared, and begged Iron Man to not let him die. My son loves Spider-Man. Has a small sketch of Spidey signed by John Romita from Comic-Con on his wall. His most prized possession. My kid didn't even watch the film, but the idea that Spidey had died in fear hit him very, very hard.
So I asked him, do you still want to go? Because you see, the ending is very sad and might be hard to watch.
And he looked at me with tears in his eyes and said, "Not in a movie theater. Maybe at home. With you. With all the lights on."
I explained that Spider-Man was probably going to survive. He has a sequel film coming out, after all. We talked about the time stone and the reality stone and how the next film would probably have some heroes who come back to life. Gotta give the kid some hope.
I think he will be skipping this one for a while.
posted by zarq at 9:34 PM on April 28, 2018 [41 favorites]
Oh man. I'm so sorry. :(
My 10yo son had asked me on Friday morning if I would take him to see it. I sat him down today and spoiled the movie for him. I explained how many heroes died, and how. ("What do you mean, Rocket was the only one of the Guardians left?!") He was pretty upset, but didn't really crack until I was nearly done. I left Spider-Man for last. I explained that Peter was scared, and begged Iron Man to not let him die. My son loves Spider-Man. Has a small sketch of Spidey signed by John Romita from Comic-Con on his wall. His most prized possession. My kid didn't even watch the film, but the idea that Spidey had died in fear hit him very, very hard.
So I asked him, do you still want to go? Because you see, the ending is very sad and might be hard to watch.
And he looked at me with tears in his eyes and said, "Not in a movie theater. Maybe at home. With you. With all the lights on."
I explained that Spider-Man was probably going to survive. He has a sequel film coming out, after all. We talked about the time stone and the reality stone and how the next film would probably have some heroes who come back to life. Gotta give the kid some hope.
I think he will be skipping this one for a while.
posted by zarq at 9:34 PM on April 28, 2018 [41 favorites]
Hey, if Thanos likes balance so much, why does he wear all six stones on his left hand? Six is an even number, he could do two gauntlets.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:02 PM on April 28, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 10:02 PM on April 28, 2018 [15 favorites]
I knew something was up with the Hulkbuster effects.
posted by gerryblog at 10:46 PM on April 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by gerryblog at 10:46 PM on April 28, 2018 [11 favorites]
So instead we get an ending that (A) makes all the heroes' efforts during the movie pointless, (B) takes all of the humor and fun and then stomps on it and sets it on fire, and (C) we know will be reversed somehow anyhow.
Yeah, that was pretty clear from the getgo as far as I could tell before the movie came out. I debated waiting to watch it until right before the sequel comes out, but you can't live a geek life without knowing what's going on here for a year. And well, I figured once T'Challa disappeared that they're going to have to undo it somehow in the next movie because we know a lot of those dead guys have movies coming up. I probably would have been more disturbed had all the guys whose contracts are up died instead, which I was expecting.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:50 PM on April 28, 2018
Yeah, that was pretty clear from the getgo as far as I could tell before the movie came out. I debated waiting to watch it until right before the sequel comes out, but you can't live a geek life without knowing what's going on here for a year. And well, I figured once T'Challa disappeared that they're going to have to undo it somehow in the next movie because we know a lot of those dead guys have movies coming up. I probably would have been more disturbed had all the guys whose contracts are up died instead, which I was expecting.
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:50 PM on April 28, 2018
I think that I've already made this point upthread, but just because it's reasonably certain that the murdered half of the universe will be resurrected, that doesn't mean that we won't have some casualties even after the reset button is hit. Strictly speaking, just because there's a Spider-Man movie, that doesn't mean that there will be a Peter Parker movie. (Probably, since Tom Holland did such a great job here and in Homecoming, but it's not 100% certain.) Ditto for Black Panther maybe being Shuri. All we know is that it seems quite likely that the next phase involves Marvel Cosmic, thus Captain Marvel, probably Adam Warlock, possibly Nova, and that Avengers IV has already been shot, barring any reshoots or odd things like that Hulk/Hulkbuster swap-out.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:07 PM on April 28, 2018
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:07 PM on April 28, 2018
I would love to see some sort of passing the torch between Downey Jr. and whatever actor ends up playing Reed Richards (I like Andrew Lincoln) to be the “big brain” of the next season of movies.
I will only accept this if Shuri is always there with ALL THE CONDESCENSION.
Every time Thanos encountered a Lone Figure In A Cool Place, I elbowed my wife and muttered something about "Here's Death!" and was proven wrong both times (Red Skull, Baby Ghost Gamora)
I was hoping for a Cate Blanchett cameo doing some more scene chewing as Hela.
posted by romakimmy at 11:28 PM on April 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
I will only accept this if Shuri is always there with ALL THE CONDESCENSION.
Every time Thanos encountered a Lone Figure In A Cool Place, I elbowed my wife and muttered something about "Here's Death!" and was proven wrong both times (Red Skull, Baby Ghost Gamora)
I was hoping for a Cate Blanchett cameo doing some more scene chewing as Hela.
posted by romakimmy at 11:28 PM on April 28, 2018 [12 favorites]
I love the A/B theory even though it doesn't really fix the meta issues because I can't imagine a Black Panther 2 without Okoye and M’Baku or a Guardians 3 without Rocket. But the worst problem with it is that however fine it would be for Tony, Steve, Natasha, Thor, and the other A-reality characters to say goodbye and sacrifice themselves to defeat Thanos in the next movie, it would still be a catastrophic defeat for the Avengers if all the other 50% of the universe's population in the A-reality were not saved in the end. It's not going to be a happy ending unless almost everybody besides the Avengers gets brought back together in the same universe.
Nevertheless, how amazingly great would it be for Avengers 4 to open with Spider-Man watching in horror as Mr. Stark fades away, Bucky watching Steve disappear, T'Challa reaching out in vain to save a disintegrating Okoye, etc?
If nothing else, the wipeout of half the universe's population felt like an enthusiastic Fuck You to the television side of the Marvel Cinematic Universe and any attempts to make those TV sidestories fit into the MCU movies' timeline.
For all we know, Avengers 3 & 4 might take place entirely within the space of a day or two and be entirely resolved between 2 episodes of Agents of SHIELD. Who knows if the rest of the world will even remember the Great Genocide when this is all over? It might just be a "There was some weird alien thing in New York last week, but the Avengers took care of it, I guess." "Wasn't there also something going on in Africa last week? Was it like in...Bangalla or something?"
posted by straight at 1:12 AM on April 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
Nevertheless, how amazingly great would it be for Avengers 4 to open with Spider-Man watching in horror as Mr. Stark fades away, Bucky watching Steve disappear, T'Challa reaching out in vain to save a disintegrating Okoye, etc?
If nothing else, the wipeout of half the universe's population felt like an enthusiastic Fuck You to the television side of the Marvel Cinematic Universe and any attempts to make those TV sidestories fit into the MCU movies' timeline.
For all we know, Avengers 3 & 4 might take place entirely within the space of a day or two and be entirely resolved between 2 episodes of Agents of SHIELD. Who knows if the rest of the world will even remember the Great Genocide when this is all over? It might just be a "There was some weird alien thing in New York last week, but the Avengers took care of it, I guess." "Wasn't there also something going on in Africa last week? Was it like in...Bangalla or something?"
posted by straight at 1:12 AM on April 29, 2018 [12 favorites]
I think this was a very successful crossover movie, like, shockingly so. Kudos to the Russos for that, they were juggling a hell of a lot, and it mostly held together. (As much as a comics movie ever does, anyway.)
However--and this isn't entirely a failure of the movie so much as it is a consequence of being genre-savvy, aware of meta-narrative stuff like actor contracts, Marvel economics, and comics nonsense--the stakes are nonexistent for me. Most of my favorite characters just dissolved into dust, and I felt about two minutes of total, abject horror, before it faded into me wanting to laugh, because really, Marvel? Really? Bold choice, but this was half a movie and I assume all these people are coming back.
It was genuinely weird watching everyone dissolve because on one level: DEEPLY, DEEPLY UPSETTING. AHAHAHA STEVE RAN HIS FINGERS THROUGH BUCKY'S ASHES I WILL NEVER BE OKAY. OKOYE'S LITTLE DISBELIEVING "MY KING?" PETER PARKER'S LUDICROUS YET DEEPLY DEVASTATING DEATH. Also, what a deeply creepy and upsetting visual effect. It's legit nightmarish. On the other level: see laughter. Like, I see what you're probably doing here, Marvel, and I'm both impressed and rolling my eyes.
To me, this is like a comics crossover event: optional. I'll do my fandom "around" it, so to speak. Like, join me in the corner of fandom that's gonna write 1938401 Weekends in Wakanda fics set pre-Infinity War, about the Cap team and Black Panther cast.
posted by yasaman at 1:37 AM on April 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
However--and this isn't entirely a failure of the movie so much as it is a consequence of being genre-savvy, aware of meta-narrative stuff like actor contracts, Marvel economics, and comics nonsense--the stakes are nonexistent for me. Most of my favorite characters just dissolved into dust, and I felt about two minutes of total, abject horror, before it faded into me wanting to laugh, because really, Marvel? Really? Bold choice, but this was half a movie and I assume all these people are coming back.
It was genuinely weird watching everyone dissolve because on one level: DEEPLY, DEEPLY UPSETTING. AHAHAHA STEVE RAN HIS FINGERS THROUGH BUCKY'S ASHES I WILL NEVER BE OKAY. OKOYE'S LITTLE DISBELIEVING "MY KING?" PETER PARKER'S LUDICROUS YET DEEPLY DEVASTATING DEATH. Also, what a deeply creepy and upsetting visual effect. It's legit nightmarish. On the other level: see laughter. Like, I see what you're probably doing here, Marvel, and I'm both impressed and rolling my eyes.
To me, this is like a comics crossover event: optional. I'll do my fandom "around" it, so to speak. Like, join me in the corner of fandom that's gonna write 1938401 Weekends in Wakanda fics set pre-Infinity War, about the Cap team and Black Panther cast.
posted by yasaman at 1:37 AM on April 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
That seems perilously close to saying you can't take any movie stories seriously because you know it's all just actors playing pretend.
posted by straight at 1:48 AM on April 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:48 AM on April 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
I love a bit of back and forth, straight, but to me you're coming across a bit weirdly defensive and pushy in some of your responses. I know you loved the movie, but people are allowed to disagree.
posted by smoke at 1:56 AM on April 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by smoke at 1:56 AM on April 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Also, I loved This post-credits rap. My session played out a little different.
posted by smoke at 2:25 AM on April 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by smoke at 2:25 AM on April 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
I don’t want to hear anything about how “Guardians of the Galaxy: Vol. 3” could maybe, possibly, actually occur before “Infinity War,” despite hitting theaters two years later.
Except, this is literally what is happening with the next two films: Antman and the Wasp is set pre-Infinity War and Captain Marvel is set in the 90s.
posted by crossoverman at 2:26 AM on April 29, 2018
Except, this is literally what is happening with the next two films: Antman and the Wasp is set pre-Infinity War and Captain Marvel is set in the 90s.
posted by crossoverman at 2:26 AM on April 29, 2018
But, given that Tony had a flip phone and Nick Fury used a pager in this movie, do we know that this one wasn't set in the 90s as well?
posted by peppermind at 4:09 AM on April 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by peppermind at 4:09 AM on April 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
That's not Kamala Khan's symbol, doofus. There's never been a character named "Ms. Marvel" who used that star and color combination.
Oddly enough, the zigzag line that appeared on the pager symbol (see 1.46 in this YT vid) doesn't seem to be the one that the pics of Brie Larson is wearing, which has a straight line dividing the red and blue (and Larsen has also been seen in a green/grey combo).
But anyway, here is a pic of Karla Sofen's Ms. Marvel, which definitely does have the red/blue combo with star.
posted by biffa at 4:47 AM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oddly enough, the zigzag line that appeared on the pager symbol (see 1.46 in this YT vid) doesn't seem to be the one that the pics of Brie Larson is wearing, which has a straight line dividing the red and blue (and Larsen has also been seen in a green/grey combo).
But anyway, here is a pic of Karla Sofen's Ms. Marvel, which definitely does have the red/blue combo with star.
posted by biffa at 4:47 AM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
But, given that Tony had a flip phone and Nick Fury used a pager in this movie, do we know that this one wasn't set in the 90s as well?
I thought the little joke with the flip phone is that if Steve Rogers of all people was to pass you a burner phone that's exactly what it would look like. And the Captain Marvel pager is a pager because she and Fury set it up in 1994.
posted by thecjm at 5:47 AM on April 29, 2018 [19 favorites]
- I like the Alternate Words Theory mentioned above, especially if it means Shuri gets to be Iron Heart.
Shuri isn't Iron Heart in the comics. That's an entirely different young black woman - Riri Williams. I really hope they don't combine the two characters because of that.
posted by thecjm at 5:49 AM on April 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Shuri isn't Iron Heart in the comics. That's an entirely different young black woman - Riri Williams. I really hope they don't combine the two characters because of that.
posted by thecjm at 5:49 AM on April 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
somehow avoided being a total clusterfuck with so many characters, not to mention the fun interactions between teaming up characters you wouldn't expect.
It does deserve credit for that. It somehow didn't feel like a movie crowded with too many characters, even though some previous MCU movies did. Granted, some really cool characters got about 15 seconds of generic fighty screen time and one quip.
posted by Foosnark at 6:23 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
It does deserve credit for that. It somehow didn't feel like a movie crowded with too many characters, even though some previous MCU movies did. Granted, some really cool characters got about 15 seconds of generic fighty screen time and one quip.
posted by Foosnark at 6:23 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I wish, when Thanos called Spidey an "insect", Peter had corrected him.
posted by Foosnark at 6:28 AM on April 29, 2018 [43 favorites]
posted by Foosnark at 6:28 AM on April 29, 2018 [43 favorites]
The interesting question here is whether Marvel will have the guts to bring the dead back at a cost. If somebody just snaps their fingers and people return, then yeah, it's cheap. If it's an epic struggle where not everyone comes back and those that do feel the emotional weight of the death/resurrection, then it could be a really good story.
I'm not betting any particular way at this point. The Russo's and Marvel have entertained the fuck out of me for years now, I'm content to go along for the ride.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:37 AM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm not betting any particular way at this point. The Russo's and Marvel have entertained the fuck out of me for years now, I'm content to go along for the ride.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:37 AM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm assuming those fake rap credits "playing in theaters" are fake once I saw the name "Chadwick Boseman-Hemsworth." And all the other Hemsworths. And LMM. And, and, and...
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:40 AM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:40 AM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
you kids would have lost your goddamned mind if you were alive to see esb in the theater. not only was it an incredibly dark ending for the time, but we had to wait three years—THREE YEARS—to see the next part
*shakes his cane*
posted by entropicamericana at 8:01 AM on April 29, 2018 [36 favorites]
*shakes his cane*
posted by entropicamericana at 8:01 AM on April 29, 2018 [36 favorites]
My only answer to all the what ifs/why nots is that Strange saw all those outcomes leading to ultimate defeat. This includes ones where they manage to get the gauntlet off Thanos. Thanos still prevails in the end in all such scenarios. Sure maybe thats a copout but it works for me.
posted by asra at 8:05 AM on April 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by asra at 8:05 AM on April 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Oddly enough, the zigzag line that appeared on the pager symbol (see 1.46 in this YT vid) doesn't seem to be the one that the pics of Brie Larson is wearing, which has a straight line dividing the red and blue
You linked to a fan photoshop. I don't think they've released any official pictures of Larson in the red-and-blue uniform. The Ms. Marvel costume has a different star, lacks the yellow stripe between the colors, and reverses them (much darker black/blue above the star, red below it).
posted by straight at 8:35 AM on April 29, 2018
You linked to a fan photoshop. I don't think they've released any official pictures of Larson in the red-and-blue uniform. The Ms. Marvel costume has a different star, lacks the yellow stripe between the colors, and reverses them (much darker black/blue above the star, red below it).
posted by straight at 8:35 AM on April 29, 2018
That seems perilously close to saying you can't take any movie stories seriously because you know it's all just actors playing pretend.
That absolutely isn't it for me. You're talking to someone who's been in MCU fandom for like over five years. Like, I assure you, I took Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Captain America: Civil War pretty seriously. I believed those movies' stakes, same with Black Panther and Thor Ragnarok. I have trouble believing in this one's stakes: they're just too high. I agree with Todd VanDerWerff:
posted by yasaman at 9:02 AM on April 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
That absolutely isn't it for me. You're talking to someone who's been in MCU fandom for like over five years. Like, I assure you, I took Captain America: The Winter Soldier and Captain America: Civil War pretty seriously. I believed those movies' stakes, same with Black Panther and Thor Ragnarok. I have trouble believing in this one's stakes: they're just too high. I agree with Todd VanDerWerff:
All of these emotional moments that only half land contribute to the feeling that Infinity War’s cliffhanger can’t possibly hope to live up to the massive emotional weight of what happens.Infinity War is effectively half a movie, and I'm mostly just annoyed I have to wait a year for the rest of it, when I assume my faves will come back to life, and my other faves will bite the dust permanently (putting off that mourning for Steve Rogers for another year!).
What’s more, the choice to largely wipe from existence characters who are more or less vital to the future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe as a going concern (especially Star-Lord, Spider-Man, and freakin’ Black Panther) so dramatically inflates the stakes that it becomes all but certain the next movie will reverse most of these deaths.
Had the film wiped out the original team of Avengers, leaving the next movie to focus on this new batch of heroes battling to save the old ones and realizing it was their turn to take up the mantle of Avengers, the film might have had something. As it is, everything feels like a bait and switch.
posted by yasaman at 9:02 AM on April 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Googling info on Captain Marvel led me to realize I was confusing Brie Larson for Allison Brie, and now I'm kind of disappointed.
posted by jeoc at 9:11 AM on April 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by jeoc at 9:11 AM on April 29, 2018 [13 favorites]
I like the elegance of the multiverse theory, but I don’t think that’s the direction they’re going to go in for one simple reason: if the resolution is that there are now two different universes, It would have made much more sense from a viewer expectation angle to show the original Avengers dusting, since we already know that their time in the MCU is coming to an end.
Then the ending would be more shocking and more of a “did they just do that...?” than it is now, since for example we know that Tom Holland is literally filming a Spider-Man sequel as we speak.
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:12 AM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Then the ending would be more shocking and more of a “did they just do that...?” than it is now, since for example we know that Tom Holland is literally filming a Spider-Man sequel as we speak.
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:12 AM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
(Or: what yasaman just posted while I was thumb-typing.)
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:14 AM on April 29, 2018
posted by Ian A.T. at 9:14 AM on April 29, 2018
You linked to a fan photoshop
Aaaah, I did wonder, should have checked properly.
posted by biffa at 9:15 AM on April 29, 2018
Aaaah, I did wonder, should have checked properly.
posted by biffa at 9:15 AM on April 29, 2018
My bestie, the self described Vulcan, told me to bring tissues, so I expected to be flattened. Instead... I don't know. I wasn't flattened, even by Peter, even when someone behind me was gasping "Not Spidey too!" (our theater was ready to revolt). It was too much. I think it's going to get fixed. So I'm curious as to how they're going to resolve this but other than that, kind of indifferent, which is not what I was expecting from this movie.
(Meantime, I have MCU - Mission Impossible crossover crackfic to write, because clearly the Cap crew has been doing something to keep themselves busy for two years.)
posted by joycehealy at 9:16 AM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
(Meantime, I have MCU - Mission Impossible crossover crackfic to write, because clearly the Cap crew has been doing something to keep themselves busy for two years.)
posted by joycehealy at 9:16 AM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
The more I think about it, the more I think it was Not Okay for Marvel to throw this one at us without any real warning for parents of younger kids.
I wonder at the traumatized kids (my theatre had some audible sobbing going on) and how as young adults in fifteen or twenty years, they will look back at this. Will this be the moment where a generation gets cynical about bait-and-switch tactics when all of their childhood heroes were disintegrated for a year and then everyone was fine?
And I remain skeptical about the possibility of a Reality A/B trick. Remember, it is not just a dozen or so heroes who vanish: it is apparently half of everyone: the Wakandan warriors we see, the implicit driver of the car and pilot of the helicopter in the post-credits scene, and presumably billions of others on Earth alone. Do they all turn up on an alternate Earth where there are billions of others already? Or perhaps they turn up on an empty pre-industrial Earth, which seems strange and unlikely.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:16 AM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I wonder at the traumatized kids (my theatre had some audible sobbing going on) and how as young adults in fifteen or twenty years, they will look back at this. Will this be the moment where a generation gets cynical about bait-and-switch tactics when all of their childhood heroes were disintegrated for a year and then everyone was fine?
And I remain skeptical about the possibility of a Reality A/B trick. Remember, it is not just a dozen or so heroes who vanish: it is apparently half of everyone: the Wakandan warriors we see, the implicit driver of the car and pilot of the helicopter in the post-credits scene, and presumably billions of others on Earth alone. Do they all turn up on an alternate Earth where there are billions of others already? Or perhaps they turn up on an empty pre-industrial Earth, which seems strange and unlikely.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 9:16 AM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I also wonder if the ticket sales are going to tank in the coming weeks, moreso than is usual for a blockbuster superhero movie. I wouldn't be surprised if so. I saw Captain America: The Winter Soldier twice in theaters, Black Panther three times, and Thor Ragnarok twice. I'm not intending to see this one again. I might be up for a back to back showing with, you know, the rest of the movie next year, but otherwise, talk to me when/if the Black Panther four hour cut and Captain Marvel are out, Marvel.
posted by yasaman at 9:31 AM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 9:31 AM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
Avengers 4 will be a retooling of the original premise with the remaining Avengers moving to Jarden, TX, where nobody was turned to dust.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:34 AM on April 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 9:34 AM on April 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
Avengers 4: The Leftovers
posted by zarq at 9:38 AM on April 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by zarq at 9:38 AM on April 29, 2018 [15 favorites]
anybody who thinks most of the dead will not be returning has obviously never read a comic book
posted by entropicamericana at 10:14 AM on April 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by entropicamericana at 10:14 AM on April 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
I think it makes a lot of sense that the only Avengers left standing are the originals from the first movie. Having them sacrifice themselves to bring back half of all existence is a fantastic send off and completely worthy of their arcs. Hopefully that is what this is all about. If they pull a whole time loop or someone grabs the gauntlet and does an unsnap and everyone survives I am going to be done with it all. For me that's the worst part of comics, that "limitless power arms race", and so far the MCU has (mostly, looking at you Dr Strange) avoided a lot of it and stayed grounded.
My biggest complaint is the whole "there is no IW p2 anymore it's all going to be 1 movie now" crap Marvel has pulled for the last year or so. A lot of people I know were worried this one was going to be a huge letdown because 2.5hrs is just not enough time to do anything with the vast amount of characters. 2 movies provides much more room for proper farewells.
I really wish they had done a Matrix(y) sort of thing with Part 1 in April and Part 2 in October.
Did anyone else notice they totally did the "black-guy-dies-first" trope? That was so cold.
posted by M Edward at 10:26 AM on April 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
My biggest complaint is the whole "there is no IW p2 anymore it's all going to be 1 movie now" crap Marvel has pulled for the last year or so. A lot of people I know were worried this one was going to be a huge letdown because 2.5hrs is just not enough time to do anything with the vast amount of characters. 2 movies provides much more room for proper farewells.
I really wish they had done a Matrix(y) sort of thing with Part 1 in April and Part 2 in October.
Did anyone else notice they totally did the "black-guy-dies-first" trope? That was so cold.
posted by M Edward at 10:26 AM on April 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
That seems perilously close to saying you can't take any movie stories seriously because you know it's all just actors playing pretend.
Those don’t seem close at all to me. There is a huge difference between saying “I can’t get emotionally connected to any fictional story because it’s fiction” and “I can’t really emotionally invest in the death of characters that I know, with absolute certainty, are not going to stay dead.” I also thought Marvel overshot here. The deaths that seem likely permanent (Loki, Gamora, Vision) were still gripping. Everything else fell flat for me, because you know it’s not really the end. Plus, I was distracted by my son weeping and asking to leave. It was a dreadful combo of “didn’t do much for adults/devastated the children” as far as our family was concerned.
Not that it was a bad movie. It’s not, but most of those deaths aren’t believable.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:31 AM on April 29, 2018
Those don’t seem close at all to me. There is a huge difference between saying “I can’t get emotionally connected to any fictional story because it’s fiction” and “I can’t really emotionally invest in the death of characters that I know, with absolute certainty, are not going to stay dead.” I also thought Marvel overshot here. The deaths that seem likely permanent (Loki, Gamora, Vision) were still gripping. Everything else fell flat for me, because you know it’s not really the end. Plus, I was distracted by my son weeping and asking to leave. It was a dreadful combo of “didn’t do much for adults/devastated the children” as far as our family was concerned.
Not that it was a bad movie. It’s not, but most of those deaths aren’t believable.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 10:31 AM on April 29, 2018
Weekends in Wakanda fics
This is what we need.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:38 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is what we need.
posted by LobsterMitten at 10:38 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Now I'm gutted not to have stayed around for the weeping children. I didn't notice any and the screening I went to was full of kids. Maybe I can just be proud that British kids don't go in for that.
I still think that Taylor Kitsch should have been the Winter Soldier. Close ups on Stan's hair always make it look plastic. It was the same in CA2 and 3.
posted by biffa at 10:45 AM on April 29, 2018
I still think that Taylor Kitsch should have been the Winter Soldier. Close ups on Stan's hair always make it look plastic. It was the same in CA2 and 3.
posted by biffa at 10:45 AM on April 29, 2018
Based on these set photos of Thor & Loki, I have a new Grand Sappy Theory:
1. Remaining Avengers time-travel back to post-Battle of New York 2012 to grab the Tesseract (and possibly Mjolnir and/or Loki)
2. Avengers use Tesseract to teleport to Volmir a la Red Skull
3. Screw sacrificial murder, everyone jumps off Volmir's sacrifice mountain TOGETHER
4. Voilà Soul Stone, Avengers Forever
Now how do they time-travel? Details, details! A magic monolith did it!
posted by nicebookrack at 10:48 AM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
1. Remaining Avengers time-travel back to post-Battle of New York 2012 to grab the Tesseract (and possibly Mjolnir and/or Loki)
2. Avengers use Tesseract to teleport to Volmir a la Red Skull
3. Screw sacrificial murder, everyone jumps off Volmir's sacrifice mountain TOGETHER
4. Voilà Soul Stone, Avengers Forever
Now how do they time-travel? Details, details! A magic monolith did it!
posted by nicebookrack at 10:48 AM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
I seem to find myself weirdly at odds with most of the rest of metafilter when it comes to movies. Stuff I like (like this one), most of y'all seem to dislike, stuff I loathe (Baby Driver) most of y'all seem to love, and even for the ones where we agree (A Quiet Place), I end up disliking it for a completely different reason from the one most of you appear to dislike it for.
I say it's weird because this does not seem to be the case with books. Just movies.
posted by kyrademon at 10:54 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I say it's weird because this does not seem to be the case with books. Just movies.
posted by kyrademon at 10:54 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think their plan is to launch a standalone Thanos film next. Thanos is the Scrooge-like workaholic dad that has put his career above everything, including his own family. Now that he's finally successful, he's going to retire but he'll be bored at home and be going across universe in his RV watching sunsets on different planets. And with eternity to think things over, he'll realize he's focused so much on eliminating half of life in the universe that he's ignored the truly important things in life.
Then in some pivotal scene someone will ask:
"Did your daughter know that you loved her?"
Thanos: "Yes, I made the painful sacrifice of throwing her off the cliff to get the Soul Gem."
"No, I mean did you actually ever tell her that?"
And then we'll see Thanos deep in thought and his eyes will widen as it sinks in: I've become my own parents.
posted by FJT at 10:54 AM on April 29, 2018 [37 favorites]
Then in some pivotal scene someone will ask:
"Did your daughter know that you loved her?"
Thanos: "Yes, I made the painful sacrifice of throwing her off the cliff to get the Soul Gem."
"No, I mean did you actually ever tell her that?"
And then we'll see Thanos deep in thought and his eyes will widen as it sinks in: I've become my own parents.
posted by FJT at 10:54 AM on April 29, 2018 [37 favorites]
I would feel better if I DID dislike this movie, so I could reject it from reality and substitute my own canon. Instead I loved all the bits that didn't hurt me, and even those bits I found heartbreakingly well done.
like it doesn’t even matter that they aren’t all going to stay dead, i still had to watch them die with my own two eyes and that is not something i intend to forgive marvel for
posted by nicebookrack at 11:10 AM on April 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
like it doesn’t even matter that they aren’t all going to stay dead, i still had to watch them die with my own two eyes and that is not something i intend to forgive marvel for
posted by nicebookrack at 11:10 AM on April 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Yeah, I did like this movie! Like, for comparison, I hated Age of Ultron and will still rant about it at the drop of a hat. With Infinity War, there's stuff that I felt could have been done better, and I obviously wanted more of my Team Cap and Wakanda favorites, but I thought this was a great Avengers movie, and a shockingly successful giant crossover movie. But I still had to watch Bucky Barnes, Sam Wilson, T'Challa, and precious Spiderbaby Peter Parker dissolve into dust with my own two eyes and that is extremely not okay and never will be.
posted by yasaman at 11:23 AM on April 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 11:23 AM on April 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
if the resolution is that there are now two different universes, It would have made much more sense from a viewer expectation angle to show the original Avengers dusting, since we already know that their time in the MCU is coming to an end.
See, I completely disagree. If you see the originals dusting, you don’t know if they’re alive in another universe, or if they actually died. This gives you the emotional weight of their loss without them having to die. Also, I’m trying to remember if Spidey didn’t want to die, or he didn’t want to go.
For me the biggest evidence that Reality A/B is false is the image of Hulk in Wakanda. But that could be similar to images of Hela in New York for the Thor trailer. An original concept discarded on the editing floor.
The Capt Marvel bit at the end seems like a misdirection to me because Thanos has the Power Stone before the movie. He already went through the Nova Corp and dismantled them. If Capt Marvel wasn’t part of that fight, there has to be a weird explanation. If she was, then why do we think she’ll be able to save them now? - One explanation I’ve considered is that Capt Marvel is closer to the Capt Britain corps than the Nova Corps. That gives us a multiverse and also Roma, interested in putting them back together to maintain order. This story was clearly House of M, why not borrow from Excalibur?
And yes, I definitely side eyed Heimdahl’s death. But of the remaining Asgardians, he seemed least wanting to continue in the series. So giving him a heroes death seemed preferable to him just not showing up later without explanation. And not showing Valkyrie and Korg gives me hope they’re part of the new reality.
Also, I completely disagree that Star Trek weirdness is reason they wouldn’t reboot the multiverse. They just got Fox and need a way to integrate mutants into their shared cinematic universe. Mutants who really successfully used the multiverse to come back from Xmen 3. The fact that Disney must have been close on the Fox deal when they unannounced Part 2?
I’m guessing the reveal will happen at the end of Ant Man and the Wasp, since it’s happening “before” infinity war, but they’re still unavailable during Infinity War.
posted by politikitty at 11:39 AM on April 29, 2018
See, I completely disagree. If you see the originals dusting, you don’t know if they’re alive in another universe, or if they actually died. This gives you the emotional weight of their loss without them having to die. Also, I’m trying to remember if Spidey didn’t want to die, or he didn’t want to go.
For me the biggest evidence that Reality A/B is false is the image of Hulk in Wakanda. But that could be similar to images of Hela in New York for the Thor trailer. An original concept discarded on the editing floor.
The Capt Marvel bit at the end seems like a misdirection to me because Thanos has the Power Stone before the movie. He already went through the Nova Corp and dismantled them. If Capt Marvel wasn’t part of that fight, there has to be a weird explanation. If she was, then why do we think she’ll be able to save them now? - One explanation I’ve considered is that Capt Marvel is closer to the Capt Britain corps than the Nova Corps. That gives us a multiverse and also Roma, interested in putting them back together to maintain order. This story was clearly House of M, why not borrow from Excalibur?
And yes, I definitely side eyed Heimdahl’s death. But of the remaining Asgardians, he seemed least wanting to continue in the series. So giving him a heroes death seemed preferable to him just not showing up later without explanation. And not showing Valkyrie and Korg gives me hope they’re part of the new reality.
Also, I completely disagree that Star Trek weirdness is reason they wouldn’t reboot the multiverse. They just got Fox and need a way to integrate mutants into their shared cinematic universe. Mutants who really successfully used the multiverse to come back from Xmen 3. The fact that Disney must have been close on the Fox deal when they unannounced Part 2?
I’m guessing the reveal will happen at the end of Ant Man and the Wasp, since it’s happening “before” infinity war, but they’re still unavailable during Infinity War.
posted by politikitty at 11:39 AM on April 29, 2018
Captain Marvel was never part of the Nova Corps--she got some sort of transfusion of Kree DNA that gave her superpowers.
Thanos is the Scrooge-like workaholic dad that has put his career above everything, including his own family. Now that he's finally successful, he's going to retire but he'll be bored at home and be going across universe in his RV watching sunsets on different planets. And with eternity to think things over, he'll realize he's focused so much on eliminating half of life in the universe that he's ignored the truly important things in life.
An Alexander Payne movie: About Thanos.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:43 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Thanos is the Scrooge-like workaholic dad that has put his career above everything, including his own family. Now that he's finally successful, he's going to retire but he'll be bored at home and be going across universe in his RV watching sunsets on different planets. And with eternity to think things over, he'll realize he's focused so much on eliminating half of life in the universe that he's ignored the truly important things in life.
An Alexander Payne movie: About Thanos.
posted by Halloween Jack at 11:43 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Also A/B explains pushing back New Mutants and Dark Phoenix.
posted by politikitty at 11:44 AM on April 29, 2018
posted by politikitty at 11:44 AM on April 29, 2018
Fox is supposedly removing X-Men from Dark Pheonix. I would assume this means Marvel wants to distance itself from all the current X properties and start their own once the handover is complete.
If we see any mutants I am fairly sure they won't be with any of the current actors/actresses.
posted by M Edward at 11:52 AM on April 29, 2018
If we see any mutants I am fairly sure they won't be with any of the current actors/actresses.
posted by M Edward at 11:52 AM on April 29, 2018
See, I split Carol Danvers as Ms Marvel=Earth superhero with Kree DNA splicing, Binary/Capt Marvel as cosmic superhero who’s occasionally on earth.
posted by politikitty at 11:52 AM on April 29, 2018
posted by politikitty at 11:52 AM on April 29, 2018
Also, they haven't even decided if Venom is MCU or not. Rumor is Holland was onset for couple of days of filming just in case they do want to add it in.
posted by M Edward at 11:54 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by M Edward at 11:54 AM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
What’s more, the choice to largely wipe from existence characters who are more or less vital to the future of the Marvel Cinematic Universe as a going concern (especially Star-Lord, Spider-Man, and freakin’ Black Panther) so dramatically inflates the stakes that it becomes all but certain the next movie will reverse most of these deaths.
I think this is a misunderstanding of what the movie is trying to do. (And judging from the reactions, maybe the movie failed in this intent?) I don't think the movie wants the audience to think that these characters are dead and never coming back, because obviously that's not the case. That moment at the end is supposed to be traumatic for the characters, not for the audience. The dramatic weight of it is that now the Avengers have to defeat an omnipotent Thanos with half their numbers gone in order to restore the universe and bring everyone back.
Maybe I'm just too familiar with the source material? The most succinct summary of the original Infinity Gauntlet comic is "Thanos gathers all the stones, snaps his fingers, killing half of all living things (in a vain attempt to tip his fedora and woo m'Lady Death), and the remaining Avengers have to somehow defeat him and fix the damage he's done."
posted by straight at 11:58 AM on April 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
I think this is a misunderstanding of what the movie is trying to do. (And judging from the reactions, maybe the movie failed in this intent?) I don't think the movie wants the audience to think that these characters are dead and never coming back, because obviously that's not the case. That moment at the end is supposed to be traumatic for the characters, not for the audience. The dramatic weight of it is that now the Avengers have to defeat an omnipotent Thanos with half their numbers gone in order to restore the universe and bring everyone back.
Maybe I'm just too familiar with the source material? The most succinct summary of the original Infinity Gauntlet comic is "Thanos gathers all the stones, snaps his fingers, killing half of all living things (in a vain attempt to tip his fedora and woo m'Lady Death), and the remaining Avengers have to somehow defeat him and fix the damage he's done."
posted by straight at 11:58 AM on April 29, 2018 [17 favorites]
There have been multiple Captains Marvel in the comics. We have no idea yet how much MCU Carol Danvers's story will use her own Ms. Marvel history, use history from the other Captains Marvel, or make up stuff entirely new. Personally I'm good with shunting Mar-Vell off into obscurity as long as Monica Rambeau still gets interesting things to do. The comics aren't going to help us here.
the original Infinity Gauntlet comic is "Thanos gathers all the stones, snaps his fingers, killing half of all living things (in a vain attempt to tip his fedora and woo m'Lady Death), and the remaining Avengers have to somehow defeat him and fix the damage he's done."
Honestly it's more like "The Avengers show up to be cannon fodder for Thanos, the remaining Avengers basically do nothing except gasp in shocked admiration at Adam Warlock, Thanos and boring mystical Space Buddha Warlock have a metaphysical slap fight, and Nebula yoinks the Infinity Gauntlet off Thanos while he's distracted with cosmic dick-measuring."
We're already off the path for following the comics source material, because the comics Avengers had jack shit to do with defeating Gauntleted Thanos, and the comics characters who did the heavy lifting at the end (Warlock, Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange) are either dust or haven't shown up in the MCU yet at all. Also no MCU Starfox ever please and thank you.
I think we'll see Captain Marvel slotted into Adam Warlock's role of "omnipotent space deus ex machina." If Avengers 4 retains anything directly from the Infinity Gauntlet storylines, I think it'll be Nebula grabbing the Gauntlet from Thanos; MCU Nebula has much more personal and sympathetic reasons (Gamora) to undo Thanos's genocide.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:26 PM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
the original Infinity Gauntlet comic is "Thanos gathers all the stones, snaps his fingers, killing half of all living things (in a vain attempt to tip his fedora and woo m'Lady Death), and the remaining Avengers have to somehow defeat him and fix the damage he's done."
Honestly it's more like "The Avengers show up to be cannon fodder for Thanos, the remaining Avengers basically do nothing except gasp in shocked admiration at Adam Warlock, Thanos and boring mystical Space Buddha Warlock have a metaphysical slap fight, and Nebula yoinks the Infinity Gauntlet off Thanos while he's distracted with cosmic dick-measuring."
We're already off the path for following the comics source material, because the comics Avengers had jack shit to do with defeating Gauntleted Thanos, and the comics characters who did the heavy lifting at the end (Warlock, Silver Surfer, Doctor Strange) are either dust or haven't shown up in the MCU yet at all. Also no MCU Starfox ever please and thank you.
I think we'll see Captain Marvel slotted into Adam Warlock's role of "omnipotent space deus ex machina." If Avengers 4 retains anything directly from the Infinity Gauntlet storylines, I think it'll be Nebula grabbing the Gauntlet from Thanos; MCU Nebula has much more personal and sympathetic reasons (Gamora) to undo Thanos's genocide.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:26 PM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
The best one-tweet critique I’ve seen so far:
So guys, I recently acquired a mystical artifact that gives me essentially limitless power and I’m interested in helping resolve the problem of resource-scarcity.
Any suggestions of practical ways I could help?
posted by Pater Aletheias at 1:28 PM on April 29, 2018 [27 favorites]
So guys, I recently acquired a mystical artifact that gives me essentially limitless power and I’m interested in helping resolve the problem of resource-scarcity.
Any suggestions of practical ways I could help?
posted by Pater Aletheias at 1:28 PM on April 29, 2018 [27 favorites]
Well sure, but Thanos was clearly insane/power mad and just crafted an excuse to wield that power. The movie never explicitly points that out and Brolin's performance is excellent, almost makes you forget that at times.
It'll be interesting to see if Untitled Avengers points that out. Cap probably will, he's that kinda guy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:19 PM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
It'll be interesting to see if Untitled Avengers points that out. Cap probably will, he's that kinda guy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:19 PM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Petition for Cap to call Thanos "purple Grimace space version of Paul Ryan," please.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:37 PM on April 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 3:37 PM on April 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
I saw this elsewhere and giggled...
"...But seriously though, from Bruce Banner’s perspective Age of Ultron, Thor Ragnarok, and Infinity War was just one really really bad weekend."
But anyway, put me down as someone who LOVED the movie.
posted by Windigo at 3:39 PM on April 29, 2018 [22 favorites]
"...But seriously though, from Bruce Banner’s perspective Age of Ultron, Thor Ragnarok, and Infinity War was just one really really bad weekend."
But anyway, put me down as someone who LOVED the movie.
posted by Windigo at 3:39 PM on April 29, 2018 [22 favorites]
I wonder about the in-universe selection criteria for the 50%. Since Thanos killed with a thought, the deaths ought to reflect...something? I might have started with 'everyone who knew Thanos was collecting Infinity Stones', or something similar, but he didn't.
So, were all the deaths targeted to maximize suffering, like the ones we saw? Did Thanos wish that the survivors had to 'sacrifice' the same way he did? (And, were the Guardians targeted specifically? The only one of Gamora's friends to survive is also the only sentient member of his species.)
posted by mersen at 3:44 PM on April 29, 2018
So, were all the deaths targeted to maximize suffering, like the ones we saw? Did Thanos wish that the survivors had to 'sacrifice' the same way he did? (And, were the Guardians targeted specifically? The only one of Gamora's friends to survive is also the only sentient member of his species.)
posted by mersen at 3:44 PM on April 29, 2018
Technically Peter Quill was the last (half-)Celestial, too! Mantis and Groot may also be the last of the Mantises and Groots. And Drax had already survived a mass slaughter by Thanos, so Drax should've been on the Exempt list!
posted by nicebookrack at 3:50 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 3:50 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
While not exactly a GotG, Nebula is still around. And it will be interesting to see what she and Stark have to say to one another.
posted by FJT at 3:59 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by FJT at 3:59 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
So does the New York of the MCU do "Weird Catastrophe" drills where at a set time everyone drops what they're doing and practices running down the street screaming? It seems like it comes up fairly regularly.
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 3:59 PM on April 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by Phobos the Space Potato at 3:59 PM on April 29, 2018 [14 favorites]
While not exactly a GotG, Nebula is still around. And it will be interesting to see what she and Stark have to say to one another.
I predict it won't take long before they're salvaging Titanian technology and turning each other into junktastic killdozers.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:35 PM on April 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
I predict it won't take long before they're salvaging Titanian technology and turning each other into junktastic killdozers.
posted by Halloween Jack at 4:35 PM on April 29, 2018 [6 favorites]
Well sure, but Thanos was clearly insane/power mad and just crafted an excuse to wield that power.
Yeah, he just wanted half of the universe to die and he wasn't even caring who died. I just want ultimate everything to do whatever I want like murder zillions just like that!
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:50 PM on April 29, 2018
Yeah, he just wanted half of the universe to die and he wasn't even caring who died. I just want ultimate everything to do whatever I want like murder zillions just like that!
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:50 PM on April 29, 2018
> nicebookrack:
"If Steve Rogers can easily go toe-to-toe with Thanos, why should I care when he's fighting Batroc the Leaper, y'know?"
Dude, no shade on Batroc the Leaper, he's Gwenpool's BFF.
posted by signal at 5:00 PM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
"If Steve Rogers can easily go toe-to-toe with Thanos, why should I care when he's fighting Batroc the Leaper, y'know?"
Dude, no shade on Batroc the Leaper, he's Gwenpool's BFF.
posted by signal at 5:00 PM on April 29, 2018 [4 favorites]
All these stories of weeping audiences and traumatized children makes me regret having geeked out with my 10-year-old son about Marvel stuff for months before the movie, and for watching it here in Japan, and not the U.S.
My son already knew the whole Infinity Gauntlet story before watching the movie. Before we saw it, we were talking about which characters we expected to get killed (we thought the finger-snap would be at the very start of the movie, so it couldn't take out any major characters like Iron Man, Thor, Spiderman, etc. We guessed Heimdall, Bucky, and Nebula for absolutely sure, possibly Loki, Hawkeye, and War Machine). So, paraphrasing Straight above, we didn't feel like the movie wanted us to think that these characters are dead and never coming back, but to show the trauma for the characters.
In that sense, it was like any big blockbuster (and I don't mean that in a bad way). When we went to watch Black Panther, we were never in suspense about whether or not Black Panther was going to win. We knew that outcome, even though T'challa himself didn't. But it was watching how he won that was entertaining. Same with Iron Man, same with Thor, same with Hulk, same with Spider-man. The characters are worried about losing, but the audience knows they are going to win; they enjoy seeing how it happens.
So going into this, my son and I knew that (unless they really fiddled with the source material) half of the universe was going to die, and that by the end of the next movie, it would all be back to normal. That didn't impede our enjoyment. He wasn't sad or upset or anything, he enjoyed the movie like any other Marvel movie. And nobody in the theater cried or seemed particularly upset. Possibly this is because Japan, but people like tear-jerker movies, and people weep in sad movies. Maybe it's because there were so many rapid-fire deaths? If it were a different story, and Spiderman alone died, with that "Mr. Stark, I don't want to go" line, people would themselves have been emotionally invested, and you'd have crying kids and adults, but by killing so many people before and after that scene, maybe it felt more comic-booky to the audience? I don't know.
But now, reading all this, it's making me imagine what the experience would have been if I'd taken my son, a die-hard Marvel fan, to the movie without him knowing *anything* about the Infinity Gauntlet, and what it would have been like to take him to a movie theater in the U.S., where people apparently shout at the screen.
posted by Bugbread at 5:05 PM on April 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
My son already knew the whole Infinity Gauntlet story before watching the movie. Before we saw it, we were talking about which characters we expected to get killed (we thought the finger-snap would be at the very start of the movie, so it couldn't take out any major characters like Iron Man, Thor, Spiderman, etc. We guessed Heimdall, Bucky, and Nebula for absolutely sure, possibly Loki, Hawkeye, and War Machine). So, paraphrasing Straight above, we didn't feel like the movie wanted us to think that these characters are dead and never coming back, but to show the trauma for the characters.
In that sense, it was like any big blockbuster (and I don't mean that in a bad way). When we went to watch Black Panther, we were never in suspense about whether or not Black Panther was going to win. We knew that outcome, even though T'challa himself didn't. But it was watching how he won that was entertaining. Same with Iron Man, same with Thor, same with Hulk, same with Spider-man. The characters are worried about losing, but the audience knows they are going to win; they enjoy seeing how it happens.
So going into this, my son and I knew that (unless they really fiddled with the source material) half of the universe was going to die, and that by the end of the next movie, it would all be back to normal. That didn't impede our enjoyment. He wasn't sad or upset or anything, he enjoyed the movie like any other Marvel movie. And nobody in the theater cried or seemed particularly upset. Possibly this is because Japan, but people like tear-jerker movies, and people weep in sad movies. Maybe it's because there were so many rapid-fire deaths? If it were a different story, and Spiderman alone died, with that "Mr. Stark, I don't want to go" line, people would themselves have been emotionally invested, and you'd have crying kids and adults, but by killing so many people before and after that scene, maybe it felt more comic-booky to the audience? I don't know.
But now, reading all this, it's making me imagine what the experience would have been if I'd taken my son, a die-hard Marvel fan, to the movie without him knowing *anything* about the Infinity Gauntlet, and what it would have been like to take him to a movie theater in the U.S., where people apparently shout at the screen.
posted by Bugbread at 5:05 PM on April 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
My official guess for the title of Avengers 4 is Avengers: Will It Go Round in Circles, because of the likelihood of time travel being involved and also because the title is supposed to reference this movie, and Billy Preston's song of the same name has the lyric "Let the bad guy win every once in a while."
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:15 PM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:15 PM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
This was a great movie if you love watching your favorite heroes fail over and over again. Especially when their failures are more due to their own weakness than Thanos' strength.
I like the "Half of the universe was actually sent to another reality" idea, but that's absolutely not what happened. You don't dramatically dissolve into dust if you're going to another universe. Thanos has never once indicated "relocation" has ever been an aspect of his plan. Now, with the complete set of infinity stones Thanos probably COULD HAVE split the citizens of the universe into two different universes, but as others have already pointed out Thanos isn't particularly creative and never deviates from the "Kill half of all life" plan he settled on back when Titan was still alive. It would have been nice to see more scenes showing the enormity of Thanos' act, but the movie was already long enough.
What's going to happen was already hinted at by Thanos turning the clock back on Vision: Our remaining heroes are going to go back in time and punch Thanos' mom in front of his dad at the Titan HS Prom. Or some similar timey-wimey nonsense. If you can pluck the Mind gem out of time after its destruction, anything is on the table.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:28 PM on April 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
I like the "Half of the universe was actually sent to another reality" idea, but that's absolutely not what happened. You don't dramatically dissolve into dust if you're going to another universe. Thanos has never once indicated "relocation" has ever been an aspect of his plan. Now, with the complete set of infinity stones Thanos probably COULD HAVE split the citizens of the universe into two different universes, but as others have already pointed out Thanos isn't particularly creative and never deviates from the "Kill half of all life" plan he settled on back when Titan was still alive. It would have been nice to see more scenes showing the enormity of Thanos' act, but the movie was already long enough.
What's going to happen was already hinted at by Thanos turning the clock back on Vision: Our remaining heroes are going to go back in time and punch Thanos' mom in front of his dad at the Titan HS Prom. Or some similar timey-wimey nonsense. If you can pluck the Mind gem out of time after its destruction, anything is on the table.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 5:28 PM on April 29, 2018 [10 favorites]
Yup..and maybe sacrifice their alter-ego super personas in return. No more iron man...only family man Tony Stark, etc.
posted by asra at 5:53 PM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by asra at 5:53 PM on April 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
This was a great movie if you love watching your favorite heroes fail over and over again. Especially when their failures are more due to their own weakness than Thanos' strength.
Truth. It also really hurt that everyone was being their best heroic selves and they failed anyway. Nobody* got derailed by petty grudges or interpersonal squabbles, nobody refused to give aid, everybody threw themselves on the grenade to protect the people they love, and it was all for nothing.
*I give Star-Lord a pass for punching out Thanos at a lousy time because holy shit was temporary insanity justified, and also Strange suspiciously didn't stop him
posted by nicebookrack at 6:38 PM on April 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Truth. It also really hurt that everyone was being their best heroic selves and they failed anyway. Nobody* got derailed by petty grudges or interpersonal squabbles, nobody refused to give aid, everybody threw themselves on the grenade to protect the people they love, and it was all for nothing.
*I give Star-Lord a pass for punching out Thanos at a lousy time because holy shit was temporary insanity justified, and also Strange suspiciously didn't stop him
posted by nicebookrack at 6:38 PM on April 29, 2018 [7 favorites]
Saw it today and I was hearing a lot of gasps and "oh no" during each of the character's dustings, and one person very loudly and vehemently shout "what the FUCK" when the closing credits first started.
But a couple rows in front of me, there was a group of five people who seemed strangely....jubilant. One stood up when the lights first came up and did a little butt-wiggle dance, and then sat back down. About midway through the credits he got up again, toasting the screen with a martini while one of his buddies high-fived the others. That was awfully strange, I thought....
Then I realized that they had gotten up to high-five each other during the credit sequence that paid tribute to the New York crew and figured it out. I edged my way over to them and asked "so what was your involvement with the film?" They were surprised, but then laughed and said they'd been location crew. I gave them a little round of applause and they seemed pleased.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:21 PM on April 29, 2018 [32 favorites]
But a couple rows in front of me, there was a group of five people who seemed strangely....jubilant. One stood up when the lights first came up and did a little butt-wiggle dance, and then sat back down. About midway through the credits he got up again, toasting the screen with a martini while one of his buddies high-fived the others. That was awfully strange, I thought....
Then I realized that they had gotten up to high-five each other during the credit sequence that paid tribute to the New York crew and figured it out. I edged my way over to them and asked "so what was your involvement with the film?" They were surprised, but then laughed and said they'd been location crew. I gave them a little round of applause and they seemed pleased.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:21 PM on April 29, 2018 [32 favorites]
Just came out of it and the audience was soooo quiet at the end. The Russo Brothers' credit came on and the theater was just dead silent. No one was even talking much as we walked out.
posted by octothorpe at 8:09 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 8:09 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
Went in without many expectations and I LOVED it. Anyone saying this should have been billed as a two parter is drunk, those of us who don't follow movie news spent the last hour waiting for someone to beat Thanos through the power of (mumble) and were gobsmacked by the dark ending.
Obviously a lot'll get retconned but I love that they're willing to explore the ramifications of the infinity gauntlet and let the consequences breath a bit.
posted by Emily's Fist at 8:15 PM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
Obviously a lot'll get retconned but I love that they're willing to explore the ramifications of the infinity gauntlet and let the consequences breath a bit.
posted by Emily's Fist at 8:15 PM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
This has absolutely nothing to do with the plot at all, as I'm reserving full judgment until the second part is out, but I legitimately hated the film score.
I believe that the best ones are not consciously noticeable until you hear a motif later on--or the song itself--and it hits right in that sweet spot in the chest; but there were so many times during this movie where I thought to myself, "Silence would've been better."
Someone dying? Here's the full string section with no nuance. Heroes fighting? Bring in the horns! It felt cliche, pulled me out of the story, and actively cheapened some scenes. I sat there frustrated and unhappy during the credits as I listened to a rehash of the music from the rest of the film--oh here's the Avengers theme!--and I honest to god cannot explain it. I've never had an experience where the score was both so unforgettable after the fact, and so affecting for completely the wrong reasons.
posted by lesser weasel at 8:42 PM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
I believe that the best ones are not consciously noticeable until you hear a motif later on--or the song itself--and it hits right in that sweet spot in the chest; but there were so many times during this movie where I thought to myself, "Silence would've been better."
Someone dying? Here's the full string section with no nuance. Heroes fighting? Bring in the horns! It felt cliche, pulled me out of the story, and actively cheapened some scenes. I sat there frustrated and unhappy during the credits as I listened to a rehash of the music from the rest of the film--oh here's the Avengers theme!--and I honest to god cannot explain it. I've never had an experience where the score was both so unforgettable after the fact, and so affecting for completely the wrong reasons.
posted by lesser weasel at 8:42 PM on April 29, 2018 [3 favorites]
tag yourself I'm Wakanda Occasionally
posted by nicebookrack at 9:11 PM on April 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 9:11 PM on April 29, 2018 [18 favorites]
I honest to god cannot explain it. I've never had an experience where the score was both so unforgettable after the fact, and so affecting for completely the wrong reasons.
There's a great film essay about this; Marvel apparently uses temp music for editing, and then composers get told to imitate the temp music, so there's no scope for their composers to create anything memorable.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:26 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
There's a great film essay about this; Marvel apparently uses temp music for editing, and then composers get told to imitate the temp music, so there's no scope for their composers to create anything memorable.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 9:26 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
The Black Panther score was so great though! And Captain America: Winter Soldier had a decent enough score too. So Marvel can do well at this. It's obnoxious that they don't bother with most of their movies.
posted by yasaman at 10:21 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 10:21 PM on April 29, 2018 [2 favorites]
tag yourself I'm Wakanda Occasionally
I'm don't lay eggs in my chest. God she was so good in this for what little screen time she had. I loved the sight gag where she's bouncing in the low gravity behind Stark.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:42 PM on April 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm don't lay eggs in my chest. God she was so good in this for what little screen time she had. I loved the sight gag where she's bouncing in the low gravity behind Stark.
posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 10:42 PM on April 29, 2018 [8 favorites]
Also her mean face!
posted by flaterik at 10:46 PM on April 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by flaterik at 10:46 PM on April 29, 2018 [9 favorites]
my take on the consequence of the snap is that this is how Marvel begins Phase 4 which begins with "Avengers 4: Secret Invasion". Realising that their empire has been weakened by the snap all of the hidden skrulls begin a mass earth exodus to go back and strengthen the skrull empire against opportunistic attack. This makes everyone step back and realise that A LOT of people have been replaced over the years by skrull counterparts - including the superheroes (super skrulls - they're a thing, look them up). So, those that have "disappeared" can be hand-waved away by actually having been their skrull counterpart, and the "real" heroes are still out there having been kidnapped by the skrulls years, if not decades, ago.
also, at some point, "Adam" (which I belive to be adam warlock) steps up and does cosmic-level type stuff. if he actually survived the snap, of course. we don't know this, just like we don't know if Captain Marvel survived. We saw the page go out, but I didn't see any reply or "message read" or anything....
posted by alchemist at 12:51 AM on April 30, 2018
also, at some point, "Adam" (which I belive to be adam warlock) steps up and does cosmic-level type stuff. if he actually survived the snap, of course. we don't know this, just like we don't know if Captain Marvel survived. We saw the page go out, but I didn't see any reply or "message read" or anything....
posted by alchemist at 12:51 AM on April 30, 2018
I'm also kind of impressed that they managed to turn his motivation and origin in a way where he's still the villain specifically because he doesn't like or respect or listen to the women in his life, and even though he loves them deeply in his childish way that only a poorly thought out machine could read as true love he just doesn't give a fuck about what they want or care about. He can't even hang up some curtains or get a nicer chair for fuck's sake.
Everything OK at home, fomhar?
posted by Paul Slade at 1:22 AM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Everything OK at home, fomhar?
posted by Paul Slade at 1:22 AM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
So instead we get an ending that (A) makes all the heroes' efforts during the movie pointless, (B) takes all of the humor and fun and then stomps on it and sets it on fire, and (C) we know will be reversed somehow anyhow. It feels like a massive "fuck you" to the audience.
This _could_ be the next movie, undoing all these unsatisfying parts of this movie.
That said, when the great ashening was happening and the whole theater was kind of freaking out, the woman next to me was crying, I didn't really feel any of that because - I dunno, because though I enjoyed the movie (bang! pow!) and the kids I was with (12 to 14 year olds) all agreed it was hilarious, no one really bought that the 'deaths' were 'real.' "Black Panther" made a billion dollars (one of us argued) there's no way they're killing that off.
As mentioned upthread, focusing on Thanos and the characters' interactions with him was a brilliant move, giving the movie focus in a clear and simple way.
We all spent a good while discussing the various ways Thanos should have and yet wasn't dis-armed. Literally, and the consensus view was that he's too damn tough. Maybe. At least we took it as the reason, that you literally could not just cut off his arm. We all wanted Dr. Strange to be more strange, though, to really mess with Thanos.
And Loki was up to something. He's Loki. Seriously, Loki would never just lay down and 'die.' Loki pulled a fast one, we just don't know what it was yet.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:26 AM on April 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
This _could_ be the next movie, undoing all these unsatisfying parts of this movie.
That said, when the great ashening was happening and the whole theater was kind of freaking out, the woman next to me was crying, I didn't really feel any of that because - I dunno, because though I enjoyed the movie (bang! pow!) and the kids I was with (12 to 14 year olds) all agreed it was hilarious, no one really bought that the 'deaths' were 'real.' "Black Panther" made a billion dollars (one of us argued) there's no way they're killing that off.
As mentioned upthread, focusing on Thanos and the characters' interactions with him was a brilliant move, giving the movie focus in a clear and simple way.
We all spent a good while discussing the various ways Thanos should have and yet wasn't dis-armed. Literally, and the consensus view was that he's too damn tough. Maybe. At least we took it as the reason, that you literally could not just cut off his arm. We all wanted Dr. Strange to be more strange, though, to really mess with Thanos.
And Loki was up to something. He's Loki. Seriously, Loki would never just lay down and 'die.' Loki pulled a fast one, we just don't know what it was yet.
posted by From Bklyn at 1:26 AM on April 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
> From Bklyn:
"the kids I was with (12 to 14 year olds) all agreed it was hilarious, no one really bought that the 'deaths' were 'real.'"
This.
It was a great movie.
posted by chavenet at 1:38 AM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
"the kids I was with (12 to 14 year olds) all agreed it was hilarious, no one really bought that the 'deaths' were 'real.'"
This.
It was a great movie.
posted by chavenet at 1:38 AM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
> zarq:
"Thanos: The Hand of Fate?"
Or
Thanos: The Fate of the Hand
posted by chavenet at 1:39 AM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
"Thanos: The Hand of Fate?"
Or
Thanos: The Fate of the Hand
posted by chavenet at 1:39 AM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Thanos: Pull my finger. No, really, come on, pull my finger. It'll be funny.
posted by From Bklyn at 2:30 AM on April 30, 2018 [16 favorites]
posted by From Bklyn at 2:30 AM on April 30, 2018 [16 favorites]
Possibilities for the 2019 film title...
Avengers Relicensed
Avengers Finite Peace
Avengers Reborn
Avengers Reset
Avengers Recast
Avengers Fork of the Worlds
Avengers Bifurcate!
Avenger Potter and the Resurrection Stone
Avenger Who
Avengers Life Model Decoys Save the Day
Avengers Replicons from Beyond the Moon
Avenger Jones and the Tentpole of Money
The Avengers Strike Back
The Avengers Go Bananas
For the Love of Avenger
Avenger: The Hunted
Avenger Goes to Camp
Back to the Avenger, Part 4
posted by Construction Concern at 3:11 AM on April 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
Avengers Relicensed
Avengers Finite Peace
Avengers Reborn
Avengers Reset
Avengers Recast
Avengers Fork of the Worlds
Avengers Bifurcate!
Avenger Potter and the Resurrection Stone
Avenger Who
Avengers Life Model Decoys Save the Day
Avengers Replicons from Beyond the Moon
Avenger Jones and the Tentpole of Money
The Avengers Strike Back
The Avengers Go Bananas
For the Love of Avenger
Avenger: The Hunted
Avenger Goes to Camp
Back to the Avenger, Part 4
posted by Construction Concern at 3:11 AM on April 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm pretty blown away by the audacity of the ending. I'm not often surprised by big budget films and this one totally caught me unguarded. I kept thinking, "ok, that's bad but they'll get out of it somehow" and then the end credits came up.
posted by octothorpe at 3:25 AM on April 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 3:25 AM on April 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
I really liked that they got rid of the Lady Death motivation. Darth Vader was cool when until they showed his backstory as a whiny teen. Thanos would have been unwatchably uncool if they kept his motivation as "I'll kill half the universe so goth sempai will finally notice me!" Sure, his new motive has lots of holes in it (the amount of time it takes populations to double, the potential to use the gauntlet to just make more resources, etc., etc., etc.), but at least when you hear it you don't immediately think "I wonder what his reddit account name is."
posted by Bugbread at 3:37 AM on April 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 3:37 AM on April 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
No more iron man...only family man Tony Stark, etc
Only genius, billionaire, family man, philanthropist Tony stark, etc.
posted by biffa at 3:57 AM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Only genius, billionaire, family man, philanthropist Tony stark, etc.
posted by biffa at 3:57 AM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
Avenger Who
I think this is why the UK cinema audience at the showing I saw last night took the ending with equanimity; after several years of Steven Moffat Timey-Wimey-Reset-Buttons, we all assume that it will get fixed in Part 2.
As for children being upset by the ending, some of us were kids when the final episode of Blake's 7 aired. Now there's trauma for you.
posted by Major Clanger at 4:24 AM on April 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
I think this is why the UK cinema audience at the showing I saw last night took the ending with equanimity; after several years of Steven Moffat Timey-Wimey-Reset-Buttons, we all assume that it will get fixed in Part 2.
As for children being upset by the ending, some of us were kids when the final episode of Blake's 7 aired. Now there's trauma for you.
posted by Major Clanger at 4:24 AM on April 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Saw it with the 15-year-old and the 12-year-old.
“So, what’d you think?”
“Well, they’re definitely gonna do another one.”
posted by Etrigan at 4:30 AM on April 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
“So, what’d you think?”
“Well, they’re definitely gonna do another one.”
posted by Etrigan at 4:30 AM on April 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
"For all we know, Avengers 3 & 4 might take place entirely within the space of a day or two and be entirely resolved between 2 episodes of Agents of SHIELD. "
I would hate that. I want Avengers: Retcon to begin after the amount of time between the release date of IW and the release date of A:R. Like they did with Civil War and Infinity War. There is a lot that can happen.
What happens to babies when their parents disappear?
What happens to parents when their children disappear?
Will the remaining 50% of the population be able to keep the electrical grid/water/internet working?
What happens to pets when their owners disappear?
AND it could take that long for the remaining heroes to get things to a semblance of normal before Tony can starting thinking about fixing the universe.
posted by Billiken at 6:19 AM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I would hate that. I want Avengers: Retcon to begin after the amount of time between the release date of IW and the release date of A:R. Like they did with Civil War and Infinity War. There is a lot that can happen.
What happens to babies when their parents disappear?
What happens to parents when their children disappear?
Will the remaining 50% of the population be able to keep the electrical grid/water/internet working?
What happens to pets when their owners disappear?
AND it could take that long for the remaining heroes to get things to a semblance of normal before Tony can starting thinking about fixing the universe.
posted by Billiken at 6:19 AM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I'm in the camp that understands comic book theory well enough to know that not _everybody_ is dead-dead (although that doesn't mean everybody lives, rose, just this once, everybody lives!), but I still appreciate that a major motion picture just went there just the same. I honestly expected/figured any of the battles would finally deal with Thanos and that'd be it, nothing left but cleanup and samosas and yet time and time again, nope!
So _so_ refreshing.
posted by Kyol at 6:23 AM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
So _so_ refreshing.
posted by Kyol at 6:23 AM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
What happens to pets when their owners disappear?
The Secret Life of Pets 2: MCU
posted by TwoStride at 6:27 AM on April 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
The Secret Life of Pets 2: MCU
posted by TwoStride at 6:27 AM on April 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
We saw it on Saturday, and the theater was more packed than I have ever, ever seen it at 11 am. When Tony got stabbed in the stomach, the entire theater gasped, and when Peter turns into ash in Tony's arms, though, you coulda dropped a pin. The whole theater was dead-freaking-silent.
(If you heard somebody hissing yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssss when Bucky turned into ash, though, and disappeared along with his prosthesis, sorry, not sorry that we were in the same showing, but that was my utter fucking pleasure at the at the Movie Going There and Doing That and GIVE IT TO ME.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:31 AM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
(If you heard somebody hissing yesssssssssssssssssssssssssssss when Bucky turned into ash, though, and disappeared along with his prosthesis, sorry, not sorry that we were in the same showing, but that was my utter fucking pleasure at the at the Movie Going There and Doing That and GIVE IT TO ME.)
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:31 AM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
you kids would have lost your goddamned mind if you were alive to see esb in the theater.
I did see it in the theater. That was a big moment but Vader didn't kill half the damn universe.
Also David Prowse apparently spoiled it in a newspaper interview and "no one" noticed because the internet wasn't a thing.
(I saw Episode IV in the theater too, but I was 5 years old and when my parents were talking about it on the way home, didn't know who this "Luke" person they were talking about was, just that I liked space and robots.)
I also wonder if the ticket sales are going to tank in the coming weeks, moreso than is usual for a blockbuster superhero movie.... I'm not intending to see this one again.
I had the same thought. I want to watch it again, but only after another movie resolves the mess.
posted by Foosnark at 6:33 AM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I did see it in the theater. That was a big moment but Vader didn't kill half the damn universe.
Also David Prowse apparently spoiled it in a newspaper interview and "no one" noticed because the internet wasn't a thing.
(I saw Episode IV in the theater too, but I was 5 years old and when my parents were talking about it on the way home, didn't know who this "Luke" person they were talking about was, just that I liked space and robots.)
I also wonder if the ticket sales are going to tank in the coming weeks, moreso than is usual for a blockbuster superhero movie.... I'm not intending to see this one again.
I had the same thought. I want to watch it again, but only after another movie resolves the mess.
posted by Foosnark at 6:33 AM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also David Prowse apparently spoiled it in a newspaper interview and "no one" noticed because the internet wasn't a thing.
Prowse was probably talking out of his ass.
posted by Etrigan at 6:43 AM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Prowse was probably talking out of his ass.
posted by Etrigan at 6:43 AM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Other things I loved:
The through-line about how Pepper and Tony aren't having kids because of his super-hero-ing, but hey, look at Tony's face when Peter dissolves in his arms. Kids don't have to be biologically related for you to be responsible for them, and for them to matter to you very, very, very deeply.
When Bucky goes, "God, I love this place," when the alien stuff runs into the Wakanda force shields. Wakanda forever, everyone.
Okoye's EXPRESSION when Hulk in the Hulkbuster trips and falls on his face. Like, that little exasperated eye roll!
WHERE IS W'KABI. THE BORDER TRIBE WAS PRESENT DURING THAT MASSIVE FIGHT, BUT WHERE WAS W'KABI. IS HE IN PRISON.
WHERE IS VALKYRIE. IF SHE IS AMONG THE 75% OF THE ASGARDIANS WHO ARE NOW DEAD, I AM GOING TO BE VERY UPSET.
The technobabble about doing Vision's neurons was very, very, very handwave-y, but you could not find my fucks with an electron microscope, because I was so delighted to see Shuri again. I was delighted, too, to see all those white dudes in awe of a young black girl genius.
Even though I saw it beforehand in the trailers/gif'd, Okoye's line about the Olympics and Starbucks really cracked me up in the movie theater. I now want a lot of meta about whether Wakandans even compete in the Olympics, given that vibranium apparently changes their bodies off standard human????
The movie arranges a really fascinating range of adoptive/associative families, because you have not one, not two, not three, but arguably four to five non-bio families, and they actually fall into a pretty tidy spectrum:
Thanos - Gamora - Nebula (100% abusive and horrible and awful from inception to conclusion, and I hope Nebula is the one who kills Thanos, preferably by stabbing him in the EYE/LIFE)posted by joyceanmachine at 6:56 AM on April 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
Odin/Freya - Hel - Thor- Loki (rooted in multiple acts of genocide and sustained deception, but maybe not the worst at the end because Freya appears to have genuinely cared about both Thor and Loki, and after her death, Thor and Loki were able to salvage something when faced with Hel)
Tony - Peter (the relationship is not inherently abusive and not terrible in formation, and bad things happen not because of anything Tony intended, but really, Tony? Really? Is that what you want to be enabling this teenage kid to do?)
Steve - Sam - Natasha, as well as Wanda - Vision (everybody is a consenting adult and/or omniscient cyborg powered by a mystical gem and knows the stakes of what they're getting into)
No one ever asks about Sif.
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:14 AM on April 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 7:14 AM on April 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
So I've been following this thread ever since I saw the movie Friday morning, and I do agree that the emotional pull of the end deaths are (mostly) from the reactions of the people that see them go.
Poor Steve Rogers, after all his efforts to save Bucky, sees him fade away and there's not a damn thing he can do about it.
Rocket's reaction was such a timid, heartbroken, "Not again, Goddamit" to Groot's fading away.
Okoye's reaction was just pure bafflement at seeing the King she has sworn to protect just dissolve in her arms.
And then there's Sam, which in retrospect touches me even more than Peter Parker's pleas to Tony Stark, because unlike the above people and everyone on Titan, he dies all alone. No one sees him fade. He's struggling in the tall grass, wings clipped, utterly helpless and then... he's gone.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 7:22 AM on April 30, 2018 [21 favorites]
Poor Steve Rogers, after all his efforts to save Bucky, sees him fade away and there's not a damn thing he can do about it.
Rocket's reaction was such a timid, heartbroken, "Not again, Goddamit" to Groot's fading away.
Okoye's reaction was just pure bafflement at seeing the King she has sworn to protect just dissolve in her arms.
And then there's Sam, which in retrospect touches me even more than Peter Parker's pleas to Tony Stark, because unlike the above people and everyone on Titan, he dies all alone. No one sees him fade. He's struggling in the tall grass, wings clipped, utterly helpless and then... he's gone.
posted by AlonzoMosleyFBI at 7:22 AM on April 30, 2018 [21 favorites]
This /r/marvelstudios Reddit thread is fun: What scene/scenes got the biggest reactions from the audience when you saw Infinity War? Stuff like this is why I like to see movies like this either opening week in a packed theater or late in the run at a cheap matinee, if not on home code. If I'm paying $10+ for a ticket, I want the full theater experience of everyone in the audience with me feeling the movie like we're one collective organism. If I have to see spider baby Peter Parker dying in Tony's arms, everybody has to suffer with me!
posted by nicebookrack at 7:28 AM on April 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 7:28 AM on April 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
Just in case anyone was wondering how the Great Unwashed reacted to the ending being such a bummer, there's a new Wikipedia article: List of box office records set by Avengers: Infinity War
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:37 AM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Halloween Jack at 7:37 AM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
really, Tony? Really? Is that what you want to be enabling this teenage kid to do?
Cut poor Tony some slack. While it's still ethically dubious that Tony didn't tell Peter's legal guardian immediately that her minor charge was secretly beating up muggers, a major plot thread through Civil War, Homecoming, and Infinity War was that Peter was already putting himself in danger with this Spider-Man hero crap before Tony showed up, and he'll keep doing it if Tony leaves until someone physically stops or kills him. When Tony takes back his suit and support in Homecoming, Peter immediately almost gets himself killed saving the day from Vulture. When Shit Gets Real in Infinity War with the circle spaceship headed to Titan, Tony immediately kicks Peter off to go home. "If you die, I feel like that's on me," Tony tells Peter in Homecoming, and exactly what Tony feared happens in the most painful possible way that Tony could do nothing to prevent.
I loved that when Peter snuck aboard the spaceship, his argument went from "Actually, it's your fault I'm here" to OH CRAP LET ME UNSAY THAT in two seconds at the sight of Tony's Ultimate Dad-Face of What The Fuck Did You Just Say To Me? A conversation that is now going to give Tony more nightmares for the rest of eternity.
Peter's awestruck face when Tony knighted him into the Avengers made me tear up.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:53 AM on April 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
Cut poor Tony some slack. While it's still ethically dubious that Tony didn't tell Peter's legal guardian immediately that her minor charge was secretly beating up muggers, a major plot thread through Civil War, Homecoming, and Infinity War was that Peter was already putting himself in danger with this Spider-Man hero crap before Tony showed up, and he'll keep doing it if Tony leaves until someone physically stops or kills him. When Tony takes back his suit and support in Homecoming, Peter immediately almost gets himself killed saving the day from Vulture. When Shit Gets Real in Infinity War with the circle spaceship headed to Titan, Tony immediately kicks Peter off to go home. "If you die, I feel like that's on me," Tony tells Peter in Homecoming, and exactly what Tony feared happens in the most painful possible way that Tony could do nothing to prevent.
I loved that when Peter snuck aboard the spaceship, his argument went from "Actually, it's your fault I'm here" to OH CRAP LET ME UNSAY THAT in two seconds at the sight of Tony's Ultimate Dad-Face of What The Fuck Did You Just Say To Me? A conversation that is now going to give Tony more nightmares for the rest of eternity.
Peter's awestruck face when Tony knighted him into the Avengers made me tear up.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:53 AM on April 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
What scene/scenes got the biggest reactions from the audience when you saw Infinity War?
I hope my roar when Thor showed up at the Wakanda battlefield and called the thunderbolt didn't deafen the folks sitting in front of me.
posted by dnash at 7:56 AM on April 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
I hope my roar when Thor showed up at the Wakanda battlefield and called the thunderbolt didn't deafen the folks sitting in front of me.
posted by dnash at 7:56 AM on April 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
Yeah, I was pretty surprised by that. She even says "that isn't real love" and then ...apparently uh, the universe thinks it is? Thumbs down on that.
I know it's just a comic book movie, but I really would like for them to address the idea that abusive monsters can really love you. They are broken on the inside, and the love they feel is destructive and hurtful love, but love nonetheless. So many people talk about love like it is something that fixes everything and makes everything okay, and so many abusive people use their love as an excuse for how the abuse isn't actually abuse. I say, make it clear that bad and evil people can love someone or something and still hurt and destroy it. Kindness, fairness, empathy, and real respect for other people are sometimes more important than love and love that doesn't understand how destructive it is will still kill you.
That's one reason I've always adored Rocket so much, he acknowledges that life hurts everyone and it's okay to be fucked up by it. But it's not okay to actively work to fuck up others just because you hurt. His moment with Thor showed that again, he really does connect with broken people like himself and make an effort to not make them more broken.
Regardless, this movie broke me for a few hours and I'm just now reaching the point where I can rationalize some sort of acceptable ending out of it. I'm an adult and I understand the makers of movies won't kill off the characters that make gazillions of dollars, but for a brief moment during the credits, waiting to see some sort of hint that everything might be okay, it felt like midnight on 11/8/2016. My heart knew the bad guy had won, but everything else was trying to find a way for it to be okay.
posted by teleri025 at 8:16 AM on April 30, 2018 [28 favorites]
I know it's just a comic book movie, but I really would like for them to address the idea that abusive monsters can really love you. They are broken on the inside, and the love they feel is destructive and hurtful love, but love nonetheless. So many people talk about love like it is something that fixes everything and makes everything okay, and so many abusive people use their love as an excuse for how the abuse isn't actually abuse. I say, make it clear that bad and evil people can love someone or something and still hurt and destroy it. Kindness, fairness, empathy, and real respect for other people are sometimes more important than love and love that doesn't understand how destructive it is will still kill you.
That's one reason I've always adored Rocket so much, he acknowledges that life hurts everyone and it's okay to be fucked up by it. But it's not okay to actively work to fuck up others just because you hurt. His moment with Thor showed that again, he really does connect with broken people like himself and make an effort to not make them more broken.
Regardless, this movie broke me for a few hours and I'm just now reaching the point where I can rationalize some sort of acceptable ending out of it. I'm an adult and I understand the makers of movies won't kill off the characters that make gazillions of dollars, but for a brief moment during the credits, waiting to see some sort of hint that everything might be okay, it felt like midnight on 11/8/2016. My heart knew the bad guy had won, but everything else was trying to find a way for it to be okay.
posted by teleri025 at 8:16 AM on April 30, 2018 [28 favorites]
Avengers 4: The Leftovers
The fact that Carrie Coons voiced Proxima Midnight is just so perfect.
Here's hoping that Avengers 4 opens with Proxima sitting in a hotel room, water from the sprinkler slowly dripping from her horns.....................
posted by Frayed Knot at 8:22 AM on April 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
The fact that Carrie Coons voiced Proxima Midnight is just so perfect.
Here's hoping that Avengers 4 opens with Proxima sitting in a hotel room, water from the sprinkler slowly dripping from her horns.....................
posted by Frayed Knot at 8:22 AM on April 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
What happens to babies when their parents disappear?
What happens to parents when their children disappear?
This is why I'm grateful for spoilers and also why I probably won't see the film (and why we, for sure, won't take our 11 year old to see it). I'm completely incapable of NOT thinking about the worldwide repercussions of this. I was honestly looking forward to this, but in the current world the emotional weight of this kind of thing is just too much for me.
Mayybe when the next one comes out I'll go back and see the first one. I guess that makes me an old mom lady, IDK, but I prefer some uplift at the end of my popcorn superhero entertainment. I get enough of the other from the news.
posted by anastasiav at 9:00 AM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
What happens to parents when their children disappear?
This is why I'm grateful for spoilers and also why I probably won't see the film (and why we, for sure, won't take our 11 year old to see it). I'm completely incapable of NOT thinking about the worldwide repercussions of this. I was honestly looking forward to this, but in the current world the emotional weight of this kind of thing is just too much for me.
Mayybe when the next one comes out I'll go back and see the first one. I guess that makes me an old mom lady, IDK, but I prefer some uplift at the end of my popcorn superhero entertainment. I get enough of the other from the news.
posted by anastasiav at 9:00 AM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
RE: Avengers 4: etc...
I suspect it might be Avengers 4: Heroes Reborn.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:16 AM on April 30, 2018
I suspect it might be Avengers 4: Heroes Reborn.
posted by Ashwagandha at 9:16 AM on April 30, 2018
My 10 yo was really pissed and in disbelief as the credits rolled. We, along with everybody else, sat in (mostly) silence waiting for… something.
Except for a group of beta-nerds in the back who were shouting out explanations to each other, you could practically cut the 'well actually'-s with a knife.
Finally, the credit roll ends, the Fury + Hill set place plays out, and the camera rests on the beeper.
It took me a few tenths of a second to recognize the logo.
I yelled "Yes! It's Captain Marvel!" (one of the nerds in the back row said 'see, somebody else gets it too!'), I stand up, take my 10 yo's hand and say 'Do not worry, my son, it's OK, all is good with the world' (I actually declaimed the words) and walk out, with a spring to my step and a heart full of hope.
posted by signal at 9:25 AM on April 30, 2018 [12 favorites]
Except for a group of beta-nerds in the back who were shouting out explanations to each other, you could practically cut the 'well actually'-s with a knife.
Finally, the credit roll ends, the Fury + Hill set place plays out, and the camera rests on the beeper.
It took me a few tenths of a second to recognize the logo.
I yelled "Yes! It's Captain Marvel!" (one of the nerds in the back row said 'see, somebody else gets it too!'), I stand up, take my 10 yo's hand and say 'Do not worry, my son, it's OK, all is good with the world' (I actually declaimed the words) and walk out, with a spring to my step and a heart full of hope.
posted by signal at 9:25 AM on April 30, 2018 [12 favorites]
I really enjoyed it. I think they did a great job making it feel like it matters even though, God, even my six year old knows Spider Man isn't dead for long.
I think there's a compelling point to be made that everyone left over is "actually" dead. As in, the future of Marvel Movies certainly is more closely aligned with Peter Parker/T'Challa/Bucky/Guardians (minus Rocket (and what about Gamora - does dying before the big cull count? What about Loki?)) than it is with Iron Man/Cap'n Steve/Hulk/Thor. But yeah, even still, whatever happens will clearly involve rolling this all back. I'm OK with this as long as it is done well.
Thor coming to Wakanda drew the second biggest reaction in my theater. The biggest reaction was the absolute stunned and perfect silence following The Snap. As filmmakers that has to be an amazing feeling just NAILING that.
Other thoughts:
posted by dirtdirt at 10:36 AM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I think there's a compelling point to be made that everyone left over is "actually" dead. As in, the future of Marvel Movies certainly is more closely aligned with Peter Parker/T'Challa/Bucky/Guardians (minus Rocket (and what about Gamora - does dying before the big cull count? What about Loki?)) than it is with Iron Man/Cap'n Steve/Hulk/Thor. But yeah, even still, whatever happens will clearly involve rolling this all back. I'm OK with this as long as it is done well.
Thor coming to Wakanda drew the second biggest reaction in my theater. The biggest reaction was the absolute stunned and perfect silence following The Snap. As filmmakers that has to be an amazing feeling just NAILING that.
Other thoughts:
- SPACE title card with Rubberband Man playing was such a Guardians-y intro to the Guardians.
- Having Dr. Strange in Ragnarok was a smart move from a Marvel Universe perspective - give everyone some more exposure to him and his powers and what he is up to. I feel like Dr. Strange (the movie) didn't get quite the number of eyeballs as the rest of these, and he is/was a very, very important part. The whole 1/16 million possibilities, "this is the only way" thing is huge.
- Hulk. I was disappointed to not have Hulk busting out of the Hulkbuster armor, because I could see that being GREAT cinema. That said, I think a fully realized, full-power, full-anger Banner/Hulkwill be something to see, and in my personal horse race of powers, should be the most powerful single character. So I look forward to that being deployed next film.
- Upcoming movies: Ant Man and the Wasp HAS to address this all, somehow, doesn't it? Or will they do the whole, "oh, this happened earlier" thing?Then next year we get Captain Marvel, which will at least retroactively set up the stinger from Infinity Wars. And then Infinitier Wars. And then Spider Man. Wow. Exciting!
posted by dirtdirt at 10:36 AM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm betting that Ant-Man and Wasp will be slightly earlier or about the same time as A:IW, with maybe a stinger that catches us up a little.
The stinger at the end of Captain Marvel should be the interesting.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:41 AM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
The stinger at the end of Captain Marvel should be the interesting.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:41 AM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
The root of all of our heroes' failure is the fact that they are separated from each other. Not in just space, but that they are not working together as a team.
Tony has a brief moment to call Steve before the Order shows up in New York, but he's afraid. And once the bad guys do show up, he instantly throws himself directly at the superhero problem as a way to get out dealing with the interpersonal problem. As a result, he's pulled off planet and loses his only chance at calling Steve to coordinate a response.
This is a pattern with Stark: only minutes earlier he ran off from a difficult personal conversation with Pepper as soon as Strange (who he doesn't even know) showed up with a superhero problem.
Both of the first two Avengers films were about the group facing world-threatening problems and overcoming them as a team. This time, the problem they were faced with was "Thanos is trying to gather the six Infinity Stones", and they didn't work as a team. They failed.
In the aftermath of that failure, there's a new problem: "half of the sentient life in the universe has died an early and unnatural death." And I think that's what the next film will be about. The remaining team (which not coincidentally includes all of the original lineup from the first film) are going to have to reconcile with each other. Because there's only one way that they will be able to overcome this new problem.
Like the old man said: together.
posted by Uncle Ira at 10:46 AM on April 30, 2018 [19 favorites]
Tony has a brief moment to call Steve before the Order shows up in New York, but he's afraid. And once the bad guys do show up, he instantly throws himself directly at the superhero problem as a way to get out dealing with the interpersonal problem. As a result, he's pulled off planet and loses his only chance at calling Steve to coordinate a response.
This is a pattern with Stark: only minutes earlier he ran off from a difficult personal conversation with Pepper as soon as Strange (who he doesn't even know) showed up with a superhero problem.
Both of the first two Avengers films were about the group facing world-threatening problems and overcoming them as a team. This time, the problem they were faced with was "Thanos is trying to gather the six Infinity Stones", and they didn't work as a team. They failed.
In the aftermath of that failure, there's a new problem: "half of the sentient life in the universe has died an early and unnatural death." And I think that's what the next film will be about. The remaining team (which not coincidentally includes all of the original lineup from the first film) are going to have to reconcile with each other. Because there's only one way that they will be able to overcome this new problem.
Like the old man said: together.
posted by Uncle Ira at 10:46 AM on April 30, 2018 [19 favorites]
The ending: more like Avengers Disassemble.
You are a bad person and should feel bad.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:47 AM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
You are a bad person and should feel bad.
posted by Jacqueline at 10:47 AM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Somewhat surprisingly to me, the biggest reaction in my theater was to Cap showing up. I am an unabashed MCU Steve Rogers fan, but I didn't think the whole theater would be!
Though it might have been tied by "well, okay now he will have fought him twice" Thor reappearance.
posted by flaterik at 11:37 AM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Though it might have been tied by "well, okay now he will have fought him twice" Thor reappearance.
posted by flaterik at 11:37 AM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
ran off from a difficult personal conversation with Pepper as soon as Strange (who he doesn't even know) showed up with a superhero problem.
Banner was there, too, and that's why Tony left. He trusts Banner even if he doesn't know Strange.
posted by cooker girl at 12:06 PM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Banner was there, too, and that's why Tony left. He trusts Banner even if he doesn't know Strange.
posted by cooker girl at 12:06 PM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
The ending: more like Avengers Disassemble.
You are a bad person and should feel bad.
Make sure you don't read Glen Weldon's column.
posted by Etrigan at 12:18 PM on April 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
You are a bad person and should feel bad.
Make sure you don't read Glen Weldon's column.
posted by Etrigan at 12:18 PM on April 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
Ahaha, I was just reading his column and had to come over here to see if it was already linked. That is some beautiful punning.
posted by rewil at 12:24 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by rewil at 12:24 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh, and one more reaction from Earth-people to the disappearances...
What if the survivors all think it's the Rapture, and they missed it?
posted by Billiken at 12:29 PM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
What if the survivors all think it's the Rapture, and they missed it?
posted by Billiken at 12:29 PM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
I hope my roar when Thor showed up at the Wakanda battlefield and called the thunderbolt didn't deafen the folks sitting in front of me.
I still feel guilty about "HOLY SHIT! IT'S A FUCKING HELI-CARRIER!" during The Avengers.
posted by mikelieman at 12:35 PM on April 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
I still feel guilty about "HOLY SHIT! IT'S A FUCKING HELI-CARRIER!" during The Avengers.
posted by mikelieman at 12:35 PM on April 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'd be willing to bet that the post-credits sequence of Ant-Man and the Wasp will involve either Scott or Hope turning to ash, possibly in the middle of a kiss, or something equally heartbreaking.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:36 PM on April 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 12:36 PM on April 30, 2018 [15 favorites]
I hope my roar when Thor showed up at the Wakanda battlefield and called the thunderbolt didn't deafen the folks sitting in front of me.
I was secretly hoping they'd bring back Led Zep's Immigrant Song for those scenes the way they did in Ragnarok.
posted by zarq at 12:42 PM on April 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
I was secretly hoping they'd bring back Led Zep's Immigrant Song for those scenes the way they did in Ragnarok.
posted by zarq at 12:42 PM on April 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
Echoing some of the comments above, I was really disappointed by the incompleteness of it. For all 18(?) of the previous MCU entries, Marvel has succeeded in telling an encapsulated, satisfying story while still moving the overall arc along. Infinity War doesn't live up to that standard, and is a lesser movie for it.
Also, stakes ...
posted by DrAstroZoom at 12:42 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, stakes ...
posted by DrAstroZoom at 12:42 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Having Dr. Strange in Ragnarok was a smart move from a Marvel Universe perspective
Worth it just for this.
posted by zarq at 12:44 PM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
Worth it just for this.
posted by zarq at 12:44 PM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
I feel personally attacked by this movie. How dare Marvel make me cry?!?
I know some of these deaths will be reversed, but I am guessing the ones unrelated to the gauntlet are permanent?
posted by Julnyes at 12:47 PM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
I know some of these deaths will be reversed, but I am guessing the ones unrelated to the gauntlet are permanent?
posted by Julnyes at 12:47 PM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
While "Immigrant Song was a rich and verdant seed to Plant in Thor: Ragnarok, it's likely that when the makers of Infinity War were Jonesing for it, they found that Led Zeppelin's management wasn't on the same Page.
posted by wabbittwax at 12:49 PM on April 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
posted by wabbittwax at 12:49 PM on April 30, 2018 [11 favorites]
Make sure you don't read Glen Weldon's column.
THE SNAPTURE
posted by zarq at 12:50 PM on April 30, 2018 [19 favorites]
THE SNAPTURE
posted by zarq at 12:50 PM on April 30, 2018 [19 favorites]
Echoing some of the comments above, I was really disappointed by the incompleteness of it. For all 18(?) of the previous MCU entries, Marvel has succeeded in telling an encapsulated, satisfying story while still moving the overall arc along. Infinity War doesn't live up to that standard, and is a lesser movie for it.
Huh, I don't get this complaint at all. Thanos, the star of the film, set out to do X. The movie was about his attempts to do X and why. The movie ended with him completing what he said he was gonna do.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:52 PM on April 30, 2018 [26 favorites]
Huh, I don't get this complaint at all. Thanos, the star of the film, set out to do X. The movie was about his attempts to do X and why. The movie ended with him completing what he said he was gonna do.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:52 PM on April 30, 2018 [26 favorites]
THE SNAPTURE
We should just make this term mandatory right now under MetaFilter Law. They didn't dissolve, they were snaptured.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:54 PM on April 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
We should just make this term mandatory right now under MetaFilter Law. They didn't dissolve, they were snaptured.
posted by Jacqueline at 12:54 PM on April 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
I had been using the phrase Infinity Snap, but yeah Glen's got this one.
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:57 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Strange Interlude at 12:57 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thanos, the star of the film, set out to do X. The movie was about his attempts to do X and why. The movie ended with him completing what he said he was gonna do.
"Mission Accomplished."
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:58 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
"Mission Accomplished."
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:58 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Hell, it's mandatory all over the world as of two minutes ago.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:58 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:58 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I was fortunate enough to see this with my sixteen year-old kid, since none of their friends are into superhero movies so much (but a big group of them went to see Black Panther because apparently that was a big deal to them that transcended it being a superhero movie somehow, so good work there Marvel).
The emotional impact left them "shook" as they say, but soon enough we were talking about the obvious in-movie setups for the next part, mostly revolving around Doctor Strange. He says he will let anyone die rather than parting with the stone, uses the stone to find the one good outcome, and then hands over the stone. Plus he says "We are in the end game now" and "there was no other way" just before dissolving. You're going to have to be pretty confident in a plan that involves you disintegrating in the middle of it.
The only part that felt off to me was the Hulk refusing to Hulkify, which leads me to believe that through time-travel or other shenanigans that will be revealed next movie that Hulk was somehow informed that appearing too early would break the needed path of events.
The next movie is going to do so much re-winding they may as well call it Avengers: raW ytinifnI
posted by mikepop at 12:58 PM on April 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
The emotional impact left them "shook" as they say, but soon enough we were talking about the obvious in-movie setups for the next part, mostly revolving around Doctor Strange. He says he will let anyone die rather than parting with the stone, uses the stone to find the one good outcome, and then hands over the stone. Plus he says "We are in the end game now" and "there was no other way" just before dissolving. You're going to have to be pretty confident in a plan that involves you disintegrating in the middle of it.
The only part that felt off to me was the Hulk refusing to Hulkify, which leads me to believe that through time-travel or other shenanigans that will be revealed next movie that Hulk was somehow informed that appearing too early would break the needed path of events.
The next movie is going to do so much re-winding they may as well call it Avengers: raW ytinifnI
posted by mikepop at 12:58 PM on April 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
It was The Snappening (thanks, SA Forum) and I will not accept any substitutes.
I am going to pretend that Korg, Valkyrie, Sif, and anybody else that I didn't see are off doing something important and will be back later. Ice cream is probably involved.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:59 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
I am going to pretend that Korg, Valkyrie, Sif, and anybody else that I didn't see are off doing something important and will be back later. Ice cream is probably involved.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 12:59 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
We could speculate that, like the real Rapture, the Snapture took only the best and purest half of the universe away into ashy heaven-oblivion. But proving the lie, there stands untouched Steve Rogers, who has never done anything wrong in his life, ever.
posted by nicebookrack at 1:01 PM on April 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 1:01 PM on April 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
waiting to see some sort of hint that everything might be okay, it felt like midnight on 11/8/2016. My heart knew the bad guy had won, but everything else was trying to find a way for it to be okay.
I think it’s interesting to think about how this is something the majority of folks in the US experienced - like yeah, this happened, we really lost, the bad guy really won, now what? And two years later we produce a huge complicated piece of art that expresses that feeling. It’s kind of like how all the big feelings about WW2 that the world had kept pouring out in movies for decades
posted by bleep at 1:01 PM on April 30, 2018 [25 favorites]
I think it’s interesting to think about how this is something the majority of folks in the US experienced - like yeah, this happened, we really lost, the bad guy really won, now what? And two years later we produce a huge complicated piece of art that expresses that feeling. It’s kind of like how all the big feelings about WW2 that the world had kept pouring out in movies for decades
posted by bleep at 1:01 PM on April 30, 2018 [25 favorites]
Ryan Reynolds tweeted a 2012 rejection letter sent to Deadpool this weekend.
posted by zarq at 1:23 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by zarq at 1:23 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I am going to pretend that Korg, Valkyrie, Sif, and anybody else that I didn't see are off doing something important and will be back later. Ice cream is probably involved.
They were all on the ship leaving Asgard, right? The one that Thanos intercepted at the end of Ragnarok/Beginning of Infinity War? My assumption is they were all killed repelling Thanos.
posted by mikelieman at 1:58 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
They were all on the ship leaving Asgard, right? The one that Thanos intercepted at the end of Ragnarok/Beginning of Infinity War? My assumption is they were all killed repelling Thanos.
posted by mikelieman at 1:58 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Sif wasn’t on Asgard for Ragnarok, so she’s available. Also, since Heimdahl wasn’t dead yet, it seems Thanos didn’t feel the need to kill everyone. While most of them would fight to the death, it’s possible they’d get knocked out and just left for dead.
posted by politikitty at 2:15 PM on April 30, 2018
posted by politikitty at 2:15 PM on April 30, 2018
Valkyrie's location during Infinity War is revealed!
(Context: Tessa Thompson loves goats)
But no seriously, if Thor could splat against the Milano windshield in space and walk it off, Valkyrie is fine.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:20 PM on April 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
(Context: Tessa Thompson loves goats)
But no seriously, if Thor could splat against the Milano windshield in space and walk it off, Valkyrie is fine.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:20 PM on April 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
Huh, I don't get this complaint at all. Thanos, the star of the film, set out to do X. The movie was about his attempts to do X and why. The movie ended with him completing what he said he was gonna do.
This is where I would normally place the GIF of Mal Reynolds opening his mouth, then swallowing his words, dispirited that his argument had been rendered irrelevant.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 2:22 PM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
This is where I would normally place the GIF of Mal Reynolds opening his mouth, then swallowing his words, dispirited that his argument had been rendered irrelevant.
posted by DrAstroZoom at 2:22 PM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
It's a good question as to how many Asgardians are left. It's clear from the outset that there's not very many Asgardians to begin with, they seem like an incredibly long-lived species with a very low birth rate. It's not really clear how much stronger Thor is than the typical Asgardian, or if other Asgardians can shrug off floating though space the way Thor did. Technically every Asgardian is a god of some kind, and gods generally die from getting murdered by other gods, not mundane shit like no air.
Thanos sticks to his "Kill half, spare the rest" plan pretty closely, but I don't think he minds killing everyone who resists. He killed everyone that got in his way getting to Thor, Loki and the Tesseract, and he blew up the ship on his way out. That may count as getting murdered by another god, it might not. In any case, the future is not looking great for Asgardians (which, considering this is right after Ragnarok, makes a lot of sense).
Thanos was obviously waiting for the right time to claim the Tesseract from Loki. It's too bad he didn't decide show up an hour sooner, something tells me Thanos might have hit it off with the closest MCU equivalent to his comic book love interest, the Asgardian Goddess of Death, Hel.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 2:44 PM on April 30, 2018
Thanos sticks to his "Kill half, spare the rest" plan pretty closely, but I don't think he minds killing everyone who resists. He killed everyone that got in his way getting to Thor, Loki and the Tesseract, and he blew up the ship on his way out. That may count as getting murdered by another god, it might not. In any case, the future is not looking great for Asgardians (which, considering this is right after Ragnarok, makes a lot of sense).
Thanos was obviously waiting for the right time to claim the Tesseract from Loki. It's too bad he didn't decide show up an hour sooner, something tells me Thanos might have hit it off with the closest MCU equivalent to his comic book love interest, the Asgardian Goddess of Death, Hel.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 2:44 PM on April 30, 2018
Maybe the next film is just going to be two hours of showing different planets and how they have become paradises due to their sudden surpluses of resources.
(Yes, I realize that that's not what would happen in the real world, but within the movie context, apparently Gamora's planet has become a paradise because Thanos killed half the population, so I'm enjoying the mental imagery of a movie consisting of two hours of paradise footage, and then "Avengers - The End" appears on screen and credits roll.)
posted by Bugbread at 2:44 PM on April 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
(Yes, I realize that that's not what would happen in the real world, but within the movie context, apparently Gamora's planet has become a paradise because Thanos killed half the population, so I'm enjoying the mental imagery of a movie consisting of two hours of paradise footage, and then "Avengers - The End" appears on screen and credits roll.)
posted by Bugbread at 2:44 PM on April 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
Steve Rogers gazed up at the enormous memorial statue. Forty years it had taken him to learn what kind of smile was hidden above that testicular chin. O cruel, needless misunderstanding! O stubborn, self-willed exile from the loving breast! Two tears trickled down the sides of his nose. But it was all right, everything was all right, the struggle was finished. He had won the victory over himself. He loved Thanos.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 3:02 PM on April 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 3:02 PM on April 30, 2018 [13 favorites]
I'm enjoying the mental imagery of a movie consisting of two hours of paradise footage, Paul Ryan 2020 ads, and then "Avengers - The End" appears on screen and credits roll.
posted by eustatic at 3:04 PM on April 30, 2018
posted by eustatic at 3:04 PM on April 30, 2018
Maybe the next film is just going to be two hours of showing different planets and how they have become paradises due to their sudden surpluses of resources.
Didn't things get a lot easier for the survivors after the European Plague?
posted by bleep at 3:22 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
Didn't things get a lot easier for the survivors after the European Plague?
posted by bleep at 3:22 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I just got out of my viewing, and I stupidly spoiled myself last night for all of the deaths. I wish I could have held out, but I was 1000% convinced they were going to kill off Steve Rogers and I didn't know if I could handle it going in cold. Damn it, I wish I'd stayed strong.
It turns out that no, the worst is actually Tony watching his spider-son baby hero Peter die in his arms as Peter begs not to go. And Steve running his fingers through Bucky's ashes.
Chris Evans and RDJ haven't signed longer contracts after this movie, so I'm going to have to steel myself up for their deaths AGAIN. I'm a goddamn wreck.
YES THANK YOU. My biggest feeling right now is the sinking pit in my stomach that the next movie is when they'll probably off Steve Rogers for good and my heart will be broken. If they do it when he's on a different plane/reality/timestream from Bucky, I will burn down everything.
(And then go write/read tons of fix-it fic. I'll probably do that anyway, though.)
I'm still trying to process this one. A few random thoughts, some of which have been discussed above:
It turns out that no, the worst is actually Tony watching his spider-son baby hero Peter die in his arms as Peter begs not to go. And Steve running his fingers through Bucky's ashes.
Chris Evans and RDJ haven't signed longer contracts after this movie, so I'm going to have to steel myself up for their deaths AGAIN. I'm a goddamn wreck.
YES THANK YOU. My biggest feeling right now is the sinking pit in my stomach that the next movie is when they'll probably off Steve Rogers for good and my heart will be broken. If they do it when he's on a different plane/reality/timestream from Bucky, I will burn down everything.
(And then go write/read tons of fix-it fic. I'll probably do that anyway, though.)
I'm still trying to process this one. A few random thoughts, some of which have been discussed above:
* Tom Holland is a treasure. His death scene was the one that brought tears to my eyes (along with Groot's, damn it), and I adored his pop-culture battle with Star Lord.posted by Salieri at 3:28 PM on April 30, 2018 [5 favorites]
* Thor and the Guardians worked surprisingly well together. I loved the "noble rabbit" and "angel pirate" stuff.
* Thor appearing in full-out God of Thunder mode with his brand new Axe of Whatever? Awwwww, yes!
* I was unspoiled for Red Skull! That was a nice little bit of business.
* I agree with those who say that Thanos did have love for Gamora, and that's what made it so awful and tragic. The idea that monsters have enough capacity for love that they can alter reality...it's chilling.
* Thor made a mention of Thanos killing half the Asgardians. What happened to the rest of them? Are they still floating out in space somewhere? I genuinely love how un-killable Thor is, floating around in space likehe's Carrie Fisherit aint' no thing, but I don't know how sturdy the rest of his people are.
* I can't remember his exact words, but when T'Challa and company were going to see Bucky and bring him his new arm, T'Challa's words about how the White Wolf was tired of war but he needed to stop resting just killed me. Poor Bucky, finally getting a tiny slice of long-denied peace. He's been fighting since WWII. Can he just live happy in Wakanda in his little hut (with frequent conjugal visits with Steve)?
* Near the end of the film, I was mostly just getting impatient (probably because I had to pee and didn't want to leave and miss something). Theoretically I was fully on Steve's "we don't sacrifice one person" line, but when so many people were getting slaughtered I wanted to kill Vision myself. Come on, dude! Half the universe is at stake! I'm hoping that the choices made in this movie are revisited in the themes of the next one. There was a theme of noble characters making "stupid" choices to save a single person (Gamora and Nebula, Strange and Stark, Wanda and Vision), and that contrasted with Thanos's ability to make the "hard" choice every time, no matter what the cost. I think that's why I'm feeling sort of numb right now. Usually that heroic trait of "I will put my lover/sister/team-mate above the fate of the world" is rewarded with everything sort of working out all right in the end. This time, it...didn't. I can't wait to see how it ultimately ends, because I hope those themes carry forward.
* Vision's death scene was surprisingly creepy, with pulling the stone right out of his head (and leaving a hole behind) and the way his body went all colorless and white-eyed. That was well done.
* On the one hand, Thanos was surprisingly effective as a bad guy, and they clearly went for the layers with him, which is much appreciated. On the other hand...his plan made no sense and just made him seem like a random lunatic. I don't know, maybe it would have been more effective if there was something more to his madness - like, a Ragnarok-style vision which has convinced him that the entire universe is going to destroy itself and this is literally the only way to save it. Because hearing his plan just made me think, "Dude, as soon as that half of the remaining population starts reproducing, you're right back where you started." Or maybe some kind of sense that he was being strategic in culling the herd? I don't know, but it wasn't quite there for me.
* As awesome as this spectacle was, I think I prefer the smaller scale of the non-Avengers movies. I like getting to see the character development that this movie couldn't really explore. There's a reason that Captain America: Winter Soldier is still my top fave in the MCU.
* Seriously, if they kill off Steve Rogers next time I'm going to Have Words with the universe.
Thor's side trip to make an axe was completely unnecessary, should have been cut.
That would completely ruin the big entrance that gets the biggest, most exuberant cheer from the theater audience.
Also, it is a good demonstration of how much more powerful Thor has become now that he knows post-Ragnarok that the lightning is within him, and the weapon is but a focus for that power. And you would miss all the interaction between him and the noble rabbit, as well as Dinklage's cameo.
So in a deeper voice that is totally my voice, I must strongly, most emphatically, disagree, sir!
posted by linux at 3:43 PM on April 30, 2018 [27 favorites]
That would completely ruin the big entrance that gets the biggest, most exuberant cheer from the theater audience.
Also, it is a good demonstration of how much more powerful Thor has become now that he knows post-Ragnarok that the lightning is within him, and the weapon is but a focus for that power. And you would miss all the interaction between him and the noble rabbit, as well as Dinklage's cameo.
So in a deeper voice that is totally my voice, I must strongly, most emphatically, disagree, sir!
posted by linux at 3:43 PM on April 30, 2018 [27 favorites]
I'm starting to get a little worn out on the MCU house style of everyone being a comedian. I like the levity, I'm not in favor of grimdark. And if presented with any individual example, I usually like it. Wisecracking Iron Man? Good. Goofy Spider Man? Good. Comedy-by-straight-man Thor? Good. Troupe of comedians GoG? Good. Snarky Doctor Strange? Good. But put everyone in the same movie, and everyone is constantly cracking jokes, and that's starting to wear down on me.
The most egregious one was when Captain America and Thor, I think, stop fighting for a while in Wakanda so they can make a joke about their beards. After a pitched battle, or a lull in the battle, sure, but the way it was filmed you just know there's some Wakandan getting killed off-camera somewhere because instead of Thor or Steve killing a Thanos beast they let it run past so they can make jokes.
Don't get me wrong, I like the lightness of the MCU, but it feels like they should reign it in a bit before it becomes overbearing, while making sure not to go overboard and turn into DCU.
posted by Bugbread at 4:10 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
The most egregious one was when Captain America and Thor, I think, stop fighting for a while in Wakanda so they can make a joke about their beards. After a pitched battle, or a lull in the battle, sure, but the way it was filmed you just know there's some Wakandan getting killed off-camera somewhere because instead of Thor or Steve killing a Thanos beast they let it run past so they can make jokes.
Don't get me wrong, I like the lightness of the MCU, but it feels like they should reign it in a bit before it becomes overbearing, while making sure not to go overboard and turn into DCU.
posted by Bugbread at 4:10 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
My thought after seeing it last night:
Good movie. Not the best, but it certainly had its moments. That they managed to pull off this many characters is impressive in and of itself.
Thor is always best when he is not on Earth, even in the comics. That Marvel can now get away with the crazy insane power levels some of its heroes have and the audience just go with it is impressive. He jump-started a mechanism as large as a planet!
I really liked the psychological hangup of a Hulk afraid to come out after getting beaten by Thanos. The Hulk is a big kid, a big bully who spent three years being champion of the ring in Saakar, and he just got his ass handed to him by Thanos, who didn't even bat an eye, so now he's sulking in a corner of Banner's mind. How Banner gets him back out may be as easy as shooting himself in the head (again), but it would be better storywise for Banner and the Hulk to maybe come to terms with each other and becoming intelligent Hulk.
Now I knew this was a two-parter so I was ready for the dark turn at the ending, and I also know the comic book series this is based on, but also know that given the MCU trajectory you can't take for granted that the plot will be the same (no Silver Surfer, no Adam Warlock, no Mephisto). I was fairly sure Thanos would get all the stones and kill half the universe's population, but was surprised with who got dusted and who survived, until they got to the end and I realized the survivors include folks they plan on retiring. Also, Nebula didn't dust, so a plot in the comics may come to the screen in a big way with her and, instead of Adam Warlock, Captain Marvel.
So about those "deaths"... the emotion of Spider-man's death was amazing, not so much when the others went (and Fury's was amusing because of he gets cut off mid-word). However, this is a comic book movie, arguably the biggest ever made, and no one dies in comic books; not forever. Spider-man and Black Panther will certainly return -- those franchises just got started. The love story developed between Vision and Wanda implies they won't leave it with him deactivated and she dusted. I am betting Thanos' visions of Gamora will be the trigger for something, and it is quite possible that Thanos will give his own life to restore hers so she can be part of GotG Vol. 3.
As for Loki... well... if there is another Thor movie (because Ragnarok revitalized the franchise) then Loki will be back.
I realize I have just brought back to life the three major pre-gauntlet deaths (sorry, but Heimdall is dead and Bifrost can be summoned by Thor now), but two of those may have valid impact with the story and the third is because Thor and Loki in space doing crazy shit is now really popular. But that's my bet.
Now as to the second part? My single sentence plot: Steve and Tony die distracting Thanos while Nebula and Marvel take the gauntlet and restore the universe.
posted by linux at 4:14 PM on April 30, 2018
Good movie. Not the best, but it certainly had its moments. That they managed to pull off this many characters is impressive in and of itself.
Thor is always best when he is not on Earth, even in the comics. That Marvel can now get away with the crazy insane power levels some of its heroes have and the audience just go with it is impressive. He jump-started a mechanism as large as a planet!
I really liked the psychological hangup of a Hulk afraid to come out after getting beaten by Thanos. The Hulk is a big kid, a big bully who spent three years being champion of the ring in Saakar, and he just got his ass handed to him by Thanos, who didn't even bat an eye, so now he's sulking in a corner of Banner's mind. How Banner gets him back out may be as easy as shooting himself in the head (again), but it would be better storywise for Banner and the Hulk to maybe come to terms with each other and becoming intelligent Hulk.
Now I knew this was a two-parter so I was ready for the dark turn at the ending, and I also know the comic book series this is based on, but also know that given the MCU trajectory you can't take for granted that the plot will be the same (no Silver Surfer, no Adam Warlock, no Mephisto). I was fairly sure Thanos would get all the stones and kill half the universe's population, but was surprised with who got dusted and who survived, until they got to the end and I realized the survivors include folks they plan on retiring. Also, Nebula didn't dust, so a plot in the comics may come to the screen in a big way with her and, instead of Adam Warlock, Captain Marvel.
So about those "deaths"... the emotion of Spider-man's death was amazing, not so much when the others went (and Fury's was amusing because of he gets cut off mid-word). However, this is a comic book movie, arguably the biggest ever made, and no one dies in comic books; not forever. Spider-man and Black Panther will certainly return -- those franchises just got started. The love story developed between Vision and Wanda implies they won't leave it with him deactivated and she dusted. I am betting Thanos' visions of Gamora will be the trigger for something, and it is quite possible that Thanos will give his own life to restore hers so she can be part of GotG Vol. 3.
As for Loki... well... if there is another Thor movie (because Ragnarok revitalized the franchise) then Loki will be back.
I realize I have just brought back to life the three major pre-gauntlet deaths (sorry, but Heimdall is dead and Bifrost can be summoned by Thor now), but two of those may have valid impact with the story and the third is because Thor and Loki in space doing crazy shit is now really popular. But that's my bet.
Now as to the second part? My single sentence plot: Steve and Tony die distracting Thanos while Nebula and Marvel take the gauntlet and restore the universe.
posted by linux at 4:14 PM on April 30, 2018
While "Immigrant Song was a rich and verdant seed to Plant in Thor: Ragnarok, it's likely that when the makers of Infinity War were Jonesing for it, they found that Led Zeppelin's management wasn't on the same Page.
Bonham tish!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:04 PM on April 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
Bonham tish!
posted by ricochet biscuit at 5:04 PM on April 30, 2018 [10 favorites]
I was secretly hoping they'd bring back Led Zep's Immigrant Song for those scenes the way they did in Ragnarok.
It totally started going through my head as my own personal sound track to the scene
posted by flaterik at 5:25 PM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
It totally started going through my head as my own personal sound track to the scene
posted by flaterik at 5:25 PM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
My single sentence plot: Steve and Tony die distracting Thanos while Nebula and Marvel take the gauntlet and restore the universe.
I'm guessing Thor is involved in wielding the Gauntlet and/or distracting Thanos. A:IW went through a lot of trouble of showing us that Thor can handle the energy from a star and channel it with his weapons, so that's gotta facture in later.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:35 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm guessing Thor is involved in wielding the Gauntlet and/or distracting Thanos. A:IW went through a lot of trouble of showing us that Thor can handle the energy from a star and channel it with his weapons, so that's gotta facture in later.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:35 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm meh on having Thor wield the Infinity Gauntlet for the same reasons that comics Adam Warlock wielding it was (IMO) meh: it's not a reversal of fortune or a victory, it's just transferring that power to a nice omnipotent god-warrior from a mean omnipotent god-warrior. To be emotionally satisfying against Thanos, the wielder ought to be a worthy puny human (Captain Marvel, Steve Rogers, Black Panther, Tony Stark though he'll get incinerated immediately), someone ludicrously underpowered (Rocket, Groot, Spider-Man at his purest spiderbaby kid), some kind of group Care Bear stare, or someone with a personal connection to Thanos (Nebula, Gamora). My money's still on Nebula.
By the way, NOOO, I forgot that when Thanos took out Xandar, he took out John C. Reilly's family! Maybe the assault on Xandar will be an opening scene in a future Nova movie.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:30 PM on April 30, 2018
By the way, NOOO, I forgot that when Thanos took out Xandar, he took out John C. Reilly's family! Maybe the assault on Xandar will be an opening scene in a future Nova movie.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:30 PM on April 30, 2018
The end of this movie is dealing with the same problem you have in most movies of this genre. You've got a villain with an evil plan, and of course she's not going to succeed in the end, but you want her to get really close. You want her to capture the last piece of the Doomsday Machine and at least turn it on and get it rumbling, not just for dramatic tension, but because it's more cinematic to see what's going to happen if the heroes don't win rather than to just be told about it.
Maybe the Empire can blow up one planet before the heroes stop them from blowing up a bunch more and taking over the galaxy. But if they go too far and blow up too many planets, it starts to feel like the heroes kinda lost even if they stop the Empire in the end.
In this case, the movie could just tell us Thanos is going to kill half of everybody if he gathers all the gems, or maybe someone could have a vision or use time travel to look at the future so we could see what it might be like if the heroes fail to stop him. But given the time and reality warping nature of this story's MacGuffin, it seems much more effective to just let him actually do it with the implication that this horrible state of affairs will be real and permanent unless the heroes can somehow defeat the now-omnipotent Thanos.
I don't think that understanding of the plot and the stakes relies at all on any meta-knowledge we might have about which characters are going to survive to make more movies. Even if this was the cliffhanger of a completely stand-alone two-part movie, I would assume that a story of this genre is not going to end with villain having successfully committed this kind of omni-genocide and that all the deaths we see at the end of Part One are essentially the rumbling of the Doomsday Machine.
posted by straight at 6:56 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
Maybe the Empire can blow up one planet before the heroes stop them from blowing up a bunch more and taking over the galaxy. But if they go too far and blow up too many planets, it starts to feel like the heroes kinda lost even if they stop the Empire in the end.
In this case, the movie could just tell us Thanos is going to kill half of everybody if he gathers all the gems, or maybe someone could have a vision or use time travel to look at the future so we could see what it might be like if the heroes fail to stop him. But given the time and reality warping nature of this story's MacGuffin, it seems much more effective to just let him actually do it with the implication that this horrible state of affairs will be real and permanent unless the heroes can somehow defeat the now-omnipotent Thanos.
I don't think that understanding of the plot and the stakes relies at all on any meta-knowledge we might have about which characters are going to survive to make more movies. Even if this was the cliffhanger of a completely stand-alone two-part movie, I would assume that a story of this genre is not going to end with villain having successfully committed this kind of omni-genocide and that all the deaths we see at the end of Part One are essentially the rumbling of the Doomsday Machine.
posted by straight at 6:56 PM on April 30, 2018 [4 favorites]
According to a Q&A with Joe Russo: among other things, Valkyrie lived, Asgardians survivors escaped on pods, and Tom Holland improvised his death scene. Fucking hell, give the spider-baby a Best Supporting Actor Golden Globe already.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:56 PM on April 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 6:56 PM on April 30, 2018 [18 favorites]
What scene/scenes got the biggest reactions from the audience when you saw Infinity War?
My theater made some sort of OH YEAH THIS IS AWESOME rumble at the sight of Steve Rodgers and T'Challa sprinting neck-and-neck out ahead of the pack to meet the alien army pouring in through the shield gap.
posted by straight at 7:06 PM on April 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
My theater made some sort of OH YEAH THIS IS AWESOME rumble at the sight of Steve Rodgers and T'Challa sprinting neck-and-neck out ahead of the pack to meet the alien army pouring in through the shield gap.
posted by straight at 7:06 PM on April 30, 2018 [8 favorites]
Steve and Tony jointly wielding the gauntlet while Carol Danvers and Thor keep Thanos busy would be a good end to their characters. They undo the destruction Thanos has wrought as the Infinity Gauntlet undoes them.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:49 PM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:49 PM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
My theater made some sort of OH YEAH THIS IS AWESOME rumble at the sight of Steve Rodgers and T'Challa sprinting neck-and-neck out ahead of the pack to meet the alien army pouring in through the shield gap.
I was just coming back to comment on that, because I forgot to include it with my favorite moments. That was such an awesome scene - the entire Wakandan army running toward the alien invaders, and then the enhanced T'Challa and Steve pulling out ahead, clearly moving faster than regular humans can run.
It reminded me of the scene from the first Captain America movie when Steve first gets the serum and immediately takes off running after the Hydra goon who killed Erskine. He's tearing through New York, outrunning cars and crashing into things because he can't control his brand new body. How far he's come.
posted by Salieri at 8:10 PM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
I was just coming back to comment on that, because I forgot to include it with my favorite moments. That was such an awesome scene - the entire Wakandan army running toward the alien invaders, and then the enhanced T'Challa and Steve pulling out ahead, clearly moving faster than regular humans can run.
It reminded me of the scene from the first Captain America movie when Steve first gets the serum and immediately takes off running after the Hydra goon who killed Erskine. He's tearing through New York, outrunning cars and crashing into things because he can't control his brand new body. How far he's come.
posted by Salieri at 8:10 PM on April 30, 2018 [6 favorites]
I keep going back and forth - Tony dies in the next movie to pull the whole self-sacrifice arc full circle. Steve retires out of the world. Steve sacrifices himself, because he's Steve Rogers, avatar of everything noble and good, damnit. Tony retires to have Pepper babies.
I'm right there with everyone saying that Peter's death - that was the ice cold knife through the dead heart. I've only ever seen this Spidey in Civil War and it still wrecked me like Mellish's death in Saving Private Ryan. (still can't watch that scene - nope, not doing it!)
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:42 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm right there with everyone saying that Peter's death - that was the ice cold knife through the dead heart. I've only ever seen this Spidey in Civil War and it still wrecked me like Mellish's death in Saving Private Ryan. (still can't watch that scene - nope, not doing it!)
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:42 PM on April 30, 2018 [1 favorite]
James Gunn: "The name of the Guardians’ ship in #InfinityWar is The Benatar."
Hit them with your best shot!
posted by nicebookrack at 9:46 PM on April 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
Hit them with your best shot!
posted by nicebookrack at 9:46 PM on April 30, 2018 [7 favorites]
Also, I'm really, really not ready for the end of Captain America. Even during the Obama administration when things didn't feel really strange about being a proud American, Cap stood for every silly hopeful positive good thought about what America means. And Chris Evans has done such an amazing job breathing live into a character that could be an insufferable boy scout (ala the USO/warbonds tour scenes in Captain America: First Avenger [which is near and dear to me])
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:47 PM on April 30, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:47 PM on April 30, 2018 [12 favorites]
hat was such an awesome scene - the entire Wakandan army running toward the alien invaders, and then the enhanced T'Challa and Steve pulling out ahead, clearly moving faster than regular humans can run.
I'm pretty sure there was a bit of a "who can run faster" going on there, too - IIRC, Steve got overtaken and then had to speed up to match T'Challa.
posted by coriolisdave at 10:32 PM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm pretty sure there was a bit of a "who can run faster" going on there, too - IIRC, Steve got overtaken and then had to speed up to match T'Challa.
posted by coriolisdave at 10:32 PM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
My husband and I were trying to work out this morning how they could have made the ending more traumatising, and we settled on:
I made a Leftovers joke upthread, but the opening scene in that show's pilot really was devastating.
posted by zarq at 11:14 PM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I made a Leftovers joke upthread, but the opening scene in that show's pilot really was devastating.
posted by zarq at 11:14 PM on April 30, 2018 [2 favorites]
I noped right the hell out of the leftovers after the whole "They're not our dogs anymore".
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:22 PM on April 30, 2018
posted by drewbage1847 at 11:22 PM on April 30, 2018
"Also, I'm really, really not ready for the end of Captain America."
Captain America is probably my favorite MCU character, and I'm going to say the unpopular thing:
I'm ready for him to make his permanent exit.
Not because I think he's overstayed his welcome, but because he's a great character and the longer he's around the more likely they are to do something to screw him up. I want him to leave on a high note, not have the movie explore some dark past or hidden dark side or the like.
If he exits soon, he'll be remembered as a great character for years and years. If they keep him around forever he's going to be like one of those bands that constantly produces mediocre stuff and you always have to qualify liking by saying "Oh, I really like the early Captain America."
posted by Bugbread at 11:28 PM on April 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
Captain America is probably my favorite MCU character, and I'm going to say the unpopular thing:
I'm ready for him to make his permanent exit.
Not because I think he's overstayed his welcome, but because he's a great character and the longer he's around the more likely they are to do something to screw him up. I want him to leave on a high note, not have the movie explore some dark past or hidden dark side or the like.
If he exits soon, he'll be remembered as a great character for years and years. If they keep him around forever he's going to be like one of those bands that constantly produces mediocre stuff and you always have to qualify liking by saying "Oh, I really like the early Captain America."
posted by Bugbread at 11:28 PM on April 30, 2018 [14 favorites]
>Cap's a great character and the longer he's around the more likely they are to do something to screw him up
Some day they're going to adapt that recent story where someone gets a time mcguffin and cap was a nazi the whole time, and it'll be bad, and I hope cap dies before they try to do it so it only happens in the reboot universe in twenty years and not the universe I like in three years.
>Everything OK at home, fomhar?
Yeah actually I just got some nice curtains not too long ago.
Predictions for Avengers: 2 Infinity 2 War-
Ant Man goes back in time through the quantum realm with a shopping list written by Tony Stark. He makes himself a founding Avenger by redoing part of the battle of New York, moves the space stone so Loki doesn't get it at the end of Ragnarok, moves the other stones so they're better hidden from Thanos, some other stuff happens, and at the end when Captain Marvel snatches the guantlet off of Thanos' hand (or Nebula's hand?) and all of the heroes are looking at it terrified because it'll kill them and or make them crazy, Steve Rogers is the one who steps forwards and puts it on. The stress of a human using it vaporizes him but he still undoes everything after the snap, though people remember being dead. Vision is rebuilt but he's played by a younger actor now, Loki is reincarnated in a later movie but it's really convoluted and he might also be a younger actor. Heimdall stays dead. Gamora is alive, but they have to spend a whole movie getting her out of the soul stone but they're too busy to do it now. Iron Man retires and in a credit scene decides to form a different kind of supergroup with a makeup that depends on who marvel has the rights to and how fast that deal is moving, but I'm going to guess the Illuminati is going to be Tony, Bruce, Hank Pym, Shuri, Doctor Strange, Helen Cho, Fitz/Simmons (lol I wish), and depending on the rights situation, Xavier and Richards. Spider-man interns for them but isn't a member.
posted by fomhar at 11:52 PM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
Some day they're going to adapt that recent story where someone gets a time mcguffin and cap was a nazi the whole time, and it'll be bad, and I hope cap dies before they try to do it so it only happens in the reboot universe in twenty years and not the universe I like in three years.
>Everything OK at home, fomhar?
Yeah actually I just got some nice curtains not too long ago.
Predictions for Avengers: 2 Infinity 2 War-
Ant Man goes back in time through the quantum realm with a shopping list written by Tony Stark. He makes himself a founding Avenger by redoing part of the battle of New York, moves the space stone so Loki doesn't get it at the end of Ragnarok, moves the other stones so they're better hidden from Thanos, some other stuff happens, and at the end when Captain Marvel snatches the guantlet off of Thanos' hand (or Nebula's hand?) and all of the heroes are looking at it terrified because it'll kill them and or make them crazy, Steve Rogers is the one who steps forwards and puts it on. The stress of a human using it vaporizes him but he still undoes everything after the snap, though people remember being dead. Vision is rebuilt but he's played by a younger actor now, Loki is reincarnated in a later movie but it's really convoluted and he might also be a younger actor. Heimdall stays dead. Gamora is alive, but they have to spend a whole movie getting her out of the soul stone but they're too busy to do it now. Iron Man retires and in a credit scene decides to form a different kind of supergroup with a makeup that depends on who marvel has the rights to and how fast that deal is moving, but I'm going to guess the Illuminati is going to be Tony, Bruce, Hank Pym, Shuri, Doctor Strange, Helen Cho, Fitz/Simmons (lol I wish), and depending on the rights situation, Xavier and Richards. Spider-man interns for them but isn't a member.
posted by fomhar at 11:52 PM on April 30, 2018 [3 favorites]
My prediction for the next movie:
The movie starts years after the Snap. The survivors have spent the intervening time dealing with the aftermath on their respective planets, but someone has finally discovered the location of Thanos's farm. Then when Thanos is out tilling his field, Doctor Strange opens a portal into his farmhouse, grabs the glove, opens a portal to the Star Forge, and melts it. Movie running time: 10 minutes. Credit scroll time: 1 hour and 53 minutes.
The after-movie scene introduces Squirrel Girl and, in a surprising DC cross-over, Arm-Fall-Off-Boy.
posted by Bugbread at 12:09 AM on May 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
The movie starts years after the Snap. The survivors have spent the intervening time dealing with the aftermath on their respective planets, but someone has finally discovered the location of Thanos's farm. Then when Thanos is out tilling his field, Doctor Strange opens a portal into his farmhouse, grabs the glove, opens a portal to the Star Forge, and melts it. Movie running time: 10 minutes. Credit scroll time: 1 hour and 53 minutes.
The after-movie scene introduces Squirrel Girl and, in a surprising DC cross-over, Arm-Fall-Off-Boy.
posted by Bugbread at 12:09 AM on May 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
One hope I have is that if the MCU can get the Fantastic Four, they also get Namor. Then we can have the real Defenders group, which I am still 40% convinced was built on a dare.
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:59 AM on May 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 1:59 AM on May 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I really wanted Stark to actually die when he got stabbed on Titan. RDJ Stark needs to retire because the franchise needs to move on and it can't whilst they can still rely on RDJ Iron man. Also I want a Riri Williams Ironheart.
Same in fact for Steve Rogers.
His contract is up but he's agreed to do a 7th movie because "It makes sense" apparently. So I have high hopes of killing off Steve Rogers next movie.
In the long run, I'd love to see some alternate Thor's, Though I'd want them to recast Jane Foster if we're following comics continuity. (I still hold out hope for the Thor Corps, and/or Thunderstrike.)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:45 AM on May 1, 2018
Same in fact for Steve Rogers.
His contract is up but he's agreed to do a 7th movie because "It makes sense" apparently. So I have high hopes of killing off Steve Rogers next movie.
In the long run, I'd love to see some alternate Thor's, Though I'd want them to recast Jane Foster if we're following comics continuity. (I still hold out hope for the Thor Corps, and/or Thunderstrike.)
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:45 AM on May 1, 2018
> "... in a surprising DC cross-over, Arm-Fall-Off-Boy."
The MCU already has one of those, with better hair.
My prediction for the next movie:
The Snap is never undone. The entire film is two and a half hours of the remaining superheroes either stoically rebuilding Earth's destroyed infrastructure, or getting therapy. A solid, uninterrupted ten minutes is a single close-up shot of Rocket crying.
posted by kyrademon at 4:42 AM on May 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
The MCU already has one of those, with better hair.
My prediction for the next movie:
The Snap is never undone. The entire film is two and a half hours of the remaining superheroes either stoically rebuilding Earth's destroyed infrastructure, or getting therapy. A solid, uninterrupted ten minutes is a single close-up shot of Rocket crying.
posted by kyrademon at 4:42 AM on May 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
in a surprising DC cross-over, Arm-Fall-Off-Boy.
👏 MATTER 👏 EATER 👏 LAD 👏
posted by beerperson at 5:14 AM on May 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
👏 MATTER 👏 EATER 👏 LAD 👏
posted by beerperson at 5:14 AM on May 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
Loki is reincarnated in a later movie but it's really convoluted and he might also be a younger actor.
While Hela was off doing stuff, Loki erased his name from her book, and when he dies is reincarnated as Loki Laufeyson ( Kid Loki ) from that comic book arc.
posted by mikelieman at 5:16 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
While Hela was off doing stuff, Loki erased his name from her book, and when he dies is reincarnated as Loki Laufeyson ( Kid Loki ) from that comic book arc.
posted by mikelieman at 5:16 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:41 AM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Captain America is probably my favorite MCU character, and I'm going to say the unpopular thing:
I'm ready for him to make his permanent exit.
Not because I think he's overstayed his welcome, but because he's a great character and the longer he's around the more likely they are to do something to screw him up.
*cough*hydracap*cough*
Also voting for the new Loki to be played by Emily Deschanel.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:43 AM on May 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I'm ready for him to make his permanent exit.
Not because I think he's overstayed his welcome, but because he's a great character and the longer he's around the more likely they are to do something to screw him up.
*cough*hydracap*cough*
Also voting for the new Loki to be played by Emily Deschanel.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:43 AM on May 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I love Steve Rogers, and I love Tony Stark, but I love good story telling even more. I'm really hoping for them both to exit, but failing that, I'm happy with just Tony.
Like, I fell hard in love with his character in May 2018, like, really, seriously, not-kidding-it-changed-the-course-of-my-life-hard, his story arc is done. It's time for Death in Space.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:52 AM on May 1, 2018
Like, I fell hard in love with his character in May 2018, like, really, seriously, not-kidding-it-changed-the-course-of-my-life-hard, his story arc is done. It's time for Death in Space.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:52 AM on May 1, 2018
...yeah, if pressed, I would rather Cap have a good exit than let his character get turned into Hydra!Cap or something (or see Steve be replaced by a younger actor, which would be awful since Chris Evans is really singular in this role. Give the shield to Sam or Bucky instead to carry on the legacy.)
I kind of wish the alternate universe theory is real, because I'd love to see Bucky and Sam trapped together in this other world without Steve as the buffer between them while Steve is frantically trying to get everyone back. Sebastian Stan and Anthony Mackie are the best together, and their "I don't like you and your stupid face, but I'll have your back because of Steve" chemistry was one of the best things in Civil War. They can have their own side mission, like an interdimensional buddy cop movie! And T'Challa can be the reluctant straight man who constantly saves their asses while rolling his eyes at them!
Marvel, please take notes and make this happen.
posted by Salieri at 7:17 AM on May 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
I kind of wish the alternate universe theory is real, because I'd love to see Bucky and Sam trapped together in this other world without Steve as the buffer between them while Steve is frantically trying to get everyone back. Sebastian Stan and Anthony Mackie are the best together, and their "I don't like you and your stupid face, but I'll have your back because of Steve" chemistry was one of the best things in Civil War. They can have their own side mission, like an interdimensional buddy cop movie! And T'Challa can be the reluctant straight man who constantly saves their asses while rolling his eyes at them!
Marvel, please take notes and make this happen.
posted by Salieri at 7:17 AM on May 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Avengers: We Bring Him Back And Everyone Just Takes Turns Kicking Star-Lord In The Crotch.
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:36 AM on May 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:36 AM on May 1, 2018 [15 favorites]
It's kinda funny and a little bit sad, but I ADORED Starlord in the first Guardians. He hit every single one of my asshole hero buttons, and I was in love. The second movie, enh, he's alright. Still funny and sweet with a side of jerk, but a little less dynamic. This movie? I was over him five seconds into the voice thing with Thor. His insecurity and childishness were really obvious in this movie, and it was just so...annoying.
The worst part is, it's not out of character for him to be an ass. I think it's just that I may be changing my idea of the kind of character I enjoy.
Still love Rocket tho.
posted by teleri025 at 8:27 AM on May 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
The worst part is, it's not out of character for him to be an ass. I think it's just that I may be changing my idea of the kind of character I enjoy.
Still love Rocket tho.
posted by teleri025 at 8:27 AM on May 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
I just had a thought, if Tony and Steve get up to time shenanigans, few things would lead to a stronger Avengers when Thanos comes around than scooping up Bucky after his train fall and dropping him off circa Cap 2 without Winter Soldier programming with a Stark robot arm and a mission to find Steve and help him root out Hydra. No rift between Tony and Steve if Bucky didn't kill Tony's parents, so the Avengers are united against Thanos. You could also have a bunch of wiggle room to bring in the Fox properties if you posit that the Winter Soldier's kills over the years and their ripple effects snuffed out mutantkind before the public was aware of them and prevented the chain of events leading to the Fantastic Four and Doom becoming significant.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:38 AM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by jason_steakums at 8:38 AM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Avengers: We Bring Him Back And Everyone Just Takes Turns Kicking Star-Lord In The Crotch.
I can't be mad at Starlord over that part because that minute of the movie was so poorly written and artificial feeling. Peter Quill was obviously possessed by the spirit of "there's still an hour left in the movie" and isn't to blame for that decision.
So I've been following this thread ever since I saw the movie Friday morning, and I do agree that the emotional pull of the end deaths are (mostly) from the reactions of the people that see them go.
One theme of Infinity War 1 seemed to be that loving people makes you vulnerable and even weak. That weakness is how Thanos wins the infinity stones. How many times was someone given the choice of stopping Thanos or saving a loved one? Each time the person chooses the loved one - or if not, Thanos undoes the sacrifice, mocks them for it, and then kills one of them anyway. He himself gains the soul stone by being willing to kill the person he loves.
The movie's darkest emotional lodestone isn't death, it's how loving people makes you vulnerable in a terrible way that means you can experience things that are worse than death.
posted by Emily's Fist at 8:47 AM on May 1, 2018 [16 favorites]
I can't be mad at Starlord over that part because that minute of the movie was so poorly written and artificial feeling. Peter Quill was obviously possessed by the spirit of "there's still an hour left in the movie" and isn't to blame for that decision.
So I've been following this thread ever since I saw the movie Friday morning, and I do agree that the emotional pull of the end deaths are (mostly) from the reactions of the people that see them go.
One theme of Infinity War 1 seemed to be that loving people makes you vulnerable and even weak. That weakness is how Thanos wins the infinity stones. How many times was someone given the choice of stopping Thanos or saving a loved one? Each time the person chooses the loved one - or if not, Thanos undoes the sacrifice, mocks them for it, and then kills one of them anyway. He himself gains the soul stone by being willing to kill the person he loves.
The movie's darkest emotional lodestone isn't death, it's how loving people makes you vulnerable in a terrible way that means you can experience things that are worse than death.
posted by Emily's Fist at 8:47 AM on May 1, 2018 [16 favorites]
I wish the series had the courage just to kill half its cast and then explore the results, but the film was basically screaming that this can all be undone, with Dr. Strange having a 45-minute monologue saying he will never, under any circumstances, give up the time stone, even if the others dies because of it, and then immediately having it over to Thanos when Tony is threatened, and then him having a two hour scene where he explains where he has seen how they can win and telling Tony, basically, this is what I did so that we can win.
I never liked the fact that death in comic books is reversible. I only tolerated it in New Mutants after the Secret Wars nonsense because they were all traumatized by the experience and at least the comic spent some time recognizing how upsetting that would be and letting them process it, but even then, don't kill a character and then have an undo button. It removed the stakes of a story immediately.
posted by maxsparber at 9:00 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
I never liked the fact that death in comic books is reversible. I only tolerated it in New Mutants after the Secret Wars nonsense because they were all traumatized by the experience and at least the comic spent some time recognizing how upsetting that would be and letting them process it, but even then, don't kill a character and then have an undo button. It removed the stakes of a story immediately.
posted by maxsparber at 9:00 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
It very much remains to be seen how this will go, but for me if they undo the deaths of characters that physically were killed, instead of just snaptured, it will feel very different with regards to stakes.
And even then Tom Holland sold it, damn.
posted by flaterik at 9:02 AM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
And even then Tom Holland sold it, damn.
posted by flaterik at 9:02 AM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
The stakes aren't limited to death, though. If people (either everybody or at least the Avengers/GotG principals) come out of this knowing that someone could wipe out half of everybody with a snap of their fingers, and especially if the undoing is similarly yea close to not happening, what does that do to them going forward?
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:37 AM on May 1, 2018
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:37 AM on May 1, 2018
I've always loved Tom Hiddleston as Loki, but if we get the possibility of Kid Loki or One Direction Loki in his place I would shove him off the Bifrost so fast...
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:17 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 10:17 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
It would be nice to fade up at the end of the next movie to the Avengers at that schwarma shop, with Wolverine and The Beast and other superheroes not seen in MCU movies so far.
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:22 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by ZeusHumms at 10:22 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
And by Wolverine, we mean Laura Kinney, not James Howlett. Especially since I refuse to have a non-Jackman Wolvie, and agree with his assessment that it's time for him to retire.
posted by politikitty at 11:05 AM on May 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by politikitty at 11:05 AM on May 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
Around the time Thanos got the time stone, I started thinking that he was going to get the whole set and win. Thor made him pause enough that I started to doubt but then he did. I was starting to think that the wrong characters were being vanished - all the new ones. And then the movie ended. I was delighted, and laughed at the audacity of it. There was no weight to the deaths, it's true, but that was fine. If it had weight, I wouldn't have had the same joy at the subversion.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:05 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 11:05 AM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Haven't seen anyone else mention this so maybe it's just me: I was SO PLEASED that Loki died in the first 5-ish minutes. No redemption arc! Just getting his neck wrung like a scrawny farmyard chicken. That was deeply satisfying.
posted by orrnyereg at 12:13 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 12:13 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Well, he did attack thanos, the guy who brought him back to life. The redemption arc was in Ragnarok, this was just the payoff.
The whole "undying "bit makes me think that the scene was a setup
posted by eustatic at 12:18 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
The whole "undying "bit makes me think that the scene was a setup
posted by eustatic at 12:18 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
As Mrs Clanger is from Scotland, and I spent a year studying in Edinburgh, the most surreal part of the movie for us was the bit where the Exiled Avengers show up for a fight in Edinburgh Waverley Station.
Also, just before that there's the scene where Wanda and Vision are standing in front of a diner with the most Scottish sign in the universe, We Will Deep Fry Your Kebab.
posted by Major Clanger at 1:05 PM on May 1, 2018 [26 favorites]
Also, just before that there's the scene where Wanda and Vision are standing in front of a diner with the most Scottish sign in the universe, We Will Deep Fry Your Kebab.
posted by Major Clanger at 1:05 PM on May 1, 2018 [26 favorites]
At this point they really deserve a deep fried kebab. Even more than they deserved that shawarma.
posted by flaterik at 1:06 PM on May 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by flaterik at 1:06 PM on May 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Especially Thor. Dude has had a few really bad days right in a row.
posted by cooker girl at 1:18 PM on May 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by cooker girl at 1:18 PM on May 1, 2018 [4 favorites]
I was SO PLEASED that Loki died in the first 5-ish minutes. No redemption arc!
I loved the reminder from Strange at the beginning of Ragnarok that however much we viewers might love Loki, the people of MCU Earth view him as a scoundrel somewhere down there around Martin Shkreli and Osama Bin Laden.
posted by straight at 1:37 PM on May 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
I loved the reminder from Strange at the beginning of Ragnarok that however much we viewers might love Loki, the people of MCU Earth view him as a scoundrel somewhere down there around Martin Shkreli and Osama Bin Laden.
posted by straight at 1:37 PM on May 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
Continuing the Arrrested Development theme, I'm hoping that in the next movie, Thanos realises that he was completely set up by the Avengers and says in a deep voice, "I've made a huge mistake."
posted by daveje at 2:01 PM on May 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by daveje at 2:01 PM on May 1, 2018 [8 favorites]
While Final Countdown plays in the background.
posted by orrnyereg at 2:03 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 2:03 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Haven't seen anyone else mention this so maybe it's just me: I was SO PLEASED that Loki died in the first 5-ish minutes. No redemption arc! Just getting his neck wrung like a scrawny farmyard chicken. That was deeply satisfying.
He should have done "Get Help"
posted by zarq at 2:21 PM on May 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
He should have done "Get Help"
posted by zarq at 2:21 PM on May 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
OK but if the Final Countdown starts playing, we should definitely get some form of Loki back
posted by grandiloquiet at 2:34 PM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by grandiloquiet at 2:34 PM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Regarding the acquisition of rights to the X-Men and Fantastic Four, I wouldn't be surprised if the next movie ends something like this:
With Thanos defeated, the Gauntlet is used to reset things to how they were before the snap. The world appears to have been restored, but there is some exposition about how it's almost entirely back the way it used to be, but not exactly. Then at the very end of the movie there's a very short montage of people doing ordinary things in their ordinary lives, but exhibiting little strange abilities: a preteen kid getting picked on in school and hair suddenly popping out of the back of his hands, a person waking up in the morning and reaching for their glasses on the nightstand, only for the glasses, which are a few inches away, to suddenly zip into their hand, etc. Something that shows that new super powers are appearing in the population. No use of the word "mutant" or appearances by any known X-Men, just a few ordinary people with a few ordinary mutations.
Then the post-credit sequence has Tony working on some project in a lab together with another genius scientist, whom he calls "Reed."
posted by Bugbread at 2:34 PM on May 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
With Thanos defeated, the Gauntlet is used to reset things to how they were before the snap. The world appears to have been restored, but there is some exposition about how it's almost entirely back the way it used to be, but not exactly. Then at the very end of the movie there's a very short montage of people doing ordinary things in their ordinary lives, but exhibiting little strange abilities: a preteen kid getting picked on in school and hair suddenly popping out of the back of his hands, a person waking up in the morning and reaching for their glasses on the nightstand, only for the glasses, which are a few inches away, to suddenly zip into their hand, etc. Something that shows that new super powers are appearing in the population. No use of the word "mutant" or appearances by any known X-Men, just a few ordinary people with a few ordinary mutations.
Then the post-credit sequence has Tony working on some project in a lab together with another genius scientist, whom he calls "Reed."
posted by Bugbread at 2:34 PM on May 1, 2018 [10 favorites]
Thor vs. Hulk vs. Thanos
I thought it was pretty well established that Thor was actually stronger that the Hulk? Thanos, though, is a different level, at least traditionally -- he's managed to hurt Galactus, so . . .
Death overload == obvious nondeath
I left way more annoyed than sad. I mean, yes, they've "killed" a bunch of characters, but literally nobody thinks any of these people are going to stay dead past May of next year. It's an empty crisis. The remaining heros will defeat Thanos and use the Gauntlet to establish status quo ante bellum, more or less, and then you're off to the races again with more stories.
Why Strange gave up the stone
See The Unspoken Plan Guarantee over at TVTropes.
Strange saw one outcome where they win. He then said, when giving over the stone, that it was the only way.
Overall grade
C and falling, honestly. It's nowhere near top tier, which remains Panther > Winter Soldier > Ragnarok > Guardians 1, in that order.
Marvel & Mar-vell
"Personally I'm good with shunting Mar-Vell"
Jude Law plays Mar-Vell in next year's film.
posted by uberchet at 2:43 PM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I thought it was pretty well established that Thor was actually stronger that the Hulk? Thanos, though, is a different level, at least traditionally -- he's managed to hurt Galactus, so . . .
Death overload == obvious nondeath
I left way more annoyed than sad. I mean, yes, they've "killed" a bunch of characters, but literally nobody thinks any of these people are going to stay dead past May of next year. It's an empty crisis. The remaining heros will defeat Thanos and use the Gauntlet to establish status quo ante bellum, more or less, and then you're off to the races again with more stories.
Watching Peter Parker "die" is moving not because of some meta nonsense about whether Marvel has successfully hidden from me the details of Tom Holland's contract. If it's moving, it's because the writing and performance have pulled me in to empathize with the perspective of the characters, how Peter and Tony feel at that moment, not because I've somehow convinced myself to forget how fiction works.I'd say that, in a sequence where there are so many "deaths" that it's absurdly obvious that next to none will stick, yeah, it's cheap and unmoving. Instead of feeling wrenched when Tom Holland was chewing the scenery, I was mostly tapping my foot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, the saddest thing about the last ten minutes was that Tony wasn't one of the ones turned to ash.
I have trouble believing in this one's stakes: they're just too high.Exactly. The stakes here are huge enough to ruin any tension for me.
Why Strange gave up the stone
See The Unspoken Plan Guarantee over at TVTropes.
Strange saw one outcome where they win. He then said, when giving over the stone, that it was the only way.
Overall grade
C and falling, honestly. It's nowhere near top tier, which remains Panther > Winter Soldier > Ragnarok > Guardians 1, in that order.
Marvel & Mar-vell
"Personally I'm good with shunting Mar-Vell"
Jude Law plays Mar-Vell in next year's film.
posted by uberchet at 2:43 PM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also, I just fell down a YouTube hole, and the scene in Ultron that introduces Vision ends on a beat that, for me, is dramatically more rewarding and emotionally impactful than anything in IW.
posted by uberchet at 2:59 PM on May 1, 2018
posted by uberchet at 2:59 PM on May 1, 2018
Jude Law plays Mar-Vell in next year's film.
Which takes place in the 90s, so we can still shunt Mar-Vell from his Infinity War role.
Though I'm still an advocate of Reality A/B, and after the Antman/Wasp stinger we'll find out that Avengers 4 really isn't an Infinity War sequel. Sebatstian Stan said some spoilery things that continue to feed my ego that my theory might hold water.
posted by politikitty at 4:16 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Which takes place in the 90s, so we can still shunt Mar-Vell from his Infinity War role.
Though I'm still an advocate of Reality A/B, and after the Antman/Wasp stinger we'll find out that Avengers 4 really isn't an Infinity War sequel. Sebatstian Stan said some spoilery things that continue to feed my ego that my theory might hold water.
posted by politikitty at 4:16 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Avengers: Infinity War is a Reminder that Pop Culture Won’t Save Us
posted by Halloween Jack at 5:21 PM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
I want Bucky to scare some kids with his removable arm as a way to teach them why you always leave a note
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:23 PM on May 1, 2018 [28 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:23 PM on May 1, 2018 [28 favorites]
"I want Bucky to scare some kids with his removable arm as a way to teach them why you always leave a note"
Okay, I've been trying to figure this out on-and-off for like ten minutes now. What does this sentence mean?
posted by Bugbread at 5:40 PM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Okay, I've been trying to figure this out on-and-off for like ten minutes now. What does this sentence mean?
posted by Bugbread at 5:40 PM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Avengers: Infinity War is a Reminder that Pop Culture Won’t Save Us
Counter-argument: I don't want Peter Parker to remember his own death because he's like sixteen and already stiff with responsible helpful earnestness up to his eyeballs, and adding more horrific memories of helpless trauma on top of stuff like the time a building COLLAPSED on him is not going to teach him or anyone any valuable lessons. Unless the lesson is billionaire Tony Stark is one of history's greatest monsters for bringing a kid back to life, with his memories of being painfully disintegrated intact, and then not immediately paying for a lifetime of therapy.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:56 PM on May 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
Counter-argument: I don't want Peter Parker to remember his own death because he's like sixteen and already stiff with responsible helpful earnestness up to his eyeballs, and adding more horrific memories of helpless trauma on top of stuff like the time a building COLLAPSED on him is not going to teach him or anyone any valuable lessons. Unless the lesson is billionaire Tony Stark is one of history's greatest monsters for bringing a kid back to life, with his memories of being painfully disintegrated intact, and then not immediately paying for a lifetime of therapy.
posted by nicebookrack at 7:56 PM on May 1, 2018 [7 favorites]
The only useful/logical story reason for Peter Parker's death to have permanent effects on him would be if he *stayed dead* to make way for Miles Morales.
posted by nicebookrack at 8:02 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 8:02 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Have Miles Morales and Peter Parker never coexisted in the comics? It seems like you could have Miles Morales step in to fill the shoes of Peter Parker, and then have Peter come back later for a period of two Spider Men/Spider Mans, and then give Miles Morales a Spider Man-like alternative costume/name, like War Machine is to Iron Man.
posted by Bugbread at 8:20 PM on May 1, 2018
posted by Bugbread at 8:20 PM on May 1, 2018
I Just Realized That The Ladies In "Infinity War" Do All The Work
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:33 PM on May 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:33 PM on May 1, 2018 [3 favorites]
Breakdown of who does all the work in the movie (where "work" is defined as "contributing to a plan that could actually conceivably stop Thanos"):
posted by Bugbread at 10:04 PM on May 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
- Team Victory Potential Operation "Prevent Thanos from Finding the Stone" Gamora Operation "Remove Gauntlet" Doctor Strange Drax Iron Man Mantis Nebula Spider-Man Operation "Attack Thanos with a Weapon Capable of Killing Him" Eitri the Dwarf Rocket Thor
- Team Inconsequential Operation "Just Run Around in the Background Attacking Secondary Bad Guys" Black Panther Black Widow Captain America Falcon Groot Hulk Okoye War Machine Winter Soldier Operation "Other than the Above" Heimdall Loki Scarlet Witch Shuri Vision Bus Driver
- Team Failure Operation "Fuck Up Operation Prevent Thanos from Finding the Stone" Peter Quill Operation "Fuck Up Operation Remove Gauntlet" Peter Quill
posted by Bugbread at 10:04 PM on May 1, 2018 [18 favorites]
(I only watched it once, so some of the people in Operation "Other than the Above" may actually be members of Operation "Just Run Around in the Background Attacking Secondary Bad Guys," I just can't recall.
posted by Bugbread at 10:17 PM on May 1, 2018
posted by Bugbread at 10:17 PM on May 1, 2018
Spider Men/Spider Mans
The plural is Spiders-man
posted by DebetEsse at 10:19 PM on May 1, 2018 [25 favorites]
The plural is Spiders-man
posted by DebetEsse at 10:19 PM on May 1, 2018 [25 favorites]
No way, Groot belongs firmly in Operation "Attack Thanos with a Weapon Capable of Killing Him". He provided the handle, after all!
posted by Salieri at 10:37 PM on May 1, 2018 [9 favorites]
posted by Salieri at 10:37 PM on May 1, 2018 [9 favorites]
Oh, right! Sorry, forgot about that.
Dang 5 minute edit window...
posted by Bugbread at 10:43 PM on May 1, 2018
Dang 5 minute edit window...
posted by Bugbread at 10:43 PM on May 1, 2018
I just remembered part of the movie that I thought was interesting given the two positions of "sure, people die, but you know they're coming back, so there's no gravity" and "sure, you know people are coming back, but what's interesting is how things are affecting the characters, not what we as the audience know" thing:
Having read the comic, and watching the general progress of the movie, and knowing it was a two-parter, it became pretty clear to me at about the halfway point that by the end of the movie he would collect all the stones. That didn't inhibit my enjoyment at all, except in the Scarlet Witch-killing-Vision scene. It just felt so draggy, since I knew Scarlet Witch wouldn't be able to destroy it in time, but it just kept going on and on.
And then she destroyed it! That totally caught me by surprise.
Then Thanos rolled back time and got the stone, and that also caught me by surprise.
It didn't feel cheap, it was more an "oh! oh, yeah, he can do that!" excitement.
I'm not really trying to make a point, it's just that it was (for me) an interesting mix of being surprised by a turn of events in a story I thought I had predicted, and of being entertained by a rollback.
posted by Bugbread at 10:52 PM on May 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
Having read the comic, and watching the general progress of the movie, and knowing it was a two-parter, it became pretty clear to me at about the halfway point that by the end of the movie he would collect all the stones. That didn't inhibit my enjoyment at all, except in the Scarlet Witch-killing-Vision scene. It just felt so draggy, since I knew Scarlet Witch wouldn't be able to destroy it in time, but it just kept going on and on.
And then she destroyed it! That totally caught me by surprise.
Then Thanos rolled back time and got the stone, and that also caught me by surprise.
It didn't feel cheap, it was more an "oh! oh, yeah, he can do that!" excitement.
I'm not really trying to make a point, it's just that it was (for me) an interesting mix of being surprised by a turn of events in a story I thought I had predicted, and of being entertained by a rollback.
posted by Bugbread at 10:52 PM on May 1, 2018 [6 favorites]
Wanda is clearly in both team "Just Run Around in the Background Attacking Secondary Bad Guys" and team "Prevent Thanos from Finding the Stone" (along with Vision, since he's the stone).
I saw the movie twice, Saturday and Monday (not that I really wanted to, but plans just kinda coalesced) and I was actually more emotionally devastated at the "deaths" the second time around. I think I was able to ignore the plot that I already knew about and concentrate on things that usually escape me on first watch, like some expressions and the nuances in characters. Mantis' mean face was definitely one thing that I missed the first round. And everyone's different expressions as they were fading away. Peter's was the most painful to watch, since it reminded me too much of the 10th Doctor.
posted by numaner at 11:08 PM on May 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
I saw the movie twice, Saturday and Monday (not that I really wanted to, but plans just kinda coalesced) and I was actually more emotionally devastated at the "deaths" the second time around. I think I was able to ignore the plot that I already knew about and concentrate on things that usually escape me on first watch, like some expressions and the nuances in characters. Mantis' mean face was definitely one thing that I missed the first round. And everyone's different expressions as they were fading away. Peter's was the most painful to watch, since it reminded me too much of the 10th Doctor.
posted by numaner at 11:08 PM on May 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Operation "Other than the Above"
Heimdall
Loki
Scarlet Witch
Shuri
Vision
Bus Driver
Heimdall: did manage to get the Hulk outta there, so there's that.
Loki: Loki being Loki, got killed for it. Other than the above totally fitting there.
Scarlet Witch, Shuri, Vision: Operation Save Vision, At Least Come Up With Some Way Not To Kill Him
Bus Driver: Again, "other than the above" applies.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:26 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
Heimdall
Loki
Scarlet Witch
Shuri
Vision
Bus Driver
Heimdall: did manage to get the Hulk outta there, so there's that.
Loki: Loki being Loki, got killed for it. Other than the above totally fitting there.
Scarlet Witch, Shuri, Vision: Operation Save Vision, At Least Come Up With Some Way Not To Kill Him
Bus Driver: Again, "other than the above" applies.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:26 PM on May 1, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Wanda is clearly in both team "Just Run Around in the Background Attacking Secondary Bad Guys" and team "Prevent Thanos from Finding the Stone" (along with Vision, since he's the stone)."
Right, but there was no victory potential there. All of the other teams would have won if they successfully pulled of their plans: Gamora if she killed herself, Thor if he aimed for the head, Team Glove if they had removed the glove. Scarlet Witch and Vision, on the other hand, did pull off their plan, but it didn't make a difference, because Thanos had the Time Stone.
(And, by that token, maybe Gamora should be moved to Team Inconsequential, because once Thanos got the Time Stone he could have undone that. But if Thor axed Thanos he wouldn't be alive to roll back time, and if Team Titan had pulled off the glove, he wouldn't have had the glove to roll back time, so they all stay in Team Victory Potential)
(And I'm being silly by putting Bus Driver in Team Inconsequential. I didn't mean that they were useless or stupid or anything, just that while they played their own parts and worked hard and made sacrifices, etc., they all had goals which had no actual potential to stop Thanos, no matter how successful they were at achieving those goals. None of that was their fault, and they were certainly doing their best.)
posted by Bugbread at 11:37 PM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Right, but there was no victory potential there. All of the other teams would have won if they successfully pulled of their plans: Gamora if she killed herself, Thor if he aimed for the head, Team Glove if they had removed the glove. Scarlet Witch and Vision, on the other hand, did pull off their plan, but it didn't make a difference, because Thanos had the Time Stone.
(And, by that token, maybe Gamora should be moved to Team Inconsequential, because once Thanos got the Time Stone he could have undone that. But if Thor axed Thanos he wouldn't be alive to roll back time, and if Team Titan had pulled off the glove, he wouldn't have had the glove to roll back time, so they all stay in Team Victory Potential)
(And I'm being silly by putting Bus Driver in Team Inconsequential. I didn't mean that they were useless or stupid or anything, just that while they played their own parts and worked hard and made sacrifices, etc., they all had goals which had no actual potential to stop Thanos, no matter how successful they were at achieving those goals. None of that was their fault, and they were certainly doing their best.)
posted by Bugbread at 11:37 PM on May 1, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ned was on Team Provide Useful Distraction!
Black Widow and Okoye directly saved the life of Scarlet Witch, so inasmuch as her Other Than The Above was useful, so were they.
I think Hulk and Bruce Banner should be on separate teams, since Hulk was straight-up refusing to help at all, while Bruce at least provided intel on Thanos and warned Captain America that Thanos's crew would be gunning for Vision.
M'Baku was on Team Inconsequential in the movie, but never in my heart.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:43 PM on May 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Black Widow and Okoye directly saved the life of Scarlet Witch, so inasmuch as her Other Than The Above was useful, so were they.
I think Hulk and Bruce Banner should be on separate teams, since Hulk was straight-up refusing to help at all, while Bruce at least provided intel on Thanos and warned Captain America that Thanos's crew would be gunning for Vision.
M'Baku was on Team Inconsequential in the movie, but never in my heart.
posted by nicebookrack at 11:43 PM on May 1, 2018 [5 favorites]
Poor Hulk, everyone forgets that he went head to head with Thanos at the start of the move. "Sure, but what have you done for me lately?"
And Ted joins everyone in the UberTeam, Operation "Butterfly Effect." If it weren't for Ted, Peter Parker would have been stuck on the bus... If it weren't for the teacher who arranged the field trip, they all would have been stuck in class... If it weren't for the teacher's parents, Peter's teacher would never have been born...If it weren't for...
posted by Bugbread at 12:14 AM on May 2, 2018
And Ted joins everyone in the UberTeam, Operation "Butterfly Effect." If it weren't for Ted, Peter Parker would have been stuck on the bus... If it weren't for the teacher who arranged the field trip, they all would have been stuck in class... If it weren't for the teacher's parents, Peter's teacher would never have been born...If it weren't for...
posted by Bugbread at 12:14 AM on May 2, 2018
A whole bunch of people you have listed under inconsequential were attempting to destroy an infinity stone (Scarlet Witch, Vision, Shuri, and actually most of the people in the big fight on earth), or tried to directly kill Thanos (Loki, Hulk), and so on.
If "their plan didn't work" puts you on Team Inconsequential then EVERYONE should end up on Team Inconsequential except for Doctor Strange (not actually on "Operation Remove Gaunlet" but "Operation Use Time Stone To Win") and Thanos. Quill can stay on Team Failure, though, sure.
Also, Groot was essential in the "Attack Thanos with a Weapon Capable of Killing Him" plan and should be moved there.
posted by kyrademon at 2:55 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
If "their plan didn't work" puts you on Team Inconsequential then EVERYONE should end up on Team Inconsequential except for Doctor Strange (not actually on "Operation Remove Gaunlet" but "Operation Use Time Stone To Win") and Thanos. Quill can stay on Team Failure, though, sure.
Also, Groot was essential in the "Attack Thanos with a Weapon Capable of Killing Him" plan and should be moved there.
posted by kyrademon at 2:55 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I Just Realized That The Ladies In "Infinity War" Do All The Work
Heimdall, Thor, Dr. Strange, Spidey and Stark would disagree.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:48 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Heimdall, Thor, Dr. Strange, Spidey and Stark would disagree.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:48 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Operation "Just Run Around in the Background Attacking Secondary Bad Guys"
Yeah, I can't take that list even remotely seriously if this is category. The whole point was to stall for time so Shuri could finish her task and then Wanda could destroy the stone and Vision's life saved.
We can argue about whether trying to save Vision was a good idea, but the people fighting that battle weren't Inconsequential, accept in hindsight and that always 20/20.
You need to hand over your Superhero List Making card, sorry.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:58 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Yeah, I can't take that list even remotely seriously if this is category. The whole point was to stall for time so Shuri could finish her task and then Wanda could destroy the stone and Vision's life saved.
We can argue about whether trying to save Vision was a good idea, but the people fighting that battle weren't Inconsequential, accept in hindsight and that always 20/20.
You need to hand over your Superhero List Making card, sorry.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:58 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
"If "their plan didn't work" puts you on Team Inconsequential then EVERYONE should end up on Team Inconsequential except for Doctor Strange"
Either I'm explaining myself poorly or I'm missing something.
Team Inconsequential are folks who wouldn't have beaten Thanos even if their plans had worked. If we consider everyone in Wakanda to be on the "destroy the stone" mission, then they all succeeded, and it had doodly squat to do with stopping Thanos, since he had the Time Stone.
If Thor's axe had hit Thanos in the head, on the other hand, Thanos would have died. End of movie. The fact that Thanos had the time stone, or in fact all five stones, would've meant doodly squat. If Thor accomplished his aim, Thanos would be dead.
If Team Titan had gotten the glove off Thanos, as long as someone else had the sense to put it on, Thanos would have died/been imprisoned in an alternate universe/be made 1 cm tall/whatever. End of movie. If they accomplished their aim, Thanos would be rendered powerless.
Team Stormbringer and Team Glove had plans that would've beaten Thanos if successful. Team Gamora and Team Vision had plans that even if they succeeded (and, indeed, for Team Vision, even when it succeeded), wouldn't beat Thanos.
And, yes, of course that is in hindsight. I'm not saying they were dumb. Hell, I read the comics and had the meta-knowledge of being a viewer that knows that this is the first half of a two-parter, and even I didn't think of the Time Stone as a way to bring back Vision's stone. I'm certainly not bagging on any of the characters and saying they were wasting time, or weak, or stupid, or unheroic, or doing anything other than the best they could with the knowledge they had in the situations they were in. Team Inconsequential isn't an insult. Team Failure is.
If the dividing line between "Consequential" and "Inconsequential" is "they at least tried to take down Thanos" vs. "They didn't even try", then it becomes more like:
posted by Bugbread at 4:58 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Either I'm explaining myself poorly or I'm missing something.
Team Inconsequential are folks who wouldn't have beaten Thanos even if their plans had worked. If we consider everyone in Wakanda to be on the "destroy the stone" mission, then they all succeeded, and it had doodly squat to do with stopping Thanos, since he had the Time Stone.
If Thor's axe had hit Thanos in the head, on the other hand, Thanos would have died. End of movie. The fact that Thanos had the time stone, or in fact all five stones, would've meant doodly squat. If Thor accomplished his aim, Thanos would be dead.
If Team Titan had gotten the glove off Thanos, as long as someone else had the sense to put it on, Thanos would have died/been imprisoned in an alternate universe/be made 1 cm tall/whatever. End of movie. If they accomplished their aim, Thanos would be rendered powerless.
Team Stormbringer and Team Glove had plans that would've beaten Thanos if successful. Team Gamora and Team Vision had plans that even if they succeeded (and, indeed, for Team Vision, even when it succeeded), wouldn't beat Thanos.
And, yes, of course that is in hindsight. I'm not saying they were dumb. Hell, I read the comics and had the meta-knowledge of being a viewer that knows that this is the first half of a two-parter, and even I didn't think of the Time Stone as a way to bring back Vision's stone. I'm certainly not bagging on any of the characters and saying they were wasting time, or weak, or stupid, or unheroic, or doing anything other than the best they could with the knowledge they had in the situations they were in. Team Inconsequential isn't an insult. Team Failure is.
If the dividing line between "Consequential" and "Inconsequential" is "they at least tried to take down Thanos" vs. "They didn't even try", then it becomes more like:
Team Consequential:
- Every superhero in the movie
- Hawkeye
- Antman
- Nick Fury
- Howard the Duck (he's in the MCU, right? In the background of some scene?)
posted by Bugbread at 4:58 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Black Widow and Okoye directly saved the life of Scarlet Witch, so inasmuch as her Other Than The Above was useful, so were they.
I did like that when Scarlet Witch came out and did some ass-kicking, Okoye watched, then turned to Black Widow and said "and we've been keeping her inside this whole time?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 AM on May 2, 2018 [15 favorites]
I did like that when Scarlet Witch came out and did some ass-kicking, Okoye watched, then turned to Black Widow and said "and we've been keeping her inside this whole time?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 AM on May 2, 2018 [15 favorites]
I want to be honest here folks. I think Vision is among the easiest and first to be back after this. Or at least returned to his Jarvis in a body state. Shuri downloaded his entire brain and functionality into Wakanda's computer system in order to understand how to reconnect the mind stone. Wakanda doesn't suffer from frequent power outages or limits to storage... so... I suspect, everything necessary to make vision still exists.
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:58 AM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 6:58 AM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
This is what is frustrating about time travel. Once it is introduced EVERYONE is Team Inconsequential.
posted by dirtdirt at 7:00 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by dirtdirt at 7:00 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
This is what is frustrating about time travel. Once it is introduced EVERYONE is Team Inconsequential.
Exactly. People keep saying that Loki and Heimdall are probably permanently dead. But if time travel is involved, there's literally no reason why they have to be.
I have sneaking suspicion/hope that Marvel isn't going to go the easy route on this. Thanos wiped out half the universe, including regular folk, as seen in the end stinger. If they're serious about changing direction and tone going forward, as they keep saying, then not completely erasing that would do trick.
Fingers crossed!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:18 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Exactly. People keep saying that Loki and Heimdall are probably permanently dead. But if time travel is involved, there's literally no reason why they have to be.
I have sneaking suspicion/hope that Marvel isn't going to go the easy route on this. Thanos wiped out half the universe, including regular folk, as seen in the end stinger. If they're serious about changing direction and tone going forward, as they keep saying, then not completely erasing that would do trick.
Fingers crossed!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:18 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
If Heimdall doesn't come back, I'm gonna need like at least 50% more M'Baku in every movie thereafter to make up for it.
posted by TwoStride at 7:34 AM on May 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
posted by TwoStride at 7:34 AM on May 2, 2018 [14 favorites]
Howard the Duck (he's in the MCU, right? In the background of some scene?)
I was very much hoping that when they went to see the Collector, Howard would be in the background drinking a martini.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:41 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
I was very much hoping that when they went to see the Collector, Howard would be in the background drinking a martini.
posted by Pope Guilty at 7:41 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
> "Team Inconsequential are folks who wouldn't have beaten Thanos even if their plans had worked ..."
Then that's ... still everyone but Doctor Strange, isn't it? It is literally established in the movie that there is no possibility of the "Remove Gauntlet" or "Attack Thanos with a Weapon Capable of Killing Him" plans could ever have been successful, and Gamora's "Prevent Thanos from Finding the Stone" plan, while a good idea, really would have just been a delaying tactic.
posted by kyrademon at 7:47 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Then that's ... still everyone but Doctor Strange, isn't it? It is literally established in the movie that there is no possibility of the "Remove Gauntlet" or "Attack Thanos with a Weapon Capable of Killing Him" plans could ever have been successful, and Gamora's "Prevent Thanos from Finding the Stone" plan, while a good idea, really would have just been a delaying tactic.
posted by kyrademon at 7:47 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Wow. That movie.
I left thinking "did that just really happen?!?!"
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:49 AM on May 2, 2018
I left thinking "did that just really happen?!?!"
posted by Annika Cicada at 7:49 AM on May 2, 2018
"It is literally established in the movie that there is no possibility of the "Remove Gauntlet" or "Attack Thanos with a Weapon Capable of Killing Him" plans could ever have been successful"
It is?
Is this like one of those philosophical things like "the only weather forecasts that can be correct are 0% chance of rain or 100% chance of rain, because it either rains or it doesn't, so any number other than 0 or 100 is wrong" things?
If so, then, sure, everyone's plans were equally bad, and no plan could have ever been successful because they weren't. Likewise, Thanos could never have chosen an approach other than killing half the universe because he didn't, Quill could never have chosen not to hit Thanos because he didn't, etc.
If that's not the angle you're coming from, then I don't see how Remove Gauntlet had no possibility of success. If Quill hadn't punched Thanos, Team Titan would have taken the gauntlet.
Likewise, I don't see how Attack with Stormbreaker had no possibility of success. Even Thanos says "You should have gone for the head," not "Even if you had gone for the head, there is no possibility that your attack would have been successful."
posted by Bugbread at 7:59 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
It is?
Is this like one of those philosophical things like "the only weather forecasts that can be correct are 0% chance of rain or 100% chance of rain, because it either rains or it doesn't, so any number other than 0 or 100 is wrong" things?
If so, then, sure, everyone's plans were equally bad, and no plan could have ever been successful because they weren't. Likewise, Thanos could never have chosen an approach other than killing half the universe because he didn't, Quill could never have chosen not to hit Thanos because he didn't, etc.
If that's not the angle you're coming from, then I don't see how Remove Gauntlet had no possibility of success. If Quill hadn't punched Thanos, Team Titan would have taken the gauntlet.
Likewise, I don't see how Attack with Stormbreaker had no possibility of success. Even Thanos says "You should have gone for the head," not "Even if you had gone for the head, there is no possibility that your attack would have been successful."
posted by Bugbread at 7:59 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Or, rephrased:
If Thor had hit Thanos in the head with Stormbringer, how do you posit Thanos would have survived?
If Quill had not hit Thanos, snapping him out of his Mantis-instigated trance, how do you posit Thanos would have retained the glove?
posted by Bugbread at 8:04 AM on May 2, 2018
If Thor had hit Thanos in the head with Stormbringer, how do you posit Thanos would have survived?
If Quill had not hit Thanos, snapping him out of his Mantis-instigated trance, how do you posit Thanos would have retained the glove?
posted by Bugbread at 8:04 AM on May 2, 2018
Groot's arm is the handle of Thor's Axe, could he maybe regrow from that?
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:08 AM on May 2, 2018
posted by Annika Cicada at 8:08 AM on May 2, 2018
> "Is this like one of those philosophical things ..."
No, I say that because in 14,000,000+ futures that were checked, presumably some where the "get the glove off Thanos" plan or other plans worked, they still didn't win. (Note Doctor Strange conspicuously *not* restraining Starlord from behaving like an idiot and slapping Thanos, which he could have done easily.)
> "If Quill had not hit Thanos, snapping him out of his Mantis-instigated trance, how do you posit Thanos would have retained the glove?"
I can think of lots of ways, e.g.: Spider-Man gets the glove off Thanos. Spider-Man puts the glove on, thinking, "now I'll end this once and for all!" Spider-Man promptly disintegrates because he just put on a glove with multiple Infinity Gems in it and the movie established that not many entities can do that and survive and Spider-Man probably ain't one of them. Thanos picks up glove from disintegrated Spider-Man's corpse, continues as planned.
> "If Thor had hit Thanos in the head with Stormbringer, how do you posit Thanos would have survived?"
Harder to say, I'll admit, but perhaps in the three or four futures out of fourteen million where Thor opts to go for the headshot rather than the cool quip (it is Thor, so I'm guessing that's a limited number), Thanos worried about it a bit more and used the Reality Stone to turn him into a Picasso first.
"I used our most powerful asset to look at the future and determined these plans will not work" pretty much establishes that those plans wouldn't have worked.
posted by kyrademon at 8:16 AM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
No, I say that because in 14,000,000+ futures that were checked, presumably some where the "get the glove off Thanos" plan or other plans worked, they still didn't win. (Note Doctor Strange conspicuously *not* restraining Starlord from behaving like an idiot and slapping Thanos, which he could have done easily.)
> "If Quill had not hit Thanos, snapping him out of his Mantis-instigated trance, how do you posit Thanos would have retained the glove?"
I can think of lots of ways, e.g.: Spider-Man gets the glove off Thanos. Spider-Man puts the glove on, thinking, "now I'll end this once and for all!" Spider-Man promptly disintegrates because he just put on a glove with multiple Infinity Gems in it and the movie established that not many entities can do that and survive and Spider-Man probably ain't one of them. Thanos picks up glove from disintegrated Spider-Man's corpse, continues as planned.
> "If Thor had hit Thanos in the head with Stormbringer, how do you posit Thanos would have survived?"
Harder to say, I'll admit, but perhaps in the three or four futures out of fourteen million where Thor opts to go for the headshot rather than the cool quip (it is Thor, so I'm guessing that's a limited number), Thanos worried about it a bit more and used the Reality Stone to turn him into a Picasso first.
"I used our most powerful asset to look at the future and determined these plans will not work" pretty much establishes that those plans wouldn't have worked.
posted by kyrademon at 8:16 AM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
The mystery is what distinguishes this apparent-total-failure-but-actually-secret-foundation-for-a-win from the 14,000,000 actual total failures.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:41 AM on May 2, 2018
posted by paper chromatographologist at 8:41 AM on May 2, 2018
It's kinda funny and a little bit sad, but I ADORED Starlord in the first Guardians.
I really feel like all of the original Guardians characters, with the possible exception of Nebula, have gone downhill since the first movie, in varying amounts. I'm ready to let go of them, and move on to Guardians 2.0 with Mantis and some new characters.
the most Scottish sign in the universe, We Will Deep Fry Your Kebab.
I laughed at that too, and my spouse glanced at me oddly. There's an implicit "...and you'll like it" in there.
Also: you'll have tea. (Not a question, just a statement of fact with undertones of threat.)
posted by Foosnark at 9:00 AM on May 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
I really feel like all of the original Guardians characters, with the possible exception of Nebula, have gone downhill since the first movie, in varying amounts. I'm ready to let go of them, and move on to Guardians 2.0 with Mantis and some new characters.
the most Scottish sign in the universe, We Will Deep Fry Your Kebab.
I laughed at that too, and my spouse glanced at me oddly. There's an implicit "...and you'll like it" in there.
Also: you'll have tea. (Not a question, just a statement of fact with undertones of threat.)
posted by Foosnark at 9:00 AM on May 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
Guardians of the Galaxy Vol 3: Rocket Raccoon, Howard the Duck, and Cosmo the Spacedog
posted by Nanukthedog at 9:26 AM on May 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by Nanukthedog at 9:26 AM on May 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
Groot's arm is the handle of Thor's Axe, could he maybe regrow from that?
I’m guessing that would technically make him Groot’s grandson
posted by romakimmy at 9:38 AM on May 2, 2018
I’m guessing that would technically make him Groot’s grandson
posted by romakimmy at 9:38 AM on May 2, 2018
I've been chewing on this movie - it had a whole bunch of kick-ass female roles, but did it pass the Bechdel test? Not that the test is bulletproof - Gravity does not, since Sandra Bullock plays the only named female role, while some random Gangsters in New York movie (I forget) does, when the mistress talks to the hairdresser. But it's still a useful indicator.
> I did like that when Scarlet Witch came out and did some ass-kicking, Okoye watched, then turned to Black Widow and said "and we've been keeping her inside this whole time?"
I think this may be the precise moment that the movie passes the Bechdel test?
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:43 AM on May 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
> I did like that when Scarlet Witch came out and did some ass-kicking, Okoye watched, then turned to Black Widow and said "and we've been keeping her inside this whole time?"
I think this may be the precise moment that the movie passes the Bechdel test?
posted by RedOrGreen at 9:43 AM on May 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
either that or when Black Widow threatens Proxima Midnight, unless Gamora has some lines with Mantis...
posted by eustatic at 9:59 AM on May 2, 2018
posted by eustatic at 9:59 AM on May 2, 2018
I liked that the Edinburgh locations were all plausibly located. (I too often get told off for criticising films set in London that zip between Greenwich and Westminster in a blink of an eye).
But they start out in what looks like Cockburn street to me, then have a fight around the Royal Mile and St Giles Cathedral before crashing into Waverley Station.
It's all tremendously plausible.
Though I think the deep fried kebab shop is actually a little jewellery shop.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 10:02 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
But they start out in what looks like Cockburn street to me, then have a fight around the Royal Mile and St Giles Cathedral before crashing into Waverley Station.
It's all tremendously plausible.
Though I think the deep fried kebab shop is actually a little jewellery shop.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 10:02 AM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
I’m guessing that would technically make him Groot’s grandson
"One day I was walking and I found this big log. Then I rolled the log over and underneath was a tiny little stick. And I was like, 'That log had a child!'..."
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:36 AM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
"One day I was walking and I found this big log. Then I rolled the log over and underneath was a tiny little stick. And I was like, 'That log had a child!'..."
posted by Strange Interlude at 10:36 AM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
I think this may be the precise moment that the movie passes the Bechdel test?
Eh, technically. Though more than a quip w would have been nice.
A more interesting question to me is whether or passes the Mako Moro Test:
The film does at least pass the "Sexy Lamp" test. Arguably The Vision fails that test.
I would really like to see a Marvel film pass the "Crystal Gems" test. Not gonna happen.
posted by happyroach at 10:38 AM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Eh, technically. Though more than a quip w would have been nice.
A more interesting question to me is whether or passes the Mako Moro Test:
The Mako Mori test is passed if the movie has: a) at least one female character; b) who gets her own narrative arc; c) that is not about supporting a man’s story.And in that respect I think the movie is iffy. Yes Gamo rags an arc where she tries to kill her father, but ultimately her arc and death serve to further those of Thanos and Peter. So I'll come down on this as a "no".
The film does at least pass the "Sexy Lamp" test. Arguably The Vision fails that test.
I would really like to see a Marvel film pass the "Crystal Gems" test. Not gonna happen.
posted by happyroach at 10:38 AM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Strange Interlude: you forgot the link for that log had a child! (Warning: earworm)
posted by Pronoiac at 10:48 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 10:48 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
It should've passed the Bechdel test far earlier no? because Natasha was scolding Wanda for going off-grid after the Edinburgh episode. And yeah, I couldn't help tracking the Edinburgh fight, and geographically and spatially it made sense, mind you my best memories of those locations comes from having no money on Hogmanay's Eve and just waiting for the fireworks.
posted by cendawanita at 10:52 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 10:52 AM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I can't remember how much of a conversation child Gamora has with her mom, but it may qualify.
posted by zarq at 10:55 AM on May 2, 2018
posted by zarq at 10:55 AM on May 2, 2018
having to strain to see if a film passes the Bechdel test may be indicative of something
posted by beerperson at 11:02 AM on May 2, 2018 [15 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 11:02 AM on May 2, 2018 [15 favorites]
I wonder if there's an website about whether movies pass the Bechdel test.
Spoiler: sorry, but it's all about the mens.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:12 AM on May 2, 2018
Spoiler: sorry, but it's all about the mens.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:12 AM on May 2, 2018
having to strain to see if a film passes the Bechdel test may be indicative of something
I think there are at least 3 or 4 scenes that qualify. But when we ask ourselves what "about a man" means, the story makes it more complicated. If two or three women are talking to each other but the purpose of the battle they are simultaneously fighting (or referring to) is to protect a man, Vision, does that qualify as a positive Bechdel?
posted by zarq at 11:14 AM on May 2, 2018
I think there are at least 3 or 4 scenes that qualify. But when we ask ourselves what "about a man" means, the story makes it more complicated. If two or three women are talking to each other but the purpose of the battle they are simultaneously fighting (or referring to) is to protect a man, Vision, does that qualify as a positive Bechdel?
posted by zarq at 11:14 AM on May 2, 2018
Nope, still talking about a man.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:16 AM on May 2, 2018
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:16 AM on May 2, 2018
I don't think the movie passes the Bechdel or if it does, it's by a small margin.
That's ok. Not great, not terrible, just ok. Thanos is protagonist, so in this instance it is all about that guy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:29 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's ok. Not great, not terrible, just ok. Thanos is protagonist, so in this instance it is all about that guy.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:29 AM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
I’m guessing that would technically make him Groot’s grandson
/me pouts angrily and makes up her own headcannon because FUCK THAT Groot lives.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:44 AM on May 2, 2018
/me pouts angrily and makes up her own headcannon because FUCK THAT Groot lives.
posted by Annika Cicada at 11:44 AM on May 2, 2018
I'd say that, in a sequence where there are so many "deaths" that it's absurdly obvious that next to none will stick, yeah, it's cheap and unmoving. Instead of feeling wrenched when Tom Holland was chewing the scenery, I was mostly tapping my foot. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Honestly, the saddest thing about the last ten minutes was that Tony wasn't one of the ones turned to ash.
Full disclosure - I haven't seen the film, but have let myself get spoiled for the reason that I've been making my way through the Marvel films with my two boys. I've been skipping the clunkers - Thor: Dark World, Iron Man 2,, but been trying to work through them relatively faithfully (I thought I could skip Age of Ultron but Civil War then turns into a bunch of "Who is that?" questions. So I have to circle back to that one.)
So, we're not all the way caught up (still have Spiderman: Homecoming, Thor:Ragnarok, and Black Panther at a minimum, I think), but I want to share something here because the level of death that happens in this movie is potentially lessened for us, the cynical jaded genre fans, but not for those who are new to this. I had kids in tears at the end of Civil War because of the fight between Cap, Tony, and Bucky - because it was so serious, and the stakes had risen dramatically from the airport fight. It upset them greatly to see two of their favourites - Cap and Iron Man - beating each other down. So, when they were really bugging me that they wanted to see Infinity War this weekend, I figured I better know what I was potentially getting into.
So I've really cooled my jets on the whole project, because yeah - maybe I over-estimated what my kids could handle and that's on me, but also because I didn't think about what they know and understand about the conventions of super-hero worlds. Obvious to us may not be obvious to everyone, is my long-winded point; for some people in the audience out there watching these heroes die is the first time they've experienced it.
And I think making the choice to have Tony live is actually the smart move in terms of his character & arc - ever since the first Avengers he's really been trying to protect people and taking failures to heart - so to let him sit with this moment and not get out of it with dying is actually the more interesting choice.
posted by nubs at 11:51 AM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Full disclosure - I haven't seen the film, but have let myself get spoiled for the reason that I've been making my way through the Marvel films with my two boys. I've been skipping the clunkers - Thor: Dark World, Iron Man 2,, but been trying to work through them relatively faithfully (I thought I could skip Age of Ultron but Civil War then turns into a bunch of "Who is that?" questions. So I have to circle back to that one.)
So, we're not all the way caught up (still have Spiderman: Homecoming, Thor:Ragnarok, and Black Panther at a minimum, I think), but I want to share something here because the level of death that happens in this movie is potentially lessened for us, the cynical jaded genre fans, but not for those who are new to this. I had kids in tears at the end of Civil War because of the fight between Cap, Tony, and Bucky - because it was so serious, and the stakes had risen dramatically from the airport fight. It upset them greatly to see two of their favourites - Cap and Iron Man - beating each other down. So, when they were really bugging me that they wanted to see Infinity War this weekend, I figured I better know what I was potentially getting into.
So I've really cooled my jets on the whole project, because yeah - maybe I over-estimated what my kids could handle and that's on me, but also because I didn't think about what they know and understand about the conventions of super-hero worlds. Obvious to us may not be obvious to everyone, is my long-winded point; for some people in the audience out there watching these heroes die is the first time they've experienced it.
And I think making the choice to have Tony live is actually the smart move in terms of his character & arc - ever since the first Avengers he's really been trying to protect people and taking failures to heart - so to let him sit with this moment and not get out of it with dying is actually the more interesting choice.
posted by nubs at 11:51 AM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
If Thor had hit Thanos in the head with Stormbringer, how do you posit Thanos would have survived?
When Stark asks Strange about the 14 million futures, he doesn't ask "How many times do we kill Thanos" or "How many times do we get the gauntlet", he asks "How many did we win?". Winning for Doctor Strange is probably not (necessarily or just) killing Thanos or getting the gauntlet. More likely his win condition is regaining the time stone for himself and destroying and scattering the other stones, so no one else destroys half the population of the universe two movies later or otherwise wields that much power.
If Peter Quill gets the gauntlet and tries to bring Gamora back, I doubt he does so without collateral damage to the universe. Maybe he thinks about the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man accidentally.
Or, Thor puts on the gauntlet, uses it to bring Loki back to life and Loki promptly gets hold of the gauntlet somehow.
I'm not typing out 14 million of these, but Strange knew that just getting the gauntlet/killing Thanos was not the One Neat Trick That Saves the Universe in the long game.
posted by mikepop at 12:25 PM on May 2, 2018 [22 favorites]
When Stark asks Strange about the 14 million futures, he doesn't ask "How many times do we kill Thanos" or "How many times do we get the gauntlet", he asks "How many did we win?". Winning for Doctor Strange is probably not (necessarily or just) killing Thanos or getting the gauntlet. More likely his win condition is regaining the time stone for himself and destroying and scattering the other stones, so no one else destroys half the population of the universe two movies later or otherwise wields that much power.
If Peter Quill gets the gauntlet and tries to bring Gamora back, I doubt he does so without collateral damage to the universe. Maybe he thinks about the Stay-Puft Marshmallow Man accidentally.
Or, Thor puts on the gauntlet, uses it to bring Loki back to life and Loki promptly gets hold of the gauntlet somehow.
I'm not typing out 14 million of these, but Strange knew that just getting the gauntlet/killing Thanos was not the One Neat Trick That Saves the Universe in the long game.
posted by mikepop at 12:25 PM on May 2, 2018 [22 favorites]
And I think making the choice to have Tony live is actually the smart move in terms of his character & arc - ever since the first Avengers he's really been trying to protect people and taking failures to heartI'm not really convinced Tony has much of an arc besides "always being arrogantly wrong about everything." He's become impossibly tedious, and it started early. Honestly, he's only palatable to me in the first Iron Man and the first Avengers. Everywhere else, he's been a dick.
posted by uberchet at 12:31 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
I don't think the movie passes the Bechdel or if it does, it's by a small margin.
That's ok. Not great, not terrible, just ok.
the whole thing with the Bechdel test is that the status quo of films treating women as window dressing to men's stories is the status quo and that that is insane garbage, so yeah, not passing is in fact terrible
posted by beerperson at 12:35 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
That's ok. Not great, not terrible, just ok.
the whole thing with the Bechdel test is that the status quo of films treating women as window dressing to men's stories is the status quo and that that is insane garbage, so yeah, not passing is in fact terrible
posted by beerperson at 12:35 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
If Thor had hit Thanos in the head with Stormbringer, how do you posit Thanos would have survived?
Healing factor, no joke. He had most of the stones at that point, easy to say he's go enough power to separate his conscience from his physical form or some other hand wavy thing.
Similar could have happened if they managed to cut Thanos' arm off. Maybe the Gauntlet would have immediately reattached it? We'll never know they didn't at least try.
the whole thing with the Bechdel test is that the status quo of films treating women as window dressing to men's stories is the status quo and that that is insane garbage, so yeah, not passing is in fact terrible
I agree that clearly passing the Bechdel test would be great and preferred. I do not agree that the various female characters in this film were treated as window dressing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:39 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Healing factor, no joke. He had most of the stones at that point, easy to say he's go enough power to separate his conscience from his physical form or some other hand wavy thing.
Similar could have happened if they managed to cut Thanos' arm off. Maybe the Gauntlet would have immediately reattached it? We'll never know they didn't at least try.
the whole thing with the Bechdel test is that the status quo of films treating women as window dressing to men's stories is the status quo and that that is insane garbage, so yeah, not passing is in fact terrible
I agree that clearly passing the Bechdel test would be great and preferred. I do not agree that the various female characters in this film were treated as window dressing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:39 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
> "But they start out in what looks like Cockburn street to me, then have a fight around the Royal Mile and St Giles Cathedral before crashing into Waverley Station. It's all tremendously plausible. Though I think the deep fried kebab shop is actually a little jewellery shop."
Exactly right on all counts. It was fun to walk around the area when they had it all set up. In addition to the fake kebab shop (complete with sign in window), they had a whole fake cafe set up in Waverley, I guess just to provide brief background shot material.
posted by kyrademon at 12:43 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Exactly right on all counts. It was fun to walk around the area when they had it all set up. In addition to the fake kebab shop (complete with sign in window), they had a whole fake cafe set up in Waverley, I guess just to provide brief background shot material.
posted by kyrademon at 12:43 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Or, Thor puts on the gauntlet, uses it to bring Loki back to life and Loki promptly gets hold of the gauntlet somehow.
I think that Loki might actually turn down the Gauntlet. He assumed the role of Odin, the All-Father, supreme ruler of Asgard and one of the two MCU characters to have days of the week named after them, and what does he do? Commissions a play that makes him look good. Loki is about being clever, and what's clever about a thing that just sort of makes things happen?
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:48 PM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
I think that Loki might actually turn down the Gauntlet. He assumed the role of Odin, the All-Father, supreme ruler of Asgard and one of the two MCU characters to have days of the week named after them, and what does he do? Commissions a play that makes him look good. Loki is about being clever, and what's clever about a thing that just sort of makes things happen?
posted by Halloween Jack at 12:48 PM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
It seems to me that the Bechdel Test is like BMI: in aggregate, it tells you something. When applied to a specific individual (movie), it is not entirely reliable.
This was a movie about Thanos; if he'd been replaced by a female Mad Titan, who had the same relationship to Gamora and Nebula that the male one did, it might suddenly pass several of these tests and... I don't know what that means, honestly.
posted by Foosnark at 12:58 PM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
This was a movie about Thanos; if he'd been replaced by a female Mad Titan, who had the same relationship to Gamora and Nebula that the male one did, it might suddenly pass several of these tests and... I don't know what that means, honestly.
posted by Foosnark at 12:58 PM on May 2, 2018 [6 favorites]
I'm forever entertained that Bucky is Steve Rogers's damsel in distress or Lost Lenore in EVERY movie they're in together. I hope that Bucky is resurrected to stay in Wakanda as the White Wolf; then we can have Captain America / Black Panther crossover movies in which Steve drops in for a visit and Bucky is immediately kidnapped by dragons.
The other big distressed damsels of the movie were Vision, Gamora, and briefly Thor; it's interesting that the attempted resolution for ALL of these was to Shoot The Hostage.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:59 PM on May 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
The other big distressed damsels of the movie were Vision, Gamora, and briefly Thor; it's interesting that the attempted resolution for ALL of these was to Shoot The Hostage.
posted by nicebookrack at 12:59 PM on May 2, 2018 [8 favorites]
This was a movie about Thanos; if he'd been replaced by a female Mad Titan, who had the same relationship to Gamora and Nebula that the male one did, it might suddenly pass several of these tests and... I don't know what that means, honestly.
What a Rule 63 Thanos might look like. Also, the comic canon version, sort of.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:04 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
What a Rule 63 Thanos might look like. Also, the comic canon version, sort of.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:04 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
More likely his win condition is regaining the time stone for himself and destroying and scattering the other stones, so no one else destroys half the population of the universe two movies later or otherwise wields that much power.
This is sound, and it clearly explains Strange's actions while attempting to subdue Thanos and his giving up the Time stone.
It also is in keeping with Strange's calculating nature and determination that leads to his evolution to Sorceror Supreme in his own movie, where he risked sacrificing himself to eternity with Dormammu but knew that regardless of the Dormammu's choice, Earth would be safe.
posted by linux at 2:09 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
This is sound, and it clearly explains Strange's actions while attempting to subdue Thanos and his giving up the Time stone.
It also is in keeping with Strange's calculating nature and determination that leads to his evolution to Sorceror Supreme in his own movie, where he risked sacrificing himself to eternity with Dormammu but knew that regardless of the Dormammu's choice, Earth would be safe.
posted by linux at 2:09 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Wasn’t Dr Strange one of the snaptured? If the time stone is a key part of defeating Thanos, Wong or scrotum chin himself will have to wield it.
posted by Emmy Noether at 2:30 PM on May 2, 2018
posted by Emmy Noether at 2:30 PM on May 2, 2018
Tony could probably build something to wield
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:34 PM on May 2, 2018
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:34 PM on May 2, 2018
If Tony can't, Rocket can.
posted by nicebookrack at 2:47 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 2:47 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
If Thor had hit Thanos in the head with Stormbringer, how do you posit Thanos would have survived?
The most obvious answer is Thanos chose to take the blow from Thor because it's wasn't a fatal blow. If Thor had gone for Thanos's head or his arm, Thanos would have dodged or used infinity stone magic or caught the axe and crushed it because Thor doesn't get to have nice things.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 2:52 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
The most obvious answer is Thanos chose to take the blow from Thor because it's wasn't a fatal blow. If Thor had gone for Thanos's head or his arm, Thanos would have dodged or used infinity stone magic or caught the axe and crushed it because Thor doesn't get to have nice things.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 2:52 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Question: is Shuri's fate currently unknown? I think the last we saw of her was when she was attacked, yes?
posted by Salieri at 2:53 PM on May 2, 2018
posted by Salieri at 2:53 PM on May 2, 2018
nicebookrack If Tony can't, Rocket can
And once Rocket fails, Shuri will bail the boys out. Again.
Foosnark :Also: you'll have tea. (Not a question, just a statement of fact with undertones of threat.)
Not to be confused with "You'll have had yer tea"
posted by coriolisdave at 3:01 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
And once Rocket fails, Shuri will bail the boys out. Again.
Foosnark :Also: you'll have tea. (Not a question, just a statement of fact with undertones of threat.)
Not to be confused with "You'll have had yer tea"
posted by coriolisdave at 3:01 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Basically, "You should have gone for the head" doesn't mean "I'd be totally dead if you had gone for the head", it means "Going for the head wouldn't have worked either, but at least if you actually hit me in the head I'd be dead unlike actually hitting me in the chest which is guaranteed to do nothing."
Thanos was always going to get all the stones. That's got to be what Dr. Strange saw. The only path toward "Winning" is what happens after the stones are all got, and involves people who need to survive Thanos collecting (and using) the stones. Dr. Strange's survival isn't important. What does seem important, on the other hand, is the survival of all the original Avengers. Tony would have died if Strange didn't hand over the stone, so he did, and Tony survives to help enact the "Winning" strategy.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 3:03 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thanos was always going to get all the stones. That's got to be what Dr. Strange saw. The only path toward "Winning" is what happens after the stones are all got, and involves people who need to survive Thanos collecting (and using) the stones. Dr. Strange's survival isn't important. What does seem important, on the other hand, is the survival of all the original Avengers. Tony would have died if Strange didn't hand over the stone, so he did, and Tony survives to help enact the "Winning" strategy.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 3:03 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
What a Rule 63 Thanos might look like. Also, the comic canon version, sort of.
Let the record show that Gauntleted Thanos managed to create and then accidentally kill his female counterpart because he forgot to ensure that she could survive the vacuum of space. Whoops!
MCU Thanos has if anything greatly improved Thanos's reputation as a competent villainous mastermind.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:03 PM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
Let the record show that Gauntleted Thanos managed to create and then accidentally kill his female counterpart because he forgot to ensure that she could survive the vacuum of space. Whoops!
MCU Thanos has if anything greatly improved Thanos's reputation as a competent villainous mastermind.
posted by nicebookrack at 3:03 PM on May 2, 2018 [5 favorites]
That reminds me, one thing that impressed me was how competent the villains were in this movie. Like, usually you get villains that are either so arrogant or ignorant of the heroes' potentials that they fail because of mistakes borne from those traits, but in this movie, Thanos and the Black Order all did their best. They failed because of the teamwork of the heroes, and just plain old lack of skill, instead of stupid mistakes. Black Maw might have been the most arrogant one, but he died because he didn't account for a crazy ass attack of blowing a hole in the ship. You could argue that was an ignorance of their potential, but really, who thinks of that unless you've seen Aliens?
posted by numaner at 3:27 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by numaner at 3:27 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
"No, I say that because in 14,000,000+ futures that were checked, presumably some where the "get the glove off Thanos" plan or other plans worked, they still didn't win."
Oh...uh...yeah. For some reason that totally slipped my mind, despite being the most important plot point of the movie. So, yeah, I should probably just take back that whole list now. Let me just pretend I have the Time Stone, rewind, and never wrote it in the first place.
posted by Bugbread at 3:41 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh...uh...yeah. For some reason that totally slipped my mind, despite being the most important plot point of the movie. So, yeah, I should probably just take back that whole list now. Let me just pretend I have the Time Stone, rewind, and never wrote it in the first place.
posted by Bugbread at 3:41 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
And once Rocket fails, Shuri will bail the boys out. Again.
Maybe Shuri successfully separated the stone from Vision, cooked up a decoy that made Thanos think it was real and he won, but he's sitting there in his own little internal mind loop while everyone figures out what to do with the rest of the stones.
posted by Foosnark at 4:40 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
Maybe Shuri successfully separated the stone from Vision, cooked up a decoy that made Thanos think it was real and he won, but he's sitting there in his own little internal mind loop while everyone figures out what to do with the rest of the stones.
posted by Foosnark at 4:40 PM on May 2, 2018 [4 favorites]
So... for all the Marvel nerds out there, any bets on:
1. Captain Marvel having her seventh sense
2. The Quantum Realm and Ant-Man is going to be very important, and why they did not include him in Infinity War
3a. The Ego Stone exists and is the key to defeating Thanos
3b. Going with (2), being found by Scott Lang in the Quantum Realm (ex: maybe he sees it briefly while rescuing Janet, who we see in Ant-Man, and in Avengers 4 goes back for it)
posted by linux at 4:43 PM on May 2, 2018
1. Captain Marvel having her seventh sense
2. The Quantum Realm and Ant-Man is going to be very important, and why they did not include him in Infinity War
3a. The Ego Stone exists and is the key to defeating Thanos
3b. Going with (2), being found by Scott Lang in the Quantum Realm (ex: maybe he sees it briefly while rescuing Janet, who we see in Ant-Man, and in Avengers 4 goes back for it)
posted by linux at 4:43 PM on May 2, 2018
I wonder if there's an website about whether movies pass the Bechdel test.
Spoiler: sorry, but it's all about the mens.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:12 AM on May 2 [+] [!]
this website says that this movie passes, which i think is the opposite of what you were arguing.
anyway, that "crystal gems test" link is a link worthy of metafilter for sure. this movie was never going to pass Mako Mori tests, for example, because the plot is about Thanos. It can pass Bechtel because of plot, but not Mako Mori.
But models are always wrong, they just fail in interesting ways. having that 7 part test, or what have you, makes the conversation about the issues more interesting.
posted by eustatic at 4:57 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Spoiler: sorry, but it's all about the mens.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:12 AM on May 2 [+] [!]
this website says that this movie passes, which i think is the opposite of what you were arguing.
anyway, that "crystal gems test" link is a link worthy of metafilter for sure. this movie was never going to pass Mako Mori tests, for example, because the plot is about Thanos. It can pass Bechtel because of plot, but not Mako Mori.
But models are always wrong, they just fail in interesting ways. having that 7 part test, or what have you, makes the conversation about the issues more interesting.
posted by eustatic at 4:57 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
The next movie will of course be Avengers: Infinity War Plus One.
posted by HeroZero at 5:55 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by HeroZero at 5:55 PM on May 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
Huh, I don't get this complaint at all. Thanos, the star of the film, set out to do X. The movie was about his attempts to do X and why. The movie ended with him completing what he said he was gonna do.
Thanos was the protagonist.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:57 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Thanos was the protagonist.
posted by Sebmojo at 5:57 PM on May 2, 2018 [7 favorites]
Marvel has had a streak of great villains this past year.
posted by nicebookrack at 6:40 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by nicebookrack at 6:40 PM on May 2, 2018 [2 favorites]
Assuming the countability of marvel movies, the next should be named Avengers: Infinity War.
I would also accept Avengers Aleph One: Shit Gets Real
posted by Emmy Noether at 7:15 PM on May 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
I would also accept Avengers Aleph One: Shit Gets Real
posted by Emmy Noether at 7:15 PM on May 2, 2018 [9 favorites]
Thanos was the protagonist.
I was really surprised that they put him front and center for this film after teasing him for so many other movies. I assumed going in that we'd only get to see him in the third act but they really did make him the main character.
posted by octothorpe at 7:20 PM on May 2, 2018
I was really surprised that they put him front and center for this film after teasing him for so many other movies. I assumed going in that we'd only get to see him in the third act but they really did make him the main character.
posted by octothorpe at 7:20 PM on May 2, 2018
making Thanos the protagonist was honestly one of the genius moves this story took that i applauded. in relation to that, of course it's the Captain America writers+directors gang that gave Gamora the character arc she deserves. I seriously got more Gamora as a character in her own right than just the angsty love interest than in two of her own movies
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 PM on May 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 9:02 PM on May 2, 2018 [10 favorites]
It seems to me that the Bechdel Test is like BMI: in aggregate, it tells you something. When applied to a specific individual (movie), it is not entirely reliable.So I generally agree with this idea, but for this specific movie, consider how it would have been if it were Tina Stark and Patricia Parker working out their parent/mentor issues. Even in the context of fighting a male Thanos, I don't think we'd have to ask if it passed the Bechdel test.
posted by eruonna at 9:58 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Question: is Shuri's fate currently unknown? I think the last we saw of her was when she was attacked, yes?
Correct - we don't know one way or the other. I assume she's alive and deeply hope we get to see her take up the Black Panther mantle in the sequel. Especially for how she'll be able to tease T'Challa about it once he's back.
posted by Emily's Fist at 10:33 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Correct - we don't know one way or the other. I assume she's alive and deeply hope we get to see her take up the Black Panther mantle in the sequel. Especially for how she'll be able to tease T'Challa about it once he's back.
posted by Emily's Fist at 10:33 PM on May 2, 2018 [3 favorites]
Maybe Shuri successfully separated the stone from Vision, cooked up a decoy that made Thanos think it was real and he won, but he's sitting there in his own little internal mind loop while everyone figures out what to do with the rest of the stones.
I could totally go for Shuri "For the man who has everything"-ing Thanos with a Black Mercy-reprogrammed Mind Stone...
I expect they won't go that route, but it would work for me.
posted by mikelieman at 1:34 AM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
I could totally go for Shuri "For the man who has everything"-ing Thanos with a Black Mercy-reprogrammed Mind Stone...
I expect they won't go that route, but it would work for me.
posted by mikelieman at 1:34 AM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
Thanos was the protagonist.
Yes, very much this.
This was the problem (Well, a problem) with theStar Wars I - III
The protagonist in the plot was Palpatine, but the film doesn't treat him that way. They bounce around trying to squeeze Obi Wan or Anakin or Qui Gon or Padme into the protagonist role, but it doesn't work because they are reactive characters. Palpatine (like Thanos) is at the centre of the story, makes the key decisions, and experiences the consequences of those decisions.
The protagonist doesn't have to be the hero. The antagonist doesn't need to be the villain.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:38 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Yes, very much this.
This was the problem (Well, a problem) with theStar Wars I - III
The protagonist in the plot was Palpatine, but the film doesn't treat him that way. They bounce around trying to squeeze Obi Wan or Anakin or Qui Gon or Padme into the protagonist role, but it doesn't work because they are reactive characters. Palpatine (like Thanos) is at the centre of the story, makes the key decisions, and experiences the consequences of those decisions.
The protagonist doesn't have to be the hero. The antagonist doesn't need to be the villain.
posted by Just this guy, y'know at 3:38 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Avengers: Infinity War Plus One.
I suggested Avengers: Uncountable Infinity War, but my friend, who retained much more of her math education than I did, came up with this whole spiel:
I suggested Avengers: Uncountable Infinity War, but my friend, who retained much more of her math education than I did, came up with this whole spiel:
Infinity War ℵ₁: this time it's uncountable. Continuum War! Thanos may have the set of whole infinity stones but the Avengers are going irrational and keeping it real!posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:06 AM on May 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
Well, I’m excited about the Leftovers and Avengers crossover that precisely nobody ever asked for. There’s a lot of possibility. Enigmatic silences. Chain smoking. Karaoke!
Aaaand too late to the joke.
posted by arha at 4:39 AM on May 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
Aaaand too late to the joke.
posted by arha at 4:39 AM on May 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
this website says that this movie passes, which i think is the opposite of what you were arguing.
Read the comments, which make a lot of cases for why it doesn't.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:17 AM on May 3, 2018
Read the comments, which make a lot of cases for why it doesn't.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:17 AM on May 3, 2018
IIRC Kevin Feige has said that the unrevealed title for Untitled Avengers Sequel is a massive spoiler for Infinity War.
Avengers: The Search for Spock?
posted by Naberius at 7:44 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Avengers: The Search for Spock?
posted by Naberius at 7:44 AM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Avengers: it's clobbering time
posted by asra at 8:34 AM on May 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by asra at 8:34 AM on May 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
> "the unrevealed title for Untitled Avengers Sequel is a massive spoiler for Infinity War."
Avengers: Holy Shit Thanos Just Killed Half The People In The Universe And Now The Original Team Plus A Couple Of Others Have To Figure Out How To Reverse It Using A Plan Doctor Strange Set Up Before He Died By Looking Into The Future And Also The Hulk Finally Stops Refusing To Become The Hulk And Um What Else Let's See Captain Marvel Responds To Nick Fury's Posthumous Pager Message 4.
posted by kyrademon at 9:35 AM on May 3, 2018 [20 favorites]
Avengers: Holy Shit Thanos Just Killed Half The People In The Universe And Now The Original Team Plus A Couple Of Others Have To Figure Out How To Reverse It Using A Plan Doctor Strange Set Up Before He Died By Looking Into The Future And Also The Hulk Finally Stops Refusing To Become The Hulk And Um What Else Let's See Captain Marvel Responds To Nick Fury's Posthumous Pager Message 4.
posted by kyrademon at 9:35 AM on May 3, 2018 [20 favorites]
Avengers: The Search for Spock?
Avengers: Tony Stark and the Kobayashi Maru
posted by nubs at 9:47 AM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
Avengers: Tony Stark and the Kobayashi Maru
posted by nubs at 9:47 AM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
Holy crap, it looks like Captain Marvel is going to have been fighting Skrulls back in the 90s.
Which means it is very possible one of the MCU characters will be revealed in Avengers 4 to have been a Skrull the entire time we've known them. (Hmm, Jim Rhodes's appearance changed pretty drastically between Iron Man 1 and 2. Just sayin'.)
posted by straight at 9:50 AM on May 3, 2018 [11 favorites]
Which means it is very possible one of the MCU characters will be revealed in Avengers 4 to have been a Skrull the entire time we've known them. (Hmm, Jim Rhodes's appearance changed pretty drastically between Iron Man 1 and 2. Just sayin'.)
posted by straight at 9:50 AM on May 3, 2018 [11 favorites]
Bruce Banner changed his appearance hugely between his solo film and Avengers 1 and now Hulk is scared of him, quod erat demonstrandum
posted by beerperson at 10:31 AM on May 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by beerperson at 10:31 AM on May 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
this movie was never going to pass Mako Mori tests, for example, because the plot is about Thanos. It can pass Bechtel because of plot, but not Mako Mori.
Honestly, at this point I'm happy it passed the Sexy Lamp test.
Note: Vision did not pass the Sexy Lamp test.
posted by happyroach at 10:42 AM on May 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
Honestly, at this point I'm happy it passed the Sexy Lamp test.
Note: Vision did not pass the Sexy Lamp test.
posted by happyroach at 10:42 AM on May 3, 2018 [6 favorites]
straight, I'm liking the way you're thinking.
posted by biffa at 11:06 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by biffa at 11:06 AM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
And then, the person with me turned, and with an ironic, spritely air, chirped, “So! Who’s ready for the wacky adventures of Ant-Man and the Wasp?”
posted by Etrigan at 12:05 PM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 12:05 PM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
I'm sure people who are smarter and better writers than me have written whole essays on this idea but it just occurred to me: if Super Heroes are indeed modern mythology of gods, then it is only inevitable that they have stories where they have some kind of mastery over death.
That's kind of like a big thing for gods to be able to do so it's only natural that it would figure into the plots of super heroes if that's the role they're filling. In that light to me, it's not really a trope so much as the inevitable end game.
posted by Tevin at 12:17 PM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
That's kind of like a big thing for gods to be able to do so it's only natural that it would figure into the plots of super heroes if that's the role they're filling. In that light to me, it's not really a trope so much as the inevitable end game.
posted by Tevin at 12:17 PM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
There is a good reason Thor, a literal god from mythology, fits so seamlessly into a lineup of Super Heroes.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:21 PM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 12:21 PM on May 3, 2018 [4 favorites]
the unrevealed title for Untitled Avengers Sequel is a massive spoiler for Infinity War.
I think I've got it!
Avengers: Some Assembly Necessary
(or maybe re-assembled is better. Dis-assembled? Let's workshop it a bit).
posted by nubs at 1:15 PM on May 3, 2018
I think I've got it!
Avengers: Some Assembly Necessary
(or maybe re-assembled is better. Dis-assembled? Let's workshop it a bit).
posted by nubs at 1:15 PM on May 3, 2018
For maximum internet feels,what if Bucky was a Skrull and the real Bucky is still a prisoner of Hydra? Or what if another Bucky shows up: he's in his 90s, has two arms, and was never the Winter Soldier (and maybe he's the Skrull)?
posted by straight at 1:20 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by straight at 1:20 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
"Die, blanket of death!"
made me actually lol except I think I was the only one in the theater who heard it.
posted by gaspode at 1:27 PM on May 3, 2018 [15 favorites]
made me actually lol except I think I was the only one in the theater who heard it.
posted by gaspode at 1:27 PM on May 3, 2018 [15 favorites]
Yeah, I loved that line and barely heard it, too.
posted by Emmy Noether at 2:53 PM on May 3, 2018
posted by Emmy Noether at 2:53 PM on May 3, 2018
>> the unrevealed title for Untitled Avengers Sequel is a massive spoiler for Infinity War.
> I think I've got it!
> Avengers: Some Assembly Necessary
> (or maybe re-assembled is better. Dis-assembled? Let's workshop it a bit).
Avengers: Reassemble, surely?
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:58 PM on May 3, 2018
> I think I've got it!
> Avengers: Some Assembly Necessary
> (or maybe re-assembled is better. Dis-assembled? Let's workshop it a bit).
Avengers: Reassemble, surely?
posted by RedOrGreen at 2:58 PM on May 3, 2018
Avengers: Nooooooo Disassemble!
Johnny 5 is now part of the MCU
posted by Fleebnork at 2:59 PM on May 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
Johnny 5 is now part of the MCU
posted by Fleebnork at 2:59 PM on May 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
Get ready for a shitload of product placement in the sequel, "Avengers: Infiniti War"
posted by Bugbread at 3:04 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Bugbread at 3:04 PM on May 3, 2018 [2 favorites]
what if Bucky was a Skrull and the real Bucky is still a prisoner of Hydra?
You shut your mouth!
*cries*
posted by Salieri at 3:36 PM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
You shut your mouth!
*cries*
posted by Salieri at 3:36 PM on May 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
A friend of mine just shared an idea that I haven't seen anywhere else - that Hulk is refusing to come out because he thinks everyone on Earth hates him, not because of his loss to Thanos in a fight. It does come up a lot in Ragnorak! I was assuming the latter along with a lot of people, but that idea makes a lot of sense.
posted by flaterik at 5:15 PM on May 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by flaterik at 5:15 PM on May 3, 2018 [8 favorites]
what if Bucky was a Skrull and the real Bucky is still a prisoner of Hydra
what if Skrull Bucky didn't know he was a Skrull and/or he fell in love with Steve Rogers for real, so Skrull Bucky goes on quest to save the real Bucky from Hydra to make Steve happy
Supreme Internet feels!!!
posted by nicebookrack at 5:56 PM on May 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
what if Skrull Bucky didn't know he was a Skrull and/or he fell in love with Steve Rogers for real, so Skrull Bucky goes on quest to save the real Bucky from Hydra to make Steve happy
Supreme Internet feels!!!
posted by nicebookrack at 5:56 PM on May 3, 2018 [7 favorites]
> Thanos has a great plan
Jenny Nicholson is awesome!
posted by Pronoiac at 8:43 PM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
Jenny Nicholson is awesome!
posted by Pronoiac at 8:43 PM on May 3, 2018 [3 favorites]
God, that video is great.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:33 PM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:33 PM on May 3, 2018 [1 favorite]
eustatic: "Thanos has a great plan"
The sad thing is that his plan, as dumb as it is, is still a better thought out motivation than most that of most MCU villains.
posted by octothorpe at 4:55 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
The sad thing is that his plan, as dumb as it is, is still a better thought out motivation than most that of most MCU villains.
posted by octothorpe at 4:55 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
I want to see the remaining Avengers rewrite time and reality to be better prepared for Thanos and not just unintentionally bring the X-Men and Fantastic Four into being in the MCU, but aaallllll the heroes. Like Thanos shows up for round 2 and it's basically a George Pérez poster with everyone from the Eternals to the Power Pack coming out to wail on him.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:35 AM on May 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 6:35 AM on May 4, 2018 [3 favorites]
Oh, I was also tickled that Thor can speak Groot.
posted by gaspode at 6:49 AM on May 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by gaspode at 6:49 AM on May 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
It was an elective!
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:52 AM on May 4, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:52 AM on May 4, 2018 [17 favorites]
> the Power Pack
oh lord
I've been here in the comment window typing and erasing and typing and erasing and I just don't know what to say about this.
and then I went to Wikipedia and found out that their original run lasted 62 issues! and I don't know what to think about anything anymore. I thought you had pulled out a reference to the laughingstock of 80s comics and instead I found out there was a revival miniseries in the 2000s. Next thing I know you're going to be telling me there's been a series ordered by Starz or something.
posted by komara at 7:01 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
oh lord
I've been here in the comment window typing and erasing and typing and erasing and I just don't know what to say about this.
and then I went to Wikipedia and found out that their original run lasted 62 issues! and I don't know what to think about anything anymore. I thought you had pulled out a reference to the laughingstock of 80s comics and instead I found out there was a revival miniseries in the 2000s. Next thing I know you're going to be telling me there's been a series ordered by Starz or something.
posted by komara at 7:01 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
It was an elective!
Asgard has a college?
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:15 AM on May 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Asgard has a college?
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:15 AM on May 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
If they do the "back to the beginning" time travel trope. Going back to say avengers 1. They could borrow from OTHER big crossover comics and get a rogues gallery to help them. Then we get reformed Loki, Good Ultron, Good Rhonan, Good Ego, Good Zemo (?) etc and they all fight, die and redeem themselves etc.
A few marvel runs have done such things, sometimes even with Thanos. That would be fun. It don't know if that would make this movie "work" for me, but that's been my main issue with this movie is it's half a movie.
posted by French Fry at 7:15 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
A few marvel runs have done such things, sometimes even with Thanos. That would be fun. It don't know if that would make this movie "work" for me, but that's been my main issue with this movie is it's half a movie.
posted by French Fry at 7:15 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Avengers: Some Assembly Necessary
Avengers: GODDAMMIT WHERE DID THAT FUCKING ALLEN WRENCH GO AGAIN
[Power Pack] revival miniseries in the 2000s.
did alex power have an emo haircut and listen to arcade fire on his clickwheel ipod?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:44 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Avengers: GODDAMMIT WHERE DID THAT FUCKING ALLEN WRENCH GO AGAIN
[Power Pack] revival miniseries in the 2000s.
did alex power have an emo haircut and listen to arcade fire on his clickwheel ipod?
posted by entropicamericana at 7:44 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
As I was leaving the theater last night, my thoughts were generally along the lines of wow... I really hated this.
Today, I've decided I don't hate it, but I hate how it all feels so ...cheap. Why'd they "kill" off all the new guys, and also much of the diversity that they'd worked to hard to bring in with the later phases? Where the heck is Valkyrie? (The beau afterward tried to tell me she was dead on the ship, and I was all like OH DEFINITELY NOT.) Why'd we push back Captain Marvel so she can't be here in time for this installment?
I'm realizing that I guess, I'm tired of all these fightfests, where character development and pacing are pushed aside in favor of the next high-stakes fight. It felt dark, like a DC movie in some, okay, most parts, and I hate how gloomy those films are.
Also, I want to like Wanda and Vision's relationship, but I barely know them. Why should I care?
I think I'd be less annoyed if Part 2 was already out, and I could watch them together. But it's not, so I'm watching this one as it is, and it's just kind of ...flat.
That said, I'm interested in Ant-Man and the Wasp, and oh heck yes, Captain Marvel, because they appear to be falling back on the Marvel formula that I like: enough time to let the characters breathe, a bit of action and suspense, but it all works out OK, or mostly OK. I don't know anymore.
posted by PearlRose at 7:56 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Today, I've decided I don't hate it, but I hate how it all feels so ...cheap. Why'd they "kill" off all the new guys, and also much of the diversity that they'd worked to hard to bring in with the later phases? Where the heck is Valkyrie? (The beau afterward tried to tell me she was dead on the ship, and I was all like OH DEFINITELY NOT.) Why'd we push back Captain Marvel so she can't be here in time for this installment?
I'm realizing that I guess, I'm tired of all these fightfests, where character development and pacing are pushed aside in favor of the next high-stakes fight. It felt dark, like a DC movie in some, okay, most parts, and I hate how gloomy those films are.
Also, I want to like Wanda and Vision's relationship, but I barely know them. Why should I care?
I think I'd be less annoyed if Part 2 was already out, and I could watch them together. But it's not, so I'm watching this one as it is, and it's just kind of ...flat.
That said, I'm interested in Ant-Man and the Wasp, and oh heck yes, Captain Marvel, because they appear to be falling back on the Marvel formula that I like: enough time to let the characters breathe, a bit of action and suspense, but it all works out OK, or mostly OK. I don't know anymore.
posted by PearlRose at 7:56 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Thanos has a great plan yt
I can understand why some people don't like her presentation, but I just got lost on her channel for an hour.
posted by mikelieman at 8:01 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I can understand why some people don't like her presentation, but I just got lost on her channel for an hour.
posted by mikelieman at 8:01 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Also, I want to like Wanda and Vision's relationship, but I barely know them. Why should I care?
“WE WILL DEEP FRY YOUR KEBAB"
posted by mikelieman at 8:05 AM on May 4, 2018 [20 favorites]
“WE WILL DEEP FRY YOUR KEBAB"
posted by mikelieman at 8:05 AM on May 4, 2018 [20 favorites]
The sad thing is that his plan, as dumb as it is, is still a better thought out motivation than most that of most MCU villains.
posted by octothorpe at 4:55 AM on May 4 [+] [!]
I'm wondering how they will salvage Ronin when they do the Kree stories for Captain Marvel or the Nova movie. The comics character is Kirby-strange and unrelatable to start with -- Ronin was always just a 'uncaring, foreign imperial cop' and just played as a foil to a hero, so there wasn't much good source material to work with, without getting into ridiculous exposition, honestly. They could have easily deepened the character by giving him a larger Kree entourage, to show, quickly, that this villain is part of an empire, but they didn't, neither do the comics, most of the time.
They could continue to pull on those post-colonial threads that Ragnarok and Black Panther started to weave to add some depth. What's Judge Dredd x Javert x Orwell's "Shooting an Elephant"?
Thanos' motivation is plainly a cover for murderous evil, but the motivation is worth dramatizing, because in real life USA 2018, malthusianism is still embedded into our cultural consciousness by the racist ecological work of Garrett Hardin.
In undergrad Ecology courses, you are introduced to these ideas, and taught how to refute them--Hardin is like the racist uncle of U.S. Ecology--but this simplistic thinking is the doorway to a bunch of other bad ideas. Hardin pushed scientific racism regarding intelligence, as well. His arguments against the "Commons" are a deeply embedded poison in natural resource management and US policy today--other countries can experiment with co-management, the US is stuck in his backwards thinking that people can't manage natural resources without a single controlling authority that manages based on the McNamara fallacy.
So I really enjoyed Thanos as a villain, because he's basically Garret Hardin-- a superficially compelling interlocutor, whose ideas undergird so many US policies, but whose ideas depend on severely undemocratic foundations, upon examination.
After watching the movie a second time, I really like how this question of "Was Thanos' paternalistic love for Gamora really love?" is dramatized, and i think that is going to be the heart of the plot for the second movie. I hope they follow / flesh out the thread of Thanos-as-self-sabotaging that was in the comics, and combine it with the Gamora drama to give it emotional weight, that could be really good.
posted by eustatic at 8:12 AM on May 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by octothorpe at 4:55 AM on May 4 [+] [!]
I'm wondering how they will salvage Ronin when they do the Kree stories for Captain Marvel or the Nova movie. The comics character is Kirby-strange and unrelatable to start with -- Ronin was always just a 'uncaring, foreign imperial cop' and just played as a foil to a hero, so there wasn't much good source material to work with, without getting into ridiculous exposition, honestly. They could have easily deepened the character by giving him a larger Kree entourage, to show, quickly, that this villain is part of an empire, but they didn't, neither do the comics, most of the time.
They could continue to pull on those post-colonial threads that Ragnarok and Black Panther started to weave to add some depth. What's Judge Dredd x Javert x Orwell's "Shooting an Elephant"?
Thanos' motivation is plainly a cover for murderous evil, but the motivation is worth dramatizing, because in real life USA 2018, malthusianism is still embedded into our cultural consciousness by the racist ecological work of Garrett Hardin.
In undergrad Ecology courses, you are introduced to these ideas, and taught how to refute them--Hardin is like the racist uncle of U.S. Ecology--but this simplistic thinking is the doorway to a bunch of other bad ideas. Hardin pushed scientific racism regarding intelligence, as well. His arguments against the "Commons" are a deeply embedded poison in natural resource management and US policy today--other countries can experiment with co-management, the US is stuck in his backwards thinking that people can't manage natural resources without a single controlling authority that manages based on the McNamara fallacy.
So I really enjoyed Thanos as a villain, because he's basically Garret Hardin-- a superficially compelling interlocutor, whose ideas undergird so many US policies, but whose ideas depend on severely undemocratic foundations, upon examination.
After watching the movie a second time, I really like how this question of "Was Thanos' paternalistic love for Gamora really love?" is dramatized, and i think that is going to be the heart of the plot for the second movie. I hope they follow / flesh out the thread of Thanos-as-self-sabotaging that was in the comics, and combine it with the Gamora drama to give it emotional weight, that could be really good.
posted by eustatic at 8:12 AM on May 4, 2018 [8 favorites]
If Thor dons the Infinity Gauntlet, he will first:
☐ Undo the Snapture
☐ Bring Loki back to life
☐ Restore his hammer
posted by mikepop at 8:27 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
☐ Undo the Snapture
☐ Bring Loki back to life
☐ Restore his hammer
posted by mikepop at 8:27 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
I wasn't sure how I felt about the film initially as a whole, but I think PearlRose is on to something: LOTS of my frustration with it is directly tied to the fact that it's half a movie. I'd be much more accepting of it if I didn't have to take a 13-month intermission in the middle of the story.
It's still very Marvel, which is to say full of nice grace-note touches (of which the "Thor speaks Groot because it was an elective" may be my absolute favorite) and characters that I care about and can (at least somewhat) relate to, which is something the DC movies haven't offered except for WW. The trouble is that we only get glimpses of some characters that could be SUPER compelling (Wanda and Viz are at the top of that list) because of how incredibly crowded the film lis.
I got up and went to the rest room at one point, and was amazed to realize that (a) I was 90 minutes into the film and (b) **they were still introducing characters**. I mean, COME ON.
posted by uberchet at 8:30 AM on May 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
It's still very Marvel, which is to say full of nice grace-note touches (of which the "Thor speaks Groot because it was an elective" may be my absolute favorite) and characters that I care about and can (at least somewhat) relate to, which is something the DC movies haven't offered except for WW. The trouble is that we only get glimpses of some characters that could be SUPER compelling (Wanda and Viz are at the top of that list) because of how incredibly crowded the film lis.
I got up and went to the rest room at one point, and was amazed to realize that (a) I was 90 minutes into the film and (b) **they were still introducing characters**. I mean, COME ON.
posted by uberchet at 8:30 AM on May 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
Why would he restore Mjolnir, when he's got this awesome axe instead? Or are you thinking one for each hand?
posted by orrnyereg at 9:53 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by orrnyereg at 9:53 AM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
That’s not what “Restore his hammer” means.
posted by Etrigan at 10:00 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 10:00 AM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Why would he restore Mjolnir, when he's got this awesome axe instead? Or are you thinking one for each hand?
Hammer-axe nunchucks
posted by jason_steakums at 10:08 AM on May 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Hammer-axe nunchucks
posted by jason_steakums at 10:08 AM on May 4, 2018 [6 favorites]
Which works, because of course Cap leads, Tony does machines, Hulk is cool but crude, and Thor Odinson is a party dude.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:26 AM on May 4, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 10:26 AM on May 4, 2018 [18 favorites]
Per Sebastian Stan and the Russo Brothers: that Steve and Bucky hug in the movie was not the first time they've seen each other since Bucky got frozen and/or defrosted, which obviously means (booty call) weekends in Wakanda are ON. Also give me that twenty minute long hug you cowards
Anyway I assume they talked about some other things in this Q&A but let's be real that was the most important thing
posted by yasaman at 10:41 AM on May 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
Anyway I assume they talked about some other things in this Q&A but let's be real that was the most important thing
posted by yasaman at 10:41 AM on May 4, 2018 [7 favorites]
Do we actually know if Stormbreaker is still in our universe? If it was attached to Groot who vanished, is it possible it also went to wherever the snaptured are?
Because as attached as I am to Chris Hemsworth's Thor, I'd be delighted to have Beta Ray Bill.
in realty b.
posted by politikitty at 11:08 AM on May 4, 2018
Because as attached as I am to Chris Hemsworth's Thor, I'd be delighted to have Beta Ray Bill.
in realty b.
posted by politikitty at 11:08 AM on May 4, 2018
"Thor speaks Groot because it was an elective"
Surely the joke here is Asgardian Bros telling each other that Man, you gotta take this class because you can fulfill your language elective with one where DUDE, YOU ONLY HAVE TO LEARN THREE WORDS!
posted by straight at 11:52 AM on May 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
Surely the joke here is Asgardian Bros telling each other that Man, you gotta take this class because you can fulfill your language elective with one where DUDE, YOU ONLY HAVE TO LEARN THREE WORDS!
posted by straight at 11:52 AM on May 4, 2018 [15 favorites]
if you missed rewil's link above, it deserves its own FPP. I haven't heard something I like from Celine Deon in years, but that was a damn good song. And the Deadpool dancer was amazing.
posted by numaner at 1:03 PM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by numaner at 1:03 PM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Which works, because of course Cap leads, Tony does machines, Hulk is cool but crude, and Thor Odinson is a party dude.
"Gimme a break" - Bruce
posted by bleep at 5:56 PM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Gimme a break" - Bruce
posted by bleep at 5:56 PM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
“WE WILL DEEP FRY YOUR KEBAB"
At this point I'm more invested in the curmugeonly Scottish Kebab fryers than Vision/Wanda.
posted by TwoStride at 7:24 PM on May 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
At this point I'm more invested in the curmugeonly Scottish Kebab fryers than Vision/Wanda.
posted by TwoStride at 7:24 PM on May 4, 2018 [5 favorites]
Where the heck is Valkyrie? (The beau afterward tried to tell me she was dead on the ship, and I was all like OH DEFINITELY NOT.)
One of the Russo Brothers confirmed that she did indeed survive, along with some other Asgardians.
Why'd we push back Captain Marvel so she can't be here in time for this installment?
I'm betting that something in that movie is important to Avengers 4 (note that I didn't say "defeat Thanos," thought it's probably is that), so we're gonna explore that a bit. Probably there's something similar going on with Ant-Man and Wasp, some aspect of what goes in that movie will tie into Avengers 4.
I do believe the year long wait is purposeful. The Avengers lost, and half the universe died. We're supposed to sit with that for a spell and not have have a quick way to find out what happens next.
The only real question is will they be able to stick the landing. It's hard to imagine they'll really meet the expectations that are in our heads, but if anyone can do it, it's gonna be Marvel. Fingers crossed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:39 PM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
One of the Russo Brothers confirmed that she did indeed survive, along with some other Asgardians.
Why'd we push back Captain Marvel so she can't be here in time for this installment?
I'm betting that something in that movie is important to Avengers 4 (note that I didn't say "defeat Thanos," thought it's probably is that), so we're gonna explore that a bit. Probably there's something similar going on with Ant-Man and Wasp, some aspect of what goes in that movie will tie into Avengers 4.
I do believe the year long wait is purposeful. The Avengers lost, and half the universe died. We're supposed to sit with that for a spell and not have have a quick way to find out what happens next.
The only real question is will they be able to stick the landing. It's hard to imagine they'll really meet the expectations that are in our heads, but if anyone can do it, it's gonna be Marvel. Fingers crossed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:39 PM on May 4, 2018 [2 favorites]
Avengers 4: We Told You Those Two Stories in the Last Year So We Could Tell You This One*
Also if Carol Danvers doesn't kick ass to "We Are The Champions" that will be a missed opportunity.
* - it is now 364 days until the premiere of the movie, yes, I set up a countdown for every MCU movie for the next year
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 8:07 PM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also if Carol Danvers doesn't kick ass to "We Are The Champions" that will be a missed opportunity.
* - it is now 364 days until the premiere of the movie, yes, I set up a countdown for every MCU movie for the next year
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 8:07 PM on May 4, 2018 [1 favorite]
Also if Carol Danvers doesn't kick ass to "We Are The Champions" that will be a missed opportunity.
I want Carol, Ko-Rel and Moondragon doing a slo-mo badass walk to "We Will Rock You."
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:12 PM on May 4, 2018
I want Carol, Ko-Rel and Moondragon doing a slo-mo badass walk to "We Will Rock You."
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:12 PM on May 4, 2018
I just rewatched it tonight. Stormbreaker fell to the ground after Thanos snapped his fingers and stepped into a portal.
posted by Pronoiac at 11:45 PM on May 4, 2018
posted by Pronoiac at 11:45 PM on May 4, 2018
> Is this the only Marvel movie to end without one of those animated credits sequences that shows glimpses of the movie or allusions to the characters
> I was thinking the main misstep at the end was leaving out a montage of people all over the world / galaxy watching half of the people around them disintegrating to get a better feel of the enormity of what Thanos had done
I was thinking it could have been poignant to suggest this by disappearing half the names of the cast and crew with the ash particles effect as they neared the top of the screen (crew at random, cast matching the fates of their characters). But the Fury epilogue was cool too.
posted by Syllepsis at 12:22 AM on May 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
> I was thinking the main misstep at the end was leaving out a montage of people all over the world / galaxy watching half of the people around them disintegrating to get a better feel of the enormity of what Thanos had done
I was thinking it could have been poignant to suggest this by disappearing half the names of the cast and crew with the ash particles effect as they neared the top of the screen (crew at random, cast matching the fates of their characters). But the Fury epilogue was cool too.
posted by Syllepsis at 12:22 AM on May 5, 2018 [4 favorites]
Avengers 4: We Told You Those Two Stories in the Last Year So We Could Tell You This One*
I mean you could also say that about Black Panther, Ragnarok, and Spider-Man: Homecoming, but it would be an absurdly reductive and dismissive take on three of the best superhero movies ever made. There's no reason Ant-Man & The Wasp and Captain Marvel can't be both good movies (or even great ones) and also set things up for Avengers 4.
posted by straight at 1:10 AM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean you could also say that about Black Panther, Ragnarok, and Spider-Man: Homecoming, but it would be an absurdly reductive and dismissive take on three of the best superhero movies ever made. There's no reason Ant-Man & The Wasp and Captain Marvel can't be both good movies (or even great ones) and also set things up for Avengers 4.
posted by straight at 1:10 AM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Third viewing just finished. Audience still in shock lol. Also, unlike other MCU movies in the last 5 years I've seen at the cinema, practically all of the audience stuck around for the stinger (they used to be keen but then not so much so it was usual to see a good half leaving before all the stingers are done)
posted by cendawanita at 1:38 AM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 1:38 AM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
I had to think that people leaving before the stinger were not big enough fans that the movie would been at all satisfying as a stand alone experience.
posted by gaspode at 4:30 AM on May 5, 2018
posted by gaspode at 4:30 AM on May 5, 2018
I was thinking it could have been poignant to suggest this by disappearing half the names of the cast and crew with the ash particles effect as they neared the top of the screen (crew at random, cast matching the fates of their characters).
That's a fantastic idea. I'd even go as far as to have fake names that disppear early on the screen to give maximum effect while not stepping on toes re: how long your name is up on the credits. That way you see the credits with big holes in them as they scroll off the top of the screen.
I certainly agree that skipping scenes showing the enormity of Thanos' act subtracted from the film, but it was already so goddamn long that I can accept their removal. Maybe Avengers 4 will open with a bunch of scenes showing humans and aliens across the universe disappearing to remind the audience what everyone left behind has to fight to undo.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:42 AM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
That's a fantastic idea. I'd even go as far as to have fake names that disppear early on the screen to give maximum effect while not stepping on toes re: how long your name is up on the credits. That way you see the credits with big holes in them as they scroll off the top of the screen.
I certainly agree that skipping scenes showing the enormity of Thanos' act subtracted from the film, but it was already so goddamn long that I can accept their removal. Maybe Avengers 4 will open with a bunch of scenes showing humans and aliens across the universe disappearing to remind the audience what everyone left behind has to fight to undo.
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 7:42 AM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Finally saw it last night. This movie could have easily been titled Thanos Has Feelings.
posted by Kitteh at 8:40 AM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Kitteh at 8:40 AM on May 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
Uh huh, I'm totally sure they're dead, guys. Interview with the screenwriter.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:30 AM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:30 AM on May 5, 2018 [2 favorites]
So, just last night I was telling my household of a meme I had dreamed up where you blindly link people to Kansas's Dust in the Wind and call it Thanosrolling. It's never going to be a thing, because as my housemate rightly pointed out, you can't just force a meme like that.
Having said that, when I cranked my car up this morning for my commute into work, the radio station totally Thanosrolled me.
posted by radwolf76 at 2:13 PM on May 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
Having said that, when I cranked my car up this morning for my commute into work, the radio station totally Thanosrolled me.
posted by radwolf76 at 2:13 PM on May 5, 2018 [6 favorites]
From the interview: "I just want to tell you it’s real, and the sooner you accept that, the sooner you will be able to move on to the next stage of grief."
Except... acceptance is the final stage of grief.
so obviously what comes next is to play god
posted by lesser weasel at 6:04 PM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Except... acceptance is the final stage of grief.
so obviously what comes next is to play god
posted by lesser weasel at 6:04 PM on May 5, 2018 [1 favorite]
Several people have sort of circled around this point, but it really leaped out at me on second viewing.
The morality of Thanos is that we have to sacrifice some people for the greater good.
The heroes relentlessly reject that morality, like 5 or 6 times. Even Loki. Even when Star Lord and Wanda try to act this way, it is clear they are violating their consciences. They don't believe they are doing the right thing. And they fail.
But there is one exception. Doctor Strange also buys into the morality of Thanos. He is convinced that it would be right to sacrifice Tony or Peter to keep the Time Stone away from Thanos.
But then Strange looks at the future and discovers that he was wrong, that the only possible way to prevail is if he also adopts the morality of the heroes and refuses to sacrifice Tony's life to keep the Stone.
And that's the real point. When someone claims they have done the math and that science proves that some people need to be sacrificed for the greater good, they are pretending they can see the future. But they cannot do that. They don't know what they claim to know. Their models are incomplete. They confuse being unaware of their emotions with hard-headed dispassion, un-examined assumptions with objectivity, and rationalization with reason.
Maybe Gamora's planet is better off today than it was when Thanos invaded, but he had no way of knowing that it is better because he invaded. (Nor that the decline of Titan was because they rejected his "solution.")
posted by straight at 8:29 PM on May 5, 2018 [35 favorites]
The morality of Thanos is that we have to sacrifice some people for the greater good.
The heroes relentlessly reject that morality, like 5 or 6 times. Even Loki. Even when Star Lord and Wanda try to act this way, it is clear they are violating their consciences. They don't believe they are doing the right thing. And they fail.
But there is one exception. Doctor Strange also buys into the morality of Thanos. He is convinced that it would be right to sacrifice Tony or Peter to keep the Time Stone away from Thanos.
But then Strange looks at the future and discovers that he was wrong, that the only possible way to prevail is if he also adopts the morality of the heroes and refuses to sacrifice Tony's life to keep the Stone.
And that's the real point. When someone claims they have done the math and that science proves that some people need to be sacrificed for the greater good, they are pretending they can see the future. But they cannot do that. They don't know what they claim to know. Their models are incomplete. They confuse being unaware of their emotions with hard-headed dispassion, un-examined assumptions with objectivity, and rationalization with reason.
Maybe Gamora's planet is better off today than it was when Thanos invaded, but he had no way of knowing that it is better because he invaded. (Nor that the decline of Titan was because they rejected his "solution.")
posted by straight at 8:29 PM on May 5, 2018 [35 favorites]
If anyone is looking to dress up like the Avengers (or Thanos) for Eid or just in general, Indonesia has got you covered.
posted by cendawanita at 12:35 AM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by cendawanita at 12:35 AM on May 6, 2018 [3 favorites]
Not to get all "why don't the Eagles just take them to Mt Doom" about this, but the Ringer pointed out Thanos could've just wished infinite resources for every world rather than turning half the universe to ash....
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:53 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:53 AM on May 6, 2018 [4 favorites]
Pretty sure Thanos is a tad crazy and just found an excuse to exercise his joy of wielding power and killing people. So infinite resources was never, ever gonna happen.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:06 AM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 10:06 AM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
The question really comes down to whether or not you accept the meta aspect of this being a fictional character written by writers, or try to think about it purely in-universe. His plan is actually bad because the writers didn't think it completely through; it was just a way to salvage the even worse motivation of "getting out of the friend zone" from the comic.
But if we pretend it wasn't a problem with the writers but actually some reflection of in-universe factors, you could probably make a variety of head cannons: he's a psychopath who enjoys killing people; the Infinity Gauntlet doesn't have the ability to create new matter, only destroy it; alien birth rates are totally different than human birth rates, so the population would take yonks to rebound; if you created more resources, people would just reproduce faster, accelerating the problem; given that destroying half the population on Gamora's planet apparently did work to make it a paradise, for most of the aliens in the universe, destroying half of a planet sparks a paradise, and the respective planets, seeing how great life can be with a smaller population, cap their reproduction rates; etc.
It really becomes an issue of "what theory can I come up with the matches the facts presented in the movie, doesn't cross my threshold of suspension-of-disbelief, and allows me to enjoy the movie more (if I like it), or allows me to ridicule it more (if I don't like it)."
posted by Bugbread at 4:05 PM on May 6, 2018
But if we pretend it wasn't a problem with the writers but actually some reflection of in-universe factors, you could probably make a variety of head cannons: he's a psychopath who enjoys killing people; the Infinity Gauntlet doesn't have the ability to create new matter, only destroy it; alien birth rates are totally different than human birth rates, so the population would take yonks to rebound; if you created more resources, people would just reproduce faster, accelerating the problem; given that destroying half the population on Gamora's planet apparently did work to make it a paradise, for most of the aliens in the universe, destroying half of a planet sparks a paradise, and the respective planets, seeing how great life can be with a smaller population, cap their reproduction rates; etc.
It really becomes an issue of "what theory can I come up with the matches the facts presented in the movie, doesn't cross my threshold of suspension-of-disbelief, and allows me to enjoy the movie more (if I like it), or allows me to ridicule it more (if I don't like it)."
posted by Bugbread at 4:05 PM on May 6, 2018
I don't think it's that much of a stretch that the big bad guy in a comic book movie is actually a delusional murderous psychopath.
posted by bleep at 4:42 PM on May 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
posted by bleep at 4:42 PM on May 6, 2018 [13 favorites]
Wait, why are we even believing that Gamora's planet became a paradise post-genocide? Don't we only have Thanos' word on that? Why the hell should we believe him? Thanos isn't a reliable narrator. Thanos is a crazy zealot, of course he thinks his plan works. That doesn't mean it actually does. Like, does he even really stick around on any planets he genocides?
posted by yasaman at 4:56 PM on May 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
posted by yasaman at 4:56 PM on May 6, 2018 [8 favorites]
I'm also going with the "he's doing this because he's a murderous bastard" idea, because it's the most believable and the closest to the comics, but the movie didn't give me the sense that "Well, why doesn't he use the Gauntlet to make infinite resources?" is something the writers gave a huge amount of consideration.
"Don't we only have Thanos' word on that? Why the hell should we believe him? Thanos isn't a reliable narrator."
Was there any particular evidence that he's not a reliable narrator, other than being the bad guy? In real life, of course, I totally think that would be the case, but in screenwriting if you want the audience to believe that someone is an unreliable narrator, you drop a hint somewhere. Have him get caught out in a little lie in Act 1, then he makes a big lie in Act 3, that kind of thing. You don't make him scrupulously straightforward throughout the movie and then pop in a lie and expect the audience to say, "Well, yeah, but he's an unreliable narrator."
Unless, of course, the whole point is to make someone think that someone's a reliable narrator so you can pull a twist in Act 3, a la Fight Club or Usual Suspects. In that sense, it could be a hook for part 2, not as a twist for the audience, but for Thanos himself, like having Thanos go back to Gamora's planet and realize that it's actually in horrible shape and it's all his fault or something.
posted by Bugbread at 5:19 PM on May 6, 2018
"Don't we only have Thanos' word on that? Why the hell should we believe him? Thanos isn't a reliable narrator."
Was there any particular evidence that he's not a reliable narrator, other than being the bad guy? In real life, of course, I totally think that would be the case, but in screenwriting if you want the audience to believe that someone is an unreliable narrator, you drop a hint somewhere. Have him get caught out in a little lie in Act 1, then he makes a big lie in Act 3, that kind of thing. You don't make him scrupulously straightforward throughout the movie and then pop in a lie and expect the audience to say, "Well, yeah, but he's an unreliable narrator."
Unless, of course, the whole point is to make someone think that someone's a reliable narrator so you can pull a twist in Act 3, a la Fight Club or Usual Suspects. In that sense, it could be a hook for part 2, not as a twist for the audience, but for Thanos himself, like having Thanos go back to Gamora's planet and realize that it's actually in horrible shape and it's all his fault or something.
posted by Bugbread at 5:19 PM on May 6, 2018
for most of the aliens in the universe, destroying half of a planet sparks a paradise
The Economist: The Black Death was horrible but had benign economic effects
posted by Jacqueline at 6:31 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Economist: The Black Death was horrible but had benign economic effects
posted by Jacqueline at 6:31 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Doom is a noble, selfless ruler who cares only about the welfare of the Latverian people." -- Victor von Doom
posted by straight at 6:41 PM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by straight at 6:41 PM on May 6, 2018 [6 favorites]
Heard a rumor dr doom might be the one to undo it all. Also, soul stone can be a place to hide.
Saw the movie just now, liked it a lot but flabberghasted and full of questions like many no doubt.
Also Thanos is wrong. The universe is not finite- it expands infinitely away in space and time from the big bang. Or so I was counseled.
Also yeah Quill fucked up. And when Thanos used the stones to turn Drax and Mantis into blocks and spaghettii, aw yeah that was worth my ten bucks. Pity Drax has been de-powered from comics Drax
posted by vrakatar at 7:25 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
Saw the movie just now, liked it a lot but flabberghasted and full of questions like many no doubt.
Also Thanos is wrong. The universe is not finite- it expands infinitely away in space and time from the big bang. Or so I was counseled.
Also yeah Quill fucked up. And when Thanos used the stones to turn Drax and Mantis into blocks and spaghettii, aw yeah that was worth my ten bucks. Pity Drax has been de-powered from comics Drax
posted by vrakatar at 7:25 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Economist: The Black Death was horrible but had benign economic effects
They used the Reality Gem to compare wages in our Europe to one of the Earths that didn't have the Black Death.
posted by straight at 8:34 PM on May 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
They used the Reality Gem to compare wages in our Europe to one of the Earths that didn't have the Black Death.
posted by straight at 8:34 PM on May 6, 2018 [7 favorites]
The Economist: The Black Death was horrible but had benign economic effects
In spite of the controversy, the Atlantic stands by it's new commentator, Thanos
posted by happyroach at 9:02 PM on May 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
In spite of the controversy, the Atlantic stands by it's new commentator, Thanos
posted by happyroach at 9:02 PM on May 6, 2018 [20 favorites]
I want in knowing it was going to be Empire Strikes Back-y, and I left it with that feeling. As someone not particularly invested in the MCU, it felt like an okay-ish example of a Marvel movie that had bunch of people get killed to mess with your head but of which 90% will surely get resurrected when they un-snap the Infinity Gauntlet in the next movie. The scene where Thanos gets the soul gem was stupid and obvious, and the fleshing out of why Thanos wants to kill all the people was paper thin. This is sort of ok because it’s essentially nuts and this is a movie with people zipping around and doing banter, but pretending that you’re wrangling with something profound while also winking hard because you know you’re actually wanting to do a quip is always a weird look
I caught literally none of Thanos’s hench-peoples’ names and it doesn’t even matter, and that’s a story in itself.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:20 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I caught literally none of Thanos’s hench-peoples’ names and it doesn’t even matter, and that’s a story in itself.
posted by Going To Maine at 9:20 PM on May 6, 2018 [1 favorite]
I don't read the comics so all the henchpeople were new to me, and I didn't get any of the names except for "Maw", which isn't even his full name. But it's not us, their names are literally not in the final script. In case you haven't looked up it, they are:
- Ebony Maw is the one with telekinetic powers (I said Black Maw in a comment above by mistake, whoops)
- Cull Obsidian is the large guy with the hammer-on-a-chain (Black Dwarf in the comics)
- Proxima Midnight is the female spear warrior
- Corvus Glaive is the male spear warrior
The group is called Black Order, but in the comics they also go by Cull Obsidian.
On one hand I know it's offputting to have these characters introduce themselves or have their full names said out loud for no real reason, but good writers find ways to work their names into a script naturally. I'm not saying these writers are bad for not doing that, but it's weird that they didn't. Also when Thanos said Maw's name to Dr. Strange, Strange took it as if he knew the dead guy's name but I was surprised, though I guess we're supposed to assume that at some point during the torture Maw told Strange his name.
What's funny is that they bothered to change Black Dwarf to Cull Obsidian and stuck with Black Order for the group, but none of that even come up in the movie.
posted by numaner at 10:36 PM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
- Ebony Maw is the one with telekinetic powers (I said Black Maw in a comment above by mistake, whoops)
- Cull Obsidian is the large guy with the hammer-on-a-chain (Black Dwarf in the comics)
- Proxima Midnight is the female spear warrior
- Corvus Glaive is the male spear warrior
The group is called Black Order, but in the comics they also go by Cull Obsidian.
On one hand I know it's offputting to have these characters introduce themselves or have their full names said out loud for no real reason, but good writers find ways to work their names into a script naturally. I'm not saying these writers are bad for not doing that, but it's weird that they didn't. Also when Thanos said Maw's name to Dr. Strange, Strange took it as if he knew the dead guy's name but I was surprised, though I guess we're supposed to assume that at some point during the torture Maw told Strange his name.
What's funny is that they bothered to change Black Dwarf to Cull Obsidian and stuck with Black Order for the group, but none of that even come up in the movie.
posted by numaner at 10:36 PM on May 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
but the movie didn't give me the sense that "Well, why doesn't he use the Gauntlet to make infinite resources?" is something the writers gave a huge amount of consideration.
Why would they, Thanos is clearly crazy in some sense. There's zero evidence that the universe, an infinitely expanding "body," is running out of resources. He's simply haunted by the failure to save his planet and fixated on a simplistic idea that puts him as the hero of his own story.
He wants to kill and has a great excuse to do so, at least in his mind. Providing infinite resources probably never entered his mind.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:00 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Why would they, Thanos is clearly crazy in some sense. There's zero evidence that the universe, an infinitely expanding "body," is running out of resources. He's simply haunted by the failure to save his planet and fixated on a simplistic idea that puts him as the hero of his own story.
He wants to kill and has a great excuse to do so, at least in his mind. Providing infinite resources probably never entered his mind.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:00 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
The Russo brothers do Notes on Scene for the first meeting between Thor and the Guardians.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:27 AM on May 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:27 AM on May 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Saw it last night, so I now have at least some idea of what I'm talking about. Lots of non-specious things, that haven't really formed into words yet, but I do have some snark:
(As with Lee Pace in GotG, interesting to see Carrie Coon here doing very little. But she's a terrific actress, does a fine job as far as it can go, it was probably a lot of fun being painted and costumed and getting to do a bunch of kicking for a couple of days and I'm sure the residuals are fantastic. I do think the series benefits from putting hugely overqualified actors in tiny roles, but I can't really quantify it. Perhaps, as with Pace in Captain Marvel, she'll turn up retrospectively in future movies.)
posted by Grangousier at 4:35 AM on May 7, 2018
- It was nice to see another British city being smashed up for a change. London's suffered enough, and doing that to Manchester might be a bit close to the bone even now.
- This is the first movie I've had a chance to get to in a long time, being busy. So, not having seen Black Panther yet, is T'Challa's teen scientist girl always that annoying - I mean, might she be off-puttingly irritating in doses of more than a couple of minutes? Or is smugness now being counted as a superpower in itself?
- Given that Wanda's reality-warping powers might almost put her at god status were she to fully realise them, it was interesting to see her being saved by someone whose only power is carrying a pistol and being quite good at kicking. Except she doesn't have her gun with her.
- At last, a six-hour two-part Doctor Who season finale. (Probably said this one before. Also, I really like two-part Doctor Who season finales.)
(As with Lee Pace in GotG, interesting to see Carrie Coon here doing very little. But she's a terrific actress, does a fine job as far as it can go, it was probably a lot of fun being painted and costumed and getting to do a bunch of kicking for a couple of days and I'm sure the residuals are fantastic. I do think the series benefits from putting hugely overqualified actors in tiny roles, but I can't really quantify it. Perhaps, as with Pace in Captain Marvel, she'll turn up retrospectively in future movies.)
posted by Grangousier at 4:35 AM on May 7, 2018
Re: Shuri (teenage scientist) -- She's absolutely wonderful in Black Panther and is canonically the smartest person in the MCU. (I think a little smugness is warranted, but she's mostly just having a good time.) Letitia Wright did a fantastic job and I highly recommend you see it first chance you get.
posted by lesser weasel at 4:47 AM on May 7, 2018 [18 favorites]
posted by lesser weasel at 4:47 AM on May 7, 2018 [18 favorites]
"There's zero evidence that the universe, an infinitely expanding "body," is running out of resources."
Going by the script, it doesn't appear that the writers know that the universe is infinitely expanding.
"So, not having seen Black Panther yet, is T'Challa's teen scientist girl always that annoying"
She's that smug in Black Panther, too, but it doesn't come off as annoying because the target of her smugness is her brother, so it feels like sibling rivalry, not obnoxiousness. Hopefully the Bruce Banner snark was just a one-off one-liner and not a hint that her personality is actually STEM-dominance-internet-bro.
posted by Bugbread at 5:04 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Going by the script, it doesn't appear that the writers know that the universe is infinitely expanding.
"So, not having seen Black Panther yet, is T'Challa's teen scientist girl always that annoying"
She's that smug in Black Panther, too, but it doesn't come off as annoying because the target of her smugness is her brother, so it feels like sibling rivalry, not obnoxiousness. Hopefully the Bruce Banner snark was just a one-off one-liner and not a hint that her personality is actually STEM-dominance-internet-bro.
posted by Bugbread at 5:04 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
I made a quick comic for one of the other 14 million outcomes Strange saw.
posted by mikepop at 6:54 AM on May 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by mikepop at 6:54 AM on May 7, 2018 [7 favorites]
This is not really relevant, but I do want to throw out that the universe is not expanding in a way that creates more resources. It is expanding in a "everything is getting farther apart from everything else" sort of way. It's expansion is not terribly relevant to available resources one way or the other, except possibly on an *extremely* long timescale, and even then the availability of faster than light travel probably makes that moot.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 7:17 AM on May 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by vibratory manner of working at 7:17 AM on May 7, 2018 [5 favorites]
Hey hey hey now. We're not gonna start smack talking Shuri in here, I won't have it.
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:22 AM on May 7, 2018 [17 favorites]
posted by Ipsifendus at 7:22 AM on May 7, 2018 [17 favorites]
Third viewing just finished.
Aside from Guardians 2, this has been the only MCU movie I've seen that I didn't go back for a second viewing. I'm still kind of pissed off about it. I'll go see Captain America and Avengers 4, and only after that will I think about watching this one again.
posted by Foosnark at 7:41 AM on May 7, 2018
Aside from Guardians 2, this has been the only MCU movie I've seen that I didn't go back for a second viewing. I'm still kind of pissed off about it. I'll go see Captain America and Avengers 4, and only after that will I think about watching this one again.
posted by Foosnark at 7:41 AM on May 7, 2018
I've heard it elsewhere, and I will never, understand why people complain about Shuri's smugness/failure to be humble/being so mean to Bruce Banner and Vision. Like.
1. I'm pretty sure Bruce and Vision can take it.
2. Really, that's your takeaway from a 2.5 hour movie, especially one where Shuri is subsequently shown as being tough and resourceful and courageous under fire?
3. If smugness is anyone's superpower, it's fucking Tony Stark's. If you laugh at Tony Stark's one-liners, but not Shuri's, ask yourself why.
4. If Peter Parker gets to occasionally brat it up, and then redeem himself by Doing Good and Being A Good Kid, but not Shuri, ask yourself why.
5. Way too frequently, Modern American society asks women in general, and black women in particular, to hide their gifts under a basket, so as not to make white men feel bad. I am absolutely delighted to see Shuri stay on-brand by giving 0.0000000000000000)% fucks, and and regret only that she doesn't get to see Vision initially in his Paul Bettany form, so that she can say A THIRD BROKEN WHITE MAN FOR ME TO FIX??????? BROTHER, CAN'T YOU TAKE UP STAMP COLLECTING OR TUMBLR
There is, as a side note, a really interesting thread about Tony Stark and Shuri being on the opposite sides of a wish-fulfillment spectrum -- Tony Stark is the wish fulfillment, I'd say, of a very specific male fantasy. He's brilliant! He's charming! He's rich! He gets away with things because he is so brilliant and charming and rich, and doesn't even have to wear a stuffy suit/gets to show up in sneakers and a hoodie and gets to drive cool cars! But a fundamental part of his hero myth is that he comes from loneliness, that his parents died when he was a kid, and that he remains vulnerable underneath it.
Shuri, on the other hand, is also brilliant and charming and (presumably) rich. She gets away with saying all kinds of things because she is so brilliant and charming and royal/rich. She is, in fact, a literal goddamn princess. But a key part of her power as wish-fulfillment vehicle is that she is not isolated. Her first scenes in Black Panther are of her sassing her brother with Okoye, and then her sassing her brother again, and her mother lovingly but firmly reprimanding her. Her dad died when she was around the same age as Tony, and she was probably pretty upset, but it wasn't a tectonic shift the way it was for Tony. She is supported and loved and does not need to be a fighter in order to be valued, but she will, when she has to.
tl;dr: Tony is a specific kind of male wish fulfillment and defined by loneliness. Shuri is a specific kind of female wish fulfillment and defined by her rich, vibrant connections to others.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:46 AM on May 7, 2018 [59 favorites]
1. I'm pretty sure Bruce and Vision can take it.
2. Really, that's your takeaway from a 2.5 hour movie, especially one where Shuri is subsequently shown as being tough and resourceful and courageous under fire?
3. If smugness is anyone's superpower, it's fucking Tony Stark's. If you laugh at Tony Stark's one-liners, but not Shuri's, ask yourself why.
4. If Peter Parker gets to occasionally brat it up, and then redeem himself by Doing Good and Being A Good Kid, but not Shuri, ask yourself why.
5. Way too frequently, Modern American society asks women in general, and black women in particular, to hide their gifts under a basket, so as not to make white men feel bad. I am absolutely delighted to see Shuri stay on-brand by giving 0.0000000000000000)% fucks, and and regret only that she doesn't get to see Vision initially in his Paul Bettany form, so that she can say A THIRD BROKEN WHITE MAN FOR ME TO FIX??????? BROTHER, CAN'T YOU TAKE UP STAMP COLLECTING OR TUMBLR
There is, as a side note, a really interesting thread about Tony Stark and Shuri being on the opposite sides of a wish-fulfillment spectrum -- Tony Stark is the wish fulfillment, I'd say, of a very specific male fantasy. He's brilliant! He's charming! He's rich! He gets away with things because he is so brilliant and charming and rich, and doesn't even have to wear a stuffy suit/gets to show up in sneakers and a hoodie and gets to drive cool cars! But a fundamental part of his hero myth is that he comes from loneliness, that his parents died when he was a kid, and that he remains vulnerable underneath it.
Shuri, on the other hand, is also brilliant and charming and (presumably) rich. She gets away with saying all kinds of things because she is so brilliant and charming and royal/rich. She is, in fact, a literal goddamn princess. But a key part of her power as wish-fulfillment vehicle is that she is not isolated. Her first scenes in Black Panther are of her sassing her brother with Okoye, and then her sassing her brother again, and her mother lovingly but firmly reprimanding her. Her dad died when she was around the same age as Tony, and she was probably pretty upset, but it wasn't a tectonic shift the way it was for Tony. She is supported and loved and does not need to be a fighter in order to be valued, but she will, when she has to.
tl;dr: Tony is a specific kind of male wish fulfillment and defined by loneliness. Shuri is a specific kind of female wish fulfillment and defined by her rich, vibrant connections to others.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:46 AM on May 7, 2018 [59 favorites]
For reals. Shuri's comment didn't seem out of line at all, really smart people have been smug as shit through all these movies. Plus she had a really good point.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:03 AM on May 7, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:03 AM on May 7, 2018 [12 favorites]
interesting to see Carrie Coon here doing very little. But she's a terrific actress, does a fine job as far as it can go, it was probably a lot of fun being painted and costumed and getting to do a bunch of kicking for a couple of days
AFAICT, CC was only the voice for Proxima, who was a 100% CGI creation performed by a motion-captured stuntperson, so she didn't even get to be in makeup or a costume. Her casting in the film was only announced last month, along with the other Black Order baddies, so she literally came in at the tail end of the whole production process.
(Also, nothing but love for Shuri, and for her putting the MCU science-bros in their place.)
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:14 AM on May 7, 2018
AFAICT, CC was only the voice for Proxima, who was a 100% CGI creation performed by a motion-captured stuntperson, so she didn't even get to be in makeup or a costume. Her casting in the film was only announced last month, along with the other Black Order baddies, so she literally came in at the tail end of the whole production process.
(Also, nothing but love for Shuri, and for her putting the MCU science-bros in their place.)
posted by Strange Interlude at 8:14 AM on May 7, 2018
The stuntperson did the mocap for the fighting, but Carrie Coon did the face capture. (Mocap used to be her day job. Technically, her first Marvel credit was for the video game adaptation of X-Men Origins: Wolverine.)
posted by Iridic at 8:51 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Iridic at 8:51 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
Suri needs to snark at Tony Stark. Say, treating his nanotech Iron Man armor like a project a not-particularly talented kid might do for a science fair.
And when I say need, I mean need. This is a physical necessity, like oxygen or water. It must happen.
posted by happyroach at 9:13 AM on May 7, 2018 [12 favorites]
And when I say need, I mean need. This is a physical necessity, like oxygen or water. It must happen.
posted by happyroach at 9:13 AM on May 7, 2018 [12 favorites]
Oh no:
Joe Green @TheMoonBearMan 17hposted by Iridic at 9:38 AM on May 7, 2018 [14 favorites]
@JamesGunn Might be too soon to ask this, but do you know what Groot's last line is at the end of the movie?
James Gunn @JamesGunn 17h
SPOILER...
.
.
.
"Dad"
I've heard it elsewhere, and I will never, understand why people complain about Shuri's smugness/failure to be humble/being so mean to Bruce Banner and Vision.Really? Because it's IMMEDIATELY obvious to me why some people are complaining about a black woman failing to be humble in that context.
posted by uberchet at 9:43 AM on May 7, 2018 [21 favorites]
but Carrie Coon did the face capture.
The look on Proxima's face when she stares down the heroes after declaring that Thanos has more than enough blood to spill was worth whatever they paid her.
posted by straight at 10:24 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
The look on Proxima's face when she stares down the heroes after declaring that Thanos has more than enough blood to spill was worth whatever they paid her.
posted by straight at 10:24 AM on May 7, 2018 [1 favorite]
"Really? Because it's IMMEDIATELY obvious to me why some people are complaining about a black woman failing to be humble in that context."
Ah, so I'm racist and sexist because I didn't like a single line she said to Bruce Banner. Good to know.
posted by Bugbread at 2:29 PM on May 7, 2018
Ah, so I'm racist and sexist because I didn't like a single line she said to Bruce Banner. Good to know.
posted by Bugbread at 2:29 PM on May 7, 2018
Ah, so I'm racist and sexist because I didn't like a single line she said to Bruce Banner. Good to know.
Unwillingness to believe that societal racism and sexism shape how people respond to media on a gut level? Check.
Knee-jerk defensiveness when you didn't even make the original comment people are responding to? Check.
Pulling the ARE YOU CALLING ME ____ IST CARD? Check.
I mean, the sentiment might not be racist and sexist on its face, but wow, your responses are definitely filling in those bingo spaces.
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:32 PM on May 7, 2018 [27 favorites]
Unwillingness to believe that societal racism and sexism shape how people respond to media on a gut level? Check.
Knee-jerk defensiveness when you didn't even make the original comment people are responding to? Check.
Pulling the ARE YOU CALLING ME ____ IST CARD? Check.
I mean, the sentiment might not be racist and sexist on its face, but wow, your responses are definitely filling in those bingo spaces.
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:32 PM on May 7, 2018 [27 favorites]
tumblr user robotmango:
1. my primary reaction to infinity war is like…. wow. under hypercapitalism we literally can’t imagine any other fables about resource scarcity, huh?
infinity war could have taken thanos’s approach to scarcity somewhere bigger: somewhere that was useful as a parable for our hypocrisy. the way that ragnarok was brave enough to make a parable of empire; the way that black panther could explore diaspora and identity; the way that the winter soldier actually had something to say about the surveillance-terror state.
2. and another thing!
infinity war doesn’t have an articulated ethical debate. it has “i want to kill millions for scarcity reasons” versus “no, don’t kill!” the russos’ flat dialogue hamstrung the heroes with silence in order to make thanos’s position… seem like a position at all. a child could come up with the perfect counter-argument for thanos’s plan (“use your infinite power to make infinite sandwiches??”) but the collective heroes of the galaxy couldn’t be shown saying it out loud even once.
3. i’m still not done. in fact, the more i think about infinity war, the angrier and angrier i get. especially because of two things:
red skull and steve rogers.
hitler’s worst lies about jewish people weren’t just “they’re bad and dirty,” they were also “they’re taking our resources!” nazis campaigned explicitly on the lie that jewish people were stealing the lion’s share of resources; resources that “hungry german children needed.” nazis sold genocide on a platform of scarcity: “this has to happen for us to survive and thrive!” it was a lie then and it’s a lie in infinity war.
you know who could have recognized that lie? steve rogers.
fandomentals.com: Thanos Didn't Have a Point and Someone Should Tell the Writers
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:07 PM on May 7, 2018 [9 favorites]
1. my primary reaction to infinity war is like…. wow. under hypercapitalism we literally can’t imagine any other fables about resource scarcity, huh?
infinity war could have taken thanos’s approach to scarcity somewhere bigger: somewhere that was useful as a parable for our hypocrisy. the way that ragnarok was brave enough to make a parable of empire; the way that black panther could explore diaspora and identity; the way that the winter soldier actually had something to say about the surveillance-terror state.
2. and another thing!
infinity war doesn’t have an articulated ethical debate. it has “i want to kill millions for scarcity reasons” versus “no, don’t kill!” the russos’ flat dialogue hamstrung the heroes with silence in order to make thanos’s position… seem like a position at all. a child could come up with the perfect counter-argument for thanos’s plan (“use your infinite power to make infinite sandwiches??”) but the collective heroes of the galaxy couldn’t be shown saying it out loud even once.
3. i’m still not done. in fact, the more i think about infinity war, the angrier and angrier i get. especially because of two things:
red skull and steve rogers.
hitler’s worst lies about jewish people weren’t just “they’re bad and dirty,” they were also “they’re taking our resources!” nazis campaigned explicitly on the lie that jewish people were stealing the lion’s share of resources; resources that “hungry german children needed.” nazis sold genocide on a platform of scarcity: “this has to happen for us to survive and thrive!” it was a lie then and it’s a lie in infinity war.
you know who could have recognized that lie? steve rogers.
fandomentals.com: Thanos Didn't Have a Point and Someone Should Tell the Writers
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:07 PM on May 7, 2018 [9 favorites]
Meh, those links seems incredibly overthought and overblown. It all boils down to this line from the first link:
This ain't philosophy class.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:30 PM on May 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
so what i needed was someone to openly reject that whole proposition. not just “no, you shouldn’t kill trillions,” but “no, that is fucking ludicrous, i reject that worldview. i reject human life as a brutal competition. group survival, even in the face of scarcity or hardship, is exactly what the fuck we developed culture for.”Which is an uninteresting way of viewing the situation and not really practical. That's like wanting to pause in the midst of WWII and argue about why Hitler is, instead of just flat out stopping him. Isn't wanting to kill trillions of people enough to want to stop any being?
This ain't philosophy class.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:30 PM on May 7, 2018 [8 favorites]
Maybe the problem with Thanos's motivation in the movie can be glossed in that they had to come up with something that was not LOVE OF DEATH AS A CONCEPT AND A PERSON like in the comics. Clunker either way. They did the same thing in the Watchmen movie, come to think of it. Resource scarcity as stand in for our innate human ability to hate and self nullify.
posted by vrakatar at 5:45 PM on May 7, 2018
posted by vrakatar at 5:45 PM on May 7, 2018
Those critiques actually make me think of A. O. Scott's pan, which was less a critique of the movie itself and more of how everything has to be the MCU now. As if Marvel films must all be woke AF, as if that's their job.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:23 PM on May 7, 2018
posted by Going To Maine at 6:23 PM on May 7, 2018
as if Marvel films must all be woke AF, as if that's their job.
I mean... why not hope for more?
posted by TwoStride at 6:33 PM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
I mean... why not hope for more?
posted by TwoStride at 6:33 PM on May 7, 2018 [3 favorites]
Why not indeed? Don't mind me, I am simply full of scorn, and that is no time to comment.
posted by Going To Maine at 6:52 PM on May 7, 2018
posted by Going To Maine at 6:52 PM on May 7, 2018
hitler’s worst lies about jewish people weren’t just “they’re bad and dirty,” they were also “they’re taking our resources!” nazis campaigned explicitly on the lie that jewish people were stealing the lion’s share of resources; resources that “hungry german children needed.” nazis sold genocide on a platform of scarcity: “this has to happen for us to survive and thrive!” it was a lie then and it’s a lie in infinity war.
This is overly simplistic. The Nazis (and the German governments that preceded them,) portrayed Jews as evil, manipulative parasitic outsiders who were party of a shadowy organization that were undermining German values and its society. The propaganda was far more insidious and dangerous than "they're stealing our limited resources."
Scarcity was a part of it. But Germany's campaign to commit genocide began years earlier.
posted by zarq at 5:10 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
This is overly simplistic. The Nazis (and the German governments that preceded them,) portrayed Jews as evil, manipulative parasitic outsiders who were party of a shadowy organization that were undermining German values and its society. The propaganda was far more insidious and dangerous than "they're stealing our limited resources."
Scarcity was a part of it. But Germany's campaign to commit genocide began years earlier.
posted by zarq at 5:10 AM on May 8, 2018 [1 favorite]
Man I wish I liked this movie as you all did. I read all the comments here and your love and detailed examination of the show makes me jealous. For some reason I've never been able to engage with the MCU like that. And this movie was fine and fun enough, but there was just so.. much.. punching. It felt like the movie was about 75% fight scenes and 25% exposition. Fair enough, the movie isn't titled Avengers: Infinity Jokes and Storytelling, but the balance felt off for me.
What I did love was that Dr. Strange was front-and-center for most of the movie and seems to be at the middle of the plot device that will inevitably bring back the beloved characters. The Dr. Strange movie is one of my favorites of the lot, but my read is that for most MCU fans it's one of the less-liked. I enjoyed how unabashedly bizarre it was and I like seeing that same brought back in for this film, could have done with more of it really. Also Cumberbatch vs Junior made for some hilarity.
posted by Nelson at 8:10 AM on May 8, 2018
What I did love was that Dr. Strange was front-and-center for most of the movie and seems to be at the middle of the plot device that will inevitably bring back the beloved characters. The Dr. Strange movie is one of my favorites of the lot, but my read is that for most MCU fans it's one of the less-liked. I enjoyed how unabashedly bizarre it was and I like seeing that same brought back in for this film, could have done with more of it really. Also Cumberbatch vs Junior made for some hilarity.
posted by Nelson at 8:10 AM on May 8, 2018
Can we play the Benedict Cumberbatch game?
My personal best is "Subaru Thule Rack" (Thule is pronounced "too-lie")
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:18 AM on May 8, 2018
My personal best is "Subaru Thule Rack" (Thule is pronounced "too-lie")
posted by Annika Cicada at 9:18 AM on May 8, 2018
> The Dr. Strange movie is one of my favorites of the lot, but my read is that for most MCU fans it's one of the less-liked.
I enjoyed Dr. Strange in the theater, but had a hard time with re-watching, especially the car crash and recovery scenes. Too much of a gut-punch, somehow.
My wife, who is most definitely not a comic book / superhero movie person, watched Black Panther - in the theater, even, on opening weekend - and quite enjoyed it, but I don't think I'd be able to get her to watch Dr. Strange.
Maybe Spiderman: Homecoming?
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:29 AM on May 8, 2018
I enjoyed Dr. Strange in the theater, but had a hard time with re-watching, especially the car crash and recovery scenes. Too much of a gut-punch, somehow.
My wife, who is most definitely not a comic book / superhero movie person, watched Black Panther - in the theater, even, on opening weekend - and quite enjoyed it, but I don't think I'd be able to get her to watch Dr. Strange.
Maybe Spiderman: Homecoming?
posted by RedOrGreen at 11:29 AM on May 8, 2018
Avengers Infinity hit $1 billion in box office a few days ago.
I beleive that is a record for how fast that happend, and apparently only ten other movies have hit $1 billion during thier first theatrical run.
posted by Faintdreams at 1:28 PM on May 9, 2018
I beleive that is a record for how fast that happend, and apparently only ten other movies have hit $1 billion during thier first theatrical run.
posted by Faintdreams at 1:28 PM on May 9, 2018
I finally saw this. I'd call it merely okay for an MCU movie. I liked it more than Ultron, but less than many of the MCU films. Killing that many named characters isn't something that can persist - it's obvious that it's going to be fixed with time travel. Complete with Dr "I looked at 40 gazillion possibly outcomes and found one where we're okay" Strange saying "it was the only way". Also, I'd almost forgotten the sudden shift to Nat and Banner having a thing, and I was disappointed all over again by it. Okoye and Natasha getting to team up in a fight was nice. The Tony/Spiderman stuff was mostly adorkable. (Tom Holland is a fine addition to the roster.) Thor understanding Groot because he took it as an elective is the kid of throw-away silliness I love from The Golden Retriever himself. Nebula's torment reminded me of a particular episode of Hannibal, but Gamora deserved better than to be Thanos' motivation-pain.
My peak excitement in the movie was the Captain Marvel logo showing up at the end.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:22 PM on May 9, 2018
My peak excitement in the movie was the Captain Marvel logo showing up at the end.
posted by rmd1023 at 3:22 PM on May 9, 2018
Also, I'd almost forgotten the sudden shift to Nat and Banner having a thing...
Oh, I think it was clear from their first meeting that Nat developed a thing for Banner. He outsmarted her, but was sweet and reasonable about it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 PM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Oh, I think it was clear from their first meeting that Nat developed a thing for Banner. He outsmarted her, but was sweet and reasonable about it.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:52 PM on May 9, 2018 [1 favorite]
Been thinking about the film and I think Downey/Stark in a way, carried it, and marooned in space with no help. Iron Man was never my favorite Avenger. That would be a tossup, Namor vs 3 or 4 others. But how Tony ever forgives himself for this failure.... That will put my ass in a seat for the next movie.
posted by vrakatar at 7:59 PM on May 9, 2018
posted by vrakatar at 7:59 PM on May 9, 2018
My big gripe: how do you snap your fingers with a gauntlet on?
posted by P.o.B. at 11:49 AM on May 11, 2018
posted by P.o.B. at 11:49 AM on May 11, 2018
He was clearly wearing the incredibly comfortable, yet powerful, knitted version.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:03 PM on May 11, 2018
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:03 PM on May 11, 2018
My big gripe: how do you snap your fingers with a gauntlet on?
He was wearing the gauntlet on his left hand. He snapped his fingers with his right hand. I don't remember if he was wearing a glove on that hand or not.
posted by wabbittwax at 1:00 PM on May 11, 2018
He was wearing the gauntlet on his left hand. He snapped his fingers with his right hand. I don't remember if he was wearing a glove on that hand or not.
posted by wabbittwax at 1:00 PM on May 11, 2018
I recall Thor shoving his axe into him then Thanos looking left and snapping his fingers.
posted by P.o.B. at 1:23 PM on May 11, 2018
posted by P.o.B. at 1:23 PM on May 11, 2018
I do think it's inherently funny that everyone keeps saying Thanos will be able to do it with a snap of his fingers then when the time comes he literally snaps his fingers. Like, it's just an idiom Thanos my dude.
EARLIER, AT NIDAVELLIR
Thanos: You will make me a gauntlet capable of harnessing the power of the Infinity Stones.
Eitri: Okay, fine, fine, just don't kill us all.
Thanos: Also, make sure I can snap my fingers with it on.
Eitri: ...Can I ask why?
Thanos: I have to activate the stones somehow, right? If I wanted shoes, I could just click my heels together, but I want a damn gauntlet, now make it already!
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 2:21 PM on May 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
EARLIER, AT NIDAVELLIR
Thanos: You will make me a gauntlet capable of harnessing the power of the Infinity Stones.
Eitri: Okay, fine, fine, just don't kill us all.
Thanos: Also, make sure I can snap my fingers with it on.
Eitri: ...Can I ask why?
Thanos: I have to activate the stones somehow, right? If I wanted shoes, I could just click my heels together, but I want a damn gauntlet, now make it already!
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 2:21 PM on May 11, 2018 [2 favorites]
Alternatively:
Thanos: One Infinity Gauntlet... and make it snappy!
posted by jason_steakums at 4:39 PM on May 11, 2018 [18 favorites]
Thanos: One Infinity Gauntlet... and make it snappy!
posted by jason_steakums at 4:39 PM on May 11, 2018 [18 favorites]
Also make sure it’s easy to fit the stones into the empty sockets. Like make them snap into place
posted by Nelson at 4:53 PM on May 11, 2018
posted by Nelson at 4:53 PM on May 11, 2018
Wait, why are we even believing that Gamora's planet became a paradise post-genocide? Don't we only have Thanos' word on that? Why the hell should we believe him?
Given that Gamora is the last survivor of her people, I think we can safely file Thanos under "Don't believe his lies."
posted by Uncle Ira at 5:42 PM on May 11, 2018 [11 favorites]
Given that Gamora is the last survivor of her people, I think we can safely file Thanos under "Don't believe his lies."
posted by Uncle Ira at 5:42 PM on May 11, 2018 [11 favorites]
I really want/want to make that yarn gauntlet, but hell if I know what I would do with it. I'm not gonna dress like the rest of Thanos for Halloween, at least. (I wanna be Aggretsuko!)
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:27 PM on May 11, 2018
posted by jenfullmoon at 6:27 PM on May 11, 2018
There was that bit where Ironman shot a special Thanos sized palm lock doodad to keep him from using the gauntlet/stones.
posted by P.o.B. at 8:06 PM on May 11, 2018
posted by P.o.B. at 8:06 PM on May 11, 2018
Jenfullmoon, I don't understand why anyone wouldn't just wear the gauntlet with their normal attire.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:55 AM on May 12, 2018
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:55 AM on May 12, 2018
I'm seriously considering it, except for not having that much yellow around the wardrobe and it'd be kinda hard to type in gauntlets :)
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:59 PM on May 12, 2018
posted by jenfullmoon at 2:59 PM on May 12, 2018
A total Marvel novice reviews Avengers: Infinity War – do you have to know all about the MCU to enjoy it? One of the criticisms of Infinity War is that one has to be conversant in the previous Marvel movies to understand it. A tongue-in-cheek test of the idea.
posted by happyroach at 3:36 PM on May 12, 2018
posted by happyroach at 3:36 PM on May 12, 2018
Damn Pinterest, now I want to find those patterns and it won't let me! (Good idea, though. What's he need fingers for?)
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:08 PM on May 12, 2018
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:08 PM on May 12, 2018
Okay I just saw this for the second time and I swear in the scene where Parker turns up in the park in anew York at the beginning at Stark asks where the hell he came from, Peter says...
“From the future [, Mr. stark or something to that effe t]
Which on *second* viewing, knowing/suspecting that Strange gave Thanos the Time Stone on purpose and that Fury used 90s era tech to contact someone SUGGESTS A LOT.
posted by danhon at 10:23 PM on May 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
“From the future [, Mr. stark or something to that effe t]
Which on *second* viewing, knowing/suspecting that Strange gave Thanos the Time Stone on purpose and that Fury used 90s era tech to contact someone SUGGESTS A LOT.
posted by danhon at 10:23 PM on May 12, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hmm, pretty sure it was “From a field trip,” since Peter and his classmates were on a school bus. Then I think he mentioned the MOMA in the next line.
posted by kwaller at 4:35 AM on May 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by kwaller at 4:35 AM on May 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
Just saw the movie again, and skimmed through some of the comments above.
- I would favorite joyceanmachine's comment more than once if I could. Shuri's conversation highlights the cobbled-together nature of the Vision and how very smart people can end up doing very stupid things, by letting this android walk around with one of the Stones on his forehead after they'd treated the Tesseract with such care and respect that they'd entrusted it to literal gods. Moreover, Bruce seems to realize it as he's realizing just how smart Shuri is while she's having the "wow, really?" talk with him. (There's also the fact that Shuri's nation is about to be invaded by universe-class curb-stompers that may have put a bit of an edge to their conversation.)
- I wouldn't trust Thanos' assertion that Gamora's home planet is a paradise now. He has that conversation with her right before torturing her sister to get her to give up the location of the Soul Stone.
- I probably won't watch it again until at least after A4. I can't bear to watch Peter die again.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:01 AM on May 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
- I would favorite joyceanmachine's comment more than once if I could. Shuri's conversation highlights the cobbled-together nature of the Vision and how very smart people can end up doing very stupid things, by letting this android walk around with one of the Stones on his forehead after they'd treated the Tesseract with such care and respect that they'd entrusted it to literal gods. Moreover, Bruce seems to realize it as he's realizing just how smart Shuri is while she's having the "wow, really?" talk with him. (There's also the fact that Shuri's nation is about to be invaded by universe-class curb-stompers that may have put a bit of an edge to their conversation.)
- I wouldn't trust Thanos' assertion that Gamora's home planet is a paradise now. He has that conversation with her right before torturing her sister to get her to give up the location of the Soul Stone.
- I probably won't watch it again until at least after A4. I can't bear to watch Peter die again.
posted by Halloween Jack at 10:01 AM on May 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
I'm still hung up on the soul stone paradox.... like, do you really love your daughter if you would kill her for a shiny rock? I say no. Therefore - no love = no shiny rock. I would have bought it more if he would've had to chop off one of his own limbs.....
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 1:18 PM on May 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Gyre,Gimble,Wabe, Esq. at 1:18 PM on May 13, 2018 [2 favorites]
Question: is Shuri's fate currently unknown?
By right of birth and strength of character she is the Black Panther and Queen of Wakanda.
What can we expect her to do in the next film? Rule.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:42 PM on May 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
By right of birth and strength of character she is the Black Panther and Queen of Wakanda.
What can we expect her to do in the next film? Rule.
posted by justsomebodythatyouusedtoknow at 2:42 PM on May 13, 2018 [8 favorites]
On second watch I remembered to check after the movie if Dr. Strange was throwing the Crimson Bands of Cyttorak at Thanos on Titan, because that is the kind of thing I get unreasonably excited about, only to find out that apparently in the MCU the Crimson Bands are those metal bondage straps Strange threw on Kaecilius back in his movie and... well, that's kind of a letdown. And worth retconning whatever source said it was the magic gadget, because come on! But in the plus column, multi-armed Strange splitting into a ton of Stranges to fight Thanos is exactly the kind of visual I want more of from movie Strange.
posted by jason_steakums at 6:29 PM on May 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by jason_steakums at 6:29 PM on May 13, 2018 [4 favorites]
Also I just can't overstate how happy I am that they were smart enough to put Gamora front and center and how that paid off. For a few years now I've been expecting that with a handful of Guardians characters being the only ones with a believable emotional connection to the villain, and the Guardians being so disconnected from the other heroes, Thanos would come across as another empty Marvel villain. I was honestly expecting this whole movie to be all about Tony's fears and expecting characters like Gamora to have very minor roles. What I wasn't expecting was them using an emotional connection between Gamora and Thanos as a stepping stone to give the audience an emotional connection to Thanos, which is a way better trick than making all the characters have an established connection to the villain, such a tidy, direct shortcut. They've been steadily learning how to do villains in the MCU after a slow start and I think they're really hitting their stride.
And for the next movie, I can. not. wait to see Nebula get a very well earned and satisfying conclusion to her character arc, every time she hits Thanos in his big stupid head it's going to feel so cathartic.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:45 PM on May 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
And for the next movie, I can. not. wait to see Nebula get a very well earned and satisfying conclusion to her character arc, every time she hits Thanos in his big stupid head it's going to feel so cathartic.
posted by jason_steakums at 7:45 PM on May 13, 2018 [11 favorites]
apparently in the MCU the Crimson Bands are those metal bondage straps Strange threw on Kaecilius back in his movie
Those physical metal bands were just a focus for the magic. Strange later refined the spell so that it drew both notional effect and power from Cyttorak's Crimson Cosmos, removing the need for a material stratum.
*Collects No-Prize*
posted by Iridic at 7:27 AM on May 14, 2018 [8 favorites]
Those physical metal bands were just a focus for the magic. Strange later refined the spell so that it drew both notional effect and power from Cyttorak's Crimson Cosmos, removing the need for a material stratum.
*Collects No-Prize*
posted by Iridic at 7:27 AM on May 14, 2018 [8 favorites]
My big gripe: how do you snap your fingers with a gauntlet on?
He's got all six Infinity Stones at that point. Including the Reality Stone; your rules don't apply to such a snappy dresser.
it has “i want to kill millions for scarcity reasons” versus “no, don’t kill!” the russos’ flat dialogue hamstrung the heroes with silence in order to make thanos’s position… seem like a position at all. a child could come up with the perfect counter-argument for thanos’s plan (“use your infinite power to make infinite sandwiches??”) but the collective heroes of the galaxy couldn’t be shown saying it out loud even once.
I've seen this argument in a few places and...you know something? He's called the Mad Titan for a reason, people. He's broken from reality. Still capable of formulating a plan and acting on it, but the base idea is fucking nuts - even though he can function enough & has enough power to go about executing it. He's not going to be swayed by someone pointing out that the nature of population growth is such that his 50% solution is only going to last for a generation or two, or that better means of population control include such things as better education, equal rights, access to reproductive health, and so forth, or that he could use the Infinity Stones to feed everyone or improve agricultural production and distribution systems to create equality. The problem with Thanos is that he is convinced he is right, and no one and no evidence is going to sway him from that belief. By the time the Avengers have figured out the plan, it's fucking scramble time because he's already a third of the way to achieving his goal and there's no fucking time for negotiations or trying to be rational with an irrational being (that is also why I don't have a problem with his fucked up relationship with Gamora; if you are willing to make everyone's life in the universe a 50/50 bet, you have already included the people you love in that calculation - and what love looks like to the Mad Titan is a fucked up thing to begin with). Anyways, Thanos has convinced himself of this crazy idea, and that's it.
Here was my question over the weekend - was it possible that Thanos himself could have died in the Super Snap? He wanted every living thing to have the same chance, so that it was fair & impartial - could he have died in that moment as well (or at least thought he could have)?
posted by nubs at 8:24 AM on May 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
He's got all six Infinity Stones at that point. Including the Reality Stone; your rules don't apply to such a snappy dresser.
it has “i want to kill millions for scarcity reasons” versus “no, don’t kill!” the russos’ flat dialogue hamstrung the heroes with silence in order to make thanos’s position… seem like a position at all. a child could come up with the perfect counter-argument for thanos’s plan (“use your infinite power to make infinite sandwiches??”) but the collective heroes of the galaxy couldn’t be shown saying it out loud even once.
I've seen this argument in a few places and...you know something? He's called the Mad Titan for a reason, people. He's broken from reality. Still capable of formulating a plan and acting on it, but the base idea is fucking nuts - even though he can function enough & has enough power to go about executing it. He's not going to be swayed by someone pointing out that the nature of population growth is such that his 50% solution is only going to last for a generation or two, or that better means of population control include such things as better education, equal rights, access to reproductive health, and so forth, or that he could use the Infinity Stones to feed everyone or improve agricultural production and distribution systems to create equality. The problem with Thanos is that he is convinced he is right, and no one and no evidence is going to sway him from that belief. By the time the Avengers have figured out the plan, it's fucking scramble time because he's already a third of the way to achieving his goal and there's no fucking time for negotiations or trying to be rational with an irrational being (that is also why I don't have a problem with his fucked up relationship with Gamora; if you are willing to make everyone's life in the universe a 50/50 bet, you have already included the people you love in that calculation - and what love looks like to the Mad Titan is a fucked up thing to begin with). Anyways, Thanos has convinced himself of this crazy idea, and that's it.
Here was my question over the weekend - was it possible that Thanos himself could have died in the Super Snap? He wanted every living thing to have the same chance, so that it was fair & impartial - could he have died in that moment as well (or at least thought he could have)?
posted by nubs at 8:24 AM on May 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
I thought that would have been an interesting twist- Thanos sitting down for the sunset, and then realizing that his feet are turning to ash. Last words something to the effect of "ah yes..."
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 10:03 AM on May 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 10:03 AM on May 14, 2018 [7 favorites]
I honestly thought he did die at first for a moment, when it immediately cut from the snap to that scene of him talking to child Gamora on that plain of water.
I wonder if he anticipated being so hurt by the snap, limping in the last scene with a rough looking gauntlet. Strange letting him accomplish his goal as their only means to the good guys winning does make a kind of sense in that light, now they only have to go after a weaker Thanos with no Black Order to get the stones and undo everything instead of going through with a plan to take on Thanos at full power with a full complement of lackeys.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:19 AM on May 14, 2018
I wonder if he anticipated being so hurt by the snap, limping in the last scene with a rough looking gauntlet. Strange letting him accomplish his goal as their only means to the good guys winning does make a kind of sense in that light, now they only have to go after a weaker Thanos with no Black Order to get the stones and undo everything instead of going through with a plan to take on Thanos at full power with a full complement of lackeys.
posted by jason_steakums at 10:19 AM on May 14, 2018
happyroach: A total Marvel novice reviews Avengers: Infinity War – do you have to know all about the MCU to enjoy it?
That was a really fun read!
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:14 PM on May 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
That was a really fun read!
... stop the evil Thermal from killing half the population of the universe through the superpowers of infinity stones. Go team!And I guess it worked out better than I'd expected.
posted by RedOrGreen at 12:14 PM on May 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
Finally fled the kiddos long enough to go see this. I Have Thoughts.
It’s all undone by mcguffin #214 and none of it matters at all 100% chance
Point of order: It's not a McGuffin if it actually does something.
I was also wondering why Strange couldn't teleport them back to Earth, teleport reinforcements from Earth, or use teleportation to run and hide the Time Stone from Thanos
Nobody ever says it but my assumption was that he just can't travel those kinds of distances. I think it's Strange who asks whether Stark can turn the ship around and take them home, which seems like a fairly effective way of indicating that he can't do it. As far as teleporting to hide the stone, that seems sort of irrelevant. He's able to hide it sufficiently well that he has to be compelled to retrieve it and hand it over.
Thor's side trip to make an axe was completely unnecessary, should have been cut.
That would completely ruin the big entrance that gets the biggest, most exuberant cheer from the theater audience.
I'm also fairly sure the origin of the gauntlet will matter somehow. No idea how, but I have to think it was more than just a convenience to have had Thanos roll through there and get his bling-holder made by the same person who makes Thor's axe.
The interesting question here is whether Marvel will have the guts to bring the dead back at a cost. If somebody just snaps their fingers and people return, then yeah, it's cheap. If it's an epic struggle where not everyone comes back and those that do feel the emotional weight of the death/resurrection, then it could be a really good story.
Depending on how they do it, it could be a good story just to have them returned, but not right away. Perhaps right away from their perspective, but to everyone else they've been gone a long time. Long enough for them to be mourned and have much of their loved ones have moved on. Now half the population has to deal with their loved ones suddenly - from their perspective - viewing them as one step removed from ghosts. Parents are faced with kids who are suddenly a year older (if we use A3->A4 release separation), spouses who remarried, other folks who picked up the cowl and adopted the hero identity (c'mon Miles!).
I thought this movie was amazing and somehow avoided being a total clusterfuck with so many characters, not to mention the fun interactions between teaming up characters you wouldn't expect.
I really walked into this 50% with a sense of obligation. I was aggressively bored during Avengers: Ultron and was dreading more extended massive fight sequences. I was pleasantly surprised that most stuff felt more limited in scope, till the Wakanda battle. Which was, a few up-close moments excluded, my least favorite chunk of the movie. Which makes me angry based on how much I loved Black Panther.
Yeah, I was pretty surprised by that. She even says "that isn't real love" and then ...apparently uh, the universe thinks it is? Thumbs down on that.
I feel like this is a lot of beanplating something which was really the universe demanding a pretty nebulously specified price. I get the impulse, but I think it's also fair to say the universe just didn't define their terms real well. "Give up what you most love" really should just never work for Thanos if we don't view it as a demand to hand over a thing - and that's for sure the way he loves his adopted daughter, as a possession rather than as a person - because otherwise what he'd have to give up is his quest. Which brought him there in the first place. Clearly he loves that more than his daughter because he's willing to sacrifice her to accomplish it. It's an anti-tautology and I think it just doesn't merit examination, as much as I am there for discussing the fucked up ways so many folks manifest supposed love.
I'm not convinced Thanos has given that much thought to the ecological effects of wiping out 50% of populations either.
I don't think I saw it linked above, so let me share the excellent TOR article on just how many ways Thanos' concept doesn't work out, up to an including economic inequality. Heads I Win, Tails YOU DIE: Thanos’ Plan is Even Worse Than You Know
It'll be interesting to what extent, if any, the sequel examines this concept. It can't embrace it to the extent where it's realistic because I think you'd simply have complete societal collapse. Even putting aside the fact that now almost every person on earth has wicked PTSD, nothing in any of our societies can cope with half of everyone currently doing their jobs just going poof. Never mind the car crashes and nuke plant meltdowns. Just keeping the plates spinning wouldn't work.
They can't do that, but there could be some interesting conflict between the remaining heroes about what the priority is - picking up the pieces or going off to try to get the stones and undo it. There's also some space for dealing with the factions that don't want it undone; my own wife, when I mentioned the "half of everyone is just gone," quipped that we could do with a little population pressure relief. She wouldn't really want it to happen but some opportunistic folks and whackos would actually be pleased with things. There's something to mine there, though I wonder if it would instead end up being in some other character's movie.
posted by phearlez at 1:12 PM on May 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
It’s all undone by mcguffin #214 and none of it matters at all 100% chance
Point of order: It's not a McGuffin if it actually does something.
I was also wondering why Strange couldn't teleport them back to Earth, teleport reinforcements from Earth, or use teleportation to run and hide the Time Stone from Thanos
Nobody ever says it but my assumption was that he just can't travel those kinds of distances. I think it's Strange who asks whether Stark can turn the ship around and take them home, which seems like a fairly effective way of indicating that he can't do it. As far as teleporting to hide the stone, that seems sort of irrelevant. He's able to hide it sufficiently well that he has to be compelled to retrieve it and hand it over.
Thor's side trip to make an axe was completely unnecessary, should have been cut.
That would completely ruin the big entrance that gets the biggest, most exuberant cheer from the theater audience.
I'm also fairly sure the origin of the gauntlet will matter somehow. No idea how, but I have to think it was more than just a convenience to have had Thanos roll through there and get his bling-holder made by the same person who makes Thor's axe.
The interesting question here is whether Marvel will have the guts to bring the dead back at a cost. If somebody just snaps their fingers and people return, then yeah, it's cheap. If it's an epic struggle where not everyone comes back and those that do feel the emotional weight of the death/resurrection, then it could be a really good story.
Depending on how they do it, it could be a good story just to have them returned, but not right away. Perhaps right away from their perspective, but to everyone else they've been gone a long time. Long enough for them to be mourned and have much of their loved ones have moved on. Now half the population has to deal with their loved ones suddenly - from their perspective - viewing them as one step removed from ghosts. Parents are faced with kids who are suddenly a year older (if we use A3->A4 release separation), spouses who remarried, other folks who picked up the cowl and adopted the hero identity (c'mon Miles!).
I thought this movie was amazing and somehow avoided being a total clusterfuck with so many characters, not to mention the fun interactions between teaming up characters you wouldn't expect.
I really walked into this 50% with a sense of obligation. I was aggressively bored during Avengers: Ultron and was dreading more extended massive fight sequences. I was pleasantly surprised that most stuff felt more limited in scope, till the Wakanda battle. Which was, a few up-close moments excluded, my least favorite chunk of the movie. Which makes me angry based on how much I loved Black Panther.
Yeah, I was pretty surprised by that. She even says "that isn't real love" and then ...apparently uh, the universe thinks it is? Thumbs down on that.
I feel like this is a lot of beanplating something which was really the universe demanding a pretty nebulously specified price. I get the impulse, but I think it's also fair to say the universe just didn't define their terms real well. "Give up what you most love" really should just never work for Thanos if we don't view it as a demand to hand over a thing - and that's for sure the way he loves his adopted daughter, as a possession rather than as a person - because otherwise what he'd have to give up is his quest. Which brought him there in the first place. Clearly he loves that more than his daughter because he's willing to sacrifice her to accomplish it. It's an anti-tautology and I think it just doesn't merit examination, as much as I am there for discussing the fucked up ways so many folks manifest supposed love.
I'm not convinced Thanos has given that much thought to the ecological effects of wiping out 50% of populations either.
I don't think I saw it linked above, so let me share the excellent TOR article on just how many ways Thanos' concept doesn't work out, up to an including economic inequality. Heads I Win, Tails YOU DIE: Thanos’ Plan is Even Worse Than You Know
It'll be interesting to what extent, if any, the sequel examines this concept. It can't embrace it to the extent where it's realistic because I think you'd simply have complete societal collapse. Even putting aside the fact that now almost every person on earth has wicked PTSD, nothing in any of our societies can cope with half of everyone currently doing their jobs just going poof. Never mind the car crashes and nuke plant meltdowns. Just keeping the plates spinning wouldn't work.
They can't do that, but there could be some interesting conflict between the remaining heroes about what the priority is - picking up the pieces or going off to try to get the stones and undo it. There's also some space for dealing with the factions that don't want it undone; my own wife, when I mentioned the "half of everyone is just gone," quipped that we could do with a little population pressure relief. She wouldn't really want it to happen but some opportunistic folks and whackos would actually be pleased with things. There's something to mine there, though I wonder if it would instead end up being in some other character's movie.
posted by phearlez at 1:12 PM on May 14, 2018 [3 favorites]
I wonder if he anticipated being so hurt by the snap, limping in the last scene with a rough looking gauntlet. Strange letting him accomplish his goal as their only means to the good guys winning does make a kind of sense in that light, now they only have to go after a weaker Thanos
I kinda thought the limp was at least in part from the blow from Thor's axe - but he did suffer a lot from the Snapture. I've been puzzling over whatever Strange's plan is, and there was a moment towards the end of the fight that the movie took some time to make significant - Stark manages to cut Thanos, who dabs the blood away and says "All that, for a little blood." Somehow, the blood of Thanos is significant to solving this thing, I think - Strange needed Tony to see that Thanos could be hurt/get that blood. And Thor's axe should have more of it - it was the only weapon we saw that did anything significant to Thanos.
posted by nubs at 2:25 PM on May 14, 2018
I kinda thought the limp was at least in part from the blow from Thor's axe - but he did suffer a lot from the Snapture. I've been puzzling over whatever Strange's plan is, and there was a moment towards the end of the fight that the movie took some time to make significant - Stark manages to cut Thanos, who dabs the blood away and says "All that, for a little blood." Somehow, the blood of Thanos is significant to solving this thing, I think - Strange needed Tony to see that Thanos could be hurt/get that blood. And Thor's axe should have more of it - it was the only weapon we saw that did anything significant to Thanos.
posted by nubs at 2:25 PM on May 14, 2018
I have gone into every main line marvel movie since Winter Solider convinced I’m gonna have to watch Steve Rogers get shot in the head with my very own eyes so I was NOT READY To hear Peter Parker beg for his life. Yikes. Kudos on Helmsworth too, he was really selling the being driven slightly mad from grief thing.
I knew it had to end with Thanos triumphant cause it gives you a perfect second half story - there where so many references and callbacks to the first Avengers movie about halfway though watching this I thought they where gonna back to the battle of New York via time stone and now I’m convinced that’s the next movie.
I fell for a fake spoiler where Thanos, cause he’s the mad titan and all, gets rid of Cap by sending back back to his own time - which I then thought of wouldn’t that be interesting if he then uses his foreknowledge of the future to prevent the HYDRA takeover of the SSR, free Bucky from mind control which prevents Martha and Howard’s assassination which leads to a less fucked out Tomy Stark and wait a second I think I have o write this fic.
posted by The Whelk at 4:07 PM on May 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
I knew it had to end with Thanos triumphant cause it gives you a perfect second half story - there where so many references and callbacks to the first Avengers movie about halfway though watching this I thought they where gonna back to the battle of New York via time stone and now I’m convinced that’s the next movie.
I fell for a fake spoiler where Thanos, cause he’s the mad titan and all, gets rid of Cap by sending back back to his own time - which I then thought of wouldn’t that be interesting if he then uses his foreknowledge of the future to prevent the HYDRA takeover of the SSR, free Bucky from mind control which prevents Martha and Howard’s assassination which leads to a less fucked out Tomy Stark and wait a second I think I have o write this fic.
posted by The Whelk at 4:07 PM on May 14, 2018 [6 favorites]
Time-travel is an excellent opportunity for identity porn and romance a la my favorite Steve/Tony fic, hint HINT Marvel
posted by nicebookrack at 6:08 PM on May 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by nicebookrack at 6:08 PM on May 14, 2018 [1 favorite]
so, EXTRAPOLATING the next movie is Steve and Tony trying to undo the events via TIME TRAVEL and If I was in charge ..this is when we kill off Cap and Tony but also undo all the deaths from this movie They are the hinge and relationship for the first phase and need to go away to make something new. Tony dies doing something self scarfice ( If we're going to to 2012 I kinda want to him to redo the nuclear bomb but not come back) Steve dies in a random act of violence , i've been waiting for him to get sniper assassinated since like 2010 sooo -
everyone who got ashed out of existence comes back but people who DIED, stay dead , along with all the core Avengers needed to make it happen-clearing the scene for Stage Four and the post-ten year anniversary - long story short, this is how you get Captain Marvel as the lead of the Avengers.
posted by The Whelk at 1:31 AM on May 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
everyone who got ashed out of existence comes back but people who DIED, stay dead , along with all the core Avengers needed to make it happen-clearing the scene for Stage Four and the post-ten year anniversary - long story short, this is how you get Captain Marvel as the lead of the Avengers.
posted by The Whelk at 1:31 AM on May 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
Moviebob: You Are Being Too Hard On Star-Lord.
posted by Pendragon at 6:13 AM on May 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by Pendragon at 6:13 AM on May 15, 2018 [1 favorite]
everyone who got ashed out of existence comes back but people who DIED, stay dead
Well, that's just gonna fuck Thor up even more.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 PM on May 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
Well, that's just gonna fuck Thor up even more.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 PM on May 15, 2018 [2 favorites]
I'm okay with everyone else staying dead so long as they find a way to bring back Killmonger so we can get the ridiculously fertile dynamic of "Magneto but about an actual minority's actual history" for future Black Panther movies
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:49 PM on May 15, 2018
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:49 PM on May 15, 2018
They have to bring back Gamora. I like her!!!! I want my Gamora/Nebula spin-off !!!
posted by Pendragon at 4:34 AM on May 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 4:34 AM on May 16, 2018 [2 favorites]
Magneto but about an actual minority's actual history
Magneto is Jewish. His powers manifested in Auschwitz when he was separated from his parents.
posted by signal at 5:58 AM on May 16, 2018 [25 favorites]
Magneto is Jewish. His powers manifested in Auschwitz when he was separated from his parents.
posted by signal at 5:58 AM on May 16, 2018 [25 favorites]
Is it just me or is Hulk coming down with a serious case of The Worf Effect? First Thor bests him in Thor: Ragnarok, and now Thanos delivers a swift beatdown in Infinity War.
If I were Hulk I'd be unwilling to come out either, at least until the writers come up with a better use for him than "beat him up to show how much of a badass this other character is"
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 3:48 PM on May 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
If I were Hulk I'd be unwilling to come out either, at least until the writers come up with a better use for him than "beat him up to show how much of a badass this other character is"
posted by Mr.Encyclopedia at 3:48 PM on May 17, 2018 [2 favorites]
Sorry, I phrased that poorly. Magneto is canonically Jewish, but he advocates in the movies, at least, on behalf of mutants and their treatment, rather than Jewish people. But yeah, that’s a valid point too.
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:54 PM on May 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by DoctorFedora at 3:54 PM on May 17, 2018 [1 favorite]
Hulk is super Worf Effect.
Thor beats him in avengers, Tony Beats him in Age of Ultron, Thor beats him again in Ragnarok, Thanos beats him here. 100% of the time we've seen MCU hulk in a movie he gets his ass kicked once just to show us how tough someone else is.
posted by French Fry at 8:22 AM on May 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
Thor beats him in avengers, Tony Beats him in Age of Ultron, Thor beats him again in Ragnarok, Thanos beats him here. 100% of the time we've seen MCU hulk in a movie he gets his ass kicked once just to show us how tough someone else is.
posted by French Fry at 8:22 AM on May 18, 2018 [2 favorites]
I haven't seen the film, but I assume the Snapture here on Earth affected only human beings, rather than making half of all the other creatures disappear too? Or did half the dogs, cats, dolphins, chimps, bees, bacteria and plant life etc also turn to ash? What would happen if half the bacteria in your body turned to ash but the rest of you didn't? Would it be fatal?
How did this all play out elsewhere in the universe? Is it only the dominant species that gets Snaptured on each planet? What about planets where there is no single dominant species? Or ones that are so primitive their own overconsumption problem is still centuries away?
Is a pregnant woman who gets Snaptured balanced out by one survivor or two? Does the answer depend on how far along she was? Could a baby in the womb get Snaptured but not the woman carrying it?
I'm just asking.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:16 AM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
How did this all play out elsewhere in the universe? Is it only the dominant species that gets Snaptured on each planet? What about planets where there is no single dominant species? Or ones that are so primitive their own overconsumption problem is still centuries away?
Is a pregnant woman who gets Snaptured balanced out by one survivor or two? Does the answer depend on how far along she was? Could a baby in the womb get Snaptured but not the woman carrying it?
I'm just asking.
posted by Paul Slade at 9:16 AM on May 19, 2018 [2 favorites]
600 comments deep so posting solely for the record…
1. At what point does Strange begin playing the odds to actually defeat Thanos, not just hide the stone and risk the war continuing on endlessly? Does this go into his acceding to Tony wanting to go to Titan back when Strange wanted to go someplace else?
2. Gamora’s death fits in with the repeated theme of do you/don’t you sacrifice the one for the many (thanks, Dickens via Spock!) I agree that if the idea of the soul stone was the sacrifice of something you loved, then how can you kill so readily kill someone you truly love? Then I got to thinking about parents who would rather their child die quickly than go through terminal illnesses, war, etc.
3. I also remembered Buffy’s* death to save the world and really wanted Gamora to throw herself off the cliff to save Quill's life and homeworld (‘cause Thanos can’t kill her to get the stone if she’s already dead) but the stone only notes the sacrifice for love and gives itself to Thanos anyway. *Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a different show entirely for the those trying to keep up
4. I really didn’t understand how the stones worked individually or together. Was any of this reality or all soap bubbles? Why did Thanos not use the reality stone to free himself on Titan?
5. Also played heavily into the problem of no one ever actually doing anything when they should of, Tony calling Steve, Quill killing Gamora, Wanda killing Vision until too late, Thor doesn’t do a 2nd blow to Thanos, etc….
posted by beaning at 4:49 PM on May 20, 2018
1. At what point does Strange begin playing the odds to actually defeat Thanos, not just hide the stone and risk the war continuing on endlessly? Does this go into his acceding to Tony wanting to go to Titan back when Strange wanted to go someplace else?
2. Gamora’s death fits in with the repeated theme of do you/don’t you sacrifice the one for the many (thanks, Dickens via Spock!) I agree that if the idea of the soul stone was the sacrifice of something you loved, then how can you kill so readily kill someone you truly love? Then I got to thinking about parents who would rather their child die quickly than go through terminal illnesses, war, etc.
3. I also remembered Buffy’s* death to save the world and really wanted Gamora to throw herself off the cliff to save Quill's life and homeworld (‘cause Thanos can’t kill her to get the stone if she’s already dead) but the stone only notes the sacrifice for love and gives itself to Thanos anyway. *Buffy the Vampire Slayer, a different show entirely for the those trying to keep up
4. I really didn’t understand how the stones worked individually or together. Was any of this reality or all soap bubbles? Why did Thanos not use the reality stone to free himself on Titan?
5. Also played heavily into the problem of no one ever actually doing anything when they should of, Tony calling Steve, Quill killing Gamora, Wanda killing Vision until too late, Thor doesn’t do a 2nd blow to Thanos, etc….
posted by beaning at 4:49 PM on May 20, 2018
Watched it again today with some friends who hadn't seen it yet and liked it more a second time. I think that there are two reasons why it worked better for me this time: one is that I knew that it was Thanos's story and not the Avengers' and viewing that way makes the narrative work better; the second is that I wasn't all twisted up worrying about how the team is going to thwart Thanos's plan and could just enjoy the visuals and the dialog.
I'm thinking that I should just rewatch the whole darn MCU movie cycle from Iron Man 1 on this summer since I've never watched any of them a second time.
posted by octothorpe at 5:28 PM on May 20, 2018
I'm thinking that I should just rewatch the whole darn MCU movie cycle from Iron Man 1 on this summer since I've never watched any of them a second time.
posted by octothorpe at 5:28 PM on May 20, 2018
I've never watched any of them a second time.
Many times I've sat down to rewatch a MCU movie at home after seeing it in theater months prior. I always think that now I'll get to savor all the details that sailed past me when I was watching on on the huge screen with the deafening cinema audio.
I always find that it's the exact same movie, and I get exactly as much as I got the first go around. I enjoy the movies, but they don't mature or expand with age.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:42 PM on May 20, 2018
Many times I've sat down to rewatch a MCU movie at home after seeing it in theater months prior. I always think that now I'll get to savor all the details that sailed past me when I was watching on on the huge screen with the deafening cinema audio.
I always find that it's the exact same movie, and I get exactly as much as I got the first go around. I enjoy the movies, but they don't mature or expand with age.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 5:42 PM on May 20, 2018
I found myself enjoying it more the second time, too. The first time, I was just sort of numbed by all the CGI fighting. The second time, I was able to focus on the characters more. It's interesting that Rocket got more of a character arc in this film than in the last Guardians film.
posted by MrBadExample at 7:07 PM on May 20, 2018
posted by MrBadExample at 7:07 PM on May 20, 2018
I always find that it's the exact same movie, and I get exactly as much as I got the first go around. I enjoy the movies, but they don't mature or expand with age.
Yeah, I almost never rewatch films made after 1990 or so for that exact reason which was why I was so surprised that I enjoyed a second viewing of this one.
posted by octothorpe at 7:44 PM on May 20, 2018
Yeah, I almost never rewatch films made after 1990 or so for that exact reason which was why I was so surprised that I enjoyed a second viewing of this one.
posted by octothorpe at 7:44 PM on May 20, 2018
I get something new every time I re-watch any movie (a joke, a background character or background action, a subtle nuance that I didn't catch before), even Marvel movies. That's the fun of it for me.
posted by cooker girl at 6:23 AM on May 21, 2018
posted by cooker girl at 6:23 AM on May 21, 2018
I really didn’t understand how the stones worked individually or together. Was any of this reality or all soap bubbles? Why did Thanos not use the reality stone to free himself on Titan?
This is headcanon with respect to Infinity War, but one thing that gets hammered home a lot in the Infinity Gauntlet comics and subsequent stories is that omnipotence is overwhelming. The only reason Thanos or any other mortal who holds the gems can be defeated is because their own minds betray them and they don't use the power optimally, and seeing as they keep losing it seems to be a significant problem. So Star-Lord's plan of just confusing the hell out of Thanos so he'd react on instinct and not God them to death was a solid one, canonically speaking.
That said, I only just got to the theater this weekend, so I'm gonna be the guy who comes into a thread that's already 600 posts deep and dumps his first reactions. Apologies!
1) Holy crap, that was bleak. The fight scenes were really great and there were ample quips and punch-the-air moments, but with any knowledge of the comics it's hard not to know from the beginning how it's going to end. That casts a pall over the whole experience, even before you consider the fact that we've now appended "and then EVERYBODY FUCKING DIES" to the end of the delightful-in-itself Thor: Ragnarok. I'm sure there's a wealth of details to find in a rewatch, but I don't think I can bring myself to go through it again until the sequel is out.
1a) But speaking of punch-the-air moments, HOLY SHIT GROOT CUT OFF HIS OWN ARM TO FORM THE HANDLE FOR STORMBREAKER. That was the most heavy-metal thing in the MCU and it's competing with a hundred-foot fire giant that destroys literal Asgard by stabbing it with a flaming sword.
1b) And speaking of the jokes, even more than that Groot scene I cannot believe they finally paid off Rocket's obsession with getting that one Ravager's prosthetic eye. Whether that was James Gunn working something in or the Russos picking up a thread he left for them... *chef kiss gesture*
2) Looking back at the MCU's long line of Generic Evil Bad Guys Who Will Kick Your Puppy And Steal Lollipops From Babies, it was absolutely the correct movie-writing decision not to make Thanos the death-obsessed nihilist of the comics, and they did a good job coming up with a new motivation for him (albeit one that creates a few plot holes in past entries). Nonetheless, as a Marvel fan whose first good comic was Infinity Gauntlet, who reread those issues until they literally fell apart 10 years later and who was friggin' thrilled to be able to talk with Jim Starlin about the movie at a convention this spring, I'm still let down that we're never going to see that character on the screen.
3) Loved the post-credit scene. I accept that it's utterly opaque to people who aren't obsessing over the movies coming out a year from now, but I nearly shouted in the theater when that starburst logo blinked on. Also, thinking back on it whoever was responsible for that pager should take a bow, because it says a lot about where the Captain Marvel movie is going, and why she hasn't been seen so far (because if she were someplace where she'd hear about aliens invading Earth, she could have traded in her beeper).
4) I'm not too broken up about the imminent reset button. Some form of that has been set up ever since Dr. Strange discovered what the Eye of Agamotto can do, much less when you introduce actual omnipotence into the setting. There's still stakes for the stuff that's not at the super-super-super-cosmic level where all of that comes into play.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:50 AM on May 21, 2018 [9 favorites]
This is headcanon with respect to Infinity War, but one thing that gets hammered home a lot in the Infinity Gauntlet comics and subsequent stories is that omnipotence is overwhelming. The only reason Thanos or any other mortal who holds the gems can be defeated is because their own minds betray them and they don't use the power optimally, and seeing as they keep losing it seems to be a significant problem. So Star-Lord's plan of just confusing the hell out of Thanos so he'd react on instinct and not God them to death was a solid one, canonically speaking.
That said, I only just got to the theater this weekend, so I'm gonna be the guy who comes into a thread that's already 600 posts deep and dumps his first reactions. Apologies!
1) Holy crap, that was bleak. The fight scenes were really great and there were ample quips and punch-the-air moments, but with any knowledge of the comics it's hard not to know from the beginning how it's going to end. That casts a pall over the whole experience, even before you consider the fact that we've now appended "and then EVERYBODY FUCKING DIES" to the end of the delightful-in-itself Thor: Ragnarok. I'm sure there's a wealth of details to find in a rewatch, but I don't think I can bring myself to go through it again until the sequel is out.
1a) But speaking of punch-the-air moments, HOLY SHIT GROOT CUT OFF HIS OWN ARM TO FORM THE HANDLE FOR STORMBREAKER. That was the most heavy-metal thing in the MCU and it's competing with a hundred-foot fire giant that destroys literal Asgard by stabbing it with a flaming sword.
1b) And speaking of the jokes, even more than that Groot scene I cannot believe they finally paid off Rocket's obsession with getting that one Ravager's prosthetic eye. Whether that was James Gunn working something in or the Russos picking up a thread he left for them... *chef kiss gesture*
2) Looking back at the MCU's long line of Generic Evil Bad Guys Who Will Kick Your Puppy And Steal Lollipops From Babies, it was absolutely the correct movie-writing decision not to make Thanos the death-obsessed nihilist of the comics, and they did a good job coming up with a new motivation for him (albeit one that creates a few plot holes in past entries). Nonetheless, as a Marvel fan whose first good comic was Infinity Gauntlet, who reread those issues until they literally fell apart 10 years later and who was friggin' thrilled to be able to talk with Jim Starlin about the movie at a convention this spring, I'm still let down that we're never going to see that character on the screen.
3) Loved the post-credit scene. I accept that it's utterly opaque to people who aren't obsessing over the movies coming out a year from now, but I nearly shouted in the theater when that starburst logo blinked on. Also, thinking back on it whoever was responsible for that pager should take a bow, because it says a lot about where the Captain Marvel movie is going, and why she hasn't been seen so far (because if she were someplace where she'd hear about aliens invading Earth, she could have traded in her beeper).
4) I'm not too broken up about the imminent reset button. Some form of that has been set up ever since Dr. Strange discovered what the Eye of Agamotto can do, much less when you introduce actual omnipotence into the setting. There's still stakes for the stuff that's not at the super-super-super-cosmic level where all of that comes into play.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:50 AM on May 21, 2018 [9 favorites]
Oh, and 5) I heard beforehand that Infinity War was structured like a comic-book crossover event, but I was still surprised at how true that is. The first 3/4 of the movie practically has issue breaks. That didn't take away from the experience at all for me, but I'm sure opinions vary.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:56 AM on May 21, 2018
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 10:56 AM on May 21, 2018
Yeah, you can just imagine the Infinity War Part One Trade Paperback collecting
Thor #4 - "After Ragnarok...THANOS"
Dr. Strange #2 - Cosmic Chaos in Manhattan
Avengers #3 - Wanda and Vision in a Desperate Battle
Guardians of the Galaxy #3 - Asgardian Roadkill?
Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man #2 - Exiled in Space!
Gamora Special #1 - A Father's Love?
Iron Man #4 - Battle on Titan!
Black Panther #2 - War in Wakanda!
Thor #5 - The Smelting of...Stormbreaker!
Avengers Infinity War Special #1 - Thanos Triumphant
posted by straight at 11:45 AM on May 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
Thor #4 - "After Ragnarok...THANOS"
Dr. Strange #2 - Cosmic Chaos in Manhattan
Avengers #3 - Wanda and Vision in a Desperate Battle
Guardians of the Galaxy #3 - Asgardian Roadkill?
Peter Parker the Spectacular Spider-Man #2 - Exiled in Space!
Gamora Special #1 - A Father's Love?
Iron Man #4 - Battle on Titan!
Black Panther #2 - War in Wakanda!
Thor #5 - The Smelting of...Stormbreaker!
Avengers Infinity War Special #1 - Thanos Triumphant
posted by straight at 11:45 AM on May 21, 2018 [8 favorites]
Also extra comic-booky: not one, but two scenes in which a character suddenly brays in agony as they're impaled from behind.
posted by Iridic at 12:38 PM on May 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by Iridic at 12:38 PM on May 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
But speaking of punch-the-air moments, HOLY SHIT GROOT CUT OFF HIS OWN ARM TO FORM THE HANDLE FOR STORMBREAKER.
Hahaha I forgot about that! I didn't love the movie but I LOVED that moment, it was one of those "very obvious in hindsight, complete surprise in the moment" things. Just perfect! Rocket's hero worship of Thor was also slightly surprising but very appropriate; sometimes the MCU is so predictable that the little things are really necessary for me to enjoy it.
posted by grandiloquiet at 1:09 PM on May 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Hahaha I forgot about that! I didn't love the movie but I LOVED that moment, it was one of those "very obvious in hindsight, complete surprise in the moment" things. Just perfect! Rocket's hero worship of Thor was also slightly surprising but very appropriate; sometimes the MCU is so predictable that the little things are really necessary for me to enjoy it.
posted by grandiloquiet at 1:09 PM on May 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
One other thing that just occurred to me: This is the second time that the MCU has adapted a story where Silver Surfer (whose film rights belong to Fox) played a major role in the narrative, and replaced him with the Hulk. In the original Planet Hulk storyline that was used as fodder for Ragnarok, it was the Surfer who'd been captured on Sakaar and showed up as a surprise opponent in the arena. And in Infinity Gauntlet, Surfer crashes through Dr. Strange's roof to warn him about Thanos.
I'm not sure if that was deliberate, but I like finding those parallels.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:27 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
I'm not sure if that was deliberate, but I like finding those parallels.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 2:27 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
So uh, I saw this on Saturday night, very late to the party. I was actually kind of unsure about whether or not I wanted to see it, because I disliked Age of Ultron so much, and I thought maybe I should just stick to the individual character films. And then I got spoiled, which I always think won't bother me but which I think does end up affecting my experience. So no tears for Spidey, I knew the movie was going to end on a dark cliffhanger (which I actually would have expected anyway since I knew the plan was for another movie.) I was a little emotionally distant from it all, although I did enjoy a more rounded take on the villain than I expected. I had fun, but I wasn't crying or feeling my heart jump in my chest at all.
For me, Peter and Gamora didn't exactly come out of nowhere, but they keep skewing Peter to the slightly just too dumb side - I liked him in the first movie but it's such a narrow tightrope to walk, having him be the stuck-at-twelve-mentally funny dude but also maturing and tackling big father issues and romance. That kind of thing needed to happen in a GotG movie, not in this one. A little more buildup between him and Gamora's relationship, and also more character work for Gamora herself would have been nice. However, little and big Gamora and Thanos were some of my favorite parts.
I very much support Vision and Scarlet Witch shmooping it up but it was difficult to see Vision's life balanced against the army repelling the alien horde.
Iron Man was my gateway in and I still love Tony Stark a whole bunch. I need him to retire and have adorable kids with Pepper.
I was not sold on Benedict Cumberbatch as Dr. Strange originally because I was getting kind of tired of BC. But honestly, I really enjoyed his movie and loved his role here. The aesthetics of how they depict his abilities are so much fun and visually so cool.
posted by PussKillian at 2:31 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
For me, Peter and Gamora didn't exactly come out of nowhere, but they keep skewing Peter to the slightly just too dumb side - I liked him in the first movie but it's such a narrow tightrope to walk, having him be the stuck-at-twelve-mentally funny dude but also maturing and tackling big father issues and romance. That kind of thing needed to happen in a GotG movie, not in this one. A little more buildup between him and Gamora's relationship, and also more character work for Gamora herself would have been nice. However, little and big Gamora and Thanos were some of my favorite parts.
I very much support Vision and Scarlet Witch shmooping it up but it was difficult to see Vision's life balanced against the army repelling the alien horde.
Iron Man was my gateway in and I still love Tony Stark a whole bunch. I need him to retire and have adorable kids with Pepper.
I was not sold on Benedict Cumberbatch as Dr. Strange originally because I was getting kind of tired of BC. But honestly, I really enjoyed his movie and loved his role here. The aesthetics of how they depict his abilities are so much fun and visually so cool.
posted by PussKillian at 2:31 PM on May 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Ooh, also I was very happy with most of the Thor plotline (noble rabbit!) but holy shit, having the Asgardians come right out of their homeworld being destroyed only to be massacred by Thanos was bleaker than I expected. I knew this was going to be a heavy body count film, but I hope the rewind goes back further than just undoing the dust deaths.
posted by PussKillian at 2:35 PM on May 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by PussKillian at 2:35 PM on May 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Why not plop them down in Kansas, while Dust in the Wind plays backwards?
posted by Pronoiac at 5:37 PM on May 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by Pronoiac at 5:37 PM on May 21, 2018 [3 favorites]
Hey now, this could be Asgard.
I say we give them everything north of Bangor Maine
posted by The Whelk at 5:57 PM on May 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
I say we give them everything north of Bangor Maine
posted by The Whelk at 5:57 PM on May 21, 2018 [2 favorites]
Now that the nuanced discussion is dying down, I present to you all a curated list of tumblr Infinity War related lolz and shitposts. All links go to my own reblogs in the interests of avoiding linkrot when people inevitably rename their blogs.
So John Mulaney's latest special Kid Gorgeous came out the same weekend as Infinity War, and this has led to some highly amusing crossovers, partly just because it led to the amusing juxtaposition of "john mulaney spoilers" and "infinity war spoilers" on some people's dashboards. Also because some of the characters in Infinity War really needed some STREET SMARTS. Also this is 1000% definitely what Bucky Barnes was thinking while "fighting monsters in a formerly secret african country surrounded by an holographic forcefield spinning a talking racoon with a gun who just came down a rainbow with a buff caped dude with a lightning axe and a sentient tree."
Did you get one look at Bucky Barnes aka Winter Soldier aka White Wolf in the Black Panther credit sequence, and think, "hmmm, looking real white Jesus-y there, buddy!" Yeah, fandom thought so too. Imagine you are a Snaptured Peter Parker waking up in the afterlife/Soul Stone only to be faced with that.
Where was Hawkeye? Probably about to have a real weird and bad day.
Why T'Challa really should have saved Erik Killmonger's life in Black Panther. A murder cousin would've come in real handy during Infinity War.
This one isn't funny, it's just tear-inducing: gifset of Hamilton lyrics + the Snaptured. There are, of course, many more tragic and weepy gifsets of our dearly (probably temporarily) departed Snaptured heroes, this is just my current favorite.
Palate cleanser: a visual representation of why one of my tumblr tags for this movie is Infinity Beard.
posted by yasaman at 3:55 PM on May 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
So John Mulaney's latest special Kid Gorgeous came out the same weekend as Infinity War, and this has led to some highly amusing crossovers, partly just because it led to the amusing juxtaposition of "john mulaney spoilers" and "infinity war spoilers" on some people's dashboards. Also because some of the characters in Infinity War really needed some STREET SMARTS. Also this is 1000% definitely what Bucky Barnes was thinking while "fighting monsters in a formerly secret african country surrounded by an holographic forcefield spinning a talking racoon with a gun who just came down a rainbow with a buff caped dude with a lightning axe and a sentient tree."
Did you get one look at Bucky Barnes aka Winter Soldier aka White Wolf in the Black Panther credit sequence, and think, "hmmm, looking real white Jesus-y there, buddy!" Yeah, fandom thought so too. Imagine you are a Snaptured Peter Parker waking up in the afterlife/Soul Stone only to be faced with that.
Where was Hawkeye? Probably about to have a real weird and bad day.
Why T'Challa really should have saved Erik Killmonger's life in Black Panther. A murder cousin would've come in real handy during Infinity War.
This one isn't funny, it's just tear-inducing: gifset of Hamilton lyrics + the Snaptured. There are, of course, many more tragic and weepy gifsets of our dearly (probably temporarily) departed Snaptured heroes, this is just my current favorite.
Palate cleanser: a visual representation of why one of my tumblr tags for this movie is Infinity Beard.
posted by yasaman at 3:55 PM on May 22, 2018 [7 favorites]
Greg 'Arthritis Host Organism' Stolze: Now that I've digested my INFINITY WAR reactions, I think my favorite part is how it provides a clean, no-fuss way for Netflix to get rid of IRON FIST.
posted by happyroach at 12:14 AM on May 23, 2018 [12 favorites]
posted by happyroach at 12:14 AM on May 23, 2018 [12 favorites]
> Rocket's hero worship of Thor was also slightly surprising but very appropriate; sometimes the MCU is so predictable that the little things are really necessary for me to enjoy it.
Thor is from a world where he has a nephew that is an eight legged horse via his adopted brother. A noble rabbit is not an insult and in fact is just Thor just accepting Rocket for who he is without any compunctions around it being weird or strange.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:43 AM on May 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Thor is from a world where he has a nephew that is an eight legged horse via his adopted brother. A noble rabbit is not an insult and in fact is just Thor just accepting Rocket for who he is without any compunctions around it being weird or strange.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:43 AM on May 24, 2018 [5 favorites]
Plus, in Ragnarok it was established that Thor himself was a frog.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:54 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:54 AM on May 24, 2018 [3 favorites]
That was one of my favorite moments in Ragnarok! That it even remembered FrogThor.
posted by politikitty at 12:46 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by politikitty at 12:46 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Chapter 2: Are you now or have you ever been a member of HYDRA?
posted by The Whelk at 11:12 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 11:12 PM on May 24, 2018 [1 favorite]
Why T'Challa really should have saved Erik Killmonger's life in Black Panther
Eh, it was Thor who tipped the scales, I doubt Killmonger would have added much, accept probably attempting another coup. Plus he was more interested in dying than living for something.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:11 AM on May 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
Eh, it was Thor who tipped the scales, I doubt Killmonger would have added much, accept probably attempting another coup. Plus he was more interested in dying than living for something.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:11 AM on May 25, 2018 [2 favorites]
> Why T'Challa really should have saved Erik Killmonger's life in Black Panther. A murder cousin would've come in real handy during Infinity War.
And T'Challa offered to save him - it was Killmonger who pulled the blade out to end his own life, it was one of the most powerful scenes in the movie.
Also the whole holding someone against their will for your own purposes thing
posted by mrzarquon at 12:27 PM on May 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
And T'Challa offered to save him - it was Killmonger who pulled the blade out to end his own life, it was one of the most powerful scenes in the movie.
Also the whole holding someone against their will for your own purposes thing
posted by mrzarquon at 12:27 PM on May 25, 2018 [1 favorite]
Well, he would have slaughtered millions, so I'm convinced he should have lost.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:09 PM on May 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:09 PM on May 26, 2018 [5 favorites]
I couldn't help but think a few machine guns and overlapping fields of fire would have helped deal with the swarms coming through the shield over Wakanda. It would certainly be more effective than hand to hand fighting.
posted by knapah at 12:56 PM on May 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by knapah at 12:56 PM on May 27, 2018 [2 favorites]
Or just alternating turning the shields off and on, to deal with the horde.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:46 PM on May 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:46 PM on May 27, 2018 [4 favorites]
Chaoter 3: or, are Coups like, ALWAYS bad?
posted by The Whelk at 10:31 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by The Whelk at 10:31 PM on May 28, 2018 [2 favorites]
Whelk's chapters have surpassed The Wasp & Ant-man in my release enthuseasm
posted by phearlez at 7:59 AM on May 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by phearlez at 7:59 AM on May 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
Just watched for the first time and I'm surprised i didn't' see this in the comments yet. I seem to be the only one in the theater who laughed when Eitri (Peter Dinklage) told Thor to "Hold the door!" (when trying to melt metal at the forge)?
Possible GOT spoiler so don't google it if you haven't seen season 6...
posted by danapiper at 9:32 AM on May 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
Possible GOT spoiler so don't google it if you haven't seen season 6...
posted by danapiper at 9:32 AM on May 29, 2018 [5 favorites]
The American Century: Chapter 4: Electoral, or wait ...you LIKE Nixon?
posted by The Whelk at 10:58 PM on May 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by The Whelk at 10:58 PM on May 29, 2018 [1 favorite]
i want to live in the whelk's timeline
posted by entropicamericana at 8:17 AM on June 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by entropicamericana at 8:17 AM on June 2, 2018 [1 favorite]
So do all the people who were in Infinity War. Sadly, due to studio licensing rights, none of them had a Doomlock and so they don't get to.
posted by phearlez at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2018
posted by phearlez at 11:17 AM on June 2, 2018
You think Thanos could have used all that power to check for flaws in his plan, but no....
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:13 PM on June 3, 2018
posted by GenjiandProust at 1:13 PM on June 3, 2018
TV Tropes lists the last words of many characters in the film under their Avengers Infinity War: Quotes page:
"Allfathers, let the dark magic flow through me one last time..."
— Heimdall
"You... will never be... a god."
— Loki to Thanos, as the latter strangles him to death
"No. This isn't love. No! NO!"
— Gamora
"You saved nothing. Your powers are inconsequential compared to mine."
— Ebony Maw, shortly before being Thrown Out the Airlock
"Guys, we've got a Vision situation here!"
— Sam Wilson
"It's all right. It's all right. I love you."
— Vision, to Wanda
"NO!"
— Wanda Maximoff
"Steve...?"
— Bucky Barnes
"Up, general, up! This is no place to die."
— T'Challa, to Okoye
"I... am... Groot..." [Translation: "Dad"]
— Groot, to Rocket
"Something is happening."
— Mantis
"Quill...?"
— Drax
"Oh, man."
— Peter Quill
"Tony... there was no other way."
— Doctor Stephen Strange
"Mister Stark? I don’t feel so good... I don't know what's- I don't- I don't know what's happening! I don't wanna go, I don't wanna go sir, please. Please, I don't wanna go. I don't wanna go... I'm sorry."
— Peter Parker
"Nick...?"
— Maria Hill
"Oh, no. Motherf-"
— Nick Fury
posted by zarq at 8:42 PM on June 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
"Allfathers, let the dark magic flow through me one last time..."
— Heimdall
"You... will never be... a god."
— Loki to Thanos, as the latter strangles him to death
"No. This isn't love. No! NO!"
— Gamora
"You saved nothing. Your powers are inconsequential compared to mine."
— Ebony Maw, shortly before being Thrown Out the Airlock
"Guys, we've got a Vision situation here!"
— Sam Wilson
"It's all right. It's all right. I love you."
— Vision, to Wanda
"NO!"
— Wanda Maximoff
"Steve...?"
— Bucky Barnes
"Up, general, up! This is no place to die."
— T'Challa, to Okoye
"I... am... Groot..." [Translation: "Dad"]
— Groot, to Rocket
"Something is happening."
— Mantis
"Quill...?"
— Drax
"Oh, man."
— Peter Quill
"Tony... there was no other way."
— Doctor Stephen Strange
"Mister Stark? I don’t feel so good... I don't know what's- I don't- I don't know what's happening! I don't wanna go, I don't wanna go sir, please. Please, I don't wanna go. I don't wanna go... I'm sorry."
— Peter Parker
"Nick...?"
— Maria Hill
"Oh, no. Motherf-"
— Nick Fury
posted by zarq at 8:42 PM on June 3, 2018 [5 favorites]
Fuck 'em, they're assholes.
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:04 AM on June 7, 2018
posted by Halloween Jack at 8:04 AM on June 7, 2018
I really liked Ebony Maw, in comparison to the other two. He stood out more and had better lines. I was really disappointed when he died.
posted by nubs at 11:15 AM on June 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by nubs at 11:15 AM on June 8, 2018 [3 favorites]
He had personality and a reason for his actions.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:32 AM on June 8, 2018
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:32 AM on June 8, 2018
Maw's final line is notable mainly as the prompt for Tony's response. ("Yeah, but the kid's seen more movies.")
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:39 AM on June 8, 2018
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 11:39 AM on June 8, 2018
https://www.reddit.com/r/thanosdidnothingwrong/
Representative post.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:00 AM on June 9, 2018
Representative post.
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:00 AM on June 9, 2018
I really liked Ebony Maw, in comparison to the other two. He stood out more and had better lines.
He also flew around NYC standing on a magic tornado like he was a goofy silver age character, which I very much appreciated.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:36 AM on June 9, 2018 [8 favorites]
He also flew around NYC standing on a magic tornado like he was a goofy silver age character, which I very much appreciated.
posted by jason_steakums at 9:36 AM on June 9, 2018 [8 favorites]
... All of the Asgardians are killed by Thanos at the beginning of the movie. But if Thor derives his power from Asgard, or rather it’s people, then how does he still have powers later in the movie?
posted by P.o.B. at 10:34 PM on June 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by P.o.B. at 10:34 PM on June 13, 2018 [1 favorite]
Thor isn't the only Asgardian left.
Russo confirmed Valkyrie did survive Thanos’ ambush. The director did not say how, but he did say a portion of the Asgardians also survived. Russo said escape pods ferried those survivors away from the battle, giving the Asgardian race the chance to escape extinction. It is very possible the Valkyrie was charged with overseeing that evacuation since most of the Asgardian refugees were simple civilians.posted by lesser weasel at 11:07 PM on June 13, 2018 [3 favorites]
It took 48 days, but Variety is reporting that Avengers Infinity War has hit the $2 BILLION mark in box office takings:
posted by Faintdreams at 2:12 PM on June 18, 2018
posted by Faintdreams at 2:12 PM on June 18, 2018
Is that before or after Thanos takes his cut?
posted by nubs at 2:15 PM on June 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
posted by nubs at 2:15 PM on June 18, 2018 [3 favorites]
Disappointed in the ending, wanted to see a shot of Rocket walking away with Buckies super Arm over his shoulder muttering with a secret grin, "sucks to be dust".
posted by sammyo at 8:17 AM on July 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 8:17 AM on July 14, 2018 [4 favorites]
The digital version is out, and the Russos' commentary directly addresses the "why didn't Thanos just use omnipotence to fix resource scarcity" question -- IMO in exactly the right way:
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:11 AM on August 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
"People have asked us why Thanos didn't just use the Stones to double the resources in the universe. Clearly, he is not... he was told 'no' to an idea that he had, that he felt was the only solution, and then was proved right to himself when that solution was not acted upon. So his messianic complex, he is now committed to following through on the idea he had many, many years ago. He's not a stable--although he appears stable at times--he is not a stable individual."That's via a transcript posted at GameSpot.
posted by Holy Zarquon's Singing Fish at 9:11 AM on August 5, 2018 [3 favorites]
On Point for Thanos at SNL: I love this SNL segment, especially how it rolls into a deeply inappropriate crush. Heidi Gardner is amazing.
posted by uberchet at 6:10 AM on August 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by uberchet at 6:10 AM on August 6, 2018 [2 favorites]
So one thing I noted, watching the film again this weekend, is that there is a real parallel between how Loki pulls the Space Stone from where ever he had hidden it in response to Thanos threatening to kill Thor, and how Strange pulls the Time Stone out in response to Thanos getting ready to kill Stark.
I have no idea if that means anything beyond the fact that both characters use magic and so used similar methods to try to conceal the Stones, but it felt like maybe it was supposed to be significant in some way.
posted by nubs at 12:11 PM on August 7, 2018
I have no idea if that means anything beyond the fact that both characters use magic and so used similar methods to try to conceal the Stones, but it felt like maybe it was supposed to be significant in some way.
posted by nubs at 12:11 PM on August 7, 2018
If that means Thanos 2: even more thanos-ier includes Loki and Strange magicking around the cosmos fixing things with the time stone, well thats a whole new level of snarky buddy film I could watch.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:37 PM on August 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
posted by mrzarquon at 9:37 PM on August 7, 2018 [6 favorites]
Now I wish Alan Rickman was still alive for a trifecta of dry British snark.
posted by mrzarquon at 9:42 PM on August 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
posted by mrzarquon at 9:42 PM on August 7, 2018 [2 favorites]
Loki and Strange magicking around the cosmos fixing things with the time stone, well thats a whole new level of snarky buddy film I could watch.
That sounds better than any of the other post-Phase 3 ideas for the MCU that I'm aware of.
posted by nubs at 1:44 PM on August 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
That sounds better than any of the other post-Phase 3 ideas for the MCU that I'm aware of.
posted by nubs at 1:44 PM on August 8, 2018 [2 favorites]
Truth. It also really hurt that everyone was being their best heroic selves and they failed anyway. Nobody* got derailed by petty grudges or interpersonal squabbles, nobody refused to give aid, everybody threw themselves on the grenade to protect the people they love, and it was all for nothing.
True, that is what happened in this movie, but because of the previous movies, this one started out with the Avengers Not Assembled. The original Avengers face Thanos in separated groups and lose each time. (And I subscribe to the theory Hulk refuses to come out because Banner's back on Earth where Everybody Hates the Hulk.)
So I'm guessing that in Avengers 4, an Avengers team goes back in time to various points in the previous movies and change things so that when the Avengers face Thanos they have the original six being their best heroic selves together and win.
posted by straight at 12:23 PM on January 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
True, that is what happened in this movie, but because of the previous movies, this one started out with the Avengers Not Assembled. The original Avengers face Thanos in separated groups and lose each time. (And I subscribe to the theory Hulk refuses to come out because Banner's back on Earth where Everybody Hates the Hulk.)
So I'm guessing that in Avengers 4, an Avengers team goes back in time to various points in the previous movies and change things so that when the Avengers face Thanos they have the original six being their best heroic selves together and win.
posted by straight at 12:23 PM on January 2, 2019 [3 favorites]
I haven't seen the film, but I assume the Snapture here on Earth affected only human beings, rather than making half of all the other creatures disappear too? Or did half the dogs, cats, dolphins, chimps, bees, bacteria and plant life etc also turn to ash? What would happen if half the bacteria in your body turned to ash but the rest of you didn't? Would it be fatal?
Gotta be careful about wishes. If the snap wiped out half the life in the universe at complete random, then it would be an unnoticeable change. If each living organism in the universe counts as one life, then on average the universe is pretty well nothing but bacteria and all Thanos did was wipe out 50% of the bacteria in the universe. Things should be back to normal within 6 to 24 hours after the snap.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:42 AM on January 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Gotta be careful about wishes. If the snap wiped out half the life in the universe at complete random, then it would be an unnoticeable change. If each living organism in the universe counts as one life, then on average the universe is pretty well nothing but bacteria and all Thanos did was wipe out 50% of the bacteria in the universe. Things should be back to normal within 6 to 24 hours after the snap.
posted by fimbulvetr at 8:42 AM on January 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
Mildly disappointed that nobody ever confuses the glowing thing on Iron Man's chest for an infinity stone.
posted by ckape at 7:05 PM on January 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by ckape at 7:05 PM on January 15, 2019 [2 favorites]
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posted by Homo neanderthalensis at 11:01 PM on April 24, 2018