Hawkeye: So This Is Christmas
December 22, 2021 4:01 AM - Season 1, Episode 6 - Subscribe

Everything is tied up in a neat bow, of sorts.
posted by cendawanita (78 comments total) 5 users marked this as a favorite
 
Stay past the credits for the Rogers musical number in full.
posted by cendawanita at 4:03 AM on December 22, 2021 [9 favorites]


You can't fool me Marvel ! Kingpin isn't killed that easily.
posted by Pendragon at 5:03 AM on December 22, 2021 [21 favorites]


It will take way more than shooting with an arrow, running down with a car, repeatedly punching, blowing up, (maybe) electrocuting, and then shooting with a regular bullet to keep Kingpin down!

The episodes directed by Bert and Bertie (3, 4 and 5) were way better than the ones by Rhys Thomas.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 5:16 AM on December 22, 2021 [13 favorites]


Oh god is that why? I was wondering if i was dead inside from the local natural disaster befalling my region this week for my lack of reaction to what is ostensibly a very competently wrapped finale episode.
posted by cendawanita at 5:18 AM on December 22, 2021 [1 favorite]


(i mean, i could also be dead inside but i just retested with another show, and i think it's this episode.)
posted by cendawanita at 5:19 AM on December 22, 2021


Yeah, I don't believe they'd bring Kingpin back to only kill him off-screen.

This was surprisingly violent (although in a particularly bloodless way) for an MCU show. I'm really wondering how many of the tracksuit guys they killed.

I do think this was a bit rushed, certainly -- I feel like certain plot points were really under-developed, but I suppose (I hope?) they'll come back to them with later shows (maybe all the stuff with Kate's mom will feature in She-Hulk. I don't know).

I do think this mostly worked, though, and I had fun. I wish they hadn't made such a big deal about the watch and then the reveal was "yeah, OK, we saw that coming." Maybe there's something else to it.

This was fun on its own but I do feel like most of it was sort of transitional -- a setup for what's going to be next, rather than something that can be enjoyed on its own.
posted by edencosmic at 5:40 AM on December 22, 2021 [1 favorite]


With the way that the Kingpin was presented (white suits? Hawaiian shirts?), I thought they were making it clear he wasn't Daredevil's Kingpin but maybe they really are writing him out of the MCU because it's hard to balance local crime lord with Avengers-level superheroes? Not that they didn't do it in the comics.
posted by kokaku at 6:13 AM on December 22, 2021


what is ostensibly a very competently wrapped finale episode.

Eh, I'm glad there's nothing from Marvel on the horizon, 'cause this finale felt pretty underwhelming and I'm stuffed with superhero tropes at the moment. Mostly it boiled down to a lot of dull fighting, with little of the emotional or character building depths from previous episodes.

Kingpin now has superpowers, what with ripping off a car door and surviving all the attacks, WTH?!

Track Suit Bros were just stunning incompetent and not in a amusing way. That time could have used for more emotional beats.

Maya was odd, what with believing the guy she was wanted to kill and who had killed her father. Then she wants to run off with the guy who helped arrange her father's murder, what? The character appears completely uninteresting at this point but has a series coming up, which sounds all sorts of NO, GIVE IT TO YELENA.

Kate seemed pretty out of character or subdued, except for the elevator scene.

Yes, the elevator scene was pure gold, hands down, no question. More of that please.

Yelena confronting Hawkeye was drastically short. Having been snapped and brought back, and knowing the story of aliens invading the Earth not once but twice, there's probably at lot Yelena could believe at this point. Or at least freaking ask. After all, she's on a vengeance quest, wouldn't you want to know how sister died? She walked away a bit too easily, IMO.

Hawkeye just showing up on Christmas Day, with no recriminations from kids or family? None of the kids reproaching him for missing holiday movie night or any of the other traditions they had planned?

The Larpers as assistants tried to be humorous but it just didn't work, felt very forced. They're all firefighters and cops, should they know how to handle a panicked crowd? Or at least one or two of them?

I could go on, but you get the drift. The finale was plot driven to hit certain narrative points, but largely lacked the emotional and character depth to really land those points. It's a common problem with superhero stories, which Marvel has done better with here and there, but mostly it's still a matter of punching things to fix things, which is boring.

Unexpected delight: Jack as a good guy, helping out with sword skills. He was marvelously campy and I look forward to future appearances with him and his larping gang.

C- for this episode and B for the series. Would have been an A for the series if they had stuck the landing.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:52 AM on December 22, 2021 [7 favorites]


I loved it, especially the Kate + Yelena sequence.
I like how they show you Kate coming into her own in the fight against the bros.
Needed more pizza dog.
posted by signal at 10:06 AM on December 22, 2021 [6 favorites]


If (like me) you went "uhhh, what?" with the watch reveal and Kingpin's apparent superpowers, this article did a good job summing up what that stuff means.
posted by arcolz at 11:19 AM on December 22, 2021 [8 favorites]


None of the kids reproaching him for missing holiday movie night or any of the other traditions they had planned?

Maybe if Clint had a secret identity, but these kids know their dad is an Avenger. Plus he brought home Pizza Dog! Clint and Laura raised their kids better than to see the world's best dog and start complaining he wasn't there to watch Santa Clause 3.
posted by Gary at 1:38 PM on December 22, 2021 [14 favorites]


About the watch and that article: I hope they don't take Agents of SHIELD out of continuity!
posted by Pronoiac at 2:17 PM on December 22, 2021


Even if the kids hadn't known about Dad's job, a surprise golden retriever buys a lot of forgiveness.

I think that this may have seemed underwhelming after the Spidey movie, but I thought that it was a good wrap-up, especially with Yelena. The main bits that I wanted resolved that weren't were the stuff with Kate's mom ("Your dad had some mob debts" seems pretty underwhelming), and some hints WRT the probable Young Avengers/Avengers Mk. II would have been nice. And I really hope that Yelena doesn't just get shuffled off; Pugh is still the MVP of the series IMO. I was a bit startled by Jack's heel-face turn, but it was fun and Tony Dalton still has the chance for plenty of badness (and badassery) in Better Call Saul. Maybe some of the remaining loose ends will get wrapped up in the Echo series.
posted by Halloween Jack at 2:17 PM on December 22, 2021 [3 favorites]


The only way Kingpin is dead is if D'Onofrio doesn't want to do the part anymore. I kinda doubt that's the case. But yeah, if he's on board, he's solid gold and there's zero reason to get rid of him. (The same could be said for literally everyone from Netflix who didn't play Danny Rand.)

Everything Yelena & Kate was wonderful, from the dialogue to the fight stuff & especially how Yelena clearly didn't want to hurt her. I really hope they become a Hawkeye & Widow duo going forward. Echo was also wonderful, as was Fisk. And from about the moment Jack interrupted Kate & Eleanor to ask what was going on, I was fully on board with whatever they did with him--surprise uber-baddie, face-turn, clueless douche, I didn't care.

Anyway if Marvel/Disney don't market Trust A Bro merch, they're insane.
posted by scaryblackdeath at 2:22 PM on December 22, 2021 [13 favorites]


Marvel's understanding of how to market their merch is unbelievably bad; I gripe about this with my friends all the time. They have left so much on the table because they truly do not grasp their audience, so I have a feeling that if they do finally figure out what to do with Trust A Bro, it won't be better than what fans are likely to come up with.

I don't know, I enjoyed this finale. Even with its flaws, it was the best ending they've come up with yet for their series, and Hailee Steinfeld really sold Kate's confusion and pain in the first half for me. Plus there was a holiday-music montage of making dangerous arrows (complete with labelmaker labels!). I just love Jack, I don't care what they do with him--he's sleazy and hilarious and I just find him wonderful. Loved the Bro thanking Katie-Kate for her help before she takes him out. But I will never understand the love for Kingpin, he's such an abhorrent, brutal, hyperviolent thug and so for me, that part of the story was the least interesting. I'd have actually enjoyed seeing more Bros instead; they were a little shortchanged. The watch MacGuffin was meh, but totally expected.

Sad for Maya, but since we know we'll get to see more of her, I'm okay with the story ending a little unsatisfactorily. Everyone seemed convinced Eleanor would be Madame Masque, but I'm honestly relieved she wasn't. For me the best part of this show has been some of the...I'm not sure what the word is I'm looking for, but I felt they took some of the jaded spoiled rich girl aspect of comics Kate and made it a little more like what Clint called her ridiculous overconfidence mixed with a more earnest, very young (though not naive) outlook. At first it was strange, but I came to really love that about this version of the character, and following along with her, and seeing Clint kind of rediscover a little bit of himself through her, was just wonderful.

I am really sorry that it's over. But I guess we'll always have Rogers: The Musical.
posted by kitten kaboodle at 3:24 PM on December 22, 2021 [8 favorites]


Marvel's understanding of how to market their merch is unbelievably bad; I gripe about this with my friends all the time. They have left so much on the table because they truly do not grasp their audience, so I have a feeling that if they do finally figure out what to do with Trust A Bro, it won't be better than what fans are likely to come up with.

I've already ordered a fan made Trust a Bro shirt from TeePublic. It will probably be better than something official because it won't have any Marvel or Disney+ logos on it anywhere.

I enjoyed this finale pretty well. Yelena and Kate are gold and I hope to see more of that duo in the future.

With the way that the Kingpin was presented (white suits? Hawaiian shirts?), I thought they were making it clear he wasn't Daredevil's Kingpin but maybe they really are writing him out of the MCU because it's hard to balance local crime lord with Avengers-level superheroes?

Not sure what you mean here. Kingpin wore a white suit in the Daredevil Season 3 finale for his wedding, as well as that being A Look of his in the comics since forever.

I chuckled at the full length Save the City performance, but my 10 year old noped out of that.

I really had hoped there would be an after credits stinger with Kingpin having survived. Oh well.
posted by Fleebnork at 4:44 PM on December 22, 2021 [3 favorites]


With the way that the Kingpin was presented (white suits? Hawaiian shirts?)

I saw on twitter this was his outfit from Amazing Spider-Man: Family Business. Not sure if there's anything noteworthy about that or if production just thought it was a good look.
posted by Gary at 4:59 PM on December 22, 2021 [2 favorites]


They're all firefighters and cops, should they know how to handle a panicked crowd? Or at least one or two of them?

god, no. The NYPD? If only.
posted by fomhar at 5:29 PM on December 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


Just based on the "sometimes family doesn't see eye to eye" line, I predict Kingpin will have an eyepatch the next time we see him.
posted by detachd at 6:14 PM on December 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


"Is this what heroes do? Arrest their mothers on Christmas?" Cracked. Me. Up.

The rest was fine, glad Barton got home for Christmas and Lucky got a happy ending.

Really enjoyed Tony Dalton's delivery of the "I think I missed something" line after Kate and Eleanor ran off, as well as his sword fighting and his banter with the kid who wants his wine collection. Why did he bring that sword to the holiday party tho, he is really dedicated to the whole sword guy thing I guess.

Florence Pugh was great again. Did she decide to hit a salon while she was in NYC? That braid was gorgeous but seems like it would be hard to do oneself.
posted by the primroses were over at 7:54 PM on December 22, 2021 [5 favorites]


One presumes the Red Room has an entire course on self-hairstyling.
posted by axiom at 8:14 PM on December 22, 2021 [6 favorites]


I'm really wondering how many of the tracksuit guys they killed.

There was a very noticeable shot from above where every single tracksuit guy in frame was obviously told "writhe a little so it's clear that despite the fact that you all got shot with or otherwise concussed by very dangerous arrows you are merely wounded and stunned, not dead."
posted by escabeche at 9:17 PM on December 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


Florence Pugh was great, but the end would have been so much better if instead of her coming to trust Hawkeye's story because of a whistle, she gives him the hand up, he says "I loved her too, I'm glad you understand that now," and she says, "no, I still think you're a liar who killed my sister or at best let her die, but I just saw Eleanor Bishop get led off by the cops and I don't kill people for free."
posted by escabeche at 9:19 PM on December 22, 2021 [18 favorites]


If (like me) you went "uhhh, what?" with the watch reveal and Kingpin's apparent superpowers, this article did a good job summing up what that stuff means.

Aha I'm allowing myself a smidge of satisfaction that my expectation of a backdoor mockingbird retcon came true. Other than that, i feel like my first rewatch is going to be focused on Yelena's part of the plot. Not sure how she does it, since everyone gets the same writing but the moment Pugh arrived it's like the energy meter gets a jolt.
posted by cendawanita at 9:32 PM on December 22, 2021


I laughed so hard, I enjoyed so much.
* Yelena and Kate, just everything, again, so adorbs.
* Clint in a tree.
* The random cute CGI owl in the tree.
* "Timber..."
* The random cute CGI owl randomly flies off with a shrunk bus(?) of people(?).
* Jack JUST HAPPENS TO CARRY A RAPIER AROUND LIKE HE'S GOT SWORDSPACE (or as my friends called it while watching Highlander, "k-space") and starts happily fighting. How did he have that in his outfit?! Was it partly down his pants?!
* LARPers
* Having your mom arrested on Christmas?
* THE FULL ON MUSICAL WAS SO AWESOME. Were we supposed to know who the random suit guy and random doctor singing were though? Why did they get lead singing duties at the start?
* "I brought home two strays."

....Yeah, nthing the "if you didn't see him die, somehow he's not dead" for Kingpin. I was actually surprised he knew ASL, though.
I continue to be kinda baffled at the "I love my underlings but I am totally kewl with killing them" attitude, though.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:53 PM on December 22, 2021 [4 favorites]


As a Canadian, I call bull on that whole skating rink scene. There was no way that some of those moves didn't result in slips and falls. I don't care if they are superheroes, you just don't move on ice the same way you do on dry ground.

Also, why did the tree lights remain lit after the tree crashed? I'm certain the plug would have been yanked. At the very least, the bulbs would have smashed.
posted by sardonyx at 9:57 PM on December 22, 2021


Bah, Humbug to the haters. This was a great ending.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:31 PM on December 22, 2021 [15 favorites]


Loved the series, loved the finale, and no way Kingpin is dead. I'll be interested to see if this is the Netflix Fisk, or a new Fisk from the Sacred Timeline. It certainly seems like he's had a few upgrades since we saw him last, but don't forget that even in the "more grounded" Netflix series, he gets a closet full of bulletproof tailored suits pretty early on, and smashes through walls like the Kool Aid Man. It's not super strength; he's just that full of hate. Make Mine D'Onofrio!

Needed more pizza dog.

This is my only real complaint about this series. I love the issue of the comic where he gets the lead role, and sniffs his way to saving the day. I was hoping the show would attempt something as inventive with its Lucky. But maybe Pizza Dog will return.

Sure seems like we're heading towards some sort of Young Avengers vs. Dark Avengers situation, long term. Count me among those hoping for Kate + Yelena = Super Best Friends Forever.
posted by EatTheWeek at 1:21 AM on December 23, 2021 [7 favorites]


> Were we supposed to know who the random suit guy and random doctor singing were though?

My time to shine: all of the lore goes over my head, but I recognized Adam Pascal (the first singer) when I wasn’t even in the room—he’d be recognizable to most theater kids of a certain age because he had a lead role in the original cast of Rent. I looked up the second singer, Ty Taylor, thinking he might be another Easter egg that I wasn’t enough of a theater kid to catch; he’s been in a few things but nothing I knew well.
posted by tchemgrrl at 4:42 AM on December 23, 2021 [1 favorite]


Were we supposed to know who the random suit guy and random doctor singing were though?

Random suit guy might be Phil Coulson, while doctor might be Bruce Banner.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:27 AM on December 23, 2021 [1 favorite]


Jack JUST HAPPENS TO CARRY A RAPIER AROUND LIKE HE'S GOT SWORDSPACE (or as my friends called it while watching Highlander, "k-space") and starts happily fighting. How did he have that in his outfit?! Was it partly down his pants?!

He was wearing it openly at the party. Kate made comments about it to Clint.

Random Suit Guy and Random Doctor are just the People in Your Neighborhood civilians of the city singing about the Avengers coming to help them. That’s all.
posted by Fleebnork at 5:55 AM on December 23, 2021 [9 favorites]


I liked this series a lot, and thought the conclusion was fine. My biggest gripes are that I dont think the emotional conclusion quite landed.

I felt like Maya was cheated a little there. At the start, when we revealed that Ronin killed her father, I wondered how they would resolve that. I am not super impressed with how they did. Clint confesses, tells her he was sent by kingpin and then threatens her and heads off. I mean, sure Maya can be mad at kingpin, but Clint did kill her father, and I dont know if that was fully resolved for me.

I also felt like, and this a slightly more minor gripe, that if you didn't really know who Kingpin was he was a bit under introduced. I actually think a little more of a running plot of him throughout the season could have worked well.

All in all though, this has been a lot of fun, and the introduction of Kate was very successful
posted by Cannon Fodder at 7:07 AM on December 23, 2021 [2 favorites]


Jack and the black female larper have identities in the comics, so they’ll show up again somewhere.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:09 AM on December 23, 2021


> Were we supposed to know who the random suit guy and random doctor singing were though?

My time to shine: all of the lore goes over my head, but I recognized Adam Pascal (the first singer) when I wasn’t even in the room—he’d be recognizable to most theater kids of a certain age because he had a lead role in the original cast of Rent. I looked up the second singer, Ty Taylor, thinking he might be another Easter egg that I wasn’t enough of a theater kid to catch; he’s been in a few things but nothing I knew well.


I think the question referred more to "what character were they meant to be playing in-universe" as opposed to "who were the actors who were portraying those people".

And as for what character, I chalked them up to be "Random Ordinary New York Citizen Nos. 1 and 2".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:37 AM on December 23, 2021 [1 favorite]


I think Phil Coulson is an excellent guess, actually. Wasn't sure on the doctor--I originally did think Bruce but then the Hulk shows up later, so.... But yes, I was asking "are they seriously giving this much singing to total nobodies who aren't characters?"
posted by jenfullmoon at 10:50 AM on December 23, 2021


They're all firefighters and cops, should they know how to handle a panicked crowd? Or at least one or two of them?

The point the show was trying to make was that out of uniform, people didn't take them seriously. Civilians don't follow directions from civilians. On the one hand, this is all about Hawkeye getting a uniform, leveling up and being taken more seriously as A Hero. On the other, I guess we're supposed to think they would have been more respected in their Police and Firefighter uniforms? YMMV.
posted by crossoverman at 12:38 PM on December 23, 2021


Well, this was my second favourite Disney+/MCU show after WandaVision. I thought it was a great ending. Love an action sequence where everyone has their own agenda. And we keep learning about our characters, even as shit is getting blown up and the Rockerfeller Plaza Christmas tree is being demolished.

For the record:
- WandaVision
- Hawkeye
- Falcon and the Winter Soldier
- Loki
posted by crossoverman at 12:42 PM on December 23, 2021 [1 favorite]


> "But yes, I was asking 'are they seriously giving this much singing to total nobodies who aren't characters?'"

It makes more sense in the full context of Rogers: The Musical, in which "bystander" characters are used as a sort of running Greek Chorus to comment upon the events from an outside perspective. In previous scenes, the same performers appeared as scientists, USO dancers, and Howlin' Commandos, and in later scenes they come back as Sokovians, citizens in various locations during the "Snap", etc.

To be honest, it doesn't work all that well as a motif, and the musical certainly doesn't hold up for the whole four-hour runtime -- bear in mind that "Save the City" isn't even the Act I closer or anything; that's maybe halfway through the first act you're looking at there. I won't say it didn't have its highlights ("Winter Soldier" segueing into a reprise of "Cap 'N Bucky" was particularly effective), but overall it wasn't worth the ticket price.
posted by kyrademon at 2:03 PM on December 23, 2021 [25 favorites]


I didn’t think they could stick the landing but they did much better than I thought. And they had time for an A-Team/McGyver “let’s cobble together an arsenal” bonding sequence. The chemistry between Kate and Ylena could power a half-dozen films, just great casting.

And that post-credits sequence was a gift to all MCU fans/theater kids. There are dozens of us. Dozens!
posted by fifteen schnitzengruben is my limit at 2:10 PM on December 23, 2021 [2 favorites]


kyrademon, where is this whole 4 hour musical information? (Or um, just a joke you made up? Probably that, right? Shouldn't get my hopes up :P)
posted by jenfullmoon at 4:35 PM on December 23, 2021


Oh, I completely made it up. Although it probably says something about me that I have now made up an entire fantasy musical in my head because of that one comment joke and I am SERIOUSLY MAD that they killed Black Widow offstage -- yes, the whole "eight people step into the time portals and only seven step out" was a chillingly effective onstage moment, but Tony Stark gets a whole aria when he dies (and yes, I know there were more than eight time travellers in the movie, but I'm assuming they cut a couple of characters to keep things tighter, although conversely, Ant Man had to be introduced during the Battle of New York because otherwise the character would have ended up popping up out of nowhere in Act II during the "Civil War" sequence) -- although I don't mind so much that the Spider-Man character was cut after previews, even though he's a local New York favorite, because they had to change the actor three times due to injuries and the wirework was honestly just too dangerous, not to mention that for some reason at that point every reference to "Peter Parker" in the script was [REDACTED DUE TO SPOILERS FOR NO WAY HOME], and furthermore...
posted by kyrademon at 5:00 PM on December 23, 2021 [19 favorites]


I love you.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 5:27 PM on December 23, 2021


The random cute CGI owl in the tree.

Not that random ;-)
posted by oneirodynia at 5:50 PM on December 23, 2021 [10 favorites]


I'm certain the plug would have been yanked. At the very least, the bulbs would have smashed.

You'd be surprised how much Christmas lights can survive.

I guess we're supposed to think they would have been more respected in their Police and Firefighter uniforms

I was kind of impressed at how the uniformed NYPD were almost nowhere to be seen. I guess in the MCU when there's an Avengers brawl the cops just establish a perimeter and hope it doesn't get too out of hand. I was also impressed at the sheer number of mooks the Tracksuits were able to muster.

My personal stake in all this is that I vaguely know one of the people playing an Avenger in Rogers: The Musical, which is hilarious.
posted by BungaDunga at 6:22 PM on December 23, 2021 [1 favorite]


ladies and gentlemen. in tonight’s show the role of

CLINT BARTON

will be played by

NEIL PATRICK HARRIS
posted by sixswitch at 6:43 PM on December 23, 2021 [5 favorites]


kyrademon, I really loved this bit from Tony’s Plan.


as captain america he’s in command
but when he’s steve, he’s just an old man
who can’t understand
how vulnerable we are —

we won’t always be there, so this’ll
make sure, when i can’t catch the missile,
when things aren’t so pure

this yellow rock — Hawkeye was in hock to it —
me and banner have eight doctorates

I’ve got to see my plan unfurled
a suit of armour, ‘round the world

posted by sixswitch at 6:59 PM on December 23, 2021 [2 favorites]


There was a very noticeable shot from above where every single tracksuit guy in frame was obviously told "writhe a little so it's clear that despite the fact that you all got shot with or otherwise concussed by very dangerous arrows you are merely wounded and stunned, not dead."

Except for the two reduced to mouse size and carried off by an owl. They... get to play an unexpected new role in the food chain, bro.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:28 PM on December 23, 2021 [2 favorites]


Even if the kids hadn't known about Dad's job, a surprise golden retriever buys a lot of forgiveness.


Clint seems pretty open with his family about his job and what it has entailed. Moreso, I suspect, than many of our own parents are or have been with us.

If you and all your siblings and your mom turned to dust along with half the world, and your dad was prepared to give up his own life to get you all returned, would you be okay with him not turning up until lunchtime on the following Christmas Day? It’s a big hypothetical, but I think the family would cut him some slack.

Especially when he brings an excellent dog with him.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 7:41 PM on December 23, 2021 [1 favorite]


They... get to play an unexpected new role in the food chain, bro.

Bro-zoar
posted by axiom at 10:04 PM on December 23, 2021 [5 favorites]


My new desire is that every time Yelena and Kate end up in the same episode of something, they have a fight scene like this one, complete with "yeah, that was good - but, wow, that body throw you did?" commentary. Like, it's just how they greet each other, and then they hang out and get drinks or mac&cheese and have girl talk about girly topics like violence, mayhem, and where to get good umbrella-drink cocktails.

kyrademon: I decided that it made the most sense if - in terms of show structure - "Save the City" was the "Rogers" equivalent of "Yorktown" in "Hamilton."

Here's an article on the watch that we see at the end, and what it may mean re MCU lore. Laura being part of S.H.I.E.L.D. (as "someone who got out a long time ago") gives her strategy suggestions in their phone calls a bit more context. Personally, I hope she's working remotely as agent emeritus or running an intel consultancy out of her barn or something rather than just completely retired.
posted by rmd1023 at 5:39 PM on December 24, 2021 [3 favorites]


Clint seems pretty open with his family about his job and what it has entailed. Moreso, I suspect, than many of our own parents are or have been with us.

He and Laura speak in whispers or another language to talk specifics, so I doubt they're very open (with good reason). At least up till actually showed up on Christmas day, the kids were pretty annoyed and disappointed with Clint ditching them in the middle of their Christmas fun.

Clint's return on Christmas Day would have worked better if the kids had mentioned their disappointment on missing pre-Christmas activities with him, while still being happy he's home on Christmas day.

It's all weird, what with Kate turning in her own mother for murder, but purposefully turning a blind eye to Clint's actions as Ronin.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:06 PM on December 24, 2021


Dang but D’Onofrio is positively Orson Wellesian. I’d watch a whole series with the Trust a Bro guys driving around in their truck.

This was pretty fun to binge on Christmas Eve.
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:30 PM on December 24, 2021 [2 favorites]


He and Laura speak in whispers or another language to talk specifics, so I doubt they're very open (with good reason)

On certain specifics, yes. If I were trying to conceal my job from my kids, I think taking them to a Broadway musical in which I am a character would be a poor strategy.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 8:43 PM on December 24, 2021 [12 favorites]


It's all weird, what with Kate turning in her own mother for murder, but purposefully turning a blind eye to Clint's actions as Ronin.

Implicit in superhero films is the idea that it's ok to do violence to bad guys, up to and including murdering them. I find it best not to think too hard through the implications while the film is going on. Being OK with fictional murder is actually fine, otherwise Hannibal would be a very weird watch.

On certain specifics, yes. If I were trying to conceal my job from my kids, I think taking them to a Broadway musical in which I am a character would be a poor strategy.

Yes, I read it as them trying to avoid worrying the kids by concealing what's currently unfolding (also the kids may not think that Mom has a history), while also not extending that same secrecy to over-and-done-with events like NY.
posted by axiom at 10:54 AM on December 25, 2021 [1 favorite]


It's all weird, what with Kate turning in her own mother for murder

Erik Voss points out that the scene of Eleanor getting arrested was filmed in front of a green screen, with a lot of ADR. In other words, the decision to have her character arrested was made during reshoots, after the original ending for her was scrapped; maybe she was killed off in the original, which wouldn’t have tested very well.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 11:33 AM on December 25, 2021 [2 favorites]


If I were trying to conceal my job from my kids, I think taking them to a Broadway musical in which I am a character would be a poor strategy.

A feel good musicial that doesn’t mention your role in various assassinations is definitely perfect for presenting a certain look.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:10 PM on December 25, 2021


To be fair, most feel good musicals go light on the wetwork.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:52 PM on December 25, 2021 [3 favorites]


(white suits? Hawaiian shirts?)

I saw on twitter this was his outfit from Amazing Spider-Man: Family Business.


I own that exact shirt. It was from Target if I remember right (can you imagine the Kingpin shopping at Target?). I wore it to the office Christmas party the Friday before the episode aired, and now I'm wondering if any of my coworkers were watching Hawkeye.
posted by Foosnark at 9:20 AM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]


Dang but D’Onofrio is positively Orson Wellesian.

Which is fitting, since he play Orson Welles in Ed Wood and Five Minutes Mr Welles.
posted by crossoverman at 7:07 PM on December 26, 2021 [1 favorite]


Just wondering, was there anything specific about the Ronin suit that tied it to Clint? Seems like a weird thing to be worried about, overall.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:53 PM on December 27, 2021


Crossoverman, this was a Welles a la “Touch of Evil.”
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 7:06 PM on December 27, 2021


Just wondering, was there anything specific about the Ronin suit that tied it to Clint?

I think the answer is no, but Clint knew that the suit showing back up would attract revenge and felt like it was his responsibility to get whoever had the suit now out of that situation (especially when it ended up being a kid who didn't realize what it meant).
posted by jdherg at 1:59 PM on December 28, 2021


My new desire is that every time Yelena and Kate end up in the same episode of something, they have a fight scene like this one, complete with "yeah, that was good - but, wow, that body throw you did?" commentary.

That's pretty much exactly the way she greeted her sister after them not seeing each other for years. Face kicks and judo throws are her love language.
posted by straight at 8:19 PM on December 28, 2021 [3 favorites]


I dont think the emotional conclusion quite landed

This episode was tonally all over the place, we had trick arrow hijinks in the ice skating rink that would have worked in '60s Batman, Kate sending her mother to prison, a Yelena/Kate fight with life and death stakes being treated like a sparring match, the deadly serious Maya plot, Ren faire crowd control, etc. I had trouble dealing with the shifts.
posted by mark k at 8:23 PM on December 28, 2021


I was able to enjoy this more when I just accepted they were doing the the thing Falcon & Winter Soldier did with their finale: Everyone converges on a single building and randomly runs around without plan or purpose so we can just have a bunch of scenes with whatever character combinations we want.

I was disappointed by the Clint and Yelena confrontation. Clint told her either too much or too little. I feel like all he had to do was say, "We were in a situation where one of us wasn't gonna make it out. We fought over who that would be and Nat kicked my ass. I lost the fight and lost her." That seems like 100% something Yelena would believe.

But given how much they ended up talking, seems like he could have added: "She died to bring you back. To bring everybody back. Half the universe. She saved my wife and my kids and I can never repay her. It should have been me."
posted by straight at 8:30 PM on December 28, 2021 [10 favorites]


The Echo part was disappointing, partly because they seem to have de-powered her from the comics. She's supposed to have a superhuman ability like the Taskmaster to duplicate any human feat (especially fighting styles) that she watches (thus, "Echo"). She's also kind of a Daredevil echo -- that extra visual ability to duplicate what she sees compensating for not being able to hear.

But even just having several characters using sign language was great and putting Echo together with Clint's hearing loss was a really good idea. Did they get that connection from the comics?

The big trick arrows fight sequence seemed much more cartoonish than most of the other stuff in the show (I like mark k's 60s Batman comparison), but it was fun, and the arrow-making scene was great. Kate's battle with Kingpin was much more satisfying, getting to use her snap after he broke all her arrows. I never thought we'd get this much more of D'Onofrio's Kingpin.

And I loved Yelena and Kate. And I couldn't believe how many times I laughed or at least smiled at Trust-a-Bro. I guess I'd say most of the serious stuff was weak, but I was consistently entertained.
posted by straight at 9:15 PM on December 28, 2021 [2 favorites]


With the vaguely heart-shaped emblem on Clint's costume, from now on I'm going to think of Clint and Bow from She-Ra as being the same character.
posted by Syllepsis at 10:12 PM on December 28, 2021 [2 favorites]


The final confrontation between Clint and Maya was disappointing and offputting the more I think about it. He killed her father while wearing the Ronin suit, so in order to confront her about his part in that, Clint puts the suit back on and then fights Maya while wearing the suit, besting her in combat. Then he leaves, saying essentially "we have both been used due to our rage and grief". Then he goes back home to a happy Christmas.

A case can definitely be made about Clint remaining free, but to not hear him say anything resembling "I'm sorry" and face no repercussions for what he did leaves a bad taste. Everyone (except himself) still view him as a hero and he goes home to his family after breaking other families and that's that.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:03 AM on December 29, 2021 [1 favorite]


I think it's the only story I've seen where the "We're not so different, you and I..." gambit actually worked.

"My name is Inigo Montoya. You killed my father. Prepare..."

"You've killed some people too. And I was working for Humperdinck. So really we're both victims here. Now go away and leave me alone or else."

"... Okay."
posted by straight at 10:48 AM on December 29, 2021 [1 favorite]


I thought it was implied that Clint didn't kill Maya's father when it turned out Kingpin was behind it, there's certainly a theory that he didn't.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 12:24 AM on December 30, 2021


I assumed it was Kazi - that was why he wasn't at the meeting that night. Though, given they've not mentioned it and killed him off anyway (at Maya's hand), suggests I'm wrong about that.
posted by Grangousier at 4:43 AM on December 30, 2021


To my understanding, Clint took full responsibility for carrying out the hit, but he apologized to Maya for the fact it was actually commissioned/instructed/conned by Kingpin. Kazi wasn't there that night so he won't get caught in the crossfire and be ready to assume leadership when the dust settles. I base this on my careful understanding of this trope in crime gang/mafia movies.
posted by cendawanita at 6:40 AM on December 30, 2021 [3 favorites]


I was distracted throughout these episodes by the knowledge that "khazi" (pronounced almost exactly like Kazi's name) is British Army slang for "toilet"
posted by Mogur at 8:01 AM on December 30, 2021 [1 favorite]


I never saw S.H.I.E.L.D. and for some reason my brain assumed that was a Captain America symbol and came up with the theory that Lauren is Cap's daughter/granddaughter because of time shenanigans, which would have been much more interesting and also very funny and original. Pay me Marvel.
posted by brook horse at 6:29 PM on January 3


I wonder if Hawkeye was going to suggest the name Mockingbird for Kate?
posted by cooker girl at 8:12 AM on January 4


Doubtful, the source material has Kate being Hawkeye and little reason to change. Still possible, since adaptations are never 100%, but it wouldn’t make sense, since Mockingbird was Clint’s wife in the comics.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:09 AM on January 4 [1 favorite]


Yeah I know Laura was Mockingbird but since she's retired I thought maybe he'd suggest that as an homage to her. Just a thought!
posted by cooker girl at 6:54 AM on January 5


Late to watching this, just wanted to comment that Kate using Kingpin’s cuff link to explode all the arrowheads and (temporarily) defeat him was a perfect touchstone to the Netflix/Daredevil Kingpin.
posted by mikepop at 5:09 PM on January 10 [1 favorite]


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