Black Panther: Wakanda Forever (2022)
November 10, 2022 11:04 AM - Subscribe

The nation of Wakanda is pitted against intervening world powers as they mourn the loss of their king T'Challa.

Black Panther: Wakanda Forever Review [Empire]
‘Black Panther: Wakanda Forever’ Review: Women on the Home Front [NYT / Archive]
The Women of ‘Wakanda Forever’ [NYT / Archive]
‘Wakanda Forever’ and Exploring the Dora Milaje’s Beauty of Combat [Black Girl Nerds]
posted by ellieBOA (55 comments total) 3 users marked this as a favorite
 
$5 more for MeFi! More info here.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:32 AM on November 10, 2022 [2 favorites]


Black Panther: Wakanda Forever is a breathtaking and cathartic step forward for the franchise [The Verge]
posted by ellieBOA at 4:11 AM on November 11, 2022 [1 favorite]


For me this was unfocused and the plot and character motivations didn’t hold together.

I was hoping that another character would take on the Black Panther mantle, because I don’t think the actress playing Shuri really has the charisma to be at the center of this movie.

The question of how does Wakanda relate to the rest of the world is an interesting one, but that gets sidelined for a heretofore unheard-of super race that wants to fight Wakanda for … reasons. I enjoyed the art direction and costume work that went into the water people, but they felt shoehorned into this story.

If I were James Cameron I might feel annoyed that this movie with blue water people fighting is coming out right before my movie about blue water people fighting is released.
posted by jeoc at 10:44 AM on November 11, 2022 [6 favorites]


There were many good scenes, and some great scenes but it never quite came together in my opinion.

The funeral procession for T'Challa was superb. I wish they had opened with that instead of the completely unconvincing and rather cringey scene of Shuri playing with DNA balls.

M'Baku was great - great character development, great acting.
The student would have been a fun character in a different movie but she did not feel like part of this story - at first it looked like she could be but ever since she came to Wakanda there didn't seem to be much character development.

The final song felt like it was from a different movie, and I actively disliked it.
In contrast, the post-credit scene brought some of that feeling back, it was quite moving.
posted by M. at 11:51 AM on November 11, 2022 [2 favorites]


I feel like they missed an opportunity for Nakia to step in as the next Black Panther. Rewarding the COVID-denying actor kind of sucks. Nakia wanted Wakanda to engage with the world rather than retreat. Showing that being a hero doesn't require being of the Royal Bloodline would be really nice. Shuri seems like a misstep.
posted by rikschell at 4:51 PM on November 11, 2022 [17 favorites]


I saw this today and it was...really a Marvel movie: B.S. science-y stuff, lots of computer-generated footage, a big fight scene, and quips!

After Chadwick Boseman died they had the choice to either do a thoughtful movie about loss and grief and duty and family, or else ignore it and make another noisy superhero movie.

But they tried to do both of these in one loooong flick, and the two threads just didn't weave together. Either ditch the quips or lean into it like the Thor movies; either make it a noisy punch-em-up or do a character study (and these actors are good enough and charismatic enough to deliver that!); either be serious or, uh, hire Julia Louis-Dreyfuss.

Good music, though.
posted by wenestvedt at 7:23 PM on November 11, 2022 [5 favorites]



I saw this today and it was...really a Marvel movie:


That's exactly what my family said leaving the movie theater. It wasn't bad for a Marvel movie but as a follow-up to the Black Panther it was underwhelming.
posted by M. at 9:24 PM on November 11, 2022 [1 favorite]


‘They erase everything’: For this ‘Black Panther 2’ star [Tenoch Huerta], representation is resistance [LA Times]
posted by ellieBOA at 2:40 AM on November 12, 2022


I thought it was funny that without the titular superhero they couldn't just have a villain that's a slightly stronger copy of the hero in a different colored suit (iron man 1, black panther 1, shang chi, captain america, hulk, etc), so they made the villain a more secret wakanda that's all blue.

Pretty good overall, wish we'd gotten more from Namora and whoever the other Talokans were.
posted by fomhar at 6:21 AM on November 12, 2022 [3 favorites]


I know it was never going to be this movie, but I would have loved to see Namor and Shuri/Ramonda figure out a way to be allies that doesn't involve destroying the world or each other. Trading tech, making plans, Wakanda helping Talokan against an incursion or stopping them from being bombed or something like that. Instead for most of the movie I was annoyed by the senselessness that they had more in common than not and yet were destroying each other.
posted by kokaku at 11:19 AM on November 12, 2022 [3 favorites]


I did like seeing the Ayo/Aneka story brought over from the comics, including the tender kiss near the end.
posted by kokaku at 11:21 AM on November 12, 2022 [4 favorites]


I actually had few complaints, and was happy to see Kilmonger come in as Shuri's anti-conscience.

I thought the Namoreans using Siren Song was pretty badass and funny/horrifying.

It felt like a comic book movie, because it was. If I want a deep take on grief I'm gonna go elsewhere.

I do think Namor is a neat enough character in a cool enough world to get his own movie.

My kid and I did discuss how weird/typically Marvel it was that we are introduced to the kid of a couple who barely (or ever?) kissed on screen.
posted by emjaybee at 6:34 PM on November 12, 2022 [2 favorites]


I thought that it was fine, and remarkable for being a big (intended) blockbuster that's centered around black women, their choices, and their determination to do the right thing. Yeah, it's kind of irritating that Wright chose to promote some bullshit a while back, and Nyong'o is just a better actress, but the film's makers made the choices that they made and did a pretty good job regardless.

I liked Ironheart, Val as the real villain, and how, for once, they had a guy take his shirt off without being super jacked. And hurrah for Ayo/Aneka and getting Michaela Coel for the latter. And speaking of actors, loved that Lake Bell, who's done a bunch of VA work, including being Black Widow for the D+ What If series and Harley Quinn for the recent cartoon series, as the scientist on the vibranium-seeking rig near the beginning.
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:57 PM on November 12, 2022 [6 favorites]


My enjoyment is very specific: Malay is one of the languages that still practices hierarchy in having specific vocabulary for royalty (isn't just the royal We, we're talking about entirely different pronouns, verbs, and diction) so the subtitles really emphasized (and reminded the audience of) the characters' station the way the actual dialogue cannot. Really subverts the relatability quotient, which I enjoyed.

The story on the Wakandan side was inevitable once the T'Challa path was taken off the table, but it's really hard to appreciate this when it felt like Wright gets out-acted by her main scene partners. I wanted to like Riri more but even if her initial antagonism is understandable I can't get over that her story function meant Wakanda is left weaker than before. It's as others have noted, much of it is because the story didn't quite gel together -- like, the tragedy of these two civilizations clashing didn't feel inevitable as much as unnecessary. But parts of this whole movie is so worth it, just to see it being committed on film. It's just that, since they couldn't quite get to the 'antagonist is the protagonist's mirror', much of the collision felt rote. Heck, I wouldn't mind if they actually pushed some kind of romance/political alliance angle that went haywire - it would've made as much sense as this pot of plot.
posted by cendawanita at 1:42 AM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]


Also also also, it is hilarious to me that:

- the colonizer element is firmly English/Americans and the French. RIP the Dutch, better luck next movie #representation.

- Spain exists but not as a current power, but at least I got to hear Lupita Nyong'o speak Spanish!

- the UN headquarters is definitely in Geneva. BRB need to repair my lungs from the laughing.
posted by cendawanita at 1:49 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]


Instead for most of the movie I was annoyed by the senselessness that they had more in common than not and yet were destroying each other.

But, that was one of the points of the movie, I felt. Wars like that happen in our world all the time - we end up fighting our neighbours and taking each other down when there are bigger threats we could unite against, like climate change or, in their case, Elaine Benes. I read the resolution of Shuri's struggle over "am I going to be a T'Challa Black Panther or a Killmonger Black Panther" as coming to a realization about that and making an enemy into an ally.
posted by transient at 6:44 AM on November 13, 2022 [5 favorites]


I think it was impressively good given everything it was trying to do. A lot of things went right. The returning cast were great, the newcomers were great, Coogler and the rest of the production team are real good at their jobs. I think I mainly wanted this movie to take Boseman's loss seriously, give it the right gravity, and it did that. Everything else about the in-world stuff I am fine with pushing it to the next movie. I was pleasantly surprised at how well it did with making the intrinsically silly mer-people stuff look plausible, Tenoch Huerta did great with what could've been a terribly silly-looking role, they got a reasonable start on making a "what if Wakanda but Mesoamerica" although it raises more questions but maybe we can look forward to those being addressed in the future.

What is the timeline of baby Toussaint - how old is he? Is he supposed to be like 7, have been conceived before the blip, born during the blip while his dad was gone... and then he got his dad back for a year or two and then lost him again? I want to hear more of Nakia's story; I want to know how they never told Shuri; I want to know when Ramonda knew (does she know when she visits Nakia in this movie? or is this when she learns?) etc.
posted by LobsterMitten at 7:42 AM on November 13, 2022 [1 favorite]


Toussaint is around 6, with the exact age left vague because they don't want to openly contradict themselves on the timeline again. Born early in the blip, had a couple months of his dad being alive but dying of unspecified cancer type disease, then another year.

The next big villain of the MCU is Kang the Conqueror, a time traveller who occasionally pops up like "this ancient egyption warlord you've been fighting? That's just me, Kang, as an old man who will later go to the past to fuck with you! Iron Man's sidekick, Iron Lad? I sent my teenage self back in time to learn your secrets! I remember winning this battle!" With Stark being dead and Kang being played by a black actor, I wonder if they're going to make Toussaint a Kang variant and age him up enough to lead a movie during the next avengers film- just pop off to the future for ten years to study super science.
posted by fomhar at 9:38 AM on November 13, 2022


Likely if they're aging him up, I reckon it'll be under the "technically we didn't recast T'Challa, his name IS T'Challa" excuse.

I always forget this era is Phase 4. I still can't figure out the forward momentum in terms of the multi-movie plot arc, but thematically it's coming together (loss and stepping up to the plate) if a little shaggy.
posted by cendawanita at 9:49 AM on November 13, 2022


- the UN headquarters is definitely in Geneva. BRB need to repair my lungs from the laughing.

They probably got sick of the NYC getting destroyed and having to be rebuilt every few months, as is the cost of living in a comic book world.
posted by Apocryphon at 5:34 PM on November 13, 2022 [3 favorites]


I unabashedly loved this movie.
- The opening credits just did me in.
- Shuri isn't charismatic, she's a teenager and a scientist. She's not her brother. She's going to figure out how to do it anyhow, and I love that.
- I loved Riri/Ironheart and I hope we see more of her (I have read zero of the comics, so I never know what to expect out of these movies, which is really a treat).
- I loved that Ross did what he did, knowing that it could jettison his life. I hope he's living somewhere comfortable that the CIA cannot get to.
- M'Baku as the elder statesman/big brother/etc was wonderful. I really appreciated that Shuri abdicated to him at the end. She doesn't want to be queen. I appreciated that he was level headed and focused on being a good leader.
- Speaking of queen... Angela Bassett was amazing and I bawled and I can't believe they killed off Ramonda, but she was so tired.

I just. Guh. I just loved this movie, and I thought I was more coherent about why, but maybe I'm too busy feeling my feels right now.
posted by joycehealy at 5:55 PM on November 13, 2022 [8 favorites]


Also, some dude behind us was mouthing off about "oh, now there's gays in Wakanda too" and my wife and I showed great restraint in not yelling at him. Or making out in front of him.
posted by joycehealy at 6:04 PM on November 13, 2022 [2 favorites]


a full day later, and I think I finally hit on why the narrative felt not fully baked through (for me): not knowing much about the production timeline, I think I can perceive the original plan was (at least) a trilogy where T'Challa encounters milestones in his leadership that test his principles. So far so obvious, yeah? But I think the reorientation suffered here a bit because the key figures in his life were each meant to represent a specific viewpoint that he'll need to synthesise to succeed. Shuri couldn't play the skeptic and status/tradition role at the same time, but Riri is around, what more M'Baku, so she had to.

The on-ramping wasn't enough, but I can be sympathetic to the effort. It's probably where I'm finding the conflict between her and Namor to be unconvincing (especially because they're alike at heart; it's pretty genius to have this spelled out with her spirit ancestor being Killmonger tbh), but it does make Shuri's uncertainty more compelling - I wish that 'caught by the forces of society & history' thread was better supported by plot shennanigans because I can absolutely point out, 'ah this is the moment where the text is telling me her hand is forced' moment, but it wasn't fully earned. And because of that, her change of heart had to be telegraphed pretty heavily (to the point I was nearly thinking she was dreaming all of this and her spirit journey was actually unfinished), even if the natural point of her story was the struggle represented by her unfinished argument with Killmonger and she absolutely would've been the character to continue the war. Namor's end speech as well felt like trying to recover the original storyline.
posted by cendawanita at 12:04 AM on November 14, 2022


Also, some dude behind us was mouthing off about "oh, now there's gays in Wakanda too" and my wife and I showed great restraint in not yelling at him. Or making out in front of him.

Omg you have more restraint than me! Michaela Coel specifically took the role of Aneka because it was a queer role.

Ironheart has a TV series coming on Disney+.
posted by ellieBOA at 12:11 AM on November 14, 2022 [3 favorites]


I enjoyed this very much. The silent Marvel logo in the opening made me cry. My only real quibble was the time spent with Ross and Val. I loved the first scene with Ross jogging but I thought he could have just told them who the scientist was and went on his way and they could have spent more time developing Riri. I also though the police/FBI chase was stupid--who the hell chases a foreign princess like that, they could have killed her and started an international incident. It would have been better for them to just be driving over the bridge when they get attacked by the Talokan (Talokanians? Talikanites?).

Other than that, I loved the movie. The main characters were beautifully sketched out. Queen Ramonda was incredible, M'baku will be a great king, Okoye went through some serious shit, and I was moved by Shuri moving through her grief and anger and her need for revenge, to finally showing Namor who she was. Also, Namor. Get me a movie stat. He was fantastic.
posted by ceejaytee at 5:19 AM on November 14, 2022


My only real quibble was the time spent with Ross and Val. I loved the first scene with Ross jogging but I thought he could have just told them who the scientist was and went on his way and they could have spent more time developing Riri. I also though the police/FBI chase was stupid--who the hell chases a foreign princess like that, they could have killed her and started an international incident.

A few thoughts on that (and an aside: I may have some more clarification if I go to see it again and/or when it drops on D+ and I can get subtitles):

- Did they know that Shuri was there?

- Flip it around: what would the repercussions have been if they'd been captured and Ramonda had to go back in front of the UN and answer questions about why, right after she'd been righteously furious about the attempted raid on the Wakandan outreach center, she apparently tried to kidnap an American citizen on American soil, and her own daughter was involved? ("Well, she's always been a bit headstrong, you know...") I mean, we know that Riri wasn't exactly unwilling, but so what?

- In terms of the function in the MCU, this is setting up Val going in front of a big meeting of the US security apparatus and saying, "See, this is the exact situation that would call for unconventional operatives to handle unconventional situations. Ladies, gentlemen, and others, I present to you... (next slide with a flourish) ...the Thunderbolts Initiative."
posted by Halloween Jack at 6:39 AM on November 14, 2022


I feel like they missed an opportunity for Nakia to step in as the next Black Panther. Rewarding the COVID-denying actor kind of sucks. Nakia wanted Wakanda to engage with the world rather than retreat. Showing that being a hero doesn't require being of the Royal Bloodline would be really nice. Shuri seems like a misstep.

I agree it was a missed opportunity to promote a different character, especially someone not of the royal bloodline. Though Wakanda seems to be an elective monarchy anyway, so I look forward to seeing the Jabari tribe in power if M'Baku goes unchallenged. But this movie was just as much Ramonda's and Okoye's journeys as it is Shuri's, and thus makes the latter less of a central focus for the first two acts. In fact, given the confusion resulting from the lack of a Black Panther, it was a nice touch having multiple viewpoint characters with agency. Almost like a mini-version of all the Blip stories that's been released since Endgame.

I think this film also ends up confirming that Shuri was a placeholder Black Panther at best, there only to solve the Namor crisis, but not really to serve as the next one. So that does minimize Letitia Wright's prominence somewhat, while at the same time acknowledging her character's familial ties to T'Challa, resolving the emotional themes completely, thus freeing up future movies from necessarily having to focus on Shuri.

Nakia had better be a focus character next time, and I think she probably will be. This movie basically sets up Toussaint as the eventual future, after all.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:16 AM on November 15, 2022


- I loved that Ross did what he did, knowing that it could jettison his life. I hope he's living somewhere comfortable that the CIA cannot get to.

Man Carrying Thing: the CIA in every marvel movie

The Killmonger saves Tony Stark, then later kills him, becomes Black Panther, etc. What If... episode is still the most revolutionary Disney-MCU story.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:26 AM on November 15, 2022 [2 favorites]


The Uncompromising Danai Gurira [The Cut Cover Interview / Archive]
posted by ellieBOA at 3:30 AM on November 15, 2022 [1 favorite]


The movie did a great job of honoring Chadwick Boseman--count me among the people who got teary during the silent Marvel Studios intro dedicated completely to him. But then, for the bulk of the movie, there's just too much going on. The need to set up other Marvel properties is interfering with good story-telling. Val needs to be ditched completely, or moved to a post-credits scene. Riri was in the movie too much too keep the action moving but not enough to really establish her character. Ditch her and save her intro for the TV series. Lake Bell is too well known an actor to show up for a few minutes and get killed. I kind of suspect there's a draft of this movie where she is working for some other Big Bad who wants vibranium, and Talokan and Wakanda have to team up to defeat whoever that is. I would've liked that movie. I can also imagine a movie that stays centered on Queen Ramonda, balancing her own grief, her need to take on leadership, and the threats faced by Wakanda without a Black Panther to fight for them. But what we got was unsatisfying. Lots of moving parts, little of it terribly interesting.

I understand why they wanted to introduce Little T'Challa, but why in the world would you hide his existence from Shuri? Wouldn't a kid whose dad got dusted during the blip really benefit from having a young, cool aunt around? They could have easily had him stay a secret from the audience but still have Shuri know. Blah blah blah raise him away from the pressures of the throne yadda yadda he's safer if the world doesn't know he exists blah blah it was T'Challa's plan whatever. But if you think about the logistics of it as it's presented, it's just weird. Hi! Your dead brother had a kid and I decided you didn't need to know you're an auntie.

Overall, mid-tier MCU at best. I was disappointed.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 11:20 AM on November 16, 2022 [6 favorites]


I actually liked this one more than the first one. (Captain American: Civil War was a better Black Panther movie than Black Panther as well, imo.) While the first movie had some great, deeply emotional scenes, it was a simple movie told confusedly. The globetrotting to Seoul and so forth felt like it was over the place. Interestingly enough, this movie was like a complex movie told simply. Despite having multiple viewpoint characters and a new group introduced, it was not difficult to follow. And to echo a comment above, I liked how it felt like a comic book movie.

That said, definitely there were choices that went nowhere. Okoye being punished by the queen and drummed out of the Dora Milaje seems like a set up for future movies- is she going to end up in the Thunderbolts after freeing Baron Zemo for some reason? Couldn't the next ruler of Wakanda just un-demote her anyway? Agree that Val should've been ditched, she and Agent Martin Freeman served minimal purpose in this one. (And I still don't get why they cast a British actor to play an American anyway.) Riri is set up to be a successor character but gets less characterization than America Chavez, who was already given the short shift.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:44 PM on November 16, 2022


I feel like it may not have been intentional on the part of the director (because it derived from some of the plot difficulties identified above, which are contrary to the MCU method), but for long stretches I really felt the serious discomfort of operating around a power vacuum in a time of crisis. Things genuinely seemed out of control because plots weren't progressing neatly, threads were being dropped, people were being introduced and then pushed aside, plans were announced and then abandoned...the world was just destabilized.

Angela Bassett was fantastic. The textiles were fantastic. The soundtrack was fantastic (though I didn't care for the credits song).
posted by praemunire at 5:13 PM on November 16, 2022 [2 favorites]


Everything Has a Story in Wakanda Forever: Production designer Hannah Beachler breaks down the sequel’s most meaningful new sets. [Vulture / Archive]
posted by ellieBOA at 8:34 AM on November 17, 2022


Whatever can be said about this movie, the choice to use synths for its theme was a bold and brilliant one
posted by Apocryphon at 1:46 PM on November 17, 2022 [1 favorite]


Black Panther: Wakanda Forever unearthed deep colorism within Latino communities
While most American audiences see Black Panther: Wakanda Forever as a win for Black and Latino communities — with the introduction of underwater king Namor played by Mexican actor Tenoch Huerta Mejía — the reaction in Mexico has been much bumpier. Last month, newscasters for Mexico’s ADN40 channel complained that the movie’s focus on darker-skinned Latino actors is a form of discrimination against white Latinos.

The ADN40 clip is now going viral on TikTok, where creators are highlighting how, within Latin media, lighter-skinned (especially white) actors are cast at much higher rates than darker ones. If you grew up on telenovelas, you would know that the lead characters were almost always green- or blue-eyed, and anyone who was a “moreno” would be relegated to goofy sidekicks or nosy maids. American entertainment, too, comes with its own typecasting of Latinos.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 6:53 AM on November 21, 2022 [4 favorites]


So we're just not gonna talk about how Namor's people greet each other by doing Baby Shark?
posted by straight at 11:12 AM on November 24, 2022 [10 favorites]


Can we get Winston Duke some kind of award for Best Conspicuously Contemptuous Consumption of a Root Vegetable. I continue to adore M'Baku.

Tenoch Huerta was a delight.
posted by humbug at 7:10 PM on November 27, 2022 [11 favorites]


I was pretty bored through most of this. It wasn't bad but I just couldn't get invested in it at all and I was really disappointed by the action scenes. Except for that final fight on the train tracks, the first Black Panther had some great actions scenes and the once in these were just so incoherently shot and edited that almost felt embarrassed. The car chase scene in Boston/Cambridge was especially bad.

Black Panther was one of my favorite MCU films and this one was a big letdown.
posted by octothorpe at 9:21 AM on November 28, 2022


The 2023 Oscar nominations for best costume design are out: of Ruth Carter doesn't win, then she was robbed!

Nominations:
- Mary Zophres from “Babylon,”
- Ruth Carter from “Black Panther: Wakanda Forever,”
- Catherine Martin from “Elvis,”
- Shirley Kurata from “Everything Everywhere All at Once”
- Jenny Beavan from “Mrs. Harris Goes to Paris”
posted by Faintdreams at 2:37 PM on February 1, 2023


Ruth Carter did a great job, but I'm glad I don't have to choose between her and Shirley Kurata. They had two very different tasks, but both were beautifully imaginative.
posted by praemunire at 6:21 PM on February 1, 2023 [1 favorite]


There were some aspects I liked a lot, but it did seem like the story didn't really gel. Though for all the different things getting crammed in, it was pretty smooth. I feel like the tie-in aspects of these films/shows have been feeling less organic than ever lately. That said, I'm sure it was so hard to pull together something after Boseman's death. This film had to be a tribute to him and they did a great job of that, but it is a tall order to squeeze that into a fun action movie.

It was also hard to watch Shuri without thinking about the antivax thing, especially when she was doing science stuff or there were masked guards in the background or whatever.

I feel like the big fight scenes are always the silliest part. In this movie, I had a variety of major and minor quibbles. The water bombs seemed to be made of water compressed by several orders of magnitude, which seems like an impossible kind of water balloon, and one that for sure would not float up into a ship. A lot of the big fight scene seemed to involve throwing the water people into the water, where presumably they raise their hands and wave them back and forth saying, "Oh no! I'm in the water!" sarcastically. To me, the most difficult to understand was Shuri deciding to have the big battle out in the middle of the ocean. I feel like that's obviously not playing to their strengths.

I think the big ship should have been called the Wakanda Forever.
posted by snofoam at 11:33 AM on February 2, 2023 [2 favorites]


I wish this were an M'Baku movie. What a hot, charming weirdo he is! Maybe next time around. The rest of the movie was...a movie. They should've made Namor bitchier.

In fairness to the "throw Wakandans into the water" war strategy: there were a bunch of merfolk ready to stab them in that water! But yeah, visually, it got old fast.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:44 PM on February 2, 2023


In fairness to the "throw Wakandans into the water" war strategy

Not sure if this was in response to me, but I was referring to the Wakandans throwing the water people into the water.
posted by snofoam at 2:41 PM on February 3, 2023


This one felt like it sort of struggled with the usual comic book power escalation. Like, ok Namor, you're threatening isolationist Wakanda when they don't have their local hero, sure fine that's all well and good. Once you're done with Wakanda and move on to the rest of the world, suddenly you've got the Avengers and Dr Strange and the Hulk and Thor and Ant-Man and Captain America and Spider Man and Shang-Chi and Captain Marvel and ... Eventually they'll gang up on you, hoss, and if one poorly trained newly powered up Black Panther was enough to force you to submit, I mean, your odds don't look so great, buddy.

And yeah, it felt like this should have been a "hey we have a common enemy, let's try to work together" sort of movie, not a "we're going to attack you right out of the gate because you're the strongest nation in the world".

Also, I snorted audibly when Queen Ramonda said they kept tight control over vibranium. I mean, so like what, the vibranium in Cap's shield and the vibranium in Ultron don't count or something? Sure, you can argue that they sold the vibranium that was used in Cap's shield (uh? I forget the backstory, but let's go with sold), but Ultron was absolutely a black market deal.
posted by Kyol at 7:57 PM on February 3, 2023


The water bombs seemed to be made of water compressed by several orders of magnitude, which seems like an impossible kind of water balloon, and one that for sure would not float up into a ship.

Oh, but the water bombs were one of my favorite parts, a very comic-book weapon that seemed new both visually and conceptually. Just let them be magic or vibranium-physics.

To me, the most difficult to understand was Shuri deciding to have the big battle out in the middle of the ocean. I feel like that's obviously not playing to their strengths.


The whole point of that battle was to lure Namor out so they could capture and dehydrate him. They weren't trying to defeat his army, so it made sense to stage the battle out somewhere to prevent further destruction in Wakanda.

suddenly you've got the Avengers and Dr Strange and the Hulk and Thor and Ant-Man and Captain America and Spider Man and Shang-Chi and Captain Marvel... eventually they'll gang up on you, hoss,

Although at this point in MCU history, the Avengers are broken up; Steve Rogers is gone; Stark and Romanov are dead; Hulk is mellow; Captain Marvel, Thor, and Fury are in space; Spider-Man...never existed? or at least isn't Iron Man Jr. anymore. Nobody knows that Bus Guy wields world-conquering magic. It's a much better time for Talokan to rise up than it was back when Ultron first started getting the world excited about vibranium.
posted by straight at 11:35 PM on February 4, 2023 [1 favorite]


The whole point of that battle was to lure Namor out so they could capture and dehydrate him.

That does make the plan more sensible, though still seems kind of suicidal. But I could see how that was a way to attract him before he came back on his own, and they would need enough Wakandans to keep the troops occupied while capturing and dehydrating Namor.
posted by snofoam at 10:29 AM on February 5, 2023


Are the Avengers broken up? I thought we got some glimpses into very non-specific New Avengers at some point or another, but that was before Endgame, maybe?

Anyway, I'm sure Squirrel Girl would've squared Namor away.
posted by Kyol at 7:24 PM on February 5, 2023 [2 favorites]


I think the closest thing we've seen to an Avengers team since Endgame is the Zoom call with Wong, Banner, and Captain Marvel at the end of Shang-Chi. There's no sign of the Avengers in either of the Spider-Man movies, Eternals, or Thor: Love and Thunder. Dr. Strange refers to Wanda as "an Avenger" in Multiverse of Madness.

If there were still an active Avengers team, it seems like there would be some reference to it when Sam Wilson talks to James Rhodes in Falcon and Winter Soldier. I suppose with Sam getting Snapped, he wouldn't have been part of whatever arrangement the government came to after the Snap with Steve, Natasha, and the other fugitive Avengers.
posted by straight at 3:03 AM on February 6, 2023


Finally watched this.

I wonder if I'm over superhero movies? The death count is so high in so many of these: so much collateral damage even in scenes that everyone thinks they "won".

That said, I mostly enjoyed it but I think Nakia should be Black Panther. That way Shuri can keep inventing things and M'Baku can break heads on the council.
posted by suelac at 11:20 PM on February 11, 2023 [1 favorite]


I thought it worked whenever the movie was allowed to be its own vision -- a gorgeous, female-centered Afrofuturist film about grief and vengeance. Whenever it felt like the producers were interfering to make it a Marvel Product (TM), it was bloated and dull -- shoehorning in Riri with no character development, pointlessly throwing in Valentina, all for no reason other than setting up future shows that aren't this one. It'd have been a better movie if all that had been thrown away and replaced with, say, more time spent on Ayo and Aneka, or clearing up the motivation for some of Namor's actions.
posted by kyrademon at 8:09 AM on February 19, 2023 [2 favorites]


A lot of the big fight scene seemed to involve throwing the water people into the water, where presumably they raise their hands and wave them back and forth saying, "Oh no! I'm in the water!" sarcastically.

Yeah, my daughter and I were commenting on this every time it happened. But at least for the final battle it slowed them down somewhat as they had to swim and climb back up to the top of the ship again.
posted by any portmanteau in a storm at 12:42 PM on February 27, 2023


at least for the final battle it slowed them down somewhat as they had to swim and climb back up to the top of the ship again.

Yes, not as effective as it would have been against air-breathing opponents, but it still gave the advantage of high ground back to the Wakandans, who were, after all, fighting a delaying action.
posted by praemunire at 1:14 PM on February 27, 2023


Entertaining airplane movie, made 2.75 (!) hours go away. Loved the tech design for Talokan, loved the way all the Wakandan stories revolved around women. Also enjoyed M'Baku's rehabilitation as more charming and wiser and Tenoch Huerta was sure easy on the eyes all shirtless and glistening.

What missed for me was the introduction of Talokan. The first Black Panther movie was so good at spinning up this whole Afrofuturist culture up from nothing, giving us complex characters and plots and a whole world of tech and culture and tradition. Talokan had some fish people doing silly gestures and holding up glass floats as if they were the most exciting art ever. I definitely recall hearing some unkind comparisons to Avatar 2.

The movie quickly devolved into "Mayan vs African: fight!" Namor's heel turn was particularly sudden and unwelcome, although then he sort of gets redeemed at the end by being honorable / crafty. What would have worked much better would be to have a story about how the CIA is the real enemy, how they knew about Talokan and set them up into conflict with Wakanda to destabilize both countries. Recast K'uk'ulkan as more of a tragic villain.
posted by Nelson at 2:59 PM on June 12, 2023 [1 favorite]


Finally got around to this one. Boseman's absence is dearly felt, of course, and I'm glad the movie leaned into that as hard as it did, while giving us a focus on all of these women. At first, it seemed like they were going for a true multi-protagonist movie, with Shuri, Ramonda, Okoye, Nakia and Riri all sharing the spotlight, because that's definitely how the first half of the movie plays, but after Ramonda's death, it really zeroes in on Shuri. I'm fine with that. Wright's anti-vaxxism aside (though that's a big thing to ignore, of course), Shuri is a cool, interesting character to follow and Wright brings her to life really nicely. But I can't help but think that Nakia would have been the more compelling choice nonetheless.

No matter, though. What I like about how this sets up the future of the series in the wake of Boseman's passing is to double-down on how the Black Panther is a mantle to be taken up by the right person at the right time, representing Wakanda, who as a nation are the true throughline-protagonists for the series. There were things that I liked more about this one than the first installment, as well. Because the first one had to do so much heavy lifting w/r/t worldbuilding, this one could live in those gorgeous visuals a bit more casually and spend more time on character work (one of the things that kinda bugged me about Black Panther - it felt like T'Challa underwent his real character growth in Captain America: Civil War and then was pretty static in his own movie. Probably part of why Killmonger comes across as the most indelible character from that movie.)

Other thoughts:
•Speaking of Killmonger, his appearance as Shuri's ancestor was an absolute highlight of the movie. Not just because Michael B. Jordan just radiates charisma, but because it was genuinely surprising, absolutely appropriate, and just put so much juice into a moment that felt bound to be a final conversation between Shuri and Ramonda. That version would have been good, of course (because Angela Bassett) but this was an inspired choice.
•I'm aware that a story like this one has to play a sort of Calvinball with languages/polyglotism, but damn. It makes total sense, of course, that the main characters would be conversant in English, French and Haitian Creole in addition to Xhosa. It's wild to me that so many of them would apparently know Mayan, and that Mayan wouldn't have evolved beyond recognition after centuries of being spoken by a culture rapidly adapting to living underwater. I'm not enough of a student of history to know how likely it is that Namor, child born under the waves to a Mayan culture, would understand the Spanish spoken by the priest who gave him his name. But whatever, small thing and necessary for the story to work at all.
•How much do Namor and the Talokan people know about the comings and goings of the surface world? It seems like "a lot," but it's unclear how they're getting their information, and their degree of knowledge seems to bounce around a bit. At the very least, Namor doesn't seem to understand just how foolishly he's acting on a diplomatic stage (i.e. that the U.S. wants to destabilize Wakanda, that in any number of outcomes his actions will lead to vibranium in much less trustworthy hands than it is currently, that there are a hell of a lot of superheroes out there that don't live in Wakanda and he's about to get their attention, that while Wakanda might be isolated, a true existence-level threat would have them finding international allies right quick, and on and on. I can buy that Shuri is a teenager (or probably in her twenties now) who basically lives in her lab and isn't the best person to make these arguments, but Ramonda met with him too.
•I, too, really expected Lake Bell's character to last longer, and not even because I recognized her as Lake Bell. She just made a hell of an impression in her small amount of screen time (utterly professionally calm while everyone around her was dying, and then losing it when personally threatened) and I was genuinely shocked that they made that kind of impression and then killed her off immediately.
•I didn't mind the Val and Ross stuff a bit, and wish the move had more time for more of those storylines, tbh, just because the background for this movie isn't just that T'Challa is gone, but that Wakanda is a player now, and other world governments are going to be reacting accordingly. Maybe I just like seeing Richard Schiff in stuff, I dunno.
posted by Navelgazer at 5:56 PM on June 18, 2023 [1 favorite]


I'm guessing they went with Shuri over Nakia because Disney can own Letitia Wright in a way they simply can't with Lupita Nyong'o. Ongoing contracts and control over actors is a huge factor in the MCU.
posted by rikschell at 7:11 AM on June 20, 2023 [1 favorite]


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