The Last of Us: When We Are In Need Show Only
March 5, 2023 8:06 PM - Season 1, Episode 8 - Subscribe
Ellie struggles to keep Joel alive, but in order to do that she'll have to deal the violent members of a new group.
"Baby girl."
Joel truly has a daughter again, and she is very much in his mold. Capable of great violence to a degree that she's never experienced and possibly didn't know she could do. But Joel knows all about that, how the world changed and how he changed just in order to survive. At least he'll be able to walk her through the emotional aftermath.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 PM on March 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
Joel truly has a daughter again, and she is very much in his mold. Capable of great violence to a degree that she's never experienced and possibly didn't know she could do. But Joel knows all about that, how the world changed and how he changed just in order to survive. At least he'll be able to walk her through the emotional aftermath.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:13 PM on March 5, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'll be blunt: this one didn't impress me as much as previous installments had; I kind of knew where they were going when they talked about food running low, and having an ear (of all things) just kind of laying out there where Ellie could see it... and the attempted rape in the middle of a building that was burning down around them, and how not one of the other community members came out to see what was going on even though their central community hall was burning down. (I mean, I get that they're probably intimidated by David and his goon squad, but still...)
Regardless, it's still great TV, and I'm not ready for the season to end next week. Ellie's increasing desperation, how she handles the two guys after finding them with the deer, and her pretending to have infected David, were all really impressive. And David was plausible as someone who was just trying to do right by his group, at least until his monologue post-ear-discovery. (By the way, Troy Baker, who played David's main lieutenant, voice-acted Joel in the game.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:09 PM on March 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
Regardless, it's still great TV, and I'm not ready for the season to end next week. Ellie's increasing desperation, how she handles the two guys after finding them with the deer, and her pretending to have infected David, were all really impressive. And David was plausible as someone who was just trying to do right by his group, at least until his monologue post-ear-discovery. (By the way, Troy Baker, who played David's main lieutenant, voice-acted Joel in the game.)
posted by Halloween Jack at 9:09 PM on March 5, 2023 [9 favorites]
I liked that Ellie dealt with her situation largely on her own, that the show didn't take her agency away from her and that Joel was there only at the end to let her know she was safe, not as her rescuer.
That said, I called "cannibal cult" as soon as the meaningful exchange of glances happened over burying the girls father. And why no one else came running while the place was burning down was a big question for me, as was the fact of the attempted rape in a burning building.
That being said, an enjoyable, tight little episode.
posted by nubs at 10:52 PM on March 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
That said, I called "cannibal cult" as soon as the meaningful exchange of glances happened over burying the girls father. And why no one else came running while the place was burning down was a big question for me, as was the fact of the attempted rape in a burning building.
That being said, an enjoyable, tight little episode.
posted by nubs at 10:52 PM on March 5, 2023 [13 favorites]
No one came running to the burning building because it’s the place where on some level everyone knows people are butchered.
So Ellie stumbles out of their hiding place, with a gun she can barely carry, identifies two deer, shoots one, and tracks it to it final resting place.
Compare that to two schmucks, who despite having more hunting experience than Ellie, haven’t been able to find a deer for weeks that stumble on the dead deer. One of them turns to the other and asks if they should just take it. Someone shot that deer and they’re not going to be far behind.
posted by rdr at 11:08 PM on March 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
So Ellie stumbles out of their hiding place, with a gun she can barely carry, identifies two deer, shoots one, and tracks it to it final resting place.
Compare that to two schmucks, who despite having more hunting experience than Ellie, haven’t been able to find a deer for weeks that stumble on the dead deer. One of them turns to the other and asks if they should just take it. Someone shot that deer and they’re not going to be far behind.
posted by rdr at 11:08 PM on March 5, 2023 [3 favorites]
There were numerous... implausibilities in this one, it seemed. I enjoyed it overall but it didn't seem as tightly plotted as usual. That cult leader man sure turned on the scary though. Lots of great acting.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:27 PM on March 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 11:27 PM on March 5, 2023 [2 favorites]
Oof this was a hard episode to watch.
The Last of Us Recap: The Hunger Club [Vulture / Archive]
The Last of Us’s Troy Baker on Watching Pedro Pascal Play the Role He Originated [Vulture / Archive]
posted by ellieBOA at 4:48 AM on March 6, 2023
The Last of Us Recap: The Hunger Club [Vulture / Archive]
The Last of Us’s Troy Baker on Watching Pedro Pascal Play the Role He Originated [Vulture / Archive]
posted by ellieBOA at 4:48 AM on March 6, 2023
In the UK at least, among the usual list of content warnings, was a warning of sexual violence. It made the whole 45 minutes unbearably tense. I had to pause twice and at one point checked this thread for reassurance. If it wasn’t for the first comment saying how good it was I might have bailed early on.
Which is I guess to say that this would have been immeasurably improved if it had “merely” a sadistic cannibal as the protagonist, rather than a rapist too. Good rule of thumb in general, that.
“Everything happens for a reason” though, apparently, so maybe they felt like the attempted rape was for some reason an important plot point.
Re the lack of people at the end, that was sure weird but provided some much needed respite!
posted by chill at 4:56 AM on March 6, 2023
Which is I guess to say that this would have been immeasurably improved if it had “merely” a sadistic cannibal as the protagonist, rather than a rapist too. Good rule of thumb in general, that.
“Everything happens for a reason” though, apparently, so maybe they felt like the attempted rape was for some reason an important plot point.
Re the lack of people at the end, that was sure weird but provided some much needed respite!
posted by chill at 4:56 AM on March 6, 2023
I liked that Ellie dealt with her situation largely on her own, that the show didn't take her agency away from her and that Joel was there only at the end to let her know she was safe, not as her rescuer.
Seconded. That was the best thing about this fairly ordinary episode that felt like (don't hate me) a very good early Walking Dead installment. I'm not sure I like the fact that there's almost no ongoing story here; it's been feeling like "standard apocalypse story of the week" with no larger arc other than the generally great acting and the developing relationship between Ellie and Joel. Is that a consequence of the video game origins? Not sure, but after binging HBO's Station Eleven this week, which had a very clear opening out, enriching and then circling back of multiple character arcs to a satisfying conclusion, The Last of Us's approach since the fabulous episode 3 seems pretty simple, and sometimes bordering on juvenile, story-wise.
The idiot ball moment of the rest of the Silver Lake community conveniently disappearing during the entire time Ellie was screaming, murdering, getting shot at, banging through the place, setting it on fire and their Dear Leader shrieking "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I COULD HAVE GIVEN YOU!!!" was just too much. After the very poignant Joel/Ellie hug I expected to see some explanation for that, but....nothing. I checked out at some level then, and have once again revised my expectations downward for what this show will be able to deliver. I'll revise them upward if the start of the next show doesn't just pretend that was normal.
It's still a fun watch, but the disappointing way it botched Kathleen's story in the 2nd Kansas City episode soured me on the writing's depth, and since then the merely good/decent storytelling (with some excellent moments scattered through, yes) has left me a bit sad for the show's potential.
[Seriously, if you liked episode 3 you should watch Station Eleven. It has its flaws (doling out snippets of backstory in a needlessly frustrating way early on, for one) and has a few idiot ball moments of its own, but if what you want in an apocalypse story is rich emotional dives into character that show definitely delivers in the last half of the season. Have tissues handy.]
[Also seriously, if we don't get at least one flashback about Joel and Tess through the years in the (way too early) season finale, I fear I will never recover. Give us those flashbacks, please!]
posted by mediareport at 5:52 AM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Seconded. That was the best thing about this fairly ordinary episode that felt like (don't hate me) a very good early Walking Dead installment. I'm not sure I like the fact that there's almost no ongoing story here; it's been feeling like "standard apocalypse story of the week" with no larger arc other than the generally great acting and the developing relationship between Ellie and Joel. Is that a consequence of the video game origins? Not sure, but after binging HBO's Station Eleven this week, which had a very clear opening out, enriching and then circling back of multiple character arcs to a satisfying conclusion, The Last of Us's approach since the fabulous episode 3 seems pretty simple, and sometimes bordering on juvenile, story-wise.
The idiot ball moment of the rest of the Silver Lake community conveniently disappearing during the entire time Ellie was screaming, murdering, getting shot at, banging through the place, setting it on fire and their Dear Leader shrieking "YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I COULD HAVE GIVEN YOU!!!" was just too much. After the very poignant Joel/Ellie hug I expected to see some explanation for that, but....nothing. I checked out at some level then, and have once again revised my expectations downward for what this show will be able to deliver. I'll revise them upward if the start of the next show doesn't just pretend that was normal.
It's still a fun watch, but the disappointing way it botched Kathleen's story in the 2nd Kansas City episode soured me on the writing's depth, and since then the merely good/decent storytelling (with some excellent moments scattered through, yes) has left me a bit sad for the show's potential.
[Seriously, if you liked episode 3 you should watch Station Eleven. It has its flaws (doling out snippets of backstory in a needlessly frustrating way early on, for one) and has a few idiot ball moments of its own, but if what you want in an apocalypse story is rich emotional dives into character that show definitely delivers in the last half of the season. Have tissues handy.]
[Also seriously, if we don't get at least one flashback about Joel and Tess through the years in the (way too early) season finale, I fear I will never recover. Give us those flashbacks, please!]
posted by mediareport at 5:52 AM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
PLEASE stop talking about how the show differs from the game in the SHOW ONLY thread. Just stop.
posted by mediareport at 5:54 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 5:54 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Something I haven't seen mentioned here (or elsewhere), and I'm aware that this a fictional show and suspension of disbelief etc. How did 2 men manage to drag a full-grown horse all the way back to the village? Average weight 950 lbs?
posted by cozenedindigo at 6:22 AM on March 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by cozenedindigo at 6:22 AM on March 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I just imagine the rest of the (probably unwitting) cannibal cult sitting in their cabins and watching the fire and thinking Oh huh, looks like David and his goons are getting fucked up over there. Bummer. Well, I'm sure he doesn't need my help. Guess I'll just wait here until he tells me what to do. He knows better than I do, after all.
posted by Etrigan at 6:38 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 6:38 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Or maybe they're relieved in that moment (before the thoughts of the difficult future sink in).
posted by kokaku at 6:47 AM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 6:47 AM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Mod note: One comment removed due to violating the "Show Only" point of this thread. Not a big deal, but please keep the spoiler policy in mind, thanks. Folks who wish to talk about the game and the show can do so in another thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:49 AM on March 6, 2023
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 6:49 AM on March 6, 2023
Guess I'll just wait here until he tells me what to do. He knows better than I do, after all.
Yep, there are lots of possible reasons for the absence of the Silver Lake community; my brain immediately went to "OMG they're going to show us 20 dead bodies that Apparently Unstoppable Killing Machine Joel murdered" but your option makes more sense.
My point is this: to not even *acknowledge* the absence at all - even with a momentary shot of all of them cowering and confused as those three gunshots ring out - is just plain insulting to the audience.
Took me right out of the show.
posted by mediareport at 7:34 AM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Yep, there are lots of possible reasons for the absence of the Silver Lake community; my brain immediately went to "OMG they're going to show us 20 dead bodies that Apparently Unstoppable Killing Machine Joel murdered" but your option makes more sense.
My point is this: to not even *acknowledge* the absence at all - even with a momentary shot of all of them cowering and confused as those three gunshots ring out - is just plain insulting to the audience.
Took me right out of the show.
posted by mediareport at 7:34 AM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Agree with the weird absence of the Silver Lake community, although perhaps Joel took out pretty much all of the violent fighters, and then Ellie took care of one of the butchers, so maybe there really wasn't anyone left who would usually go running toward a dangerous situation, and the rest were so used to sitting and waiting while others took action that they continued to do. I think this hole could be fixed pretty easily in the next episode, but I agree that a shot of people hiding and someone saying "David and James will handle this" would have helped a lot.
My main annoyance is I'm really kind of sick of rapey authoritarian cults in apocalyptic shows and I think it would be refreshing, for a change, if our protagonists stumbled upon a kind and humble religious community that helped each other generously because of their religious commitments, but that doesn't ever seem to happen.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:46 AM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
My main annoyance is I'm really kind of sick of rapey authoritarian cults in apocalyptic shows and I think it would be refreshing, for a change, if our protagonists stumbled upon a kind and humble religious community that helped each other generously because of their religious commitments, but that doesn't ever seem to happen.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:46 AM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
*three gunshots ring out*
shot of Silver Lake followers somewhere hearing them, looking around at each other, concerned and scared
Silver Lake follower #1: "What was that?"
Silver Lake follower #2 (perhaps the woman who asked "What's that?" about the stew meat): "Do you really want to go over there to find out?"
I'd have been satisfied with something like that. 5 seconds.
posted by mediareport at 7:48 AM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
shot of Silver Lake followers somewhere hearing them, looking around at each other, concerned and scared
Silver Lake follower #1: "What was that?"
Silver Lake follower #2 (perhaps the woman who asked "What's that?" about the stew meat): "Do you really want to go over there to find out?"
I'd have been satisfied with something like that. 5 seconds.
posted by mediareport at 7:48 AM on March 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
How did 2 men manage to drag a full-grown horse all the way back to the village? Average weight 950 lbs?
Ha. Also: the way no one in this alternate future seems to know that using a flashlight at night inside a building with windows makes you extremely visible to folks looking for you. Boston, Kansas City, Joel in the slaughterhouse this week...takes me out every time.
posted by mediareport at 7:56 AM on March 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
Ha. Also: the way no one in this alternate future seems to know that using a flashlight at night inside a building with windows makes you extremely visible to folks looking for you. Boston, Kansas City, Joel in the slaughterhouse this week...takes me out every time.
posted by mediareport at 7:56 AM on March 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
just coming in to second Brandon Blatcher's comment up top. "Baby girl" broke me. Joel has finally taken the risk and gone all-in on accepting her, loving her, while knowing full well how devastating that can be. And yes, he's the one who can help her deal with the trauma.
Also seconding the A-plus for Ellie's agency, and not making her the damsel for Joel's rescue.
I understand (I think I do, anyway) how the rape scene is problematic. That said, it didn't feel out of nowhere; David was exactly that sort of guy. And it was a bit of Chekhov's gun from episode three (iirc) where Joel said if people found them, it would be violence "and worse" or something like that.
I'm pretty involved in my (very progressive) church and yeah, it would be nice to see that sort of depiction for once. But maybe this was an intentional compare-and-contrast to Socialist Jackson Hole from two eps back. Heavy-handed, yes, but it's a messed-up world now....
I did wonder why no one came to put out the fire on their communal building. It's pretty clear that no one's attached to child-beater Preacher David and the goon squad, and maybe that's it. but yeah, should have addressed that.
posted by martin q blank at 8:45 AM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Also seconding the A-plus for Ellie's agency, and not making her the damsel for Joel's rescue.
I understand (I think I do, anyway) how the rape scene is problematic. That said, it didn't feel out of nowhere; David was exactly that sort of guy. And it was a bit of Chekhov's gun from episode three (iirc) where Joel said if people found them, it would be violence "and worse" or something like that.
I'm pretty involved in my (very progressive) church and yeah, it would be nice to see that sort of depiction for once. But maybe this was an intentional compare-and-contrast to Socialist Jackson Hole from two eps back. Heavy-handed, yes, but it's a messed-up world now....
I did wonder why no one came to put out the fire on their communal building. It's pretty clear that no one's attached to child-beater Preacher David and the goon squad, and maybe that's it. but yeah, should have addressed that.
posted by martin q blank at 8:45 AM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I understand (I think I do, anyway) how the rape scene is problematic. That said, it didn't feel out of nowhere; David was exactly that sort of guy.
Yeah, but it wasn't necessary. We already knew he was abusive and manipulative and murderous and a cannibal. We got it. He was definitely the bad guy. And he could have just wanted to kill her because he was abusive and manipulative and murderous without including the bog-standard "I like it when they fight!" cherry on top.
posted by Etrigan at 8:56 AM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Yeah, but it wasn't necessary. We already knew he was abusive and manipulative and murderous and a cannibal. We got it. He was definitely the bad guy. And he could have just wanted to kill her because he was abusive and manipulative and murderous without including the bog-standard "I like it when they fight!" cherry on top.
posted by Etrigan at 8:56 AM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
This one felt a little rushed to me -- David's face-heel turn moved a little too fast and was a little too telegraphed for my taste. The actor did an excellent job in the time he had -- I just think that we didn't have quite enough time for the writing to get us plausibly from Point A to Point B. That said, I don't know that I really would have wanted to spend another week with creepy cannibal cult leader. Truly, he made my skin crawl (again, props to the actor, Scott Shepherd)!
I loved Troy Baker's acting, too. He brought so much tension & depth to what was really just a little cameo. I was holding out hope all the way up to the end that he would launch a coup against David, and that would be Ellie's chance to break free.
Ellie's agency was great and everything, but -- it cost her. When she stumbled out into the snow, she was completely gone behind the eyes. Bella Ramsey is just incredible.
posted by ourobouros at 9:03 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I loved Troy Baker's acting, too. He brought so much tension & depth to what was really just a little cameo. I was holding out hope all the way up to the end that he would launch a coup against David, and that would be Ellie's chance to break free.
Ellie's agency was great and everything, but -- it cost her. When she stumbled out into the snow, she was completely gone behind the eyes. Bella Ramsey is just incredible.
posted by ourobouros at 9:03 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
yeah, Etrigan, that line was awful. agreed. I'll spin your take the other way, though. The violence and cannibalism is maybe less problematic than him leveraging his religious status to abuse women. It wasn't explicit, but he had that line about how he was the girl's daddy now -- the delivery made me think it could be sexual. And the girl's (presumably) mom just silently accepted the abuse. She'd been battered, emotionally if not physically, too. And he was clearly grooming Ellie, from the fire in the woods all the way to the cell door. That's the real monstrosity, the grooming of children and abuse of women. To me, anyway. I understand I'm in the minority here and I'm OK with your take on it.
posted by martin q blank at 9:06 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by martin q blank at 9:06 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I guess I had a different reaction to everyone else on the "why isn't anyone doing anything" re: burning meeting house/former timeshare resort steakhouse.
I honestly just assumed that 1) people are physically and emotionally and spiritually weak there because they're slowly starving to death under a tyrant's rule, so running to put out a fire in the dark wasn't something people had a lot of energy left for; and 2) they'd honestly be better off NOT investigating and simply hoping David got killed during the fracas/building fire... and everyone knew that, too. Especially after 3 more men in their search party didn't come back from the trip that netted them Ellie.
And 3): How would they have even put a blaze like that out? Buckets of water, in the dead of winter? I'm pretty ignorant of how, say, Amish communities handle large building fires. Maybe 20 years later there's still a working fire extinguisher somewhere but I kind of doubt it?
As someone who had to fight off god awful violence of every kind as a child, I found this episode intensely gratifying. 11-year-old me also bit someone hard enough to stop an attack once, and she let out a bloodcurdling scream of triumph when Ellie finally killed David and ran out the front door.
But I also recognized the whimper and blank stare of trauma-numbing dissociation immediately afterwards, too.
And honestly? There are a lot of people in this world that turn a blind eye to atrocities happening right in front of them. Especially when it's in your own "family."
I did briefly wonder if people running in to put out the fire would be how the rest of the community found several dead friends and family hanging in the kitchen/meat locker, though. I feel intensely sorry for the people left to pick up the pieces at the Silverlake Resort. My guess is most or all of them aren't going to stick around or survive through the spring.
I'm not ready for this next and last episode, I fear. I've fallen in love with Ellie and Joel, as messed up as both of them are.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:22 AM on March 6, 2023 [19 favorites]
I honestly just assumed that 1) people are physically and emotionally and spiritually weak there because they're slowly starving to death under a tyrant's rule, so running to put out a fire in the dark wasn't something people had a lot of energy left for; and 2) they'd honestly be better off NOT investigating and simply hoping David got killed during the fracas/building fire... and everyone knew that, too. Especially after 3 more men in their search party didn't come back from the trip that netted them Ellie.
And 3): How would they have even put a blaze like that out? Buckets of water, in the dead of winter? I'm pretty ignorant of how, say, Amish communities handle large building fires. Maybe 20 years later there's still a working fire extinguisher somewhere but I kind of doubt it?
As someone who had to fight off god awful violence of every kind as a child, I found this episode intensely gratifying. 11-year-old me also bit someone hard enough to stop an attack once, and she let out a bloodcurdling scream of triumph when Ellie finally killed David and ran out the front door.
But I also recognized the whimper and blank stare of trauma-numbing dissociation immediately afterwards, too.
And honestly? There are a lot of people in this world that turn a blind eye to atrocities happening right in front of them. Especially when it's in your own "family."
I did briefly wonder if people running in to put out the fire would be how the rest of the community found several dead friends and family hanging in the kitchen/meat locker, though. I feel intensely sorry for the people left to pick up the pieces at the Silverlake Resort. My guess is most or all of them aren't going to stick around or survive through the spring.
I'm not ready for this next and last episode, I fear. I've fallen in love with Ellie and Joel, as messed up as both of them are.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:22 AM on March 6, 2023 [19 favorites]
I didn't immediately recognize the burning building as the communal hall, so I just assumed it was a separate building in a restricted area somewhat isolated from the main part of town—which would make sense if that's where the cult leader and his crew have set up the abattoir and human meat locker. It does make less sense if those are the same two buildings.
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:33 AM on March 6, 2023
posted by Atom Eyes at 9:33 AM on March 6, 2023
...plain insulting to the audience
I think that's a bit much. We know the showrunners care about the material and care about the audience and their craft. Usually programme makers get accussed of spoonfeeding us, so leaving us to draw our own conclusions isn't necessarily an insult. Perhaps it was an imposed time constraint, or perhaps there was a scene that sheds light on the situation, but would have taken us away from Bella Ramsay's powerful performance and Ellie's touching reunion with Joel.
My take fwiw is that the town lived in fear of David, they're tired and hungry people who knew the pies were people, and so, fuck David I guess.
posted by chill at 9:40 AM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think that's a bit much. We know the showrunners care about the material and care about the audience and their craft. Usually programme makers get accussed of spoonfeeding us, so leaving us to draw our own conclusions isn't necessarily an insult. Perhaps it was an imposed time constraint, or perhaps there was a scene that sheds light on the situation, but would have taken us away from Bella Ramsay's powerful performance and Ellie's touching reunion with Joel.
My take fwiw is that the town lived in fear of David, they're tired and hungry people who knew the pies were people, and so, fuck David I guess.
posted by chill at 9:40 AM on March 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
MediaReport, I second that recommendation for Station Eleven. Honestly shocked it didn't get more Emmy noms for the acting alone -- I was skeptical of watching a pandemic-themed show during what felt like a difficult time in our own pandemic, but it was a gamble that paid off deeply for me. I loved it!
It's been really strange, awful and enlightening to watch stuff like Station Eleven and The Last of Us during these "unprecedented times." Mostly because I always imagined pandemics like these happening a lot, um, faster than what we seem to be experiencing IRL, though TLOU certainly feels relatable in that some of them are never really "over."
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:45 AM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
It's been really strange, awful and enlightening to watch stuff like Station Eleven and The Last of Us during these "unprecedented times." Mostly because I always imagined pandemics like these happening a lot, um, faster than what we seem to be experiencing IRL, though TLOU certainly feels relatable in that some of them are never really "over."
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 9:45 AM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
I'll be blunt: this one didn't impress me as much as previous installments had; I kind of knew where they were going
I feel like that's generally the case with The Last of Us. Every Sunday, I look forward to watching this show. And then I don't think about until the next Sunday. It's not mind-blowing, it's just basically competent in a week-to-week way that feels increasingly impressive after enduring years of Netflix flab.
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:56 AM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I feel like that's generally the case with The Last of Us. Every Sunday, I look forward to watching this show. And then I don't think about until the next Sunday. It's not mind-blowing, it's just basically competent in a week-to-week way that feels increasingly impressive after enduring years of Netflix flab.
posted by grandiloquiet at 9:56 AM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
Connecting these guys to the party they met on the campus who attached Joel was a good idea, I get what a vaguely Christian sort-of cult would be doing in zombie hellscape America, I didn’t hate it—but it’s probably my least favorite so far. (I had read some kinda-spoilers that this was going to be the cannibal cultist massacre episode, I will say this was much more reserved than the words “cannibal cultist massacre” led me to expect; this is not a criticism.)
I think part of it is that the two leads have spent the past two episodes, if not separated, then not really interacting. In fairness, these episodes did legit bear on their plots and characters like Bill and Frank’s story did; I think I get why they did it this way and absolutely did not need to spend two or three episodes to settle in and get to know these cult people. But I don’t know that the actual episode they made totally succeeds for me at either the story it’s telling or in picking back up on the momentum of Kansas City and Wyoming, even if it ends with Ellie and Joel back on the road, fucked up and clinging to each other though they might be.
I was actually doing extremely okay with zero threats of sexual violence against Ellie, and come down on the side that David was probably evil enough without also making him a serial rapist at the last second (and like, even putting aside everything else about that scene, he is about to take his pants off in a room that is very much on fire, this man is not irrational or suicidal, what is step three of this plan.) This is a personal preference and not even a dealbreaker, I get that this is a terribly broken society and sexual violence is surely a real fear and threat for Ellie (which could be conveyed, gosh, any number of other ways), the creators have talked about realism a bunch, but also I wondered if someone made a wish on a monkey’s paw to see a Divacup on television and so this is what we get. In any case, lo I will sigh and move another show off the pile of Shows That Don’t Sexually Terrorize The Female Characters.
All that said, the legitimately skin-crawly parts of the episode for me were when David was just telling her all the things they had in common and what a great team they’d make. That he’s managed to keep a group together makes me think he’s got some genuine perceptiveness to work with, combined with extremely blatant manipulation that surely works for him on some percentage of people (and they I guess eat the rest.) But that's a bad dude in a way a lot of people probably found extremely familiar.
As freaked out as Ellie’s been that her friend and protector was injured and helpless, I think it scared Joel about as bad to see Ellie that overcome at the end (Bella Ramsey did such a great job this ep.) That’s a frightening thing to see but surely he’s seen (and created!) his share of traumatized people, it’s different when it’s your kid who’s stayed cool through truly heinous shit and been out of your sight with gross and angry adult men all day. (Was the attempted rape in there because they felt nothing else, including almost being eaten, would believably push her to that extreme of traumatized vulnerability that would make Joel drop any pretense of treating her as anything but a daughter? That doesn’t make me more generously disposed to including it, but mechanically, is it there to do anything other than make David a bigger piece of shit right before Ellie murderizes him?)
This is the second episode where someone tells Ellie she’s a natural leader, and the FEDRA guy was not obviously shopping for a child bride so I guess we’re taking it as fact, but I don’t know we’ve really had a chance to see that in her yet? And that’s not a knock on Ellie at all, she’s clearly so smart, capable, caring, and resourceful, but if anything she strikes me more as a protector like Joel or Bill more than someone who’d be drawn to mediating drainage disputes at the hippie commune council meeting. (Okay, in a few years she could probably overthrow a FEDRA regime without accidentally feeding the whole town to zombies, but that’s not a HIGH bar.)
TLOU's not going to be an all-timer for me based on this season, but I'll miss having it to look forward to on Sunday nights, and these posts.
posted by jameaterblues at 10:59 AM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
I think part of it is that the two leads have spent the past two episodes, if not separated, then not really interacting. In fairness, these episodes did legit bear on their plots and characters like Bill and Frank’s story did; I think I get why they did it this way and absolutely did not need to spend two or three episodes to settle in and get to know these cult people. But I don’t know that the actual episode they made totally succeeds for me at either the story it’s telling or in picking back up on the momentum of Kansas City and Wyoming, even if it ends with Ellie and Joel back on the road, fucked up and clinging to each other though they might be.
I was actually doing extremely okay with zero threats of sexual violence against Ellie, and come down on the side that David was probably evil enough without also making him a serial rapist at the last second (and like, even putting aside everything else about that scene, he is about to take his pants off in a room that is very much on fire, this man is not irrational or suicidal, what is step three of this plan.) This is a personal preference and not even a dealbreaker, I get that this is a terribly broken society and sexual violence is surely a real fear and threat for Ellie (which could be conveyed, gosh, any number of other ways), the creators have talked about realism a bunch, but also I wondered if someone made a wish on a monkey’s paw to see a Divacup on television and so this is what we get. In any case, lo I will sigh and move another show off the pile of Shows That Don’t Sexually Terrorize The Female Characters.
All that said, the legitimately skin-crawly parts of the episode for me were when David was just telling her all the things they had in common and what a great team they’d make. That he’s managed to keep a group together makes me think he’s got some genuine perceptiveness to work with, combined with extremely blatant manipulation that surely works for him on some percentage of people (and they I guess eat the rest.) But that's a bad dude in a way a lot of people probably found extremely familiar.
As freaked out as Ellie’s been that her friend and protector was injured and helpless, I think it scared Joel about as bad to see Ellie that overcome at the end (Bella Ramsey did such a great job this ep.) That’s a frightening thing to see but surely he’s seen (and created!) his share of traumatized people, it’s different when it’s your kid who’s stayed cool through truly heinous shit and been out of your sight with gross and angry adult men all day. (Was the attempted rape in there because they felt nothing else, including almost being eaten, would believably push her to that extreme of traumatized vulnerability that would make Joel drop any pretense of treating her as anything but a daughter? That doesn’t make me more generously disposed to including it, but mechanically, is it there to do anything other than make David a bigger piece of shit right before Ellie murderizes him?)
This is the second episode where someone tells Ellie she’s a natural leader, and the FEDRA guy was not obviously shopping for a child bride so I guess we’re taking it as fact, but I don’t know we’ve really had a chance to see that in her yet? And that’s not a knock on Ellie at all, she’s clearly so smart, capable, caring, and resourceful, but if anything she strikes me more as a protector like Joel or Bill more than someone who’d be drawn to mediating drainage disputes at the hippie commune council meeting. (Okay, in a few years she could probably overthrow a FEDRA regime without accidentally feeding the whole town to zombies, but that’s not a HIGH bar.)
TLOU's not going to be an all-timer for me based on this season, but I'll miss having it to look forward to on Sunday nights, and these posts.
posted by jameaterblues at 10:59 AM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
This was a really difficult episode for me to watch from the minute Scott Shepherd appeared onscreen, given his history of intimate partner violence.
He gives an excellent performance, yes, and no, no one should be defined by their worst acts. But, goddamn, it took me right out of the story.
posted by A Sock in the Hand at 11:28 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
He gives an excellent performance, yes, and no, no one should be defined by their worst acts. But, goddamn, it took me right out of the story.
posted by A Sock in the Hand at 11:28 AM on March 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
This is the second episode where someone tells Ellie she’s a natural leader, and the FEDRA guy was not obviously shopping for a child bride so I guess we’re taking it as fact, but I don’t know we’ve really had a chance to see that in her yet? And that’s not a knock on Ellie at all
I had the same reaction; the show is telling us she's a natural leader, but I haven't seen it yet. I felt the same way with Katherine; the show likes to tell us people are leaders, but I'm not sure it's shown us many. It's given us survivors and the deep relationships they form.
Part of the reason I felt ok with this episode is that I didn't need creepy cannibal cult leader to linger around for two episodes - to me it was obvious something was off with David from the beginning, and it got us there in a tight 45 minutish episode (in TWD he would have been around for a season at least); as someone said above, it feels like competent storytelling in an age of bloat. I was surprised at how much this episode did in its timespan. But, that leaves me wondering because there are lots of elements in this episode that make it clear the writers are good at showing rather than telling, so I'm a little confused about why we keep hearing Ellie described that way. Maybe its because we never see her with a group - she's either with Joel or by herself.
Maybe they are setting something up for S2. As for me, I've enjoyed this ride but its not been the compelling need to watch I was hoping for.
posted by nubs at 11:35 AM on March 6, 2023
I had the same reaction; the show is telling us she's a natural leader, but I haven't seen it yet. I felt the same way with Katherine; the show likes to tell us people are leaders, but I'm not sure it's shown us many. It's given us survivors and the deep relationships they form.
Part of the reason I felt ok with this episode is that I didn't need creepy cannibal cult leader to linger around for two episodes - to me it was obvious something was off with David from the beginning, and it got us there in a tight 45 minutish episode (in TWD he would have been around for a season at least); as someone said above, it feels like competent storytelling in an age of bloat. I was surprised at how much this episode did in its timespan. But, that leaves me wondering because there are lots of elements in this episode that make it clear the writers are good at showing rather than telling, so I'm a little confused about why we keep hearing Ellie described that way. Maybe its because we never see her with a group - she's either with Joel or by herself.
Maybe they are setting something up for S2. As for me, I've enjoyed this ride but its not been the compelling need to watch I was hoping for.
posted by nubs at 11:35 AM on March 6, 2023
This was a really difficult episode for me to watch from the minute Scott Shepherd appeared onscreen, given his history of intimate partner violence.
Oh no -- that really sucks. I'm sorry to hear it / thanks for sharing it.
posted by ourobouros at 11:37 AM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Oh no -- that really sucks. I'm sorry to hear it / thanks for sharing it.
posted by ourobouros at 11:37 AM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
This is the second episode where someone tells Ellie she’s a natural leader, and the FEDRA guy was not obviously shopping for a child bride so I guess we’re taking it as fact, but I don’t know we’ve really had a chance to see that in her yet?
I think they are just noticing the fire and the sheer force of will. It is a bit of a leap to go from that to "natural leader" but then, it is the apocalypse, so "let's all just follow the hardest hardass we can find" is pretty standard operating behavior, I guess.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:37 AM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I think they are just noticing the fire and the sheer force of will. It is a bit of a leap to go from that to "natural leader" but then, it is the apocalypse, so "let's all just follow the hardest hardass we can find" is pretty standard operating behavior, I guess.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:37 AM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
(in TWD he would have been around for a season at least)
Holy shit, yeah, though the same thing, verbatim.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:38 AM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Holy shit, yeah, though the same thing, verbatim.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 11:38 AM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
This episode really felt like a video game, in a bad way. One-dimensional unambiguously evil bad guys on an irrational revenge quest, an abduction foiled by fighting and killing, and a lot of plot armor protecting Ellie. It's the same kind of stuff that led me to stop watching TWD after the second season.
Ellie's struggles to keep Joel alive through the winter would have made a more interesting story.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:06 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ellie's struggles to keep Joel alive through the winter would have made a more interesting story.
posted by qxntpqbbbqxl at 1:06 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
That interview with Troy Baker above is really good, thanks! And the look on B.R’s face as Ellie puts and end to David was, really, really good.
posted by Iteki at 1:11 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by Iteki at 1:11 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
The cutting between David explaining his many-splendored awfulness as just the things he had to do to protect his people intercut with Joel savagely dispensing with Marco and Timothy was like prime-era TWD. It was well-done, and I get why they felt they needed to do some episodes with actually dangerous bad guys in their apocalypse. It tracks as something that would happen.
But man, I hope there's not a lot more of that coming. Robert Kirkman has beaten the Actually, Mankind Is the Most Dangerous Monster horse to death, had him taxidermied, reconstructed, and stood back up, then beat him to shreds again. We are well and fully stocked on that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:21 PM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
But man, I hope there's not a lot more of that coming. Robert Kirkman has beaten the Actually, Mankind Is the Most Dangerous Monster horse to death, had him taxidermied, reconstructed, and stood back up, then beat him to shreds again. We are well and fully stocked on that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 1:21 PM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
The Vulture interview was interesting- I'm not sure that the show really conveyed that James was more worried that Ellie was going to take his place as Vice Asshole than he was wanting to get revenge. I didn't really buy him as Vice-Asshole either though, so I'm sure that's part of the problem for me. He seemed to have zero leadership qualities and I assumed he was just an old friend of the Chief Creep that had that secondary role by default.
I remain unconvinced that Ellie would confront those two taking her deer while on her own. She's really smart and pretty slippery, and has been evading humans and shrooms for months. And then to go into a building to chat around a fire, where an ambush could easily take place. That just does not ring true to me.
Was the attempted rape in there because they felt nothing else, including almost being eaten, would believably push her to that extreme of traumatized vulnerability that would make Joel drop any pretense of treating her as anything but a daughter? That doesn’t make me more generously disposed to including it, but mechanically, is it there to do anything other than make David a bigger piece of shit right before Ellie murderizes him?
This was well put, and helped crystalize that, for me, that extra bit of sexual violence was extraneous. I am perfectly capable of imagining things going that way without it being made explicit.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:58 PM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
I remain unconvinced that Ellie would confront those two taking her deer while on her own. She's really smart and pretty slippery, and has been evading humans and shrooms for months. And then to go into a building to chat around a fire, where an ambush could easily take place. That just does not ring true to me.
Was the attempted rape in there because they felt nothing else, including almost being eaten, would believably push her to that extreme of traumatized vulnerability that would make Joel drop any pretense of treating her as anything but a daughter? That doesn’t make me more generously disposed to including it, but mechanically, is it there to do anything other than make David a bigger piece of shit right before Ellie murderizes him?
This was well put, and helped crystalize that, for me, that extra bit of sexual violence was extraneous. I am perfectly capable of imagining things going that way without it being made explicit.
posted by oneirodynia at 1:58 PM on March 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Agreed that the pant-removal (in a quickly burning building!) and the "I like it when they..." line was completely unneeded. You understood what was going to happen without having to have the bad guy blatantly lay it out for the audience.
I'm cranky about media, and I usually (almost always) have a problem with movies and tv shows being too long and padded out. I really think this show could have used a few more episodes. I loved the Bill & Frank episode*, but it took a lot of time away from the main story. Same thing with last week's episode at the mall.** Huge jumps of time and geography happen in this show, and I think we need more time with Ellie and Joel together. The fact that the season ends next week just means I think they told this story way too quickly. I'm not clamoring for more zombies or more shootouts. But I'm having a hard time buying the real bonding of Joel & Ellie despite the excellent job the actors are doing.
Nothing that anyone who liked the Bill & Frank episode should watch Station Eleven. Bill & Frank could have been an episode from that show. I wasn't crazy about the way Station Eleven was near the end of the series, but the ride to get to the end was amazing television.
*Again, I thought the episode was great. I'm not arguing that it should have been removed.
** Good episode, not as strong as the Bill & Frank episode, but it could have been resolved in 10 minutes
posted by SoberHighland at 4:59 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I'm cranky about media, and I usually (almost always) have a problem with movies and tv shows being too long and padded out. I really think this show could have used a few more episodes. I loved the Bill & Frank episode*, but it took a lot of time away from the main story. Same thing with last week's episode at the mall.** Huge jumps of time and geography happen in this show, and I think we need more time with Ellie and Joel together. The fact that the season ends next week just means I think they told this story way too quickly. I'm not clamoring for more zombies or more shootouts. But I'm having a hard time buying the real bonding of Joel & Ellie despite the excellent job the actors are doing.
Nothing that anyone who liked the Bill & Frank episode should watch Station Eleven. Bill & Frank could have been an episode from that show. I wasn't crazy about the way Station Eleven was near the end of the series, but the ride to get to the end was amazing television.
*Again, I thought the episode was great. I'm not arguing that it should have been removed.
** Good episode, not as strong as the Bill & Frank episode, but it could have been resolved in 10 minutes
posted by SoberHighland at 4:59 PM on March 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
My analysis, and apologies for being blunt. The David character was pure evil in a different way than the other "bad guys" we've seen so far. He's a narcissistic cult leader, hiding his ego in bible-speak. People like that rape people. It's one of the ways they exert power. It's horrifying, but in terms of the character, it would have been more surprising if he hadn't attempted rape. Ellie would have been a trophy for him. Hooray for the writers empowering her to save herself. And no, I don't think it was weird that the poor, sad, hungry cult members didn't get involved. Their spirits were broken by him.
posted by tizzie at 6:50 PM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by tizzie at 6:50 PM on March 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I enjoyed watching Ellie stab the shit out of the child rapist cannibalist preacher guy. As the discussion here says, a lot of what's in this episode is ridiculous. It still worked for me emotionally.
The deeper thing here is how Ellie cares for Joel. Takes care of him, finds medicine for him, shares a scrap of food with him.
posted by Nelson at 7:10 PM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
The deeper thing here is how Ellie cares for Joel. Takes care of him, finds medicine for him, shares a scrap of food with him.
posted by Nelson at 7:10 PM on March 6, 2023 [4 favorites]
I wondered if pre-outbreak David was a pedophile school teacher.
posted by oldnumberseven at 8:15 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by oldnumberseven at 8:15 PM on March 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
It seemed like there was a mini-blizzard outside so people in other buildings were probably too distracted to pay attention to what was going on elsewhere in the resort, much less too cold to go investigate.
posted by Apocryphon at 10:59 PM on March 6, 2023
posted by Apocryphon at 10:59 PM on March 6, 2023
We are well and fully stocked on that.
Also, the show has already made it abundantly clear that Joel is a violent man with a dark past, I don't think we should be celebrating him torturing someone (remember back when 24 being used to support War on Terror policies was a big deal?), much less murdering another man in a rage. There's a moral nihilism there that really drags down the humanity and lightness this show tries to embody in other times.
And also, as with the Kansas City revolutionaries, the antagonists are all meant to be somewhat humanized in this show. Now I think that punk kid in Kathleen's group acted like a dangerous raider, just like the guy who jumped Joel at the university. They certainly didn't act like they were deserving of the slack their loved ones cut them. But at the same time, the hunting party in this episode were just trying to find the murderer who killed their friend. To dehumanize them simply because they're following a really bad man (who, at that point of the episode, hasn't even been established as such yet), and looking for the good guys is, well, falling for the framing of an omniscient point of view.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:07 PM on March 6, 2023
Also, the show has already made it abundantly clear that Joel is a violent man with a dark past, I don't think we should be celebrating him torturing someone (remember back when 24 being used to support War on Terror policies was a big deal?), much less murdering another man in a rage. There's a moral nihilism there that really drags down the humanity and lightness this show tries to embody in other times.
And also, as with the Kansas City revolutionaries, the antagonists are all meant to be somewhat humanized in this show. Now I think that punk kid in Kathleen's group acted like a dangerous raider, just like the guy who jumped Joel at the university. They certainly didn't act like they were deserving of the slack their loved ones cut them. But at the same time, the hunting party in this episode were just trying to find the murderer who killed their friend. To dehumanize them simply because they're following a really bad man (who, at that point of the episode, hasn't even been established as such yet), and looking for the good guys is, well, falling for the framing of an omniscient point of view.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:07 PM on March 6, 2023
Joel didn't murder anyone in a rage in this episode. Joel is not a good person and he never intended to leave anyone alive from the the moment he stood up from his mattress.
As for the guys in the hunting party why do you think that guy attacked Joel at the University? They're canibals. They're not looking for people to have a nice tea and a chat.
posted by rdr at 11:21 PM on March 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
As for the guys in the hunting party why do you think that guy attacked Joel at the University? They're canibals. They're not looking for people to have a nice tea and a chat.
posted by rdr at 11:21 PM on March 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
I've been reading all the comments with interest, because this episode was significantly not as satisfying as the others. At first, I thought it was because this episode is the first one that does not lean heavily on human relations -- I have fallen in love with the relationship between Joel and Ellie and all the many, many other voices of care and devotion and vulnerability.
I don't know what the relationship is here between the showrunners and the director, but I feel that this director was not up to the job. The belt being unbuckled, not showing 30 seconds of what the other cult people were doing, etc., are all directorial and editing choices -- if you're also listening to the LOU podcast, even that was 25% shorter for this episode -- meaning the ep itself didn't give the commenters as much to work with. I believe it was on the podcast that someone comments that the director likes to do 'not 2 or 3 but 100 takes' of a scene -- which means less material; fewer filler shots can get taken, so less material for the editor to work with. This ep feels like the same level of amateurishness that I associate with Amazon Prime originals -- technically competent, but really gappy in narrative, emotion, and logic. I see the director does the next ep too, so I'm a bit despaired already.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:04 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I don't know what the relationship is here between the showrunners and the director, but I feel that this director was not up to the job. The belt being unbuckled, not showing 30 seconds of what the other cult people were doing, etc., are all directorial and editing choices -- if you're also listening to the LOU podcast, even that was 25% shorter for this episode -- meaning the ep itself didn't give the commenters as much to work with. I believe it was on the podcast that someone comments that the director likes to do 'not 2 or 3 but 100 takes' of a scene -- which means less material; fewer filler shots can get taken, so less material for the editor to work with. This ep feels like the same level of amateurishness that I associate with Amazon Prime originals -- technically competent, but really gappy in narrative, emotion, and logic. I see the director does the next ep too, so I'm a bit despaired already.
posted by Silvery Fish at 5:04 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not that it matters a lot, but I'll admit to the unusual position of having my mind changed, or at least my perceptions clarified, by an internet discussion.
I do believe the core of David's character and his villainy was his pedophilia and violence toward women. But that was already established in the dining room and at the jail cell. They didn't need to portray the attempted rape, and the portrayal itself was cartoonish to the point of detracting from whatever their goal was.
posted by martin q blank at 6:45 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I do believe the core of David's character and his villainy was his pedophilia and violence toward women. But that was already established in the dining room and at the jail cell. They didn't need to portray the attempted rape, and the portrayal itself was cartoonish to the point of detracting from whatever their goal was.
posted by martin q blank at 6:45 AM on March 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
... David's face-heel turn moved a little too fast and was a little too telegraphed for my taste.
Me, I figured this guy was evil from the minute we saw him preaching, which was his first minute on screen. This show does innovative things for a post-apocalypse story, but there are certain tropes that will not be denied, and a preacher holed up in the mountains with his flock? No way that's turning out all right. It did a good job of making me think that it might for a minute, with David's initial gentleness, but I'm kind of a sucker for fakeouts anyway. What was innovative in the circumstances, I thought, was showing that the raiders that attacked Joel weren't just mooks but had families they had to feed. (This also happened in Kansas City, but those guys were clearly into the mook lifestyle.)
I have to admit that I didn't actually finish this episode, though I mean to. I got pulled away while I was watching the scene where Joel was torturing those guys, which was really rattling my cage anyway, and afterwards I was bummed in general about life so I just caught up with some gifsets that showed me what happened. This show is a real heavy lift, but so was Chernobyl, and I kept going back for that one, although that provided some kind of assurance that something turned out all right for someone, even some dogs.
Anyway, most of it wasn't a huge surprise. The Indians had told them not to go near those people, which is the kind of warning that traditionally goes unheeded. Plus, I thought: spending winter in the Colorado mountains without a homestead? That's Donner Party behavior -- and it was.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:57 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Me, I figured this guy was evil from the minute we saw him preaching, which was his first minute on screen. This show does innovative things for a post-apocalypse story, but there are certain tropes that will not be denied, and a preacher holed up in the mountains with his flock? No way that's turning out all right. It did a good job of making me think that it might for a minute, with David's initial gentleness, but I'm kind of a sucker for fakeouts anyway. What was innovative in the circumstances, I thought, was showing that the raiders that attacked Joel weren't just mooks but had families they had to feed. (This also happened in Kansas City, but those guys were clearly into the mook lifestyle.)
I have to admit that I didn't actually finish this episode, though I mean to. I got pulled away while I was watching the scene where Joel was torturing those guys, which was really rattling my cage anyway, and afterwards I was bummed in general about life so I just caught up with some gifsets that showed me what happened. This show is a real heavy lift, but so was Chernobyl, and I kept going back for that one, although that provided some kind of assurance that something turned out all right for someone, even some dogs.
Anyway, most of it wasn't a huge surprise. The Indians had told them not to go near those people, which is the kind of warning that traditionally goes unheeded. Plus, I thought: spending winter in the Colorado mountains without a homestead? That's Donner Party behavior -- and it was.
posted by Countess Elena at 6:57 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
The more I think about this episode, the more I think two things: yes, there were plot holes (detailed well above); but also, I underestimated the sophistication of the point they were making comparing David to Joel. David sees "protecting people" as a shield that lets him do all of the sick, violent, exploitative shit he wants to do. I don't know that he cared about any of those people. I think he liked having people under his power. Joel doesn't want to do bad shit, but absolutely will do it, to protect a person. He used to be a callous person who did bad things for selfish reasons, but now he has his reason to live: Ellie, and ironically, his ability and willingness to do whatever feels needed has gone from selfish to heroic, like that. It may feel like splitting hairs to some, but I don't see it that way.
He is a damaged and compromised man being put to good use at last.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:57 AM on March 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
He is a damaged and compromised man being put to good use at last.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 6:57 AM on March 7, 2023 [18 favorites]
Ya'll have covered most of the points that I thought while watching the show. But a few things that stuck out - there's no way they could have shown Joel murdering his way through the cultists - that's straight up video game stuff and the only ones we saw Joel kill were the ones actively hunting them. Be hard to sell Joel as a hero on a rampage through most of that sad crowd we saw.
(still trying to think though - we didn't really see any cultish behavior? Seemed like your garden party preacher/Donner party setup. and now I see Countess Elena called out the Donners as well)
I did like that it was Ellie who rescued herself. Definitely would not want to end up on her bad side.
Plus, the show really continues it's pair theming for reflection - this week with Ellie again and David instead of Riley. First two episodes it was all Joel and Tess, then Bill and Frank, 4 was K and her right hand, 5 were the brothers, 6 was Tommy and Joel, 7 Riley and Ellie, 8 Ellie and David. Who will it be in 9? Will this one be where we focus on Ellie and Joel as the final pair? Seems like it should be.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:24 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
(still trying to think though - we didn't really see any cultish behavior? Seemed like your garden party preacher/Donner party setup. and now I see Countess Elena called out the Donners as well)
I did like that it was Ellie who rescued herself. Definitely would not want to end up on her bad side.
Plus, the show really continues it's pair theming for reflection - this week with Ellie again and David instead of Riley. First two episodes it was all Joel and Tess, then Bill and Frank, 4 was K and her right hand, 5 were the brothers, 6 was Tommy and Joel, 7 Riley and Ellie, 8 Ellie and David. Who will it be in 9? Will this one be where we focus on Ellie and Joel as the final pair? Seems like it should be.
posted by drewbage1847 at 9:24 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
David's face-heel turn moved a little too fast and was a little too telegraphed for my taste.
This was the biggest flaw for me, as well. The entire arc would have worked better with a bit more time to breathe. Had it been stretched out over two episodes, I think it would have been more satisfactory.
Overall, it was still a pretty solid episode and showed us that Elie is capable of a level of violence she may not have been aware of and reminded us that Joel can be a pretty bad guy, albeit for pretty good reasons.
posted by asnider at 9:27 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
This was the biggest flaw for me, as well. The entire arc would have worked better with a bit more time to breathe. Had it been stretched out over two episodes, I think it would have been more satisfactory.
Overall, it was still a pretty solid episode and showed us that Elie is capable of a level of violence she may not have been aware of and reminded us that Joel can be a pretty bad guy, albeit for pretty good reasons.
posted by asnider at 9:27 AM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Series head Craig Mazin says Yes, David was a pedophile. Also speculation from that article's writer that his henchmen's intense desire to kill Ellie could have been not just revenge, but not wanting another mouth to feed only so that David could molest/assault her.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:25 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:25 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Had it been stretched out over two episodes, I think it would have been more satisfactory.
Agree, and I still liked the episode / portrayal. But reading the tea leaves on this production:
-HBO seems to have approved 10 episodes. They were made to combine the first two episodes because the showrunner didn’t like their original ep 1 ending. Last of Us was then left with 9 episodes
-HBO, I think, wasn’t sure this show could be a success. It’s dark. It’s a zombie show, and TWD damaged that genre (I think). Worse, it’s a video game adaptation. The success and hit rate for video game shows or movies is pretty poor when you consider all of them
-I think the creators (Mazin and Druckmann) had one guaranteed shot to tell the story of the first game. They had to tighten things quite a bit to get that done in 9-10 episodes
I am hoping since it has had success, and they’ve been greenlit for more, they’ll be able to move away from the episodes that are told too quickly.
Still, I really enjoy it and think they’ve absolutely delivered.
posted by glaucon at 11:07 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Agree, and I still liked the episode / portrayal. But reading the tea leaves on this production:
-HBO seems to have approved 10 episodes. They were made to combine the first two episodes because the showrunner didn’t like their original ep 1 ending. Last of Us was then left with 9 episodes
-HBO, I think, wasn’t sure this show could be a success. It’s dark. It’s a zombie show, and TWD damaged that genre (I think). Worse, it’s a video game adaptation. The success and hit rate for video game shows or movies is pretty poor when you consider all of them
-I think the creators (Mazin and Druckmann) had one guaranteed shot to tell the story of the first game. They had to tighten things quite a bit to get that done in 9-10 episodes
I am hoping since it has had success, and they’ve been greenlit for more, they’ll be able to move away from the episodes that are told too quickly.
Still, I really enjoy it and think they’ve absolutely delivered.
posted by glaucon at 11:07 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
But that was already established in the dining room and at the jail cell
That's the thing. The attempted rape can only be explained (besides just straight up clumsy story telling) as a studio note along the lines of: "Well, some of our more stupid viewers might not get...." Otherwise, it makes zero sense.
Before the rape Ellie had stabbed him with a knife in a kidney, set the building on fire (I guess that could be interpreted as "flailing"), stabbed one dude to death with a cleaver, practically bit off a dude's finger, got told she was a fucking killer just like the antagonist, did the ruse that ended up failing with her getting shot out under the horse, tracked a shot deer, shot the deer, and was know to be taken care of an adult that was critical wonded at best, and yet the antagonist has to try at rape her and then get killed to show him and and audience that Ellie isn't that wilting flower after all. It's dumb as hell, unless you as the writer think your views are even dumber.
The one scene in the jail cell was all anybody with a pulse needed to know about the character.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:23 AM on March 7, 2023
That's the thing. The attempted rape can only be explained (besides just straight up clumsy story telling) as a studio note along the lines of: "Well, some of our more stupid viewers might not get...." Otherwise, it makes zero sense.
Before the rape Ellie had stabbed him with a knife in a kidney, set the building on fire (I guess that could be interpreted as "flailing"), stabbed one dude to death with a cleaver, practically bit off a dude's finger, got told she was a fucking killer just like the antagonist, did the ruse that ended up failing with her getting shot out under the horse, tracked a shot deer, shot the deer, and was know to be taken care of an adult that was critical wonded at best, and yet the antagonist has to try at rape her and then get killed to show him and and audience that Ellie isn't that wilting flower after all. It's dumb as hell, unless you as the writer think your views are even dumber.
The one scene in the jail cell was all anybody with a pulse needed to know about the character.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 11:23 AM on March 7, 2023
and she is very much in his mold.
I see what you did there
posted by condour75 at 11:42 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I see what you did there
posted by condour75 at 11:42 AM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm OK with them so quickly dispatching this specific Big Bad because he was little more than a paper tiger wrapped in a bunch of genre clichés. But I am a little disappointed we didn't delve more into his corrupted philosophy/pseudo religious revelation regarding the True Way of the Fungus, or whatever. It's the kind of detail that could really build out the world if given more time to flourish than a single one-off episode.
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:18 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by Atom Eyes at 12:18 PM on March 7, 2023 [5 favorites]
Series head Craig Mazin says Yes, David was a pedophile.
That seemed pretty obvious to me. I read an article last night in which one of the co-authors said he didn't believe or understand why David would see Ellie as an equal who could be his new right hand woman, and I was flabbergasted that this supposed media critic couldn't spot the obvious grooming. David all but said, "If you'll be my child bride, we can rule this place together."
It was patently obvious, at least to me, even before the attempted rape scene (which, I tend to agree, was unnecessary and defied belief given that the building was burning down around them).
posted by asnider at 1:01 PM on March 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
That seemed pretty obvious to me. I read an article last night in which one of the co-authors said he didn't believe or understand why David would see Ellie as an equal who could be his new right hand woman, and I was flabbergasted that this supposed media critic couldn't spot the obvious grooming. David all but said, "If you'll be my child bride, we can rule this place together."
It was patently obvious, at least to me, even before the attempted rape scene (which, I tend to agree, was unnecessary and defied belief given that the building was burning down around them).
posted by asnider at 1:01 PM on March 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
the thing about David hunting Ellie in the burning building was that the director made it 100% clear that it was a deliberate choice. David stares right at the curtain going up in flames, the flames reaching the ceiling, for like a three-second count, and he then turns away and goes after Ellie.
He all but said, "Eff it, I don't care that our meadhall is burning down, it's more important to me to go assault and/or kill this girl, and letting her burn in here is just not sufficient." Which is a really odd choice but again a deliberate one from the writers and/or director.
posted by martin q blank at 1:21 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
He all but said, "Eff it, I don't care that our meadhall is burning down, it's more important to me to go assault and/or kill this girl, and letting her burn in here is just not sufficient." Which is a really odd choice but again a deliberate one from the writers and/or director.
posted by martin q blank at 1:21 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I thought the same, martin q blank. It was very intentional, which perhaps made it even more difficult for me to suspend my disbelief. It was a deliberate decision to turn him into some sort of caricature of evil, which I really did not understand.
posted by asnider at 1:26 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by asnider at 1:26 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
mmmhmmm. they went way out of the way to make him as evil as possible, and it seemed like a caricature at the end. I don't really get it either, as up to that point, he was all about calm, controlled manipulation. maybe Ellie's successful resistance of his grooming just broke him? I don't know.
posted by martin q blank at 1:34 PM on March 7, 2023
posted by martin q blank at 1:34 PM on March 7, 2023
it seemed like a caricature at the end. I don't really get it either, as up to that point, he was all about calm, controlled manipulation. maybe Ellie's successful resistance of his grooming just broke him?
I mean, in the cage-chat scene he directly calls out that he has a (rage filled? something like that) heart - the calm, the manipulation, it's all a veneer over a detestable, sadistic, violent fuckstain.
When you pull the veneer off a bad man you get a violent reaction.
posted by coriolisdave at 4:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I mean, in the cage-chat scene he directly calls out that he has a (rage filled? something like that) heart - the calm, the manipulation, it's all a veneer over a detestable, sadistic, violent fuckstain.
When you pull the veneer off a bad man you get a violent reaction.
posted by coriolisdave at 4:42 PM on March 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
Also speculation from that article's writer that his henchmen's intense desire to kill Ellie could have been not just revenge, but not wanting another mouth to feed only so that David could molest/assault her.
There's a scene in the "Den" story in the film Heavy Metal where Den is caught infiltrating the palace, and after the queen offers to spare his life if he will share her bed, one of her guards rolls his eyes while leaving the room muttering, "not again.."
posted by mikelieman at 8:12 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
There's a scene in the "Den" story in the film Heavy Metal where Den is caught infiltrating the palace, and after the queen offers to spare his life if he will share her bed, one of her guards rolls his eyes while leaving the room muttering, "not again.."
posted by mikelieman at 8:12 PM on March 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Lots of great points in this thread — fun reading along as a companion to watching the show.
I’ll throw in another endorsement of Station 11. I loved that show. I’m enjoying TLOU, but it’s a little too gory/jump-scary for my tastes, so I think I like S11 better. A weird point, perhaps, but also really loved that S11 was a mini series and just ended. These multi-seasonal shows are too much of a commitment and too often run out of good stuff. Just end it and be done.
I read the S11 book after having watched the show. The book is good, too, but I thought the show was better. Different enough that while it’s of course still derivative of the book, it ends out being a work of art in its own right.
posted by AwkwardPause at 6:56 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I’ll throw in another endorsement of Station 11. I loved that show. I’m enjoying TLOU, but it’s a little too gory/jump-scary for my tastes, so I think I like S11 better. A weird point, perhaps, but also really loved that S11 was a mini series and just ended. These multi-seasonal shows are too much of a commitment and too often run out of good stuff. Just end it and be done.
I read the S11 book after having watched the show. The book is good, too, but I thought the show was better. Different enough that while it’s of course still derivative of the book, it ends out being a work of art in its own right.
posted by AwkwardPause at 6:56 AM on March 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
I bounced off Station 11 as a novel but that might be because I tried reading it in late 2020. Maybe I’ll give it another try now.
But I am a little disappointed we didn't delve more into his corrupted philosophy/pseudo religious revelation regarding the True Way of the Fungus, or whatever.
Maybe it’s just me, but all of David’s rhapsody over the Way of Cordyceps boiled down to the fact that it assumes total control of those it infects, something he wishes he could do.
posted by nubs at 7:34 AM on March 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
But I am a little disappointed we didn't delve more into his corrupted philosophy/pseudo religious revelation regarding the True Way of the Fungus, or whatever.
Maybe it’s just me, but all of David’s rhapsody over the Way of Cordyceps boiled down to the fact that it assumes total control of those it infects, something he wishes he could do.
posted by nubs at 7:34 AM on March 8, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yeah, I sort of figured it was going to be a church of the bomb sort of cult early on (although it wasn't not really), and I figured there was going to be cannibalism involved when they couldn't bury dear ol' dad. I _kind_ of want to watch the episode again to see how much more of that jumps out in a rewatch but ...
That said, the "huh this is totally 100% a videogame setup" has been wearing off. I mean, I got a smidge of it when Ellie was scurrying around and hiding from the pastor all PRESS X TO GET KNIFE QTE, but otherwise it has stopped kind of taking me out of the show as much as it did early on. Having not played the game, I'm not sure if that's because they're deviating a bit from the game's setups or if I'm just accepting it for what it is, or if the writing and directing is hewing less to the form despite using pre-existing set pieces.
posted by Kyol at 7:54 AM on March 8, 2023
That said, the "huh this is totally 100% a videogame setup" has been wearing off. I mean, I got a smidge of it when Ellie was scurrying around and hiding from the pastor all PRESS X TO GET KNIFE QTE, but otherwise it has stopped kind of taking me out of the show as much as it did early on. Having not played the game, I'm not sure if that's because they're deviating a bit from the game's setups or if I'm just accepting it for what it is, or if the writing and directing is hewing less to the form despite using pre-existing set pieces.
posted by Kyol at 7:54 AM on March 8, 2023
I _kind_ of want to watch the episode again to see how much more of that jumps out in a rewatch but ...
There was also a scene in the kitchen where two characters exchange a significant glance over some freshly-delivered meat. "It's venison," the guy who butchered it insists. The cook chooses to believe him, but more from the need to tell herself a comforting lie than from any sense of genuine conviction.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:15 AM on March 8, 2023
There was also a scene in the kitchen where two characters exchange a significant glance over some freshly-delivered meat. "It's venison," the guy who butchered it insists. The cook chooses to believe him, but more from the need to tell herself a comforting lie than from any sense of genuine conviction.
posted by Paul Slade at 8:15 AM on March 8, 2023
"It's venison," the guy who butchered it insists.
And it's a great setup for the later cannibalism reveal since right after that the actual "venison" comes through the front door. That is good story telling that doesn't assume it's audience is a group of stone cold morons.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:48 AM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
And it's a great setup for the later cannibalism reveal since right after that the actual "venison" comes through the front door. That is good story telling that doesn't assume it's audience is a group of stone cold morons.
posted by Back At It Again At Krispy Kreme at 8:48 AM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Having not played the game, I'm not sure if that's because they're deviating a bit from the game's setups or if I'm just accepting it for what it is, or if the writing and directing is hewing less to the form despite using pre-existing set pieces
FWIW, this entire episode is basically lifted wholesale from the game. All they left out were a couple of requisite "kill/sneak your way to the next bit of plot" sections
posted by coriolisdave at 2:41 PM on March 8, 2023
FWIW, this entire episode is basically lifted wholesale from the game. All they left out were a couple of requisite "kill/sneak your way to the next bit of plot" sections
posted by coriolisdave at 2:41 PM on March 8, 2023
And it's a great setup for the later cannibalism reveal since right after that the actual "venison" comes through the front door.
I'm imagining the most clueless cult member just sitting there baffled, wondering why folks are so excited about a dead deer when they're all eating venison every day.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 3:48 PM on March 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
I'm imagining the most clueless cult member just sitting there baffled, wondering why folks are so excited about a dead deer when they're all eating venison every day.
posted by Blue Jello Elf at 3:48 PM on March 8, 2023 [9 favorites]
The more I think about the episode - I think the writers put in the threat of sexual assault to remove any last nuance of whether or not David was a bad guy. I could see some folks continuing to ride on the train of "well, it's awful, but he's just doing what needs to be done to keep his people alive"
posted by drewbage1847 at 4:44 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by drewbage1847 at 4:44 PM on March 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
The Last of Us Does Something No Other Post-Apocalyptic Show Does: Other shows wrestle with doing the right thing. The Last of Us knows there’s no contest. [Slate]
The Last of Us Is Lost in the Darkness of the American Myth [Vulture / Archive]
posted by ellieBOA at 4:10 AM on March 9, 2023
The Last of Us Is Lost in the Darkness of the American Myth [Vulture / Archive]
posted by ellieBOA at 4:10 AM on March 9, 2023
I find it interesting how the world, 20 yrs into the fungal infection, is portrayed. Game should not be hard to find at this point, and more than that, cattle should not be hard to find hold, breed and have around. Grazing land will be ridiculously plentiful, and there should be millions of cows and pigs , chickens all over the place (rabbits and other critters too).
Crowded urban spaces, with infected all over, seem so much less desirable than some ranchland, a garden and some stock animals. The population seems to have been reduced by a great percentage, but safety in numbers doesn't seem like that great a strategy. How would no one have thought to encourage settlers to go out and farm as part of a rebuilding strategy?
Ammo on the other hand would be a good business to be in. Guns will be plentiful, as we've seen, but someone's gotta be making gunpowder for all the Fedra, fireflies and hunters to use.
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:26 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
Crowded urban spaces, with infected all over, seem so much less desirable than some ranchland, a garden and some stock animals. The population seems to have been reduced by a great percentage, but safety in numbers doesn't seem like that great a strategy. How would no one have thought to encourage settlers to go out and farm as part of a rebuilding strategy?
Ammo on the other hand would be a good business to be in. Guns will be plentiful, as we've seen, but someone's gotta be making gunpowder for all the Fedra, fireflies and hunters to use.
posted by OHenryPacey at 7:26 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
How would no one have thought to encourage settlers to go out and farm as part of a rebuilding strategy?
My take was that there are enough infected and raiders that anything less than a small, fortified community is too difficult to manage without getting killed.
posted by Silvery Fish at 8:32 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
My take was that there are enough infected and raiders that anything less than a small, fortified community is too difficult to manage without getting killed.
posted by Silvery Fish at 8:32 AM on March 9, 2023 [2 favorites]
I could see some folks continuing to ride on the train of "well, it's awful, but he's just doing what needs to be done to keep his people alive"
Would that be so bad, though? A fair bit of the show is pretty morally grey (I mean, Joel just straight up murdered the guys he was torturing for information earlier in the episode), so do we really need to remove any possibility of "good" for a character like David? Isn't enough to see that his actions are bad and at odds with our protagonists, even if he may be a "good" man doing bad things in an effort to keep his people alive?
but someone's gotta be making gunpowder for all the Fedra, fireflies and hunters to use.
There was a brief reference in an early episode to a factory in another QZ that does nothing but make ammo and something else that I'm forgetting. Some degree of industry either remains or has been rebuilt, but seems to be mostly controlled by the likes of Fedra.
My take was that there are enough infected and raiders that anything less than a small, fortified community is too difficult to manage without getting killed.
It's a bit unclear, to be honest. At times, this seems like the case. But quite often it seems that places far from the remains of civilization are remote enough that there aren't many infected, perhaps simply because not many humans inhabited those areas before the fungal apocalypse. I'd imagine Wyoming, with its low population or Alaska with its low population density (or pretty much the entirety of Canada outside of southern Ontario and the St. Lawrence Seaway) would be pretty free of infected simply because there weren't many humans around to infect in the first place.
Joel explicitly says something about being too far out to worry about infected in one episode (but then stays awake all night because he's worried about other people finding and attacking them, so maybe this is all a long-winded way of saying that you've got a point...Bill and Frank notwithstanding, a lone family on a ranch would probably not be safe for long, but a small settlement of a few dozen people with a setup like Tommy's people would likely be safer and more prosperous than a larger city (which seems pretty evident from what we're shown: life in Tommy's town seems a lot safer and more enjoyable than life in Fedra-controlled Boston)).
posted by asnider at 9:27 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Would that be so bad, though? A fair bit of the show is pretty morally grey (I mean, Joel just straight up murdered the guys he was torturing for information earlier in the episode), so do we really need to remove any possibility of "good" for a character like David? Isn't enough to see that his actions are bad and at odds with our protagonists, even if he may be a "good" man doing bad things in an effort to keep his people alive?
but someone's gotta be making gunpowder for all the Fedra, fireflies and hunters to use.
There was a brief reference in an early episode to a factory in another QZ that does nothing but make ammo and something else that I'm forgetting. Some degree of industry either remains or has been rebuilt, but seems to be mostly controlled by the likes of Fedra.
My take was that there are enough infected and raiders that anything less than a small, fortified community is too difficult to manage without getting killed.
It's a bit unclear, to be honest. At times, this seems like the case. But quite often it seems that places far from the remains of civilization are remote enough that there aren't many infected, perhaps simply because not many humans inhabited those areas before the fungal apocalypse. I'd imagine Wyoming, with its low population or Alaska with its low population density (or pretty much the entirety of Canada outside of southern Ontario and the St. Lawrence Seaway) would be pretty free of infected simply because there weren't many humans around to infect in the first place.
Joel explicitly says something about being too far out to worry about infected in one episode (but then stays awake all night because he's worried about other people finding and attacking them, so maybe this is all a long-winded way of saying that you've got a point...Bill and Frank notwithstanding, a lone family on a ranch would probably not be safe for long, but a small settlement of a few dozen people with a setup like Tommy's people would likely be safer and more prosperous than a larger city (which seems pretty evident from what we're shown: life in Tommy's town seems a lot safer and more enjoyable than life in Fedra-controlled Boston)).
posted by asnider at 9:27 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
There was a brief reference in an early episode to a factory in another QZ that does nothing but make ammo and something else that I'm forgetting. Some degree of industry either remains or has been rebuilt, but seems to be mostly controlled by the likes of Fedra.
Ammo and drugs. I assume antibiotics or something, but maybe methamphetamine for late night cordyceps defense.
posted by Kyol at 10:05 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ammo and drugs. I assume antibiotics or something, but maybe methamphetamine for late night cordyceps defense.
posted by Kyol at 10:05 AM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
How would no one have thought to encourage settlers to go out and farm as part of a rebuilding strategy?
Speaking as a city dweller, I'm pretty sure all my neighbours and I would starve in a month if we tried that.
posted by Paul Slade at 10:53 AM on March 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
Speaking as a city dweller, I'm pretty sure all my neighbours and I would starve in a month if we tried that.
posted by Paul Slade at 10:53 AM on March 9, 2023 [5 favorites]
asnider - my thought is they wanted David, of all characters, to be unmitigatedly evil to heighten the payoff of Joel calling Ellie "baby girl". Not saying that it's right or best but that's my guess.
Not strictly TLoU related, but Pedro on Hot Ones is such a different experience from his Joel. (He seems like your happy, slightly goofy, slightly stoned buddy)
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:44 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not strictly TLoU related, but Pedro on Hot Ones is such a different experience from his Joel. (He seems like your happy, slightly goofy, slightly stoned buddy)
posted by drewbage1847 at 12:44 PM on March 9, 2023 [1 favorite]
A very fun Hot Ones episode!
The one-off/guest appearance he says in his fave is mine too! He's so completely bonkers as Dio, I laughed when his uber-goth edgelord freaked out the cops.
posted by fiercekitten at 10:20 PM on March 10, 2023
The one-off/guest appearance he says in his fave is mine too! He's so completely bonkers as Dio, I laughed when his uber-goth edgelord freaked out the cops.
posted by fiercekitten at 10:20 PM on March 10, 2023
For folks who want more Bella Ramsey queer horror, the 2021 short film "Requiem" was posted to Youtube a couple of days ago. She plays a young minister's daughter in 1605 England in love with the nearby milkmaid, at a time when women were being burned as witches. The story's a bit too predictable but the acting is great; a quick 24 minutes. Via queer popcult site Autostraddle.
posted by mediareport at 7:04 AM on March 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by mediareport at 7:04 AM on March 12, 2023 [2 favorites]
Ammo and drugs. I assume antibiotics or something, but maybe methamphetamine for late night cordyceps defense.
Yeah, Joel's guard contact says the Atlanta Fedra folks make "pills and bullets" in their factory as Joel trades him hydrocortisone pills for a vehicle. "If it's real, it's from Atlanta."
posted by mediareport at 7:11 AM on March 12, 2023
Yeah, Joel's guard contact says the Atlanta Fedra folks make "pills and bullets" in their factory as Joel trades him hydrocortisone pills for a vehicle. "If it's real, it's from Atlanta."
posted by mediareport at 7:11 AM on March 12, 2023
so do we really need to remove any possibility of "good" for a character like David?
That was the dumbest aspect about this episode. It starts off with him seeming merciful and mild, perhaps forced into harsh Alive-style emergency cannibalism, but not out to actually
harm Joel and Ellie. (Of course, that possibility is contributed with one of his men striking first in the previous episode.) But then it turns out no, he's just your garden variety sociopath cult leader who engages in unspeakable acts, hiding under the cloak of religion and a nice guy personality.
It's just so played out, and the only reason why it was slightly predictable because the show jerks you around like it might subvert the cliche until it slams it in your face with no, the bad guy is a real bad guy so completely evil that he's dumb enough to not be concerned that the building is on fire.
unmitigatedly evil to heighten the payoff of Joel calling Ellie "baby girl"
That's probably the intent, Ellie had to be put in an intensely traumatic situation that Joel rescues her from in the nick of time.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:21 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
That was the dumbest aspect about this episode. It starts off with him seeming merciful and mild, perhaps forced into harsh Alive-style emergency cannibalism, but not out to actually
harm Joel and Ellie. (Of course, that possibility is contributed with one of his men striking first in the previous episode.) But then it turns out no, he's just your garden variety sociopath cult leader who engages in unspeakable acts, hiding under the cloak of religion and a nice guy personality.
It's just so played out, and the only reason why it was slightly predictable because the show jerks you around like it might subvert the cliche until it slams it in your face with no, the bad guy is a real bad guy so completely evil that he's dumb enough to not be concerned that the building is on fire.
unmitigatedly evil to heighten the payoff of Joel calling Ellie "baby girl"
That's probably the intent, Ellie had to be put in an intensely traumatic situation that Joel rescues her from in the nick of time.
posted by Apocryphon at 12:21 AM on March 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ellie had to be put in an intensely traumatic situation that Joel rescues her from in the nick of time.
He didn't really rescue her, though. She nursed him back to health as best she could and then he came and found her after she'd saved herself. I appreciated that.
Yes, she just went through some traumatic shit and having Joel back to help keep her safe was obviously a comfort to both characters, but she wasn't rescued. She handled her own shit *and* managed to keep Joel safe for long enough that he could magically regain his full health from a couple shots of penicillin and a brief nap before the antagonists kicked down the door.
posted by asnider at 10:09 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
He didn't really rescue her, though. She nursed him back to health as best she could and then he came and found her after she'd saved herself. I appreciated that.
Yes, she just went through some traumatic shit and having Joel back to help keep her safe was obviously a comfort to both characters, but she wasn't rescued. She handled her own shit *and* managed to keep Joel safe for long enough that he could magically regain his full health from a couple shots of penicillin and a brief nap before the antagonists kicked down the door.
posted by asnider at 10:09 AM on March 13, 2023 [3 favorites]
When Ellie’s torch set the curtain on fire, the pastor looked at it—and in that moment, he could’ve ripped it down and stomped it out but he chose not to, he chose to pursue Ellie. Reminded me of Kathleen, the leader in Kansas City, who looked at the heaving floor but put off dealing with it to track down Henry.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:53 PM on January 12
posted by TWinbrook8 at 7:53 PM on January 12
I think the pastor was not 100% sure he wasn’t infected, plus all his lieutenants have just been brutally murdered and he was injured. I think him looking at the fiery curtains was him basically thinking, fuck it, there’s no going back now and my little creepy leadership role is over. So a combination of desperation, death impulse, and blood rage, with maybe a little underlying knowledge that he’s a monster. I think the (triggering but very quickly aborted ) threat of sexual violence was important to Ellie’s character arc. She solved her own problem bravely and pretty grossly, but until now I don’t think she’s really doubted herself or thought there was anything she couldn’t handle. She gets an adrenaline rush from some of her Infected battles, but this is a really terrifying realization that the world is rotten all the way through.
Idk about the fact that no one shows up for the burning house, but I’ll go with the theory that the others are cowering or relieved. If you rewatch the beginning meal scene, it’s only the leader and his guys who know about the cannibalism who do anything. Everyone else is acting like and being treated like meek livestock. We get the girl being slapped as a signal that these people aren’t going to stand up, through a combination of brainwashing and violence.
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:45 PM on February 25
Idk about the fact that no one shows up for the burning house, but I’ll go with the theory that the others are cowering or relieved. If you rewatch the beginning meal scene, it’s only the leader and his guys who know about the cannibalism who do anything. Everyone else is acting like and being treated like meek livestock. We get the girl being slapped as a signal that these people aren’t going to stand up, through a combination of brainwashing and violence.
posted by caviar2d2 at 8:45 PM on February 25
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posted by crossoverman at 8:10 PM on March 5, 2023 [4 favorites]