Succession: The Munsters
March 26, 2023 7:16 PM - Season 4, Episode 1 - Subscribe
As Kendall, Shiv, and Roman hone their pitch for investors in LA, Logan learns of a rival bid on a long-coveted acquisition.
Cherry Jones is such a goddamn star. She really is the perfect foil for Brian Cox, the sweet liberal granny who is also ruthless in securing the best price while politely being embarrassed. What a great performance.
Is Tom genuinely a sympathetic character now? I've long held that part of why this show is so delicious is all the characters are equally contemptible. I mean sure Roman is the adorable runt underdog but he's a total piece of shit. Tom though, Tom seems to have genuine emotions that are relatable and that the show respects. It's a little disorienting!
posted by Nelson at 8:23 PM on March 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Is Tom genuinely a sympathetic character now? I've long held that part of why this show is so delicious is all the characters are equally contemptible. I mean sure Roman is the adorable runt underdog but he's a total piece of shit. Tom though, Tom seems to have genuine emotions that are relatable and that the show respects. It's a little disorienting!
posted by Nelson at 8:23 PM on March 26, 2023 [9 favorites]
Tom's naked love and affection for Shiv in that last scene somehow works despite the fact that earlier in the episode we saw him ruthlessly setting up Greg for humiliation. Matthew Macfadyen's performance is just magical.
posted by HeroZero at 8:44 PM on March 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
posted by HeroZero at 8:44 PM on March 26, 2023 [11 favorites]
Yeah it’s hard to square Tom here with Tom at the end of last season. Framed via the recap that he shivved Shiv over the “love” remark but now he… regrets upsetting that balance? Regrets it now that she’s ending the marriage over it when he was just trying to gain some power?
(“Once in my life I would like the upper hand. I have no hand. No hand at all. She has the hand. I have no hand.”)
Logan’s right, the kids (mostly Kendall and Shiv) are morons. Even if he didn’t manipulate them with the call from Tom to Shiv, he might as well have. Predict that Kendall’s past is going to bring down the Pierce deal, perhaps with Logan’s nudging.
Connor continues to be hilarious.
posted by supercres at 12:09 AM on March 27, 2023
(“Once in my life I would like the upper hand. I have no hand. No hand at all. She has the hand. I have no hand.”)
Logan’s right, the kids (mostly Kendall and Shiv) are morons. Even if he didn’t manipulate them with the call from Tom to Shiv, he might as well have. Predict that Kendall’s past is going to bring down the Pierce deal, perhaps with Logan’s nudging.
Connor continues to be hilarious.
posted by supercres at 12:09 AM on March 27, 2023
I'm not surprised at Tom's apparent upset about the divorce. Tom is really good in thinking of himself as the good guy. Just wait until he convinces himself that Shiv was the problem in their marriage. It's all surface level dross. The true Tom is the one we see with Greg.
posted by Pendragon at 5:33 AM on March 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 5:33 AM on March 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
In the opening credits, the chyron on an ATN broadcast says "CHINA HACK COULD SEE 40M AMERICANS ENTOMBED IN THEIR ELECTRIC CARS." And in the Times Square billboard monitor the chyron reads "DEEP STATE BLUNDER: CLASSIFIED DOCS DISPLAYED ON NBA JUMBOTRON. But the kicker is the crawl under that billboard that says:"MAN WITH BIRD FLU CAN'T STOP THINKING OF DUCKS".
posted by Stanczyk at 5:34 AM on March 27, 2023 [28 favorites]
posted by Stanczyk at 5:34 AM on March 27, 2023 [28 favorites]
But the kicker is the crawl under that billboard that says:"MAN WITH BIRD FLU CAN'T STOP THINKING OF DUCKS".
Which seems to be maybe based on a real story?
posted by General Malaise at 5:47 AM on March 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Which seems to be maybe based on a real story?
posted by General Malaise at 5:47 AM on March 27, 2023 [5 favorites]
Pendragon, I have almost the exact opposite take on Tom. I rewatched earlier seasons of Succession before watching this episode, and I was struck that moves which I'd initially seen as extremely shrewd and self-centered of Tom—particularly his original proposal to Shiv, which I had interpreted as sheer power-grab malice on my first watch—feel unbelievably different to me now.
On some level, Tom is just a lovesick dope. Even his aspirations to become CEO of Waystar-Royco feel, on some level, like a couple's activity that he reeeeally wants to do with Shiv, his wife, whom he's just so crazy about. He's a classic Wife Guy on so many levels.
I find the shit he pulls with Greg fascinating on so many layers. The way I put it to a friend who's just starting the show is, Tom tries to ape the casual cruelty of all the Roy children, but he doesn't quite know how it works. As a result, he winds up saying some really fucked-up shit, but a lot of it feels... accidental? Like he doesn't quite know why he's saying what he's saying? But the reason he targets Greg in particular is clear: not only is he insecure about his place within the family, but here comes the dopiest most ignorant kid on the planet, and, because he's a genuine Roy, he's still instantly given access to the inner circle in ways that Tom doesn't quite. Tom's stressing about what watch to buy Logan, and Greg stumbles in and asks for a job and is immediately sitting next to Logan in the limo. So there's this weird tension of, on the one hand Greg is powerless and therefore the single only person Tom can do this shit to, and on the other hand Greg is more of a Roy than Tom will ever be.
And after Tom says all the nasty shit to Greg that he does in the pilot, he still immediately goes softhearted and tells Greg that he'll help Greg out within the business. And then he does! And now Greg is practically a player. Tom does more to help Greg than Shiv does to help Tom, or than any Roy does to help anybody, ever.
Shiv's feelings towards Tom are more complicated. I think she does love him, and I think she sees some of the meanest things she does to him as affectionate. But she still goes out of her way to cheat on Tom before their marriage, she forces him into an open relationship on their wedding night, she openly parades her affairs in front of him while shutting down even casual conversations that he has with other women, and on top of that, she completely cuts him out of their "shared" plans, first by leaping at Logan's offer to make her the CEO, and then by letting her family know that they can fuck Tom over, nix his position at ATN, even let him go to jail, and she'd be perfectly okay with that. The one time that she shows him any pity and asks Logan to be soft on Tom, in the season 2 finale, happens right after Tom flat-out says that he thinks he's sadder with her than he'd be without her.
Time is not really kind to Shiv Roy. She was maybe my favorite back in season 1, but I went back and found that she was pretty awful right from the start. Hell, I found myself sympathizing with Logan over Shiv during their squabbles in season 2. She's not a monster through-and-through, but she's incredibly convinced of her own savvy and her own moral correctness, and her response to basically any criticism is to laugh off the suggestion that the other person knows what they're talking about. She's more of a gaslighter than anybody on the show but Logan, and her entire marriage to Tom is one long series of her telling him that the things he thinks just happened didn't happen. I'm a dope too and I'd love if the two of them somehow found a way back towards loving one another, but if the marriage falls apart, it's entirely on Shiv. I'm not sure how much more Tom could have done, apart from leaving her on the altar and sparing both of them this mess.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:05 AM on March 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
On some level, Tom is just a lovesick dope. Even his aspirations to become CEO of Waystar-Royco feel, on some level, like a couple's activity that he reeeeally wants to do with Shiv, his wife, whom he's just so crazy about. He's a classic Wife Guy on so many levels.
I find the shit he pulls with Greg fascinating on so many layers. The way I put it to a friend who's just starting the show is, Tom tries to ape the casual cruelty of all the Roy children, but he doesn't quite know how it works. As a result, he winds up saying some really fucked-up shit, but a lot of it feels... accidental? Like he doesn't quite know why he's saying what he's saying? But the reason he targets Greg in particular is clear: not only is he insecure about his place within the family, but here comes the dopiest most ignorant kid on the planet, and, because he's a genuine Roy, he's still instantly given access to the inner circle in ways that Tom doesn't quite. Tom's stressing about what watch to buy Logan, and Greg stumbles in and asks for a job and is immediately sitting next to Logan in the limo. So there's this weird tension of, on the one hand Greg is powerless and therefore the single only person Tom can do this shit to, and on the other hand Greg is more of a Roy than Tom will ever be.
And after Tom says all the nasty shit to Greg that he does in the pilot, he still immediately goes softhearted and tells Greg that he'll help Greg out within the business. And then he does! And now Greg is practically a player. Tom does more to help Greg than Shiv does to help Tom, or than any Roy does to help anybody, ever.
Shiv's feelings towards Tom are more complicated. I think she does love him, and I think she sees some of the meanest things she does to him as affectionate. But she still goes out of her way to cheat on Tom before their marriage, she forces him into an open relationship on their wedding night, she openly parades her affairs in front of him while shutting down even casual conversations that he has with other women, and on top of that, she completely cuts him out of their "shared" plans, first by leaping at Logan's offer to make her the CEO, and then by letting her family know that they can fuck Tom over, nix his position at ATN, even let him go to jail, and she'd be perfectly okay with that. The one time that she shows him any pity and asks Logan to be soft on Tom, in the season 2 finale, happens right after Tom flat-out says that he thinks he's sadder with her than he'd be without her.
Time is not really kind to Shiv Roy. She was maybe my favorite back in season 1, but I went back and found that she was pretty awful right from the start. Hell, I found myself sympathizing with Logan over Shiv during their squabbles in season 2. She's not a monster through-and-through, but she's incredibly convinced of her own savvy and her own moral correctness, and her response to basically any criticism is to laugh off the suggestion that the other person knows what they're talking about. She's more of a gaslighter than anybody on the show but Logan, and her entire marriage to Tom is one long series of her telling him that the things he thinks just happened didn't happen. I'm a dope too and I'd love if the two of them somehow found a way back towards loving one another, but if the marriage falls apart, it's entirely on Shiv. I'm not sure how much more Tom could have done, apart from leaving her on the altar and sparing both of them this mess.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 6:05 AM on March 27, 2023 [25 favorites]
I just love how the three are all billionaires and could just go off an be playboy philanthropists but are desperately trying to become business titans like it's some kind of fucking emergency.
Also, if you're tempted to sympathize with Tom, remember that even though it didn't get any screen time this week, his incredibly lucrative day job is to facilitate the rise of fascism.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:50 AM on March 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
Also, if you're tempted to sympathize with Tom, remember that even though it didn't get any screen time this week, his incredibly lucrative day job is to facilitate the rise of fascism.
posted by paper chromatographologist at 6:50 AM on March 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
God, Nan Pierce is so delightfully awful a human being. Loved Roman’s eye rolling… “What comes after 9? 9b?”… it’s weird how the person jizzing on a skyscraper window is season 1 has become the voice of reason in season 4 but here we are. He’s relatively uncomplicated a person I guess, and relatively self aware.
posted by chill at 6:57 AM on March 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by chill at 6:57 AM on March 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
Metafilter: Substack meets Masterclass meets the Economist meets the New Yorker
posted by HeroZero at 7:03 AM on March 27, 2023 [24 favorites]
posted by HeroZero at 7:03 AM on March 27, 2023 [24 favorites]
I feel like the rehabilitation of Roman into the "competent one" is a conscious ideological choice on the part of the showrunners, and I find it fairly disturbing. At the start of the series Shiv is obviously the only one who has her shit together in any way, but she's a "liberal" woman and so of course by the last season she has to be reduced to a hysterical bundle of feelings, totally destroyed by her failed marriage. By contrast, Roman is obviously a pathologically-immature alt-right fuckboy, but for some reason the writers really really want us to think that that's "just a phase," and that within three short years he can make a total about face into a rational and calculating Man Of Deals.
Put another way, I find it kind of gross that the writers have basically rigged the deck so that the most clearly ideologically fascist / racist / misogynist of the Roys has also become the most self-aware and rational. It doesn't seem at all true to the character as written in the first two seasons, and strikes me as some combination of lazy plotting and sinister implied politics.
posted by rishabguha at 7:19 AM on March 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
Put another way, I find it kind of gross that the writers have basically rigged the deck so that the most clearly ideologically fascist / racist / misogynist of the Roys has also become the most self-aware and rational. It doesn't seem at all true to the character as written in the first two seasons, and strikes me as some combination of lazy plotting and sinister implied politics.
posted by rishabguha at 7:19 AM on March 27, 2023 [7 favorites]
rishabuga, I think that's a smart read of the show's unmotivated breaking from characterizations intially implied (see also, if less problematically than the Shiv and Roman examples: Logan magically cured of dementia). Still, there's about 23% of the show's total runtime left, so I hope this can be further complicated in interesting ways.
posted by HeroZero at 8:32 AM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by HeroZero at 8:32 AM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
In fairness to the show -- I think they're suggesting that Roman's glimmer of competence (in not wanting to massively overpay for a declining business) is rooted in Roman's fundamental character traits fear of going against his father and suspicion of others (pointing out that the finance guy would support whatever gets him the biggest fee). If they continues to show Roman having good judgment, well....yeah, I wouldn't like that either.
I thought Shiv had her shit together in S1 mainly because she was the only kid smart enough to pull away from Logan's toxic orbit. I think it's pathetic that she fell back, and Logan does, too -- but the cruises coverup and Republican fundraiser episodes made it clear that Shiv did not have any deeply-held political convictions. On the other hand Nan Pierce is a pretty vicious critique of a rich lib, but she is shown to be rather competent in this episode.
Re: Shiv's marriage. The Roy kids respond to Marcia, Rhea, and Kerry like an immune system fending off an infection. It makes me wonder how many women have drifted through Logan's life, that they are immediately able to spot the entanglement. Earlier seasons made it clear that Logan was abusive to his children and employees; in some ways, Marcia's self-possession obscured that Logan is also a monster in his romantic relationships (see the institutionalized first ex-wife, and the miserable second ex-wife). Shiv's awful treatment of Tom is where she is the most like Logan of all the kids. Logan modeled that you treat other people as badly as you can get away with until you decide to dump them. Shiv overplayed her hand, as the Roy kids always do, and now she's having a harder time swallowing the rage and humiliation of being on the losing side of the relationship (like her mother) as she is with...well, anything else.
I'm assuming the show will end with Logan dying, though if we're very lucky it will of course end with first lady Willa Roy.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:57 AM on March 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
I thought Shiv had her shit together in S1 mainly because she was the only kid smart enough to pull away from Logan's toxic orbit. I think it's pathetic that she fell back, and Logan does, too -- but the cruises coverup and Republican fundraiser episodes made it clear that Shiv did not have any deeply-held political convictions. On the other hand Nan Pierce is a pretty vicious critique of a rich lib, but she is shown to be rather competent in this episode.
Re: Shiv's marriage. The Roy kids respond to Marcia, Rhea, and Kerry like an immune system fending off an infection. It makes me wonder how many women have drifted through Logan's life, that they are immediately able to spot the entanglement. Earlier seasons made it clear that Logan was abusive to his children and employees; in some ways, Marcia's self-possession obscured that Logan is also a monster in his romantic relationships (see the institutionalized first ex-wife, and the miserable second ex-wife). Shiv's awful treatment of Tom is where she is the most like Logan of all the kids. Logan modeled that you treat other people as badly as you can get away with until you decide to dump them. Shiv overplayed her hand, as the Roy kids always do, and now she's having a harder time swallowing the rage and humiliation of being on the losing side of the relationship (like her mother) as she is with...well, anything else.
I'm assuming the show will end with Logan dying, though if we're very lucky it will of course end with first lady Willa Roy.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:57 AM on March 27, 2023 [11 favorites]
Tom is really good in thinking of himself as the good guy. ... The true Tom is the one we see with Greg.
This is what has really stuck with me about this episode, at least overnight: the deftness that the actor and the writers and the director have always had with Tom greasing Greg up to be fucked over, and how it's been stripped down to show that Tom does it solely because he fundamentally hates Greg.
posted by Etrigan at 9:21 AM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is what has really stuck with me about this episode, at least overnight: the deftness that the actor and the writers and the director have always had with Tom greasing Greg up to be fucked over, and how it's been stripped down to show that Tom does it solely because he fundamentally hates Greg.
posted by Etrigan at 9:21 AM on March 27, 2023 [2 favorites]
It was compelling to see Shiv and Logan being vulnerable. Shiv is interesting - she’s the only Roy who has been successful outside of Waystar but she’s not nearly as smart as she thinks she is. The last scene with her and Tom had me empathizing with her. She is not a good partner but I felt like Tom’s betrayal was really hurtful. That last scene was also fascinating because Tom could leave work stuff at work and be present with Shiv in a way that she can’t.
Why was Logan so mad at Shiv specifically? I feel like the Pierce deal was too easy. I like that it appears Tom lost Pierce for Logan after winning Gojo but I feel like something is up. It seems likely that Logan will blow up the Gojo deal so the kids can’t buy Pierce but then wouldn’t the shareholders remove Logan for not acting in their interests?
I hope Marcia comes back. It was interesting how Kerry arguably tried to do something nice for Logan unasked in getting the kids to call him.
I feel like we’re foreshadowing Logan’s death. Dude was way more introspective than usual.
I’m still lol-ing re: 9B.
posted by kat518 at 9:27 AM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Why was Logan so mad at Shiv specifically? I feel like the Pierce deal was too easy. I like that it appears Tom lost Pierce for Logan after winning Gojo but I feel like something is up. It seems likely that Logan will blow up the Gojo deal so the kids can’t buy Pierce but then wouldn’t the shareholders remove Logan for not acting in their interests?
I hope Marcia comes back. It was interesting how Kerry arguably tried to do something nice for Logan unasked in getting the kids to call him.
I feel like we’re foreshadowing Logan’s death. Dude was way more introspective than usual.
I’m still lol-ing re: 9B.
posted by kat518 at 9:27 AM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Re: Roman, I think he changed a lot over the course of season 3. He went from knocking Kendall over at his birthday party to standing up for him in front of his dad in the finale. I think of the kids, he is the most concerned with looking tough. He’s also in a difficult spot in that he doesn’t want to be seen as acting on anything related to principles and wants to stand out from his siblings more than the others. In that context, there’s no space for him to be a feminist anti racist. And I think that’s why he was most disappointed to give up on The Hundred - starting something new would give him a chance to prove he’s not an idiot.
posted by kat518 at 9:46 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by kat518 at 9:46 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
Nothing about Shiv and Tom's relationship made sense to me this episode, maybe because I'd just rewatched the last half hour of the season 3 finale. Remember how that ends? With Shiv wondering out loud who could have leaked their plan to Logan, and then seeing Logan pat Tom on the shoulder from across the room, her head tilted and realization playing on her face, and then in her "yeah, uh" response to him asking if she's ok, and then as she walks away, barely containing a breakdown and taking a deep breath, and then Tom coming up behind her, putting his hands in her shoulders, kissing the back of her head and saying a soft "hey" as she stares off into the distance, deep in thought about what that moment between Tom and Logan meant.
It teased a lot of potentially rich drama coming between them. I mean, it was the final shot of the season. And it was completely ignored in this episode. It's like it happened to another couple entirely. Now, we see Shiv and Tom in a trial separation where Shiv is utterly emotionally destroyed at Tom fucking someone else. Huh? When she's been fucking other people from the start and suggested an open marriage on their wedding night? And the drama between them is about *that*?
Who are these people?
Kinda disappointing.
posted by mediareport at 9:54 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
It teased a lot of potentially rich drama coming between them. I mean, it was the final shot of the season. And it was completely ignored in this episode. It's like it happened to another couple entirely. Now, we see Shiv and Tom in a trial separation where Shiv is utterly emotionally destroyed at Tom fucking someone else. Huh? When she's been fucking other people from the start and suggested an open marriage on their wedding night? And the drama between them is about *that*?
Who are these people?
Kinda disappointing.
posted by mediareport at 9:54 AM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think time has passed since the season 3 finale. (Do we know how much?) Shiv and Tom have probably gone through three waves of try-to-reconcile and then separate again. I assume we're seeing a new state for their awful marriage, not a direct continuation from the end of last episode.
posted by Nelson at 10:02 AM on March 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by Nelson at 10:02 AM on March 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
Now, we see Shiv and Tom in a trial separation where Shiv is utterly emotionally destroyed at Tom fucking someone else. Huh? When she's been fucking other people from the start and suggested an open marriage on their wedding night? And the drama between them is about *that*?
Shiv doesn't think of Tom as her equal, in any way. She didn't suggest the open marriage because she wanted Tom to also be able to sleep around, she did it to remind him that he was the junior partner and because she thought the result would be her being free to sleep around and him remaining faithful to her. If he'd taken her up on it, she would have demanded approval on his partners, or driven them away, or demeaned his choices, or done something to ensure that he kept coming back to her while she still fucked around as much as she wanted. She can't do that now, so the pain of him not needing her the way that she needs him to need her... that's what hurts.
posted by Etrigan at 10:15 AM on March 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
Shiv doesn't think of Tom as her equal, in any way. She didn't suggest the open marriage because she wanted Tom to also be able to sleep around, she did it to remind him that he was the junior partner and because she thought the result would be her being free to sleep around and him remaining faithful to her. If he'd taken her up on it, she would have demanded approval on his partners, or driven them away, or demeaned his choices, or done something to ensure that he kept coming back to her while she still fucked around as much as she wanted. She can't do that now, so the pain of him not needing her the way that she needs him to need her... that's what hurts.
posted by Etrigan at 10:15 AM on March 27, 2023 [14 favorites]
I suspect how you feel about the Roman progression probably depends whether you consider yourself to be watching a drama with some dark humour or a comedy with a prestige drama feel.
I view it as a continuation of a long tradition of British satire. It’s politics are to me nakedly: “there can *by definition* be no such thing as a decent rich person”. Its purpose is to make us laugh at the rich and to vilify the rich and it does so remorseless. Not a scene goes by that doesn’t remind us how terrible Roman is, and if he says something sensible, his character is serving the satire by pointing out how dumb and/or terrible and/or hypocritical someone else is being.
posted by chill at 11:27 AM on March 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
I view it as a continuation of a long tradition of British satire. It’s politics are to me nakedly: “there can *by definition* be no such thing as a decent rich person”. Its purpose is to make us laugh at the rich and to vilify the rich and it does so remorseless. Not a scene goes by that doesn’t remind us how terrible Roman is, and if he says something sensible, his character is serving the satire by pointing out how dumb and/or terrible and/or hypocritical someone else is being.
posted by chill at 11:27 AM on March 27, 2023 [18 favorites]
I think Shiv expected loyalty from Tom without having to give it in return. And he had been loyal for so long, no matter how much she pushed him away, making it extra painful that he isn’t living up to her expectations. Given her parents, she’s likely never experienced unconditional love and maybe thought Tom would be the one to give it. And I think he wants to be that person. But not on her terms.
Roman is just such a character, like if he materialized in front of me, I feel like I can imagine what he’d be wearing and what he would say. That makes him fun to watch - he’s entertaining in character and very compelling when he acts out of character.
I’m sure they’ll have a meltdown imminently but I really enjoy seeing the kids together.
posted by kat518 at 2:30 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
Roman is just such a character, like if he materialized in front of me, I feel like I can imagine what he’d be wearing and what he would say. That makes him fun to watch - he’s entertaining in character and very compelling when he acts out of character.
I’m sure they’ll have a meltdown imminently but I really enjoy seeing the kids together.
posted by kat518 at 2:30 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I thought this was an excellent start to the final season.
The one bit that didn't quite make sense to me was the final scene with Tom and Shiv - specifically, I have a hard time believing Shiv wouldn't be able to realize her responsibility in Tom's 'betrayal' - i.e. there is a limit to how badly you can treat someone until they'll snap. Shiv might not be great at self-awareness, but it's also clear that all the therapy she's been to has had some effect, however imperfect. And it also seems clear that Tom is still eager to be her loyal companion, revealing as his does Logan's plans to buy Pierce.
I agree with what Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted says upthread about the Tom-Greg dynamic, and I'd add that I think that part of why Greg is so fun to be mean to is that Greg is unassailable - like yes, he'll get stressed about situations, but he is an expert about bumbling through and feeling good about the outcome. I think Tom admires this, enjoys watching Greg in action, and trusts that Greg will be fine regardless of whatever prank he pulls on him. Both Tom and Greg had awkward conversations with Logan in this episode, Tom is left feeling anxious, whereas Greg is able to cling to Logan's slight smirk as a good sign.
I feel like the rehabilitation of Roman into the "competent one" is a conscious ideological choice on the part of the showrunners, and I find it fairly disturbing
Besides agreeing with chill that the show is pretty clearly showing that no of mega rich person is who we should be looking towards to "save" us/humanity/etc. since they are all, at the root of it, more concerned with their own self-interest, I'd add that Roman is pretty apolitical. He, perhaps accurately, feels that as a rich white guy it doesn't really matter who is president - so he'll support whichever candidate will make the family business more money. (Though he is wrong of course when he suggests to Gerry that he can make her so rich she doesn't haven't have to worry about climate change - he is obviously a bit delusional, like they all are). So yeah, he might be somewhat competent, from the perspective of running a business like Waystar - I really don't think that the show is suggesting that business competence equates any sort of moral or ethnical high ground though. Roman is also good at hanging back, listening, and reading people - as Gerry has observed. Shiv might have done better in the Pierce family - but trying to re-brand a company is not easy, especially when Logan is resistant to actually stepping back. It's also pretty clear from Shiv's stint with the Bernie-like politician that she's at best slightly left of center, but really not that different politically than her brothers.
posted by coffeecat at 6:15 PM on March 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
The one bit that didn't quite make sense to me was the final scene with Tom and Shiv - specifically, I have a hard time believing Shiv wouldn't be able to realize her responsibility in Tom's 'betrayal' - i.e. there is a limit to how badly you can treat someone until they'll snap. Shiv might not be great at self-awareness, but it's also clear that all the therapy she's been to has had some effect, however imperfect. And it also seems clear that Tom is still eager to be her loyal companion, revealing as his does Logan's plans to buy Pierce.
I agree with what Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted says upthread about the Tom-Greg dynamic, and I'd add that I think that part of why Greg is so fun to be mean to is that Greg is unassailable - like yes, he'll get stressed about situations, but he is an expert about bumbling through and feeling good about the outcome. I think Tom admires this, enjoys watching Greg in action, and trusts that Greg will be fine regardless of whatever prank he pulls on him. Both Tom and Greg had awkward conversations with Logan in this episode, Tom is left feeling anxious, whereas Greg is able to cling to Logan's slight smirk as a good sign.
I feel like the rehabilitation of Roman into the "competent one" is a conscious ideological choice on the part of the showrunners, and I find it fairly disturbing
Besides agreeing with chill that the show is pretty clearly showing that no of mega rich person is who we should be looking towards to "save" us/humanity/etc. since they are all, at the root of it, more concerned with their own self-interest, I'd add that Roman is pretty apolitical. He, perhaps accurately, feels that as a rich white guy it doesn't really matter who is president - so he'll support whichever candidate will make the family business more money. (Though he is wrong of course when he suggests to Gerry that he can make her so rich she doesn't haven't have to worry about climate change - he is obviously a bit delusional, like they all are). So yeah, he might be somewhat competent, from the perspective of running a business like Waystar - I really don't think that the show is suggesting that business competence equates any sort of moral or ethnical high ground though. Roman is also good at hanging back, listening, and reading people - as Gerry has observed. Shiv might have done better in the Pierce family - but trying to re-brand a company is not easy, especially when Logan is resistant to actually stepping back. It's also pretty clear from Shiv's stint with the Bernie-like politician that she's at best slightly left of center, but really not that different politically than her brothers.
posted by coffeecat at 6:15 PM on March 27, 2023 [4 favorites]
RE: Bernie-like politician
He reminded me more of Al Franken.
posted by oldnumberseven at 7:04 PM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
He reminded me more of Al Franken.
posted by oldnumberseven at 7:04 PM on March 27, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised in this discussion of Shiv's relationship with Tom that no one is mentioning the immediate impetus for Shiv's decision: she was basically ordered to by Nan as a condition of the deal. I think Shiv was on the fence about it, and seemed genuinely upset after she pulled the trigger, but felt pushed to do so before she was maybe ready by the deal they'd just made.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:55 PM on March 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:55 PM on March 27, 2023 [9 favorites]
Oh, also, calling it now: the show ends with Greg as CEO and Connor as President, the stupidest possible ending.
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:56 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by star gentle uterus at 9:56 PM on March 27, 2023 [3 favorites]
I find myself growing fonder of Willa. she delivered some prime snark this episode.
posted by supermedusa at 10:32 AM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by supermedusa at 10:32 AM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I'm surprised in this discussion of Shiv's relationship with Tom that no one is mentioning the immediate impetus for Shiv's decision: she was basically ordered to by Nan as a condition of the deal.
This was my interpretation as well. Shiv made that split-second decision and due to the momentum and adrenaline of the day, didn't fully realize what she had done until she saw him. Her arguments in that conversation were so weak because they weren't the real reason she was asking for a divorce, but she couldn't actually say the real reason.
As for who is more sympathetic or better at business: in my book, they are all pretty terrible people who I would not want to know in real life, but they are all kind of sympathetic because of the abusive, dysfunctional family dynamic they are stuck in. Also, none of them is capable of running a big business, full stop. Roman might have been the voice of reason here, but we're not supposed to see him as a genius.
posted by lunasol at 11:28 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
This was my interpretation as well. Shiv made that split-second decision and due to the momentum and adrenaline of the day, didn't fully realize what she had done until she saw him. Her arguments in that conversation were so weak because they weren't the real reason she was asking for a divorce, but she couldn't actually say the real reason.
As for who is more sympathetic or better at business: in my book, they are all pretty terrible people who I would not want to know in real life, but they are all kind of sympathetic because of the abusive, dysfunctional family dynamic they are stuck in. Also, none of them is capable of running a big business, full stop. Roman might have been the voice of reason here, but we're not supposed to see him as a genius.
posted by lunasol at 11:28 AM on March 28, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm surprised in this discussion of Shiv's relationship with Tom that no one is mentioning the immediate impetus for Shiv's decision: she was basically ordered to by Nan as a condition of the deal.
I guess I’m not convinced that they will actually get a divorce. Sure, maybe they will but I think he loves her and she, in her way, loves him and besides Nan, there’s no impetus for them to get a divorce right now.
A crazy idea I’ve been pondering - Tom basically baited Shiv into going after Pierce. Why? He knows that Nan dislikes him. Maybe he did it to push Shiv to move for a divorce or give him a reason to leave ATN (reduce appearance of conflict of interest with his wife’s work). I think the latter is more likely than the former because I don’t think he wants a divorce.
posted by kat518 at 11:53 AM on March 28, 2023
I guess I’m not convinced that they will actually get a divorce. Sure, maybe they will but I think he loves her and she, in her way, loves him and besides Nan, there’s no impetus for them to get a divorce right now.
A crazy idea I’ve been pondering - Tom basically baited Shiv into going after Pierce. Why? He knows that Nan dislikes him. Maybe he did it to push Shiv to move for a divorce or give him a reason to leave ATN (reduce appearance of conflict of interest with his wife’s work). I think the latter is more likely than the former because I don’t think he wants a divorce.
posted by kat518 at 11:53 AM on March 28, 2023
Kat518, I can see this Pierce deal falling through and Shiv will be all “we don’t have to get divorced now!”
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 12:04 PM on March 28, 2023
posted by computech_apolloniajames at 12:04 PM on March 28, 2023
re: Roman being competent, I feel like the show's done a pretty clear job of signaling that Roman:
One of the most fascinating things about Succession is how it reflects its different characters' attitudes towards their wealth and power:
And Logan, who all of these people define themselves by, came from a hellhole, thinks of the world as a hellhole, and thinks of himself as the best survivor, plain and simple. Everything he does for his kids is a comparative mercy: he'll slap Roman's teeth out, but that's nothing on what his uncle did to him. And I think his fundamental Lear-esque tragedy is that, in his twisted way, he does love his kids—even though, by his own way of seeing the world, they are incompetent beyond belief—and doesn't know how to reconcile his desire to see them happy with the fact that, well, if he was them, he'd hate himself, so all he knows how to do is try and torture them into being more like him.
It feels like Roman caught the brunt of that more than anybody. As a result, he's a grotesque shell of a man: he was totally willing to fuck about in high places because he knew he hadn't earned it and it didn't matter; as he's learning a thing or two about competence, he's "learning" it by successfully emulating his father. He has a heart, but the people he'd most want to open up to are the people who are likeliest to savage him for trying. And he seemingly only gets off to two things: acknowledgment of his own unearned power, and people rightly calling him despicable for his entitled abuse of it.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 12:50 PM on March 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
- Is a little more self-aware as to how delusional, privileged, and fucked-up his family is
- Has some really intense attachment issues to his father, up to and including trying to emulate his values system despite understanding, on some level, that said values are nihilistic and awful.
One of the most fascinating things about Succession is how it reflects its different characters' attitudes towards their wealth and power:
- Logan flat-out doesn't believe in humanity: he comes from a dark enough pit that he thinks "better angels" are all illusory.
- Roman is aware that there is a churning throng of suffering beneath his family, and he's also aware that he and everyone he knows is completely detached from it. For all his limited empathy shows up when the opportunity arises (e.g. with Brian during management training), those opportunities are few and far between, and he's too mired in his own fears and self-interests to really "care" about the fucked-up thing that he knows is fucked.
- Shiv understands that her family is basically evil, and defines her identity as "the good one" amidst all that, while constantly rationalizing all of her behaviors as necessary or pragmatic (in a way that makes for a great lampoon of neoliberal progressives imo).
- Kendall is in denial—he "gets" things, in the sense that he'll go "yeah, uh huh" to them, but not a lot really sinks in. I think that his defining trait, in a lot of ways, is underestimating complexity: he has a really childlike understanding of the world, and that extends to how easily he takes on new identities and thinks that everyone else will go along with them too.
- Connor is a fundamental elitist: he thinks he's earned everything that he has, and affablt expects other people to naturally recognize his superiority over them.
- Tom is enough of an outsider to all this that he fundamentally grasps this, and even occasionally has a conscience about it, but he's ambitious, and understands the game he's playing pretty cold-bloodedly.
And Logan, who all of these people define themselves by, came from a hellhole, thinks of the world as a hellhole, and thinks of himself as the best survivor, plain and simple. Everything he does for his kids is a comparative mercy: he'll slap Roman's teeth out, but that's nothing on what his uncle did to him. And I think his fundamental Lear-esque tragedy is that, in his twisted way, he does love his kids—even though, by his own way of seeing the world, they are incompetent beyond belief—and doesn't know how to reconcile his desire to see them happy with the fact that, well, if he was them, he'd hate himself, so all he knows how to do is try and torture them into being more like him.
It feels like Roman caught the brunt of that more than anybody. As a result, he's a grotesque shell of a man: he was totally willing to fuck about in high places because he knew he hadn't earned it and it didn't matter; as he's learning a thing or two about competence, he's "learning" it by successfully emulating his father. He has a heart, but the people he'd most want to open up to are the people who are likeliest to savage him for trying. And he seemingly only gets off to two things: acknowledgment of his own unearned power, and people rightly calling him despicable for his entitled abuse of it.
posted by Tom Hanks Cannot Be Trusted at 12:50 PM on March 28, 2023 [21 favorites]
The Munsters was a classic mid 60s sitcom best described as the Patty Duke show with the family all vampires and frankensteins. What's with the episode title? What did Logan mean by that when describing his birthday crowd?
posted by whuppy at 1:54 PM on March 28, 2023
posted by whuppy at 1:54 PM on March 28, 2023
What did Logan mean by that when describing his birthday crowd?
I read it as dismissively calling them a bunch of freaks. By saying "The Munsters" instead of "The Addams Family", he was probably also saying they were the lower-tier bunch of freaks.
posted by Etrigan at 4:06 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
I read it as dismissively calling them a bunch of freaks. By saying "The Munsters" instead of "The Addams Family", he was probably also saying they were the lower-tier bunch of freaks.
posted by Etrigan at 4:06 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Oh, also, calling it now: the show ends with Greg as CEO and Connor as President, the stupidest possible ending.
Cousin Greg may end up on the Iron Throne; however, despite his interest in politics from a young age, Connor‘s going to find out what is below one percent.
I think Succession is going to have a Peep Show ending. Kendall staring off into the distance while wolves howl, forever.
Tom hopelessly in love with Shiv and Tom using a subordinate as a footstool are both the real Tom.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:06 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Cousin Greg may end up on the Iron Throne; however, despite his interest in politics from a young age, Connor‘s going to find out what is below one percent.
I think Succession is going to have a Peep Show ending. Kendall staring off into the distance while wolves howl, forever.
Tom hopelessly in love with Shiv and Tom using a subordinate as a footstool are both the real Tom.
posted by betweenthebars at 6:06 PM on March 28, 2023 [4 favorites]
Tom basically baited Shiv into going after Pierce. Why?
Did he though? I thought this was him worrying what Shiv would think if/when she found out about him and Naomi.
If it was deliberate, I like the idea that he knows the Pierce company is toxic, just a pointless expensive obsession for Logan, and he was quietly scuppering it.
But I think really, he just cares what Shiv thinks about him.
posted by chill at 12:32 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
Did he though? I thought this was him worrying what Shiv would think if/when she found out about him and Naomi.
If it was deliberate, I like the idea that he knows the Pierce company is toxic, just a pointless expensive obsession for Logan, and he was quietly scuppering it.
But I think really, he just cares what Shiv thinks about him.
posted by chill at 12:32 AM on March 29, 2023 [3 favorites]
I think it will end up where they started, but with Logan dying. No winners except they will all still be rich but that isn't winning for any of them. None of them will resolve their issues with Logan. Or each other. Logan's death will rob them of any possibility of resolving their issues.
posted by biffa at 11:00 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by biffa at 11:00 AM on March 29, 2023 [2 favorites]
Tom basically baited Shiv into going after Pierce. Why?
I think the Pierces baited the Roys, knowing that sending Naomi to Tom would get Shiv and her siblings engaged.
posted by roolya_boolya at 1:01 PM on March 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
I think the Pierces baited the Roys, knowing that sending Naomi to Tom would get Shiv and her siblings engaged.
posted by roolya_boolya at 1:01 PM on March 29, 2023 [5 favorites]
Kerry coming out of the gate hot as my new favorite character.
"Marcia is shopping in Milan. Forever."
posted by guiseroom at 12:17 PM on March 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
"Marcia is shopping in Milan. Forever."
posted by guiseroom at 12:17 PM on March 30, 2023 [5 favorites]
I don't get why people in this thread are claiming that Roman is the competent one now. He just doesn't want to overly fight his dad, because he's afraid of him. His interest in launching a quixotic crummy techbro new media startup isn't any more competent than launching a quixotic bidding war to buy a crumbling old newspaper. More fiscally prudent, maybe. That seems more measured, and thus reasonable, but he's motivated by fear just as his siblings are motivated by greed and spite.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:42 AM on March 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Apocryphon at 11:42 AM on March 31, 2023 [1 favorite]
I read it as dismissively calling them a bunch of freaks. By saying "The Munsters" instead of "The Addams Family", he was probably also saying they were the lower-tier bunch of freaks.
Very much reminiscent of when the newly-indicted former president occasionally made very dated pop culture references to Alfred E. Neuman and the Lone Ranger.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:44 AM on March 31, 2023
Very much reminiscent of when the newly-indicted former president occasionally made very dated pop culture references to Alfred E. Neuman and the Lone Ranger.
posted by Apocryphon at 11:44 AM on March 31, 2023
I don't get why people in this thread are claiming that Roman is the competent one now. He just doesn't want to overly fight his dad, because he's afraid of him.
Not wanting to go directly against Logan Roy is evidence of competence, all else being equal.
posted by Etrigan at 12:14 PM on March 31, 2023
Not wanting to go directly against Logan Roy is evidence of competence, all else being equal.
posted by Etrigan at 12:14 PM on March 31, 2023
Yeah, but his alternate suggestion sounds really lame, not a sign of competence!
The Hundred seems to be his vanity vehicle to move on from WayStar, which is fine, but it's little different from when Kendall was begging hip starving artists to be their VC.
Not wanting to tussle with Logan is a smart move, perhaps a sign of maturity, but I don't think it makes him all that much more competent than his siblings. It differentiates, but does not elevate.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:43 PM on March 31, 2023
The Hundred seems to be his vanity vehicle to move on from WayStar, which is fine, but it's little different from when Kendall was begging hip starving artists to be their VC.
Not wanting to tussle with Logan is a smart move, perhaps a sign of maturity, but I don't think it makes him all that much more competent than his siblings. It differentiates, but does not elevate.
posted by Apocryphon at 1:43 PM on March 31, 2023
Yeah, but his alternate suggestion sounds really lame, not a sign of competence!
What are you talking about? It has the ethos of a non-profit, but with a path to crazy margins!
I think that the Pierce acquisition is such a monumentally terrible idea that it's easy to forget the The Hundred is just a regular terrible idea.
posted by Ragged Richard at 2:31 PM on March 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
What are you talking about? It has the ethos of a non-profit, but with a path to crazy margins!
I think that the Pierce acquisition is such a monumentally terrible idea that it's easy to forget the The Hundred is just a regular terrible idea.
posted by Ragged Richard at 2:31 PM on March 31, 2023 [2 favorites]
The substack masterclass mic company is stupid, but small-stakes, and they intended to build it with investor money. It sure sounds like the Pierce acquisition is being backed, in part, with all of the kids' personal wealth. That might be a scenario where I'd try to do a bit of nickel-and-diming! It also sounds like Pierce media is losing consumers every year; I do not believe the Roy kids have the magic touch to turn that around.
posted by grandiloquiet at 2:57 PM on March 31, 2023
posted by grandiloquiet at 2:57 PM on March 31, 2023
I don't get why people in this thread are claiming that Roman is the competent one now.
I mean, it’s all relative isn’t it :).
posted by chill at 4:09 AM on April 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
I mean, it’s all relative isn’t it :).
posted by chill at 4:09 AM on April 1, 2023 [1 favorite]
A shout out to poor Bridget with her appetite for “ludicrously capacious” Burberry bags, display towels, 'wacky tobacky', actually eating canapés and defilement of guest bedrooms. I love that her selfie request to Logan is left to our imagination.
posted by rongorongo at 10:33 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by rongorongo at 10:33 PM on April 3, 2023 [1 favorite]
I read it as dismissively calling them a bunch of freaks. By saying "The Munsters" instead of "The Addams Family", he was probably also saying they were the lower-tier bunch of freaks.
Also The Munsters notably had one non-monster family member surrounded by the rest of the freaks - Logan may be in the family, he's just not of it.
I really want Bridget to actually be a mole.
posted by Mchelly at 12:18 PM on April 4, 2023
Also The Munsters notably had one non-monster family member surrounded by the rest of the freaks - Logan may be in the family, he's just not of it.
I really want Bridget to actually be a mole.
posted by Mchelly at 12:18 PM on April 4, 2023
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Logan's unrest at his party was interesting. He really does seem to appreciate the presence of his younger kids more than Connor, and misses them (though not enough to stop emotionally abusing them). You could see him shifting his treatment of Kerry from cosseted pet to underling with his dissatisfaction, and the way he started casting out to bully his employees when he wasn't getting what he needed from the night.
That's probably the last we'll see of monstrous Nan Pierce, but that's a shame. As Logan's horrifying counterpart/antagonist, she steals every scene.
posted by grandiloquiet at 8:05 PM on March 26, 2023 [4 favorites]