Ahsoka: Fallen Jedi
September 6, 2023 1:46 AM - Season 1, Episode 4 - Subscribe
Hera risks her career to help her friends while Ahsoka and Sabine confront their enemies.
Had to look up what Marrock's deal was (despite having watched Rebels and Clone Wars) - I think he was a corpse reanimated by Nightsister* force magic, hence why he dissolved into green mist when he died
(*aka the Witches of Dathomir, Morgan Elsbeth's ancestors)
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:00 AM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
(*aka the Witches of Dathomir, Morgan Elsbeth's ancestors)
posted by EndsOfInvention at 4:00 AM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
IIRC the last time Ahsoka met him was when she dueled Vader in Rebels.
And when she dueled Vader, she was saved from death at the last moment because she was pulled into the Plot Armor Dimension, which is exactly what happened here again.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:59 AM on September 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
And when she dueled Vader, she was saved from death at the last moment because she was pulled into the Plot Armor Dimension, which is exactly what happened here again.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 4:59 AM on September 6, 2023 [9 favorites]
Great episode! I liked the droid-to-droid combat as well as the lightsaber/blaster fights. Can't wait to see what happens next, though presumably Ahsoka is just having a near death experience and will wake up after some mystic nonsense.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:58 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 5:58 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I don't like how Sabine has been turned into a complete incompetent. Ahsoka, if you feel the need to ask someone 'can I trust you?' the answer is NO. She should have stayed on Lothal and gotten a good therapist.
Once again the baddies steal the show. Baylan is such a great antagonist, I can't wait to see more of him.
posted by orrnyereg at 6:00 AM on September 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Once again the baddies steal the show. Baylan is such a great antagonist, I can't wait to see more of him.
posted by orrnyereg at 6:00 AM on September 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
Had to look up what Marrock's deal was (despite having watched Rebels and Clone Wars) - I think he was a corpse reanimated by Nightsister* force magic, hence why he dissolved into green mist when he died (*aka the Witches of Dathomir, Morgan Elsbeth's ancestors)
I hadn't thought of this, but this is a great theory!
A couple of plot points that felt weak - Hera bringing her kid along and Sabine giving into Skoll.
Hera bringing Jacen along wasn't shocking really. She probably believes he's safest by her side and well, she was basically fighting the Empire since only a few years older than him. It's also clear he's been brought up as her copilot and by the end of Rebels it's indicative that he's quite the flyer. And lastly, of course, it isn't Star Wars if children aren't in the mix!
It is growing abundantly clear that Jacen does have some kind of Force sensitivity, be it the end of Rebels where it's implied he's taking after his father, Kanan (Jedi), and here at the very end, "I'm getting a bad feeling." So his presence is going to play some role in all of this, minor or otherwise, by the end of the show. Perhaps setting him down the path of learning the Force.
For Sabine, well, that's been the picking point for the character since the first introduction. Even the first reference. It was the promise of saving Ezra that initially got her aboard (literally) in helping Ahsoka figure out the map and while it was unclear "how" Baylan knew that her family had been wiped out on Mandalore, his words that Ezra was some of the only family she had left (not 100% true - Hera and Jacen, Zeb where ever he is on that tropical Rebel base) definitely had power to them. We were prepped for Sabine to make that choice, Ezra over Thrawn by Ahsoka's conversation about having to make choices. It really leans into the Jedi philosophy of attachment, of letting go when you must, and here, Sabine, the padawan, failed to do so.
There's an argument that she also thought Ahsoka was killed, which adds to the weight of the moment. She's all alone and someone is promising to reconnect her with one of the people she is closest to in the entire galaxy(ies). This moment also played an important part in answering the question that had lingered since the Rebels's finale, why didn't Sabine return to Mandalore to help her people in their fight. The best answer we had prior to this moment was that she felt a duty to Ezra to watch over Lothal in case the Empire returned, as there was a strong sense that it would do so - but it never did. Now we learned that her inability to return to Mandalore was tied to her apprenticeship to Ahsoka. That apprenticeship apparently, in part, collapsing when presumably Sabine chose not to given in to her attachments (i.e., her family - she had parents and a brother) and rush off to try and save/help them. Here, faced with the same question, now even presumably without her master, she gives in.
I don't know if this is a correct interpretation, but Sabine leaving her helmet behind her to continue to rush to Ahsoka's aid seemed to imply that she was leaving her past behind her to serve as a padawan to Ahsoka. Then that fell apart when Baylan called her bluff.
I also enjoyed the lightsaber work in this episode, and I agree, I think it's probably some of the best since fight choreography we've had so far on D+. I appreciated how Shin's style definitely reflected her master's. I also enjoyed the fight between Ahsoka/Sabine and the droids. They always did better together, after all.
Other things of note: "Fallen Jedi" well, we had a literal Jedi falling, we had a Jedi who fell (spiritually), and then there's a question of whether Sabine's decision to surrender the map represented a falling on her part. Granted, the fact she was in bindings indicated the antagonists still saw her as an enemy not to be trusted - so I don't think you can say she switched sides or anything of that sense. The "why" behind Baylan's figurative fall is going to be one of the pressing mysteries and with Ray Stevenson's excellent acting so far with the character, I can't wait to simply sit and take it in.
I loved the transition from waves to Ahsoka in the World Between Worlds, granted, in the past, there was a portal to WBW - at least for Ezra Bridger. Ahsoka was yanked into it by Ezra through a portal only visible/located within the this place within the Force. For those not familiar with the World Between Worlds, it played a significant part in season four of Rebels in which Ezra Bridger entered the space, a place within the Force that connects everything outside of space and time, saved Ahsoka from death inside an ancient Sith temple, and offered him an opportunity to save his master, Kanan, a temptation he resisted that prepared him for a similiar temptation in the series finale. Since this moment, arguably, Ahsoka has been connected to the Force and to a Force entity known as the Sister.
The Sister was featured, in turn, in the Mortis Arc of The Clone Wars. when Anakin, Ahsoka, and Kenobi, find themselves pulled into essentially a pocket universe that existed within the Force, where three Force spirits, the Father, the Brother, and the Sister, dwelled. The details of that arc aren't super significant other than the Sister was a representation of the light side, the Brother the dark side, and the father held them in balance. Anakin was offered the chance to assume the Father's place to maintain that balance but rejected it, in part, because of his attachment to Padmé. Oh, and well, Ahsoka also died there, too! (But got better - Mystical Force powers stuff). The entrance to the World Between Worlds was connected to a mural of...the Mortis Gods (as they are also known).
Which is to say, it seems that either Ahsoka's prior experience with the mystical side of the Force or even the WBW resulted in her unconsciously traveling to this place within the Force, OR Anakin Skywalker pulled her there. That leads us to the big reveal, freakin' Anakin Skywalker, notably played by Hayden Christensen, the actor engaging with Ahsoka's character directly for the very first time! (Previously, Anakin was voiced in other series by Matt Lanter.) As is, Force Ghosts (beings?) don't just randomly chat with their friends and family, so presumably, next episode, Anakin is going to share help, knowledge, probably related to helping Ahsoka understand her padawan, among other things, and help get her on her way via the Purgill express to Ezra and Thrawn.
Overall, pretty fun and solid episode, and shout out to our man, Carson Teva, always delight to see such a big Star Wars fan in the cockpit of a T-65!
posted by Atreides at 6:58 AM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
I hadn't thought of this, but this is a great theory!
A couple of plot points that felt weak - Hera bringing her kid along and Sabine giving into Skoll.
Hera bringing Jacen along wasn't shocking really. She probably believes he's safest by her side and well, she was basically fighting the Empire since only a few years older than him. It's also clear he's been brought up as her copilot and by the end of Rebels it's indicative that he's quite the flyer. And lastly, of course, it isn't Star Wars if children aren't in the mix!
It is growing abundantly clear that Jacen does have some kind of Force sensitivity, be it the end of Rebels where it's implied he's taking after his father, Kanan (Jedi), and here at the very end, "I'm getting a bad feeling." So his presence is going to play some role in all of this, minor or otherwise, by the end of the show. Perhaps setting him down the path of learning the Force.
For Sabine, well, that's been the picking point for the character since the first introduction. Even the first reference. It was the promise of saving Ezra that initially got her aboard (literally) in helping Ahsoka figure out the map and while it was unclear "how" Baylan knew that her family had been wiped out on Mandalore, his words that Ezra was some of the only family she had left (not 100% true - Hera and Jacen, Zeb where ever he is on that tropical Rebel base) definitely had power to them. We were prepped for Sabine to make that choice, Ezra over Thrawn by Ahsoka's conversation about having to make choices. It really leans into the Jedi philosophy of attachment, of letting go when you must, and here, Sabine, the padawan, failed to do so.
There's an argument that she also thought Ahsoka was killed, which adds to the weight of the moment. She's all alone and someone is promising to reconnect her with one of the people she is closest to in the entire galaxy(ies). This moment also played an important part in answering the question that had lingered since the Rebels's finale, why didn't Sabine return to Mandalore to help her people in their fight. The best answer we had prior to this moment was that she felt a duty to Ezra to watch over Lothal in case the Empire returned, as there was a strong sense that it would do so - but it never did. Now we learned that her inability to return to Mandalore was tied to her apprenticeship to Ahsoka. That apprenticeship apparently, in part, collapsing when presumably Sabine chose not to given in to her attachments (i.e., her family - she had parents and a brother) and rush off to try and save/help them. Here, faced with the same question, now even presumably without her master, she gives in.
I don't know if this is a correct interpretation, but Sabine leaving her helmet behind her to continue to rush to Ahsoka's aid seemed to imply that she was leaving her past behind her to serve as a padawan to Ahsoka. Then that fell apart when Baylan called her bluff.
I also enjoyed the lightsaber work in this episode, and I agree, I think it's probably some of the best since fight choreography we've had so far on D+. I appreciated how Shin's style definitely reflected her master's. I also enjoyed the fight between Ahsoka/Sabine and the droids. They always did better together, after all.
Other things of note: "Fallen Jedi" well, we had a literal Jedi falling, we had a Jedi who fell (spiritually), and then there's a question of whether Sabine's decision to surrender the map represented a falling on her part. Granted, the fact she was in bindings indicated the antagonists still saw her as an enemy not to be trusted - so I don't think you can say she switched sides or anything of that sense. The "why" behind Baylan's figurative fall is going to be one of the pressing mysteries and with Ray Stevenson's excellent acting so far with the character, I can't wait to simply sit and take it in.
I loved the transition from waves to Ahsoka in the World Between Worlds, granted, in the past, there was a portal to WBW - at least for Ezra Bridger. Ahsoka was yanked into it by Ezra through a portal only visible/located within the this place within the Force. For those not familiar with the World Between Worlds, it played a significant part in season four of Rebels in which Ezra Bridger entered the space, a place within the Force that connects everything outside of space and time, saved Ahsoka from death inside an ancient Sith temple, and offered him an opportunity to save his master, Kanan, a temptation he resisted that prepared him for a similiar temptation in the series finale. Since this moment, arguably, Ahsoka has been connected to the Force and to a Force entity known as the Sister.
The Sister was featured, in turn, in the Mortis Arc of The Clone Wars. when Anakin, Ahsoka, and Kenobi, find themselves pulled into essentially a pocket universe that existed within the Force, where three Force spirits, the Father, the Brother, and the Sister, dwelled. The details of that arc aren't super significant other than the Sister was a representation of the light side, the Brother the dark side, and the father held them in balance. Anakin was offered the chance to assume the Father's place to maintain that balance but rejected it, in part, because of his attachment to Padmé. Oh, and well, Ahsoka also died there, too! (But got better - Mystical Force powers stuff). The entrance to the World Between Worlds was connected to a mural of...the Mortis Gods (as they are also known).
Which is to say, it seems that either Ahsoka's prior experience with the mystical side of the Force or even the WBW resulted in her unconsciously traveling to this place within the Force, OR Anakin Skywalker pulled her there. That leads us to the big reveal, freakin' Anakin Skywalker, notably played by Hayden Christensen, the actor engaging with Ahsoka's character directly for the very first time! (Previously, Anakin was voiced in other series by Matt Lanter.) As is, Force Ghosts (beings?) don't just randomly chat with their friends and family, so presumably, next episode, Anakin is going to share help, knowledge, probably related to helping Ahsoka understand her padawan, among other things, and help get her on her way via the Purgill express to Ezra and Thrawn.
Overall, pretty fun and solid episode, and shout out to our man, Carson Teva, always delight to see such a big Star Wars fan in the cockpit of a T-65!
posted by Atreides at 6:58 AM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
My immediate reaction to this episode was "wow barely anything happened, AGAIN" but the more I think about it the more I like it. I'm trying to see it as "taking an ambling, meditative pace" when the modern TV watcher in me is saying "slow, slow, SLOW!!" It's just, when seasons are short and the breaks between them are long, and especially knowing the strike is going to push everything out by months that anyone intended to do this year, it's hard to savor the journey because I know there's so little time. God I miss 22-episode seasons! I feel like Filoni's style fits them so much better. There's just a lot more room to breathe.
There was a lot to like here though. The battles were very watchable, interesting swordplay going on. This is the first sword-heavy Star Wars I've watched since I started doing a sword sport myself and it definitely adds a dimension I didn't know I was missing. I also liked tallying all the different ways Jedi were falling over the course of the episode. Saw that title and was like "oh boy."
But I think what I liked best was getting the perspective on Dooku's lineage from some random other Temple Jedi! Because yes Baylan was manipulating Sabine but it absolutely had the ring of truth to me that contemporaneous Temple gossip was that the Disaster Lineage was in fact an utter fucking disaster that was going to get them all killed! Little did they know how right they were! I want to hear more about what other Jedi thought of Anakin and Obi-wan during the war.
Did others think it might have been Matt Lanter saying "hey Snips"? It sounded more like him to me and seems like the kind of uncredited cameo they'd bring him in for.
posted by potrzebie at 7:31 AM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
There was a lot to like here though. The battles were very watchable, interesting swordplay going on. This is the first sword-heavy Star Wars I've watched since I started doing a sword sport myself and it definitely adds a dimension I didn't know I was missing. I also liked tallying all the different ways Jedi were falling over the course of the episode. Saw that title and was like "oh boy."
But I think what I liked best was getting the perspective on Dooku's lineage from some random other Temple Jedi! Because yes Baylan was manipulating Sabine but it absolutely had the ring of truth to me that contemporaneous Temple gossip was that the Disaster Lineage was in fact an utter fucking disaster that was going to get them all killed! Little did they know how right they were! I want to hear more about what other Jedi thought of Anakin and Obi-wan during the war.
Did others think it might have been Matt Lanter saying "hey Snips"? It sounded more like him to me and seems like the kind of uncredited cameo they'd bring him in for.
posted by potrzebie at 7:31 AM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
But I think what I liked best was getting the perspective on Dooku's lineage from some random other Temple Jedi!
For those wondering!
Yoda > Count Dooku > Qui-Gon Jin > Obi-Wan Kenobi > Anakin Skywalker > Ahsoka Tano.
posted by Atreides at 7:37 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
For those wondering!
Yoda > Count Dooku > Qui-Gon Jin > Obi-Wan Kenobi > Anakin Skywalker > Ahsoka Tano.
posted by Atreides at 7:37 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
It seemed a bit odd to me that Anakin's force ghost is now younger than Ahsoka. But apparently he "metaphorically died after becoming Vader... When Anakin was redeemed upon saving Luke in Return of the Jedi, his inner person would go back to where we left it off."
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:16 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 8:16 AM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
S'why Young Anakin replaced Old Anakin in Return of the Jedi's special edition.*
*Or something. George Lucas just cruising along being George Lucas.
posted by Atreides at 8:23 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
*Or something. George Lucas just cruising along being George Lucas.
posted by Atreides at 8:23 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
It seemed a bit odd to me that Anakin's force ghost is now younger than Ahsoka. But apparently he "metaphorically died after becoming Vader... When Anakin was redeemed upon saving Luke in Return of the Jedi, his inner person would go back to where we left it off."
Not really a fan of that retcon in service of getting Hayden Christensen's ghost into Return of the Jedi BUT I do love that Hayden has returned in Ahsoka here, so we'll call it even.
Atreides - great comment, always enjoy your insights on the Star Wars shows!
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:23 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Not really a fan of that retcon in service of getting Hayden Christensen's ghost into Return of the Jedi BUT I do love that Hayden has returned in Ahsoka here, so we'll call it even.
Atreides - great comment, always enjoy your insights on the Star Wars shows!
posted by EndsOfInvention at 8:23 AM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
I have my suspicions that this isn't Force Ghost Anakin, but a timey-wimey Clone Wars Era Anakin.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:31 AM on September 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
posted by 1970s Antihero at 8:31 AM on September 6, 2023 [8 favorites]
I think this was my favourite episode so far but Baylan and Shin are why I watch right now. The lightsaber fight between Baylan and Ahsoka was great, and the actress playing Shin does a great job of looking at once terrified and in thrall to her master. I also liked that Baylan stopped Shin from force choking Sabine in order to keep his promise. I want to know much more about his history.
I loved Sabine in Rebels, but she's been frustrating in this show so far and I'm not sure how she will recover in terms of the damage to her characterization as being basically competent.
posted by synecdoche at 9:09 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
I loved Sabine in Rebels, but she's been frustrating in this show so far and I'm not sure how she will recover in terms of the damage to her characterization as being basically competent.
posted by synecdoche at 9:09 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Oh I also wanted to mention that from a costuming perspective this is rapidly becoming my favorite Star Wars of all time. LOVING all the samurai/kendo touches on a bunch of the costumes, and the contrast of Shin's Jeanne d'Arc look!!
posted by potrzebie at 10:08 AM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 10:08 AM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
Note that this Anakin is wearing a different outfit from Ewok Party Anakin. I expect he is not to be trusted. (Not to mention the breathing at the very end.)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 10:16 AM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 10:16 AM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
This has been a helpful discussion, thanks.
Shin is just riveting to watch, isn't she? This is all the actor's choices; I'm super-impressed. The character, as written, is pretty one-note and uninspired, but Ivanna Sakhno brings a fascinating energy. Someone said about the first episode that it's like at any moment she'll don a necklace made of ears; but Sakhno started with that but is now showing that the very talented and intense young woman is hiding some fear underneath that facade. It's as if she came from a very difficult childhood and this is her one path to something more and she's desperate not to lose it.
Personally, I really enjoy the lightsaber battles. Always have. So that's been a big part of the appeal, for me.
Dawson is a fine actor, but I just really think she's leaning too hard into the whole measured gravitas thing. It's making the character less interesting.
They really are setting up something with the Force and Sabine, aren't they? She keeps failing completely and having ner nose rubbed in it. It seems way too cliche to have her be "blocked" and to subsequently break free and show strong Force ability — I hope that's not what they're doing. But if not that, then what?
I so much do not care about Anakin. It's possible that Hayden Christensen is an energy vampire.
I'm not that impressed with the "witchy" Force users, partly because I can imagine something much, much more interesting than the weak sauce we're getting.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:40 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Shin is just riveting to watch, isn't she? This is all the actor's choices; I'm super-impressed. The character, as written, is pretty one-note and uninspired, but Ivanna Sakhno brings a fascinating energy. Someone said about the first episode that it's like at any moment she'll don a necklace made of ears; but Sakhno started with that but is now showing that the very talented and intense young woman is hiding some fear underneath that facade. It's as if she came from a very difficult childhood and this is her one path to something more and she's desperate not to lose it.
Personally, I really enjoy the lightsaber battles. Always have. So that's been a big part of the appeal, for me.
Dawson is a fine actor, but I just really think she's leaning too hard into the whole measured gravitas thing. It's making the character less interesting.
They really are setting up something with the Force and Sabine, aren't they? She keeps failing completely and having ner nose rubbed in it. It seems way too cliche to have her be "blocked" and to subsequently break free and show strong Force ability — I hope that's not what they're doing. But if not that, then what?
I so much do not care about Anakin. It's possible that Hayden Christensen is an energy vampire.
I'm not that impressed with the "witchy" Force users, partly because I can imagine something much, much more interesting than the weak sauce we're getting.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 12:40 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
They really are setting up something with the Force and Sabine, aren't they? She keeps failing completely and having ner nose rubbed in it. It seems way too cliche to have her be "blocked" and to subsequently break free and show strong Force ability — I hope that's not what they're doing. But if not that, then what?
It's totally what we're getting, but the odds it's going to result in a strong Force ability are up in the air. Best guess is that it's going to involve Shin threatening Ezra or something to that effect, since there's a sequence of Sabine v. Shin with Sabine gradually rising to meet Shin's challenge. We have exactly four episodes left. In the last one, Sabine basically brought it to a draw by relying on her Mandalorian skills - specifically what Ahsoka shared would not be enough. If Sabine is going to defeat Shin, it's going to be through connecting with the Force. My best bet is that it happens in episode seven or so, but it may be saved for the finale.
posted by Atreides at 1:04 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's totally what we're getting, but the odds it's going to result in a strong Force ability are up in the air. Best guess is that it's going to involve Shin threatening Ezra or something to that effect, since there's a sequence of Sabine v. Shin with Sabine gradually rising to meet Shin's challenge. We have exactly four episodes left. In the last one, Sabine basically brought it to a draw by relying on her Mandalorian skills - specifically what Ahsoka shared would not be enough. If Sabine is going to defeat Shin, it's going to be through connecting with the Force. My best bet is that it happens in episode seven or so, but it may be saved for the finale.
posted by Atreides at 1:04 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Well, here's hoping they manage to make it fresh and powerful instead the weak trope it looks likely to be.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:52 PM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 1:52 PM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]
Yeah I'm going to be really annoyed if Sabine actually turns out to be super strong in the Force once she just starts relaxing and believing in herself. Come on man.
posted by potrzebie at 2:31 PM on September 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 2:31 PM on September 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Amusingly, having been an angry punk teenager with, uh, Shin's exact haircut, terrible posture, and general "woke up on the wrong side of LIFE" vibe, I found her scary in a "this girl is unpredictable because she's self-destructive and fully believes she has nothing to lose" way, but my main reaction to her was "this is a kid who needs a HUG and a PEER GROUP". I guess I truly am a mom now
posted by potrzebie at 2:45 PM on September 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
posted by potrzebie at 2:45 PM on September 6, 2023 [12 favorites]
Zeb where ever he is on that tropical Rebel base
I was very annoyed that Zeb wasn't in the Ghost or one of the X-wings. I mean c'MON Dave dagnabit
I don't like how Sabine has been turned into a complete incompetent
Yes, this definitely isn't your Rebels Sabine.
posted by coriolisdave at 3:49 PM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I was very annoyed that Zeb wasn't in the Ghost or one of the X-wings. I mean c'MON Dave dagnabit
I don't like how Sabine has been turned into a complete incompetent
Yes, this definitely isn't your Rebels Sabine.
posted by coriolisdave at 3:49 PM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I'm also finding myself increasingly frustrated at the reiteration of the "Ahsoka walks away from everything" theme. Especially the implication that, if she stuck around, she could've saved Anakin.
Get all the way fucked. That's abuser talk.
Anakin made his own fucking decisions and snips shouldn't be on the hook for them in any way, shape, or form.
posted by coriolisdave at 4:07 PM on September 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
Get all the way fucked. That's abuser talk.
Anakin made his own fucking decisions and snips shouldn't be on the hook for them in any way, shape, or form.
posted by coriolisdave at 4:07 PM on September 6, 2023 [17 favorites]
Ahsoka has been blamed constantly since she was a padawan for all kinds of crap that isn't her fault. It's why she's so tired and jaded all the time.
Sabine as we know her from previous shows is highly competent at many things. But I think it's very plausible that she's depressed and bitter and making shitty choices because...her birth family is mostly dead along with most of her culture, her chosen family are mostly dead or missing or have big jobs in the new Republic power structure, and she somehow ended up getting tapped for training in a mystic art for which she, her teacher, and other relevant experts agree she has little aptitude, and then her teacher decided she wasn't worth training and skipped out? I wouldn't be in top form either! And the assurances of the aforementioned teacher about what was and wasn't the right thing to do wouldn't mean all that much to me compared to a chance to find my best friend.
In short, I was momentarily surprised Sabine bit what Baylan was dangling. And then I was like "WHY am I surprised though?" There's years of bad blood between these women.
posted by potrzebie at 5:32 PM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
Sabine as we know her from previous shows is highly competent at many things. But I think it's very plausible that she's depressed and bitter and making shitty choices because...her birth family is mostly dead along with most of her culture, her chosen family are mostly dead or missing or have big jobs in the new Republic power structure, and she somehow ended up getting tapped for training in a mystic art for which she, her teacher, and other relevant experts agree she has little aptitude, and then her teacher decided she wasn't worth training and skipped out? I wouldn't be in top form either! And the assurances of the aforementioned teacher about what was and wasn't the right thing to do wouldn't mean all that much to me compared to a chance to find my best friend.
In short, I was momentarily surprised Sabine bit what Baylan was dangling. And then I was like "WHY am I surprised though?" There's years of bad blood between these women.
posted by potrzebie at 5:32 PM on September 6, 2023 [7 favorites]
lots of great stuff here! but I will be a good Star Wars fan and log my hot take quibbles first.
Anakin was the worst youngface CGI that Star Wars has done. sorry friendo, put the mask back on.
I hope someday that Star Wars is self-aware enough to show Yoda teaching the Selectively Forget Your Telekinesis, You Must! seminar that is mandatory for freshwans. Baylin denies being a Jedi but has for whatever reason preserved this weird tenet of their discipline.
posted by Sauce Trough at 5:48 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Anakin was the worst youngface CGI that Star Wars has done. sorry friendo, put the mask back on.
I hope someday that Star Wars is self-aware enough to show Yoda teaching the Selectively Forget Your Telekinesis, You Must! seminar that is mandatory for freshwans. Baylin denies being a Jedi but has for whatever reason preserved this weird tenet of their discipline.
posted by Sauce Trough at 5:48 PM on September 6, 2023 [1 favorite]
Shin has a world-class Kubrick stare. That look is such a cliche now that it's almost funny to see. but she sells it. Yup, I am Team Shin.
posted by Sauce Trough at 6:11 PM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
But I think it's very plausible that she's (Sabine's) depressed and bitter and making shitty choices because...A little Natalie from Yellowjackets vibe here? The kid from Circumstances, forced to be capable and self-reliant as a youth, drafted into service to her community and subsequently wrecked as an adult.
I'm also finding myself increasingly frustrated at the reiteration of the "Ahsoka walks away from everything" theme. Especially the implication that, if she stuck around, she could've saved Anakin.yeah, but here it's the bad guy saying it. and Ahsoka just blows right past it and punches him in his little man feelings by accusing him of being obscure. It felt like standard Jedi foreplay to me.
posted by Sauce Trough at 6:11 PM on September 6, 2023 [5 favorites]
I'm forming a theory I call "Dave Filoni's bullshit" which is based around his extended use of cutesy fan service, child endangerment as a plot device and weak-sauce dialog. I genuinely am not normally a hater of anyone's writing style (except James Fennimore Cooper and Samuel Richardson. They can fuck right off) but I just can't handle the dumb dialog and pass the stupid stick antics anymore.
I LIKED the Lost finale! But this show. No. If I'm watching it, it's a hate watch. More Andor please.
posted by fiercekitten at 7:04 PM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I LIKED the Lost finale! But this show. No. If I'm watching it, it's a hate watch. More Andor please.
posted by fiercekitten at 7:04 PM on September 6, 2023 [2 favorites]
I loved the nothingburger of the Marrok reveal after all the speculation about who was behind the mask.
Is it Ezra? Starkiller? Luuke?
Nope, literally just a puff of green smoke. That was great!
posted by Jawn at 8:56 PM on September 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
Is it Ezra? Starkiller? Luuke?
Nope, literally just a puff of green smoke. That was great!
posted by Jawn at 8:56 PM on September 6, 2023 [10 favorites]
I don't understand complaints about dialog in Star Wars properties. Besides Andor and Rogue One, when has anything Star Wars had great dialog?
posted by kokaku at 9:37 PM on September 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 9:37 PM on September 6, 2023 [6 favorites]
Hera risks her career
I never really thought of it as a career. I wonder what the rebellion pays?
Also, what happened to Rebels Sabine the Anarcho-Mandalorian Grafitti artist whose solutions to most problems was to toss a bomb?
Also, it has been a while since Rebels ended but I thought at the end of that show, Ahsoka showed up and told Sabine: 'Get in loser, we're going to find Ezra and Thrawn'. Did I hallucinate that?
Also, where is Zeb? They showed Zeb for a few minutes in the Mandolorian but somehow he is no longer part of the Ghost crew?
posted by oldnumberseven at 12:07 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
I never really thought of it as a career. I wonder what the rebellion pays?
Also, what happened to Rebels Sabine the Anarcho-Mandalorian Grafitti artist whose solutions to most problems was to toss a bomb?
Also, it has been a while since Rebels ended but I thought at the end of that show, Ahsoka showed up and told Sabine: 'Get in loser, we're going to find Ezra and Thrawn'. Did I hallucinate that?
Also, where is Zeb? They showed Zeb for a few minutes in the Mandolorian but somehow he is no longer part of the Ghost crew?
posted by oldnumberseven at 12:07 AM on September 7, 2023 [2 favorites]
When Ahsoka said “If we can’t get to Ezra, it is better to make sure no one gets there.” I really wanted Sabine to say “Better than Ezra?”
posted by snofoam at 3:18 AM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by snofoam at 3:18 AM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I keep making that joke and Mrs. CoB keeps not laughing!
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 4:14 AM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 4:14 AM on September 7, 2023 [7 favorites]
I also would like to see Zeb, but maybe he's just too expensive for extended use? On the other hand I think Huyang is mostly CGI, but they don't have to give him facial expressions or biomechanically correct movement.
posted by orrnyereg at 5:23 AM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
posted by orrnyereg at 5:23 AM on September 7, 2023 [4 favorites]
Also, what happened to Rebels Sabine the Anarcho-Mandalorian Grafitti artist whose solutions to most problems was to toss a bomb?
Also, it has been a while since Rebels ended but I thought at the end of that show, Ahsoka showed up and told Sabine: 'Get in loser, we're going to find Ezra and Thrawn'. Did I hallucinate that?
When it comes to Sabine (and well, Ahsoka), he's definitely leaned into the idea of teasing out the things that changed them between the end of Rebels and the start of this show. And this episode is where we got a big drop of what has happened to change Sabine from the woman at the end of last show to the one we see now. It's loss and to a degree, abandonment.
The timeline on when Ahsoka shows up on Lothal and agrees to take Sabine is infuriatingly vague, but what we do know is that it began before the Purge of Mandalore and the present. That's helpful, no? But in that purge that wiped out a great majority of the Mandalorian people, Sabine's family were killed - a family that she was really only recently able to become close to again - at least with regard to her mother. That followed the dissolution of her found family, Ezra vanishing in the sky with Thrawn and a flock of purgills, Kanan dying only a short time before, and then Hera and Zeb take off to fight in the greater battle against the Empire. Presumably, Hera is essentially gone for a couple years at least along with Zeb. [See references in the Star Wars comics and the excellent trilogy, Alphabet Squadron by Alexander Freed]
So in all that, somewhere, Sabine latches onto Ahsoka who returns from her mystical journey that Ezra set her on, and here's where the whole Purge of Mandalore throws things off timing wise, we suppose it had to happen several years after Rebels ended, perhaps as some off shoot of Operation Cinder. Operation Cinder was a contingency plan by Palpatine, that should he die, specific planets were to be rendered inhospitable by the Imperial Fleet (it was stopped before most harm could occur...but some places got it bad). That plan happened after the Battle of Endor, so approximately threeish years after the end of Rebels? But not to digress, undoubtedly, Sabine probably wanted to rush to Mandalore to help, Ahsoka did the typical Jedi can't have attachments or we have to do something more important thing, and that cultivated the eventual split with Ahsoka throwing her hands up in the air and walking off.
Thus, we have Sabine returning to the one place that can feel like home, which isn't decimated by Imperial ordinance, and kind of existing. Periodically getting to interact with Hera, Jacen, and maybe Zeb (???), but Ezra's fate, the one family member that was loss, BUT could still be found is her focus. She lives in his old home, surrounded by the ghosts of their happier times as a rebel family. This is why Sabine is who she is now, and it's why she ultimately surrendered the map to Baylan.
On rewatch, I realized I totally missed Baylan reading her freakin' mind to pick up on everything going on inside her. The guy is scary good at what he does. It also dawned on me that Baylan shared he had lost his faith in the Jedi Order, BUT, then he talks about building something from the ashes, and his padawan, Shin, even wears a padawan braid. Baylan wants to re-establish the Jedi Order but fixing what he thought had failed within it and he sees Thrawn as the power to get him to the point where he can do so.
posted by Atreides at 6:47 AM on September 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
Also, it has been a while since Rebels ended but I thought at the end of that show, Ahsoka showed up and told Sabine: 'Get in loser, we're going to find Ezra and Thrawn'. Did I hallucinate that?
When it comes to Sabine (and well, Ahsoka), he's definitely leaned into the idea of teasing out the things that changed them between the end of Rebels and the start of this show. And this episode is where we got a big drop of what has happened to change Sabine from the woman at the end of last show to the one we see now. It's loss and to a degree, abandonment.
The timeline on when Ahsoka shows up on Lothal and agrees to take Sabine is infuriatingly vague, but what we do know is that it began before the Purge of Mandalore and the present. That's helpful, no? But in that purge that wiped out a great majority of the Mandalorian people, Sabine's family were killed - a family that she was really only recently able to become close to again - at least with regard to her mother. That followed the dissolution of her found family, Ezra vanishing in the sky with Thrawn and a flock of purgills, Kanan dying only a short time before, and then Hera and Zeb take off to fight in the greater battle against the Empire. Presumably, Hera is essentially gone for a couple years at least along with Zeb. [See references in the Star Wars comics and the excellent trilogy, Alphabet Squadron by Alexander Freed]
So in all that, somewhere, Sabine latches onto Ahsoka who returns from her mystical journey that Ezra set her on, and here's where the whole Purge of Mandalore throws things off timing wise, we suppose it had to happen several years after Rebels ended, perhaps as some off shoot of Operation Cinder. Operation Cinder was a contingency plan by Palpatine, that should he die, specific planets were to be rendered inhospitable by the Imperial Fleet (it was stopped before most harm could occur...but some places got it bad). That plan happened after the Battle of Endor, so approximately threeish years after the end of Rebels? But not to digress, undoubtedly, Sabine probably wanted to rush to Mandalore to help, Ahsoka did the typical Jedi can't have attachments or we have to do something more important thing, and that cultivated the eventual split with Ahsoka throwing her hands up in the air and walking off.
Thus, we have Sabine returning to the one place that can feel like home, which isn't decimated by Imperial ordinance, and kind of existing. Periodically getting to interact with Hera, Jacen, and maybe Zeb (???), but Ezra's fate, the one family member that was loss, BUT could still be found is her focus. She lives in his old home, surrounded by the ghosts of their happier times as a rebel family. This is why Sabine is who she is now, and it's why she ultimately surrendered the map to Baylan.
On rewatch, I realized I totally missed Baylan reading her freakin' mind to pick up on everything going on inside her. The guy is scary good at what he does. It also dawned on me that Baylan shared he had lost his faith in the Jedi Order, BUT, then he talks about building something from the ashes, and his padawan, Shin, even wears a padawan braid. Baylan wants to re-establish the Jedi Order but fixing what he thought had failed within it and he sees Thrawn as the power to get him to the point where he can do so.
posted by Atreides at 6:47 AM on September 7, 2023 [11 favorites]
I guess what I'm wondering now is what a red lightsaber even means on this show.
posted by potrzebie at 7:11 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by potrzebie at 7:11 AM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
cherry flavored
posted by kokaku at 11:23 AM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by kokaku at 11:23 AM on September 7, 2023 [6 favorites]
I guess what I'm wondering now is what a red lightsaber even means on this show.
Apparently Balen and Babybad's sabers are actually orange? Not red? Because........ reasons?!
posted by coriolisdave at 3:34 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Apparently Balen and Babybad's sabers are actually orange? Not red? Because........ reasons?!
posted by coriolisdave at 3:34 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
Ugh, I'm Very Bad at Colors and to me their blades look red af. But OK - I'll let that slide because my color vision is silly - so are we to assume that Baylan and Shin are carrying lightsabers that just happen to be coincidentally pretty similar in color to the ones dark side adepts create by "bleeding" kyber crystals? Or is that not an actual canon explanation of why all the baddies carry sabers with red blades, for the purposes of this show? Is it possible to bleed a kyber crystal, like, a little bit? I know it's a reversible process, but I assumed it was discrete - either it's original flavor, or "corrupted", or "healed" - is there a middle ground??
I'm genuinely embarrassed to be getting hot under the collar about this. This wouldn't be the first time Filoni has stomped all over what I understood to be the canon explanation of a thing and it probably won't be the last. I guess willingness to corrupt a kyber crystal in this way indicates a certain moral valence and I'm annoyed the show is being coy about whether that's a thing these characters did or not. Like, cute trick, but I hate it when there's a thing that means something in a fictional world and someone decides arbitrarily to make it not mean that for "mess with the audience" reasons.
It's so embarrassing to care this much about something this dumb!!!
posted by potrzebie at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I'm genuinely embarrassed to be getting hot under the collar about this. This wouldn't be the first time Filoni has stomped all over what I understood to be the canon explanation of a thing and it probably won't be the last. I guess willingness to corrupt a kyber crystal in this way indicates a certain moral valence and I'm annoyed the show is being coy about whether that's a thing these characters did or not. Like, cute trick, but I hate it when there's a thing that means something in a fictional world and someone decides arbitrarily to make it not mean that for "mess with the audience" reasons.
It's so embarrassing to care this much about something this dumb!!!
posted by potrzebie at 5:45 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Oh I'm with you, I can't actually tell the difference between "red" and "orange" sabers in this show - they look the same to me too.
I think that this is a mostly-evil bleeding, reflective of their not-actually-Sithness. Or something.
posted by coriolisdave at 6:13 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I think that this is a mostly-evil bleeding, reflective of their not-actually-Sithness. Or something.
posted by coriolisdave at 6:13 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
I liked the droid-to-droid combat
At that moment, what came to mind was red lips in the blackness singing, “See androids fighting…” No sign of Brad and Janet, tho.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:24 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
At that moment, what came to mind was red lips in the blackness singing, “See androids fighting…” No sign of Brad and Janet, tho.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:24 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
On the other hand I think Huyang is mostly CGI, but they don't have to give him facial expressions or biomechanically correct movement.
It’s funny that droids often have biological quirks: early on, when Huyang is scanning the forest for enemies, hiseyes photoreceptors narrow. It makes approximately zero sense for a mechanical being, but it conveys the emotional tenor of the moment.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:34 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
It’s funny that droids often have biological quirks: early on, when Huyang is scanning the forest for enemies, his
posted by ricochet biscuit at 6:34 PM on September 7, 2023 [3 favorites]
It’s funny that droids often have biological quirks: early on, when Huyang is scanning the forest for enemies, his eyes photoreceptors narrow. It makes approximately zero sense for a mechanical being, but it conveys the emotional tenor of the moment.
I couldn't help but wonder why a droid wouldn't by default have lidar (or similar) so they couldn't be snuck up upon, but what the hell would I know?
posted by coriolisdave at 6:53 PM on September 7, 2023
I couldn't help but wonder why a droid wouldn't by default have lidar (or similar) so they couldn't be snuck up upon, but what the hell would I know?
posted by coriolisdave at 6:53 PM on September 7, 2023
Many thanks Atreides for the Sabine explanation!
posted by oldnumberseven at 11:26 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by oldnumberseven at 11:26 PM on September 7, 2023 [1 favorite]
Here's more than you wanted to know about orange lightsabers:
In Legends, orange lightsabers were most often wielded by Force-sensitives who identified as Gray Jedi. Rather than the Knights of the traditional Jedi Order, Gray Jedi had a foot in both sides of the Force and hadn't committed fully to either the light or the dark. As such, their orange lightsaber blades were as rare as the Gray Jedi themselves, representing their middle-ground approach to understanding and wielding the Force, existing between the red of the Sith and the yellow often used by the guards and scholars at the Jedi Temple...posted by TheophileEscargot at 2:23 AM on September 8, 2023 [4 favorites]
Looking at Baylan Skoll and Shin Hati in the new Ahsoka trailer, it's currently unknown why they're both wielding orange lightsabers. While it's possible that they could be Gray Jedi during the New Republic era, it was confirmed at Star Wars Celebration 2023 that they'll be in league with Morgan Elsbeth, who herself serves Grand Admiral Thrawn, the galaxy's Heir to the Empire. As such, it's more likely that the orange tint of their blades is meant to distinguish them from the Sith, perhaps indicating something unorthodox in the construction of their lightsabers or their connection to the Force as a brand-new breed of dark side wielders entirely.
...However, showrunner Dave Filoni essentially has a clean slate to give orange kyber crystals whatever kind of significance he wants in the current canon. While it could be compelling, he doesn't necessarily have to mimic what came before in Legends.
I couldn't help but wonder why a droid wouldn't by default have lidar (or similar) so they couldn't be snuck up upon, but what the hell would I know?
Then you wouldn't have droids built for a thousand different purposes! Huyang is supposed to be extremely old, too. Perhaps they didn't have multi-functionality in mind originally when whomever built him. I heard from a podcast that a now Legends book (i.e., something no longer necessarily canon) that Huyang appeared out of nowhere at the Jedi Temple in a big blue box (this being written after David Tenant first voiced the character for The Clone Wars.
...However, showrunner Dave Filoni essentially has a clean slate to give orange kyber crystals whatever kind of significance he wants in the current canon. While it could be compelling, he doesn't necessarily have to mimic what came before in Legends.
As a note, there have never been actual "gray Jedi," it's more of a game and fan concept than anything else. There have been stories about Jedi who may have touched upon using the Dark Side, but never officially referred to as gray Jedi. Fans have applied the label quite a bit at times, and it's also been a major debate topic between fans, too. (the article doesn't go into that)
One thing, surprisingly the linked Screenrant article didn't mention, was that in Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire, there was a major character known as Jorus C'boath. C'boath was a Jedi Master who spear headed a mission called "Outbound Flight," which was an attempt to send Jedi and others to a distant galaxy. The details there are not important, but in Legends, Palpatine ends up undermining it and the mission is a complete failure. C'boath is killed, BUT he is cloned and becomes an integral part of Thrawn's original mission. He's known as Joruus C'boath, was an insane dark side user, and he used an orange lightsaber. (This connection, as I learned it, was brought up by Jordan Maison of Cinelinx)
So the important thing to know is that 1) Filoni has drawn upon Thrawn's character, but has also rewritten Thrawn's background in terms of his role and presence in the Star Wars timeline as we know it from Rebels. So just because something is in the original Heir to the Empire doesn't mean it'll be exactly the same. 2) There is no evidence at the moment that Baylan or Shin use the dark side. No one has ever said anything at all about this in the show - we just know they don't identify as Jedi. 3) Jordan (from above) also theorized that perhaps Baylan was part of the Outbound Flight project, given that his age and Clone Wars era knowledge check out. The disaster of that project could have played a role in Baylan's own loss of faith.
That's what we know and can theorize really at the moment. I do think the orange lightsabers are supposed to indicate the users are down a path that could lead to the dark side, a la the red lightsaber. That they are operating under different principles than your typical Jedi (such as, you know, serving as mercenaries). I think this doesn't contradict any prior lightsaber lore, at least as that's been established for the last decade or so.
posted by Atreides at 7:12 AM on September 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
Then you wouldn't have droids built for a thousand different purposes! Huyang is supposed to be extremely old, too. Perhaps they didn't have multi-functionality in mind originally when whomever built him. I heard from a podcast that a now Legends book (i.e., something no longer necessarily canon) that Huyang appeared out of nowhere at the Jedi Temple in a big blue box (this being written after David Tenant first voiced the character for The Clone Wars.
...However, showrunner Dave Filoni essentially has a clean slate to give orange kyber crystals whatever kind of significance he wants in the current canon. While it could be compelling, he doesn't necessarily have to mimic what came before in Legends.
As a note, there have never been actual "gray Jedi," it's more of a game and fan concept than anything else. There have been stories about Jedi who may have touched upon using the Dark Side, but never officially referred to as gray Jedi. Fans have applied the label quite a bit at times, and it's also been a major debate topic between fans, too. (the article doesn't go into that)
One thing, surprisingly the linked Screenrant article didn't mention, was that in Timothy Zahn's Heir to the Empire, there was a major character known as Jorus C'boath. C'boath was a Jedi Master who spear headed a mission called "Outbound Flight," which was an attempt to send Jedi and others to a distant galaxy. The details there are not important, but in Legends, Palpatine ends up undermining it and the mission is a complete failure. C'boath is killed, BUT he is cloned and becomes an integral part of Thrawn's original mission. He's known as Joruus C'boath, was an insane dark side user, and he used an orange lightsaber. (This connection, as I learned it, was brought up by Jordan Maison of Cinelinx)
So the important thing to know is that 1) Filoni has drawn upon Thrawn's character, but has also rewritten Thrawn's background in terms of his role and presence in the Star Wars timeline as we know it from Rebels. So just because something is in the original Heir to the Empire doesn't mean it'll be exactly the same. 2) There is no evidence at the moment that Baylan or Shin use the dark side. No one has ever said anything at all about this in the show - we just know they don't identify as Jedi. 3) Jordan (from above) also theorized that perhaps Baylan was part of the Outbound Flight project, given that his age and Clone Wars era knowledge check out. The disaster of that project could have played a role in Baylan's own loss of faith.
That's what we know and can theorize really at the moment. I do think the orange lightsabers are supposed to indicate the users are down a path that could lead to the dark side, a la the red lightsaber. That they are operating under different principles than your typical Jedi (such as, you know, serving as mercenaries). I think this doesn't contradict any prior lightsaber lore, at least as that's been established for the last decade or so.
posted by Atreides at 7:12 AM on September 8, 2023 [6 favorites]
When do we get to the episodes where The Mandalorian and Grogu show up and it turns into a mini-season of their show? This show, for me, is landing somewhere between The Book of Boba Fett bad and Obi-Wan Kenobi meh.
posted by jimw at 8:54 AM on September 8, 2023
posted by jimw at 8:54 AM on September 8, 2023
In short, I was momentarily surprised Sabine bit what Baylan was dangling. And then I was like "WHY am I surprised though?" There's years of bad blood between these women.
This is what's missing for me, as a newbie. It's like "hey, Sabine, you just got the 'Jedi make hard choices' line from both your mentor and extremely recently heard it in Ezra's last message, WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO HERE?" and all of the vague intimations of the back story so far don't feel strong enough to stand up to this choice and have Sabine remain a sympathetic character, as far as I'm concerned. So it's a good thing I like Team Baddie.
posted by EvaDestruction at 10:40 AM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
This is what's missing for me, as a newbie. It's like "hey, Sabine, you just got the 'Jedi make hard choices' line from both your mentor and extremely recently heard it in Ezra's last message, WHAT DO YOU THINK YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO DO HERE?" and all of the vague intimations of the back story so far don't feel strong enough to stand up to this choice and have Sabine remain a sympathetic character, as far as I'm concerned. So it's a good thing I like Team Baddie.
posted by EvaDestruction at 10:40 AM on September 8, 2023 [2 favorites]
Somehow this is bringing out the Snarky Guy in me. Not in too mean a way I hope, but...
Sabine: I got this.
Me: Yeah, Rule One of genre fiction is that when someone says "I got this", they don't have this.
(It's a strange fact that every rule of genre fiction is Rule One. It's a rule of genre fiction. Rule One, strangely enough.)
Later:
Me: See - I told you she didn't have this.
-----
X-fighter pilot: They're not sending out fighters...
Me: Mm. And what does that suggest to you, are you not in the least suspic... oh, never mind, you'll be dead in a minute.
posted by Grangousier at 1:27 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sabine: I got this.
Me: Yeah, Rule One of genre fiction is that when someone says "I got this", they don't have this.
(It's a strange fact that every rule of genre fiction is Rule One. It's a rule of genre fiction. Rule One, strangely enough.)
Later:
Me: See - I told you she didn't have this.
-----
X-fighter pilot: They're not sending out fighters...
Me: Mm. And what does that suggest to you, are you not in the least suspic... oh, never mind, you'll be dead in a minute.
posted by Grangousier at 1:27 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Me: See - I told you she didn't have this.
Sabine won that fight, no? She got Shin so flustered she had to use her ninja smoke bombs to escape.
Me: Mm. And what does that suggest to you, are you not in the least suspic... oh, never mind, you'll be dead in a minute.
I really wanted to see the pilots eject - in Legends canon X-Wings definitely had ejector seats but I don't know if we've ever seen one on screen. Maybe in Rebels or Clone Wars?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:39 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Sabine won that fight, no? She got Shin so flustered she had to use her ninja smoke bombs to escape.
Me: Mm. And what does that suggest to you, are you not in the least suspic... oh, never mind, you'll be dead in a minute.
I really wanted to see the pilots eject - in Legends canon X-Wings definitely had ejector seats but I don't know if we've ever seen one on screen. Maybe in Rebels or Clone Wars?
posted by EndsOfInvention at 1:39 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
There is no evidence at the moment that Baylan or Shin use the dark side.
Shin was force choking Sabine at one point. I'd always assumed that was a pretty "dark side only" power, is that not the case?
posted by Jawn at 2:59 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Shin was force choking Sabine at one point. I'd always assumed that was a pretty "dark side only" power, is that not the case?
posted by Jawn at 2:59 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
That seems to be the general flavor of Force-choke, but Luke Force-choked a couple of pig-guards at Jabba's palace and he turned out OK. (To be clear, I believe this act and his black clothes were supposed to suggest that maybe Luke was teetering, but if so, at least the Dark Side didn't forever dominate his destiny.)
posted by The Tensor at 3:12 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by The Tensor at 3:12 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
at least the Dark Side didn't forever dominate his destiny
From a certain point of view it might be argued that it did - tapping the Dark Side allowed him to (physically) beat Vader, and his Dark Side impulse to attempt to murder* Ben led to the destruction of his New Jedi Temple, the rise of the First Order, and his ultimate demise.
There is no evidence at the moment that Baylan or Shin use the dark side.
Force-choking aside, straight-up murdering an entire cruiser full of people with your Force weapon and/or powers is pretty dark
*Dude was standing over the kid with a lethal weapon, even if he changed his mind it's gotta be something close to attempted murder
posted by coriolisdave at 10:50 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
From a certain point of view it might be argued that it did - tapping the Dark Side allowed him to (physically) beat Vader, and his Dark Side impulse to attempt to murder* Ben led to the destruction of his New Jedi Temple, the rise of the First Order, and his ultimate demise.
There is no evidence at the moment that Baylan or Shin use the dark side.
Force-choking aside, straight-up murdering an entire cruiser full of people with your Force weapon and/or powers is pretty dark
*Dude was standing over the kid with a lethal weapon, even if he changed his mind it's gotta be something close to attempted murder
posted by coriolisdave at 10:50 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
coriolisdave, that deployment of "from a certain point of view"...chef kiss...magnifique
posted by potrzebie at 11:08 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by potrzebie at 11:08 PM on September 8, 2023 [1 favorite]
Jordan (from above) also theorized that perhaps Baylan was part of the Outbound Flight project, given that his age and Clone Wars era knowledge check out. The disaster of that project could have played a role in Baylan's own loss of faith.
That is truly an interesting bit of speculation, but sadly, I call no way. (A) That presumes he, what, left the galaxy on Outbound Flight, met Thrawn or something?, then found his own means to come back, but without Thrawn, and can't use that means to go BACK to Thrawn and bring HIM back?—which is a large part of why I was never quite sold that Merrok was Ezra—and even if it was something like that, (B) it doesn't feel like there are enough episodes left for an infodump of that *flipper wiggle* magnitude, especially from this show, with its comparatively slow pacing and limited dialogue.
And to go off on a tangent, that last bit is what has me worried about how this all resolves. I wouldn't be if we knew Ahsoka was multi-season. But it's like…the Doylist reason for Ahsoka, Ezra, and Thrawn to all be off doing their own thing is because somebody wanted to create these new high-capability characters but also had to explain why they made no appearance in Return of the Jedi (as the old EU also needed to do now and then, with e.g. Mara Jade and also Thrawn). But the Holmesian explanation needs to be good and solid and deep and natural-feeling and maybe even resonant to not feel cheap when viewed alongside the readily apparent Doylist reason, and I don't know how the rest of THIS brief show can pull that off. If that makes any sense. (Maybe I shouldn't post before coffee)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 4:39 AM on September 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
That is truly an interesting bit of speculation, but sadly, I call no way. (A) That presumes he, what, left the galaxy on Outbound Flight, met Thrawn or something?, then found his own means to come back, but without Thrawn, and can't use that means to go BACK to Thrawn and bring HIM back?—which is a large part of why I was never quite sold that Merrok was Ezra—and even if it was something like that, (B) it doesn't feel like there are enough episodes left for an infodump of that *flipper wiggle* magnitude, especially from this show, with its comparatively slow pacing and limited dialogue.
And to go off on a tangent, that last bit is what has me worried about how this all resolves. I wouldn't be if we knew Ahsoka was multi-season. But it's like…the Doylist reason for Ahsoka, Ezra, and Thrawn to all be off doing their own thing is because somebody wanted to create these new high-capability characters but also had to explain why they made no appearance in Return of the Jedi (as the old EU also needed to do now and then, with e.g. Mara Jade and also Thrawn). But the Holmesian explanation needs to be good and solid and deep and natural-feeling and maybe even resonant to not feel cheap when viewed alongside the readily apparent Doylist reason, and I don't know how the rest of THIS brief show can pull that off. If that makes any sense. (Maybe I shouldn't post before coffee)
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 4:39 AM on September 9, 2023 [4 favorites]
Yeah the more I think about it the more annoyed I am. Are TPTB really trying to make our heroes look like the Keystone Kops? Hera is a deeply underwhelming general and Sabine barely has the fighting ability of your average stormtrooper. Ahsoka isn’t covering herself in glory making rookie mistake after rookie mistake. Why would she bring along someone whom she clearly doesn’t like, doesn’t trust, and in whose abilities (or common sense) she has no faith? They should have just sent Huyang to handle the map and this would have been wrapped up in one episode.
However, despite the buffooneries of the protagonists, Ray Stevenson and Ivanna Sakhno, and some terrific-looking set pieces, make the show well worth watching. I wish we had more of a focus on them.
posted by orrnyereg at 6:56 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
However, despite the buffooneries of the protagonists, Ray Stevenson and Ivanna Sakhno, and some terrific-looking set pieces, make the show well worth watching. I wish we had more of a focus on them.
posted by orrnyereg at 6:56 PM on September 10, 2023 [2 favorites]
Historical weapons guy Matt Easton on Ahsoka's lightsaber half-swording technique and hilt design.
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:39 PM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
posted by TheophileEscargot at 10:39 PM on September 10, 2023 [3 favorites]
Shin was force choking Sabine at one point. I'd always assumed that was a pretty "dark side only" power, is that not the case?
It's something that can be motivated by the dark side, but doesn't necessarily come from the dark side. Unsurprisingly, Anakin force chokes someone during the Clone Wars when he's trying to find Ahsoka (I think? Maybe I have it in reverse). I have the expectation, given that Baylan has his own internal code, that had the New Republic ship not put up a fight, they would have been left alive. See also his promise to Sabine on her safety. This is where a potential point of conflict might exist with Shin. She seems to have a harder control on her emotions than her master.
posted by Atreides at 9:09 AM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
It's something that can be motivated by the dark side, but doesn't necessarily come from the dark side. Unsurprisingly, Anakin force chokes someone during the Clone Wars when he's trying to find Ahsoka (I think? Maybe I have it in reverse). I have the expectation, given that Baylan has his own internal code, that had the New Republic ship not put up a fight, they would have been left alive. See also his promise to Sabine on her safety. This is where a potential point of conflict might exist with Shin. She seems to have a harder control on her emotions than her master.
posted by Atreides at 9:09 AM on September 11, 2023 [1 favorite]
Ahsoka is just having a near death experience and will wake up after some mystic nonsense
Mortis gods....activate
posted by eustatic at 7:19 PM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
Mortis gods....activate
posted by eustatic at 7:19 PM on September 12, 2023 [4 favorites]
And coming back to the Hayden Christensen de-aging: yeesh. I mean, buddy is only 42, he'd make a perfectly fine middle aged Jedi, unless if he's completely changed and the CGI photoshoppery was the only solution to make him recognizable as Anakin. Yeah yeah, Anakin "died" when he became Vader and he was only in his early 20s, but still. It's not like there are any hard and fast goddamn rules to how old force ghosts appear to be, anyway. Or did they eventually replace Alec Guinness's force ghost with Ewan McGregor? I think I stopped paying attention to the edits after the special edition release.
posted by Kyol at 7:39 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by Kyol at 7:39 AM on September 13, 2023 [1 favorite]
I Stan for An...akin. I've never understood the hate. None of it resonated with me, for jake or haydin. I like any sort of retconning required to allow hayden and jake to perform in age-appropriate cameos in the modern star wars cinematic universe.
posted by rebent at 9:49 AM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
posted by rebent at 9:49 AM on September 16, 2023 [2 favorites]
I've always believed that Hayden Christensen and Natalie Portman are two great actors whose performances in the prequel trilogy was ruined by George Lucas.
posted by mikelieman at 9:53 AM on September 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
posted by mikelieman at 9:53 AM on September 16, 2023 [6 favorites]
So like 2-3 weeks ago I watched this kind of halfassedly, thought, "Huh, this was just all fight scenes, maybe I should rewatch it again because people seemed to think there was more plot than that." Here I am watching it again..I tried like three times... and um...still pretty much just fight scenes.
That said, the droid fight was damn cool.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:05 PM on September 21, 2023
That said, the droid fight was damn cool.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:05 PM on September 21, 2023
This episode felt to me like I was maybe missing something from not watching any of the animated series'. What was the limbo about? Other than absolutely boring fight scenes and some dialog. Is this a Star War thing I should know of?
posted by fridgebuzz at 12:32 PM on September 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
posted by fridgebuzz at 12:32 PM on September 23, 2023 [1 favorite]
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The hyperspace-ring jumping around the New Republic ships was a cool visual.
A couple of plot points that felt weak - Hera bringing her kid along and Sabine giving into Skoll.
Did not expect the surprise Anakin drop at the end. IIRC the last time Ahsoka met him was when she duelled Vader in Rebels.
posted by EndsOfInvention at 3:41 AM on September 6, 2023 [3 favorites]