Special Event: Presidential Debate #2: KamaDonic Boogaloo
September 10, 2024 1:59 PM - Subscribe

Former President Donald Trump and Vice President Kamala Harris are set to meet in Philadelphia [at 9 p.m. Eastern/6 p.m. Pacific] on Tuesday for their first — and perhaps only — debate before the November presidential election. [CBS] ... How to Watch Harris-Trump Presidential Debate Online Without Cable [THR]

The match-up will mark the first time Trump and Harris have met in person, and it comes at a crucial point in the election season. A new CBS News poll shows the Republican and Democratic presidential nominees locked in tight races in the battleground states of Pennsylvania, Michigan and Wisconsin with less than 60 days until voters choose who will be the next president.

Hosted by ABC News, the debate was initially supposed to be the second meeting of Trump and President Biden, but Mr. Biden's decision in late July to bow out of the race set off a frenetic series of events that culminated with Harris accepting the Democratic presidential nomination at the party's convention last month.

The weeks leading up to the debate have seen the two sides sparring over the rules. Harris' campaign pushed for microphones to be on throughout the debate, while Trump said his campaign agreed to the same rules that were in place for the first face-off. When he and Mr. Biden met, microphones were active only when a candidate was speaking.

Muted microphones ultimately prevailed after Harris' campaign accepted the rules set forth by ABC, though it warned she will be "fundamentally disadvantaged" by the format.

The debate is set to run 90 minutes and will be hosted by ABC's David Muir and Linsey Davis. Both candidates will stand behind podiums, and they cannot bring props or prewritten notes on stage, according to rules released by ABC. There will not be a public audience in the room. ABC is allowing other TV networks to simulcast the debate.
posted by chavenet (790 comments total) 25 users marked this as a favorite
 
‘It’s Not Pandering When You Tell the Truth’: Five Columnists Game Out the Debate (NYT gift, features Jamelle Bouie, Michelle Goldberg, and Tressie McMillan Cottom. David French and Ross Douthat also participate)
Douthat: It’s interesting, I assumed at one point that the assassination attempt would create off-the-charts enthusiasm for Trump. But that was so long ago, I guess, in the kind of political time we live in now.

McMillan Cottom: Trump’s inability to spin that assassination attempt into media domination is the best evidence yet that we could be at the beginning of the Trump bubble bursting.
....
Moderator: I’m curious why you think Trump has an edge right now, and do you think Harris is in trouble?

Goldberg: Because we live in a broken world.
posted by box at 2:33 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


Thanks for posting this, chavenet. I can't abide watching the taller of the participants, so I appreciate whatever commentary might be forthcoming from MeFites.
posted by kristi at 3:19 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


Watching the taller of the two is decidedly unhealthy for me, so you have my thanks, too, chavenet.
posted by mollweide at 3:33 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Does this really belong here on Fanfare? It seems like something for the main site.
posted by Ursula Hitler at 3:35 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Live updates: ABC, Al Jazeera, AP, Axios, CNN, CNBC, MSNBC, NBC, The New Yorker, NPR, USA Today, WaPo.
posted by box at 3:38 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


I've seen so many people say they didn't have the stomach to watch. I wholeheartedly agree. I have no desire to watch one actual person on stage and one complete asshole who isn't going to answer questions on stage. It's not a debate.
posted by cashman at 3:43 PM on September 10 [22 favorites]


Tough call as to whether it goes here or on the front page, but since chavenet was kind enough to take the initiative, seems like it works here as well as there.

I just added a post to the Blue inviting people over here. (Do we have enough snacks for everybody? I'll go get some more ice.) (Ope, never mind, Tim Walz brought plenty of ice.)
posted by kristi at 3:57 PM on September 10 [32 favorites]


Goes without saying that we're all counting on her, but good luck to VP Harris. If she is there to convince undecided voters, rather than preach to the choir, that will likely be a good outcome.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 3:58 PM on September 10 [12 favorites]


I wouldn’t normally watch this cringe fest but my daughter has to for school homework so I’m not gonna make her endure it alone.
posted by Liquidwolf at 4:03 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


Rules were agreed upon, debate prep has been happening ( which has interrupted this one guy staying at the same hotel as Vice President Kamala Harris) but the real question is what bingo card will you be using this evening?

Bingo cards:
Daily Beast?
Philadelphia Inquirer?
New York Post?
This guy from TikTok?
What about the gal from TT with six versions?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 4:04 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Nthing can’t watch it. 45 makes me so. freaking. angry.

But to anyone who can, as I mentioned in the free thread, BINGO.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 4:06 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


The Toronto Star ran an article today titled "The Five Things Kamala Harris Needs to Do During Her Debate with Donald Trump" or some such and my immediate reaction was "brother she can form a cogent sentence and demonstrate lucid thinking; I think she's good,hoss"
posted by Kitteh at 4:07 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


Oh, wow. A LOT OF BINGO.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 4:07 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


I managed to watch the last one, much to my regret, so I'm actually looking forward to this one. I'm hoping she takes him apart.
posted by Reverend John at 4:08 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


I just want to tell you good luck. We're all counting on you.
posted by Capt. Renault at 4:12 PM on September 10 [27 favorites]


I'm curious and sort of want to watch... but I'm afraid, at the same time.
Having a hard time getting into the "just enjoy the train wreck" mentality.

Why are the BINGO squares unevenly distributed?
posted by stormyteal at 4:14 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


National Debate Watch Party with Gov. Tim Walz

Before I take the stage tonight, join supporters nationwide for a virtual watch party with Governor Tim Walz.
posted by Rhaomi at 4:15 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


Bascially this debate is going to be mediocre insult comic versus highly prepared prosecutor.
posted by Reverend John at 4:16 PM on September 10 [12 favorites]


I'll just be happy if we can put to rest, finally, the notion that Harris was somehow "completely wrecked" in a previous debate with Tulsi Gabbard and now Gabbard's been prepping Trump to tear it up once more.

It's a very obnoxious right-wing talking point, along with the bit that Harris is a drunk and abuses pills (?!?!). I truly don't know where these ideas come from, but Republicans are famously happy to create stories out of thin air. For tonight, I hope people will watch a cogent and powerful debate performance and get it out of their heads.
posted by knotty knots at 4:19 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


For tonight, I hope people will watch a cogent and powerful debate performance and get it out of their heads.

That's optimistic. Trump could soil himself on stage and he would still declare victory, and so would his cult.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 4:21 PM on September 10 [18 favorites]


Why are the BINGO squares unevenly distributed

Which card? As I pointed out to kiddo, the official* Harris card basically lays out her talking point for the debate.

*official, as it was created and published by the Harris campaign.

(Yinz, I know it is not a Metafilter feeling, but I was 100% behind Clinton in 2016 and I have a lot of feelings about how that turned out, especially as a woman working in tech. I’m trying really hard to maintain my sense of humor and be positive, but that video from this weekend with Harris in Penzeys and the general reporting of the campaign have bought a whole lot that i have been repressing to the surface).

And Penzeys spices are really great. Seriously.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 4:22 PM on September 10 [25 favorites]


I cannot watch this as it would be actively harmful to my health. Thank you to all of you brave souls.
posted by Mizu at 4:22 PM on September 10 [17 favorites]


Felon vs. Attorney General. Let's be clear about this.
Thanks, chavenet. I will catch up with the thread after a long, quiet evening of folding laundry and reading a book.
Good luck, everyone.
posted by TrishaU at 4:24 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]




Yeah, I couldn't be able to listen to TFG for that long. Christ, I can barely tolerate Colbert's impressions.

For those about to watch, we salute you...

Let's Fucking Go Harris! Rip him to pieces.
posted by Windopaene at 4:28 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


I fully agree with people not watching it. I'm watching it just because, to paraphrase The Wire, I don't like when I get told something is one way, but it's the other way. It's really just a combined press conference of sorts, because there will be no actual shared debate of policy or shared debate of values or shared debate of anything. I'm sure the moderators will let me down and I'm sure we all know the orange jackass is going to just, as someone just noted, make something up out of thin air, and the media will breathlessly report it, in all likelihood. We're in for dogwhistles and other underhanded bs from this idiot.
posted by cashman at 4:29 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


I'd love to, but it starts late and I have work in the morning. It's also not going to change my mind. But to everyone who does, I look forward to reading commentary after the fact, and watching it maybe on the weekend.

I just want to tell you good luck, we're all counting on you. /airplane
posted by mrgoat at 4:33 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


I guess I picked a bad day to give up sniffing glue.
posted by MtDewd at 4:35 PM on September 10 [32 favorites]


I'm happy to read reactions and commentary by braver mefites than I. Really it's just that I have no desire to hear Trump's dumbass word-salad.

As in all presidential debates these last few cycles, I remain hopeful that it devolves into a punching match, in which case I've got $20 on Harris, she's a scrapper.
posted by VTX at 4:39 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Well, I'm watching just to see if we get any "Mr. Trump, I'M SPEAKING" smackdowns.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:43 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


I would LOVE another “Will you shut up man” moment. The tea towel I purchased to commemorate that moment is worn, but he said the thing that needed to be said.
posted by theBigRedKittyPurrs at 4:44 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


I wrote this elsewhere too, but here's a reminder that tomorrow's headlines will be that Harris was not prepared and overprepared, too passive and too aggressive, too detailed and not detailed enough, too mean and shrill, and of course a bunch of gendered and plausibly denialable racist insults that are entirely predictable. Meanwhile, Trump could soil his pants and the media will describe how he's graciously creating fertilizer for struggling farmers.

So tonight let's enjoy watching a former prosecutor dismantling a current felon and then tomorrow not let the media gobshite's gaslight us into thinking anything other than that happened.
posted by Joey Michaels at 4:47 PM on September 10 [72 favorites]


^^^^^^^^^ this
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 4:48 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


I skipped the last one because I did not want to be embarrassed for Biden. I'm watching this one because I want to see Kamala kill it.
posted by Glinn at 4:52 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


I'll be watching it I think, but am dreading the inevitable right-wing framing of all the "questions" that will be posed to the candidates.
posted by The Outsider at 4:54 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


I hope she has a vorpal quip at the ready for when he refers to her as nasty.
posted by Catblack at 4:54 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Since we're in fanfare can we follow fanfare norms and skip the "didn't watch / won't watch" comments?
posted by paper chromatographologist at 4:56 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


"I am not a felon, and have not been found liable for sexual assault..."
posted by Windopaene at 4:57 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


i am watching in hopes that Kamala will use her skills in handling a sociopath/narcissist, because that might lead to some uncharted territory. That being said, it won’t matter to the MAGA crowd one bit, but i would like to see it happen.
posted by tarantula at 5:02 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


So, I don't get a bingo card or prizes since I'm not even watching, but my personal hope is that Harris emphasizes his bankruptcies (plural) and his failed businesses.

(And may I just say what a wonderful thing it is to be able to participate in a watch party with a community of friends and not even have to watch? Thank you all for this.)

(on preview: sorry, paper chromatographologist, I'll stop.)
posted by kristi at 5:02 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


i haven’t missed a presidential debate since clinton/bush/perot when i was 8 so for some reason i’m continuing to torture myself with this tonight. harris better pull this off!!!!
posted by dis_integration at 5:18 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]




can we follow fanfare norms and skip the "didn't watch / won't watch" comments?

kristi said over on the Blue that it's okay to come over here and say thanks for those who are watching so that we don't all have to watch. So thanks folks, I'll check in and catch up with this tomorrow.
posted by jessamyn at 5:26 PM on September 10 [18 favorites]


Kamala Bomaye!
posted by kirkaracha at 5:31 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


Walz livestream starting!
posted by rikschell at 5:32 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Finally got my official bumper stickers in the mail today too!
posted by rikschell at 5:33 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Don't forget the electoral-vote.com bingo cards, too. Complete with instructions.
posted by gingerbeer at 5:36 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Oh so if kristi said it was ok to put pineapple, pepperoni, and banana peppers, would that be ok?!
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:42 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Sub the banana peppers for jalapeños, ideally pickled.
posted by box at 5:43 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


I can totally see Harris going for that while Wallz would like “just cheese please”
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 5:46 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Not a fan of how ABC is doing the pre-debate coverage. The tone is more like this is a sporting event and not for President of the US with an absolute psycho narcissist running.
posted by glaucon at 5:47 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


that's how the networks always treat it. that's why I'm watching the Harris YouTube feed
posted by rikschell at 5:49 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Plenty of "this is the last chance for Harris to make a good first impression" but no mention of the other candidate's criminality, senility, serial antipathy towards the truth. Classic media "impartiality."
posted by The Outsider at 5:50 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


Red five standing by.
posted by vrakatar at 5:51 PM on September 10 [18 favorites]


I just want to tell you good luck. We're all counting on you.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:53 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


3 million donors, 500,000 volunteers. The campaign is keeping up the underdog energy, but the momentum is clear.
posted by rikschell at 5:54 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Following the Walz “watch party” stream on YouTube. The overall vibe is “your high school’s TV station or assembly planning committee,” and it’s kind of warming my cynical middle-aged heart.
posted by armeowda at 5:54 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Those other streams sound great but I guess I prefer torturing myself with the awful national media takes
posted by glaucon at 5:55 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


I'm watching the watch party stream on twitch. I do like seeing the younger people be excited even if it can be a bit public access show at points.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 5:57 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


I'm looking at a silent C-SPAN page that I assume will do something when the debate starts. Or maybe it won't and I'll have to remember to care. Recommended.
posted by McBearclaw at 5:59 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


ABC commentators said this is the most consequential debate we’ll ever see, and it may be the last. They also speculated about whether there would be a handshake.
posted by box at 6:00 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


The polls in NC have been tied, which is amazing! NC hasn't felt competitive since Obama's first election.
posted by rikschell at 6:01 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


Thanks all for the filter here
posted by JoeXIII007 at 6:02 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Hello fellow masochists. I’m here and on the Crooked Media subscriber Discord. Between the two of y’all I’m expecting some good snark.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:02 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Of all the nights to run out of thorazine...
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:03 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


"Trump’s discipline, Harris’s ability to connect put to test" is the WaPo debate page headline, jfc
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:03 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


First question to Harris from ABC: Let's start with literally a Trump talking point
posted by The Outsider at 6:03 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


So the Walz watch party still showing Convention flashbacks is them trying to vamp for time, yeah?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:03 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


She sounds nervous
posted by glaucon at 6:04 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


My heart palpitations have begun
posted by sucre at 6:04 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


She looks nervous. Sigh.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:04 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


please put your hands down, ma'am
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:05 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


She’s nervous but she will warm up. However she didn’t directly answer the question.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:05 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


should have talked about how inflation is down.
posted by vrakatar at 6:06 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


I think that note-taking I am seeing will lead somewhere.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:07 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


The answer to "are Americans better off than four years ago" should have been "yes."
posted by heteronym at 6:08 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


I have had an ass garbage last 5 days but now I'm freshly showered, tucked into bed with a cup of nice bourbon, and I got the debate up on my TV. Let's fucking goooooo
posted by phunniemee at 6:08 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


She's not going to tell people inflation is down when people FEEL like it isn't. She's being smart.
posted by rikschell at 6:09 PM on September 10 [17 favorites]


He just tried to show that he knows what “asylum” means in this context, and he just proved he absolutely doesn’t.
posted by armeowda at 6:09 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


I think that note-taking I am seeing will lead somewhere.

They pointed a camera at Trump's notes.
posted by phunniemee at 6:09 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


However she didn’t directly answer the question.

Kind of OutTrumping Trump there: Psych!
posted by y2karl at 6:09 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Also, dude looks like he was embalmed. A week ago.
posted by armeowda at 6:10 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


I so, so regret that medical issues prevent me from watching this in an altered state.
posted by TwoStride at 6:10 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


Ask him who won the 2020 election, stop talking in large scale
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:10 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


That bit about Goldman Sachs and The Wharton School saying his plan would be a disaster was gold
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:11 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


Run spot run?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:11 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


"good solid money for our compan--- our country"
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 6:11 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]



Also, dude looks like he was embalmed. A week ago.

Because I'm in bed on my bedroom TV I've got it in night light mode on the candle setting so everyone looks like jamon iberico.
posted by phunniemee at 6:12 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


Who had bacon in the bingo or is it a free space
posted by phunniemee at 6:13 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


He really doesn't understand what tariffs ARE, does he?
posted by gingerbeer at 6:13 PM on September 10 [22 favorites]


And THANK YOU to the moderator for pointing out who pays to offset the tarrifs.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:13 PM on September 10 [16 favorites]


Yes, talk about the tariffs donnie.
posted by vrakatar at 6:13 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


His nonsense stream is absolutely polished. It's unnerving.
posted by Philipschall at 6:14 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Does the average voter understand what tariffs are?
posted by lucidium at 6:14 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


well that mike muting lasted about 12 minutes
posted by rikschell at 6:14 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Granted I have not watched Trump give a ton of speeches, but he’s using a lot of big words I don’t think he uses. Maybe Tulsi. The problem is, I hope, he’s about to run out of stuff he remembers.
posted by Glinn at 6:15 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Eeeek
posted by PistachioRoux at 6:15 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Obsessed with immigration!
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:15 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


MARXIST BINGO
posted by vrakatar at 6:16 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


I hope she calls him on this insane post birth abortion thing
posted by phunniemee at 6:17 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


Post-birth abortion, check.
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 6:17 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


So, something I have heard is that you can tell a lot about the path of a debate based on visuals only. I REALLY want to know what read you can get from that look she was giving him when he was talking about her father being a Marxist.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:17 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


trump giving the most insane account of abortion laws that i’ve ever heard
posted by dis_integration at 6:18 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Trump’s not winning anyone with this abortion answer.
posted by box at 6:18 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


*cocks shotgun* Sorry, baby, it was tails.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 6:19 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Yeah, now he sounds as senile as Biden did in the first debate.
posted by vrakatar at 6:19 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


I hope she straight up says he's lying about "execution" and "post birth abortion". It's time. Call this lie.
posted by Reverend John at 6:19 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


LOLZ at that moderator comment
posted by sucre at 6:19 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


Yes yes have a uterus and be angry girl yes
posted by phunniemee at 6:20 PM on September 10 [19 favorites]


I hope she straight up says he's lying about "execution" and "post birth abortion".

One of the moderators did.
posted by mrgoat at 6:20 PM on September 10 [15 favorites]


That’s a strong fucking answer on women’s rights, Kamala!
posted by leotrotsky at 6:21 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


Trump is full of shit, but he is sounding coherent and confident, which is all that matters to a lot of people. I guess we'll see how long it last.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:21 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Pleased that the moderator even called it out.

There are, make no mistake, voters who believe this “executing babies” shtick. But he already had them in the base. Harris is winning over anyone who can get back in touch with the home planet.
posted by armeowda at 6:21 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


"There she goes again" ?? Come up with your own lines, dude.
posted by gingerbeer at 6:21 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Trump says ‘there she goes again,’ that’s got to be on someone’s bingo card.
posted by box at 6:22 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Yeah she sounded great and genuine on the abortion stuff .
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:22 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


JD? I don't talk to him.
posted by phunniemee at 6:23 PM on September 10 [26 favorites]


he probably watched Reagan (2024) last night
posted by dis_integration at 6:23 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


he is sounding coherent and confident

Confident, yes. Sic semper Dunning-Krugeris.

This is not our Earth definition of “coherent.”
posted by armeowda at 6:23 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


He’s running in circles.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:23 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


I am LIKING this moderator.

And I am also liking how Trump is running scared about abortion by babbling about student loans for some reason.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:24 PM on September 10 [18 favorites]


He just sounds like a cross section of every right wing talk radio host now.
posted by vrakatar at 6:24 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


The Crooked discord has slow mode set so you can only post every 15 minutes. Viva Fanfare and freedom!
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:24 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


He was keeping it together for a while, but the second abortion question has driven him to visibly unhinged rambling mode.
posted by nobody at 6:24 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


God I love Harris on abortion I have been waiting for this since the day I started my period, finally
posted by phunniemee at 6:25 PM on September 10 [26 favorites]


I just tuned in and the very first thing that happened was they asked a good question about abortion and Trump pivoted to student loans and maybe Biden was at the beach? LOL keep up the good work sir
posted by Emmy Rae at 6:25 PM on September 10 [15 favorites]


"I've been a leader on IVF" I guess if he says it 20 times it must be true?
posted by senor biggles at 6:26 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


YES girl point the border control failure at the CONGRESS where it BELONGS
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:27 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


Oh yeah, get into Trump tanking the border deal!
posted by Reverend John at 6:27 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


"I've been a leader on IVF"

That's fertilization.
posted by pattern juggler at 6:27 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


“He’d prefer to run on a problem instead of rising a problem.”
posted by box at 6:28 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Exactly the right answer on immigration. He wants the problem, not a solution.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:28 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Woo..when Harris was reaching out to families who have suffered from fentanyl, Trump had a moment of absolute crazy eyes.
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 6:28 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


“I invite you to attend one of his rallies”>
posted by SillyShepherd at 6:28 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


She got him with the rally bait. Smart smart smart
posted by phunniemee at 6:29 PM on September 10 [41 favorites]


"exhaustion and boredom"
posted by gingerbeer at 6:29 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


Listening to this a-hole talk about IVF, which he knows nothing about, while currently going through IVF (in Mexico no less, because it’s cheaper than here), feels just… barf.
posted by sucre at 6:29 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


Lol, she knew he'd get all riled talking about his *tiny rallies*
posted by PistachioRoux at 6:29 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


Hot damn!
posted by vrakatar at 6:29 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Ha! He’s very upset about rally attendance besmirching.
posted by tllaya at 6:29 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


He’s such an idiot. He took the bait!!
posted by flamk at 6:29 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


He had to address the rallies first. Harris's expression was priceless.

Edit: She's actually pointing and laughing. LOL.
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 6:29 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


Oooooh someone got him going on rallies
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:29 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Straight up laughing at him. I am here for this
posted by kerf at 6:29 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


BAM!
posted by senor biggles at 6:30 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


TRUMP IS MELTING DOWN
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:30 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


OK she got him with the rallies... he's going off the deep end now
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:30 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


What is he talking about??
posted by antiquated at 6:30 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Eating dogs and cats!
posted by zardoz at 6:30 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


Oooh, she struck A NERVE with her rally comments
posted by soundguy99 at 6:30 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


Ooh she got him now. The biggest most incredible rallies.
posted by mygothlaundry at 6:30 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Maaaaaan, Donnie does not like being called on his bullshit. Harris is baiting him nicely.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:30 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


EATING CATS AND DOGS
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:30 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


THEY’RE EATING THE PETS
posted by chococat at 6:30 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


She needs to bottle up that bait and sell it!
posted by acidic at 6:30 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Poor Rover
posted by bz at 6:30 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Eating the pets!!! Pure gold!
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:30 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


This is the turn.
posted by box at 6:30 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


Hot damn.
posted by McBearclaw at 6:30 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


HAHAHA GOT HIM YESSSSSSSS TELL ME ABOUT PET EATINGSSSSS
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 6:30 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


He’s somewhere between shock jock and bully. No credible threats on missing pets being eaten for dinner
posted by childofTethys at 6:30 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


they are eating dogs!
posted by The_Auditor at 6:30 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


OMG HERE WE GOOO EATING THE PETS
posted by sucre at 6:30 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Arguing with the moderator... Good look
posted by PistachioRoux at 6:31 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Poke him in the rally!
posted by p3t3 at 6:31 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


God, seeing her laugh at him is so fucking cathartic.
posted by oc-to-po-des at 6:31 PM on September 10 [36 favorites]


“I’ve seen people on television!”

Her face when he goes about the pet eating is priceless.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:31 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


Starting a petition to request compassionate lobotomies for everyone on Trump's campaign
posted by phunniemee at 6:31 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Take him down.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:32 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Ohhh, she's going for him. Love to see it.
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 6:32 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Whew, he had me worried he wasn't going to embarass himself for a bit there .
posted by pattern juggler at 6:32 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


He saw it on the television.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 6:32 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


The moderators were actually calling him out?! Is this a TV show???

Moment of Emmy Rae truth, I only recognize the man moderator because he was on TV (on mute) in the bar I used to go to with my coworkers.
posted by Emmy Rae at 6:32 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


“I’m a different kind of person.”

No shit, looney tunes.
posted by leotrotsky at 6:32 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


Yay, blood libel against Hatian immigrants.
posted by charred husk at 6:32 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Wow! She hit a nerve with the rallies.
posted by Reverend John at 6:32 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


He is so Lovecraftian right down to the nacreous sheen. Also Philip K Dick's Faith of Our Fathers comes to mind once more. Also what a whiney lyin' sack of shit. And,even with eating the dogs already. Starting to feel better.
posted by y2karl at 6:33 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


"I fired a lot of people! They never fire anyone!"
posted by zardoz at 6:33 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


"They didn't fire anyone so vote for me"
posted by senor biggles at 6:33 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


He fired them!
posted by mygothlaundry at 6:33 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


The firing thing is hilarious.
posted by mygothlaundry at 6:34 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


He's not doing a good job. Let's fire him.
posted by otherchaz at 6:34 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Oh, there was a moment she looked at him with pity. I hope there are more moments like that. That’s going to catch the people who aren’t laughing at him. It’s another way to point out how weak and vulnerable someone is. (It’s ok to be weak and vulnerable—unless you’re trying to be elected president.)
posted by tllaya at 6:34 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


The moderator is practically coaching him ("sir, tell us HOW you would do this stuff") and he is still dropping the ball
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:34 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


My bourbon is gone 😔
posted by phunniemee at 6:34 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


In fairness, Fluffy WAS delicious.
posted by caviar2d2 at 6:35 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


His bullshit stream just evades every single question. The questions they give him may as well not exist.
posted by Philipschall at 6:35 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


You can tell when he randomly remembers the lines his handlers trained him on and he throws them in there.
posted by Emmy Rae at 6:35 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


Finally…
posted by njohnson23 at 6:36 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


*Looks around sheepishly*
*Puts down fork and knife*
*Let's cat hop off dinner plate*
posted by Hairy Lobster at 6:36 PM on September 10 [16 favorites]


Call him a felon.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:36 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


I’m biting all my nails off
posted by sucre at 6:37 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


sorry we can’t just move on, they’re eating cats and dogs in springfield
posted by dis_integration at 6:37 PM on September 10 [15 favorites]


I've been to Springfield OH and it's not the immigrants who are eating the pets
posted by rikschell at 6:39 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Wow, calling the FBI a fraud...
posted by Reverend John at 6:39 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Jesus, mute him.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:39 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


I've gotten more pets since Biden took office, what's that about?
posted by Emmy Rae at 6:39 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


He took a bullet to the head? We should all be so lucky.
posted by Catblack at 6:39 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


“It’s up to the American people to stop him.”
posted by box at 6:39 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Why don't they shut his mike off? He's getting so much ore talk time
posted by MiraK at 6:39 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


I thought his mic was supposed to be off?
posted by gingerbeer at 6:39 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


Am not impressed that the moderators are letting Trump cut in and argue with them.
posted by The Outsider at 6:39 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


The more I watch her the more I actually like all her hand movements. It's a little weird. I do unnecessary gesturing too when I'm worked up. Hoping she's got the neurodivergent vote on lock.
posted by phunniemee at 6:39 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


Trump just threw shade at the AG of NY state.

To paraphrase Will Smith - GET TISH JAMES' NAME OUT of your DAMN MOUTH, you MANGLED HELLBEAST.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:40 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Why is he allowed to interrupt? I thought the mics were supposed to stay muted when not actually addressed.
posted by TwoStride at 6:40 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


Oh, I think it's fine he has his mic on. He's only cooking himself. I mean, seriously. Harris team wanted unmuted mics, so yeah. Let him cook. He's not doing himself any favors.
posted by queensissy at 6:41 PM on September 10 [32 favorites]


Went out for a smoke so I'm like 8 minutes behind.
posted by vrakatar at 6:41 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Harris wanted the mics unmuted so everyone could hear how unhinged he is. He is proving to be even more unhinged than expected.
posted by charred husk at 6:41 PM on September 10 [21 favorites]


Why is he allowed to interrupt?

Yes I don't understand why they're even in the same room.
posted by Rash at 6:41 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


And I'm happily surprised by the moderators calling him on his shit re: executing babies, eating pets, etc.
posted by queensissy at 6:41 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


Bet afterward he calls them crooked and cheating since they DIDN'T mute him...
posted by stormyteal at 6:42 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


r/Conservative post right now: "It is so completely obvious Harris got the debate questions ahead of time."

Has it really been so long since we've had prepared candidates that we've forgotten what it's like?
posted by clawsoon at 6:42 PM on September 10 [42 favorites]


“Defund the police, she’s been against that forever.”
posted by box at 6:43 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Why is he allowed to interrupt? I thought the mics were supposed to stay muted when not actually addressed.

I believe the moderators were going to go for "we'll unmute if it will help the audience know what's happening".
posted by hoyland at 6:43 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Harris is transing all the aliens because of fracking, you heard it here first folks.
posted by phunniemee at 6:43 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


Oh, Kamala, please get him on the bankruptcies
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:43 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


TRANSGENDER OPERATIONS ON ILLEGAL ALIENS IN PRISON

This is conservative mad libs.
posted by charred husk at 6:43 PM on September 10 [59 favorites]




Big difference from 2016 - he’s not smirking and making exaggerated faces while Kamala is speaking. He’s just glowering. I really do think that this wiseass persona against Hilary convinced a bunch of people that he was a badass and worth voting for.

None of that performance is here tonight. He’s barely moving and clearly grinding his teeth. That smirky wiseass is missing, and I don’t think it’s going to do him any favors.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:43 PM on September 10 [12 favorites]


Transgender operations on immigrants in jail? Okey doke.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:44 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


TRANSGENDER OPERATIONS ON ILLEGAL ALIENS IN PRISON

Bingo!
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:44 PM on September 10 [21 favorites]


That’s what he thinks she meant by “transnational crime.”
posted by armeowda at 6:44 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


Oh, suddenly you don't like being interrupted Donald?
posted by Reverend John at 6:44 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


So... trump is anti-fracking?
posted by lkc at 6:44 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Here we go January 6!
posted by kerf at 6:44 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Thinking back to the debate seen in Naomi Alderman's The Power where the woman candidate is just getting more and more fed up with the man's nonsense and eventually she just walks over and zaps him.

Kamala's doing that, but without taking a step and with a smile on her face.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:44 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


Of course as CA AG she tried to stop gender affirming care for trans people in CA prisons, but whatev.
posted by gingerbeer at 6:44 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]




Someone on his team must have thought “I’m speaking now” was going to be a huge burn. It’s not so effective when the guy talking is the only one who hears the interruption.
posted by tllaya at 6:44 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


“Solar is terrible and it takes a whole desert full of panels to barely get any power. By the way I’m a big fan of solar.”
posted by soundguy99 at 6:45 PM on September 10 [46 favorites]


r/Conservative post right now: "It is so completely obvious Harris got the debate questions ahead of time."

That's hilarious, any 3rd-year Debate student could have made a list of 40 questions last week and been correct about 35 of them being in this debate.

Preparation and thinking are VOODOO to them.
posted by mmoncur at 6:46 PM on September 10 [32 favorites]


This dude is gone, totally fried.
posted by Liquidwolf at 6:46 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


he gettin mad
posted by phunniemee at 6:46 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Trump regrets nothing. He wasn't president that day. It wasn't even his job.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:46 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Nancy Pelosi is responsible for Jan 6
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:47 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


This is amazing. He hasn’t been this angry in a debate. She did it.
posted by OnTheLastCastle at 6:47 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


So it was Pelosi all along!
posted by gingerbeer at 6:47 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


Someone is going down with suburban moms methinks. Whoo hoo!
posted by y2karl at 6:48 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


End the chaos.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:49 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


It just occurred to me that I wasn't sure I would watch the debate, but I knew for sure I would read what people wrote about it on metafilter, so I made a donation to the site.

I realize this comment reaches you after a long day of getting texts from politicians asking for donations.
posted by Emmy Rae at 6:49 PM on September 10 [66 favorites]


Letting the drunk granddad rant. Jesus, the fucking media.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:50 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Wasn’t he just complaining about stochastic violence against himself, and now he’s claiming bloodbath isn’t?
posted by tllaya at 6:50 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


My [uneaten] dog right now if anyone needs it.

Looks tasty.
posted by donpardo at 6:50 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


LOL the pivot from Jan 6 to "leave the debate right now and sign a bill to close the border"

And WHOA he was "sarcastic" when he said "we lost by a whisker"! Amazing. Aaaand he's just pivoted to immigration again.
posted by MiraK at 6:50 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


Ooooh, he's doubling down on the stolen election lie in a question about importance of the truth!
posted by Reverend John at 6:51 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Just tuned in. Has Trump referred to Harris by her actual name even once in this debate, or just called her "she" the whole time?
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 6:52 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Donald Trump: "We need Walz."

Politifact rating: TRUE
posted by Rhaomi at 6:52 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


He is arguing with the MODERATOR now YESSSSSS
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:52 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


mydonkeybenjamin, he's not even calling her "she", he's calling "them" "they".
posted by MiraK at 6:53 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


Kamala said all he will talk about are grievances and that’s exactly what he’s doing.
posted by girlmightlive at 6:53 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


I do unnecessary gesturing too when I'm worked up. Hoping she's got the neurodivergent vote on lock.

Plus all those of us from cultural backgrounds where "what's an unnecessary gesture?"
posted by trig at 6:53 PM on September 10 [41 favorites]


DONALD TRUMP WAS FIRED BY 81 MILLION AMERICANS BAIT
posted by phunniemee at 6:54 PM on September 10 [54 favorites]


How gender inclusive!
posted by childofTethys at 6:54 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


“Donald Trump was fired by eighty-one million people.”

GOD DAMN
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:54 PM on September 10 [28 favorites]


I think this is the best sentence of the night" "Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people. Clearly he's having a very hard time processing it but let's be clear about that. "
posted by MiraK at 6:54 PM on September 10 [86 favorites]


Call him a loser more yes 🤤
posted by phunniemee at 6:54 PM on September 10 [17 favorites]


*gasp* world leaders are laughing at him!
posted by maggiemaggie at 6:54 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


I so appreciate the corrections and callouts from the moderators tonight.
posted by Songdog at 6:55 PM on September 10 [15 favorites]


"Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people, and clearly he is having a difficult time processing that."

I WANT THAT ON A POSTER NOW
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 6:55 PM on September 10 [35 favorites]


Thoughtful of the debate stage designers to put a Void between the candidates in case anyone needs to scream into one.
posted by mikepop at 6:55 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


Wait, why tf is he getting a chance to "respond" when he's the one who started the derail in the first place by talking over the moderator? Did I miss something?
posted by MiraK at 6:55 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Orban is where you're going to go now? Really?
posted by gingerbeer at 6:55 PM on September 10 [15 favorites]


Fact checking him in real time must be a labor of many many Hercules.
posted by y2karl at 6:55 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


I'm starting to have trouble following his rant...
posted by Reverend John at 6:56 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Once again, Trump has no idea that citing Orban as a supporter is not the win he thinks it is.
posted by soundguy99 at 6:56 PM on September 10 [24 favorites]


nobody knows who viktor orban is!! what are you talking about????!
posted by dis_integration at 6:56 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


why tf is he getting a chance to "respond" when he's the one who started the derail in the first place

rope a dope
posted by vrakatar at 6:57 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


> Kamala said all he will talk about are grievances and that’s exactly what he’s doing.

I hope she points it out. Two or three times, even. It's not enough to tell them what he's going to do, it's necessary to point at him doing it and say, "See?"
posted by MiraK at 6:57 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Harris is so in control I have zero problem taking her speaking time to go downstairs and fixing myself a snack, knowing that she’s got this.
posted by Capt. Renault at 6:58 PM on September 10 [23 favorites]


Orban is a dog-whistle to Russian supporters, neo-Nazis, other racists and homophobes in the Repubican Party and its membership.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 6:59 PM on September 10 [19 favorites]


Wonder of she'll bring up the beheaded babies .
posted by pattern juggler at 6:59 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


> Harris is so in control I have zero problem taking her speaking time to go downstairs and fixing myself a snack, knowing that she’s got this.

Yeah dang she's doing pretty great! I know it's too early and I don't wanna jinx it though lol.
posted by MiraK at 6:59 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


How would you deal with this current real problem?
It never woulda happened if I was president


Ummmmm
posted by PistachioRoux at 6:59 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Theoretically speaking, do you think a candidate could use sign language while their opponent is talking, maybe just a couple of key words like "lie"?
posted by The Outsider at 6:59 PM on September 10 [15 favorites]


There’s two groups: 100 Israeli hostages and 40,000 dead Palestinians. Guess which one gets more airtime.
posted by MisantropicPainforest at 6:59 PM on September 10 [16 favorites]


Sorority party. Seriously? (..why am I even surprised.)
posted by velvet_n_purrs at 6:59 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


"Putin would never have gone into Ukraine" like he wasn't there already
posted by senor biggles at 7:00 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


Her reactions are tacit communications at their finest. He is rattled babbling drunken grandpa.
posted by y2karl at 7:00 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


Really should have taken the time to short Truth Social today.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:01 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


Wasn't Jared supposed to have fixed the whole Middle East thing while Trump was pres?
posted by gingerbeer at 7:01 PM on September 10 [17 favorites]


He’ll fix I/P & Ukraine “even before taking office.”
posted by soundguy99 at 7:02 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Promise to end the war in Ukraine while he’s president elect — literally a promise to violate the Logan act.
posted by nathan_teske at 7:02 PM on September 10 [26 favorites]


Orban is a dog-whistle to Russian supporters, neo-Nazis, other racists and homophobes in the Repubican Party and its membership.


Imagine traveling back to 1989 and telling Orban this is how his career would end.
posted by ocschwar at 7:02 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


DAMN, Kamala, TAKE HIM DOWN! That was a phenomenal roast. I love that she started talking directly to him, "Military leaders you have worked with have told me you are a disgrace." Fuck that was cathartic. His face was a study in neutered rage.
posted by MiraK at 7:02 PM on September 10 [52 favorites]


still trying to make it a pipeline measuring contest with biden
posted by phunniemee at 7:03 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


It's so satisfying seeing him have to stand there and be called out
posted by senor biggles at 7:03 PM on September 10 [15 favorites]


My God. After this, whatever else, it should be absolutely crystal clear to anyone sitting on the fence just how different these two candidates are. There cannot be a much starker choice provided to the American voter. My God.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:03 PM on September 10 [21 favorites]


“Their crime weights are way down”
posted by sucre at 7:03 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


She just told him he’s a punchline to world leaders he thinks he’s puppeteering.

I can think of few better ways to get under a narcissist’s skin.
posted by armeowda at 7:04 PM on September 10 [32 favorites]


and she is getting under his skin...for sure
posted by winston smith at 7:06 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


still trying to make it a pipeline measuring contest with biden

*cue accordion hands*
posted by soundguy99 at 7:06 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


She roasted him right before the commercial break. That was well done.
posted by surlyben at 7:06 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


He had the opportunity to point out the hypocrisy of Harris stressing the importance of the rule of law when the issue of Gaza came up, but I guess that was beyond him.
posted by mydonkeybenjamin at 7:06 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


Pleasantly surprised by the moderators, Muir and Davis. Given that I think it's an insult to sanity that Trump even exists, if we had to have this debate I don't see how you could have moderated it much better.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:07 PM on September 10 [18 favorites]


Great first half! Go Harris! Gotta say the moderators have been top-notch.
posted by lock robster at 7:07 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


It's so satisfying seeing him have to stand there and be called out

And he's unable to make eye contact with her. She's looking at her as she speaks, but he's just not able to look at her.
posted by mikelieman at 7:08 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


He had the opportunity to point out the hypocrisy of Harris stressing the importance of the rule of law when the issue of Gaza came up, but I guess that was beyond him.

Can't risk showing respect for Arab lives.
posted by pattern juggler at 7:08 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


She roasted him right before the commercial break. That was well done.

Also, the way she shifted to addressing him directly there: "you" not "him".

Is "weird" still in the hopper? although really I'd like it pointed out that his comments on migrants are racist.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 7:09 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


I'm not a TV news watcher so I've never heard of David Muir, but I'm kind of a fan now.
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:09 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Oh no my stream is faltering
posted by phunniemee at 7:09 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]




Okay, he literally refuses to say "Ukraine should win" even though that was the "simple question" the moderators asked, "can you say you want Ukraine to win". Hes going on and on about "the war should end, too many lives are being lost. I know Putin, I know Zelenskyy."

Oooh a redirect, "Yes or no, should Ukraine win?" Trump says, "The war should stop."

Why doesn't Kamala ever get "a chance to respond"? Why is she being served a brand new question right now?? This is getting kind of ridiculous.
posted by MiraK at 7:09 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


Please, Kamala, point out that he didn't answer the question "how".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:10 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


it looks to me like there is foam at the corner of his mouth.
posted by os tuberoes at 7:10 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Watch out for Zombie Biden!
posted by lock robster at 7:11 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


"they threw him out of the campaign like a dog"
a dinner bell rings in Springfield
posted by phunniemee at 7:11 PM on September 10 [43 favorites]


Half of America sees this raving old man nearly stroking out and says ‘Yup, I want this guy.”
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:12 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


"You're not running against Joe Biden. You're running against me."
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 7:12 PM on September 10 [31 favorites]


He won't look at her. He thinks she's pretty, so he's just not looking at her so he doesn't get distracted by her cheekbones. (Source: the Atlantic [gift link]).
posted by acridrabbit at 7:13 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Gotta say, I'm not watching and this thread is kinda making me wish I were! That may be the first time in my entire life I've felt that way about a presidential debate... usually I'm watching it and wish I weren't, or not watching it and glad I'm not. But this seems like pretty cathartic TV!
posted by potrzebie at 7:13 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


What swing-state voters are saying about the Harris-Trump debate. (Washington Post gift link.)

(Spoiler, Harris is winning.)
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:13 PM on September 10 [12 favorites]


God, I can't help thinking that the more unhinged and moronic Trump sounds tonight, the more craven and groveling and Orwellian his cheerleaders in Congress and right-wing media are gonna sound tomorrow.
posted by Rykey at 7:13 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


"You would give up [American intervention in the Russia-Ukraine war] for the sake of... what you think is a friendship with a dictator who would eat you for lunch!"
posted by MiraK at 7:14 PM on September 10 [39 favorites]


Grar! Stop giving him extra rambling time!

Bonus grar: Telling Harris to be quiet during his illicit interjection.
posted by The Outsider at 7:14 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


OMG I'm loving the jabs Harris is giving Trump - "They would eat you for lunch"
posted by maggiemaggie at 7:14 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


Ha! "a dictator who would eat you for lunch"
posted by The_Auditor at 7:14 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


I gave up after 20 minutes. Listening to him rant and spew bullshit is too hard on my nervous system. And while the moderators are trying to keep him in check, they've failed at keeping equal time. The whole statement/counter/short response format fell apart after five minutes and Trump keeps getting in one last word.

Some people might be happy about that as it gives him more time to sound crazy, but a lot of what he says isn't getting fact checked and it's just giving him a platform for more lies.
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 7:15 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


It's infuriating how often "I'll give you a minute here Mr Trump" happens. That said, it's also hilarious that he cannot let any slight against his extremely flawed character go unchecked. And doubly hilarious he thinks "I'll bet screaming at everyone will help this situation!"
posted by revmitcz at 7:15 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


My roommate just came out of his room to get his grubhub delivery and we had the following exchange:

"Dude, if you aren't watching the debate..."

(Big grin) "oh, I am."
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:15 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


Nobody ever thinks about Russia's nuclear weapons! It's not like it has been a central consideration of all serious policy debate around aid to Ukraine.

I know it's just one in a torrent of nonsense but I just can't even.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:15 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


I’m making my brain throw up by thinking this, but… is he kinda enjoying being dominated by a woman like this?
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:16 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


Stop giving him extra rambling time

CNN has a real-time bar graph, Who’s speaking the most — and least — in the debate . She's at 22 minutes; he's at 29.
posted by Rash at 7:16 PM on September 10 [12 favorites]


Eat him for lunch like a dog
posted by Rumple at 7:17 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


WHY IS HE TALKING AGAIN?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 7:17 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


ROPE A DOPE
posted by vrakatar at 7:17 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Well, there's a dope, anyway....
posted by wenestvedt at 7:18 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Why are they giving him so much time? He just yells and gets to keep going. WTAF is happening??
posted by tristeza at 7:19 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


"This F......... ormer President"
posted by dannyboybell at 7:19 PM on September 10 [56 favorites]


“This ………….. f-former President.”

Right there with you, Kamala. I also had another word in mind.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:19 PM on September 10 [22 favorites]


She was not going to say “former president “
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:19 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


The length of that pause when she said "and this............former president" was: *chef's kiss*
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:19 PM on September 10 [38 favorites]


Eat him for lunch like a dog

That just gave me an idea. Is Major Biden hungry?
posted by armeowda at 7:19 PM on September 10 [12 favorites]


"This.............former president" hahaha dead
posted by senor biggles at 7:20 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


Oh, there was a real "fill in your own epithet here" pause in that "this .... former president".
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 7:20 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


have you heard about how the media treats Trump? have you been in a coma since 2014?
posted by rikschell at 7:20 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Abdul?
posted by wenestvedt at 7:20 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


is he kinda enjoying being dominated by a woman like this?
that she's beautiful, he's sweating, yet they aren't in a dimly lit hotel room is only adding to his confusion
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:20 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


I'm pretty fucking despondent about the state of our structures of power these days and no Democrat will ever make me happy, but I do have to say I am loving watching Harris slap this dumb bitch around. I've been waiting a long time for it.
posted by phunniemee at 7:20 PM on September 10 [43 favorites]


And I would love for Kamala to come.back and say "the head of the Taliban is [insert name], I don't know who Abdul is".
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:21 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


"why did you send me a picture of my house?" "You're gonna have to think about that, Abdul"

I'm at work so I'm paying attention sporadically, but what the fuck is he talking about here?
posted by oc-to-po-des at 7:21 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Holeeeeeee fuck he said she “put out.”
posted by soundguy99 at 7:22 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


He was trying to sound like a tough guy. That was it.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:23 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Obviously Harris can say what she wants to respond to an attack on her identity, but I wish sometime someone would just be like "hello?? people are multiracial all over this country? please catch up to 1970 at least"

edited to add: It's fucking NORMAL, grow up loser
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:23 PM on September 10 [19 favorites]


Wait, when did he say she "put out"?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:23 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Holeeeeeee fuck he said she “put out.”

I read that in the context of "she put out in the media (accounts of her race)"

But then she ripped him on his racist history.
posted by mikelieman at 7:24 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


I'm at work so I'm paying attention sporadically, but what the fuck is he talking about here?

I think he means he could have his house blown up?
posted by Liquidwolf at 7:24 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Kamala is DESTROYING Trump on the debate stage!

We need $30K to keep GA blue and secure a Harris VICTORY >> georgiademocrat.us/now?t=MQ96Pt

GA Dems
Stop2End
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:24 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Why tf is he talking AGAIN
posted by MiraK at 7:24 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Apparently threatening some random person in Afghanistan named Abdul because the leader of the Taliban is Hibatullah Akhundzada, not Abdul.
posted by nathan_teske at 7:24 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


"She is Biden"
posted by mikelieman at 7:25 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


"They have to stretch back to things I've done 40, 50 years ago" ... and the premise of the question is you're still doing it today.
posted by Reverend John at 7:25 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


yep, he's dare I say it bidening himself right outa my hair
.
posted by vrakatar at 7:25 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Hitting him like an AC130 gunship on a squirrel.
posted by y2karl at 7:25 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


On her Blackness. Man, you cannot deliver a big, fat juicy pitch to Harris like that, and not have her hit it out of the park and into the Allegheny River.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:25 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


jesus what a piece of shit this guy is. i mean, we know this, but wow.
posted by The_Auditor at 7:26 PM on September 10 [19 favorites]


LET HER RESPOND! BULLSHIT!
posted by Reverend John at 7:27 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


"9 years later, do you have a plan"
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:27 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


ABC News: "What if instead of muting the mics, we said we were going to mute them and just randomly decided on the fly whether to mute the mics or not?"
posted by jeoc at 7:27 PM on September 10 [47 favorites]


He directly lied about her policies and they didn't let her respond after letting him get rambling responses over and over.
posted by Reverend John at 7:28 PM on September 10 [17 favorites]


How does he manage to say "black" with a hard "r"?
posted by gauche at 7:28 PM on September 10 [26 favorites]


Who the fuck is letting those mics go on?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:28 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


On Obamacare: OLD MAN, YOU HAD THE TRIFECTA AND YOU STILL COULDNT DO IT
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:29 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


Kamala : "Hey, why don't we talk about and compare our plans?"

TFG (to be read in the voice of a dipshit) : "HOLD ON I HAVE A FEW MORE DUMB THINGS TO SHOUT ABOUT HOW EVERYONE ELSE BUT ME SUCKS!"
posted by revmitcz at 7:29 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


"I have concepts of a plan."
posted by vverse23 at 7:29 PM on September 10 [40 favorites]


"i have concepts of a plan" oh my god i am dying
posted by nightcoast at 7:29 PM on September 10 [24 favorites]


He has no plan and he has no answer. What an double down idiot.
posted by Catblack at 7:29 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


"I have concepts of a plan"

I doubt that!!!!!!
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:29 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


I have CONCEPTS of a plan! Coming in two weeks!
posted by PareidoliaticBoy at 7:29 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


i hAvE cOnCePtS oF a PlAn
posted by phunniemee at 7:29 PM on September 10 [42 favorites]


“Just be clear, you still don’t have a plan.”

Thank you moderator.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:29 PM on September 10 [60 favorites]


So to be clear you don't have a plan"
"
I scared my cats I cackled so loud
posted by danapiper at 7:29 PM on September 10 [17 favorites]


literal lol at "I have concepts of a plan... I'm not president right now!"
posted by Rhaomi at 7:30 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


I HAVE CONCEPTS OF A PLAN

me too buddy
posted by sucre at 7:30 PM on September 10 [26 favorites]


36 minutes now, to her 30. Why do they let him?
posted by Rash at 7:30 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


He doesn't even have a pl-
posted by leftover_scrabble_rack at 7:30 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


9 years later, a concept of a plan. Rad, we should have the final plan in say 30 years, easy peezy
posted by p3t3 at 7:30 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Giving deserved props to John McCain for saving Obamacare.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:31 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


Me to my boss: "I have concepts of a plan."
posted by jeoc at 7:31 PM on September 10 [25 favorites]


Oooh “stop with the continuous lying about this stuff”
posted by biblioPHL at 7:31 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


He drew an Obamacare replacement in crayon! He swears!
posted by lock robster at 7:31 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


I'm not President right now. No kidding.
posted by y2karl at 7:31 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Oh I cannot WAIT to hear him trash McCain for the next unearned interruption they're gonna let him have.
posted by revmitcz at 7:31 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


"I have concepts of a plan" made my roommate laugh louder than I have heard him laugh in two years.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:31 PM on September 10 [28 favorites]


I’m making my brain throw up by thinking this, but… is he kinda enjoying being dominated by a woman like this?

It immediately stuck out to me in the megathreads of yore that when Stormy Daniels spanked him with a magazine he became surprisingly docile. The world might have turned out a different place if he had taken some time to explore the parts of himself that he had long neglected on the basis of what he thought masculinity must be.
posted by a faded photo of their beloved at 7:31 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


I feel so much better now than I did 90 minutes ago.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:32 PM on September 10 [17 favorites]


He had a brief flash of his old snarkiness where he was all sarcastic ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ about “I don’t really care what race she calls herself” and in the middle of it he said something like, “she claims to be Black when it’s an advantage”, and then he said, “she puts out, yeah I said it.”
posted by soundguy99 at 7:32 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


"The late, great John McCain, WHO, BY THE WAY, ACTUALLY EXISTED"
posted by dannyboybell at 7:33 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Hell, even Peter Quill had 12 percent of a plan, and he was an idiot.
posted by notoriety public at 7:33 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


Nice little 2A gun owner outreach there.
posted by vrakatar at 7:33 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


Not be be vulgar, but all this dunking on Trump to his face has cured my E.D.
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:34 PM on September 10 [52 favorites]


I feel like she should just get uninterrupted time at the end to even out the speaking times.
posted by gingerbeer at 7:34 PM on September 10 [18 favorites]


She is so transparently winning, and so definitively, that it fills me with existential despair to know that tomorrow morning, the headlines will explain to me why this is not what happened and why he actually won...actually.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:34 PM on September 10 [64 favorites]


I wonder how long he's going to slouch there with that little clownish smirk on his face.
posted by vverse23 at 7:34 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Will he actually address climate change or has he forgotten about it because Harris pivoted to boosting manufacturing?
posted by Reverend John at 7:34 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Electoral Dysfunction?
posted by papercake at 7:35 PM on September 10 [17 favorites]


Fucking tariffs again.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:35 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


FunFact: ‘Concepts of a Plan’ is the new name of forty-seven bands.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:35 PM on September 10 [28 favorites]


He has been distracted by manufacturing and also China wants to assassinate auto workers?
posted by quercus23 at 7:35 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Hunter Biden reference! That’s numberwang!
posted by leotrotsky at 7:35 PM on September 10 [34 favorites]


"Sir", the question was about climate change.
posted by Reverend John at 7:35 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Man, they're just letting him go on with "Crackpot MAGA ranting" to run out the clock before the break.
posted by mikelieman at 7:35 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


climate change nothingburger
posted by tarantula at 7:36 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Ehh, not sure why moderators are now losing their courage about cutting Trump off when he goes over time on his responses. Cut him off you cowards.
posted by Wretch729 at 7:36 PM on September 10 [14 favorites]


I am annoyed they let him get away without even acknowledging that he didn't discuss climate change at all.
posted by Reverend John at 7:36 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


it's Christmas for the Harris social media division
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:37 PM on September 10 [22 favorites]


Today I learned you spell climate change "C H I N A."
posted by lock robster at 7:37 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


I liked Harris' pivot to manufacturing. But if climate change comes up in the next debate, which it should, she should wrap up her answer by tying it back to climate change so he can't forget what the topic was.
posted by Reverend John at 7:38 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


wow. just wow.
posted by vrakatar at 7:38 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


I got some real "prosecutor v. pro-se defendant" vibes out of that. The Judges did not meet my expectations.
posted by mikelieman at 7:38 PM on September 10 [16 favorites]


Metafilter: "I have concepts of a plan."
posted by Catblack at 7:38 PM on September 10 [19 favorites]


I saw Concepts Of A Plan open for Fugazi at the Hordern Pavilion back when I was at uni
posted by Fiasco da Gama at 7:39 PM on September 10 [40 favorites]




I am going to have a fucking stroke - STOP LETTING HIM TALK OH MY GOOODDDDD
posted by tristeza at 7:39 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


i believe a plan starts at conception
posted by paper chromatographologist at 7:40 PM on September 10 [40 favorites]


I need a cigarette. I need a whole new chemical dependency.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:40 PM on September 10 [22 favorites]


Sorry to get hung up on this, but I want to see headlines tomorrow that say "Trump forgets to answer question about climate change, Is he getting senile?"
posted by Reverend John at 7:41 PM on September 10 [21 favorites]


Don't Snack on Me
posted by Joey Michaels at 7:41 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


Looks like you picked the right day to start sniffing glue!
posted by rikschell at 7:42 PM on September 10 [7 favorites]


i hAvE cOnCePtS oF a PlAn

I just threw something at my television. Fortunately we planned ahead and are watching it on the one we got from the garage sale.
posted by corb at 7:42 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


I think i remember reading Heidegger's "concept of a plan" in grad school, it was also the work of a Nazi
posted by dis_integration at 7:42 PM on September 10 [21 favorites]


Well, I feel more okay now.
posted by vverse23 at 7:43 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Why hasn't she done it? That's his move? Oh he's going all kooky now.
posted by Catblack at 7:44 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Oh why did we end with him.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:44 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


"We're a failing nation"

No, we aren't, asshole. Fuck off.
posted by Reverend John at 7:44 PM on September 10 [22 favorites]


She’s vice president, doofus. Still thinks he’s running against Biden.

Nice to see him squander his closing statement.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:44 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Stop saying “lethal fighting force” like it’s not a disgusting and embarrassing thing to have or want.
posted by biblioPHL at 7:44 PM on September 10 [17 favorites]


If there’s another debate, they’d better let her speak last. All he’s doing is attacking.
posted by tllaya at 7:44 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Facts First: Trump’s claim is false. Harris was not sent to negotiate peace, and she has never met with Putin. In reality, she met with US allies, including Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, at the Munich Security Conference in the days before Russia’s February 2022 invasion of Ukraine. Putin was not at the conference. (CNN)
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:44 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


She did a great 2 minute pitch to everyone directly her vision of a way forward.

Donald Trump launches into an attack, "why didn't she already do it?" and repeats all the hits. WWIII. "What These People have done to our country!"

Note his constant use of "These People" as the target of his rhetoric.
posted by mikelieman at 7:45 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


And he is talking about the danger of nukes, but didn't he once ask if we could stop a hurricane by nuking it?
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:45 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Wow. He went all in on negativity and paranoia as his closing statement. That's gonna leave a bad taste in a lot of people's mouths I think.
posted by Reverend John at 7:45 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


He planned the withdrawal and blames the next VP for its execution? Weasel.
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:45 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


Note that even in the debate against Biden there was a panel of undecided voters most of whom came away from it convinced that Trump was a crazy liar. I know it offends everyone’s sense of fairness that he’s still being allowed to rant over his time, but he CANNOT stay focused when he does this, he’s just ranting the greatest hits of the NewsMax Cinematic Universe, and given the sanewashing most of the mainstream media has been gifting him, this may well be first time in a long time a bunch of voters are actually seeing him in action as Angry Ranting Grandpa with his brains leaking out his ears.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:46 PM on September 10 [39 favorites]


I haven’t seen a beatdown like this since the last time I saw the Harlem Globetrotters.
posted by Capt. Renault at 7:46 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


The really insane thing is I can’t tell if he just has no debate prep or is just ignoring it all to be a madman.
posted by corb at 7:46 PM on September 10 [15 favorites]


Well good night folks it's been real thank you for spending your daily favorite limit on all my stupid takes 🙏
posted by phunniemee at 7:47 PM on September 10 [35 favorites]


Well, I think that went (nearly) as well as could reasonably be expected. Now we get to see if it moves the needle at all.
posted by Reverend John at 7:47 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Damn. Blown out of the water. Really glad Harris hit her beats tonight. I hope it finally registers in the polls.
posted by lock robster at 7:48 PM on September 10 [16 favorites]


Clips of Trump being insane already on Tiktok.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 7:49 PM on September 10 [12 favorites]


She was nervous early but got better all night. She defined herself as not Biden, which is nice, and she really shut down some of the most outlandish shit donnie said.

He was a mess compared to her.
posted by vrakatar at 7:49 PM on September 10 [12 favorites]


So she got about 85% of the speaking time Trump got in a 90 minute exchange, right? Is my math right? That seems like a huge gap.
posted by tllaya at 7:50 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


I suppose it would be unseemly, even with this guy, to suggest he might die. But it would be nice to remind everyone who would become president in that case.
posted by Glinn at 7:50 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Kevin Kruse on BlueSky: She keeps giving these good policy answers that are pitched directly to voters and then throws in a little dig at his ego … and then he rants just about the dig
posted by soundguy99 at 7:51 PM on September 10 [35 favorites]


Since money is free speech, seems the gender pay gap is in effect for the reverse...
posted by PistachioRoux at 7:52 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


So she got about 85% of the speaking time Trump got in a 90 minute exchange, right? Is my math right? That seems like a huge gap. Imagine a woman getting only 85% of what a man does...
posted by senor biggles at 7:52 PM on September 10 [40 favorites]


Paula Abdul knows what she did
posted by Pronoiac at 7:52 PM on September 10 [22 favorites]


I ended up watching the Washington Post feed and their post show is saying she mopped the floor with him.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:53 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


Harris was the one spouting nothing but platitudes? WTF is Vance talking about?
posted by Ignorantsavage at 7:53 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


The VP debate on Oct. 1, in NYC, will be hosted by CBS. Wonder if Trump will be on speaking terms with his running mate, or Vance, by then.
posted by Iris Gambol at 7:54 PM on September 10 [22 favorites]


So she got about 85% of the speaking time Trump got in a 90 minute exchange, right? Is my math right? That seems like a huge gap.

I've watched enough soccer to know that possession time doesn't necessarily have anything to do with the final score, thankfully.
posted by Navelgazer at 7:54 PM on September 10 [30 favorites]


NBC post-show just said that one of their staffers counted at least 50 times where Trump said “Biden” but he did not say “Kamala” or “Harris” ONCE.
posted by soundguy99 at 7:55 PM on September 10 [44 favorites]


Just wanted to thank all of you for sharing your comments. Whenever TFG would go on one of his rants, I'd refresh the page and be soothed by all of your posts. Couldn't have stuck with it without all of you. Grateful. 🙏
posted by JonathanB at 7:59 PM on September 10 [25 favorites]


“Harris-Trump Debate Post Game Show”—Countdown With Keith Olbermann, 10 September 2024
posted by ob1quixote at 7:59 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


My coping technique was to spitefully mute all of his statements. It was helpful.

He looked really odd. Maybe just fear and rage but a couple of times he looked like he might barf or something.
posted by bunderful at 8:02 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


I wonder if they told him not to say her name because he can’t pronounce Kamala correctly.
posted by papercake at 8:02 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


I only watched the second half after commercials cause I saw how it was going. I started to watch at first but got so pissed off just looking at that bad fake tan I turned it off. So thank you to the community for pulling me back in. He self-immolated. Half the country won't care and will say he meant to do that. But anyone that decides "yeah maybe not him again..." is a good thing.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:03 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


HE"S MADE OF BARF
posted by vrakatar at 8:03 PM on September 10 [18 favorites]


He probably can't remember her name, let alone pronounce it.
posted by stormyteal at 8:04 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Predicting tomorrow's CNN headline:

"Could Harris' Dramatic Debate Win Be a Problem for the Harris Campaign?"
posted by mmoncur at 8:04 PM on September 10 [39 favorites]


Let me predict his response to anyone saying he did poorly in the debate:

“It was just a joke. I was being sarcastic. Everyone knows that.”

I don’t remember where within the debate he essentially said that, but he did.
posted by tllaya at 8:06 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


I wonder how long he's going to slouch there with that little clownish smirk on his face.

It makes him look like a circus chimp who's continually shitting the pants of his little bellhop costume.
posted by PlusDistance at 8:07 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


Taylor Swift just endorsed Harris on IG
posted by girlmightlive at 8:08 PM on September 10 [77 favorites]


Taylor Swift just endorsed Harris on IG

BOOOOooooommmmm
posted by Rykey at 8:09 PM on September 10 [25 favorites]


Trump's health plan!
Trump's health plan!
I love ya, Trump's health plan
You're always two weeks away
posted by Rhaomi at 8:10 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


Taylor's endorsement:
Like many of you, I watched the debate tonight. If you haven’t already, now is a great time to do your research on the issues at hand and the stances these candidates take on the topics that matter to you the most. As a voter, I make sure to watch and read everything I can about their proposed policies and plans for this country.

Recently I was made aware that AI of ‘me’ falsely endorsing Donald Trump’s presidential run was posted to his site. It really conjured up my fears around AI, and the dangers of spreading misinformation. It brought me to the conclusion that I need to be very transparent about my actual plans for this election as a voter. The simplest way to combat misinformation is with the truth.

I will be casting my vote for Kamala Harris and Tim Walz in the 2024 Presidential Election. I’m voting for @kamalaharris because she fights for the rights and causes I believe need a warrior to champion them. I think she is a steady-handed, gifted leader and I believe we can accomplish so much more in this country if we are led by calm and not chaos. I was so heartened and impressed by her selection of running mate @timwalz, who has been standing up for LGBTQ+ rights, IVF, and a woman’s right to her own body for decades.

I’ve done my research, and I’ve made my choice. Your research is all yours to do, and the choice is yours to make. I also want to say, especially to first time voters: Remember that in order to vote, you have to be registered! I also find it’s much easier to vote early. I’ll link where to register and find early voting dates and info in my story.

With love and hope,

Taylor Swift
Childless Cat Lady
posted by nightcoast at 8:10 PM on September 10 [124 favorites]


Our kid's summary:

Harris: [ideas, vision, plans]
Trump: SHE IS GOING TO LET IMMIGRANTS EAT YOUR DOGS WHILE YOU PAY FOR THEIR SEX CHANGES.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:10 PM on September 10 [49 favorites]


Taylor Swift just endorsed Harris on IG

I'm calling it, time of death of Trump's campaign, ten minutes ago. She has saved us all once again.
posted by signal at 8:11 PM on September 10 [27 favorites]


I’m glad she specifically mentioned those AI images
posted by girlmightlive at 8:12 PM on September 10 [15 favorites]


From the outside looking in, I thought Harris did a fantastic job of putting herself forward and was masterful at handing Trump enough rope to hang himself on many occasions. I hope she's been able to sway enough uncommitted voters to her side and non-voters to get out there. Trump clearly, as always, played to his base successfully and anyone already convinced he's the answer won't be swayed by that debate, because he performed his usual routine for them. I'd love to see a second debate in a couple of weeks, when Harris is likely to be ahead in the polls and Trump will already be shitting bricks because he's facing not only another electoral defeat but also any chance he has to avoid what's coming closer and closer in all those legal battles.
posted by dg at 8:13 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


We got miles to go before we sleep but lets go!! Great night. Was fun watching him melt the hell down. Now lets get his punk ass alllll the way out of here.
posted by cashman at 8:13 PM on September 10 [16 favorites]


I wonder how long he's going to slouch there with that little clownish smirk on his face.

It makes him look like a circus chimp who's continually shitting the pants of his little bellhop costume.


I like to think that's the default smirk of a narcissist who absolutely MUST believe he is best at all times, or his world will crumble around him-- it's the little "fake smile because don't let them get to you don't let them get to you don't let none of this is happening, I am perfect, this is all lies, I am perfect, this is all lies" which is basically the little rotating icon on the "Input Unacceptable: Error: Reboot to : I am perfect, this is all lies" of their brain-- a cute little placeholder that could mean anything, while the system crashes in the background.
posted by The otter lady at 8:15 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


Tim Walz on MSNBC reacting to Swift’s endorsement, “As a fellow cat owner…”
posted by nathan_teske at 8:15 PM on September 10 [65 favorites]


Golly but it was so much fun watching that orange dude just stand there and punch himself in the face repeatedly. Good show, DonOld...
posted by pee tape at 8:15 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


I wish the average American was educated enough to realize what a bonkers ass moment it was when he doubled down against the Central Park Five.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:15 PM on September 10 [58 favorites]


Recently I was made aware that AI of ‘me’ falsely endorsing Donald Trump’s presidential run was posted to his site.
Strong "congratulations, you got my attention" vibe there
posted by BetaRayBiff at 8:15 PM on September 10 [52 favorites]


the headlines will explain to me why this is not what happened and why he actually won...actually.

NYT Headline tomorrow: "Trump Weathers Debate Storm Amidst Questions of Moderator Bias, and Harris's Preparation, Demeanor"

Political Analysis: "Is Harris Too 'Mean and Nasty' for the American People?"
posted by Saxon Kane at 8:16 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


Childless Cat Lady

I'd like to point out that Vance is going to cost Trump a few points just by that comment.
posted by signal at 8:16 PM on September 10 [36 favorites]


I cannot speak to how he came up with this analogy, but I must share my roommate's review of the debate:

"That was like watching an overstuffed hot dog fighting a wheat thresher."

.....Also, two minutes ago I read about Taylor Swift's endorsement, and got out of bed to go tell him the news - and saw he was throwing open his bedroom door at the same moment as I was throwing mine open. We spoke thus.

"Did you hear the latest?"
"Taylor Swift?"
"Yup."
"Yup."

Followed by grins and retreating back to our rooms.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:16 PM on September 10 [52 favorites]




Taylor Swift is our Galadriel.
posted by The otter lady at 8:17 PM on September 10 [23 favorites]


Swift pre-planned that timing for the most effect, how much ya wanna bet?
posted by stormyteal at 8:21 PM on September 10 [24 favorites]


Hey, at least they agree on the military industrial complex!
posted by iamck at 8:22 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Everyone saw during Covid what happens when you run a country on concepts, and I hope she hammers him on that over the next weeks. Concepts are okay for consultants and other bullshitters, but not for presidents of countries.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:22 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


Taylor Swift is our Galadriel.

More like Gandalf, “I come back to you now, at the turn of the tide. Taylor the Cat Lady.”
posted by leotrotsky at 8:26 PM on September 10 [33 favorites]


Holy shit, I can’t believe he deliberately poked the Taylor Swift bear and got the entirely predictable reaction.
posted by corb at 8:26 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


It was just a joke. I was being sarcastic. Everyone knows that.”

In an evening filled with Donnie’s toxic bullshit, that was the one moment that reached deep inside my ear into my brain, and grabbed a hold of long-repressed memories of grade school bullies and said “Hey, remember me?”
posted by Capt. Renault at 8:28 PM on September 10 [12 favorites]


Poking around social media it looks like “concepts of a plan” is gonna have some legs - could be the new “weird”.
posted by soundguy99 at 8:29 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


BREAKING NEWS: Trump has the ghost of a shadow of a concept of a plan
posted by mmoncur at 8:36 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


NYT headline: "Harris campaign may have trouble with concepts"
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:37 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


I was at MST Club, but I've been following this thread and I'm relieved that it seems to have gone well.
posted by JHarris at 8:38 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Trump has the ghost of a shadow of a concept of a plan

It lives in Canada and goes to another school, you don't know it but it's real, totally
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 8:38 PM on September 10 [23 favorites]


I’m glad she specifically mentioned those AI images

As soon as I heard about that, my first thought was that he poked the bear and he wasn’t going to like the results of getting said bear’s attention.
posted by azpenguin at 8:44 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


I'm sure Trump's already ranting on his fake Twitter about how it was rigged!/she got the answers ahead of time!/you cheated! (a favorite of my neighbor growing up when he lost at Street Fighter). But he has to, deep down, know how bad that went. Which is only going to make him act more insane.
posted by downtohisturtles at 8:46 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


But he has to, deep down, know how bad that went. Which is only going to make him act more insane.

Sure. But Trump truly doesn't know shit. He still thinks he's running against Biden.
posted by fluffy battle kitten at 8:48 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


A day may come when the courage of Men fails, when we forsake our friends, and break all bonds of fellowship, but it is not this day.
posted by VyanSelei at 8:51 PM on September 10 [21 favorites]


HUMAN SACRIFICE! DOGS AND CATS EATEN FOR DINNER! MASS HYSTERIA!
posted by guiseroom at 8:52 PM on September 10 [16 favorites]


That WaPo swing state voter reaction thing from upthread may totally boil my blood with some of the inane responses but jesus seeing them give Kamala the win 22 to 2 is the kind of thing I needed. Just wrecked him to an undeniable degree.
posted by jason_steakums at 8:55 PM on September 10 [23 favorites]


he poked the bear and he wasn’t going to like the results of getting said bear’s attention

🎶Look what you made me do!🎶
posted by armeowda at 8:58 PM on September 10 [23 favorites]


The section of my brain exposed to Excel Saga a decade and a half ago shook off some dust in disbelief tonight...
posted by JoeXIII007 at 8:59 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Taylor Swift just endorsed Harris on IG

Even worse, I hear Chachi's now leaning toward Perot.
posted by PlusDistance at 9:00 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


CNN instant poll of debate watchers:

Who did you think would win before the debate?
50% Trump
50% Harris

Who do you think won?
63% Harris
37% Trump

Their pollster notes that this is a near mirror-image of what their poll found after the June debate (33% Biden, 67% Trump)
posted by Rhaomi at 9:06 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


Even worse, I hear Chachi's now leaning toward Perot.

Trump is right, Seattle is a shithole right now, what with the right-wing extremists in council running our city into the ground. Why not give Zombie Perot a chance is all I'm saying.
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 9:09 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


Just a thanks to all of you who were able to watch this and give us who can't insights...

Let's Fucking Go
posted by Windopaene at 9:09 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


I wonder how long he's going to slouch there with that little clownish smirk on his face.
posted by vverse23 at 7:34 PM on September 10

It always reminds me of this.
posted by Kibbutz at 9:13 PM on September 10 [2 favorites]


Eat him for lunch like a dog
A big, beautiful dog...
posted by pee tape at 9:20 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


I had some cleaning to do. The landlord's dropping in tomorrow or the next day.

did I miss anything?
posted by philip-random at 9:20 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


More CNN instant poll results:

Favorability, pre- and post-debate:
Harris: 39% -> 45% (driven by independent voters, from net -17% to +9%)
Trump: 41% -> 39%

Confidence in ability to lead the country:
Harris: 32% a lot / 22% some / 46% none
Trump: 36% a lot / 18% some / 46% none

Who has better plans to solve national problems:
Harris: 42%
Trump: 33%
neither: 22%
posted by Rhaomi at 9:25 PM on September 10 [6 favorites]


so i watched it at a gay bar with some friends, and a friend of a friend of a friend was there--let's call him jordan, who mentioned that he was an undecided voter, with his number one issue being "the economy", as defined by "low inflation and high employment"

jordan is gay; he has the same crisp look as say, an anderson cooper, from the hair color and style to the skin tone, to, one presumes, looking really good in hugo boss

anyway, after the debate he was still undecided, because he believed "regular" americans wouldn't understand the word "rhetoric", which kamala used. when asked what that had to do with his number one issue, jordan waffled a bit and shrugged
posted by i used to be someone else at 9:35 PM on September 10 [20 favorites]


More like Gandalf, “I come back to you now, at the turn of the tide. Taylor the Cat Lady.”

This will always and forever belong to Gritty and Iceburgh.

At dawn, look to the East-

A former Californian who now resides in Georgia
posted by susiswimmer at 9:36 PM on September 10 [3 favorites]


It’s now two hours after the debate ended, and there are at least four “I have concepts of a plan” items for sale on Etsy.
posted by Naberius at 9:54 PM on September 10 [8 favorites]


More CNN instant poll results:

Who cares more about people like you? (pre- and post-debate)
Harris: 39% -> 44%
Trump: 43% -> 40%

Who would better handle the economy?
Harris: 37% -> 35%
Trump: 53% -> 55%

Did the debate change your mind?
Among Harris supporters: 2% changed mind / 10% reconsidering / 88% no effect
Among Trump supporters: 6% changed mind / 17% reconsidering / 78% no effect
posted by Rhaomi at 9:54 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


listening to the debate now.

" they are spheres of terra! there are spheres of terra!"

The Spheres of Terra? Is that a lost John Brunner book?
posted by Sauce Trough at 9:57 PM on September 10 [11 favorites]


"Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people, and clearly he is having a difficult time processing that."
I WANT THAT ON A POSTER NOW

Check Etsy tomorrow.

I had to miss the second half of it live, I'm listening to the remainder on YouTube now. I'm tired and need to sleep, but I feel like I can't go out in the world tomorrow without having heard it all.
posted by jenfullmoon at 9:58 PM on September 10 [5 favorites]


Please tell me there was enough meat in this thing for the Epic Rap Battle writers
posted by eustatic at 9:59 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


jordan waffled a bit and shrugged

"Hurt people hurt people." -Trixie and/or Katya
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 10:01 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Please tell me there was enough meat in this thing for the Epic Rap Battle writers

It'll be hard to top Henry Ford vs. Karl Marx.
posted by Faint of Butt at 10:09 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


The Spheres of Terra? Is that a lost John Brunner book?

pretty sure I saw them warming up Flaming Lips a decade or two ago, bottom of the bill. The drummer was wearing a PLEASE KILL ME NOW t-shirt. He was the best thing about them.
posted by philip-random at 10:10 PM on September 10 [4 favorites]


Harris campaign calls for 2nd presidential debate, challenging Trump (ABC) Less than an hour after the debate ended: The campaign put out an email touting her performance at the debate and blasting Trump for his responses and demeanor. The email ended with a direct question to the former president.

"Under the bright lights, the American people got to see the choice they will face this fall at the ballot box: between moving forward with Kamala Harris, or going backwards with Trump. That’s what they saw tonight and what they should see at a second debate in October. Vice President Harris is ready for a second debate. Is Donald Trump?”
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:12 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


Trump was so flustered, he SPOKE to reporters: Trump responded personally -- in an unusual visit to the "spin room" with reporters afterward. "They want another debate because they lost," he said. "So, we'll, you know, think about that."
posted by Iris Gambol at 10:14 PM on September 10 [10 favorites]


Who would better handle the economy?
Harris: 37% -> 35%
Trump: 53% -> 55%

What on earth about that debate made anyone think he's handled the economy better? He's literally touting things that will make the economy worse.
posted by Joey Michaels at 10:29 PM on September 10 [24 favorites]


looking really good in hugo boss

This is actually a historically common characteristic of people, shall we say, ideologically aligned with the MAGA movement.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 10:48 PM on September 10 [29 favorites]


For some reason Trump’s comment about Biden hating Harris struck me as especially ugly, even for Trump — “I’ll give you a little secret: He hates her,” Just writhing in pettiness, lies, and paranoia.
posted by TurnKey at 10:52 PM on September 10 [24 favorites]


Does anyone have a take on wtf Trump was doing with the multiple quotes last week of "lost by a whisker" if he is now just claiming it was sarcastic, and back on the Big Lie train? It definitely didn't sound like sarcasm in the clips I heard. Seemed like he may have been teasing some debate strategy, but if so, definitely dropped that idea.?.
posted by p3t3 at 11:06 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


looking really good in

 hugo boss

in case anyone missed the reference
posted by philip-random at 11:08 PM on September 10 [13 favorites]


>low inflation and high employment

well the good news is that if the current split government situation continues, the GOP House (and Senate?) will continue to hold their feet firmly on the brake pedal of economic expansion. No more big spending bills as the fiscal fights turn into politicized shitshows like the Clinton, Obama, and Biden budget standoffs.

As far as inflation, I'd actually expect a Trump win + GOP Congress would boost inflation something special for the remainder of the decade (deficit spending will become a centerpiece not something to rail against)

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tC2Q

contrasts total debt expansion vs CPI +% change, showing today's ~3% CPI is about the same as the Bush admin's.

As for 'high employment':

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tC2B graphs jobs (blue) with 74% of age 15 -64, showing we're now flying above the 'peak employment' peaks of 2000 and 2019. This is pretty good, even though manufacturing jobs have yet to 'come back' to the US still.
posted by torokunai at 11:21 PM on September 10 [1 favorite]


Did TFG inadvertently admit at the debate's very end to he and/or his children taking $3.5 million from the wife of the mayor of Moscow? If he did not, what exactly was the word salad his lead-paint-addicted mad cow prions coughed out actually trying to communicate with that strangely specific formulation? Anyone? Buehler?
posted by riverlife at 11:22 PM on September 10 [9 favorites]


For some reason Trump’s comment about Biden hating Harris struck me as especially ugly, even for Trump — “I’ll give you a little secret: He hates her,” Just writhing in pettiness, lies, and paranoia.

Every accusation is a confession. He hates Vance already, senses that he was both a bad VP pick, and is also not loyal to Trump (indeed, I think Vance is less a Trump supporter and more interested in power for himself down the line), and so he projects this onto Biden/Harris.
posted by Joakim Ziegler at 11:26 PM on September 10 [28 favorites]


i do want to clarify the friend of a friend of a friend was not wearing hugo boss tonight; and while I appreciate the stats, something tells me that the way he shifted his reasoning for being undecided is not that he is truly undecided, but rather aware that he would have a harder time finding companionship if he were honest about his predilections.

then again, it's probably a faux pas to introduce yourself and your politics on apps such as sniffer or röhmer
posted by i used to be someone else at 11:35 PM on September 10 [18 favorites]


What on earth about that debate made anyone think he's handled the economy better? He's literally touting things that will make the economy worse.

So, Harris very interestingly was showing her prosecutorial legal background tonight. One section was pure opening argument. “My opponent will claim…but I will show…” One part of that background however is trying not to spend a lot of time on bad facts unless you think you need to. And Harris spent very little time whatsoever on bad facts for her. There’s value in that - you look more in control, and she clearly “won” the debate. But it does make it harder to change peoples minds on things.

Right now, the economy for most people is bad facts for Kamala Harris, because she’s mentally tied to Biden, under whom prices increased radically. People don’t tend to think in terms of “what will actually help” because most people aren’t trained in economics and have no idea if massive tariffs will actually solve the problem. But Trump was talking about it and Harris wasn’t.
posted by corb at 11:41 PM on September 10 [21 favorites]


Show me on the doll where the vice president punked you.
posted by kirkaracha at 12:05 AM on September 11 [8 favorites]


I only took one note, I wrote it down verbatim.

Moderator: There is no state in this country where it is legal to kill a baby after it's born.

This is the real-time fact-checking in real-time so the facts are checked and no lie is left unchallenged, just like we wanted! Great job guys, I was almost misled into believing baby murder was now legal.

The other fact check I noticed was about the immigrants-eating-pets hoax.

So they fact checked him on things that only insane people believe, but he was lying constantly. The only way to really keep up is to have some kind of tally on screen, and that number would just keep rolling over the entire time he's speaking.

Some people will leave with the impression that they got him on the baby-murder and pet-cuisine lies, everything else he said must be legit. Thanks ABC!

---

Those people that believe that doctors murder newborns - that's a hell of a way to live, with that in your head. And the pet-eating and all the other lies. Like living in a nightmare. That's the goal, to make people scared and miserable. Y'know what? They probably deserve it, because something that absurd, you have to want to believe it.

If that's what you want to believe, I hope you're fucking miserable.
posted by adept256 at 12:07 AM on September 11 [24 favorites]


under whom prices profits increased radically.
posted by torokunai at 12:16 AM on September 11 [3 favorites]


"CHILDLESS CAT LADIES ARE EATING PEOPLE'S DOGS IN THE NINTH MONTH OF PREGNANCY!"

That kind of stuff goes down well at Trump rallies, but surely it can only alienate undecided voters. I mean, it's almost as if this guy is weird or something!
posted by Paul Slade at 12:41 AM on September 11 [6 favorites]


after the debate he was still undecided, because he believed "regular" americans wouldn't understand the word "rhetoric"

I got every word in that sentence! He's a straight talker!
posted by flabdablet at 1:01 AM on September 11 [3 favorites]


Thank you for watching this for me. I know this is far from the worst things Trump has done or said, but calling his own country "a failing nation" while running for its president, this is at the same time surreal and revealing. It's surreal I had to double check that he did say that. I mean Trump is an unrepentant insurrectionist, but if there are still any 'undecideds', here you have in his own words how much contempt he has in him for you.
posted by runcifex at 1:06 AM on September 11 [10 favorites]


Unfortunately no, insane numbers of people read it as him being patriotic. He cares so much. He hates watching us go downhill. He's the big strong daddy businessman who will make us great again. That's his whole pitch. That, and permission to hate.
posted by trig at 1:40 AM on September 11 [5 favorites]


I did quite enjoy hearing TFG confess to busing in and paying off his rally attendees.
posted by flabdablet at 1:42 AM on September 11 [4 favorites]


Harris did great (she's smart and adept and, obviously, the kind of person who would likely do a great job as President.) Trump was Trump (Orban likes me! He really really likes me!) The moderators did a good job of providing a background (with insanity fact-checked) for the whole thing.

God willing Trump looses dramatically in November. I will never understand how anyone can rationalize Trump-as-President: emotionally I can understand, he's white and 'successful' and that's important to a lot of people. But the guy's a fucking fruit cake. (Also, there's some sense in refuting every single slight - not necessarily good sense, but sense. And sometimes sense that sways the moment... On the other side, when Harris was talking about foreign policy I was all like, *swoon*)
posted by From Bklyn at 2:07 AM on September 11 [5 favorites]


Orban likes me! He really really likes me!

538 podcast said post-debate Google search stats had Harris at top, and Orban 2nd-most searched. Not exactly a household name, wonder what they'll make of those search results :D
posted by p3t3 at 2:22 AM on September 11 [9 favorites]


We are never, ever, ever getting back together!

It really feels like having been in an abusive relationship. Fukken narcissist and his enablers.
posted by edithkeeler at 2:39 AM on September 11 [10 favorites]


Some people will leave with the impression that they got him on the baby-murder and pet-cuisine lies, everything else he said must be legit. Thanks ABC!

i can't believe i'm doing this but tbf to abc when you're dealing with a live broadcast of someone who gish gallops with the ferocity of trump you're gonna have a real hard time catching them all, as you pointed out. but what i thought was important is that they checked him on his two favourite lies: post-birth baby murder and pet eating. we know this isn't gonna stop him from repeating this shit, but at least a channel that our boomer parents watch has injected "these things he is saying are lies" into the conversation. whether that will affect the traction of these lies remains to be seen but i think it was smart of abc to be prepared for him to bring up his favourite unhinged conspiracy theories
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 3:03 AM on September 11 [17 favorites]


Does anyone have a take on wtf Trump was doing with the multiple quotes last week of "lost by a whisker" if he is now just claiming it was sarcastic, and back on the Big Lie train? It definitely didn't sound like sarcasm in the clips I heard.

There was no "plan". Trump's entire playbook is to say what he thinks people want to hear in the moment. When he was talking about "losing by a whisker", in that moment he knew he was speaking to people who knew that and knew he had to get more of a voter base out. But when he said "no, that was sarcastic" in the debate, he was thinking "oh shit I got called out, lemme cover my ass". Kind of like when a bully teases you but then if it looks like youre going to tell the teacher they say "I was just kidding, can't you take a joke?"
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 3:37 AM on September 11 [7 favorites]


It's easily spinnable for the knuckle draggers, though: the fake news media won't tell you the truth about the baby murder and the pet eating, but I, as your stalwart strongman, will.
posted by Rykey at 3:38 AM on September 11 [3 favorites]


It's easily spinnable for the knuckle draggers, though

they aren't going to be dissuaded by fact checking, no. i am hoping against hope though that the cumulative effect of calling him a liar and the tantrums he throws in response will make him look weaker in the eyes of some of these supporters at least. we already know they're not wedded to facts; they want strength, and if he appears to be losing that, he's lost

otoh i am no better at predicting or analysing these things than the folks getting paid six figures to make the same conjecture so take it all with a grain of salt
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 3:45 AM on September 11 [3 favorites]


Who would better handle the economy?
Harris: 37% -> 35%
Trump: 53% -> 55%

What on earth about that debate made anyone think he's handled the economy better? He's literally touting things that will make the economy worse.

Thanks to Reagan and 40-some years of post-Reagan propaganda, "Republicans are good for the economy" has like a baked-in 10 point advantage in the American psyche.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:14 AM on September 11 [28 favorites]


I watched it this morning and was delighted and impressed with Kamala Harris's performance. I was also delighted with Trump's numerous meltdowns, his refusal to answer a straight yes/no question (even when the moderator pressed him on it), and his total inability to pass on anything he perceived as a slight to his massive ego.

For the most part, Harris's answers were around the questions asked, and she spoke clearly and coherently. Without exception, Trump immediately went off topic and resorted to his stock responses on tariffs/China/immigration/NATO. If anyone who is undecided is still considering voting for this fucking clown, they need their heads examined.
posted by essexjan at 4:51 AM on September 11 [9 favorites]


I wish the average American was educated enough to realize what a bonkers ass moment it was when he doubled down against the Central Park Five.

I wonder - is anything he said actionable as a slander suit?

Because one of the Central Park Five is now an NYC Councilman and he could probably put something together pretty quick.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 4:51 AM on September 11 [27 favorites]


Letting TFG go off the rails was pretty inspired, frankly. The overwhelming majority of americans have never been to any of his rallies, and never seen him as unfiltered as this. They’ve, at best, only seen tiny snippets of selected highlights. This performance was a de-facto rally performance, and it was likely many americans’ first unfiltered view of how unhinged he is.

I think this ended-up close to exactly what the Harris campaign probably hoped for, and what Trump’s people wanted to avoid.
posted by Thorzdad at 5:07 AM on September 11 [37 favorites]


This thread got me through the night. Thank you to everyone who watched the debate.
posted by RonButNotStupid at 5:28 AM on September 11 [14 favorites]


I didn't have to work today, so I literally stayed up all night to read along. Feeling a little woozy now, but it was worth it! So much better to see real people's reactions in the moment and then see how the press reports it. Thank you, everyone!
posted by taz at 5:48 AM on September 11 [4 favorites]


She is so transparently winning, and so definitively, that it fills me with existential despair to know that tomorrow morning, the headlines will explain to me why this is not what happened and why he actually won..

Okay, so on the one hand, I woke up and the headlines all pretty much agree she won. They are, though, often followed with subheads saying it doesn't matter and won't affect anything.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 5:54 AM on September 11 [9 favorites]


This performance was a de-facto rally performance, and it was likely many americans’ first unfiltered view of how unhinged he is.

I think this ended-up close to exactly what the Harris campaign probably hoped for, and what Trump’s people wanted to avoid.

at this point i'm wondering if the trump team even knows how to avoid that kind of disaster esp when they have laura loomer whisper in his ear on the way to the debate stage. like being coached by a badly coded chatbot that has only read the turner diaries
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 5:59 AM on September 11 [16 favorites]


at this point i'm wondering if the trump team even knows how to avoid that kind of disaster esp when they have laura loomer whisper in his ear on the way to the debate stage. like being coached by a badly coded chatbot that has only read the turner diaries

I believe Trump's takeaway from Biden's winning was that his people held him back and let him down. So, this time, he's surrounded himself with true believers and unflinching sycophants, so there probably aren't too many actual adults in the room who see his crazy-uncle act as a potential negative.
posted by Thorzdad at 6:44 AM on September 11 [6 favorites]


Of course the Republican take on it is that it wasn't fair. Every time Donnie fucks something up, it wasn't his fault; it wasn't fair. Their tagline is "it was three on one!" They're very upset that the moderators fact-checked Trump live (on at least of few of his more egregious fabulations. There's no way you can track all of them in real time.)

The money quote, from Tim Murtaugh, who was communications director for Trump's 2020 campaign: "It was a little outrageous that they would fact-check only one candidate on the fly."

Why didn't they call out Harris's lies? Well... it's like this, guys...
posted by Naberius at 6:45 AM on September 11 [20 favorites]


Thank you thank you, everyone who was willing to watch this and post!
posted by inexorably_forward at 6:51 AM on September 11 [7 favorites]


Michael Steele (the drill baby, drill commentator) really nailed the debate with this summation: "She spanked that ass". He then goes on to give a detailed breakdown of exactly how she spanked that ass.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:57 AM on September 11 [16 favorites]


trump is now saying he doesn't want a second debate with harris and it's because, in characteristic fashion, he won and she lost and she doesn't deserve a second chance:
“I don’t know that I want to do another debate,” he said on Fox. He claimed that Ms. Harris only wanted one because, in his accounting, she had lost Tuesday’s — though her campaign had agreed to do two debates before she took the stage.

“When two fighters fight and one loses, the first thing they do is ask for a debate. Or they ask for a fight. So in this case a debate,” Mr. Trump said. “When a fighter loses, he says: ‘I want a rematch. I want a rematch.’ Always the losing person, the fighter, the debater, they always ask for a rematch.”
bro is scared lmao
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 6:59 AM on September 11 [20 favorites]


> Okay, so on the one hand, I woke up and the headlines all pretty much agree she won. They are, though, often followed with subheads saying it doesn't matter and won't affect anything.

It does seem like you have to do insanely bad in a debate for it to hurt you, and no matter how good you do it doesn't change much. But really that makes sense to me. The mythical undecided voter just really can't exist anymore, right? Even if you're not that familiar with Harris, there's nobody who is a potential voter who can't have already decided how they feel about Trump so it's no surprise that their is little impact from the debate.
posted by dis_integration at 6:59 AM on September 11 [4 favorites]


Central Park Five

Taking my cue from director Ava Duvernay, I now think of them as the Exonerated Five.
posted by Emmy Rae at 7:09 AM on September 11 [23 favorites]


The thing I noticed, reading the /r/politics threads last night (something like 78,000 comments just in the debate threads! - not that I read them all), is that nobody thought Trump did well. Plenty of people thought the moderators were unfair to him; plenty of people thought Kamala Harris did badly; but even those comments started to stall out by halfway through the debate. (For context, /r/politics overwhelmingly leans Democratic, but the fast-moving threads attract a lot of trolly right-wing commentary).

Do I think it's going to change a lot? No, I don't think it's going to change a lot. But I think a few people who were moderately likely to vote for Trump are going to arrive at November 5th and they're not going to be able to dig up enough enthusiasm to make room in their day. And a few might well be enough, in Georgia and Pennsylvania and North Carolina.
posted by Jeanne at 7:13 AM on September 11 [11 favorites]


The mythical undecided voter just really can't exist anymore, right?

What seemed quite clear in the post-debate interviews I watched was that the people saying "Harris did well, but I still need to learn more about her so I'm still leaning Trump" meant "Harris needs to turn white and grow a penis." They don't want to say that on TV for whatever reason, but it was barely subtext.
posted by The Bellman at 7:24 AM on September 11 [46 favorites]


It was like that with the 2020 "undecided voter" panels. They're going to vote for the racist, they just want to pretend to think about it, like it might be a careful decision based on policy distinctions and not a knee jerk reaction based on really hating brown people and LGBT folks.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:27 AM on September 11 [18 favorites]


One of my friends shared a message from a political organizer they know who is often tasked with putting together panels of undecided voters. He said that finding legitimately undecided women was always tough, but it's now nigh-on impossible since Harris entered the race.

They're all set on her now. Even women he has called on multiple times, who were never swayed to either side for anything. All those women are for Harris. The only "undecided" women he can find now are all clearly for one candidate or the other, but would just like to be part of a panel, for whatever reason (wanting to feel important/included, hoping to sway other voters, whatever.)
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:33 AM on September 11 [30 favorites]


I checked with a dude at work who is a self-professed independent and doesn't like either candidate. He thinks Trump is an idiot, but he's not wild about Harris either. I've been a bit surprised by how anyone could think that way, but....at least he acknowledges Trump is a damn idiot too. (I think his vibe is more that the Congress REALLY has the power and the presidency effectively doesn't matter, but he still recognizes Trump as a danger.)

He said he hadn't watched the debate but had heard a couple things he was curious about like "the moderators were kinder to her than to him" or "she had the questions ahead of time" and I was able to carefully nudge a course-correction there ("I think that the thing about the moderators was becuase they fact-checked two completely nuts things he said, and she wasn't nuts so..." "Okay, yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, he's a jerk") and he admitted he'd gotten that from "two idiots who said something on Youtube, so they were probably biased themselves".

I dunno.
posted by EmpressCallipygos at 7:36 AM on September 11 [12 favorites]


Michael McDonald, not the singing one but a political professor in Florida, summed things up perfectly: “Trump’s debate performance would have surprised no one if the media would have actually covered him without the sanewashing.”
posted by azpenguin at 7:42 AM on September 11 [45 favorites]


Harris did two things last night that I think were important and that could carry over to election day:

1. She was presidential. She showed the country that she is up to the task of being the president of the united states. She was on the biggest stage of her career and she was poised, comfortable and in command. That is an important threshold for candidates, and she met it.

2. She punctured Trump's aura of invincibility. Going back ten years, Trump has always been in command in every setting where he's been up against other candidates. That is the basis of his power. He inspired fear and that fear leads to compliance and following. Harris killed the dragon. He's wounded and diminished. That will change how the press covers him, that will change how other Republicans talk about him, and it may even change the confidence the fringes of his base have in him.

"Winning the debate" by itself is a transient thing. But the way she did it could have a lasting impact.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:50 AM on September 11 [46 favorites]


Shares of Trump Media & Technology Group Corp. (parent company of Truth Social) down 16.5%.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:52 AM on September 11 [22 favorites]


That will change how the press covers him

Surely, this.
posted by Melismata at 8:11 AM on September 11 [10 favorites]


I wish the average American was educated enough to realize what a bonkers ass moment it was when he doubled down against the Central Park Five.

He also said she died, which isn’t true and makes him seem even more bloodthirsty at the time, not to mention like a hypocrite given his own rape allegations.
posted by Selena777 at 8:15 AM on September 11 [9 favorites]


Shares of Trump Media & Technology Group Corp. (parent company of Truth Social) down 16.5%.

Somehow still a $3 billion company with only $4 million in total revenue.
posted by clawsoon at 8:16 AM on September 11 [11 favorites]


Winnie the Proust echoes a thought I have been having for a few weeks but have had trouble articulating exactly. It was also inspired by this post.

Harris (and Walz) seem to be the first politicians running for office who don't seem to be afraid of Trump in any way. They treat him the way he deserves to be treated, and while this of course is amazingly motivating to Democrats, I suspect it may have carry over effects on other voters.
posted by wittgenstein at 8:17 AM on September 11 [39 favorites]


The mythical undecided voter just really can't exist anymore, right? Even if you're not that familiar with Harris, there's nobody who is a potential voter who can't have already decided how they feel about Trump so it's no surprise that their is little impact from the debate.

There are literally millions of potential and even regular voters for whom "politics" is a thing where every 4 or maybe two years a bunch of strangers yell at you and put ads all over your TV and social media, and then on a random Tuesday you go to a school gym and fill in little bubbles with a cheap pen and who you fill in those bubbles for is totally "vibes" based on your vague impressions from these ads and whatever news filters into your consciousness over the 30 to 60 days before that Tuesday, and then some of these people win and go somewhere else and do incomprehensible things that may or may not have an affect on you.

I also strongly suspect that at this point some of the undecideds are more undecided if they're going to bother to vote at all rather than who they'll vote for if they do, and people who are aware that they should pay more attention to politics and feel kind of ashamed that they don't and so at any random moment will claim that they're "undecided" rather than admit that they haven't paid any fucking attention since the last time they filled out little bubbles in a school gym.

(Seriously, folks, if you can, go pound the pavement for a campaign and talk to people - it's . . . eye-opening to learn firsthand about how random Joe and Jane Citizen think about voting and politics.)

Which IMO is why Harris's debate was a masterful performance - she constantly baited him on stuff that triggered his insecurities and he took it EVERY fucking time and he got louder and louder and less and less coherent and rantier and rantier and it's gonna generate a bazillion clips of him being angry old man yelling at clouds and lying and saying the weirdest most bizarre shit and a whole bunch of potential voters who haven't thought about Trump at all since January 7 2021 are about to get reminded that he's batshit right when they're just about to maybe start paying a little attention to "politics."
posted by soundguy99 at 8:19 AM on September 11 [53 favorites]


Ctrl-F "Gaza", smh
posted by iamck at 8:22 AM on September 11 [10 favorites]


Which IMO is why Harris's debate was a masterful performance

You wouldn't know it from the mainstream media headlines. They're the ones who are going to kill us.

Right now
WaPo: Harris dominated Trump in the debate, but tight race is still ahead
NYT: Harris and Trump Bet on Their Own Sharply Contrasting Views of America
Boston Globe: The first presidential debate completely upended the race. The second set the course for the election.
posted by Melismata at 8:26 AM on September 11 [4 favorites]


Ctrl-F "Gaza", smh

Good vibes only!
posted by stet at 8:35 AM on September 11 [13 favorites]


it's . . . eye-opening to learn firsthand about how random Joe and Jane Citizen think about voting and politics.


I was chatting with a prolific social media-saavy vegan activist with millions of views, who couldn't understand why people hated Trump so much. I promptly discovered they didn't even know Jan 6 happened. I was gobsmacked. I sent them some video, and suddenly they were as well.
posted by CynicalKnight at 8:59 AM on September 11 [21 favorites]


"I have concepts of a plan."

Wait that's the Cylons in the Galactica reboot
posted by mazola at 9:01 AM on September 11 [18 favorites]


Foreign diplomats react to the debate (Politico):
Foreign officials watching the Philadelphia faceoff weren’t expecting — and didn’t get — many policy specifics from either candidate. But many of those I spoke to said they wanted to see if Harris could stand up to a man who can be a bully, especially toward women, and rattle his political opponents.
...
By the time the debate was over, several foreign officials from both U.S. allies and more neutral countries told me they felt more confident that Harris could handle the tricky personalities she’d encounter while in the world’s most powerful job.

“Composed, authoritative, and presidential,” one European diplomat raved.

“She even managed to laugh at him,” a senior European official marveled.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:05 AM on September 11 [26 favorites]


I thought this was a good line from Jimmy Kimmel:
“Who are we kidding? This election isn’t about the issues,” said Kimmel. “Dick Cheney isn’t voting for Kamala Harris because he agrees with her on the issues. He’s voting for her because there’s a rhinoceros charging, and she has the tranquilizer gun.”
posted by Glinn at 9:06 AM on September 11 [58 favorites]


Who are these people who didn't get policy specifics from Harris? She was super concise and got through a TON of policy. SMH
posted by tiny frying pan at 9:10 AM on September 11 [24 favorites]


The NYT is masturbating over T. Story below the main story: "Pundits Said Harris Won the Debate. Undecided Voters Weren’t So Sure." They really, really hate democracy.
posted by Melismata at 9:13 AM on September 11 [19 favorites]


in my experience, the people who work for newspapers love democracy. the people who own newspapers, on the other hand...
posted by The demon that lives in the air at 9:17 AM on September 11 [20 favorites]


That was definitely Harris vs Embarass last night.
posted by scruss at 9:30 AM on September 11 [5 favorites]


a headline I've been waiting for ...

Jack Smith Should Move Now to Make Trump Give Up Passport: Ex-Prosecutor
posted by philip-random at 9:33 AM on September 11 [22 favorites]


I would like to share some petty takes:
  • Trump issued a ridiculous statement last week on Truth Social that no, Harris is not allowed to use a riser at her podium. It's only fair that the candidates be au natural. But the way the debate was shot with the candidates framed them side by side, she looked much taller than him because she was standing up straight. Mr. Hunchy Slouchy looked like a slob.
  • Trump's makeup looked awful. It was splotchy and uneven, looking like vinyl paint. Harris' makeup on the other hand: utter perfection. It was nearly a no-makeup makeup look, and reminded me of how they styled starlets in the 40s. This "look" is fashionable right now - Linsey Davis was done up practically the same way - which made me wonder if those two shared the same makeup artist.
  • There is a screencap going around of Harris' reaction to Trump calling her father a marxist. In my head cannon, as part of her debate prep, Harris practiced emulating the squint lady meme as a response.

posted by frecklefaerie at 9:39 AM on September 11 [22 favorites]


>>For some reason Trump’s comment about Biden hating Harris struck me as especially ugly, even for Trump — “I’ll give you a little secret: He hates her,” Just writhing in pettiness, lies, and paranoia.

>Every accusation is a confession. He hates Vance already

Wait he was talking about *Biden* hating Harris?? I thought he meant Orban hates Harris, like, it's unhinged but that's the kind of thing Trump thinks is a brag obviously.
posted by MiraK at 9:42 AM on September 11 [8 favorites]


FactCheck.org: FactChecking the Harris-Trump Debate is pretty good on calling out Trump, and pretty nitpicky about Harris.
Harris claimed that Trump “wants to be a dictator on Day 1,” but the former president has said that he was joking when he said he would be a dictator for one day.
The moderators fact-checked him on his baby-murder bullshit, but didn't correct his misidentifying the governor of Virginia as the governor of West Virginia.
posted by kirkaracha at 9:48 AM on September 11 [6 favorites]


WaPo: Harris dominated Trump in the debate, but tight race is still ahead

That's not a lie. The RCP battleground states electoral college projection with "No toss-up states" has Trump ahead 281-257, though that's riding on razor-thin margins. At this point it's still all about turnout of informed voters and random comments that uninformed voters hear from their third cousins.
posted by clawsoon at 9:55 AM on September 11 [9 favorites]


While so much importance is placed on the minority undecided voters, who will contribute toward tipping the election, but not on their own, the debate could encourage the swath of Harris supporters who may have not committed to voting due to other obligations or indifference to making more effort to vote.
posted by waving at 9:57 AM on September 11 [5 favorites]


Energized base FTW!
posted by mazola at 9:59 AM on September 11 [4 favorites]


"In the future, if you're wondering, 'They're eating dogs and cats!' is when I decided to kick your ass."
posted by kirkaracha at 10:06 AM on September 11 [14 favorites]


"Kamala Harris and immigrants were in the closet eating kitties and I saw one of the kitties and kitty looked at me."
posted by downtohisturtles at 10:13 AM on September 11 [27 favorites]




[In Austin Powers's voice] "It's a man-baby..."
posted by AJaffe at 10:35 AM on September 11 [1 favorite]


METAFILTER: I would like to share some petty takes
posted by philip-random at 10:45 AM on September 11 [11 favorites]


Re: undecided voters, likely voters, etc, I'm pulling hope from the wapo article talking to swing state voters. There's a graph that shows:

predebate: 0 definitely Harris, 12 Probably H, 3 Neither, 10 Probably Trump, 0 definitely T
postdebate: 5 definitely Harris, 10 Probably H, 3 Neither, 6 Probably Trump, 0 definitely T

Leaving aside the "gods above, wtf is still undecided????" of it all, what that Likert scale says to me that there are 5 folks who might have stayed home or forgotten or gotten to busy to vote on election day who are now going to find a way to vote for Harris. And there are 4 people who had been thinking they might vote for Trump if they got around to it, but now maybe just won't bother if they get busy or forget or whatever. And nobody moved into the "I gotta check my registration and find my polling place to vote for Trump" side of things.

That kind of movement in swings states is all we need.

(gift article if you want to see their prettier version of the graph, though I'll warn you that reading the voter statements may bring down your high)
posted by jermsplan at 11:26 AM on September 11 [9 favorites]


"Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people, and clearly he is having a difficult time processing that."
I WANT THAT ON A POSTER NOW
Check Etsy tomorrow.

I checked. No poster so far, but a shirt. A few shirts.

I Have A Concept Of A Plan is going well too.
posted by jenfullmoon at 11:28 AM on September 11 [9 favorites]


"she had the questions ahead of time"

I mean, she did, but so could anyone who was paying attention. A debate isn't a pop quiz, or a spelling bee, or a trivia contest. The expectation is that the topics are very predictable.

I in fact did not watch the debate at all, and have no idea (except inasmuch as details have been mentioned here) know what questions were asked, but if I had to guess at them, I would presume the following:
  • A question about an economic plan specifically addressing inflation, e.g "Prices faced by average consumers for groceries/rent/etc. are spiraling out of control. What policies would you enact to keep inflation moderate?"
  • A question about positioning on abortion, e.g. "What reproductive policy would you endorse as President? If a bill establishing a nationwide ban/reinstatement of the Roe status quo/explicit reproductive rights crossed your desk, would you sign it?"
  • A question about foreign policy re Gaza: "Would you describe Israel's actions as genocide? What actions would you take domestically on protestors for/against Palestinian autonomy? Would you limit the arms provided to Israel? What do you see as a desirable end to the conflict, and what role do you see America playing in brining it about?"
  • A question about foreign policy re Ukraine: "What arms would you provide to Ukraine and under what conditions? What do you see as a desirable end to the conflict, and what role do you see America playing in brining it about?"
  • A question about immigration policy: "What policies with regard to immigration do you endorse (with specifics on refugees, for instance), and how would you go about enforcing them?"
  • A question about judicial reform: "What do you see as problems in the judiciary, especially the Supreme Court, and what remedies do you have in mind?"
  • A question for Harris about succession: "How would your administration resemble/differ from Biden's administration?"
  • A question for Trump about peaceful transition: "Do you pledge to honor the result of the election?"
Those are off the top of my head. I'm not any sort of hardcore policy wonk but I'm willing to bet I got most of the actual questions or something substantively like them. Taking a look at a debate transcript, I see, in order, the following:
  • a question about the economy with a focus on the personal,
  • a question particularly directed at Trump about abortion rights (specifically asking about a nationwide ban), with a redirect to asking Harris about her stance on limitations to abortion rights,
  • a question particularly directed at Harris abotu her immigration policy and how it would differ from Biden's.
  • a question about Harris's reversal on fracking and assault weapon buybacks,
  • a quesiton particularly directed at Trump about January 6th, and askign about the integrity of the 2020 election,
  • a question about how to resolve the Psrael/Palestine situation,
  • a question about support of Ukraine,
  • a question directed at Harris about the withdrawl from Afghanistan,
  • a question directed at Trump about Harris's racial identity,
  • a question directed at Turmp about defunding and replacing the ACA, and
  • a question about climate change.
Most of these broadly overlapped pretty heavily with my guesses; the only ones directed at Harris (and for which she would need particular prep) I didn't have on my list were climate change, Afghanistan, and the policy reversals. I'd venture a room full of Harris's handpicked policy and comms people could do a lot better than my vaguely politically informed guesses, and my vaguely politically informed guesses were already pretty close to the mark.
posted by jackbishop at 11:30 AM on September 11 [14 favorites]


Justin Joffe: Much of what pundits and voters identified as Harris’ strengths can be better understood through the lens of executive communications. Here are the tactics that worked.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:37 AM on September 11 [3 favorites]


Nice article. It also links to 9 Body Language Tells From the Presidential Debate.
When Trump accused Harris of being a “Marxist” because of her father’s academic career (he has been described as a “Marxist scholar”) she looked at him with her hand posed on her chin — a look of absolute incredulity. It was a deliberately eye-catching way to silently say, “I cannot even believe what you’re saying.” This was her go-to behavior several times when Trump said something that she perceived as outrageous. I cannot remember another presidential debate in 50 years where we have seen that behavior, and it says something about Harris and her willingness to convey her sentiments directly and overtly, without fear, looking at Trump with laser-like focus.
posted by kirkaracha at 11:55 AM on September 11 [22 favorites]


"Kamala Harris and immigrants were in the closet eating kitties and I saw one of the kitties and kitty looked at me."

how is kitty ate?
posted by chavenet at 1:09 PM on September 11 [2 favorites]


UNDERSTAND UNDERSTAND

UNDERSTAND UNDERSTAND

UNDERSTAND UNDERSTAND

I HAVE CONCEPTS OF A PLAN (unh!)
posted by Rhaomi at 1:38 PM on September 11 [6 favorites]


Politico: Harris Introduces Herself — By Eviscerating Trump
WSJ: Trump Debate Performance Frustrates Republicans
New York Post: CODE RED: Republicans left feeling nervous after ‘extremely disappointing’ Trump-Harris debate: ‘A total f–king hit job’

So there is actually a lot of coverage headlining that Trump cratered. It's just all coming from the right.
posted by rednikki at 1:50 PM on September 11 [17 favorites]


The expectation is that the topics are very predictable.

Yeah, it's like job interviews. I used to write down/categorize them and seriously, everyone asks the same shit about "how do you prioritize?" "can you get to work on time?" "how do you multitask?" I made a document of these things and copied and pasted them into statements of qualifications when applying as well.

You should expect what topics are going to come up for the most part. Kamala Harris PREPARES, dipshit makes shit up and doubles down on it when directly called out.
posted by jenfullmoon at 1:58 PM on September 11 [7 favorites]




"Why don't you put her in charge?!"
posted by abraxasaxarba at 2:11 PM on September 11 [13 favorites]




how is kitty ate?

(zip!) THEY NEED TO DO WAY INSTAIN F....... ORMER PRESIDENTS, WHO ATE THEIR KITTIES, EVEN THOUGH KITTIES CANT FRIGTH BACK
posted by JHarris at 2:38 PM on September 11 [8 favorites]


"Kamala Harris made Donald Trump look silly and small at the 2024 debate" (Vanity Fair, archive.is
He tried to look tough, to fearmonger. But as he spent the night hunched over his podium—his beady eyes glowering, talking loudly about something he saw on TV—he just looked desperate. “Donald Trump was fired by 81 million people,” Harris said at one point. “He’s obviously having trouble processing that.” Trump, of course, had little meaningful to say on policy; at one point, talking about healthcare, the best he could offer was a promise to later reveal “concepts of a plan.” In essence, he just didn’t have anything to offer to an America that is already painfully familiar with his “American carnage” narrative: “We’re a failing nation,” he whined at one point.
posted by box at 2:48 PM on September 11 [10 favorites]


hunched over his podium

*lectern
posted by hanov3r at 2:53 PM on September 11 [13 favorites]


> how is kitty ate?

Like this. [link to video on X]
posted by MiraK at 3:01 PM on September 11 [1 favorite]


Harris claimed that Trump “wants to be a dictator on Day 1,” but the former president has said that he was joking when he said

Bringing it back to Fanfare, every time he claims he's joking on things like this, I see him as the professor from the Dylan's Burger sketch of I Think You Should Leave.
posted by p3t3 at 3:12 PM on September 11 [5 favorites]


Trump is a longtime New Yorker whose views on immigration appeared to harden with the attacks (Washington Post, "Harris, Trump set politics aside at ceremony to commemorate 9/11 attacks"). Trump's been Florida's shame for five years now?

United Nations General Assembly Laughs at Trump's Boast (Sept. 25, 2018)
A brief history of world leaders laughing at Trump (WaPo gift link, Dec. 4, 2019)

NATO world leaders' concerns about Trump (WBUR [NPR Boston] July 11, 2024)
US allies try to 'Trump-proof' Nato - but is that even possible? (BBC, July 12, 2024)
Five takeaways from Donald Trump and Kamala Harris’s US presidential debate (Al Jazeera, Sept. 11, 2024)
posted by Iris Gambol at 3:29 PM on September 11 [5 favorites]


I thought this was a good line from Jimmy Kimmel:
“Who are we kidding? This election isn’t about the issues,” said Kimmel. “Dick Cheney isn’t voting for Kamala Harris because he agrees with her on the issues. He’s voting for her because there’s a rhinoceros charging, and she has the tranquilizer gun.”

Jon Stewart had a better take:
Hey Dick Cheney, FUCK OFF.
posted by adept256 at 3:41 PM on September 11 [18 favorites]


He makes a compelling point!
posted by Songdog at 3:51 PM on September 11 [8 favorites]


because there’s a rhinoceros charging, and she has the tranquilizer gun

Apt choice of animal.
posted by trig at 4:00 PM on September 11 [4 favorites]


"Why don't put her in charge?!"

That's the plan, my dude.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:01 PM on September 11 [9 favorites]


@NoahGarfinkel:
A key point missing in a lot of post debate analysis is that Trump’s claim about immigrants eating pets almost perfectly syncs up to the piano in the Peanuts theme song.
posted by kirkaracha at 4:06 PM on September 11 [15 favorites]


The more I reflect on it, the more I think this debate will be watched and studied for years. Harris was masterful at so many levels. Her words, her gestures, her facial expressions. The whole 90 minutes was a tour de force is dismantling your opponent. I don’t we’ve ever seen anything quite like it.
posted by Winnie the Proust at 4:58 PM on September 11 [12 favorites]


A key point missing in a lot of post debate analysis is that Trump’s claim about immigrants eating pets almost perfectly syncs up to the piano in the Peanuts theme song.

Can somebody with the appropriate skills, if it's not too much trouble, do this and post it pls.
posted by Glinn at 5:06 PM on September 11 [1 favorite]



Can somebody with the appropriate skills, if it's not too much trouble, do this and post it pls.

It is linked to in the post you quoted. Hope this helps!
posted by aubilenon at 5:11 PM on September 11 [3 favorites]


It's in the X link.
posted by kirkaracha at 5:11 PM on September 11 [1 favorite]


OH lol ty
posted by Glinn at 5:12 PM on September 11 [3 favorites]


Al Jazeera: Debate in nuclear-armed former colony fails to reassure global community
Efforts to restore democracy to the United States, a troubled, oil-rich former British colony with a history of political violence, may have suffered a serious setback this week after yet another chaotic presidential debate, some Americanists say.
posted by automatronic at 5:18 PM on September 11 [35 favorites]


It is linked to in the post

I am trying, and failing, to overlay that audio onto a montage of purritos. Hive mind, please hope me!
posted by CynicalKnight at 5:18 PM on September 11 [1 favorite]


“I don't think most Americans are going to be influenced by a billionaire celebrity who is fundamentally disconnected from the interests and problems of most Americans.”

--Senator JD Vance (talking about Taylor Swift)

Oh! Self burn once removed, those are rare.

IE: either TFG is a billionaire celebrity fundamentally blah blah blah OR he isn't a billionaire (but still fundamentally disconnected blah blah blah).
posted by Mitheral at 5:24 PM on September 11 [5 favorites]


THEY NEED TO DO WAY INSTAIN F....... ORMER PRESIDENTS

IMMAGRANANANTS!?!?
posted by GCU Sweet and Full of Grace at 5:25 PM on September 11 [5 favorites]


Vance/Tech Billionaires
posted by Iris Gambol at 5:40 PM on September 11 [1 favorite]


I know you are but what am I?

Truly the most elucidating of campaigns in many a cycle.

Still trying to decide if we've always been in the aggregate this stupid (I mean, despite best efforts we still have local fire departments everywhere because we haven't yet managed to master fire) or if maybe there's something unique about our current Idiocratic selves that elevates the inner 4-year-old to leadership positions so reliably?

I'm definitely continuing to vote for the crafty, warm-hearted five-year-old who believes fire is a snap, though, that's for certain!

Love,

A loud proud two-year-old who likes to pretend he's seven
posted by riverlife at 5:48 PM on September 11 [1 favorite]


I finally realized why the whole exchange seemed so familiar to me.
'Come back, Donald!' said Kamala in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, the Former Guy turn again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the lectern, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. His hand clutched his heavy black sharpie like a claw.

'I did not give you leave to go,' said Kamala sternly. 'I have not finished. You have become a fool, Donald, and yet pitiable.'
posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:04 PM on September 11 [7 favorites]


More telling than any poll: Today, the Feds announced they'll increase security for Jan. 6th in an effort to prevent a Capitol attack repeat. "The decision will give the next electoral count — scheduled for Jan. 6, 2025 — the same level of security accorded to presidential inaugurations and political conventions." It's now a "National Special Security Event"*... and the Secret Service will take responsibility for that security.

*The term “National Special Security Event” means a designated event that, by virtue of its political, economic, social, or religious significance, may be the target of terrorism or other criminal activity. 6 USC § 601(9).
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:28 PM on September 11 [18 favorites]


I'm glad I wasn't the only one who noticed that she successfully compelled him to shake her hand - that was a totally business power move, and it put him immediately off balance. He might have thought he was going to refuse to shake and make her appear unworthy of even being greeted, and instead, she made him look insecure and petty.
posted by stormyteal at 6:39 PM on September 11 [15 favorites]


And there it is

NYTimes headline: "Pundits Said Harris Won the Debate. Undecided Voters Weren’t So Sure."

The sub headline is even better: "Voters said the vice president talked about a sweeping vision to fix the country’s most stubborn problems. But they wanted the fine print."
posted by euphorb at 6:50 PM on September 11 [12 favorites]


Trump rarely looked at Harris last night. Networks showed a split screen with both candidates for most of the debate. (AP) At various points [Harris] looked amused or befuddled by whatever Trump was saying, as if wordlessly saying he was lying. A few times she dramatically put her fingers under her chin, eyes wide, head tilted. Other times she laughed.

Trump sometimes scowled, sometimes smiled curtly. His eyes flashed anger or annoyance, perhaps even boredom at times. He rarely looked at Harris while she spoke, instead pointing his face forward toward the cameras or ABC News moderators.
posted by Iris Gambol at 6:52 PM on September 11 [8 favorites]


NYTimes headline

on the other hand, here's a few grabs from the Drudge Report

LUNTZ: THE NIGHT TRUMP LOST IT ALL...
BECOMES WHAT HE FEARED MOST: LAUGHING STOCK...
RATTLED DON DEMANDS ABC BE SHUT DOWN...
FLIGHT RISK: WILL FEDS SEIZE PASSPORT?
SAYS HE'LL FLEE USA IF HARRIS WINS...
TRUMP'S 911
WORST PERFORMANCE OF CAREER
THE END...
His Media Stock Hits Record Low...
Tanks in Betting Odds...
LABASH: All Over But The Whining?

and even ...

HELL FREEZES OVER: LEWINSKY APPLAUDS DRUDGE?

(link is to her tweet)
posted by philip-random at 7:07 PM on September 11 [8 favorites]


i am glad the sane woman helped make the bad man look bad in public. i am skeptical of putting too much weight on the importance of body language such as: putting one's hand on one's chin or pulling a power-shake move or shimmying one's shoulders with insouciance.

none of it compares to selecting the exact right brooch (or "lapel pin") that will subtly convey the depth of disdain one has for one's interlocutor in a way that will leave them in emotional, spiritual, and temporal shambles.
posted by logicpunk at 7:41 PM on September 11 [5 favorites]


I don't get that reference Winnie the Proust, but I love it regardless.
posted by Windopaene at 7:48 PM on September 11 [4 favorites]


A key point missing in a lot of post debate analysis is that Trump’s claim about immigrants eating pets almost perfectly syncs up to the piano in the Peanuts theme song.

Simpsons rendition
posted by They sucked his brains out! at 7:50 PM on September 11 [7 favorites]


"‘Come back, Saruman!’ said Gandalf in a commanding voice. To the amazement of the others, Saruman turned again, and as if dragged against his will, he came slowly back to the iron rail, leaning on it, breathing hard. His face was lined and shrunken. His hand clutched his heavy black staff like a claw. ‘I did not give you leave to go,’ said Gandalf sternly."
posted by CheeseDigestsAll at 8:24 PM on September 11 [14 favorites]


And there it is

NYTimes headline:

This morning, the top headline was "In Fierce Debate, Harris Baits a Defensive Trump."

And right now the top story is "Trump Says He Had a Great Debate. His Allies Privately Say Otherwise,"

followed by "How Trump Uses Vitriol for Migrants to Sideline Other Issues"

and, below that, "During the debate, Donald Trump used a false charge to attack Kamala Harris for her support of abortion rights."

But, yeah, I agree that spinning up a "voters not so sure" headline from the reactions of a few undecided voters they scrounged together for a panel is Not Good -- and if I recall they even featured it prominently for a while today in the upper-right spot that seems to be for things they think will trend (like, right now, "The No. 1 Breaker in the World Is … Raygun?"). But it's also not at all representative of the main thrust of their coverage on this, lest anyone assume otherwise.
posted by nobody at 9:17 PM on September 11 [10 favorites]


(Oh, and on a lighter note: here are a couple screenshots from last night of Trump making creepy/clownish faces while trying to protect himself from narcissistic injury.)
posted by nobody at 9:24 PM on September 11 [3 favorites]


The only step further beyond that face and closed eyes he could go is to stick his fingers in his ears and be all, "La la la, I can't hear you..."
posted by stormyteal at 9:52 PM on September 11 [2 favorites]


people are bringing back legacy memes, too: "jetzt bleiben im raum: keitel, jodl, krebs, und burgdorf..."
posted by i used to be someone else at 10:05 PM on September 11 [9 favorites]


But it's also not at all representative of the main thrust of their coverage on this, lest anyone assume otherwise.

Cool, but NYT still sucks and is not to be trusted or lauded. They don't need defending, imo.
posted by tiny frying pan at 4:50 AM on September 12 [6 favorites]


And there it is

NYTimes headline: "Pundits Said Harris Won the Debate. Undecided Voters Weren’t So Sure."

I have read elsewhere that one of the NYT's "undecided voter" panel -- the "I need to see more policy details from Kamala Harris guy" -- is a two-time Trump voter.
posted by Gelatin at 5:57 AM on September 12 [9 favorites]


at this point undecided voter should be a new category in the DSM
posted by dis_integration at 6:15 AM on September 12 [53 favorites]


none of it compares to selecting the exact right brooch (or "lapel pin") that will subtly convey the depth of disdain one has

Indeed, Queen Elizabeth left us much too soon

surely this brooch
posted by Emmy Rae at 6:51 AM on September 12 [3 favorites]


You know what? I haven't heard "I'd vote for a woman, but not THAT woman" and I haven't heard the word "schoolmarm" at all.

Is this thanks to the Barbie movie?
posted by Emmy Rae at 6:52 AM on September 12 [11 favorites]


It's thanks to Kamala Harris for being friggin awesome (and hopefully some progress in goddamn society for sure)
posted by tiny frying pan at 6:57 AM on September 12 [6 favorites]


You know what? I haven't heard "I'd vote for a woman, but not THAT woman" and I haven't heard the word "schoolmarm" at all.

There's a few I could introduce you to. They claim to like Tulsi Gabbard or Nikki Haley but Kamala Harris is too grating and has not laid out her policies and why hasn't she done more as VP? But at heart what does "I'd vote for woman but not that one" really mean? When it is just coverage to save face and when is it a real opinion will vary according to the person speaking.
posted by beaning at 7:07 AM on September 12 [3 favorites]


yeah the spectre of concern trolling looms over any discussion about harris unfortunately
posted by Aya Hirano on the Astral Plane at 7:12 AM on September 12 [2 favorites]


I'd vote for a woman, but not a Republican woman.
posted by Faint of Butt at 7:24 AM on September 12 [11 favorites]


Alberto Gonzales
  • US Attorney General under George W. Bush

  • White House Counsel to George W. Bush

  • Texas Supreme Court Justice

  • Secretary of State of Texas

  • Kamala Harris Supporter


    • It feels like a big deal that this isn't a big deal. "Yawn, another one."
    posted by Winnie the Proust at 8:28 AM on September 12 [10 favorites]


    Oh, I've certainly already seen the word 'shrill' being used with regards to Harris.
    posted by Too-Ticky at 8:34 AM on September 12 [1 favorite]


    Y'all, getting W's merry band of war criminals on board isn't a good thing. If I found out Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzales thought I was doing a good job with my mideast policy you'd need to waterboard that information out of me.
    posted by stet at 8:37 AM on September 12 [10 favorites]


    "I'd vote for a woman, but not a Republican woman."

    I'd think real hard about voting for Liz Cheney over a lot of Democrats. Oregon used to have some Republicans worth a look. Not anymore. :(

    /derail
    posted by aleph at 8:41 AM on September 12 [7 favorites]


    Y'all, getting W's merry band of war criminals on board isn't a good thing. If I found out Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzales thought I was doing a good job with my mideast policy you'd need to waterboard that information out of me.

    I think there's an example of bad/evil participants in a liberal democracy versus those who are trying to directly do away with liberal democracy altogether. I think about the liberals/communists/anarchists working together during the Spanish Civil War because they all knew the fascists were worse.
    posted by Lord Chancellor at 8:44 AM on September 12 [14 favorites]


    Yeah. The enemy of my enemy is (not) my friend. But I can work with them.
    posted by aleph at 8:55 AM on September 12 [8 favorites]


    Yes, and the question is whether, at some point, it will break through to the population in general that this isn't the standard team sport tribal election. Will it ever break through to low information voters and possibly even low information Republican voters that we are in a different situation.

    It should send a message to tens of millions of Americans when Dick Palpatine Cheney says he's voting for Harris. It should send a message to those tribal voters that, okay, maybe I can be with my tribe and still vote for Harris. But that message is just not getting through. It's just sort of a curiosity that gets mentioned on the side sometimes by cognoscenti. For the mass of voters, it's still tribal and the tribe and is now Trump and "we don't want them eating poor Fluffy" or whatever the nonsense of the day is.

    Even getting 2 or 3% of lifelong Republicans to cross over would be huge, but it just doesn't seem to be happening at all.
    posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:00 AM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    but NYT still sucks and is not to be trusted or lauded. They don't need defending, imo.

    is it defending or is it clarifying to point out that a blanket dismissal of the NYT (for reasons) feels sloppy? As nobody pointed out, it's just not that simple.
    posted by philip-random at 9:02 AM on September 12 [8 favorites]


    "...but it just doesn't seem to be happening at all."

    No, at this point it's the "True Believers" against (almost) everyone else.

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/True-believer_syndrome

    [snip]
    Examples: Lamar Keene and "Raoul"

    In his book The Psychic Mafia, Keene told of his partner, a psychic medium named "Raoul". Some in their congregation still believed that Raoul was genuine, even after Keene openly admitted that he was a fake. Keene wrote "I knew how easy it was to make people believe a lie, but I didn't expect the same people, confronted with the lie, would choose it over the truth. ... No amount of logic can shatter a faith consciously based on a lie."[1][8]
    posted by aleph at 9:11 AM on September 12 [2 favorites]


    I think about the liberals/communists/anarchists working together during the Spanish Civil War because they all knew the fascists were worse.

    That didn't turn out very well, as I remember. When the rubber hots the road, most of these guys will make peace with fascism before they allow any genuine change in the status quo.
    posted by pattern juggler at 9:19 AM on September 12 [2 favorites]


    I'm not saying to kick them out or fail to use them for propaganda purposes, but don't ever think they have your back.
    posted by pattern juggler at 9:21 AM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    as in "...work with them"
    posted by aleph at 9:24 AM on September 12 [1 favorite]


    It seems to me that the Cheneys and whatnot who are lining up with Harris are not (don't claim to be and never will be) Democrats. What they are, are old school Republicans who want their Party back from the tantrum driven globular cult of grift and ugliness called Trumpism that they foolishly, greedily allowed to take over. After eight years of trying to win things back the old-fashioned way (from within), they have come to realize that ain't going to happen, so ... let's go get under that Big Tent over there, they seem willing to take us on. And as history tells us time and again, life during wartime makes for strange allies. And this is wartime, Trump and his crowd are effectively marauding barbarians ... and so on.
    posted by philip-random at 9:28 AM on September 12 [8 favorites]


    Bet if we tack right to pickup netanyahu's endorsement we can get the support of all the alienated Jan 6th voters too. Franky, I think we'd be welcomed as liberators.

    If the architects of the iraq war think you're doing a bang-up job maybe re-evaluate your policies on the middle east.
    posted by stet at 9:28 AM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    Forget policies at this point. There's only one choice.
    posted by aleph at 9:34 AM on September 12 [4 favorites]


    If the architects of the iraq war think you're doing a bang-up job maybe re-evaluate your policies on the middle east.

    See here's the thing. They don't think that. They don't agree on policy (if you have evidence otherwise, please show me, that would help).

    Opposing TFG does not indicate agreement on everything else.
    posted by mazola at 9:35 AM on September 12 [19 favorites]


    To pick up the likes of Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzales, I would make no concessions: no changes in policy, no alteration in tone, no appointments to positions. But if they want to freely lend their rhetorical weight to the cause, I will not stand in the way, and in fact will position them where they can do us the most benefit and to the adversary the most amount of harm. I will never trust them, never turn my back on them, but any soldier that isn't actively fighting against me in a game of inches such as we have is important, and if they want to volunteer for the front lines, so be it.

    Once we win and are ascendent, we can be more discriminating of allies.
    posted by Lord Chancellor at 9:37 AM on September 12 [13 favorites]


    As nobody pointed out, it's just not that simple.

    nobody would say that
    nobody here is a big Trump fan
    nobody is cooler than me
    posted by Reverend John at 9:39 AM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    confusion is always next
    posted by philip-random at 9:40 AM on September 12 [4 favorites]


    > Ctrl-F "Gaza", smh

    Good vibes only!

    For the record: the debate proper did address Gaza. Harris said she supported a two-state solution and would work towards that, and Trump vomited forth the usual word salad with a pro-Israel nugget of corn somewhere in it.

    This was likely not mentioned in this thread because there was no discernible difference from anything either one has said previously.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 9:42 AM on September 12 [22 favorites]


    is it defending or is it clarifying to point out that a blanket dismissal of the NYT (for reasons) feels sloppy?

    Nah, my reasons are SOLID, dude
    posted by tiny frying pan at 9:46 AM on September 12 [2 favorites]


    Yes, the debate positions on the Israel/Hamas war:

    Harris: Oct 7 was terroristic attack and a tragedy, and Israel has a right to defend itself. However, too many people have died in Gaza now, and the only solution is a ceasefire and a full return of hostages.

    Trump: This would never have happened if I wasn't President.*

    *Trump never articulated a solution to the war, neglecting what he would do now, which mirrors his lack of solutions on most issues. From everything he's put out, he would probably go from doing nothing to perhaps actively shoring up the Netanyahu government/war. I think there is collusion—though perhaps merely understood—that Netanyahu not deliver any peace prior to the election that would enable Biden/Harris to claim a victory in the area. Netanyahu is now directly counting on Trump as a solution to increasing US pressure. But of course, this is merely conjecture.
    posted by Lord Chancellor at 9:48 AM on September 12 [14 favorites]


    Kamala Harris has not made any policy concessions to get the endorsements of Dick Cheney, John Bolton, Alberto Gonzales, or any other high profile Republican. She hasn't negotiated with them. All these endorsers have said that they disagree with her on many or most policy questions.

    This isn't about Kamala being a centrist or forming a coalition government. It is about her respect for institutions and the rule of law. It is about policy enemies agreeing that preserving our constitutional system of government transcends policy.
    posted by Winnie the Proust at 9:50 AM on September 12 [36 favorites]


    To pick up the likes of Dick Cheney and Alberto Gonzales, I would make no concessions: no changes in policy, no alteration in tone, no appointments to positions.

    And I would have thought it's clear that Kamala Harris isn't making any concessions, changes in policy, alteration in tone, or appointments to positions to court these Republicans. They aren't demanding any changes; they are supporting Harris as is because TFG is so much worse.

    And they're giving other Republicans permission to do the same. Given the narrow margins we can expect in swing states, I'll take those votes, thanks.
    posted by Gelatin at 9:53 AM on September 12 [24 favorites]


    Even getting 2 or 3% of lifelong Republicans to cross over would be huge, but it just doesn't seem to be happening at all.

    I have no idea about the percent or anything, and I don't think we ever will know that, even after the election, but high profile career Republicans like Cheney endorsing Harris are real examples of this happening.
    posted by aubilenon at 10:00 AM on September 12 [7 favorites]


    This isn't about Kamala being a centrist or forming a coalition government. It is about her respect for institutions and the rule of law. It is about policy enemies agreeing that preserving our constitutional system of government transcends policy.

    I think it was Stephen Colbert who summed it up thus:

    "Cheney's not supporting Harris because he's turning Democrat. It's because there's a charging rhino, and Harris is holding the tranquilizer gun."

    (Personally, I'm more partial to Jon Stewart's reaction, where he just replayed clips of Terry Jones as Mr. Creosote and then told Cheney to go fuck himself)
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:00 AM on September 12 [7 favorites]


    ... but we'll still take his vote.
    posted by philip-random at 10:06 AM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    "I'd vote for a woman, but not a Republican woman."

    The last time I voted for a Republican, it was Judy Baar Topinka, in 2006. Did I agree with her policy positions? No.

    But her opponent was Rod Blagojevich.

    Sometimes you just have to put policy preferences and party loyalty aside, and vote for the person who is not a malicious idiot.
    posted by OnceUponATime at 10:47 AM on September 12 [11 favorites]


    ... but we'll still take [Cheney's] vote.

    Oh yeah, I just still really REALLY do not like that guy.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 10:55 AM on September 12 [7 favorites]


    Nine times out of ten, I'd rather deal with Lawful Evil than Chaotic Evil. There's just less chance of the whole world being destroyed.
    posted by Winnie the Proust at 11:23 AM on September 12 [7 favorites]


    Um, I don't know what to make of this?

    WaPo: Arizona GOP billboards implore voters to ‘EAT LESS KITTENS’ Arizona’s Republican Party erected about a dozen billboards in the Phoenix area that say “EAT LESS KITTENS” and look similar to Chick-fil-A’s promos.

    "Arizona’s Republican Party announced Tuesday that it had designed about a dozen of the billboards in the Phoenix area in response to false claims shared by some top Republicans that Haitian immigrants in Springfield, Ohio, were eating Americans’ pets. Republican presidential nominee Donald Trump, who plans to visit Arizona on Thursday, amplified those claims at an ABC News debate on Tuesday, despite police telling local news outlets that there was no evidence of anyone eating pets.
    In a news release, the Arizona GOP said the billboards are “a humorous, but sobering reminder of the stakes involved in the fight for secure borders and safe communities.”
    posted by jenfullmoon at 11:24 AM on September 12 [4 favorites]


    Harris: Oct 7 was terroristic attack and a tragedy, and Israel has a right to defend itself. However, too many people have died in Gaza now, and the only solution is a ceasefire and a full return of hostages.

    Trump: This would never have happened if I wasn't President.*

    To be fair they both said more than that. I'm highlighting the salient parts in my opinion:

    Harris also said:
    [...] also understanding that we must chart a course for a two-state solution. And in that solution, there must be security for the Israeli people and Israel and in equal measure for the Palestinians. But the one thing I will assure you always, I will always give Israel the ability to defend itself, in particular as it relates to Iran and any threat that Iran and its proxies pose to Israel. But we must have a two-state solution where we can rebuild Gaza, where the Palestinians have security, self-determination and the dignity they so rightly deserve.
    Trump also said:
    But when she mentions about Israel all of a sudden -- she hates Israel. She wouldn't even meet with Netanyahu when he went to Congress to make a very important speech. She refused to be there because she was at a sorority party of hers. She wanted to go to the sorority party. She hates Israel. If she's president, I believe that Israel will not exist within two years from now. And I've been pretty good at predictions. And I hope I'm wrong about that one. She hates Israel. At the same time in her own way she hates the Arab population because the whole place is going to get blown up, Arabs, Jewish people, Israel. Israel will be gone. It would have never happened. Iran was broke under Donald Trump. Now Iran has $300 billion because they took off all the sanctions that I had. Iran had no money for Hamas or Hezbollah or any of the 28 different spheres of terror. And they are spheres of terror. Horrible terror. They had no money. It was a big story, and you know it. You covered it. Very well, actually. They had no money for terror. They were broke. Now they're a rich nation. And now what they're doing is spreading that money around. Look at what's happening with the Houthis and Yemen. Look at what's going on in the Middle East. This would have never happened. I will get that settled and fast. And I'll get the war with Ukraine and Russia ended. If I'm President-Elect, I'll get it done before even becoming president.
    Full transcript is here.
    posted by trig at 11:28 AM on September 12 [11 favorites]


    Um, I don't know what to make of this?

    WaPo: Arizona GOP billboards implore voters to ‘EAT LESS KITTENS’

    They're trying to goad the last few remaining semi-sane Republicans into having an epiphany.
    posted by Reverend John at 11:39 AM on September 12 [1 favorite]


    Um, I don't know what to make of this?

    Part of the joy bigots like these take in their bigotry is shoving it in other people's faces. They like saying abhorrent things without being censured.

    This is just racist idiots being idiotically racist. No more to it than that.
    posted by pattern juggler at 11:42 AM on September 12 [5 favorites]


    Also...um...eat FEWER kittens, surely? Stupid AND grammatically wrong, fun!
    posted by tiny frying pan at 11:44 AM on September 12 [29 favorites]


    the Arizona GOP said the billboards are “a humorous

    I just feel like they are not using the word humorous the same way I would.
    posted by os tuberoes at 11:46 AM on September 12 [9 favorites]


    I just feel like they are not using the word humorous the same way I would.

    The cruelty is the point.
    posted by Gelatin at 11:49 AM on September 12 [6 favorites]


    jenfullmoon --

    It's a type of blood libel. They're telling a "big lie" in order to demonize/dehumanize an outgroup in order to gain power and justify atrocities. Same as the "post-birth abortion" lies and the "schools are forcing children into gender surgery" lies.

    This is one reason why it's not an exaggeration to label them fascists. It might be incorrect to call them Nazis but only because there are different types of fascists.
    posted by jclarkin at 12:14 PM on September 12 [15 favorites]


    I just want to say that I find a comfort in reading this thread, especially the live reactions at the time. It's soothing to know that things are not nearly as bad as they could have been, or as a part of me feared they would be. Thanks, everyone.
    posted by Alensin at 12:15 PM on September 12 [6 favorites]


    I just don't even get the mechanics of this "humorous" billboard. I just feel like they understand jokes the way chatGPT understands poetry.
    posted by os tuberoes at 12:25 PM on September 12 [6 favorites]


    My theory: they're trying to (a) normalize it, (b) pull the same 'he didn't mean it seriously wink wink' thing as he/they usually do, and (c) take ownership of the narrative, turning it from "oh shit they caught our guy with his pants down" to "we're the cool and edgy guys wink wink!" After all, you never back down or admit weakness. You attack and spin.

    ...that, and they get to associate themselves with cute kittens for the pays-zero-attention voter.
    posted by trig at 12:43 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    Um, I don't know what to make of this?

    Part of it is the Arizona GOP really went off the rails after 2020. Basically they've booted out everyone who isn't the hardest of hardcore MAGA, put a bunch of the fake electors in positions of party leadership, all kinds of weird shit.
    posted by soundguy99 at 1:04 PM on September 12 [6 favorites]


    Like, if there's a state party that I'm least surprised is leaning into this weirdo blood libel 4chan shit, it's Arizona.
    posted by soundguy99 at 1:05 PM on September 12 [5 favorites]


    Well, yeah...

    "Arizona State Senator cheers on rightwing Germans with the Nazi theme song"

    https://boingboing.net/2024/09/03/arizona-state-senator-cheers-on-rightwing-germans-with-the-nazi-theme-song.html
    posted by aleph at 1:09 PM on September 12 [7 favorites]


    Trump: "THERE WILL BE NO THIRD DEBATE!"
    posted by box at 1:18 PM on September 12 [2 favorites]


    Surely he's obviously kidding, I'll go ahead with third debate snack preparations, I'm not a total dunce like everyone else!!
    posted by riverlife at 1:32 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    Kamala Harris was great in the debate. Will that be enough to win? [Bernie Sanders | The Guardian]
    It is important that the vice-president continues to define and expose Trump. But it may not be enough to secure a victory. Voters are hungry for a candidate that will deliver meaningful, material change to their lives.
    posted by mazola at 1:35 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    Voters are hungry for a candidate that will deliver meaningful, material change to their lives.

    Good thing that's what she's offering, while Trump wants us to "go back." We are not going back.
    posted by tiny frying pan at 1:36 PM on September 12 [10 favorites]


    He says he won't today but if Harris uses that to call him a coward I think he'll eventually agree. It's like Marty McFly being called a chicken. He can't help himself.
    posted by downtohisturtles at 1:36 PM on September 12 [4 favorites]


    He says he won't [have another debate] today but if Harris uses that to call him a coward I think he'll eventually agree. It's like Marty McFly being called a chicken. He can't help himself.

    The MSNBC post-debate panel also surprised me by saying they didn't think there should be another debate - but their argument was basically, "Kamala, take the win." Trump wouldn't win anything by having another debate no matter what - but Harris could potentially risk losing ground, and you don't want that.

    They were treating like this being one of those fluke moments in Vegas where you get a modest win - the house is banking on you to keep playing and lose it all back to them, but if you walk away right away, you're one of the rare few who come out ahead.
    posted by EmpressCallipygos at 1:56 PM on September 12 [5 favorites]


    >meaningful, material change

    One of these decades we’ll figure out that this is Congress’ main job
    posted by torokunai at 2:04 PM on September 12 [5 favorites]


    I seriously don't think she'll perform any differently if they debate again. She doesn't either. I love the confidence.
    posted by tiny frying pan at 2:10 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    I agree there's no real advantage for Harris in debating again. She already opened a can of whupass! But it is to her advantage to be seen as ready to debate again.
    posted by tuesdayschild at 2:12 PM on September 12 [10 favorites]


    "I agree there's no real advantage for Harris in debating again..."

    Uh... no.

    I think there's a real good chance she can force him into total meltdown/psychotic breakdown.

    That's worth hoping for.
    posted by aleph at 2:16 PM on September 12 [20 favorites]


    >meaningful, material change

    One of these decades we’ll figure out that this is Congress’ main job

    I know under normal circumstances this is factually true, but it does come off as more than a little condescending to say "the president has no power to affect meaningful change, that's a job of congress" when we're currently in the middle of an election where if Trump wins he will most certainly affect material change by destroying our institutions and ending democracy as we know it.

    While there are definitely differences in the circumstances which prevent someone like Biden from forgiving student loan debt while simultaneously allowing someone like Trump to burn everything to the ground and be completely above the law while doing so, that nuance is lost on a lot of people, and I don't think it's a great look to be invoking Green Lantern Theory while simultaneously trying to convey just how dangerous a moment we're in.
    posted by RonButNotStupid at 2:24 PM on September 12 [2 favorites]


    In their own words…

    The Lincoln Project’s latest ad is just post-debate clips and tweets, mostly from right wing sources.
    posted by TWinbrook8 at 2:24 PM on September 12 [1 favorite]


    …But he has to, deep down, know how bad that went. Which is only going to make him act more insane.

    Oh, he knows. The Donald will never forget, forgive, or stop plotting revenge for a public humiliation like this. Now’s the time to keep an especially close eye on the Donald and his more fanatical followers.
    posted by cenoxo at 2:37 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    Voters are hungry for a candidate that will deliver meaningful, material change to their lives.

    > Good thing that's what she's offering, while Trump wants us to "go back." We are not going back.

    The main thing that scares me about this election is that voters really do tend to vote their pocketbook. More than anything else, and all over the world. Benjamin Franklin talked about "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety," but he should have said "wealth".

    People really do think Trump is strong on the economy, and don't particularly think that about Harris. And when Trump keeps saying America is broken, failing, whatever, that does really speak to people who think "the conditions I live in are shit". In this thread people were boggling at post-debate polls showing that people didn't think Harris came across as strong on the economy, but I'm not surprised: the economy was the very first question, and her answer was both vague ("I imagine and have actually a plan to build what I call an opportunity economy") and too specific, too limited: $6,000 child tax credit, a $50,000 tax deduction to new small businesses. That's it.

    The question she was asked was "do you believe Americans are better off than they were four years ago?" and I don't think she spoke to the people who strongly believe that they're not, and who don't believe that a few small scattered tax credits here and there are enough to fix a sweeping problem. She never said straight out, "Things aren't good enough. I'm not satisfied with how things are." Trump, idiotic as he is, makes it clear that he's not satisfied and talks in sweeping terms with a grandiose vision. ("I'll make our country* the greatest country!")

    I felt the same way in 2016, when Trump was all "everything's broken and I'll save you" and Hillary offered calm, reasonable technocratic solutions. Then again, I don't remember Biden offering a grand vision and he did win. So I hope what Harris says is enough, and I hope her passion about abortion rights helps capture the passion vote. But I think Bernie is right: the Democratic party needs to think really big and talk really big, and has needed to do it for a long time.


    * ...I was searching through the debate transcript for the word "country" trying to find what adjectives Trump used besides "broken" and "failing" (answer: "destroyed"). I noticed something not unrelated to the point above: he used the phrase "this country" and even more so "our country" way more than Harris. This is just what I saw on a first pass, and there are probably some mistakes, but each number below represents an answer where the candidate said "our country". Where there's a number and then another in parens, the" first number is just for "country" in reference to the US, and the number in parens is for "our country".

    Look at how big this difference is:
    Trump
    4, 1(0), 2, 2, 6, 2, 1, 8(5), 5(4), 2(0), 1, 1, 2(1), 1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 3(2), 6(5)

    Harris
    1, 1, 1, 2, 1, 1, 1, 2

    By that count, Trump said "our country" or "this country" etc. 55 times, versus 10 for Harris. Trump said it in 22 questions, versus 8 for Harris.

    I can understand why people get the impression that he loves the country and will fight for it. It's depressing and idiotic that people don't look beneath the surface, but he absolutely talks the big grandiose patriotic talk. I really, really hope Harris starts doing it too. "An opportunity economy for our country", etc. Just in that debate-opening answer on the economy, there were so many places to insert that phrase.
    posted by trig at 3:07 PM on September 12 [9 favorites]


    (Actually it turns out Franklin probably was referring to wealth after all!)
    posted by trig at 3:18 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    I was actually becoming a little irritated with how often Harris said "country" towards the end so I think it might be a mileage may vary situation.
    posted by tiny frying pan at 3:24 PM on September 12 [1 favorite]


    "do you believe Americans are better off than they were four years ago?"

    So 4 yrs ago was essentially Nov 2020, the worst months of COVID. By then, even Gov Abbott in Texas had declared a COVID state of emergency. Prices were still down in an attempt to get people to go out, work from home was still widely available for certain careers, housing hadn't yet gone completely crazy tho the signs were there. So for a lot Biden voters the answer is no because those things have all changed for the worse and what could have been done to help was blocked. Then for a lot of Trump voters, the answer is no because democrats blocked the MAGA camp as best they could. Just 4 yrs ago, feels like a million yrs ago some days.
    posted by beaning at 3:37 PM on September 12 [2 favorites]


    Yeah. And people's memories aren't that accurate on the whole either. It's a vibes question, and her answer should have been "we made things better but it's not enough, I'm not satisfied, I'm going to do much more." There should have been genuine anger on people's behalfs (behalves?) in that answer. It wouldn't just be populist, it would be merited.
    posted by trig at 3:45 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    I felt the same way in 2016, when Trump was all "everything's broken and I'll save you" and Hillary offered calm, reasonable technocratic solutions. Then again, I don't remember Biden offering a grand vision and he did win.

    Two big things I think play into this: decades of smear campaigns, relentless attempts to publicly demonize Hilary Clinton from the right, and Clinton was running against a Trump no one had seen in office before. Anecdotally, my father was a lifelong Republican, and wanted to vote Trump basically 'cause he hated Clinton, and also because he thought it would be funny.

    4 years later, he was a staunch Democrat, ridin' for Biden all the way. He's posting pro-Harris memes on Facebook. What changed? He saw what Trump would do in power. He admits that if he knew what would happen, he would have voted Clinton in a heartbeat.
    posted by mrgoat at 4:23 PM on September 12 [13 favorites]


    "do you believe Americans are better off than they were four years ago?"

    I have toilet paper.
    posted by kirkaracha at 4:37 PM on September 12 [14 favorites]


    mrgoat, I hope there are more of your father than of the people who say "Everyone said Trump would ruin the country, but he was president and it was fine! He could handle to job! The economy was good!" And there've been decades of smear campaigns and relentless attempts to publicly demonize women in general, non-White people in general with special bonus points for Black people, and Democrats in general.

    I think Harris comes off much, much better than Hillary (I found her self-satisfied and contemptuous, and I do not get the same feeling from Harris; yes, misogyny and smearing was a big part of HIllary's handicap, but it wasn't solely that). And I think Harris can win. I think overall she did great in the debate. But this election is way too close for comfort, the stakes are way too high, and - even elections aside - the economy really is truly, deeply fucked up for way too many people and that legitimately calls for politicitians to show how deeply they understand that fact and how strongly they refuse to be satisfied with the way things are. (And to act accordingly.)

    Because for a lot of people, their own financial wellbeing is the thing they're voting for.
    posted by trig at 5:08 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    Which has only been improving under Biden. Inflation is going down. The economy seems to be growing.

    You can only deny the obvious for so long. C'mon American voters, make me proud of you.
    posted by Windopaene at 5:21 PM on September 12 [1 favorite]


    Kamala has done a very good of connecting at a deep, emotional level on the issue of abortion and women's health.

    She has not done a very good job of connecting at a deep, emotional level on the issue of the economy. She has a few economic slogans, like "opportunity economy", and a few headline proposals like help with mortgages and tax relief for startups. But these don't together form any kind of matrix that is an embedded extension of her identity.

    Jedidiah Purdy had a good piece about this in the NYTimes today. I agree with his warning. It really is the economy, stupid. And so far Kamala isn't nailing that.
    posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:36 PM on September 12 [6 favorites]


    " It really is the economy, stupid."

    Not this year.
    posted by aleph at 5:42 PM on September 12 [2 favorites]


    Fascinating piece by Josh Marshall today: Trump's Two Campaigns (gift link). His basic thesis is that there is the chaotic direct expression of Trump's personality (campaign 1), and then there is a professional campaign and messaging operation being run by super PACs in the swing states (campaign 2).

    We saw Campaign 1 on full display in the debate. If that's all there was, Kamala Harris would be in great shape. But Campaign 2 is a separate operation. It is not actually run by Donald Trump. It is much more disciplined and professional, and not subject to the mental decay and chaos that is the hallmark of Campaign 1.

    It's Campaign 2 that makes this a real race. Of course, Harris has a professionally run campaign, too. But it's important to remember there's one on the Trump side.
    posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:45 PM on September 12 [15 favorites]


    Trump: "THERE WILL BE NO THIRD DEBATE!"

    Bawk! Bawk-Bawk-Bawk-Bawk-Bawk-Bawk! Bawk!
    posted by Reverend John at 5:50 PM on September 12 [6 favorites]


    Bawk! Bawk-Bawk-Bawk-Bawk-Bawk-Bawk! Bawk!

    Has anyone on this website ever even seen a chicken?
    posted by aubilenon at 6:14 PM on September 12 [8 favorites]


    Has anyone on this website ever even seen a chicken?

    Obviously. He was right there on stage
    posted by mrgoat at 6:20 PM on September 12 [5 favorites]


    "Has anyone on this website ever even seen a chicken?"

    My Grandmother used to go out and kill one for dinner by grabbing it by the head and spinning it around till it came off. So yeah.
    posted by aleph at 6:22 PM on September 12 [5 favorites]


    I mean, stavros of course?
    posted by riverlife at 6:35 PM on September 12 [13 favorites]


    Chip chip chip cheep cheeeeeep! obv.
    posted by mazola at 6:45 PM on September 12 [2 favorites]


    Text-based chicken impressions that will satisfy aubilenon's sense of authenticity: GO!
    posted by Reverend John at 7:16 PM on September 12 [5 favorites]


    In France, ze chicken, zey say "Cot-cot, Cot-cot-codêêêt". In Philadelphie, zey say "Many people zey are saying I won ze debate 92 to 3, so I don't need anozer round"
    posted by Bigbootay. Tay! Tay! Blam! Aargh... at 7:33 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    Bawk?

    More seriously, I was thinking about Kamala's answer to the first question too, and I came away unsatisfied. My thoughts were similar to Trig, above. Yes, it is objectively better but I know it might not feel like it, and there is so much farther to go.
    posted by Alensin at 8:24 PM on September 12 [3 favorites]


    Jedidiah Purdy had a good piece about this in the NYTimes today

    Thanks for the link, I thought that was good too. Bringing the economy into Harris's existing "freedom" theme and stressing the contrast with economic powerlessness is a really good idea. And I was glad he pointed out the genuine appetite for radical rather than 'tweaking the system' change.
    posted by trig at 1:58 AM on September 13 [1 favorite]


    I can't remember where I saw this now (possibly here) but someone pointed out that Harris's jibe about Trump's crowd sizes came at the end of her answer on immigration and the border - potentially a vulnerable area for her. By tagging on the crowd size remark, she guaranteed that Trump would miss his chance to hit back on immigration and start jabbering about attendance at his rallies instead. Genius!
    posted by Paul Slade at 4:15 AM on September 13 [13 favorites]


    One thing that struck me watching the debate was that Harris turned Trump’s own playbook against him. He is always on the attack and ignores or makes fun of the attacks other make against him. And while his opponents scramble to defend themselves, he moves on to new attacks, smirking all the while.

    It’s clear he didn’t know what do when that tactic was used against himself. Kamala went on the offensive, and rather than defend herself against the firehose gish-gallop of bullshit that always spews from his mouth, just moved on to her next jab, It was beautiful to watch him flounder.

    She mostly met his lies with a laugh or sympathetic look of concern for his mental acuity, then moved on. He obviously doesn’t know how to handle someone who stands up to his bullshit and doesn’t just ignore the attack but rather calls him on it.
    posted by los pantalones del muerte at 7:15 AM on September 13 [14 favorites]


    I think the people who think the 'economy was better under Trump' are misremembering. House prices started increasing before Trump, he did nothing and it just go worse. The stock market has been about equal under the ending years of Obama, Trump, and Biden, and low-end salary gains have outpaced high end salary gains almost the whole period. The strikes and 'fight for $15' is working.

    If I had to guess - that's the reason Trump can play the 'economy card'. His constituents aren't doing as well compared to the low end - they all don't really care too much about employment so they are cool with the 'old school' methods of dealing with it that involve firing a bunch of poor people rather than allowing demand to remain high. Republicans may talk a good game (debatable) , but their constituents are not poor people and his policies are not going to help them. They lean into things that make the things they buy more expensive and more exclusive - that's why they've leaned into NIMBY housing policy and tariffs on overseas products.
    posted by The_Vegetables at 7:32 AM on September 13 [2 favorites]


    Also, if Trump is going to lean into this 'dog and cat' eating thing, then put some ads saying he should be running for dog catcher (animal services) in Springfield IL instead of President to deal with this 'problem'.
    posted by The_Vegetables at 7:35 AM on September 13 [7 favorites]


    The oddest thing to me is that people seem to have forgotten the pandemic. There mobile refrigerator trucks all around the country holding dead bodies. Trump was talking about people injecting bleach to kill the virus. But it’s just all faded into gray. Those were the good old days that MAGA wants to get back to.
    posted by Winnie the Proust at 7:46 AM on September 13 [16 favorites]


    I think the people who think the 'economy was better under Trump' are misremembering.

    Not all of them, but for some of them, yeah. But they believe it sincerely. And there are, truly, a lot of things that have gotten more expensive all around the world, and certainly in the US, and for some people that's very noticeable. Overall economic numbers don't reflect the reality on the ground for everyone.

    TBH I think the 'was it better 4 years ago' question is kind of lousy because 4 years ago, 8 years ago, 12 years ago, definitely 16 years ago - there has always been a ton of room for improvement, and tons of people having a hard-to-extremely-hard time getting by. And housing, healthcare, childcare, and education costs have been swooshing up way past inflation for what feels like forever. There are a lot of people who've had a very long time to feel angry, powerless, neglected, and resentful when it comes to the economy, even when the overall numbers tracked by official metrics seem fine. The mainstream Democratic (and, until recently, Republican) approach has been to say "well, the overall picture is good so we won't be making any big changes." Since Trump, the Republican approach has been to say "the overall picture is a disaster." I think it's one of the reasons so many Trump voters were also attracted to Bernie - both of them ran on radical change. And one of the reasons (among many) that Obama won by such large margins - "Change" and "Hope" were his biggest themes.

    To be clear, I know that a lot of people vote for Trump because of the racism and abortion and queer panic and fascism, and that many of the people who are angry about the economy are much better off than I'll probably ever be. I just wish Democrats as a whole would take more dramatic approaches to the economy, partly because I want them to get elected but even more so because there legitimately are some pretty disastrous economic trends going on and that really does have to change. And most of all - when people get angry and disaffected about their economic chances, the fascism comes out. It's not a perfect correlation, but it's a notable one worldwide. I get so frustrated at left-wing governments that aren't responsive to real economic problems and are then shocked to find so many people voting for the ultra-right.

    I'll bow out now, I feel like I'm making too many comments on this.
    posted by trig at 8:32 AM on September 13 [5 favorites]


    I think it's kind of silly to hold the president (or candidate) too accountable for the economy, especially the price of consumer goods. A lot of it, I would say the vast majority of it, is out of their hands. Look at a chart comparing recent inflation across developed Western style economies- the USA is pretty much right in the middle. The Federal Reserve is supposed to set the prime rate completely independently from the Executive branch, so the president can't control that. What's left? Tax policy, trade deals /policy and stimulus money. (probably a few other things that I'm overlooking) I'm not arguing that that those make no difference, but the president doesn't have a lot of great tools to singlehandedly change the economy in society structured around free market capitalism. I just can't comprehend the "gas prices went up-the president must be doing a bad job" crowd at all. I understand that it would be politically unpalatable for Harris to say "eh, what you gonna do?" and shrug when presented with questions about the economy, but that's pretty close to the truth. Of course the "Trump is a genius entrepreneur and therefore good at finance" folks are going to think that he's better, never mind that he's not a genius entrepreneur and that even a genius entrepreneur probably wouldn't have the macroeconomic skills to be good at managing the entire economy with the very limited toolkit presented to the president.
    posted by Larry David Syndrome at 8:38 AM on September 13 [8 favorites]


    I was half-hoping Harris would wear a sharkskin suit.
    posted by SPrintF at 8:41 AM on September 13 [1 favorite]


    Plus we already had 4 years of Trumpism and it wasn’t all that.

    They did manage to cut taxes in 2018, plus stiff the blue states by radically reducing deductions available to the upper middle class.

    All that is sunsetting soon so expect High Drama there, too.

    No sane person would volunteer to run this booby hatch of a Country,
    posted by torokunai at 9:13 AM on September 13 [2 favorites]


    Meanwhile, the Donald is back to business grifting as usual: Trump plans to launch his sons’ crypto business on Monday, 50 days before Election Day, AP News, Josh Boak, Sep 12 2024:
    WASHINGTON (AP) — Former President Donald Trump plans to deliver remarks next Monday about cryptocurrency and the launch of the company World Liberty Financial, a crypto platform controlled by the Republican nominee’s sons Donald Jr. and Eric.

    His speech will come 50 days before Election Day, an extraordinary use of dwindling campaign time to promote a personal business. The Republican former president has long mixed his political and business interests and marketed sneakers, photo books and Trump-branded Bibles during his 2024 campaign.

    “We’re embracing the future with crypto and leaving the slow and outdated big banks behind,” Trump said in a video posted Thursday to X, the social media site that will also host his address on the subject at 8 p.m. EDT on Monday from his Mar-a-Lago home.

    As part of his presidential campaign, Trump has pledged to turn the United States into the “crypto capital of the planet,” raising red flags that he could use the federal government to help support a business tied to his family.
    He “could”, so no worries: the poor Donald’s gotta raise campaign funds somehow. More details and links in the article.
    posted by cenoxo at 10:54 AM on September 13 [6 favorites]


    the poor Donald’s gotta raise campaign funds somehow

    Just 12 days until we find out which he values more: becoming a real billionaire for once, or not screwing over his Truth Social retail investing fans by dumping his stock at his first opportunity, less than 6 weeks from election day.
    posted by nobody at 11:48 AM on September 13 [2 favorites]


    He just said, "I'm not selling," and it caused it to modestly recover (and I mean modestly), but we'll see how long that lasts. I have a feeling that the stock will be heading towards dismal death in the next couple of weeks.
    posted by Lord Chancellor at 11:58 AM on September 13 [2 favorites]


    I was curious how the debate was getting discussed by the family/friends of QAnonCasualties.
    After last night's debate my mom wanted to talk to me about it, and while she agreed things didn't go well for Trump (lol), she completely believed the pet eating lie. I told her it was bullshit and she was like "but I saw a picture of a guy carrying a goose and police bodycam video of a woman who ate a cat, and there were other posts too!"

    And so I go on to explain that the city officials came out and denied it and even JD Vance himself, the guy who popularized this conspiracy theory, said that it was based on unconfirmed rumors. That seemed to get her to go quiet about it and reconsider but it is just so fucking mind boggling how easy it is for people to believe these things.
    And one of the replies was pretty good:
    I've found that telling a far-righter or Q that "I'm kinda worried because it seems like you're very easily manipulated" after debunking bullshit helps them become a bit more alert and critical.
    posted by spamandkimchi at 12:54 PM on September 13 [17 favorites]


    I think the people who think the 'economy was better under Trump' are misremembering.

    I have read of some with this opinion, who base it on the Covid stimulus checks they received from the government, signed by Trump, himself!

    Trying to remember when other administrations distributed tax-free checks like that, IIRC there were one or two during the W administration? Have these checks ever gone out during a Democratic administration?
    posted by Rash at 1:02 PM on September 13 [4 favorites]


    Cross-posting this comment I just left on the blue, in case it's useful to anyone.

    In case it's relevant to folks, I posted an Ask about supporting the Haitian immigrant community in Ohio. Low number of answers, which I anticipated because it's a small town in a place most MeFites don't live, but the two answers seemed like great places if you wanted to pitch some monetary support in this community's direction.

    Haitian Community Help & Support Center
    According to queensissy, "The Haitian Community Help & Support Center is run by Haitian immigrants for Haitian immigrants," and they also linked to an interesting interview with the person who runs HCHSC.

    Rocking Horse Community Health Center
    Rocking Horse is a community health clinic not specifically serving the Haitian community, but dryad confirmed they work in coalition with orgs supporting Haitian immigrant in Springfield. They're a 501c3 and accept donations.

    Also related/unrelated, for people upthread who confessed unfamiliarity with Taylor Swift's music, here's a Tidal link to a playlist I made from songs mentioned in a now-deleted Ask where someone was basically like, "What am I not getting about Taylor Swift?" I'm mostly a Red-era Taylor Swift person so I enjoy listening to this playlist with songs from albums I've had a harder time connecting with.
    posted by kensington314 at 1:12 PM on September 13 [9 favorites]


    I am boggled by everyone who is saying “the economy is mostly fine, and people are misremembering.“ I have a lot of unemployed friends who weren’t unemployed four years ago. Have you tried looking for a job? As I think was posted on the Blue, most job ads now are fake. There is a reason that the US Economy created 818,000 fewer jobs than originally stated!!!! This year in particular has been awful. Harris’s answers about the economy sucked so badly that it took my enthusiasm for her from 90% to 15%. (And it sure doesn’t help that her debate coach is representing Google in a federal antitrust trial; I am absolutely dreading the potential quid pro quo.) I was so disappointed that I turned off the debate halfway through. I was planning to buy a Harris sign before the debate. I have decided there are better places my hard-earned money can go, such as down ballot races. If you think her answers on the economy were good, or that the economy (as opposed to the stock market) is doing great, then you live in a different bubble than I do.
    posted by rednikki at 3:10 PM on September 13 [7 favorites]




    "Has anyone on this website ever even seen a chicken?"

    I was in a truck with a rodeo world champion, some more kids are in the bed. He asks if I have ever seen a chicken hypnotized. Hearing my no, he starts watching along the highway for a suitable farm. He sees one, we pull over, he goes and talks to the farmer for a few minutes, until the he agrees to let the rodeo man demonstrate on one of his chickens. Everyone gets out of the back and we all watch as he takes a chicken, places it on the ground and draws a line in the dirt out from the chicken. It stays completely still for several minutes.
    The farmer said he’d never seen such a thing.

    I’ve also eaten nuggets.
    posted by funkaspuck at 3:40 PM on September 13 [8 favorites]


    >there is a reason that the US Economy created 818,000 fewer jobs than originally stated!

    "Job growth averaged 174,000 a month in the year that ended in March — a drop of 68,000 a month from the 242,000 jobs that were initially reported."

    https://www.cbsnews.com/news/jobs-report-revision-bls-818000-fewer-jobs-what-it-means

    (so things were still growing, just not as gangbusters as BLS was reporting)

    >This year in particular has been awful.

    the weird thing is this 'vibes' recession isn't showing up in initial unemployment claims.

    Here's covered employment / continued claims

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tJoz, showing there's 80 people working for each person frozen out.

    Now, that's not as good as the 90:1 we reached in 2019 or even 100+:1 right when the economy reopened fully in 2022 and big inflation was the order of the day.

    But it's a lot better than any other time period on this chart!

    We can't expect massive monthly job growth from here since demographically we're running out of people.

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tJoP compares current employment (blue) vs full employment of everyone age 16+ (red) and everyone 15-64 (green), showing overall employment's never been better, either.

    Skewing the good number tho is that we've got ~14M people age 65+ still working: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tJpg (purple, right axis) . . . so GenY and Z still have to wait for the boomers to fully leave the workforce, but that will happen this decade!

    The Fed has been running a relatively restrictive interest rate environment for the past two years:

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tJpt

    roughly matching Clinton's and Bush's 2nd terms. As rates drop in 2025 that should free up some household buying power to bounce away from the near-recessionary regime we've been in for the past year or so.

    Manufacturing and Information: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tJpD have been dead sectors since 2000, so if you have a job in those fields good on you but you're kinda lucky I guess.
    posted by torokunai at 5:37 PM on September 13 [5 favorites]


    "her debate coach is representing Google in a federal antitrust trial"

    Karen Dunn has trained Democratic presidential and vice presidential candidates for debates in every election since 2008. Yes, Dunn's a top Washington lawyer who represents tech firms; she also represented the victims of the "Unite The Right" rally in Charlottesville. (There was a documentary about the lawsuit last year.)
    posted by Iris Gambol at 5:49 PM on September 13 [11 favorites]




    > He just said, "I'm not selling," and it caused it to modestly recover (and I mean modestly), but we'll see how long that lasts. I have a feeling that the stock will be heading towards dismal death in the next couple of weeks.
    I'm no financial analyst and everyone should take what I say with a huge grain of salt.

    That said, I suspect that the Trump Media corporation is basically bust. I wouldn't be surprised if it turned out to be insolvent in the near future.

    Using the Merton Model we can think of a limited-liability company's stocks as call options on the company's underlying assets struck at the price of its debt. That is, the stocks are documents granting the holders the right to buy everything that makes for the company at the price of its total debt, at some indefinite time in the future.

    Seen this way the stocks of an insolvent company resemble options that are deeply out of the money. The stocks grant you the option to buy something at a price exceeding its net value. The company's books may present a positive balance, but market participants tend to "see through" the accounting tricks (or simply discount for them based on what they know) and price the company as if it were openly insolvent or about to become so.

    In most pricing models those stocks are not worthless, though. Their value is pure time-value representing what the holders may gain if the company somehow becomes a lot better in the future. Of course it may also go a lot worse, but in that case the stockholders are simply wiped out without assuming further liabilities.

    So the stocks are basically lotteries. You lose up to the money you paid for the lottery ticket if you didn't win. You gain heaven knowns how much in case you did win. A lottery ticket is an instrument to speculate on the result of random sampling based on the rules of the game. A stock of a bust company is an instrument to speculate on pure volatility. The higher the expected volatility, the more you pay for the tickets to this game.

    A hypothetical example would be for the investors to expect that Trump Media is really going bust but Trump is going to stiff the creditors (maybe locking them up) if he becomes the president. Another example would be for his Chinese and Russian sugar daddies to bail him out no matter the election result (because it's in there interests to have Trump carry on sabotaging of democracy). The price of the DJT stock is the money you'd pay for the sum of opportunities like these.

    Seen this way there's little doubt nobody buying the DJT stock is banking on their retirement money on it. The money they put in DJT is money they can afford to lose in a casino (whose entrance fee fluctuates based on market conditions).
    posted by runcifex at 7:48 PM on September 13 [2 favorites]


    They did manage to cut taxes in 2018, plus stiff the blue states by radically reducing deductions available to the upper middle class.

    The law of unintended consequences may come into play here. My husband and I are in exactly this bracket so this had a pretty big effect on us. We were lucky enough to be able to move, find new jobs, etc. So we moved … to Georgia. (From California.)

    So at first my thinking process was - this is terrible! They are intentionally trying to punish California! That’s terrible

    But then I re-thought my comment. We moved. To Georgia. And brought our blue votes with us. And are talking to our family and friends that are a little more to the right. And donating. And volunteering…

    All that… to Georgia. 🍑💙
    posted by susiswimmer at 8:04 PM on September 13 [13 favorites]


    https://www.mcsweeneys.net/articles/the-one-with-the-tackle-and-the-bait
    posted by signal at 7:13 PM on September 13 [1 favorite −] Favorite added! [Flagged]


    Oh, that was excellent. Thank you.
    posted by The otter lady at 8:47 PM on September 13 [2 favorites]


    Trump might not be selling his shares, but that doesn't stop his shell companies from doing so. This is the variety of financial shenanigans/turpitude for which he was made a convicted felon, in the first place. If he wasn't running for president, he'd probably be just another soon-to-be-convicted pyramid schemer.
    posted by They sucked his brains out! at 8:48 PM on September 13 [2 favorites]


    the weird thing is this 'vibes' recession isn't showing up in initial unemployment claims.

    People are doing so badly they are no longer eligible for unemployment anymore. I know a lot of people who have been out of real work for *years*. And as has been said before: rent is up, energy and food costs are up. And some of these things are in fact due to policy choices of the president *even if those policy choices were necessary*, and they haven’t been mitigated.
    posted by corb at 12:38 AM on September 14 [10 favorites]


    What Corb said. In addition, if you are a freelancer or gig economy worker and that work dried up, you are unlikely to show in unemployment measurements. In most states it’s very difficult for someone self-employed to get unemployment.

    As the Washington Post reported a few years back, unemployment statistics do not capture all unemployed people, for a wide variety of reasons. And according to Pew, only 29% of unemployed people get unemployment benefits.

    And finally, responding to my statement of “lots of people I know are unemployed” with stats that say “no, employment is great!” implies either that I am a liar or that the people I know who are unemployed are just lazy and don’t want to work. Either way, it is not doing anything to improve my view on Harris’s response on the economy.
    posted by rednikki at 5:38 AM on September 14 [4 favorites]


    >And as has been said before: rent is up, energy and food costs are up.

    yeah in all my charts I missed the most important one showing rents increasing faster than wages since 2020. It's gotten so bad everyone believes me without me having to dig it up . . .

    as for wider unemployment, that's captured In the U-6 rate;

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tK3X

    is U-6 x people age 15 - 64, giving us the count of people economically unhappy, which is up +2M from 14M to 16M over the past 2 years. This has been Fed policy since the general accepted wisdom was that the super-tight labor market of late 2022 was causing all that bad bad inflation (I don't think that's entirely true but it didn't help).

    https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tK4a is the same graph as a rough % people eligible to vote (age 16+), 6%. That's not 'it's the economy, stupid' territory, but it does match 2000. Romney was such a piss-poor candidate that he could win election with this rate 2X what it is now.

    They didn't make that mistake with Trump in 2016!

    as for gas prices: https://fred.stlouisfed.org/graph/?g=1tK4Z shows the price shock of 2021-22 did introduce a bolus of inflation similar to the 1973-74 OPEC boycott (over the USA supplying Israel during the Yom Kippur war) and the late 70s Iranian supply shock.

    We can go on about this all day but without the House and Senate in some semblance of (D) control there's nothing this administration can do about economic policy. They'll be lucky to be able to get this Congress to keep the lights on.
    posted by torokunai at 7:37 AM on September 14 [4 favorites]


    And finally, responding to my statement of “lots of people I know are unemployed” with stats that say “no, employment is great!” implies either that I am a liar or that the people I know who are unemployed are just lazy and don’t want to work.

    Not really? It could just mean that employment is going well for some groups but not for others. But I think people fall back to statistics because there isn't really any way to engage with "lots of people I know are unemployed" from a stranger on the internet, because odds are that two strangers on the internet don't know the same people, so we have no way to verify that statement or dig into the details of where the problems are and what a policy solution would look like. With statistics there is at least some shared ground that we can base our arguments on.

    I was unable to find steady work in a previous full-employment period (late 90s) and I can report that it fucking sucks, and that knowing that the numbers are great just makes it worse. And at risk of stating the obvious, the fact that gig work is even a thing -- that people in large numbers are opting for unreliable work that often pencils out to less than minimum wage -- should be a strong indicator that all is not well in Jobland.

    In conclusion, I would like to hear more details from Harris about this "opportunity economy."
    posted by Not A Thing at 8:30 AM on September 14 [5 favorites]


    we have no way to verify that statement or dig into the details of where the problems are and what a policy solution would look like. With statistics there is at least some shared ground that we can base our arguments on

    The problem with statistics is: who does the measuring, what are they trying to measure, and what are their interests?

    Current American employment and economic statistics are largely based in measuring how the money moves around and whether businesses have enough employees to function without having to pay them what they consider too high wages. How high are the profits and what is the return on investment? They are not interested in measuring what is the financial anxiety of the American populace or how many hours they would need to work to live a comfortable life and how available those hours or work are to them, because the people who pay for the analysis are not fundamentally interested in such things.

    But it is a mistake to think that we cannot do social and economic and political policy analysis without quantitative data. In fact, as a former political science major, god help me, I can tell you that there's an entire area of qualitative analysis based on exactly those 'unverifiable' details of fieldwork, interviewing, and case studies - people reporting what they see and experience in their lives and the lives of others. Many policy solutions can be built on exactly those details.

    One starting place would be to assume that no one here on this site is lying, because why would we? And with that starting point, we can dig into the details by asking questions. The people I know who are struggling with jobs are largely people who are what I'll call mid-skilled - people who trained for intellectual or service labor, and are having difficulty securing it as those fields drop jobs or portion out what would normally be entry level jobs to AI or overseas. In addition, I think that what I will call 'hypersupervision' and Taylorism have made fields more inaccessible to people with psychological disabilities.

    For example, there used to be a robust employment field of call center labor, which admittedly sucked, but was pretty reliable sedentary work that could be performed by someone with fairly minimal supervision and low physical exertion. Now a good portion of that work is performed by AI phone trees, a portion of that work is performed in overseas call centers, and there are so many people competing for the few jobs that exist, that those jobs are even shittier than they used to be, with computerized metrics for performance. Similarly, warehouse labor and long haul driving and delivering used to be able to be performed by people who were physically fit and didn't necessarily work well with others - now, with the computerized metrics and hyper supervision, that is no longer the case. We've seen that with computerized delivery tracking, now delivery drivers are fearing taking bathroom breaks and being disciplined for singing along to music in their cars. The enshittification of work means people can keep their jobs less long and makes everything more precarious.

    Some possible policy solutions exist, but they would cut into the profits of capital, and so they are not going to get proposed under the current donor model of financing campaigns. For example, laws could be passed stating that employment contracts cannot automatically include consent to surveillance, or that surveillance footage could be used only for things like loss prevention/safety and security and not for employment assessment. Laws could be passed against hot-shift scheduling, or re-evaluating what made someone a full-time employee, or requiring call lines to have an option to get to a human operator. Some of this stuff could be so wildly popular that if Republicans tried to block it it would be political suicide. (A 'press 0 if you don't want to talk to robots anymore' required option, for example, would play pretty well in Peoria).
    posted by corb at 9:11 AM on September 14 [15 favorites]


    The McSweeney's debate recap that signal posted above has some true gems. Content warning for body horror in excerpts below:
    His eyes, small black raisins nestled between pink caterpillar lids, shrink slightly further back into his skull. Harris then accuses Trump of wanting to implement Project 2025, a right-wing blueprint for the next Republican president. This causes Trump’s mouth and neck to frown simultaneously.

    ...Davis continues, “Would you veto a national abortion ban?” Trump’s eyes narrow further, creating a black void where the raisin eyes were, small circles of unseeing antimatter in an orange-tinted sea.

    ...Trump responds, “You know Viktor Orban? Very smart guy, great guy, he loves me, says I could be just like him when I take over and oust all rivals.” The nearly microscopic black holes where his eyes once were widen for a brief second, sucking in joy from anyone still capable of feeling it within a radius of one Wawa.
    posted by spamandkimchi at 9:12 AM on September 14 [3 favorites]


    yes, corb, you nailed it with that comment. Your basic options now for a decent job in this 'conomy are government, a small family-run business (good luck with that) or GTFO.

    Manufacturing? Fat chance thanks to "global supply chains" and wages elsewhere missing a zero. IT? Stagnant since IT is all about doing more with less.

    And yes, the Fed and Congress dropped a $20k per capita money bomb on the population 2020-21 but all that money was quickly beaten out of the lower 90% of the 'conomy.

    https://www.marketwatch.com/story/private-equity-firms-build-up-record-2-59-trillion-in-dry-powder-or-capital-on-the-sidelines-3ecfb982

    Congress does have a role in the national 'conomy via the Interstate Commerce clause . . . to establish floors to mitigate the race-to-the-bottom dynamics and market failures we are seeing everywhere now.

    This is truly a Party-level thing, and the Democrats just don't have the strength of institutions that the well-funded right has with Heritage (cough Project 2025) and the dozens of other bullshit factories paid to put their policy papers out.

    (I can find only one voice on my side I can rely on, Dean Baker's CEPR.)
    posted by torokunai at 10:37 AM on September 14 [3 favorites]


    The thing that gets me about the"vibe-cession" is how big majorities of people in polls sayt economy is doing badly, but when asked to rate their own personal financial situation most people say they're doing okay. Response bias? People embarrassed to admit they're struggling? Maybe, but it does suggest a sizeable perception gap between how the economy is actually doing and how people say it is. (See also: the noise caused by most Republicans flipping a switch literally overnight between "ECONOMY AWESOME" and "ECONOMY TERRIBLE" depending on who's in office.)
    posted by Rhaomi at 4:58 PM on September 14 [3 favorites]


    It's a really bad look to tell people, "don't trust your lived experience. Trust my statistics. The economy is doing well."

    The economy may be doing well by some measures. And the country has gotten so tribal that many people will never admit "the economy is doing well" when the other party controls the White House, even if they personally are doing well. So there's a permanent negative bias built into the question at this point.

    But it is also true that life is really hard for a lot of people. It can be really hard to find work. Rent and housing is getting really expensive all over the country. Medical costs are still going up and the complexity of the system is increasing as insurers try to ratchet down payments.

    On top of all this, we built up the social safety net during Covid, and then pulled 90% of that away from people. So the government eased the pressure (phew relief) and then pulled the plug and let all the pressure back in (yikes, I'm dying!).

    I hate "the opportunity economy". Supporting entrepreneurs helps the tiniest sliver of Americans. I was much more impressed by Kamala's visit to Wilkes-Barre, as described in this NYTimes article:
    “For far too long our nation has encouraged only one path to success, a four-year college degree,” Ms. Harris said. “Our nation needs to recognize the value of other paths, additional paths such as apprenticeships and technical programs. So as president, I will get rid of the unnecessary degree requirements for federal jobs, to increase jobs for folks without a four-year degree, understanding that requiring a certain degree does not necessarily talk about one’s skills. And I will challenge the private sector to do the same.”
    That story was from yesterday. Today's story from Wilkes-Barre goes into more detail on how people are struggling
    Ms. Johnson works part-time for a school-bus company, as an aide for special-needs children. It is a job she finds fulfilling and meaningful — she loves it when former students recognize her around town — but it does not pay well. She makes just above minimum wage, which in Pennsylvania is $7.25 an hour, the federal base line.

    About eight months ago, Ms. Johnson said, her landlord raised her rent from $675 to $1,000 a month. High grocery prices mean she buys chicken, rather than beef, and drinks water, rather than soda. She has considered taking on a second job to make ends meet.

    So far, she has not been convinced that Ms. Harris, whom she sees as a liberal former prosecutor from a big city, will help.
    So yeah, things may be good for some people. Maybe for a lot of people. But there are also a lot of people hurting from changes over the last few years.
    posted by Winnie the Proust at 5:35 PM on September 14 [6 favorites]


    But can any "economic policy" that would help ever be able to pass as legislation? Late-stage capitalism has grown it's roots very deep...

    We can't pass most legislation that will help people, because of "SOCIALISM" or some shit.

    But let's beat the dictator first, try to defeat the minions. and then maybe we can get some things done.
    posted by Windopaene at 6:09 PM on September 14 [3 favorites]


    The expanded child tax credit passed made it through Congress and lifted millions of kids out of poverty. Let's start with that.
    posted by Winnie the Proust at 6:11 PM on September 14 [7 favorites]


    > her landlord raised her rent from $675 to $1,000

    Boy sure is a mystery why money is tight for working people on one hand, yet rich people feel like it’s a new golden age,

    How can we ever understand this
    posted by torokunai at 11:58 PM on September 14 [13 favorites]


    > how big majorities of people in polls sayt economy is doing badly, but when asked to rate their own personal financial situation most people say they're doing okay

    Not one Trump voter will admit the Biden economy is ok for them
    posted by torokunai at 12:00 AM on September 15 [5 favorites]


    big majorities of people in polls sayt economy is doing badly, but when asked to rate their own personal financial situation most people say they're doing okay. Response bias? People embarrassed to admit they're struggling? Maybe, but it does suggest a sizeable perception gap between how the economy is actually doing and how people say it is.

    This is because you adjust your answers to everyone else.

    I took my partner and their kids out for their birthday today, and my partner first shifted a dinner to a lunch, shifted the restaurant from a steak joint to a Applebees equivalent, and then tried to manipulate the ordering such that we all ordered the cheap things that could be shared. It made me think about how ten or fifteen years ago, when I took them and others out, everyone could cheerfully order a full meal at a steakhouse for a special occasion without having to worry they would be bankrupting me. I am demonstrably worse off than I was ten years ago, as is my partner.

    But yet, we are doing better than others, in that we always have enough to eat and even if we are living check to check, we don’t have to worry about rent because of having a mortgage. So I would answer that I’m doing okay, because I know people doing so. much. worse. But that doesn’t mean that things are good out there. I no longer feel secure in employment the way I felt was possible ten or fifteen years ago. But I have disability, so I don’t think I’ll become homeless. And that’s my new standard. Not will I live comfortably, but will I not starve to death or become homeless.
    posted by corb at 12:05 AM on September 15 [7 favorites]


    When a survey asks me how the economy is doing, I say it's bad and getting worse, because surveys never tell me what metric to judge the economy on, and I judge the economy based on wealth inequality. The bigger the difference between the wealthiest and the poorest, the worse the economy.
    posted by Faint of Butt at 5:47 AM on September 15 [9 favorites]


    I did a bike ride in rural Wisconsin last weekend, and noted the campaign signs; one of the GOP ones was, simply, "Had Enough Already?" The number of questions raised by that sign--what they'd had enough of, whether that could be laid at the feet of the current administration, the likelihood that TFG would do anything about the problems or actually make them worse, etc.--were left unanswered, probably intentionally.
    posted by Halloween Jack at 12:18 PM on September 15 [2 favorites]


    "Had Enough Already?"

    The Call to Rage...
    posted by aleph at 12:23 PM on September 15 [3 favorites]


    the fact that this couch-fucking nazi is still in congress after admitting just making up shit on live tv is infuriating.
    posted by i used to be someone else at 12:27 PM on September 15 [6 favorites]


    The most infuriating part of that, for me, is that just making shit up on live TV works.
    posted by flabdablet at 1:01 PM on September 15 [5 favorites]


    "The most infuriating part of that..."

    Lies work? Doesn't seem surprising to me.

    What's so special about doing it on live TV? Other than it gets to reach a lot more people.

    You seem to be saying there has to be fact checking at the point of the lie. Good luck.
    posted by aleph at 1:08 PM on September 15 [1 favorite]


    No it's surprising. It's like hearing Trump or Vance call a black person the N word and going "A white person calling a black person the N word? Unsurprising"

    No, it's infuriating and surprising. Just because you know it happens doesn't make it sting any less.

    Like I meet white people all the time I'm pretty sure have called black people the N word. But if they say it in my presence I'm not gonna go "oh yeah, I figured you used that word from time to time" and say it isn't surprising, and not get mad.

    I feel like we need to acknowledge all the ridiculous, outrageous and legitimately infuriating things they do, when they do them. Because they should be getting ridiculed for doing and saying what they're doing and saying. There should be outrage. You should be infuriated. So yes, I agree that it is infuriating and I was mad this morning watching that asshole say that.
    posted by cashman at 1:47 PM on September 15 [15 favorites]


    "I feel like we need to acknowledge all the ridiculous, outrageous and legitimately infuriating things they do..."

    Good.

    Do you now how long I've heard the N word in (what seems) my very long life? "N-word" for most of my childhood, then "Colored person", "African-American", then (finally) "Black", with the "N-word" just hanging around if you wanted to be deliberately insulting. How many *decades* do you think that took? And it *still* isn't there.

    Good. Start now.
    posted by aleph at 2:00 PM on September 15 [2 favorites]


    I'm not even sure what you're saying in your latest reply. I'm not going to start shrugging off the insane things they do, sorry if that's what you're suggesting. And if you're a black person saying you're shrugging off getting called the N word then you do you but that will never be me.
    posted by cashman at 4:34 PM on September 15 [2 favorites]


    Sorry for the confusion. What you said, please do.
    posted by aleph at 9:40 PM on September 15 [2 favorites]


    It's a really bad look to tell people, "don't trust your lived experience. Trust my statistics. The economy is doing well."

    That's why we invented stats in the first place. For every anecdote that you can come up with that 'everything is terrible', I can come up with one saying my kid's public school is asking parents for money to take them to on lavish international vacations with their class, or that music class requires an instrument that costs $3k and private lessons, and that people pay it. Or that hotels in BFE cost $200 a night and you have to book months in advance. Or that expensive car sales are basically through the roof.

    For everyone saying that 'all income increases gets sucked up by landlords', only about 33% of the US population even rents.
    posted by The_Vegetables at 8:03 AM on September 16 [2 favorites]


    As a renter I'm so relieved to learn that. Economy fixed!
    posted by kensington314 at 10:33 AM on September 16 [6 favorites]


    I haven't seen anyone mention the point that a lot of the people who are hurting now are struggling to find part-time and gig work. They'd (most) love more but that's been what they've been living on. And *who* made the expansion of that type work for the last decade(?)? *Who* struggles daily (and has had great success for how many years?) in weakening labor guardrails like minimum wage and such (which the gig economy certainly *can* do)?

    Of course not. They hurt now.
    posted by aleph at 11:29 AM on September 16 [3 favorites]


    only about 33% of the US population even rents

    33% of the total population is over 100 million people (and I assume the remaining 66% includes the people who can't even afford to rent).

    Stats are useful, but they can obscure the real extent of things ("only" 33%) and neglect to measure various things that do matter.
    posted by trig at 11:45 AM on September 16 [4 favorites]


    My father would say "Figures don't lie but liars sure can figure!"
    posted by Rash at 5:49 PM on September 16 [6 favorites]


    I for one am glad to know I'm doing so well. Now can one of you billionaires pay this fucking hospital bill for me? I'd appreciate it, lol.
    posted by kittens for breakfast at 6:17 PM on September 16 [6 favorites]


    Post Debate Meltdown - Fox News Blames the Refs (Decoding Fox News substack)
    The network transitioned from denial to anger regarding Trump’s poor debate performance over the course of 72 hours. By Friday evening Sean Hannity implied his audience would boycott Disney theme parks and that ABC was part of a deep state plot to take down Donald J. Trump.
    posted by box at 2:19 PM on September 17 [2 favorites]


    Sean Hannity implied his audience would boycott Disney theme parks

    So shorter lines?
    posted by trig at 2:26 PM on September 17 [8 favorites]


    For every anecdote that you can come up with that 'everything is terrible', I can come up with one saying my kid's public school is asking parents for money to take them to on lavish international vacations with their class, or that music class requires an instrument that costs $3k and private lessons, and that people pay it. Or that hotels in BFE cost $200 a night and you have to book months in advance. Or that expensive car sales are basically through the roof.

    These things aren't in contradiction, though, because of income inequality. When we say "everything is terrible", we are saying that people here in America are living in desperate poverty, that people are setting up shantytowns next to our highways and grocery stores. The fact that some people are taking lavish international vacations or paying for private lessons and musical instruments doesn't mean that other people aren't doing badly - and it doesn't even mean those people are doing well.

    People who are desperate to avoid their children falling down are often taking out loans. I got contacted by my daughter to pay some of her college tuition that she can't afford anymore; I dipped into my savings to pay it. "But you have savings", you say. Ah, but how do I have that savings? Because I took out a loan at 30% interest, knowing that I would need a large chunk of cash later this year. As an educated woman, why would I ever take out a loan at 30% interest? Didn't I know that was a bad idea? Oh yeah, definitely. But no one else would lend me money at better terms during my fucking divorce. If there was a law preventing that company from lending me money at those shitty terms, then I would have no one willing to lend me money at all, and I would be fucked, and my daughter would be thrown out of school in her last year of college and would never get her degree. And I'm a military veteran with a pension in fucking law school. If I'm struggling like this, I can only assume other people are beyond fucked.
    posted by corb at 2:52 PM on September 17 [3 favorites]


    Sean Hannity implied his audience would boycott Disney theme parks

    So shorter lines?

    You probably wouldn't even notice. On a day there's no presidential debate, Hannity's viewership is usually less than three million (don't get me wrong, his show is very popular, there just aren't that many people watching cable news), less than one percent of the US population.

    (And I can only presume that some of them don't get as many invites to family events as they used to.)
    posted by box at 3:51 PM on September 17


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