The Lord of the Rings: The Rings of Power: Shadow and Flame
October 9, 2024 6:59 AM - Season 2, Episode 8 - Subscribe
Durin the Younger confronts Durin the Elder, while a neighbor downstairs gets increasingly angry about the mining noise. The confrontation between the Elves and Sauron come to a head at Eregion, while Numenor continues a shift toward a different path envisioned by Miriel.
I liked the season.... but it really doesn't have anything to do with the spirit of Lord of the Rings that Tolkien created.
I just view it as elaborate fan fic.
posted by Pendragon at 12:58 PM on October 9, 2024 [3 favorites]
I just view it as elaborate fan fic.
posted by Pendragon at 12:58 PM on October 9, 2024 [3 favorites]
My reaction was all over the map this season. I thought it ended on an OK note but their were points I was thinking about giving up on it.
In retrospect, I think I'd have enjoyed it better if they had the discipline to give each episode an traditional plot arc within the larger season story. This is partly because I didn't find most of the season long progressions holding my attention on their own, but I think it would distribute the tonal beats a bit better too. At least as I remember it, the LotR always sprinkled a lot of hope in with the shadows.
I reread the appendices in RotK, and there's certainly material for a really good three seasons--but also (and more likely) to get a couple extremely dark ones that focus on the dystopian aspects of tyrannical Numenor facing off with Mordor.
posted by mark k at 8:53 PM on October 9, 2024 [1 favorite]
In retrospect, I think I'd have enjoyed it better if they had the discipline to give each episode an traditional plot arc within the larger season story. This is partly because I didn't find most of the season long progressions holding my attention on their own, but I think it would distribute the tonal beats a bit better too. At least as I remember it, the LotR always sprinkled a lot of hope in with the shadows.
I reread the appendices in RotK, and there's certainly material for a really good three seasons--but also (and more likely) to get a couple extremely dark ones that focus on the dystopian aspects of tyrannical Numenor facing off with Mordor.
posted by mark k at 8:53 PM on October 9, 2024 [1 favorite]
but it really doesn't have anything to do with the spirit of Lord of the Rings that Tolkien created.
I'm genuinely interested in why people make claims like this, because I don't get it. One can obviously dislike the show, but I see so many claims about how it obviously doesn't respect the source material, and I'm just like why? Based on what? According to whom?
posted by Alex404 at 11:34 PM on October 9, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'm genuinely interested in why people make claims like this, because I don't get it. One can obviously dislike the show, but I see so many claims about how it obviously doesn't respect the source material, and I'm just like why? Based on what? According to whom?
posted by Alex404 at 11:34 PM on October 9, 2024 [2 favorites]
It derives from the Jackson movies instead of deriving from the books, while fishing for some story points in the Silmarilion. It’s the tone and dialogue.
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:33 AM on October 10, 2024
posted by WaterAndPixels at 7:33 AM on October 10, 2024
I enjoyed the conclusion, and was also glad they didn't try to cram a conclusion to every storyline going on through the season. I.e., Numenor is dry for now!
Speaking of which, wood for a great fleet, huh? I see where that's going. I also wonder if they will either A) make the disappearance of the Ent Wives something awful like they get all chopped up or B) this will be the source of their disappearance, fleeing from the sight of their forests being destroyed.
I'm mixed over how the balrog was handled in the finale. Are we to presume that the dwarves have a little bit of breathing space so long as they go digging after that mithril? Or will next season be the dwarves dealing with the balrog? I also wondered if there wasn't some level of fine tuning in the scene when Durin the Elder was preparing to make a suicidal attack, as I thought we were getting some voice over but then it transitioned into directed speech right at Durin the Younger.
Durin and Elrond are going to have a sad meeting where neither will understand why the other is behaving they way they are and it's going to be very, very sad in season three.
Gandalf. I'm still working out the Istarii math here on this one, but at the moment, this guy along with Saruman, is looking at least a 20% corruption rate among wizards sent to Middle Earth. It had to be Gandalf after all these hints, and I agree, the hobbits didn't have a lot to do in this episode other than serve as inspiration for Gandalf to find his groove/gand/staff. I really do enjoy the characters, so I hope they can keep showing up but with something a bit more substantial than living their lives off on the side of the big things happening elsewhere.
It's kind of funny, but anymore it feels like Sauron is kind of running around in a state of confusion over why no one is telling him or agreeing with him that his ideas are the absolute best in the world. "Listen Celebrimbor, this is..." "Nah, dude, you're awful." "UGH! Listen Galadriel we can..." "Just stop moving so I can stick a sword in your face!" "UGGGH!" [sauron then stabs Uruk because it's been a day.]
I guess I'm happy no elf went and said, "Hey, let's camp by this river in a dale over here."
posted by Atreides at 7:36 AM on October 10, 2024
Speaking of which, wood for a great fleet, huh? I see where that's going. I also wonder if they will either A) make the disappearance of the Ent Wives something awful like they get all chopped up or B) this will be the source of their disappearance, fleeing from the sight of their forests being destroyed.
I'm mixed over how the balrog was handled in the finale. Are we to presume that the dwarves have a little bit of breathing space so long as they go digging after that mithril? Or will next season be the dwarves dealing with the balrog? I also wondered if there wasn't some level of fine tuning in the scene when Durin the Elder was preparing to make a suicidal attack, as I thought we were getting some voice over but then it transitioned into directed speech right at Durin the Younger.
Durin and Elrond are going to have a sad meeting where neither will understand why the other is behaving they way they are and it's going to be very, very sad in season three.
Gandalf. I'm still working out the Istarii math here on this one, but at the moment, this guy along with Saruman, is looking at least a 20% corruption rate among wizards sent to Middle Earth. It had to be Gandalf after all these hints, and I agree, the hobbits didn't have a lot to do in this episode other than serve as inspiration for Gandalf to find his groove/gand/staff. I really do enjoy the characters, so I hope they can keep showing up but with something a bit more substantial than living their lives off on the side of the big things happening elsewhere.
It's kind of funny, but anymore it feels like Sauron is kind of running around in a state of confusion over why no one is telling him or agreeing with him that his ideas are the absolute best in the world. "Listen Celebrimbor, this is..." "Nah, dude, you're awful." "UGH! Listen Galadriel we can..." "Just stop moving so I can stick a sword in your face!" "UGGGH!" [sauron then stabs Uruk because it's been a day.]
I guess I'm happy no elf went and said, "Hey, let's camp by this river in a dale over here."
posted by Atreides at 7:36 AM on October 10, 2024
Based on what? According to whom?
According to me and based on me reading the books. You don't have to agree but don't act like people are not basing their criticism on nothing.
posted by Pendragon at 9:21 AM on October 10, 2024
According to me and based on me reading the books. You don't have to agree but don't act like people are not basing their criticism on nothing.
posted by Pendragon at 9:21 AM on October 10, 2024
I dug the choreography of using the Crown of Saaaauron as a main-gauche. I see the creative link between the classical depiction and, well, a main-gauche/ swordbreaker/ trident.
Not so much that Galads can fall, what say the Burj Khalifa 820m (~9 second fall*), and just... bounce?
*I counted just under ~10s between her falling and her falling out of frame from the ground view.
posted by porpoise at 8:11 PM on October 10, 2024
Not so much that Galads can fall, what say the Burj Khalifa 820m (~9 second fall*), and just... bounce?
*I counted just under ~10s between her falling and her falling out of frame from the ground view.
posted by porpoise at 8:11 PM on October 10, 2024
According to me and based on me reading the books. You don't have to agree but don't act like people are not basing their criticism on nothing.
I'm not saying it's not based on anything, I'm saying it's based on their own subjective opinions like anything else. That's totally legitimate, as this is entertainment/art, and people should evaluate it based on their subjective experience. What annoys me is people constantly referring to Tolkien (as an objective authority) to bolster the validity of their subjective opinion. I'm glad you enjoyed the show, even though it doesn't align with how you read Tolkien! That's far more open minded than many critics of the show have been. You have also been entirely non-specific about what the show gets "objectively" wrong about Tolkien.
For me, even though I still feel the films are better (I mean I think they're masterpieces on their own terms), I think there's a number of things the show is doing that's truer to the source material (e.g. wrt the dwarves and orcs).
posted by Alex404 at 12:33 AM on October 11, 2024 [2 favorites]
I'm not saying it's not based on anything, I'm saying it's based on their own subjective opinions like anything else. That's totally legitimate, as this is entertainment/art, and people should evaluate it based on their subjective experience. What annoys me is people constantly referring to Tolkien (as an objective authority) to bolster the validity of their subjective opinion. I'm glad you enjoyed the show, even though it doesn't align with how you read Tolkien! That's far more open minded than many critics of the show have been. You have also been entirely non-specific about what the show gets "objectively" wrong about Tolkien.
For me, even though I still feel the films are better (I mean I think they're masterpieces on their own terms), I think there's a number of things the show is doing that's truer to the source material (e.g. wrt the dwarves and orcs).
posted by Alex404 at 12:33 AM on October 11, 2024 [2 favorites]
Not so much that Galads can fall, what say the Burj Khalifa 820m (~9 second fall*), and just... bounce?
There's definitely a timing change based on the POV of who's watching her fall. I think it's probably closer to five to seven seconds max. But, you know, she wasn't well, when they found her. Heh.
I reckon next season will be about the dispersal of the nine rings. Or maybe next season and a half? Then wrap it up with season 4 finale of the one ring being forged, and season five finale with Sauron's defeat at Mt Doom and Isildur picking up his precious.
In that time period, we have to have Gondor established, too, the white tree transplanted, and so on. This is going to be interesting to see how they work the time, if there are any significant time jumps, etc...
posted by Atreides at 7:53 AM on October 11, 2024 [1 favorite]
There's definitely a timing change based on the POV of who's watching her fall. I think it's probably closer to five to seven seconds max. But, you know, she wasn't well, when they found her. Heh.
I reckon next season will be about the dispersal of the nine rings. Or maybe next season and a half? Then wrap it up with season 4 finale of the one ring being forged, and season five finale with Sauron's defeat at Mt Doom and Isildur picking up his precious.
In that time period, we have to have Gondor established, too, the white tree transplanted, and so on. This is going to be interesting to see how they work the time, if there are any significant time jumps, etc...
posted by Atreides at 7:53 AM on October 11, 2024 [1 favorite]
NGL, was hoping he'd be Saruman. Not only does the actor look more like Lee than McKellen, but I felt like they gave him some kinda pushy elements in his characterization. Ah well.
Otherwise this might have been the weakest episode of a season that I otherwise pretty much enjoyed and have found myself defending. Needed more surprises.
The cast will keep me coming back. Once Gil-galad got into the armor, I was like, "THAT is why he was cast." And Charlie Vickers' facial expressions as Sauron continue to impress. He had a chilling moment during the Galadriel fight in this one where it was as if he let the entire Regular Bipedal Non-Slime-Based Lifeform facade slip.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 9:59 AM on October 11, 2024 [1 favorite]
Otherwise this might have been the weakest episode of a season that I otherwise pretty much enjoyed and have found myself defending. Needed more surprises.
The cast will keep me coming back. Once Gil-galad got into the armor, I was like, "THAT is why he was cast." And Charlie Vickers' facial expressions as Sauron continue to impress. He had a chilling moment during the Galadriel fight in this one where it was as if he let the entire Regular Bipedal Non-Slime-Based Lifeform facade slip.
posted by CheesesOfBrazil at 9:59 AM on October 11, 2024 [1 favorite]
For context, I really liked the last few episodes.
There are certain parts that don't fit my understanding of the books.
The show doesn't seem to understand Tom Bombadil. In the show he is the Yoda to Gandalf's Luke. He is po-faced, lives in an arid climate, and Goldberry seems to exist only in his mind. He directs Gandalf to continue his quest like a badly written NPC. In the books he is a force of nature that has no need to involve himself with greater plans. The Ring has no effect on him because he doesn't care for power or domination. He is merry, jolly, and silly, one with nature. Too silly to keep in the films or portray in the show.
Then there's the portrayal of Elrond and Galadriel. Elrond is a young gun in this one even though the Three Rings were forged in Eregion 1600* years into the Second Age. Elrond was born 60 years before the end of the First Age. Of course elves are not exactly rational or mild-tempered, so even though Elrond was a healer and lore master, his presentation makes sense knowing he gets sent to help Eregion during the events of the show. Also although he's royalty and has some Maia blood, his upbringing was far from peaceful.
Galadriel is an interesting one. My first reaction is that she's old, having seen all 600 years of the sun in the First Age plus a number of Years of the Trees (born 1360 till the Trees of Valinor were destroyed in 5000). A Valian year is about 10 sun years.
On the other hand, she's known to be athletic, proud, wanting to rule and it's an interesting juxtaposition to the Galadriel we see in the Third Age. However.
Galadriel has been banned from Aman, the lands of the Valar at the end of the First Age and she did not want to return. By the time of the show she has married Celeborn and given birth to Celebrian (you know, Elrond's future wife). Celeborn is supposed to have fought in the Sack of Eregion. Galadriel also has a reputation of being wise, which is not really seen on the show.
Numenor is also kind of a mess both in terms of chronology (Ar-Pharazôn is thousands of years later), and if we are already in the civil war I'm not seeing the influence of Numenor in Middle Earth, the prowess of Ar-Pharazôn that allows him to usurp the throne (he's a populist in a system without voting, but where apparently surviving the attack of a sea monster doesn't count for anything) or the power base of Elendil (I suppose an army, or rather a navy of loyalists will be somehow waiting for him).
On more general terms, I think the show sometimes mistakes breathlessness for earnestness and pursuing some plot points too hard. I appreciate parts like spending time on Adar and the orcs ,which is in line with the themes (even if not the focus) of the book. Not sure how I feel about his final scene though. Moria is great and the friendship of Elrond and Durin was lovely.
Then again there are creative liberties I can understand like the Ring having been created before Region was attacked. I liked the focus on Sauron and Celebrimbor even when not always agreeing with the execution.
I also think it has some fancy scenes and it makes me think of Tolkien again, so I'll watch the third season when it arrives.
*Minor rounding in the figures.
posted by ersatz at 3:45 PM on October 11, 2024 [3 favorites]
There are certain parts that don't fit my understanding of the books.
The show doesn't seem to understand Tom Bombadil. In the show he is the Yoda to Gandalf's Luke. He is po-faced, lives in an arid climate, and Goldberry seems to exist only in his mind. He directs Gandalf to continue his quest like a badly written NPC. In the books he is a force of nature that has no need to involve himself with greater plans. The Ring has no effect on him because he doesn't care for power or domination. He is merry, jolly, and silly, one with nature. Too silly to keep in the films or portray in the show.
Then there's the portrayal of Elrond and Galadriel. Elrond is a young gun in this one even though the Three Rings were forged in Eregion 1600* years into the Second Age. Elrond was born 60 years before the end of the First Age. Of course elves are not exactly rational or mild-tempered, so even though Elrond was a healer and lore master, his presentation makes sense knowing he gets sent to help Eregion during the events of the show. Also although he's royalty and has some Maia blood, his upbringing was far from peaceful.
Galadriel is an interesting one. My first reaction is that she's old, having seen all 600 years of the sun in the First Age plus a number of Years of the Trees (born 1360 till the Trees of Valinor were destroyed in 5000). A Valian year is about 10 sun years.
On the other hand, she's known to be athletic, proud, wanting to rule and it's an interesting juxtaposition to the Galadriel we see in the Third Age. However.
Galadriel has been banned from Aman, the lands of the Valar at the end of the First Age and she did not want to return. By the time of the show she has married Celeborn and given birth to Celebrian (you know, Elrond's future wife). Celeborn is supposed to have fought in the Sack of Eregion. Galadriel also has a reputation of being wise, which is not really seen on the show.
Numenor is also kind of a mess both in terms of chronology (Ar-Pharazôn is thousands of years later), and if we are already in the civil war I'm not seeing the influence of Numenor in Middle Earth, the prowess of Ar-Pharazôn that allows him to usurp the throne (he's a populist in a system without voting, but where apparently surviving the attack of a sea monster doesn't count for anything) or the power base of Elendil (I suppose an army, or rather a navy of loyalists will be somehow waiting for him).
On more general terms, I think the show sometimes mistakes breathlessness for earnestness and pursuing some plot points too hard. I appreciate parts like spending time on Adar and the orcs ,which is in line with the themes (even if not the focus) of the book. Not sure how I feel about his final scene though. Moria is great and the friendship of Elrond and Durin was lovely.
Then again there are creative liberties I can understand like the Ring having been created before Region was attacked. I liked the focus on Sauron and Celebrimbor even when not always agreeing with the execution.
I also think it has some fancy scenes and it makes me think of Tolkien again, so I'll watch the third season when it arrives.
*Minor rounding in the figures.
posted by ersatz at 3:45 PM on October 11, 2024 [3 favorites]
The show doesn't seem to understand Tom Bombadil.
Tom Bombadil for me was also a bit of a disappointment this season. He wasn't bad, and he had some good moments, but he felt very generic. He basically just felt like another Wizard-type quest-giver guy. I wish they'd upped the weirdness and inscrutability by a factor of 10.
posted by Alex404 at 10:15 PM on October 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
Tom Bombadil for me was also a bit of a disappointment this season. He wasn't bad, and he had some good moments, but he felt very generic. He basically just felt like another Wizard-type quest-giver guy. I wish they'd upped the weirdness and inscrutability by a factor of 10.
posted by Alex404 at 10:15 PM on October 11, 2024 [4 favorites]
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Highlights:
- Yah whatever. Let Durin III go out like a heavy metal album cover.
- Celebrimbor's the lord of zingers that's for sure. He went out well.
- Adar! Also out. I guess your time was clearly up. Those final few scenes with him were bittersweet. Celebrimbor + Sauron were the highlight of the season, but Adar and the development of the orcs was right up there.
- The Galadriel vs Sauron showdown was solid.
Low points:
- Gandalf! BOOO! BOOO I SAY! Sigh, whatever.
Random thoughts:
- The hobbits had very little to do this season. I see a lot of people wishing the hobbits don't come back next season or whatever, but I hope the showrunners don't listen. I think they have a lot of potential. Anyway, a lot of storylines got sidelined this season so hopefully we'll spend more time with those characters next season. I guess season 3 will be very Numenor focused.
Anyway, I've enjoyed this a lot. I'm looking forward to more. Hopefully the next season won't take another 2 years.
posted by Alex404 at 12:51 PM on October 9, 2024