Severance: Hello, Ms. Cobel
January 16, 2025 7:22 PM - Season 2, Episode 1 - Subscribe
Mark returns to work under different circumstances. Secrets from the Outie world come to light.
Hey kids. What's for dinner?
Hey kids. What's for dinner?
I wonder how long before someone makes a map of Mark's run to wellness.
posted by surlyben at 10:08 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
posted by surlyben at 10:08 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
I grabbed a screen capture of the hint at the end showing that whatever the numbers are they might be related to whatever is happening with Ms Casey.
I do not trust "Helly". I think she's Helena.
Dylan and Irving's scene together was so moving.
I too hope we get to see more of the new Macrodats.
posted by simonw at 10:25 PM on January 16 [7 favorites]
I do not trust "Helly". I think she's Helena.
Dylan and Irving's scene together was so moving.
I too hope we get to see more of the new Macrodats.
posted by simonw at 10:25 PM on January 16 [7 favorites]
... apparently the voice of the building in that fabulous claymation corporate video was an uncredited Keanu Reeves!
posted by simonw at 10:33 PM on January 16 [19 favorites]
posted by simonw at 10:33 PM on January 16 [19 favorites]
"The board does not converse with innies."
Yeah, Helly's tell-ey is super falsehoody.
Mark S showing relationship-stuff with innie-Helly is kind of interesting. Given Helly~Helena, is there now some kind of two-way communication between - or is Helena's knowledge purely from surveillance rather than experience?
I'm unconvinced that original innie-Helly was a complete con from the start.
Weird how they reinforced "Hello Ms. Cobel" visually when it was Milkshake who accessed the terminal. First thingwhen before someone gets fired is revocation of electronic access.
posted by porpoise at 11:11 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
Yeah, Helly's tell-ey is super falsehoody.
Mark S showing relationship-stuff with innie-Helly is kind of interesting. Given Helly~Helena, is there now some kind of two-way communication between - or is Helena's knowledge purely from surveillance rather than experience?
I'm unconvinced that original innie-Helly was a complete con from the start.
Weird how they reinforced "Hello Ms. Cobel" visually when it was Milkshake who accessed the terminal. First thing
posted by porpoise at 11:11 PM on January 16 [1 favorite]
Milchick on Cobel: "We believe she developed an erotic fixation on you, and had plans to pursue both you and your outie in what might be termed a throuple."
I am very much looking forward to catching up with Cobel, hopefully next episode.
posted by simonw at 11:40 PM on January 16 [7 favorites]
I am very much looking forward to catching up with Cobel, hopefully next episode.
posted by simonw at 11:40 PM on January 16 [7 favorites]
The moment that convinced me for sure Helly is Helena is the moment she takes to find the switch behind the monitor. Everyone else turns it on instantly
posted by azarbayejani at 1:07 AM on January 17 [25 favorites]
posted by azarbayejani at 1:07 AM on January 17 [25 favorites]
Really curious about how much about the outside world the Innies know, and how the severance process picks and chooses the knowledge to keep. They don't know what state they live in, but they recognize the name of a famous author? Hmm.
posted by lesser weasel at 3:47 AM on January 17
posted by lesser weasel at 3:47 AM on January 17
I'm so happy Severance is back!
Need to watch again, but I was immediately struck by how you can't trust absolutely anything down on the severance floor. That newspaper page of the parade totally looked like a fake. Milchick told Mark it's been five months, but was it five months, five days, five hours? They really have no way of knowing for sure.
Dylan's Family Visitation Suite seems awfully suspicious, as they could just send some Lumon employee down there pretending to be his wife. When Dylan asks, "Are you saying I could see my family down here?" Milchick has a rather odd reply: "If you take the name of the room at face value, I'd say yes."
Both Dylan and Mark were almost too easily given something they desperately wanted -- Dylan his family, Mark his team back. Why?
I do think we're seeing the real Helena. Such a nice catch on the switch, azarbayejani! And clever that the character switch would be revealed by an actual switch. And the fact that Helly's arrival on the elevator was last and seemed a bit delayed. If they had to turn off a setting on her chip remotely, that might take a minute.
I've been simmering some theories about whether Lumon is able to excise someone's consciousness, in full or in part, and transfer it to another body. Like, Harmony Cobel seems like a likely candidate (her stories diverge so much, and I've long suspected she's not mourning her mother but her daughter). Miss Huong is so unsettling, is that something that happened to her?
So many great parallels, too, to the perils of the work environment in daily life:
1. Entering a boss's office not knowing whether you'd be scolded or rewarded
2. Having to juggle your connection to your real spouse and your work spouse
3. The feel of never really seeing daylight, or feeling a breeze
posted by mochapickle at 4:19 AM on January 17 [11 favorites]
Need to watch again, but I was immediately struck by how you can't trust absolutely anything down on the severance floor. That newspaper page of the parade totally looked like a fake. Milchick told Mark it's been five months, but was it five months, five days, five hours? They really have no way of knowing for sure.
Dylan's Family Visitation Suite seems awfully suspicious, as they could just send some Lumon employee down there pretending to be his wife. When Dylan asks, "Are you saying I could see my family down here?" Milchick has a rather odd reply: "If you take the name of the room at face value, I'd say yes."
Both Dylan and Mark were almost too easily given something they desperately wanted -- Dylan his family, Mark his team back. Why?
I do think we're seeing the real Helena. Such a nice catch on the switch, azarbayejani! And clever that the character switch would be revealed by an actual switch. And the fact that Helly's arrival on the elevator was last and seemed a bit delayed. If they had to turn off a setting on her chip remotely, that might take a minute.
I've been simmering some theories about whether Lumon is able to excise someone's consciousness, in full or in part, and transfer it to another body. Like, Harmony Cobel seems like a likely candidate (her stories diverge so much, and I've long suspected she's not mourning her mother but her daughter). Miss Huong is so unsettling, is that something that happened to her?
So many great parallels, too, to the perils of the work environment in daily life:
1. Entering a boss's office not knowing whether you'd be scolded or rewarded
2. Having to juggle your connection to your real spouse and your work spouse
3. The feel of never really seeing daylight, or feeling a breeze
posted by mochapickle at 4:19 AM on January 17 [11 favorites]
Also cut beans and Christmas mints are just so wonderfully bizarre and hilarious.
posted by mochapickle at 4:28 AM on January 17 [7 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 4:28 AM on January 17 [7 favorites]
mochapickle, the true size of the time skip is one of my big questions too! And agreed, great catch, azarbayejani.
Did anyone else wonder about Irv? He seemed so sure about leaving that I could not imagine an impassioned speech from Dylan changing his mind. It doesn’t seem like a Helena situation but he and his outie are still the most enticing mystery to me.
posted by eirias at 6:07 AM on January 17
Did anyone else wonder about Irv? He seemed so sure about leaving that I could not imagine an impassioned speech from Dylan changing his mind. It doesn’t seem like a Helena situation but he and his outie are still the most enticing mystery to me.
posted by eirias at 6:07 AM on January 17
Fully agree with everyone here (and the entire Internet it seems) about the Helly/Helena switch. Since it seems so obvious I'll suspect this will be confirmed quickly/when we get a look at the outside world perspective. Her "what happened" story was also quite unconvincing. Ok, so you woke up in a boring apartment, but what did you do for twenty minutes? Go outside? Look for any documents in your apartment? Change from the nature documentary to the news? Look at your phone and try to call someone?
The uncertainty of the time jumps is disorientating for sure. How long did it take to get the gang (minus Helly) back together after Mark's outburst? Relatedly, I was expecting more of that outburst energy related to demanding to know what the deal is with Gemma vs. getting the team back.
The motivational posters were unhinged but this one in particular was my favorite. Also loved the musical cue of the "heat miser" song as claymation Irving's hair goes up in flames. As they realized everything they ever said was recorded, they must be wondering if there are no cameras now or simply less obvious cameras. Also great was Dylan's exasperated reaction to being portrayed as a snack-addicted caricature.
As with everything else, we can't really know if "all" innies will now see the claymation production but at the very least they seem to have been told some version of events based on all the questions of the MDR replacement team.
Notable that the other Mark reveals his previous team never hit quota. Is that why Lumon is putting so much effort in on our Mark? Is he some sort of refining prodigy? It might also explain why the team got so much slack in season 1 even after the wheels started to come off.
posted by mikepop at 6:13 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
The uncertainty of the time jumps is disorientating for sure. How long did it take to get the gang (minus Helly) back together after Mark's outburst? Relatedly, I was expecting more of that outburst energy related to demanding to know what the deal is with Gemma vs. getting the team back.
The motivational posters were unhinged but this one in particular was my favorite. Also loved the musical cue of the "heat miser" song as claymation Irving's hair goes up in flames. As they realized everything they ever said was recorded, they must be wondering if there are no cameras now or simply less obvious cameras. Also great was Dylan's exasperated reaction to being portrayed as a snack-addicted caricature.
As with everything else, we can't really know if "all" innies will now see the claymation production but at the very least they seem to have been told some version of events based on all the questions of the MDR replacement team.
Notable that the other Mark reveals his previous team never hit quota. Is that why Lumon is putting so much effort in on our Mark? Is he some sort of refining prodigy? It might also explain why the team got so much slack in season 1 even after the wheels started to come off.
posted by mikepop at 6:13 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
I wonder if the outties are part time now? Not the whole part time innies thing that we saw with Ms Casey, but maybe they only go in to work one day a week?
Reason I suggest that is that Mark's team of outties seemed retired. Consider just Helena: she presumably has a busy life doing evil Lumon Eagan stuff. Can she afford to go back to work five days a week just to placate Mark's innie?
Maybe Lumon told outtie Irving and Dylan that they would pay them a bigger chunk of money to come back in one day a week, which was also the amount of time they could get out of Helena. The innies have no way of knowing what their work schedule is.
posted by simonw at 7:23 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
Reason I suggest that is that Mark's team of outties seemed retired. Consider just Helena: she presumably has a busy life doing evil Lumon Eagan stuff. Can she afford to go back to work five days a week just to placate Mark's innie?
Maybe Lumon told outtie Irving and Dylan that they would pay them a bigger chunk of money to come back in one day a week, which was also the amount of time they could get out of Helena. The innies have no way of knowing what their work schedule is.
posted by simonw at 7:23 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
They don't know what state they live in, but they recognize the name of a famous author? Hmm.
Ah, what famous author was mentioned? I only recall the BIL being mentioned as an author, and they all knew of him because of his book that had accidentally been left behind. Ricken is definitely not famous though, haha.
I will say that some of the new information (Lumon has severed floors all around the world! I guess the old man is getting what he (and Helena) wanted) felt a bit out of left field, but I'm confident that this'll be explained (yep, maybe there was a bigger time jump, maybe the 'event' at the end of S1 was actually spun as a positive for Lumon, etc).
I do wonder about that fill-in team, though ... we have to imagine that their outties would have been cool with relocating, in some cases halfway across the world...
I do think that the quick flash of Gemma (definitely not Ms Casey) was really interesting. She and Mark both worked at the university as teachers, right? And there's some sort of tie between Lumon and the university... Feels like the intimation is that Gemma is working voluntarily for Lumon (maybe the car accident was a cover or she received life-saving care from Lumon) and her innie is somehow part of her work...? Maybe the severance procedure was somehow required to save her...?
posted by destructive cactus at 7:35 AM on January 17 [2 favorites]
Ah, what famous author was mentioned? I only recall the BIL being mentioned as an author, and they all knew of him because of his book that had accidentally been left behind. Ricken is definitely not famous though, haha.
I will say that some of the new information (Lumon has severed floors all around the world! I guess the old man is getting what he (and Helena) wanted) felt a bit out of left field, but I'm confident that this'll be explained (yep, maybe there was a bigger time jump, maybe the 'event' at the end of S1 was actually spun as a positive for Lumon, etc).
I do wonder about that fill-in team, though ... we have to imagine that their outties would have been cool with relocating, in some cases halfway across the world...
I do think that the quick flash of Gemma (definitely not Ms Casey) was really interesting. She and Mark both worked at the university as teachers, right? And there's some sort of tie between Lumon and the university... Feels like the intimation is that Gemma is working voluntarily for Lumon (maybe the car accident was a cover or she received life-saving care from Lumon) and her innie is somehow part of her work...? Maybe the severance procedure was somehow required to save her...?
posted by destructive cactus at 7:35 AM on January 17 [2 favorites]
What are the circular shapes in the lower left of the screencap of Gemma's face? Cell division or something? Combined with the medical telemetry (EKG, SPO2, etc) I think we are meant to think that the refinement has something to do with life support of part-time severed employees? This would explain the fact that they are refining the numbers into buckets based on Keir Eagan's four tempers (Woe, Frolic, Dread & Malice), maybe to affect the personality of the innies?
I really think our understanding of what happened in this episode will be GREATLY altered by seeing the outie perspective.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:49 AM on January 17 [4 favorites]
I really think our understanding of what happened in this episode will be GREATLY altered by seeing the outie perspective.
posted by Rock Steady at 8:49 AM on January 17 [4 favorites]
This article has a screenshot of the (heavily redacted) newspaper that Milchick shows Mark, which includes this very suspicious detail:
posted by simonw at 8:50 AM on January 17 [7 favorites]
A benediction was delivered by Dr. Ricken Hale, author of such hits as "The You You Are" and "These Values Nine: How I Let Kier In".I don't think Ricken would write that Kier book at all, and certainly not in the five months that have supposedly passed since the Macrodat Uprising.
posted by simonw at 8:50 AM on January 17 [7 favorites]
I wonder who that figure in the hallway in the background was while Mark S was exploring Wellness in the opening sequence. Mr. Milchick? I didn't have time to pause and look, but I vaguely thought they were dressed similarly to Mark.
posted by nightcoast at 8:52 AM on January 17 [5 favorites]
posted by nightcoast at 8:52 AM on January 17 [5 favorites]
I thought it was supposed to be Milkshake, but yeah, interesting observation...
posted by Rock Steady at 8:59 AM on January 17
posted by Rock Steady at 8:59 AM on January 17
The man in the hallway is blurry, but it looks like he's white?
Also, I think someone might have made some sort of a side deal with Irving while Dylan was meeting with Milchick about the visitation room, right? Mark got something he wanted, Dylan got something he wanted, so it makes sense that someone (maybe waiting outside the exit door?) made a promise to Irving.
From Irving's perspective, it had been less than an hour since he was on Burt's doorstep -- maybe they promised him Burt?
posted by mochapickle at 9:44 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
Also, I think someone might have made some sort of a side deal with Irving while Dylan was meeting with Milchick about the visitation room, right? Mark got something he wanted, Dylan got something he wanted, so it makes sense that someone (maybe waiting outside the exit door?) made a promise to Irving.
From Irving's perspective, it had been less than an hour since he was on Burt's doorstep -- maybe they promised him Burt?
posted by mochapickle at 9:44 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
this is actually Helena being inserted into the severed floor as a mole.
That was my first thought but it seems so obvious, so I think she's not. She would also have to have undergone Reintegration and that seems to go against all that Kier stands for.
posted by Pendragon at 10:05 AM on January 17 [2 favorites]
That was my first thought but it seems so obvious, so I think she's not. She would also have to have undergone Reintegration and that seems to go against all that Kier stands for.
posted by Pendragon at 10:05 AM on January 17 [2 favorites]
Hallway guy is also dressed differently from Milkshake — the blurry person is wearing a dark suit with a white shirt. Milkshake is wearing a black blazer and blue turtleneck.
posted by nathan_teske at 10:05 AM on January 17
posted by nathan_teske at 10:05 AM on January 17
There's an actor credited as "man in hallway" in the end credits - I know because I was trying to find out if the Lumon building voice was Keanu Reeves. Also, Keanu wasn't in the credits, but the only other listed non-main-cast actor was SNL's Sarah Sherman, who apparently voiced the water tower.
posted by Ragged Richard at 10:18 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
posted by Ragged Richard at 10:18 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
On second thought if Helly is Helena and she has Reintegrated it could mean Helena will have second thoughts about the whole severance thing and join the innies later on in the season.
posted by Pendragon at 10:28 AM on January 17
posted by Pendragon at 10:28 AM on January 17
So... the cartoon personifies the Lumon building as sentient, and I wonder how far away from the truth that is. Control features the Oldest House, a bland building whose interior is labyrinthine and constantly changing. There's a number of other similarities, including the presence of a Board, the perpetuity wing containing an entire house, the absence of contemporary technology, the occasional brutalist architecture.
Originally I took the cartoon as reverse psychology: their oppressor celebrating their act of defiance is certain to confuse people engaged in oppositional defiance. But maybe the Board and the Lumon building has opposing interests and genuinely needs their help. Maybe the welcome screen addressing Ms Cobel is a sign of the conflict
She would also have to have undergone Reintegration and that seems to go against all that Kier stands for.
I mean the Kier family seems like the kind of people who would cheat the rules to their benefit. Insisting that severance cannot be undone but then giving their favored daughter that gift.
But as influential as they seem, I suspect the Kiers are little more than figurehead owners recruited to be the face of the system, while the board is truly in control. I imagine there's two plants -- Helly from one side and Irv on the other. This would explain Irv's change of heart, as he is swapped out with a plant after Dylan leaves him alone.
posted by pwnguin at 10:36 AM on January 17
Originally I took the cartoon as reverse psychology: their oppressor celebrating their act of defiance is certain to confuse people engaged in oppositional defiance. But maybe the Board and the Lumon building has opposing interests and genuinely needs their help. Maybe the welcome screen addressing Ms Cobel is a sign of the conflict
She would also have to have undergone Reintegration and that seems to go against all that Kier stands for.
I mean the Kier family seems like the kind of people who would cheat the rules to their benefit. Insisting that severance cannot be undone but then giving their favored daughter that gift.
But as influential as they seem, I suspect the Kiers are little more than figurehead owners recruited to be the face of the system, while the board is truly in control. I imagine there's two plants -- Helly from one side and Irv on the other. This would explain Irv's change of heart, as he is swapped out with a plant after Dylan leaves him alone.
posted by pwnguin at 10:36 AM on January 17
If Helly is actually Helena I don't think that means she re-integrated: the new Helly didn't seem to share all memories of the old Helly (most notably she couldn't find the on switch for her computer), so I think it's Helena pretending to be Helly based on video surveillance footage and notes provided by Milchick.
I think "the board" is Jame Eagan, possibly with all of the other former CEOs living on inside his head via whatever "revolving" is.
posted by simonw at 11:39 AM on January 17 [4 favorites]
I think "the board" is Jame Eagan, possibly with all of the other former CEOs living on inside his head via whatever "revolving" is.
posted by simonw at 11:39 AM on January 17 [4 favorites]
We also paused and read the entire Kier Chronicle newspaper (volume number 51,903 "your trusted source for going's on in Kier and the Greater World" since 1893). It claims to be less than a week since the incident. The Ricken book "The Values Nine: How In Let Keir In" seems like a fake detail since it is so unlike him. Most telling, the photo looks like a really bad edit from a 1950s tickertape parade with the group photo cut out for the four of them.
The left column article seems to be about Irving's outies' apartment being broken into ("upon examining my attic .. my grandfathers ... box") and mentions the water in the kitchen was left running (was that a detail from when he woke up?). The right column article might be Burts retirement announcement ("scientific miracle at Lumon ... his research was changing the way we recycle plastic")
Milkshake said it had been five months? But he still doesn't have his office and computer setup? That's odd...
I'm also plus one on Helena spying for the board as fake Helly.
posted by autopilot at 11:43 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
The left column article seems to be about Irving's outies' apartment being broken into ("upon examining my attic .. my grandfathers ... box") and mentions the water in the kitchen was left running (was that a detail from when he woke up?). The right column article might be Burts retirement announcement ("scientific miracle at Lumon ... his research was changing the way we recycle plastic")
Milkshake said it had been five months? But he still doesn't have his office and computer setup? That's odd...
I'm also plus one on Helena spying for the board as fake Helly.
posted by autopilot at 11:43 AM on January 17 [3 favorites]
THEY DON’T NEED CAMERAS WHEN THEY’VE GOT HELENA!!! Yeah, that was totally Helena, even the way she talked was different. Helly’s speech was low, serious, and conspiratorial. Helena is putting on resigned confusion, which is out of character for Helly. I don’t think she would have hid who she was — there was no reason for shame because she clearly had fully distanced herself from her outie by threatening to mutilate and kill her, and they all saw how dismissive and dehumanizing her outie was to her. She would have told them what she stood up and said to the world.
And the newspaper is “The Kier Chronicle”, just a company propaganda rag.
“If you take those words at face value” I laughed so hard.
Welcome back, everybody!
posted by antinomia at 11:46 AM on January 17 [6 favorites]
And the newspaper is “The Kier Chronicle”, just a company propaganda rag.
“If you take those words at face value” I laughed so hard.
Welcome back, everybody!
posted by antinomia at 11:46 AM on January 17 [6 favorites]
None of the innies know the identity of Helly's outie, and the only thing they know about her outie is that she's a jerk ("I am a person. You are not.") - so I don't think they would have any reason to be particularly suspicious of her. I think Helena might be able to get away with it for a while, even with Irving's suspicion about the "night time gardener".
I got the impression The Kier Chronicle is more than a company rag - I think it's the (Lumon-owned) newspaper of Kier County where everything is taking place. More on that here: The Kier Chronicle · Severance Wiki - which describes the promotional copy distributed at San Diego Comic Con and calls it "The most reliable news source in the greater Kier area" published since 1893.
posted by simonw at 11:54 AM on January 17
I got the impression The Kier Chronicle is more than a company rag - I think it's the (Lumon-owned) newspaper of Kier County where everything is taking place. More on that here: The Kier Chronicle · Severance Wiki - which describes the promotional copy distributed at San Diego Comic Con and calls it "The most reliable news source in the greater Kier area" published since 1893.
posted by simonw at 11:54 AM on January 17
Three other freeze frame details.
What was the game / work that Ms Wong was doing? It maybe said MAIN LEVEL and seemed to involving sorting things into bins.
What do the DIP switches on the terminals do?
And was that Ms Casey in the COLD HARBOR macrodata? It looked sort of like her along with some medical data (heart rate, resp, so2, etc). The five bins had subcategories WO, DR, FC, and MA. There is also an IDNO and ITNO 25.00(BUILD) that implies to be maybe she's being rebooted?
posted by autopilot at 11:56 AM on January 17 [1 favorite]
What was the game / work that Ms Wong was doing? It maybe said MAIN LEVEL and seemed to involving sorting things into bins.
What do the DIP switches on the terminals do?
And was that Ms Casey in the COLD HARBOR macrodata? It looked sort of like her along with some medical data (heart rate, resp, so2, etc). The five bins had subcategories WO, DR, FC, and MA. There is also an IDNO and ITNO 25.00(BUILD) that implies to be maybe she's being rebooted?
posted by autopilot at 11:56 AM on January 17 [1 favorite]
I'm 100% certain that the lady in the COLD HARBOR macrodata is Gemma/Ms. Casey.
posted by simonw at 11:58 AM on January 17
posted by simonw at 11:58 AM on January 17
I was immediately struck by how you can't trust absolutely anything down on the severance floor.
Yes, very strongly this -- and setting this episode entirely on the severed floor really reinforced that queasy feeling. Most particularly with respect to passage of time: to the innies this feels like continuous time but we have no idea how long the time gaps on the outside are.
I don't trust Milchick's "five months" but, hmm, if Helena is an outie mole, some passage of external time between overtime evening / next innie morning would certainly be very convenient for Helena to study Helly's interactions on Milchick's recordings...
Notable that we see two different transitions for Mark: the first was the normal dolly/zoom elevator transitition, subverted here by the immediate transition back. But the second, after Milchick sends him down early after he frames the other Mark, was very different: to black, like a TV shutting off, like Mark's consciousness was shut off. Note also Milchick sends him off with the same "on you go" phrase that he used when sending Miss Casey to the testing floor last season. So, what was happening there? Was Mark basically put into cold storage while Milchick reset the environment on the severed floor?
The lengthy corridor sequence at the beginning: Mark as a lab rat running a maze; but the maze has been changed.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:19 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
Yes, very strongly this -- and setting this episode entirely on the severed floor really reinforced that queasy feeling. Most particularly with respect to passage of time: to the innies this feels like continuous time but we have no idea how long the time gaps on the outside are.
I don't trust Milchick's "five months" but, hmm, if Helena is an outie mole, some passage of external time between overtime evening / next innie morning would certainly be very convenient for Helena to study Helly's interactions on Milchick's recordings...
Notable that we see two different transitions for Mark: the first was the normal dolly/zoom elevator transitition, subverted here by the immediate transition back. But the second, after Milchick sends him down early after he frames the other Mark, was very different: to black, like a TV shutting off, like Mark's consciousness was shut off. Note also Milchick sends him off with the same "on you go" phrase that he used when sending Miss Casey to the testing floor last season. So, what was happening there? Was Mark basically put into cold storage while Milchick reset the environment on the severed floor?
The lengthy corridor sequence at the beginning: Mark as a lab rat running a maze; but the maze has been changed.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:19 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
Also, I suspect Miss Huang is never going to be explained beyond:
Cobel's Milchick's office is an uneasily large crate...
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:22 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
Why are you a child?and that we see shortly after she's introduced that one of the new items in
Because of when I was born.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:22 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
If Helly is actually Helena I don't think that means she re-integrated
Would they really risk sending Helena in as Helly if she doesn't have all the memories of Helly ?
posted by Pendragon at 12:47 PM on January 17
Would they really risk sending Helena in as Helly if she doesn't have all the memories of Helly ?
posted by Pendragon at 12:47 PM on January 17
Everything was on camera. Helena would have been able to see and know everything Helly experienced, so that’s almost the same as being there, at least enough to fool people for a while.
posted by mochapickle at 12:50 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
posted by mochapickle at 12:50 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
Yeah... I just re-watched the episode.... and when "Helly" said she's staying.... the real Helly would not stay inside for anything. She tried to hang herself to leave this place.
That's 100% Helena.
posted by Pendragon at 12:54 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
That's 100% Helena.
posted by Pendragon at 12:54 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
but they recognize the name of a famous author? Hmm.
Because they all saw/read his book.
It's absolutely Helena in the office and not Helly R., which kind of sucks for me because I really wanted to see Helly R tell them all about what happened when she was in the outie world, but makes for great suspense (who will discover her secret, and when?).
Re: seeing the new Macrodats again - if you want to be spoiled for some interesting cast info (that might answer a question or two posed on this page) here's IMDB's cast list for S02E02.
posted by tzikeh at 3:08 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
Because they all saw/read his book.
It's absolutely Helena in the office and not Helly R., which kind of sucks for me because I really wanted to see Helly R tell them all about what happened when she was in the outie world, but makes for great suspense (who will discover her secret, and when?).
Re: seeing the new Macrodats again - if you want to be spoiled for some interesting cast info (that might answer a question or two posed on this page) here's IMDB's cast list for S02E02.
posted by tzikeh at 3:08 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
shortly after she's introduced that one of the new items inGrabbed a screen capture of that, wow that's creepy.Cobel'sMilchick's office is an uneasily large crate...
posted by simonw at 3:23 PM on January 17 [9 favorites]
ALSO
How come none of our four innies is asking how this "revolution" fame came about, being in the news, changing corporate policies, etc., since as far as they all know, Helly talked to one person, Irv talked to no one, and Mark was at a family thing. What "revolution" did they cause, and how? This is a question *they should be asking*. We know Lumon/The Board has done what it's done (if they've done it -- at the very least why they've set up all of this fiction for them like the video and the very fake newspaper article/terrible Photoshop) because of Helly being at the gala, but *they* don't know that.
posted by tzikeh at 3:42 PM on January 17 [8 favorites]
How come none of our four innies is asking how this "revolution" fame came about, being in the news, changing corporate policies, etc., since as far as they all know, Helly talked to one person, Irv talked to no one, and Mark was at a family thing. What "revolution" did they cause, and how? This is a question *they should be asking*. We know Lumon/The Board has done what it's done (if they've done it -- at the very least why they've set up all of this fiction for them like the video and the very fake newspaper article/terrible Photoshop) because of Helly being at the gala, but *they* don't know that.
posted by tzikeh at 3:42 PM on January 17 [8 favorites]
Oh that is a brilliant question, tzikeh. Maybe they are just conditioned to expect there are things happening with their outies that they don’t get to know about?
Watching again and another freeze frame detail caught my eye — a poster in the Break Room saying “Hang In There,” showing a man with his arms stretched peculiarly to the side. This has to be Dylan — right?
posted by eirias at 3:45 PM on January 17
Watching again and another freeze frame detail caught my eye — a poster in the Break Room saying “Hang In There,” showing a man with his arms stretched peculiarly to the side. This has to be Dylan — right?
posted by eirias at 3:45 PM on January 17
a poster in the Break Room saying “Hang In There,” showing a man with his arms stretched peculiarly to the side. This has to be Dylan — right?
100 percent yes.
posted by tzikeh at 4:18 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
100 percent yes.
posted by tzikeh at 4:18 PM on January 17 [5 favorites]
Maybe they are just conditioned to expect there are things happening with their outies that they don’t get to know about?
I mean to a very large extent the innies are conditioned to believe what Lumon tells them, right? They clearly carry concepts of how the outside world works -- "wife", "child" etc; but until overtime night they had no actual experience of the outside world. Their entire life has been in the very deliberately controlled environment of the severed floor -- an environment which treats them essentially as adult children, providing praise and rewards for good behavior, punishment and discipline for bad behavior.
Another direct allusion to this in this episode: the alternates asking Mark what the sky looked like; again, they have conceptual but not experiential knowledge.
So I feel Lumon's explanation doesn't have to be convincing to us; only to them. You did this thing; it had these effects. Particularly as it's so artfully couched in praise and reward: the Macrodat Uprising was a good thing! You did great! Everything is better because of you! Have some fruit leather.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:42 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
I mean to a very large extent the innies are conditioned to believe what Lumon tells them, right? They clearly carry concepts of how the outside world works -- "wife", "child" etc; but until overtime night they had no actual experience of the outside world. Their entire life has been in the very deliberately controlled environment of the severed floor -- an environment which treats them essentially as adult children, providing praise and rewards for good behavior, punishment and discipline for bad behavior.
Another direct allusion to this in this episode: the alternates asking Mark what the sky looked like; again, they have conceptual but not experiential knowledge.
So I feel Lumon's explanation doesn't have to be convincing to us; only to them. You did this thing; it had these effects. Particularly as it's so artfully couched in praise and reward: the Macrodat Uprising was a good thing! You did great! Everything is better because of you! Have some fruit leather.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 4:42 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
So I feel Lumon's explanation doesn't have to be convincing to us; only to them. You did this thing; it had these effects. Particularly as it's so artfully couched in praise and reward: the Macrodat Uprising was a good thing! You did great! Everything is better because of you! Have some fruit leather.
I kind of understand this, but they know what they did (and didn't) do - or at least the three of them who aren't Helena do. I know their understanding of the Outie world is limited, but they are acutely aware of exactly what happened for those twenty minutes, and none of it was even close to revolution-inducing -- except for the missing piece, which is what Helly R said at the gala. Again, I get where you're coming from; I just think this is much too outsized a response to what the Innies know of their time on the outside to be believable, even to them.
posted by tzikeh at 4:47 PM on January 17 [3 favorites]
I kind of understand this, but they know what they did (and didn't) do - or at least the three of them who aren't Helena do. I know their understanding of the Outie world is limited, but they are acutely aware of exactly what happened for those twenty minutes, and none of it was even close to revolution-inducing -- except for the missing piece, which is what Helly R said at the gala. Again, I get where you're coming from; I just think this is much too outsized a response to what the Innies know of their time on the outside to be believable, even to them.
posted by tzikeh at 4:47 PM on January 17 [3 favorites]
Mark didn't do nothing in those 20 minutes, though: he told Devon EVERYTHING. "Ricken knows a lot of high-end journalists in New York." Is that sufficient to convince Mark that he made a difference? I dunno.
But yeah, what effect Helly's speech at the gala had is the information that's being withheld from both innies and us at the moment.
("A night gardener?")
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:11 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
But yeah, what effect Helly's speech at the gala had is the information that's being withheld from both innies and us at the moment.
("A night gardener?")
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 5:11 PM on January 17 [4 favorites]
After a rewatch, I am increasingly convinced that almost everything we are told in this episode is a lie, including the claim that Mrs. Cobel is no longer with the company. That’s why Milchick can’t get her name off the computer. Milchick may or may not be aware this is a lie, though.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:14 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 5:14 PM on January 17 [7 favorites]
Irving's outies' apartment being broken into ("upon examining my attic .. my grandfathers ... box")
I noticed Irving left this detail out when he finally told his story--that his outie had a box with information about where other severed Lumen employees lived, and that's how he found Burt.
the Macrodat Uprising was a good thing! You did great! Everything is better because of you! Have some fruit leather.
I must say, watching that video in 2025, as someone who has edited books and stories for kids about revolutionary figures, published by corporations, sent an actual chill down my spine.
posted by lampoil at 5:42 PM on January 17 [12 favorites]
I noticed Irving left this detail out when he finally told his story--that his outie had a box with information about where other severed Lumen employees lived, and that's how he found Burt.
the Macrodat Uprising was a good thing! You did great! Everything is better because of you! Have some fruit leather.
I must say, watching that video in 2025, as someone who has edited books and stories for kids about revolutionary figures, published by corporations, sent an actual chill down my spine.
posted by lampoil at 5:42 PM on January 17 [12 favorites]
> Maybe Lumon told outtie Irving and Dylan that they would pay them a bigger chunk of money to come back in one day a week, which was also the amount of time they could get out of Helena. The innies have no way of knowing what their work schedule is.
In season 1, Gemma mentioned she'd only been alive for around a hundred hours, though Mark's wife had "died" a couple of years before the series started. We don't know if they have only one severed continuity at a time, or if they can be reset; if innies can be "retired" and moved to new departments.
So outie Mark could come in every day, but only see Our Protagonist Team every week.
posted by Pronoiac at 7:38 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
In season 1, Gemma mentioned she'd only been alive for around a hundred hours, though Mark's wife had "died" a couple of years before the series started. We don't know if they have only one severed continuity at a time, or if they can be reset; if innies can be "retired" and moved to new departments.
So outie Mark could come in every day, but only see Our Protagonist Team every week.
posted by Pronoiac at 7:38 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
Before parsing plot, a few things about the show:
-The scene with Irving and Dylan hugging in the hallway was just wonderful. Vulnerability and intimacy between two men in a way we almost never see on television. Powerful to feel Dylan being present for Dylan's pain. Incredible writing, directing, and acting all around.
-I love every single moment Tramell Tillman is on screen. He's spellbinding. I would crave his approval.
-The performative reforms to the severed environment and innie treatment is such an on-point satire of the post-George Floyd inclusivity performances by corporations. Co-opting revolution like always. The "family visitation room" is a clever way of separating Dylan from the others. Corporations understand that solidarity is always the workers' best weapon against the ruling class, and constantly try to undermine it.
-Only showing us the severed floor really gets across how hellish and powerless being severed is.
As for plot machinations, the big question to me is what changed in the motivations of Dylan's, Irving's, and Helena's outies (putting aside her question for a minute) between when Mark refused to play along with the new team and them returning? Milchick seemed to be operating under the belief that they weren't coming back when Mark returned the first time. And them returning was his condition for cooperating. But what do the other three care about some stranger's innie's demands? So something was done to incentivize their outies to come back. If Helena is back as a mole, okay. So what happened with Outie Irving and Outie Dylan to change their attitude? More money? We have yet to see that money is a motivator for anyone who severs.
Re Helena/Helly, I don't view her not telling them what she saw as evidence that it's not Helly. I can buy that she's afraid they'd turn on her if they found out she's an Egan. Or that she simply feels ashamed to belong to the family that is enslaving them. I also find it plausible that Helly is in love with Mark and so feels some kind of way about him finding his outie's wife, though her motivations are quite muddled. But I do find the computer switch thing compelling. As well as her awkward reaction to Mark's embrace the second she got off the elevator. I'm not saying it's not Helena, I just don't believe it's as obvious as many others do.
I'm increasingly wondering if people on the severed floor really only experiment on or work on exclusively severed floor-related things. The hint from the screen flash at the end is that MDR is refining the personalities of the innies on the training floor. And all we know about O&D is that they curate paintings solely for the severed floor, and a friend inferred (reasonably) that the self-defence cards like the one Dylan took in season 1 are to train O&D staff to protect themselves against another possible attack from another department, as depicted in the painting showing the massacre of O&D by MDR.
Glad we're back. Been a minute.
posted by dry white toast at 7:49 PM on January 17 [6 favorites]
-The scene with Irving and Dylan hugging in the hallway was just wonderful. Vulnerability and intimacy between two men in a way we almost never see on television. Powerful to feel Dylan being present for Dylan's pain. Incredible writing, directing, and acting all around.
-I love every single moment Tramell Tillman is on screen. He's spellbinding. I would crave his approval.
-The performative reforms to the severed environment and innie treatment is such an on-point satire of the post-George Floyd inclusivity performances by corporations. Co-opting revolution like always. The "family visitation room" is a clever way of separating Dylan from the others. Corporations understand that solidarity is always the workers' best weapon against the ruling class, and constantly try to undermine it.
-Only showing us the severed floor really gets across how hellish and powerless being severed is.
As for plot machinations, the big question to me is what changed in the motivations of Dylan's, Irving's, and Helena's outies (putting aside her question for a minute) between when Mark refused to play along with the new team and them returning? Milchick seemed to be operating under the belief that they weren't coming back when Mark returned the first time. And them returning was his condition for cooperating. But what do the other three care about some stranger's innie's demands? So something was done to incentivize their outies to come back. If Helena is back as a mole, okay. So what happened with Outie Irving and Outie Dylan to change their attitude? More money? We have yet to see that money is a motivator for anyone who severs.
Re Helena/Helly, I don't view her not telling them what she saw as evidence that it's not Helly. I can buy that she's afraid they'd turn on her if they found out she's an Egan. Or that she simply feels ashamed to belong to the family that is enslaving them. I also find it plausible that Helly is in love with Mark and so feels some kind of way about him finding his outie's wife, though her motivations are quite muddled. But I do find the computer switch thing compelling. As well as her awkward reaction to Mark's embrace the second she got off the elevator. I'm not saying it's not Helena, I just don't believe it's as obvious as many others do.
I'm increasingly wondering if people on the severed floor really only experiment on or work on exclusively severed floor-related things. The hint from the screen flash at the end is that MDR is refining the personalities of the innies on the training floor. And all we know about O&D is that they curate paintings solely for the severed floor, and a friend inferred (reasonably) that the self-defence cards like the one Dylan took in season 1 are to train O&D staff to protect themselves against another possible attack from another department, as depicted in the painting showing the massacre of O&D by MDR.
Glad we're back. Been a minute.
posted by dry white toast at 7:49 PM on January 17 [6 favorites]
I wonder how long before someone makes a map of Mark's run to wellness.
I might just. That was definitely on my mind when I was watching it.
What is clear to me this season is how Backrooms-influenced the whole show is. And to be frank, I think it will end up proving to be better than whatever official A24 Backrooms movie ends up coming out.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:12 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
I might just. That was definitely on my mind when I was watching it.
What is clear to me this season is how Backrooms-influenced the whole show is. And to be frank, I think it will end up proving to be better than whatever official A24 Backrooms movie ends up coming out.
posted by grumpybear69 at 8:12 PM on January 17 [1 favorite]
According to the Severance podcast Mark's run was filmed over the course of several months - it was something of a production side-project that they fitted in between other scenes.
posted by simonw at 8:24 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
posted by simonw at 8:24 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
Sidenote to the episode itself: In May I visited the Lego corporate headquarters in Denmark (which is distinct from Legoland the amusement park, though still with lots of fun stuff). And it included a basement display that laid out the corporate narrative of the history of the company that was so much like the corporate section of Lumon's Perpetuity Wing (especially the Wall of Smiles) that I was seriously wigged out.
One example: the narrative presents the company's shift to licensing agreements and selling builds of big movie franchise set pieces as a brilliant strategy to reach new audiences without in any way acknowledging that it was motivated by the patent/copywright on Lego's building blocks expiring. Needing a new strategy because of outside realities is perfectly reasonable (and one that Lego has executed very well), but there somehow wasn't room to acknowledge anything besides the visionary wisdom of the corporate overlords in the company's evolution.
posted by dry white toast at 8:58 PM on January 17 [6 favorites]
One example: the narrative presents the company's shift to licensing agreements and selling builds of big movie franchise set pieces as a brilliant strategy to reach new audiences without in any way acknowledging that it was motivated by the patent/copywright on Lego's building blocks expiring. Needing a new strategy because of outside realities is perfectly reasonable (and one that Lego has executed very well), but there somehow wasn't room to acknowledge anything besides the visionary wisdom of the corporate overlords in the company's evolution.
posted by dry white toast at 8:58 PM on January 17 [6 favorites]
Someone on Reddit tried mapping Mark's run, but I think there's room for a competing attempt!
posted by simonw at 9:30 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
posted by simonw at 9:30 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
I really don't think that Helena is posing as an innie. I think she's just ashamed of her outie. In response to Mark saying that Ms Casey is his wife, Helly says words to the effect that innies are not the same as outies - meaning, on the one hand, just because Mark's outie married Miss Casey's outie, that doesn't mean that innie Mark is married to innie Miss Casey. The other layer to that assertion - which the audience knows but Mark doesn't - is that Helena is an Eagan who not only supports severance but wants the entire species to sever, whereas Helly identifies more as an innie with all of their struggles. In other words, Helly is NOT Helena.
Additionally - I don't WANT Helena to be pretending to be an innie. Look, one of the things I like about this show - so much - is that the storytelling is fresh, deliberate, thoughtful, and, occasionally, surprising. Do you really want it to be the case that you figured out season 2's major plot twist within the first 20 minutes of episode 1? That feels disappointing to me and, frankly, below the standards that were established in season 1.
I hope I'm right.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 9:51 PM on January 17 [12 favorites]
Additionally - I don't WANT Helena to be pretending to be an innie. Look, one of the things I like about this show - so much - is that the storytelling is fresh, deliberate, thoughtful, and, occasionally, surprising. Do you really want it to be the case that you figured out season 2's major plot twist within the first 20 minutes of episode 1? That feels disappointing to me and, frankly, below the standards that were established in season 1.
I hope I'm right.
posted by fingers_of_fire at 9:51 PM on January 17 [12 favorites]
I also don't think Helly is a mole - yes, it's true that Helena could have watched all the recordings to know how to act, but I don't think she could have faked things so well. She doesn't think much of her innie or any of the innies.
I also don't think it's at all possible that she could be reintegrated (which could otherwise excuse the above), because the Egans/Board/whoever don't believe it's possible, which is why Cobel was so adamant about convincing them. Their belief seems pretty fervent and cult-like, so even when presented with facts, they'd probably keep disbelieving it. In addition, Petey didn't do so well with his reintegration, and he did believe in it. I don't think the Egans want reintegration to exist whatsoever; it's like their antichrist - not something they'd consider using or potentially harming Helena for.
posted by destructive cactus at 10:13 PM on January 17
I also don't think it's at all possible that she could be reintegrated (which could otherwise excuse the above), because the Egans/Board/whoever don't believe it's possible, which is why Cobel was so adamant about convincing them. Their belief seems pretty fervent and cult-like, so even when presented with facts, they'd probably keep disbelieving it. In addition, Petey didn't do so well with his reintegration, and he did believe in it. I don't think the Egans want reintegration to exist whatsoever; it's like their antichrist - not something they'd consider using or potentially harming Helena for.
posted by destructive cactus at 10:13 PM on January 17
If there were an actual stock market of fan theories, I'd short the “Helly is just Helena pretending to be Helly” with all of my Monopoly money. It seems to have occurred to every single person in this thread after one episode, so it'd be a pretty poor twist if that turned out to be the twist.
I think she lies about her time on the outside because she's ashamed of being an Eagan, and she (probably rightly) fears that nobody will trust her if they find out about her outie identity. Yes, Helly was so viscerally miserable as an innie that she tried to hang herself in an elevator — but she stopped being suicidal when she found that she could channel her hatred of severance into subversive activities.
There's something so insidious about severance, and it's what is laid bare so well in this first episode. Milchick can tell an innie that they have a “choice” about whether they stay or leave, but everyone understands that leaving is equivalent to suicide. Innies are brains in jars, in effect, and a permanent departure would snuff out their consciousnesses. It's not like the choice is between being an innie at Lumon and being an innie on a pleasant walking tour of Carmel-by-the-Sea, California.
Lumon realizes that they can lean into “severance reform” and play at some superficial quality-of-life improvements, since carrots work just as well as sticks for people whose choice is between existing in purgatory and not existing at all.
In fact, I groaned the whole time Milchick dangled the carrot in front of Dylan: a promise (assuredly an empty one) that one day he'll be able to dabble in his outie's life. mochapickle, I think you're right about someone having made a similar Faustian bargain with Irv.
I agree that they're playing fast and loose with the time scale here, though within reason. The unusual amount of time it's taken for us to get a Season 2 means that these actors have aged more since Season 1 than their characters have, but the “five months” that Milchick claims feels about right. But even if outie Irv had gone another decade before allowing his innie to awaken, Irv would've picked back up pounding on the inside of that elevator door, calling for Burt.
I really do understand why this show spends so much time on the severed floor; it's where all the menace is, and it's the only thing you think about when you close your eyes and imagine what the show is. But the outside is where all the intrigue is, to me. It's where all the mysteries get solved. That's why it was so great of a payoff that we got to see the innies suddenly plunged into the world in which they have agency and there are consequences. I know we needed this first episode to ground us back on home turf, but I'm looking forward to next week's episode where we figure out more about outie Mark’s whole deal.
tzikeh: "How come none of our four innies is asking how this "revolution" fame came about, being in the news, changing corporate policies, etc., since as far as they all know, Helly talked to one person, Irv talked to no one, and Mark was at a family thing. What "revolution" did they cause, and how?"
I think this is what Helly was playing at in her story; she knew she was the whistleblower and wanted to hint at a possible explanation for how the truth about severance could've found the outside. (She told some guy who said he'd tell a cop. Not the most plausible story, but probably good enough for your fellow innies, who can't really gainsay anything about how the outie world works.)
When innie Mark spilled the beans to Devon, I think she mentioned that she knew a journalist and could tell them about it — which, for all innie Mark knows, is how news got out.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:17 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
I think she lies about her time on the outside because she's ashamed of being an Eagan, and she (probably rightly) fears that nobody will trust her if they find out about her outie identity. Yes, Helly was so viscerally miserable as an innie that she tried to hang herself in an elevator — but she stopped being suicidal when she found that she could channel her hatred of severance into subversive activities.
There's something so insidious about severance, and it's what is laid bare so well in this first episode. Milchick can tell an innie that they have a “choice” about whether they stay or leave, but everyone understands that leaving is equivalent to suicide. Innies are brains in jars, in effect, and a permanent departure would snuff out their consciousnesses. It's not like the choice is between being an innie at Lumon and being an innie on a pleasant walking tour of Carmel-by-the-Sea, California.
Lumon realizes that they can lean into “severance reform” and play at some superficial quality-of-life improvements, since carrots work just as well as sticks for people whose choice is between existing in purgatory and not existing at all.
In fact, I groaned the whole time Milchick dangled the carrot in front of Dylan: a promise (assuredly an empty one) that one day he'll be able to dabble in his outie's life. mochapickle, I think you're right about someone having made a similar Faustian bargain with Irv.
I agree that they're playing fast and loose with the time scale here, though within reason. The unusual amount of time it's taken for us to get a Season 2 means that these actors have aged more since Season 1 than their characters have, but the “five months” that Milchick claims feels about right. But even if outie Irv had gone another decade before allowing his innie to awaken, Irv would've picked back up pounding on the inside of that elevator door, calling for Burt.
I really do understand why this show spends so much time on the severed floor; it's where all the menace is, and it's the only thing you think about when you close your eyes and imagine what the show is. But the outside is where all the intrigue is, to me. It's where all the mysteries get solved. That's why it was so great of a payoff that we got to see the innies suddenly plunged into the world in which they have agency and there are consequences. I know we needed this first episode to ground us back on home turf, but I'm looking forward to next week's episode where we figure out more about outie Mark’s whole deal.
tzikeh: "How come none of our four innies is asking how this "revolution" fame came about, being in the news, changing corporate policies, etc., since as far as they all know, Helly talked to one person, Irv talked to no one, and Mark was at a family thing. What "revolution" did they cause, and how?"
I think this is what Helly was playing at in her story; she knew she was the whistleblower and wanted to hint at a possible explanation for how the truth about severance could've found the outside. (She told some guy who said he'd tell a cop. Not the most plausible story, but probably good enough for your fellow innies, who can't really gainsay anything about how the outie world works.)
When innie Mark spilled the beans to Devon, I think she mentioned that she knew a journalist and could tell them about it — which, for all innie Mark knows, is how news got out.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:17 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
Also: I know the innies are basically lab rats, and until that shot of Miss Casey at the end of this episode, I'd have put some money down on the idea that all the “work” they’re doing is just busywork that isn't itself connected to anything insidious. (I think the monotony is the point; that's the logical end of a cult that values work for work's sake.)
But the innie supervisors feel just as lab-ratty as the innies themselves. The board fucked with Cobel all last season and now they're fucking with Milchick — whose job must basically be an hour of actual work per day if he can spend that much time stressing out about whose name is on the goddamn screensaver. I predicted a face turn from Milchick at the end of last season and was burned hard, but somehow I'll con myself into thinking it'll happen this season.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:24 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
But the innie supervisors feel just as lab-ratty as the innies themselves. The board fucked with Cobel all last season and now they're fucking with Milchick — whose job must basically be an hour of actual work per day if he can spend that much time stressing out about whose name is on the goddamn screensaver. I predicted a face turn from Milchick at the end of last season and was burned hard, but somehow I'll con myself into thinking it'll happen this season.
posted by savetheclocktower at 10:24 PM on January 17 [2 favorites]
But what do the other three care about some stranger's innie's demands?
I do not believe that Milchick was telling Mark the truth about why the other three weren't there. I also do not believe it's been "five months". Aside from the screensaver business, Milchick is still unpacking banker's boxes the first time we see him in the office. There's a floor lamp wrapped in plastic, boxes everywhere, a stack of chairs, and the computer is against the wall. When he invites Dylan in to his office, the room is tidy, the boxes and the cart are gone, the computer is on his desk, and the floor lamp is unwrapped. All of these things should have happened months before.
It seems to have occurred to every single person in this thread after one episode, so it'd be a pretty poor twist if that turned out to be the twist.
I don't know that Helena being on the floor instead of Helly R is necessarily meant to be a "twist", in the sense that no one watching realizes or expects it. I think we're meant to be suspicious. Having rewatched the episode, there's not really a moment that Helena/Helly is reacting or exclaiming about regular Lumon stuff without carefully watching her colleagues first.
Yes, Helly was so viscerally miserable as an innie that she tried to hang herself in an elevator — but she stopped being suicidal when she found that she could channel her hatred of severance into subversive activities.
If Helly R is game for subversive activities, it's entirely possible her outie would be just as intrigued with infiltrating Macrodata Refinement...
Anyway, aside from all that- what was with all those "perks" in the video actually being kind of tortuous? Bobbing for pineapple? A pineapple is a heavy thing with a tough, poky skin. Irv's cartoon was sweating and unhappy in the funhouse mirror room.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:53 PM on January 17 [9 favorites]
I do not believe that Milchick was telling Mark the truth about why the other three weren't there. I also do not believe it's been "five months". Aside from the screensaver business, Milchick is still unpacking banker's boxes the first time we see him in the office. There's a floor lamp wrapped in plastic, boxes everywhere, a stack of chairs, and the computer is against the wall. When he invites Dylan in to his office, the room is tidy, the boxes and the cart are gone, the computer is on his desk, and the floor lamp is unwrapped. All of these things should have happened months before.
It seems to have occurred to every single person in this thread after one episode, so it'd be a pretty poor twist if that turned out to be the twist.
I don't know that Helena being on the floor instead of Helly R is necessarily meant to be a "twist", in the sense that no one watching realizes or expects it. I think we're meant to be suspicious. Having rewatched the episode, there's not really a moment that Helena/Helly is reacting or exclaiming about regular Lumon stuff without carefully watching her colleagues first.
Yes, Helly was so viscerally miserable as an innie that she tried to hang herself in an elevator — but she stopped being suicidal when she found that she could channel her hatred of severance into subversive activities.
If Helly R is game for subversive activities, it's entirely possible her outie would be just as intrigued with infiltrating Macrodata Refinement...
Anyway, aside from all that- what was with all those "perks" in the video actually being kind of tortuous? Bobbing for pineapple? A pineapple is a heavy thing with a tough, poky skin. Irv's cartoon was sweating and unhappy in the funhouse mirror room.
posted by oneirodynia at 11:53 PM on January 17 [9 favorites]
And was that Ms Casey in the COLD HARBOR macrodata? It looked sort of like her along with some medical data (heart rate, resp, so2, etc). The five bins had subcategories WO, DR, FC, and MA. There is also an IDNO and ITNO 25.00(BUILD) that implies to be maybe she's being rebooted?
Mark is "refining" Miss Casey. I just watched and in this scene boxes 2-5 on Mark's screen have the same percentages as boxes 2-5 on the image of Miss Casey*, and both screens are titled "Cold Harbor". When he refines some data, the progress bar on her screen ticks up from 67% to 68%.
I think the Macro Data Refiners have individuals they need to be close to in order to be able to refine their data, which is why they're keeping Mark happy for now and bringing back his team. It's possible Helly is supposed to be refining her father. Maybe Irving is also refining his (presumed dead) father.
It's not clear to me how this works exactly- does Lumon stage accidents assuming they'll be able to entrap a nearby loved one and convince them to undergo severance?
*Not sure why box 1 is different?
posted by oneirodynia at 12:19 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Mark is "refining" Miss Casey. I just watched and in this scene boxes 2-5 on Mark's screen have the same percentages as boxes 2-5 on the image of Miss Casey*, and both screens are titled "Cold Harbor". When he refines some data, the progress bar on her screen ticks up from 67% to 68%.
I think the Macro Data Refiners have individuals they need to be close to in order to be able to refine their data, which is why they're keeping Mark happy for now and bringing back his team. It's possible Helly is supposed to be refining her father. Maybe Irving is also refining his (presumed dead) father.
It's not clear to me how this works exactly- does Lumon stage accidents assuming they'll be able to entrap a nearby loved one and convince them to undergo severance?
*Not sure why box 1 is different?
posted by oneirodynia at 12:19 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Does anyone else think Mark is reintegrated? If his innie couldn’t access outie memories, but his outie could access everything, it world explain both outie Mark’s reason for returning and innie Mark’s inability to talk about it. I don’t think Reghabi would have failed to follow up on as promising as ally as Mark.
posted by Cogito at 7:18 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
posted by Cogito at 7:18 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Anyway, aside from all that- what was with all those "perks" in the video actually being kind of tortuous? Bobbing for pineapple?
It’s all horrific! In the video, the bobber’s hands are bound.
posted by mochapickle at 7:44 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
It’s all horrific! In the video, the bobber’s hands are bound.
posted by mochapickle at 7:44 AM on January 18 [8 favorites]
mochapickle: It’s all horrific! In the video, the bobber’s hands are bound.
Just like the old man (Kier?) in Miss Huang's game after she "wins."
oneirodynia: I don't know that Helena being on the floor instead of Helly R is necessarily meant to be a "twist", in the sense that no one watching realizes or expects it. I think we're meant to be suspicious. Having rewatched the episode, there's not really a moment that Helena/Helly is reacting or exclaiming about regular Lumon stuff without carefully watching her colleagues first.
I agree with this. I still think it's more likely than not that "Helly"'s Helena, but that this uncertainty is supposed to be just part of the plot - that we know from the beginning that something is off/unsettling about the reunion, rather than Helena's presence being a big reveal (like her parentage last season). (Although I was definitely not clever enough to pick up on azarbayejani's insight about the switch.)
I also really like oneirodynia's theory, I think the Macro Data Refiners have individuals they need to be close to in order to be able to refine their data, which is why they're keeping Mark happy for now and bringing back his team. This at least gives a plausible explanation as to why Lumon would invest so much in retaining these four particular people (or Mark specifically).
That said, it doesn't explain why the outies would keep coming back, as dry white toast mentioned (or at least Irv and Mark, and depending on who Helly is, Helly; Dylan would just keeping going to work as usual, assuming that there wasn't any actual big stir because of Helly's outburst). I have two theories right now - that they have kidnapped the two/three of them (I know that's extreme), or the two/three of them have either collectively or separately decided that they want to know what's going on with Lumon (Irv's already trying to do this, outie Mark could be working with that investigative journalist). At first I was considering the theory that this episode is really just going on in Mark's head, but the fact that there was that great scene with Irv and Dylan suggested that they existed outside of his perception.
Also, rock steady, 100% agreed that Ms. Cobel is still around, and Milchick is being toyed with as well.
All in all, I'm so glad this show is back. See you next episode!
posted by nightcoast at 10:36 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
Just like the old man (Kier?) in Miss Huang's game after she "wins."
oneirodynia: I don't know that Helena being on the floor instead of Helly R is necessarily meant to be a "twist", in the sense that no one watching realizes or expects it. I think we're meant to be suspicious. Having rewatched the episode, there's not really a moment that Helena/Helly is reacting or exclaiming about regular Lumon stuff without carefully watching her colleagues first.
I agree with this. I still think it's more likely than not that "Helly"'s Helena, but that this uncertainty is supposed to be just part of the plot - that we know from the beginning that something is off/unsettling about the reunion, rather than Helena's presence being a big reveal (like her parentage last season). (Although I was definitely not clever enough to pick up on azarbayejani's insight about the switch.)
I also really like oneirodynia's theory, I think the Macro Data Refiners have individuals they need to be close to in order to be able to refine their data, which is why they're keeping Mark happy for now and bringing back his team. This at least gives a plausible explanation as to why Lumon would invest so much in retaining these four particular people (or Mark specifically).
That said, it doesn't explain why the outies would keep coming back, as dry white toast mentioned (or at least Irv and Mark, and depending on who Helly is, Helly; Dylan would just keeping going to work as usual, assuming that there wasn't any actual big stir because of Helly's outburst). I have two theories right now - that they have kidnapped the two/three of them (I know that's extreme), or the two/three of them have either collectively or separately decided that they want to know what's going on with Lumon (Irv's already trying to do this, outie Mark could be working with that investigative journalist). At first I was considering the theory that this episode is really just going on in Mark's head, but the fact that there was that great scene with Irv and Dylan suggested that they existed outside of his perception.
Also, rock steady, 100% agreed that Ms. Cobel is still around, and Milchick is being toyed with as well.
All in all, I'm so glad this show is back. See you next episode!
posted by nightcoast at 10:36 AM on January 18 [4 favorites]
Another thing that points to Helena being the one on the severed floor that I was thinking about while lying in bed last night, is that a severed person is not going to find a nature documentary "boring"- they've never seen that stuff. They wouldn't even find their own apartment boring- it's all new, and it's all clues to who they are. This was driven home by Gwendolyn Y asking Mark what the sky looked like.
posted by oneirodynia at 10:37 AM on January 18 [16 favorites]
posted by oneirodynia at 10:37 AM on January 18 [16 favorites]
Also, rock steady, 100% agreed that Ms. Cobel is still around, and Milchick is being toyed with as well.
Right? And adding to my list of troubling work parallels:
4. The inherent sadism of middle management
posted by mochapickle at 11:01 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Right? And adding to my list of troubling work parallels:
4. The inherent sadism of middle management
posted by mochapickle at 11:01 AM on January 18 [3 favorites]
Sorta surprised to see nobody speculating yet that Ms. Huang is Ms. Casey in disguise - clearly on the Severed floors reality doesn't quite work according to the same rules as upstairs. Or could be Ms. Cobel. But I don't think she's actually a child - who would let their child get severed?? Not to mention child labor laws...
My read on Irv is that out of any of them, he's had to face the fact that their Severed life is the only life any of them can ever have. He's not going to get Burt back if he leaves - he will in a sense just die. So he'll stick around since at least he has friends here.
posted by coffeecat at 11:16 AM on January 18
My read on Irv is that out of any of them, he's had to face the fact that their Severed life is the only life any of them can ever have. He's not going to get Burt back if he leaves - he will in a sense just die. So he'll stick around since at least he has friends here.
posted by coffeecat at 11:16 AM on January 18
I don't think Ms. Huang is severed - Milchick isn't severed, Cobel isn't severed, Graner wasn't severed - none of the people meant to 'mind the innies' were severed except for Casey. Unless Huang was lying, she even said she used to be a crossing guard. That said, I don't really think they'd let kids be crossing guards, but who knows.
My theories will most likely prove wrong, but I'm trying to base them on what we've seen so far: we haven't seen (Lumon-sanctioned, at least) reintegration, memory resets, 'cold storage' of innies, or personality transfers. At least, I THINK.
posted by destructive cactus at 11:28 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
My theories will most likely prove wrong, but I'm trying to base them on what we've seen so far: we haven't seen (Lumon-sanctioned, at least) reintegration, memory resets, 'cold storage' of innies, or personality transfers. At least, I THINK.
posted by destructive cactus at 11:28 AM on January 18 [1 favorite]
TV reviewer Emily St. James had a nice skeet thread recently:
That said, if this is really Helena instead of Helly, I wonder if and when we will ever see Helly again - presumably they interrogated her, but otherwise, why would they ever give her a reason to exist?
posted by nightcoast at 11:41 AM on January 18
There are great season twos that keep plot momentum going BY digging into character more. Those are the ones we remember. But then there are a lot of season twos like Mr. Robot season two (one I like, to be clear) where the plot slows WAY down. But it's in service of fleshing out the supporting cast. And, like, Mr. Robot needed to flesh out its supporting cast at that juncture. It was the right creative call, and it set them up well for the following two seasons, which are terrific.I feel like actually most of the characters we don't know well yet are outies or outside-of-Lumon personas, like off-the-clock Milchick, secret agent Irv, family man Dylan, and scion Helena. I wonder if this episode was meant to slow things down after the heartracing finale last season, and to set up the innies so that we can leave their story to the side for the time being, and turn next to the outside world and its stories. Or if we're in for more claustrophobia.
That said, if this is really Helena instead of Helly, I wonder if and when we will ever see Helly again - presumably they interrogated her, but otherwise, why would they ever give her a reason to exist?
posted by nightcoast at 11:41 AM on January 18
One at we might see Helly again is if they break into the security room (almost certainly a whole lot harder now than it was) and use one of the other protocols to reactivate her chip in the basement level.
posted by simonw at 11:56 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
posted by simonw at 11:56 AM on January 18 [2 favorites]
It'd be fascinating if Helly's chip is tied to Mark's somehow. Like, if they turn Helly's innie on, the switch automatically turns Mark's innie off. They'd be strangers.
posted by mochapickle at 12:08 PM on January 18
posted by mochapickle at 12:08 PM on January 18
I'm debating whether to listen to the podcasts, or to make automated transcripts and read those instead. And then, if I can post transcripts to the Severance wiki or if I should go elsewhere.
posted by Pronoiac at 2:29 PM on January 18
posted by Pronoiac at 2:29 PM on January 18
That said, I don't really think they'd let kids be crossing guards, but who knows.
They did at my school, once you were in 6th grade. that was a long time ago though!
At any rate, I'm starting to think that the business of Lumon is at least partly working to bring dead people back to life, with the big goal of bringing Kier Eagan back to life. Though I agree that most people in charge of the Innies have not been severed, that kid-sized box in Milchick's office is raising questions for me about Ms. Huong. Maybe she was hit and killed in her crossing guard job, and she's a slightly more evolved part-time Innie than Miss Casey. I think James Kier might be one of these people too. Both he and Miss Casey talk in the same not-quite-all-there sort of way.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:48 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
They did at my school, once you were in 6th grade. that was a long time ago though!
At any rate, I'm starting to think that the business of Lumon is at least partly working to bring dead people back to life, with the big goal of bringing Kier Eagan back to life. Though I agree that most people in charge of the Innies have not been severed, that kid-sized box in Milchick's office is raising questions for me about Ms. Huong. Maybe she was hit and killed in her crossing guard job, and she's a slightly more evolved part-time Innie than Miss Casey. I think James Kier might be one of these people too. Both he and Miss Casey talk in the same not-quite-all-there sort of way.
posted by oneirodynia at 2:48 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
I recommend listening to the podcasts - the interviews with the actors (particularly Tramell Tillman in the most recent episode) benefit from hearing their tone of voice. I run then at 1.5x in Overcast though because I'm impatient!
posted by simonw at 3:37 PM on January 18
posted by simonw at 3:37 PM on January 18
I had the terrifying thought that Ms. Huang is Mark and Gemma's daughter.
posted by Pendragon at 3:42 PM on January 18 [14 favorites]
posted by Pendragon at 3:42 PM on January 18 [14 favorites]
So about the opening sequence:
Listening to it I was like, oh damn, this is perfect, it’s the bridge from Les McCann’s cover of “The ‘In’ Crowd”, just hidden enough not to beat you over the head with it.
Except Les McCann didn’t do the jazz cover of The In Crowd, that was the Ramsey Lewis Trio.
But actually it was Les McCann, and a song called “Burnin’ Coal”
I love this show
posted by thecaddy at 7:30 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
Listening to it I was like, oh damn, this is perfect, it’s the bridge from Les McCann’s cover of “The ‘In’ Crowd”, just hidden enough not to beat you over the head with it.
Except Les McCann didn’t do the jazz cover of The In Crowd, that was the Ramsey Lewis Trio.
But actually it was Les McCann, and a song called “Burnin’ Coal”
I love this show
posted by thecaddy at 7:30 PM on January 18 [4 favorites]
So what happened with Outie Irving and Outie Dylan to change their attitude?
Outie Dylan has no idea that Innie Dylan freed the other Innies.
I forget how Irv's Innies awakening ended. Did he actually knock on Burt's door? If so, then what happened?
I believe Outie Irv and Outie Burt had met previously and suspect Outie Burt is the reason Outie Irv took the Lumon job in the first place.
posted by dobbs at 7:56 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
Outie Dylan has no idea that Innie Dylan freed the other Innies.
I forget how Irv's Innies awakening ended. Did he actually knock on Burt's door? If so, then what happened?
I believe Outie Irv and Outie Burt had met previously and suspect Outie Burt is the reason Outie Irv took the Lumon job in the first place.
posted by dobbs at 7:56 PM on January 18 [2 favorites]
I'm debating whether to listen to the podcasts, or to make automated transcripts and read those instead
The podcasts already have generated transcripts. In the Podcasts app, go to the show page. Click the three dots next to an episode. I think it takes a couple of days for them to appear. You can copy/paste the text elsewhere for easier reading.
posted by mikepop at 9:49 PM on January 18
The podcasts already have generated transcripts. In the Podcasts app, go to the show page. Click the three dots next to an episode. I think it takes a couple of days for them to appear. You can copy/paste the text elsewhere for easier reading.
posted by mikepop at 9:49 PM on January 18
god I love so much the way that they started this season with Mark making a very long trip through the halls again, but in a profoundly different manner
posted by DoctorFedora at 1:52 AM on January 19 [2 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 1:52 AM on January 19 [2 favorites]
I just spotted this line from Kier Eagan in episode 3:
posted by simonw at 3:02 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]
In my life, I have identified four components, which I call tempers, from which are derived every human soul. Woe. Frolic. Dread. Malice. Each man’s character is defined by the precise ratio that resides in him.Feels very relevant to how macrodata refining works.
posted by simonw at 3:02 PM on January 19 [4 favorites]
Oh that quote about the tempers does seem relevant! The five bins had subcategories:
WO: Woe
DR: Dread
FC: Frolic
MA: Malice
posted by autopilot at 4:07 PM on January 19 [8 favorites]
WO: Woe
DR: Dread
FC: Frolic
MA: Malice
posted by autopilot at 4:07 PM on January 19 [8 favorites]
Oh that quote about the tempers does seem relevant! The five bins had subcategories:
WO: Woe
DR: Dread
FC: Frolic
MA: Malice
Ah, I thought we already discussed that, but I guess it was not in this thread but from another one last season. But yeah, that's a large part of why I think the refiners are refining people close to them, and why it might be important that a refiner needs to have a relationship with the person being refined.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:11 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
WO: Woe
DR: Dread
FC: Frolic
MA: Malice
Ah, I thought we already discussed that, but I guess it was not in this thread but from another one last season. But yeah, that's a large part of why I think the refiners are refining people close to them, and why it might be important that a refiner needs to have a relationship with the person being refined.
posted by oneirodynia at 5:11 PM on January 19 [1 favorite]
Folks, I've had 4 days of frustration and 4 calls to Apple because I can't log into an existing account or make a new one in order to restart my subscription.
If anyone has ideas on how I can see this episode while apple gets it's sh*t together, I'd appreciate it. (I'm one of the Original Viewers, so it's been awhile.) You could memail me.
posted by NorthernLite at 5:43 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]
If anyone has ideas on how I can see this episode while apple gets it's sh*t together, I'd appreciate it. (I'm one of the Original Viewers, so it's been awhile.) You could memail me.
posted by NorthernLite at 5:43 PM on January 19 [2 favorites]
Uh folks
WO: Woe: Mark S is mourning his wife
DR: Dread: Irv has a LOT of darkness in his apartment
FC: Frolic: Dylan was previously a very happy-go-lucky dude
MA: Malice: Helly’s outie (currently posing as her innie) does not have anyone’s best interests in mind
posted by thecaddy at 8:55 PM on January 19 [9 favorites]
WO: Woe: Mark S is mourning his wife
DR: Dread: Irv has a LOT of darkness in his apartment
FC: Frolic: Dylan was previously a very happy-go-lucky dude
MA: Malice: Helly’s outie (currently posing as her innie) does not have anyone’s best interests in mind
posted by thecaddy at 8:55 PM on January 19 [9 favorites]
On reflection we must have talked about this in season one—but it’s still probably worth bringing up again this season.
posted by thecaddy at 9:42 PM on January 19
posted by thecaddy at 9:42 PM on January 19
I gotta say I called it, in S01E01 (or 2) when Milkshake greeted Helena outside the Lumon building with "we're so glad that you're here", I said "She has to be one of the company owners", i.e., an Eagan. My wife didn't believe me.
How did Hellie react when Mark hugged her as she got off the elevator; I think she was surprised and did not hug back, I think that's more evidence that she's Helena spying on the group.
Also, with the New Macrodats (who were made up of too many famous actors to not come back later), I could have sworn the refining room was different colors from Mark S' original area -- it was still the greenish/yellowish hue but it looked different, like the lighting was off or something, I think that was an entirely different location, different building, it WAS in Wyoming or wherever.
I find it interesting that the little girl is apparently taking the place of the previous secretary, who was always on the phone to the board (too lazy to look up her name) -- the little girl is severed, we think? Was the secretary severed before too? We saw her at the gala, but not enough to tell if she was severed or not. And who's filling Milkshake's role with his "promotion", or even the security guy who was killed in S01 -- there's roles in this very structured organization that have not been shown to be filled, indicating either reorganization or people we have yet to see.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:58 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]
How did Hellie react when Mark hugged her as she got off the elevator; I think she was surprised and did not hug back, I think that's more evidence that she's Helena spying on the group.
Also, with the New Macrodats (who were made up of too many famous actors to not come back later), I could have sworn the refining room was different colors from Mark S' original area -- it was still the greenish/yellowish hue but it looked different, like the lighting was off or something, I think that was an entirely different location, different building, it WAS in Wyoming or wherever.
I find it interesting that the little girl is apparently taking the place of the previous secretary, who was always on the phone to the board (too lazy to look up her name) -- the little girl is severed, we think? Was the secretary severed before too? We saw her at the gala, but not enough to tell if she was severed or not. And who's filling Milkshake's role with his "promotion", or even the security guy who was killed in S01 -- there's roles in this very structured organization that have not been shown to be filled, indicating either reorganization or people we have yet to see.
posted by AzraelBrown at 8:58 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]
The previous secretary-like person is listed on Wikipedia as: “Natalie, Lumon's PR representative and speaker for the mysterious Board.” She only showed up when the board had something to say to Ms Cobel.
posted by umber vowel at 9:02 AM on January 20 [3 favorites]
posted by umber vowel at 9:02 AM on January 20 [3 favorites]
New things I am wondering about:
Why did Dylan claim, in his private conversation with Irv, to have supported his flirtation with Burt G? Is Dylan just retconning his own actions in some kind of loyalty pledge? Or is there something fucky there?
What are the Board’s goals? If it’s really true that Mark’s pleading is what got the others brought back, why? Why worry about pleasing Mark, why not just fire everyone? Obviously there’s an anthropic principle like thing in effect (we got a second season, it would have been hard to do that without Mark coming back) but I’m curious if they have an in-universe reason that this makes sense. Maybe Helly’s outburst made it unsafe to fire those particular people while Congress had their eye on the company?
posted by eirias at 10:39 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]
Why did Dylan claim, in his private conversation with Irv, to have supported his flirtation with Burt G? Is Dylan just retconning his own actions in some kind of loyalty pledge? Or is there something fucky there?
What are the Board’s goals? If it’s really true that Mark’s pleading is what got the others brought back, why? Why worry about pleasing Mark, why not just fire everyone? Obviously there’s an anthropic principle like thing in effect (we got a second season, it would have been hard to do that without Mark coming back) but I’m curious if they have an in-universe reason that this makes sense. Maybe Helly’s outburst made it unsafe to fire those particular people while Congress had their eye on the company?
posted by eirias at 10:39 AM on January 20 [1 favorite]
I think Mark is somehow The Key to whatever it is they're doing, so they're placating him because that's what it takes. (Either that, or they're balancing his frolic, malice, woe and dread and they needed to top up his frolic.)
And I'd been wondering about Dylan, too! He seemed Extra Super Dylan-y. Helly impersonating Helena would be such an obvious twist, right? What if there's also a swap from Outie Dylan... It would explain his horror at his portrayal in the corporate video and being so weirdly mad about the belt.
posted by mochapickle at 11:51 AM on January 20
And I'd been wondering about Dylan, too! He seemed Extra Super Dylan-y. Helly impersonating Helena would be such an obvious twist, right? What if there's also a swap from Outie Dylan... It would explain his horror at his portrayal in the corporate video and being so weirdly mad about the belt.
posted by mochapickle at 11:51 AM on January 20
On rewatch:
No title sequence on this episode, just a title card. I wonder why? Maybe because the title sequence is all about the innie/outie duality whereas this episode was focused entirely on the innies?
On that though: Mark holding a bunch of Mark balloons was a very definite wink towards the title sequence.
On the "Helly's lying because she's ashamed" theory: what reason does she have to be ashamed here? It's not her fault that Helana's an Eagan. If anything, WHAT THE FUCK indignation would feel more in-character for the Helly we knew in S1? (Also, the other innies already know that her outie is monstrous: they all saw the "I am a person. You are not." video message.)
Would not Helly's knowledge that her outie is an Eagan be incendiary if it were revealed on the inside? I feel like management have much more interest in suppressing that information than Helly does.
It's Helly that first points out that the security camera in MDR is gone; and it's Helly that repeats Milchick's statement that the break room has no microphones. Maybe just coincidence, but interesting. (I don't believe for a moment that they're no longer surveilled; it's just more covert now.)
Names: it's interesting that Helena/Helly seems to be the only severed employee that got a different first name on the inside? Except arguably Pete/Petey. I feel that was probably a narrative choice in S1 to make it clearer when management are talking about her outie vs innie, but it seems convenient going forward too -- if Helly is an outie mole now, is she going to slip up by using, or responding to, the wrong name?
The Macrodat Uprising animation: on rewatch, it's very noticeable how little it says. The Macrodats were "dissatisfied with their severed lives"; but it says nothing about why, it says nothing about what the uprising actually was, and it says nothing about what it achieved on the outside: it speaks only to the inside, and even then when it speaks of "bounteous reforms" it mentions only increased perks. They're "going to show this to every innie who sets foot in the building" and -- sure, because it says nothing meaningful.
There's a goat drinking from the reflecting pool at the end of the animation.
I still wonder if it's Mark specifically that Lumon are most interested in. The reset from alternate-Macrodats to old-team-back-again seemed like it was entirely to satisfy Mark -- or to set up a new Prisoner-esque experiment on him, after he rejected the alternates. Is there something special about Mark, or about Mark's work product?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:53 AM on January 20 [6 favorites]
No title sequence on this episode, just a title card. I wonder why? Maybe because the title sequence is all about the innie/outie duality whereas this episode was focused entirely on the innies?
On that though: Mark holding a bunch of Mark balloons was a very definite wink towards the title sequence.
On the "Helly's lying because she's ashamed" theory: what reason does she have to be ashamed here? It's not her fault that Helana's an Eagan. If anything, WHAT THE FUCK indignation would feel more in-character for the Helly we knew in S1? (Also, the other innies already know that her outie is monstrous: they all saw the "I am a person. You are not." video message.)
Would not Helly's knowledge that her outie is an Eagan be incendiary if it were revealed on the inside? I feel like management have much more interest in suppressing that information than Helly does.
It's Helly that first points out that the security camera in MDR is gone; and it's Helly that repeats Milchick's statement that the break room has no microphones. Maybe just coincidence, but interesting. (I don't believe for a moment that they're no longer surveilled; it's just more covert now.)
Names: it's interesting that Helena/Helly seems to be the only severed employee that got a different first name on the inside? Except arguably Pete/Petey. I feel that was probably a narrative choice in S1 to make it clearer when management are talking about her outie vs innie, but it seems convenient going forward too -- if Helly is an outie mole now, is she going to slip up by using, or responding to, the wrong name?
The Macrodat Uprising animation: on rewatch, it's very noticeable how little it says. The Macrodats were "dissatisfied with their severed lives"; but it says nothing about why, it says nothing about what the uprising actually was, and it says nothing about what it achieved on the outside: it speaks only to the inside, and even then when it speaks of "bounteous reforms" it mentions only increased perks. They're "going to show this to every innie who sets foot in the building" and -- sure, because it says nothing meaningful.
There's a goat drinking from the reflecting pool at the end of the animation.
I still wonder if it's Mark specifically that Lumon are most interested in. The reset from alternate-Macrodats to old-team-back-again seemed like it was entirely to satisfy Mark -- or to set up a new Prisoner-esque experiment on him, after he rejected the alternates. Is there something special about Mark, or about Mark's work product?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 11:53 AM on January 20 [6 favorites]
I forget how Irv's Innies awakening ended. Did he actually knock on Burt's door? If so, then what happened?
Irv was shown banging on Burt's door and yelling Burt's name at the moment the Overtime Contingency ended. We don't know what happened on the outside after that.
The elevator awakenings in this follow directly on from the end of Overtime -- so Mark arrives still looking shellshocked by the "she's alive" revelation and runs to Wellness to look for Ms. Casey; Irv arrives still banging and yelling for Burt. Helly was speaking on stage at the gala at the end of Overtime; a less obvious transition for her?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:00 PM on January 20
Irv was shown banging on Burt's door and yelling Burt's name at the moment the Overtime Contingency ended. We don't know what happened on the outside after that.
The elevator awakenings in this follow directly on from the end of Overtime -- so Mark arrives still looking shellshocked by the "she's alive" revelation and runs to Wellness to look for Ms. Casey; Irv arrives still banging and yelling for Burt. Helly was speaking on stage at the gala at the end of Overtime; a less obvious transition for her?
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:00 PM on January 20
being so weirdly mad about the belt
I feel S1 Dylan was always quite protective of his stuff too? His desk ornaments, his drawer full of earned perks.
It strikes me that the innies really have very little in the way of personal possessions: just the few earned items on and in their desks. Even the clothes they're wearing aren't really theirs.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:30 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]
I feel S1 Dylan was always quite protective of his stuff too? His desk ornaments, his drawer full of earned perks.
It strikes me that the innies really have very little in the way of personal possessions: just the few earned items on and in their desks. Even the clothes they're wearing aren't really theirs.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:30 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]
I find it interesting that the little girl is apparently taking the place of the previous secretary
Her name is Ms. Huang and she's the Deputy Manager. Her job is more like Milchick's previous job and at one point she tells mark she's their supervisor.
Helly was speaking on stage at the gala at the end of Overtime; a less obvious transition for her?
What's weird about this is that Helly/Helena says she was having a boring time in her apartment watching a documentary and then she talks to the "night gardener"- in which case, why was she racing out of the elevator as if she were being chased? It makes it seem as if her night gardener story was made up on the fly.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:35 PM on January 20 [4 favorites]
Her name is Ms. Huang and she's the Deputy Manager. Her job is more like Milchick's previous job and at one point she tells mark she's their supervisor.
Helly was speaking on stage at the gala at the end of Overtime; a less obvious transition for her?
What's weird about this is that Helly/Helena says she was having a boring time in her apartment watching a documentary and then she talks to the "night gardener"- in which case, why was she racing out of the elevator as if she were being chased? It makes it seem as if her night gardener story was made up on the fly.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:35 PM on January 20 [4 favorites]
Oh, one more that I forgot above: the comment about the night gardener "maybe he has a different job during the day" felt a little like the show winking at us.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:38 PM on January 20 [2 favorites]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:38 PM on January 20 [2 favorites]
I think that was an entirely different location, different building, it WAS in Wyoming or wherever.
I've been thinking about this, thanks to Milchick unpacking his office on day one even though he claims it's been five months since the events of the season finale/Cobel's firing. That doesn't just open up the possibility that he's lying about the timeline, but also that he could be lying about the location (instead of, or as well as, the timeline). He could be unpacking not because he changed offices, but because he changed buildings. There's also the detail that the new team are from different locations, so one way or another, some people have moved.
One detail against this theory would be the computer having Ms. Cobel's name in it--seems like that would be less likely if it were an entirely new office, but not necessarily.
An ambiguous detail regarding this theory would be the state of the wellness center. It looks to us like the lettering has been removed--making it likely to be the same wellness center as season 1--but it also looks a little like the inner doors haven't even been built yet.
Presumably we'll soon get a glimpse of what happened in the outside world after the events of the finale, and that will give us a lot more information about whether it's possible for our innies to have moved. But I'll note that without Cobel, we are missing the character that had the most continuity between the two worlds. It could be fairly simple to stagger timelines for a while without it being overt.
Having absorbed a lot of theories from various corners of the internet this week, I notice there are a lot out there whose assumptions about what Lumen is doing amount, basically, to a warmed-over variation on the conceit behind the film Get Out. I do hope that whatever ends up happening, it's something distinct from that.
posted by lampoil at 2:43 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]
I've been thinking about this, thanks to Milchick unpacking his office on day one even though he claims it's been five months since the events of the season finale/Cobel's firing. That doesn't just open up the possibility that he's lying about the timeline, but also that he could be lying about the location (instead of, or as well as, the timeline). He could be unpacking not because he changed offices, but because he changed buildings. There's also the detail that the new team are from different locations, so one way or another, some people have moved.
One detail against this theory would be the computer having Ms. Cobel's name in it--seems like that would be less likely if it were an entirely new office, but not necessarily.
An ambiguous detail regarding this theory would be the state of the wellness center. It looks to us like the lettering has been removed--making it likely to be the same wellness center as season 1--but it also looks a little like the inner doors haven't even been built yet.
Presumably we'll soon get a glimpse of what happened in the outside world after the events of the finale, and that will give us a lot more information about whether it's possible for our innies to have moved. But I'll note that without Cobel, we are missing the character that had the most continuity between the two worlds. It could be fairly simple to stagger timelines for a while without it being overt.
Having absorbed a lot of theories from various corners of the internet this week, I notice there are a lot out there whose assumptions about what Lumen is doing amount, basically, to a warmed-over variation on the conceit behind the film Get Out. I do hope that whatever ends up happening, it's something distinct from that.
posted by lampoil at 2:43 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]
savetheclocktower: If there were an actual stock market of fan theories, I'd short the “Helly is just Helena pretending to be Helly” with all of my Monopoly money. It seems to have occurred to every single person in this thread after one episode, so it'd be a pretty poor twist if that turned out to be the twist.
I don't think it's a twist at all. I think they telegraphed it and we're supposed to know that's Helena, and then some suspense comes from that -- will someone figure it out? Will she accidentally give it away (honestly, Irv already suspects, if not outright knows). Will Helena surprise us all by switching sides and joining the Innies after she gets to know them? I have no doubt there are plenty of shocks and discoveries to come about so many other things, and this isn't a show that rests on one "twist" per season.
destructive cactus: That said, I don't really think they'd let kids be crossing guards, but who knows.
I was a crossing guard when I was in 6th grade. You get to wear a bright orange sash/belt and everything.
posted by tzikeh at 4:44 PM on January 20 [9 favorites]
I don't think it's a twist at all. I think they telegraphed it and we're supposed to know that's Helena, and then some suspense comes from that -- will someone figure it out? Will she accidentally give it away (honestly, Irv already suspects, if not outright knows). Will Helena surprise us all by switching sides and joining the Innies after she gets to know them? I have no doubt there are plenty of shocks and discoveries to come about so many other things, and this isn't a show that rests on one "twist" per season.
destructive cactus: That said, I don't really think they'd let kids be crossing guards, but who knows.
I was a crossing guard when I was in 6th grade. You get to wear a bright orange sash/belt and everything.
posted by tzikeh at 4:44 PM on January 20 [9 favorites]
The previous secretary-like person is listed on Wikipedia as: “Natalie, Lumon's PR representative and speaker for the mysterious Board.” She only showed up when the board had something to say to Ms Cobel.We saw her in one other scene: she was interviewed on TV in her PR role in episode three, which was the character's first appearance.
I think Mark is special. He got that crystal head award for a freshman fluke when he finished his first file faster than anyone else, setting a record on his first day. And his relationship with Gemma and the fact that Cobel chose to live next to him are both indicators of his special status.
posted by simonw at 5:16 PM on January 20 [1 favorite]
First thoughts, before reading other comments:
1. "The Scream" emoji x 3!!!
2. Did I - unable to log into my Apple account despite 4 calls to customer service - laugh heartily at "Milkshake's" frustrations with Lumon's IT?
Yes, I did.
3. I'm leaning toward the It's Helena camp. She looks /seems different to me. Awkward, and more like a woman on a mission. And:
a. She was so eager to hear what Irving's story is.
b. She had bitterness about the Outies, but that could be Helena's self-loathing.
4. Fantastic acting by all. Turturro's absolute devastation. And what an entrance, still beating on the door.
5. Dylan during the whole animated sequence.
My thanks:
To Severance for making me forget the real world for an hour.
To the 3 kind mefites who came forward with offers to help me view this episode.
posted by NorthernLite at 6:27 PM on January 20 [5 favorites]
1. "The Scream" emoji x 3!!!
2. Did I - unable to log into my Apple account despite 4 calls to customer service - laugh heartily at "Milkshake's" frustrations with Lumon's IT?
Yes, I did.
3. I'm leaning toward the It's Helena camp. She looks /seems different to me. Awkward, and more like a woman on a mission. And:
a. She was so eager to hear what Irving's story is.
b. She had bitterness about the Outies, but that could be Helena's self-loathing.
4. Fantastic acting by all. Turturro's absolute devastation. And what an entrance, still beating on the door.
5. Dylan during the whole animated sequence.
My thanks:
To Severance for making me forget the real world for an hour.
To the 3 kind mefites who came forward with offers to help me view this episode.
posted by NorthernLite at 6:27 PM on January 20 [5 favorites]
I think that was an entirely different location, different building, it WAS in Wyoming or wherever.
One noticeable difference: the alternate-Macrodat's MDR office had only a shallow supply cupboard, not the walk-in supply closet that Mark spent a lot of time in in S1.
Was it just me or was Dario R's command of English rather variable between the two days? The first day he's stumbling over asking for an "ink pencil" and unable to understand Mark's reply of "supply closet"; the second day he's holding his end in a lengthy conversation about the Perpetuity Wing.
("Brooms, each with a face made of a plate" was giving me wire mother vibes...)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 6:30 PM on January 20 [6 favorites]
One noticeable difference: the alternate-Macrodat's MDR office had only a shallow supply cupboard, not the walk-in supply closet that Mark spent a lot of time in in S1.
Was it just me or was Dario R's command of English rather variable between the two days? The first day he's stumbling over asking for an "ink pencil" and unable to understand Mark's reply of "supply closet"; the second day he's holding his end in a lengthy conversation about the Perpetuity Wing.
("Brooms, each with a face made of a plate" was giving me wire mother vibes...)
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 6:30 PM on January 20 [6 favorites]
I think the supply closet and wellness area changes are just reactionary facility updates to the same location; Milchick even mentions "you shouldn't have to go into the supply closet to talk in private" in his surface-friendly-but-menacing way. He doesn't want them to be able to.
In the prior season, the facilities department added the keycard doors overnight, basically. I feel like, if they were going to change the location, there'd be no point to trying to hide it, because it's all the innies know and they'd spot the real differences nearly immediately.
posted by destructive cactus at 7:05 PM on January 20 [3 favorites]
In the prior season, the facilities department added the keycard doors overnight, basically. I feel like, if they were going to change the location, there'd be no point to trying to hide it, because it's all the innies know and they'd spot the real differences nearly immediately.
posted by destructive cactus at 7:05 PM on January 20 [3 favorites]
Dario R.'s English proficiency feels to me like a not-particularly-subtle hint that more time has actually gone by than Mark is being told
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:32 PM on January 20 [7 favorites]
posted by DoctorFedora at 8:32 PM on January 20 [7 favorites]
As for plot machinations, the big question to me is what changed in the motivations of Dylan's, Irving's, and Helena's outies (putting aside her question for a minute) between when Mark refused to play along with the new team and them returning?
So, I don't believe this is what happened, but the thought occurred to me that they may have been "Gemma'd".
Names: it's interesting that Helena/Helly seems to be the only severed employee that got a different first name on the inside?
Do we actually know what Dylan's outie's name is?
Outie Dylan has no idea that Innie Dylan freed the other Innies.
Innnnnteresting. We are told that they became national news, but have no reason to believe that. I'd argue that we have reason to doubt it, since I think everything in this episode is a lie.
I believe Outie Irv and Outie Burt had met previously and suspect Outie Burt is the reason Outie Irv took the Lumon job in the first place.
Oh now this, THIS is why I came back to FanFare just for this show. Fascinating idea that would explain a lot.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:58 AM on January 21
So, I don't believe this is what happened, but the thought occurred to me that they may have been "Gemma'd".
Names: it's interesting that Helena/Helly seems to be the only severed employee that got a different first name on the inside?
Do we actually know what Dylan's outie's name is?
Outie Dylan has no idea that Innie Dylan freed the other Innies.
Innnnnteresting. We are told that they became national news, but have no reason to believe that. I'd argue that we have reason to doubt it, since I think everything in this episode is a lie.
I believe Outie Irv and Outie Burt had met previously and suspect Outie Burt is the reason Outie Irv took the Lumon job in the first place.
Oh now this, THIS is why I came back to FanFare just for this show. Fascinating idea that would explain a lot.
posted by Rock Steady at 5:58 AM on January 21
What are the circular shapes in the lower left of the screencap of Gemma's face? Cell division or something? Combined with the medical telemetry (EKG, SPO2, etc) I think we are meant to think that the refinement has something to do with life support of part-time severed employees?
Oh, and I asked this question previously, and while rewatching, I asked my wife about this, and she thinks it looks like a surgical lamp, as seen from the operating table. Perhaps this is Gemma's field of vision?
posted by Rock Steady at 6:03 AM on January 21
Oh, and I asked this question previously, and while rewatching, I asked my wife about this, and she thinks it looks like a surgical lamp, as seen from the operating table. Perhaps this is Gemma's field of vision?
posted by Rock Steady at 6:03 AM on January 21
One tiny clue, or Easter egg: the 'other' Mark is Mark W. As in--Mark Double-You. A nod to the theory that cloning, or multiple personalities are somehow part of the story?? I sooooo love this show.
posted by BeBoth at 8:34 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
posted by BeBoth at 8:34 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
Dylan and Erv's outies remain mostly unaware of the "heist" at the end of S1, and Helena is a literal member of the corporate family, but I think the central question is:
Why would (outie) Mark Scout return to Lumen?
I've been asking this since it was renewed... how could he possibly defend such a decision based on the revelations of his innie in the company of his sister?
posted by pjenks at 8:35 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
Why would (outie) Mark Scout return to Lumen?
I've been asking this since it was renewed... how could he possibly defend such a decision based on the revelations of his innie in the company of his sister?
posted by pjenks at 8:35 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
Why would (outie) Mark Scout return to Lumen?
I assumed his motivation was to find and free Gemma. Would the outie have a good way to do that? It could be interesting if it’s actually more complicated though.
posted by eirias at 8:46 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
I assumed his motivation was to find and free Gemma. Would the outie have a good way to do that? It could be interesting if it’s actually more complicated though.
posted by eirias at 8:46 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
I assumed his motivation was to find and free Gemma.
Yes, I guess, but it feels pretty weak. Shouldn't his first visit be to the police and Congress? I have been (and remain) terrified that the writers won't be able to reasonably sew S2 back to S1... that finale should have exploded the company, and MDR.
posted by pjenks at 8:53 AM on January 21
Yes, I guess, but it feels pretty weak. Shouldn't his first visit be to the police and Congress? I have been (and remain) terrified that the writers won't be able to reasonably sew S2 back to S1... that finale should have exploded the company, and MDR.
posted by pjenks at 8:53 AM on January 21
I assumed his motivation was to find and free Gemma. Would the outie have a good way to do that? It could be interesting if it’s actually more complicated though.
What if Outie Mark agreed to severence protocol specifically because he knew they could attempt torevive recreate her? Like, a literal deal with the devil. It's not clear though what his long term plan in outie society would be in this scenario; friends and family would definitely notice.
posted by pwnguin at 9:54 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
What if Outie Mark agreed to severence protocol specifically because he knew they could attempt to
posted by pwnguin at 9:54 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
Another thought I've had, since a few people have mentioned it: I don't think Helena/Helly is reintegrated. I think severance is triggered by something that happens within the elevator, and not something that happens all over the severed floor, so if they just shut off that "event" she can enter the severed floor as her outie.
posted by Rock Steady at 10:54 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
posted by Rock Steady at 10:54 AM on January 21 [3 favorites]
Exactly; just as they have the Overtime Protocol to activate the chip at any point, they no doubt have a way to suppress it on demand.
posted by mikepop at 11:53 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
posted by mikepop at 11:53 AM on January 21 [1 favorite]
Shouldn't his first visit be to the police and Congress?
We have yet to see what O-Mark's first actions have been. In the meantime it makes complete sense that I-Mark would try to find his wife. That is the Mark that viscerally understands that Ms. Casey is alive and was his wife in the Outie world. For O-Mark, it'sinformation that he learned about second hand from his sister. I'm sure he's just as motivated to get to the bottom of things, but what is he going to tell the Kier police that is going to cause them to act on his behalf and not Lumon's? O-Mark hasn't seen his supposedly dead wife.
that finale should have exploded the company, and MDR.
Most people in Kier have no idea that Helly was shouting at a private Lumon supporter's gala. It's hard to say what Outie Mark wants to do with his new information. Irv didn't make contact with anyone as far as we know.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:41 PM on January 21
We have yet to see what O-Mark's first actions have been. In the meantime it makes complete sense that I-Mark would try to find his wife. That is the Mark that viscerally understands that Ms. Casey is alive and was his wife in the Outie world. For O-Mark, it'sinformation that he learned about second hand from his sister. I'm sure he's just as motivated to get to the bottom of things, but what is he going to tell the Kier police that is going to cause them to act on his behalf and not Lumon's? O-Mark hasn't seen his supposedly dead wife.
that finale should have exploded the company, and MDR.
Most people in Kier have no idea that Helly was shouting at a private Lumon supporter's gala. It's hard to say what Outie Mark wants to do with his new information. Irv didn't make contact with anyone as far as we know.
posted by oneirodynia at 12:41 PM on January 21
My theory (even though the Helena theory is a really strong one), is that Helly was woken up since the overtime contingency and was told who she is and turned against the innies. Maybe she even somehow had a conversation with Helena. I think she’s a mole now.
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:42 PM on January 21
posted by LizBoBiz at 3:42 PM on January 21
I gotta say, all this speculation (my own included) is giving me PTSD to when LOST was airing. I hope these writers are not fucking with us like those writers were.
Also... I do not understand the "Five months" thing. Mark would have come back the next work day to find his wife, no?
posted by dobbs at 4:53 PM on January 21 [2 favorites]
Also... I do not understand the "Five months" thing. Mark would have come back the next work day to find his wife, no?
posted by dobbs at 4:53 PM on January 21 [2 favorites]
The previous secretary-like person is listed on Wikipedia as: “Natalie, Lumon's PR representative and speaker for the mysterious Board.” She only showed up when the board had something to say to Ms Cobel.
We saw her in one other scene: she was interviewed on TV in her PR role in episode three, which was the character's first appearance.
We also saw her at the Gala, talking to and presenting Helena/Helly.
posted by tzikeh at 5:44 PM on January 21
We saw her in one other scene: she was interviewed on TV in her PR role in episode three, which was the character's first appearance.
We also saw her at the Gala, talking to and presenting Helena/Helly.
posted by tzikeh at 5:44 PM on January 21
Her name is Ms. Huang and she's the Deputy Manager. Her job is more like Milchick's previous job and at one point she tells mark she's their supervisor.
I really, really don't like this new character. It seems to be veering into "weird for the sake of weird" Lost-esque territory. A literal child who is somehow not only an employee but a supervisor? I'm sure there will be an explanation but I feel like this is a problem with shows like this, that they feel the need to out-weird the previous season that risks stretching things too far.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:23 PM on January 21 [4 favorites]
I really, really don't like this new character. It seems to be veering into "weird for the sake of weird" Lost-esque territory. A literal child who is somehow not only an employee but a supervisor? I'm sure there will be an explanation but I feel like this is a problem with shows like this, that they feel the need to out-weird the previous season that risks stretching things too far.
posted by star gentle uterus at 6:23 PM on January 21 [4 favorites]
I'm not sure how they can out-weird the season with the goats and the waffle party.
posted by simonw at 6:26 PM on January 21 [5 favorites]
posted by simonw at 6:26 PM on January 21 [5 favorites]
The one thing that gives me pause about Ms. Huang (and I confess I loved the delivery on “because of when I was born”) is that she’s called out numerous times as being in-universe weird. The waffle party, everyone rolls with, but the child manager gets questions even from longtime Lumon employees. That says to me that she probably does have to be explained.
posted by eirias at 6:34 PM on January 21 [2 favorites]
posted by eirias at 6:34 PM on January 21 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I think that's sort of a subtle but important distinction. Like, the goats and waffle party and other outright _weird office shit_ down on the severed floor can all be sort of chalked up to Lumon being a weird old company doing weird old company shit that has been forgotten about since some senior manager decade ago got a bug up their ass to try goat farming in the basement or whatever. It doesn't need to really make a whole lot of sense, it just has to make the right _kind_ of sense. Companies do dumb employee appreciation shit all the time, so a end of quarter bonus for the top contributor where they get a stack of waffles with an interpretive dance and the chance to feel closer to what management thinks is an indisputable prize of laying down on the founder's _very own bed_?!?? Sure, I could see _my_ company doing that! etc etc etc. Very easy to sell as Corporate Weird.
"Hey, we hired a very young senior manager" on the other hand, might be a bridge too far?
posted by Kyol at 7:02 PM on January 21 [2 favorites]
"Hey, we hired a very young senior manager" on the other hand, might be a bridge too far?
posted by Kyol at 7:02 PM on January 21 [2 favorites]
Also... I do not understand the "Five months" thing. Mark would have come back the next work day to find his wife, no?
Seems likely he would, but ultimately Lumon is in control of when Mark (and anyone else) can go to work/the severed floor. If it has been five months, that might have been time they spent coming up with a plan, making a claymation video*, the other changes, etc. Or maybe Mark and the gang (minus Helena) have been held in jail by the town’s company cops. Or maybe it’s only been a week.
* claymation takes time to shoot and is hard to rush (not to mention writing the script, hiring the actors, and all the other production stuff). I don’t think Lumon would fake it with CGI. Maybe it hasn’t been five months, but oddly enough this video is the best evidence we have that at least a decent amount of time has elapsed.
posted by mikepop at 7:17 PM on January 21 [4 favorites]
Seems likely he would, but ultimately Lumon is in control of when Mark (and anyone else) can go to work/the severed floor. If it has been five months, that might have been time they spent coming up with a plan, making a claymation video*, the other changes, etc. Or maybe Mark and the gang (minus Helena) have been held in jail by the town’s company cops. Or maybe it’s only been a week.
* claymation takes time to shoot and is hard to rush (not to mention writing the script, hiring the actors, and all the other production stuff). I don’t think Lumon would fake it with CGI. Maybe it hasn’t been five months, but oddly enough this video is the best evidence we have that at least a decent amount of time has elapsed.
posted by mikepop at 7:17 PM on January 21 [4 favorites]
Hah, I love that idea that the claymation production time is the only solid clue we have that any time has passed at all.
posted by simonw at 7:45 PM on January 21 [11 favorites]
posted by simonw at 7:45 PM on January 21 [11 favorites]
Just as they have the Overtime Protocol to activate the chip at any point, they no doubt have a way to suppress it on demand.
Yes, an explanation for a slight delay in her appearance. (Or, Helena had last-minute misgivings and someone shoved her into the elevator.)
Mark's obvious waiting for her served two purposes: To reinforce how he wanted to see Helly, but also subtly emphasize the slight delay.
posted by NorthernLite at 7:59 AM on January 22 [4 favorites]
Yes, an explanation for a slight delay in her appearance. (Or, Helena had last-minute misgivings and someone shoved her into the elevator.)
Mark's obvious waiting for her served two purposes: To reinforce how he wanted to see Helly, but also subtly emphasize the slight delay.
posted by NorthernLite at 7:59 AM on January 22 [4 favorites]
* claymation takes time to shoot and is hard to rush (not to mention writing the script, hiring the actors, and all the other production stuff).
Hiring Keanu takes time!
posted by mochapickle at 8:10 AM on January 22
Hiring Keanu takes time!
posted by mochapickle at 8:10 AM on January 22
information that he learned about second hand from his sister
We haven't seen this therefore we cannot assume it has happened.
posted by cooker girl at 8:27 AM on January 22 [2 favorites]
We haven't seen this therefore we cannot assume it has happened.
posted by cooker girl at 8:27 AM on January 22 [2 favorites]
Mark would have come back the next work day to find his wife, no?
I just don't see how a normal (outie) person would take that course of action. You find out that the company you work for might have kidnapped your thought-dead wife, so you send your severed personality in to look for her ... someone whom you by definition have no contact with and never will have any (indirect) contact with again because there is no way Lumon's mistake of last season would happen again. No, you would pursue Lumon in the outside world... the innie world is not only inefficient/impossible to achieve an outcome, but it is the wrong path to take to get justice.
posted by pjenks at 9:20 AM on January 22
I just don't see how a normal (outie) person would take that course of action. You find out that the company you work for might have kidnapped your thought-dead wife, so you send your severed personality in to look for her ... someone whom you by definition have no contact with and never will have any (indirect) contact with again because there is no way Lumon's mistake of last season would happen again. No, you would pursue Lumon in the outside world... the innie world is not only inefficient/impossible to achieve an outcome, but it is the wrong path to take to get justice.
posted by pjenks at 9:20 AM on January 22
Maybe O-Mark is being held under duress.
posted by mochapickle at 9:48 AM on January 22
posted by mochapickle at 9:48 AM on January 22
Maybe that’s what you would do pjenka, but there are hundreds, if not thousands, of movies and tv shows where the entire premise depends on the main character taking matters into their own hands instead of going to authorities.
posted by LizBoBiz at 10:09 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
posted by LizBoBiz at 10:09 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
"Maybe that’s what you would do pjenka, but there are hundreds, if not thousands, of movies and tv shows where the entire premise depends on the main character taking matters into their own hands instead of going to authorities."
I see Outtie Mark (OM) NOT going back to Lumen (and contacting authorities, etc) as him taking matters into his own hands. Innie Mark (IM), at this point, is effectively a stranger to OM, and OM wouldn't be able to know what IM was actually doing if he went back. By staying away and working from the outside, OM was taking agency of the situation.
Also, it would probably be terrifying for OM to even consider putting his well-being back in Lumen's hands, given what OM was likely told by his sister following the end of the Overtime period. Like, what if they just never sent him home?
posted by joelhunt at 11:18 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
I see Outtie Mark (OM) NOT going back to Lumen (and contacting authorities, etc) as him taking matters into his own hands. Innie Mark (IM), at this point, is effectively a stranger to OM, and OM wouldn't be able to know what IM was actually doing if he went back. By staying away and working from the outside, OM was taking agency of the situation.
Also, it would probably be terrifying for OM to even consider putting his well-being back in Lumen's hands, given what OM was likely told by his sister following the end of the Overtime period. Like, what if they just never sent him home?
posted by joelhunt at 11:18 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
Also, there is a time gap between the first IM appearance (Milcheck's office is covered in bubble wrap) and the next (all unpacked). Who knows where OM was during that time!
posted by armacy at 11:23 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
posted by armacy at 11:23 AM on January 22 [1 favorite]
it would probably be terrifying for OM to even consider putting his well-being back in Lumen's hands
Yes, it's not just minds involved here but bodies. Outie Mark has evidence that Gemma's (living) body lies within Lumon. Why would he allow Lumon to control the narrative and the body in pursuing this?
I have no idea what is going on yet... just hoping that these questions have well-thought-out and well-defended answers.
posted by pjenks at 12:34 PM on January 22
Yes, it's not just minds involved here but bodies. Outie Mark has evidence that Gemma's (living) body lies within Lumon. Why would he allow Lumon to control the narrative and the body in pursuing this?
I have no idea what is going on yet... just hoping that these questions have well-thought-out and well-defended answers.
posted by pjenks at 12:34 PM on January 22
Vanity Fait have a 12 minute Notes on a Scene breakdown of the opening running sequence with Ben Stiller and Adam Scott.
posted by simonw at 1:20 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
posted by simonw at 1:20 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
Has it been stated or implied whether severance can only result in two versions of a person, or can they be subdivided further?
I'm on team Helly is not innie-Helly, but whether she's Helena or some new, specially trained Helena slice (or some amount of reintegrated?) is what I'm wondering. Lumon may have taken the knowledge that reintegration is possible and made some upgrades to their technology in the "five months" since.
posted by subocoyne at 3:14 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
I'm on team Helly is not innie-Helly, but whether she's Helena or some new, specially trained Helena slice (or some amount of reintegrated?) is what I'm wondering. Lumon may have taken the knowledge that reintegration is possible and made some upgrades to their technology in the "five months" since.
posted by subocoyne at 3:14 PM on January 22 [1 favorite]
Severance — Lumon Management Program: Integrating New Team Members
posted by nathan_teske at 5:26 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
posted by nathan_teske at 5:26 PM on January 22 [3 favorites]
Also... I do not understand the "Five months" thing. Mark would have come back the next work day to find his wife, no?
Regardless of any Outie time frame, the Innies only know their waking hours. They come up the escalator, go to work, and after work go partway down the escalator and back into the office. If you tell them it's been five months or five seconds, they have no way of knowing otherwise.
So, if O-Mark chooses to come to work the very next day, Milchick can say whatever he wants to I-Mark, and I-Mark won't know the difference.
Maybe it hasn’t been five months, but oddly enough this video is the best evidence we have that at least a decent amount of time has elapsed.
This is true, but... the "five months" line happens when I-Mark shows back up at the office right after (to him) waking up at Devon's house. On his second day back with the new team, I-Mark starts some shit to get to talk to the board his old team back, and then is maybe fired (???) has a very weird and unusual re-entry via the elevator after that- and voila, his new team is back! And then they are shown a video of the four of them! Was the animation made in the "five months" interval, or in the "fired but not fired" interval? If they thought I-Mark was going to work with the new team, would they have made that video of him with his old team?
posted by oneirodynia at 5:51 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
Regardless of any Outie time frame, the Innies only know their waking hours. They come up the escalator, go to work, and after work go partway down the escalator and back into the office. If you tell them it's been five months or five seconds, they have no way of knowing otherwise.
So, if O-Mark chooses to come to work the very next day, Milchick can say whatever he wants to I-Mark, and I-Mark won't know the difference.
Maybe it hasn’t been five months, but oddly enough this video is the best evidence we have that at least a decent amount of time has elapsed.
This is true, but... the "five months" line happens when I-Mark shows back up at the office right after (to him) waking up at Devon's house. On his second day back with the new team, I-Mark starts some shit to get to talk to the board his old team back, and then is maybe fired (???) has a very weird and unusual re-entry via the elevator after that- and voila, his new team is back! And then they are shown a video of the four of them! Was the animation made in the "five months" interval, or in the "fired but not fired" interval? If they thought I-Mark was going to work with the new team, would they have made that video of him with his old team?
posted by oneirodynia at 5:51 PM on January 22 [2 favorites]
information that he learned about second hand from his sister
We haven't seen this therefore we cannot assume it has happened.
Yeah we didn't, and I'm not assuming it, just pointing out that if O-Mark finds out something from someone else, it's not the same as I-Mark having the actual encounters with Miss Casey and putting 2 and 2 together. What evidence does O-Mark have to go to the police? So this is going to sound weird, but my severed self saw a woman that looks exactly like my dead wife, and he...I... he... told my sister, who told me, and now I'm coming to you, the Kier police, with this odd third-hand information. No, I haven't seen her myself. No, I don't have contact with my severed self or a way to contact Miss Casey. No, I have no other evidence.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:04 PM on January 22
We haven't seen this therefore we cannot assume it has happened.
Yeah we didn't, and I'm not assuming it, just pointing out that if O-Mark finds out something from someone else, it's not the same as I-Mark having the actual encounters with Miss Casey and putting 2 and 2 together. What evidence does O-Mark have to go to the police? So this is going to sound weird, but my severed self saw a woman that looks exactly like my dead wife, and he...I... he... told my sister, who told me, and now I'm coming to you, the Kier police, with this odd third-hand information. No, I haven't seen her myself. No, I don't have contact with my severed self or a way to contact Miss Casey. No, I have no other evidence.
posted by oneirodynia at 6:04 PM on January 22
Severance — Lumon Management Program: Integrating New Team Members
LUMP! And importantly, it claims that Miss Hwong is unsevered.
posted by mochapickle at 12:43 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
LUMP! And importantly, it claims that Miss Hwong is unsevered.
posted by mochapickle at 12:43 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
This interview with Sarah Bock/Miss Huang (Teen Vogue) clarifies her character’s severed/unsevered status (if you don’t mind the spoiler).
posted by s.e.b. at 10:42 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
posted by s.e.b. at 10:42 AM on January 23 [1 favorite]
I would have preferred to remain unspoiled on that.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:31 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 12:31 PM on January 23 [4 favorites]
Outie-Mark has no reason to believe that his innie was correct about his wife. Given that he seems to wallow in his misery a bit, I could see him easily being convinced that it was some weird side-effect of the Innie being exposed to the outside world for the first time.
I don't think the real-world production time for claymation is any sort of clue to how much time has passed in the show. I doubt the writers ever said, "The audience will never believe that Lumon was able to create this claymation video in only a few days, in this show about a chip that splits your personality and a company that raises goats in an office. We gotta make that true to life." Like they're afraid there's going to be a massive fan-uprising against the show because of its failure to realistically represent the animation production process. If the show says Lumon can produce a claymation video in 48 hrs, then Lumon can produce a claymation video in 48 hrs.
I think Helena is 100% working as a mole, pretending to be her Innie, and we as the audience are supposed to be suspicious, if not pretty certain. They have taken pains to focus on several details that suggest it: lying about what she did; the unconvincing explanation of the outside world that is nothing like how Helly would see it; her generally suspect mannerisms; the fumbling for the switch. The suspense is not in revealing a totally unexpected twist, but in showing us a lit fuse and us wondering how long until the spark reaches the dynamite. When she talks passionately about how Outies and Innies are different, her disdain is not for the Outies, but for the Innies ("I am a person, you are not").
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:35 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]
I don't think the real-world production time for claymation is any sort of clue to how much time has passed in the show. I doubt the writers ever said, "The audience will never believe that Lumon was able to create this claymation video in only a few days, in this show about a chip that splits your personality and a company that raises goats in an office. We gotta make that true to life." Like they're afraid there's going to be a massive fan-uprising against the show because of its failure to realistically represent the animation production process. If the show says Lumon can produce a claymation video in 48 hrs, then Lumon can produce a claymation video in 48 hrs.
I think Helena is 100% working as a mole, pretending to be her Innie, and we as the audience are supposed to be suspicious, if not pretty certain. They have taken pains to focus on several details that suggest it: lying about what she did; the unconvincing explanation of the outside world that is nothing like how Helly would see it; her generally suspect mannerisms; the fumbling for the switch. The suspense is not in revealing a totally unexpected twist, but in showing us a lit fuse and us wondering how long until the spark reaches the dynamite. When she talks passionately about how Outies and Innies are different, her disdain is not for the Outies, but for the Innies ("I am a person, you are not").
posted by Saxon Kane at 9:35 PM on January 23 [1 favorite]
Regarding that lamp in Milchick's office, just after Milchick says "please excuse the clutter", they cut to a shot of Mark again and the lamp is missing. Next time we cut back to him, after Milchick says "I now manage the severed floor", it's back.
Could be a production mistake, but this show has enough weird detail-oriented stuff going on, I'm not sure it's not on purpose.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:43 PM on January 24
Could be a production mistake, but this show has enough weird detail-oriented stuff going on, I'm not sure it's not on purpose.
posted by rmd1023 at 12:43 PM on January 24
What do the severed employees really want? They have no idea that reintegration is even an option. So the choice is kind of between "better working conditions" and oblivion. Lumon is putting on a decent show of the former. Of course what Mark S. really wants is answers, specifically about Gemma but also about what the actual work of the severed floor is.
That last question I have my doubts about whether the series will ever be able to satisfactorily answer. I feel like the show is writing checks it won't be able to cash, but I felt that way about The Good Place and I was wrong there, so I guess we'll see.
posted by rikschell at 4:37 AM on January 25
That last question I have my doubts about whether the series will ever be able to satisfactorily answer. I feel like the show is writing checks it won't be able to cash, but I felt that way about The Good Place and I was wrong there, so I guess we'll see.
posted by rikschell at 4:37 AM on January 25
Mod note: Hi folks we've gotten a coupe of flags about spoilers, particularly this comment and this one. I haven't seen the show at all, can anyone verify, thus resulting in the comments being removed?
The spoiler policy is to limit discussion to the current episode, so please keep that in mind when making comments i.e. don't include any information about future episodes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 12:00 PM on January 25 [1 favorite]
The spoiler policy is to limit discussion to the current episode, so please keep that in mind when making comments i.e. don't include any information about future episodes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 12:00 PM on January 25 [1 favorite]
Yeah, the first one is kind of a spoiler. The second one seems to be gone already?
posted by oneirodynia at 1:04 PM on January 25
posted by oneirodynia at 1:04 PM on January 25
Mod note: Thanks y’all both comments removed.
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:22 PM on January 25 [2 favorites]
posted by Brandon Blatcher (staff) at 2:22 PM on January 25 [2 favorites]
wow, has any other show garnered week after week 100+ comment episode threads????
posted by supermedusa at 11:43 AM on February 11
posted by supermedusa at 11:43 AM on February 11
Mad Men commentary could get up there back in the day (sometimes over 500 comments for an episode!)
posted by mikepop at 12:05 PM on February 11
posted by mikepop at 12:05 PM on February 11
Also Game of Thrones, early seasons of Westworld, the end of Better Call Saul. Fanfare was too late for breaking bad but I’m sure it would have long threads as well.
I do think this is the least popular show I’ve seen with this many comments. My whole friends circle watches but none of my coworkers or other social groups do.
posted by LizBoBiz at 4:26 PM on February 11
I do think this is the least popular show I’ve seen with this many comments. My whole friends circle watches but none of my coworkers or other social groups do.
posted by LizBoBiz at 4:26 PM on February 11
Hey Miss Huang is from my hometown (Raleigh, NC)! I skimmed the Teen Vogue article and avoided the spoiler, but here’s a non-show spoiler: that actress was the voice of frickin’ BABY SHARK!
posted by caviar2d2 at 4:19 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
posted by caviar2d2 at 4:19 PM on February 23 [1 favorite]
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posted by Rock Steady at 7:40 PM on January 16 [17 favorites]