Game of Thrones: The Queen's Justice Show Only
July 30, 2017 7:04 PM - Season 7, Episode 3 - Subscribe

Daenerys holds court. Cersei returns a gift. Jaime learns from his mistakes.

Director: Mark Mylod
Writers: David Benioff & David Benioff (written for television by)
Full Cast and Crew Credits
Promo photographs and trailer for episode.

posted by Brandon Blatcher (301 comments total) 7 users marked this as a favorite

"I read the book. And I followed the instructions."

SAM IS MY SPIRIT ANIMAL.
posted by lydhre at 7:06 PM on July 30, 2017 [64 favorites]

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaah that final scene! I love Lady Olenna and I'm sad she lost, but what a way to go.

My other quick hot takes:
Bran: "I'm the Three-Eyed Raven"
Sansa, SPEAKING FOR US ALL: "I don't know what that means."

I thought it was really interesting that the show has been emphasizing how Sansa learned from Cersei and emulates her (old) hairstyle, etc. But when Cersei was talking to Ellaria about how she lays awake at night imagining how her enemies would die I saw the strongest link to Arya they've yet drawn... (Meanwhile, Cersei's dresses have gone full Maleficent and I actually cracked up when I saw her on the Iron Throne first).

I also really liked the exchange between Euron and Jaime about how the people of King's Landing are essentially the worst and just wait to pelt anyone with rotten fruit and call them whores. Maybe they city does deserve to burn.

It was sort of obvious as a money-saving measure, but I actually thought that Tyrion's Voiceover To Battle was a really good shorthand for, you know, showing more battle. Well done, show.
posted by TwoStride at 7:09 PM on July 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Best episode in a while, I thought. Mostly good writing, mostly good pacing, the characters mostly acted like you'd expect them to act based on who they are rather than as dictated by plot. Tyrion was the best Tyrion in years. And Joffrey was, indeed, a real c*nt.

I say mostly because the Casterly Rock shenanigans seem like something you'd spend a little more time on. But, eh, we're in the homestretch and time, money, etc.
posted by Justinian at 7:11 PM on July 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

Fifty eight minutes of standing and talking and then two giant battles in about two minutes? The budget must be stretched pretty thin this season.
posted by octothorpe at 7:11 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Euron must keep rolling twenties.
posted by drezdn at 7:12 PM on July 30, 2017 [15 favorites]

Also just the right amount of Sea Ramsay, which is to say... not a whole lot. I feel bad for Ellaria. She and Oberyn were great. It's not their fault the rest of the Dornish are awful wankers.
posted by Justinian at 7:13 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

STANDING AND TALKING IS THE BEST PART. I WILL FIGHT YOU.
posted by Justinian at 7:13 PM on July 30, 2017 [36 favorites]

Marvelous last move by Oleana Tyrell.

Overall I enjoyed the episode, but the Stark reunion was frustrating as hell. I get that Bran is operating on a higher level and is distant. But for fuck's sake, why is no one asking Meera Reed what the hell happened to him? 'Cause Bran is essentillay speaking gibberish, so yeah, figure that shit out.

Euron Greyjoy also redeemed himself a bit, as villain, just for antagonizing Jamie for no good reason, in the one place Jamie can't do anything about it. He's a good foil, character wise, against Oleana Tyrell and Cersei.

Really enjoyed Jon not bending the knee. I thought he would, easily, just to get on with the important issue of fighting the walkers. But he held his own against Daenerys and quiety pointed out how stupid she sounds at times. "This is Jon Snow," indeed.

Kudos to Daenerys for bending. She still has chip on her shoulder, but she's being reasonable. She plays off Jon well and there's clearly a dynamic there that works.

Poor Tyrion. All his master plans have come to naught. He never got the memo about being a dragon.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:21 PM on July 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

Geez they sure built Dragonstone close to the airport
posted by oulipian at 7:22 PM on July 30, 2017 [37 favorites]

Dany tried to impress Jon Snow with an ‘In this moment, I am euphoric. Not because of any phony god’s blessing. But because, I am enlightened by my intelligence’ quote.

Also, its very easy to explain what being the Three Eyed Raven is. Don't prove clairvoyance by picking an event where any charlatan could guess at the details (oh it was snowing and she looked pretty in her wedding dress? How did you know??)
posted by Hume at 7:26 PM on July 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

I really enjoyed this episode, actually.

I'm glad someone finally told Dany that birthright means absolute shit. Because it's true: it means absolute shit and the sooner she gets that the sooner she's going to stop being an entitled asshole. It is especially grating, and I guess that's the point, that she's bloviating to Jon who just so happens to have a better claim to the throne than she does. But none of this matters because democracy and ice zombies.

Bran was suitably weird, but I did not appreciate him bringing up Sansa's rape. Or rather, it was callous of him to do so, but I blame the writers as per fucking usual. Stop it, writers, you were doing so much better.

I remain 100% team queen in the north. Sansa forever.
posted by lydhre at 7:33 PM on July 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

I mean, if they want to prove his clairvoyance maybe just maybe pick an event that empowers her? Like feeding Ramsay to his hounds? Her calling for the army of the Vale? Come on, it's not fucking hard.
posted by lydhre at 7:37 PM on July 30, 2017 [22 favorites]

The internets to the GoT writers: "You said rape twice"
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 7:42 PM on July 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I WANT HER TO KNOW IT WAS MEEEEEEE
posted by poffin boffin at 7:43 PM on July 30, 2017 [20 favorites]

ME 2 GURL
posted by poffin boffin at 7:43 PM on July 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

where is arya hurry up arya
posted by poffin boffin at 7:43 PM on July 30, 2017 [11 favorites]

Maybe it's sad that I have to say this but I was really, really impressed that they had a scene of two female characters (highly sexualized ones at that) being tortured and killed without even a mention of sexual violence. This show has grown a lot.

I'm so excited for the Sansa/Arya reunion in the next episode. Hopefully a lot more satisfying than the weird Sansa/Bran one. I feel like Bran has long been a bit of a problem for the show because while there's little question that he is very important to the overall plot of the stories, he has very little distinct personality. I've never heard anyone call Bran their favorite character. And a lot of that is because of the vast age difference between the book character and actor. Bran in the books is still eight or nine. The actor must be in his late teens by now.
posted by armadillo1224 at 7:45 PM on July 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Tyrion's little bit on brooding cracked me up, almost felt like they were breaking the fourth wall.
posted by drfu at 7:46 PM on July 30, 2017 [36 favorites]

Jaime now definitely knows Tyrion didn't kill Joffrey.

'Course, he still killed his Dad.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:46 PM on July 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

The brooding bit was delightful, as was Dany calling him on the "a wise man once said" bit. I loved his rejoinder: "I would never do that--to you." Heh.
posted by TwoStride at 7:48 PM on July 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

The actor must be in his late teens by now.

he's a member of AARP by now
posted by poffin boffin at 7:51 PM on July 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

My wife pointed out that Bran did a similar thing to Edd, up at the Wall, i.e. bringing up horrible shit the character has experienced, in a place they knew Bran wasn't.

So basically Bran needs socializing, lol.

Nice to see Sansa running things also and doing it smartly and practically, from the viewpoint of a Northerner.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:53 PM on July 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

OTOH I totally agree that most people should be like, "Night Kings, ok loonybin" but Dany--Miss I Literally Can Hang Out And Walk Through Fire--is the LAST person in Westeros or anyone else who should be doubting mystical shit.
posted by TwoStride at 7:53 PM on July 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

I guess Bran's rape allusion makes sense from the standpoint that Bran is allknowing; Bran loves Sansa; seeing Sansa hurt that way was horrifying; Bran now lacks all social skills. I think that whole scene was meant to be unbearably awkward in every way and make Sansa quickly realize that the Three Eyed Raven is most definitely not Dakingindanorf.
posted by gatorae at 7:54 PM on July 30, 2017 [12 favorites]

Tyrion was the best Tyrion in years.

Tyrion was fantastic. I also loved his monologue about how he couldn't brood with Jon looking so much better brooding right beside him. And how he kept trying to open up a negotiation with Jon and Jon just couldn't catch on, and he just finally laid it all out there for him. Jon is such a doof. I can't outright dislike him because he's so stalwart and earnest and everything. But ugh he just seems like the type where you'd talk to him for like ten minutes and then walk away thinking, "OK, I need a drink."

I just can't with Dany, though. She's such a smug asshole. There is no way that I can root for her to take the Iron Throne, because she seems like a tyrant in the making. From how she's talking already, I think she's due to become a mad, self-obsessed, absolute ruler (aka, her father's daughter) in maybe T-minus 3 years. And I hate how she always acts like she's got this great claim because of her blood and her dragons. Play up the "breaker of chains" stuff instead, dude! Tell people why it's worth their while to help you out! Oh but wait, she can't, because she actually is power hungry and doesn't want to actually break chains back here at home. The first ruler who comes to treat with her, she even keeps as a prisoner/"guest" FFS. (Although I did find it wonderful when Jon just straight up asked if he was her prisoner). So trustworthy, such a skilled politician, that one.

Not that I think there's necessarily anyone better suited than her for the Iron Throne, but that makes me think the Iron Throne is bullshit rather than that she should sit on it. It looks like the Seven Kingdoms should maybe be a confederacy instead of...I guess whatever the monarchy version of federalism is.

I'm enjoying Sea Ramsey, or rather, I'm enjoying all the other characters' reactions to Sea Ramsey. It kind of cracked me up how he was standing there basking in the glow after parading his POWs through the streets, looking like someone who had just suited up for his first Varsity homecoming game and was SO PROUD, and Jaime just being casually telling him, "eh, it's meaningless."

Ah Jaime, you don't get it, you've always been cool. Euron the Shitty isn't just excited that he's got people cheering for him, he's excited because he's a nobody from nowhere and he's even in the fucking parade at all. That's why he yanked poor Yara up next to him to excitedly say "they're cheering like this for a Greyjoy!" and weirdly/horribly/sadistically share the moment.

Bran: "I'm the Three-Eyed Raven"
Sansa, SPEAKING FOR US ALL: "I don't know what that means."

It was so strange that two people, one right after the other, launched into "I am omnipotent, FYI" monologues at Sansa.

When she registered what Bran was saying, I felt like she maybe was thinking "is Peter also a three-eyed raven?!" Well, because a part of me was wondering that, anyway. Or maybe she was thinking that she could use Bran as her crystal ball and take Peter's advice to (somehow?) become omnipotent and never be surprised again that way.

I guess Bran's rape allusion makes sense from the standpoint that Bran is allknowing; Bran loves Sansa; seeing Sansa hurt that way was horrifying; Bran now lacks all social skills.

Yeah, Bran is basically Dr. Manhattan now.
posted by rue72 at 8:01 PM on July 30, 2017 [30 favorites]

Sam. Buddy. Your "punishment" is that you have to read a whole bunch of ancient texts. That might as well be a parade.
posted by Night_owl at 8:02 PM on July 30, 2017 [37 favorites]

Your "punishment" is that you have to read a whole bunch of ancient texts.

Yep, who's taking bets that Sam will just happen to discover some other key piece of defeating the Night King in those old texts??
posted by TwoStride at 8:04 PM on July 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

Yeah Professor Slughorn was surprisingly awesome about Sam treating Jorah. And now we can see Jorah interact with Dany again... yay.
posted by gatorae at 8:06 PM on July 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

If Sam has to transcribe a rotting old letter that happens to be titled "Ye Olde Directions for Defeating an Undead Army & Also the Nights King" I will be really disappointed.
posted by gatorae at 8:12 PM on July 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

Maester Broadbent saying "10 points to Hufflepuff" after Sam cured Jorah was taking things slightly too far I think.
posted by rhamphorhynchus at 8:15 PM on July 30, 2017 [67 favorites]

If only all the problems of the world could be torn slowly and forcefully away from raw screaming flesh like thick moist disease bark.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:20 PM on July 30, 2017 [19 favorites]

I'm waiting for Jorah to ride up to Dragonstone and be all DANY ITS MEEEEE IM BETTER NOW WE CAN BE TOGETHER and her expression just freezes. "Oops".

I'm not sure how Jaimie gets from where he is to turning on Cersei. Is ordering all of King's Landing burned too on the nose?
posted by Justinian at 8:26 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Burhanistan, flagged as offensive.
posted by Night_owl at 8:27 PM on July 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

I never comment here but I just have to say these ships are getting out of hand. Euron's ships are the darkest magic on the show.
posted by Danila at 8:27 PM on July 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

euron's ships did 9/11
posted by Justinian at 8:28 PM on July 30, 2017 [23 favorites]

It reminded me of Errol peeling off the wallpaper in his and Vince's flat in 15 Storeys High. Bonus: Errol had to hide the torn off shreds of wallpaper in his pants so that Vince wouldn't know what he was up to, and I fancied Sam doing the same thing, except instead of wallpaper in his pants, it's highly contagious disease bark, and instead of pants, he bunches up his robe like he's out picking berries.
posted by turbid dahlia at 8:30 PM on July 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

No but seriously the journey from the Narrow Sea off Dragonstone to Casterly Rock must be... somewhere close to 4000 miles? Not as the crow flies but you gotta sail all the way south around Dorne, then west and up past Oldtown, then north most of the way to the Iron Islands. It's like sailing from Rio to Lima around Cape Horn.
posted by Justinian at 8:33 PM on July 30, 2017

how did his fucking sailorless ships get from kings landing to the rock BEFORE the ships that set out first

im so fucking mad about boats
posted by poffin boffin at 8:35 PM on July 30, 2017 [14 favorites]

i hope a dragon rips his head off tbh
posted by poffin boffin at 8:35 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

On the other hand, not to defend the magic ships, it occurs to me that Jon traveled overland from Winterfell to White Harbor and then from there by ship to Dragonstone in roughly the same time it took Euron's ships. That might hang together if you squint hard enough. If you assume Jon didn't sail up the river to White Harbor and rode the whole way. I guess.
posted by Justinian at 8:37 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Jorah would make a good Lord Commander after all this is over, assuming there's still a Watch. He can be all pining and noble far far away from King's Landing.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:39 PM on July 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Greyworm's fleet had a significant head start since they didn't stop for a sea battle and party at King's Landing, so Euron must have split his fleet up, right? And no one saw it.

How does a fleet miss another fleet in broad daylight, they all traveled the same way is there some secret canal?
posted by Danila at 8:42 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Do we need a separate "Ships only" thread.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:43 PM on July 30, 2017 [83 favorites]

Bran's trip down from the Wall was about that long too, showwise, which may be reasonable given his buggy thing.
posted by gatorae at 8:44 PM on July 30, 2017

Jon: Tyrion talks a lot.
Dany: People like doing what they're good at.
Jon: I don't.
Dany:

Jon is Ned's kid through and through. Seriously, though, you're in a whole other climate zone, how are you wearing furs?

The writing in this episode was pretty good. I'm expecting, and am even fine with, a huge decline in overall quality in order to serve the needs of expediency and closure. Good and believable early reversals from the Lions of Casterly Rock: I really liked Jamie using Robb's trick against Dany, it makes his larger homily about learning from mistakes more honestly earned believable, both as turn of character and of grand strategy. Hopefully, too, it's a little bit of foreshadowing in regards to his sister.

It also sets up another good point that Dany would do well to realize quickly: while she was toppling fat, lazy slavers who hadn't fought a real war in generations, these folks have been honing themselves in the forge of war for what would be almost ten Terrestrial years, I expect.

I also also loved it because it was a genuine surprise: the electron-fan microscope on the trailers had sussed out the Tyrion-Tunnels-Easy Victory angle a long time ago. Having Tyrions "what could have happened" setup was a hollow fakeout, and so to be followed by the smug, "real, easy victory" was pretty predictable. So, imagine my genuine shock when it turns out to be a honey-trap: Dany's most elite forces besieged in a castle on the other side of Westeros.

Seriously - Jon and Cersei are both fundamentally right about one thing: everyone else is fighting yesterday's wars. Who gives a shit about Casterly Rock anymore? Winter is coming and you can't eat prestige, but you can loot Highgarden.

Frankly - as shitty as Cercei is - she's at least honest about what she's about. Jamie and Cercei have already discussed the impossibility of a legacy heir and Cercei at least has owned "fuck it, I'm doing it for me."

Dany, by all accounts, can't have children. So, other than "It's Mine, I Want It, I Deserve It!", what is Dany's real legacy plan post-Throne? I mean, "I am young and will figure that out in the decades of my rules" is an inadequate answer that would at least show it's on her agenda. For all her talk of being the People's Champ, her long term plan (assuming the white walkers just melt away) puts Westeros back on the path to civil war - except now with wild dragons - in a generation. That's not great.

Maybe it's sad that I have to say this but I was really, really impressed that they had a scene of two female characters (highly sexualized ones at that) being tortured and killed without even a mention of sexual violence. This show has grown a lot.

I ended up liking this a lot, from a character point of view. It is cruel and spiteful in a way that is also very thoughtful and contemplative, which is Cercei to the core. It's not just lazy, shock, "reach for the most terrible thing on the self because it's terrible" writing. Like, maybe a few seasons ago (or even, if we're being honest, under GRRM's pen), the torture is the expected "Sandor rapes her forever." Instead, like, we get the shot of the two of them just inches from each other, unable to even give comfort in these last hours and days and slow sort of understand of what an honestly horrible end Cercei has built.

As to the ships
I mean, I guess this will always be an inevitable an easy thing to harp about, but frankly the logistics of the entire series has been lazy and inscrutable as hell and they've always played fast and lose with time. I mean, at least Yara's fleet and then the expeditionary transport fleet Euron wrecked were both roughly in the same direction that he would need to go.

I mean, it's a fair critique, but it's not really any more horrible than teleporting Littlefinger or Jon makes it from Winterfell to a Harbor and then sails all the way to Dragonstone which is, by the way, also almost to King's Landing. FWiW, and it's not much, I don't think Euron made it to the Rock before the Dragon fleet and then waiting, I think he arrived after the castle had fallen, but then destroyed the unprotected fleet in the harbor. Which, sure, there is no reason a fleet of ships should sneak up on anyone in the middle of the day with even a small amount of oversight, but I think that's a logistical lazyness that's core to the source DNA, not particular to the ships.

To be fair, though, ships were the actual-historical way to *move relatively fast* for the entire preflight history of the mankind. As far as "get there too fast" cheats go, I can't find it particularly or uniquely egregious.

The Tyrells are straight south from the Lannisters, so Jamie's timetable is the theoretically the most reasonable except it's all over land presumably as winter is setting in. (Shouldn't it be snowing more? Winterfell has the same amount of snow on it as in S1!)
posted by absalom at 9:02 PM on July 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

Robb won a bunch of battles early on, too, but we know how it turned out for him.
posted by gatorae at 9:28 PM on July 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

Did the fabled, ancestral stronghold of House Lannister not have any sewers at all until Tyrion was old enough to take charge of building them?

Shitting gold indeed.
posted by rewil at 9:37 PM on July 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

I will miss Lady Olenna

I called this two weeks ago with Twin Peaks and will do the same here - you never see her actually die. She's fully cognizant - not even 'poisoned and weak' fumbling - when Jaime leaves the room. Anyone who doesn't die on screen (and even some that do) cannot be assumed dead. She's obviously versed a bit in poisons, since she had arranged for this meet to happen after the attack she may have some Ipecac on the shelf there or whatever other antidote.

Hodor's still out there as well, mark my words.
posted by FatherDagon at 9:48 PM on July 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

The Lord of Fire and Lady in Red do seem to be at loose ends now that ice and fire have been united.
posted by jojo and the benjamins at 9:52 PM on July 30, 2017

I loved:

Torture! Cersei's Queen Koopa outfit
Sansa using her knowledge of traditionally feminine things like food management and clothing to set up Winterfell for the Long Night
Olenna just GLUPING the poison. She knows when it's time to go out.
Jon being well meaning but obviously not very bright.
Jamie totally having VERY VISIBLE DOUBTS about the course his sister-lover is on.
Eulon being King Shit Of Fuck Mountain, he's a great bad guy, it's very Henry the 8th, brash and mean and vain and flashy and theatrical and reveling in being awful.
posted by The Whelk at 9:56 PM on July 30, 2017 [9 favorites]

My thoughts and observations:
• I like the dynamic between Dany and Jon. Two walking/talking chess pieces. The game is still open, but we're in the end game and every move is dangerous.
• I really love Sir Davos. I kind of just want a second or third in command drinking scene: Sir Davos, Jorah Mormont, Sandor Clegane, & Bronn. Just getting shit-faced and talking smack about their A-list brothers and sisters. Just make it happen.
• As much as I loved the Dany/Jon dynamic, I loved Tyrion/Jon's scene even more. Two bastards talking above a tall vista, the callback is so obvious, but I don't even give a fuck. It's just enjoyable watching Tyrion school Jon again, the older "brother", well maybe "stepbrother" Jon never had.
• Cersei kiss-of-death-ing her enemies. She's a horrible bitch, but I love watching her play that role. So much like her son.
• The Queen of Norf getting shit done. Also, how dumb is their blacksmith/armorer. Metal and winter do not mix, you'd think living in the North he might already be aware of that. I'm glad Sansa has her head on her shoulders.
• Bran, stop being a cryptic weirdo. It doesn't suit you. Not one bit.
• Does everyone else immediately think of Stephen King whenever they heard the words "Casterly Rock"? No? Just me. I guess that was a cool battle sequence.
• Euron has a magic fleet right? I mean it's magic in the same way that dragons and white walkers are magic, how else do we explain the way he just magically appears wherever a screenwriter wills him to appear.
• Lady Olenna will be missed. Talk about mic drop. *BOOM*
posted by Fizz at 10:06 PM on July 30, 2017 [6 favorites]

Great quote re Sansa: "She's smarter than she lets on." "She's starting to let on."

Ice and fire together, blah blah blah, little mad Melisandre got to say what I've been saying will happen since the first season but WHATEV.

I can't remember if I mentioned this last week, but I just love the Dragonstone throne set. The movement in the jutting diagonal stone is gorgeous. I love it.

Davos being all, "This is Jon Snow," was hilarious. A++++ would use as herald again. However, way to give away your boss's secrets! Was Davos that chatty when Stannis was his boss?

Jon says, "My own father fought to overthrow the mad king," which is probably still true even though he's not Ned's son. (He was also all "I'm not a Stark" so this ep was full of Jon saying things that are true but not for the reasons he thinks.)

The brooding jokes were hilariously self aware, and yet beautifully in character for Tyrion. By contrast, I thought like Cersei's conversation with the iron banker was a bit too modern.

"I thought you were the Three-Eyed Raven," "It's difficult to explain" -- BITCH, it's not difficult to explain that the old Three-Eyed Raven died and you took his place, unless there is some time-traveling going on like that Bran the Builder was actually you warging into the past or whatever shit you do to go to the past when Three-Eyed Ravening, and so old dead TER was actually BRAN but Bran after he went into the past, became Bran the Builder, built the wall, and became the TER. Which he will be forced to do because in some way saving the present/fixing the wall means he has to travel to the past and build the wall in the first place? Anyway I didn't love his reunion with Sansa scene because as hard as Sansa's hair was emoting, it would have been good to see some emotion on Bran's face too.

Sam remains the bravest of all! Touching Jorah's greyscale hand like Obama and the ebola lady!

The battle at Casterly Rock was literally the best-lit battle scene of the whole series.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:09 PM on July 30, 2017 [21 favorites]

Euron wasn't this fey last season, was he? Like, he got a personality transplant over the break, right?
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:11 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

I just assume he didn't want to say there's always been a three eyed raven as a MYSTICAL POSITION and it transsences time and space and I'm not totally sure if my old aged self didn't give it to me or indeed that was the mythical Bran the Builder who may also be me but basically I'm outside the 4th dimension now and things are weird

I mean long story short he says he's a time lord and its about the same thing .
posted by The Whelk at 10:14 PM on July 30, 2017 [7 favorites]

Theon. Don't forget the Ironborn contemptuously stepping over him. Why is he still alive? Whatever plot twist is coming better support his continued existance.
posted by jojo and the benjamins at 10:14 PM on July 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

"I feel bad for Ellaria. She and Oberyn were great."

She and Oberyn were great together and Oberyn was awesome, but I lost all sympathy for her when she killed Myrcella (and Doran). I've strongly disliked here since and I found Cersei's revenge satisfying, as disturbing as it is to admit to rooting for Cersei. That's going to be the only time that happens.

Is it just me, or do John and Dany have chemistry and really work together much better than I expected them too? I've been skeptical about the two of them, but I found their scenes together very compelling, especially the two of them alone.

I agree a little bit with the comment above that Dany is pretty full of herself, but I forgive this simple because the show has repeatedly set her up as the truly most strong-willed and dangerous force in this whole story. So I found it of a piece. I don't think she will go mad like her father, but maybe only because she will work at avoiding it.
posted by Ivan Fyodorovich at 10:16 PM on July 30, 2017 [8 favorites]

I also like that Jon (or his delegation) pushed his revolutionary actions in binding together the Northerners and Wildlings against a common threat to match Danny's breaking of the slave lords.

Its like see, we're both trying to break the wheel! good diplomacy.

Also, as mentioned on Twitter, doesn't Dorne have ..an army? why isn't it SUPER PISSED?

(I choose to believe Dorne is like Spain post Napoleonic war and in such a multi-sided civil war it cant even with outside things)
posted by The Whelk at 10:19 PM on July 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

i hope she goes just a little bit mad so people get fed to the dragons
posted by poffin boffin at 10:21 PM on July 30, 2017 [3 favorites]

I could watch the scene of Lady Olenna breaking Jamie's heart over and over again. So satisfying. Especially after that smug little speech about how he encouraged Cersei to be merciful. I will miss Lady Olenna and I'm hoping she's right, that Cersei will turn on Jamie. In the meantime, Dany is fuuuucked.

That was a thing of beauty. Her description of Joffrey's death was practically as disturbing as actually watching his death. And I loved how she made sure to drink the poison before pissing Jaime off, so that she'd get a merciful death from him before living just long enough to make him regret giving it to her.

Although it's true, maybe she was just trying to piss him off as quickly as possible so that he'd leave the room in a huff and she'd be able to get to her Ipecac in time ;)

The only way that I can see Jaime betraying Cersei at all is by taking Tyrion's side despite her. And I think Olenna's confession to murdering Joffrey is helping to set something like that up, since that clears Tyrion's name as well. I don't think that Jaime would choose Tyrion over Cersei per se, but I also don't think that he has it out for him the way that she does, and I do think that that could create a wedge between them.

Anyway, you're right -- Dany really is screwed. Her plan to just float around with her dragons and wait to stumble upon Euron's fleet (or whatever) was dumb as hell. As was her decision to pick a fight with Jon, take him prisoner, and ignore all his intel. I mean, even the biggest cold fish on this show, Roose Bolton, was practically giddy over taking control of the North. I remember when he was showing it off to Ramsey, saying that the North was bigger than all the other seven kingdoms combined. Yet Dany just dismisses it. I guess Dany really doesn't even understand how powerful that portion of the kingdoms is. Like she said, she's not really from around these parts.

And not only was Jon coming with the force of the North behind him, but Jon has also brought the Wildlings into the fold -- AND Winterfell is managing to function pretty well while not allied with Cersei, which is a pretty gigantic victory all on its own. I mean, in my mind, Dany should legitimately be considering proposing to Jon and creating the most solid alliance with him/the North possible. If I were her, I would DAMN SURE be going up there with Tyrion to treat with his "wife." But instead, THIS was her response?

Plus, the Ice Zombies should actually be a great opportunity for her. She's got these amazing weapons, the dragons -- why not turn them on the White Walkers, be a big damn hero, and then get her own parade to the top of King's Landing? It's becoming clear that she's not going to win in a traditional war -- which is pretty believable, considering that the person with the most formal martial training in the room at her Queens' Council was probably Theon (SMH). So she needs to incite a rebellion and get the people to do her work for her. She learned about that, and about political alliances, back East.

I guess those were victories, though. Maybe Dany can't learn as well from victories as Jaime can from failures. *shrug.*

I think Dany's biggest problem is basically just that she's bought her own hype. I think she thinks that the seas will just part for her because this is her birthright or whatever. And so far, that's more or less been her path to the throne, at least ever since the dragons were born. But I guess this is what happens when you're lucky for a little too long -- you start thinking you're untouchable. My feeling is, everyone else put in the work. Dany needs to realize that she's got to put in the work, too.

Jon is Ned's kid through and through. Seriously, though, you're in a whole other climate zone, how are you wearing furs?

You know, I feel like Jon is that guy your friend is dating, and you want to be happy for her because he's gorgeous and super nice and will raise gorgeous, nice children and blah blah, but he's so boring and he's making her really boring, too.

He's the friend's boyfriend who, you think it's just going to be you and her at brunch but then you walk in and he's there too....and you don't really have a problem with him, because how can you? But ugh. He just never ever has anything interesting to say.

And like you say, @absalom, he's wearing some clothes inappropriate for the weather, like it's winter and he's the guy in shorts, and you're like, "aren't you cold?" and he looks down and chuckles and wants to have a full conversation about his outfit like it's interesting and oh he's so ~zany~ for wearing unseasonal clothes. And let's be honest, it actually is the most interesting thing about him.

And Jon actually should be interesting. I mean first of all, he came back from the dead. Just that alone! But he's just such a doof, I can't ever take him seriously.

But then, I have never really understood or even liked any of the Starks -- with the exception of Sansa. I have always had a soft spot for Sansa, because she's got some real ambition. She's wanted to be a queen since she was a little girl, and inch by inch she's still managed to keep getting closer to that old goal despite everything. There's always that part of me that can't help but love a character that just keeps persisting and slowly, slowly trying to claw her way up to something better than what she's "supposed" to have.

Theon. Don't forget the Ironborn contemptuously stepping over him. Why is he still alive? Whatever plot twist is coming better support his continued existance.

That makes me laugh. I feel like this is the ninetieth time that the Ironborn have hit him over the head or dragged him somewhere or otherwise COMPLETELY shut him down and embarrassed him and then contemptuously stepped over him. He's lucky that at least this time they saved his life and actually let him on the ship.

What I thought was strange is that the Ironborn said that Yara was dead and Theon said yes. Does he actually think she's dead?
posted by rue72 at 10:22 PM on July 30, 2017 [10 favorites]

altho tbh i am not sure who is left that i want to see get fed to dragons
posted by poffin boffin at 10:22 PM on July 30, 2017

I hope that smarmy fucker Gatiss of the Iron Bank gets eaten by a dragon, if we are looking for candidates. For his crimes against Sherlock, mostly.
posted by janell at 10:23 PM on July 30, 2017 [13 favorites]

Also, as mentioned on Twitter, doesn't Dorne have ..an army? why isn't it SUPER PISSED?

I think they were on Yara's boats when Euron burnt them. I think he basically decimated that army, and that's what the big Hero's Welcome parade in the streets was about.
posted by rue72 at 10:24 PM on July 30, 2017

idk it depends which sherlock? like if he was mean to the benny crumbles version then i'll put him on the iron throne.
posted by poffin boffin at 10:26 PM on July 30, 2017

I think Dany's biggest problem is basically just that she's bought her own hype. I think she thinks that the seas will just part for her because this is her birthright or whatever. And so far, that's more or less been her path to the throne, at least ever since the dragons were born. But I guess this is what happens when you're lucky for a little too long -- you start thinking you're untouchable. My feeling is, everyone else put in the work. Dany needs to realize that she's got to put in the work, too.

Like if we're going for TRAGIC FLAW THAT FELLS A HERO this feels like it. Danny just assumes if she screams her birthright and dragons loud enough she'll get what she wants while also ignoring the ice death monsters on the border.

She's SUPER touchy in her first meeting with a member of the Westerosi leadership but that's almost to be expected but that her advisors have to keep pushing her calls to ...bigger problems.

also Mark Gatiss was on my favorite Hollywood history podcast so he gets a pass but I do know the historical result of a bank rep asking a sovereign for back pay is them getting thrown out a window
posted by The Whelk at 10:30 PM on July 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Yeah, the Dornish army was sailing to siege King's Landing with the Highgarden types right?

saying that the North was bigger than all the other seven kingdoms combined. Yet Dany just dismisses it. I guess Dany really doesn't even understand how powerful that portion of the kingdoms is.

It's massive but mostly empty wilderness. Forest and taiga and rocks and, uh, other landscapey features. Kind of like, I dunno, Siberia? Or most of Canada? So it's really big but the population is smaller than the other kingdoms individually much less combined.
posted by Justinian at 10:34 PM on July 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

"he only way that I can see Jaime betraying Cersei at all is by taking Tyrion's side despite her"

Pretty sure Jaime will not only take Tyrion's side at a terribly awkward moment for Cersei, but that Jaime will kill Cersei to complete his redemption arc. And then maybe die heroically or whatever, but he's totally going to kill Cersei.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:34 PM on July 30, 2017 [17 favorites]

Nice uncomfortable look on Baelish's face when the maester mentioned that Luwin kept a copy of every raven scroll.
posted by KathrynT at 10:38 PM on July 30, 2017 [25 favorites]

I mean honestly, if I were Tyrion, I would be hedging my bets right now. It's not so much that Dany is losing, it's that she's not dealing with reality. That doesn't bode well. So if I were Tyrion, I would be pushing to go to Winterfell with Jon (on Dany's "behalf"). Between Jon and Sansa, Tyrion actually has some (personal) allies up there. If he's ultimately going to need to cut his losses with Dany, that would be the best place to be.

BUT I think that, ironically, Tyrion is too loyal and nice and isn't planning to create a Plan B for himself like that.
posted by rue72 at 10:38 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

edward III: hmm how many florentines can i ruin today
royal advisor: your majesty please
posted by poffin boffin at 10:39 PM on July 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

also "You go copy all these scrolls" is totally "you go LOOK AT THESE OLD MANUSCRIPTS VERY CAREFULLY."
posted by The Whelk at 10:39 PM on July 30, 2017 [31 favorites]

It's massive but mostly empty wilderness. Forest and taiga and rocks and, uh, other landscapey features. Kind of like, I dunno, Siberia? Or most of Canada? So it's really big but the population is smaller than the other kingdoms individually much less combined.

True, and believe me, I would not want to be living in the northern expanse myself. But it's still a major house, and it's been relatively insulated from the wars. When the Boltons were occupying it, it seemed like they were keeping reasonably good stewardship and weren't trying to just raid it or anything. So it might actually be in better condition going into winter than some of the better situated houses.

Also, if it's basically the Russia of Westeros, then it's probably a great place for Dany to keep her HQ while she wages war. I don't know if it's still true, but I remember at one point someone (probably Ramsey or Roose?) saying that the Iron Throne's army had never marched that far north. If winter is really horrific up there, then anybody trying to lay siege (aside from the Night King, natch), is probably not going to do so well.
posted by rue72 at 10:45 PM on July 30, 2017

How old was the Sand Snake daughter supposed to be? Like I bought it in the moment because it was well-acted, but the Sand Snakes, and Ellaria, are all killing children for funsies/revenge and then running around the world getting involved in wars, and them being so SHOCKED AND APPALLED the daughter was being murdered by poison seemed a little ... I don't know. I mean, at least she's going to actually die, and probably relatively quickly? Getting killed seems like a risk of the job when you take up murder and poisoning and war and vengeance and whatnot.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:47 PM on July 30, 2017 [4 favorites]

"Also, if it's basically the Russia of Westeros, then it's probably a great place for Dany to keep her HQ while she wages war. "

Moscow has never, historically, been a great place from which to launch offensives against Europe. Its primary advantage is that winter starves out invaders. It's not well-situated for counter-invading. Pretty clearly ditto Winterfell, which is a billion miles from anywhere else.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 10:49 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

Vox tallies up the winners and losers this week
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 11:07 PM on July 30, 2017

Um, Sam, this might be a good time to tell the Mormont fellow who is so grateful to you and who knows Daenerys personally about the return of the white walkers and the need for the dragonglass on Dragonstone. Ya know?
posted by homunculus at 11:14 PM on July 30, 2017 [28 favorites]

Also, as mentioned on Twitter, doesn't Dorne have ..an army? why isn't it SUPER PISSED?

I think they were on Yara's boats when Euron burnt them. I think he basically decimated that army, and that's what the big Hero's Welcome parade in the streets was about.

I thought Yara's Ironborn were going to Dorne to pick up the Dornish soldiers and bring them back up to King's Landing. I remember reading someone using the maps to point out how ridiculous it was that they had to do this since they should have picked them up before coming to Dragonstone in the first place, but since they didn't they now have to make an extra trip.
posted by homunculus at 11:15 PM on July 30, 2017 [1 favorite]

In the final boxed set edition there will be a special feature DVD with a 6 hour long scene of Sam scraping off greyscale with Jorah writhing and grunting the whole time.

Also doubles as a terrifyingly surreal documentary on the Trump administration.

Did the fabled, ancestral stronghold of House Lannister not have any sewers at all until Tyrion was old enough to take charge of building them?

Yeah, that and mother and daughter in chains just out of reach of each other seemed rather Adam West Batman era to me.

Pretty clearly ditto Winterfell, which is a billion miles from anywhere else.

So maybe half an episode to get there from anywhere, moments if by dragon.
posted by juiceCake at 11:18 PM on July 30, 2017

There's no food at Dragonstone but seems like they could have dropped them at Storm's End. Defensible and a good staging point on the mainland.
posted by Justinian at 11:19 PM on July 30, 2017

Euron must keep rolling twenties.

He rolled his character at home.

I remain 100% team queen in the north. Sansa forever.

I HEART canny commanding Sansa. I'm telling myself she's keeping Littlefinger around because he has his uses and he's more dangerous unsupervised but that she knows better than to trust him. Jon seems to understand and respect her intelligence and perspective, and I hope when he gets back they have the sense to form a small council so they can challenge each other's assessments without the political fallout of doing it in front of everybody else.

I have never wanted to see someone's head on a pike more than Sea Ramsey's (RamSea?).

I did have several problems with this episode.

*What's up with Bran's flat affect? I get that he's probably plugged into weirwoods along the way to Winterfell to see what he could see, but he can't see the future, right? So no amount of peeking into the past will reassure any reasonable person about what's coming south. He also seems remorseless about his role in allowing the Night King to breach the TER's cave and destroying Hodor's mind (and getting him killed), and to have failed to understand that this indicates just how much he had left to learn. (In his defense re his convo with Sansa, I think he can only see what the weirwoods see, so even though he witnessed Sansa's wedding he might not have known what followed.)

*Why was Dany so imperious and combative with Jon? She summoned him at Melisandre's behest, to find out what he saw. The implication of Melisandre's suggestion is that whatever Jon tells her will be true and that she should pay attention to it. If she just wanted to summon people to bend the knee she would have sent ravens to all the major houses, not just the one Melisandre advised her to contact. Also Dany's sufficiently well-versed in Westerosi history to name-check Torrhen Stark but not to realize how unprecedented an alliance with the wildlings is? They've been surviving winters north of the wall for centuries; obviously something unnatural and terrifying would have to be happening for them to team up with Jon Snow.

*And why did Jon seem so out of his depth in her court? Ned raised him alongside the other Stark kids. There's no reason he wouldn't have a working knowledge of the pageantry of nobility. He even showed some grasp of this when he executed Janos (I could have the name wrong, you know the guy).

*No Brienne? Not even to shoot a sideways dirty look at Baelish?

*I will be really upset if last week was the last we see of Yara's swashbuckling. Did anyone recognize the dude who picked up Theon? I seem to remember him as one of her top lieutenants but it's hard to keep the Ironborn straight.
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 11:22 PM on July 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

Do we need a separate "Ships only" thread.

I don't think this means what you think it means.
posted by fatbird at 11:37 PM on July 30, 2017 [26 favorites]

Euron wasn't this fey last season, was he? Like, he got a personality transplant over the break, right?

There must always be a fey madman in Westeros.

Ramsay's dead, so this is what we get.
posted by corb at 11:44 PM on July 30, 2017 [2 favorites]

'Sea Ramsey'? Please. Ramsey would fuck Euron up. Ramsey was sadistic for fun, ambition was second. He would still be warden of the north if he wasn't blindsided by a horny Littledingle. Even if he knew that smirking prick had a crush on his wife, he probably couldn't imagine doing anything for love. That was his downfall. Euron's downfall will be Cersei. He thinks he can manipulate Cersei? He is OUT OF HIS DEPTH.

Imagine if Ramsey captured Littledingus, knowing how he feels about Sansa...

Anyhow, Euron is no 'sea Ramsey'.
posted by adept256 at 11:48 PM on July 30, 2017 [5 favorites]

I thought Yara's Ironborn were going to Dorne to pick up the Dornish soldiers and bring them back up to King's Landing.

I think you're right -- but weren't they already coming back and preparing for the battle at the point when Euron attacked? Or were they still just getting ready to leave?

Moscow has never, historically, been a great place from which to launch offensives against Europe. Its primary advantage is that winter starves out invaders. It's not well-situated for counter-invading. Pretty clearly ditto Winterfell, which is a billion miles from anywhere else.

Dany probably should be holding off on the offensives against the rest of Westeros, though, right? I mean, she just had a big portion of her forces slaughtered and burned, and the second prong of her two-prong attack is sitting uselessly in an empty castle. A couple of her top commanders are getting paraded through the streets as captives, and she seems to have no plans to even negotiate for their release. I don't think that she's really cut out for a traditional war. I mean, aside from if she can somehow goad the Lannister forces into killing/starving/freezing themselves trying to take Winterfell, but that doesn't seem to even be on her radar. She needs to regroup.

Personally, my Plan A would be more or less to kill Cersei, marry Jaime, install Tyrion as Sansa's consort in the North, and then focus on combating the White Walkers with the dragons, with the hope that saving everyone from ice zombies will also win sufficient hearts and minds to keep people happy in the "transition" (and maybe even afterward, when they're all starving to death in the long winter that they didn't really prepare for because they were too busy fighting).

It doesn't seem like the Lannisters have any allies except Euron, and he doesn't count because he's basically just a mercenary. Tyrion should be able to deal with him just fine, that's kind of Tyrion's thing. So I think once they cut off the head of the Lannister beast, aka Cersei, there's not really any need for the war between the houses to continue, and everyone can finally get to the good stuff: winter prep and ice zombie killing.

But eh, that kind of plan doesn't seem like Dany's style. She's a conqueror, she's going to want to straight up conquer.

I will be really upset if last week was the last we see of Yara's swashbuckling.

I feel like there's a chance that Yara might survive for a while, because Cersei doesn't have any personal vendettas against her, and might want to keep her alive in case she's able to trade or otherwise use her somehow. And at the same time, Euron seems like he doesn't really want to end the fun by killing her ASAP, either. I mean, maybe he will kill her fast, but he could have killed her on the ship and he didn't, so I don't know that she's actually in immediate danger from him, either.

What I find perplexing is the Iron Born are apparently just assuming that she's dead. If Theon of all people doesn't even consider the possibility that she's been taken captive, I really don't know what to say. Of course, I couldn't really read Theon, because what's there to read on someone who is silently curled up in a hypothermia-ridden ball on a ship deck. So yet again, who knows what the hell he was thinking.

Euron's downfall will be Cersei. He thinks he can manipulate Cersei? He is OUT OF HIS DEPTH.

I think Euron is dazzled by the possibility that his gambit to become king might actually be working out. Based on how excited he's acting, I think that things are going his way even more than he expected. He's probably thinking, "So what they say is true! Shoot for the moon and even if you miss, you land among the stars!"

In the end, they'll buy him off somehow and as he's relaxing into his new digs, Theon, who seems to have more lives than a cat, will probably sneak into his chambers and quietly slit his throat from behind. I don't think that Euron is long for the world, to be honest. But I think that he's too small potatoes for Cersei in particular to be worried about him or the cause of his undoing.
posted by rue72 at 12:03 AM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

right now theon couldn't sneak his way into a wet paper bag.
posted by poffin boffin at 12:08 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Theon did the right thing in not attacking Euron. Euron would have slit Yara's throat and then killed Theon. He might look like a coward but his sister is alive.
posted by rdr at 12:15 AM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

altho tbh i am not sure who is left that i want to see get fed to dragons

-The common people of King's Landing (if you're going to live like blind, stupid sheep then die like blind, stupid sheep)
-Theon
-Euron
-Gregane
-Randyll Tarly
-Qyburn
-Littlefinger
-Pro-slavery Banker (you're from Braavos, what happened to your free men ideas)
-The Hound (you can finish your arc of redemption by filling a dragon's belly)
-Sansa (Yeah, cry me a river, she's annoying. This ep is the first time she's ever actually done anything other than snipe at Jon or be ye olde damsel-in-distress.)

Yes, I've left out Jamie and Cersei. Jamie cries out to be cruelly murdered by his sister-lover and Cersei would give even a dragon heartburn.
posted by jojo and the benjamins at 12:55 AM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

i haven't really come over here often, and never before for this show. i usually read AV club reviews and then peruse the commentary; it is usually pretty astute. but of late, the comments over there just devolve into bro-talk, especially for this show. this week is particularly egregious as it gets really bro-talk. rapey-bro-talk, at that. this is so much better. refreshing! i actually feel like interacting. thanks, mefi, for being cool.

i read just a bit more into the interaction between Olenna and Jaime. yes, she owned her death, and relished that her admission of killing Joffrey was cruelly detailed. but she wasn't simply mocking him. she was reminding him of who he was. and she was drawing parallels: both are Kingslayers.

she got him to concede - via his silence - that Joffrey was a evil little shit. (i really, really wish the writers would have used that term instead of "cunt" - i suppose it is a blighted aspect of the language that so many of our pejoratives are female-gendered, but one can hurl a vicious insult without resorting to "bitch" or "cunt" - it just seems like lazy wrinting.)

anyway, by making this subtle connection, it sets in place a reason/justification for his character to kill Cersei. she is becoming quite similar to the Mad King. so if this comes to be, the groundwork has been laid and is rather astute. if not, it was still a really great bit of writing and acting.

my other thought is, i bet Cersei is keeping Yara alive so that Euron can be bumped off and there is still a royal heir to swear their fealty. Euron is too giddy to realize it - and nowhere near clever enough.
posted by lapolla at 1:01 AM on July 31, 2017 [19 favorites]

Can't forget The Red Woman, of couse, for burning that kid alive.
posted by jojo and the benjamins at 1:13 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Pretty sure Jaime will not only take Tyrion's side at a terribly awkward moment for Cersei, but that Jaime will kill Cersei to complete his redemption arc. And then maybe die heroically or whatever, but he's totally going to kill Cersei.

Yup. My son and I were trying to answer the question of what turns Jaime, by considering the people he cares about, beyond Cersei. Bronn? Brienne? No... Tyrion is the only and the obvious answer.

I think this means that Tyrion will have to be under Cersei's power at some point (ugh, do not want to see), and the Valonqar Jaime will strangle Cersei to save Tyrion. This will be next season. OR--but this would have to be in the series finale or close to it--Cersei actually kills Tyrion, and Jaime strangles her in response. Leaving the Lannisters finally decimated and Jaime a broken man with neither home nor family nor anything to live for. Not to mention, a Queenslayer.

As has been noted above, Olenna's confession, serving as it does as exoneration for Tyrion, begins to set all of this up. As does the rest of her speech, in which she concludes that it's too late for Jaime to change course and abandon Cersei (not true--as Olenna's dying confession may actually set that course change in motion).
posted by torticat at 1:21 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

There's no food on Dragonstone but you can see every farm in Northern Ireland from there.
posted by vbfg at 2:34 AM on July 31, 2017 [27 favorites]

Nice uncomfortable look on Baelish's face when the maester mentioned that Luwin kept a copy of every raven scroll.

Good point. When I watched it I assumed Baelish was thinking, like me, "How does this garbage Maester not know the length of the longest recent winter?"
posted by paper chromatographologist at 3:36 AM on July 31, 2017 [22 favorites]

Dr. Branhattan
posted by DoctorFedora at 5:53 AM on July 31, 2017 [26 favorites]

Theon. Don't forget the Ironborn contemptuously stepping over him.

Oooh, I did like that line when Theon was all, "I tried to save her!" and Ironborn Sailor Guy was like, "if that was true you wouldn't be alive now." Good burn, Ironborn Sailor Guy!

I really liked the confrontation between Dany and Jon over kneeling because yes, Dany was totally insufferable and unrealistic, but in her insistence I feel like she gave flashes of Viserys/madness. I like the reminder that people might have legitimate doubts/fears about letting another Targeryon come into power, given their not-that-distant history.

And while I found the Sandsnakes totally tedious and never even learned their names, I did find it really touching at the last surviving daughter's blurted out, "Mama!" after Cersei gave her the poisoned kiss. That was a really well acted scene all around, I thought. Much better than Euron's arrival at the Iron Throne where Ellaria and the daughter are just sort of awkwardly sprawled on the steps.
posted by TwoStride at 6:02 AM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

The Dornish army is still around. The boats were on their way to Dorne, as Ellaria is flirting about "when we get to dorne we can have good wines" etc. But they are far away and lord knows where their loyalty lies? With the captured lady who killed their former ruler?
posted by French Fry at 6:13 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Where are the Dothraki armies right now?
posted by drezdn at 6:25 AM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

It does suck that Jon is such a poor diplomat that he can't just say. "If I bend the knee you'll be getting JUST me and Davos, every lord in the north will turn against you, you'll gain 10,000 new enemies in a country your armies can't fight in. If we're allies I can serve you as warden in all but name and we can actually accomplish something"

Like that was some classic plot via "people not saying obvious things" that I was finding a little tiresome.
posted by French Fry at 6:26 AM on July 31, 2017 [20 favorites]

Where are the Dothraki armies right now?

Looks like at least some of them are at Dragonstone, since those were Dothraki who took Jon's sword on the beach.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:27 AM on July 31, 2017

Don't the horses have to be somewhere though? Dragonstone doesn't seem to have much in the way of grass.
posted by drezdn at 6:30 AM on July 31, 2017

I absolutely loved that they actually showed the conversations about magical stuff like Three Eyed Raven and wights and Nights Kings and we got to see everyone be like uhhhhhhh oook. My favorite was Jon cutting off Davos because the resurrection is just a bridge too far.

If you are going to go around trying to recruit allies for a battle with supernatural undead you might want to flash your one bit of supernatural undead cred.
posted by srboisvert at 6:35 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

-Sansa (Yeah, cry me a river, she's annoying. This ep is the first time she's ever actually done anything other than snipe at Jon or be ye olde damsel-in-distress.)

I was totally on board with your list of people until you got to this.

Uh, what about foiling Jon's stupid-ass death wish by bringing the Littlefinger and the knights from the Vale to take back Winterfell? What about specifically warning Jon about the games that Ramsay likes to play? What about making a very deliberate choice to lie brilliantly to the inquiry panel after Littlefinger shows auntie the Moon Door? What about refusing to go with Brienne, because Sansa has no reason to trust her?

WHAT ABOUT DELIBERATELY CHOOSING TO FEED RAMSAY TO HIS DOGS AND STANDING THERE TO WATCH

I mean, there's a pattern of people rolling into these threads and conveniently forgetting all the times that Sansa has done really important, really cool stuff. It's really fucking annoying.
posted by joyceanmachine at 6:36 AM on July 31, 2017 [50 favorites]

I was a bit puzzled by the attitude of the Iron Islanders who picked up Theon. Why do they get to criticize him for surviving when they did too? Surely they all fled.
posted by srboisvert at 6:39 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

I thought Reek (he's back to Reek now) told the Ironborn that "Euron took her" not that she was dead? Or maybe I missed something.

Greyworm is still alive so everything's ok for the moment.

Can Dany just send her dragons off with instructions or does she have to be with them? Can she just like let them smell something of Cersei's and they're like hounds that will sniff her out? Dany's right that she needs to burn Euron's fleet. He's now been part of 2 surprise attacks. I'm just going to be sad and hope that they're not good enough with the ballista (that's the dragon crossbow thingy right?) to take out all 3.
posted by LizBoBiz at 6:42 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Won't Euron be kind of useless now that there's no need for someone on the seas?
posted by drezdn at 6:59 AM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Can Dany just send her dragons off with instructions or does she have to be with them?

I think she needs to be riding Drogon. They're trained to respond to commands but she still needs to give them in real time.

And I just realized Bran has totally seen things beyond the weirwoods and was just being unnecessarily awful Dr. Branhattan. Ugh. I retract my earlier defense.
posted by Fish, fish, are you doing your duty? at 7:03 AM on July 31, 2017

Bran "Cryptically Ruining Everything" Stark is definitely the most worthless Stark with Rickon "Serpentine" Stark and Robb "Thinkin' with My Dick" Stark not too far behind. Jon, being not really a Stark, is still an idiot but at least has good advisors helping him out. Only the women really can be trusted alone. It's the most realistic part of the whole show.
posted by dame at 7:08 AM on July 31, 2017 [24 favorites]

A couple thoughts:

- Oh thank God, Greyworm is still alive. When he took off his helm while being like WHERE R THE LANNISTERS, I was convinced that a ballista bolt was going to come out of nowhere and spear him through the eye. Thanks, show!

- I was delighted with the semi-fake-out with where the Lanister army was going to show up, because I thought they were gonna do a "we'll let them take the castle, and then we'll besiege them!!!" kinda nonsense, which led to both me and Mr. Machine screaming at the TV. Nope, let's just roll up on the Tyrells and their fertile farms.

- GODDAMMIT I ALREADY MISS YOU DIANA RIGG. :( A lot of the actors on the show need help keeping things on the rails -- I'm looking at you, Kit Harrington and Emilia Clarke, whose performances go up and down the quality scale, depending on the director and the script.

And it's part of the reason that I loved having Riggs and Charles Dance. They're fucking pros. They've spent decades at their craft. They don't need to be babied. They don't need to be told to think through their character. They have done everything from Hollywood blockbusters to crap ITV dramas from the 1980's, where the script was written in the morning, and the scenes were shot in an afternoon in an unheated studio outside Manchester. They know how to make the most of a limited role. They know how to carry a stupid line and make it sound much, much cooler.

They were fucking professional. When she was in a scene, you knew that her liens would be well-delievered, well-timed, and competently acted. So yeah, I'm gonna miss the Queen of Thorns. Plus, I loved the head-nod to one of my favorite scenes in the entire series so far, where she and Tywin are sparring about their kids over a table.

- Side note: from a content POV, I loved her implicit admission that she and Tywin aren't all that different, in the end. I also love her admission that she's done unspeakable things in service of her family, too -- I think there's a tendency to think of Tywin as much "worse" than Olenna. It's easy to forget just how hard Olenna is because she's an old lady and, also, because we see her loving relationship with Margaery and see how she sticks up for her gay grandson when dominant social mores indicate she wouldn't. Further, she doesn't come into the show skinning a deer, like Tywin, but, my GOD, she fucking drops it on the way out where Tywin. Y'know.

- Simulatneously, though: I understand the internal psychology of why she'd gulp the poison, then tell Jamie about doin' Joffrey. But if her whole idea is to plant seeds to get Jamie to turn on Cersei, it's a gamble -- Jamie went against Cersei to push for a humane death for Olenna, but Olenna is taunting him over his choice to give her mercy, which pushes him back towards Cersei and her US AGAINST THE WORLD line. On the other hand, her admission makes it clear that Cersei was wrong to persecute Tyrion for Joffrey's death.

Basically, Olenna is giving Jamie the emotional case for sticking with Cersei, while reminding him of the tactical, factual, rational reasons to betray her. If she's trying to push him away from Cersei, then it's essentially a gamble that his brains and sense of honor and LEARNING FROM HIS MISTAKES will triumph over his emotional bond with Cersei. It's gonna be interesting.

- Sorry, guys. I laughed out loud at Euron trolling Jamie.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:13 AM on July 31, 2017 [27 favorites]

TwoStride: It was sort of obvious as a money-saving measure, but I actually thought that Tyrion's Voiceover To Battle was a really good shorthand for, you know, showing more battle. Well done, show.

It's also a time-saving device, allowing the focus to jump from Casterly Rock to Highgarden quickly and seamlessly, while also including some momentary mystery - where are the Lannister forces, if not at Casterly Rock? Ooh right, looting an enemy's castle for gold.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:19 AM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

If you are going to go around trying to recruit allies for a battle with supernatural undead you might want to flash your one bit of supernatural undead cred.

Yeah, there was a great missed opportunity for more one-upsmonarchship there:

"... you came back from the dead? You expect me to believe this?"

"... asks the Mother of Dragons?"

posted by fatbird at 7:19 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Don't the horses have to be somewhere though?

The plot doesn't call for them, so no, they don't have to be anywhere at the moment.

I mean, there's a pattern of people rolling into these threads and conveniently forgetting all the times that Sansa has done really important, really cool stuff. It's really fucking annoying.

It's a terribly written character, though I tend to like her. For instance, it's great that Sansa knows enough to tell an amorer to use leather too, but shouldn't he know that already? It feels like a very contrived scene to show Sansa can manage things. Far better would been having her do and say this stuff episodes ago, at least.

She's been saying for a while now that she knows exactly what Baelish wants, since her time at the Vale at least. But we've seen little of her doing anything with that information, there's been no build to it. That's the annoying thing about how Sansa has been written.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:20 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

It's the most realistic part of the whole show.

Yeah, no. Smart, qualified lady trying to manage up, but also being unable to control her irritation at her fundamentally decent, but not-very-bright dude boss announcing a major decision ON THE CONFERENCE CALL WITHOUT GIVING HER A HEADS-UP BEFOREHAND????

Add on that he subsequently turns to Sansa and is like, hey, are you ready for this incredible career opportunity to handle all the fall-out from my surprise decision, and I was basically yelling for Sansa to ask for a raise and more PTO.
posted by joyceanmachine at 7:23 AM on July 31, 2017 [20 favorites]

Brandon Blatcher: Marvelous last move by Oleana Tyrell.

I'm really hoping she poisoned all of her own wines, much like the Lannister troops emptying their larders, making the win a loss. (Also, I kind of hope that Lady Olenna pulled a Westley and is pretty much immune to poisons at this point. She's old enough that she should have had numerous attempts on her life, but she's survived them all.)

I was reading a lot into this exchange:
Jaime: Not much to be gained from discussing it with you, though, is there?
Olenna: What better person to discuss it with? What better guarantee could you have that the things you say will never leave this room?

dun dun dunnn!!!

Hume: Also, its very easy to explain what being the Three Eyed Raven is.

Fizz: Bran, stop being a cryptic weirdo. It doesn't suit you. Not one bit.

You have to remember, he's a sulky teen now. And not just that, he's the kind of teen who has started writing really deep poetry, the kind you just don't understand. (At least, that's how I viewed him.)

armadillo1224: The actor must be in his late teens by now.

poffin boffin: he's a member of AARP by now

To be fair, if we're only considering Starks, he's definitely one of the old ones. Heck, in these fantasy medieval times, the age distribution curve is pretty bleak, with 40s marking the beginning of the long tail.

jojo and the benjamins: Theon. Don't forget the Ironborn contemptuously stepping over him. Why is he still alive?

I wanted them to mutter "What is dead may never die, mumble mumble rises again, blah blah blah." At least they didn't step on him like he wasn't there.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:38 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

I loved Lady Olenna's speech as much as the next person, but as for Jamie in that scene, it's hard to see why he didn't give her an agonizing gut wound with his sword about four seconds after she admitted to horribly murdering his son, leaving her to die suffering, merciful wine poison or not. Not saying it's a thing I'd feel good about personally, just saying it seems like the Lannister way to react.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 7:42 AM on July 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

"I'm stepping on you! I see you there, but I know you are probably still alive because of cowardice. Anyways, have a good day."
posted by drezdn at 7:43 AM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

lapolla: this is so much better. refreshing! i actually feel like interacting. thanks, mefi, for being cool.

Welcome! But beware the ship truthers, they're kinda hardcore (kidding/ not kidding).

Seriously, I'll echo the appreciation for these discussions, as y'all help me watch this show more critically, and provide good links to other commentary (and jokes), filtering out the broad noise of the internet.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:44 AM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Theon. Don't forget the Ironborn contemptuously stepping over him. Why is he still alive?

Plotwise? I think it's because he'll sacrifice himself somehow and redeem himself (kinda) with his death.

Practically. He's Billy Carter, the screw-up sibling to Yara, who has their respect and service. They're not going to let him die, heck, Yara might still live, but they don't respect him.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:44 AM on July 31, 2017

I loved Lady Olenna's speech as much as the next person, but as for Jamie in that scene, it's hard to see why he didn't give her an agonizing gut wound with my sword about four seconds after she admits to horribly murdering his son and she would die suffering, merciful wine poison or not. Not saying it's a thing I'd feel good about personally, just saying it seems like Lannister way to react.

Ditto. Guy went out of his way to let her die painlessly, and she effectively spits in his face (I mean she was aiming for Cersei, but still).

I'm shocked he didn't stab her. I suspect he was just too stunned by processing the information.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:47 AM on July 31, 2017

drezdn: Euron must keep rolling twenties.

And dropping the dopest beats! I can't un-see him as Eurotrash DJ, and I look forward to re-scoring of his cocky scenes with bro-step EDM.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:48 AM on July 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Being dragged around on a sled all the time really stretches a person out.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 7:54 AM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

I mean, there's a pattern of people rolling into these threads and conveniently forgetting all the times that Sansa has done really important, really cool stuff. It's really fucking annoying.

At this point I'd take Sansa over Kelly C in a heartbeat. Without her advisors Kelly C is prone to really dumb decisions. Sansa's the only one in the game to rule* who 1. seems to know what the fuck she's doing 2. isn't dim, and 3. isn't crazy or a sociopath. She went to one hell of a finishing school, but it worked wonders on her competence.

*Varys and Tyrion don't count because they'd never be allowed to King.
posted by leotrotsky at 7:54 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

... but as for Jamie in that scene, it's hard to see why he didn't give her an agonizing gut wound with my sword about four seconds after she admits to horribly murdering his son and she would die suffering, merciful wine poison or not.

Same reason he didn't attack Euron for all the stuff he said about the love his life and actual Queen, that's not the way he rolls. Euron and Olean played on that very well.

He didn't gut her because she revealed that Tyrion *didn't* kill Geoffery. He's thankful for that on some level, even as he's outraged. 'Cause Jamie is sort of spoiled rich kid, he's slowly learning to be something more.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:58 AM on July 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

That's a solid answer, really.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:00 AM on July 31, 2017

I loved Lady Olenna's speech as much as the next person, but as for Jamie in that scene, it's hard to see why he didn't give her an agonizing gut wound with his sword about four seconds after she admitted to horribly murdering his son, leaving her to die suffering, merciful wine poison or not.

My take was that he was actually relieved to finally get confirmation that it wasn't Tyrion (and then the wheels were turning with what happened with Tyrion, Oberyn, Marcella, Tywin due to Cersei's misplaced vengeance).
posted by mama casserole at 8:01 AM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

At this point I'd take Sansa over Kelly C in a heartbeat

Is this an in-joke, or an absolutely incredible autocorrect error?
posted by joyceanmachine at 8:05 AM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Yeah, I was kinda wondering who the fuck Kelly C is.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:07 AM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Khaleesi ... Kelly C. Get it? (If not, say it out loud.)

I'm guessing it's a voice-to-text error / correction.
posted by filthy light thief at 8:09 AM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

I, too, would prefer Sansa win out over Kellyanne Conway
posted by the phlegmatic king at 8:38 AM on July 31, 2017 [37 favorites]

I was a bit puzzled by the attitude of the Iron Islanders who picked up Theon. Why do they get to criticize him for surviving when they did too? Surely they all fled.

I don't think the Iron Born have a problem with fleeing per se -- they don't seem to have a whole lot of honor. I think they just think Theon is a hopeless loser and were calling him out on it yet again.

But I'm also curious about them specifically being like, "so, Yara's dead." Are they saying that because if she's dead, then they have control of the fleet? I mean, who does control fall to at this point?

Are they going to deliver Theon to Euron and just rejoin the rest of the Iron Born? To be frank, that's what I would do in their place. Euron will probably let them rejoin if they give him Theon, and it's not like Theon's any use to them otherwise. I'm wondering if that's why they fished him out of the water in the first place.
posted by rue72 at 8:38 AM on July 31, 2017

then they have control of the fleet? I mean, who does control fall to at this point?

Didn't they say the fleet was down to one ship?
posted by drezdn at 8:43 AM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

If Jon would just tell the story of the Night King raising the dead, I'm pretty sure he'd get much closer to the pants-shitting, oh-no-the-Army-of-the-Dead-is-coming reaction he is looking for.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:48 AM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

it's great that Sansa knows enough to tell an amorer to use leather too, but shouldn't he know that already?

The armorer at Winterfell was specifically killed years ago, so whatever armorer is there is probably a jumped up apprentice who doesn't know how to deal with Winter.
posted by corb at 8:52 AM on July 31, 2017 [18 favorites]

Those furs did look awfully hot. I did like how Tyrion, having watched Jon Snow blunder through his first meeting, had to carefully lead him through the diplomatic process: "So, do you have anything reasonable to ask?"

Presumably soon Jorah arrives at Dragonstone to take over the military-tactician role? Because Tyrion's plan does not seem to be working well and his blustering about winning at Blackwater is running thin.

Varys appears to be marked for death and I am NOT HAPPY ABOUT THAT.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 8:55 AM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

While GoT has had a number of terrific directors work on the show, I hope to all that is good that when the episode comes that has the humans vs. the Army of the Dead battle that Neil Marshall is available to direct it.

Marshall directed the amazing battle in "Blackwater" so he's well known to GoT fans. But he's also IMO, one of the very best working directors when it comes to horror/action battles. He would rock the shit out of that.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 9:07 AM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

She's obviously versed a bit in poisons, since she had arranged for this meet to happen after the attack she may have some Ipecac on the shelf there or whatever other antidote.

Surely she spent the last few years building up an immunity to iocane powder, right?
posted by dnash at 9:07 AM on July 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

I guess we got a kind of answer about what Littlefinger's leaning-and-scheming is about: he's been busy fighting every battle everywhere always in his mind.

He is the WOPR of Westeros. A strange game; the only winning move is not to fight.
posted by We had a deal, Kyle at 9:14 AM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

So far unmentioned, but the Jamie's "shouldn't we be moire discreet about our incetous relationship , the thing that set all the events of this damned drama in motion?" but really felt like the last brick in his mental edifice if "oh shit I'm going to have to kill my sister if I'm going to get out of this with any kind of redemption."

That was totally what the scene with Olenna was about and it's been growing in the back of mind ever since he lost his hand. The spoiled rich asshole who tosses a kid out a window is *learming*.
posted by The Whelk at 10:09 AM on July 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Didn't they say the fleet was down to one ship?

Probably, but there are apparently still some living Ironborn that fought alongside Yara. That's all who I mean. If they're only down to one ship, all the more reason for them to dump Theon with Euron, ask for clemency, and just rejoin the rest of their countrymen at Euron/Cersei's beck and call. It's not like they can sustain any kind of rebellion on their own, and without Yara, why would they even bother?

i bet Cersei is keeping Yara alive so that Euron can be bumped off and there is still a royal heir to swear their fealty. Euron is too giddy to realize it - and nowhere near clever enough.

I don't think that Yara is useful as a royal heir, seeing as she already lost the Salt Throne to Euron despite him confessing to murder/fratricide/regicide right there at the Kingsmoot. But she could be useful as a backup naval commander. If Euron is too much of a pain in the ass, or ends up dead, at least they've got someone else waiting in the wings who could have the skills and knowledge to lead the Iron Fleet.

Also, Yara could have (bargaining) value as a POW. Not really with the Ironborn who, based on Theon's experience, don't seem to negotiate for prisoners and apparently just write off anyone as soon as they're captured. But maybe to Dany. And it's generally not prudent to just kill her when she might still have value. That said, Cersei isn't generally prudent, so.
posted by rue72 at 10:17 AM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Yeah, that and mother and daughter in chains just out of reach of each other seemed rather Adam West Batman era to me.

This was Cersei echoing the Mad King. Aerys did something similar to Rickard and Brandon Stark.
posted by elsietheeel at 10:34 AM on July 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

Assassinating Cersei is the only move Daenerys has got left at this point, right? Isn't that what she should have done right from the start? We've had a lot of indications that Westeros is sick of wars, and resources are already stretched thin with winter arriving. Cersei doesn't even have an heir, and she's tremendously unpopular. Assassinate her and you create a power vacuum that pretty much only Dany has any decent claim to fill (in the show at least). Why were her advisors not pushing this relatively bloodless option earlier? And Melisandre's right there! What, her heart's not in the murderous smoke baby game anymore? It doesn't make sense to me why this hasn't even been presented as a choice in the show.
posted by aiglet at 10:42 AM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

And another gripe - Dany was touted as this champion of the common people, breaker of chains, etc. But since she's in Westeros have we even seen her interact with a single peasant? Get to know a few of the subjects she's trying to rule? In Essos she chose advisors who were picked from the ranks of the subjugated, but in Westeros she is surrounded by the same old nobles and courtiers who have been pushing these wars for decades now. The show is really not even trying to build some compelling reason for any Westerosi to *want* Dany to be their Queen, which goes against Dany's own development as a just and *chosen* ruler. What was the point of all those scenes of diplomacy and burned goats and what have you in Essos if Dany is going to come to Westeros and turn into another clueless entitled tyrant? Dany's leadership arc right now makes no sense to me.
posted by aiglet at 10:50 AM on July 31, 2017 [16 favorites]

tbh it's kind of endlessly hilarious (while obviously deeply tedious at the same time) how people struggle to find a million little details to "prove" how sansa is a "garbage character" unworthy of our time or merit. even ramsay's awfulness doesn't get the same determined attention to detail.

so many people, frightened of a teenage girl

chefkiss.gif
posted by poffin boffin at 10:54 AM on July 31, 2017 [28 favorites]

Jon says, "My own father fought to overthrow the mad king," which is probably still true even though he's not Ned's son. (He was also all "I'm not a Stark" so this ep was full of Jon saying things that are true but not for the reasons he thinks.)

Not just Jon, but Dany, who said that there will be a Targaryen on the Iron Throne and a Stark at Winterfell.

I think she's right, but she has the wrong Targaryen in mind. Her actions this episode scream "your tragic flaw is hubris." Plus we've seen Jon refuse the call to adventure/leadership twice now. I'm hoping he'll have learned from his mistakes. He was receiving good counsel from Tyrion. If I was your hand . . .
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 11:14 AM on July 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

lapolla: "i really, really wish the writers would have used that term instead of "cunt" - i suppose it is a blighted aspect of the language that so many of our pejoratives are female-gendered, but one can hurl a vicious insult without resorting to "bitch" or "cunt" - it just seems like lazy writing."

Urrrrrrmgph agreed. There was a moment in the Inside The Episode when Littlehead is describing Cersei as a "murderous... vicious woman" and you can tell he had to stop himself from calling her a "murderous bitch".
posted by yeahlikethat at 11:36 AM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

To be honest, I doubt Jaime will really turn on Cersei. It's too obvious an arc not to be subverted, and it's not really in character for him. Sure, he killed the Mad King; but so far as we know, he wasn't sleeping with the Mad King at the time.

I think it's far more likely that Cersei will betray him than that he will turn on her. Although I do see one possible combo, which would be that Cersei betrays Jaime and then he kills her.

I also don't think that either Jon or Dany survive this. If I had to guess, I'd say that Dany will die before the war with the Night King, along with two of her dragons. The fact that Dany is no longer around to control the dragons sets up the need for Bran to Warg a dragon in the final battle.

I think that Jaime will probably survive long enough to lead an army to the war with the Night King.

I think that Jon will die in or just prior to or as a direct result of the final battle with the Night King. I think the true value of Jon and Dany to the final battle will have been that they were essential to maneuvering all of the necessary pieces into play for the ultimate success.

And also that their revolutionary politics will serve as an inspiration to those they leave behind.

I suspect that the end of this sees the Night King defeated, but Westeros with most of the old, great families and institutions completely destroyed or greatly reduced. There might be a Stark or two left alive. Possibly Theon. Maybe Tyrion. Nobody really suited for the Iron Thrown ^(TM). I think the 7 Kingdoms are fractured, and now begins the age of something completely new and untried.

Which means that this was the story of the end of an age. The Night King and White Walkers destroyed forever. The great houses destroyed forever. I think we will see the Iron Throne literally torn apart and/or melted down. Bran will survive at least long enough to expound on this to someone, then will "die" of his wounds, except the lone surviving dragon will then fly off, or maybe a Dire Wolf will suddenly shake itself as if from a bad dream and lope off, or maybe an eagle will scream in the distance, or possibly a bunny will suddenly break from cover, and Pod will casually shoot it with a an arrow and then Meera will be all "WHYYYYYYYY???!!!" And Pod will be all, "What's with her?" "And Brienne will shrug.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 11:45 AM on July 31, 2017 [21 favorites]

Khaleesi ... Kelly C. Get it? (If not, say it out loud.)

I'm guessing it's a voice-to-text error / correction.

Kelly C.
posted by leotrotsky at 11:56 AM on July 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

i tried to save my sister
no you didn't
well, you've got me there
posted by rewil at 11:56 AM on July 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

Chrys Reviews Episode 3: Tainted Love
posted by homunculus at 11:59 AM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Possibly Theon.

Theon, in an abandoned Red Keep, sitting on the Iron Throne, twitching as snow falls all about him.

Zoom out.

Tommy Westphall's snowglobe.
posted by leotrotsky at 12:36 PM on July 31, 2017 [8 favorites]

i need a GoT font poster of WINTER IS COMING inside a snowglobe now, thanks
posted by poffin boffin at 12:39 PM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

To be honest, I doubt Jaime will really turn on Cersei. It's too obvious an arc not to be subverted, and it's not really in character for him.

It's a prophecy though ain't it? I mean Jaime being Cersei's downfall is the obvious twist to her assumption that it will be Tyrion, yes. But which other younger sibling would it be? Arya, I suppose, is not out of the question.

I'm inclined to think the Jaime arc is too poetic not to do though.
posted by atoxyl at 12:44 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

homunculus: Chrys Reviews Episode 3: Tainted Love

"This is Jon."
*That title was longer than our journey here*

#shiptruth
posted by filthy light thief at 12:45 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

atoxyl: I think Jaime could be her downfall without actually turning on her. He might react against her if she betrays him in some manner. Or I could see him acting against her wishes, possibly taking an army north against orders, thus leaving her under protected.

Don't get me wrong. I WANT Jaime to turn against Cersei. We've been told time and again that he's not really as bad as some of his past actions suggest, and he's done some honorable things, too. But it just seems like the kind of obvious arc that the writers like to mess with. If he's going to redeem himself, I think it will be in some less obvious way.

But I could be wrong. With GoT you can always be wrong. Which frankly, for me, is half the fun, even when I'm disappointed.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:53 PM on July 31, 2017

Though Danaerys is unsympathetic in her self-adulation in her meeting with Jon, I'm not convinced this indicates she's not a player in the late endgame. They need somewhere for her relation with Jon to go, so it can't start out perfectly harmonious. I think the "Ice and Fire meeting" angle means that their strengths have to be synergistic.

One of the strengths of her claim (besides her dragons, her Dothraki, and her advisors) is her lineage and its history, so naturally she plays that up. In contrast, Jon Snow is too self-effacing to stir imagination outside of the North.

In Dany's speech I couldn't help rejoining with a little The Big Lebowski Crossover: You're not wrong, Dany, you're just an asshole... She HAS gone through a lot and demonstrated fortitude and leadership; she simply doesn't understand that all major players in Westeros have as well, not on a gut level.

So I'm not sure how this will play out--the "thing" of the series is subverting expectations, but I don't think it's willing to go so far as to drop Dany too early. Cersei has to subvert longer our expectation that she's get her comeuppance; maybe she'll take Jon or Dany (or both) prisoner--just as we needed the Jon-Danaerys meeting I think one or both will need to confront Cersei. Danaerys captured by Cersei would put her in the damsel-in-distress position I don't think is right for her character now, whereas Jon captured would allow his siblings in the North more room for drama and action.
posted by Schmucko at 1:05 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Can Dany just send her dragons off with instructions or does she have to be with them?

I think she needs to be riding Drogon. They're trained to respond to commands but she still needs to give them in real time.

I wonder how well she's going to be able to control three dragons by herself. If only there were someone else with Targaryen blood who might ride one of the other ones...
posted by homunculus at 1:05 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

rewil: Did the fabled, ancestral stronghold of House Lannister not have any sewers at all until Tyrion was old enough to take charge of building them?

Maybe not formal ones. General cleanliness, especially waste disposal, in the Middle Ages had reverted to pre-Roman standards, and the British royal court posted a warning (1589):

"Let no one, whoever, he may be, before, at, or after meals,
Early or late, foul the staircases, corridors; or closets with
Urine or other filth."

That's right - pooping in closets and staircases. So in comparison, a sewer system sounds pretty advanced. In the books (no spoiler now), Tyrion is proud of his work on the sewers, the only thing his father deemed suitable for him to manage.
posted by filthy light thief at 1:13 PM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

She HAS gone through a lot and demonstrated fortitude and leadership; she simply doesn't understand that all major players in Westeros have as well, not on a gut level.

Oh man, that "it's been a long road" moment when Tyrion greets Jon on the beach. I want to see the two of them slipping away to have a drink outside by a bonfire, maybe passing a joint around and finally getting a quiet moment to drop their guards and catch each other up like, dude you will NOT believe the shit that's happened, no man, you won't even... It seems like prime late night TV skit fodder, I would even watch Jimmy Fallon if he managed to get Kit Harrington and Peter Dinklage together.
posted by yeahlikethat at 1:22 PM on July 31, 2017 [6 favorites]

Daenerys has to have a mole, right? There's no way Cersei can or should no such much about naval and troop movements.

And there's no way Cersei will ever work with the others against the White Walkers, right? Not in a way where they'll trust her, because Cersei will always want to have every last one of them killed as foreplay.

Boy, Euron is in for a rude awakening. Or Cersei is at least, Euron's got to be expecting a double cross.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:22 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

But it just seems like the kind of obvious arc that the writers like to mess with. If he's going to redeem himself, I think it will be in some less obvious way.

It may be that he doesn't kill her with his own hands, sure. If we're going to do meta-analysis though I guess it's my feeling that, as with Jon Snow's parentage, some of the big twists that Martin set up early on - which now seem obvious because we've spent so long talking about them - are pretty much going to pan out. This isn't really a book-based insight, I only read the first - there are just certain core things that seem planned in a way that the showrunners can't mess with. At the same time though there are major, major plot developments which might be meticulously planned but which to the audience remain very open-ended - e.g. what the hell is actually going to happen to Jon and Dany in the end.
posted by atoxyl at 1:32 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

How does a fleet miss another fleet in broad daylight, they all traveled the same way is there some secret canal?

It seems to be fairly easy to miss another fleet, if I'm interpreting this correctly. It's a study of visibility at sea in the eastern North Atlantic in the late 1920s, in summer and winter.

The visibility figures employed in the paper have the meanings set out below :

0=Dense fog, objects not visible at 50 yards.
I =Thick fog, objects not visible at I cable (203 yards (app.) ).
2=Fog, objects not visible at 3 cables (405 yards (app.) ).
3=Moderate fog, objects not visible at +mile (nautical).
4=Thin fog or mist, objects not visible at I mile (nautical).
5=Visibility poor, objects not visible at 2 miles (nautical).
6=Visibility moderate, objects not visible at 5 miles (nautical).
7=Visibility good,objects not visible at 10miles (nautical).
8=Visibility very good, objects not visible at 30 miles (nautical).
9=Visibility excellent, objects visible more than 30 miles (nautical).

This is a handy guide to distances between places in Westeros, and includes the crucial-for-shiptruther-purposes section, 'how long to travel-ships.'

"But how fast were they? Assuming ideal conditions (favorable winds, a skilled crew, etc.), a sailing ship could average around 6 knots over a trip. That translates to 168 miles per day, assuming sailing day and night (it wasn’t uncommon to just stop sailing at night, especially in unfamiliar waters or near coastlines). "

So if you assume that GOOD visibility is more than 30 miles, but not by much, and a ship can only travel 168 miles a day IF it travels at night… it's entirely possible that two fleets missed each other in the open sea.

#shiptruther_forever
posted by culfinglin at 1:35 PM on July 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

If Jon and Dany do survive, I'm thinking buddy cop show.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 1:38 PM on July 31, 2017

culfinglin, your comment DELIGHTS ME to the bottom of my #shiptruther_forever bones.
posted by joyceanmachine at 1:40 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Thought: Daenerys needs proof of the White Walkers existence, in order to take Jon really seriously. Sure, she'll get it in time, but by then it's too late.

So Jon's going to get her proof. Either by heading back North to bring a few Wights back. Or Daenerys will travel North (on a dragon with Jon?) to see the army.

If that happens, then they'll think Cersei is small concern (which is correct). Daenerys will probably get all full of herself again, thinking she's the savior aka The Prince or Princess that was promised (never mind that she's a Queen).
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:42 PM on July 31, 2017

Thanks, joyceanmachine! I could not rest until I looked it up because reasons.
posted by culfinglin at 1:56 PM on July 31, 2017

Boy, Euron is in for a rude awakening. Or Cersei is at least, Euron's got to be expecting a double cross.

Could Euron be a contender for the Valonqar?
posted by zerbinetta at 2:00 PM on July 31, 2017

Can't forget The Red Woman, of couse, for burning that kid alive.

Oh, man. I was SO READY for the scene where she meets up with Davos and he figures out what she did to Shireen and finally metes out some justice. What am I going to do with all this popcorn now?
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 2:03 PM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Daenerys has to have a mole, right? There's no way Cersei can or should no such much about naval and troop movements.

I don't think there's necessarily a mole.

The Lannisters and Dornish are old enemies, and the Targaryens and Dornish are old allies, so it would be natural for Cersei to expect Dany to bring in Dornish forces against her. I think Yara wasn't canny enough in her route-planning and was too slow off the blocks getting her fleet launched, and Euron anticipated her.

Tyrion said himself that Cersei thought he was obsessed with taking Casterly Rock, and she was actually correct that it was one of his very first targets.

I think that Dany's war council is just not that experienced or even trained compared to their enemies, and so their moves are easily anticipated and easily blocked. They're outmatched.

All these defeats keep reminding me of how Robb refused to do Trial by Combat against Jaime, because he knew that if he played Jaime's game, Jaime would win. They do need to stop playing Cersei's game. They just aren't going to win doing conventional strategy and going mano-a-mano with Cersei's forces. But I don't really know what Crazy Like a Fox strategy they should try.

And I'm also kind of impatient with the whole war, because it seems so "fiddling while Rome is burning." Like, forget the freaking Iron Throne. You're all going to starve to death unless the White Walkers get you first. What are y'all thinking?! lol.
posted by rue72 at 2:11 PM on July 31, 2017

Could Euron be a contender for the Valonqar?

Well... Theon IS Yara's younger brother. It's not inconceivable that Theon could at some point have both reason and opportunity.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:12 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Brandon Blatcher: Daenerys has to have a mole, right? There's no way Cersei can or should no such much about naval and troop movements.

Hmm... with Melisandre's odd, uncalled for reference to the fact that she and the Spider will die "in this strange country," and last episode's self-defense:

Tyrion (?): Lord Varys has proven himself a loyal servant.
Dany: Proven himself loyal? Quite the opposite. If he dislikes one monarch, he conspires to crown the next one. What kind of a servant is that?
Varys: The kind the realm needs.
Dany: Incompetence should not be rewarded with blind loyalty.
Varys: As long as I have my eyes, I'll use them. I wasn't born into a great house. I came from nothing. I was sold as a slave and carved up as an offering. When I was a child, I lived in alleys, gutters, abandoned houses. You wish to know where my true loyalties lie? Not with any king or queen, but with the people. The people who suffer under despots and prosper under just rule. The people whose hearts you aim to win.

I'm fearing Varys might get caught in his own webs of intrigue while he's "protecting the people," especially if that was foreshadowing for Varys playing many sides at once.

Mr. Bad Example: What am I going to do with all this popcorn now?

Festive popcorn garland?
posted by filthy light thief at 2:15 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

I worded that poorly. I meant, could Euron be one of the possibilities for Valonqar? But I'd love to see Theon grow his spine back...
posted by zerbinetta at 2:16 PM on July 31, 2017

juiceCake: doubles as a terrifyingly surreal documentary on the Trump administration.

While we're pulling politics into this thread: Anthony Scaramucci’s quick political death spells doom for Euron Greyjoy on “Game of Thrones”
posted by filthy light thief at 2:18 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

zerbinetta: Could Euron be a contender for the Valonqar?

It's Raining Florence Henderson: Well... Theon IS Yara's younger brother.

But King Euron Greyjoy is the younger brother of Balon Greyjoy, the Lord Reaper of Pyke and later King of the Iron Islands, and Aeron Greyjoy, a Drowned Man. (Game of Thrones wikia)

Maybe many younger brothers play a part in that prophecy? (Another GoT wikia link)
posted by filthy light thief at 2:21 PM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Well... Theon IS Yara's younger brother. It's not inconceivable that Theon could at some point have both reason and opportunity.

Oh, that's very interesting, especially because of the "after your tears have drowned you" part of the prophecy. That does make me think of the Ironborn and the drowned god.
posted by rue72 at 2:23 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Maybe many younger brothers play a part in that prophecy?

Ha ha ha ha! Euron, Theon, Jaime, Tyrion, Jon, Bran... they all wind up in the throne room and draw straws for the chance to end Cersei. Cersei slips out the back while they're at it and runs into The Hound and The Mountain, who have just fought each other to a near death. She stops to taunt The Hound, who has just enough life left in him to reach out and choke her.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 2:28 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Actually, it would be kind of amazing if Cersei has treated Tyrion badly, in part because of that prophecy, and meanwhile it was Euron all along.
posted by corb at 2:29 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

Oh, man. I was SO READY for the scene where she meets up with Davos and he figures out what she did to Shireen and finally metes out some justice. What am I going to do with all this popcorn now?

Must be pretty stale popcorn. Davos already figured what happened to Shireen last season, confronted Melissandre about it, and had Jon banish her. That's why she was hiding from him in this episode and ultimately leaving Westeros for Volantis.
posted by elsietheeel at 2:46 PM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Like, forget the freaking Iron Throne. You're all going to starve to death unless the White Walkers get you first. What are y'all thinking?! lol.

Oh man. I basically don't give even give a S I N G L E solitary fuck about the white walkers and winter and the wall. Like, my investment is in the intrigue and the characters -- I want to know whether Jamie turns on Cersei, I want to know whether Arya and Sansa ever re-connect, I need to know who wins the murder Littlefinger sweepstakes, I need to know what happens to Yara, and I neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed Missandei and Greyworm to survive.

If I got resolution on those questions, and we cut abruptly to a black screen that read

Then, the wall fell down, but Bran did some magic shit, so it was OK.

I would be 100% satisfied. I recognize that I am totally in the minority here.
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:14 PM on July 31, 2017 [14 favorites]

The Valonqar prophecy has never been mentioned in the show. Y'all are naughty.
posted by Justinian at 3:14 PM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

If I got resolution on those questions, and we cut abruptly to a black screen that read

Then, the wall fell down, but Bran did some warg shit, so it was OK.

Honestly, I would fall on the floor laughing. Probably pass out. Possible heart attack.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:20 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

SORRY I EDITED OUT THE BIT ABOUT WARGING BECAUSE I COULDN'T REMEMBER WHETHER WARGING HAD BEEN SPECIFICALLY REFERENCED ON THE SHOW AND WAS LIKE OH SHIT THAT SHOULDN'T BE THERE PLEASE CARRY ON IT'S THE FUNNIER VERSION
posted by joyceanmachine at 3:22 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

YOU ARE SAFE, WARGING IS TOTALLY A THING ON THE SHOW
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:29 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

ALSO I AM STILL LAUGHING, SEND HELP, PREFERABLY DRAGONS
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 3:31 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

If you are going to go around trying to recruit allies for a battle with supernatural undead you might want to flash your one bit of supernatural undead cred.

When your sales pitch is all about supporting the living over the dead, I'm not sure talking about how you're technically also a zombie but, like, the good kind is going to be super successful, especially when 2/3 of the room thinks you're crazy for talking about any of this at all.

It would be a hoot, though, if the episode had just been 55 minutes of Jon flop-sweating his way through a tortured explanation of all of it. "We all know the Lord of Light, right? I don't really believe in him, but, uh, one of his priestesses did some stuff. Davos knows, he was totally there, and he knows she can do magic from when she gave birth to a demon baby assassin made of smoke!"
posted by Copronymus at 3:35 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

The Valonqar prophecy has never been mentioned in the show. Y'all are naughty.

agh they tricked us because they said the first half but not the last half halp.
posted by corb at 3:37 PM on July 31, 2017

What's the first half again?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:38 PM on July 31, 2017

The golden their crowns and golden their shrouds bit.
posted by Justinian at 3:39 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

I really do think they may play this where we get some of the side characters and broken survivors having to pick up the pieces and create something new. A government. I think maybe Varys will survive. Missandei. Pod. Sam. Theon would be interesting. Tyrion. Arya. Sansa, maybe.

Nah.

Any hope in a subtle or truly subversive end game went out the window for me with the whole "hold the door" schtick. Prophesies come literally true over and over again in this universe and GRRM tends to establish the grounds for these reveals really well (I am specifically thinking of a few prophesies that I am not sure whether they've been indicated on the show or not based on what wikis say. I haven't read the books but have wiki-walked extensively). There are sometimes...reversals or 'shocking' reveals but they tend to be foreshadowed really strongly. On rewatch, Ned's destruction, for example, isn't really shocking--it makes sense given the pattern of character development and writing--but it appears so simply because the normal rules of TV say it shouldn't happen. But it's sensible according to the rules of the show. I don't think that a new government rising from the ashes has been indicated here. Much more likely is Jon Snow, who has claim to the throne by birthright but even more by his genuine desire to help his people, ending up on the throne.
posted by PhoBWanKenobi at 3:39 PM on July 31, 2017

Must be pretty stale popcorn. Davos already figured what happened to Shireen last season, confronted Melissandre about it, and had Jon banish her.

Well, shit. I'd forgotten that. Well, I'm going to keep some on hand anyway, because banishing's too good for her after what she did. Valar popcornis.
posted by Mr. Bad Example at 3:49 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

The Valonqar prophecy has never been mentioned in the show. Y'all are naughty.
agh they tricked us because they said the first half but not the last half halp.
The golden their crowns and golden their shrouds bit.

I thought the "children" part and the "younger queen" part appear directly? I know the "valonqar" part doesn't but that she's long expected Tyrion to kill her for some reason has been alluded to so I thought there was some explanation of that without using the v-word? Do they really just not?
posted by atoxyl at 3:55 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

They really just didn't! Y'all were baaaaaaaaaaaaad.
posted by Justinian at 3:56 PM on July 31, 2017

The younger queen etc stuff did appear, just nothing to do with the valonqar.
posted by Justinian at 3:57 PM on July 31, 2017

Oops, sorry. I legitimately confabulated it because they just mentioned she thinks Tyrion is going to kill her. I guess we're just supposed to go with that? I don't think I even got to that point in the books I must have absorbed it from somebody else talking about it.
posted by atoxyl at 4:02 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

They really just didn't! Y'all were baaaaaaaaaaaaad.

Brb, arranging my shame walk through...man, where's the KL of the US?
posted by corb at 4:07 PM on July 31, 2017

The Valonqar prophecy has never been mentioned in the show. Y'all are naughty.

agh they tricked us because they said the first half but not the last half halp.
posted by corb at 3:37 PM on July 31 [+] [!]

What's the first half again?
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:38 PM on July 31 [+] [!]

One for the Greyjoys on their iron isles,
One for Winterfell where the Starks lead,
One for the Dark Queen on her pointy throne
In the Seven Kingdoms where the Red Keep bleeds.
One thing to rule them all, One thing to find them,
One thing to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Seven Kingdoms where the Red Keep bleeds.
And that one thing is....
[to be continued]

posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:07 PM on July 31, 2017 [9 favorites]

While GoT has had a number of terrific directors work on the show, I hope to all that is good that when the episode comes that has the humans vs. the Army of the Dead battle that Neil Marshall is available to direct it.

I'm personally voting for Miguel Sapochnik to direct that battle (He was the director for Hardhome and Battle of the Bastards.) I had some issues with the narrative background of Bastard Bowl, but that was one of the most magnificently filmed battles. Hardhome was pretty epic too. But if he can't/won't do it, Neil Marshall would be cool with me.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:27 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

I don't care who directs it, so long as it is scored to Led Zeppelin's 'Immigrant Song'.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:34 PM on July 31, 2017 [10 favorites]

I was really rooting for the visitor to Winterfell to be Arya, but I guess it makes sense that it would be Bran. I also hope we don't see Bran again until Jon Snow arrives back in Winterfell, at which point he can finally spill the beans about R+L=J. Also, when is Jon going to ride a dragon? Or at the very least, pet a dragon? I was really hoping when he went down to talk to Dany towards the end of the episode that Drogon would stop by.

Meera should probably just speak on behalf of Bran going forward. Clearly all that time in the cave completely ruined any people skills he previously had. Also any human emotions. I mean, I even teared up at how happy Sansa was to see Bran, and he was just like "whatever." Which I know is purposeful, but it's just really boring.

Bran's new "Three eyed raven" routine is almost as tiresome as Dany's 20 minute long list of titles. I rolled my eyes so hard during that scene in the throne room, though it was almost worth it just to get to have Davos follow up with "This is Jon Snow." I am glad someone finally brought up the whole "being selected to rule" >>> "relying on your father's name, especially when that father burned a whole bunch of people alive and was generally just the worst".

Oh, and I loved Olenna's final scene, but I just wish she could have mentioned Littlefinger's role in Joffery's murder before Jaime walked away.
posted by litera scripta manet at 4:39 PM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Ok, I did giggle at Dany vs Jon Snow at Starbucks.
posted by TwoStride at 4:47 PM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Not sure which is funnier: that image, or that Reddit immediately devolves into an argument about spelling Jon Snow's name?
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 4:50 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Also, I really wish Sansa and Jon hadn't been raised as brother and sister. (I know, they're actually cousins, but it feels much more incest-y when you were raised as siblings.) Because once Jon Snow's true ancestry is revealed, Jon and Sansa would make such a great power couple, ruling all 7 kingdoms.

Now, back to this episode:

I also really enjoyed the Melisandre/Varys scene, especially Melisandre's mic drop moment: "I have to return to this foreign land to die...As do you." (I'm paraphrasing because I don't remember the exact quote.)

The best part about that line is that it doesn't have to be true to still freak Varys out. In fact, I would love it if Melisandre was just secretly like, "Fuck the red god," and now she's going to just go around and troll everyone.

Also, is she going to Volantis to meet up with some other Red Priests? Is there any other reason why she might be heading over there?

And one more question: Why doesn't someone just hop on over to Braavos and hire one of the faceless men to kill Cersei? They can send one of Varys's Little Birds, since apparently the Creepy Assassin Cult works on a sliding scale, so how much could they charge a little orphan child?

And a final question: Why, once they were alone, didn't Tyrion say to Dany, "So, remember how you left behind your boy toy Daario so that you could be able to marry the right suitor to consolidate your kingdom? Yeah, so go marry Jon Snow. He may brood a lot and be a bit bland, but he's hot, and he's currently king of 1/3 of your kingdom by landmass." They'll both be really regretting this oversight when John's real ancestry is revealed, I imagine.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:02 PM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

Actually, overall, this was a great character building episode for a lot of characters:

- Tyrion was absolutely his best self. I loved his reunion with Jon, his little touches of wit and sarcasm, but also the way he orchestrated everything.

- I loved seeing Sansa being awesome as Queen in the North, and how emotional the reunion was with Bran, at least for her.

- Cersei was obviously terrible, but that whole scene with Ellaria was Cersei as her best terrible self, if that makes any sense.

- Olenna is basically always awesome, but that scene with Jaime was just on another level.

- I still wish Jaime would stop mooning over Cersei, but it was nice to see him at least show he's learned a few tricks, like pulling a move out of the Robb Stark playbook.

Despite some quibbles I have, I definitely thought this was the strongest episode of the season so far.
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:09 PM on July 31, 2017 [5 favorites]

Speaking of quibbles: We can see dragons flying all around Dragonstone, but not a single shot of Ghost so far this season? Not even just him gnawing on a bone in the corner somewhere?

(I mean, Ghost should really be with Jon on his trip to Dragonstone, but I know that's apparently too much to ask for.)
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:13 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

I think Jon would have left Ghost in the North, and he should be by Sansa's side, projecting Stark power and getting his head scratched.
posted by homunculus at 5:26 PM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Sam remains the bravest of all! Touching Jorah's greyscale hand like Obama and the ebola lady!

I flashed on Princess Diana shaking the hand of a guy with AIDS, which was huge.
posted by carmicha at 5:43 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

I can't wait for Bran insensitively, unemotionally, and creepily telling Jon about his parents. I'd imagined a lot of things over the years, but Bran's transformstion into a tree person who can no longer emote or interact in a normal way wasn't one of them. "Hello, Jon Targaryean. I'm the Three Eyed Crow. The Night King touched me."
posted by gatorae at 6:21 PM on July 31, 2017 [7 favorites]

Was it wrong to want someone to tell Sansa "Your Uncle Benjen is here!"
posted by drezdn at 6:30 PM on July 31, 2017

The Valonqar prophecy has never been mentioned in the show. Y'all are naughty.

Well, crap. I could have sworn it had. Taking this to the other thread. I have questions.
posted by zerbinetta at 6:31 PM on July 31, 2017

basically don't give even give a S I N G L E solitary fuck about the white walkers and winter and the wall. Like, my investment is in the intrigue and the characters -- I want to know whether Jamie turns on Cersei, I want to know whether Arya and Sansa ever re-connect, I need to know who wins the murder Littlefinger sweepstakes, I need to know what happens to Yara, and I neeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeed Missandei and Greyworm to survive.

I'm with you for the most part, in that I also mostly care about how these characters function/relate/evolve in this batshit crazy and complicated world they've got.

But the Iron Throne in particular seems so irrelevant considering everything else that's at stake. Let Cersei sit on it and have all the starving people of King's Landing eventually break down her gates begging for bread and taking her head instead. Who would want that headache? Why does Dany even want it? What are her plans to deal with it, and how are they different from Cersei's anyway?

I feel like Dany doesn't even really know. I don't think she has any real plans for once she's queen. I think she just wants to sit on the throne because that's where she thinks she's supposed to be, by birth. She's an exile and she's impatient to finally get where she thinks she belongs. But this seems like a mistake. This seems like Theon taking Winterfell all over again. He did that for basically the same reasons and in the same kind of under-prepared, over-entitled way that Dany is making a grab at the Iron Throne now.

I don't think that Dany's going to come to ruin the way that Theon did, because she has better advisors and WAY better luck and more of a sense of identity to guide her. But I don't think her odds of truly succeeding are much better than his were, either. I think that in some ways, it's inevitable that if she becomes Queen of the Seven Kingdoms, that's going to ring as hollow for her as becoming Prince of Winterfell did for him. I mean, you can sit in the special chair and call yourself lots of special names, but that's not going to mean you belong there or even that you're going to be able to stay.

I think that's more or less what Jaime and Euron's conversation in this episode was about, too. Like, it's all a big circus. You can't expect it to really mean anything.
posted by rue72 at 6:35 PM on July 31, 2017 [3 favorites]

"But it just seems like the kind of obvious arc that the writers like to mess with. If he's going to redeem himself, I think it will be in some less obvious way."

I think it seems that way because a) GRRM spawned a whole sub-genre of grimdark fantasy epics that break the Usual Rules, to the point where things that were truly subversive and startling when he did them 20 years ago now seem trite (because he writes slow, yo); and b) we've all been talking about it to death, so of course it seems obvious.

I do think the temptation is there for GRRM and the show writers to throw out their carefully-constructed surprises and reversals in favor of things that are just bat-shit crazy that nobody could predict because they're not rootecd in the text solely because people expect shocking surprises from them. But I think they also all know they've got to fire Chekov's gun at some point, even if they love messing with expectations.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 6:51 PM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

Jon says, "My own father fought to overthrow the mad king," which is probably still true even though he's not Ned's son. (He was also all "I'm not a Stark" so this ep was full of Jon saying things that are true but not for the reasons he thinks.)

Not just Jon, but Dany, who said that there will be a Targaryen on the Iron Throne and a Stark at Winterfell.

I think she's right, but she has the wrong Targaryen in mind. Her actions this episode scream "your tragic flaw is hubris." Plus we've seen Jon refuse the call to adventure/leadership twice now. I'm hoping he'll have learned from his mistakes. He was receiving good counsel from Tyrion. If I was your hand . . .

Jon on the throne, Sansa in the North, they get together every 3 years or so and pop out another baby.

Or ... Jon on the throne, Sansa as his consort and queen, Arya Warden of the North.
posted by tilde at 7:00 PM on July 31, 2017

The sand snake that was poisoned, she's the one that gave Bronn the antidote when he was poisoned and in prison. Bronn happens to be in King's Landing...
posted by adept256 at 7:11 PM on July 31, 2017 [13 favorites]

Right, the Queen of Thorns is toast but I'm not completely sure the Sand Snake won't eventually make it. The potion being quite slow acting was a major plot point after all.
posted by Justinian at 7:22 PM on July 31, 2017

I'm ok with Jon being awkward when first meeting Kelly C - sure, he was raised in the Stark court (which isn't polished and two faced and beholden to high handed airs), there is a big power imbalance between the Targeryen court and him alone with only Davos, and he's a supplicant.

Jon's experience in command has always been about necessity and practicality, and I think that his ego/self-esteem is derived from such competency.

Good on him for forgiving her ancestors and not being beholden to his ancestors' oaths (hmm, unexpected irony?). He sticks to what he knows - pragmatism, honesty, and integrity.
posted by porpoise at 7:26 PM on July 31, 2017

Sure, it's like that Bond movie set up where the Villain turns on the death ray but doesn't stick around to see if it works. Of course Bond escapes.
posted by adept256 at 7:29 PM on July 31, 2017

One thing that I noticed during the show, and is completely beside the point, is that you can really tell that their extras for the exterior KL scenes were locals from their southern unit (wiki says probably Spain), while the interiors extras were much less uniformly dark-haired.
posted by DebetEsse at 7:33 PM on July 31, 2017

Yeah, but... at this point in the story, what narrative purpose would the Sand Snakes serve if they escaped? Their armies were defeated and their money confiscated, so they have no political power. So unless they manage to kill Cersei, or, I suppose someone she depends on, I just don't see them getting any more precious screen time.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 7:39 PM on July 31, 2017

So I guess all the money is going to some big set-piece in the second to last episode?
posted by codacorolla at 7:42 PM on July 31, 2017

Bronn happens to be in King's Landing...

Depends on the timing. We see Bronn riding alongside Jaime when they get to Highgarden.

RE: set-piece battles? Isn't one episode this season supposed to have a runtime of less than 40 minutes? I'd wager maybe that's the nonstop battle episode that they're saving all their resources for...
posted by TwoStride at 8:03 PM on July 31, 2017

I searched for 'greyscale' but I don't think anyone has mentioned this - BUT THAT WAS HIGHGRADE BS

<ahem>

How does the maester conclude that Jorah was no longer infectious? This is absurd.

otoh, he didn't sterilize (or even clean) his telescoping prode - if he's wrong, he might infect the next person (and possibly the next, and) that he prods with at. Hope he gets it if he's wrong.

Jorah: must have been the rest that did it...
Sam: <go on...> /eyebrow
J: ...and the climate
posted by porpoise at 8:13 PM on July 31, 2017 [4 favorites]

For the record, Jon Snow is what I think is called a "revenant" not a zombie. Like Brandon Lee in The Crow. Back from the dead but with his original mind and some kind of supernatural destiny to complete. Totally different magical thing.
posted by traveler_ at 9:30 PM on July 31, 2017 [12 favorites]

So travler_, if Jon nicks himself with a bit of dragonglass... poof?

I do really agree with the archetype of those who the Red God (?) raises are like revenants; they've seemed moreso themselves (or only embody the strongest of whom they where and forget the rest), but losing more of whom they really are every time that they're resurrected; leaving only the husk of the strongest trait that they used to embody - a perversion of the original person.
posted by porpoise at 9:57 PM on July 31, 2017

I basically don't give even give a S I N G L E solitary fuck about the white walkers and winter and the wall.

They definitely lost some lustre once it turned out they were just another weapons project gone rogue. The whole ancient-mysterious-evil draw is gone now, so what remains is how they get beaten (or do they?). Interesting enough but not quite the same.
posted by vanar sena at 10:27 PM on July 31, 2017 [2 favorites]

I never found the white walkers very interesting because it always seemed to be leading to the dragons using fire on them. It's such an obvious, leaden premise that it's actually difficult to avoid now, because any plot point that "indisposes" the dragons from such a task looks contrived to avoid the obvious.
posted by fatbird at 10:39 PM on July 31, 2017 [1 favorite]

Ah, but: what happens when a dragon dies? Ice-breathing zombie dragon for the win!
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 12:15 AM on August 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

Why is Littlefinger pretending that he exists in quantum superposition?
posted by xyzzy at 1:25 AM on August 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

Random thoughts:

- I am having a love/hate relationship with the pacing. I love that Things are Finally Happening! But it's so much to take in and hard to savour and I am honestly so sad this is the penultimate season and shorter than usual.

- Why is Littlefinger still hanging around Sansa like a creepy fuckboy? Sansa, tell him back up off your grill and fuck off to his quarters.

- Am I the only one who feels sorry for the Tyrell dynasty? I feel sorry for them. They seemed clever but I guess just not clever (or ruthless) enough.

- I too am starting to get tired of how Euron's damn ships just show up everywhere. Also he's annoying as all heck. I know he's being referred to as Sea Ramsey but actually he's more like a fuckboy like Littlefinger and one Littlefinger is enough thank you very much.

- At first I was annoyed about Tyrion being set up as a bad strategist (his advice has led to all of Dany's allies being captured or killed), but upon reflection I've come to terms with it. Firstly, because I thought the Casterly Rock scene was brilliantly executed with the narration. I was put into a false sense of security with thoughts of "Oh dang Tyrion you are so clever!" but as soon as Grey Worm realised it was a ruse and we cut to Jamie I switched to "Oh Tyrion you idiot of course Casterly Rock is tactically worthless". Secondly, I've decided I'm fine with Cersei having a run of successes, it will only be that much more satisfying when it all falls apart around her.
posted by like_neon at 2:24 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

So, is Dany going to have to snark on someone's grammar for everyone to realise she's Stannis? Thinks the throne is hers by right, fails in her attempt to take it, goes North to redeem herself by saving Jon's ass from certain defeat.

History repeats itself so much on this show...
posted by Diablevert at 2:58 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Yeah, Sea Littlefinger doesn't roll off of the tongue but it seems more apt.
posted by tilde at 4:37 AM on August 1, 2017

Why is Littlefinger pretending that he exists in quantum superposition?

That's why he'll always love Cat, but also is sad she's dead.
posted by French Fry at 7:01 AM on August 1, 2017 [31 favorites]

If I got resolution on those questions, and we cut abruptly to a black screen that read

Then, the wall fell down, but Bran did some magic shit, so it was OK.

I would be right there with you if Jaime grows his beard back and gets with Brienne. And if I get a scene with Bronn, Jorah, Tormund, Varys, Dolorous Edd, and Davos drinking together and grousing about their bosses.
posted by culfinglin at 7:46 AM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

Bearded Jaime is best Jaime.
posted by It's Raining Florence Henderson at 10:37 AM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Mr. Bad Example: Valar popcornis

OK, I'm making shirts and stickers and stuff this week. #shiptruth and Valar popcornis. Proceeds to go to MetaFilter.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:34 AM on August 1, 2017 [7 favorites]

I will buy #shiptruth shirt.

I work in global logistics, I can wear that to work.
posted by French Fry at 11:48 AM on August 1, 2017 [8 favorites]

I definitely need some #shiptruth stickers and valar popcornis
posted by miss-lapin at 12:06 PM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Bearded Jaime is best Jaime.

I'm kind of liking going-grey-sideburns Jaime this season
posted by TwoStride at 1:34 PM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is certainly maturing well (if he was a woman, would people describe her as "handsome"?).
posted by porpoise at 5:11 PM on August 1, 2017 [2 favorites]

"Nikolaj Coster-Waldau is certainly maturing well"

This show is wildly fantastic eye-candy for heterosexual women who have outgrown youthful movie idol types (I mean, in my case, literally gotten too old to feel comfortable ogling 20-somethings). Sean Bean, Nikolaj Coster-Waldau, Peter Dinklage, Michiel Huisman, Iain Glen, Charles Dance ... just a lot of good-looking, slightly weather-beaten dudes with a little gravitas to them.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 7:10 PM on August 1, 2017 [27 favorites]

Kit Harrington is 30! We can add him to the list.
posted by something something at 7:26 PM on August 1, 2017

You forgot Roger Ashton-Griffiths.

CLEGANEBOWL GET HYPE
posted by Rat Spatula at 7:29 PM on August 1, 2017 [1 favorite]

But you did leave out Rory McCann and Clive Russell.
posted by Rat Spatula at 7:32 PM on August 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

Also have to add Liam Cunningham to the list, because Ser Motherfucking Davos.
posted by culfinglin at 8:09 PM on August 1, 2017 [12 favorites]

It was just a list off the top of my head, I LOVE ALL THE MENFOLK!
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 8:18 PM on August 1, 2017 [4 favorites]

So what's Baelish up to? Does he think the White Walkers are real?

Wondering because there's been a lot of talk of ashes lately i.e. Daenerys saying she doesn't want to rule over a pile of ashes. Yet Varys commented that Baelish would quite willing to rule over ashes if it meant he could be King (back in season 2 or 3).

Sure Cersei and Euron are the most obvious villains, but don't forget Baelish. Because despite his decent advice to Sansa about being prepared for anything, you gotta ask if Baelish is prepared for an army of the dead.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:15 AM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

I don't think ANYONE really believes or fully understands what Jon's saying. Only those at the battle, which few survived truly get it. This is of course compounded by Jon being a plank of wood with the diplomatic skills of a slightly less polished plank of wood. And as Tyrion says in the show, minds are not built to handle ideas as big as an ice zombie apocalypse.

I actually have grown to like that about Jon. In a show about who is and is not their parent's child. Jon being seeming the opposite of his (secret) birth father is a nice contrast. He's not a poet, he's not this great showman, a singer, a scholar, a diplomat, a warrior bard of incredible charisma, the great gleaming handsome prince.

While he's not Ned stark's bastard, he sure as fuck is Ned stark's son.
posted by French Fry at 7:28 AM on August 2, 2017 [8 favorites]

I don't think ANYONE really believes or fully understands what Jon's saying.

He isn't really saying all that much - at least, he didn't to Dany. If he had sat down and explained exactly what they look like and how they're super fast and really hard to take down even if you catch them, and how they reproduce by reanimating everyone they kill and adding those people to their army and they have creepy glowing blue eyes and sometimes they're skeletons... That would be pretty effective. Instead it's "hey there's an army of the dead and a Night King." It was a bit like Sansa with Bran - fine, but I don't know what that means. Someone without the experience of standing there looking at The Night King is not going to feel motivated to rework their entire life plan because a stranger shows up and tells them a guy called The Night King exists without providing any additional terrifying detail to explain why that's so dangerous.

I was frustrated by that conversation.
posted by something something at 7:44 AM on August 2, 2017 [7 favorites]

Right, no one really gets it at this point. Most understand that *something* is coming, but yeah, an army of the Dead that can constantly grow from the newly dead isn't an easy thing to grasp. The only one we know that really gets it is Tormound and he was very johnny on the spot when Jon asked him to lead the Wildings to shore up some castles on the wall. Literally, Tormound was like "Yep, got it, gonna go do it," no question.

At some point I think Jon will have bring back some Wights to convince Daenerys. But there doesn't seem time for that, plot wise. I'm guessing Danerys will take a dragon flight North to see for herself, maybe bring Jon along.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:47 AM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

He isn't really saying all that much - at least, he didn't to Dany. If he had sat down and explained exactly what they look like and how they're super fast and really hard to take down even if you catch them, and how they reproduce by reanimating everyone they kill and adding those people to their army and they have creepy glowing blue eyes and sometimes they're skeletons... That would be pretty effective. Instead it's "hey there's an army of the dead and a Night King." It was a bit like Sansa with Bran - fine, but I don't know what that means. Someone without the experience of standing there looking at The Night King is not going to feel motivated to rework their entire life plan because a stranger shows up and tells them a guy called The Night King exists without providing any additional terrifying detail to explain why that's so dangerous.

I agree. I know that Jon isn't supposed to be super aware, but he is a good strategist who has effectively communicated the threat of the dead before. Having him botch that so horribly isn't consistent with the variety of dim that his character is. Really, the degree to which people suddenly become super powered, or super incompetent simply to check the next box of a plot point is one of my biggest complaints with the show over the last 2 years.
posted by codacorolla at 8:05 AM on August 2, 2017 [6 favorites]

Really, the degree to which people suddenly become super powered, or super incompetent simply to check the next box of a plot point is one of my biggest complaints with the show over the last 2 years.

I'd say the primary exception to this is Cersei, who's smart+crazy equation always makes sense to me. Partly because of Lena Headly's tremendous acting smoothing over the rough bits in the writing. Much in the same way Charles Dance was able to make Tywin always seem right, even if the script was letting him down a bit.
posted by French Fry at 8:10 AM on August 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

Yep - Cersei's story over the past 2 years has been a bright spot for me. She's a character who makes sense, acts consistently, and has an interesting arc towards downfall, helped significantly by Lena Headly nailing the performance.
posted by codacorolla at 8:13 AM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Much in the same way Charles Dance was able to make Tywin always seem right, even if the script was letting him down a bit.

I think this might be one of the biggest problems the show has now. They used to have a ton of excellent actors around in roles that inescapable plot constraints forced them to kill off, and a lot of the actors who are left can still be quite good with good material, but can't carry the less good writing like Dance, Stephen Dillane, or the guy who played Roose Bolton did. It's probably not going to matter because they're shedding plots fast and non-Lannister/Stark/Targaryen characters weren't going to get screen time anyway, but losing Diana Rigg and Natalie Dormer is another blow on that front.
posted by Copronymus at 8:32 AM on August 2, 2017 [10 favorites]

I think Jon being naive on how to explain things to Tyrion or Daenerys makes sense. He's a Northerner, dealing with Southerners. The North is at least familiar with dire wolves and bits of magic that have some basis in reality, while the South is largely ignorant of that. Yes, Daenerys has dragons, but there's just three of them and that's vastly different from an army of the dead that grows from the dead it slaughters.

But overall, I'd agree that the show (as many do) takes pains to make its characters idiotic at times. Jon, or preferably Davos (who has a way with words at least), should have explained what they've been through, what they've seen, from start to finish. That Daenerys or even Tyrion haven't asked for proof or at least an explanation is beyond bizarre, character and narrative wise. If someone told you an army of the dead was on the way, wouldn't you start asking questions like "How do you know this? What did you see? Where did this occur? Did anyone else alive see this?"

But I suppose it works in the sense that the general audience the show is geared towards knows the truth and doesn't need or want what they've seen explained or shown to them again. That's the only reasonable explanation I can come up with.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 8:36 AM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

the general audience the show is geared towards knows the truth and doesn't need or want what they've seen explained or shown to them again.

Yeah, I think this is exactly it. I don't see how in "real life" Jon would be able to convince Dany that her top priority should be the zombie army, short of a dragon flight over there. Even if they weren't limited in the amount of time/shows left, spending a lot of time on this doesn't seem like great TV. Of course no one believes in the threat like Jon does, that's kind of the whole point of such a threat.
posted by skewed at 9:18 AM on August 2, 2017

I think this might be one of the biggest problems the show has now. They used to have a ton of excellent actors around in roles that inescapable plot constraints forced them to kill off, and a lot of the actors who are left can still be quite good with good material, but can't carry the less good writing like Dance, Stephen Dillane, or the guy who played Roose Bolton did.

Agreed. When you have actors like Cíaran Hinds and Ian McShane coming in to play small roles, who each arguably carried major productions, it raises the bar for acting substantially.
posted by culfinglin at 9:28 AM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

At some point I think Jon will have bring back some Wights to convince Daenerys.

Jon himself is a wight. He just needs to show his stabbed chest to her. But no......time to go full mopey emo...
posted by srboisvert at 10:14 AM on August 2, 2017

Oh, just realized that jon's stabbed chest scars are going to be the reveal to Dany when she and Jon start getting it on, otherwise they wouldn't have underlined dany's curiosity about jon's statements about getting stabbed. She will get the story of his betrayal and she will be like "how did you survive?" And Jon will be all broody and say how it's difficult to say and Dany will be all "your queen demands an answer" and the audience will be all "this scene might have been better if it had, say, Natalie dorner and Pedro pascal instead."
posted by skewed at 10:26 AM on August 2, 2017 [21 favorites]

Oh, just realized that jon's stabbed chest scars are going to be the reveal to Dany when she and Jon start getting it on, otherwise they wouldn't have underlined dany's curiosity about jon's statements about getting stabbed.

Which will be super awkward given the Tower of Joy reveal last season means he's probably her nephew.
posted by Happy Dave at 10:29 AM on August 2, 2017

Isn't that supposed to be par for the course for the Targaryen's though?
posted by LizBoBiz at 10:55 AM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Yeah, that's totally targaryan but I doubt Jon will get the news from Bran anytime soon.
posted by skewed at 11:15 AM on August 2, 2017

Targaryen's gonna Targ. I just hope the kids get Dany's brains.
posted by Justinian at 11:26 AM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Isn't that supposed to be par for the course for the Targaryen's though?

Yeah, they liked marrying siblings to each other, so an unwitting aunt/nephew hookup seems reasonably tame.

I think the normalization of incest is also why the parentage of Cersei's children isn't some big state secret anymore, either. I think, from the first, the problem wasn't so much that they were her brother's kids as it was that they weren't the king's legitimate heirs. But now that that's irrelevant anyway, and the Iron Throne is openly in Lannister hands, nobody cares about their (il)legitimacy and Olenna can just sit there mocking Jaime about it for shits and giggles.

Haha speaking of: thank goodness nobody forced Tyrion and Cersei to marry each other. Can you imagine!

Oh, just realized that jon's stabbed chest scars are going to be the reveal to Dany when she and Jon start getting it on, otherwise they wouldn't have underlined dany's curiosity about jon's statements about getting stabbed. She will get the story of his betrayal and she will be like "how did you survive?" And Jon will be all broody and say how it's difficult to say and Dany will be all "your queen demands an answer" and the audience will be all "this scene might have been better if it had, say, Natalie dorner and Pedro pascal instead."

I hope that the show doesn't make Dany finding out about the White Walkers into a long, drawn-out ordeal. We already know they're real, we already know plenty about them. Please just cut to her knowing as much as we do and move along already.

I also just don't understand Dany's refusal to ally with Jon. When he came to her saying, "I have this probably imaginary problem that I really need help with!" she should have been all over that. Solving a discrete problem for someone is a great basis for an alliance, right? And the sillier the problem, the easier it is for her to tackle -- so it's really fine if the problem is just all in his head. Like imagine if the White Walkers didn't exist, and Jon was actually just delusional. That's actually fine! If they're imaginary, they're SUPER easy to vanquish. And then you've appeased Jon and made an ally of the (albeit mad, in this scenario) King of the North.

This is why I like Sansa as a ruler. She's practical, and she knows how to deal with crazy people. To me, that makes her loads better than these two.
posted by rue72 at 11:27 AM on August 2, 2017 [4 favorites]

Sansa's smart and diplomatic, but her command presence is still not quite on display, at least not with anyone besides Littlefinger. I think the walk-and-talk scene was the first piece of evidence for it so far. OTOH with the pace of the show right now, she'll probably have levelled up to Lyanna Mormont by the next episode.
posted by vanar sena at 12:04 PM on August 2, 2017

Yeah, it's fine that Sansa can walk and talk with her advisers. When other Lords and Ladies challenge her in open court, how she handles that will be very interesting.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 12:30 PM on August 2, 2017

Yeah, that's totally targaryan but I doubt Jon will get the news from Bran anytime soon.

I've been wondering if he'll get the news from Sam. Even before this week I wondered if Sam would find some kind of record of the birth in the library at The Citadel, and then in this episode they made quite a big deal of him carrying around books about the recent histories of the major houses and having to recopy old scrolls.

There will have to be some kind of backup information to support Bran's visions. We already know he's not great at explaining what the hell it means that he's The Three Eyed Raven.
posted by something something at 12:45 PM on August 2, 2017

The disconnect between people of the North and all others boils down to the fact that white walkers, the night king et al were part of the childhood boogeyman stories that they were told every night at bedtime. Tyrion, a scholar, would know this, but virtually no one else south of Riverrun would.
But kind of like many arguments on MeFi, regional idiosyncrasies tend to be thought of as universal truths until someone actually says "wtf are you on about?"
Dany is perhaps the first person that Jon has spoken to (other than Stannis' retinue) who hasn't a clue what a white walker is, or what it means that the night king exists, but maybe he's too dumb to know this, or maybe we are supposed to assume that Tyrion has filled her in.
this may be one case where a little mansplaining might have helped.
posted by OHenryPacey at 1:04 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Sure, it's like that Bond movie set up where the Villain turns on the death ray but doesn't stick around to see if it works. Of course Bond escapes.

Indira Varma (Ma Sandsnake) has confirmed that "The Queen's Justice" is her final appearance on the show. It could be a bluff like Jon Snow being dead for a bit, but the Sand Snakes were always kind of clumsily handled and don't have the audience investment that Dakingindanorf does.

And it does reaffirm Cersei's willingness to give her rivals deaths of weird inventiveness. This is much more... Lecteresque? Jigsawlike? than blowing up the Sept of Baelor was.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 1:09 PM on August 2, 2017

Is there a big taboo against requesting stuff in exchange for knee-bending?

Jon: "Forget it. You can't tempt me."
Daenerys: "Really? There's nothing you want?"
Jon: "Hmm. I forgot you could tempt me with things I want."
posted by RobotHero at 1:11 PM on August 2, 2017 [13 favorites]

Also, is it just me or is it odd and interesting that the North is and has been comfortable having the Starks as their royal family? Sure, other kingdoms have their royals, but the North actually seems to like the Starks and trust them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 1:37 PM on August 2, 2017

Just the fact that Sansa was able to keep her dignity and self-possession intact while in extremely dire straits at Winterhell with Ramsey, and then was able to inspire Theon of all people to bravery and loyalty on her behalf, makes me think that Sansa has what it takes to be queen. Being able to keep a cool head while in enormous, ongoing danger and being able to inspire bravery and loyalty in even the least of her people is pretty remarkable, I think. I'm not really worried about her being able to hold her own in court compared to that.

She also apparently has raw political talent, seeing as she managed to survive Joffrey and Cersei's court and then Littlefinger's treachery relatively unscathed (and still with a good reputation besides). On top of that, she managed to keep both Tyrion and Littlefinger as allies/potential allies, despite them twisting their allegiances every which way otherwise.

She was able to see the big picture and think strategically both in the Battle of the Bastards and in preparing for Winter now. Jon would be dead again already if it weren't for her.

Some of it is just luck and circumstance, but not all of it. I think she's very astute.

And, I mean, if there's always got to be a Stark in Winterfell, then she's got to be there, because she's the last Stark. Bran is the One Eyed Raven now, and Arya has no name. Jon's still a bastard. The others are dead. There's just her.
posted by rue72 at 2:11 PM on August 2, 2017 [8 favorites]

ricochet biscuit: Indira Varma (Ma Sandsnake) has confirmed that "The Queen's Justice" is her final appearance on the show.

Compare and contrast: significant character, last seen watching her daughter (likely/possibly) start to die from a poisoned kiss says "that's my final appearance" / vs / significant character last seen in a house that is on fire, and show runner says even if that character is dead, that doesn't mean this is the last we've seen of him, in part due to flashbacks (Better Call Saul s03 e10 podcast recap).

Difference: GoT has a giant, sprawling cast, even if the core cast seems relatively manageable, while BCS has a smaller cast, but highly skilled writers and producers who have fun making a really, really smart show and enjoy non-linear moments in the story.
posted by filthy light thief at 2:11 PM on August 2, 2017

Yeah, that's totally targaryan but I doubt Jon will get the news from Bran anytime soon.

I'm assuming that Dany and Jon will hook up towards the end of the season, and then not long after, pervy robot Bran will be like, "So Jon, just thought you should know that my father is your uncle, your mother is my aunt, and you just had sex with YOUR aunt. (Btw I was watching you guys the whole time. It was hot.)" And Jon will just be like "!!!!????" and then Meera will have to translate.

But more to the point, I'm sure it wouldn't bother Dany because Targs gonna Targ, but I imagine John will at least be somewhat uncomfortable with the idea. Although I assume Jon's discomfort with the whole incest thing may not be as big a plot point as the fact that Bran's reveal of Jon's actual lineage will mean that Jon has the best claim to the Iron Throne.* That might cause some tension between him and Dany, presumably more on her side than his.

*Yeah, I know, there's still the whole, "but were Lyanna and Rhaegar married?" thing, but I'm assuming we'll either find some proof that they were in fact married (via weirwood.net or something else), or the show will just hand wave it away. Either way, I'm guessing they haven't built up this whole R+L=J thing only to be like, "It doesn't really matter because Jon is still a bastard!"
posted by litera scripta manet at 5:07 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

Guys just coming here to say that Euron is actually Sea Lemmy

P.S. Here's my comeback theory:

At this point, Dany has Dothraki and the Unsullied who can march overland from Casterly Rock and wherever she launches them from Dragonstone heading towards King's Landing.

Jon, if he so chose, could order Wildling armies to also march South to King's Landing.

If asked, I'm sure Sansa could send off Baelish to rally the Eyrie's troops to ride South to King's Landing as well.

Dornish army could conceivably sail or ride north for Battle Royale-style siege meeting at KL as well.

Mama Dragonfarts could also fly over to lead the siege. She can simply burn any ships she passes, because Euron burned all/most of hers to ashes, right? I'm probably mis-remembering that bit.

Unfortunately, Chekhov's Ballista says that 1 in 3 dragons is catastrophically injured in battle, leaving Two Known Targs to each ride one of the remaining dragons... right? I dunno, I hope I'm wrong, but the future plot direction seems fairly obvious to me. As always, I would seriously love to be wrong and the showrunners pull a surprise twist that doesn't the frustrate the hell out of viewers and/or book readers.

I also foresee Theon's redemption happening during the siege, although I know most people here think Dark Reek Rising = Zero Redemption.
posted by Unicorn on the cob at 6:17 PM on August 2, 2017

So I just rewatched the episode, and one thing that stuck out to me the second time around is the soundtrack choices. Specifically, the use of the Light of the Seven theme (originally from the season 6 finale) in the Cersei poisoning Tyene Sand scene, and then a bit later in the episode, when we cut from Casterley Rock to Jaime leading the Lannister forces to Highgarden, the main theme is (unsurprisingly), the Rains of Castamere, but it also sounds like they overlay the Light of the Seven theme over Rains of Castamere.

I mean, the use of Light of the Seven makes sense, since it's basically the "Cersei's Revenge" soundtrack. Also, the Light of the Seven theme is just a really awesome bit of composition. It's so haunting.

Another thing I forgot to comment on earlier: I really love the title of this episode, "The Queen's Justice." There's the reference to Cersei's revenge on Ellaria Sand and also on Olenna Tyrell, but since Olenna Tyrell is the Queen of Thorns, it also can be a reference to Olenna's final bit of justice: in her final moments, revealing that she was the one who killed Joffrey. I just love her final line in that scene, "I want her to know it was me." It's so chilling and perfect, and it's a great way to close out the episode.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:34 PM on August 2, 2017 [1 favorite]

And, I mean, if there's always got to be a Stark in Winterfell, then she's got to be there, because she's the last Stark. Bran is the One Eyed Raven now, and Arya has no name. Jon's still a bastard.

There are a lot of theories about potential supernatural or magical reasons for this. There's the possibility that there's some sort of enchantment that Brandon the Builder used when he built Winterfell much like the one he used on the wall that keeps the dead away. Some others are discussed here.

So assuming this saying does have actual truth to it, not just tradition, I don't think Bran being the Three Eyed Raven necessarily cancels out his inherit Stark-ness. Similarly, even being a bastard, Jon is still just as much a Stark as all the others by blood. (The other Stark children being half Stark/half Tully by blood.) " Of course, if there is an enchantment, it's possible it only responds to official names and titles, but that seems unlikely. After all, Gendry was a bastard, but apparently his king's blood still counted for Melisandre's magic. And either way, Arya's parting words to Jaqen H'ghar was were "I'm Arya Stark of Winterfell and I'm going home," so she still does have her Stark name and heritage, since she rejected being no one.

I still agree with your broader points, and Sansa does have the best claim to being Lady of Winterfell since Bran gave up his title and she's older than Arya, but I don't think Sansa is the only remaining Stark.
posted by litera scripta manet at 8:00 PM on August 2, 2017 [2 favorites]

Just the fact that Sansa was able to keep her dignity and self-possession intact while in extremely dire straits at Winterhell with Ramsey, and then was able to inspire Theon of all people to bravery and loyalty on her behalf, makes me think that Sansa has what it takes to be queen

Sansa is clearly smarter than she's been letting on (aka saving Baelish at the Vale), but she still does stupid stuff at times, which makes accessing her difficult. I don't think there was a special Sansa quality that caused Theon to save here, merely a familiar face constantly being treated badly. Had Ramsey been there when he finally rebelled, I doubt anything would have happened (understandably so).

I think the character tends to be badly written, but have enjoyed her progress. She, and not Daenerys, may the "younger, more beautiful one" mentioned in Cersei's prophecy. It would make sense, as Sansa spent a lot of time around Cersei and could anticipate what she's going to do. Yassss, having Sansa figure out the proper way to take down Cersei would be particularly great.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:26 AM on August 3, 2017 [2 favorites]

I also foresee Theon's redemption happening during the siege, although I know most people here think Dark Reek Rising = Zero Redemption.

That Theon had screen time this episode probably means he's gonna try to do something about Yara. Especially considering her lines about being being "her protector". He's done some terribly awful shit, helping and saving Yara is his best bet at attaining any sort of redemption, at least in his own eyes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 6:32 AM on August 3, 2017 [2 favorites]

In response to some comments in this thread, I started a FaFaTa about whether the site's spoiler policy/etiquette extends to shows other than the one being discussed.
posted by mama casserole at 6:55 AM on August 3, 2017

He's done some terribly awful shit, helping and saving Yara is his best bet at attaining any sort of redemption, at least in his own eyes.

Yeah, my bet is he'll be the one to kill Euron. He'll get his own Sansa feeding Ramsey to the dogs moment, then- I bet- die.
posted by The Man from Lardfork at 8:46 AM on August 3, 2017

I don't think there was a special Sansa quality that caused Theon to save here, merely a familiar face constantly being treated badly.

Theon saw a whole lot of familiar faces being treated badly (including his own). But he overcame his fear in order to protect Sansa in particular.

I think that key to why he was able to stay brave and loyal and protect Sansa are:

1. She believed that he not only had a duty to help her, she believed he COULD help her. Even when she hated him and even when he was wretched, she asked for and clearly needed his protection. She believed that he was able to help her, and that made him believe that maybe he was able to help her -- and so he WAS able to help her. To me, that shows a huge amount of leadership ability on her part.

It's also one thing to inspire people from a position of power -- but Sansa managed to inspire from a position of abject powerlessness. I think there are a lot of parallels between Sansa and Dany there, but I think that the major differences between the women are that Sansa draws on her family identity/history/pride as a way of maintaining her belief in her own righteousness as a person, whereas Dany draws on her family identity/history/pride in terms maintaining her belief in her own righteousness as a ruler.

(Also, I think maybe this discussion should go to the Books Included thread eventually? Because there are some parallels between Show!Sansa/Theon and Book!Penny/Tyrion that I think could be interesting to add in, and also, Show!Sansa and Show!Theon are not identical to their book counterparts anyway).

2. She's a Stark. Theon feels fealty to the Starks, but even beyond that, I think that he sees them as role models and hopes that his relationship with them can itself be redemptive. I think that's actually true of a lot of the Stark's bannermen. I think consciously maintaining that kind of benevolent, "paternal" relationship with the Stark's vassals is also why Ned insisted on doing things like presiding over "trials" and executions himself and taught his children to do the same.

I think that something that also gets lost is that even in such a hierarchical world as GoT's, not everyone even wants to be a leader -- some characters are looking for guidance or would rather support the leader than lead themselves. Brienne, Jaime, and Theon are some key characters like that, I think. Brienne WANTS to swear fealty to someone trustworthy and good. Jaime WANTS to work in service of someone else's glory rather than gloat in his own. Theon WANTS to be shown how to be a respectable man and feels a deep need to prove himself.

So something that makes Sansa stand out to me as a leader is also that she seems to genuinely WANT to be one. And she's not thinking in terms of just becoming a conqueror, like Dany is, but a ruler over the long-term, and with a long-term, mutually respectful relationship with her people.

The only other (major) characters who I think have wanted to be a ruler like Sansa does are Ned and Robb, and possibly Yara.

That Theon had screen time this episode probably means he's gonna try to do something about Yara. Especially considering her lines about being being "her protector". He's done some terribly awful shit, helping and saving Yara is his best bet at attaining any sort of redemption, at least in his own eyes.

I think that Theon got as close to redemption for betraying Robb as he's ever going to get when he helped Sansa escape. And I think he got as close to redemption for taking Winterfell as he's ever going to get when he declared himself unfit for the Salt Throne and backed Yara's claim instead. Both of those acts are arguably "a day late and a dollar short." But I think that's the best he can do.

I don't think that Theon is hoping for redemption for himself, which is probably part of his problem. He loses faith at the drop of a hat, and it has done him no favors. He tends to adopt this "learned helplessness" kind of approach, where if he's faced with even a very small setback, he loses most/all faith in his own ability to cope with it. That's not just how he's been since Ramsey -- apparently he was even like that as a child, given that he never even attempted to run away (like Bran and Rickon did, which seemed to shock him). I mean, even how he reacted when faced with Bran's tiny amount of opposition while in the midst of yielding Winterfell was an example of that attitude. If he had handled even that with more grace and more faith in his ability to deal, things wouldn't have spiraled out of control nearly as horribly as they did. I actually feel for Theon, because I think he has always teetered horribly between insecurity and arrogance, and he's always come off to me as very brittle (similar to Cersei, to be honest!). He's not especially likeable, but I find him (and even Cersei, to an extent) oddly relateable.

Anyway, I do think he owes it to Yara to try and rescue her, though. He owes it as her brother, and he also owes it to her because he swore loyalty to her when he first returned to the Iron Islands after escaping Winterfell. I also think it would be especially awful for him of all people to just abandon someone to being held captive, and especially since it was Euron the Hateful Lunatic who took her. He knows how badly that can go.

Personally, I think that Yara's line about him being "her advisor, her protector" rang hollow and was meant to ring hollow. All three in the room knew it wasn't true. Ellaria even called her on it (I think genuinely not understanding and maybe misreading what was going on between Yara and Theon otherwise, though. The way she kept trying to pressure him into joining her and Yara was strange).

And I kind of wonder whether Theon wasn't really more or less Reek this whole time, playacting as Theon anyway. I've wondered that ever since Yara told him he needed to either slit his wrists and end it or pull it together for her and be her "real" brother. That reminded me of when Ramsey told Reek that on pain of death, he had to playact as Theon Greyjoy in order to lure some Ironborn out of their stronghold (Moat Cailin?). The way that Theon seemed to just completely break down once Euron called him out reminded me of how Reek started breaking down and babbling when the head of those sickly Ironborn at Moat Cailin (?) unwittingly called his bluff, too. I mean, I guess it doesn't matter. In the end, Reek and Theon are the same person, or Reek is only a part of Theon anyway. But it does make me very curious about his state of mind.

I actually expect (hope, to be honest!) that Theon keeps surviving. At this point, he's already the story's resident Wondering Jew, so it would make even sense if he stays both alive and doomed forever!
posted by rue72 at 8:50 AM on August 3, 2017 [7 favorites]

I don't have super strong feelings about whether or not I want Theon to live or die if I had a choice, but I suspect that the show is only going to let Theon or Yara live, but not both. And if that's the case, I'd much rather see Theon give his life to save Yara, and then Yara can feed Euron to the ~~Ramsay's dogs~~ Dany's dragons. Although I'd also be fine with both Theon and Yara surviving, and getting to feed Euron to the dragons together.

Of course, given this show's track record, what will probably happen is that Theon tries to save Yara, fails, then watches Euron kill Yara, and then Euron will spend the remainder of this season and the next one torturing Theon.

Oh, or how about this? Theon meets up with Arya (somehow), explains the situation, and then Arya is like, I have an idea. So Theon lets Arya kill him, Arya takes his face, then she goes down to King Landing to try to trade herself for Yara (or some other pretext), gets captured on purpose, kills Euron, takes his face, strangles Cersei while wearing Euron's face, and then...well, maybe she can pretend to be Cersei until Dany's forces or Jon or Sansa or whoever is able to show up to King's Landing, and Cersei/Arya can be like, "Here, King's Landing is yours." Maybe Arya could even explain her plan to Yara as she frees her, so Yara can tell Dany what the plan is.

And if D&D really wanted to mess with us, they could skip showing us Arya taking Theon's face and Euron's and Cersei's, and not reveal that it was Arya the whole time until the very end.

Okay, maybe a little farfetched, but I kind of like it.
posted by litera scripta manet at 11:45 AM on August 3, 2017 [2 favorites]

It's also one thing to inspire people from a position of power -- but Sansa managed to inspire from a position of abject powerlessness.

Meh. Theon betrayed her once at Winterhell by tell Ramsay about lighting the candle in the particular tower. When he finally stand up for her, it was only against someone who was not Reek and because Sansa was/is oddly uninterested in even learning to wield a knife or any sort of weapon, even in terms of defending herself. I realize we may disagree on that take and am content to agree to disagree.

Like I said, I do like the character and have found her journey interesting, if maddening at times. At least learn to use a knife Sansa, lol! But yes, that's not her way, at this point.

Theon continues to fascinate me, as his crimes are huge (as are Jamie and Sandor), but there's a kernel of something, some good potential and I'm curious to see how it turns out for all of them.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 11:48 AM on August 3, 2017

Jon, if he so chose, could order Wildling armies to also march South to King's Landing.

I mean, he could, I'm not sure they'd obey such an order unless he backed it up with a very compelling story about how it was needed to ultimately defeat the white walkers. The Free Folk are doing what he asks because they have a common enemy and they understand the seriousness of the situation. They've seen the walkers, and the army of the dead. Fighting the Boltons was justified against that. Jon himself isn't convinced he needs to defeat Cersi before handling the White Walkers.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 12:35 PM on August 3, 2017

Jon, if he so chose, could order Wildling armies to also march South to King's Landing.

I think sending the Wilding army to march on King's Landing wouldn't go so well, for a lot of reasons, even if they were willing to do it. But if Jon did want to march on King's Landing, especially if Sansa were on board with this plan, perhaps the Vale army would be willing to be a part of that. After all, it seems pretty clear that the Lords of the Vale hate the Lannisters (after all, as far as they know, Cersei and Jaime killed John Arryn, who seemed to be universally well liked).

And I have no idea what is going on with Edmure and Riverrun, but with so many of the Freys getting killed off by Arya and the Lannister army busy fighting against Dany, I would imagine Edmure should be able to take back Riverrun, so perhaps they could help too. Again, Edmure certainly has every reason to want to destroy Cersei Lannister, as would the rest of Riverrun.

Of course, you'd first want to kill of Littlefinger before you had the Vale army march South, so that he didn't get any ideas.

The advantage of this would be that you wouldn't necessarily need to get all the Northern lords to march their armies South.

This is all very speculative, though, because it's hard to imagine Jon wanting to do anything in the South until the white walker threat has been neutralized. Although it is driving me crazy that we haven't heard anything about Edmure or Riverrun. You'd think while Arya had on Walder Frey's face she would have explored the Twins a bit, or at least heard someone mention something about Edmure. That would really suck for Edmure if it turns out his own niece could have rescued him but didn't because she didn't know he was there. (I know back in Season 6 Jaime talked about sending Edmure and his kid to Casterley Rock, but I seem to remember Walder Frey later making a comment about Edmure being back in his cell.)
posted by litera scripta manet at 3:39 PM on August 3, 2017 [1 favorite]

poffin boffin: i need a GoT font poster of WINTER IS COMING inside a snowglobe now, thanks

DIY: there are a plethora of "insert photo" snowglobes, but I particularly like Magical Memories (though that may be the optional customization, I'm unclear). And here's a GoT font.
posted by filthy light thief at 7:47 PM on August 3, 2017

some characters are looking for guidance or would rather support the leader than lead themselves

The Hound
posted by rocketman at 9:45 PM on August 3, 2017

Although it is driving me crazy that we haven't heard anything about Edmure or Riverrun. You'd think while Arya had on Walder Frey's face she would have explored the Twins a bit, or at least heard someone mention something about Edmure. That would really suck for Edmure if it turns out his own niece could have rescued him but didn't because she didn't know he was there. (I know back in Season 6 Jaime talked about sending Edmure and his kid to Casterley Rock, but I seem to remember Walder Frey later making a comment about Edmure being back in his cell.)

Edmure was back in his cell that night, but I've been assuming since then that he was sent to Casterly Rock sometime shortly thereafter. I think Jaime would have kept his part of the bargain, even though he to threaten him to get him to cooperate, but Edmure would have been sent somewhere else when the Lannisters left the Rock. I do hope we see him again, Tobias Menzies is a great actor and there's a power vacuum in the Riverlands that should be accounted for in the story. I hope the showrunners don't abandon that plot thread.

And speaking of lonely plot threads, I was glad to see the Iron Bank return to the story. I thought they'd abandoned it. OTOH I was annoyed that the Braavosi of all people are suddenly fine with slavery. Meh.
posted by homunculus at 2:22 PM on August 5, 2017 [3 favorites]

Beautiful Death: Tell Cersei...
posted by homunculus at 2:25 PM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]

I'm totally fine with Edmure's story being dropped or finished off a line or two of dialogue (Jamie: I put him a cottage on the countryside with the clear understanding that he's not to pick up a sword). There's just no time for such a minor point.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 2:26 PM on August 5, 2017

Yeah, you're right about the time, though I don't entirely agree about it being just a minor point. Part of what made the series so good was how complete the world felt, and dropping parts off the map would really take away from that. I don't want the Riverlands to disappear along with the Freys. But since they're doing shortened seasons there wouldn't be time to revisit Edmure's arc in a satisfying way anyway.
posted by homunculus at 4:47 PM on August 5, 2017 [1 favorite]

The Riverlands important at allnow. Before, that bridge was a strategic point, now it doesn't matter who holds it when the Night King comes.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 7:19 PM on August 5, 2017

Yes, this one, but I suspect it doesn't mean anything, it's just the creators trying to misdirection.

Because a connection between Cersei and the Night King makes no goddamn sense and hasn't been hinted at on the show at all.
posted by Brandon Blatcher at 3:28 AM on August 6, 2017 [1 favorite]

I don't particularly want an Edmure/Riverlands story line (at least not with this shortened season and accelerated timeline), but I'd like a short throwaway line at some point just explaining what happened to Edmure, especially since they bothered to bring back his storyline for a couple episodes last season. Also, although the Riverlands haven't been a main part of the story for awhile, back in the first three seasons they figured rather prominently.

And of course, with Cat, Hoster, and the Blackfish all dead, Edmure is our last Tully. It would be nice to know that at least one of them makes it through this ordeal alive.
posted by litera scripta manet at 7:47 AM on August 6, 2017 [1 favorite]

The Riverlands would be strategically important, because they're some of the best farmlands outside of Highgarden. If you're Daeny, and have to feed a battle herd of horses, as well as three dragons, then that would be important. However, I think that such a mundane detail is way beyond the consideration of the writers or the audience at this point, so yeah, the Riverlands are probably done for all intents and purposes.
posted by codacorolla at 3:56 PM on August 6, 2017 [1 favorite]

So, IMDB tells me that random Ironborn captain that fished Theon out of the bay was Australian actor (and my erstwhile back neighbour) Brendon Cowell. Brendon, if you are reading this, we would like our fucking wheelie bin back please.
posted by arha at 4:57 AM on August 7, 2017 [12 favorites]

What's the iron price for a wheelie bin?
posted by Happy Dave at 11:13 PM on August 7, 2017 [5 favorites]

Jon and Dany being Grade-A terrible at diplomacy in this episode was really annoying to me. Such that when we cut to Sansa and Littlefinger I felt a palpable sense of relief — finally, more the intelligence, guile, and intensity that this show's success used to rest on.

I think in general the show is having a problem with certain characters' growth. While you can see their growth in the plot — what they do and what happens to them — it's not written into their lines. Dany, Jon, Sam, and Bran come to mind. A state of arrested development.
posted by wemayfreeze at 9:40 AM on August 9, 2017 [1 favorite]

Fucking monologuing....
posted by bq at 8:11 AM on August 13, 2017

Arya and Brienne spar, but with lightsabers.
posted by Eyebrows McGee at 5:43 PM on August 13, 2017

I think that's next week
posted by bq at 7:02 PM on August 13, 2017 [2 favorites]

People keep mentioning this so I may have missed it in the episode but Sansa is the one who put Ramsey Bolton in the dog kennel? Like tied him to the chair and everything? How did she unlock the dog cages without getting attacked herself? Yeah, she watched him die, just desserts and all. There probably would've more spectators but they were off getting their wounds attended to, after fighting for their lives in a mass slaughter.

Dibs on Arya killing Cersei, improbably with Jaime's face? because she's on the list.
posted by TWinbrook8 at 1:53 PM on October 15, 2018 [1 favorite]

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Game of Thrones: The Queen's Justice Show Only
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