Game of Thrones: The Dragon and the Wolf Books Included
August 28, 2017 12:19 AM - Season 7, Episode 7 - Subscribe
In the south, the Dragonpit summit brings factions and family members together to stare down the black throat of death. In the north, Sansa and Littlefinger contemplate worst-case-scenarios, while further north, Beric and Tormund find themselves in one. Season Finale.
So ... doesn't that mean if they take out the main undead the peons all fall?
Pretty much. Beric pointed that out to Jon when they were trapped on the island last week.
posted by LionIndex at 2:25 AM on August 28, 2017
Pretty much. Beric pointed that out to Jon when they were trapped on the island last week.
posted by LionIndex at 2:25 AM on August 28, 2017
Then they got damn lucky they had a zombie from a different walker in that group. /last week derail
Lot of giants, and no bones about there being maybe more than one. Not sure what would have caused those holes in Viserions wings other than some goddamn tech director deciding it'd look cool. There's no reasonable injury or decay that would adequately explain it, see also: pretty fresh looking undead wildlings and giants.
Aside from Jons name briefly being Sand, that's it for Dorne this season. For the life of me I can't remember where that's at in the books, nor how !TV and !BOOKS branches are going to integrate the changes.
posted by tilde at 3:31 AM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
Lot of giants, and no bones about there being maybe more than one. Not sure what would have caused those holes in Viserions wings other than some goddamn tech director deciding it'd look cool. There's no reasonable injury or decay that would adequately explain it, see also: pretty fresh looking undead wildlings and giants.
Aside from Jons name briefly being Sand, that's it for Dorne this season. For the life of me I can't remember where that's at in the books, nor how !TV and !BOOKS branches are going to integrate the changes.
posted by tilde at 3:31 AM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
How unscathed should a dragon look after being impaled by a 8' javelin, falling to earth from on high, sinking to the bottom of a lake, and being dragged back up by chains?
posted by LionIndex at 4:07 AM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by LionIndex at 4:07 AM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
There's no reasonable injury or decay that would adequately explain it, see also: pretty fresh looking undead wildlings and giants.
Be fair: it's had all the time it takes for Jon Snow to sail from East Watch down to King's Landing and back to decay. Which apparently is also how long it take Samwell Tarly to ride from Oldtown to Winterfell.
posted by davidwitteveen at 4:17 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Be fair: it's had all the time it takes for Jon Snow to sail from East Watch down to King's Landing and back to decay. Which apparently is also how long it take Samwell Tarly to ride from Oldtown to Winterfell.
posted by davidwitteveen at 4:17 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
For the life of me I can't remember where that's at in the books
IIRC, when we last left the Sand Snakes in the book, one of them was heading towards Kings Landing.
I wonder how Jon being named Aegon effects the existence of an Aegon in the book. Could it be a sign the two stories were being combined?
posted by drezdn at 4:38 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
IIRC, when we last left the Sand Snakes in the book, one of them was heading towards Kings Landing.
I wonder how Jon being named Aegon effects the existence of an Aegon in the book. Could it be a sign the two stories were being combined?
posted by drezdn at 4:38 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Looks like all Jon's dumb plan got them was Jamie "I'm not even supposed to be that good of a fighter now" Lannister, and in turn they traded the Night King a dragon, and let them destroy the wall.
posted by drezdn at 5:02 AM on August 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 5:02 AM on August 28, 2017 [10 favorites]
I have complicated feelings about GoT. While there's been some good stuff, the last 2 seasons have been a hot mess. + (Dorne BS!), as many people have described in these threads.
I wonder how many of the plot points and character developments that D+D shoehorned into this clusterfuck will be walked back/ignored in the books - if they ever come out.
posted by lalochezia at 5:20 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I wonder how many of the plot points and character developments that D+D shoehorned into this clusterfuck will be walked back/ignored in the books - if they ever come out.
posted by lalochezia at 5:20 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Lately I feel like I'm watching something closer to an adaptation of WoT than ASOIAF.
So, precisely what it wasn't supposed to be.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:31 AM on August 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
So, precisely what it wasn't supposed to be.
posted by snuffleupagus at 5:31 AM on August 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
Looks like all Jon's dumb plan got them was Jamie "I'm not even supposed to be that good of a fighter now" Lannister, and in turn they traded the Night King a dragon, and let them destroy the wall.
If everyone had just decided to ignore the Others and stay south of the Wall...there would be no problem now. The Others would not have a dragon and would be stuck on the other side.
They literally could have ignored the problem and it would have gone away.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:34 AM on August 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
If everyone had just decided to ignore the Others and stay south of the Wall...there would be no problem now. The Others would not have a dragon and would be stuck on the other side.
They literally could have ignored the problem and it would have gone away.
posted by Sangermaine at 6:34 AM on August 28, 2017 [14 favorites]
The actual way the end of the wall was shown meeting the sea so cleanly made it look like the Others could've more or less gone around the side on rafts or just build up a promontory of logs and rubble or whatever.
Dumb quibble maybe, but it had the look of a property line privacy fence that just....ends. Instead of wrapping around the sides/coastline for a while like a security fence or an actual line of fortifications.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Dumb quibble maybe, but it had the look of a property line privacy fence that just....ends. Instead of wrapping around the sides/coastline for a while like a security fence or an actual line of fortifications.
posted by snuffleupagus at 7:10 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I take back all the unkind things I've said about GRRM's writing. Because now we've seen someone else's writing of the same material and it is terrible.
The whole Sansa / Arya plot resolved so badly. It serves a purpose, this is Sansa learning who Arya has become and accepting and even learning how to use her sister's scary talents. Great! I'm already rolling my eyes at how many hundreds of pages GRRM will take to write this story, but at least it will be make some sense in the end. I expect there will be many lemon cakes.
Here in the TV show though it just makes no fucking sense. Every scene shows Littlefinger working Sansa and her falling for it. Every single scene. Until surprise!Uncle Benjin rides in a couple of meaningful glances are exchanged and Sansa has figured out the whole plot. It was that meddling Littlefinger all along. All off screen, no explanation. And so Littlefinger dies in a dumb denouement for the one of the story's most interesting characters. And something like 30 minutes of screen time this season was wasted not telling the story of Sansa and Arya well.
The Theon / Sea Ramsey plot also seems equally dumb in the short shrift it gets in this season. They literally could have been entirely removed from the show and it would be a better show. Except Sea Ramsey is apparently necessary to the larger plot somehow, whether to provide the magic fleet or to be the Golden Company Ferry Service or, just maybe, something more interesting going on with Cersei. And apparently Theon's final adventures in the Iron Islands are going to be important somehow or the show wouldn't have bothered to bring him along for one last hurrah. PS: getting kicked in the crotch fucking hurts whether you have a penis or not.
Our show-only thread has covered this amply, but it's the absolute worst that Sam gets to deliver the "I read the secret diary!" lines. He didn't read those lines, and ignored them when Gilly pointed them out to her. Gilly found them. Gilly should be there explaining them.
I did like the big meeting at King's Landing and Cersei's machinations. That all seemed pretty solid. Although that now being delivered are we at the epic's anticlimax, the slow unwinding of events that seem obviously put in motion? The big question left open for me is how Jaime's story resolves. I mean he should have ended it right there, he could have split her open before the giant zombie mountain could have moved. But no, the things we do for love.
posted by Nelson at 7:11 AM on August 28, 2017 [24 favorites]
The whole Sansa / Arya plot resolved so badly. It serves a purpose, this is Sansa learning who Arya has become and accepting and even learning how to use her sister's scary talents. Great! I'm already rolling my eyes at how many hundreds of pages GRRM will take to write this story, but at least it will be make some sense in the end. I expect there will be many lemon cakes.
Here in the TV show though it just makes no fucking sense. Every scene shows Littlefinger working Sansa and her falling for it. Every single scene. Until surprise!
The Theon / Sea Ramsey plot also seems equally dumb in the short shrift it gets in this season. They literally could have been entirely removed from the show and it would be a better show. Except Sea Ramsey is apparently necessary to the larger plot somehow, whether to provide the magic fleet or to be the Golden Company Ferry Service or, just maybe, something more interesting going on with Cersei. And apparently Theon's final adventures in the Iron Islands are going to be important somehow or the show wouldn't have bothered to bring him along for one last hurrah. PS: getting kicked in the crotch fucking hurts whether you have a penis or not.
Our show-only thread has covered this amply, but it's the absolute worst that Sam gets to deliver the "I read the secret diary!" lines. He didn't read those lines, and ignored them when Gilly pointed them out to her. Gilly found them. Gilly should be there explaining them.
I did like the big meeting at King's Landing and Cersei's machinations. That all seemed pretty solid. Although that now being delivered are we at the epic's anticlimax, the slow unwinding of events that seem obviously put in motion? The big question left open for me is how Jaime's story resolves. I mean he should have ended it right there, he could have split her open before the giant zombie mountain could have moved. But no, the things we do for love.
posted by Nelson at 7:11 AM on August 28, 2017 [24 favorites]
If anything, the show is useful in what they're bothering to handwave, so you can kind of figure out where the books are maybe going with it.
So, for example: they're bothering with the Golden Company, the only mercenary company that is somewhat Targ-loyal - just as they're showing Jon is actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. So instead of having the Golden Company stump for Young Griff, they're probably going to have them go straight to Jon once it is declared (somehow? I can't believe anyone would believe it, unless the Citadel confirms, which is probably better written in the books, but at this point 'he's a rogue trainee who stole some books' isn't exactly a ringing endorsement).
No fucking clue why they're keeping Euron Greyjoy, unless it's to give Theon his redemption - which I don't actually think /is/ happening in the books, it seems too, too twee. Actually, I'm assuming if there is a summit, it includes Euron Greyjoy as a king in Westeros in his own right, not just as part of Cersei's entourage, and probably includes FAegon.
Littlefinger being killed by Sansa/Arya is too big for them to invent, so I'm sure that's sooooort of how it happens in the books as well - except that as part of a big public execution, it makes no fucking sense for Arya to do it. Faceless Men are at their best in the shadows, and Sansa has hundreds of guards loyal to her that she stacks the audience hall with. If he gets this kind of public showy trial, my money is on him being duly executed, possibly by Royce/the rest of the Vale cohort, who have been itching to get rid of Littlefinger's influence on Robin Arryn for years.
posted by corb at 7:30 AM on August 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
So, for example: they're bothering with the Golden Company, the only mercenary company that is somewhat Targ-loyal - just as they're showing Jon is actually the rightful heir to the Iron Throne. So instead of having the Golden Company stump for Young Griff, they're probably going to have them go straight to Jon once it is declared (somehow? I can't believe anyone would believe it, unless the Citadel confirms, which is probably better written in the books, but at this point 'he's a rogue trainee who stole some books' isn't exactly a ringing endorsement).
No fucking clue why they're keeping Euron Greyjoy, unless it's to give Theon his redemption - which I don't actually think /is/ happening in the books, it seems too, too twee. Actually, I'm assuming if there is a summit, it includes Euron Greyjoy as a king in Westeros in his own right, not just as part of Cersei's entourage, and probably includes FAegon.
Littlefinger being killed by Sansa/Arya is too big for them to invent, so I'm sure that's sooooort of how it happens in the books as well - except that as part of a big public execution, it makes no fucking sense for Arya to do it. Faceless Men are at their best in the shadows, and Sansa has hundreds of guards loyal to her that she stacks the audience hall with. If he gets this kind of public showy trial, my money is on him being duly executed, possibly by Royce/the rest of the Vale cohort, who have been itching to get rid of Littlefinger's influence on Robin Arryn for years.
posted by corb at 7:30 AM on August 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
I think you can handwave Arya killing Littlefinger as Sansa sort of following Ned's rule about the person who passes judgement needing to be the one who swings the sword.
posted by drezdn at 7:33 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 7:33 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Maybe the book plot is that the Golden Company comes over with FAegon but switch loyalty to Cersei at some point anyway, so the show just cut to the chase instead. I don't necessarily believe that happens, but it's a possibility.
posted by LionIndex at 7:34 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by LionIndex at 7:34 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
snuffleupagus
Neither the books nor the show are exactly clear on this, but the Wall isn't just a physical barrier. It has some kind of magic in it as well which likely keeps the Others from just going around it.Though having fire melt it kind of undermines that, even undead dragon fire. I hope in the books the way they bring it down is done better.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:54 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Neither the books nor the show are exactly clear on this, but the Wall isn't just a physical barrier. It has some kind of magic in it as well which likely keeps the Others from just going around it.Though having fire melt it kind of undermines that, even undead dragon fire. I hope in the books the way they bring it down is done better.
posted by Sangermaine at 7:54 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm sure it will be the Horn of Winter that will bring down the wall - searched for by Mance Rayder, not found - the horn burned by Melisandre was just a regular giant-horn. The reason they couldn't find it, I assume, is because the White Walkers had it all along. But the show couldn't show that without retconing a lot, so I think that's why the whole Ice Dragon thing.
posted by corb at 8:04 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:04 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
I don't imagine the end of The Wall or of Littlefinger will happen this way in the books - The Wall need sot be anti-magicked and Littlefinger needs to have a larger move fail, not just sniffing around.
posted by mzurer at 8:07 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mzurer at 8:07 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
The AV Club has a really goodexperts review that points out the problem with these scenes being sped both up and down.
that has been par for the course as the show largely left Jaime’s continued support of Cersei to a rote return to “the things we do for love,” hearkening back to Bran’s “fall” from the tower at Winterfell. And while that might be true, the fact that Jaime spent months with Cersei after she blew up the Sept of Baelor still doesn’t track with the sense of honor we saw him developing in his time with Brienne, and that we see manifest here when he chooses to travel north on his own. It’s a case where the show spent the season delaying this moment because they needed Jaime as the face of the Lannister forces, but given the strength of his position here how did he not balk at her previous actions? Why was this the breaking point? How did the months that passed over the course of this season go by without more hesitation on Jaime’s part than we saw?posted by corb at 8:11 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Ugh, I remembered another reason why those beats were feeling shitty the whole time of the Littlefinger scene. Because we already knew it was Littlefinger's dagger, it's just that he claimed he had lost it in a bet to Tyrion before the incident - but also we already know who ordered Bran's death, and it was Joffrey, trying to do what he thought Robert would have/should have, and that was an emotionally satisfying reveal, so now undoing it to be like "it was all Littlefinger" feels cheap and corny.
posted by corb at 8:18 AM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:18 AM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
I can't believe anyone would believe it, unless the Citadel confirms, which is probably better written in the books,
Good point, why was there not a Maester representative at the big meeting? Would that not have been essential for validation and to let the truth of the zombie army propagate?
posted by sammyo at 8:20 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Good point, why was there not a Maester representative at the big meeting? Would that not have been essential for validation and to let the truth of the zombie army propagate?
posted by sammyo at 8:20 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Cersei has Qyburn. I don't think there are any actual maesters in the Red Keep. Dany doesn't have a maester. Jon left Maester Useless at Winterfell. So unless they invited a Citadel representative, which seems oddly unlikely, although it shouldn't be...
posted by elsietheeel at 8:26 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by elsietheeel at 8:26 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
So here's a question: Rhaegar is always portrayed as a genius golden child, an accomplished scholar and swordsman. He also really, really wanted a third child that his wife couldn't give him.
How did he arrive at "elope in secret with a High Lord's betrothed and not tell anyone so it looks like abduction and rape" as the solution to this problem? Didn't he realize that even if he did it in the open and everyone knew it would still have caused problems, maybe even a minor war?
I guess the answer is true lurv but from all the descriptions Rhaegar doesn't seem like the kind of person who would do something so stupid. Even if somehow it all turned out okay and the rebellion hadn't happened, what was his end game here after getting his third kid, seeing as how he would have had two living kids with his previous wife?
posted by Sangermaine at 8:31 AM on August 28, 2017 [13 favorites]
How did he arrive at "elope in secret with a High Lord's betrothed and not tell anyone so it looks like abduction and rape" as the solution to this problem? Didn't he realize that even if he did it in the open and everyone knew it would still have caused problems, maybe even a minor war?
I guess the answer is true lurv but from all the descriptions Rhaegar doesn't seem like the kind of person who would do something so stupid. Even if somehow it all turned out okay and the rebellion hadn't happened, what was his end game here after getting his third kid, seeing as how he would have had two living kids with his previous wife?
posted by Sangermaine at 8:31 AM on August 28, 2017 [13 favorites]
I don't think if they had ignored the threat from the White Walkers they would have just been trapped on the other side of The Wall. Winter is here, but it's just started. The army of the dead could just start building a snow ramp, or start climbing. The dragon makes it easier, but they were on the march and headed south of the wall eventually. We still don't really know what motivates them, unless they're really just continuing to do what they were created for - fighting back the onslaught of humans who ruined the primeval state of the continent..
posted by mzurer at 8:36 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by mzurer at 8:36 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
From Cersei's perspective, what did Tyrion have to do with the death of Tommen? I had a hard time believing he'd cop to being sorry about that, and maybe even Myrcella. Tommen killed himself after Cersei conspired with the High Sparrow to imprison Margaery and then blew everyone up. What did Tyrion have to do with that?
posted by LionIndex at 8:39 AM on August 28, 2017
posted by LionIndex at 8:39 AM on August 28, 2017
I was wondering if Bran being touched by the Night King in his vision was going to affect the magic of the wall like it did the magic of the cave they were hiding in.
posted by shothotbot at 8:41 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by shothotbot at 8:41 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Tyrion killing their father made the death of Joffrey and ascension of Tommen that much harder, pushing him to his suicide.
I think the "sorry" from Tyrion is in killing their father and making it harder on Tommen, as well as just sorry for her losing her son at all, like losing Myrcella.
posted by tilde at 8:42 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think the "sorry" from Tyrion is in killing their father and making it harder on Tommen, as well as just sorry for her losing her son at all, like losing Myrcella.
posted by tilde at 8:42 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I was wondering if Bran being touched by the Night King in his vision was going to affect the magic of the wall like it did the magic of the cave they were hiding in.
Yes, that would have made more sense, but when all you've got is an undead blue-fire-breathing dragon, every problem starts to look like a block of ice.
posted by skewed at 8:50 AM on August 28, 2017 [16 favorites]
I find I can enjoy this show a lot more when I just go do other stuff after watching it rather than check social media immediately to talk about it. I was completely engrossed by this and the previous episode while watching it (okay, except the Theon parts), which almost never happens except with really great television. Not saying that this show is great television, i don't think it has been since the end of season 3, but it is still enjoyable. It's hard not to watch and wonder why HBO didn't tell D&D to leave early and go start on their new horrible show if they didn't want to finish out this one, which was obvious as soon as they asked to do fewer episodes. But I just kind of view it as a visual treat with some great actors, all getting together and riffing on what might happen in ASOIAF.
This episode seemed to borrow liberally from some movies, could only place a couple of references though:
Arya and Sansa going full on Ingmar Berman in their last scene on the wall, staring off in the middle distance, speaking in monotone declarative sentences but not looking at each other.
Theon re-enacting the boxing scene from Cool Hand Luke except with a happy ending. Just kidding, that was stupid and boring and no one cared.
posted by skewed at 9:05 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
This episode seemed to borrow liberally from some movies, could only place a couple of references though:
Arya and Sansa going full on Ingmar Berman in their last scene on the wall, staring off in the middle distance, speaking in monotone declarative sentences but not looking at each other.
Theon re-enacting the boxing scene from Cool Hand Luke except with a happy ending. Just kidding, that was stupid and boring and no one cared.
posted by skewed at 9:05 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's just... Theon just about must be a key unexpected element of the destruction of the zombie king or his being dragged through the tv version of GoT makes no sense. (lemon cakes and gratuitous torture have an odd 'place' in the books)
posted by sammyo at 10:03 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by sammyo at 10:03 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Yeah, I'm shocked Theon is still alive on the show and I see no reason for it unless he has some sort of fairly significant part to play in the endgame. Unlike the other characters who've been kept alive against all reason (like the Hound and Bronn), he isn't a fan favorite and is pretty widely despised. I find him to be quite compelling but I know that's a minority opinion. From the way Theon's story ended in Dance with Dragons, I was sure that he had hit the logical endpoint of his arc and was about to die a redemptive death.
posted by armadillo1224 at 10:08 AM on August 28, 2017
posted by armadillo1224 at 10:08 AM on August 28, 2017
I am sure this has been discussed ad infinitum, but isn't it a little weird that Ned never told Cat that Jon was her nephew? Did he not trust her to keep it a secret? I understand that he needed to get The Mad King off the throne and Robert is his bro, but once Robert was killed, wasn't there some play that works to reveal Jon is the real heir?
posted by mzurer at 10:16 AM on August 28, 2017
posted by mzurer at 10:16 AM on August 28, 2017
once Robert was killed, wasn't there some play that works to reveal Jon is the real heir?
No, that's the trope-subverting part of it. Like, maybe Lyanna wanted him to grow up and claim his throne, but Ned just wanted him to have a life. That's why when he knew he wouldn't be able to protect him anymore - and he knew he couldn't take him to King's Landing - he sent him to the Wall. He clearly wanted Jon to live out his days, whatever happened, as just an ordinary boy/man.
posted by corb at 10:26 AM on August 28, 2017
No, that's the trope-subverting part of it. Like, maybe Lyanna wanted him to grow up and claim his throne, but Ned just wanted him to have a life. That's why when he knew he wouldn't be able to protect him anymore - and he knew he couldn't take him to King's Landing - he sent him to the Wall. He clearly wanted Jon to live out his days, whatever happened, as just an ordinary boy/man.
posted by corb at 10:26 AM on August 28, 2017
I am sure this has been discussed ad infinitum, but isn't it a little weird that Ned never told Cat that Jon was her nephew?
No body tells anyone anything. And Ned thought he had more time. He thought he had more time. Plus, patriarchy. She was worried about her sister, she was distraught over Lyanna, she was busy disliking Jon and Theon ... and maybe she knew Ned wasn't the father. Maybe she knew and was pissed that he was covering for Robert's Rebellion and had to support him because, you know, stability and, again, patriarchy. I seem to have patriarchy on the brain today. Maybe it was Jon Snow's stupid pickup line (paraphrased) "Hey, baby, maybe you are fertile!".
posted by tilde at 10:28 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
No body tells anyone anything. And Ned thought he had more time. He thought he had more time. Plus, patriarchy. She was worried about her sister, she was distraught over Lyanna, she was busy disliking Jon and Theon ... and maybe she knew Ned wasn't the father. Maybe she knew and was pissed that he was covering for Robert's Rebellion and had to support him because, you know, stability and, again, patriarchy. I seem to have patriarchy on the brain today. Maybe it was Jon Snow's stupid pickup line (paraphrased) "Hey, baby, maybe you are fertile!".
posted by tilde at 10:28 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am sure this has been discussed ad infinitum, but isn't it a littleweird that Ned never told Cat that Jon was her nephew?
No. Jon's true parentage is the biggest, most dangerous secret in Westeros. It not only completely undermines the rebellion, it makes Jon an instant target for either death or control for pretty much everyone everwhere, which would in turn endanger the Starks who harbor him.
Even if he thought he could trust Cat, the safest way to keep a secret is to never tell it to anyone, ever. That way it can't be spilled even by accident. Plus, he may have thought, rightfully in my opinion, that knowing the truth about Jon would change her behavior towards him. Her publicly acting furious and resentful over Ned's apparent infidelity is excellent cover for Jon. Any change in behavior, or behavior towards Jon that doesn't seem right for a wife who has been cheated on, might invite questions.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:39 AM on August 28, 2017 [18 favorites]
No. Jon's true parentage is the biggest, most dangerous secret in Westeros. It not only completely undermines the rebellion, it makes Jon an instant target for either death or control for pretty much everyone everwhere, which would in turn endanger the Starks who harbor him.
Even if he thought he could trust Cat, the safest way to keep a secret is to never tell it to anyone, ever. That way it can't be spilled even by accident. Plus, he may have thought, rightfully in my opinion, that knowing the truth about Jon would change her behavior towards him. Her publicly acting furious and resentful over Ned's apparent infidelity is excellent cover for Jon. Any change in behavior, or behavior towards Jon that doesn't seem right for a wife who has been cheated on, might invite questions.
posted by Sangermaine at 10:39 AM on August 28, 2017 [18 favorites]
isn't it a little weird that Ned never told Cat that Jon was her nephew?
Ned promised his sister he wouldn't tell anyone, and as this episode illustrates, Starks will keep their word to a degree far beyond what common sense would dictate.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:45 AM on August 28, 2017 [29 favorites]
Ned promised his sister he wouldn't tell anyone, and as this episode illustrates, Starks will keep their word to a degree far beyond what common sense would dictate.
posted by 1970s Antihero at 10:45 AM on August 28, 2017 [29 favorites]
So what do we suppose that Sam, Gilly and baby (and horse) ate on their superfast two wheeled cart road trip from Old Town to Winterfell? I kind of imagine that the details of the trip and the meals are the exact hang-up on why the next book hasn't come out yet, but I'm still a bit curious.
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:50 AM on August 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 10:50 AM on August 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
I am sure this has been discussed ad infinitum, but isn't it a little weird that Ned never told Cat that Jon was her nephew?
No more weird than Ned sending Jon off to the Wall when he was 16 without warning him that his life there would likely be miserable and pointless. Not sure why he didn't encourage him to be a maester, or a tradesman, or try to marry him off to a lesser bannerman or something. For all Ned knew, Jon was signing up to be a celibate border patrol agent with little or no control over his own life and no way out but death. But it was considered honorable for whatever reason, so that was fine with Ned.
posted by skewed at 10:57 AM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
No more weird than Ned sending Jon off to the Wall when he was 16 without warning him that his life there would likely be miserable and pointless. Not sure why he didn't encourage him to be a maester, or a tradesman, or try to marry him off to a lesser bannerman or something. For all Ned knew, Jon was signing up to be a celibate border patrol agent with little or no control over his own life and no way out but death. But it was considered honorable for whatever reason, so that was fine with Ned.
posted by skewed at 10:57 AM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
Steven Attewell: Thoughts on Game of Thrones, Season 7 Episode 7, “The Dragon and the Wolf”
posted by homunculus at 11:05 AM on August 28, 2017
posted by homunculus at 11:05 AM on August 28, 2017
So here's a question: Rhaegar is always portrayed as a genius golden child, an accomplished scholar and swordsman. He also really, really wanted a third child that his wife couldn't give him.
How did he arrive at "elope in secret with a High Lord's betrothed and not tell anyone so it looks like abduction and rape" as the solution to this problem? Didn't he realize that even if he did it in the open and everyone knew it would still have caused problems, maybe even a minor war?
I guess the answer is true lurv but from all the descriptions Rhaegar doesn't seem like the kind of person who would do something so stupid. Even if somehow it all turned out okay and the rebellion hadn't happened, what was his end game here after getting his third kid, seeing as how he would have had two living kids with his previous wife?
I agree with the theory that Rhaegar was less in love with Lyanna than trying to force the Prince That Was Promised prophecy to happen, and based on a whole bunch of weird motifs that pop up with Lyanna, Sansa, and some ancient Stark of legend, I think there's some bit of (unattested so far in the books) prophecy that a brightly colored knight has to win a tournament, crown a Stark Queen of Beauty, then kidnap/elope with her to produce the desired offspring.
posted by Copronymus at 11:06 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
How did he arrive at "elope in secret with a High Lord's betrothed and not tell anyone so it looks like abduction and rape" as the solution to this problem? Didn't he realize that even if he did it in the open and everyone knew it would still have caused problems, maybe even a minor war?
I guess the answer is true lurv but from all the descriptions Rhaegar doesn't seem like the kind of person who would do something so stupid. Even if somehow it all turned out okay and the rebellion hadn't happened, what was his end game here after getting his third kid, seeing as how he would have had two living kids with his previous wife?
I agree with the theory that Rhaegar was less in love with Lyanna than trying to force the Prince That Was Promised prophecy to happen, and based on a whole bunch of weird motifs that pop up with Lyanna, Sansa, and some ancient Stark of legend, I think there's some bit of (unattested so far in the books) prophecy that a brightly colored knight has to win a tournament, crown a Stark Queen of Beauty, then kidnap/elope with her to produce the desired offspring.
posted by Copronymus at 11:06 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
LionIndex: Beric pointed that out to Jon when they were trapped on the island last week.
I know - the set-up was so strong for them to use some dragon glass distance weapons, or maybe the ragged crowd fights their way, to the last man, up through the crowd, until Jon kills the Night King. But nope, not in that episode.
Sangermaine: They literally could have ignored the problem and it would have gone away.
I disagree that it'd go away - it would be much more manageable, like dealing with a siege. They got opened up to a massive hand-to-hand battle, with a pretty hefty reserve force continuously flowing through that gap in the wall. And the new zombie dragon could open new gaps and make it a multi-front battle.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:16 AM on August 28, 2017
I know - the set-up was so strong for them to use some dragon glass distance weapons, or maybe the ragged crowd fights their way, to the last man, up through the crowd, until Jon kills the Night King. But nope, not in that episode.
Sangermaine: They literally could have ignored the problem and it would have gone away.
I disagree that it'd go away - it would be much more manageable, like dealing with a siege. They got opened up to a massive hand-to-hand battle, with a pretty hefty reserve force continuously flowing through that gap in the wall. And the new zombie dragon could open new gaps and make it a multi-front battle.
posted by filthy light thief at 11:16 AM on August 28, 2017
Robert's rebellion would never have been a rebellion if when the stark men went to get Lyanna back they hadn't been roasted alive by the Mad King.
Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together would have been a huge political problem, and maybe lead to some manner of conflict political or military. But the unified rebellion only happened because the northern lords took up the sword in vengeance for the mad king burning two nobles alive for merely asking to see their daughter/sister.
posted by French Fry at 11:17 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together would have been a huge political problem, and maybe lead to some manner of conflict political or military. But the unified rebellion only happened because the northern lords took up the sword in vengeance for the mad king burning two nobles alive for merely asking to see their daughter/sister.
posted by French Fry at 11:17 AM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
All off screen, no explanation.
If it worked for Julian Fellowes for approximately 70% of Downton Abbey's most important plot points, it should work here!
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 11:20 AM on August 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
If it worked for Julian Fellowes for approximately 70% of Downton Abbey's most important plot points, it should work here!
posted by the return of the thin white sock at 11:20 AM on August 28, 2017 [6 favorites]
I think there's some bit of (unattested so far in the books) prophecy that a brightly colored knight has to win a tournament, crown a Stark Queen of Beauty, then kidnap/elope with her to produce the desired offspring.
*mind blown*
Maybe Rhaegar stumbled onto something that convinced him that the PWWP had to be a union between Fire and Ice, so he decided to put the moves on Lyanna. Considering how much a theme the books have had about the failures of parents, I think it might be a cool way to end the series as a statelmate between the living and the dead, and lingering hopes that the next generation will clean-up the current generation's new round of failures. So Dany and Cersei both live, both are pregnant, and GRRM's all set up for another 7,000 page series to figure out how to make Dorne a compelling storyline.
posted by skewed at 11:21 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
*mind blown*
Maybe Rhaegar stumbled onto something that convinced him that the PWWP had to be a union between Fire and Ice, so he decided to put the moves on Lyanna. Considering how much a theme the books have had about the failures of parents, I think it might be a cool way to end the series as a statelmate between the living and the dead, and lingering hopes that the next generation will clean-up the current generation's new round of failures. So Dany and Cersei both live, both are pregnant, and GRRM's all set up for another 7,000 page series to figure out how to make Dorne a compelling storyline.
posted by skewed at 11:21 AM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
If anything, the show is useful in what they're bothering to handwave, so you can kind of figure out where the books are maybe going with it.
I just realized this is why I still enjoy the show, despite all the 100% deserved criticism of it. I take the show's plot points with the same seriousness I take any other zany prediction/interpretation I hear from my friends/coworkers/random internet people. The show is just a focal point for further discussion on what really happens. I'm at the point where my headcannon is much more important to me than what happens onscreen. My expectations for the show aren't just lowered, they're basically that the show is only relevant in a limited way to the "real" GoT/ASOIAF. For that matter, the books are pretty much that way now, too.
Oh, this is also why I still like Star Wars.
posted by skewed at 11:30 AM on August 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
Speaking of Star Wars: I keep thinking that Jaime putting on that glove was a deliberate Luke Skywalker reference, and that seems really weird to me.
posted by the phlegmatic king at 11:40 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by the phlegmatic king at 11:40 AM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I agree with the theory that Rhaegar was less in love with Lyanna than trying to force the Prince That Was Promised prophecy to happen, and based on a whole bunch of weird motifs that pop up with Lyanna, Sansa, and some ancient Stark of legend, I think there's some bit of (unattested so far in the books) prophecy that a brightly colored knight has to win a tournament, crown a Stark Queen of Beauty, then kidnap/elope with her to produce the desired offspring.
No, I understand that. My point is that, wanting all that, Rhaegar must have known that taking Lyanna as hedid would likely plunge the kingdom into civil war, and that fracturing the kingdom and having half of it gunning for Targaryen blood might have some impact on Rhagar's plans.
It seems dumb to arrange all this prophecy stuff without regard to what happens the moment after the Prince That Was Promised is born. TPTWP isn't much good if he's immediately killed when Lyanna's vengeful family/fiancee come and murder him and his entire house, or his entire childhood is spent fighting a brutal civil war against the Houses Rhaegar angered.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:50 AM on August 28, 2017
No, I understand that. My point is that, wanting all that, Rhaegar must have known that taking Lyanna as hedid would likely plunge the kingdom into civil war, and that fracturing the kingdom and having half of it gunning for Targaryen blood might have some impact on Rhagar's plans.
It seems dumb to arrange all this prophecy stuff without regard to what happens the moment after the Prince That Was Promised is born. TPTWP isn't much good if he's immediately killed when Lyanna's vengeful family/fiancee come and murder him and his entire house, or his entire childhood is spent fighting a brutal civil war against the Houses Rhaegar angered.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:50 AM on August 28, 2017
Rhaegar and Lyanna running off together would have been a huge political problem, and maybe lead to some manner of conflict political or military. But the unified rebellion only happened because the northern lords took up the sword in vengeance for the mad king burning two nobles alive for merely asking to see their daughter/sister
They didn't just ask to see Lyanna (A Clash of Kings, Chapter 55):
The Mad King, being mad, might have killed them anyway even for that, but maybe not.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:59 AM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
They didn't just ask to see Lyanna (A Clash of Kings, Chapter 55):
Jaime then steers the conversation to what really happened to Brandon Stark and Lord Rickard at the hands of the Mad King Aerys, perhaps to absolve himself of having slain the king. Brandon was on his way to Riverrun when he learned of Lyanna's disappearance, and instead went to King's Landing with a handful of friends, all sons of prominent lords, and upon entering the Red Keep, Brandon shouted for Rhaegar to "come out and die".The Starks came howling for blood because they thought Lyanna had been abducted and was being held against her will by Rhaegar. If Rhaegar and Lyanna had been public about their marriage, the Starks and Baratheons would have been pissed but would probably have come to the capital looking for an explanation and a fix, not a fight.
The Mad King, being mad, might have killed them anyway even for that, but maybe not.
posted by Sangermaine at 11:59 AM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
My point is that, wanting all that, Rhaegar must have known that taking Lyanna as hedid would likely plunge the kingdom into civil war, and that fracturing the kingdom and having half of it gunning for Targaryen blood might have some impact on Rhagar's plans.
I'm not so sure he would have. I'm sure he knew that Robert would have been angry, but he might not have understood the extent to which Robert was an impulsive teen with a crush on Lyanna. The other thing he definitely didn't understand is that the older generation of High Lords (Tywin, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Ned Stark's dad, etc.) had been putting into place a realm-wide anti-Targaryen network that was ready to band together at the slightest provocation. He might have been able to anticipate that Robert would do something stupid, but to expect 4 or 5 of the 7 kingdoms to flip at once is a couple of orders of magnitude more than he could have imagined.
Also I think Rhaegar probably was dumb, or at least myopically short-sighted, and honestly didn't care about anything beyond fulfilling his prophecy. He might have also had a relatively narrow window if he specifically needed to run off with an unmarried daughter of the Lord of Winterfell.
posted by Copronymus at 12:09 PM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
I'm not so sure he would have. I'm sure he knew that Robert would have been angry, but he might not have understood the extent to which Robert was an impulsive teen with a crush on Lyanna. The other thing he definitely didn't understand is that the older generation of High Lords (Tywin, Jon Arryn, Hoster Tully, Ned Stark's dad, etc.) had been putting into place a realm-wide anti-Targaryen network that was ready to band together at the slightest provocation. He might have been able to anticipate that Robert would do something stupid, but to expect 4 or 5 of the 7 kingdoms to flip at once is a couple of orders of magnitude more than he could have imagined.
Also I think Rhaegar probably was dumb, or at least myopically short-sighted, and honestly didn't care about anything beyond fulfilling his prophecy. He might have also had a relatively narrow window if he specifically needed to run off with an unmarried daughter of the Lord of Winterfell.
posted by Copronymus at 12:09 PM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
> No fucking clue why they're keeping Euron Greyjoy, unless it's to give Theon his redemption - which I don't actually think /is/ happening in the books, it seems too, too twee. Actually, I'm assuming if there is a summit, it includes Euron Greyjoy as a king in Westeros in his own right, not just as part of Cersei's entourage, and probably includes FAegon.
I think that's all it is. The showrunners love Theon, and have been happy to dumb down other characters around him in order to justify his presence, like Sansa during and after the escape from Ramsey and Yara at the Kingsmoot. They're going to keep Theon hanging on until the bitter end, or at least until he rescues his newly damselized sister.
posted by homunculus at 12:18 PM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I think that's all it is. The showrunners love Theon, and have been happy to dumb down other characters around him in order to justify his presence, like Sansa during and after the escape from Ramsey and Yara at the Kingsmoot. They're going to keep Theon hanging on until the bitter end, or at least until he rescues his newly damselized sister.
posted by homunculus at 12:18 PM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
> Maybe the book plot is that the Golden Company comes over with FAegon but switch loyalty to Cersei at some point anyway, so the show just cut to the chase instead. I don't necessarily believe that happens, but it's a possibility.
That's exactly what I thought. They know how the story ends, so I think it's entirely possible that the Golden Comapny is going to end up allying with Cersei, or maybe just against Dany, in the books.
posted by homunculus at 12:21 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
That's exactly what I thought. They know how the story ends, so I think it's entirely possible that the Golden Comapny is going to end up allying with Cersei, or maybe just against Dany, in the books.
posted by homunculus at 12:21 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
The Fandomentals: Disappointing Boat Sex, Empty Shocks, and Bad Baby Names Prevail on Thrones Finale
posted by homunculus at 12:38 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 12:38 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Man, you people. For a different take from the AV Club: Game Of Thrones slows down for the longest, and best, episode of the season.
posted by Justinian at 12:40 PM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Justinian at 12:40 PM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Something that hit me last night - after telling him the order in which to kill people, Cersei says "Come, Ser Gregor.".
I could have sworn they carried the fiction of "Ser Robert Strong" into the series. And, yet, everyone obviously knows that guy's the Mountain. So, am I just misremembering?
posted by hanov3r at 1:18 PM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
I could have sworn they carried the fiction of "Ser Robert Strong" into the series. And, yet, everyone obviously knows that guy's the Mountain. So, am I just misremembering?
posted by hanov3r at 1:18 PM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
she starts out with robert strong but she drops it like halfway through last season. At least in private conversation.
posted by French Fry at 1:23 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by French Fry at 1:23 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
From the review I posted above:
posted by homunculus at 1:24 PM on August 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
Cersei is pissed that Dany is late, but little did she know Dany just wanted to make a dramatic entrance. She arrives on the back of Drogon with Rhaegal behind her and frankly no one seems that impressed or moved, other than Euron who looks like he finally remembered his desire to marry her was a plot point a season ago. Also, like, shouldn’t we have gotten the small folk reacting to the fact that a FUCKING DRAGON flew over Kings Landing? That’s huge and they certainly couldn’t miss it. Creating a sense of wonder around this event and this meetup, and to start spreading news of Dany’s return to Westeros on a smaller scale, would have been really nice additions to worldbulding, but unfortunately that ship has sailed and it is now the goal to make everything as hollow as could be.I've been waiting for a scene like that ever since the dragon's shadow passed over King's Landing in Bran's vision several seasons ago. That would have been a great little touch.
posted by homunculus at 1:24 PM on August 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
I could have sworn they carried the fiction of "Ser Robert Strong" into the series. And, yet, everyone obviously knows that guy's the Mountain. So, am I just misremembering?
I think they just wanted to be consistent so casual fans won't get confused about the conflict between two characters that haven't had a scene together in six years.
posted by skewed at 2:13 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think they just wanted to be consistent so casual fans won't get confused about the conflict between two characters that haven't had a scene together in six years.
posted by skewed at 2:13 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Speaking as someone who has been on the wrong end of a good hard kick to the taint, missing your junk is not the superpower that Theon's fight would lead you to believe.
Cersei, I have long said that the Martells are the gold standard in bad planning, but even by Martell standards what you have is a very bad plan. Tycho Nestoris made explicit that the support of the Iron Bank was dependent upon prompt repayment of the Lannisters' outstanding loans, and the gold that was meant to pay off that debt ran into a dragon. And how long do you expect your LOLPSYCH plan to fool Dany? Especially since you explained it to Jaime and then let him run off to tell her? You’ve bought yourself a day or two of lead time, if that.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:48 PM on August 28, 2017
Cersei, I have long said that the Martells are the gold standard in bad planning, but even by Martell standards what you have is a very bad plan. Tycho Nestoris made explicit that the support of the Iron Bank was dependent upon prompt repayment of the Lannisters' outstanding loans, and the gold that was meant to pay off that debt ran into a dragon. And how long do you expect your LOLPSYCH plan to fool Dany? Especially since you explained it to Jaime and then let him run off to tell her? You’ve bought yourself a day or two of lead time, if that.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 2:48 PM on August 28, 2017
didn't we establish that the gold made it to KL and it was grain that got zorched?
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:55 PM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by OHenryPacey at 2:55 PM on August 28, 2017 [5 favorites]
Did we? It's possible that I missed that.
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:01 PM on August 28, 2017
posted by Parasite Unseen at 3:01 PM on August 28, 2017
Yes, they had a few seconds of dialogue between Jaime and Tarly (I think) about how spread out their men were, but no worries, the gold has made it to Kings Landing, now just have to wait for all their men and grain to make the uneventful journey across the---OH NO DRAGONS!!!
posted by skewed at 3:04 PM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by skewed at 3:04 PM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
Chrys Reviews: Game of Thrones Season 7 Finale: Goodbye Blue Sky
a monstrous she wolf: What you missed on 7x07 of Game of Thrones
posted by homunculus at 3:10 PM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
a monstrous she wolf: What you missed on 7x07 of Game of Thrones
posted by homunculus at 3:10 PM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
My hearing is not the best, so I initially thought Lyanna had named the baby "Neddard Targaryen". I was so in awe at how crap that sounded that I was honestly a bit disappointed when my husband corrected me.
posted by arha at 3:56 PM on August 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
posted by arha at 3:56 PM on August 28, 2017 [7 favorites]
"Eddard Targaryen" is my bet for the name of JonAegon and Dany's super-inbred destiny's child.
posted by The Tensor at 4:06 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by The Tensor at 4:06 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Let's just call him AeJon.
posted by LionIndex at 4:10 PM on August 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
posted by LionIndex at 4:10 PM on August 28, 2017 [8 favorites]
I'm really disappointed that this is how the story has turned out, but talking to show watcher friends they nearly unanimously agreed that they never expected the story to have anything other than a happy ending. Maybe my expectations of a deeper story from the book are clouding my ability to like the hard R rated dragon show... I would actually say that if the show had no connection to the books, and had always just been high fantasy fluff, then I would probably actually enjoy it. I can't do that though, so (to me) this finale was a crap end to two crap seasons, where all of the characters I used to enjoy following got dumber, and the events I thought I wanted to see were accomplished invariably in the most ham handed way possible. I'll keep watching, but so as to not be a bring-down, I'm definitely not going to participate in discussions as much - I can't imagine other people care about how personally mad I am at a TV show.
One question I have: we have two major conflicts for next year, so which one gets resolved first? Cersei is the villain that most viewers actually care about (since the walkers are so incredibly paper thin). The walkers, however, seem to be a much more pressing threat.
One possibility I could see is that Cersei is basically abandoned by her forces as Jon and Daeny muster together a coalition to fight the walkers - possibly this is spurred on by major holds of the North being wiped out, and word spreading to the rest of the continent (that should only take about a day, given current Raven Speed Technology) that the apocalypse is real. Maybe one or both die, but whatever remains now has popular support, since they've acted heroically. The idea of 'fuck honor' becomes a more prevalent one, and Cersei's becomes a lost cause. Maybe she joins forces with the white walkers, who could potentially offer her the option of ruling over the ashes as a way to spite a world that has spurned her - maybe Qyburn is the liaison there... Cersei / The White Walkers become the symbol of old patriarchy / the apocalypse, and the increasingly embattled remnants lead by Jon / Daeny / Sansa / Tyrion / Arya have enough popular support where they could efficiently break the wheel by instituting a constitutional monarchy in place of the singular power of the iron throne.
Euron and the golden company sort of throw a wrench into things, however they might free up Daeny to more openly use her military, since now Cersei will also have an invading horde of foreigners, and the... uh, 'optics' of Dothraki Screamers might be a little more palatable over a brutal merc army. Who knows, though.
posted by codacorolla at 4:17 PM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
One question I have: we have two major conflicts for next year, so which one gets resolved first? Cersei is the villain that most viewers actually care about (since the walkers are so incredibly paper thin). The walkers, however, seem to be a much more pressing threat.
One possibility I could see is that Cersei is basically abandoned by her forces as Jon and Daeny muster together a coalition to fight the walkers - possibly this is spurred on by major holds of the North being wiped out, and word spreading to the rest of the continent (that should only take about a day, given current Raven Speed Technology) that the apocalypse is real. Maybe one or both die, but whatever remains now has popular support, since they've acted heroically. The idea of 'fuck honor' becomes a more prevalent one, and Cersei's becomes a lost cause. Maybe she joins forces with the white walkers, who could potentially offer her the option of ruling over the ashes as a way to spite a world that has spurned her - maybe Qyburn is the liaison there... Cersei / The White Walkers become the symbol of old patriarchy / the apocalypse, and the increasingly embattled remnants lead by Jon / Daeny / Sansa / Tyrion / Arya have enough popular support where they could efficiently break the wheel by instituting a constitutional monarchy in place of the singular power of the iron throne.
Euron and the golden company sort of throw a wrench into things, however they might free up Daeny to more openly use her military, since now Cersei will also have an invading horde of foreigners, and the... uh, 'optics' of Dothraki Screamers might be a little more palatable over a brutal merc army. Who knows, though.
posted by codacorolla at 4:17 PM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
The idea of 'fuck honor' becomes a more prevalent one, and Cersei's becomes a lost cause. Maybe she joins forces with the white walkers, who could potentially offer her the option of ruling over the ashes as a way to spite a world that has spurned her
I had an idle thought about the plot echoing history again by having a reversal of the old Night's King tale (the book one who was a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, not the show version that's just White Walker Leader), where Cersei weds the show Night King. If it gives her power and near-invincible offspring, I can't think of a reason she wouldn't do it.
posted by LionIndex at 4:42 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I had an idle thought about the plot echoing history again by having a reversal of the old Night's King tale (the book one who was a Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, not the show version that's just White Walker Leader), where Cersei weds the show Night King. If it gives her power and near-invincible offspring, I can't think of a reason she wouldn't do it.
posted by LionIndex at 4:42 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
KL becoming a city of the dead that is burned to the ground, and then rebuilt as a democratic power has a lot of resonance with the themes of the books. Actually, all of the promo material for this season was the Iron Throne covered in show, so I sort of though that might happen this season.
posted by codacorolla at 4:43 PM on August 28, 2017
posted by codacorolla at 4:43 PM on August 28, 2017
Let's just call him AeJon.
"AeJon: Hold my ale!"
"AeJon: Watch THIS!"
posted by tilde at 4:45 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
"AeJon: Hold my ale!"
"AeJon: Watch THIS!"
posted by tilde at 4:45 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Another season ends, and it's time to bag up the dice, toss out the empty pizza boxes, and recycle the Mtn Dew bottles. Your last D&D D&D recap, until our last season.
• Bronn nopes right out of reading the mass combat rules. An audience stand-in, if there ever was one!
• Tyrion fails a Persuade contest against Bronn while trying to lure him to his side.
• Sandor passes Intimidation checks against a couple Lannister soldiers.
• Cersei & Co. just barely pass their Wis saves against Drogon's Frightful Presence.
• Sandor uses a special trip attack against the wight, who is knocked prone, then slices it in half.
• The wights apparently share with trolls a resistance to dismemberment, yet vulnerability to fire.
• Daenerys nearly succeeds in a difficult Persuasion contest against Cersei, yet fails after Jon fails an Insight check of his own.
• Tyrion succeeds (or does he???) in a number of Persuasion contests against Cersei.
• Sansa and Littlefinger continue their dance of Insight, Deception, and Persuasion checks.
• Theon engages in unarmed combat against another Iron Islander. His capacity for taking punishment indicates an extremely high Constitution score. He then passes a Persuasion check against the other Iron Islander NPCs (perhaps with advantage, after his victory).
• Sansa and Arya spring their ploy against Littlefinger, who, with disadvantage, rolls a "1" in a Persuasion contest against Lord Runestone.
• Arya delivers what is essentially a coup de grâce against Littlefinger. Her Sneak Attack ability likely doesn't apply in this case, but it nonetheless is a critical strike that instantly kills a level 0 noble.
• Cersei fails Persuasion and Intimidation checks against Jaime, even though the presence of UnGregor may have given her advantage.
• At Sam's urging, Bran casts legend lore a few more times to uncover more about Jon's origins.
• Jon & Dany practice some special edition grappling rules.
• Bran uses his scrying ritual again to observe the Others' attack against Eastwatch.
• The Night King appears on his new dracolich mount, which uses its breath weapon to take out a large section of the Wall. Per the MM, a dracolich keeps the type of breath weapon it had in life, but the DM house-rules a variant breath weapon (let's call it "cold fire") for dramatic effect.
• The Wall comes tumbling down, neatly setting up the final fight against the true BBEG of the campaign. The DM is clearly railroading the party at this point, but everyone simply wants the campaign to wrap up in a timely fashion (besides, the actual written adventure will likely be never fully published, so the DM has had to wing it).
This commenter has been pleased to bring you these recaps for 2+ seasons. What started as a lark in response to another flippant comment, during the nadir of Season 5, has turned into an ongoing project. Thank you all for allowing these light-hearted things to leaven the conversation!
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 4:54 PM on August 28, 2017 [49 favorites]
• Bronn nopes right out of reading the mass combat rules. An audience stand-in, if there ever was one!
• Tyrion fails a Persuade contest against Bronn while trying to lure him to his side.
• Sandor passes Intimidation checks against a couple Lannister soldiers.
• Cersei & Co. just barely pass their Wis saves against Drogon's Frightful Presence.
• Sandor uses a special trip attack against the wight, who is knocked prone, then slices it in half.
• The wights apparently share with trolls a resistance to dismemberment, yet vulnerability to fire.
• Daenerys nearly succeeds in a difficult Persuasion contest against Cersei, yet fails after Jon fails an Insight check of his own.
• Tyrion succeeds (or does he???) in a number of Persuasion contests against Cersei.
• Sansa and Littlefinger continue their dance of Insight, Deception, and Persuasion checks.
• Theon engages in unarmed combat against another Iron Islander. His capacity for taking punishment indicates an extremely high Constitution score. He then passes a Persuasion check against the other Iron Islander NPCs (perhaps with advantage, after his victory).
• Sansa and Arya spring their ploy against Littlefinger, who, with disadvantage, rolls a "1" in a Persuasion contest against Lord Runestone.
• Arya delivers what is essentially a coup de grâce against Littlefinger. Her Sneak Attack ability likely doesn't apply in this case, but it nonetheless is a critical strike that instantly kills a level 0 noble.
• Cersei fails Persuasion and Intimidation checks against Jaime, even though the presence of UnGregor may have given her advantage.
• At Sam's urging, Bran casts legend lore a few more times to uncover more about Jon's origins.
• Jon & Dany practice some special edition grappling rules.
• Bran uses his scrying ritual again to observe the Others' attack against Eastwatch.
• The Night King appears on his new dracolich mount, which uses its breath weapon to take out a large section of the Wall. Per the MM, a dracolich keeps the type of breath weapon it had in life, but the DM house-rules a variant breath weapon (let's call it "cold fire") for dramatic effect.
• The Wall comes tumbling down, neatly setting up the final fight against the true BBEG of the campaign. The DM is clearly railroading the party at this point, but everyone simply wants the campaign to wrap up in a timely fashion (besides, the actual written adventure will likely be never fully published, so the DM has had to wing it).
This commenter has been pleased to bring you these recaps for 2+ seasons. What started as a lark in response to another flippant comment, during the nadir of Season 5, has turned into an ongoing project. Thank you all for allowing these light-hearted things to leaven the conversation!
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 4:54 PM on August 28, 2017 [49 favorites]
but talking to show watcher friends they nearly unanimously agreed that they never expected the story to have anything other than a happy ending.
I've always expected a bittersweet ending, with the great war won by the living, but few if any of the heroes getting what they set out for (e.g., I would bet real money Dany never sits the Iron Throne, but she might survive and be a benevolent force in a new Westeros). I can't imagine a truly happy ending, I'm not even sure what that would mean at this point. Hope they're not too disappointed. But if ratings is any indicator, apparently people aren't.
posted by skewed at 4:57 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
I've always expected a bittersweet ending, with the great war won by the living, but few if any of the heroes getting what they set out for (e.g., I would bet real money Dany never sits the Iron Throne, but she might survive and be a benevolent force in a new Westeros). I can't imagine a truly happy ending, I'm not even sure what that would mean at this point. Hope they're not too disappointed. But if ratings is any indicator, apparently people aren't.
posted by skewed at 4:57 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
As always, the D&D recaps are a bright point of the show. Out of curiosity, why would LF be a level 0 character?
posted by codacorolla at 4:59 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by codacorolla at 4:59 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
Most NPCs are described as level 0, as they don't progress like heroic PCs do. There are even a number of NPC classes, like warrior, or merchant, or noble, in which a NPC can't actually progress. Petyr Baelish always seemed like an NPC in this campaign, a villain even, not a PC, so it seemed fitting as well that a simple but vicious cut could kill him.
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 5:02 PM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by The Nutmeg of Consolation at 5:02 PM on August 28, 2017 [3 favorites]
Oh, I just remembered by big WTF moment of the episode--dragonglass kills wights just like white walkers? Is that consistent with earlier seasons? Or the books?
posted by skewed at 5:02 PM on August 28, 2017
posted by skewed at 5:02 PM on August 28, 2017
I don't remember it ever being established one way or the other. As far as I remember, Sam's the only one in the books to every wield a dragonglass weapon of any sort, and he used it against a walker. It surprised me too, but what it does to them makes sense - they don't shatter like the walkers do, it just robs them of their animation.
posted by LionIndex at 5:10 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by LionIndex at 5:10 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
> but talking to show watcher friends they nearly unanimously agreed that they never expected the story to have anything other than a happy ending.
I've always expected a bittersweet ending, with the great war won by the living, but few if any of the heroes getting what they set out for
Yeah, I didn't read the books until after season 5, and I've been assuming since the end of the third season that it would have a bittersweet ending (which is what GRRM has actually promised for the books). But with all the cliches getting thrown around, I'll be pleasantly surprised if the showrunners don't chicken out.
posted by homunculus at 8:28 PM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I've always expected a bittersweet ending, with the great war won by the living, but few if any of the heroes getting what they set out for
Yeah, I didn't read the books until after season 5, and I've been assuming since the end of the third season that it would have a bittersweet ending (which is what GRRM has actually promised for the books). But with all the cliches getting thrown around, I'll be pleasantly surprised if the showrunners don't chicken out.
posted by homunculus at 8:28 PM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
I guess the term 'Greenseer' has never been mentioned on the show, but it is part of the lore and could be introduced any time. If Bran would just say "I'm a Greenseer" instead of the Three-eyed Raven, at least some of the characters might have some vague idea what the fuck he was talking about.
posted by homunculus at 8:29 PM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 8:29 PM on August 28, 2017 [2 favorites]
Anyone who still feels the need to get their ASOIAF fix, you might want to consider checking out the 2012 Game of Thrones RPG video game by Cyanide Studios. While it uses some of the actors from the show as characters/voice actors, the story world is taken from the books rather than the show. As a game it's got some flaws, but the writing is pretty good so far. I've been playing it for a few weeks (I'm only on the 6th out of 16 chapters) and so far it's pretty fun and engaging.
posted by homunculus at 9:52 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by homunculus at 9:52 PM on August 28, 2017 [1 favorite]
The DM is clearly railroading the party at this point, but everyone simply wants the campaign to wrap up in a timely fashion (besides, the actual written adventure will likely be never fully published, so the DM has had to wing it).
Thank you for an excellent summary of just what feels wrong with the show these days.
posted by traveler_ at 10:16 PM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
Thank you for an excellent summary of just what feels wrong with the show these days.
posted by traveler_ at 10:16 PM on August 28, 2017 [4 favorites]
LARB: The Fantasy of an Enemy by Aaron Bady & Being Petyr Baelish by Sarah Mesle
posted by homunculus at 11:51 AM on August 29, 2017
posted by homunculus at 11:51 AM on August 29, 2017
There's no dispute that Littlefinger's a nasty character, but the propriety of Littlefinger's trial and execution is amiss. Technically, he's the de facto head of another House and so a co-equal of Sansa/Jon, not a sub-ordinate. Would the Starks have "jurisdiction" over him? The acts he's accused of happened elsewhere, and the only reason Sansa can bring them up is, I presume, Bran, maybe except Lisa Arryn's fall. Don't remember if Sansa witnessed that. Other than the Starks, would anyone appreciate the testimony of the 'seer' sibling as valid evidence?
He's also someone who was executed while he was a guest. That reminds me of some past incident in this story..
posted by Gyan at 1:04 PM on August 29, 2017 [5 favorites]
He's also someone who was executed while he was a guest. That reminds me of some past incident in this story..
posted by Gyan at 1:04 PM on August 29, 2017 [5 favorites]
Oh thank god, it's books included.
In the books, if they do this, I imagine they'll have Robin Arryn and advisers involved - he (creepily) likes Sansa as well, and his advisors all despise Littlefinger. I just can't see it happening like that at all, for some of the reasons you yourself have outlined.
posted by corb at 1:19 PM on August 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
In the books, if they do this, I imagine they'll have Robin Arryn and advisers involved - he (creepily) likes Sansa as well, and his advisors all despise Littlefinger. I just can't see it happening like that at all, for some of the reasons you yourself have outlined.
posted by corb at 1:19 PM on August 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Jon's King in the North, and Sansa is ruling as his regent or hand of the king or whatever, so Baelish isn't an equal party. In the show isn't the Vale part of the North anyway? It's listed as such on the GoT wiki, not that that's definitive.
Sansa was an eyewitness to Lysa's murder, presumably she made that clear to the Knights of the Vale outside of Baelish's presence shortly before his execution. It's weird and rushed story telling to just have Bran testify, but who knows what evidentiary standards prevail in Westerosi courts.
I'm guessing guest's privileges don't withstand being found guilty of murder/treason by the sovereign.
So in the show, was Littlefinger the one responsible for sending the assassin to kill Bran, rather than Jeoffrey? I don't understand his motivation for doing so, or even how that was logistically possible, considering he was in King's Landing at the time (we don't even see him until Ned and Catelyn arrive in KL). Not that Jeoffrey's motivations made much sense, I think it was supposed to be because his father thought it'd be better for Bran to die than let him live in misery.
posted by skewed at 1:27 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Sansa was an eyewitness to Lysa's murder, presumably she made that clear to the Knights of the Vale outside of Baelish's presence shortly before his execution. It's weird and rushed story telling to just have Bran testify, but who knows what evidentiary standards prevail in Westerosi courts.
I'm guessing guest's privileges don't withstand being found guilty of murder/treason by the sovereign.
So in the show, was Littlefinger the one responsible for sending the assassin to kill Bran, rather than Jeoffrey? I don't understand his motivation for doing so, or even how that was logistically possible, considering he was in King's Landing at the time (we don't even see him until Ned and Catelyn arrive in KL). Not that Jeoffrey's motivations made much sense, I think it was supposed to be because his father thought it'd be better for Bran to die than let him live in misery.
posted by skewed at 1:27 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Technically, he's the de facto head of another House and so a co-equal of Sansa/Jon, not a sub-ordinate. Would the Starks have "jurisdiction" over him? The acts he's accused of happened elsewhere, and the only reason Sansa can bring them up is, I presume, Bran, maybe except Lisa Arryn's fall. Don't remember if Sansa witnessed that. Other than the Starks, would anyone appreciate the testimony of the 'seer' sibling as valid evidence?
Robin Arryn was always the head of House Arryn even though LF was the acting Lord Paramount of the Vale. Lord Royce's primary allegiance is to Robin, as it was to Jon Aryn (who was murdered by LF and Lysa) before him. And Sansa was there when LF threw Lysa out the Moon Door.
He's also someone who was executed while he was a guest. That reminds me of some past incident in this story.
We never saw Jon or Sansa formally extend guest rights to LF the way Walder Frey did to Robb and Catelyn, so I don't think it's the same thing. Since LF had committed crimes directly against members of the Stark family, I think most Westerosi would say that they were in their rights to execute him.
In the show isn't the Vale part of the North anyway? It's listed as such on the GoT wiki, not that that's definitive.
The Vale is not part of the North geographically, but Sansa said that Baelish had declared for the Starks, so I guess LF convinced Robyn to acknowledge Jon as his liege.
So in the show, was Littlefinger the one responsible for sending the assassin to kill Bran, rather than Jeoffrey?
That's the only conclusion I can see from Arya saying that the dagger was LF's all along.
posted by homunculus at 2:59 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Robin Arryn was always the head of House Arryn even though LF was the acting Lord Paramount of the Vale. Lord Royce's primary allegiance is to Robin, as it was to Jon Aryn (who was murdered by LF and Lysa) before him. And Sansa was there when LF threw Lysa out the Moon Door.
He's also someone who was executed while he was a guest. That reminds me of some past incident in this story.
We never saw Jon or Sansa formally extend guest rights to LF the way Walder Frey did to Robb and Catelyn, so I don't think it's the same thing. Since LF had committed crimes directly against members of the Stark family, I think most Westerosi would say that they were in their rights to execute him.
In the show isn't the Vale part of the North anyway? It's listed as such on the GoT wiki, not that that's definitive.
The Vale is not part of the North geographically, but Sansa said that Baelish had declared for the Starks, so I guess LF convinced Robyn to acknowledge Jon as his liege.
So in the show, was Littlefinger the one responsible for sending the assassin to kill Bran, rather than Jeoffrey?
That's the only conclusion I can see from Arya saying that the dagger was LF's all along.
posted by homunculus at 2:59 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Littlefinger as the guy ordering the assasination really makes zero sense, I had forgotten the timeline for Bran's assasination attempt when I was watching. At that point, it's not even clear how Littlefinger would know Bran is injured, and if he did, what does he do, send a raven to Winterfell's slums looking for an assassin? And even if he knew, why would Littlefinger want him dead, he'd have no way of knowing what Bran knew about Jaime & Cersei. And even if he somehow knew, why wouldn't he be eager to have Bran tell what he knew, as that would sow the most chaos in Westeros, it could have led to a war between the Baratheon's and Lannisters, leaving both houses weaker.
posted by skewed at 4:16 PM on August 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by skewed at 4:16 PM on August 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Lord Royce was also acting as guardian for Robyn, and was the guy that LF demanded take him back to the Vale, and he's kind of the head liege lord for the Vale. The Knights of the Vale were basically in the room (where it happens) when LF was executed, so I'd assume that "the Vale" as such at least gave tacit approval of LF's death, especially after all the stuff about Jon Arryn.
posted by LionIndex at 5:10 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by LionIndex at 5:10 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Littlefinger as the guy ordering the assasination really makes zero sense
I can lampshade it for you if you'd like --- say LF orders the attempt back in KL when he hears Robert is going to make Ned his Hand. Stark kid killed w "Tyrion's" dagger makes sense as a method of causing a rupture between Stark and Lannister with or without the window shove.
posted by Diablevert at 6:13 PM on August 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
I can lampshade it for you if you'd like --- say LF orders the attempt back in KL when he hears Robert is going to make Ned his Hand. Stark kid killed w "Tyrion's" dagger makes sense as a method of causing a rupture between Stark and Lannister with or without the window shove.
posted by Diablevert at 6:13 PM on August 29, 2017 [3 favorites]
So in the show, was Littlefinger the one responsible for sending the assassin to kill Bran, rather than Jeoffrey?
Wouldn't it make more sense for LF to ingratiate himself with Joffrey by giving him a dagger he can use to kill Bran and implicate Tyrion?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:32 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Wouldn't it make more sense for LF to ingratiate himself with Joffrey by giving him a dagger he can use to kill Bran and implicate Tyrion?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:32 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Or even for LF to give Joffrey a dagger that he can use to kill *someone* and have Tyrion framed for it?
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:33 PM on August 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:33 PM on August 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Sure, LF's dagger is Valeryan steel, but you don't need that to kill Bran (at the time); any old dagger would do.
Chaos *is* a ladder; by hiring an (incompetent) assassin who leaves the improbably fancy dagger behind and having it lead to Tyrion did get Ned to do something rash (order Tyrion abducted) - only for the "evidence" to be tainted/questionable gives the Lanisters reasonable justification for going after Ned (you abducted him without good evidence!).
Meanwhile, LF is ingratiating himself with Ned in order to set him up for a downfall ("Didn't I tell you not to trust me?") which (ultimately) ingratiates himself for real to Joffrey for giving his family a win.
Wasn't that what got LF a(nother) castle, and prime minister-ship (?) of the Vale? It's been so long since I've read the books.
The timeline in my mind is jumbled, but he got a chance to attempt to "comfort" Catelyn over Ned's troubles, too, didn't he?
Keep in mind, LF (and Lyssa) were instrumental in Jon Arryn's poisoning, which set the "Ned for Hand" events in motion so planting false evidence via inept assassin was probably planned before Bran ever caught Cersei/Jaime doing teh incest in the tower.
posted by porpoise at 7:25 PM on August 29, 2017
Chaos *is* a ladder; by hiring an (incompetent) assassin who leaves the improbably fancy dagger behind and having it lead to Tyrion did get Ned to do something rash (order Tyrion abducted) - only for the "evidence" to be tainted/questionable gives the Lanisters reasonable justification for going after Ned (you abducted him without good evidence!).
Meanwhile, LF is ingratiating himself with Ned in order to set him up for a downfall ("Didn't I tell you not to trust me?") which (ultimately) ingratiates himself for real to Joffrey for giving his family a win.
Wasn't that what got LF a(nother) castle, and prime minister-ship (?) of the Vale? It's been so long since I've read the books.
The timeline in my mind is jumbled, but he got a chance to attempt to "comfort" Catelyn over Ned's troubles, too, didn't he?
Keep in mind, LF (and Lyssa) were instrumental in Jon Arryn's poisoning, which set the "Ned for Hand" events in motion so planting false evidence via inept assassin was probably planned before Bran ever caught Cersei/Jaime doing teh incest in the tower.
posted by porpoise at 7:25 PM on August 29, 2017
Also, that Bran could legit be a Lanister assasination target was an absolutely lucky break for LF.
The broad strokes plan was to get Ned to King's Landing - LF always had a thing for Cat and doing mischief to her husband (who she apparently loves) was a total bonus, but the plan was to get Ned to KL (during the changeover of government Jon Arynn was the best person to be hand, but Robert's BFF Ned is the obvious replacement).
At that point in time, LF had options: maybe he could marry Cat and get Winterfell, or barring that, keep stringing Lyssa along and settle for the Vale. Anyway, having the Starks and Lannisters fall out creates the chaos that LF could climb.
I can't remember, but was it LF who encouraged Robert to get super drunk (moreso than usual) before boar hunting?
Since its an open secret/rumour of Cersei/Jaime's incest, it probably wouldn't have been a huge deal that Bran found out - it probably would have been hushed up if he had not been discovered. but damn, Bran being crippled by Jaime was a massive stroke a good fortune for LF (at the time*).
Barring this event, someone else could have been targeted - perhaps it could have been Sansa and LF spreads rumours that she spurned Tyrion's advances or some such and the nasty little Imp over-reacted to being spurned (but the assassination attempt likely needed to have succeeded, but the assassin still caught). Would probably have a similar effect in getting Ned riled up and going after Tyrion, thus pissing off the Lanisters.
*if Bran wasn't crippled, would he have ended up being the three-eyed raven, and (likely in the books) the strongest case/evidence for LF's guilt?
posted by porpoise at 7:50 PM on August 29, 2017
The broad strokes plan was to get Ned to King's Landing - LF always had a thing for Cat and doing mischief to her husband (who she apparently loves) was a total bonus, but the plan was to get Ned to KL (during the changeover of government Jon Arynn was the best person to be hand, but Robert's BFF Ned is the obvious replacement).
At that point in time, LF had options: maybe he could marry Cat and get Winterfell, or barring that, keep stringing Lyssa along and settle for the Vale. Anyway, having the Starks and Lannisters fall out creates the chaos that LF could climb.
I can't remember, but was it LF who encouraged Robert to get super drunk (moreso than usual) before boar hunting?
Since its an open secret/rumour of Cersei/Jaime's incest, it probably wouldn't have been a huge deal that Bran found out - it probably would have been hushed up if he had not been discovered. but damn, Bran being crippled by Jaime was a massive stroke a good fortune for LF (at the time*).
Barring this event, someone else could have been targeted - perhaps it could have been Sansa and LF spreads rumours that she spurned Tyrion's advances or some such and the nasty little Imp over-reacted to being spurned (but the assassination attempt likely needed to have succeeded, but the assassin still caught). Would probably have a similar effect in getting Ned riled up and going after Tyrion, thus pissing off the Lanisters.
*if Bran wasn't crippled, would he have ended up being the three-eyed raven, and (likely in the books) the strongest case/evidence for LF's guilt?
posted by porpoise at 7:50 PM on August 29, 2017
by hiring an (incompetent) assassin who leaves the improbably fancy dagger behind and having it lead to Tyrion did get Ned to do something rash (order Tyrion abducted) - only for the "evidence" to be tainted/questionable gives the Lanisters reasonable justification for going after Ned (you abducted him without good evidence!).
I thought Tyrion's abduction was all Catelyn's doing, and could only happen because they chanced across each other at the inn. Ned copped to it when Jaimie confronted him, but he was lying to protect his wife.
Wasn't that what got LF a(nother) castle, and prime minister-ship (?) of the Vale? It's been so long since I've read the books.
That came later. It was after his status was elevated to Lord of Harrenhal, which was his reward for helping to create the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, that it became possible for him to propose to Lysa.
I can't remember, but was it LF who encouraged Robert to get super drunk (moreso than usual) before boar hunting?
No, I don't think he was involved. Robert got drunk during the hunt because Lancel kept pushing fortified wine at him, as Cersei had instructed him to do.
posted by homunculus at 8:30 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
I thought Tyrion's abduction was all Catelyn's doing, and could only happen because they chanced across each other at the inn. Ned copped to it when Jaimie confronted him, but he was lying to protect his wife.
Wasn't that what got LF a(nother) castle, and prime minister-ship (?) of the Vale? It's been so long since I've read the books.
That came later. It was after his status was elevated to Lord of Harrenhal, which was his reward for helping to create the Lannister/Tyrell alliance, that it became possible for him to propose to Lysa.
I can't remember, but was it LF who encouraged Robert to get super drunk (moreso than usual) before boar hunting?
No, I don't think he was involved. Robert got drunk during the hunt because Lancel kept pushing fortified wine at him, as Cersei had instructed him to do.
posted by homunculus at 8:30 PM on August 29, 2017 [1 favorite]
Wights, Lightbringer, and the prince who was promised might all lead to a tragic conclusion for Game Of Thrones
posted by homunculus at 8:31 PM on August 29, 2017
posted by homunculus at 8:31 PM on August 29, 2017
Ask the Maester: Why Is Jon the Heir to the Iron Throne? And what does his parentage mean for Season 8?
posted by homunculus at 10:29 PM on August 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 10:29 PM on August 29, 2017 [2 favorites]
Crazy theory: Bran is the Night King, and he's bringing his army South to protect the Starks from Cersei.
posted by drezdn at 9:53 AM on August 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by drezdn at 9:53 AM on August 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
From the AV Club link, speculating on what might happen if Jon is Azor Ahai:
But he’ll need his own Lightbringer, a living sword of fire forged in the heart of the woman he loves. That’s why he will have to temper it in a woman who is fire herself, Daenerys Targaryen. Her soul and the blood of the dragon will become one with the steel, and it will be that sword that Jon uses to kill the Night King and save mankind forever.
If that does turn out to be the case I hope there's something in Missandei's correction of the prophesy to make clear that the prince who was promised could be male or female.
posted by roolya_boolya at 10:54 AM on August 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
But he’ll need his own Lightbringer, a living sword of fire forged in the heart of the woman he loves. That’s why he will have to temper it in a woman who is fire herself, Daenerys Targaryen. Her soul and the blood of the dragon will become one with the steel, and it will be that sword that Jon uses to kill the Night King and save mankind forever.
If that does turn out to be the case I hope there's something in Missandei's correction of the prophesy to make clear that the prince who was promised could be male or female.
posted by roolya_boolya at 10:54 AM on August 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Azor Ahai prophecy has received too little attention in the TV series for that to be where they're going. It would come out of nowhere for most people.
posted by Justinian at 11:11 AM on August 30, 2017
posted by Justinian at 11:11 AM on August 30, 2017
Ser Davos: Your Grace, uh... why are you covered in blood, and what's that sword you've got?
Jon: It's Lightbringer, reforged, and tempered in the blood of my love, the Queen. But I had no other choice, we must kill the Night King!
Ser Davos: ... Uhm ... Doesn't your Valaryian sword kill White Walkers? You've killed like three with it already?
Jon: Yes, but that sword didn't light up.
posted by skewed at 11:34 AM on August 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
Jon: It's Lightbringer, reforged, and tempered in the blood of my love, the Queen.
Ser Davos: ... Uhm ... Doesn't your Valaryian sword kill White Walkers? You've killed like three with it already?
Jon: Yes, but that sword didn't light up.
posted by skewed at 11:34 AM on August 30, 2017 [13 favorites]
The Azor Ahai prophecy has received too little attention in the TV series for that to be where they're going. It would come out of nowhere for most people.
It received some attention, though. If those scenes with Stannis and Melisandre start showing up in the "Previously On" segments it will be time to place your bets. Bringing Dany all this way to get stabbed would be pretty dumb, though. Better ideas include Dany stabbing Jon, Dany stabbing a dragon, or if GRRM really wanted to upend Tolkien then Jon has to stab Sam.
posted by Gary at 1:22 PM on August 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
It received some attention, though. If those scenes with Stannis and Melisandre start showing up in the "Previously On" segments it will be time to place your bets. Bringing Dany all this way to get stabbed would be pretty dumb, though. Better ideas include Dany stabbing Jon, Dany stabbing a dragon, or if GRRM really wanted to upend Tolkien then Jon has to stab Sam.
posted by Gary at 1:22 PM on August 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I was going to make some joke about how hacky and stupid it would be if they made Dany pregnant before they kill her off, but then remembered they did that already.
posted by Gary at 1:34 PM on August 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by Gary at 1:34 PM on August 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
For no damn reason too, because in the book there's a conspiracy involving moon tea.
posted by corb at 1:42 PM on August 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by corb at 1:42 PM on August 30, 2017 [2 favorites]
Jon: Yes, but that sword didn't light up.
Since Jon was resurrected by R'hllor like Beric was, I wonder if he could also set his sword on fire with his blood the way Beric does.
posted by homunculus at 2:53 PM on August 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Since Jon was resurrected by R'hllor like Beric was, I wonder if he could also set his sword on fire with his blood the way Beric does.
posted by homunculus at 2:53 PM on August 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
I am of the opinion the Jamie Lannister will end up being Azor Ahai reborn - assuming the Kingslayer, Queenslays his sister.
posted by axismundi at 3:16 PM on August 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by axismundi at 3:16 PM on August 30, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think you can handwave Arya killing Littlefinger as Sansa sort of following Ned's rule about the person who passes judgement needing to be the one who swings the sword.
Arya is Sansa's Hand.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:51 PM on August 30, 2017 [8 favorites]
Arya is Sansa's Hand.
posted by ricochet biscuit at 4:51 PM on August 30, 2017 [8 favorites]
This is more show canon than books, but was Jon raised by R'hllor? Maybe Starks just magically get raised when they're in the vicinity of the wall. Maybe his resurrection didn't have anything to do with Melisandre.
It doesn't seem fair that Targaryens get special powers but other houses don't.
Greyjoys should be immune to drowning. Or Sharks,
Starks should be immune to freezing. (Maybe Jon is.)
Tyrell's should be immune to pollen allergies.
Martells should be immune to that annoying thing when your feet are covered by sand at the beach, but if you try to wash them off, they'll just get wet and then get even sandier.
posted by Telf at 5:11 PM on August 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
It doesn't seem fair that Targaryens get special powers but other houses don't.
Greyjoys should be immune to drowning. Or Sharks,
Starks should be immune to freezing. (Maybe Jon is.)
Tyrell's should be immune to pollen allergies.
Martells should be immune to that annoying thing when your feet are covered by sand at the beach, but if you try to wash them off, they'll just get wet and then get even sandier.
posted by Telf at 5:11 PM on August 30, 2017 [14 favorites]
It doesn't seem fair that Targaryens get special powers but other houses don't.
The Starks are wargs, and follow the Old Gods who do seem to have real power. Ironborn follow the Drowned God, but I'm not clear if that resurrection from drowning is a real thing or medieval CPR.
Most of the other houses are Andals, and I don't think we've seen any real magic / miracles from the Faith of the Seven? They seem to have gotten the short end of the stick. Their religion has lots of ceremony and tradition while everyone else is riding dragons, raising the dead, and being greenseers.
posted by Gary at 5:34 PM on August 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
The Starks are wargs, and follow the Old Gods who do seem to have real power. Ironborn follow the Drowned God, but I'm not clear if that resurrection from drowning is a real thing or medieval CPR.
Most of the other houses are Andals, and I don't think we've seen any real magic / miracles from the Faith of the Seven? They seem to have gotten the short end of the stick. Their religion has lots of ceremony and tradition while everyone else is riding dragons, raising the dead, and being greenseers.
posted by Gary at 5:34 PM on August 30, 2017 [5 favorites]
Excellent points Gary, I see you've put more thought into this than I have.
It's one of the thing that always bothered me about religions in D&D. If the gods actively give you observable powers, why not be religious? Also, why not follow a religion if it gives you tangible benefits? Obviously this world model requires more of a pantheon of gods vying for influence.
But yeah, the Seven seem like a real booby prize of religions at this point. I know there have been theories of this somehow coming together: Gendry as the Smith, Arya/Hound as the Stranger, Brienne as the maid etc etc. Maybe it'll become relevant, but it does seem like The Lord of Light is really pulling the cool party tricks at this point.
My book memory is hazy at this point, but did Beric eventually die? I remember the resurrection process being incredibly draining. He was incredibly gaunt and and skeletal by the end. Possibly cold all the time? I can't remember exactly, but you got the impression that things were much darker than depicted on the show.
Beric in the show has become a dashing, eye-patched optimist. There doesn't seem to be a downside to his resurrections.
posted by Telf at 6:56 PM on August 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
It's one of the thing that always bothered me about religions in D&D. If the gods actively give you observable powers, why not be religious? Also, why not follow a religion if it gives you tangible benefits? Obviously this world model requires more of a pantheon of gods vying for influence.
But yeah, the Seven seem like a real booby prize of religions at this point. I know there have been theories of this somehow coming together: Gendry as the Smith, Arya/Hound as the Stranger, Brienne as the maid etc etc. Maybe it'll become relevant, but it does seem like The Lord of Light is really pulling the cool party tricks at this point.
My book memory is hazy at this point, but did Beric eventually die? I remember the resurrection process being incredibly draining. He was incredibly gaunt and and skeletal by the end. Possibly cold all the time? I can't remember exactly, but you got the impression that things were much darker than depicted on the show.
Beric in the show has become a dashing, eye-patched optimist. There doesn't seem to be a downside to his resurrections.
posted by Telf at 6:56 PM on August 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
There is reason to believe Jon is only alive because he warged into Ghost at the time of his death.
posted by corb at 7:03 PM on August 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by corb at 7:03 PM on August 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
My book memory is hazy at this point, but did Beric eventually die?
Yeah, after the Red Wedding the BWB found Catelyn's corpse and Beric passed on his gift of life to her, transforming her into Lady Stoneheart. LS isn't on the show, but I keep expecting Beric to pass his gift on to someone else eventually.
posted by homunculus at 9:30 PM on August 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, after the Red Wedding the BWB found Catelyn's corpse and Beric passed on his gift of life to her, transforming her into Lady Stoneheart. LS isn't on the show, but I keep expecting Beric to pass his gift on to someone else eventually.
posted by homunculus at 9:30 PM on August 30, 2017 [1 favorite]
Yeah, not having Lady Stoneheart in the Show was really disappointing. May be one of very very very few reasons why I might peruse the books, if they ever come out.
Other than hate reading and compare/contrast w/Show.
I'd never pay money to do so, though - I bought (2nd hand) to the 3rd book, bought 4 in (new) hardcover, and stopped. Straight up pirated 5 and was still disappointed. Probably pick up 6 from the Library, if they deign to stock a copy.
posted by porpoise at 10:17 PM on August 30, 2017
Other than hate reading and compare/contrast w/Show.
I'd never pay money to do so, though - I bought (2nd hand) to the 3rd book, bought 4 in (new) hardcover, and stopped. Straight up pirated 5 and was still disappointed. Probably pick up 6 from the Library, if they deign to stock a copy.
posted by porpoise at 10:17 PM on August 30, 2017
Having Dany kill Jon to become Azor Ahai could work
It would give more weight to Missandei's "well actually" line about male vs female translations. It also aligns with Jon's conversation with Berric about what purpose do they serve for being kept alive if Jon's purpose is just so Dany can kill kim. Melisandre can come back and realise she's wrong AGAIN and it's actually Dany not Jon who fulfills the prophecy, although it makes sense why she thought she was right because Jon still plays a critical role. And if Berric is alive on the show unlike the books maybe he gives up his life to bring Jon to life again again.
posted by like_neon at 6:20 AM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
It would give more weight to Missandei's "well actually" line about male vs female translations. It also aligns with Jon's conversation with Berric about what purpose do they serve for being kept alive if Jon's purpose is just so Dany can kill kim. Melisandre can come back and realise she's wrong AGAIN and it's actually Dany not Jon who fulfills the prophecy, although it makes sense why she thought she was right because Jon still plays a critical role. And if Berric is alive on the show unlike the books maybe he gives up his life to bring Jon to life again again.
posted by like_neon at 6:20 AM on August 31, 2017 [4 favorites]
I'm still holding out hope that "Valonquar" is also genderless in Valyrian, and that it will be Arya who kills Cersei.
posted by Shohn at 2:52 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Shohn at 2:52 PM on August 31, 2017 [5 favorites]
No matter who kills Cersei, just tell yourself it was Arya wearing their face as a mask.
posted by Gary at 10:06 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Gary at 10:06 PM on August 31, 2017 [3 favorites]
Most of the other houses are Andals, and I don't think we've seen any real magic / miracles from the Faith of the Seven? They seem to have gotten the short end of the stick.
Isn't that deliberate on the part of the Maesters? They're trying to get rid of magic entirely and the relatively new Faith of the Seven is part of that?
posted by Justinian at 3:00 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
Isn't that deliberate on the part of the Maesters? They're trying to get rid of magic entirely and the relatively new Faith of the Seven is part of that?
posted by Justinian at 3:00 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I don't remember the descriptions of stone men's disease much from the books, but I wonder if it could be related to tree bark disease (not for the weak of stomach). As someone with psorasis I keep an eye out for similar diseases (though tree bark seems to be a specific rare reaction to an infection).
posted by tilde at 3:32 PM on September 1, 2017
posted by tilde at 3:32 PM on September 1, 2017
Isn't that deliberate on the part of the Maesters? They're trying to get rid of magic entirely and the relatively new Faith of the Seven is part of that?
From what I can gather, the Maesters were in Westeros before the Andals invaded, while the Faith of the Seven came to Westeros with the Andals a few thousand years ago. That said, it does help the Maesters' conspiracy against magic to promote the one religion that doesn't appear to have any magic.
It's been a while since I listened to the World of Ice and Fire audiobook, but it goes into how the Andals and the Rhoynar got to Westeros. I nitpick a lot of things about the books but the world building behind them is really fascinating.
posted by Gary at 4:55 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
From what I can gather, the Maesters were in Westeros before the Andals invaded, while the Faith of the Seven came to Westeros with the Andals a few thousand years ago. That said, it does help the Maesters' conspiracy against magic to promote the one religion that doesn't appear to have any magic.
It's been a while since I listened to the World of Ice and Fire audiobook, but it goes into how the Andals and the Rhoynar got to Westeros. I nitpick a lot of things about the books but the world building behind them is really fascinating.
posted by Gary at 4:55 PM on September 1, 2017 [1 favorite]
I think the FotS is fundamentaly anti-magic. I think I remember reading (The World of Ice & Fire maybe) that when the Andals were appalled by the magic of Those who sing the song of earth because their religion viewed it as sacrilegious.
I really don't see why the Rhoynar don't worship R'hllor instead, it'd be a better fit for them. Maybe they'll convert now.
posted by homunculus at 5:51 PM on September 1, 2017
I really don't see why the Rhoynar don't worship R'hllor instead, it'd be a better fit for them. Maybe they'll convert now.
posted by homunculus at 5:51 PM on September 1, 2017
Re-watching the episode "kill the boy". I wonder if Stonemen can become zombies? You know Ice zombies or whatever this dudes are north of the wall.
posted by tilde at 5:28 AM on September 22, 2017
posted by tilde at 5:28 AM on September 22, 2017
Assume Theon didn't just have his penis removed. Assume he endured many additional horrors to his crotch and anus, including those that might destroy nerve reception (white hot firey pain in excess, probz).
Cersei is not super worried about the Night King. She is no stranger to the domination of animated corpses, and she is a wiz when it comes to dragon fire. She is also very excited to learn that maybe she doesn't need to become a corpsy smelly red-eyed Gregor monster to eliminate physical and psychological pain. Get to work, Qyburgler! Also, Joffery was her father's son, and Tommen was Jamie's.
Yara will be queen of the 7 kingdoms after Arya assassinates Cersei with the help of Euron's face.
Bran will mind flay both the undead dragon and the Night King by pulling the magic out of the wall and into Nymeria. The Night King's ascension was enabled by the long and temperate summer. Bran will fly him/self to the coldest point beyond the wall and (with the help of the long and cold winter) return him to his snoozy/algor mortis/hibernation state. This will make Cersei very angry, she wanted to sexy time the Night King, but she dies soon anyway, and Qyburgler puts her fresh corpse into his own version of cryo-freeze.
Dany and her heir will die in childbirth. The Targs are genetically bad at baby making (is Tyrion a Targ too?!).
posted by Brocktoon at 4:23 AM on October 15, 2017
Cersei is not super worried about the Night King. She is no stranger to the domination of animated corpses, and she is a wiz when it comes to dragon fire. She is also very excited to learn that maybe she doesn't need to become a corpsy smelly red-eyed Gregor monster to eliminate physical and psychological pain. Get to work, Qyburgler! Also, Joffery was her father's son, and Tommen was Jamie's.
Yara will be queen of the 7 kingdoms after Arya assassinates Cersei with the help of Euron's face.
Bran will mind flay both the undead dragon and the Night King by pulling the magic out of the wall and into Nymeria. The Night King's ascension was enabled by the long and temperate summer. Bran will fly him/self to the coldest point beyond the wall and (with the help of the long and cold winter) return him to his snoozy/algor mortis/hibernation state. This will make Cersei very angry, she wanted to sexy time the Night King, but she dies soon anyway, and Qyburgler puts her fresh corpse into his own version of cryo-freeze.
Dany and her heir will die in childbirth. The Targs are genetically bad at baby making (is Tyrion a Targ too?!).
posted by Brocktoon at 4:23 AM on October 15, 2017
Hi, it's Feb 3, 2019, and Game of Thrones has partnered with Bud Light to produce a series of Superbowl ads which include explicit reuse of the GET HYPE Klegane bowl stuff which would be forgivable if THEY HAD NEVER AIRED. Fuck you, Bud Light. Fuck you, Game of Thrones. We are actually in the Idiocracy timeline, i guess. Why the fuck did I even put the game on?
posted by mwhybark at 4:26 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
posted by mwhybark at 4:26 PM on February 3, 2019 [2 favorites]
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And from last week's capture of the damned thing ... the Westerosi Seven and redshirts were fighting a small group of undead. They were whacking them individually until someone got a good (magical) hit on what was the leader of all of them EXCEPT THE ONE THEY SUBDUED. So ... doesn't that mean if they take out the main undead the peons all fall?
After all the switchbacks this week, I'm damn sure Cersi is not pregnant.
posted by tilde at 12:40 AM on August 28, 2017