The Good Place: Chapter 15
September 20, 2017 8:04 PM - Season 2, Episode 1 - Subscribe
Everything is great!
After Michael erases their memories, Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani and Jason find themselves in the Good Place again, but Eleanor finds a clue she left for herself and tries to put everything together.
After Michael erases their memories, Eleanor, Chidi, Tahani and Jason find themselves in the Good Place again, but Eleanor finds a clue she left for herself and tries to put everything together.
They can hard reset the show every episode, if they need to. Michael just keeps digging a hole
I love the background demon discussions.
I suspect that Michael's giant reel-to-reel conspicuously recording during his observations is a Chekov's gun just waiting to go off.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:33 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
I love the background demon discussions.
I suspect that Michael's giant reel-to-reel conspicuously recording during his observations is a Chekov's gun just waiting to go off.
posted by leotrotsky at 8:33 PM on September 20, 2017 [2 favorites]
The way Jason's face lit up when he saw Janet at the party - I ship those two goofballs so hard.
posted by oh yeah! at 8:42 PM on September 20, 2017 [41 favorites]
posted by oh yeah! at 8:42 PM on September 20, 2017 [41 favorites]
Diva Vicky is my everything (yes, yes, yes, I look forward to the chaos she will be causing!), as is Jason and Janet immediately falling into friendship.
Michael is clearly the one being tortured the most here.
Also, I would like to register my disappointment re: the aspersion cast against Hawaiian pizza.
posted by mixedmetaphors at 8:46 PM on September 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
Michael is clearly the one being tortured the most here.
Also, I would like to register my disappointment re: the aspersion cast against Hawaiian pizza.
posted by mixedmetaphors at 8:46 PM on September 20, 2017 [14 favorites]
I liked how high the threat level was all episode. Interested to see how that's handled the rest of the season.
Interesting choice to switch Elanor's slapstick with Tahani (I'm assuming we're dropping bEleanor, since bad El = real El, and "real El" was just a demon?).
Would be more supportive if William Jackson Harper and Manny Jacinto switched roles as well. As is, I feel sorry for Jameela Jamil unless she's trying for a comical career entry.
Tiya Sircar's "real El" looks primed to be important, but I think that (Bell's) El's going to own her.
posted by porpoise at 10:59 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
Interesting choice to switch Elanor's slapstick with Tahani (I'm assuming we're dropping bEleanor, since bad El = real El, and "real El" was just a demon?).
Would be more supportive if William Jackson Harper and Manny Jacinto switched roles as well. As is, I feel sorry for Jameela Jamil unless she's trying for a comical career entry.
Tiya Sircar's "real El" looks primed to be important, but I think that (Bell's) El's going to own her.
posted by porpoise at 10:59 PM on September 20, 2017 [1 favorite]
This episode was positively madcap! I loved it and loved how it built on the world they built in the first season.
posted by Carillon at 11:00 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by Carillon at 11:00 PM on September 20, 2017 [4 favorites]
Michael is clearly the one being tortured the most here.
The competence of his minions does seem to have fallen drastically this season.
It was nice to see the reset happen so quickly instead of trying to drag out the mystery. It will be fun seeing Michael try to hold together 3.0 with an impatient staff, Vicky's aspirations, and some overplaying on his part. He was trying to torture them too much too fast with Chidi's soul mate fakeout, Jason's ironic punishment bud hole, and everything that happened to Tahani. Although I loved the garbageman from Winnipeg with matching cargo pants and crocs.
posted by Gary at 12:00 AM on September 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
The competence of his minions does seem to have fallen drastically this season.
It was nice to see the reset happen so quickly instead of trying to drag out the mystery. It will be fun seeing Michael try to hold together 3.0 with an impatient staff, Vicky's aspirations, and some overplaying on his part. He was trying to torture them too much too fast with Chidi's soul mate fakeout, Jason's ironic punishment bud hole, and everything that happened to Tahani. Although I loved the garbageman from Winnipeg with matching cargo pants and crocs.
posted by Gary at 12:00 AM on September 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
Michael is clearly the one being tortured the most here.
That's what hit me too. The human gang is just somewhere between puzzled, confused, and annoyed as they figure out what's going on, while he's fighting for his existence. 2.0 went so quickly that they didn't get to torture each other.
Last season was so perfect, and tonight was kind of a stakes-raising reset to start everything up again (and again). I'm so curious to see where this goes, and so irritated I can't binge it like I did the first season.
posted by zachlipton at 2:56 AM on September 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
That's what hit me too. The human gang is just somewhere between puzzled, confused, and annoyed as they figure out what's going on, while he's fighting for his existence. 2.0 went so quickly that they didn't get to torture each other.
Last season was so perfect, and tonight was kind of a stakes-raising reset to start everything up again (and again). I'm so curious to see where this goes, and so irritated I can't binge it like I did the first season.
posted by zachlipton at 2:56 AM on September 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
Michael is clearly the one being tortured the most here.
I feel like that's too obvious at this point to be the real twist. On the other hand, we pretty much all figured out "This isn't really The Good Place" early on last season, but they still twisted it in a sufficiently different direction that worked.
The competence of his minions does seem to have fallen drastically this season.
I think it wasn't their competence but their enthusiasm that's fallen drastically. They signed on for a Bold New Initiative in TGP 1.0, and that carried a lot of them past their reflexive "Why can't I bite them?" reactions. But now they've seen that Michael's thousand-year plan lasted approximately one ten-thousandth of that, and they're starting to rebel themselves.
Plus there's a lot more heavy lifting required of a lot of them -- in TGP 1.0, only "real" Eleanor was particularly engaged with the Big Four directly, while now there are four soulmates, plus Chidi's false soulmate and her soulmate.
All in all, to be honest, TGP 2.0 didn't really grab me. But I believe that TGP 2.1 will make up for it.
posted by Etrigan at 3:38 AM on September 21, 2017 [9 favorites]
I feel like that's too obvious at this point to be the real twist. On the other hand, we pretty much all figured out "This isn't really The Good Place" early on last season, but they still twisted it in a sufficiently different direction that worked.
The competence of his minions does seem to have fallen drastically this season.
I think it wasn't their competence but their enthusiasm that's fallen drastically. They signed on for a Bold New Initiative in TGP 1.0, and that carried a lot of them past their reflexive "Why can't I bite them?" reactions. But now they've seen that Michael's thousand-year plan lasted approximately one ten-thousandth of that, and they're starting to rebel themselves.
Plus there's a lot more heavy lifting required of a lot of them -- in TGP 1.0, only "real" Eleanor was particularly engaged with the Big Four directly, while now there are four soulmates, plus Chidi's false soulmate and her soulmate.
All in all, to be honest, TGP 2.0 didn't really grab me. But I believe that TGP 2.1 will make up for it.
posted by Etrigan at 3:38 AM on September 21, 2017 [9 favorites]
I had the disturbing realization last night that it's actually in Eleanor/Chidi/Tahani/Jason 's long-term best interests that Michael is successful. If he fails, then they're damned to an eternity of physical torment.*
Presenting a good front to Shawn benefits them all; I wonder anyone will realize that and make a mutually beneficial agreement.
* barring the possibility that their actions in the show earn them some kind of reward/reprieve.
posted by cheshyre at 6:38 AM on September 21, 2017 [24 favorites]
Presenting a good front to Shawn benefits them all; I wonder anyone will realize that and make a mutually beneficial agreement.
* barring the possibility that their actions in the show earn them some kind of reward/reprieve.
posted by cheshyre at 6:38 AM on September 21, 2017 [24 favorites]
Exactly, cheshyre, and they're going to suss this out via Chekov's reel-to-reel.
posted by whuppy at 7:03 AM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by whuppy at 7:03 AM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Wait, before we talk about this anymore, I gotta get to the gym.
posted by Etrigan at 7:12 AM on September 21, 2017 [57 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 7:12 AM on September 21, 2017 [57 favorites]
Michael Schur interview.
I love how now TV is so smart that this kind of thing is wrapped up in 1 hour rather than an entire season. Good job, y'all! Loved the sulking demons, and poor Jianyu being stalked by his soulmate, and playing up the indecision with Chidi again, and Eleanor's getting suspicious of them all using the same dialogue, and Tahani's torture was the worst of all!
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:16 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
I love how now TV is so smart that this kind of thing is wrapped up in 1 hour rather than an entire season. Good job, y'all! Loved the sulking demons, and poor Jianyu being stalked by his soulmate, and playing up the indecision with Chidi again, and Eleanor's getting suspicious of them all using the same dialogue, and Tahani's torture was the worst of all!
posted by jenfullmoon at 7:16 AM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
poor Jianyu being stalked by his soulmate
That actor who plays the soulmate, Hayden Szeto, was so funny in The Edge of Seventeen, I really hope he has a big part this season, because he is fantastic.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:23 AM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
That actor who plays the soulmate, Hayden Szeto, was so funny in The Edge of Seventeen, I really hope he has a big part this season, because he is fantastic.
posted by everybody had matching towels at 7:23 AM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
Also, I would like to register my disappointment re: the aspersion cast against Hawaiian pizza.
I love Michael Schur's creative work, but his opinions on warm fruit are upsetting and wrong.
Punishing Chidi by giving him an incredibly easy choice and then torturing him by taking it away was great. I am so pleased that we're getting more backstage demon time this year. Parks & Rec had so many great townspeople, that I see the Neighborhood demons like those kind of characters, and the writing team is good at fleshing out those minor characters.
Janet is some kind of key to their survival too. She decided to bring Jason to the rest of the group because she knows that they're all humans. Please don't search in her mouth any more though.
posted by gladly at 7:27 AM on September 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
I love Michael Schur's creative work, but his opinions on warm fruit are upsetting and wrong.
Punishing Chidi by giving him an incredibly easy choice and then torturing him by taking it away was great. I am so pleased that we're getting more backstage demon time this year. Parks & Rec had so many great townspeople, that I see the Neighborhood demons like those kind of characters, and the writing team is good at fleshing out those minor characters.
Janet is some kind of key to their survival too. She decided to bring Jason to the rest of the group because she knows that they're all humans. Please don't search in her mouth any more though.
posted by gladly at 7:27 AM on September 21, 2017 [8 favorites]
Something I really love is that Eleanor really seems to thrive in this environment: instead of being bored and mean, she's (in season 1) trying to be a better person and (this episode) trying to figure everything out and so focused on that she declined drinks at the party.
posted by jeweled accumulation at 8:04 AM on September 21, 2017 [25 favorites]
posted by jeweled accumulation at 8:04 AM on September 21, 2017 [25 favorites]
I find myself so protective of the humans, like, guys, come on, none of them are that bad, they all have pretty good reasons to be messed up, AND they're all genuinely endearing. Eleanor's right about the medium place.
And Ted Danson is a goddamn delight.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:30 AM on September 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
And Ted Danson is a goddamn delight.
posted by schadenfrau at 10:30 AM on September 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
"Wait. We can bite them?"
posted by Faintdreams at 12:32 PM on September 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by Faintdreams at 12:32 PM on September 21, 2017 [6 favorites]
Michael's boss mentioned that "there won't be a 3.0", which I interpret as Michael will need the humans' buy in to keep the sham up for the rest of season, rather than endless reboots. If this season follows the same beats of last season, I could see them agreeing to help in the 5th or 6th episode, then shenanigans with the Boss coming by, and maybe another visit to the Medium Place or actual Good/Bad places, possibly with another reboot at the end of the season, or another twist! (They all get "redeemed" and sent to separate Good Places, and next season is them trying to get back together?)
We had several laugh out loud parts, and I thought interweaving each origin story was done really well.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 12:50 PM on September 21, 2017 [7 favorites]
We had several laugh out loud parts, and I thought interweaving each origin story was done really well.
posted by Hermeowne Grangepurr at 12:50 PM on September 21, 2017 [7 favorites]
I really liked it -- clearly Michael can reset memories, but not personality growth (not wholly). I would like to see how v 3 works -- he can't make them so miserable quite so quickly, and Janet is a weird wildcard.
posted by jeather at 1:46 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by jeather at 1:46 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
The Smirnoff commercial with Ted Danson followed by the Verizon commercial with Marc Evan Jackson was a pretty great move on the part of the programmers.
posted by Small Dollar at 5:13 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by Small Dollar at 5:13 PM on September 21, 2017 [3 favorites]
It's interesting that because they have to be so committed to the Good Place, the Janet is programmed to think she's working for a Good Place, such that she brings Jason so the humans because that would make him feel less lonely. You would think that they would program her to not do everything the humans ask if it leads to them figuring out the ruse.
posted by numaner at 10:13 PM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by numaner at 10:13 PM on September 21, 2017 [2 favorites]
Aww, I really really wanted the note to slowly build to a permanent takedown of Michael. I guess Kristen Bell only gets to play detective for one episode.
posted by Monochrome at 10:37 PM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by Monochrome at 10:37 PM on September 21, 2017 [1 favorite]
Eleanor: handsome soulmate, freaky clown house, but otherwise it should seem like The Good Place to her (with her main torture being that she doesn't belong).
Chidi: presumably same home, but his torture feels more overt in forcing a choice for him, particularly when the Architect knows how hard he finds choice to be.
Jason: his torture (forced silence and solitude with a silent guardian) is also overt, but at least in line with his mistaken identity.
Tahani: her torture is also more overt, given that Michael is aware of her love of wealth and tasteful objects.
It seems like both Chidi and Tahani could have understood much more quickly than Eleanor and Jason that they were in the wrong place. If Eleanor hadn't been given the note, I suspect Tahani would be the first to crack and discover the truth. Chidi is too polite and self-effacing to believe he's being deliberately tortured, but Tahani would eventually recognise torture by a thousand tiny cuts (especially the self-portrait of her sister in pride of place and her soulmate's fanboy reaction).
I want to see an episode or season with Tahani in the driver's seat. She would be hilarious in a position of power.
posted by tracicle at 2:48 AM on September 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
Chidi: presumably same home, but his torture feels more overt in forcing a choice for him, particularly when the Architect knows how hard he finds choice to be.
Jason: his torture (forced silence and solitude with a silent guardian) is also overt, but at least in line with his mistaken identity.
Tahani: her torture is also more overt, given that Michael is aware of her love of wealth and tasteful objects.
It seems like both Chidi and Tahani could have understood much more quickly than Eleanor and Jason that they were in the wrong place. If Eleanor hadn't been given the note, I suspect Tahani would be the first to crack and discover the truth. Chidi is too polite and self-effacing to believe he's being deliberately tortured, but Tahani would eventually recognise torture by a thousand tiny cuts (especially the self-portrait of her sister in pride of place and her soulmate's fanboy reaction).
I want to see an episode or season with Tahani in the driver's seat. She would be hilarious in a position of power.
posted by tracicle at 2:48 AM on September 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
It's interesting that because they have to be so committed to the Good Place, the Janet is programmed to think she's working for a Good Place, such that she brings Jason so the humans because that would make him feel less lonely. You would think that they would program her to not do everything the humans ask if it leads to them figuring out the ruse.
I kinda had the sense from season1, after it had played out, that Janet really is a function of the Larger System and that the demon-oids don't have full control of her.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:01 AM on September 22, 2017 [10 favorites]
I kinda had the sense from season1, after it had played out, that Janet really is a function of the Larger System and that the demon-oids don't have full control of her.
posted by ROU_Xenophobe at 6:01 AM on September 22, 2017 [10 favorites]
I think they can only reboot Janet but not change her.
I loved Kristen Bell's delivery on, "How can I say no? Can I say no? It doesn't feel like I can say no, but if I can say no, Michael, I'm saying no!"
posted by gladly at 6:31 AM on September 22, 2017 [16 favorites]
I loved Kristen Bell's delivery on, "How can I say no? Can I say no? It doesn't feel like I can say no, but if I can say no, Michael, I'm saying no!"
posted by gladly at 6:31 AM on September 22, 2017 [16 favorites]
I kinda had the sense from season1, after it had played out, that Janet really is a function of the Larger System and that the demon-oids don't have full control of her.
Per Schur:
Per Schur:
The key about Janet is that [Michael] does not “control” her. She is just part of every afterlife Neighborhood. One analogy we used internally: Janet is to the afterlife as Clippy the Paperclip (or whatever it’s called) is to Microsoft Word — it’s just there when you turn on the program.posted by Etrigan at 6:34 AM on September 22, 2017 [9 favorites]
It's interesting to me that, assuming the flashbacks into the human characters' pasts are finished, that on-screen character growth is going to have to come from changes as these resets happen. I am very curious to see how that plays out, because Michael is obviously not great at what he is doing and the resets are probably going to have to come thick and fast, at least until the show turns into Eleanor and Co. trying to protect the kinda-OK thing they have going so they don't end up with the penis flatteners and butthole spiders.
posted by minsies at 8:06 AM on September 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by minsies at 8:06 AM on September 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
I think Michael says at the meeting where he introduces his Good Place plan that he stole an actual good place Janet so that may be what we're seeing now.
I gasped when Chidi said he couldn't help Elanor when she finally found him.
posted by Uncle at 10:40 AM on September 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
I gasped when Chidi said he couldn't help Elanor when she finally found him.
posted by Uncle at 10:40 AM on September 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
trying to protect the kinda-OK thing they have going so they don't end up with the penis flatteners and butthole spiders.
After a series of close calls, they pull this off to such an extent that all Bad Place torture is retired and replaced with fake Good Place torture. For their service of moving so many souls from excruciating torture to merely incompetent quasi-torture all four find themselves transferred to the actual Good Place. #newtwist
posted by mikepop at 11:46 AM on September 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
After a series of close calls, they pull this off to such an extent that all Bad Place torture is retired and replaced with fake Good Place torture. For their service of moving so many souls from excruciating torture to merely incompetent quasi-torture all four find themselves transferred to the actual Good Place. #newtwist
posted by mikepop at 11:46 AM on September 22, 2017 [3 favorites]
Have we even established that there really is a Good Place?
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:59 AM on September 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by paper chromatographologist at 11:59 AM on September 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
In the Medium Place, which is established as real, don't they show a tape with a representative from The Good Place?
posted by mikepop at 12:05 PM on September 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by mikepop at 12:05 PM on September 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
S3 or S4 of this story has got to start with them being bored as shit in The Actual Good Place.
posted by Etrigan at 12:09 PM on September 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by Etrigan at 12:09 PM on September 22, 2017 [5 favorites]
Michael's a devil. Or a demon. Something of that nature. But he's not Satan.
posted by Ipsifendus at 2:47 PM on September 22, 2017
posted by Ipsifendus at 2:47 PM on September 22, 2017
I think Jason's right, it's a prank show. A prank show for the people who run the Places (Good and Bad). Michael is one of the people being punk'd.
posted by lovecrafty at 2:51 PM on September 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
posted by lovecrafty at 2:51 PM on September 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
Michael is literally torturing everyone, from the main characters, to the "actors" who are supposed to be in on it, to the judge who just wants this little experiment to be over. Even the name Michael means "who is like God?"
Michael is the Devil.
posted by guiseroom at 3:05 PM on September 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
Michael is the Devil.
posted by guiseroom at 3:05 PM on September 22, 2017 [2 favorites]
At 13:59 paper chromatographologist wrote:
Have we even established that there really is a Good Place?
Yes, in the season one finale, Michael bragged about stealing a Good Place Janet in the meeting where he was initially pitching his plan to Sean.
posted by thedward at 4:19 PM on September 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
Have we even established that there really is a Good Place?
Yes, in the season one finale, Michael bragged about stealing a Good Place Janet in the meeting where he was initially pitching his plan to Sean.
posted by thedward at 4:19 PM on September 22, 2017 [4 favorites]
Janet is the absolute best — and just might be the key to everything:
We can't trust anything Michael says whens he's 'in character', but in the season two premiere when he says to Jason "This is Janet, she can get you literally anything you want. All you have to do is ask.", Janet nods in agreement.
What should they ask her for?
posted by thedward at 5:01 PM on September 22, 2017 [8 favorites]
Okay, I've hacked into the mainframe.She said this when she was hijacking the train — this implies that the train system is under her control and that her authority extends beyond the neighborhood.
Kidding. I can't hack into the mainframe.
Technically, I am the mainframe.
— Janet ( Chapter 11 — What's my Motivation?)
[empahis mine]
We can't trust anything Michael says whens he's 'in character', but in the season two premiere when he says to Jason "This is Janet, she can get you literally anything you want. All you have to do is ask.", Janet nods in agreement.
What should they ask her for?
posted by thedward at 5:01 PM on September 22, 2017 [8 favorites]
This was just as funny as before. Carry on.
posted by kevinbelt at 6:20 PM on September 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by kevinbelt at 6:20 PM on September 22, 2017 [1 favorite]
Can they just ask Janet to make them a 7/8's Place and keep Michael and Sean out?
posted by sammyo at 7:01 PM on September 22, 2017
posted by sammyo at 7:01 PM on September 22, 2017
My current theory: Janet is God
posted by DowBits at 7:39 PM on September 22, 2017 [11 favorites]
posted by DowBits at 7:39 PM on September 22, 2017 [11 favorites]
In the train episode, Janet also says that she's engaged a ride or die protocol making her loyal to Jason FOREVER. Like, beyond all the resets?
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:47 AM on September 23, 2017 [18 favorites]
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:47 AM on September 23, 2017 [18 favorites]
She went far beyond simple request fulfillment with Jason. She was trying to make him happy, not just doing what he asked.
posted by amtho at 5:38 AM on September 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by amtho at 5:38 AM on September 23, 2017 [1 favorite]
Wow, Michael Schur looks like a doughy Adam Scott.
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 7:38 AM on September 23, 2017
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 7:38 AM on September 23, 2017
I watched the first half of the first season, loved it, and spoiled myself for the rest of the season. I wasn't going to watch season 2 but I think I love every character harder than I did last season. Even the cast of demon actors.
posted by kimberussell at 8:33 AM on September 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by kimberussell at 8:33 AM on September 23, 2017 [3 favorites]
Grandiose theory: the demons bringing a Regular Janet into the Bad Place for this experiment will eventually lead to revolution and the collapse of demon control of the entire Bad Place. They only usually use Bad Janets for a reason; now they have a human sympathizer integrated into their entire mainframe.
More down to earth theory: at some point this season, the humans will find Michael's recording of the conversation with his boss from this episode, and they will blackmail him with it. They'll pretend to be super tortured for his boss and he won't actually torture them, or else they'll spill the beans and get him retired.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:44 AM on September 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
More down to earth theory: at some point this season, the humans will find Michael's recording of the conversation with his boss from this episode, and they will blackmail him with it. They'll pretend to be super tortured for his boss and he won't actually torture them, or else they'll spill the beans and get him retired.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:44 AM on September 23, 2017 [2 favorites]
I need help -- I've been reading all of the articles about all of the hints in Season One that we missed the first time around, but something still baffles me. One of the interviews with Schur says that they never have anything from Michael's point of view unless he's with one of the Four, so we don't see him "pretending" for nobody. Which was one of the super-exciting developments in this season premiere since we know everything now we can have scenes of Michael with his acting troupe of demons or whatever and Danson gets to play a whole other character.
But back in Season One, he legit freaks out about the sink hole, and asks Janet if she knows what's wrong -- and none of our Four are there. Michael's legit upset about the sink hole. Why is he still in character as Good Michael in that moment? What am I missing?
I feel like Jason....
posted by tzikeh at 8:37 PM on September 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
But back in Season One, he legit freaks out about the sink hole, and asks Janet if she knows what's wrong -- and none of our Four are there. Michael's legit upset about the sink hole. Why is he still in character as Good Michael in that moment? What am I missing?
I feel like Jason....
posted by tzikeh at 8:37 PM on September 23, 2017 [4 favorites]
To what extent does he need to stay in-character around Janet, though? She must think she's in The Good Place, right?
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 1:48 PM on September 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
posted by He Is Only The Imposter at 1:48 PM on September 24, 2017 [2 favorites]
She must think she's in The Good Place, right?
I haven't found anything that confirms or denies what Janet knows, and believe me, I've been looking. We know she's a "Good Place" Janet that Michael stole, so she may not be aware that this is The Bad Place, but at the same time she has said that she basically is the mainframe that runs everything, so....
And several lines of hers have indicated that she knows they're in The Bad Place, but why go along with Michael on this, then?
posted by tzikeh at 4:31 PM on September 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
I haven't found anything that confirms or denies what Janet knows, and believe me, I've been looking. We know she's a "Good Place" Janet that Michael stole, so she may not be aware that this is The Bad Place, but at the same time she has said that she basically is the mainframe that runs everything, so....
And several lines of hers have indicated that she knows they're in The Bad Place, but why go along with Michael on this, then?
posted by tzikeh at 4:31 PM on September 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
and none of our Four are there. Michael's legit upset about the sink hole. Why is he still in character as Good Michael in that moment? What am I missing?
But wasn't Tahani right around the corner in both scenes? Presumably Michael was acting up because he knew he was about to be observed.
posted by oh yeah! at 4:36 PM on September 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
But wasn't Tahani right around the corner in both scenes? Presumably Michael was acting up because he knew he was about to be observed.
posted by oh yeah! at 4:36 PM on September 24, 2017 [9 favorites]
And several lines of hers have indicated that she knows they're in The Bad Place, but why go along with Michael on this, then?
She's not actually sentient. She has no interests or feelings or objectives, other than to obey orders to within the set limits.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:51 PM on September 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
She's not actually sentient. She has no interests or feelings or objectives, other than to obey orders to within the set limits.
posted by His thoughts were red thoughts at 6:51 PM on September 24, 2017 [1 favorite]
and none of our Four are there. Michael's legit upset about the sink hole. Why is he still in character as Good Michael in that moment? What am I missing?
But wasn't Tahani right around the corner in both scenes? Presumably Michael was acting up because he knew he was about to be observed.
Yep. I watched for this on rewatch, and there were three times that Michael was alone and keeping up the pretense, and in each case, one of the Four was close enough by that he was doing it for them.
posted by Etrigan at 7:11 PM on September 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
But wasn't Tahani right around the corner in both scenes? Presumably Michael was acting up because he knew he was about to be observed.
Yep. I watched for this on rewatch, and there were three times that Michael was alone and keeping up the pretense, and in each case, one of the Four was close enough by that he was doing it for them.
posted by Etrigan at 7:11 PM on September 24, 2017 [6 favorites]
Maybe a version one Janet isn't sentient, but each restart improves her skills, and I think this changed by halfway through the season.
posted by jeather at 4:18 AM on September 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by jeather at 4:18 AM on September 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
Yep. I watched for this on rewatch, and there were three times that Michael was alone and keeping up the pretense, and in each case, one of the Four was close enough by that he was doing it for them.
Which three times?
posted by tzikeh at 7:23 AM on September 25, 2017
Which three times?
posted by tzikeh at 7:23 AM on September 25, 2017
I noticed it twice in episode 5 - when Michael & Janet were at the sinkhole and Tahani entered the scene, and when Michael was looking at the display screen in his office with Janet and Tahani came in and looked up her neighborhood ranking.
posted by oh yeah! at 9:04 AM on September 25, 2017
posted by oh yeah! at 9:04 AM on September 25, 2017
I don't remember exactly where they all were, but there was one where Eleanor walked up on Michael when he looked like he was alone for much of the scene. I seem to recall her watching him through an ajar door?
posted by Etrigan at 11:22 AM on September 25, 2017
posted by Etrigan at 11:22 AM on September 25, 2017
Just want to say I am HERE for debating Janet's sentience!
If Michael's back story that we were shown at the end of Season 1 is a true representation, then he is essentially middle management in Hell. He sits at a desk doing wrote work while people above him make real decisions and the people below him (the demonfolk he's using to populate his torture chamber) do essentially assembly line torture. The Afterlife (ie both Good and Bad Places) seems based on a Miltonian construction where all the non-humans were created with a specific purpose. Jason's soulmate loves fire because he was designed to torture people with fire. Eleanor's soulmate is annoyed that he isn't twisting people since that's his normal role.
So Michael is a Minion who is bored with The Way Things Are Done, and wants to do things differently for variety's sake. But nothing about the system in which he's operating is designed to do that.
Meta-commentary aside, this was easily as entertaining as anything from the first season, and Janet, Eleanor, and Tahani in particular made me laugh out loud several times. The high point for me was Eleanor trying to figure out if Chidi was hitting on her and being pretty into it.
posted by dry white toast at 12:08 PM on September 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
If Michael's back story that we were shown at the end of Season 1 is a true representation, then he is essentially middle management in Hell. He sits at a desk doing wrote work while people above him make real decisions and the people below him (the demonfolk he's using to populate his torture chamber) do essentially assembly line torture. The Afterlife (ie both Good and Bad Places) seems based on a Miltonian construction where all the non-humans were created with a specific purpose. Jason's soulmate loves fire because he was designed to torture people with fire. Eleanor's soulmate is annoyed that he isn't twisting people since that's his normal role.
So Michael is a Minion who is bored with The Way Things Are Done, and wants to do things differently for variety's sake. But nothing about the system in which he's operating is designed to do that.
Meta-commentary aside, this was easily as entertaining as anything from the first season, and Janet, Eleanor, and Tahani in particular made me laugh out loud several times. The high point for me was Eleanor trying to figure out if Chidi was hitting on her and being pretty into it.
posted by dry white toast at 12:08 PM on September 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
If Michael's back story that we were shown at the end of Season 1 is a true representation, then he is essentially middle management in Hell.
I believe this is the kind of show where the camera does not lie. They've gone to great lengths to show us Michael acting in certain ways, and then have those be true, even if at the time we thought they were perhaps something else. Examples being him playing the part when he thinks someone else could hear him, and then the audience just doesn't get to see when he finishes playing the part. At least, not until the end of season one.
So with that in mind I think we have to assume that the scenes of middle-management are true. There's not an outside party that those scenes are being shown to, just us the viewers. I think the showrunners know that if they were lying about that scene then we're not going to trust anything else about the show and will be less inclined watch it if it's all lies.
If all of the above is true, then I do have one question: is Michael being lied to? This would tie in neatly with the idea that perhaps he is the one that's in hell.
Unrelated, I would like to advance the idea that Janet is indeed more or less omniscient, but has no incentive or motive to do anything other then answer questions. I think if someone were to ask her, "is this really the Good Place?" she would have no choice but to answer that it is not. But who would think to question the basic premise that they were given upon arrival?
posted by komara at 2:04 PM on September 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
I believe this is the kind of show where the camera does not lie. They've gone to great lengths to show us Michael acting in certain ways, and then have those be true, even if at the time we thought they were perhaps something else. Examples being him playing the part when he thinks someone else could hear him, and then the audience just doesn't get to see when he finishes playing the part. At least, not until the end of season one.
So with that in mind I think we have to assume that the scenes of middle-management are true. There's not an outside party that those scenes are being shown to, just us the viewers. I think the showrunners know that if they were lying about that scene then we're not going to trust anything else about the show and will be less inclined watch it if it's all lies.
If all of the above is true, then I do have one question: is Michael being lied to? This would tie in neatly with the idea that perhaps he is the one that's in hell.
Unrelated, I would like to advance the idea that Janet is indeed more or less omniscient, but has no incentive or motive to do anything other then answer questions. I think if someone were to ask her, "is this really the Good Place?" she would have no choice but to answer that it is not. But who would think to question the basic premise that they were given upon arrival?
posted by komara at 2:04 PM on September 25, 2017 [5 favorites]
I went back and watched the last three episodes of the first season, and it feels like Janet did become at least somewhat sentient after her first re-boot. She didn't marry Jason because she was asked to, she made the choice to, even if she wasn't in "love" with him the way people experience that emotion.
She was taking initiative that went beyond just her role as the Microsoft Paperclip of the Afterlife.
posted by dry white toast at 6:33 PM on September 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
She was taking initiative that went beyond just her role as the Microsoft Paperclip of the Afterlife.
posted by dry white toast at 6:33 PM on September 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
What if...existence is meaningless without struggle, the kind of struggle that's difficult but not quite impossible, and they really _are_ in the good place?
posted by amtho at 7:42 PM on September 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
posted by amtho at 7:42 PM on September 25, 2017 [6 favorites]
Loving “Real Eleanor”/Denise’s diva scene!
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:56 PM on September 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
posted by ThePinkSuperhero at 7:56 PM on September 25, 2017 [1 favorite]
Boundless void! Boundless void!
posted by mochapickle at 10:13 PM on September 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
posted by mochapickle at 10:13 PM on September 25, 2017 [3 favorites]
So, super late catching up on the episode, but since we're all down here way at the bottom of the thread, here's a pet theory I've been toying with.
1) The Good Place and the Bad Place are real, and even somewhat irritating but not awful people like Tahani and Chidi get sent there, forever.
2) According to the S1 finale, Janet is a real Good Place Janet that Michael "stole".
3) In this episode, it seems clear to me that part of the reason things don't go according to plan for Michael is that our four humans really have grown and changed over the course of V. 1.0. Chidi is able to make a decision. Elanor's inclined to stay sober so she can focus better, even before she begins to suspect the other party guests are trying to get her drunk. Jason seems instantly drawn to Janet (and she to him).
These changes have persisted despite the reboot that wiped their memories -- they're changes to their souls, not their minds. But the whole system of eternal damnation/salvation is predicated on the souls remaining in stasis --- on earth the possibility of growth and change exists, but once you're dead that's foreclosed. You are who you are, you deserve what you deserve, and in The Good Place you will always be happy because all your possible desires are known and satisfied. (And vice versa for The Bad Place.)
Michael's experiment, however, seems to be shaking up the system. He has selected his subjects in the belief that their inherent natures will always fundamentally conflict in certain ways, thus guaranteeing their eternal torment. But instead the experiment has revealed that it is possible for those natures to change, even after death. Perhaps this possibility was foreseen by the true architects of the Good Place, and is why they allowed a Good Janet to be stolen. Because they want to see the results of this experiment, too.
posted by Diablevert at 6:48 AM on September 26, 2017 [40 favorites]
1) The Good Place and the Bad Place are real, and even somewhat irritating but not awful people like Tahani and Chidi get sent there, forever.
2) According to the S1 finale, Janet is a real Good Place Janet that Michael "stole".
3) In this episode, it seems clear to me that part of the reason things don't go according to plan for Michael is that our four humans really have grown and changed over the course of V. 1.0. Chidi is able to make a decision. Elanor's inclined to stay sober so she can focus better, even before she begins to suspect the other party guests are trying to get her drunk. Jason seems instantly drawn to Janet (and she to him).
These changes have persisted despite the reboot that wiped their memories -- they're changes to their souls, not their minds. But the whole system of eternal damnation/salvation is predicated on the souls remaining in stasis --- on earth the possibility of growth and change exists, but once you're dead that's foreclosed. You are who you are, you deserve what you deserve, and in The Good Place you will always be happy because all your possible desires are known and satisfied. (And vice versa for The Bad Place.)
Michael's experiment, however, seems to be shaking up the system. He has selected his subjects in the belief that their inherent natures will always fundamentally conflict in certain ways, thus guaranteeing their eternal torment. But instead the experiment has revealed that it is possible for those natures to change, even after death. Perhaps this possibility was foreseen by the true architects of the Good Place, and is why they allowed a Good Janet to be stolen. Because they want to see the results of this experiment, too.
posted by Diablevert at 6:48 AM on September 26, 2017 [40 favorites]
It seems like both Chidi and Tahani could have understood much more quickly than Eleanor and Jason that they were in the wrong place. If Eleanor hadn't been given the note, I suspect Tahani would be the first to crack and discover the truth. Chidi is too polite and self-effacing to believe he's being deliberately tortured, but Tahani would eventually recognise torture by a thousand tiny cuts (especially the self-portrait of her sister in pride of place and her soulmate's fanboy reaction).
Nah. Since Chidi and Tahani always believe they are there on their own merits, they're the least likely to question it. Jason can maybe hit on that kind of wisdom every once in a while, but that's generally where Eleanor lives.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:03 PM on October 2, 2017
Nah. Since Chidi and Tahani always believe they are there on their own merits, they're the least likely to question it. Jason can maybe hit on that kind of wisdom every once in a while, but that's generally where Eleanor lives.
posted by Navelgazer at 10:03 PM on October 2, 2017
This was a really great episode, but I'm really disappointed they took it to "Chidi and Eleanor are in loooooove" instead of "they are really great friends because opposite gender intimate friendships are real and possible!" It seemed after the "both of us don't want you Chidi" episode that they were going to stick with that, so I'm kind of bleh about this new development.
posted by corb at 8:43 AM on October 11, 2017 [5 favorites]
posted by corb at 8:43 AM on October 11, 2017 [5 favorites]
I hear you, corb, but that storyline is worth it to me for Mindy's dry delivery of, "Ohhhh nooo, that's my only copy" when Eleanor took the sex tape. I cackled.
posted by Aquifer at 10:44 AM on October 11, 2017 [10 favorites]
posted by Aquifer at 10:44 AM on October 11, 2017 [10 favorites]
My almost-certainly-wrong theory is that Michael is an agent of the Good Place working undercover in the bad place. No one believes that the psychological frustrations Michael is working on are nearly as bad as the tortures happening elsewhere. Michael can’t believe that. He is trying to spare a few people from horrific torment, keep a bunch of demons occupied on pointless acting tasks, and possibly set the groundwork for imploding the whole Bad Place system. He didn’t really steal Janet. His superior at the Good Place gave Janet to him to help him with this task. He can also use her in walkie-talkie mode to get a message back to the Good Place if he needs to be rescued from being retired. He’s still acting. He is a Good Place agent pretending to be a Bad Place architect pretending to be a Good Place architect.
But I’m probably wrong.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:10 AM on October 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
But I’m probably wrong.
posted by Pater Aletheias at 7:10 AM on October 13, 2017 [8 favorites]
My almost-certainly-wrong theory is that Michael is an agent of the Good Place working undercover in the bad place.
Michael is indeed the name of an archangel after all. Crucial to setting up the initial fake-out from last season, but there's no reason he couldn't actually be the archangel Michael on a secret undercover mission to undermine the whole premise of The Bad Place.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:47 AM on September 21, 2018
Michael is indeed the name of an archangel after all. Crucial to setting up the initial fake-out from last season, but there's no reason he couldn't actually be the archangel Michael on a secret undercover mission to undermine the whole premise of The Bad Place.
posted by tobascodagama at 7:47 AM on September 21, 2018
there's no reason he couldn't actually be the archangel Michael on a secret undercover mission to undermine the whole premise of The Bad Place.
IF that's true, I think it's crucial to the narrative of the show that he doesn't know it (ie, he's been mindwiped just like the humans have been). Otherwise a lot of the things I like about this show would be undermined.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:48 AM on September 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
IF that's true, I think it's crucial to the narrative of the show that he doesn't know it (ie, he's been mindwiped just like the humans have been). Otherwise a lot of the things I like about this show would be undermined.
posted by showbiz_liz at 10:48 AM on September 21, 2018 [4 favorites]
Michael is indeed the name of an archangel after all.
And that's who Schur based his character on. The show seems totally on board with there being a fundamental injustice in the weighing of souls and punishing people for eternity. I just hope that when Amy Poehler guest stars as God (my dream), we find out that Michael was an unwitting agent to prepare souls for the Good Place.
posted by gladly at 1:07 PM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
And that's who Schur based his character on. The show seems totally on board with there being a fundamental injustice in the weighing of souls and punishing people for eternity. I just hope that when Amy Poehler guest stars as God (my dream), we find out that Michael was an unwitting agent to prepare souls for the Good Place.
posted by gladly at 1:07 PM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
Maybe the ultimate endgame of the show is to reboot the entire universe from the beginning of time, with fairer rules this time around.
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:54 PM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
posted by showbiz_liz at 1:54 PM on September 21, 2018 [1 favorite]
It just occurred to me that Jason in this episode is the only character who ever talks about missing someone from his life on Earth (Pillboi). The other three didn't have any relationships close enough to be sad about. (In Chapter 1, Eleanor wondered aloud whether anyone even cares that she's dead.)
One of the many questions about how the real Good Place works (if it does) is how good people could be happy knowing they would never see their friends and family again, not to mention knowing those friends and family are probably being tortured for eternity. The system in the fake Good Place only works for our four humans because they're (mostly) too self-centered to care.
posted by mbrubeck at 5:31 PM on October 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
One of the many questions about how the real Good Place works (if it does) is how good people could be happy knowing they would never see their friends and family again, not to mention knowing those friends and family are probably being tortured for eternity. The system in the fake Good Place only works for our four humans because they're (mostly) too self-centered to care.
posted by mbrubeck at 5:31 PM on October 23, 2018 [3 favorites]
I've mentioned it elsewhere, but Hawaiian pizza feels like the perfect actually-the-Bad-Place tell. What monster would ruin pizza — perhaps nature's only truly perfect food — by adding HAM?
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:01 PM on March 4, 2019
posted by DoctorFedora at 11:01 PM on March 4, 2019
Now that I've seen the premieres for every season of The Good Place, I have to say this is the best one.
posted by Monochrome at 10:13 AM on September 28, 2019
posted by Monochrome at 10:13 AM on September 28, 2019
Coming to this show way late, but bear with me:
We can't trust anything Michael says whens he's 'in character', but in the season two premiere when he says to Jason "This is Janet, she can get you literally anything you want. All you have to do is ask.", Janet nods in agreement.
What should they ask her for?
The Four Souls learned about the train before they learned they weren't in the Good Place. So they hitched a ride to the Medium place, when I think they might have been able to hitch a ride to the Good Place after all. All they had to do was ask.
Sarte's No Exit is obviously an influence, but I suspect also Faust (Well, Goethe's version anyways). In both cases, the damned can enter heaven, but only after striving and -- crucially -- getting over themselves. By the end of season one, none of the Four believe they will be let into the Good Place, and their own belief that they do not deserve better is what imprisons them. The overly rigid justice of points espoused by Michael is not the mechanism of the afterlife, and Janet is basically God: omnicient, omnipowerful, loves humanity and is dedicated to their well being. If the showrunners wish, its possible Janet is gnostic -- a shattered God that must be recombined to set things right.
posted by pwnguin at 10:58 PM on February 6
We can't trust anything Michael says whens he's 'in character', but in the season two premiere when he says to Jason "This is Janet, she can get you literally anything you want. All you have to do is ask.", Janet nods in agreement.
What should they ask her for?
The Four Souls learned about the train before they learned they weren't in the Good Place. So they hitched a ride to the Medium place, when I think they might have been able to hitch a ride to the Good Place after all. All they had to do was ask.
Sarte's No Exit is obviously an influence, but I suspect also Faust (Well, Goethe's version anyways). In both cases, the damned can enter heaven, but only after striving and -- crucially -- getting over themselves. By the end of season one, none of the Four believe they will be let into the Good Place, and their own belief that they do not deserve better is what imprisons them. The overly rigid justice of points espoused by Michael is not the mechanism of the afterlife, and Janet is basically God: omnicient, omnipowerful, loves humanity and is dedicated to their well being. If the showrunners wish, its possible Janet is gnostic -- a shattered God that must be recombined to set things right.
posted by pwnguin at 10:58 PM on February 6
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posted by whuppy at 8:16 PM on September 20, 2017 [29 favorites]