Arrow: The Brave and the Bold
December 4, 2014 6:34 PM - Season 3, Episode 8 - Subscribe
Part 2 of the Flash/Arrow crossover. Part 1 is The Flash: Flash vs. Arrow, in which Oliver & the team visited the Flash to ask for S.T.A.R. Labs' assistance in analyzing a boomerang used as a murder weapon. Now, back in Starling City, tracking the boomerang winds up putting Arrow into the middle of an A.R.G.U.S. operation.
As the Arrow team considers how to proceed, Barry, Caitlin and Cisco turn up in Starling City unexpectedly. Oliver is reluctant to accept their help, but it turns out the man wieldng the boomerangs is a former A.R.G.U.S. operative with a grudge against Layla Michaels, John Diggle's . . . . . well, not wife, as we are reminded more than once.
Oliver and Barry clash over Oliver's methods for finding Captain Boomerang (methods we see Oliver learning in Hong Kong under the tutelage of Amanda Waller), and everyone considers how two heroes can have very different lives.
As the Arrow team considers how to proceed, Barry, Caitlin and Cisco turn up in Starling City unexpectedly. Oliver is reluctant to accept their help, but it turns out the man wieldng the boomerangs is a former A.R.G.U.S. operative with a grudge against Layla Michaels, John Diggle's . . . . . well, not wife, as we are reminded more than once.
Oliver and Barry clash over Oliver's methods for finding Captain Boomerang (methods we see Oliver learning in Hong Kong under the tutelage of Amanda Waller), and everyone considers how two heroes can have very different lives.
It was a fun episode, but I think I preferred the "dark" characters of Arrow being inserted into the bright and shiny Flash universe over this. "Flash vs. Arrow" clicked. This sort of clunked.
And yeah, the boomerang action was pretty doofy. Although to be fair it's a tough concept to sell.
posted by brundlefly at 9:15 PM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
And yeah, the boomerang action was pretty doofy. Although to be fair it's a tough concept to sell.
posted by brundlefly at 9:15 PM on December 4, 2014 [2 favorites]
Man, the writers really lampshaded the tonal differences between The Flash and Arrow in this one, huh?
They also kind of clumsily hammered on the differences between Caitlin and Felicity. This is a computer thing so we will need FELICITY, while this requires a doctor, so we will need CAITLIN. See? One does 'puters and the other does medicine or something, so the one totally isn't a recycled version of the other.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:06 PM on December 4, 2014
They also kind of clumsily hammered on the differences between Caitlin and Felicity. This is a computer thing so we will need FELICITY, while this requires a doctor, so we will need CAITLIN. See? One does 'puters and the other does medicine or something, so the one totally isn't a recycled version of the other.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 10:06 PM on December 4, 2014
Maybe he'll escape and then be like, lesson learned, boomerangs are stupid and I'm going to menace people with guns from now on. But people will still call him Captain Boomerang which will enrage him.
posted by vogon_poet at 3:34 PM on December 5, 2014
posted by vogon_poet at 3:34 PM on December 5, 2014
Or at least start using them to better-inform the behavior of current Oliver.
IMO, that's kind of the only thing the flashbacks have been doing this season, and pretty heavy-handedly at that. As an actual second story-line the whole Hong Kong thing has been pretty unexciting and not very emotionally involving.
For all that I like 'The Flash' show's sense of goofy enthusiasm, I do like that these crossover episodes made it clear to Barry and the rest of his team that what they're doing can have more serious consequences. Wells has been able to pull the wool over their eyes pretty easily (including the part about keeping the meta-human baddies locked away in a secret prison) because Barry, Cisco, and Caitlin are still kind of "Wheeeeeee!!!!" about the whole situation.
We'll see if these lessons about consequences sink in.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:03 PM on December 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
IMO, that's kind of the only thing the flashbacks have been doing this season, and pretty heavy-handedly at that. As an actual second story-line the whole Hong Kong thing has been pretty unexciting and not very emotionally involving.
For all that I like 'The Flash' show's sense of goofy enthusiasm, I do like that these crossover episodes made it clear to Barry and the rest of his team that what they're doing can have more serious consequences. Wells has been able to pull the wool over their eyes pretty easily (including the part about keeping the meta-human baddies locked away in a secret prison) because Barry, Cisco, and Caitlin are still kind of "Wheeeeeee!!!!" about the whole situation.
We'll see if these lessons about consequences sink in.
posted by soundguy99 at 4:03 PM on December 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
The Flash seemed much cooler on this show than he does on his own, and I realized after a while that was because he never has to be Barry Allen. Barry's life kind of blows. Why would he even make the effort to be Barry after a while? It seems like a drag, and certainly Wells can afford to supply him with lodging, STAR Labs T-shirts, and limitless tacos.
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:13 PM on December 5, 2014
posted by kittens for breakfast at 4:13 PM on December 5, 2014
Barry slouching in that chair, mask off and eating sushi was the most I've liked him. He seemed at ease for once, even when he was acting sheepish about revealing his identity.
posted by brundlefly at 4:56 PM on December 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by brundlefly at 4:56 PM on December 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
DO NOT CARE
STILL DOING THE CLAPPY HANDS
(See: previous The Flash recap)
posted by Kitteh at 6:25 PM on December 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
STILL DOING THE CLAPPY HANDS
(See: previous The Flash recap)
posted by Kitteh at 6:25 PM on December 5, 2014 [2 favorites]
As an actual second story-line the whole Hong Kong thing has been pretty unexciting and not very emotionally involving.
Yeah, that's my take on Hong Kong. Getting off the island may have been necessary but it's a big mistake in terms of the flashback arc (not to mention that I never understand how the big blond white American is supposed to be anything but extremely noticeable in a city in Asia). I know it's still early and that we won't see the way the arc starts to tie together for about another couple of months, but this season's flashbacks haven't been as good so far.
Even with the silly boomerang I'm in the clappy hands camp overall though. And I did like seeing Barry reinforce Oliver's doubts about being a terrible murdering torturing hardass. Thanks, Barry!
posted by immlass at 4:42 PM on December 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
Yeah, that's my take on Hong Kong. Getting off the island may have been necessary but it's a big mistake in terms of the flashback arc (not to mention that I never understand how the big blond white American is supposed to be anything but extremely noticeable in a city in Asia). I know it's still early and that we won't see the way the arc starts to tie together for about another couple of months, but this season's flashbacks haven't been as good so far.
Even with the silly boomerang I'm in the clappy hands camp overall though. And I did like seeing Barry reinforce Oliver's doubts about being a terrible murdering torturing hardass. Thanks, Barry!
posted by immlass at 4:42 PM on December 6, 2014 [1 favorite]
I wish that Arrow would stop having a flashback subplot in EVERY. SINGLE. EPISODE.
We've had flashback episodes for Thea and Felicity this season. Would be nice to see more flashbacks for the other characters, Lost-style.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:52 AM on December 7, 2014
We've had flashback episodes for Thea and Felicity this season. Would be nice to see more flashbacks for the other characters, Lost-style.
posted by DevilsAdvocate at 8:52 AM on December 7, 2014
They also kind of clumsily hammered on the differences between Caitlin and Felicity. This is a computer thing so we will need FELICITY, while this requires a doctor, so we will need CAITLIN. See? One does 'puters and the other does medicine or something, so the one totally isn't a recycled version of the other.
Eh, I'm not totally sure I'm sold on this comparison, though it may be because I'm not totally caught up on The Flash--one of the few things I've really liked about the Flash episodes I've seen so far is Caitlin. The dedicated-to-their-job-to-the-point-of-cold*-off-putting-obsession scientist is almost always male, and the actress who plays her has done a very good job of balancing that portrayal with the character's inevitable tragic-backstory-granted vulnerability. Felicity, in contrast, is all heart.
*no pun intended
posted by kagredon at 3:27 PM on December 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
Eh, I'm not totally sure I'm sold on this comparison, though it may be because I'm not totally caught up on The Flash--one of the few things I've really liked about the Flash episodes I've seen so far is Caitlin. The dedicated-to-their-job-to-the-point-of-cold*-off-putting-obsession scientist is almost always male, and the actress who plays her has done a very good job of balancing that portrayal with the character's inevitable tragic-backstory-granted vulnerability. Felicity, in contrast, is all heart.
*no pun intended
posted by kagredon at 3:27 PM on December 7, 2014 [1 favorite]
The Flash on the salmon ladder made me laugh.
posted by homunculus at 5:45 PM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
posted by homunculus at 5:45 PM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Despite the stupid boomerang weaponry, I was of the clappy hands frame of mind about this episode too, which is nice because I haven't been enjoying much about this season so far.
Things I liked:
Barry as the moral conscience character in this episode. On most shows, it's a female character that acts the moral compass. Here instead we had Lyla and Waller as the ultra-cold pragmatists.
The running "we're not married" joke, and the predictable proposal and acceptance at the end (because I am a big sap).
"You can inspire people too. But not as The Arrow. Because that guy's a douche."
Captain Lance very obviously not giving a fuck whether Barry was hit bus or struck by lightning.
posted by creepygirl at 8:55 PM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
Things I liked:
Barry as the moral conscience character in this episode. On most shows, it's a female character that acts the moral compass. Here instead we had Lyla and Waller as the ultra-cold pragmatists.
The running "we're not married" joke, and the predictable proposal and acceptance at the end (because I am a big sap).
"You can inspire people too. But not as The Arrow. Because that guy's a douche."
Captain Lance very obviously not giving a fuck whether Barry was hit bus or struck by lightning.
posted by creepygirl at 8:55 PM on December 8, 2014 [3 favorites]
One final thought: They need to get a new location for the Arrowcave. It's been compromised by bad guys multiple times now.
posted by creepygirl at 7:43 AM on December 9, 2014
posted by creepygirl at 7:43 AM on December 9, 2014
I petitioned for Shepherd to acquire and use a Salmon Ladder for my prurient benefit. Request denied. Boooo.
posted by Kitteh at 7:57 AM on December 9, 2014
posted by Kitteh at 7:57 AM on December 9, 2014
Yeah, that's my take on Hong Kong. Getting off the island may have been necessary but it's a big mistake in terms of the flashback arc (not to mention that I never understand how the big blond white American is supposed to be anything but extremely noticeable in a city in Asia).
To be fair, it is Hong Kong. There's probably a decent number of British Caucasians running around who meet that description pretty well, not to mention visitors from other parts of Europe.
As hokey as it kind of was, I really enjoyed Barry calling Oliver out on his violent ways. Oliver's continual insistence, "My city is rougher and worse than yours, you HAVE to do this!" definitely seemed closer to an excuse than an explanation.
Nitpick issue: So Barry gives Felicity a ride and her clothes are set on fire. He does the same thing four times in a row, obviously running as fast as possibly can to get everyone in place with the bombs, but no one's clothes goes up in cinders?
Our villain also was from Spartacus, so it explains perhaps his casting for the close action boomerangs of death fight sequences, as he obviously has experience pulling off those types of scenes. As much as it's kind of silly to worry about boomerangs, we also have two characters who rely on bows and arrows as their main weapon of choice, so I wasn't personally really bothered that much by it all.
I hope we get more screen time with both Barry and Oliver in the future, but in measured doses. Don't ruin it with excess!
posted by Atreides at 2:26 PM on December 9, 2014
To be fair, it is Hong Kong. There's probably a decent number of British Caucasians running around who meet that description pretty well, not to mention visitors from other parts of Europe.
As hokey as it kind of was, I really enjoyed Barry calling Oliver out on his violent ways. Oliver's continual insistence, "My city is rougher and worse than yours, you HAVE to do this!" definitely seemed closer to an excuse than an explanation.
Nitpick issue: So Barry gives Felicity a ride and her clothes are set on fire. He does the same thing four times in a row, obviously running as fast as possibly can to get everyone in place with the bombs, but no one's clothes goes up in cinders?
Our villain also was from Spartacus, so it explains perhaps his casting for the close action boomerangs of death fight sequences, as he obviously has experience pulling off those types of scenes. As much as it's kind of silly to worry about boomerangs, we also have two characters who rely on bows and arrows as their main weapon of choice, so I wasn't personally really bothered that much by it all.
I hope we get more screen time with both Barry and Oliver in the future, but in measured doses. Don't ruin it with excess!
posted by Atreides at 2:26 PM on December 9, 2014
There's probably a decent number of British Caucasians running around who meet that description pretty well, not to mention visitors from other parts of Europe.
The fact that he's never noticed doing super seekrit ARGUS stuff while totally not being hidey or secretive at all is what busts my suspension of disbelief in the flashbacks.
posted by immlass at 3:38 PM on December 9, 2014
The fact that he's never noticed doing super seekrit ARGUS stuff while totally not being hidey or secretive at all is what busts my suspension of disbelief in the flashbacks.
posted by immlass at 3:38 PM on December 9, 2014
That's a better reason to find it irritating. I'm immediately drawn to the scene where he's the tall white guy, not-secretively, walking through a crowd of Asian folks a foot shorter than him while "following without being seen." That's a fair criticism.
posted by Atreides at 7:10 AM on December 10, 2014
posted by Atreides at 7:10 AM on December 10, 2014
They need to get a new location for the Arrowcave. It's been compromised by bad guys multiple times now.
Well yeah, and it's also in the basement of the club his sister owns, who doesn't know his secret identity and is, BTW, a budding villain.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:16 AM on December 10, 2014 [1 favorite]
Well yeah, and it's also in the basement of the club his sister owns, who doesn't know his secret identity and is, BTW, a budding villain.
posted by DirtyOldTown at 8:16 AM on December 10, 2014 [1 favorite]
So I watched this episode yesterday, after reading about the senate report on the CIA's use of torture all day. That made it fairly uncomfortable in parts. Particularly after Oliver shoots the guy through the hand, Barry says "You just couldn't resist, could you" and then Oliver kind of smirks? Ugh. So are we establishing that he actually enjoys shooting arrows into people as a goal in itself?
I can accept that Oliver sometimes shoots people while he's yelling at them, and it makes sense for this to be a point of contention between him and Barry, but that part really took that already questionable defense of torture going on and played it off with a sort of Isn't Oliver such a loveable scamp for engaging in and defending torture?
I didn't have a problem with shooting the guy's hand, since he was trying to throw a boomerang, and Oliver has never had qualms about injuring people in the service of his goals, even in his reformed state. It just really felt like the show came down on the side of torture, instead of letting Barry serve the role Tommy did in season one and actually getting Oliver to question the morality of his actions.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:02 AM on December 10, 2014
I can accept that Oliver sometimes shoots people while he's yelling at them, and it makes sense for this to be a point of contention between him and Barry, but that part really took that already questionable defense of torture going on and played it off with a sort of Isn't Oliver such a loveable scamp for engaging in and defending torture?
I didn't have a problem with shooting the guy's hand, since he was trying to throw a boomerang, and Oliver has never had qualms about injuring people in the service of his goals, even in his reformed state. It just really felt like the show came down on the side of torture, instead of letting Barry serve the role Tommy did in season one and actually getting Oliver to question the morality of his actions.
posted by vibratory manner of working at 10:02 AM on December 10, 2014
I don't think the Arrow is going full on "24" but it's definitely something we will have to observe in future episodes. Oliver's "motivational" use of his arrows against enemies has been a definite part of his Arrow persona, so did Barry's arguments about Oliver's humanity get through to him or not?
You do raise a good point, though, since Tommy was killed, has there really been any moral objectors to Oliver's behavior? Has the Arrow Team 100% signed on for whatever Oliver does? (Outside of dating decisions)
posted by Atreides at 11:29 AM on December 10, 2014
You do raise a good point, though, since Tommy was killed, has there really been any moral objectors to Oliver's behavior? Has the Arrow Team 100% signed on for whatever Oliver does? (Outside of dating decisions)
posted by Atreides at 11:29 AM on December 10, 2014
No one on Team Arrow agreed with Ollie's decision to spare Malcolm Merlyn a few episodes ago. Dunno if that counts as moral objections for you or not, but he's definitely had pushback from others who are ostensibly on his side.
posted by creepygirl at 3:42 PM on December 10, 2014 [2 favorites]
posted by creepygirl at 3:42 PM on December 10, 2014 [2 favorites]
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The gift exchange scene was unintentionally funny to me, too. "Really, a mannequin, for me?"
The flashback plot was just OK. Amanda Waller is pretty transparently manipulative, but I guess I can buy sort-of-still-dumb-playboy Oliver falling for it. I wish that Arrow would stop having a flashback subplot in EVERY. SINGLE. EPISODE. I get it, he has this checkered past that turned him into the Green Arrow, you don't have to cram it into every damn episode. Or at least start using them to better-inform the behavior of current Oliver. On that score this one was better than most.
posted by axiom at 7:04 PM on December 4, 2014 [4 favorites]